[abcusers] Help - getting ABC files on BarFly
Hello, I need your help for a problem I just can't solve myself. I need to test lots of ABC files on major applications, and I have no problem when it comes to Linux or Windows ones. I also run BarFly under the BasiliskII Macintosh emulator (incredible piece of software, BTW). I can't convince BarFly to open ABC files that it didn't create itself. I mean, I download ABC collections from the net, put them in /tmp, access that directory and see the ABC files as feature-less icons. I can't open these file with BarFly, Note Pad, anything. Moreover, copy and paste between Linux and the BasiliskII box doesn't work. Is there a way to load external ABC files in BarFly? Thanks in advance, Guido =8-) -- Guido Gonzato, Ph.D. guido . gonzato at univr . it - Linux System Manager Universita' di Verona (Italy), Facolta' di Scienze MM. FF. NN. Ca' Vignal II, Strada Le Grazie 15, 37134 Verona (Italy) Tel. +39 045 8027990; Fax +39 045 8027928 --- Timeas hominem unius libri To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [abcusers] About the choice of '!'
On Tue, 22 Jul 2003 16:27:39 +0100, Richard Robinson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: [snip] AB cd ef | fe dc BA | ! !trill! AB cd ef | fe dc BA |] complains Decoration not terminated and loses the last 2 bars. This seems rather counter-intuitive ? Stopping on blank is done in the abcm2ps version 3.7.0 I'm uploading just now. -- Ken ar c'hentañ | ** Breizh ha Linux atav! ** | http://moinejf.free.fr/ Pépé Jef| mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [abcusers] Re: continuations
On 22 Jul 2003 18:07:47 -0400, Laura Conrad [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: When I started using the -c option on abc2ps, I was quite surprised when some of my 8th notes were beamed, because only a newline separated them, whereas most of them were not, because I had deliberately put spaces between them. I thought that most people would assume that any whitespace, including newline, would cause the 8th's to not be beamed. abcm2ps adds a space at the end of every line (but not in continuation lines), as you asked me some time ago, but I am not happy with that: I would have use this fact (no space) to implement un-terminated beams at end (and start) of lines. BTW, the problem is more general: how may I have also beams crossing bars... -- Ken ar c'hentañ | ** Breizh ha Linux atav! ** | http://moinejf.free.fr/ Pépé Jef| mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [abcusers] multivoice linecontinuation
- Original Message - From: John Chambers [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, July 24, 2003 1:22 AM Subject: Re: [abcusers] multivoice linecontinuation Arent Storm writes: | Someone else wrote: | I used to use it and stopped because I always let the software | determine the line breaks for me. But if I were still expecting to | determine my own line breaks, I might still be doing it that way. | | It was the original syntax, wasn't it ? It worked before the inline | field [M:...] syntax was introduced, so there may be a lot of older | tunes out there that have it. | There *may* be, but are there? | I haven't seen any... It's hard to find. I searched around through my collection, including a lot of abc taken from assorted mailing lists, and I had trouble finding more that a handful of files with M: or K: inside the music, either in the clumsy old form or bracketed. Even in classical music, such changes aren't common. It's much more common to just keep the same meter or key, and draw bar lines or accidentals as you need them. People seem to dislike changing such settings unless the change is for a big chunk of the music. So we're talking about what is a somewhat rare usage. Not much abc will have to change if we change the software's behavior for continuation lines in this case. Of course, if you're one of the very few people who do this sort of thing a lot, you might be a bit annoyed ... I was guessing so too, especially where most abc-tunes seem to be rather simple short (as by nature history of abc) Thanks for searching Arent To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [abcusers] man
On Wed, 23 Jul 2003, Phil Taylor wrote: Convert all man pages to html, and use you're webbrowser to read them. er, how do I do that? I forgot to answer this part. Just do: man topic | man2html outfile If you dont have it yet, get man2html from: http://www.oac.uci.edu/indiv/ehood/man2html.html Groeten, Irwin Oppenheim [EMAIL PROTECTED] ~~~* Chazzanut Online: http://www.joods.nl/~chazzanut/ To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [abcusers] Help - getting ABC files on BarFly
Hi Guido, I need your help for a problem I just can't solve myself. I need to test lots of ABC files on major applications, and I have no problem when it comes to Linux or Windows ones. I also run BarFly under the BasiliskII Macintosh emulator (incredible piece of software, BTW). I can't convince BarFly to open ABC files that it didn't create itself. I mean, I download ABC collections from the net, put them in /tmp, access that directory and see the ABC files as feature-less icons. I can't open these file with BarFly, Note Pad, anything. Moreover, copy and paste between Linux and the BasiliskII box doesn't work. Is there a way to load external ABC files in BarFly? The classic MacOS does not use file extensions to identify files, instead there are two four-character fields associated with files, called the creator and file type signatures. The old version of BarFly can only open files of type TEXT. If you download your files using a Macintosh browser or ftp program running under BasiliskII it will set the file type automatically. Otherwise you need to use a utility program to change the file signatures. The traditional tool for this purpose is ResEdit, which you can download here: http://developer.apple.com/tools/legacy.html Start up ResEdit and cancel the file-opening dialog which it displays at first (since you don't want to edit the file's resource fork). Choose Get Info from the File menu and pick a file. In the resulting dialog, ignore everything but the Type and Creator fields. Set the Type to TEXT and the Creator to Bfly then save. ResEdit can only fix one file at a time, but there are several free or shareware programs which can operate on multiple files, of which the best known is FileTyper: http://dazuma.freeshell.org/filetyper/ The Carbon version of BarFly (because it has to live in a Unix environment) can open untyped files provided that they have a .abc or .txt extension, but you won't be able to run that under BasiliskII. Phil Taylor To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [abcusers] Chord length
We've had the suggestion a few times in the past that there be a way to give a length for bracketed chords, instead of repeating the length for each note. Thus [Ace]4 could be used for [A4c4e4]. In one discussion, we even had the suggestion of multiplying lengths if they are present in both places, so [A4ce]2 would be [A8c2e2]. I think it got lost within the discussion about having notes of differing lengths within chords. [Ace]4 doesn't have anything like the same semantical problems as [A4ce] so it might be better to discuss it separately. There shouldn't be any problem with any durational modifier being applied to a chord made up of same-length notes, should there? {[DGB][EAc]}(3:2:4[EGB]2[DFA]/{[EGB]}[EGc]/ for example. - Jack Campin: 11 Third Street, Newtongrange, Midlothian EH22 4PU; 0131 6604760 http://www.purr.demon.co.uk/jack * food intolerance data recipes, Mac logic fonts, Scots traditional music files, and my CD-ROM Embro, Embro. -- off-list mail to j-c rather than abc at this site, please -- To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: Solfa (Was: [abcusers] a very peculiar use of word alignment
[solfa] I'll try to locate a copy of the John Curwen reference through Inter-Library Loan. The local library does not have it, but it should be obtainable, now that I know exactly what to look for. You are quite likely to find one second-hand someday. I got an extra copy a year or so ago (for only 50p) and passed it on to somebody on the Scots-L list. They can fetch silly prices on EBay but there shouldn't be any need to use that. The local library does have a copy of the 20-volume version of New Grove Dictionary of Music; I'll check it tomorrow and see what it has to offer. It gives a comparative description of textual musical notations but doesn't have a full tutorial on any one of them. Probably not what you want. - Jack Campin: 11 Third Street, Newtongrange, Midlothian EH22 4PU; 0131 6604760 http://www.purr.demon.co.uk/jack * food intolerance data recipes, Mac logic fonts, Scots traditional music files, and my CD-ROM Embro, Embro. -- off-list mail to j-c rather than abc at this site, please -- To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [abcusers] About the choice of '!'
