from:"PE R"

A little coffee, not too much because it raises cortisol, unsweetened iced tea 
and water.
  From: "ch...@wbmfg.com" 
 To: af@afmug.com 
 Sent: Friday, April 21, 2017 4:51 PM
 Subject: [AFMUG] OT Mad cow

So if my diet coke zero is going to give me strokes and dementia now what 
the heck am I going to drink all day long?Don’t like sugared soda but like 
sweet drinks.  Sugar is not a friend of my A1C either.  I want the caffeine in 
the morning.   Sweet, caffeinated, carbonated, but no artificial sweetener, and 
no sugar, and no sucralose beverage.   Please bring back saccharine.

Re: [AFMUG] OT Mad cow

Insulin resistance is caused by fat preventing the cells from functioning 
properly which forces the pancreas to excrete more insulin.   Fat is from 
either ingested sources or generated as a result of too many calories and/or 
too many processed foods like sugars, booze, fried foods, etc.  Remember belly 
fat, intra-muscular fat, etc., are all triglycerides.  Change your diet, lower 
your triglycerides.  A good thing.  
How Fat Affects Insulin Resistance, Blood Sugar, Diabetes

  
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How Fat Affects Insulin Resistance, Blood Sugar, Diabetes
 Insulin resistance is a predictor of disease and obesity. In this video, Dr. 
Michael Greger explains how fat aff...  |   |

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Fat in the omentum --- that "belly" -- is extremely deadly as the hormones 
excreted by this organ are toxic.
  From: Bill Prince 
 To: af@afmug.com 
 Sent: Saturday, April 22, 2017 12:39 PM
 Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT Mad cow
   
  But does it have calories or not? The issue I see is things that provide 
"sweetness" but have no calories. They can (and do) trigger an insulin 
response, but nothing for the insulin to act on. Hence, they tilt toward 
increasing insulin resistance (the main problem in type 2 diabetes). Type 2 
diabetes was practically non-existent prior to the last few decades, which 
coincides with the proliferation of artificial sweeteners in all things "food". 
  bp


 On 4/22/2017 10:13 AM, Jason McKemie wrote:
  
In all fairness, stevia isn't artificial at all, it's made from a plant's root.
 
 On Saturday, April 22, 2017, Bill Prince  wrote:
 
  Don't know if this will come through, but it's worth a shot. A summary of a 
report on artificial sweeteners & their interaction with metabolism/immune 
system. 
  bp


 On 4/22/2017 9:44 AM, Jason McKemie wrote:
  
Stevia still has the weird fake sugar taste for me, although I have had it on 
some sodas and it wasn't terrible. I just drink the flavored soda water and 
iced tea - I don't have much of a sweet tooth though. Oh, and tequila, I drink 
plenty of that.
 
 On Saturday, April 22, 2017, Josh Reynolds  wrote:
 
 I don't care so much about sucralose it was just part of the paragraph. Stevia 
OTOH is showing a lot of positive effects for health in those with a sweet 
tooth.
 
 - Josh  
 On Apr 22, 2017 11:06 AM, "Chuck McCown"  wrote:
 
Sucralose gives me crazy heartburn.     Not sure if I am more worried about 
A1C or getting mad cow from it.  Not sure how life with dementia affects the 
person having it, I know full well what it does to the rest of the family and I 
really don’t want to inflict that upon my children.    From: Josh Reynolds  
Sent: Saturday, April 22, 2017 10:00 AM To: af@afmug.com  Subject: Re: [AFMUG] 
OT Mad cow       Stevia actually doesn't. What you're talking is about an 
artificial sweetener spiking an insulin response due to it containing 
carbohydrates.   " study performed in human volunteers demonstrated that 
infusions of sucralose in to the stomach had no effect on insulin levels or 
glucose. In another study, drinking a diet soda sweetened with sucralose had no 
significant effect on insulin levels a (a minor non-significant increase was 
noted). A study also demonstrated that the use of stevia did not increase 
insulin levels in healthy or obese participants"
   
 
 - Josh   On Apr 21, 2017 7:41 PM, "Bill Prince"  
wrote:
 
  All those artificial sweeteners will kill you and/or give you type 2 
diabetes. Besides; they all taste metallic or something. I can't stand them. 
Just give me plain coffee with a dab of cream, or plain spiced tea.   bp


 On 4/21/2017 2:51 PM, ch...@wbmfg.com wrote:
  
   So if my diet coke zero is going to give me strokes and dementia now 
what the heck am I going to drink all day long? Don’t like sugared soda but 
like sweet drinks.  Sugar is not a friend of my A1C either.  I want the 
caffeine in the morning.     Sweet, caffeinated, carbonated, but no artificial 
sweetener, and no sugar, and no sucralose beverage.     Please bring back 
saccharine.

Re: [AFMUG] OT Mad cow

Stevia is artificial as it is a processed food and not found naturally in such 
a concentrated form.

  From: Jason McKemie 
 To: "af@afmug.com"  
 Sent: Saturday, April 22, 2017 12:13 PM
 Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT Mad cow

In all fairness, stevia isn't artificial at all, it's made from a plant's root.

On Saturday, April 22, 2017, Bill Prince  wrote:

  Don't know if this will come through, but it's worth a shot. A summary of a 
report on artificial sweeteners & their interaction with metabolism/immune 
system. 
  bp

 On 4/22/2017 9:44 AM, Jason McKemie wrote:

Stevia still has the weird fake sugar taste for me, although I have had it on 
some sodas and it wasn't terrible. I just drink the flavored soda water and 
iced tea - I don't have much of a sweet tooth though. Oh, and tequila, I drink 
plenty of that.

 On Saturday, April 22, 2017, Josh Reynolds  wrote:

 I don't care so much about sucralose it was just part of the paragraph. Stevia 
OTOH is showing a lot of positive effects for health in those with a sweet 
tooth.

 - Josh  
 On Apr 22, 2017 11:06 AM, "Chuck McCown"  wrote:

Sucralose gives me crazy heartburn.     Not sure if I am more worried about 
A1C or getting mad cow from it.  Not sure how life with dementia affects the 
person having it, I know full well what it does to the rest of the family and I 
 really don’t want to inflict that upon my children.    From: Josh Reynolds 
 Sent: Saturday, April 22, 2017 10:00 AM To: af@afmug.com  Subject: Re: [AFMUG] 
OT Mad cow       Stevia actually doesn't. What you're talking is about an 
artificial sweetener spiking an insulin response due to it containing  
carbohydrates.   " study performed in human volunteers demonstrated that 
infusions of sucralose in to the stomach had no effect on insulin levels or 
glucose. In another study, drinking a diet soda sweetened with sucralose had no 
significant effect on insulin levels a (a minor non-significant increase was 
noted). A study also demonstrated that the use of stevia did not increase 
insulin levels in healthy or obese participants"

 - Josh   On Apr 21, 2017 7:41 PM, "Bill Prince"  
wrote:

  All those artificial sweeteners will kill you and/or give you type 2 
diabetes. Besides; they all taste metallic or something. I can't stand them. 
Just give me plain coffee with a dab of cream, or plain spiced tea.   bp

 On 4/21/2017 2:51 PM, ch...@wbmfg.com wrote:

   So if my diet coke zero is going to give me strokes and dementia now 
what the heck am I going to drink all day long? Don’t like sugared soda but 
like sweet drinks.  Sugar is not a friend of my A1C either.  I want the 
caffeine in the morning.     Sweet, caffeinated, carbonated, but no artificial 
sweetener, and no sugar, and no sucralose beverage.     Please bring back 
saccharine.

The problem with ketogenic diet is the emphasis on protein, so, you're
substituting one macronutrient which raises insulin for another.
Dr. Ron Rosedale, MD, is an endocrinologist who -- like Dr. Gerald Reaven --
has concerns about too much protein in the diets consumed by diabetics and
recommends 50% of your lean body mass should be the max amount of protein to
reduce the impact on insulin. eg If your LBM is 140lbs, then, 70g of protein
per day. He also has concerns about the affects of protein on IGF-1.
"Anti-aging expert Ron Rosedale, M.D., was among the first to warn people about
the dangers of eating too much protein — a stance that has received a fair
share of criticism over the years, although mounting research now offers strong
support for this notion."
http://drrosedale.com/blog/2011/11/21/ron-rosedale-protein-the-good-the-bad-and-the-ugly/#axzz4f1A9zTeV
A ketogenic diet higher in fat, lower in protein and lots of vegetables, should
also be more focused on healthier fats...primarily from plants as:
- Saturated fats are highly inflammatory, which is a big issue if you have
insulin resistance/you are Type 2. These also damage the endothelial lining of
the arteries.- SFAs contain concentrated amounts of Arachidonic Acid...the body
does need these, but, in minute amounts.- Saturated fats are also a storehouse
of things like pesticides, hormones (that the animals are given), etc.
So, nuts, avocados, etc., would be a much better choice if doing a keto plan.

From: Josh Reynolds
To: af@afmug.com
Sent: Saturday, April 22, 2017 1:53 PM
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT Mad cow

Look into keto. Trigger ketosis over several months had anecdotal evidence to
reduce or eliminate type 2 diabetes. Until more long term studies are done, it
will stay "anecdotal". I've seen way, way too many success stories tied to this
that aren't related to a company's product, sales pitch, etc.

- Josh
On Apr 22, 2017 1:14 PM, wrote:

Well that would be a bonus but I am looking to prevent the extra risk of stroke
and mad cow primarily. My type 2 is not out of control but needs all the help
it can get. From: Jason McKemie Sent: Saturday, April 22, 2017 12:06 PMTo:
af@afmug.com Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT Mad cow From what I've read it doesn't
sound like stevia triggers the same insulin response as artificial sweeteners
and may actually decrease insulin resistance, although it also sounds like all
the information is not in on what it does do.

On Saturday, April 22, 2017, Bill Prince wrote:

But does it have calories or not? The issue I see is things that provide
"sweetness" but have no calories. They can (and do) trigger an insulin
response, but nothing for the insulin to act on. Hence, they tilt toward
increasing insulin resistance (the main problem in type 2 diabetes). Type 2
diabetes was practically non-existent prior to the last few decades, which
coincides with the proliferation of artificial sweeteners in all things "food".
bp

On 4/22/2017 10:13 AM, Jason McKemie wrote:

In all fairness, stevia isn't artificial at all, it's made from a plant's root.

On Saturday, April 22, 2017, Bill Prince wrote:

Don't know if this will come through, but it's worth a shot. A summary of a
report on artificial sweeteners & their interaction with metabolism/immune
system. bp

On 4/22/2017 9:44 AM, Jason McKemie wrote:

Stevia still has the weird fake sugar taste for me, although I have had it on
some sodas and it wasn't terrible. I just drink the flavored soda water and
iced tea - I don't have much of a sweet tooth though. Oh, and tequila, I drink
plenty of that.

On Saturday, April 22, 2017, Josh Reynolds wrote:

I don't care so much about sucralose it was just part of the paragraph. Stevia
OTOH is showing a lot of positive effects for health in those with a sweet
tooth.

