Re: [AFMUG] Particularly good recent battery deals?

[Lewis Bergman]

y as part of that.  Reducing your
> consumption should reduce your part of the Maintenance till you get to the
> fixed fee.   But adding another fee because you reduce your consumption is
> crazy.
>
>
> On 2/7/17 4:59 PM, Forrest Christian (List Account) wrote:
>
> Here's the problem with net metering as I see it:
>
> Today, the simplistic net metering rules which were enacted basically
> require the utility company to take energy from you, "store it" somehow,
> and then return it to you at no cost to you.  So the utility company is
> stuck with footing the bill for maintaining the line to you and all the
> infrastructure needed to fulfill your needs when the sun isn't down.
> This just doesn't seem fare, and yes, it drives the cost up for all of
> the 'solar have-nots'.
>
> On the other hand, some of the stuff the utility companies are trying to
> get away with is also highway robbery.   Buying at wholesale rates from
> customers and selling it back to them at retail seems unfair.  Charging
> "capacity fees" seems bad as well.   The really irritating thing is the
> utilities who are starting to charge a 'solar used on the premises'
> charge which basically means if you are using solar to reduce your grid
> energy consumption and not selling excess back to the grid, they'll
> still charge you for being tied to the grid based on how much capacity
> you have.
>
> The quicker that the energy companies figure out that they are not only
> energy providers, but that they should be energy storage companies as
> well the better.   That way, you could have a 'buy energy from the
> energy company' rate, and a 'store energy for me rate'.  And none of
> this crap they're trying to pull right now.  If you don't want to have
> the utility company store it for you at whatever rate they're charging,
> then you go buy a powerwall and then only buy energy from the utility
> company when you need a bit here or there (subject to a meter minimum or
> similar).
>
> On Tue, Feb 7, 2017 at 4:58 PM, Robert Andrews <i...@avantwireless.com
> <mailto:i...@avantwireless.com>> wrote:
>
> What really sucks about this deal is that they claim that they do
> this so rich people who can afford solar are still contributing to
> the cost of maintaining the grid instead of transferring that burden
> to poor people.   Cry me a fkn river...   They kind of neglect that
> they are making up more than 20% line loss from solar plants
> distributing source power closer to the loads.This is a YUGE
> savings off losses that they don't get compensated for and goes
> straight into their pockets. Fuel savings, build savings, wear and
> tear savings...   They are a bunch of thieves looking in our pockets
> for their next golden parachute..
>
> On 02/07/2017 08:55 AM, Harold Bledsoe wrote:
>
> Apologies to Eric for hijacking his thread...
>
> It does suck and the logic is flawed.  Do they charge more for
> folks
> that switched to LED bulbs?  No.  Do they charge more for folks
> that
> have smaller houses, better insulation, or choose not to run the AC
> sometimes?  No.
>
> If I had more free time I'd stand up for the principle but at the
> moment, islanding will just have to do.  :-)  I suppose I could
> try to
> summon the reddit but I do still need electricity for now.
>
> -Hal
>
> On Tue, Feb 7, 2017 at 11:31 AM Chuck McCown <ch...@wbmfg.com
>     <mailto:ch...@wbmfg.com>
>
> <mailto:ch...@wbmfg.com <mailto:ch...@wbmfg.com>>> wrote:
>
> I have 10 kW so it would be an extra $70... that sucks.
> Yeah, I would be buying batts and inverters too.
>
> *From:* Harold Bledsoe
> *Sent:* Tuesday, February 07, 2017 9:24 AM
>
> *To:* af@afmug.com <mailto:af@afmug.com>
>
>
> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Particularly good recent battery deals?
>
>
> When we first did it, we had to pay a $5/mo "administrative"
> fee for
> having net metering.  Effective Jan 1, they charge an
> additional
> $7/kw of installed capacity to offset the lower power usage.
>
> I think this new charge literally effects only 1 of their
> customers.  I believe their fear is that things like Tesla
>     powerwall
> will take off and they won't be able to afford their current
> lifestyle.  ;-)
> On Tue, Feb 7, 2017 at 9:32 AM Chuck McCown <ch...@wbmfg.com
>
> <mailto:ch...@wbmfg.com>> wrote:
>

Re: [AFMUG] Particularly good recent battery deals?

[Harold Bledsoe]

o the grid, they'll
> still charge you for being tied to the grid based on how much capacity
> you have.
>
> The quicker that the energy companies figure out that they are not only
> energy providers, but that they should be energy storage companies as
> well the better.   That way, you could have a 'buy energy from the
> energy company' rate, and a 'store energy for me rate'.  And none of
> this crap they're trying to pull right now.  If you don't want to have
> the utility company store it for you at whatever rate they're charging,
> then you go buy a powerwall and then only buy energy from the utility
> company when you need a bit here or there (subject to a meter minimum or
> similar).
>
> On Tue, Feb 7, 2017 at 4:58 PM, Robert Andrews <i...@avantwireless.com
> <mailto:i...@avantwireless.com>> wrote:
>
> What really sucks about this deal is that they claim that they do
> this so rich people who can afford solar are still contributing to
> the cost of maintaining the grid instead of transferring that burden
> to poor people.   Cry me a fkn river...   They kind of neglect that
> they are making up more than 20% line loss from solar plants
> distributing source power closer to the loads.This is a YUGE
> savings off losses that they don't get compensated for and goes
> straight into their pockets. Fuel savings, build savings, wear and
> tear savings...   They are a bunch of thieves looking in our pockets
> for their next golden parachute..
>
> On 02/07/2017 08:55 AM, Harold Bledsoe wrote:
>
> Apologies to Eric for hijacking his thread...
>
> It does suck and the logic is flawed.  Do they charge more for
> folks
> that switched to LED bulbs?  No.  Do they charge more for folks
> that
> have smaller houses, better insulation, or choose not to run the AC
> sometimes?  No.
>
> If I had more free time I'd stand up for the principle but at the
> moment, islanding will just have to do.  :-)  I suppose I could
> try to
> summon the reddit but I do still need electricity for now.
>
> -Hal
>
> On Tue, Feb 7, 2017 at 11:31 AM Chuck McCown <ch...@wbmfg.com
> <mailto:ch...@wbmfg.com>
>
>     <mailto:ch...@wbmfg.com <mailto:ch...@wbmfg.com>>> wrote:
>
> I have 10 kW so it would be an extra $70... that sucks.
> Yeah, I would be buying batts and inverters too.
>
> *From:* Harold Bledsoe
> *Sent:* Tuesday, February 07, 2017 9:24 AM
>
> *To:* af@afmug.com <mailto:af@afmug.com>
>
>
> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Particularly good recent battery deals?
>
>
> When we first did it, we had to pay a $5/mo "administrative"
> fee for
> having net metering.  Effective Jan 1, they charge an
> additional
> $7/kw of installed capacity to offset the lower power usage.
>
> I think this new charge literally effects only 1 of their
> customers.  I believe their fear is that things like Tesla
> powerwall
> will take off and they won't be able to afford their current
> lifestyle.  ;-)
> On Tue, Feb 7, 2017 at 9:32 AM Chuck McCown <ch...@wbmfg.com
>
> <mailto:ch...@wbmfg.com>> wrote:
>
> I pay 8.50/month.  Flat rate.
> So you are getting a demand charge added?
>
> *From:* Harold Bledsoe
> *Sent:* Monday, February 06, 2017 5:37 PM
>
> *To:* af@afmug.com <mailto:af@afmug.com>
>
>
> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Particularly good recent battery
>
>
> deals?
>
> Agreed!
>
> I'm going to pull the trigger and try the forklift
> batteries.
> Supposedly they will last 3-5x longer than regular deep
> cycle
> golf cart batteries. I'll let you guys know in 10-15 years.
>
> My motivation is that my home grid tied system saves too
> much
> power so the power company added a net meter fee of
> $7/kw/mo to
> make up the difference.
>
> Alrighty then, guess I'll take half my house off grid. :-)
>
> Hal
>
> On Mon, Feb 6, 2017 at 1:27 PM Eric Kuhnke
>
> <eric.kuh...@gmail.com <mailto:eric.kuh...@gmail.com>>
>
>
> wrote:
>
> Anything rated in CCA (cold cranking amps) is not
>  

Re: [AFMUG] Particularly good recent battery deals?

[Robert Andrews]

Powerwall

On 02/08/2017 02:22 PM, Ken Hohhof wrote:

As we move toward more plug-in electric vehicles, the idea seems to be they 
will charge at your house in the middle of the night.  But assuming we also 
move toward more wind and solar energy, the middle of the night is not a good 
time (no sun, no wind).  So should we instead be thinking about charging our 
EVs in the parking lot at work?  Maybe put a solar panel on the roof of the 
vehicle so it doesn't have to be plugged in?  Where is this all going?  
DeLoreans that run on trash?


-Original Message-
From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Chuck McCown
Sent: Wednesday, February 8, 2017 4:16 PM
To: af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Particularly good recent battery deals?

I get 100% credit for the energy I produce.  I have an $8.50 minimum bill.
But if I am a net producer, the account gets zeroed out each March.  I will not 
lose much as my array is sized just about right.

-Original Message-
From: Robert Andrews
Sent: Wednesday, February 08, 2017 3:13 PM
To: af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Particularly good recent battery deals?

At least here in NV, it's only a 9/10ths offset and the offset is calculated 
month to month and settled at the end of the year.

On 02/08/2017 12:00 PM, Forrest Christian (List Account) wrote:

There are numerous things which at utility-scale become more feasible
when storing energy.  Flow batteries are a good example.   Another is
storage of energy via various methods of potential energy such as
pumping water to a reservoir.   Or cracking hydrogen from water and then
burning it when you need it.  Or dozens of other options.

I don't feel that every one of us maintaining our own storage system
is necessarily the most green idea.  Generally as a homeowner I'll end
up buying a solution which may last 5 years and then I have to replace it.
Utilities can afford to buy 20 or 30 year lifetime storage plants.
When the conversation becomes 'how do we reform the grid so it is now
a sharing and storage system' then we can start talking about useful
things with the grid - and how to pay for it.   The problem is that the
concept of what the grid is is not in line with what it needs to be come.

The other thing you need to realize is that the cost of maintaining
the grid is the same whether you use it or not.  The line to my house
costs the energy company the exact same money to maintain it whether I
pull no energy or a lot of energy.  The sizing of the line is based on
peaks, not consumption.  Just like sizing a wireless network - you
have to plan for worst case and your costs for the transmission lines
are set based on that worst case load.  The problem is that the
billing for the transmission lines has always been set based on usage, not peak 
load.
Solar is changing the ratio of demand to usage and in many cases
making it worse.  I know of at least a few homeowners who have moved
their home heating to 100% electric - increasing their demand on the
grid during winter, and offsetting that 100% with solar during the summer 
months.
The system needs to be sized for the winter loads - and the costs
associated with it are incurred accordingly.  So those homeowners have
increased the cost of the transmission system by their winter demand,
yet are not paying anything at all to the utility company.  (In the
cases I know of the net metering law permits 100% offset of the energy
charges).




On Tue, Feb 7, 2017 at 7:49 PM, Robert <i...@avantwireless.com
<mailto:i...@avantwireless.com>> wrote:

They cannot "Store Energy" except by the process of not producing
it. i.e. turning the consumption down of fuel, or water or whatever
is turning the turbines.   That does NOT cost them anything except
the lost profit of selling it to you.   The infrastructure is paid
for at construction.  Ask most developers or someone who doesn't
have power already plumbed to a location.   Maintenance, yes it
calculated into the price per KW, and yes there is also fixed fees
that you pay as part of that.  Reducing your consumption should
reduce your part of the Maintenance till you get to the fixed fee.
 But adding another fee because you reduce your consumption is crazy.


On 2/7/17 4:59 PM, Forrest Christian (List Account) wrote:

Here's the problem with net metering as I see it:

Today, the simplistic net metering rules which were enacted
basically
require the utility company to take energy from you, "store it"
somehow,
and then return it to you at no cost to you.  So the utility
company is
stuck with footing the bill for maintaining the line to you and
all the
infrastructure needed to fulfill your needs when the sun isn't
down.
This just doesn't seem fare, and yes, it drives the cost up for
all of
the 'solar have-nots'.

On the other hand, some of

Re: [AFMUG] Particularly good recent battery deals?

[Ken Hohhof]

As we move toward more plug-in electric vehicles, the idea seems to be they 
will charge at your house in the middle of the night.  But assuming we also 
move toward more wind and solar energy, the middle of the night is not a good 
time (no sun, no wind).  So should we instead be thinking about charging our 
EVs in the parking lot at work?  Maybe put a solar panel on the roof of the 
vehicle so it doesn't have to be plugged in?  Where is this all going?  
DeLoreans that run on trash?


-Original Message-
From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Chuck McCown
Sent: Wednesday, February 8, 2017 4:16 PM
To: af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Particularly good recent battery deals?

I get 100% credit for the energy I produce.  I have an $8.50 minimum bill. 
But if I am a net producer, the account gets zeroed out each March.  I will not 
lose much as my array is sized just about right.

-Original Message-
From: Robert Andrews
Sent: Wednesday, February 08, 2017 3:13 PM
To: af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Particularly good recent battery deals?

At least here in NV, it's only a 9/10ths offset and the offset is calculated 
month to month and settled at the end of the year.