Let's see; if I read this correctly, then in the line: ...|!dead!trill!beef|... the !dead! would be the decoration, and the staff break would come in the middle of the bar. Right? Good point, but generally people who are using one system (who belong to the abc2win sect for ex., or in the opposite to the abcm2ps sect) won't use the other one. A couple of other people have given examples like this /.../ But if we include both in the standard, we can assume that people and programs will soon start using both, I thought with the new standard the ! as line break was supposed to be still supported for backward compatibility, and only tolerated, with advice to avoid to use both, or to use with care. I think in the abc files I made we can find both, but not in this kind of use : ...|!dead!trill!beef|... ___ Do You Yahoo!? -- Une adresse @yahoo.fr gratuite et en français ! Yahoo! Mail : http://fr.mail.yahoo.com To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [abcusers] Help - getting ABC files on BarFly
On Thu, 24 Jul 2003, Phil Taylor wrote: The classic MacOS does not use file extensions to identify files, instead there are two four-character fields associated with files, called the creator and file type signatures. The old version of BarFly can only open files of type TEXT. ResEdit can only fix one file at a time, but there are several free or shareware programs which can operate on multiple files Hmm, apparently UNIX is not the only OS that can be somewhat less than intuitive :-( Groeten, Irwin Oppenheim [EMAIL PROTECTED] ~~~* Chazzanut Online: http://www.joods.nl/~chazzanut/ To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [abcusers] Chord length
On Thu, 24 Jul 2003, Jack Campin wrote: I think it got lost within the discussion about having notes of differing lengths within chords. I think that problem is now solved with the introduction of -style voice overlay. Groeten, Irwin Oppenheim [EMAIL PROTECTED] ~~~* Chazzanut Online: http://www.joods.nl/~chazzanut/ To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [abcusers] multivoice linecontinuation
I searched around through my collection, [...] and I had trouble finding more that a handful of files with M: or K: inside the music, either in the clumsy old form or bracketed. I was guessing so too, especially where most abc-tunes seem to be rather simple short (as by nature history of abc) It's pretty common for even the simplest English folk-songs to vary in metre. I am not quite sure why this one needed to be transcribed that way but it was. Incidentally demonstrating a use of ` I hadn't thought of until I started this: simultaneously aligning ABC notes with the text while doing beaming in the modern way Bernard described here. X:1 T:Scarborough Fair O:Yorkshire C:Collected and arranged by Cecil Sharp %%Copyright: 1916, Oliver Ditson Company S:A Selection of Some Less Well Known Folk-Songs vol. 2 S:compiled by Cyril Winn S:London: Novello and Company, Limited Z:Jack Campin 2003 http://www.purr.demon.co.uk/jack/ M:6/8 L:1/8 Q:3/8=60 Andante P:ABABABC K:G Dorian P:A G`A```G F``GA |Bc`B A2 w:1.Where are you go-ing? To Scar- bor- ough Fair? w:3.Tell her to wash it in yon-* der well, w:5.Tell her to plough it with one*ram's horn, % z|G2 A (BA)G |G``B``c d2 w:Pars-ley, sage,* rose-ma-ry and thyme, w:Pars-ley, sage,* rose-ma-ry and thyme, w:Pars-ley, sage,* rose-ma-ry and thyme, % G|d2 d=e``d```c |dG```G (FG) w:Re- mem- ber me to abonn-y lass there,* w:Where water ne'er sprung nor adrop of rain fell,* w:And sow~it all o- ver with one pep-per corn,* % A |(Bc)```B A```A`G |[M:3/8]D``=E`^F |[M:6/8]G2z z3|| w:For once* she was a true lov-er ofmine. w:And she* shall be a true lov-er ofmine. w:And she* shall be a true lov-er ofmine. % P:B GA```G F``G``A|(Bc)`BA`A w:2.Tell her to make me a cam-* bric shirt,* w:4.Tell her to plough me an ac- re of land,* w:6.Tell her to reap it with~a sick-le of leath-er, % z|G2 A (BA)G |G``B``c d2 w:Pars-ley, sage,* rose-ma-ry and thyme, w:Pars-ley, sage,* rose-ma-ry and thyme, w:Pars-ley, sage,* rose-ma-ry and thyme, % G |d`d``d =edc |d2 G F`G w:With-out an-y need-le or thread work'd init, w:Be- tween* the sea and the salt seastrand,* w:And tie it all up with a tom- tit's feath-er, % A |(Bc) B A``A`G |[M:3/8]D``=E`^F |[M:6/8]G2z z3|| w:And she* shall be a truelov-er ofmine. w:And she* shall be a truelov-er ofmine. w:And she* shall be a truelov-er ofmine. % P:C GA```G FG``A |B```c``B A3| w:7.Tell her to gath-er it all in a sack, % G2 A (BA)G |G``B``c d2 w:Pars-ley, sage,* rose-ma-ry and thyme, % G |d```d``d =ed``c|d```G```G(FG) w:And car-ry it home on a but-ter-fly's back, % A |Bc```B A``A`G |[M:3/8]D``=E`^F |[M:6/8]G3-G2z|| w:And then she shall be a true lov-er ofmine. BarFly doesn't do too badly with that - its most serious problem is that it doesn't put the playing order anywhere in the staff notation display. It would look better in landscape format, but I can't tell BarFly to open up the staff spacing enough to stop the text colliding with the staves (5 per page is the minimum). The line numbers are an icky hack. There ought to be some way to integrate that with the P: playing order specification. - Jack Campin: 11 Third Street, Newtongrange, Midlothian EH22 4PU; 0131 6604760 http://www.purr.demon.co.uk/jack * food intolerance data recipes, Mac logic fonts, Scots traditional music files, and my CD-ROM Embro, Embro. -- off-list mail to j-c rather than abc at this site, please -- To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [abcusers] Help - getting ABC files on BarFly
on 7/24/03 5:25 AM, Phil Taylor wrote: The Carbon version of BarFly (because it has to live in a Unix environment) can open untyped files provided that they have a .abc or .txt extension, but you won't be able to run that under BasiliskII. But there is hope, even in Unix. You can set file type and creator using Mac OS X Terminal, if you have installed Apple's Developer Tools. Type this to find out the file's Type and Creator. /Developer/Tools/GetFileInfo /Users/thomaskeays/Desktop/McLennan.abc file: /Users/thomaskeays/Desktop/McLennan.abc type: TEXT creator: attributes: avbstclinmed created: 09/17/2001 18:56:58 modified: 09/17/2001 18:56:58 Note this file, because I downloaded it, doesn't have a creator associated with it. Do this /Developer/Tools/SetFile -c Bfly -t TEXT /Users/thomaskeays/Desktop/McLennan.abc where Bfly is the creator designator for BarFly. Run the previous command /Developer/Tools/GetFileInfo /Users/thomaskeays/Desktop/McLennan.abc file: /Users/thomaskeays/Desktop/McLennan.abc type: TEXT creator: Bfly attributes: avbstclinmed created: 09/17/2001 18:56:58 modified: 09/17/2001 18:56:58 To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [abcusers] Help - getting ABC files on BarFly
BTW, instead of /Developer/Tools/GetFileInfo /Users/thomaskeays/Desktop/McLennan.abc I could have typed /Developer/Tools/GetFileInfo ~/Desktop/McLennan.abc Because /Users/thomaskeays is my home directory. To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [abcusers] multivoice linecontinuation
Jack Campin wrote: The line numbers are an icky hack. There ought to be some way to integrate that with the P: playing order specification. That could get quite complicated. However, just putting the line number before the first word of the line would work OK if the program was smart enough to recognise it as a number and align it with the left of the staff instead of with the first note. There's a suggestion to that effect in the new standard and I'll probably do it for a future version. Phil Taylor To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [abcusers] Chord length
Jack Campin writes: | We've had the suggestion a few times in the past that there | be a way to give a length for bracketed chords, instead of | repeating the length for each note. Thus [Ace]4 could be | used for [A4c4e4]. In one discussion, we even had the | suggestion of multiplying lengths if they are present in | both places, so [A4ce]2 would be [A8c2e2]. | | I think it got lost within the discussion about having notes of | differing lengths within chords. [Ace]4 doesn't have anything | like the same semantical problems as [A4ce] so it might be | better to discuss it separately. You're probably right. Different note lengths like this don't work too well in staff notation, of course. I'd bet that most users wouldn't ever combine lengths this way. But I gave one example of a sort that you would see occasionally, with a held drone note that would translate into a white note head. | There shouldn't be any problem with any durational modifier being | applied to a chord made up of same-length notes, should there? | | {[DGB][EAc]}(3:2:4[EGB]2[DFA]/{[EGB]}[EGc]/ | | for example. Good example. I wish that chords as grace notes generally worked. No reason they shouldn't, of course, but how many programs actually implement them? Back to the topic at hand. That [EGB]2 in the middle shouldn't cause any parsing problems, for the same reason that just E2 shouldn't. A group of notes on one stem (also known as a chord ;-) should be syntactically very much like a single note. The general syntax of abc puts the length after a note, and applying this to a group of notes really shouldn't be a stretch. It would probably require a bit more code in a parser, but it would be a nice feature for people typing or reading abc. Some programs already half-implement this, because [AF][BG] works in at least some programs. It's curious that this would work, while the simpler [AF]3[BG] doesn't. I know this is true of abc2ps, because I use the former a lot, and I was a bit surprised when I discovered that the latter is an error. Maybe we should fire up another thread about the meaning of a chord with different-length notes. It would be handy if there were a standard way of deciding on the length of such a chord, in the sense of when the next note/chord starts. But that really should be a new topic, so as not to derail this one. To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [abcusers] Help - getting ABC files on BarFly
On Thu, Jul 24, 2003 at 12:29:34PM +0200, I. Oppenheim wrote: On Thu, 24 Jul 2003, Phil Taylor wrote: The classic MacOS does not use file extensions to identify files, instead there are two four-character fields associated with files, called the creator and file type signatures. The old version of BarFly can only open files of type TEXT. ResEdit can only fix one file at a time, but there are several free or shareware programs which can operate on multiple files Hmm, apparently UNIX is not the only OS that can be somewhat less than intuitive :-( They all have to be learnt. The only intuitive user interface is the nipple. -- Richard Robinson The whole plan hinged upon the natural curiosity of potatoes - S. Lem To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [abcusers] About the choice of '!'
On Thu, Jul 24, 2003 at 07:55:50AM +0200, Jean-Francois Moine wrote: On Tue, 22 Jul 2003 16:27:39 +0100, Richard Robinson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: [snip] AB cd ef | fe dc BA | ! !trill! AB cd ef | fe dc BA |] complains Decoration not terminated and loses the last 2 bars. This seems rather counter-intuitive ? Stopping on blank is done in the abcm2ps version 3.7.0 I'm uploading just now. Ah yes, thanks. -- Richard Robinson The whole plan hinged upon the natural curiosity of potatoes - S. Lem To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [abcusers] About the choice of '!'
