Re: [AFMUG] Avoid 'make ready' by using my own poles

[Jason McKemie]

The NEC that the local power coop goes by is 40" below neutral for a
conductive cable, and 30" for non-conductive.

On Friday, June 23, 2017, Chuck McCown  wrote:

> The zone around primary conductors that you have to keep out of.  Rule of
> thumb is 10 feet, but there are legal specs.  Actually secondary too but
> that is normally 12-18 inches.
>
> *From:* Adam Moffett
> *Sent:* Friday, June 23, 2017 11:43 AM
> *To:* af@afmug.com
> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Avoid 'make ready' by using my own poles
>
> This is going to be an ignorant question, but what is the clearance zone?
>
>
> -- Original Message --
> From: ch...@wbmfg.com
> To: af@afmug.com
> Sent: 6/23/2017 1:16:21 PM
> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Avoid 'make ready' by using my own poles
>
>
> You can’t force them to use your pole.
> Your pole cannot encroach on the clearance zone.
>
> You can always put your own poles in ROW that is clear from other pole
> lines.
> Across the street is probably fine depending on easements.
>
> You can always go underground for a span or two.  That will be less
> expensive.
>
> *From:* Adam Moffett
> *Sent:* Friday, June 23, 2017 11:09 AM
> *To:* af@afmug.com
> *Subject:* [AFMUG] Avoid 'make ready' by using my own poles
>
> So, our most common make ready issue so far has been old poles that are
> relatively short and we can't stay the required distance from the power
> equipment and also be far enough above the existing phone line.  Sometimes
> we can use a standoff or other solutions to avoid the issue, but sometimes
> the pole needs to be replaced.  It's never less than $5,000, could be as
> much as $10,000.
>
> What I'm wondering is this:  We can get a new 35' pole for $800.  We can
> get a new 50' pole for $1500.  Is there any reason I couldn't just avoid
> make ready expense by setting our own pole instead of using theirs?  Even
> with guy wires, permit, and easements it's almost guaranteed to be less
> expensive.  Maybe I would put a 35 footer on the opposite side of the road,
> for example.  Or maybe we set the new 50 footer right next to theirs and
> even let them move onto our pole if they want to.  It seems too easy and
> I'm wondering if there's a catch I'm not thinking of.
>
>
>
>

Re: [AFMUG] Ready for the Xbox one X and 100GB games?

[Robert]

i.e.  AT blocking port 25?   I can't think of a more asinine thing to 
do to customers that might have a clue...


On 6/23/17 5:53 PM, Josh Reynolds wrote:

Agreed.

On Fri, Jun 23, 2017 at 7:21 PM, Mike Hammett > wrote:


I don't think blocking VPNs or SSL would be reasonable network
management. I don't think outright blocking any legal content would
be considered reasonable.



-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions 


Midwest Internet Exchange 


The Brothers WISP 





*From: *"Sean Heskett" >
*To: *af@afmug.com 
*Sent: *Friday, June 23, 2017 7:20:13 PM
*Subject: *Re: [AFMUG] Ready for the Xbox one X and 100GB games?

I completely agree with you on all those points josh.  It's a stupid
thing to do for many reasons, but being illegal is not one of those
reasons.

I'm not picking a fight, just trying to clear the air about the
legalities in regards to DPI rules to block or throttle a traffic
type (such as VPN/SSL).  a lot of folks don't understand that
"reasonable network management" is protected by the FCC NN rules.

-sean


On Fri, Jun 23, 2017 at 5:33 PM, Josh Reynolds > wrote:

Listen, at the end of the day you're consider penalizing the
very people who make it possible for you to operate, when in
reality you should be trying to find ways to get the government
to stop handing out cruise ships full of money to companies to
continue doing the same old shit.

People do not want UBB.  Cable COs have been doing it for years
to help stifle competition (online streaming) away from their
money maker (cable tv + ad revenue).

On Fri, Jun 23, 2017 at 6:21 PM, Josh Reynolds
> wrote:

edit: s/can/can't/

On Fri, Jun 23, 2017 at 6:21 PM, Josh Reynolds
> wrote:

Because you can discriminate based on traffic type
except in the case of reasonable network management. 
Not to mention you will block every single telework user

in the process, along with many other types of content
riding on that tunnel.

I'll say this, I would not be the one to want to try an
explain "I block VPNs" to the FCC.  You can have fun
with that all you want.

On Fri, Jun 23, 2017 at 6:17 PM, Sean Heskett
> wrote:

All of that is very true Eric and I completely agree
with you.  However, Josh said it was illegal and I
was pointing out that it is expressly legal to do
per the FCC NN rules.  It's not smart or efficient
at fixing the problem but it is legal to do.

-Sean



On Fri, Jun 23, 2017 at 3:26 PM, Eric Kuhnke
> wrote:

you go right ahead and do DPI / deprioritize all
TLS type traffic, that is something I would
highly encourage any of my competitors to do...
Since a huge % of web traffic is https now,
netflix is https/tls1.2, youtube is
https/tls1.2, etc, all you would accomplish is
hurting everyone's throughput for all of the
most common websites and applications.

On Fri, Jun 23, 2017 at 11:27 AM, Sean Heskett
> wrote:

how is it illegal?  FCC says we can manage
our networks as needed.

On Fri, Jun 23, 2017 at 12:55 AM, Josh
Reynolds > wrote:

And illegal.

 

Re: [AFMUG] Avoid 'make ready' by using my own poles

[Chuck McCown]

The zone around primary conductors that you have to keep out of.  Rule of thumb 
is 10 feet, but there are legal specs.  Actually secondary too but that is 
normally 12-18 inches.  

From: Adam Moffett 
Sent: Friday, June 23, 2017 11:43 AM
To: af@afmug.com 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Avoid 'make ready' by using my own poles

This is going to be an ignorant question, but what is the clearance zone?  


-- Original Message --
From: ch...@wbmfg.com
To: af@afmug.com
Sent: 6/23/2017 1:16:21 PM
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Avoid 'make ready' by using my own poles

  You can’t force them to use your pole.
  Your pole cannot encroach on the clearance zone.

  You can always put your own poles in ROW that is clear from other pole lines. 
 
  Across the street is probably fine depending on easements.  

  You can always go underground for a span or two.  That will be less 
expensive.  

  From: Adam Moffett 
  Sent: Friday, June 23, 2017 11:09 AM
  To: af@afmug.com 
  Subject: [AFMUG] Avoid 'make ready' by using my own poles

  So, our most common make ready issue so far has been old poles that are 
relatively short and we can't stay the required distance from the power 
equipment and also be far enough above the existing phone line.  Sometimes we 
can use a standoff or other solutions to avoid the issue, but sometimes the 
pole needs to be replaced.  It's never less than $5,000, could be as much as 
$10,000.   

  What I'm wondering is this:  We can get a new 35' pole for $800.  We can get 
a new 50' pole for $1500.  Is there any reason I couldn't just avoid make ready 
expense by setting our own pole instead of using theirs?  Even with guy wires, 
permit, and easements it's almost guaranteed to be less expensive.  Maybe I 
would put a 35 footer on the opposite side of the road, for example.  Or maybe 
we set the new 50 footer right next to theirs and even let them move onto our 
pole if they want to.  It seems too easy and I'm wondering if there's a catch 
I'm not thinking of.

Re: [AFMUG] Target Practice

[Jay Weekley]

Mine is "I saw this in a cartoon, let's see if it will work".

David Milholen wrote:


Hey thats my line :)



On 6/21/2017 1:03 PM, Robert Andrews wrote:

Hold my beer

On 06/21/2017 11:00 AM, Bill Prince wrote:

As in "Hey Bubba, watch this!"


bp


On 6/21/2017 10:38 AM, Chris Wright wrote:


My tech�s notes:

Found the cable at the bottom of the utility pole shredded. Customer
had targets on pole and it looks like it was shot with a shotgun.

�

Chris Wright

Network Administrator

�





--

 
	Virus-free. www.avg.com 
 



<#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2>

Re: [AFMUG] Simple licensed antenna install question

[Lewis Bergman]

And the seal.

On Fri, Jun 23, 2017, 1:49 PM Adam Moffett  wrote:

> remove it.  It's just keeping the waveguide clean during shipping and
> storage, and will interfere with signal if left in place.
>
> -- Original Message --
> From: "Colin Stanners" 
> To: "af@afmug.com" 
> Sent: 6/23/2017 2:46:36 PM
> Subject: [AFMUG] Simple licensed antenna install question
>
> It's been a while since we installed a licensed antenna, we're all so busy
> with fiber, so no one remembers... is the tape at the back of the dish
> covering the waveguide hole supposed to be left there, or should it be
> removed before install?
>
>

Re: [AFMUG] Ready for the Xbox one X and 100GB games?

[Josh Reynolds]

Agreed.

On Fri, Jun 23, 2017 at 7:21 PM, Mike Hammett  wrote:

> I don't think blocking VPNs or SSL would be reasonable network management.
> I don't think outright blocking any legal content would be considered
> reasonable.
>
>
>
> -
> Mike Hammett
> Intelligent Computing Solutions 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Midwest Internet Exchange 
> 
> 
> 
> The Brothers WISP 
> 
>
>
> 
> --
> *From: *"Sean Heskett" 
> *To: *af@afmug.com
> *Sent: *Friday, June 23, 2017 7:20:13 PM
> *Subject: *Re: [AFMUG] Ready for the Xbox one X and 100GB games?
>
> I completely agree with you on all those points josh.  It's a stupid thing
> to do for many reasons, but being illegal is not one of those reasons.
>
> I'm not picking a fight, just trying to clear the air about the legalities
> in regards to DPI rules to block or throttle a traffic type (such as
> VPN/SSL).  a lot of folks don't understand that "reasonable network
> management" is protected by the FCC NN rules.
>
> -sean
>
>
> On Fri, Jun 23, 2017 at 5:33 PM, Josh Reynolds 
> wrote:
>
>> Listen, at the end of the day you're consider penalizing the very people
>> who make it possible for you to operate, when in reality you should be
>> trying to find ways to get the government to stop handing out cruise ships
>> full of money to companies to continue doing the same old shit.
>>
>> People do not want UBB.  Cable COs have been doing it for years to help
>> stifle competition (online streaming) away from their money maker (cable tv
>> + ad revenue).
>>
>> On Fri, Jun 23, 2017 at 6:21 PM, Josh Reynolds 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> edit: s/can/can't/
>>>
>>> On Fri, Jun 23, 2017 at 6:21 PM, Josh Reynolds 
>>> wrote:
>>>
 Because you can discriminate based on traffic type except in the case
 of reasonable network management.  Not to mention you will block every
 single telework user in the process, along with many other types of content
 riding on that tunnel.

 I'll say this, I would not be the one to want to try an explain "I
 block VPNs" to the FCC.  You can have fun with that all you want.