- Josh On Apr 22, 2017 11:06 AM, "Chuck McCown" wrote:

Sucralose gives me crazy heartburn. Not sure if I am more worried about
A1C or getting mad cow from it. Not sure how life with dementia affects the
person having it, I know full well what it does to the rest of the family and I
really don’t want to inflict that upon my children. From: Josh Reynolds
Sent: Saturday, April 22, 2017 10:00 AM To: af@afmug.com Subject: Re: [AFMUG]
OT Mad cow Stevia actually doesn't. What you're talking is about an
artificial sweetener spiking an insulin response due to it containing
carbohydrates. " study performed in human volunteers demonstrated that
infusions of sucralose in to the stomach had no effect on insulin levels or
glucose. In another study, drinking a diet soda sweetened with sucralose had no
significant effect on insulin levels a (a minor non-significant increase was

Re: [AFMUG] OT Mad cow

Chuck - MDs like Joel Fuhrman, John McDougall, etc., have their patients off of 
Type 2 meds in days and Type 2 reversed in months.   eg:
https://www.amazon.com/End-Diabetes-Live-Prevent-Reverse-ebook/dp/B0089LOG7U

Type 2 = insulin resistance and eliminating that should be your #1 goal.  And 
as you probably know, Type 2 increases the risk of other issues.  
eg:  DrFuhrman.com
  
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DrFuhrman.com
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  From: "ch...@wbmfg.com" 
 To: af@afmug.com 
 Sent: Saturday, April 22, 2017 1:14 PM
 Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT Mad cow
   
Well that would be a bonus but I am looking to prevent the extra risk of stroke 
and mad cow primarily.  My type 2 is not out of control but needs all the help 
it can get.   From: Jason McKemie Sent: Saturday, April 22, 2017 12:06 PMTo: 
af@afmug.com Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT Mad cow From what I've read it doesn't 
sound like stevia triggers the same insulin response as artificial sweeteners 
and may actually decrease insulin resistance, although it also sounds like all 
the information is not in on what it does do.

On Saturday, April 22, 2017, Bill Prince  wrote:

  But does it have calories or not? The issue I see is things that provide 
"sweetness" but have no calories. They can (and do) trigger an insulin 
response, but nothing for the insulin to act on. Hence, they tilt toward 
increasing insulin resistance (the main problem in type 2 diabetes). Type 2 
diabetes was practically non-existent prior to the last few decades, which 
coincides with the proliferation of artificial sweeteners in all things "food". 
 bp


 On 4/22/2017 10:13 AM, Jason McKemie wrote:
 
In all fairness, stevia isn't artificial at all, it's made from a plant's root.

On Saturday, April 22, 2017, Bill Prince 
 wrote:
 
  Don't know if this will come through, but it's worth a shot. A summary of a 
report on artificial sweeteners & their interaction with metabolism/immune 
system.  bp


 On 4/22/2017 9:44 AM, Jason McKemie wrote:
 
Stevia still has the weird fake sugar taste for me, although I have had it on 
some sodas and it wasn't terrible. I just drink the flavored soda water and 
iced tea - I don't have much of a sweet tooth though. Oh, and tequila, I drink 
plenty of that.

On Saturday, April 22, 2017, Josh Reynolds  wrote:
 
 I don't care so much about sucralose it was just part of the paragraph. Stevia 
OTOH is showing a lot of positive effects for health in those with a sweet 
tooth.

 - Josh    On Apr 22, 2017 11:06 AM, "Chuck McCown"  wrote:
 
Sucralose gives me crazy heartburn.     Not sure if I am more worried about 
A1C or getting mad cow from it.  Not sure how life with dementia affects the 
person having it, I know full well what it does to the rest of the family and I 
really don’t want to inflict that upon my children.    From: Josh Reynolds  
Sent: Saturday, April 22, 2017 10:00 AM To: af@afmug.com  Subject: Re: [AFMUG] 
OT Mad cow    Stevia actually doesn't. What you're talking is about an 
artificial sweetener spiking an insulin response due to it containing 
carbohydrates.   " study performed in human volunteers demonstrated that 
infusions of sucralose in to the stomach had no effect on insulin levels or 
glucose. In another study, drinking a diet soda sweetened with sucralose had no 
significant effect on insulin levels a (a minor non-significant increase was 
noted). A study also demonstrated that the use of stevia did not increase 
insulin levels in healthy or obese participants"
   

 - Josh    On Apr 21, 2017 7:41 PM, "Bill Prince"  wrote:
 
  All those artificial sweeteners will kill you and/or give you type 2 
diabetes. Besides; they all taste metallic or something. I can't stand them. 
Just give me plain coffee with a dab of cream, or plain spiced tea.  bp


 On 4/21/2017 2:51 PM, ch...@wbmfg.com wrote:
 
   So if my diet coke zero is going to give me strokes and dementia now 
what the heck am I going to drink all day long? Don’t like sugared soda but 
like sweet drinks.  Sugar is not a friend of my A1C either.  I want the 
caffeine in the morning.     Sweet, caffeinated, carbonated, but no artificial 
sweetener, and no sugar, and no sucralose beverage.     Please bring back 
saccharine.

Re: [AFMUG] OT Mad cow

There are different kinds of carbohydrates and they all have different Glycemic 
Loads and GI rankings.  You can take an apple, apple sauce or apple juice.  An 
apple's macronutrients -- carbs/protein/fat -- will slowly enter the 
bloodstream because of the natural fiber.  Apple sauce, much more quickly since 
it is a processed food and apple juice?  About the same as drinking a can of 
Coke.
But, some carbohydrates actually generate a lower insulin response than some 
proteins, and, with natural carbs (legumes, whole grains, fruit, vegetables) 
you don't have the issue with IGF-1.

  From: Bill Prince 
 To: af@afmug.com 
 Sent: Saturday, April 22, 2017 2:10 PM
 Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT Mad cow
   
  You're missing the point about carbohydrates. If it has carbohydrates, it 
will convert to sugar, which will trigger an insulin response. 
  
 https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/08/070820175426.htm
  
 bp


 On 4/22/2017 11:52 AM, Josh Reynolds wrote:
  
 You're missing the point. Stevia doesn't trigger an insulin response.
 
 - Josh  
 On Apr 22, 2017 12:44 PM, "Bill Prince"  wrote:
 
  and because they break down into sugars, they have calories, and they trigger 
an insulin response on which the insulin can act.
  bp


 On 4/22/2017 10:42 AM, Josh Reynolds wrote:
  
 This is incorrect. Carbohydrates by definition break down into sugars. There 
are numerous studies on this.
 
 - Josh  
 On Apr 22, 2017 12:39 PM, "Bill Prince"  wrote:
 
  But does it have calories or not? The issue I see is things that provide 
"sweetness" but have no calories. They can (and do) trigger an insulin 
response, but  nothing for the insulin to act on. Hence, they tilt toward 
increasing insulin resistance (the main problem in type 2 diabetes). Type 2 
diabetes was practically non-existent prior to the last few decades, which 
coincides with the proliferation of artificial sweeteners in all things "food". 
  bp


 On 4/22/2017 10:13 AM, Jason McKemie wrote:
  
In all fairness, stevia isn't artificial at all, it's made from a plant's root.
 
 On Saturday, April 22, 2017, Bill Prince  wrote:
 
  Don't know if this will come through, but it's worth a shot. A summary of a 
report on artificial sweeteners & their interaction with metabolism/immune 
system. 
  bp


 On 4/22/2017 9:44 AM, Jason McKemie wrote:
  
Stevia still has the weird fake sugar taste for me, although I have had it on 
some sodas and  it wasn't terrible. I just drink the flavored soda water and 
iced tea - I don't have much of a sweet tooth though. Oh, and tequila, I drink 
plenty of that.
 
 On Saturday, April 22, 2017, Josh Reynolds  wrote:
 
 I don't care so much about sucralose it was just part of the paragraph. Stevia 
OTOH is  showing a lot of positive effects for health in those with a sweet 
tooth.
 
 - Josh  
 On Apr 22, 2017 11:06 AM, "Chuck McCown"  wrote:
 
Sucralose gives me crazy heartburn.     Not sure if I am more worried about 
A1C or getting mad cow from  it.  Not sure how life with dementia affects the 
person having it, I  know full well what it does to the rest of the family and 
I really don’t want to inflict that upon my children.    From: Josh 
Reynolds  Sent: Saturday, April 22, 2017 10:00 AM To: af@afmug.com  Subject: 
Re: [AFMUG] OT Mad cow       Stevia actually doesn't. What you're talking is 
about an  artificial sweetener spiking an insulin response due to it containing 
carbohydrates.    " study performed in human volunteers  demonstrated that 
infusions of sucralose in to  the stomach had no effect on insulin levels or 
glucose. In another study, drinking a diet soda sweetened with sucralose had no 
significant effect on insulin  levels a (a minor non-significant increase was 
noted). A study also demonstrated that the use of stevia did not increase 
insulin levels in healthy or obese  participants"
   
 
 - Josh   On Apr 21, 2017 7:41 PM, "Bill Prince"  
wrote:
 
  All those artificial sweeteners will kill you and/or give you type 2  
diabetes. Besides; they all taste metallic or something. I  can't stand them. 
Just give me plain coffee with a dab of cream, or plain  spiced tea.   bp


 On 4/21/2017 2:51 PM, ch...@wbmfg.com wrote:
  
   So if my diet coke zero is going to give me strokes and dementia  now 
what the heck am I going to drink all day long? Don’t like sugared soda but 
like sweet drinks.  Sugar is not a friend of my A1C either.  I want the 
caffeine in the morning.     Sweet, caffeinated, carbonated, but no artificial 
sweetener, and  no sugar, and no sucralose beverage.     Please bring back 
saccharine.

Re: [AFMUG] OT Mad cow

The only macronutrient that doesn't affect insulin is fat. 
Protein is the other macronutrient that will cause insulin surges.  This was 
confirmed by Dr. Gerald Reaven, MD/PhD, of Stanford University as having nearly 
the same impact on insulin levels as high GI carbs.  (Remember it is the *type* 
of carb that determines the Glycemic Load/Glycemic Index.)   Reaven is credited 
as discovering the relationship between metabolic syndrome or syndrome X and 
cardiovascular disease and cancer. 
Protein also causes IGF-1 (insulin growth factor-1) to rise.  The body produces 
this naturally...for example, when you lift weights that are heavy enough the 
muscle cells will produce IGF-1.  However, diets high in protein will cause the 
body to produce more IGF-1 than is needed and that is when the trouble begins 
since insulin and especially IGF-1 are anabolic.  
IGF-1 helps drive growth with healthy tissue, but, it also causes cancer cells 
to grow.
Either way, you can easily have an insulin spike on a 'ketogenic' diet.

  From: Josh Reynolds 
 To: af@afmug.com 
 Sent: Saturday, April 22, 2017 3:55 PM
 Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT Mad cow
   
Insulin response is tied to carbohydrates, sure, but insulin can also spike via 
foods that have no carbohydrates. You can have an insulin spike via high 
cortisol levels converting proteins to glucose if your body has not had a few 
weeks to adapt to a state of ketosis.
Stevia does not cause either insulin spike.