On Thu, Jul 24, 2003 at 11:51:43AM +0200, Forgeot Eric wrote: Let's see; if I read this correctly, then in the line: ...|!dead!trill!beef|... the !dead! would be the decoration, and the staff break would come in the middle of the bar. Right? Good point, but generally people who are using one system (who belong to the abc2win sect for ex., or in the opposite to the abcm2ps sect) won't use the other one. A couple of other people have given examples like this /.../ But if we include both in the standard, we can assume that people and programs will soon start using both, I thought with the new standard the ! as line break was supposed to be still supported for backward compatibility, and only tolerated, with advice to avoid to use both, or to use with care. just one person's usage Now that ! staffbreak is available in abcm2ps, it's a reasonable assumption that I'll start using it, because it'll do good things to the legibility of my source, and because I can hope that most people will have access to programs that'll deal with it. I'm still wary of the !decorations!, because I'm not sure how portable they are. But, at the moment I have tr, D.C., etc, in guitar chords, as the only alternative, and that's not good either, so I may well start using !decorations!. In which case the 2 different ! constructions will be mixed together in the same line wherever they have to be. -- Richard Robinson The whole plan hinged upon the natural curiosity of potatoes - S. Lem To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [abcusers] Chord length
On Thu, Jul 24, 2003 at 01:53:00AM +, John Chambers wrote: We've had the suggestion a few times in the past that there be a way to give a length for bracketed chords, instead of repeating the length for each note. Thus [Ace]4 could be used for [A4c4e4]. In one discussion, we even had the suggestion of multiplying lengths if they are present in both places, so [A4ce]2 would be [A8c2e2]. This is something that's obviously not logically necessary. But it makes sense, fits in with the overall abc syntax, and would simplify typing for a lot of people. I don't have a strong opinion on this one, though I'd certainly use it if it were available. But I've had a few messages recently asking what ever became of the idea. Like you, I don't have very strong opinions here, it's not a thing I've found a huge need for. But uses like [A4ce]2 would seem to be fairly clear to understand, convenient to type, and consistent with the rest of the language; it's a thing I'd try if I needed to express such a thing. -- Richard Robinson The whole plan hinged upon the natural curiosity of potatoes - S. Lem To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
[abcusers] Version 2.0.0 voice overlay and lyrics
I have a question/suggestion about the new 2.0.0 standard. (Forgive me if this topic has been covered recently; I'm just back from a European choral tour, and I couldn't keep up with all the discussion over laptop dialup.) As someone primarily interested in typesetting choral music, I was very interested in the voice overlay capability with the '' syntax that emerged in abcm2ps some time ago. Many times in choral music we will have a vocal line splitting into two or three lines for only a few measures here and there, and abc shouldn't require defining a whole different voice for just those few measures. I did not see any mention of this capability in the new 2.0.0 standard, however. Maybe I missed it? Furthermore, it is not uncommon that when a vocal line temporarily splits into subvoices, that the pronounciation of lyrics in each of the subvoices will use slightly different rhythms. The '' character is not currently defined as a separator character in a lyric specification. Is it possible to define the '' for lyrics, in a manner similar to the note voice overlay, to generate a retrace back to the previous bar line, and allow multiple passes of lyrics through a bar that would be lined up with the multiple voice overlays? For each pass through the bar, the successive lines of lyrics would have to be offset vertically like what is done with successive verses. John To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [abcusers] About the choice of '!'
On Thu, 24 Jul 2003, Richard Robinson wrote: In which case the 2 different ! constructions will be mixed together in the same line wherever they have to be. This is what the new standard-in-development has to say about it: line breaking To force a line break at all times, a star (*) can be used. The star can be inserted everywhere, where a note group could. Deprecated line breaking The abc2win program used a `!' character to force line breaks, as is currently supported with the * operator (see section Line breaking). The abc2win usage obviously conflicts with the !...! style notation for musical symbols (see section Musical symbols). To support both abc2win legacy code, and current ABC, the following algorithm is proposed: When encountering a !, scan forward. If you find any of |[:], a space, or the end of line, it is a line break. Otherwise, it marks the beginning of a musical symbol. Users should avoid using ! line breaks together with !...! symbols. Groeten, Irwin Oppenheim [EMAIL PROTECTED] ~~~* Chazzanut Online: http://www.joods.nl/~chazzanut/ To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [abcusers] Version 2.0.0 voice overlay and lyrics
On Thu, 24 Jul 2003, John Fattaruso wrote: As someone primarily interested in typesetting choral music, I was very interested in the voice overlay capability with the '' syntax that emerged in abcm2ps some time ago. I did not see any mention of this capability in the new 2.0.0 standard, however. Maybe I missed it? This is what the new revision of 2.0 will say about it: Voice overlay The operator may be used to temporarily overlay several voices within one measure. The operator separates these voices from each other. Example: A2 E2 G2 A2|A B c d e f g a A A A A A A A A A G F E D C B, A,|] Groeten, Irwin Oppenheim [EMAIL PROTECTED] ~~~* Chazzanut Online: http://www.joods.nl/~chazzanut/ To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [abcusers] Chord length - waaaah!
In a message dated 7/24/03 094307, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Thus [Ace]4 could be used for [A4c4e4]. Heavy ABC User* cries plaintively: Could we at least get this one in and worry about the chords containing different note lengths (can't recall when I've run across this) at some other time? * Parse this as [Heavy ABC] [User], not [Heavy][ABC User] - I've been Atkinsing for past month. BB To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [abcusers] Chord length
In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], Richard Robinson [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes On Thu, Jul 24, 2003 at 01:53:00AM +, John Chambers wrote: We've had the suggestion a few times in the past that there be a way to give a length for bracketed chords, instead of repeating the length for each note. Thus [Ace]4 could be used for [A4c4e4]. In one discussion, we even had the suggestion of multiplying lengths if they are present in both places, so [A4ce]2 would be [A8c2e2]. This is something that's obviously not logically necessary. But it makes sense, fits in with the overall abc syntax, and would simplify typing for a lot of people. I don't have a strong opinion on this one, though I'd certainly use it if it were available. But I've had a few messages recently asking what ever became of the idea. Like you, I don't have very strong opinions here, it's not a thing I've found a huge need for. But uses like [A4ce]2 would seem to be fairly clear to understand, convenient to type, and consistent with the rest of the language; it's a thing I'd try if I needed to express such a thing. But what does it MEAN in notation terms? You are not allowed to have different length notes on the same stem in standard notation, so the [A4bc] would itself have to mean A4 at stem down and [bc] at stems up. Is this what's intended? You only have stems up and down if you have 2 parts on the 1 stave, and this does not fit in with abc anyway in terms of [] notation. Unless I'm not versatile enough, it seems to me that a passage such as Dotted Half A Quarter A --- stems up Half F Half F--- stems down cannot be notated in abc as [] notation. Bernard Hill Braeburn Software Author of Music Publisher system Music Software written by musicians for musicians http://www.braeburn.co.uk Selkirk, Scotland To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [abcusers] Version 2.0.0 voice overlay and lyrics
In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], I. Oppenheim [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes On Thu, 24 Jul 2003, John Fattaruso wrote: As someone primarily interested in typesetting choral music, I was very interested in the voice overlay capability with the '' syntax that emerged in abcm2ps some time ago. I did not see any mention of this capability in the new 2.0.0 standard, however. Maybe I missed it? This is what the new revision of 2.0 will say about it: Voice overlay The operator may be used to temporarily overlay several voices within one measure. The operator separates these voices from each other. Example: A2 E2 G2 A2|A B c d e f g a A A A A A A A A A G F E D C B, A,|] So what does that mean? Bernard Hill Braeburn Software Author of Music Publisher system Music Software written by musicians for musicians http://www.braeburn.co.uk Selkirk, Scotland To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [abcusers] About the choice of '!'
On Thu, Jul 24, 2003 at 05:00:05PM +0200, I. Oppenheim wrote: On Thu, 24 Jul 2003, Richard Robinson wrote: In which case the 2 different ! constructions will be mixed together in the same line wherever they have to be. This is what the new standard-in-development has to say about it: line breaking To force a line break at all times, a star (*) can be used. The star can be inserted everywhere, where a note group could. Then I'm confused. I just had a look at http://abcplus.sourceforge.net/abc2-draft.html and a search for line break finds I cannot decide whether `!' should be included in ABC. Before it is, it should be accepted by more applications - and users. The only reference to * is as a blank syllable, in lyrics. Also, it doesn't cause a staff break in any software I have the use of. -- Richard Robinson The whole plan hinged upon the natural curiosity of potatoes - S. Lem To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [abcusers] About the choice of '!'
Richard Robinson wrote: Now that ! staffbreak is available in abcm2ps, it's a reasonable assumption that I'll start using it, because it'll do good things to the legibility of my source, and because I can hope that most people will have access to programs that'll deal with it. I'm still wary of the !decorations!, because I'm not sure how portable they are. But, at the moment I have tr, D.C., etc, in guitar chords, as the only alternative, and that's not good either, so I may well start using !decorations!. In which case the 2 different ! constructions will be mixed together in the same line wherever they have to be. One thing that we have to look out for here is that abc2win not only puts linebreaks where marked by a !, but also ignores all other linebreaks, whether or not the line is continued. I don't know if this is what abcm2ps does. BarFly can now (optionally) emulate abc2win in this respect. So, I think that the rule should be that if you use a ! to mean a linebreak anywhere you should be careful to put ! at the end of every line where you want a linebreak as well. Phil Taylor To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [abcusers] Version 2.0.0 voice overlay and lyrics
A B c d e f g a A A A A A A A A A G F E D C B, A, So what does that mean? Please look here: http://www.joods.nl/~chazzanut/abc/split.html Irwin To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [abcusers] About the choice of '!'