 On Fri, Jun 23, 2017 at 6:17 PM, Sean Heskett  wrote:

> All of that is very true Eric and I completely agree with you.
> However, Josh said it was illegal and I was pointing out that it is
> expressly legal to do per the FCC NN rules.  It's not smart or efficient 
> at
> fixing the problem but it is legal to do.
>
> -Sean
>
>
>
> On Fri, Jun 23, 2017 at 3:26 PM, Eric Kuhnke 
> wrote:
>
>> you go right ahead and do DPI / deprioritize all TLS type traffic,
>> that is something I would highly encourage any of my competitors to do...
>> Since a huge % of web traffic is https now, netflix is https/tls1.2,
>> youtube is https/tls1.2, etc, all you would accomplish is hurting
>> everyone's throughput for all of the most common websites and 
>> applications.
>>
>> On Fri, Jun 23, 2017 at 11:27 AM, Sean Heskett 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> how is it illegal?  FCC says we can manage our networks as needed.
>>>
>>> On Fri, Jun 23, 2017 at 12:55 AM, Josh Reynolds <
>>> j...@kyneticwifi.com> wrote:
>>>
 And illegal.

 - Josh

 On Jun 22, 2017 11:22 AM, "Mike Hammett"  wrote:

> We go from bad idea to worse?
>
>
>
> -
> Mike Hammett
> Intelligent Computing Solutions 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Midwest Internet Exchange 
> 
> 
> 
> The Brothers WISP 
> 
>
>
> 
> --
> *From: *"Kurt Fankhauser" 
> *To: *af@afmug.com
> *Sent: 

Re: [AFMUG] Ready for the Xbox one X and 100GB games?

[Eric Kuhnke]

Legality and regulations aside, let's pretend for a minute there is no such
thing as the FCC or Industry Canada and it's a total free-for-all. I have
seen people spend a lot of time, money and effort on attempting to
implement DPI solutions using various vendors' semi-proprietary solutions,
and how to integrate them into their existing network. I have also seen
people spend a lot of money and person-hours in monthly billing
processes/customer headaches implementing UBB on a per-case basis for
individual customers.

In my opinion those person-hours, equipment purchase money and effort spent
on DPI and traffic categorization is better put towards improving your
backhaul situation, obtaining low cost IP transit at a major IX, setting up
peering where you can, and other capacity constraint issues in your own
network. If your goal is to get the traffic off your network and to/from
the content-provider ASes as soon as possible and as efficiently as
possible, and you focus on that, you will have better results.

On Fri, Jun 23, 2017 at 4:33 PM, Josh Reynolds  wrote:

> Listen, at the end of the day you're consider penalizing the very people
> who make it possible for you to operate, when in reality you should be
> trying to find ways to get the government to stop handing out cruise ships
> full of money to companies to continue doing the same old shit.
>
> People do not want UBB.  Cable COs have been doing it for years to help
> stifle competition (online streaming) away from their money maker (cable tv
> + ad revenue).
>
> On Fri, Jun 23, 2017 at 6:21 PM, Josh Reynolds 
> wrote:
>
>> edit: s/can/can't/
>>
>> On Fri, Jun 23, 2017 at 6:21 PM, Josh Reynolds 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Because you can discriminate based on traffic type except in the case of
>>> reasonable network management.  Not to mention you will block every single
>>> telework user in the process, along with many other types of content riding
>>> on that tunnel.
>>>
>>> I'll say this, I would not be the one to want to try an explain "I block
>>> VPNs" to the FCC.  You can have fun with that all you want.
>>>
>>> On Fri, Jun 23, 2017 at 6:17 PM, Sean Heskett  wrote:
>>>
 All of that is very true Eric and I completely agree with you.
 However, Josh said it was illegal and I was pointing out that it is
 expressly legal to do per the FCC NN rules.  It's not smart or efficient at
 fixing the problem but it is legal to do.

 -Sean



 On Fri, Jun 23, 2017 at 3:26 PM, Eric Kuhnke 
 wrote:

> you go right ahead and do DPI / deprioritize all TLS type traffic,
> that is something I would highly encourage any of my competitors to do...
> Since a huge % of web traffic is https now, netflix is https/tls1.2,
> youtube is https/tls1.2, etc, all you would accomplish is hurting
> everyone's throughput for all of the most common websites and 
> applications.
>
> On Fri, Jun 23, 2017 at 11:27 AM, Sean Heskett 
> wrote:
>
>> how is it illegal?  FCC says we can manage our networks as needed.
>>
>> On Fri, Jun 23, 2017 at 12:55 AM, Josh Reynolds > > wrote:
>>
>>> And illegal.
>>>
>>> - Josh
>>>
>>> On Jun 22, 2017 11:22 AM, "Mike Hammett"  wrote:
>>>
 We go from bad idea to worse?



 -
 Mike Hammett
 Intelligent Computing Solutions 
 
 
 
 
 Midwest Internet Exchange 
 
 
 
 The Brothers WISP 
 


 
 --
 *From: *"Kurt Fankhauser" 
 *To: *af@afmug.com
 *Sent: *Thursday, June 22, 2017 10:15:11 AM
 *Subject: *Re: [AFMUG] Ready for the Xbox one X and 100GB games?

 Can you block/throttle a VPN connection with DPI? Make it so that
 if the customer turns it on the VPN their connection gets worse than 
 with
 it off?

 On Wed, Jun 21, 2017 at 11:43 PM, Jeremy 
 wrote:

> On that point, we tell them that it is not our responsibility to
> track their specific usage.  We tell them that their are routers like 
> the
> Fortigate 

Re: [AFMUG] Ready for the Xbox one X and 100GB games?

[Mike Hammett]

I don't think blocking VPNs or SSL would be reasonable network management. I 
don't think outright blocking any legal content would be considered reasonable. 




- 
Mike Hammett 
Intelligent Computing Solutions 

Midwest Internet Exchange 

The Brothers WISP 




- Original Message -

From: "Sean Heskett"  
To: af@afmug.com 
Sent: Friday, June 23, 2017 7:20:13 PM 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Ready for the Xbox one X and 100GB games? 


I completely agree with you on all those points josh. It's a stupid thing to do 
for many reasons, but being illegal is not one of those reasons. 


I'm not picking a fight, just trying to clear the air about the legalities in 
regards to DPI rules to block or throttle a traffic type (such as VPN/SSL). a 
lot of folks don't understand that "reasonable network management" is protected 
by the FCC NN rules. 


-sean 




On Fri, Jun 23, 2017 at 5:33 PM, Josh Reynolds < j...@kyneticwifi.com > wrote: 




Listen, at the end of the day you're consider penalizing the very people who 
make it possible for you to operate, when in reality you should be trying to 
find ways to get the government to stop handing out cruise ships full of money 
to companies to continue doing the same old shit. 


People do not want UBB. Cable COs have been doing it for years to help stifle 
competition (online streaming) away from their money maker (cable tv + ad 
revenue). 


On Fri, Jun 23, 2017 at 6:21 PM, Josh Reynolds < j...@kyneticwifi.com > wrote: 




edit: s/can/can't/ 


On Fri, Jun 23, 2017 at 6:21 PM, Josh Reynolds < j...@kyneticwifi.com > wrote: 






Because you can discriminate based on traffic type except in the case of 
reasonable network management. Not to mention you will block every single 
telework user in the process, along with many other types of content riding on 
that tunnel. 


I'll say this, I would not be the one to want to try an explain "I block VPNs" 
to the FCC. You can have fun with that all you want. 


On Fri, Jun 23, 2017 at 6:17 PM, Sean Heskett < af...@zirkel.us > wrote: 





All of that is very true Eric and I completely agree with you. However, Josh 
said it was illegal and I was pointing out that it is expressly legal to do per 
the FCC NN rules. It's not smart or efficient at fixing the problem but it is 
legal to do. 


-Sean 






On Fri, Jun 23, 2017 at 3:26 PM, Eric Kuhnke < eric.kuh...@gmail.com > wrote: 





you go right ahead and do DPI / deprioritize all TLS type traffic, that is 
something I would highly encourage any of my competitors to do... Since a huge 
% of web traffic is https now, netflix is https/tls1.2, youtube is 
https/tls1.2, etc, all you would accomplish is hurting everyone's throughput 
for all of the most common websites and applications. 


On Fri, Jun 23, 2017 at 11:27 AM, Sean Heskett < af...@zirkel.us > wrote: 



how is it illegal? FCC says we can manage our networks as needed. 


On Fri, Jun 23, 2017 at 12:55 AM, Josh Reynolds < j...@kyneticwifi.com > wrote: 





And illegal. 


- Josh 




On Jun 22, 2017 11:22 AM, "Mike Hammett" < af...@ics-il.net > wrote: 






We go from bad idea to worse? 




- 
Mike Hammett 
Intelligent Computing Solutions 

Midwest Internet Exchange 

The Brothers WISP 






From: "Kurt Fankhauser" < lists.wavel...@gmail.com > 
To: af@afmug.com 
Sent: Thursday, June 22, 2017 10:15:11 AM 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Ready for the Xbox one X and 100GB games? 


Can you block/throttle a VPN connection with DPI? Make it so that if the 
customer turns it on the VPN their connection gets worse than with it off? 


On Wed, Jun 21, 2017 at 11:43 PM, Jeremy < jeremysmi...@gmail.com > wrote: 



On that point, we tell them that it is not our responsibility to track their 
specific usage. We tell them that their are routers like the Fortigate which 
can track usage, but that we do not support those devices. I tell them that I 
think the new Torch router does it too, but that we have no experience with 
these devices. "The only way that we track which websites are visited and what 
you are doing on the Internet is with a warrant or an order from the Department 
of Justice". We stand behind our usage tracking, and if they do not want to pay 
the bill then they can find another provider. We have lost two or three 
customers over four years who refuse to pay, and it usually isn't worth sending 
those ones to collections. We just go and collect our equipment and write it 
off as bad debt. 




On Wed, Jun 21, 2017 at 7:52 PM, Adam Moffett < dmmoff...@gmail.com > wrote: 


That's an interesting point. 


-- Original Message -- 
From: "Stefan Englhardt" < s...@genias.net > 
To: af@afmug.com ; "Wireless Administrator" < wirel...@htn.net > 
Sent: 6/21/2017 3:18:07 PM 


Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Ready for the Xbox one X and 100GB games? 





We fade out our usage based plans. *Every* single customer who had to pay 
surplus makes us a lot of work. Calls from each single family member, what IP 

Re: [AFMUG] Ready for the Xbox one X and 100GB games?

[Josh Reynolds]

Listen, at the end of the day you're consider penalizing the very people
who make it possible for you to operate, when in reality you should be
trying to find ways to get the government to stop handing out cruise ships
full of money to companies to continue doing the same old shit.

People do not want UBB.  Cable COs have been doing it for years to help
stifle competition (online streaming) away from their money maker (cable tv
+ ad revenue).

On Fri, Jun 23, 2017 at 6:21 PM, Josh Reynolds  wrote:

> edit: s/can/can't/
>
> On Fri, Jun 23, 2017 at 6:21 PM, Josh Reynolds 
> wrote:
>
>> Because you can discriminate based on traffic type except in the case of
>> reasonable network management.  Not to mention you will block every single
>> telework user in the process, along with many other types of content riding
>> on that tunnel.
>>
>> I'll say this, I would not be the one to want to try an explain "I block
>> VPNs" to the FCC.  You can have fun with that all you want.
>>
>> On Fri, Jun 23, 2017 at 6:17 PM, Sean Heskett  wrote:
>>
>>> All of that is very true Eric and I completely agree with you.  However,
>>> Josh said it was illegal and I was pointing out that it is expressly legal
>>> to do per the FCC NN rules.  It's not smart or efficient at fixing the
>>> problem but it is legal to do.
>>>
>>> -Sean
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Fri, Jun 23, 2017 at 3:26 PM, Eric Kuhnke 
>>> wrote:
>>>
 you go right ahead and do DPI / deprioritize all TLS type traffic, that
 is something I would highly encourage any of my competitors to do... Since
 a huge % of web traffic is https now, netflix is https/tls1.2, youtube is
 https/tls1.2, etc, all you would accomplish is hurting everyone's
 throughput for all of the most common websites and applications.