On 02/08/2017 12:00 PM, Forrest Christian (List Account) wrote:
> There are numerous things which at utility-scale become more feasible
> when storing energy.  Flow batteries are a good example.   Another is
> storage of energy via various methods of potential energy such as
> pumping water to a reservoir.   Or cracking hydrogen from water and then
> burning it when you need it.  Or dozens of other options.
>
> I don't feel that every one of us maintaining our own storage system 
> is necessarily the most green idea.  Generally as a homeowner I'll end 
> up buying a solution which may last 5 years and then I have to replace it.
> Utilities can afford to buy 20 or 30 year lifetime storage plants.
> When the conversation becomes 'how do we reform the grid so it is now 
> a sharing and storage system' then we can start talking about useful
> things with the grid - and how to pay for it.   The problem is that the
> concept of what the grid is is not in line with what it needs to be come.
>
> The other thing you need to realize is that the cost of maintaining 
> the grid is the same whether you use it or not.  The line to my house 
> costs the energy company the exact same money to maintain it whether I 
> pull no energy or a lot of energy.  The sizing of the line is based on 
> peaks, not consumption.  Just like sizing a wireless network - you 
> have to plan for worst case and your costs for the transmission lines 
> are set based on that worst case load.  The problem is that the 
> billing for the transmission lines has always been set based on usage, not 
> peak load.
> Solar is changing the ratio of demand to usage and in many cases 
> making it worse.  I know of at least a few homeowners who have moved 
> their home heating to 100% electric - increasing their demand on the 
> grid during winter, and offsetting that 100% with solar during the summer 
> months.
> The system needs to be sized for the winter loads - and the costs 
> associated with it are incurred accordingly.  So those homeowners have 
> increased the cost of the transmission system by their winter demand, 
> yet are not paying anything at all to the utility company.  (In the 
> cases I know of the net metering law permits 100% offset of the energy 
> charges).
>
>
>
>
> On Tue, Feb 7, 2017 at 7:49 PM, Robert <i...@avantwireless.com 
> <mailto:i...@avantwireless.com>> wrote:
>
> They cannot "Store Energy" except by the process of not producing
> it. i.e. turning the consumption down of fuel, or water or whatever
> is turning the turbines.   That does NOT cost them anything except
> the lost profit of selling it to you.   The infrastructure is paid
> for at construction.  Ask most developers or someone who doesn't
> have power already plumbed to a location.   Maintenance, yes it
> calculated into the price per KW, and yes there is also fixed fees
> that you pay as part of that.  Reducing your consumption should
> reduce your part of the Maintenance till you get to the fixed fee.
>  But adding another fee because you reduce your consumption is crazy.
>
>
> On 2/7/17 4:59 PM, Forrest Christian (List Account) wrote:
>
> Here's the problem with net metering as I see it:
>
> Today, the simplistic net metering rules which were enacted
> basically
> require the utility company to take energy from you, "store it"
> somehow,
> and then return it to you at no cost to you.  So the utility
> company is
> stuck with footing the b

Re: [AFMUG] Particularly good recent battery deals?

[Chuck McCown]

I get 100% credit for the energy I produce.  I have an $8.50 minimum bill. 
But if I am a net producer, the account gets zeroed out each March.  I will 
not lose much as my array is sized just about right.


-Original Message- 
From: Robert Andrews

Sent: Wednesday, February 08, 2017 3:13 PM
To: af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Particularly good recent battery deals?

At least here in NV, it's only a 9/10ths offset and the offset is
calculated month to month and settled at the end of the year.

On 02/08/2017 12:00 PM, Forrest Christian (List Account) wrote:

There are numerous things which at utility-scale become more feasible
when storing energy.  Flow batteries are a good example.   Another is
storage of energy via various methods of potential energy such as
pumping water to a reservoir.   Or cracking hydrogen from water and then
burning it when you need it.  Or dozens of other options.

I don't feel that every one of us maintaining our own storage system is
necessarily the most green idea.  Generally as a homeowner I'll end up
buying a solution which may last 5 years and then I have to replace it.
Utilities can afford to buy 20 or 30 year lifetime storage plants.
When the conversation becomes 'how do we reform the grid so it is now a
sharing and storage system' then we can start talking about useful
things with the grid - and how to pay for it.   The problem is that the
concept of what the grid is is not in line with what it needs to be come.

The other thing you need to realize is that the cost of maintaining the
grid is the same whether you use it or not.  The line to my house costs
the energy company the exact same money to maintain it whether I pull no
energy or a lot of energy.  The sizing of the line is based on peaks,
not consumption.  Just like sizing a wireless network - you have to plan
for worst case and your costs for the transmission lines are set based
on that worst case load.  The problem is that the billing for the
transmission lines has always been set based on usage, not peak load.
Solar is changing the ratio of demand to usage and in many cases making
it worse.  I know of at least a few homeowners who have moved their home
heating to 100% electric - increasing their demand on the grid during
winter, and offsetting that 100% with solar during the summer months.
The system needs to be sized for the winter loads - and the costs
associated with it are incurred accordingly.  So those homeowners have
increased the cost of the transmission system by their winter demand,
yet are not paying anything at all to the utility company.  (In the
cases I know of the net metering law permits 100% offset of the energy
charges).




On Tue, Feb 7, 2017 at 7:49 PM, Robert <i...@avantwireless.com
<mailto:i...@avantwireless.com>> wrote:

They cannot "Store Energy" except by the process of not producing
it. i.e. turning the consumption down of fuel, or water or whatever
is turning the turbines.   That does NOT cost them anything except
the lost profit of selling it to you.   The infrastructure is paid
for at construction.  Ask most developers or someone who doesn't
have power already plumbed to a location.   Maintenance, yes it
calculated into the price per KW, and yes there is also fixed fees
that you pay as part of that.  Reducing your consumption should
reduce your part of the Maintenance till you get to the fixed fee.
 But adding another fee because you reduce your consumption is crazy.


On 2/7/17 4:59 PM, Forrest Christian (List Account) wrote:

Here's the problem with net metering as I see it:

Today, the simplistic net metering rules which were enacted
basically
require the utility company to take energy from you, "store it"
somehow,
and then return it to you at no cost to you.  So the utility
company is
stuck with footing the bill for maintaining the line to you and
all the
infrastructure needed to fulfill your needs when the sun isn't 
down.

This just doesn't seem fare, and yes, it drives the cost up for
all of
the 'solar have-nots'.

On the other hand, some of the stuff the utility companies are
trying to
get away with is also highway robbery.   Buying at wholesale
rates from
customers and selling it back to them at retail seems unfair.
Charging
"capacity fees" seems bad as well.   The really irritating thing
is the
utilities who are starting to charge a 'solar used on the 
premises'

charge which basically means if you are using solar to reduce
your grid
energy consumption and not selling excess back to the grid, 
they'll

still charge you for being tied to the grid based on how much
capacity
you have.

The quicker that the energy companies figure out that they are

Re: [AFMUG] Particularly good recent battery deals?

[Robert Andrews]

 at whatever rate they're
charging,
then you go buy a powerwall and then only buy energy from the
utility
company when you need a bit here or there (subject to a meter
minimum or
similar).

On Tue, Feb 7, 2017 at 4:58 PM, Robert Andrews
<i...@avantwireless.com <mailto:i...@avantwireless.com>
<mailto:i...@avantwireless.com <mailto:i...@avantwireless.com>>>
wrote:

What really sucks about this deal is that they claim that
they do
this so rich people who can afford solar are still
contributing to
the cost of maintaining the grid instead of transferring
that burden
to poor people.   Cry me a fkn river...   They kind of
neglect that
they are making up more than 20% line loss from solar plants
distributing source power closer to the loads.This is a YUGE
savings off losses that they don't get compensated for and goes
straight into their pockets. Fuel savings, build savings,
wear and
tear savings...   They are a bunch of thieves looking in our
pockets
for their next golden parachute..

On 02/07/2017 08:55 AM, Harold Bledsoe wrote:

Apologies to Eric for hijacking his thread...

It does suck and the logic is flawed.  Do they charge
more for folks
that switched to LED bulbs?  No.  Do they charge more
for folks that
have smaller houses, better insulation, or choose not to
run the AC
sometimes?  No.

If I had more free time I'd stand up for the principle
but at the
moment, islanding will just have to do.  :-)  I suppose
I could
try to
summon the reddit but I do still need electricity for now.

-Hal

On Tue, Feb 7, 2017 at 11:31 AM Chuck McCown
<ch...@wbmfg.com <mailto:ch...@wbmfg.com>
<mailto:ch...@wbmfg.com <mailto:ch...@wbmfg.com>>
<mailto:ch...@wbmfg.com <mailto:ch...@wbmfg.com>
<mailto:ch...@wbmfg.com <mailto:ch...@wbmfg.com>>>> wrote:

I have 10 kW so it would be an extra $70... that sucks.
Yeah, I would be buying batts and inverters too.

*From:* Harold Bledsoe
*Sent:* Tuesday, February 07, 2017 9:24 AM
*To:* af@afmug.com <mailto:af@afmug.com>
<mailto:af@afmug.com <mailto:af@afmug.com>>
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Particularly good recent
battery deals?
When we first did it, we had to pay a $5/mo
"administrative"
fee for
having net metering.  Effective Jan 1, they charge
an additional
$7/kw of installed capacity to offset the lower
power usage.

I think this new charge literally effects only 1 of
their
customers.  I believe their fear is that things like
Tesla
powerwall
will take off and they won't be able to afford their
current
lifestyle.  ;-)
On Tue, Feb 7, 2017 at 9:32 AM Chuck McCown
<ch...@wbmfg.com <mailto:ch...@wbmfg.com>
<mailto:ch...@wbmfg.com <mailto:ch...@wbmfg.com>>> wrote:

I pay 8.50/month.  Flat rate.
So you are getting a demand charge added?

*From:* Harold Bledsoe
*Sent:* Monday, February 06, 2017 5:37 PM
        *To:* af@afmug.com <mailto:af@afmug.com>
<mailto:af@afmug.com <mailto:af@afmug.com>>
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Particularly good recent
battery
deals?

Agreed!

I'm going to pull the trigger and try the forklift
batteries.
Supposedly they will last 3-5x longer than
regular deep
cycle
golf cart batteries. I'll let you guys know in
10-15 years.

My motivation is that my home grid tied system
saves too
much
power so the power company added a net meter fee of
$7/kw/mo to
make up the difference.

Alrighty then, guess I'll take half my house off
grid. :-)

Hal

On Mon, Feb 6, 2017 at 1:27 PM Eric Kuhnke
<eric.kuh...@gmail.com
  

Re: [AFMUG] Particularly good recent battery deals?

[Forrest Christian (List Account)]

Andrews <i...@avantwireless.com
>> <mailto:i...@avantwireless.com>> wrote:
>>
>> What really sucks about this deal is that they claim that they do
>> this so rich people who can afford solar are still contributing to
>> the cost of maintaining the grid instead of transferring that burden
>> to poor people.   Cry me a fkn river...   They kind of neglect that
>> they are making up more than 20% line loss from solar plants
>> distributing source power closer to the loads.This is a YUGE
>> savings off losses that they don't get compensated for and goes
>> straight into their pockets. Fuel savings, build savings, wear and
>> tear savings...   They are a bunch of thieves looking in our pockets
>> for their next golden parachute..
>>
>> On 02/07/2017 08:55 AM, Harold Bledsoe wrote:
>>
>> Apologies to Eric for hijacking his thread...
>>
>> It does suck and the logic is flawed.  Do they charge more for
>> folks
>> that switched to LED bulbs?  No.  Do they charge more for folks
>> that
>> have smaller houses, better insulation, or choose not to run the
>> AC
>> sometimes?  No.
>>
>> If I had more free time I'd stand up for the principle but at the
>> moment, islanding will just have to do.  :-)  I suppose I could
>> try to
>> summon the reddit but I do still need electricity for now.
>>
>> -Hal
>>
>> On Tue, Feb 7, 2017 at 11:31 AM Chuck McCown <ch...@wbmfg.com
>> <mailto:ch...@wbmfg.com>
>> <mailto:ch...@wbmfg.com <mailto:ch...@wbmfg.com>>> wrote:
>>
>> I have 10 kW so it would be an extra $70... that sucks.
>> Yeah, I would be buying batts and inverters too.
>>
>> *From:* Harold Bledsoe
>> *Sent:* Tuesday, February 07, 2017 9:24 AM
>> *To:* af@afmug.com <mailto:af@afmug.com>
>> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Particularly good recent battery deals?
>> When we first did it, we had to pay a $5/mo "administrative"
>> fee for
>> having net metering.  Effective Jan 1, they charge an
>> additional
>> $7/kw of installed capacity to offset the lower power usage.
>>
>> I think this new charge literally effects only 1 of their
>> customers.  I believe their fear is that things like Tesla
>> powerwall
>> will take off and they won't be able to afford their current
>> lifestyle.  ;-)
>> On Tue, Feb 7, 2017 at 9:32 AM Chuck McCown <ch...@wbmfg.com
>> <mailto:ch...@wbmfg.com>> wrote:
>>
>> I pay 8.50/month.  Flat rate.
>> So you are getting a demand charge added?
>>
>> *From:* Harold Bledsoe
>> *Sent:* Monday, February 06, 2017 5:37 PM
>> *To:* af@afmug.com <mailto:af@afmug.com>
>> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Particularly good recent battery
>> deals?
>>
>> Agreed!
>>
>> I'm going to pull the trigger and try the forklift
>> batteries.
>> Supposedly they will last 3-5x longer than regular deep
>> cycle
>> golf cart batteries. I'll let you guys know in 10-15
>> years.
>>
>> My motivation is that my home grid tied system saves too
>> much
>> power so the power company added a net meter fee of
>> $7/kw/mo to
>> make up the difference.
>>
>> Alrighty then, guess I'll take half my house off grid. :-)
>>
>> Hal
>>
>> On Mon, Feb 6, 2017 at 1:27 PM Eric Kuhnke
>> <eric.kuh...@gmail.com <mailto:eric.kuh...@gmail.com>>
>> wrote:
>>
>> Anything rated in CCA (cold cranking amps) is not
>> suitable
>> for cyclic solar/wind power applications. If the
>> manufacturer hasn't clearly specified Ah capacity in
>> a table
>> at 5, 10, 20 hour rates it's not designed for repeated
>> discharge.
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Feb 6, 2017 at 5:01 AM, Harold Bledsoe
>> <hbledso...@gmail.com &l

Re: [AFMUG] Particularly good recent battery deals?

[Adam Moffett]

 I know there are mechanical methodsgiant flywheels, water 
reservoirs.

I don't know how practical it is at a large scale.

-- Original Message --
From: "Bill Prince" <part15...@gmail.com>
To: af@afmug.com
Sent: 2/7/2017 10:00:10 PM
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Particularly good recent battery deals?

Who is "they" here? In California, the power companies are under orders 
to add storage capabilities to accommodate intermittent production and 
avoid the problems of starting/stopping generation stations.



bp
<part15sbs{at}gmail{dot}com>

On 2/7/2017 6:49 PM, Robert wrote:
They cannot "Store Energy" except by the process of not producing it. 
i.e. turning the consumption down of fuel, or water or whatever is 
turning the turbines.   That does NOT cost them anything except the 
lost profit of selling it to you.   The infrastructure is paid for at 
construction.  Ask most developers or someone who doesn't have power 
already plumbed to a location. Maintenance, yes it calculated into the 
price per KW, and yes there is also fixed fees that you pay as part of 
that.  Reducing your consumption should reduce your part of the 
Maintenance till you get to the fixed fee.   But adding another fee 
because you reduce your consumption is crazy.


On 2/7/17 4:59 PM, Forrest Christian (List Account) wrote:

Here's the problem with net metering as I see it:

Today, the simplistic net metering rules which were enacted basically
require the utility company to take energy from you, "store it" 
somehow,
and then return it to you at no cost to you.  So the utility company 
is
stuck with footing the bill for maintaining the line to you and all 
the

infrastructure needed to fulfill your needs when the sun isn't down.
This just doesn't seem fare, and yes, it drives the cost up for all 
of

the 'solar have-nots'.