- Josh
On Apr 22, 2017 2:10 PM, "Bill Prince"  wrote:

  You're missing the point about carbohydrates. If it has carbohydrates, it 
will convert to sugar, which will trigger an insulin response. 
  
 https://www.sciencedaily.com/ releases/2007/08/070820175426. htm
  
 bp


 On 4/22/2017 11:52 AM, Josh Reynolds wrote:
  
 You're missing the point. Stevia doesn't trigger an insulin response.
 
 - Josh  
 On Apr 22, 2017 12:44 PM, "Bill Prince"  wrote:
 
  and because they break down into sugars, they have calories, and they trigger 
an insulin response on which the insulin can act.
  bp


 On 4/22/2017 10:42 AM, Josh Reynolds wrote:
  
 This is incorrect. Carbohydrates by definition break down into sugars. There 
are numerous studies on this.
 
 - Josh  
 On Apr 22, 2017 12:39 PM, "Bill Prince"  wrote:
 
  But does it have calories or not? The issue I see is things that provide 
"sweetness" but have no calories. They can (and do) trigger an insulin 
response, but  nothing for the insulin to act on. Hence, they tilt toward 
increasing insulin resistance (the main problem in type 2 diabetes). Type 2 
diabetes was practically non-existent prior to the last few decades, which 
coincides with the proliferation of artificial sweeteners in all things "food". 
  bp


 On 4/22/2017 10:13 AM, Jason McKemie wrote:
  
In all fairness, stevia isn't artificial at all, it's made from a plant's root.
 
 On Saturday, April 22, 2017, Bill Prince  wrote:
 
  Don't know if this will come through, but it's worth a shot. A summary of a 
report on artificial sweeteners & their interaction with metabolism/immune 
system. 
  bp


 On 4/22/2017 9:44 AM, Jason McKemie wrote:
  
Stevia still has the weird fake sugar taste for me, although I have had it on 
some sodas and  it wasn't terrible. I just drink the flavored soda water and 
iced tea - I don't have much of a sweet tooth though. Oh, and tequila, I drink 
plenty of that.
 
 On Saturday, April 22, 2017, Josh Reynolds  wrote:
 
 I don't care so much about sucralose it was just part of the paragraph. Stevia 
OTOH is  showing a lot of positive effects for health in those with a sweet 
tooth.
 
 - Josh  
 On Apr 22, 2017 11:06 AM, "Chuck McCown"  wrote:
 
Sucralose gives me crazy heartburn.     Not sure if I am more worried about 
A1C or getting mad cow from  it.  Not sure how life with dementia affects the 
person having it, I  know full well what it does to the rest of the family and 
I really don’t want to inflict that upon my children.    From: Josh 
Reynolds  Sent: Saturday, April 22, 2017 10:00 AM To: af@afmug.com  Subject: 
Re: [AFMUG] OT Mad cow       Stevia actually doesn't. What you're talking is 
about an  artificial sweetener spiking an insulin response due to it containing 
carbohydrates.    " study performed in human volunteers  demonstrated that 
infusions of sucralose in to  the stomach had no effect on insulin levels or 
glucose. In another study, drinking a diet soda sweetened with sucralose had no 
significant effect on insulin  levels a (a minor non-significant increase was 
noted). A study also demonstrated that the use of stevia did not increase 
insulin levels in healthy or obese  participants"
   
 
 - Josh   On Apr 21, 2017 7:41 PM, "Bill Prince"

Re: [AFMUG] OT Mad cow

Aspartame was declared toxic by the US FDA decades ago and even MIT PhDs like 
Dr. Barry Sears warned against aspartame as a danger:
Donald Rumsfeld and the Strange History of Aspartame

  
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Donald Rumsfeld and the Strange History of Aspartame
 Yes, that Donald Rumsfeld, the "knowns and unknowns" guy who remarkably 
executed some of the worst dec...  |   |

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New Diet Sodas Can Cause Strokes

  
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New Diet Sodas Can Cause Strokes
 Diet soda, which contains the artificial sweetener aspartame, has been linked 
to a higher risk of stroke.  |   |

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  From: Lewis Bergman 
 To: af@afmug.com 
 Sent: Saturday, April 22, 2017 10:41 AM
 Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT Mad cow
   
 My doc says artificial sweeteners have proven to change the way cells function 
and specifically for diabetics can inhibit their  ability to process sugars. 
Now hiking in Big Bend this weekend. 
On Fri, Apr 21, 2017, 7:45 PM Jaime Solorza  wrote:

Tecate cures all Actually I have been pretty healthy for a 61 year old 
fartAnd of course  Hiking
On Apr 21, 2017 6:41 PM, "Bill Prince"  wrote:

  All those artificial sweeteners will kill you and/or give you type 2 
diabetes. Besides; they all taste metallic or something. I can't stand them. 
Just give me plain coffee with a dab of cream, or plain spiced tea. 
  bp


 On 4/21/2017 2:51 PM, ch...@wbmfg.com wrote:
  
   So if my diet coke zero is going to give me strokes and dementia now 
what the heck am I going to drink all day long? Don’t like sugared soda but 
like sweet drinks.  Sugar is not a friend of my A1C either.  I want the 
caffeine in the morning.     Sweet, caffeinated, carbonated, but no artificial 
sweetener, and no sugar, and no sucralose beverage.     Please bring back 
saccharine.

Re: [AFMUG] Calix E7-2 vs AdTran, Zhone, or?

2017-04-17 Thread PE R

ONT only, I believe.

  From: Daniel Gerlach 
 To: "af@afmug.com"  
 Sent: Thursday, April 13, 2017 11:43 PM
 Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Calix E7-2 vs AdTran, Zhone, or?

zyxel

2017-04-14 4:37 GMT+02:00 Dev :
> We are looking at the Calix E7-2 for GPON, and wondering what others are 
> running? Are you happy with  and why/why not?

Re: [AFMUG] Calix E7-2 vs AdTran, Zhone, or?

2017-04-17 Thread PE R

We met with operators at NTCA last week and discussed ZTE vs. other 
options...very, very postive feedback.  Would welcome the chance to follow up 
and discuss the CAPEX benefits we can offer as well.

  From: Dev 
 To: af@afmug.com 
 Sent: Thursday, April 13, 2017 9:37 PM
 Subject: [AFMUG] Calix E7-2 vs AdTran, Zhone, or?

We are looking at the Calix E7-2 for GPON, and wondering what others are 
running? Are you happy with  and why/why not?

Re: [AFMUG] Calix E7-2 vs AdTran, Zhone, or?

2017-04-15 Thread PE R

Doesn't hurt to give the newer stuff a shot and possibly save some CAPEX.  :)   
(And the newer ZTE VDSL2 products are deployed and/or in trials along with the 
G.fast products with operators throughout the US.)  
The DTMF tones are simply a matter of getting the software updated if the 
product's going to be sold in the US.  ZTE's deployed by Tier 1s in EU along 
APAC, etc. -- a couple of the analyst groups rank them as the #1 HGW vendor 
worldwide.
Do you remember what RG you were using?  An ADSL RG?  Only a handful of vendors 
did triple play on those products and they all had issues for the first few 
years of the technology without naming names.
An ATA was typically -- for most ADSL RGs -- a separate device where the triple 
play boxes had the FXS (analog) chip integrated into the system.  
Since everything on a PON system, outside of the customer LAN (Wifi/POTS/GigE), 
is EMS based, the EMS is pretty much 1:1 with other systems based on feedback 
since you're managing the L2/L3 network WAN traffic, the PON and the PON & 
Layer 2 portion of the ONT.





  From: Paul Stewart <p...@paulstewart.org>
 To: af@afmug.com 
 Sent: Saturday, April 15, 2017 3:39 PM
 Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Calix E7-2 vs AdTran, Zhone, or?
   
Much prefer Adtran TA5000 stuff personally …. haven’t used ZTE for FTTH but 
tested some of their other gear such as ATA combo modem (dsl) and ran into a 
lot of grief with it.  It “feels” super cheap and the UI had a lot to be 
desired (and simply lacked needed features like North American DTMF tones etc)
Calix I liked better when it was Occam …. newer stuff though (E7) I have talked 
to several folks and they like it …

On Apr 14, 2017, at 7:48 PM, PE R <hillrunner...@yahoo.com> wrote:
Or ZTE.  Just came away from the NTCA show and our products compete 
exceptionally well.  
Options include indoor ONT w/ BBU or outdoor.

  From: Chuck McCown <ch...@wbmfg.com>
 To: af@afmug.com 
 Sent: Friday, April 14, 2017 6:02 PM
 Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Calix E7-2 vs AdTran, Zhone, or?
   
Like to compare with outdoor ONT with a battery backed power supply at the 
home with 1 POTS line.

-Original Message- 
From: Mark - Myakka Technologies
Sent: Friday, April 14, 2017 2:07 PM
To: af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Calix E7-2 vs AdTran, Zhone, or?

Chuck,

On the OLT side it will vary depending on how many cards we put in the
cage and how many people we actually put on a port.

Best case fully populate cage with 32 users per port that will handle
1792 customers about $34 per user.

In reality, a cage with 3 slots and an average of 25 users per port for
a total of about 600 users would be about $29 per user.

This does not include a 48v power plant to run the cage.  But as you
know the price per user on a port is not very much at all and slightly
varis based on density.

Hardware on the customer side for an ONT, BBU, splice case, etc.  Not
including labor or drop will range from a low of about $250 to about
$450 depending on if we use an indoor verses outdoor ONT, 2 vs 4 pots,
etc.

-- 
Best regards,
Mark                            mailto:m...@mailmt.com

Myakka Technologies, Inc.
www.MyakkaTech.com

Proud Sponsor of the Myakka City Relay For Life
http://www.RelayForLife.org/MyakkaCityFL

Please Donate at Please Donate at http://www.myakkatech.com/RFL.html
--

Friday, April 14, 2017, 3:38:54 PM, you wrote:

cwc> Just like to compare apples to apples with Calix.

cwc> -Original Message- 
cwc> From: Mark - Myakka Technologies
cwc> Sent: Friday, April 14, 2017 1:19 PM
cwc> To: af@afmug.com
cwc> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Calix E7-2 vs AdTran, Zhone, or?

cwc> Chuck,

cwc> not personally.  Those numbers are available to me.  I've been so
cwc> busy lately, I haven't had time to look at them.  I know the numbers
cwc> are reasonable.  We are about 4 months from finishing the project we
cwc> are working on now.  When that is done, I'm going to sit down and
cwc> compare estimated to actual.

Re: [AFMUG] Backhauling fiber 80 miles at 10Gig

Paul,
We have an upcoming project for +5 rings, the longest is essentially a 
collapsed 60 mile fiber ring and as noted, a regen is required to support this 
distance.

  From: Paul McCall 
 To: "af@afmug.com"  
 Sent: Friday, April 14, 2017 9:00 PM
 Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Backhauling fiber 80 miles at 10Gig

 I am assuming that they will provide that, 
based on our conversations.  They want success for this as much as I do.     
From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com]On Behalf Of Eric Kuhnke
Sent: Friday, April 14, 2017 8:21 PM
To: af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Backhauling fiber 80 miles at 10Gig    80 miles of dark 
with no regen or hut with electricity for amplification in the middle?  Don't 
even think about trying it (even with special "160km" optics) until you have 
high quality OTDR shots in hand, shot from each direction on each strand.    On 
Thu, Apr 13, 2017 at 11:45 PM, Paul McCall  wrote: 
What equipment can we use (cost efficient) to light up 80 miles of dark fiber 
at 10gbit?