On Thu, 24 Jul 2003, Richard Robinson wrote: Then I'm confused. I just had a look at http://abcplus.sourceforge.net/abc2-draft.html This was the first revision of the draft standard. We're now working on the second revision of it, soon to be released. Groeten, Irwin Oppenheim [EMAIL PROTECTED] ~~~* Chazzanut Online: http://www.joods.nl/~chazzanut/ To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [abcusers] Version 2.0.0 voice overlay and lyrics
Bernard Hill wrote: Voice overlay The operator may be used to temporarily overlay several voices within one measure. The operator separates these voices from each other. Example: A2 E2 G2 A2|A B c d e f g a A A A A A A A A A G F E D C B, A,|] So what does that mean? abcm2ps is the only program which has implemented this, so probably only Jef can give a definitive answer at the moment. My take on it is that the operator sets the time point of the music back to the previous bar line, and the notes which follow it form a temporary voice in parallel with the preceding one. I suspect that this should only be used to add one complete bar's worth of music for each . It seems like a good idea to me provided that we don't get carried away. In MusicXML there is a similar construct, with the addition that you can switch staves as you set the time point back, and the Dolet plugins for Finale and Sibelius use this extensively for e.g. Piano music. Every bar contains all of the parts, right and left hand, bass and treble clef. It's an absolute nightmare! Phil Taylor To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [abcusers] About the choice of '!'
On Thu, Jul 24, 2003 at 04:51:04PM +0100, Phil Taylor wrote: Richard Robinson wrote: Now that ! staffbreak is available in abcm2ps, it's a reasonable assumption that I'll start using it, because it'll do good things to the legibility of my source, and because I can hope that most people will have access to programs that'll deal with it. I'm still wary of the !decorations!, because I'm not sure how portable they are. But, at the moment I have tr, D.C., etc, in guitar chords, as the only alternative, and that's not good either, so I may well start using !decorations!. In which case the 2 different ! constructions will be mixed together in the same line wherever they have to be. One thing that we have to look out for here is that abc2win not only puts linebreaks where marked by a !, but also ignores all other linebreaks, whether or not the line is continued. I don't know if this is what abcm2ps does. BarFly can now (optionally) emulate abc2win in this respect. So, I think that the rule should be that if you use a ! to mean a linebreak anywhere you should be careful to put ! at the end of every line where you want a linebreak as well. Good point ... No, abcm2ps accepts a mixture of the 2. So if I make sure to write all linebreaks as !, Barfly can display them as intended, plus abc2win plus abc2mps. Okay. I daresay some'll slip through, but it makes sense. Does it auto-detect this, or does the user have to choose it ? (I guess the latter ? Which would make a mixture of the 2 in different tunes a bit annoying for your users). But this begins to look like something I can work with ... I just got out an update to my http://www.leeds.ac.uk/music/Info/RRTuneBk yesterday, that may well be the last of my public abc not to use the ! staffbreak. Will BarFly accept these mixed with !decoration!s ? I guess not, if it's a abc2win-compatability thing. I'm sorry, you've probably said before, I begin to get the feeling I'm not keeping up with all of this. -- Richard Robinson The whole plan hinged upon the natural curiosity of potatoes - S. Lem To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [abcusers] Version 2.0.0 voice overlay and lyrics
Phil Taylor wrote: (of the operator) My take on it is that the operator sets the time point of the music back to the previous bar line, and the notes which follow it form a temporary voice in parallel with the preceding one. I suspect that this should only be used to add one complete bar's worth of music for each . With this limitation, it seems reasonable. It's in abc2mtex, without that limitation, for writing multiple-staff music. I used it exactly once, on something quite simple, and the abc quickly became unreadable, and, worse, nearly un-editable. But...it *did* do what I wanted. It seems like a good idea to me provided that we don't get carried away. In MusicXML there is a similar construct, with the addition that you can switch staves as you set the time point back, and the Dolet plugins for Finale and Sibelius use this extensively for e.g. Piano music. Every bar contains all of the parts, right and left hand, bass and treble clef. It's an absolute nightmare! This pretty well matches my experience. I concluded that if I were to use this any more, I'd need a pre-processor of some sort... So if we want to preserve human-readability and use the in any complicated way, it might be worthwhile discussing alternatives. Cheers, John Walsh To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [abcusers] Version 2.0.0 voice overlay and lyrics
On Thu, 24 Jul 2003, Phil Taylor wrote: My take on it is that the operator sets the time point of the music back to the previous bar line, and the notes which follow it form a temporary voice in parallel with the preceding one. I suspect that this should only be used to add one complete bar's worth of music for each . That is correct! Groeten, Irwin Oppenheim [EMAIL PROTECTED] ~~~* Chazzanut Online: http://www.joods.nl/~chazzanut/ To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [abcusers] Chord length - waaaah!
On Thu, 24 Jul 2003 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Thus [Ace]4 could be used for [A4c4e4]. Heavy ABC User* cries plaintively: Could we at least get this one in and worry about the chords containing different note lengths (can't recall when I've run across this) at some other time? I've added the following to the upcomming revision of the draft standard. Please let me know if it is acceptable. All the notes within a chord should have the same length. More complicated chords can be transcribed with the operator, see section Voice overlay. The chord forms a syntactic grouping, to which the same prefixes and postfixes can be attached as to an ordinary note, except for accidentals. In particular, the following notation is legal: ( ^I.[CEG]- [CEG] ^IV [F=AC]3/2^V[GBD]/ H[CEG]2 ) When both inside and outside the chord length modifiers are used, they should be multiplied. I.e. [C2E2G2]3 has the same meaning as [CEG]6. Groeten, Irwin Oppenheim [EMAIL PROTECTED] ~~~* Chazzanut Online: http://www.joods.nl/~chazzanut/ To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [abcusers] Version 2.0.0 voice overlay and lyrics
On Thu, Jul 24, 2003 at 09:35:52AM -0700, John Walsh wrote: Phil Taylor wrote: (of the operator) My take on it is that the operator sets the time point of the music back to the previous bar line, and the notes which follow it form a temporary voice in parallel with the preceding one. I suspect that this should only be used to add one complete bar's worth of music for each . With this limitation, it seems reasonable. It's in abc2mtex, without that limitation, for writing multiple-staff music. I used it exactly once, on something quite simple, and the abc quickly became unreadable, and, worse, nearly un-editable. But...it *did* do what I wanted. Same here ... twice, I think. It was good to be able to do it, if you really needed to, but it certainly made me think hard about whether I really did need to. Mostly I preferred to sacrifice midi-playability and use P: It seems like a good idea to me provided that we don't get carried away. In MusicXML there is a similar construct, with the addition that you can switch staves as you set the time point back, and the Dolet plugins for Finale and Sibelius use this extensively for e.g. Piano music. Every bar contains all of the parts, right and left hand, bass and treble clef. It's an absolute nightmare! This pretty well matches my experience. I concluded that if I were to use this any more, I'd need a pre-processor of some sort... So if we want to preserve human-readability and use the in any complicated way, it might be worthwhile discussing alternatives. Yes. I'm not sure what would be a more readable way ? -- Richard Robinson The whole plan hinged upon the natural curiosity of potatoes - S. Lem To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [abcusers] Version 2.0.0 voice overlay and lyrics
Bernard Hill writes: | In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], I. Oppenheim | The operator may be used to temporarily overlay | several voices within one measure. The operator | separates these voices from each other. Example: | | A2 E2 G2 A2|A B c d e f g a A A A A A A A A A G F E | D C B, A,|] | | | | So what does that mean? You first have to undo the line wrapping. ;-) Then you get something that is equivalent to: [V:1] A2 E2 G2 A2 | A B c d e f g a |] [V:2] | A A A A A A A A |] [V:3] | A G F E D C B, A,|] This should all be on one staff, of course. With only two bars, it's not very motivating. But if you only have a few bars like this in a larger piece of music, it can save you a lot of typing and futzing with two voices that are mostly silent. (For some reason, this example reminds me of the piano piece by Mozart, which ended with widely separated chords for the left and right hands, plus one note in the middle to be played with your nose.) To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [abcusers] Version 2.0.0 voice overlay and lyrics
On Thu, Jul 24, 2003 at 05:04:14PM +, John Chambers wrote: Bernard Hill writes: | In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], I. Oppenheim | The operator may be used to temporarily overlay | several voices within one measure. The operator | separates these voices from each other. Example: | | A2 E2 G2 A2|A B c d e f g a A A A A A A A A A G F E | D C B, A,|] | | | | So what does that mean? You first have to undo the line wrapping. ;-) Then you get something that is equivalent to: [V:1] A2 E2 G2 A2 | A B c d e f g a |] [V:2] | A A A A A A A A |] [V:3] | A G F E D C B, A,|] This should all be on one staff, of course. With only two bars, it's not very motivating. But if you only have a few bars like this in a larger piece of music, it can save you a lot of typing and futzing with two voices that are mostly silent. It occurs to me that part of the problem here is that the '' just doesn't stand out visually against the notes. I wonder if it would be possible to re-use the existing V: notation - lowercase v: doesn't seem to be in use (oh dear, cue we're running out of letters) A2 E2 G2 A2 | [v:1] A B c d e f g a [v:2] A A A A A A A A [v:3] A G F E D C B, A,|] Is that any more readable ? I think so, but I'm not sure. In fact, the numbers aren't necessary, it's just substituting a different marker (though the colon would be, to distinguish it from an up-bow, and I bet someone else'll suggest the numbers if I don't ...) (For some reason, this example reminds me of the piano piece by Mozart, which ended with widely separated chords for the left and right hands, plus one note in the middle to be played with your nose.) grin. -- Richard Robinson The whole plan hinged upon the natural curiosity of potatoes - S. Lem To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
[abcusers] Re: %%ABC 2.0 identifier
Irwin Oppenheim wrote - On Wed, 23 Jul 2003 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Must? What are you going to do if they don't? Please read carefully what I wrote. Then you will understand, that: 1/ Users are not required to manually add any of these new fields to their ABC files at all. 2/ Programs that import ABC files should not assume that any of these files are present. 3/ The only requirement that I made is that programs that _export_ ABC notation, should add three fields to their output, that make it possible to identify later on which program generated the output, according to which version of ABC. That's all. I have looked through the email I was quoting from and can find nothing corresponding to points 1/ and 2/. In 3/ you have modified "must" to "should"; an improvement. If you read carefully what I wrote, you will understand that the point I was trying to get over was that the principle of a standard is to unify abc regardless of its origin. I don't want to have to use a different set of parsing rules depending on the origin of the file. That is no improvement on the situation we have now. It is up to the developer to make it clear what subset of the standard they do implement then the user can make their choice and pester for the things they want. Nobody disagrees on that. Then why are you saying what applications MUST do? A a further point, you are defining %% commands as mandatory parts of the standard whereas their current usage is application dependant in such a way that they can be safely ignored by other applications. They are thus, by definition, not part of the standard. Bryan Creer
Re: [abcusers] Chord length - waaaah!