On the other hand, some of the stuff the utility companies are trying 
to
get away with is also highway robbery.   Buying at wholesale rates 
from
customers and selling it back to them at retail seems unfair. 
Charging
"capacity fees" seems bad as well.   The really irritating thing is 
the

utilities who are starting to charge a 'solar used on the premises'
charge which basically means if you are using solar to reduce your 
grid

energy consumption and not selling excess back to the grid, they'll
still charge you for being tied to the grid based on how much 
capacity

you have.

The quicker that the energy companies figure out that they are not 
only

energy providers, but that they should be energy storage companies as
well the better.   That way, you could have a 'buy energy from the
energy company' rate, and a 'store energy for me rate'.  And none of
this crap they're trying to pull right now.  If you don't want to 
have
the utility company store it for you at whatever rate they're 
charging,

then you go buy a powerwall and then only buy energy from the utility
company when you need a bit here or there (subject to a meter minimum 
or

similar).

On Tue, Feb 7, 2017 at 4:58 PM, Robert Andrews 
<i...@avantwireless.com

<mailto:i...@avantwireless.com>> wrote:

What really sucks about this deal is that they claim that they do
this so rich people who can afford solar are still contributing 
to
the cost of maintaining the grid instead of transferring that 
burden
to poor people.   Cry me a fkn river...   They kind of neglect 
that

they are making up more than 20% line loss from solar plants
distributing source power closer to the loads.This is a YUGE
savings off losses that they don't get compensated for and goes
straight into their pockets. Fuel savings, build savings, wear 
and
tear savings...   They are a bunch of thieves looking in our 
pockets

for their next golden parachute..

On 02/07/2017 08:55 AM, Harold Bledsoe wrote:

Apologies to Eric for hijacking his thread...

It does suck and the logic is flawed.  Do they charge more 
for folks
that switched to LED bulbs?  No.  Do they charge more for 
folks that
have smaller houses, better insulation, or choose not to run 
the AC

sometimes?  No.

If I had more free time I'd stand up for the principle but at 
the
moment, islanding will just have to do.  :-)  I suppose I 
could

try to
summon the reddit but I do still need electricity for now.

-Hal

On Tue, Feb 7, 2017 at 11:31 AM Chuck McCown <ch...@wbmfg.com
<mailto:ch...@wbmfg.com>
<mailto:ch...@wbmfg.com <mailto:ch...@wbmfg.com>>> wrote:

I have 10 kW so it would be an extra $70... that sucks.
Yeah, I would be buying batts and inverters too.

*From:* Harold Bledsoe
*Sent:* Tuesday, February 07, 2017 9:24 AM
    *To:* af@afmug.com <mailto:af@afmug.com>
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Particula

Re: [AFMUG] Particularly good recent battery deals?

[Bill Prince]

Who is "they" here? In California, the power companies are under orders 
to add storage capabilities to accommodate intermittent production and 
avoid the problems of starting/stopping generation stations.



bp
<part15sbs{at}gmail{dot}com>

On 2/7/2017 6:49 PM, Robert wrote:
They cannot "Store Energy" except by the process of not producing it. 
i.e. turning the consumption down of fuel, or water or whatever is 
turning the turbines.   That does NOT cost them anything except the 
lost profit of selling it to you.   The infrastructure is paid for at 
construction.  Ask most developers or someone who doesn't have power 
already plumbed to a location. Maintenance, yes it calculated into the 
price per KW, and yes there is also fixed fees that you pay as part of 
that.  Reducing your consumption should reduce your part of the 
Maintenance till you get to the fixed fee.   But adding another fee 
because you reduce your consumption is crazy.


On 2/7/17 4:59 PM, Forrest Christian (List Account) wrote:

Here's the problem with net metering as I see it:

Today, the simplistic net metering rules which were enacted basically
require the utility company to take energy from you, "store it" somehow,
and then return it to you at no cost to you.  So the utility company is
stuck with footing the bill for maintaining the line to you and all the
infrastructure needed to fulfill your needs when the sun isn't down.
This just doesn't seem fare, and yes, it drives the cost up for all of
the 'solar have-nots'.

On the other hand, some of the stuff the utility companies are trying to
get away with is also highway robbery.   Buying at wholesale rates from
customers and selling it back to them at retail seems unfair. Charging
"capacity fees" seems bad as well.   The really irritating thing is the
utilities who are starting to charge a 'solar used on the premises'
charge which basically means if you are using solar to reduce your grid
energy consumption and not selling excess back to the grid, they'll
still charge you for being tied to the grid based on how much capacity
you have.

The quicker that the energy companies figure out that they are not only
energy providers, but that they should be energy storage companies as
well the better.   That way, you could have a 'buy energy from the
energy company' rate, and a 'store energy for me rate'.  And none of
this crap they're trying to pull right now.  If you don't want to have
the utility company store it for you at whatever rate they're charging,
then you go buy a powerwall and then only buy energy from the utility
company when you need a bit here or there (subject to a meter minimum or
similar).

On Tue, Feb 7, 2017 at 4:58 PM, Robert Andrews <i...@avantwireless.com
<mailto:i...@avantwireless.com>> wrote:

What really sucks about this deal is that they claim that they do
this so rich people who can afford solar are still contributing to
the cost of maintaining the grid instead of transferring that burden
to poor people.   Cry me a fkn river...   They kind of neglect that
they are making up more than 20% line loss from solar plants
distributing source power closer to the loads.This is a YUGE
savings off losses that they don't get compensated for and goes
straight into their pockets. Fuel savings, build savings, wear and
tear savings...   They are a bunch of thieves looking in our pockets
for their next golden parachute..

On 02/07/2017 08:55 AM, Harold Bledsoe wrote:

Apologies to Eric for hijacking his thread...

It does suck and the logic is flawed.  Do they charge more 
for folks
that switched to LED bulbs?  No.  Do they charge more for 
folks that
have smaller houses, better insulation, or choose not to run 
the AC

sometimes?  No.

If I had more free time I'd stand up for the principle but at 
the

moment, islanding will just have to do.  :-)  I suppose I could
try to
summon the reddit but I do still need electricity for now.

-Hal

On Tue, Feb 7, 2017 at 11:31 AM Chuck McCown <ch...@wbmfg.com
<mailto:ch...@wbmfg.com>
<mailto:ch...@wbmfg.com <mailto:ch...@wbmfg.com>>> wrote:

I have 10 kW so it would be an extra $70... that sucks.
Yeah, I would be buying batts and inverters too.

*From:* Harold Bledsoe
*Sent:* Tuesday, February 07, 2017 9:24 AM
    *To:* af@afmug.com <mailto:af@afmug.com>
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Particularly good recent battery 
deals?

When we first did it, we had to pay a $5/mo "administrative"
fee for
having net metering.  Effective Jan 1, they charge an 
additional

$7/kw of installed capacity to offset the lower power usage.

I think this new charge literally effects only 1

Re: [AFMUG] Particularly good recent battery deals?

[Robert]

They cannot "Store Energy" except by the process of not producing it. 
i.e. turning the consumption down of fuel, or water or whatever is 
turning the turbines.   That does NOT cost them anything except the lost 
profit of selling it to you.   The infrastructure is paid for at 
construction.  Ask most developers or someone who doesn't have power 
already plumbed to a location.   Maintenance, yes it calculated into the 
price per KW, and yes there is also fixed fees that you pay as part of 
that.  Reducing your consumption should reduce your part of the 
Maintenance till you get to the fixed fee.   But adding another fee 
because you reduce your consumption is crazy.


On 2/7/17 4:59 PM, Forrest Christian (List Account) wrote:

Here's the problem with net metering as I see it:

Today, the simplistic net metering rules which were enacted basically
require the utility company to take energy from you, "store it" somehow,
and then return it to you at no cost to you.  So the utility company is
stuck with footing the bill for maintaining the line to you and all the
infrastructure needed to fulfill your needs when the sun isn't down.
This just doesn't seem fare, and yes, it drives the cost up for all of
the 'solar have-nots'.

On the other hand, some of the stuff the utility companies are trying to
get away with is also highway robbery.   Buying at wholesale rates from
customers and selling it back to them at retail seems unfair.  Charging
"capacity fees" seems bad as well.   The really irritating thing is the
utilities who are starting to charge a 'solar used on the premises'
charge which basically means if you are using solar to reduce your grid
energy consumption and not selling excess back to the grid, they'll
still charge you for being tied to the grid based on how much capacity
you have.

The quicker that the energy companies figure out that they are not only
energy providers, but that they should be energy storage companies as
well the better.   That way, you could have a 'buy energy from the
energy company' rate, and a 'store energy for me rate'.  And none of
this crap they're trying to pull right now.  If you don't want to have
the utility company store it for you at whatever rate they're charging,
then you go buy a powerwall and then only buy energy from the utility
company when you need a bit here or there (subject to a meter minimum or
similar).

On Tue, Feb 7, 2017 at 4:58 PM, Robert Andrews <i...@avantwireless.com
<mailto:i...@avantwireless.com>> wrote:

What really sucks about this deal is that they claim that they do
this so rich people who can afford solar are still contributing to
the cost of maintaining the grid instead of transferring that burden
to poor people.   Cry me a fkn river...   They kind of neglect that
they are making up more than 20% line loss from solar plants
distributing source power closer to the loads.This is a YUGE
savings off losses that they don't get compensated for and goes
straight into their pockets. Fuel savings, build savings, wear and
tear savings...   They are a bunch of thieves looking in our pockets
for their next golden parachute..

On 02/07/2017 08:55 AM, Harold Bledsoe wrote:

Apologies to Eric for hijacking his thread...

It does suck and the logic is flawed.  Do they charge more for folks
that switched to LED bulbs?  No.  Do they charge more for folks that
have smaller houses, better insulation, or choose not to run the AC
sometimes?  No.

If I had more free time I'd stand up for the principle but at the
moment, islanding will just have to do.  :-)  I suppose I could
try to
summon the reddit but I do still need electricity for now.

-Hal

On Tue, Feb 7, 2017 at 11:31 AM Chuck McCown <ch...@wbmfg.com
<mailto:ch...@wbmfg.com>
<mailto:ch...@wbmfg.com <mailto:ch...@wbmfg.com>>> wrote:

I have 10 kW so it would be an extra $70... that sucks.
Yeah, I would be buying batts and inverters too.

*From:* Harold Bledsoe
*Sent:* Tuesday, February 07, 2017 9:24 AM
*To:* af@afmug.com <mailto:af@afmug.com>
    *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Particularly good recent battery deals?
When we first did it, we had to pay a $5/mo "administrative"
fee for
having net metering.  Effective Jan 1, they charge an additional
$7/kw of installed capacity to offset the lower power usage.

I think this new charge literally effects only 1 of their
customers.  I believe their fear is that things like Tesla
powerwall
will take off and they won't be able to afford their current
lifestyle.  ;-)
On Tue, Feb 7, 2017 at 9:32 AM Chuck McCown <ch...@wbmfg.com
<mailto:ch...@wbmfg.com>

Re: [AFMUG] Particularly good recent battery deals?

[Forrest Christian (List Account)]

Here's the problem with net metering as I see it:

Today, the simplistic net metering rules which were enacted basically
require the utility company to take energy from you, "store it" somehow,
and then return it to you at no cost to you.  So the utility company is
stuck with footing the bill for maintaining the line to you and all the
infrastructure needed to fulfill your needs when the sun isn't down.  This
just doesn't seem fare, and yes, it drives the cost up for all of the
'solar have-nots'.

On the other hand, some of the stuff the utility companies are trying to
get away with is also highway robbery.   Buying at wholesale rates from
customers and selling it back to them at retail seems unfair.  Charging
"capacity fees" seems bad as well.   The really irritating thing is the
utilities who are starting to charge a 'solar used on the premises' charge
which basically means if you are using solar to reduce your grid energy
consumption and not selling excess back to the grid, they'll still charge
you for being tied to the grid based on how much capacity you have.

The quicker that the energy companies figure out that they are not only
energy providers, but that they should be energy storage companies as well
the better.   That way, you could have a 'buy energy from the energy
company' rate, and a 'store energy for me rate'.  And none of this crap
they're trying to pull right now.  If you don't want to have the utility
company store it for you at whatever rate they're charging, then you go buy
a powerwall and then only buy energy from the utility company when you need
a bit here or there (subject to a meter minimum or similar).

On Tue, Feb 7, 2017 at 4:58 PM, Robert Andrews <i...@avantwireless.com>
wrote:

> What really sucks about this deal is that they claim that they do this so
> rich people who can afford solar are still contributing to the cost of
> maintaining the grid instead of transferring that burden to poor people.
>  Cry me a fkn river...   They kind of neglect that they are making up more
> than 20% line loss from solar plants distributing source power closer to
> the loads.This is a YUGE savings off losses that they don't get
> compensated for and goes straight into their pockets. Fuel savings, build
> savings, wear and tear savings...   They are a bunch of thieves looking in
> our pockets for their next golden parachute..
>
> On 02/07/2017 08:55 AM, Harold Bledsoe wrote:
>
>> Apologies to Eric for hijacking his thread...
>>
>> It does suck and the logic is flawed.  Do they charge more for folks
>> that switched to LED bulbs?  No.  Do they charge more for folks that
>> have smaller houses, better insulation, or choose not to run the AC
>> sometimes?  No.
>>
>> If I had more free time I'd stand up for the principle but at the
>> moment, islanding will just have to do.  :-)  I suppose I could try to
>> summon the reddit but I do still need electricity for now.
>>
>> -Hal
>>
>> On Tue, Feb 7, 2017 at 11:31 AM Chuck McCown <ch...@wbmfg.com
>> <mailto:ch...@wbmfg.com>> wrote:
>>
>> I have 10 kW so it would be an extra $70... that sucks.
>> Yeah, I would be buying batts and inverters too.
>>
>> *From:* Harold Bledsoe
>> *Sent:* Tuesday, February 07, 2017 9:24 AM
>> *To:* af@afmug.com
>> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Particularly good recent battery deals?
>> When we first did it, we had to pay a $5/mo "administrative" fee for
>> having net metering.  Effective Jan 1, they charge an additional
>> $7/kw of installed capacity to offset the lower power usage.
>>
>> I think this new charge literally effects only 1 of their
>> customers.  I believe their fear is that things like Tesla powerwall
>> will take off and they won't be able to afford their current
>> lifestyle.  ;-)
>> On Tue, Feb 7, 2017 at 9:32 AM Chuck McCown <ch...@wbmfg.com> wrote:
>>
>> I pay 8.50/month.  Flat rate.
>> So you are getting a demand charge added?
>>
>> *From:* Harold Bledsoe
>> *Sent:* Monday, February 06, 2017 5:37 PM
>> *To:* af@afmug.com
>> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Particularly good recent battery deals?
>>
>> Agreed!
>>
>> I'm going to pull the trigger and try the forklift batteries.
>> Supposedly they will last 3-5x longer than regular deep cycle
>> golf cart batteries. I'll let you guys know in 10-15 years.
>>
>> My motivation is that my home grid tied system saves too much
>> power so the power company added a net meter fee of $7/kw/mo to
>> make up the difference.
>>
>>

Re: [AFMUG] Particularly good recent battery deals?