Paul, PDMNet

Re: [AFMUG] Backhauling fiber 80 miles at 10Gig

There's a bit more to it than that.  )

  From: Chuck McCown 
 To: af@afmug.com 
 Sent: Friday, April 14, 2017 6:05 PM
 Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Backhauling fiber 80 miles at 10Gig

#yiv6023612781 v\3a* {}#yiv6023612781 o\3a* {}#yiv6023612781 w\3a* 
{}#yiv6023612781 .yiv6023612781shape {}#yiv6023612781 #yiv6023612781 -- 
_filtered #yiv6023612781 {font-family:Helvetica;panose-1:2 11 6 4 2 2 2 2 2 4;} 
_filtered #yiv6023612781 {panose-1:2 4 5 3 5 4 6 3 2 4;} _filtered 
#yiv6023612781 {font-family:Calibri;panose-1:2 15 5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4;} _filtered 
#yiv6023612781 {font-family:Tahoma;panose-1:2 11 6 4 3 5 4 4 2 
4;}#yiv6023612781 #yiv6023612781 p.yiv6023612781MsoNormal, #yiv6023612781 
li.yiv6023612781MsoNormal, #yiv6023612781 div.yiv6023612781MsoNormal 
{margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;font-size:12.0pt;}#yiv6023612781 a:link, 
#yiv6023612781 span.yiv6023612781MsoHyperlink 
{color:blue;text-decoration:underline;}#yiv6023612781 a:visited, #yiv6023612781 
span.yiv6023612781MsoHyperlinkFollowed 
{color:purple;text-decoration:underline;}#yiv6023612781 
p.yiv6023612781msonormal0, #yiv6023612781 li.yiv6023612781msonormal0, 
#yiv6023612781 div.yiv6023612781msonormal0 
{margin-right:0in;margin-left:0in;font-size:12.0pt;}#yiv6023612781 
span.yiv6023612781apple-style-span {}#yiv6023612781 
span.yiv6023612781apple-converted-space {}#yiv6023612781 
span.yiv6023612781EmailStyle21 {color:windowtext;}#yiv6023612781 
span.yiv6023612781EmailStyle22 {color:windowtext;}#yiv6023612781 
span.yiv6023612781EmailStyle24 {color:windowtext;}#yiv6023612781 
.yiv6023612781MsoChpDefault {font-size:10.0pt;} _filtered #yiv6023612781 
{margin:1.0in 1.0in 1.0in 1.0in;}#yiv6023612781 div.yiv6023612781WordSection1 
{}#yiv6023612781 Passive optical muxing is just a cascade of splitters with the 
3dB per split.  So 8:1 passive mux is 2*2*2 so 9 dB theoretically, 11 or so in 
real life.   From: Paul McCall Sent: Friday, April 14, 2017 4:31 PMTo: 
af@afmug.com Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Backhauling fiber 80 miles at 10Gig Does 
using a mux require a “better” optical budget?   From: Af 
[mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Mike Hammett
Sent: Friday, April 14, 2017 6:31 PM
To: af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Backhauling fiber 80 miles at 10Gig   Not really. A mux is 
a mux. Just pay attention to insertion loss numbers to make sure you still have 
the optical budget you need. 

-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions

Midwest Internet Exchange

The Brothers WISP

 From: "Paul McCall" 
To: af@afmug.com
Sent: Friday, April 14, 2017 5:29:16 PM
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Backhauling fiber 80 miles at 10Gig Is  running an 8 
channel mux any more reliable than a 40 channel mux on a link of that distance? 
    From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Mike Hammett
Sent: Friday, April 14, 2017 6:22 PM
To: af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Backhauling fiber 80 miles at 10Gig   Cheaper to use a mux 
now than to figure out how to transition 10G of traffic elsewhere later when 
you need to take the link down to put a mux in?  :-p   

-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions

Midwest Internet Exchange

The Brothers WISP

 From: "Paul McCall" 
To: af@afmug.com
Sent: Friday, April 14, 2017 5:20:54 PM
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Backhauling fiber 80 miles at 10Gig I didn’t think of that 
but yes  that makes sense   From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of 
Cassidy B. Larson
Sent: Friday, April 14, 2017 2:19 PM
To: af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Backhauling fiber 80 miles at 10Gig   Not that you wont 
need them, but maybe someone else would and you can sell a channel to them?     
  On Apr 14, 2017, at 12:07 PM, Paul McCall  wrote:     Wow, 
I can’t imagine needing that many channels of 10G anytime in the near future.  
But, I guess ya never know   From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On 
Behalf Of Mike Hammett
Sent: Friday, April 14, 2017 1:26 PM
To: af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Backhauling fiber 80 miles at 10Gig     They do have 
smaller ones, but the cost of the mux isn't that much. Our 18 channel ones are 
about $1500 for the pair, IIRC.   

-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions

Midwest Internet Exchange

The Brothers WISP

 From: "Paul McCall" 
To: af@afmug.com
Sent: Friday, April 14, 2017 11:16:21 AM
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Backhauling fiber 80 miles at 10Gig  This looks like it 
supports 40 channels, I really just need one (for now), but if that is part of 
the HW config needed, 8 channel would be more than sufficient.     Paul   
From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Faisal Imtiaz
Sent: Friday, April 14, 2017 8:35 AM
To: af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Backhauling fiber 80 miles at 10Gig   Use this 
tool to help you understand and design LH fiber solutions.       
http://www.fs.com/support/dwdm-edfa-amplifier-for-long-haul-applications-100    
       Regards.

Re: [AFMUG] Calix E7-2 vs AdTran, Zhone, or?

Or ZTE.  Just came away from the NTCA show and our products compete 
exceptionally well.  
Options include indoor ONT w/ BBU or outdoor.

  From: Chuck McCown 
 To: af@afmug.com 
 Sent: Friday, April 14, 2017 6:02 PM
 Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Calix E7-2 vs AdTran, Zhone, or?

Like to compare with outdoor ONT with a battery backed power supply at the 
home with 1 POTS line.

-Original Message- 
From: Mark - Myakka Technologies
Sent: Friday, April 14, 2017 2:07 PM
To: af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Calix E7-2 vs AdTran, Zhone, or?

Chuck,

On the OLT side it will vary depending on how many cards we put in the
cage and how many people we actually put on a port.

Best case fully populate cage with 32 users per port that will handle
1792 customers about $34 per user.

In reality, a cage with 3 slots and an average of 25 users per port for
a total of about 600 users would be about $29 per user.

This does not include a 48v power plant to run the cage.  But as you
know the price per user on a port is not very much at all and slightly
varis based on density.

Hardware on the customer side for an ONT, BBU, splice case, etc.  Not
including labor or drop will range from a low of about $250 to about
$450 depending on if we use an indoor verses outdoor ONT, 2 vs 4 pots,
etc.

-- 
Best regards,
Mark                            mailto:m...@mailmt.com

Myakka Technologies, Inc.
www.MyakkaTech.com

Proud Sponsor of the Myakka City Relay For Life
http://www.RelayForLife.org/MyakkaCityFL

Please Donate at Please Donate at http://www.myakkatech.com/RFL.html
--

Friday, April 14, 2017, 3:38:54 PM, you wrote:

cwc> Just like to compare apples to apples with Calix.

cwc> -Original Message- 
cwc> From: Mark - Myakka Technologies
cwc> Sent: Friday, April 14, 2017 1:19 PM
cwc> To: af@afmug.com
cwc> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Calix E7-2 vs AdTran, Zhone, or?

cwc> Chuck,

cwc> not personally.  Those numbers are available to me.  I've been so
cwc> busy lately, I haven't had time to look at them.  I know the numbers
cwc> are reasonable.  We are about 4 months from finishing the project we
cwc> are working on now.  When that is done, I'm going to sit down and
cwc> compare estimated to actual.

Re: [AFMUG] Backhauling fiber 80 miles at 10Gig

A mux is simply multiplexing the signals, bandwidth, etc.
Sending some information to you on this and our team can provide more 
information if you're interested.
  From: Paul McCall 
 To: "af@afmug.com"  
 Sent: Friday, April 14, 2017 5:31 PM
 Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Backhauling fiber 80 miles at 10Gig

 Does using a mux 
require a “better” optical budget?    From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com]On 
Behalf Of Mike Hammett
Sent: Friday, April 14, 2017 6:31 PM
To: af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Backhauling fiber 80 miles at 10Gig    Not really. A mux 
is a mux. Just pay attention to insertion loss numbers to make sure you still 
have the optical budget you need. 

-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions

Midwest Internet Exchange

The Brothers WISP

 From:"Paul McCall" 
To: af@afmug.com
Sent: Friday, April 14, 2017 5:29:16 PM
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Backhauling fiber 80 miles at 10Gig Is  running an 8 
channel mux any more reliable than a 40 channel mux on a link of that distance? 
   From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com]On Behalf Of Mike Hammett
Sent: Friday, April 14, 2017 6:22 PM
To: af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Backhauling fiber 80 miles at 10Gig   Cheaper to use a mux 
now than to figure out how to transition 10G of traffic elsewhere later when 
you need to take the link down to put a mux in?  :-p   

-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions

Midwest Internet Exchange

The Brothers WISP

 From:"Paul McCall" 
To: af@afmug.com
Sent: Friday, April 14, 2017 5:20:54 PM
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Backhauling fiber 80 miles at 10Gig I didn’t think of that 
but yes  that makes sense   From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com]On Behalf Of 
Cassidy B. Larson
Sent: Friday, April 14, 2017 2:19 PM
To: af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Backhauling fiber 80 miles at 10Gig   Not that you wont 
need them, but maybe someone else would and you can sell a channel to them?     
On Apr 14, 2017, at 12:07 PM, Paul McCall  wrote:   Wow, I 
can’t imagine needing that many channels of 10G anytime in the near future.  
But, I guess ya never know   From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf 
Of Mike Hammett
Sent: Friday, April 14, 2017 1:26 PM
To: af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Backhauling fiber 80 miles at 10Gig   They do have smaller 
ones, but the cost of the mux isn't that much. Our 18 channel ones are about 
$1500 for the pair, IIRC. 

-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions

Midwest Internet Exchange

The Brothers WISP

 From: "Paul McCall" 
To: af@afmug.com
Sent: Friday, April 14, 2017 11:16:21 AM
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Backhauling fiber 80 miles at 10Gig This looks like it 
supports 40 channels, I really just need one (for now), but if that is part of 
the HW config needed, 8 channel would be more than sufficient.   Paul   From: 
Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Faisal Imtiaz
Sent: Friday, April 14, 2017 8:35 AM
To: af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Backhauling fiber 80 miles at 10Gig   Use this tool to 
help you understand and design LH fiber solutions.   
http://www.fs.com/support/dwdm-edfa-amplifier-for-long-haul-applications-100    
 Regards.   Faisal Imtiaz
Snappy Internet & Telecom
7266 SW 48 Street
Miami, FL 33155
Tel: 305 663 5518 x 232

Help-desk: (305)663-5518 Option 2 or Email: supp...@snappytelecom.net   
From: "Paul McCall" 
To: af@afmug.com
Sent: Friday, April 14, 2017 2:45:54 AM
Subject: [AFMUG] Backhauling fiber 80 miles at 10Gig 

What equipment can we use (cost efficient) to light up 80 miles of dark fiber 
at 10gbit?