On Thu, Jul 24, 2003 at 06:48:53PM +0200, I. Oppenheim wrote: The chord forms a syntactic grouping, to which the same prefixes and postfixes can be attached as to an ordinary note, except for accidentals. In particular, the following notation is legal: ( ^I.[CEG]- [CEG] ^IV [F=AC]3/2^V[GBD]/ H[CEG]2 ) I particularly like the way this clarifies the relationship between the chord and all the other markings that can accumulate around it. -- Richard Robinson The whole plan hinged upon the natural curiosity of potatoes - S. Lem To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [abcusers] Chord length - waaaah!
I. Oppenheim writes: | On Thu, 24 Jul 2003 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: | | Thus [Ace]4 could be | used for [A4c4e4]. | | Heavy ABC User* cries plaintively: | Could we at least get this one in and worry about the chords containing | different note lengths (can't recall when I've run across this) at some | other time? | | I've added the following to the upcomming revision of | the draft standard. Please let me know if it is | acceptable. | | | All the notes within a chord should have the same | length. More complicated chords can be transcribed with | the operator, see section Voice overlay. | | The chord forms a syntactic grouping, to which the same | prefixes and postfixes can be attached as to an | ordinary note, except for accidentals. In particular, | the following notation is legal: | | ( ^I.[CEG]- [CEG] ^IV [F=AC]3/2^V[GBD]/ H[CEG]2 ) | | When both inside and outside the chord length modifiers | are used, they should be multiplied. I.e. [C2E2G2]3 has | the same meaning as [CEG]6. | Very good. It might be better to not totally outlaw notes of different lengths, but rather to say that it isn't a good idea because most cases can't be represented in standard staff notation. There are a few valid uses for such things. Something you see in a lot of guitar music is a chord with one or two white note heads, very often with a dangling tie that leads to no matching note. This has a well-defined meaning to a guitar player. I wonder if there's a way to get this let it ring notation in abc? When I first learned abc, there weren't many examples of the [...] chord notation, and the docs were sketchy. I determined by experimenting that abc2ps only used the length of the first note, so I figured that was how abc did it, and I wrote all such chords with just the first length, as in [G2B][A2c] [B3d][Ac]. Then, some time later, I ran across the comment that different-length notes were in fact meaningful, and you really should put a length on every note. So I started doing that, although it didn't make any difference in the output that I saw. I've since gone back a fixed some of my older tunes that use chords, but I can guarantee that I haven't found them all. And I've noticed abc from other people that does the same thing. So we do have at least a small amount of abc around that does things this way. Maybe I'll try to find the rest and fix them, too. To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [abcusers] Re: %%ABC 2.0 identifier
On Thu, 24 Jul 2003 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: If you read carefully what I wrote, you will understand that the point I was trying to get over was that the principle of a standard is to unify abc regardless of its origin. I don't want to have to use a different set of parsing rules depending on the origin of the file. On the contrary, the upcomming standard will recommend parsers to read ABC as liberal as possible, so that one parser can parse as much ABC as is reasonably possible. On the other hand, the standard urges programs that _write_ ABC to do that as strictly as possible, with as much information as possible. Then why are you saying what applications MUST do? I agree the wording was too strong. Groeten, Irwin Oppenheim [EMAIL PROTECTED] ~~~* Chazzanut Online: http://www.joods.nl/~chazzanut/ To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [abcusers] Version 2.0.0 voice overlay and lyrics
Richard Robinson writes: | On Thu, Jul 24, 2003 at 09:35:52AM -0700, John Walsh wrote: | ... It's an absolute nightmare! | | This pretty well matches my experience. I concluded that if I | were to use this any more, I'd need a pre-processor of some sort... So if | we want to preserve human-readability and use the in any complicated | way, it might be worthwhile discussing alternatives. | | Yes. I'm not sure what would be a more readable way ? One thought: At least with keyboard music, what you have is a transient voice that isn't a true voice, but just appears for a brief time and then fades away. Maybe we could use a single voice, and flag the transient voice with something like a '+' to mean Add this to the voice. The recent example then might look like: [V:1] | A2 E2 G2 A2 | A B c d e f g a | g2 f2 e2 a2 |] [V:1+]| | A A A A A A A A | [V:1+]| | A G F E D C B, A,| The [V:1+] notation would mean to add these into the previous staff as part of V:1. You could use | as much as needed to get the bars aligned correctly, as is done in w: lines to skip to the next bar. Would this solve the problem? It would take a bit of work to implement, but probably no more than the '' approach. I think it could be made a lot more readable, too, as this simple example shows. In most cases, I suppose you would only need one such extra line, to add in the notes that are difficult to put in the [V:1] line. To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [abcusers] Chord length
In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], John Chambers [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes Bernard Hill writes: | In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], Richard Robinson | Like you, I don't have very strong opinions here, it's not a thing | I've found a huge need for. But uses like [A4ce]2 would seem to be | fairly clear to understand, convenient to type, and consistent | with the rest of the language; it's a thing I'd try if I needed to | express such a thing. | | But what does it MEAN in notation terms? You are not allowed to have | different length notes on the same stem in standard notation, so the | [A4bc] would itself have to mean A4 at stem down and [bc] at stems up. | Is this what's intended? | | You only have stems up and down if you have 2 parts on the 1 stave, and | this does not fit in with abc anyway in terms of [] notation. You obviously haven't seen enough music notation. ;-) It's not at all unusual in some sorts of music to have both a solid and an open note head on the same stem. Standard staff notation is obviously very limited in what can be done with this, but combining a quarter and a half note on a single stem is easy, and isn't at all unusual. Yes it is. I've only ever seen it on string parts, eg beginning of final movement of Beethoven 5th. My reference books are quite explicit: two notes of different lengths cannot share a stem. If you must have them sounding at the same time then one has stem up, one down. With L:1/8, the notation [A4ce]2 is a case that works. The resulting A8 is a whole note, so it doesn't have a stem. So the [c2e2] would be two quarter notes on the same stem, and the A8 would be a stemless whole note drawn directly below them. The simpler [A2c]2 would be a half-note A and a quarter-note c on a single stem. These aren't at all odd or unusual notation. Of course, it's very easy to come up with examples in abc that have no representation in staff notation. You can't mix quarter and eighth notes on the same stem. But in any case, this is a secondary issue. The simple case of [Ace]3 is easy, and some people would like it to work. I would agree with that. But I would also expect abc to make [A3ce] into the same thing, ie only need the length on the first note of the chord for the reason I gave above. Similarly, the [ce][Bd] case is very useful, and already works with some abc software. In fact, are there abc programs that reject [ce][Bd] now? Possibly. I don't :-) Bernard Hill Braeburn Software Author of Music Publisher system Music Software written by musicians for musicians http://www.braeburn.co.uk Selkirk, Scotland To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [abcusers] Chord length
Bernard Hill wrote: But what does it MEAN in notation terms? You are not allowed to have different length notes on the same stem in standard notation, ... Well, allowed may not be the right word here. The question is if it's possible in standard notation. You do occasionally see dotted and non-dotted notes on the same stem, and a qarter note and a half note head together as well. Actually, it's easier to implement in standard notation than in abc since the rules are much more relaxed. But I agree with Zouki: Just let that question lie for now. Seems it only derails the discussion. --- Is there any problems with notation like [BAD]4 ? If not, I think it should be included in abc 2.0. It's much easier for a human both to read and write than [B4A4D4] - which should be kept just for the sake of backwards compatibility. Frank Nordberg http://www.musicaviva.com To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
[abcusers] RE : Help - getting ABC files on BarFly
Do you use HFVExplorer ? I think it can convert automatically files between mac and pc. I had no problem for opening my abc files with BarFly then http://www.nic.fi/~lpesonen/HFVExplorer/ ___ Do You Yahoo!? -- Une adresse @yahoo.fr gratuite et en français ! Yahoo! Mail : http://fr.mail.yahoo.com To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
[abcusers] Re: About the choice of '!'