 On Fri, Jun 23, 2017 at 11:27 AM, Sean Heskett  wrote:

> how is it illegal?  FCC says we can manage our networks as needed.
>
> On Fri, Jun 23, 2017 at 12:55 AM, Josh Reynolds 
> wrote:
>
>> And illegal.
>>
>> - Josh
>>
>> On Jun 22, 2017 11:22 AM, "Mike Hammett"  wrote:
>>
>>> We go from bad idea to worse?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -
>>> Mike Hammett
>>> Intelligent Computing Solutions 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Midwest Internet Exchange 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> The Brothers WISP 
>>> 
>>>
>>>
>>> 
>>> --
>>> *From: *"Kurt Fankhauser" 
>>> *To: *af@afmug.com
>>> *Sent: *Thursday, June 22, 2017 10:15:11 AM
>>> *Subject: *Re: [AFMUG] Ready for the Xbox one X and 100GB games?
>>>
>>> Can you block/throttle a VPN connection with DPI? Make it so that if
>>> the customer turns it on the VPN their connection gets worse than with 
>>> it
>>> off?
>>>
>>> On Wed, Jun 21, 2017 at 11:43 PM, Jeremy 
>>> wrote:
>>>
 On that point, we tell them that it is not our responsibility to
 track their specific usage.  We tell them that their are routers like 
 the
 Fortigate which can track usage, but that we do not support those 
 devices.
 I tell them that I think the new Torch router does it too, but that we 
 have
 no experience with these devices.  "The only way that we track which
 websites are visited and what you are doing on the Internet is with a
 warrant or an order from the Department of Justice".  We stand behind 
 our
 usage tracking, and if they do not want to pay the bill then they can 
 find
 another provider.  We have lost two or three customers over four years 
 who
 refuse to pay, and it usually isn't worth sending those ones to
 collections.  We just go and collect our equipment and write it off as 
 bad
 debt.

 On Wed, Jun 21, 2017 at 7:52 PM, Adam Moffett 
 wrote:

> That's an interesting point.
>
>
> -- Original Message --
> From: "Stefan Englhardt" 
> To: af@afmug.com; "Wireless Administrator" 
> Sent: 6/21/2017 3:18:07 PM
> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Ready for the Xbox one X 

Re: [AFMUG] PMP450M: is there any indication of "sub-sector"

[Bill Prince]

Maybe a different way to say this is which beam? Since subs can be on any o
7 "beams", it would be nice to know which subscriber is on which beam.
Well, not exactly nice; more of a necessity.

If we can't see it now, perhaps it's on the roadmap?

-bp


On Fri, Jun 23, 2017 at 1:16 PM, Bill Prince  wrote:

> I thought I had read somewhere about a way to determine which subsector a
> subscriber is in, but now I can't find it. Maybe I was dreaming or
> something?
> --
> bp
> part15sbs{at}gmail{dot}com
>



-- 
--
bp
part15sbs{at}gmail{dot}com

Re: [AFMUG] Ready for the Xbox one X and 100GB games?

[Josh Reynolds]

edit: s/can/can't/

On Fri, Jun 23, 2017 at 6:21 PM, Josh Reynolds  wrote:

> Because you can discriminate based on traffic type except in the case of
> reasonable network management.  Not to mention you will block every single
> telework user in the process, along with many other types of content riding
> on that tunnel.
>
> I'll say this, I would not be the one to want to try an explain "I block
> VPNs" to the FCC.  You can have fun with that all you want.
>
> On Fri, Jun 23, 2017 at 6:17 PM, Sean Heskett  wrote:
>
>> All of that is very true Eric and I completely agree with you.  However,
>> Josh said it was illegal and I was pointing out that it is expressly legal
>> to do per the FCC NN rules.  It's not smart or efficient at fixing the
>> problem but it is legal to do.
>>
>> -Sean
>>
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Jun 23, 2017 at 3:26 PM, Eric Kuhnke 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> you go right ahead and do DPI / deprioritize all TLS type traffic, that
>>> is something I would highly encourage any of my competitors to do... Since
>>> a huge % of web traffic is https now, netflix is https/tls1.2, youtube is
>>> https/tls1.2, etc, all you would accomplish is hurting everyone's
>>> throughput for all of the most common websites and applications.
>>>
>>> On Fri, Jun 23, 2017 at 11:27 AM, Sean Heskett  wrote:
>>>
 how is it illegal?  FCC says we can manage our networks as needed.

 On Fri, Jun 23, 2017 at 12:55 AM, Josh Reynolds 
 wrote:

> And illegal.
>
> - Josh
>
> On Jun 22, 2017 11:22 AM, "Mike Hammett"  wrote:
>
>> We go from bad idea to worse?
>>
>>
>>
>> -
>> Mike Hammett
>> Intelligent Computing Solutions 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Midwest Internet Exchange 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> The Brothers WISP 
>> 
>>
>>
>> 
>> --
>> *From: *"Kurt Fankhauser" 
>> *To: *af@afmug.com
>> *Sent: *Thursday, June 22, 2017 10:15:11 AM
>> *Subject: *Re: [AFMUG] Ready for the Xbox one X and 100GB games?
>>
>> Can you block/throttle a VPN connection with DPI? Make it so that if
>> the customer turns it on the VPN their connection gets worse than with it
>> off?
>>
>> On Wed, Jun 21, 2017 at 11:43 PM, Jeremy 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On that point, we tell them that it is not our responsibility to
>>> track their specific usage.  We tell them that their are routers like 
>>> the
>>> Fortigate which can track usage, but that we do not support those 
>>> devices.
>>> I tell them that I think the new Torch router does it too, but that we 
>>> have
>>> no experience with these devices.  "The only way that we track which
>>> websites are visited and what you are doing on the Internet is with a
>>> warrant or an order from the Department of Justice".  We stand behind 
>>> our
>>> usage tracking, and if they do not want to pay the bill then they can 
>>> find
>>> another provider.  We have lost two or three customers over four years 
>>> who
>>> refuse to pay, and it usually isn't worth sending those ones to
>>> collections.  We just go and collect our equipment and write it off as 
>>> bad
>>> debt.
>>>
>>> On Wed, Jun 21, 2017 at 7:52 PM, Adam Moffett 
>>> wrote:
>>>
 That's an interesting point.


 -- Original Message --
 From: "Stefan Englhardt" 
 To: af@afmug.com; "Wireless Administrator" 
 Sent: 6/21/2017 3:18:07 PM
 Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Ready for the Xbox one X and 100GB games?

 We fade out our usage based plans. *Every* single customer who had
> to pay surplus makes us a lot of work. Calls from each single family
> member, what IP is this. Why cant you tell me what x.y.z.w is. I dont 
> use
> Akamai ...
> You have to take care there is no angry escalating dispute for a
> view Euros. I am sure this service times cost us more money than the
> customers had to pay surplus. We have to do flat pricing.
>
> On Wed, 21 Jun 2017 18:59:41 +
>  "Wireless Administrator"  wrote:
>

Re: [AFMUG] Ready for the Xbox one X and 100GB games?

[Josh Reynolds]

Because you can discriminate based on traffic type except in the case of
reasonable network management.  Not to mention you will block every single
telework user in the process, along with many other types of content riding
on that tunnel.

I'll say this, I would not be the one to want to try an explain "I block
VPNs" to the FCC.  You can have fun with that all you want.

On Fri, Jun 23, 2017 at 6:17 PM, Sean Heskett  wrote:

> All of that is very true Eric and I completely agree with you.  However,
> Josh said it was illegal and I was pointing out that it is expressly legal
> to do per the FCC NN rules.  It's not smart or efficient at fixing the
> problem but it is legal to do.
>
> -Sean
>
>
>
> On Fri, Jun 23, 2017 at 3:26 PM, Eric Kuhnke 
> wrote:
>
>> you go right ahead and do DPI / deprioritize all TLS type traffic, that
>> is something I would highly encourage any of my competitors to do... Since
>> a huge % of web traffic is https now, netflix is https/tls1.2, youtube is
>> https/tls1.2, etc, all you would accomplish is hurting everyone's
>> throughput for all of the most common websites and applications.
>>
>> On Fri, Jun 23, 2017 at 11:27 AM, Sean Heskett  wrote:
>>
>>> how is it illegal?  FCC says we can manage our networks as needed.
>>>
>>> On Fri, Jun 23, 2017 at 12:55 AM, Josh Reynolds 
>>> wrote:
>>>
 And illegal.

 - Josh

 On Jun 22, 2017 11:22 AM, "Mike Hammett"  wrote:

> We go from bad idea to worse?
>
>
>
> -
> Mike Hammett
> Intelligent Computing Solutions 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Midwest Internet Exchange 
> 
> 
> 
> The Brothers WISP 
> 
>
>
> 
> --
> *From: *"Kurt Fankhauser" 
> *To: *af@afmug.com
> *Sent: *Thursday, June 22, 2017 10:15:11 AM
> *Subject: *Re: [AFMUG] Ready for the Xbox one X and 100GB games?
>
> Can you block/throttle a VPN connection with DPI? Make it so that if
> the customer turns it on the VPN their connection gets worse than with it
> off?
>
> On Wed, Jun 21, 2017 at 11:43 PM, Jeremy 
> wrote:
>
>> On that point, we tell them that it is not our responsibility to
>> track their specific usage.  We tell them that their are routers like the
>> Fortigate which can track usage, but that we do not support those 
>> devices.
>> I tell them that I think the new Torch router does it too, but that we 
>> have
>> no experience with these devices.  "The only way that we track which
>> websites are visited and what you are doing on the Internet is with a
>> warrant or an order from the Department of Justice".  We stand behind our
>> usage tracking, and if they do not want to pay the bill then they can 
>> find
>> another provider.  We have lost two or three customers over four years 
>> who
>> refuse to pay, and it usually isn't worth sending those ones to
>> collections.  We just go and collect our equipment and write it off as 
>> bad
>> debt.
>>
>> On Wed, Jun 21, 2017 at 7:52 PM, Adam Moffett 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> That's an interesting point.
>>>
>>>
>>> -- Original Message --
>>> From: "Stefan Englhardt" 
>>> To: af@afmug.com; "Wireless Administrator" 
>>> Sent: 6/21/2017 3:18:07 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Ready for the Xbox one X and 100GB games?
>>>
>>> We fade out our usage based plans. *Every* single customer who had
 to pay surplus makes us a lot of work. Calls from each single family
 member, what IP is this. Why cant you tell me what x.y.z.w is. I dont 
 use
 Akamai ...
 You have to take care there is no angry escalating dispute for a
 view Euros. I am sure this service times cost us more money than the
 customers had to pay surplus. We have to do flat pricing.

 On Wed, 21 Jun 2017 18:59:41 +
  "Wireless Administrator"  wrote:

> This industry is in trouble.  Nobody wants usage based billing.
> Customers don’t want it for obvious reasons. ISP’s are afraid to 
> implement
> it for fear of losing customers.  If you lose money on an 

Re: [AFMUG] Ready for the Xbox one X and 100GB games?