Paul, PDMNet

Re: [AFMUG] Backhauling fiber 80 miles at 10Gig

Paul - 
Will send you some information on an option that may fit your requirements.
Parker

  From: Paul McCall 
 To: "af@afmug.com"  
 Sent: Friday, April 14, 2017 1:45 AM
 Subject: [AFMUG] Backhauling fiber 80 miles at 10Gig

 #yiv9330386729 P {margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;}What equipment can we use 
(cost efficient) to light up 80 miles of dark fiber at 10gbit?

Paul, PDMNet

Re: [AFMUG] Small Scale PON

2017-03-31 Thread PE R

Hello,
ZTE has not completed Interoperability Testing (IOT) with Ubiquiti, therefore, 
their EMS and ACS will not be able to manage our ONTs, nor, is there any 
guarantee that traffic will be passed.
Please feel free to contact me if you have any questions regarding ZTE IOT.
Thanks -
Parker

  From: Chuck Hogg 
 To: "af@afmug.com"  
 Sent: Friday, March 31, 2017 1:21 PM
 Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Small Scale PON

It works...I guess if you are looking to manage it in their platform, that 
might be difficult, but all you need is a profile for it on the OLT.
Regards,
Chuck
On Fri, Mar 31, 2017 at 2:07 PM,  wrote:

I would not expect any random ONT to have full functionality.  They might 
workish... From: Jason McKemie Sent: Friday, March 31, 2017 11:56 AMTo: 
af@afmug.com Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Small Scale PON So, other ONTs will work? The 
beta store is sold out of the Ubiquiti ONTs every time I check.

On Friday, March 31, 2017, Chuck Hogg  wrote:

 The UBNT equipment is plain GPON standard.  Works on other GPON equipment.  
ZTE included.     Regards,
Chuck   On Wed, Mar 29, 2017 at 1:24 PM, Jason McKemie 
 wrote:

I've got a couple reels of 3/8" steel cable. Definitely not light stuff...  

On Wednesday, March 29, 2017, Adam Moffett  wrote:

  1/4" steel cable + drop cable + jacketing   2+2 = 7   I'm sure that's not the 
bottom price, but it's not too far out of whack either.   Figure-8 is also 
wicked heavy.  The spool weight will surprise you.     -- Original Message 
-- From: "Jason McKemie"  To: 
"af@afmug.com"  Sent: 3/29/2017 1:01:44 PM Subject: Re: [AFMUG] 
Small Scale PON    
Yikes, I've bought 72 strand ADSS for less than that.

On Wednesday, March 29, 2017, Adam Moffett  wrote:

  The most recent quote I got was $0.83/ft. It's way expensive, but no separate 
messenger strand.     -- Original Message -- From: "Jason McKemie" 
 To: "af@afmug.com"  Sent: 
3/29/2017 11:54:27 AM Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Small Scale PON    
Gotcha. What sort of pricing are you getting on the 12 strand figure-8? I've 
been using ADSS up to this point since I can get closer to the neutral with it, 
but figure-8 might work in some new deployment scenarios.

On Wednesday, March 29, 2017, Adam Moffett  wrote:

  Figure-8 drop.   Flat drop cable at $0.16/foot would certainly be cost 
attractive, but I assumed it can't go 500' aerialsome poles are that far 
apart.     -- Original Message -- From: "Jason McKemie" 
 To: "af@afmug.com"  Sent: 
3/29/2017 11:35:14 AM Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Small Scale PON    
Were you figuring on doing this lashed or just the flat drop cable? I've got a 
couple scenarios that I was looking at using 12ct flat drop, but the only way I 
can think of to get it in the air is by using wedge clamps. Not sure if these 
are good for the distance between some of the utility poles out there.

On Wednesday, March 29, 2017, Adam Moffett  wrote:

I think the idea is you can run a 12 strand aerial cable down a rural road.  
Since you're using this skinny cable, you can use a $40 closure to put a PON 
coupler in front of the customer prem.

My quick estimate is the difference might be around $6,000 per mile.that 
changes with assumptions on how many houses are on that mile and so onmaybe 
$4k to $6k is fairer.

I don't have pricing from Calix.  I'm looking at Alphion...the ONT is pretty 
close to a routerboard.  The OLT is a lot more than a mikrotik switch, but cost 
per customer port (assuming 1:16 PON) is on par with a mid grade switch.  It's 
more than mikrotik, less than Juniper.  I can't share numbers due to NDA, but 
that's the idea.

We're looking at doing a whole rural town with 50 miles of road and 300 
households.  I haven't gotten down to brass tacks yet, but on the surface it 
seems like the savings is enough to buy a really nice bucket truck.

-Adam

-- Original Message --
From: "Chuck McCown" 
To: af@afmug.com
Sent: 3/27/2017 5:33:06 PM
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Small Scale PON

Years ago, there was a break even point on active vs PON.  If you had 16 or 
more in an area that could take a PON it was worth doing the PON.
But that was comparing Calix AE vs Calix PON.  If you do AE like Sterling I 
don't think PON is ever cost effective compared to Calix PON.

With PON you still have to have a drop to each home.  The cost of  the cable is 
in the placement, not in the cable itself.
So the question is, where do you place the splitter vs where do you place the 
switch and SFPs.  Personally, I would do it Sterling style on new greenfield.  
The ONLY reason I do it with the expensive

Re: [AFMUG] the unicorn is here! was: Small Scale PON

From: "ch...@wbmfg.com" <ch...@wbmfg.com>
To: af@afmug.com 
Sent: Tuesday, March 28, 2017 3:18 PM
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] the unicorn is here! was: Small Scale PON

Interesting in knowing if the uplink will do erps rings
If you're referring to the OLT that I am citing?  Yes.
  From: "ch...@wbmfg.com" <ch...@wbmfg.com>
 To: af@afmug.com 
 Sent: Tuesday, March 28, 2017 3:18 PM
 Subject: Re: [AFMUG] the unicorn is here! was: Small Scale PON

Interesting in knowing if the uplink will do erps rings. From: Gino Villarini 
Sent: Tuesday, March 28, 2017 2:16 PMTo: af@afmug.com Subject: Re: [AFMUG] the 
unicorn is here! was: Small Scale PON   From: Af <af-boun...@afmug.com> on 
behalf of PE R <hillrunner...@yahoo.com>
Reply-To: "af@afmug.com" <af@afmug.com>
Date: Monday, March 27, 2017 at 7:52 PM
To: "af@afmug.com" <af@afmug.com>
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Small Scale PON
 OLT subscriber ranges can actually range to 512 (vs 256) per OLT or higher, 
or, mix with XGS in the same shelf.

|    Gino Villarini |
| President |
| Metro Office Park #18 Suite 304 Guaynabo, Puerto Rico 00968 |

From: Josh Reynolds <j...@kyneticwifi.com>
To: af@afmug.com 
Sent: Monday, March 27, 2017 5:06 PM
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Small Scale PON
 Put it this way, for each connection on AE you have two SFP optics and a port 
on a switch. You also probably want to battery back that.  For gpon you just 
push your 8 or 16 or 32 subs to a splitter that can fit inside someone's pocket 
and then single strand to your OLT with your non-$800 or so from what I 
remember Calix Pon optic :P Battery back the OLT, sure, but that's anywhere 
from 64 to 256 subs per, and a lot lower battery requirements. I think your 
Calix experience has really skewed you to what's out there, to be fair. On Mar 
27, 2017 4:58 PM, "Chuck McCown" <ch...@wbmfg.com> wrote:

Yes and no.  Pretty much the same amount of fiber depending on where you 
locate the splitters or switches.   On AE you battery back the switch.   On 
GPON you battery back the OLT/OIM.     At the remote cabinet, you either have a 
cheap switch and SFPs. -or- You have an expensive OLT/OIM and splitter.         
   From: Josh Reynolds  Sent: Monday, March 27, 2017 3:53 PM To: af@afmug.com  
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Small Scale PON    AE requires a lot more electronics and 
optics. And fiber. And battery backup. Etc.    On Mar 27, 2017 4:33 PM, "Chuck 
McCown" <ch...@wbmfg.com> wrote:

Years ago, there was a break even point on active vs PON.  If you had 16 or 
more in an area that could take a PON it was worth doing the PON.
But that was comparing Calix AE vs Calix PON.  If you do AE like Sterling I 
don't think PON is ever cost effective compared to Calix PON.

With PON you still have to have a drop to each home.  The cost of  the cable is 
in the placement, not in the cable itself.
So the question is, where do you place the splitter vs where do you place the 
switch and SFPs.  Personally, I would do it Sterling style on new greenfield.  
The ONLY reason I do it with the expensive PON is we are a regulated common 
carrier with provider of last resort obligations.  I have to give POTS that is 
battery backed up, legally required to do this.

Cannot risk a 911 call not going through due to a power outage etc.  Cannot 
trust the customer to not unplug a UPS.

-Original Message- From: Adam Moffett
Sent: Monday, March 27, 2017 3:11 PM
To: af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Small Scale PON

Yeah, so PON vs AE was actually the next research project for me to
tackle.

It seems like there ought to be savings with PON because of lower fiber
count.lower fiber count ought to lead to smaller/cheaper enclosures.
Less junk at the head end too.  I haven't gotten that far yet, but I
was thinking I might "scrimp" with PON.  You're saying maybe not?

-- Original Message --
From: "Chuck McCown" <ch...@wbmfg.com>
To: af@afmug.com
Sent: 3/27/2017 4:54:08 PM
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Small Scale PON

I would be worried that it will go the way of some of  their other ideas.
Cheap... you get what you pay for.

FTTH, I would rather pay more and know it will be solid and be around in the 
years to come.
Not an area where you want to scrimp.  If you want to scrimp go active ethernet.

-Original Message- From: Adam Moffett
Sent: Monday, March 27, 2017 12:56 PM
To: af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Small Scale PON

WellI have to build with what's available today.  If I delay to wait
for the next hot product, I'll always be waiting.

Besides, I honestly don't know what Ubiquiti brings to the table that
other vendors don't.  I suppose it will be cost competitive, but that's
less important to me than having it just work.

-Adam

-- Original Message --
From: "Jon Langeler" <jon-ispli...@michwave.net>
To: af@afmug.com
Sent: 3/27/2017 2:52:03 PM
Su

Re: [AFMUG] the unicorn is here! was: Small Scale PON

G.8032...