Irwin Oppenheim wrote - line breaking To force a line break at all times, a star (*) can be used. The star can be inserted everywhere, where a note group could. Deprecated line breaking The abc2win program used a `!' character to force line breaks, as is currently supported with the * operator (see section Line breaking). If there is a recognised need for a line break character, then, whatever the rights and wrongs of the situation, ! is well established in that role. It seems pointless to waste another character to do the same job. The abc2win usage obviously conflicts with the !...! style notation for musical symbols It would be more accurate to say that !...! conflicts with the abc2win usage and is far less widely used. (I've never come across an example in nature.) Why not use ** for musical symbols? Bryan Creer
Re: [abcusers] Version 2.0.0 voice overlay and lyrics
John Chambers wrote: One thought: At least with keyboard music, what you have is a transient voice that isn't a true voice, but just appears for a brief time and then fades away. Maybe we could use a single voice, and flag the transient voice with something like a '+' to mean Add this to the voice. The recent example then might look like: [V:1] | A2 E2 G2 A2 | A B c d e f g a | g2 f2 e2 a2 |] [V:1+]| | A A A A A A A A | [V:1+]| | A G F E D C B, A,| The [V:1+] notation would mean to add these into the previous staff as part of V:1. You could use | as much as needed to get the bars aligned correctly, as is done in w: lines to skip to the next bar. Would this solve the problem? It would take a bit of work to implement, but probably no more than the '' approach. I think it could be made a lot more readable, too, as this simple example shows. In most cases, I suppose you would only need one such extra line, to add in the notes that are difficult to put in the [V:1] line. OK, but what I was trying to get a reaction to initially was allowing whatever syntax triggers overlays of notes to similarly trigger an overlay in the corresponding lyrics in the w: line. I am currently up against this limitation in abcm2ps trying to typeset a choral piece where there are the four SATB parts through the entire piece, but only in the last three or four measures the bass part splits into bass I and bass II, with slightly different rhythms for the lyrics. John F. To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [abcusers] Version 2.0.0 voice overlay and lyrics
Richard Robinson wrote: It occurs to me that part of the problem here is that the '' just doesn't stand out visually against the notes. Well, it seems to me that the *main* problem is simlpy that the 2.0 draft doesn't explain it clearly enough (I can assure you all that Bernard wasn't the only one confused about it!). But yes, the lowercase v: seems clearer than the I stil prefer John's V:1+ idea, though. Among other things it allows a clear definition of *which* main voice the secondary voice is connected to. It may get a bit confusing when we have a v:2 as a secondary part to V:1 and a V:2 as an independent voice at the same time. Howeever, I understand the notation already is implemented by at least one application, That is definitely something that should be taken into consideration. --- John Chambers wrote: ... (For some reason, this example reminds me of the piano piece by Mozart, which ended with widely separated chords for the left and right hands, plus one note in the middle to be played with your nose.) Actually a German (I think) 20th Century composer whose name looses me at the moment also wrote a piano piece along the same line: two widely separated chords and a fast repeated drone note in the middle. Only - well the body part *he* specified for the middle note was not the nose... Frank Nordberg http://www.musicaviva.com To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [abcusers] Re: About the choice of '!'
On Thu, 24 Jul 2003 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It would be more accurate to say that !...! conflicts with the abc2win usage and is far less widely used. Both !...! and ! are established notation, and therefore the standard encourages parsers to handle both, and even provides an algorithm to do so. It seems pointless to waste another character to do the same job. I do not think so. Using ! and !..! in one and the same tune may lead to disaster if you make a small typo. So, while ! should definitely be supported, I encourage you to support * as well. Groeten, Irwin Oppenheim [EMAIL PROTECTED] ~~~* Chazzanut Online: http://www.joods.nl/~chazzanut/ To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Subject: Re: [abcusers] About the choice of '!'
I said it could be adviced to use it with care. If someone is using this kind of notation ...|!dead!trill!beef|... then one has made a mistake because it could be misunderstood. It's also the reason why I think in the 2.0 standard * should be used for forced line break instead. And why a mistake ? because if one would have written ...|! dead !trill!beef |... then some parsers may have avoid the error. And if one had thought to another way of putting this trill, either with U: or ~ or with a new line ...| dead !trill!beef|... etc. It's like the question of using a %%version 2.0 in tunes, the general answer is ppl will never enter this number if they don't feel the use to it, it's the same with all other information, some pple will never enter X: fields, some may input unreadable abc... well if people are not parcimonious, it's their problem... Including the version used would be a good idea for those who would need it. Now that ! staffbreak is available in abcm2ps, it's a reasonable /.../ !decorations!. In which case the 2 different ! constructions will be mixed together in the same line wherever they have to be. I thought with the new standard the ! as line break was supposed to be still supported for backward compatibility, and only tolerated, with advice to avoid to use both, or to use with care. ___ Do You Yahoo!? -- Une adresse @yahoo.fr gratuite et en français ! Yahoo! Mail : http://fr.mail.yahoo.com To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [abcusers] Version 2.0.0 voice overlay and lyrics
On Thu, 24 Jul 2003, Frank Nordberg wrote: Well, it seems to me that the *main* problem is simlpy that the 2.0 draft doesn't explain it clearly enough (I can assure you all that Bernard wasn't the only one confused about it!). I'll add a picture when I'll have some time. Groeten, Irwin Oppenheim [EMAIL PROTECTED] ~~~* Chazzanut Online: http://www.joods.nl/~chazzanut/ To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
[abcusers] Re: Chord length - waaaah!
Nobody is opposing the [abc]2 idea are they? Can we take that as agreed and get onto the far more important business of different note lengths in one chord? Irwin Oppenheim wrote - All the notes within a chord should have the same length. More complicated chords can be transcribed with the operator, see section Voice overlay. This was discussed about a year ago and it was generally accepted that you could have notes of different lengths in the same chord. The issue, as John Chambers has mentioned, was which note represented the time elapsed before the following note - highest, lowest, longest, shortest... I opted for first listed on the grounds that it was independant of the musical content. Some agreed but others did not and (as usual) the dicussion reached no firm conclusion. I went ahead and implemented it in Abacus on this basis. For instance with L:1/4, [GD2] A B c would take four beats and [D2G] A B c would take five. I do put notes of two different length on different stems. I hate to think what would happen with notes of three different lengths. I'm quite happy to implement the (or whatever) notation as well but do not want to see what I've already done outlawed. John Chambers wrote - Similarly, the [ce][Bd] case is very useful, and already works with some abc software. It works with Abacus. Bryan Creer
Re: [abcusers] Version 2.0.0 voice overlay and lyrics
On Thu, 24 Jul 2003, John Fattaruso wrote: OK, but what I was trying to get a reaction to initially was allowing whatever syntax triggers overlays of notes to similarly trigger an overlay in the corresponding lyrics in the w: line. There are 2 kludges you can use. Use multiple w: lines; or precede the notes with ^... or _... annotations that contain the lyrics. Groeten, Irwin Oppenheim [EMAIL PROTECTED] ~~~* Chazzanut Online: http://www.joods.nl/~chazzanut/ To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [abcusers] Version 2.0.0 voice overlay and lyrics
The operator may be used to temporarily overlay several voices within one measure. The operator I can understand this when it comes to (temporary) voices, with several melodies. But sometimes it concerns only chords, for ex. a chord with two wholes and one with a half, it seems less logic to use this kind of notation (would A B c d e f g a x6 A2 allowed then ?), so my question is will the notation with for ex. A B c d e f [A2g] a still be possible, in addition to the possibility (this [A2g] was implemented in abcm2ps, andI think Abacus can handle this too) ? It seems so obvious and logical it's strange it wasn't from the beginning of Abc, and for chords it's more readable than this command (again this example of A B c d e f [A2g] a, we can see at once what note is with the other) About pure voice overlay, I think also the option by Richard is even better than , I find it more readable [v:1] A B c d e f g a [v:2] A A A A A A A A [v:3] A G F E D C B, A,|] ___ Do You Yahoo!? -- Une adresse @yahoo.fr gratuite et en français ! Yahoo! Mail : http://fr.mail.yahoo.com To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [abcusers] Version 2.0.0 voice overlay and lyrics
On Thu, 24 Jul 2003, [iso-8859-1] Forgeot Eric wrote: would A B c d e f g a x6 A2 allowed then ? This is notated correctly. so my question is will the notation with for ex. A B c d e f [A2g] a still be possible, in addition to the possibility (this [A2g] was implemented in abcm2ps Abcm2ps does not support it. In abcm2ps [A2g] is equivalent with [A2g2] . Please explain to me: would there be any difference between [A2g] and [gA2] ? Groeten, Irwin Oppenheim [EMAIL PROTECTED] ~~~* Chazzanut Online: http://www.joods.nl/~chazzanut/ To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: Subject: Re: [abcusers] About the choice of '!'