[Robert Andrews]

What really sucks about this deal is that they claim that they do this 
so rich people who can afford solar are still contributing to the cost 
of maintaining the grid instead of transferring that burden to poor 
people.   Cry me a fkn river...   They kind of neglect that they are 
making up more than 20% line loss from solar plants distributing source 
power closer to the loads.This is a YUGE savings off losses that 
they don't get compensated for and goes straight into their pockets. 
Fuel savings, build savings, wear and tear savings...   They are a bunch 
of thieves looking in our pockets for their next golden parachute..


On 02/07/2017 08:55 AM, Harold Bledsoe wrote:

Apologies to Eric for hijacking his thread...

It does suck and the logic is flawed.  Do they charge more for folks
that switched to LED bulbs?  No.  Do they charge more for folks that
have smaller houses, better insulation, or choose not to run the AC
sometimes?  No.

If I had more free time I'd stand up for the principle but at the
moment, islanding will just have to do.  :-)  I suppose I could try to
summon the reddit but I do still need electricity for now.

-Hal

On Tue, Feb 7, 2017 at 11:31 AM Chuck McCown <ch...@wbmfg.com
<mailto:ch...@wbmfg.com>> wrote:

I have 10 kW so it would be an extra $70... that sucks.
Yeah, I would be buying batts and inverters too.

*From:* Harold Bledsoe
*Sent:* Tuesday, February 07, 2017 9:24 AM
*To:* af@afmug.com
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Particularly good recent battery deals?
When we first did it, we had to pay a $5/mo "administrative" fee for
having net metering.  Effective Jan 1, they charge an additional
$7/kw of installed capacity to offset the lower power usage.

I think this new charge literally effects only 1 of their
customers.  I believe their fear is that things like Tesla powerwall
will take off and they won't be able to afford their current
lifestyle.  ;-)
On Tue, Feb 7, 2017 at 9:32 AM Chuck McCown <ch...@wbmfg.com> wrote:

I pay 8.50/month.  Flat rate.
So you are getting a demand charge added?

*From:* Harold Bledsoe
*Sent:* Monday, February 06, 2017 5:37 PM
*To:* af@afmug.com
    *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Particularly good recent battery deals?
Agreed!

I'm going to pull the trigger and try the forklift batteries.
Supposedly they will last 3-5x longer than regular deep cycle
golf cart batteries. I'll let you guys know in 10-15 years.

My motivation is that my home grid tied system saves too much
power so the power company added a net meter fee of $7/kw/mo to
make up the difference.

Alrighty then, guess I'll take half my house off grid. :-)

Hal

On Mon, Feb 6, 2017 at 1:27 PM Eric Kuhnke
<eric.kuh...@gmail.com> wrote:

Anything rated in CCA (cold cranking amps) is not suitable
for cyclic solar/wind power applications. If the
manufacturer hasn't clearly specified Ah capacity in a table
at 5, 10, 20 hour rates it's not designed for repeated
discharge.


On Mon, Feb 6, 2017 at 5:01 AM, Harold Bledsoe
<hbledso...@gmail.com> wrote:

Beware of deep cycle marine batteries. These typically
are not true deep cycle batteries. At 50% depth of
discharge, you can expect around 300 cycles (or 1 year
if doing it daily). A true deep cycle battery will do
about 3x that number.

On Sun, Feb 5, 2017 at 9:00 PM Keefe John
<keefe...@ethoplex.com> wrote:

Exide has a 105 AH battery for $81


http://www.menards.com/main/electrical/batteries-battery-chargers/automotive-lead-acid-batteries/exide-regng-27-12-month-nautilus-marine-deep-cycle-battery/p-130136307-c-9100.htm?tid=-3310133469912273928


On February 5, 2017 4:55:55 PM CST, Eric Kuhnke
<eric.kuh...@gmail.com> wrote:

Found this, sunelec.com <http://sunelec.com>
(big solar equipment dealer for off grid) is
selling the 106Ah version of these for $185 a
piece plus pallet shipping:


http://www.outbackpower.com/downloads/documents/Store_the_Energy/energycell_re_top_terminal/energycellREtopterminal_specsheet.pdf

Outback, as far as I know, doesn't actually have
a battery factory. But they are a fairly large
company so they are relabeling somebody else's
deep cycle off grid design AGM battery. In terms
of $/Wh stored the only thing that beats it is
the 6V 225Ah wet cell batteries f

Re: [AFMUG] Particularly good recent battery deals?

[Harold Bledsoe]

Oh, yeah FLA.  I was going to just put a vent hood.  :-)

I guess you'll know when you read the news

On Tue, Feb 7, 2017 at 12:37 PM Ken Hohhof <af...@kwisp.com> wrote:

> Those are flooded batteries not AGM, right?  Kind of an apples-to-oranges
> comparison.  If they are in a somewhat temperature controlled environment,
> and not in your basement venting gasses into your house, flooded might be a
> valid choice and would typically be around half the price of AGM.
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] *On Behalf Of *Harold Bledsoe
> *Sent:* Tuesday, February 7, 2017 10:27 AM
>
>
> *To:* af@afmug.com
> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Particularly good recent battery deals?
>
>
>
> Sure.  Supposedly the plates are a good bit thicker than even high-end
> deep cycle batteries so they can be cycled daily at the same DOD 3-5 times
> more than what a GC2 would be able to do.
>
>
>
> Here's an article that has more info:
>
>
>
>
> https://www.sustainablepreparedness.com/index.php/blog/the-best-kept-secret-in-renewable-energy
>
>
>
> -Hal
>
> On Tue, Feb 7, 2017 at 11:14 AM Ken Hohhof <af...@kwisp.com> wrote:
>
> Define “last”.
>
>
>
> *From:* Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] *On Behalf Of *Harold Bledsoe
> *Sent:* Monday, February 6, 2017 6:38 PM
>
>
> *To:* af@afmug.com
> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Particularly good recent battery deals?
>
>
>
> Agreed!
>
>
>
> I'm going to pull the trigger and try the forklift batteries. Supposedly
> they will last 3-5x longer than regular deep cycle golf cart batteries.
> I'll let you guys know in 10-15 years.
>
>
>
> My motivation is that my home grid tied system saves too much power so the
> power company added a net meter fee of $7/kw/mo to make up the difference.
>
>
>
> Alrighty then, guess I'll take half my house off grid. :-)
>
>
>
> Hal
>
>
>
> On Mon, Feb 6, 2017 at 1:27 PM Eric Kuhnke <eric.kuh...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Anything rated in CCA (cold cranking amps) is not suitable for cyclic
> solar/wind power applications. If the manufacturer hasn't clearly specified
> Ah capacity in a table at 5, 10, 20 hour rates it's not designed for
> repeated discharge.
>
>
>
>
>
> On Mon, Feb 6, 2017 at 5:01 AM, Harold Bledsoe <hbledso...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> Beware of deep cycle marine batteries. These typically are not true deep
> cycle batteries. At 50% depth of discharge, you can expect around 300
> cycles (or 1 year if doing it daily). A true deep cycle battery will do
> about 3x that number.
>
> On Sun, Feb 5, 2017 at 9:00 PM Keefe John <keefe...@ethoplex.com> wrote:
>
> Exide has a 105 AH battery for $81
>
>
> http://www.menards.com/main/electrical/batteries-battery-chargers/automotive-lead-acid-batteries/exide-regng-27-12-month-nautilus-marine-deep-cycle-battery/p-130136307-c-9100.htm?tid=-3310133469912273928
>
> On February 5, 2017 4:55:55 PM CST, Eric Kuhnke <eric.kuh...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> Found this, sunelec.com (big solar equipment dealer for off grid) is
> selling the 106Ah version of these for $185 a piece plus pallet shipping:
>
>
> http://www.outbackpower.com/downloads/documents/Store_the_Energy/energycell_re_top_terminal/energycellREtopterminal_specsheet.pdf
>
>
>
> Outback, as far as I know, doesn't actually have a battery factory. But
> they are a fairly large company so they are relabeling somebody else's deep
> cycle off grid design AGM battery. In terms of $/Wh stored the only thing
> that beats it is the 6V 225Ah wet cell batteries from Trojan.
>
>
>
>
>
> On Sat, Feb 4, 2017 at 6:00 AM, Harold Bledsoe <hbledso...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> I can across an interesting tip / option -
>
>
>
> Have you considered going with forklift batteries? They are flooded lead
> acid however I'm reading that they can last 3x longer than golf cart
> batteries in PV applications.
>
>
>
>
> http://gbindustrialbattery.com/Forklift_Battery_Sizes_and_Specifications_Zone15.html
>
>
>
> I guess the weight is a downside. Just make sure the whole family eats
> their Wheaties on moving day. :-)
>
>
>
> Hal
>
> On Thu, Feb 2, 2017 at 7:11 PM Eric Kuhnke <eric.kuh...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Looking for a bunch of 12V 100Ah AGM top terminal batteries for off grid
> PV. Wondering if anyone has recently got a particularly good deal for
> something like the Trojan T31 or similar.
>
>
>
>
>
> --
>
> Harold Bledsoe
>
>
>
>
> --
> Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.
>
> --
>
> Harold Bledsoe
>
> --
>
> Harold Bledsoe
>
>

Re: [AFMUG] Particularly good recent battery deals?

[Chuck McCown]

If you have the recombiner caps on the cells they are safe to vent inside your 
house.  Still best to build a sealed box for them with vents to the outside or 
a hydrogen sensor and fan.

Our local building codes actually specify all of this stuff depending on the 
type of battery and size.  

From: Ken Hohhof 
Sent: Tuesday, February 07, 2017 10:37 AM
To: af@afmug.com 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Particularly good recent battery deals?

Those are flooded batteries not AGM, right?  Kind of an apples-to-oranges 
comparison.  If they are in a somewhat temperature controlled environment, and 
not in your basement venting gasses into your house, flooded might be a valid 
choice and would typically be around half the price of AGM.

 

 

From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Harold Bledsoe
Sent: Tuesday, February 7, 2017 10:27 AM
To: af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Particularly good recent battery deals?

 

Sure.  Supposedly the plates are a good bit thicker than even high-end deep 
cycle batteries so they can be cycled daily at the same DOD 3-5 times more than 
what a GC2 would be able to do.

 

Here's an article that has more info:

 

https://www.sustainablepreparedness.com/index.php/blog/the-best-kept-secret-in-renewable-energy

 

-Hal

On Tue, Feb 7, 2017 at 11:14 AM Ken Hohhof <af...@kwisp.com> wrote:

  Define “last”.

   

  From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Harold Bledsoe
  Sent: Monday, February 6, 2017 6:38 PM


  To: af@afmug.com
  Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Particularly good recent battery deals?

   

  Agreed!

   

  I'm going to pull the trigger and try the forklift batteries. Supposedly they 
will last 3-5x longer than regular deep cycle golf cart batteries. I'll let you 
guys know in 10-15 years.

   

  My motivation is that my home grid tied system saves too much power so the 
power company added a net meter fee of $7/kw/mo to make up the difference.

   

  Alrighty then, guess I'll take half my house off grid. :-)

   

  Hal

   

  On Mon, Feb 6, 2017 at 1:27 PM Eric Kuhnke <eric.kuh...@gmail.com> wrote:

Anything rated in CCA (cold cranking amps) is not suitable for cyclic 
solar/wind power applications. If the manufacturer hasn't clearly specified Ah 
capacity in a table at 5, 10, 20 hour rates it's not designed for repeated 
discharge.

 

 

On Mon, Feb 6, 2017 at 5:01 AM, Harold Bledsoe <hbledso...@gmail.com> wrote:

  Beware of deep cycle marine batteries. These typically are not true deep 
cycle batteries. At 50% depth of discharge, you can expect around 300 cycles 
(or 1 year if doing it daily). A true deep cycle battery will do about 3x that 
number.

  On Sun, Feb 5, 2017 at 9:00 PM Keefe John <keefe...@ethoplex.com> wrote:

Exide has a 105 AH battery for $81


http://www.menards.com/main/electrical/batteries-battery-chargers/automotive-lead-acid-batteries/exide-regng-27-12-month-nautilus-marine-deep-cycle-battery/p-130136307-c-9100.htm?tid=-3310133469912273928

On February 5, 2017 4:55:55 PM CST, Eric Kuhnke <eric.kuh...@gmail.com> 
wrote:

  Found this, sunelec.com (big solar equipment dealer for off grid) is 
selling the 106Ah version of these for $185 a piece plus pallet shipping:

  
http://www.outbackpower.com/downloads/documents/Store_the_Energy/energycell_re_top_terminal/energycellREtopterminal_specsheet.pdf

   

  Outback, as far as I know, doesn't actually have a battery factory. 
But they are a fairly large company so they are relabeling somebody else's deep 
cycle off grid design AGM battery. In terms of $/Wh stored the only thing that 
beats it is the 6V 225Ah wet cell batteries from Trojan.

   

   

  On Sat, Feb 4, 2017 at 6:00 AM, Harold Bledsoe <hbledso...@gmail.com> 
wrote:

I can across an interesting tip / option -

 

Have you considered going with forklift batteries? They are flooded 
lead acid however I'm reading that they can last 3x longer than golf cart 
batteries in PV applications.

 


http://gbindustrialbattery.com/Forklift_Battery_Sizes_and_Specifications_Zone15.html

 

I guess the weight is a downside. Just make sure the whole family 
eats their Wheaties on moving day. :-)

 

Hal

On Thu, Feb 2, 2017 at 7:11 PM Eric Kuhnke <eric.kuh...@gmail.com> 
wrote:

  Looking for a bunch of 12V 100Ah AGM top terminal batteries for 
off grid PV. Wondering if anyone has recently got a particularly good deal for 
something like the Trojan T31 or similar.

   

   

-- 

Harold Bledsoe

   


-- 
Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.

  -- 

  Harold Bledsoe

  -- 

  Harold Bledsoe

Re: [AFMUG] Particularly good recent battery deals?