  From: Josh Reynolds <j...@kyneticwifi.com>
 To: af@afmug.com 
 Sent: Tuesday, March 28, 2017 6:40 PM
 Subject: Re: [AFMUG] the unicorn is here! was: Small Scale PON

Again: NO
On Mar 28, 2017 6:26 PM, "Gino Villarini" <g...@aeronetpr.com> wrote:

No?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ Ethernet_Ring_Protection_ Switching
From: Af <af-boun...@afmug.com> on behalf of Josh Reynolds 
<j...@kyneticwifi.com>
Reply-To: "af@afmug.com" <af@afmug.com>
Date: Tuesday, March 28, 2017 at 6:51 PM
To: "af@afmug.com" <af@afmug.com>
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] the unicorn is here! was: Small Scale PON

Nope...

|  Gino Villarini |
| President |
| Metro Office Park #18 Suite 304 Guaynabo, Puerto Rico 00968 |

On Mar 28, 2017 5:38 PM, "Gino Villarini" <g...@aeronetpr.com> wrote:

Huh ist it G8032? Even Planet Sw have it
From: Af <af-boun...@afmug.com> on behalf of Josh Reynolds 
<j...@kyneticwifi.com>
Reply-To: "af@afmug.com" <af@afmug.com>
Date: Tuesday, March 28, 2017 at 4:35 PM
To: "af@afmug.com" <af@afmug.com>
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] the unicorn is here! was: Small Scale PON

No Erps, that's a Extreme Networks standard anyway.

|  Gino Villarini |
| President |
| Metro Office Park #18 Suite 304 Guaynabo, Puerto Rico 00968 |

On Mar 28, 2017 3:18 PM, <ch...@wbmfg.com> wrote:

Interesting in knowing if the uplink will do erps rings. From: Gino Villarini 
Sent: Tuesday, March 28, 2017 2:16 PMTo: af@afmug.com Subject: Re: [AFMUG] the 
unicorn is here! was: Small Scale PON   From: Af <af-boun...@afmug.com> on 
behalf of PE R <hillrunner...@yahoo.com>
Reply-To: "af@afmug.com" <af@afmug.com>
Date: Monday, March 27, 2017 at 7:52 PM
To: "af@afmug.com" <af@afmug.com>
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Small Scale PON
 OLT subscriber ranges can actually range to 512 (vs 256) per OLT or higher, 
or, mix with XGS in the same shelf.

|  Gino Villarini |
| President |
| Metro Office Park #18 Suite 304 Guaynabo, Puerto Rico 00968 |

From: Josh Reynolds <j...@kyneticwifi.com>
To: af@afmug.com 
Sent: Monday, March 27, 2017 5:06 PM
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Small Scale PON
 Put it this way, for each connection on AE you have two SFP optics and a port 
on a switch. You also probably want to battery back that. For gpon you just 
push your 8 or 16 or 32 subs to a splitter that can fit inside someone's pocket 
and then single strand to your OLT with your non-$800 or so from what I 
remember Calix Pon optic :P Battery back the OLT, sure, but that's anywhere 
from 64 to 256 subs per, and a lot lower battery requirements. I think your 
Calix experience has really skewed you to what's out there, to be fair. On Mar 
27, 2017 4:58 PM, "Chuck McCown" <ch...@wbmfg.com> wrote:

Yes and no.  Pretty much the same amount of fiber depending on where you locate 
the splitters or switches. On AE you battery back the switch.  On GPON you 
battery back the OLT/OIM.   At the remote cabinet, you either have a cheap 
switch and SFPs.-or-You have an expensive OLT/OIM and splitter.     From: Josh 
Reynolds Sent: Monday, March 27, 2017 3:53 PMTo: af@afmug.com Subject: Re: 
[AFMUG] Small Scale PON AE requires a lot more electronics and optics. And 
fiber. And battery backup. Etc. On Mar 27, 2017 4:33 PM, "Chuck McCown" 
<ch...@wbmfg.com> wrote:

Years ago, there was a break even point on active vs PON.  If you had 16 or 
more in an area that could take a PON it was worth doing the PON.
But that was comparing Calix AE vs Calix PON.  If you do AE like Sterling I 
don't think PON is ever cost effective compared to Calix PON.

With PON you still have to have a drop to each home.  The cost of  the cable is 
in the placement, not in the cable itself.
So the question is, where do you place the splitter vs where do you place the 
switch and SFPs.  Personally, I would do it Sterling style on new greenfield.  
The ONLY reason I do it with the expensive PON is we are a regulated common 
carrier with provider of last resort obligations.  I have to give POTS that is 
battery backed up, legally required to do this.

Cannot risk a 911 call not going through due to a power outage etc.  Cannot 
trust the customer to not unplug a UPS.

-Original Message- From: Adam Moffett
Sent: Monday, March 27, 2017 3:11 PM
To: af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Small Scale PON

Yeah, so PON vs AE was actually the next research project for me to
tackle.

It seems like there ought to be savings with PON because of lower fiber
count.lower fiber count ought to lead to smaller/cheaper enclosures.
Less junk at the head end too.  I haven't gotten that far yet, but I
was thinking I might "scrimp" with PON.  You're saying maybe not?

-- Original Message --
From: "Chuck McCown" <ch...@wbmfg.com>
To: af@afmug.com
Sent: 3/27/2017 4:54:08 PM
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Sm

Re: [AFMUG] is: Small Scale PON

Yes, the OLT does support rings.

  From: Gino Villarini <g...@aeronetpr.com>
 To: "af@afmug.com" <af@afmug.com> 
 Sent: Tuesday, March 28, 2017 6:26 PM
 Subject: Re: [AFMUG] the unicorn is here! was: Small Scale PON

 No?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethernet_Ring_Protection_Switching
From: Af <af-boun...@afmug.com> on behalf of Josh Reynolds 
<j...@kyneticwifi.com>
Reply-To: "af@afmug.com" <af@afmug.com>
Date: Tuesday, March 28, 2017 at 6:51 PM
To: "af@afmug.com" <af@afmug.com>
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] the unicorn is here! was: Small Scale PON

Nope...

|  Gino Villarini |
| President |
| Metro Office Park #18 Suite 304 Guaynabo, Puerto Rico 00968 |

On Mar 28, 2017 5:38 PM, "Gino Villarini" <g...@aeronetpr.com> wrote:

Huh ist it G8032? Even Planet Sw have it
From: Af <af-boun...@afmug.com> on behalf of Josh Reynolds 
<j...@kyneticwifi.com>
Reply-To: "af@afmug.com" <af@afmug.com>
Date: Tuesday, March 28, 2017 at 4:35 PM
To: "af@afmug.com" <af@afmug.com>
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] the unicorn is here! was: Small Scale PON

No Erps, that's a Extreme Networks standard anyway.

|  Gino Villarini |
| President |
| Metro Office Park #18 Suite 304 Guaynabo, Puerto Rico 00968 |

On Mar 28, 2017 3:18 PM, <ch...@wbmfg.com> wrote:

Interesting in knowing if the uplink will do erps rings. From: Gino Villarini 
Sent: Tuesday, March 28, 2017 2:16 PMTo: af@afmug.com Subject: Re: [AFMUG] the 
unicorn is here! was: Small Scale PON   From: Af <af-boun...@afmug.com> on 
behalf of PE R <hillrunner...@yahoo.com>
Reply-To: "af@afmug.com" <af@afmug.com>
Date: Monday, March 27, 2017 at 7:52 PM
To: "af@afmug.com" <af@afmug.com>
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Small Scale PON
 OLT subscriber ranges can actually range to 512 (vs 256) per OLT or higher, 
or, mix with XGS in the same shelf.

|  Gino Villarini |
| President |
| Metro Office Park #18 Suite 304 Guaynabo, Puerto Rico 00968 |

From: Josh Reynolds <j...@kyneticwifi.com>
To: af@afmug.com 
Sent: Monday, March 27, 2017 5:06 PM
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Small Scale PON
 Put it this way, for each connection on AE you have two SFP optics and a port 
on a switch. You also probably want to battery back that. For gpon you just 
push your 8 or 16 or 32 subs to a splitter that can fit inside someone's pocket 
and then single strand to your OLT with your non-$800 or so from what I 
remember Calix Pon optic :P Battery back the OLT, sure, but that's anywhere 
from 64 to 256 subs per, and a lot lower battery requirements. I think your 
Calix experience has really skewed you to what's out there, to be fair. On Mar 
27, 2017 4:58 PM, "Chuck McCown" <ch...@wbmfg.com> wrote:

Yes and no.  Pretty much the same amount of fiber depending on where you locate 
the splitters or switches. On AE you battery back the switch.  On GPON you 
battery back the OLT/OIM.   At the remote cabinet, you either have a cheap 
switch and SFPs.-or-You have an expensive OLT/OIM and splitter.     From: Josh 
Reynolds Sent: Monday, March 27, 2017 3:53 PMTo: af@afmug.com Subject: Re: 
[AFMUG] Small Scale PON AE requires a lot more electronics and optics. And 
fiber. And battery backup. Etc. On Mar 27, 2017 4:33 PM, "Chuck McCown" 
<ch...@wbmfg.com> wrote:

Years ago, there was a break even point on active vs PON.  If you had 16 or 
more in an area that could take a PON it was worth doing the PON.
But that was comparing Calix AE vs Calix PON.  If you do AE like Sterling I 
don't think PON is ever cost effective compared to Calix PON.

With PON you still have to have a drop to each home.  The cost of  the cable is 
in the placement, not in the cable itself.
So the question is, where do you place the splitter vs where do you place the 
switch and SFPs.  Personally, I would do it Sterling style on new greenfield.  
The ONLY reason I do it with the expensive PON is we are a regulated common 
carrier with provider of last resort obligations.  I have to give POTS that is 
battery backed up, legally required to do this.

Cannot risk a 911 call not going through due to a power outage etc.  Cannot 
trust the customer to not unplug a UPS.

-Original Message- From: Adam Moffett
Sent: Monday, March 27, 2017 3:11 PM
To: af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Small Scale PON

Yeah, so PON vs AE was actually the next research project for me to
tackle.

It seems like there ought to be savings with PON because of lower fiber
count.lower fiber count ought to lead to smaller/cheaper enclosures.
Less junk at the head end too.  I haven't gotten that far yet, but I
was thinking I might "scrimp" with PON.  You're saying maybe not?

-- Original Message --
From: "Chuck McCown" <ch...@wbmfg.com>
To: af@afmug.com
Sent: 3/27/2017 4:54:08 PM
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Small Scale PON

I would be worried that it

Re: [AFMUG] is: Small Scale PON

From: Jason McKemie <j.mcke...@veloxinetbroadband.com>
To: "af@afmug.com" <af@afmug.com> 
Sent: Tuesday, March 28, 2017 3:34 PM
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] the unicorn is here! was: Small Scale PON

Does it come with the optics?
Yes, the OLT does come with the optics whether it is 256, 512 or more.  
Speaking specifically of the ZTE OLT.  Cannot speak for other vendors.