Wow! Go away for two hours and I'm 20 emails behind and the subject I was thinking about has changed. (Probably a good thing, keeps me from sending some better-not-sent posts.) Are all of you folks sitting anxiously by your computers with your email opened??? But could I ask people to be sparing with the material quoted? That usually isn't a problem, but with the present volume, it takes quite a bit of time to go thru quoted and re-quoted material, and anything which would pare down that task would be appreciated. Apologies for taking your time on this. On the subject of bangs and stars for linebreaks and decorations...I haven't been following it closely, and now I admit to being a bit puzzled as to the status of what's being decided. It seems to me that using ! for both a hard linebreak and for ! ... ! in the same tune is asking for trouble. Using spaces to help distinguish them (did I see that suggested?) will lead to really frustrated users who can't understand why abc refuses to behave as they expect---and who, after they find out that it's just a missing or extra [EMAIL PROTECTED] space (dialect of cartoon language there, not abc) will re-invent Phil's unix post on the spot. The other thing that makes this question a bit hard to decide is that the linbreak usage is pretty much limited to abc2win, while the other usage is so recent that not too many people even know about it yet. I personally like ! ... ! as is, because my intuition is that the ! ... ! usage will be considerably more important in the long run, but of course, that remains to be seen. What about deciding what we actually want---whatever will make the best abc---as opposed to what we think we are forced to accept? There could be an abc2win compatibility mode---where ! is always a hard linebreak---and some well-placed warnings to the effect that There is an ambiguous use of !. You may want to try abc2win compatibility mode. And maybe, just maybe, if someone convinces Chris to downplay abc2win on his site, the problem will get less acute with time. (Or Jum Vint will update abc2win. But that is really too much to ask. I am reminded of a sig I saw somewhere: Programming is like sex: make one mistake and you end up supporting it for life.) Cheers, John Walsh To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [abcusers] Version 2.0.0 voice overlay and lyrics
John Walsh [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I concluded that if I were to use this any more, I'd need a pre-processor of some sort... So if we want to preserve human-readability and use the in any complicated way, it might be worthwhile discussing alternatives. My little project is ABCifying the tunes from the RSCDS dance books. Some of the tunes have a second voice every so often (say, in four bars out of twenty-four), and the »« feature saves me a lot of typing in [V:2] bits that are mostly empty. Anselm -- Anselm Lingnau .. [EMAIL PROTECTED] I don't know a lot about this artificial life stuff -- but I'm suspicious of anything Newsweek gets goofy about -- and I suspect its primary use is as another money extraction tool to be applied by AI labs to the Department of Defense (and more power to 'em). -- Aaron Watters To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [abcusers] Version 2.0.0 voice overlay and lyrics
We currently have this notation for voice overlay (although this is first I'd ever heard of it). A2 E2 G2 A2|A B c d e f g a A A A A A A A A A G F E D C B, A,|] John Chambers explained was functionally equivalent to doing this. [V:1] A2 E2 G2 A2 | A B c d e f g a |] [V:2] | A A A A A A A A |] [V:3] | A G F E D C B, A,|] He went on, in a later email, to suggest that, because they are actually transient voices that, rather than have to continue to notate the two mostly empty voices throughout a piece that an an alternate notation could be used and he suggested. [V:1] | A2 E2 G2 A2 | A B c d e f g a | g2 f2 e2 a2 |] [V:1+]| | A A A A A A A A | [V:1+]| | A G F E D C B, A,| In a parallel track, Richard Robinson proposed this variant of the first to improve readability, where presumably the second voices were also to be considered transient for that bar. A2 E2 G2 A2 |[v:1] A B c d e f g a [v:2] A A A A A A A A [v:3] A G F E D C B, A,|] OK. I liked John's idea of transient voices as he expressed them: [V:1+]. While using separate lines for each transient voice certainly improves readability, it is much harder to write. I really like the compactness of the original. So, how about combining the two ideas? A2 E2 G2 A2 |[V:1] A B c d e f g a [V:1+] A A A A A A A A [V:1+] A G F E D C B, A,|] Or use Richard's lower case idea [v:1+]. To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [abcusers] Chord length
But uses like [A4ce]2 would seem to be fairly clear to understand, convenient to type, and consistent with the rest of the language; it's a thing I'd try if I needed to express such a thing. Mixed lengths in the same chord are *not* clear to understand if you are trying to implement a player or barlength checker, or even a staff notation generator where absolute duration influences horizontal space allocation. Some other time, PLEASE. - Jack Campin: 11 Third Street, Newtongrange, Midlothian EH22 4PU; 0131 6604760 http://www.purr.demon.co.uk/jack * food intolerance data recipes, Mac logic fonts, Scots traditional music files, and my CD-ROM Embro, Embro. -- off-list mail to j-c rather than abc at this site, please -- To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [abcusers] About the choice of '!'
This is what the new standard-in-development has to say about it: line breaking To force a line break at all times, a star (*) can be used. Who wrote that, why and after what discussion? (That is not what the abc2mtex * means). For me it would be a pain in the arse. If you want to use * for anything, use it for the bracketed things (which I won't write anyway so I don't care how ugly they are). Deprecated line breaking The abc2win program used a `!' character to force line breaks, as is currently supported with the * operator (see section Line breaking). Deprecate !text! instead. Users should avoid using ! line breaks together with !...! symbols. Easy enough, I have no intention of ever using those symbols. - Jack Campin: 11 Third Street, Newtongrange, Midlothian EH22 4PU; 0131 6604760 http://www.purr.demon.co.uk/jack * food intolerance data recipes, Mac logic fonts, Scots traditional music files, and my CD-ROM Embro, Embro. -- off-list mail to j-c rather than abc at this site, please -- To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [abcusers] About the choice of '!'
Let's see; if I read this correctly, then in the line: ...|!dead!trill!beef|... the !dead! would be the decoration, and the staff break would come in the middle of the bar. Right? Good point, but generally people who are using one system (who belong to the abc2win sect for ex., or in the opposite to the abcm2ps sect) won't use the other one. It might be useful to some to have the functionality provided by both. By far the best way to do that would be for abcm2ps to change the character(s) it uses round those !text! things to something else, like + or * (both of which are both legacy syntax and rarely used back when they were supported). - Jack Campin: 11 Third Street, Newtongrange, Midlothian EH22 4PU; 0131 6604760 http://www.purr.demon.co.uk/jack * food intolerance data recipes, Mac logic fonts, Scots traditional music files, and my CD-ROM Embro, Embro. -- off-list mail to j-c rather than abc at this site, please -- To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [abcusers] Version 2.0.0 voice overlay and lyrics
Voice overlay The operator may be used to temporarily overlay several voices within one measure. The operator separates these voices from each other. My take on it is that the operator sets the time point of the music back to the previous bar line, and the notes which follow it form a temporary voice in parallel with the preceding one. I suspect that this should only be used to add one complete bar's worth of music for each . Assuming you would only ever want to do this in music with barlines? Really? Surely there are monophonic chants where voices split for a brief imitative Alleuia or Amen, for example? Or unmeasured guitar music? - I'd expect guitar and lute pieces to see the largest use of this feature. Why not some explicit start point? - paralleling the not-anchored-to- a-barline repeat syntax, use [ maybe? And perhaps a terminator to help sanity-checker utilities work out that the same duration had been provided for each voice, maybe ] ? I don't see why it needs to be unreadable; just overlap the voices vertically. Using the example given, removing barlines and adding a bit on the end: A2 E2 G2 A2 [[ A B c d e f g a \ A A A A A A A A \ A G F E D C B, A, ] D2 E2 A2 ... (I'm assuming each needs a separate matching explicitly stated start point - it also allows for a bit more generality as they needn't coincide). - Jack Campin: 11 Third Street, Newtongrange, Midlothian EH22 4PU; 0131 6604760 http://www.purr.demon.co.uk/jack * food intolerance data recipes, Mac logic fonts, Scots traditional music files, and my CD-ROM Embro, Embro. -- off-list mail to j-c rather than abc at this site, please -- To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [abcusers] Readability of abc
I won't say there's no reason to read abc notation at all, but I can say that I know a substantial community of traditional musicians in New Hampshire who use abc, and all use it to display musical notation, to listen to the tune in question and to exchange tunes; none use it to read directly. I suspect our usage pattern is pretty typical of the traditional music community in general. You know you've got it right when somebody turns up at a session with a tune on paper as a prompt - and it's your ABC on a slip the size of a bus ticket. I've had that happen to me. - Jack Campin: 11 Third Street, Newtongrange, Midlothian EH22 4PU; 0131 6604760 http://www.purr.demon.co.uk/jack * food intolerance data recipes, Mac logic fonts, Scots traditional music files, and my CD-ROM Embro, Embro. -- off-list mail to j-c rather than abc at this site, please -- To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: Subject: Re: [abcusers] About the choice of '!'