[Ken Hohhof]

Those are flooded batteries not AGM, right?  Kind of an apples-to-oranges 
comparison.  If they are in a somewhat temperature controlled environment, and 
not in your basement venting gasses into your house, flooded might be a valid 
choice and would typically be around half the price of AGM.

 

 

From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Harold Bledsoe
Sent: Tuesday, February 7, 2017 10:27 AM
To: af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Particularly good recent battery deals?

 

Sure.  Supposedly the plates are a good bit thicker than even high-end deep 
cycle batteries so they can be cycled daily at the same DOD 3-5 times more than 
what a GC2 would be able to do.

 

Here's an article that has more info:

 

https://www.sustainablepreparedness.com/index.php/blog/the-best-kept-secret-in-renewable-energy

 

-Hal

On Tue, Feb 7, 2017 at 11:14 AM Ken Hohhof <af...@kwisp.com 
<mailto:af...@kwisp.com> > wrote:

Define “last”.

 

From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com <mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com> ] On Behalf 
Of Harold Bledsoe
Sent: Monday, February 6, 2017 6:38 PM


To: af@afmug.com <mailto:af@afmug.com> 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Particularly good recent battery deals?

 

Agreed!

 

I'm going to pull the trigger and try the forklift batteries. Supposedly they 
will last 3-5x longer than regular deep cycle golf cart batteries. I'll let you 
guys know in 10-15 years.

 

My motivation is that my home grid tied system saves too much power so the 
power company added a net meter fee of $7/kw/mo to make up the difference.

 

Alrighty then, guess I'll take half my house off grid. :-)

 

Hal

 

On Mon, Feb 6, 2017 at 1:27 PM Eric Kuhnke <eric.kuh...@gmail.com 
<mailto:eric.kuh...@gmail.com> > wrote:

Anything rated in CCA (cold cranking amps) is not suitable for cyclic 
solar/wind power applications. If the manufacturer hasn't clearly specified Ah 
capacity in a table at 5, 10, 20 hour rates it's not designed for repeated 
discharge.

 

 

On Mon, Feb 6, 2017 at 5:01 AM, Harold Bledsoe <hbledso...@gmail.com 
<mailto:hbledso...@gmail.com> > wrote:

Beware of deep cycle marine batteries. These typically are not true deep cycle 
batteries. At 50% depth of discharge, you can expect around 300 cycles (or 1 
year if doing it daily). A true deep cycle battery will do about 3x that number.

On Sun, Feb 5, 2017 at 9:00 PM Keefe John <keefe...@ethoplex.com 
<mailto:keefe...@ethoplex.com> > wrote:

Exide has a 105 AH battery for $81

http://www.menards.com/main/electrical/batteries-battery-chargers/automotive-lead-acid-batteries/exide-regng-27-12-month-nautilus-marine-deep-cycle-battery/p-130136307-c-9100.htm?tid=-3310133469912273928

On February 5, 2017 4:55:55 PM CST, Eric Kuhnke <eric.kuh...@gmail.com 
<mailto:eric.kuh...@gmail.com> > wrote:

Found this, sunelec.com <http://sunelec.com>  (big solar equipment dealer for 
off grid) is selling the 106Ah version of these for $185 a piece plus pallet 
shipping:

http://www.outbackpower.com/downloads/documents/Store_the_Energy/energycell_re_top_terminal/energycellREtopterminal_specsheet.pdf

 

Outback, as far as I know, doesn't actually have a battery factory. But they 
are a fairly large company so they are relabeling somebody else's deep cycle 
off grid design AGM battery. In terms of $/Wh stored the only thing that beats 
it is the 6V 225Ah wet cell batteries from Trojan.

 

 

On Sat, Feb 4, 2017 at 6:00 AM, Harold Bledsoe <hbledso...@gmail.com 
<mailto:hbledso...@gmail.com> > wrote:

I can across an interesting tip / option -

 

Have you considered going with forklift batteries? They are flooded lead acid 
however I'm reading that they can last 3x longer than golf cart batteries in PV 
applications.

 

http://gbindustrialbattery.com/Forklift_Battery_Sizes_and_Specifications_Zone15.html

 

I guess the weight is a downside. Just make sure the whole family eats their 
Wheaties on moving day. :-)

 

Hal

On Thu, Feb 2, 2017 at 7:11 PM Eric Kuhnke <eric.kuh...@gmail.com 
<mailto:eric.kuh...@gmail.com> > wrote:

Looking for a bunch of 12V 100Ah AGM top terminal batteries for off grid PV. 
Wondering if anyone has recently got a particularly good deal for something 
like the Trojan T31 or similar.

 

 

-- 

Harold Bledsoe

 


-- 
Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.

-- 

Harold Bledsoe

-- 

Harold Bledsoe

Re: [AFMUG] Particularly good recent battery deals?

[Chuck McCown]

I wonder if you couple a small sine wave inverter and a grid tie inverter, you 
can fake out the grid tie inverter to be off grid?  Those are the cheapest per 
watt inverters if you can get them to run that way.  

From: Harold Bledsoe 
Sent: Tuesday, February 07, 2017 9:55 AM
To: af@afmug.com 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Particularly good recent battery deals?

Apologies to Eric for hijacking his thread... 

It does suck and the logic is flawed.  Do they charge more for folks that 
switched to LED bulbs?  No.  Do they charge more for folks that have smaller 
houses, better insulation, or choose not to run the AC sometimes?  No.

If I had more free time I'd stand up for the principle but at the moment, 
islanding will just have to do.  :-)  I suppose I could try to summon the 
reddit but I do still need electricity for now.

-Hal

On Tue, Feb 7, 2017 at 11:31 AM Chuck McCown <ch...@wbmfg.com> wrote:

  I have 10 kW so it would be an extra $70... that sucks.  
  Yeah, I would be buying batts and inverters too.  

  From: Harold Bledsoe 
  Sent: Tuesday, February 07, 2017 9:24 AM
  To: af@afmug.com 
  Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Particularly good recent battery deals?
  When we first did it, we had to pay a $5/mo "administrative" fee for having 
net metering.  Effective Jan 1, they charge an additional $7/kw of installed 
capacity to offset the lower power usage. 

  I think this new charge literally effects only 1 of their customers.  I 
believe their fear is that things like Tesla powerwall will take off and they 
won't be able to afford their current lifestyle.  ;-)
  On Tue, Feb 7, 2017 at 9:32 AM Chuck McCown <ch...@wbmfg.com> wrote:

I pay 8.50/month.  Flat rate.  
So you are getting a demand charge added?

From: Harold Bledsoe 
Sent: Monday, February 06, 2017 5:37 PM
To: af@afmug.com 
    Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Particularly good recent battery deals?
Agreed!

I'm going to pull the trigger and try the forklift batteries. Supposedly 
they will last 3-5x longer than regular deep cycle golf cart batteries. I'll 
let you guys know in 10-15 years.

My motivation is that my home grid tied system saves too much power so the 
power company added a net meter fee of $7/kw/mo to make up the difference.

Alrighty then, guess I'll take half my house off grid. :-)

Hal

On Mon, Feb 6, 2017 at 1:27 PM Eric Kuhnke <eric.kuh...@gmail.com> wrote:

  Anything rated in CCA (cold cranking amps) is not suitable for cyclic 
solar/wind power applications. If the manufacturer hasn't clearly specified Ah 
capacity in a table at 5, 10, 20 hour rates it's not designed for repeated 
discharge. 


  On Mon, Feb 6, 2017 at 5:01 AM, Harold Bledsoe <hbledso...@gmail.com> 
wrote:

Beware of deep cycle marine batteries. These typically are not true 
deep cycle batteries. At 50% depth of discharge, you can expect around 300 
cycles (or 1 year if doing it daily). A true deep cycle battery will do about 
3x that number.
On Sun, Feb 5, 2017 at 9:00 PM Keefe John <keefe...@ethoplex.com> wrote:

  Exide has a 105 AH battery for $81

  
http://www.menards.com/main/electrical/batteries-battery-chargers/automotive-lead-acid-batteries/exide-regng-27-12-month-nautilus-marine-deep-cycle-battery/p-130136307-c-9100.htm?tid=-3310133469912273928



  On February 5, 2017 4:55:55 PM CST, Eric Kuhnke 
<eric.kuh...@gmail.com> wrote:
Found this, sunelec.com (big solar equipment dealer for off grid) 
is selling the 106Ah version of these for $185 a piece plus pallet shipping:



http://www.outbackpower.com/downloads/documents/Store_the_Energy/energycell_re_top_terminal/energycellREtopterminal_specsheet.pdf


Outback, as far as I know, doesn't actually have a battery factory. 
But they are a fairly large company so they are relabeling somebody else's deep 
cycle off grid design AGM battery. In terms of $/Wh stored the only thing that 
beats it is the 6V 225Ah wet cell batteries from Trojan.


On Sat, Feb 4, 2017 at 6:00 AM, Harold Bledsoe 
<hbledso...@gmail.com> wrote:

  I can across an interesting tip / option -

  Have you considered going with forklift batteries? They are 
flooded lead acid however I'm reading that they can last 3x longer than golf 
cart batteries in PV applications.

  
http://gbindustrialbattery.com/Forklift_Battery_Sizes_and_Specifications_Zone15.html

  I guess the weight is a downside. Just make sure the whole family 
eats their Wheaties on moving day. :-)

  Hal
  On Thu, Feb 2, 2017 at 7:11 PM Eric Kuhnke 
<eric.kuh...@gmail.com> wrote:

Looking for a bunch of 12V 100Ah AGM top terminal batteries for 
off grid PV. Wondering if anyone has recently got a particularly good deal for 
something like the Trojan T31 or similar. 


  -- 

  Haro

Re: [AFMUG] Particularly good recent battery deals?

[Harold Bledsoe]

Apologies to Eric for hijacking his thread...

It does suck and the logic is flawed.  Do they charge more for folks that
switched to LED bulbs?  No.  Do they charge more for folks that have
smaller houses, better insulation, or choose not to run the AC sometimes?
No.

If I had more free time I'd stand up for the principle but at the moment,
islanding will just have to do.  :-)  I suppose I could try to summon the
reddit but I do still need electricity for now.

-Hal

On Tue, Feb 7, 2017 at 11:31 AM Chuck McCown <ch...@wbmfg.com> wrote:

> I have 10 kW so it would be an extra $70... that sucks.
> Yeah, I would be buying batts and inverters too.
>
> *From:* Harold Bledsoe
> *Sent:* Tuesday, February 07, 2017 9:24 AM
> *To:* af@afmug.com
> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Particularly good recent battery deals?
> When we first did it, we had to pay a $5/mo "administrative" fee for
> having net metering.  Effective Jan 1, they charge an additional $7/kw of
> installed capacity to offset the lower power usage.
>
> I think this new charge literally effects only 1 of their customers.  I
> believe their fear is that things like Tesla powerwall will take off and
> they won't be able to afford their current lifestyle.  ;-)
> On Tue, Feb 7, 2017 at 9:32 AM Chuck McCown <ch...@wbmfg.com> wrote:
>
> I pay 8.50/month.  Flat rate.
> So you are getting a demand charge added?
>
> *From:* Harold Bledsoe
> *Sent:* Monday, February 06, 2017 5:37 PM
> *To:* af@afmug.com
> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Particularly good recent battery deals?
> Agreed!
>
> I'm going to pull the trigger and try the forklift batteries. Supposedly
> they will last 3-5x longer than regular deep cycle golf cart batteries.
> I'll let you guys know in 10-15 years.
>
> My motivation is that my home grid tied system saves too much power so the
> power company added a net meter fee of $7/kw/mo to make up the difference.
>
> Alrighty then, guess I'll take half my house off grid. :-)
>
> Hal
>
> On Mon, Feb 6, 2017 at 1:27 PM Eric Kuhnke <eric.kuh...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Anything rated in CCA (cold cranking amps) is not suitable for cyclic
> solar/wind power applications. If the manufacturer hasn't clearly specified
> Ah capacity in a table at 5, 10, 20 hour rates it's not designed for
> repeated discharge.
>
>
> On Mon, Feb 6, 2017 at 5:01 AM, Harold Bledsoe <hbledso...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> Beware of deep cycle marine batteries. These typically are not true deep
> cycle batteries. At 50% depth of discharge, you can expect around 300
> cycles (or 1 year if doing it daily). A true deep cycle battery will do
> about 3x that number.
>
> On Sun, Feb 5, 2017 at 9:00 PM Keefe John <keefe...@ethoplex.com> wrote:
>
> Exide has a 105 AH battery for $81
>
>
> http://www.menards.com/main/electrical/batteries-battery-chargers/automotive-lead-acid-batteries/exide-regng-27-12-month-nautilus-marine-deep-cycle-battery/p-130136307-c-9100.htm?tid=-3310133469912273928
>
>
> On February 5, 2017 4:55:55 PM CST, Eric Kuhnke <eric.kuh...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> Found this, sunelec.com (big solar equipment dealer for off grid) is
> selling the 106Ah version of these for $185 a piece plus pallet shipping:
>
>
> http://www.outbackpower.com/downloads/documents/Store_the_Energy/energycell_re_top_terminal/energycellREtopterminal_specsheet.pdf
>
> Outback, as far as I know, doesn't actually have a battery factory. But
> they are a fairly large company so they are relabeling somebody else's deep
> cycle off grid design AGM battery. In terms of $/Wh stored the only thing
> that beats it is the 6V 225Ah wet cell batteries from Trojan.
>
>
>
> On Sat, Feb 4, 2017 at 6:00 AM, Harold Bledsoe <hbledso...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> I can across an interesting tip / option -
>
> Have you considered going with forklift batteries? They are flooded lead
> acid however I'm reading that they can last 3x longer than golf cart
> batteries in PV applications.
>
>
> http://gbindustrialbattery.com/Forklift_Battery_Sizes_and_Specifications_Zone15.html
>
> I guess the weight is a downside. Just make sure the whole family eats
> their Wheaties on moving day. :-)
>
> Hal
>
> On Thu, Feb 2, 2017 at 7:11 PM Eric Kuhnke <eric.kuh...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Looking for a bunch of 12V 100Ah AGM top terminal batteries for off grid
> PV. Wondering if anyone has recently got a particularly good deal for
> something like the Trojan T31 or similar.
>
>
>
> --
>
> Harold Bledsoe
>
>
>
>
> --
> Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.
>
> --
>
> Harold Bledsoe
>
> --
>
> Harold Bledsoe
>
>

Re: [AFMUG] Particularly good recent battery deals?

[Chuck McCown]

I have 10 kW so it would be an extra $70... that sucks.  
Yeah, I would be buying batts and inverters too.  