  From: Jason McKemie <j.mcke...@veloxinetbroadband.com>
 To: "af@afmug.com" <af@afmug.com> 
 Sent: Tuesday, March 28, 2017 3:34 PM
 Subject: Re: [AFMUG] the unicorn is here! was: Small Scale PON

Does it come with the optics?
On Tue, Mar 28, 2017 at 3:16 PM, Gino Villarini <g...@aeronetpr.com> wrote:

From: Af <af-boun...@afmug.com> on behalf of PE R <hillrunner...@yahoo.com>
Reply-To: "af@afmug.com" <af@afmug.com>
Date: Monday, March 27, 2017 at 7:52 PM
To: "af@afmug.com" <af@afmug.com>
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Small Scale PON

OLT subscriber ranges can actually range to 512 (vs 256) per OLT or higher, or, 
mix with XGS in the same shelf.

|  Gino Villarini |
| President |
| Metro Office Park #18 Suite 304 Guaynabo, Puerto Rico 00968 |

From: Josh Reynolds <j...@kyneticwifi.com>
To: af@afmug.com 
Sent: Monday, March 27, 2017 5:06 PM
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Small Scale PON

Put it this way, for each connection on AE you have two SFP optics and a port 
on a switch. You also probably want to battery back that.
For gpon you just push your 8 or 16 or 32 subs to a splitter that can fit 
inside someone's pocket and then single strand to your OLT with your non-$800 
or so from what I remember Calix Pon optic :P
Battery back the OLT, sure, but that's anywhere from 64 to 256 subs per, and a 
lot lower battery requirements.
I think your Calix experience has really skewed you to what's out there, to be 
fair.
On Mar 27, 2017 4:58 PM, "Chuck McCown" <ch...@wbmfg.com> wrote:

Yes and no.  Pretty much the same amount of fiber depending on where you locate 
the splitters or switches. On AE you battery back the switch.  On GPON you 
battery back the OLT/OIM.  At the remote cabinet, you either have a cheap 
switch and SFPs.-or-You have an expensive OLT/OIM and splitter.     From: Josh 
Reynolds Sent: Monday, March 27, 2017 3:53 PMTo: af@afmug.com Subject: Re: 
[AFMUG] Small Scale PON AE requires a lot more electronics and optics. And 
fiber. And battery backup. Etc. On Mar 27, 2017 4:33 PM, "Chuck McCown" 
<ch...@wbmfg.com> wrote:

Years ago, there was a break even point on active vs PON.  If you had 16 or 
more in an area that could take a PON it was worth doing the PON.
But that was comparing Calix AE vs Calix PON.  If you do AE like Sterling I 
don't think PON is ever cost effective compared to Calix PON.

With PON you still have to have a drop to each home.  The cost of  the cable is 
in the placement, not in the cable itself.
So the question is, where do you place the splitter vs where do you place the 
switch and SFPs.  Personally, I would do it Sterling style on new greenfield.  
The ONLY reason I do it with the expensive PON is we are a regulated common 
carrier with provider of last resort obligations.  I have to give POTS that is 
battery backed up, legally required to do this.

Cannot risk a 911 call not going through due to a power outage etc.  Cannot 
trust the customer to not unplug a UPS.

-Original Message- From: Adam Moffett
Sent: Monday, March 27, 2017 3:11 PM
To: af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Small Scale PON

Yeah, so PON vs AE was actually the next research project for me to
tackle.

It seems like there ought to be savings with PON because of lower fiber
count.lower fiber count ought to lead to smaller/cheaper enclosures.
Less junk at the head end too.  I haven't gotten that far yet, but I
was thinking I might "scrimp" with PON.  You're saying maybe not?

-- Original Message --
From: "Chuck McCown" <ch...@wbmfg.com>
To: af@afmug.com
Sent: 3/27/2017 4:54:08 PM
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Small Scale PON

I would be worried that it will go the way of some of  their other ideas.
Cheap... you get what you pay for.

FTTH, I would rather pay more and know it will be solid and be around in the 
years to come.
Not an area where you want to scrimp.  If you want to scrimp go active ethernet.

-Original Message- From: Adam Moffett
Sent: Monday, March 27, 2017 12:56 PM
To: af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Small Scale PON

WellI have to build with what's available today.  If I delay to wait
for the next hot product, I'll always be waiting.

Besides, I honestly don't know what Ubiquiti brings to the table that
other vendors don't.  I suppose it will be cost competitive, but that's
less important to me than having it just work.

-Adam

-- Original Message --
From: "Jon Langeler" <jon-ispli...@michwave.net>
To: af@afmug.com
Sent: 3/27/2017 2:

Re: [AFMUG] Small Scale PON

2017-03-27 Thread PE R

The WAN side of an OLT is a L2/L3 switch; the PON side is the G.984 and/or 
Active E portion of the technology.

  From: Jason McKemie 
 To: "af@afmug.com"  
 Sent: Monday, March 27, 2017 5:04 PM
 Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Small Scale PON

So it's really just a matter of how you're deploying.  I wouldn't have an 
active cabinet everywhere I would put a splitter.
On Mon, Mar 27, 2017 at 5:02 PM, Josh Reynolds  wrote:

Switches take cabinets and power. Splitters do not.
On Mar 27, 2017 4:58 PM, "Chuck McCown"  wrote:

Yes and no.  Pretty much the same amount of fiber depending on where you locate 
the splitters or switches. On AE you battery back the switch.  On GPON you 
battery back the OLT/OIM.   At the remote cabinet, you either have a cheap 
switch and SFPs.-or-You have an expensive OLT/OIM and splitter.     From: Josh 
Reynolds Sent: Monday, March 27, 2017 3:53 PMTo: af@afmug.com Subject: Re: 
[AFMUG] Small Scale PON AE requires a lot more electronics and optics. And 
fiber. And battery backup. Etc. On Mar 27, 2017 4:33 PM, "Chuck McCown" 
 wrote:

Years ago, there was a break even point on active vs PON.  If you had 16 or 
more in an area that could take a PON it was worth doing the PON.
But that was comparing Calix AE vs Calix PON.  If you do AE like Sterling I 
don't think PON is ever cost effective compared to Calix PON.

With PON you still have to have a drop to each home.  The cost of  the cable is 
in the placement, not in the cable itself.
So the question is, where do you place the splitter vs where do you place the 
switch and SFPs.  Personally, I would do it Sterling style on new greenfield.  
The ONLY reason I do it with the expensive PON is we are a regulated common 
carrier with provider of last resort obligations.  I have to give POTS that is 
battery backed up, legally required to do this.

Cannot risk a 911 call not going through due to a power outage etc.  Cannot 
trust the customer to not unplug a UPS.

-Original Message- From: Adam Moffett
Sent: Monday, March 27, 2017 3:11 PM
To: af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Small Scale PON

Yeah, so PON vs AE was actually the next research project for me to
tackle.

It seems like there ought to be savings with PON because of lower fiber
count.lower fiber count ought to lead to smaller/cheaper enclosures.
Less junk at the head end too.  I haven't gotten that far yet, but I
was thinking I might "scrimp" with PON.  You're saying maybe not?

-- Original Message --
From: "Chuck McCown" 
To: af@afmug.com
Sent: 3/27/2017 4:54:08 PM
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Small Scale PON

I would be worried that it will go the way of some of  their other ideas.
Cheap... you get what you pay for.

FTTH, I would rather pay more and know it will be solid and be around in the 
years to come.
Not an area where you want to scrimp.  If you want to scrimp go active ethernet.

-Original Message- From: Adam Moffett
Sent: Monday, March 27, 2017 12:56 PM
To: af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Small Scale PON

WellI have to build with what's available today.  If I delay to wait
for the next hot product, I'll always be waiting.

Besides, I honestly don't know what Ubiquiti brings to the table that
other vendors don't.  I suppose it will be cost competitive, but that's
less important to me than having it just work.

-Adam

-- Original Message --
From: "Jon Langeler" 
To: af@afmug.com
Sent: 3/27/2017 2:52:03 PM
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Small Scale PON

With ubiquiti shipping real soon, you might want to wait

Jon Langeler
Michwave Technologies, Inc.

On Mar 27, 2017, at 2:47 PM, Adam Moffett  wrote:

I asked the Alphion sales rep about this.  He says the optics are coded, yes.  
As far as mixing ONT from one vendor with an OLT from another he said in 
essence GPON is a standard, but it isn't usually tested across vendors so 
whether it works fine, works with bugs, or doesn't work at all is going to be a 
matter of chance.

-- Original Message --
From: fiber...@mail.com
To: af@afmug.com
Sent: 3/23/2017 2:54:04 PM
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Small Scale PON

No, generally speaking there is no crossvendor compatibility with GPON.

Jared

Re: [AFMUG] Small Scale PON

2017-03-27 Thread PE R

OLT subscriber ranges can actually range to 512 (vs 256) per OLT or higher, or, 
mix with XGS in the same shelf.

  From: Josh Reynolds 
 To: af@afmug.com 
 Sent: Monday, March 27, 2017 5:06 PM
 Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Small Scale PON

Put it this way, for each connection on AE you have two SFP optics and a port 
on a switch. You also probably want to battery back that.
For gpon you just push your 8 or 16 or 32 subs to a splitter that can fit 
inside someone's pocket and then single strand to your OLT with your non-$800 
or so from what I remember Calix Pon optic :P
Battery back the OLT, sure, but that's anywhere from 64 to 256 subs per, and a 
lot lower battery requirements.
I think your Calix experience has really skewed you to what's out there, to be 
fair.
On Mar 27, 2017 4:58 PM, "Chuck McCown"  wrote:

Yes and no.  Pretty much the same amount of fiber depending on where you locate 
the splitters or switches. On AE you battery back the switch.  On GPON you 
battery back the OLT/OIM.   At the remote cabinet, you either have a cheap 
switch and SFPs.-or-You have an expensive OLT/OIM and splitter.     From: Josh 
Reynolds Sent: Monday, March 27, 2017 3:53 PMTo: af@afmug.com Subject: Re: 
[AFMUG] Small Scale PON AE requires a lot more electronics and optics. And 
fiber. And battery backup. Etc. On Mar 27, 2017 4:33 PM, "Chuck McCown" 
 wrote:

Years ago, there was a break even point on active vs PON.  If you had 16 or 
more in an area that could take a PON it was worth doing the PON.
But that was comparing Calix AE vs Calix PON.  If you do AE like Sterling I 
don't think PON is ever cost effective compared to Calix PON.

With PON you still have to have a drop to each home.  The cost of  the cable is 
in the placement, not in the cable itself.
So the question is, where do you place the splitter vs where do you place the 
switch and SFPs.  Personally, I would do it Sterling style on new greenfield.  
The ONLY reason I do it with the expensive PON is we are a regulated common 
carrier with provider of last resort obligations.  I have to give POTS that is 
battery backed up, legally required to do this.

Cannot risk a 911 call not going through due to a power outage etc.  Cannot 
trust the customer to not unplug a UPS.

-Original Message- From: Adam Moffett
Sent: Monday, March 27, 2017 3:11 PM
To: af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Small Scale PON

Yeah, so PON vs AE was actually the next research project for me to
tackle.

It seems like there ought to be savings with PON because of lower fiber
count.lower fiber count ought to lead to smaller/cheaper enclosures.
Less junk at the head end too.  I haven't gotten that far yet, but I
was thinking I might "scrimp" with PON.  You're saying maybe not?

-- Original Message --
From: "Chuck McCown" 
To: af@afmug.com
Sent: 3/27/2017 4:54:08 PM
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Small Scale PON

I would be worried that it will go the way of some of  their other ideas.
Cheap... you get what you pay for.