[Sean Heskett]

All of that is very true Eric and I completely agree with you.  However,
Josh said it was illegal and I was pointing out that it is expressly legal
to do per the FCC NN rules.  It's not smart or efficient at fixing the
problem but it is legal to do.

-Sean



On Fri, Jun 23, 2017 at 3:26 PM, Eric Kuhnke  wrote:

> you go right ahead and do DPI / deprioritize all TLS type traffic, that is
> something I would highly encourage any of my competitors to do... Since a
> huge % of web traffic is https now, netflix is https/tls1.2, youtube is
> https/tls1.2, etc, all you would accomplish is hurting everyone's
> throughput for all of the most common websites and applications.
>
> On Fri, Jun 23, 2017 at 11:27 AM, Sean Heskett  wrote:
>
>> how is it illegal?  FCC says we can manage our networks as needed.
>>
>> On Fri, Jun 23, 2017 at 12:55 AM, Josh Reynolds 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> And illegal.
>>>
>>> - Josh
>>>
>>> On Jun 22, 2017 11:22 AM, "Mike Hammett"  wrote:
>>>
 We go from bad idea to worse?



 -
 Mike Hammett
 Intelligent Computing Solutions 
 
 
 
 
 Midwest Internet Exchange 
 
 
 
 The Brothers WISP 
 


 
 --
 *From: *"Kurt Fankhauser" 
 *To: *af@afmug.com
 *Sent: *Thursday, June 22, 2017 10:15:11 AM
 *Subject: *Re: [AFMUG] Ready for the Xbox one X and 100GB games?

 Can you block/throttle a VPN connection with DPI? Make it so that if
 the customer turns it on the VPN their connection gets worse than with it
 off?

 On Wed, Jun 21, 2017 at 11:43 PM, Jeremy 
 wrote:

> On that point, we tell them that it is not our responsibility to track
> their specific usage.  We tell them that their are routers like the
> Fortigate which can track usage, but that we do not support those devices.
> I tell them that I think the new Torch router does it too, but that we 
> have
> no experience with these devices.  "The only way that we track which
> websites are visited and what you are doing on the Internet is with a
> warrant or an order from the Department of Justice".  We stand behind our
> usage tracking, and if they do not want to pay the bill then they can find
> another provider.  We have lost two or three customers over four years who
> refuse to pay, and it usually isn't worth sending those ones to
> collections.  We just go and collect our equipment and write it off as bad
> debt.
>
> On Wed, Jun 21, 2017 at 7:52 PM, Adam Moffett 
> wrote:
>
>> That's an interesting point.
>>
>>
>> -- Original Message --
>> From: "Stefan Englhardt" 
>> To: af@afmug.com; "Wireless Administrator" 
>> Sent: 6/21/2017 3:18:07 PM
>> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Ready for the Xbox one X and 100GB games?
>>
>> We fade out our usage based plans. *Every* single customer who had to
>>> pay surplus makes us a lot of work. Calls from each single family 
>>> member,
>>> what IP is this. Why cant you tell me what x.y.z.w is. I dont use 
>>> Akamai ...
>>> You have to take care there is no angry escalating dispute for a
>>> view Euros. I am sure this service times cost us more money than the
>>> customers had to pay surplus. We have to do flat pricing.
>>>
>>> On Wed, 21 Jun 2017 18:59:41 +
>>>  "Wireless Administrator"  wrote:
>>>
 This industry is in trouble.  Nobody wants usage based billing.
 Customers don’t want it for obvious reasons. ISP’s are afraid to 
 implement
 it for fear of losing customers.  If you lose money on an account is it
 really an asset to your business? I feel that the Large ISP’s have 
 already
 implemented Usage Based Rate Adjustment. They seem to have an automated
 process to adjust rates that will force off the heavy users.  Our 
 industry
 will not get respect until it asks for it.  UBB or UBRA (New term I 
 coined)
 is the way ….



 Steve



 From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Mark - Myakka
 Technologies
 Sent: Wednesday, 

Re: [AFMUG] Best Home Wifi Router

[Josh Reynolds]

The Pro has been tested up to 250 clients with AirTime Fairness. The new
model has been designed for Xirrus-like density.

- Josh

On Jun 23, 2017 5:59 PM, "David Milholen"  wrote:

> Those are great.
>
> But how is the performance when some customers are utilizing maximum
> access and how do the other clients performance compare.
>
> Tried em and not impressed
>
> What does impress is the E500 burning through a crowd of people and block
> room under metal bleachers at 500' plus away.
>
> Each Pos and staff device was able to get 15Mbs of throughput.
>
> 20Mbs is the maximum allowed at the edge.
>
>
>
> On 6/20/2017 9:51 PM, Josh Reynolds wrote:
>
> Correction, should say UAP-AC-HD or UAP-AC-PRO, though there's another
> model I was only a letter off on ;)
>
> - Josh
>
> On Jun 20, 2017 9:33 PM, "Josh Reynolds"  wrote:
>
>> I would put a single UAP-AC-HD with MU-MIMO or a UAP-AC-HD up against
>> that for coverage and performance any day of the week. That said, a single
>> AP is normally a poor design choice for a larger home.
>>
>> I'm using between 4-6 APs at my hose at any one time depending on what
>> I'm messing with at the time. Low tx power, and more units normally means
>> superior coverage. UniFi does support 802.11r as well.
>>
>> For router, either a mikrotik or an edgerouter X.
>>
>> - Josh
>>
>> On Jun 20, 2017 9:03 PM, "David Milholen"  wrote:
>>
>> Depends on composition of wood..
>>
>> Getting on my soap-box with WIFI understanding. I am using my RF goggles
>> for this one.
>>
>> Just good signal(bars) isnt going to tell you how well performance is.
>> Adding more connected devices and other caveats like walls,
>>
>> floors, furniture, people and pets(lol) will degrade wifi access
>> solutions anytime anywhere.
>>
>> There is hope though. With better higher gain antennas and better mimo
>> radios along with a little magical beam steering and 802.11r modes
>>
>> magic performance can occur.
>>
>> I would look at the CN-pilot line like the E400/E500 and R201P units.
>> Currently the R201 and E500 that I mention have Dual band AC access.
>>
>> The E500 is an outdoor wifi access point to cover larger areas outside.
>>
>> We are really liking these products for Wifi access solutions.
>>
>> We once used the same Mikrotik gear even doing some tweaks on the
>> wireless configs still did not out perform the R201P
>>
>> Throw in an E400 to add complete coverage and viola wifi access with
>> superior performance connectivity.
>>
>>
>> On 6/19/2017 1:56 PM, Matt wrote:
>>
>> We have used both the RB951Ui-2HnD and RB952Ui-5ac2nD on occasions
>> when we provided a managed router but was wandering if the more
>> expensive RB2011UiAS-2HnD-IN with actual antennas performed much
>> better?  Have customers blame us when there wifi does not reach
>> everywhere in there house.
>>
>> Is placing the router in the basement of a wood frame house going to
>> drastically reduce range?
>>
>>
>> --
>>
>>
>>
> --
>

Re: [AFMUG] Target Practice

[David Milholen]

Hey thats my line :)



On 6/21/2017 1:03 PM, Robert Andrews wrote:

Hold my beer

On 06/21/2017 11:00 AM, Bill Prince wrote:

As in "Hey Bubba, watch this!"


bp


On 6/21/2017 10:38 AM, Chris Wright wrote:


My tech�s notes:

Found the cable at the bottom of the utility pole shredded. Customer
had targets on pole and it looks like it was shot with a shotgun.

�

Chris Wright

Network Administrator

�





--

Re: [AFMUG] Best Home Wifi Router

[David Milholen]

Those are great.

But how is the performance when some customers are utilizing maximum 
access and how do the other clients performance compare.


Tried em and not impressed

What does impress is the E500 burning through a crowd of people and 
block room under metal bleachers at 500' plus away.


Each Pos and staff device was able to get 15Mbs of throughput.

20Mbs is the maximum allowed at the edge.



On 6/20/2017 9:51 PM, Josh Reynolds wrote:
Correction, should say UAP-AC-HD or UAP-AC-PRO, though there's another 
model I was only a letter off on ;)


- Josh

On Jun 20, 2017 9:33 PM, "Josh Reynolds" > wrote:


I would put a single UAP-AC-HD with MU-MIMO or a UAP-AC-HD up
against that for coverage and performance any day of the week.
That said, a single AP is normally a poor design choice for a
larger home.

I'm using between 4-6 APs at my hose at any one time depending on
what I'm messing with at the time. Low tx power, and more units
normally means superior coverage. UniFi does support 802.11r as well.

For router, either a mikrotik or an edgerouter X.

- Josh

On Jun 20, 2017 9:03 PM, "David Milholen" > wrote:

Depends on composition of wood..

Getting on my soap-box with WIFI understanding. I am using my
RF goggles for this one.

Just good signal(bars) isnt going to tell you how well
performance is. Adding more connected devices and other
caveats like walls,

floors, furniture, people and pets(lol) will degrade wifi
access solutions anytime anywhere.

There is hope though. With better higher gain antennas and
better mimo radios along with a little magical beam steering
and 802.11r modes

magic performance can occur.

I would look at the CN-pilot line like the E400/E500 and R201P
units. Currently the R201 and E500 that I mention have Dual
band AC access.

The E500 is an outdoor wifi access point to cover larger areas
outside.

We are really liking these products for Wifi access solutions.

We once used the same Mikrotik gear even doing some tweaks on
the wireless configs still did not out perform the R201P

Throw in an E400 to add complete coverage and viola wifi
access with superior performance connectivity.


On 6/19/2017 1:56 PM, Matt wrote:

We have used both the RB951Ui-2HnD and RB952Ui-5ac2nD on occasions
when we provided a managed router but was wandering if the more
expensive RB2011UiAS-2HnD-IN with actual antennas performed much
better?  Have customers blame us when there wifi does not reach
everywhere in there house.

Is placing the router in the basement of a wood frame house going to
drastically reduce range?


-- 





--

Re: [AFMUG] Ready for the Xbox one X and 100GB games?

[Eric Kuhnke]

you go right ahead and do DPI / deprioritize all TLS type traffic, that is
something I would highly encourage any of my competitors to do... Since a
huge % of web traffic is https now, netflix is https/tls1.2, youtube is
https/tls1.2, etc, all you would accomplish is hurting everyone's
throughput for all of the most common websites and applications.