From: Harold Bledsoe 
Sent: Tuesday, February 07, 2017 9:24 AM
To: af@afmug.com 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Particularly good recent battery deals?

When we first did it, we had to pay a $5/mo "administrative" fee for having net 
metering.  Effective Jan 1, they charge an additional $7/kw of installed 
capacity to offset the lower power usage. 

I think this new charge literally effects only 1 of their customers.  I believe 
their fear is that things like Tesla powerwall will take off and they won't be 
able to afford their current lifestyle.  ;-)

On Tue, Feb 7, 2017 at 9:32 AM Chuck McCown <ch...@wbmfg.com> wrote:

  I pay 8.50/month.  Flat rate.  
  So you are getting a demand charge added?

  From: Harold Bledsoe 
  Sent: Monday, February 06, 2017 5:37 PM
  To: af@afmug.com 
  Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Particularly good recent battery deals?
  Agreed!

  I'm going to pull the trigger and try the forklift batteries. Supposedly they 
will last 3-5x longer than regular deep cycle golf cart batteries. I'll let you 
guys know in 10-15 years.

  My motivation is that my home grid tied system saves too much power so the 
power company added a net meter fee of $7/kw/mo to make up the difference.

  Alrighty then, guess I'll take half my house off grid. :-)

  Hal

  On Mon, Feb 6, 2017 at 1:27 PM Eric Kuhnke <eric.kuh...@gmail.com> wrote:

Anything rated in CCA (cold cranking amps) is not suitable for cyclic 
solar/wind power applications. If the manufacturer hasn't clearly specified Ah 
capacity in a table at 5, 10, 20 hour rates it's not designed for repeated 
discharge. 


On Mon, Feb 6, 2017 at 5:01 AM, Harold Bledsoe <hbledso...@gmail.com> wrote:

  Beware of deep cycle marine batteries. These typically are not true deep 
cycle batteries. At 50% depth of discharge, you can expect around 300 cycles 
(or 1 year if doing it daily). A true deep cycle battery will do about 3x that 
number.
  On Sun, Feb 5, 2017 at 9:00 PM Keefe John <keefe...@ethoplex.com> wrote:

Exide has a 105 AH battery for $81


http://www.menards.com/main/electrical/batteries-battery-chargers/automotive-lead-acid-batteries/exide-regng-27-12-month-nautilus-marine-deep-cycle-battery/p-130136307-c-9100.htm?tid=-3310133469912273928



On February 5, 2017 4:55:55 PM CST, Eric Kuhnke <eric.kuh...@gmail.com> 
wrote:
  Found this, sunelec.com (big solar equipment dealer for off grid) is 
selling the 106Ah version of these for $185 a piece plus pallet shipping:


  
http://www.outbackpower.com/downloads/documents/Store_the_Energy/energycell_re_top_terminal/energycellREtopterminal_specsheet.pdf


  Outback, as far as I know, doesn't actually have a battery factory. 
But they are a fairly large company so they are relabeling somebody else's deep 
cycle off grid design AGM battery. In terms of $/Wh stored the only thing that 
beats it is the 6V 225Ah wet cell batteries from Trojan.


  On Sat, Feb 4, 2017 at 6:00 AM, Harold Bledsoe <hbledso...@gmail.com> 
wrote:

I can across an interesting tip / option -

Have you considered going with forklift batteries? They are flooded 
lead acid however I'm reading that they can last 3x longer than golf cart 
batteries in PV applications.


http://gbindustrialbattery.com/Forklift_Battery_Sizes_and_Specifications_Zone15.html

I guess the weight is a downside. Just make sure the whole family 
eats their Wheaties on moving day. :-)

Hal
On Thu, Feb 2, 2017 at 7:11 PM Eric Kuhnke <eric.kuh...@gmail.com> 
wrote:

  Looking for a bunch of 12V 100Ah AGM top terminal batteries for 
off grid PV. Wondering if anyone has recently got a particularly good deal for 
something like the Trojan T31 or similar. 


-- 

Harold Bledsoe



-- 
Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.
  -- 

  Harold Bledsoe

  -- 

  Harold Bledsoe

Re: [AFMUG] Particularly good recent battery deals?

[Harold Bledsoe]

Sure.  Supposedly the plates are a good bit thicker than even high-end deep
cycle batteries so they can be cycled daily at the same DOD 3-5 times more
than what a GC2 would be able to do.

Here's an article that has more info:

https://www.sustainablepreparedness.com/index.php/blog/the-best-kept-secret-in-renewable-energy

-Hal

On Tue, Feb 7, 2017 at 11:14 AM Ken Hohhof <af...@kwisp.com> wrote:

> Define “last”.
>
>
>
> *From:* Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] *On Behalf Of *Harold Bledsoe
> *Sent:* Monday, February 6, 2017 6:38 PM
>
>
> *To:* af@afmug.com
> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Particularly good recent battery deals?
>
>
>
> Agreed!
>
>
>
> I'm going to pull the trigger and try the forklift batteries. Supposedly
> they will last 3-5x longer than regular deep cycle golf cart batteries.
> I'll let you guys know in 10-15 years.
>
>
>
> My motivation is that my home grid tied system saves too much power so the
> power company added a net meter fee of $7/kw/mo to make up the difference.
>
>
>
> Alrighty then, guess I'll take half my house off grid. :-)
>
>
>
> Hal
>
>
>
> On Mon, Feb 6, 2017 at 1:27 PM Eric Kuhnke <eric.kuh...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Anything rated in CCA (cold cranking amps) is not suitable for cyclic
> solar/wind power applications. If the manufacturer hasn't clearly specified
> Ah capacity in a table at 5, 10, 20 hour rates it's not designed for
> repeated discharge.
>
>
>
>
>
> On Mon, Feb 6, 2017 at 5:01 AM, Harold Bledsoe <hbledso...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> Beware of deep cycle marine batteries. These typically are not true deep
> cycle batteries. At 50% depth of discharge, you can expect around 300
> cycles (or 1 year if doing it daily). A true deep cycle battery will do
> about 3x that number.
>
> On Sun, Feb 5, 2017 at 9:00 PM Keefe John <keefe...@ethoplex.com> wrote:
>
> Exide has a 105 AH battery for $81
>
>
> http://www.menards.com/main/electrical/batteries-battery-chargers/automotive-lead-acid-batteries/exide-regng-27-12-month-nautilus-marine-deep-cycle-battery/p-130136307-c-9100.htm?tid=-3310133469912273928
>
> On February 5, 2017 4:55:55 PM CST, Eric Kuhnke <eric.kuh...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> Found this, sunelec.com (big solar equipment dealer for off grid) is
> selling the 106Ah version of these for $185 a piece plus pallet shipping:
>
>
> http://www.outbackpower.com/downloads/documents/Store_the_Energy/energycell_re_top_terminal/energycellREtopterminal_specsheet.pdf
>
>
>
> Outback, as far as I know, doesn't actually have a battery factory. But
> they are a fairly large company so they are relabeling somebody else's deep
> cycle off grid design AGM battery. In terms of $/Wh stored the only thing
> that beats it is the 6V 225Ah wet cell batteries from Trojan.
>
>
>
>
>
> On Sat, Feb 4, 2017 at 6:00 AM, Harold Bledsoe <hbledso...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> I can across an interesting tip / option -
>
>
>
> Have you considered going with forklift batteries? They are flooded lead
> acid however I'm reading that they can last 3x longer than golf cart
> batteries in PV applications.
>
>
>
>
> http://gbindustrialbattery.com/Forklift_Battery_Sizes_and_Specifications_Zone15.html
>
>
>
> I guess the weight is a downside. Just make sure the whole family eats
> their Wheaties on moving day. :-)
>
>
>
> Hal
>
> On Thu, Feb 2, 2017 at 7:11 PM Eric Kuhnke <eric.kuh...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Looking for a bunch of 12V 100Ah AGM top terminal batteries for off grid
> PV. Wondering if anyone has recently got a particularly good deal for
> something like the Trojan T31 or similar.
>
>
>
>
>
> --
>
> Harold Bledsoe
>
>
>
>
> --
> Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.
>
> --
>
> Harold Bledsoe
>
> --
>
> Harold Bledsoe
>

Re: [AFMUG] Particularly good recent battery deals?

[Harold Bledsoe]

When we first did it, we had to pay a $5/mo "administrative" fee for having
net metering.  Effective Jan 1, they charge an additional $7/kw of
installed capacity to offset the lower power usage.

I think this new charge literally effects only 1 of their customers.  I
believe their fear is that things like Tesla powerwall will take off and
they won't be able to afford their current lifestyle.  ;-)

On Tue, Feb 7, 2017 at 9:32 AM Chuck McCown <ch...@wbmfg.com> wrote:

> I pay 8.50/month.  Flat rate.
> So you are getting a demand charge added?
>
> *From:* Harold Bledsoe
> *Sent:* Monday, February 06, 2017 5:37 PM
> *To:* af@afmug.com
> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Particularly good recent battery deals?
> Agreed!
>
> I'm going to pull the trigger and try the forklift batteries. Supposedly
> they will last 3-5x longer than regular deep cycle golf cart batteries.
> I'll let you guys know in 10-15 years.
>
> My motivation is that my home grid tied system saves too much power so the
> power company added a net meter fee of $7/kw/mo to make up the difference.
>
> Alrighty then, guess I'll take half my house off grid. :-)
>
> Hal
>
> On Mon, Feb 6, 2017 at 1:27 PM Eric Kuhnke <eric.kuh...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Anything rated in CCA (cold cranking amps) is not suitable for cyclic
> solar/wind power applications. If the manufacturer hasn't clearly specified
> Ah capacity in a table at 5, 10, 20 hour rates it's not designed for
> repeated discharge.
>
>
> On Mon, Feb 6, 2017 at 5:01 AM, Harold Bledsoe <hbledso...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> Beware of deep cycle marine batteries. These typically are not true deep
> cycle batteries. At 50% depth of discharge, you can expect around 300
> cycles (or 1 year if doing it daily). A true deep cycle battery will do
> about 3x that number.
>
> On Sun, Feb 5, 2017 at 9:00 PM Keefe John <keefe...@ethoplex.com> wrote:
>
> Exide has a 105 AH battery for $81
>
>
> http://www.menards.com/main/electrical/batteries-battery-chargers/automotive-lead-acid-batteries/exide-regng-27-12-month-nautilus-marine-deep-cycle-battery/p-130136307-c-9100.htm?tid=-3310133469912273928
>
>
> On February 5, 2017 4:55:55 PM CST, Eric Kuhnke <eric.kuh...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> Found this, sunelec.com (big solar equipment dealer for off grid) is
> selling the 106Ah version of these for $185 a piece plus pallet shipping:
>
>
> http://www.outbackpower.com/downloads/documents/Store_the_Energy/energycell_re_top_terminal/energycellREtopterminal_specsheet.pdf
>
> Outback, as far as I know, doesn't actually have a battery factory. But
> they are a fairly large company so they are relabeling somebody else's deep
> cycle off grid design AGM battery. In terms of $/Wh stored the only thing
> that beats it is the 6V 225Ah wet cell batteries from Trojan.
>
>
>
> On Sat, Feb 4, 2017 at 6:00 AM, Harold Bledsoe <hbledso...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> I can across an interesting tip / option -
>
> Have you considered going with forklift batteries? They are flooded lead
> acid however I'm reading that they can last 3x longer than golf cart
> batteries in PV applications.
>
>
> http://gbindustrialbattery.com/Forklift_Battery_Sizes_and_Specifications_Zone15.html
>
> I guess the weight is a downside. Just make sure the whole family eats
> their Wheaties on moving day. :-)
>
> Hal
>
> On Thu, Feb 2, 2017 at 7:11 PM Eric Kuhnke <eric.kuh...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Looking for a bunch of 12V 100Ah AGM top terminal batteries for off grid
> PV. Wondering if anyone has recently got a particularly good deal for
> something like the Trojan T31 or similar.
>
>
>
> --
>
> Harold Bledsoe
>
>
>
>
> --
> Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.
>
> --
>
> Harold Bledsoe
>
> --
>
> Harold Bledsoe
>

Re: [AFMUG] Particularly good recent battery deals?

[Ken Hohhof]

Define “last”.

 

From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Harold Bledsoe
Sent: Monday, February 6, 2017 6:38 PM
To: af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Particularly good recent battery deals?

 

Agreed!

 

I'm going to pull the trigger and try the forklift batteries. Supposedly they 
will last 3-5x longer than regular deep cycle golf cart batteries. I'll let you 
guys know in 10-15 years.

 

My motivation is that my home grid tied system saves too much power so the 
power company added a net meter fee of $7/kw/mo to make up the difference.

 

Alrighty then, guess I'll take half my house off grid. :-)

 

Hal

 

On Mon, Feb 6, 2017 at 1:27 PM Eric Kuhnke <eric.kuh...@gmail.com 
<mailto:eric.kuh...@gmail.com> > wrote:

Anything rated in CCA (cold cranking amps) is not suitable for cyclic 
solar/wind power applications. If the manufacturer hasn't clearly specified Ah 
capacity in a table at 5, 10, 20 hour rates it's not designed for repeated 
discharge.

 

 

On Mon, Feb 6, 2017 at 5:01 AM, Harold Bledsoe <hbledso...@gmail.com 
<mailto:hbledso...@gmail.com> > wrote:

Beware of deep cycle marine batteries. These typically are not true deep cycle 
batteries. At 50% depth of discharge, you can expect around 300 cycles (or 1 
year if doing it daily). A true deep cycle battery will do about 3x that number.

On Sun, Feb 5, 2017 at 9:00 PM Keefe John <keefe...@ethoplex.com 
<mailto:keefe...@ethoplex.com> > wrote:

Exide has a 105 AH battery for $81

http://www.menards.com/main/electrical/batteries-battery-chargers/automotive-lead-acid-batteries/exide-regng-27-12-month-nautilus-marine-deep-cycle-battery/p-130136307-c-9100.htm?tid=-3310133469912273928



On February 5, 2017 4:55:55 PM CST, Eric Kuhnke <eric.kuh...@gmail.com 
<mailto:eric.kuh...@gmail.com> > wrote:

Found this, sunelec.com <http://sunelec.com>  (big solar equipment dealer for 
off grid) is selling the 106Ah version of these for $185 a piece plus pallet 
shipping:

http://www.outbackpower.com/downloads/documents/Store_the_Energy/energycell_re_top_terminal/energycellREtopterminal_specsheet.pdf

 

Outback, as far as I know, doesn't actually have a battery factory. But they 
are a fairly large company so they are relabeling somebody else's deep cycle 
off grid design AGM battery. In terms of $/Wh stored the only thing that beats 
it is the 6V 225Ah wet cell batteries from Trojan.