John Walsh writes: | On the subject of bangs and stars for linebreaks and | decorations...I haven't been following it closely, and now I admit to | being a bit puzzled as to the status of what's being decided. It | seems to me that using ! for both a hard linebreak and for ! ... ! in the | same tune is asking for trouble. Using spaces to help distinguish them | (did I see that suggested?) will lead to really frustrated users who can't | understand why abc refuses to behave as they expect What seems to have happened is that I and a few others pointed out that we don't really have a serious problem with the two uses of ! right now, because a simple heuristic can tell which meaning was used in a tune. But some people misinterpreted this to mean that both could be legal in the standard language. But using both in a single tune is a parsing disaster. This sort of situation arises in software standardization efforts all the time. Vendors X, Y and Z implement the standard, with their own favorite extensions. Each extension is fine on its own, and it's not difficult for software to distinguish them (especially if there's some sort of id to test). But they can't all be implemented in the same software for some reason. In such cases, it's normal for X, Y and Z (and their customers) to dig in their heels and insist that the standard follow their lead. The standard committee (or voting population) eventually has to just shrug and make a decision. That decision might be to not add any of the extensions to the standard. More often, a scheme is worked out that forces one or more of the vendors to revise their software if they want to be able to claim standard compliant. In our case, one use of ! was implemented, but nobody except the users of one tool was aware of it. Even after I noticed the funny ! char in some tunes, it took me a couple of years to discover what it meant, since the tunes made sense if I just ignored it. Then another (very public) discussion of annotaions started, and the suggestion came up to use ! as a quote char, because it wasn't being used in abc yet. As far as most of us knew, it was unused, and was available. So several other important abc tools started recognizing the !...! construct, and it became a de-facto extension to the language. We could change all those programs to use a different delimiter, and edit all the abc that uses !...! to use the new delimiter. Or we can ignore the conflict, and make !...! the standard. This wouldn't actually be all that bad an idea, because the simple heuristic still works. The one thing that really won't work is permitting both in one tune. It's likely that abc2win won't be changed to match any new standard, as it wasn't changed to match the 1.6 standard. But this doesn't make that much difference, as we'll just need some bits of code to spot the abc2win ! and ignore it. And if Jim decides to update abc2win, or passes the code to someone else, we can strongly suggest that it be updated to the standard. My feeling is that the active developers shouldn't be held back by a popular but obsolete program that isn't being maintained. This is a slippery slope, as the media calls it, and will just invite more such problems in the future. The practical approach is to add the !...! notation to the standard, accept that there are old programs that aren't compatible with this and other minor points, and note that there's a simple workaround in this case. For that matter, we have lots of other standard features of abc that aren't implemented by some programs. And cases like continuation that are done differently by different programs. It's not that big a deal. We can just decide what the standard should be, and use social pressure to try to get programs up to date. Or not. To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [abcusers] Installing abcm2ps on OS X
[attempting to housetrain a Unix system] So I type PATH=/bin:/sbin:/usr/bin:/usr/sbin:/usr/local/bin echo $PATH and it says /bin:/sbin:/usr/bin:/usr/sbin: No good. Try PATH=/bin:/sbin:/usr/bin:/usr/sbin:/usr/local/bin export PATH You might also want to change your shell to something less squirmily haveanicedayish than tcsh. chsh is the command to do the change; bash is pretty reasonable though my fave back when I was using Unix a lot was ksh (which just does what you tell it without trying to get creative). - Jack Campin: 11 Third Street, Newtongrange, Midlothian EH22 4PU; 0131 6604760 http://www.purr.demon.co.uk/jack * food intolerance data recipes, Mac logic fonts, Scots traditional music files, and my CD-ROM Embro, Embro. -- off-list mail to j-c rather than abc at this site, please -- To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [abcusers] Version 2.0.0 voice overlay and lyrics
Anselm Lingnau writes: | | My little project is ABCifying the tunes from the RSCDS dance books. | Some of the tunes have a second voice every so often (say, in four | bars out of twenty-four), and the »« feature saves me a lot of typing | in [V:2] bits that are mostly empty. Hey, glad to see you're doing this. I've volunteered in the past, but the RSCDS didn't respond. So I've just done a lot of them in my own way, which usually amounts to extracting just the melody and ignoring bass lines and decorative voicelets. And adding my own chords (or simplifying theirs). And comparing the tunes with other books, to get a merged version. So my collection isn't a faithful transcription of the RSCDS booklets. If you're trying to transcribe the entire RSCDS versions of tunes, you might want to start commenting here about the abc limitations. You'll probably see a lot of them. Keyboard music is the worst case. I've also mentioned the idea of an RSCDS ABC project in the strathspey list, but it always seems to morph into a discussion of the possible copyright problems. I suspect that this is a red herring. People contribute their tunes and dances to the RSCDS because they want them played and danced, not because they expect to collect royalties. I'll predict that not a single tune or dance deviser will object to having them online. And your if your site has any impact on sales of the booklet, it will be a small increase due to the publicity. (I'm assuming that you'll include www.rscds.org in each tune's header. ;-) Are you doing the dance descriptions, too? That's a LOT of typing. To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [abcusers] Version 2.0.0 voice overlay and lyrics
Tom Keays writes: | | OK. I liked John's idea of transient voices as he expressed them: [V:1+]. | While using separate lines for each transient voice certainly improves | readability, it is much harder to write. I really like the compactness of | the original. | | So, how about combining the two ideas? | | | Or use Richard's lower case idea [v:1+]. Or, if we're going for ideas, we could note that we could just omit the stuff after the V: to say that it should be added to the second voice. This would produce: A2 E2 G2 A2 |A B c d e f g a [V:] A A A A A A A A [V:] A G F E D C B, A,|] This is syntactically identical to the usage, of course. Or my earlier example could become: [V:1] A2 E2 G2 A2 | A B c d e f g a | g2 f2 e2 a2 |] [V:] | A A A A A A A A | [V:] | A G F E D C B, A,| This is obviously wordier, but easier to sight read. Any more ideas? To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [abcusers] Version 2.0.0 voice overlay and lyrics
Oooh. I like Jack's suggestion. Mainly because nothing would have to be changed. If it ain't broke and all that... However, I don't think it has to be as complicated as Jack has it. A2 E2 G2 A2 [[ A B c d e f g a \ A A A A A A A A \ A G F E D C B, A, ] D2 E2 A2 ... If the standard already says that A2 E2 G2 A2|A B c d e f g a A A A A A A A A A G F E D C B, A,|] is ok, then A2 E2 G2 A2|A B c d e f g a \ A A A A A A A A \ A G F E D C B, A,|] must also be ok! To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [abcusers] Version 2.0.0 voice overlay and lyrics
On Fri, 25 Jul 2003, Jack Campin wrote: A2 E2 G2 A2 [[ A B c d e f g a \ A A A A A A A A \ A G F E D C B, A, ] D2 E2 A2 ... For meter free music one could use _invissible_ bars, like this: A2 E2 G2 A2 [|] A B c d e f g a \ A A A A A A A A \ A G F E D C B, A, [|] D2 E2 A2 ... I think your use of the \ continuation makes for very readable music here. Groeten, Irwin Oppenheim [EMAIL PROTECTED] ~~~* Chazzanut Online: http://www.joods.nl/~chazzanut/ To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [abcusers] Installing abcm2ps on OS X
On Fri, 25 Jul 2003, Jack Campin wrote: Try PATH=/bin:/sbin:/usr/bin:/usr/sbin:/usr/local/bin export PATH No Jack, that's bourne shell syntax!!! A day ago I gave the correct solution for tcsh in a separate posting. You might also want to change your shell to something less squirmily haveanicedayish than tcsh. chsh is the command to do the change; bash is pretty reasonable At the moment, bash is the de facto standard in the UNIX community. You can change to it with the following command: chsh `which bash` Note the back quotes. The settings file of bash is called .bash_profile and resides in your home directory. You can use the Bourne shell syntax described above to add a path to your .bash_profile: export PATH=$PATH:/usr/local/bin or you can add alias abcm2ps='/usr/local/bin/abcm2ps' Groeten, Irwin Oppenheim [EMAIL PROTECTED] ~~~* Chazzanut Online: http://www.joods.nl/~chazzanut/ To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [abcusers] Version 2.0.0 voice overlay and lyrics
On Fri, 25 Jul 2003, Jack Campin wrote: paralleling the not-anchored-to- a-barline repeat syntax You mean something like | [1 A B [|] [2 C D | ? Groeten, Irwin Oppenheim [EMAIL PROTECTED] ~~~* Chazzanut Online: http://www.joods.nl/~chazzanut/ To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [abcusers] Version 2.0.0 voice overlay and lyrics
Thank you all for your input! This is what I'll put in the revision of the standard: Voice overlay The operator may be used to temporarily overlay several voices within one measure. The operator sets the time point of the music back to the previous bar line, and the notes which follow it form a temporary voice in parallel with the preceding one. This may only be used to add one complete bar's worth of music for each . Example: A2 E2 G2 A2 | A B c d e f g a \ A A A A A A A A \ A G F E D C B, A, |] In meter free music, invisible bar signs `[|]' may be used instead of regular ones. Acceptable? Groeten, Irwin Oppenheim [EMAIL PROTECTED] ~~~* Chazzanut Online: http://www.joods.nl/~chazzanut/ To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [abcusers] Version 2.0.0 voice overlay and lyrics
On Thu, 24 Jul 2003, John Chambers wrote: [V:1] | A2 E2 G2 A2 | A B c d e f g a | g2 f2 e2 a2 |] [V:1+]| | A A A A A A A A | [V:1+]| | A G F E D C B, A,| While it is a nice idea, it is impossible to implement. The reason is that the ABC standard allows a voice to be broken up in any conceivable way, and different voices may appear in any order. Therefore an ABC parser cannot be sure how to synchronise voices, unless they are written out in full. Concluding: I think the operator is the best solution for notating temp. voices. Irwin To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [abcusers] Version 2.0.0 voice overlay and lyrics
On Thu, 24 Jul 2003, John Fattaruso wrote: As someone primarily interested in typesetting choral music, I was very interested in the voice overlay capability with the '' syntax that emerged in abcm2ps some time ago. Many times in choral music we will have a vocal line splitting into two or three lines for only a few measures here and there, and abc shouldn't require defining a whole different voice for just those few measures. I did not see any mention of this capability in the new 2.0.0 standard, however. Maybe I missed it? in the draft proposal I published I decided to stick to feratures that are already implemented by major applications only. '' is a very useful feature (I'm a singer too), but AFAIK only abcm2ps supports it. Irwin Oppenheim has extended the draft proposal with a more aggressive stance, please wait while we're fixing it. Later, Guido =8-) -- Guido Gonzato, Ph.D. guido . gonzato at univr . it - Linux System Manager Universita' di Verona (Italy), Facolta' di Scienze MM. FF. NN. Ca' Vignal II, Strada Le Grazie 15, 37134 Verona (Italy) Tel. +39 045 8027990; Fax +39 045 8027928 --- Timeas hominem unius libri To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html