On Fri, Jun 23, 2017 at 11:27 AM, Sean Heskett  wrote:

> how is it illegal?  FCC says we can manage our networks as needed.
>
> On Fri, Jun 23, 2017 at 12:55 AM, Josh Reynolds 
> wrote:
>
>> And illegal.
>>
>> - Josh
>>
>> On Jun 22, 2017 11:22 AM, "Mike Hammett"  wrote:
>>
>>> We go from bad idea to worse?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -
>>> Mike Hammett
>>> Intelligent Computing Solutions 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Midwest Internet Exchange 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> The Brothers WISP 
>>> 
>>>
>>>
>>> 
>>> --
>>> *From: *"Kurt Fankhauser" 
>>> *To: *af@afmug.com
>>> *Sent: *Thursday, June 22, 2017 10:15:11 AM
>>> *Subject: *Re: [AFMUG] Ready for the Xbox one X and 100GB games?
>>>
>>> Can you block/throttle a VPN connection with DPI? Make it so that if the
>>> customer turns it on the VPN their connection gets worse than with it off?
>>>
>>> On Wed, Jun 21, 2017 at 11:43 PM, Jeremy  wrote:
>>>
 On that point, we tell them that it is not our responsibility to track
 their specific usage.  We tell them that their are routers like the
 Fortigate which can track usage, but that we do not support those devices.
 I tell them that I think the new Torch router does it too, but that we have
 no experience with these devices.  "The only way that we track which
 websites are visited and what you are doing on the Internet is with a
 warrant or an order from the Department of Justice".  We stand behind our
 usage tracking, and if they do not want to pay the bill then they can find
 another provider.  We have lost two or three customers over four years who
 refuse to pay, and it usually isn't worth sending those ones to
 collections.  We just go and collect our equipment and write it off as bad
 debt.

 On Wed, Jun 21, 2017 at 7:52 PM, Adam Moffett 
 wrote:

> That's an interesting point.
>
>
> -- Original Message --
> From: "Stefan Englhardt" 
> To: af@afmug.com; "Wireless Administrator" 
> Sent: 6/21/2017 3:18:07 PM
> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Ready for the Xbox one X and 100GB games?
>
> We fade out our usage based plans. *Every* single customer who had to
>> pay surplus makes us a lot of work. Calls from each single family member,
>> what IP is this. Why cant you tell me what x.y.z.w is. I dont use Akamai 
>> ...
>> You have to take care there is no angry escalating dispute for a view
>> Euros. I am sure this service times cost us more money than the customers
>> had to pay surplus. We have to do flat pricing.
>>
>> On Wed, 21 Jun 2017 18:59:41 +
>>  "Wireless Administrator"  wrote:
>>
>>> This industry is in trouble.  Nobody wants usage based billing.
>>> Customers don’t want it for obvious reasons. ISP’s are afraid to 
>>> implement
>>> it for fear of losing customers.  If you lose money on an account is it
>>> really an asset to your business? I feel that the Large ISP’s have 
>>> already
>>> implemented Usage Based Rate Adjustment. They seem to have an automated
>>> process to adjust rates that will force off the heavy users.  Our 
>>> industry
>>> will not get respect until it asks for it.  UBB or UBRA (New term I 
>>> coined)
>>> is the way ….
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Steve
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Mark - Myakka
>>> Technologies
>>> Sent: Wednesday, June 21, 2017 2:07 PM
>>> To: Simon Westlake
>>> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Ready for the Xbox one X and 100GB games?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Simon,
>>>
>>> But metered billing makes them think about what they are doing.
>>> Does the baby need to be falling asleep watching a 4K movie?  The best 
>>> way
>>> I can put it is renting an apartment with utilities included.  If I'm
>>> renting an apartment in FL with electric included, my AC is 

Re: [AFMUG] Mistake: Crimping With PoE Connected?

[Mathew Howard]

I've done this hundreds of times with the normal stock UBNT or ePMP power
supplies... I've never seen it hurt one yet. Obviously you want to avoid
doing it with something like a Netonix switch (or anything that you don't
consider disposable, really). I've also done it to MikroTik RB750UPs, and
that kind of thing a few times by accident, and it usually doesn't hurt
them, but it's certainly something you want to avoid doing anyway. Like
others have said, it will break a Netonix switch, and probably some other
stuff as well... but if all you're talking about is a PoE for an SM... who
cares? on the off chance that it does kill it, just replace it. It's worth
the risk to not have to go inside a customer's house and unplug it :P

On Fri, Jun 23, 2017 at 3:09 PM, David Coudron  wrote:

> Yep, when we saw the spark we remembered pretty quickly the stupid switch
> was still plugged in.  Guess you have to mess up once in awhile to help
> remember…. 
>
>
>
> *David Coudron*
>
> david.coud...@advantenon.com  |  *Mobile: *612-991-7474 <(612)%20991-7474>
>
>
>
> *Advantenon, Inc.  *   [image: cid:image001.png@01CEE562.60FF8FC0]
>   [image:
> cid:image002.png@01CEE562.60FF8FC0]   
> [image:
> cid:image003.png@01CEE562.60FF8FC0]   
> [image:
> cid:image004.png@01CEE562.60FF8FC0] 
>
> i...@advantenon.com  |  3500 Vicksburg Lane N, Suite 315, Plymouth, MN
> 55447  |  www.advantenon.com  |  *Phone:* 800-704-4720 <(800)%20704-4720>
>  |  *Local: *612-454-1545 <(612)%20454-1545>
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] *On Behalf Of *Chris Fabien
> *Sent:* Friday, June 23, 2017 1:12 PM
> *To:* af@afmug.com
> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Mistake: Crimping With PoE Connected?
>
>
>
> You should avoid doing this. The POEs all have overcurrent protection and
> will shut down, but if you have an ethernet device on the other side it is
> possible to blow the port if you short the pins in just the right way.
>
>
>
> On Fri, Jun 23, 2017 at 1:45 PM, David Coudron <
> david.coud...@advantenon.com> wrote:
>
> We did the same with a Netonix.  Pretty sure the port is shot.  Might be
> OK after a reboot of the switch but never tested very heavily since we
> didn't need the port.
>
>
>
> Get Outlook for iOS 
> --
>
> *From:* Af  on behalf of Christopher Gray <
> cg...@graytechsoftware.com>
> *Sent:* Friday, June 23, 2017 12:07:53 PM
> *To:* af@afmug.com
> *Subject:* [AFMUG] Mistake: Crimping With PoE Connected?
>
>
>
> So, I made a mistake and crimped a cable end while the PoE was still
> connected to the other end (Cambium ePMP gigabit PoE). I saw a small spark
> while the crimper hit the contacts.
>
>
>
> I expected to have to re-do the end and possibly replace the PoE, but
> everything was fine.
>
>
>
> Are some injectors just less sensitive than others? I hear a Netonix will
> lose a port if you do that. Are there any crimpers with non-conductive dies?
>
>
>
> -Chris
>
>
>
>
>

[AFMUG] PMP450M: is there any indication of "sub-sector"

[Bill Prince]

I thought I had read somewhere about a way to determine which subsector a
subscriber is in, but now I can't find it. Maybe I was dreaming or
something?
--
bp
part15sbs{at}gmail{dot}com

Re: [AFMUG] Mistake: Crimping With PoE Connected?

[David Coudron]

Yep, when we saw the spark we remembered pretty quickly the stupid switch was 
still plugged in.  Guess you have to mess up once in awhile to help remember…. 

David Coudron
david.coud...@advantenon.com  |  Mobile: 
612-991-7474

Advantenon, Inc. [cid:image001.png@01CEE562.60FF8FC0] 
   
[cid:image002.png@01CEE562.60FF8FC0]    
[cid:image003.png@01CEE562.60FF8FC0]    
[cid:image004.png@01CEE562.60FF8FC0] 
i...@advantenon.com  |  3500 Vicksburg Lane N, 
Suite 315, Plymouth, MN 55447  |  
www.advantenon.com  |  Phone: 800-704-4720  |  
Local: 612-454-1545

[cid:image010.jpg@01D2EC32.9ACE0A80]

From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Chris Fabien
Sent: Friday, June 23, 2017 1:12 PM
To: af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Mistake: Crimping With PoE Connected?

You should avoid doing this. The POEs all have overcurrent protection and will 
shut down, but if you have an ethernet device on the other side it is possible 
to blow the port if you short the pins in just the right way.

On Fri, Jun 23, 2017 at 1:45 PM, David Coudron 
> wrote:
We did the same with a Netonix.  Pretty sure the port is shot.  Might be OK 
after a reboot of the switch but never tested very heavily since we didn't need 
the port.

Get Outlook for iOS

From: Af > on behalf of 
Christopher Gray >
Sent: Friday, June 23, 2017 12:07:53 PM
To: af@afmug.com
Subject: [AFMUG] Mistake: Crimping With PoE Connected?

So, I made a mistake and crimped a cable end while the PoE was still connected 
to the other end (Cambium ePMP gigabit PoE). I saw a small spark while the 
crimper hit the contacts.

I expected to have to re-do the end and possibly replace the PoE, but 
everything was fine.

Are some injectors just less sensitive than others? I hear a Netonix will lose 
a port if you do that. Are there any crimpers with non-conductive dies?

-Chris

Re: [AFMUG] Calix 844GE

[George Skorup]

It comes down to them not listening to me in the beginning about doing 
BiDi when a consultant filled their heads with "everyone needs 1Gbps FDX 
all the time." Apparently they didn't understand that BiDi WDM *is* 
1Gbps FDX. Now about 40 customers in, they see the light (pun intended). 
Nobody is using more than 80-90Mbps sustained. I'm very sure we can do 
16 split 2.5G PONs without issue.


On 6/23/2017 2:11 AM, Sorin Esanu wrote:

Hi,

I am assuming below that you want to start with Active Ethernet, then migrate 
to GPON. If that is not your use case, ignore the rest of this reply.

844GE can do both Active Ethernet and GPON. The drawbacks are:
- you are not able to install more than 2x 844GE per AE CSFP, as AE is a point 
to point technology. So be aware when you do the planning, as you cannot really 
mix AE and GPON. And each 844GE in AE mode will use one fiber.
- AE and GPON use different SFPs and different ports on the card, so you will 
need different cards in your 2 scenarios, to achieve some density: AE - GE-24, 
GPON - GPON-8. Plus different optics (CSFP vs GPON).

You might end with a more expensive deployment doing AE then converting to GPON 
than just doing GPON from the start, if that’s where you want to get in the end.


On 23 Jun 2017, at 04:28, George Skorup  wrote:

Anybody deploying these? I finally got the folks writing the checks on the GPON 
bandwagon. Looks like they want to go all-out with a full Calix infrastructure. 
So we're going to install the 844GE's at the existing customers and temporarily 
convert to BiDi, then GPON later as it grows. So I need to get some BiDi SFPs. 
I want Tx 1490 / Rx 1310 at the head-end.. right? That's what it looks like to 
me, just want to make sure I'm not being stupid.

Re: [AFMUG] List Tech Support

[Jaime Solorza]

Homey don't Facebook

Jaime Solorza

On Jun 23, 2017 1:23 PM, "Chuck McCown"  wrote:

> That’s fine for the girls...
>
> *From:* Mike Hammett
> *Sent:* Friday, June 23, 2017 1:16 PM
> *To:* af@afmug.com
> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] List Tech Support
>
> I think most of the chat has moved to FB.
>
>
>
> -
> Mike Hammett
> Intelligent Computing Solutions 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Midwest Internet Exchange 
> 
> 
> 
> The Brothers WISP 
> 
>
>
> 
> --
> *From: *"Timothy Steele" 
> *To: *af@afmug.com
> *Sent: *Friday, June 23, 2017 1:59:46 PM
> *Subject: *Re: [AFMUG] List Tech Support
>
> This mail list seems dead lately anyway.. might as well go to the official
> sites now
>
> On Fri, Jun 23, 2017, 2:40 PM Adam Moffett  wrote:
>
>> One of my associates is subscribed to this list but doesn't receive any
>> mail from it.  It's possible he had some mail server issues in the past
>> which may have generated bounces or some other issue that could have
>> resulted in getting flagged somehow.
>>
>> I'm wondering who I should ask about this.  Paul McCall?
>>
>>
>>
>
>

Re: [AFMUG] Mistake: Crimping With PoE Connected?