 

 

On Sat, Feb 4, 2017 at 6:00 AM, Harold Bledsoe <hbledso...@gmail.com 
<mailto:hbledso...@gmail.com> > wrote:

I can across an interesting tip / option -

 

Have you considered going with forklift batteries? They are flooded lead acid 
however I'm reading that they can last 3x longer than golf cart batteries in PV 
applications.

 

http://gbindustrialbattery.com/Forklift_Battery_Sizes_and_Specifications_Zone15.html

 

I guess the weight is a downside. Just make sure the whole family eats their 
Wheaties on moving day. :-)

 

Hal

On Thu, Feb 2, 2017 at 7:11 PM Eric Kuhnke <eric.kuh...@gmail.com 
<mailto:eric.kuh...@gmail.com> > wrote:

Looking for a bunch of 12V 100Ah AGM top terminal batteries for off grid PV. 
Wondering if anyone has recently got a particularly good deal for something 
like the Trojan T31 or similar.

 

 

-- 

Harold Bledsoe

 


-- 
Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.

-- 

Harold Bledsoe

-- 

Harold Bledsoe

Re: [AFMUG] Particularly good recent battery deals?

[Chuck McCown]

I pay 8.50/month.  Flat rate.  
So you are getting a demand charge added?

From: Harold Bledsoe 
Sent: Monday, February 06, 2017 5:37 PM
To: af@afmug.com 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Particularly good recent battery deals?

Agreed!

I'm going to pull the trigger and try the forklift batteries. Supposedly they 
will last 3-5x longer than regular deep cycle golf cart batteries. I'll let you 
guys know in 10-15 years.

My motivation is that my home grid tied system saves too much power so the 
power company added a net meter fee of $7/kw/mo to make up the difference.

Alrighty then, guess I'll take half my house off grid. :-)

Hal

On Mon, Feb 6, 2017 at 1:27 PM Eric Kuhnke <eric.kuh...@gmail.com> wrote:

  Anything rated in CCA (cold cranking amps) is not suitable for cyclic 
solar/wind power applications. If the manufacturer hasn't clearly specified Ah 
capacity in a table at 5, 10, 20 hour rates it's not designed for repeated 
discharge. 


  On Mon, Feb 6, 2017 at 5:01 AM, Harold Bledsoe <hbledso...@gmail.com> wrote:

Beware of deep cycle marine batteries. These typically are not true deep 
cycle batteries. At 50% depth of discharge, you can expect around 300 cycles 
(or 1 year if doing it daily). A true deep cycle battery will do about 3x that 
number.
On Sun, Feb 5, 2017 at 9:00 PM Keefe John <keefe...@ethoplex.com> wrote:

  Exide has a 105 AH battery for $81

  
http://www.menards.com/main/electrical/batteries-battery-chargers/automotive-lead-acid-batteries/exide-regng-27-12-month-nautilus-marine-deep-cycle-battery/p-130136307-c-9100.htm?tid=-3310133469912273928



  On February 5, 2017 4:55:55 PM CST, Eric Kuhnke <eric.kuh...@gmail.com> 
wrote:
Found this, sunelec.com (big solar equipment dealer for off grid) is 
selling the 106Ah version of these for $185 a piece plus pallet shipping:



http://www.outbackpower.com/downloads/documents/Store_the_Energy/energycell_re_top_terminal/energycellREtopterminal_specsheet.pdf


Outback, as far as I know, doesn't actually have a battery factory. But 
they are a fairly large company so they are relabeling somebody else's deep 
cycle off grid design AGM battery. In terms of $/Wh stored the only thing that 
beats it is the 6V 225Ah wet cell batteries from Trojan.


On Sat, Feb 4, 2017 at 6:00 AM, Harold Bledsoe <hbledso...@gmail.com> 
wrote:

  I can across an interesting tip / option -

  Have you considered going with forklift batteries? They are flooded 
lead acid however I'm reading that they can last 3x longer than golf cart 
batteries in PV applications.

  
http://gbindustrialbattery.com/Forklift_Battery_Sizes_and_Specifications_Zone15.html

  I guess the weight is a downside. Just make sure the whole family 
eats their Wheaties on moving day. :-)

  Hal
  On Thu, Feb 2, 2017 at 7:11 PM Eric Kuhnke <eric.kuh...@gmail.com> 
wrote:

Looking for a bunch of 12V 100Ah AGM top terminal batteries for off 
grid PV. Wondering if anyone has recently got a particularly good deal for 
something like the Trojan T31 or similar. 


  -- 

  Harold Bledsoe



  -- 
  Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.
-- 

Harold Bledsoe

-- 

Harold Bledsoe

Re: [AFMUG] Particularly good recent battery deals?

[Harold Bledsoe]

Agreed!

I'm going to pull the trigger and try the forklift batteries. Supposedly
they will last 3-5x longer than regular deep cycle golf cart batteries.
I'll let you guys know in 10-15 years.

My motivation is that my home grid tied system saves too much power so the
power company added a net meter fee of $7/kw/mo to make up the difference.

Alrighty then, guess I'll take half my house off grid. :-)

Hal

On Mon, Feb 6, 2017 at 1:27 PM Eric Kuhnke  wrote:

> Anything rated in CCA (cold cranking amps) is not suitable for cyclic
> solar/wind power applications. If the manufacturer hasn't clearly specified
> Ah capacity in a table at 5, 10, 20 hour rates it's not designed for
> repeated discharge.
>
>
> On Mon, Feb 6, 2017 at 5:01 AM, Harold Bledsoe 
> wrote:
>
> Beware of deep cycle marine batteries. These typically are not true deep
> cycle batteries. At 50% depth of discharge, you can expect around 300
> cycles (or 1 year if doing it daily). A true deep cycle battery will do
> about 3x that number.
>
> On Sun, Feb 5, 2017 at 9:00 PM Keefe John  wrote:
>
> Exide has a 105 AH battery for $81
>
>
> http://www.menards.com/main/electrical/batteries-battery-chargers/automotive-lead-acid-batteries/exide-regng-27-12-month-nautilus-marine-deep-cycle-battery/p-130136307-c-9100.htm?tid=-3310133469912273928
>
>
> On February 5, 2017 4:55:55 PM CST, Eric Kuhnke 
> wrote:
>
> Found this, sunelec.com (big solar equipment dealer for off grid) is
> selling the 106Ah version of these for $185 a piece plus pallet shipping:
>
>
> http://www.outbackpower.com/downloads/documents/Store_the_Energy/energycell_re_top_terminal/energycellREtopterminal_specsheet.pdf
>
> Outback, as far as I know, doesn't actually have a battery factory. But
> they are a fairly large company so they are relabeling somebody else's deep
> cycle off grid design AGM battery. In terms of $/Wh stored the only thing
> that beats it is the 6V 225Ah wet cell batteries from Trojan.
>
>
> On Sat, Feb 4, 2017 at 6:00 AM, Harold Bledsoe 
> wrote:
>
> I can across an interesting tip / option -
>
> Have you considered going with forklift batteries? They are flooded lead
> acid however I'm reading that they can last 3x longer than golf cart
> batteries in PV applications.
>
>
> http://gbindustrialbattery.com/Forklift_Battery_Sizes_and_Specifications_Zone15.html
>
> I guess the weight is a downside. Just make sure the whole family eats
> their Wheaties on moving day. :-)
>
> Hal
>
> On Thu, Feb 2, 2017 at 7:11 PM Eric Kuhnke  wrote:
>
> Looking for a bunch of 12V 100Ah AGM top terminal batteries for off grid
> PV. Wondering if anyone has recently got a particularly good deal for
> something like the Trojan T31 or similar.
>
>
> --
>
> Harold Bledsoe
>
>
>
> --
> Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.
>
> --
>
> Harold Bledsoe
>
> --

Harold Bledsoe

Re: [AFMUG] Particularly good recent battery deals?

[Chuck McCown]

I have purchased from them before but have not looked at them lately.  

They have some huge warehouses full of stuff that probably did not come direct 
from the factory.  

I bought a truckload of grade B stuff but I had a guy go to Miami and inspect 
everything before it got loaded.  

From: Eric Kuhnke 
Sent: Monday, February 06, 2017 11:40 AM
To: af@afmug.com 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Particularly good recent battery deals?

I thought you knew about sunelec.com?  Its owner is famously eccentric... 

22 cents/watt for used or grade C panels. More realistically in pallet 
quantities, 35-38 cents/watt for factory new grade B panels with minor 
blemishes, or around 40-42 cents/watt for new grade A. Some of the cheaper 
stuff they're selling are older panels from 5-6 years ago which are less 
efficient in W/sqft than a recent model (example 250-260W 60-cell vs newer more 
expensive 285-290W 60-cell). So you do have to figure in a larger area occupied 
and higher mounting costs for the same size system.


On Sun, Feb 5, 2017 at 8:02 PM, Chuck McCown <ch...@wbmfg.com> wrote:

  Wow, 22 cents per watt solar panels.  Wow wow wow.  

  From: Eric Kuhnke 
  Sent: Sunday, February 05, 2017 3:55 PM
  To: af@afmug.com 
  Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Particularly good recent battery deals?

  Found this, sunelec.com (big solar equipment dealer for off grid) is selling 
the 106Ah version of these for $185 a piece plus pallet shipping:


  
http://www.outbackpower.com/downloads/documents/Store_the_Energy/energycell_re_top_terminal/energycellREtopterminal_specsheet.pdf


  Outback, as far as I know, doesn't actually have a battery factory. But they 
are a fairly large company so they are relabeling somebody else's deep cycle 
off grid design AGM battery. In terms of $/Wh stored the only thing that beats 
it is the 6V 225Ah wet cell batteries from Trojan.



  On Sat, Feb 4, 2017 at 6:00 AM, Harold Bledsoe <hbledso...@gmail.com> wrote:

I can across an interesting tip / option -

Have you considered going with forklift batteries? They are flooded lead 
acid however I'm reading that they can last 3x longer than golf cart batteries 
in PV applications.


http://gbindustrialbattery.com/Forklift_Battery_Sizes_and_Specifications_Zone15.html

I guess the weight is a downside. Just make sure the whole family eats 
their Wheaties on moving day. :-)

Hal

On Thu, Feb 2, 2017 at 7:11 PM Eric Kuhnke <eric.kuh...@gmail.com> wrote:

  Looking for a bunch of 12V 100Ah AGM top terminal batteries for off grid 
PV. Wondering if anyone has recently got a particularly good deal for something 
like the Trojan T31 or similar. 


-- 

Harold Bledsoe

Re: [AFMUG] Particularly good recent battery deals?

[Eric Kuhnke]

I thought you knew about sunelec.com?  Its owner is famously eccentric...

22 cents/watt for used or grade C panels. More realistically in pallet
quantities, 35-38 cents/watt for factory new grade B panels with minor
blemishes, or around 40-42 cents/watt for new grade A. Some of the cheaper
stuff they're selling are older panels from 5-6 years ago which are less
efficient in W/sqft than a recent model (example 250-260W 60-cell vs newer
more expensive 285-290W 60-cell). So you do have to figure in a larger area
occupied and higher mounting costs for the same size system.


On Sun, Feb 5, 2017 at 8:02 PM, Chuck McCown <ch...@wbmfg.com> wrote:

> Wow, 22 cents per watt solar panels.  Wow wow wow.
>
> *From:* Eric Kuhnke
> *Sent:* Sunday, February 05, 2017 3:55 PM
> *To:* af@afmug.com
> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Particularly good recent battery deals?
>
> Found this, sunelec.com (big solar equipment dealer for off grid) is
> selling the 106Ah version of these for $185 a piece plus pallet shipping:
>
> http://www.outbackpower.com/downloads/documents/Store_the_
> Energy/energycell_re_top_terminal/energycellREtopterminal_specsheet.pdf
>
> Outback, as far as I know, doesn't actually have a battery factory. But
> they are a fairly large company so they are relabeling somebody else's deep
> cycle off grid design AGM battery. In terms of $/Wh stored the only thing
> that beats it is the 6V 225Ah wet cell batteries from Trojan.
>
>
>
> On Sat, Feb 4, 2017 at 6:00 AM, Harold Bledsoe <hbledso...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> I can across an interesting tip / option -
>>
>> Have you considered going with forklift batteries? They are flooded lead
>> acid however I'm reading that they can last 3x longer than golf cart
>> batteries in PV applications.
>>
>> http://gbindustrialbattery.com/Forklift_Battery_Sizes_and_
>> Specifications_Zone15.html
>>
>> I guess the weight is a downside. Just make sure the whole family eats
>> their Wheaties on moving day. :-)
>>
>> Hal
>>
>> On Thu, Feb 2, 2017 at 7:11 PM Eric Kuhnke <eric.kuh...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Looking for a bunch of 12V 100Ah AGM top terminal batteries for off grid
>>> PV. Wondering if anyone has recently got a particularly good deal for
>>> something like the Trojan T31 or similar.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>> --
>>
>> Harold Bledsoe
>>
>
>

Re: [AFMUG] Particularly good recent battery deals?

[Eric Kuhnke]

Anything rated in CCA (cold cranking amps) is not suitable for cyclic
solar/wind power applications. If the manufacturer hasn't clearly specified
Ah capacity in a table at 5, 10, 20 hour rates it's not designed for
repeated discharge.


On Mon, Feb 6, 2017 at 5:01 AM, Harold Bledsoe  wrote:

> Beware of deep cycle marine batteries. These typically are not true deep
> cycle batteries. At 50% depth of discharge, you can expect around 300
> cycles (or 1 year if doing it daily). A true deep cycle battery will do
> about 3x that number.
>
> On Sun, Feb 5, 2017 at 9:00 PM Keefe John  wrote:
>
>> Exide has a 105 AH battery for $81
>>
>> http://www.menards.com/main/electrical/batteries-battery-
>> chargers/automotive-lead-acid-batteries/exide-regng-27-12-
>> month-nautilus-marine-deep-cycle-battery/p-130136307-c-9100.htm?tid=-
>> 3310133469912273928
>>
>>
>> On February 5, 2017 4:55:55 PM CST, Eric Kuhnke 
>> wrote:
>>
>> Found this, sunelec.com (big solar equipment dealer for off grid) is
>> selling the 106Ah version of these for $185 a piece plus pallet shipping:
>>
>> http://www.outbackpower.com/downloads/documents/Store_the_
>> Energy/energycell_re_top_terminal/energycellREtopterminal_specsheet.pdf
>>
>> Outback, as far as I know, doesn't actually have a battery factory. But
>> they are a fairly large company so they are relabeling somebody else's deep
>> cycle off grid design AGM battery. In terms of $/Wh stored the only thing
>> that beats it is the 6V 225Ah wet cell batteries from Trojan.
>>
>>
>> On Sat, Feb 4, 2017 at 6:00 AM, Harold Bledsoe 
>> wrote:
>>
>> I can across an interesting tip / option -
>>
>> Have you considered going with forklift batteries? They are flooded lead
>> acid however I'm reading that they can last 3x longer than golf cart
>> batteries in PV applications.
>>
>> http://gbindustrialbattery.com/Forklift_Battery_Sizes_
>> and_Specifications_Zone15.html
>>
>> I guess the weight is a downside. Just make sure the whole family eats
>> their Wheaties on moving day. :-)
>>
>> Hal
>>
>> On Thu, Feb 2, 2017 at 7:11 PM Eric Kuhnke  wrote:
>>
>> Looking for a bunch of 12V 100Ah AGM top terminal batteries for off grid
>> PV. Wondering if anyone has recently got a particularly good deal for
>> something like the Trojan T31 or similar.
>>
>>
>> --
>>
>> Harold Bledsoe
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.
>>
> --
>
> Harold Bledsoe
>

Re: [AFMUG] Particularly good recent battery deals?