FTTH, I would rather pay more and know it will be solid and be around in the 
years to come.
Not an area where you want to scrimp.  If you want to scrimp go active ethernet.

-Original Message- From: Adam Moffett
Sent: Monday, March 27, 2017 12:56 PM
To: af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Small Scale PON

WellI have to build with what's available today.  If I delay to wait
for the next hot product, I'll always be waiting.

Besides, I honestly don't know what Ubiquiti brings to the table that
other vendors don't.  I suppose it will be cost competitive, but that's
less important to me than having it just work.

-Adam

-- Original Message --
From: "Jon Langeler" 
To: af@afmug.com
Sent: 3/27/2017 2:52:03 PM
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Small Scale PON

With ubiquiti shipping real soon, you might want to wait

Jon Langeler
Michwave Technologies, Inc.

On Mar 27, 2017, at 2:47 PM, Adam Moffett  wrote:

I asked the Alphion sales rep about this.  He says the optics are coded, yes.  
As far as mixing ONT from one vendor with an OLT from another he said in 
essence GPON is a standard, but it isn't usually tested across vendors so 
whether it works fine, works with bugs, or doesn't work at all is going to be a 
matter of chance.

-- Original Message --
From: fiber...@mail.com
To: af@afmug.com
Sent: 3/23/2017 2:54:04 PM
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Small Scale PON

No, generally speaking there is no crossvendor compatibility with GPON.

Jared

Re: [AFMUG] Small Scale PON

2017-03-27 Thread PE R

The overall architecture for GPON, as defined by the ITU, etc., is fairly 
ubquitous.  eg  All vendors design their systems from the ITU G.984 standards, 
for example.  All use TDMA, ONU > T-CONT structure, etc.  The details are in 
the communications and management between devices.  ZTE is pretty close to the 
standards and we've had pretty good success interoperating with ONTs from other 
vendors with some minor IOT work.  
But, it isn't the optics...it is the OMCI (G.984) and TR-247 requirements.

  From: Adam Moffett 
 To: af@afmug.com 
 Sent: Monday, March 27, 2017 1:47 PM
 Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Small Scale PON

I asked the Alphion sales rep about this.  He says the optics are coded, 
yes.  As far as mixing ONT from one vendor with an OLT from another he 
said in essence GPON is a standard, but it isn't usually tested across 
vendors so whether it works fine, works with bugs, or doesn't work at 
all is going to be a matter of chance.

-- Original Message --
From: fiber...@mail.com
To: af@afmug.com
Sent: 3/23/2017 2:54:04 PM
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Small Scale PON

>No, generally speaking there is no crossvendor compatibility with GPON.
>
>Jared
>
>
>

Re: [AFMUG] Small Scale PON

2017-03-23 Thread PE R

There is some vendor interoperability within the GPON market, which ZTE does 
support based on customer requirements.  

  From: "fiber...@mail.com" <fiber...@mail.com>
 To: af@afmug.com 
 Sent: Thursday, March 23, 2017 1:54 PM
 Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Small Scale PON

No, generally speaking there is no crossvendor compatibility with GPON. 

Jared

Sent: Thursday, March 23, 2017
From: "Jason McKemie" <j.mcke...@veloxinetbroadband.com>
To: "af@afmug.com" <af@afmug.com>
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Small Scale PON
Interesting, are these open standards? Looks like they're sold out of the ONT.

On Thursday, March 23, 2017, Chuck Hogg 
<ch...@shelbybb.com[mailto:ch...@shelbybb.com]> wrote:
Was/is on the UBNT beta store now...

Regards,
Chuck 
On Wed, Mar 22, 2017 at 6:14 PM, Jason McKemie 
<j.mcke...@veloxinetbroadband.com> wrote:But when is this actually going to be 
available?

On Wednesday, March 22, 2017, Keefe John <keefe...@ethoplex.com> wrote:
How does it compare to UBNT new uFiber OLT?
8-Port GPON Optical Line Terminal

8 Gigabit Passive Optical Network Ports
Supports up to 1024 Clients (128 per PON Port)
Up to 2.488 Gbps TX and 1.244 Gbps RX
Supports up to 20 km GPON Links
Two 1G/10G SFP+ Ethernet Ports
Flexible Layer 2/3 Management Features
FastEthernet port for management
Console serial port for management

On 3/22/2017 5:02 PM, PE R wrote:

If anyone has any questions regarding ZTE products, to include our GPON, TDD 
LTE or transport products, please feel free to contact me.

Best -

Parker Reed
Director of Sales
ZTE USA

Re: [AFMUG] Small Scale PON

ZTE's C320 is shipping now along with trials in work.

  From: Jason McKemie <j.mcke...@veloxinetbroadband.com>
 To: "af@afmug.com" <af@afmug.com> 
 Sent: Wednesday, March 22, 2017 5:14 PM
 Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Small Scale PON

But when is this actually going to be available?

On Wednesday, March 22, 2017, Keefe John <keefe...@ethoplex.com> wrote:

  How does it compare to UBNT new uFiber OLT? 8-Port GPON Optical Line Terminal

 8 Gigabit Passive Optical Network Ports
 Supports up to 1024 Clients (128 per PON Port)
 Up to 2.488 Gbps TX and 1.244 Gbps RX
 Supports up to 20 km GPON Links
 Two 1G/10G SFP+ Ethernet Ports
 Flexible Layer 2/3 Management Features
 FastEthernet port for management
 Console serial port for management

 On 3/22/2017 5:02 PM, PE R wrote:

 If anyone has any questions regarding ZTE products, to include our GPON, 
TDD LTE or transport products, please feel free to contact me. 
  Best - 
  Parker Reed Director of Sales ZTE USA

Re: [AFMUG] Small Scale PON

Compares quite well, and, the backplane provides scalability for XGS-PON if 
interested. 

  From: Keefe John <keefe...@ethoplex.com>
 To: af@afmug.com 
 Sent: Wednesday, March 22, 2017 5:04 PM
 Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Small Scale PON

  How does it compare to UBNT new uFiber OLT? 8-Port GPON Optical Line Terminal

 8 Gigabit Passive Optical Network Ports
 Supports up to 1024 Clients (128 per PON Port)
 Up to 2.488 Gbps TX and 1.244 Gbps RX
 Supports up to 20 km GPON Links
 Two 1G/10G SFP+ Ethernet Ports
 Flexible Layer 2/3 Management Features
 FastEthernet port for management
 Console serial port for management

 On 3/22/2017 5:02 PM, PE R wrote:

 If anyone has any questions regarding ZTE products, to include our GPON, 
TDD LTE or transport products, please feel free to contact me. 
  Best - 
  Parker Reed Director of Sales ZTE USA

Re: [AFMUG] Small-scale GPON

ZTE's WAN and LAN cards have SFPs.
Parker ReedZTE USA

  From: George Skorup 
 To: af@afmug.com 
 Sent: Tuesday, March 21, 2017 8:49 PM
 Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Small-scale GPON

  I assume ZTE doesn't care about SFP branding?

 On 3/21/2017 7:05 PM, Chuck Hogg wrote:

  It's not open standard.  They key their optics like calix.  
  On Tue, Mar 7, 2017 at 12:11 AM Josh Reynolds  wrote:

 Seriously though... Alphion obviously doesn't have the level of software 
toys/tools that Calix does obviously, but when the cost is like 1/8th, you can 
spend that money on contractors and OLTs and ONTs and get way more subs 
installed much faster - and it's something that is still based on open 
standards. 
  That's a hard business proposition to ignore.  
   On Mar 6, 2017 6:59 PM, "Paul Stewart"  wrote:

 haha… yeah fair enough ;)   

 On Mar 6, 2017, at 7:04 PM, Josh Reynolds  wrote: 

  It can be different when you're the one paying for it :)  

   On Mar 6, 2017 5:13 PM, "Paul Stewart"  wrote:

 Interesting …. do they work ok? 
  I came from Calix and Adtran world for GPON/ONT stuff … considerably more  
than that.  I did look at some DWDM stuff from China and it was total junk in 
my opinion - some  people like it .. not my thing. 

 On Mar 6, 2017, at 2:48 PM, Chuck Hogg  wrote: 

  I'm importing direct from China.  16Port OLT with Class Optics and Power 
Supply for $3200.  ONT's for $25.  PLC's from $2-10 depending on the split.  
Check Alibaba.  

  Regards,
 Chuck  

   On Mon, Mar 6, 2017 at 2:31 PM, George Skorup  
wrote:

  Yup. My plan is to start 32:1 and knock  it down to 16:1 and throw in another 
OLT if needed.

 On 3/6/2017 12:01 PM, Josh Reynolds wrote:

 Google did 32x1. Common at the time of their initial deployment was  64x1. The 
company I just got off the ground did 16x1.  
 On Mar 6, 2017 11:47 AM, "Sterling Jacobson"  wrote:

   AE gets to be a headache with power costs and heat control in cabinets.  
  Low oversub GPON is plenty good for now and probably well into the future.  
  I believe that is what Google did, maybe 8:1 max split?  
  The temptation with GPON is to stretch it to the limits, which might cause 
some re-splicing  down the road if you want super high FDX.  
  AE doesn’t have that problem even with equipment a decade old I can still 
supply the same SFP+  switch with 180Gbps each if I want to carry that much on 
the backhaul.  Equipment is super cheap, and it’s essentially backwards  
compatible with GPON if your neighborhood runs are short like mine. But  again, 
lots of power is required.  
 From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Chuck McCown
 Sent: Sunday, March 5, 2017 8:08 AM
 To: af@afmug.com
 Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Small-scale GPON    
 Calix has NG PON2 which does 10 Gbps per wavelength and multiple  
wavelengths all overlaid on GPON so nothing in the OSP has to  change.  All the 
splitters etc still work.  That will give everyone on the PON 312.5 Mbps 
symmetrical  all at the same time.  Sooversubscribing 3:1 you could sell 1G 
symmetrical to everyone and probably not run out of headroom.    
 From: Carlos AlcantarSent: Sunday, March 05, 2017 3:35 AMTo: 
af@afmug.com Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Small-scale GPON  
   to add to this post with the new PON technologies being released  this 
year giving everyone 1G FDX is going to be a non issue.    

  Carlos Alcantar Race Communications / Race Team Member  1325 Howard Ave. 
#604, Burlingame, CA. 94010 Phone: +1 415 376 3314 / car...@race.com / 
http://www.race.com  
 From: Af  on behalf of George Skorup 

 Sent: Saturday, March 4, 2017 8:44:29 PM
 To: af@afmug.com
 Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Small-scale GPON    
 I'm not really worried about POTS and RF. Everyone is using cell  phones 
and watching Netflix.

 The AE deployment is a total waste of equipment and resources  for the 
utilization we're seeing. I have to go there next week and turn up another 
switch. The 1Gbps feed is averaging less than 100Mbps  every night. The network 
owner was convinced that everyone had  to have 1G FDX. They just don't realize 
how much electronics and power is required for 1k ports. There's less than 100 
customers so  far, so please, for the love of god, lets fix this now! We'll see 
what happens.

 Anyway.. this project we're looking to do on our own is a neighborhood  of 
rich bitches. We already have PMP450 there and it works  fine. They "want more 
speed" and if they're willing to

[AFMUG] Small Scale PON