[Jay Weekley]

I wish I didn't have to turn the power off on a port just to unplug the 
radio as well.


Mike Hammett wrote:

Netonix is junk in that regard. No short circuit protection.



-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions 

Midwest Internet Exchange 

The Brothers WISP 





*From: *"David Coudron" 
*To: *af@afmug.com, af@afmug.com
*Sent: *Friday, June 23, 2017 12:45:36 PM
*Subject: *Re: [AFMUG] Mistake: Crimping With PoE Connected?

We did the same with a Netonix.  Pretty sure the port is shot.  Might 
be OK after a reboot of the switch but never tested very heavily since 
we didn't need the port.


Get Outlook for iOS 

*From:* Af  on behalf of Christopher Gray 


*Sent:* Friday, June 23, 2017 12:07:53 PM
*To:* af@afmug.com
*Subject:* [AFMUG] Mistake: Crimping With PoE Connected?
So, I made a mistake and crimped a cable end while the PoE was still 
connected to the other end (Cambium ePMP gigabit PoE). I saw a small 
spark while the crimper hit the contacts.


I expected to have to re-do the end and possibly replace the PoE, but 
everything was fine.


Are some injectors just less sensitive than others? I hear a Netonix 
will lose a port if you do that. Are there any crimpers with 
non-conductive dies?


-Chris



 
	Virus-free. www.avg.com 
 



<#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2>

Re: [AFMUG] List Tech Support

[Chuck McCown]

That’s fine for the girls...

From: Mike Hammett 
Sent: Friday, June 23, 2017 1:16 PM
To: af@afmug.com 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] List Tech Support

I think most of the chat has moved to FB.




-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions

Midwest Internet Exchange

The Brothers WISP








From: "Timothy Steele" 
To: af@afmug.com
Sent: Friday, June 23, 2017 1:59:46 PM
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] List Tech Support


This mail list seems dead lately anyway.. might as well go to the official 
sites now



On Fri, Jun 23, 2017, 2:40 PM Adam Moffett  wrote:

  One of my associates is subscribed to this list but doesn't receive any mail 
from it.  It's possible he had some mail server issues in the past which may 
have generated bounces or some other issue that could have resulted in getting 
flagged somehow. 

  I'm wondering who I should ask about this.  Paul McCall?

Re: [AFMUG] List Tech Support

[Chuck McCown]

Yep, Paul.  They have to look to make sure they have responded to the Amazon 
email.  If that was overlooked or went to spam they will not receive traffic.  

From: Adam Moffett 
Sent: Friday, June 23, 2017 12:40 PM
To: Animal Farm 
Subject: [AFMUG] List Tech Support

One of my associates is subscribed to this list but doesn't receive any mail 
from it.  It's possible he had some mail server issues in the past which may 
have generated bounces or some other issue that could have resulted in getting 
flagged somehow. 

I'm wondering who I should ask about this.  Paul McCall?

Re: [AFMUG] List Tech Support

[Chuck McCown]

It is about as busy as ever.

From: Adam Moffett 
Sent: Friday, June 23, 2017 1:03 PM
To: af@afmug.com 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] List Tech Support

Blasphemer


-- Original Message --
From: "Timothy Steele" 
To: af@afmug.com
Sent: 6/23/2017 2:59:46 PM
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] List Tech Support

  This mail list seems dead lately anyway.. might as well go to the official 
sites now



  On Fri, Jun 23, 2017, 2:40 PM Adam Moffett  wrote:

One of my associates is subscribed to this list but doesn't receive any 
mail from it.  It's possible he had some mail server issues in the past which 
may have generated bounces or some other issue that could have resulted in 
getting flagged somehow. 

I'm wondering who I should ask about this.  Paul McCall?

Re: [AFMUG] List Tech Support

[Mike Hammett]

I think most of the chat has moved to FB. 




- 
Mike Hammett 
Intelligent Computing Solutions 

Midwest Internet Exchange 

The Brothers WISP 




- Original Message -

From: "Timothy Steele"  
To: af@afmug.com 
Sent: Friday, June 23, 2017 1:59:46 PM 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] List Tech Support 


This mail list seems dead lately anyway.. might as well go to the official 
sites now 


On Fri, Jun 23, 2017, 2:40 PM Adam Moffett < dmmoff...@gmail.com > wrote: 



One of my associates is subscribed to this list but doesn't receive any mail 
from it. It's possible he had some mail server issues in the past which may 
have generated bounces or some other issue that could have resulted in getting 
flagged somehow. 


I'm wondering who I should ask about this. Paul McCall? 

Re: [AFMUG] List Tech Support

[Adam Moffett]

Blasphemer


-- Original Message --
From: "Timothy Steele" 
To: af@afmug.com
Sent: 6/23/2017 2:59:46 PM
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] List Tech Support

This mail list seems dead lately anyway.. might as well go to the 
official sites now



On Fri, Jun 23, 2017, 2:40 PM Adam Moffett  wrote:
One of my associates is subscribed to this list but doesn't receive 
any mail from it.  It's possible he had some mail server issues in the 
past which may have generated bounces or some other issue that could 
have resulted in getting flagged somehow.


I'm wondering who I should ask about this.  Paul McCall?

Re: [AFMUG] List Tech Support

[Timothy Steele]

This mail list seems dead lately anyway.. might as well go to the official
sites now

On Fri, Jun 23, 2017, 2:40 PM Adam Moffett  wrote:

> One of my associates is subscribed to this list but doesn't receive any
> mail from it.  It's possible he had some mail server issues in the past
> which may have generated bounces or some other issue that could have
> resulted in getting flagged somehow.
>
> I'm wondering who I should ask about this.  Paul McCall?
>
>
>

Re: [AFMUG] Mistake: Crimping With PoE Connected?

[Mike Hammett]

Netonix is junk in that regard. No short circuit protection. 




- 
Mike Hammett 
Intelligent Computing Solutions 

Midwest Internet Exchange 

The Brothers WISP 




- Original Message -

From: "David Coudron"  
To: af@afmug.com, af@afmug.com 
Sent: Friday, June 23, 2017 12:45:36 PM 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Mistake: Crimping With PoE Connected? 




We did the same with a Netonix. Pretty sure the port is shot. Might be OK after 
a reboot of the switch but never tested very heavily since we didn't need the 
port. 


Get Outlook for iOS 

From: Af  on behalf of Christopher Gray 
 
Sent: Friday, June 23, 2017 12:07:53 PM 
To: af@afmug.com 
Subject: [AFMUG] Mistake: Crimping With PoE Connected? 


So, I made a mistake and crimped a cable end while the PoE was still connected 
to the other end (Cambium ePMP gigabit PoE). I saw a small spark while the 
crimper hit the contacts. 


I expected to have to re-do the end and possibly replace the PoE, but 
everything was fine. 


Are some injectors just less sensitive than others? I hear a Netonix will lose 
a port if you do that. Are there any crimpers with non-conductive dies? 


-Chris 

Re: [AFMUG] Simple licensed antenna install question

[Adam Moffett]

remove it.  It's just keeping the waveguide clean during shipping and 
storage, and will interfere with signal if left in place.


-- Original Message --
From: "Colin Stanners" 
To: "af@afmug.com" 
Sent: 6/23/2017 2:46:36 PM
Subject: [AFMUG] Simple licensed antenna install question

It's been a while since we installed a licensed antenna, we're all so 
busy with fiber, so no one remembers... is the tape at the back of the 
dish covering the waveguide hole supposed to be left there, or should 
it be removed before install?

[AFMUG] Simple licensed antenna install question

[Colin Stanners]

It's been a while since we installed a licensed antenna, we're all so busy
with fiber, so no one remembers... is the tape at the back of the dish
covering the waveguide hole supposed to be left there, or should it be
removed before install?

[AFMUG] List Tech Support

[Adam Moffett]

One of my associates is subscribed to this list but doesn't receive any 
mail from it.  It's possible he had some mail server issues in the past 
which may have generated bounces or some other issue that could have 
resulted in getting flagged somehow.


I'm wondering who I should ask about this.  Paul McCall?

Re: [AFMUG] Ready for the Xbox one X and 100GB games?

[Sean Heskett]

how is it illegal?  FCC says we can manage our networks as needed.

On Fri, Jun 23, 2017 at 12:55 AM, Josh Reynolds 
wrote:

> And illegal.
>
> - Josh
>
> On Jun 22, 2017 11:22 AM, "Mike Hammett"  wrote:
>
>> We go from bad idea to worse?
>>
>>
>>
>> -
>> Mike Hammett
>> Intelligent Computing Solutions 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Midwest Internet Exchange 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> The Brothers WISP 
>> 
>>
>>
>> 
>> --
>> *From: *"Kurt Fankhauser" 
>> *To: *af@afmug.com
>> *Sent: *Thursday, June 22, 2017 10:15:11 AM
>> *Subject: *Re: [AFMUG] Ready for the Xbox one X and 100GB games?
>>
>> Can you block/throttle a VPN connection with DPI? Make it so that if the
>> customer turns it on the VPN their connection gets worse than with it off?
>>
>> On Wed, Jun 21, 2017 at 11:43 PM, Jeremy  wrote:
>>
>>> On that point, we tell them that it is not our responsibility to track
>>> their specific usage.  We tell them that their are routers like the
>>> Fortigate which can track usage, but that we do not support those devices.
>>> I tell them that I think the new Torch router does it too, but that we have
>>> no experience with these devices.  "The only way that we track which
>>> websites are visited and what you are doing on the Internet is with a
>>> warrant or an order from the Department of Justice".  We stand behind our
>>> usage tracking, and if they do not want to pay the bill then they can find
>>> another provider.  We have lost two or three customers over four years who
>>> refuse to pay, and it usually isn't worth sending those ones to
>>> collections.  We just go and collect our equipment and write it off as bad
>>> debt.
>>>
>>> On Wed, Jun 21, 2017 at 7:52 PM, Adam Moffett 
>>> wrote:
>>>
 That's an interesting point.


 -- Original Message --
 From: "Stefan Englhardt" 
 To: af@afmug.com; "Wireless Administrator" 
 Sent: 6/21/2017 3:18:07 PM
 Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Ready for the Xbox one X and 100GB games?