[Harold Bledsoe]

Beware of deep cycle marine batteries. These typically are not true deep
cycle batteries. At 50% depth of discharge, you can expect around 300
cycles (or 1 year if doing it daily). A true deep cycle battery will do
about 3x that number.

On Sun, Feb 5, 2017 at 9:00 PM Keefe John  wrote:

> Exide has a 105 AH battery for $81
>
>
> http://www.menards.com/main/electrical/batteries-battery-chargers/automotive-lead-acid-batteries/exide-regng-27-12-month-nautilus-marine-deep-cycle-battery/p-130136307-c-9100.htm?tid=-3310133469912273928
>
>
> On February 5, 2017 4:55:55 PM CST, Eric Kuhnke 
> wrote:
>
> Found this, sunelec.com (big solar equipment dealer for off grid) is
> selling the 106Ah version of these for $185 a piece plus pallet shipping:
>
>
> http://www.outbackpower.com/downloads/documents/Store_the_Energy/energycell_re_top_terminal/energycellREtopterminal_specsheet.pdf
>
> Outback, as far as I know, doesn't actually have a battery factory. But
> they are a fairly large company so they are relabeling somebody else's deep
> cycle off grid design AGM battery. In terms of $/Wh stored the only thing
> that beats it is the 6V 225Ah wet cell batteries from Trojan.
>
>
> On Sat, Feb 4, 2017 at 6:00 AM, Harold Bledsoe 
> wrote:
>
> I can across an interesting tip / option -
>
> Have you considered going with forklift batteries? They are flooded lead
> acid however I'm reading that they can last 3x longer than golf cart
> batteries in PV applications.
>
>
> http://gbindustrialbattery.com/Forklift_Battery_Sizes_and_Specifications_Zone15.html
>
> I guess the weight is a downside. Just make sure the whole family eats
> their Wheaties on moving day. :-)
>
> Hal
>
> On Thu, Feb 2, 2017 at 7:11 PM Eric Kuhnke  wrote:
>
> Looking for a bunch of 12V 100Ah AGM top terminal batteries for off grid
> PV. Wondering if anyone has recently got a particularly good deal for
> something like the Trojan T31 or similar.
>
>
> --
>
> Harold Bledsoe
>
>
>
> --
> Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.
>
-- 

Harold Bledsoe

Re: [AFMUG] Particularly good recent battery deals?

[Chuck McCown]

Wow, 22 cents per watt solar panels.  Wow wow wow.  

From: Eric Kuhnke 
Sent: Sunday, February 05, 2017 3:55 PM
To: af@afmug.com 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Particularly good recent battery deals?

Found this, sunelec.com (big solar equipment dealer for off grid) is selling 
the 106Ah version of these for $185 a piece plus pallet shipping:


http://www.outbackpower.com/downloads/documents/Store_the_Energy/energycell_re_top_terminal/energycellREtopterminal_specsheet.pdf


Outback, as far as I know, doesn't actually have a battery factory. But they 
are a fairly large company so they are relabeling somebody else's deep cycle 
off grid design AGM battery. In terms of $/Wh stored the only thing that beats 
it is the 6V 225Ah wet cell batteries from Trojan.



On Sat, Feb 4, 2017 at 6:00 AM, Harold Bledsoe <hbledso...@gmail.com> wrote:

  I can across an interesting tip / option -

  Have you considered going with forklift batteries? They are flooded lead acid 
however I'm reading that they can last 3x longer than golf cart batteries in PV 
applications.

  
http://gbindustrialbattery.com/Forklift_Battery_Sizes_and_Specifications_Zone15.html

  I guess the weight is a downside. Just make sure the whole family eats their 
Wheaties on moving day. :-)

  Hal

  On Thu, Feb 2, 2017 at 7:11 PM Eric Kuhnke <eric.kuh...@gmail.com> wrote:

Looking for a bunch of 12V 100Ah AGM top terminal batteries for off grid 
PV. Wondering if anyone has recently got a particularly good deal for something 
like the Trojan T31 or similar. 


  -- 

  Harold Bledsoe

Re: [AFMUG] Particularly good recent battery deals?

[Keefe John]

Exide has a 105 AH battery for $81

http://www.menards.com/main/electrical/batteries-battery-chargers/automotive-lead-acid-batteries/exide-regng-27-12-month-nautilus-marine-deep-cycle-battery/p-130136307-c-9100.htm?tid=-3310133469912273928


On February 5, 2017 4:55:55 PM CST, Eric Kuhnke  wrote:
>Found this, sunelec.com (big solar equipment dealer for off grid) is
>selling the 106Ah version of these for $185 a piece plus pallet
>shipping:
>
>http://www.outbackpower.com/downloads/documents/Store_the_Energy/energycell_re_top_terminal/energycellREtopterminal_specsheet.pdf
>
>Outback, as far as I know, doesn't actually have a battery factory. But
>they are a fairly large company so they are relabeling somebody else's
>deep
>cycle off grid design AGM battery. In terms of $/Wh stored the only
>thing
>that beats it is the 6V 225Ah wet cell batteries from Trojan.
>
>
>
>On Sat, Feb 4, 2017 at 6:00 AM, Harold Bledsoe 
>wrote:
>
>> I can across an interesting tip / option -
>>
>> Have you considered going with forklift batteries? They are flooded
>lead
>> acid however I'm reading that they can last 3x longer than golf cart
>> batteries in PV applications.
>>
>> http://gbindustrialbattery.com/Forklift_Battery_Sizes_
>> and_Specifications_Zone15.html
>>
>> I guess the weight is a downside. Just make sure the whole family
>eats
>> their Wheaties on moving day. :-)
>>
>> Hal
>>
>> On Thu, Feb 2, 2017 at 7:11 PM Eric Kuhnke 
>wrote:
>>
>>> Looking for a bunch of 12V 100Ah AGM top terminal batteries for off
>grid
>>> PV. Wondering if anyone has recently got a particularly good deal
>for
>>> something like the Trojan T31 or similar.
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>
>> Harold Bledsoe
>>

-- 
Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.

Re: [AFMUG] Particularly good recent battery deals?

[Eric Kuhnke]

Found this, sunelec.com (big solar equipment dealer for off grid) is
selling the 106Ah version of these for $185 a piece plus pallet shipping:

http://www.outbackpower.com/downloads/documents/Store_the_Energy/energycell_re_top_terminal/energycellREtopterminal_specsheet.pdf

Outback, as far as I know, doesn't actually have a battery factory. But
they are a fairly large company so they are relabeling somebody else's deep
cycle off grid design AGM battery. In terms of $/Wh stored the only thing
that beats it is the 6V 225Ah wet cell batteries from Trojan.



On Sat, Feb 4, 2017 at 6:00 AM, Harold Bledsoe  wrote:

> I can across an interesting tip / option -
>
> Have you considered going with forklift batteries? They are flooded lead
> acid however I'm reading that they can last 3x longer than golf cart
> batteries in PV applications.
>
> http://gbindustrialbattery.com/Forklift_Battery_Sizes_
> and_Specifications_Zone15.html
>
> I guess the weight is a downside. Just make sure the whole family eats
> their Wheaties on moving day. :-)
>
> Hal
>
> On Thu, Feb 2, 2017 at 7:11 PM Eric Kuhnke  wrote:
>
>> Looking for a bunch of 12V 100Ah AGM top terminal batteries for off grid
>> PV. Wondering if anyone has recently got a particularly good deal for
>> something like the Trojan T31 or similar.
>>
>>
>> --
>
> Harold Bledsoe
>

Re: [AFMUG] Particularly good recent battery deals?

[Harold Bledsoe]

I can across an interesting tip / option -

Have you considered going with forklift batteries? They are flooded lead
acid however I'm reading that they can last 3x longer than golf cart
batteries in PV applications.

http://gbindustrialbattery.com/Forklift_Battery_Sizes_and_Specifications_Zone15.html

I guess the weight is a downside. Just make sure the whole family eats
their Wheaties on moving day. :-)

Hal

On Thu, Feb 2, 2017 at 7:11 PM Eric Kuhnke  wrote:

> Looking for a bunch of 12V 100Ah AGM top terminal batteries for off grid
> PV. Wondering if anyone has recently got a particularly good deal for
> something like the Trojan T31 or similar.
>
>
> --

Harold Bledsoe

Re: [AFMUG] Particularly good recent battery deals?

[Ken Hohhof]

If you don’t find any great surplus deals, I have been happy with Concorde Sun 
Xtender 104 or 108 Ah AGM batteries.  Any Concorde/Lifeline dealer should be 
able to get them in a couple days, I have one within driving distance so I go 
get them and avoid shipping costs.  Normal price is around $300, less if you 
buy a bunch.

 

If you are buying a whole bunch of them, an alternative is 8D marine batteries 
(e.g. Lifeline).  Heavy, but thank goodness for rope handles.

 

If you are putting them on shelves, front-terminal telecom batteries can make 
life easier.

 

I don’t know how to correctly estimate AGM battery life.  I have various 
Lifeline, Sun Xtender and Northstar batteries (all made in USA) in service for 
5+ years and no signs of wearing out.  Normally with the standard batteries 
that go inside a UPS, I change them after 2-3 years because I know they will 
short out or swell up and fail.  I am hesitant to do that at sites with $2000 
worth of batteries, probably just do a load test a couple times a year.  There 
seems to be a big difference in quality between the cheapest batteries and the 
ones they sell to carriers for remote terminals.

 

 

From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Colin Stanners
Sent: Thursday, February 2, 2017 7:17 PM
To: af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Particularly good recent battery deals?

 

I'm careful of possibly aged-on-shelf batteries as well, but our purchasing 
from TelecomSurplus has been great so my first assumption would be that these 
are OK - best to contact them and ask.

 

On Feb 2, 2017 6:40 PM, "Eric Kuhnke" <eric.kuh...@gmail.com 
<mailto:eric.kuh...@gmail.com> > wrote:

Pretty suspicious of "surplus" batteries that have been sitting around self 
discharging for a long time.

 

Sunelec.com is selling Outback 106RE batteries (12V 100Ah) at $185 ea.

 

 

 

On Thu, Feb 2, 2017 at 4:19 PM, Colin Stanners <cstann...@gmail.com 
<mailto:cstann...@gmail.com> > wrote:

TelecomSurplus recently mailed:
C Technologies TEL Long Duration Series Batteries
100 Ah AGM with Front Access  In Stock & Ready to Ship!

 

On Thu, Feb 2, 2017 at 6:11 PM, Eric Kuhnke <eric.kuh...@gmail.com 
<mailto:eric.kuh...@gmail.com> > wrote:

Looking for a bunch of 12V 100Ah AGM top terminal batteries for off grid PV. 
Wondering if anyone has recently got a particularly good deal for something 
like the Trojan T31 or similar.

 

 

 

 

Re: [AFMUG] Particularly good recent battery deals?

[Colin Stanners]

I'm careful of possibly aged-on-shelf batteries as well, but our purchasing
from TelecomSurplus has been great so my first assumption would be that
these are OK - best to contact them and ask.

On Feb 2, 2017 6:40 PM, "Eric Kuhnke"  wrote:

> Pretty suspicious of "surplus" batteries that have been sitting around
> self discharging for a long time.
>
> Sunelec.com is selling Outback 106RE batteries (12V 100Ah) at $185 ea.
>
>
>
> On Thu, Feb 2, 2017 at 4:19 PM, Colin Stanners 
> wrote:
>
>> TelecomSurplus recently mailed:
>> C Technologies TEL Long Duration Series Batteries
>> 100 Ah AGM with Front Access  In Stock & Ready to Ship!
>>
>> On Thu, Feb 2, 2017 at 6:11 PM, Eric Kuhnke 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Looking for a bunch of 12V 100Ah AGM top terminal batteries for off grid
>>> PV. Wondering if anyone has recently got a particularly good deal for
>>> something like the Trojan T31 or similar.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>

Re: [AFMUG] Particularly good recent battery deals?

[Eric Kuhnke]

Pretty suspicious of "surplus" batteries that have been sitting around self
discharging for a long time.

Sunelec.com is selling Outback 106RE batteries (12V 100Ah) at $185 ea.



On Thu, Feb 2, 2017 at 4:19 PM, Colin Stanners  wrote:

> TelecomSurplus recently mailed:
> C Technologies TEL Long Duration Series Batteries
> 100 Ah AGM with Front Access  In Stock & Ready to Ship!
>
> On Thu, Feb 2, 2017 at 6:11 PM, Eric Kuhnke  wrote:
>
>> Looking for a bunch of 12V 100Ah AGM top terminal batteries for off grid
>> PV. Wondering if anyone has recently got a particularly good deal for
>> something like the Trojan T31 or similar.
>>
>>
>>
>

Re: [AFMUG] Particularly good recent battery deals?

[Colin Stanners]

TelecomSurplus recently mailed:
C Technologies TEL Long Duration Series Batteries
100 Ah AGM with Front Access  In Stock & Ready to Ship!

On Thu, Feb 2, 2017 at 6:11 PM, Eric Kuhnke  wrote:

> Looking for a bunch of 12V 100Ah AGM top terminal batteries for off grid
> PV. Wondering if anyone has recently got a particularly good deal for
> something like the Trojan T31 or similar.
>
>
>

[AFMUG] Particularly good recent battery deals?

[Eric Kuhnke]

Looking for a bunch of 12V 100Ah AGM top terminal batteries for off grid
PV. Wondering if anyone has recently got a particularly good deal for
something like the Trojan T31 or similar.