 We fade out our usage based plans. *Every* single customer who had to
> pay surplus makes us a lot of work. Calls from each single family member,
> what IP is this. Why cant you tell me what x.y.z.w is. I dont use Akamai 
> ...
> You have to take care there is no angry escalating dispute for a view
> Euros. I am sure this service times cost us more money than the customers
> had to pay surplus. We have to do flat pricing.
>
> On Wed, 21 Jun 2017 18:59:41 +
>  "Wireless Administrator"  wrote:
>
>> This industry is in trouble.  Nobody wants usage based billing.
>> Customers don’t want it for obvious reasons. ISP’s are afraid to 
>> implement
>> it for fear of losing customers.  If you lose money on an account is it
>> really an asset to your business? I feel that the Large ISP’s have 
>> already
>> implemented Usage Based Rate Adjustment. They seem to have an automated
>> process to adjust rates that will force off the heavy users.  Our 
>> industry
>> will not get respect until it asks for it.  UBB or UBRA (New term I 
>> coined)
>> is the way ….
>>
>>
>>
>> Steve
>>
>>
>>
>> From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Mark - Myakka
>> Technologies
>> Sent: Wednesday, June 21, 2017 2:07 PM
>> To: Simon Westlake
>> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Ready for the Xbox one X and 100GB games?
>>
>>
>>
>> Simon,
>>
>> But metered billing makes them think about what they are doing.  Does
>> the baby need to be falling asleep watching a 4K movie?  The best way I 
>> can
>> put it is renting an apartment with utilities included.  If I'm renting 
>> an
>> apartment in FL with electric included, my AC is going to be set at 68
>> 24/7.  The cat will be very comfortable all day, why should I care.
>> However, if I'm paying for electric, the cat will have to deal with 78
>> during the day and I may have to deal with 72 when I get home.
>>
>> Bandwidth prices are dropping for some, but for others it is still
>> expensive.  Not to mention the HW costs to upgrade your network to handle
>> the higher bandwidth internally.
>> 4K tvs cost more to buy than 1080  or 720 TV's.  Why should someone
>> who 

Re: [AFMUG] Mistake: Crimping With PoE Connected?

[Chris Fabien]

You should avoid doing this. The POEs all have overcurrent protection and
will shut down, but if you have an ethernet device on the other side it is
possible to blow the port if you short the pins in just the right way.

On Fri, Jun 23, 2017 at 1:45 PM, David Coudron  wrote:

> We did the same with a Netonix.  Pretty sure the port is shot.  Might be
> OK after a reboot of the switch but never tested very heavily since we
> didn't need the port.
>
> Get Outlook for iOS 
> --
> *From:* Af  on behalf of Christopher Gray <
> cg...@graytechsoftware.com>
> *Sent:* Friday, June 23, 2017 12:07:53 PM
> *To:* af@afmug.com
> *Subject:* [AFMUG] Mistake: Crimping With PoE Connected?
>
> So, I made a mistake and crimped a cable end while the PoE was still
> connected to the other end (Cambium ePMP gigabit PoE). I saw a small spark
> while the crimper hit the contacts.
>
> I expected to have to re-do the end and possibly replace the PoE, but
> everything was fine.
>
> Are some injectors just less sensitive than others? I hear a Netonix will
> lose a port if you do that. Are there any crimpers with non-conductive dies?
>
> -Chris
>
>

Re: [AFMUG] New solar pricing

[Robert Andrews]

Drat, just spent $0.66/watt yesterday!   But then I like to pick them up 
myself..


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Re: [AFMUG] Mistake: Crimping With PoE Connected?

[David Coudron]

We did the same with a Netonix.  Pretty sure the port is shot.  Might be OK 
after a reboot of the switch but never tested very heavily since we didn't need 
the port.

Get Outlook for iOS

From: Af  on behalf of Christopher Gray 

Sent: Friday, June 23, 2017 12:07:53 PM
To: af@afmug.com
Subject: [AFMUG] Mistake: Crimping With PoE Connected?

So, I made a mistake and crimped a cable end while the PoE was still connected 
to the other end (Cambium ePMP gigabit PoE). I saw a small spark while the 
crimper hit the contacts.

I expected to have to re-do the end and possibly replace the PoE, but 
everything was fine.

Are some injectors just less sensitive than others? I hear a Netonix will lose 
a port if you do that. Are there any crimpers with non-conductive dies?

-Chris

Re: [AFMUG] Avoid 'make ready' by using my own poles

[Adam Moffett]

This is going to be an ignorant question, but what is the clearance 
zone?



-- Original Message --
From: ch...@wbmfg.com
To: af@afmug.com
Sent: 6/23/2017 1:16:21 PM
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Avoid 'make ready' by using my own poles


You can’t force them to use your pole.
Your pole cannot encroach on the clearance zone.

You can always put your own poles in ROW that is clear from other pole 
lines.

Across the street is probably fine depending on easements.

You can always go underground for a span or two.  That will be less 
expensive.


From:Adam Moffett
Sent: Friday, June 23, 2017 11:09 AM
To:af@afmug.com
Subject: [AFMUG] Avoid 'make ready' by using my own poles

So, our most common make ready issue so far has been old poles that are 
relatively short and we can't stay the required distance from the power 
equipment and also be far enough above the existing phone line.  
Sometimes we can use a standoff or other solutions to avoid the issue, 
but sometimes the pole needs to be replaced.  It's never less than 
$5,000, could be as much as $10,000.


What I'm wondering is this:  We can get a new 35' pole for $800.  We 
can get a new 50' pole for $1500.  Is there any reason I couldn't just 
avoid make ready expense by setting our own pole instead of using 
theirs?  Even with guy wires, permit, and easements it's almost 
guaranteed to be less expensive.  Maybe I would put a 35 footer on the 
opposite side of the road, for example.  Or maybe we set the new 50 
footer right next to theirs and even let them move onto our pole if 
they want to.  It seems too easy and I'm wondering if there's a catch 
I'm not thinking of.

Re: [AFMUG] Avoid 'make ready' by using my own poles

[Jason McKemie]

Not sure if it will make any difference in your situation, but if you use
something like ADSS you can get closer to the neutral.  I went in between
the neutral and AT's copper on one run (I had guys doing it that were
certified for that zone).

-Jason

On Fri, Jun 23, 2017 at 12:09 PM, Adam Moffett  wrote:

> So, our most common make ready issue so far has been old poles that are
> relatively short and we can't stay the required distance from the power
> equipment and also be far enough above the existing phone line.  Sometimes
> we can use a standoff or other solutions to avoid the issue, but sometimes
> the pole needs to be replaced.  It's never less than $5,000, could be as
> much as $10,000.
>
> What I'm wondering is this:  We can get a new 35' pole for $800.  We can
> get a new 50' pole for $1500.  Is there any reason I couldn't just avoid
> make ready expense by setting our own pole instead of using theirs?  Even
> with guy wires, permit, and easements it's almost guaranteed to be less
> expensive.  Maybe I would put a 35 footer on the opposite side of the road,
> for example.  Or maybe we set the new 50 footer right next to theirs and
> even let them move onto our pole if they want to.  It seems too easy and
> I'm wondering if there's a catch I'm not thinking of.
>
>
>

Re: [AFMUG] Avoid 'make ready' by using my own poles

[chuck]

You can’t force them to use your pole.
Your pole cannot encroach on the clearance zone.

You can always put your own poles in ROW that is clear from other pole lines.  
Across the street is probably fine depending on easements.  

You can always go underground for a span or two.  That will be less expensive.  

From: Adam Moffett 
Sent: Friday, June 23, 2017 11:09 AM
To: af@afmug.com 
Subject: [AFMUG] Avoid 'make ready' by using my own poles

So, our most common make ready issue so far has been old poles that are 
relatively short and we can't stay the required distance from the power 
equipment and also be far enough above the existing phone line.  Sometimes we 
can use a standoff or other solutions to avoid the issue, but sometimes the 
pole needs to be replaced.  It's never less than $5,000, could be as much as 
$10,000.   

What I'm wondering is this:  We can get a new 35' pole for $800.  We can get a 
new 50' pole for $1500.  Is there any reason I couldn't just avoid make ready 
expense by setting our own pole instead of using theirs?  Even with guy wires, 
permit, and easements it's almost guaranteed to be less expensive.  Maybe I 
would put a 35 footer on the opposite side of the road, for example.  Or maybe 
we set the new 50 footer right next to theirs and even let them move onto our 
pole if they want to.  It seems too easy and I'm wondering if there's a catch 
I'm not thinking of.

Re: [AFMUG] Avoid 'make ready' by using my own poles

[Colin Stanners]

At least in our area the highways department does not want new poles put
in, they much prefer underground utilities.
On Jun 23, 2017 12:09 PM, "Adam Moffett"  wrote:

> So, our most common make ready issue so far has been old poles that are
> relatively short and we can't stay the required distance from the power
> equipment and also be far enough above the existing phone line.  Sometimes
> we can use a standoff or other solutions to avoid the issue, but sometimes
> the pole needs to be replaced.  It's never less than $5,000, could be as
> much as $10,000.
>
> What I'm wondering is this:  We can get a new 35' pole for $800.  We can
> get a new 50' pole for $1500.  Is there any reason I couldn't just avoid
> make ready expense by setting our own pole instead of using theirs?  Even
> with guy wires, permit, and easements it's almost guaranteed to be less
> expensive.  Maybe I would put a 35 footer on the opposite side of the road,
> for example.  Or maybe we set the new 50 footer right next to theirs and
> even let them move onto our pole if they want to.  It seems too easy and
> I'm wondering if there's a catch I'm not thinking of.
>
>
>

Re: [AFMUG] Mistake: Crimping With PoE Connected?

[Adam Moffett]

The power supply could have short circuit protection of some type, or is 
just robust enough to survive a momentary short.  I'm betting size 
restrictions of a PoE port in a switch will limit how much ruggedness 
they can build into it.


I also wondered about non-conductive dies, but never looked hard.  I 
decided ceramic would be too brittle, polymers wouldn't be durable 
enough, and I couldn't imagine what else they would use.then I 
decided I'd already spent too much time thinking about it and shouldn't 
bother.



-- Original Message --
From: "Christopher Gray" 
To: af@afmug.com
Sent: 6/23/2017 1:07:53 PM
Subject: [AFMUG] Mistake: Crimping With PoE Connected?

So, I made a mistake and crimped a cable end while the PoE was still 
connected to the other end (Cambium ePMP gigabit PoE). I saw a small 
spark while the crimper hit the contacts.


I expected to have to re-do the end and possibly replace the PoE, but 
everything was fine.


Are some injectors just less sensitive than others? I hear a Netonix 
will lose a port if you do that. Are there any crimpers with 
non-conductive dies?


-Chris

[AFMUG] Avoid 'make ready' by using my own poles

[Adam Moffett]

So, our most common make ready issue so far has been old poles that are 
relatively short and we can't stay the required distance from the power 
equipment and also be far enough above the existing phone line.  
Sometimes we can use a standoff or other solutions to avoid the issue, 
but sometimes the pole needs to be replaced.  It's never less than 
$5,000, could be as much as $10,000.


What I'm wondering is this:  We can get a new 35' pole for $800.  We can 
get a new 50' pole for $1500.  Is there any reason I couldn't just avoid 
make ready expense by setting our own pole instead of using theirs?  
Even with guy wires, permit, and easements it's almost guaranteed to be 
less expensive.  Maybe I would put a 35 footer on the opposite side of 
the road, for example.  Or maybe we set the new 50 footer right next to 
theirs and even let them move onto our pole if they want to.  It seems 
too easy and I'm wondering if there's a catch I'm not thinking of.

[AFMUG] Mistake: Crimping With PoE Connected?

[Christopher Gray]

So, I made a mistake and crimped a cable end while the PoE was still
connected to the other end (Cambium ePMP gigabit PoE). I saw a small spark
while the crimper hit the contacts.

I expected to have to re-do the end and possibly replace the PoE, but
everything was fine.

Are some injectors just less sensitive than others? I hear a Netonix will
lose a port if you do that. Are there any crimpers with non-conductive dies?

-Chris

Re: [AFMUG] Calix 844GE

[chuck]

Each house has a drop that is spliced to the cross box in the area.  The 
GPON  or AE equipment is in a cabinet next to the cross box.  So everyone 
can get AE or GPON as needed.


-Original Message- 
From: Sorin Esanu

Sent: Friday, June 23, 2017 1:11 AM
To: af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Calix 844GE

Hi,

I am assuming below that you want to start with Active Ethernet, then 
migrate to GPON. If that is not your use case, ignore the rest of this 
reply.


844GE can do both Active Ethernet and GPON. The drawbacks are:
- you are not able to install more than 2x 844GE per AE CSFP, as AE is a 
point to point technology. So be aware when you do the planning, as you 
cannot really mix AE and GPON. And each 844GE in AE mode will use one fiber.
- AE and GPON use different SFPs and different ports on the card, so you 
will need different cards in your 2 scenarios, to achieve some density: AE - 
GE-24, GPON - GPON-8. Plus different optics (CSFP vs GPON).


You might end with a more expensive deployment doing AE then converting to 
GPON than just doing GPON from the start, if that’s where you want to get in 
the end.



On 23 Jun 2017, at 04:28, George Skorup  wrote:

Anybody deploying these? I finally got the folks writing the checks on the 
GPON bandwagon. Looks like they want to go all-out with a full Calix 
infrastructure. So we're going to install the 844GE's at the existing 
customers and temporarily convert to BiDi, then GPON later as it grows. So 
I need to get some BiDi SFPs. I want Tx 1490 / Rx 1310 at the head-end.. 
right? That's what it looks like to me, just want to make sure I'm not 
being stupid.

Re: [AFMUG] Calix 844GE

[chuck]

We do tons of these.  Customers love them.  Not sure about the wavelengths.

-Original Message- 
From: George Skorup

Sent: Thursday, June 22, 2017 7:28 PM
To: Animal Farm
Subject: [AFMUG] Calix 844GE

Anybody deploying these? I finally got the folks writing the checks on
the GPON bandwagon. Looks like they want to go all-out with a full Calix
infrastructure. So we're going to install the 844GE's at the existing
customers and temporarily convert to BiDi, then GPON later as it grows.
So I need to get some BiDi SFPs. I want Tx 1490 / Rx 1310 at the
head-end.. right? That's what it looks like to me, just want to make
sure I'm not being stupid. 

[AFMUG] OT. Street Fest weekend

[Jaime Solorza]

I am playing tonight at El Paso Street Festival and Alice Cooper is one of
the main acts.  A friend says he will be there tonight for interviews.
That is one cat I would like to have a conversation with.  If I do, will
share with you Kool Kat's. No I will not ask for autograph... pictures,
yes!

Jaime Solorza

[AFMUG] FS: 450SMs - 5 Ghz and 2.4 Ghz

[Paul McCall]

We have a few of the 2.4 Ghz 450 SMs 10Mbit NEW C024045C002A and the same of 5 
Ghz 450SM 20Mbit NEW C054045C003B that we are not going to use.  We ended up 
going with ePMP for almost everything.

I also have some of the connectorized 5 Ghz 450SM 10Mbit NEW

Please hit me OFFLIST if interested.

Paul McCall, President
PDMNet, Inc. / Florida Broadband, Inc.
658 Old Dixie Highway
Vero Beach, FL 32962
772-564-6800
pa...@pdmnet.net
www.pdmnet.com
www.floridabroadband.com

Re: [AFMUG] Trango Apex+

[Jeremy]

Nope, it is direct dc and fiber.  We never need to take it off, but if we
did it would just be as simple as unscrewing it counter-clockwise.

On Thu, Jun 22, 2017 at 2:53 PM, Adam Moffett  wrote:

> I like the looks of your flex conduit tied into the cap.  I'm wondering is
> it difficult to take that off though?
>
>
> -- Original Message --
> From: "Jeremy" 
> To: af@afmug.com
> Sent: 6/22/2017 10:26:50 AM
> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Trango Apex+
>
> Yes, they use a Remec style enclosure.
> [image: Inline image 1]
>
> On Thu, Jun 22, 2017 at 7:41 AM,  wrote:
>
>> Does anyone know if the Apex+ antenna will take a regular Remec radio?
>> Like the PTP800?
>>
>
>

Re: [AFMUG] Calix 844GE

[Joe Novak]

If your plan does not involve putting the router in the living area (or
central area of the house) I highly recommend doing so. We started with the
indoor ONTs with wireless, without the router being in the living area it
ends up not working well at all.

ONT on side of house, ethernet into router is a A+ combo, in my opinion.
Then your not snaking fiber through the customers house, prone to being
broken. You could even do a outdoor ONT in the basement if you feel like
it, that is fine as well. Ethernet to the router on the central level.

On Fri, Jun 23, 2017 at 2:11 AM, Sorin Esanu  wrote:

> Hi,
>
> I am assuming below that you want to start with Active Ethernet, then
> migrate to GPON. If that is not your use case, ignore the rest of this
> reply.
>
> 844GE can do both Active Ethernet and GPON. The drawbacks are:
> - you are not able to install more than 2x 844GE per AE CSFP, as AE is a
> point to point technology. So be aware when you do the planning, as you
> cannot really mix AE and GPON. And each 844GE in AE mode will use one fiber.
> - AE and GPON use different SFPs and different ports on the card, so you
> will need different cards in your 2 scenarios, to achieve some density: AE
> - GE-24, GPON - GPON-8. Plus different optics (CSFP vs GPON).
>
> You might end with a more expensive deployment doing AE then converting to
> GPON than just doing GPON from the start, if that’s where you want to get
> in the end.
>
> > On 23 Jun 2017, at 04:28, George Skorup 
> wrote:
> >
> > Anybody deploying these? I finally got the folks writing the checks on
> the GPON bandwagon. Looks like they want to go all-out with a full Calix
> infrastructure. So we're going to install the 844GE's at the existing
> customers and temporarily convert to BiDi, then GPON later as it grows. So
> I need to get some BiDi SFPs. I want Tx 1490 / Rx 1310 at the head-end..
> right? That's what it looks like to me, just want to make sure I'm not
> being stupid.
>
>

Re: [AFMUG] Calix 844GE

[Sorin Esanu]

Hi,

I am assuming below that you want to start with Active Ethernet, then migrate 
to GPON. If that is not your use case, ignore the rest of this reply.

844GE can do both Active Ethernet and GPON. The drawbacks are:
- you are not able to install more than 2x 844GE per AE CSFP, as AE is a point 
to point technology. So be aware when you do the planning, as you cannot really 
mix AE and GPON. And each 844GE in AE mode will use one fiber.
- AE and GPON use different SFPs and different ports on the card, so you will 
need different cards in your 2 scenarios, to achieve some density: AE - GE-24, 
GPON - GPON-8. Plus different optics (CSFP vs GPON).

You might end with a more expensive deployment doing AE then converting to GPON 
than just doing GPON from the start, if that’s where you want to get in the end.

> On 23 Jun 2017, at 04:28, George Skorup  wrote:
> 
> Anybody deploying these? I finally got the folks writing the checks on the 
> GPON bandwagon. Looks like they want to go all-out with a full Calix 
> infrastructure. So we're going to install the 844GE's at the existing 
> customers and temporarily convert to BiDi, then GPON later as it grows. So I 
> need to get some BiDi SFPs. I want Tx 1490 / Rx 1310 at the head-end.. right? 
> That's what it looks like to me, just want to make sure I'm not being stupid.

Re: [AFMUG] Ready for the Xbox one X and 100GB games?

[Josh Reynolds]

And illegal.

- Josh

On Jun 22, 2017 11:22 AM, "Mike Hammett"  wrote:

> We go from bad idea to worse?
>
>
>
> -
> Mike Hammett
> Intelligent Computing Solutions 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Midwest Internet Exchange 
> 
> 
> 
> The Brothers WISP 
> 
>
>
> 
> --
> *From: *"Kurt Fankhauser" 
> *To: *af@afmug.com
> *Sent: *Thursday, June 22, 2017 10:15:11 AM
> *Subject: *Re: [AFMUG] Ready for the Xbox one X and 100GB games?
>
> Can you block/throttle a VPN connection with DPI? Make it so that if the
> customer turns it on the VPN their connection gets worse than with it off?
>
> On Wed, Jun 21, 2017 at 11:43 PM, Jeremy  wrote:
>
>> On that point, we tell them that it is not our responsibility to track
>> their specific usage.  We tell them that their are routers like the
>> Fortigate which can track usage, but that we do not support those devices.
>> I tell them that I think the new Torch router does it too, but that we have
>> no experience with these devices.  "The only way that we track which
>> websites are visited and what you are doing on the Internet is with a
>> warrant or an order from the Department of Justice".  We stand behind our
>> usage tracking, and if they do not want to pay the bill then they can find
>> another provider.  We have lost two or three customers over four years who
>> refuse to pay, and it usually isn't worth sending those ones to
>> collections.  We just go and collect our equipment and write it off as bad
>> debt.
>>
>> On Wed, Jun 21, 2017 at 7:52 PM, Adam Moffett 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> That's an interesting point.
>>>
>>>
>>> -- Original Message --
>>> From: "Stefan Englhardt" 
>>> To: af@afmug.com; "Wireless Administrator" 
>>> Sent: 6/21/2017 3:18:07 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Ready for the Xbox one X and 100GB games?
>>>
>>> We fade out our usage based plans. *Every* single customer who had to
 pay surplus makes us a lot of work. Calls from each single family member,
 what IP is this. Why cant you tell me what x.y.z.w is. I dont use Akamai 
 ...
 You have to take care there is no angry escalating dispute for a view
 Euros. I am sure this service times cost us more money than the customers
 had to pay surplus. We have to do flat pricing.

 On Wed, 21 Jun 2017 18:59:41 +
  "Wireless Administrator"  wrote:

> This industry is in trouble.  Nobody wants usage based billing.
> Customers don’t want it for obvious reasons. ISP’s are afraid to implement
> it for fear of losing customers.  If you lose money on an account is it
> really an asset to your business? I feel that the Large ISP’s have already
> implemented Usage Based Rate Adjustment. They seem to have an automated
> process to adjust rates that will force off the heavy users.  Our industry
> will not get respect until it asks for it.  UBB or UBRA (New term I 
> coined)
> is the way ….
>
>
>
> Steve
>
>
>
> From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Mark - Myakka
> Technologies
> Sent: Wednesday, June 21, 2017 2:07 PM
> To: Simon Westlake
> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Ready for the Xbox one X and 100GB games?
>
>
>
> Simon,
>
> But metered billing makes them think about what they are doing.  Does
> the baby need to be falling asleep watching a 4K movie?  The best way I 
> can
> put it is renting an apartment with utilities included.  If I'm renting an
> apartment in FL with electric included, my AC is going to be set at 68
> 24/7.  The cat will be very comfortable all day, why should I care.
> However, if I'm paying for electric, the cat will have to deal with 78
> during the day and I may have to deal with 72 when I get home.
>
> Bandwidth prices are dropping for some, but for others it is still
> expensive.  Not to mention the HW costs to upgrade your network to handle
> the higher bandwidth internally.
> 4K tvs cost more to buy than 1080  or 720 TV's.  Why should someone
> who is willing to stream at 720 or pay for satellite TV, be forced to pay
> the same as that guy that wants to watch in 4K.  Why should a single 
> person
> who just needs dependable fast internet occasionally be force to pay the
> same amount as the family with 6 kids and 30