Re: SV: [agi] mouse uploading
I think someone at UCLA did something similar for lobsters. This was
used as material for an SF story ("Lobsters", Charles Stross[sp?])
Jan Mattsson wrote:
Has this approach been successful for any "lesser" animals? E.g.; has anyone
simulated an insect brain system connected to a simulated insect body in a virtual
environment? Starting with a mouse brain seems a bit ambitious.
Since I haven't posted on the list before I guess I should introduce myself: I'm Jan Mattsson in
Stockholm, Sweden. A software developer by profession, I first became interested in AI when I read
"Gödel Escher Bach - an Eternal Golden Braid" many years ago (actually switched from
physics to computer science because of it). More recently I read Kurzweil's "The Singularity
is near", that brought me here.
/JanM
-Ursprungligt meddelande-
Från: J. Storrs Hall, PhD. [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Skickat: lö 2007-04-28 19:15
Till: agi@v2.listbox.com
Ämne: [agi] mouse uploading
In case anyone is interested, some folks at IBM Almaden have run a
one-hemisphere mouse-brain simulation at the neuron level on a Blue Gene (in
0.1 real time):
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/6600965.stm
http://ieet.org/index.php/IEET/more/cascio20070425/
http://www.modha.org/papers/rj10404.pdf which reads in gist:
Neurobiologically realistic, large-scale cortical and sub-cortical simulations
are bound to play a key role in computational neuroscience and its
applications to cognitive computing. One hemisphere of the mouse cortex has
roughly 8,000,000 neurons and 8,000 synapses per neuron. Modeling at this
scale imposes tremendous constraints on computation, communication, and
memory capacity of any computing platform.
We have designed and implemented a massively parallel cortical simulator with
(a) phenomenological spiking neuron models; (b) spike-timing dependent
plasticity; and (c) axonal delays.
We deployed the simulator on a 4096-processor BlueGene/L supercomputer with
256 MB per CPU. We were able to represent 8,000,000 neurons (80% excitatory)
and 6,300 synapses per neuron in the 1 TB main memory of the system. Using a
synthetic pattern of neuronal interconnections, at a 1 ms resolution and an
average firing rate of 1 Hz, we were able to run 1s of model time in 10s of
real time!
Josh
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SV: [agi] mouse uploading
Has this approach been successful for any "lesser" animals? E.g.; has anyone simulated an insect brain system connected to a simulated insect body in a virtual environment? Starting with a mouse brain seems a bit ambitious. Since I haven't posted on the list before I guess I should introduce myself: I'm Jan Mattsson in Stockholm, Sweden. A software developer by profession, I first became interested in AI when I read "Gödel Escher Bach - an Eternal Golden Braid" many years ago (actually switched from physics to computer science because of it). More recently I read Kurzweil's "The Singularity is near", that brought me here. /JanM -Ursprungligt meddelande- Från: J. Storrs Hall, PhD. [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Skickat: lö 2007-04-28 19:15 Till: agi@v2.listbox.com Ämne: [agi] mouse uploading In case anyone is interested, some folks at IBM Almaden have run a one-hemisphere mouse-brain simulation at the neuron level on a Blue Gene (in 0.1 real time): http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/6600965.stm http://ieet.org/index.php/IEET/more/cascio20070425/ http://www.modha.org/papers/rj10404.pdf which reads in gist: Neurobiologically realistic, large-scale cortical and sub-cortical simulations are bound to play a key role in computational neuroscience and its applications to cognitive computing. One hemisphere of the mouse cortex has roughly 8,000,000 neurons and 8,000 synapses per neuron. Modeling at this scale imposes tremendous constraints on computation, communication, and memory capacity of any computing platform. We have designed and implemented a massively parallel cortical simulator with (a) phenomenological spiking neuron models; (b) spike-timing dependent plasticity; and (c) axonal delays. We deployed the simulator on a 4096-processor BlueGene/L supercomputer with 256 MB per CPU. We were able to represent 8,000,000 neurons (80% excitatory) and 6,300 synapses per neuron in the 1 TB main memory of the system. Using a synthetic pattern of neuronal interconnections, at a 1 ms resolution and an average firing rate of 1 Hz, we were able to run 1s of model time in 10s of real time! Josh - This list is sponsored by AGIRI: http://www.agiri.org/email To unsubscribe or change your options, please go to: http://v2.listbox.com/member/?&; - This list is sponsored by AGIRI: http://www.agiri.org/email To unsubscribe or change your options, please go to: http://v2.listbox.com/member/?member_id=231415&user_secret=fabd7936<>
Re: [agi] mouse uploading
Numbers for humans vary rather a lot. Some types of cells have up to 200,000 connections (Purkinje neurons) while others have very few. Thus talking about "the" number of synapses per neuron doesn't make much sense. It all depends on which type of neuron etc. you mean. Anyway, when talking about a global brain average I most often see the number 1,000. For rat cortex (which is a bit different to mouse cortex in terms of thickness and density) I usually see the number 10,000 as the average (just for cortex, not the whole brain). Shane On 4/29/07, Matt Mahoney <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Does anyone know if the number of synapses per neuron (8000) for mouse cortical cells also apply to humans? This is the first time I have seen an estimate of this number. I believe the researchers based their mouse simulation on anatomical studies. --- "J. Storrs Hall, PhD." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > In case anyone is interested, some folks at IBM Almaden have run a > one-hemisphere mouse-brain simulation at the neuron level on a Blue Gene (in > > 0.1 real time): > > http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/6600965.stm > http://ieet.org/index.php/IEET/more/cascio20070425/ > http://www.modha.org/papers/rj10404.pdf which reads in gist: > > Neurobiologically realistic, large-scale cortical and sub-cortical > simulations > are bound to play a key role in computational neuroscience and its > applications to cognitive computing. One hemisphere of the mouse cortex has > roughly 8,000,000 neurons and 8,000 synapses per neuron. Modeling at this > scale imposes tremendous constraints on computation, communication, and > memory capacity of any computing platform. > We have designed and implemented a massively parallel cortical simulator > with > (a) phenomenological spiking neuron models; (b) spike-timing dependent > plasticity; and (c) axonal delays. > We deployed the simulator on a 4096-processor BlueGene/L supercomputer with > > 256 MB per CPU. We were able to represent 8,000,000 neurons (80% excitatory) > > and 6,300 synapses per neuron in the 1 TB main memory of the system. Using a > > synthetic pattern of neuronal interconnections, at a 1 ms resolution and an > average firing rate of 1 Hz, we were able to run 1s of model time in 10s of > real time! > > Josh > > - > This list is sponsored by AGIRI: http://www.agiri.org/email > To unsubscribe or change your options, please go to: > http://v2.listbox.com/member/?&; > -- Matt Mahoney, [EMAIL PROTECTED] - This list is sponsored by AGIRI: http://www.agiri.org/email To unsubscribe or change your options, please go to: http://v2.listbox.com/member/?&; - This list is sponsored by AGIRI: http://www.agiri.org/email To unsubscribe or change your options, please go to: http://v2.listbox.com/member/?member_id=231415&user_secret=fabd7936
Re: [agi] mouse uploading
Does anyone know if the number of synapses per neuron (8000) for mouse cortical cells also apply to humans? This is the first time I have seen an estimate of this number. I believe the researchers based their mouse simulation on anatomical studies. --- "J. Storrs Hall, PhD." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > In case anyone is interested, some folks at IBM Almaden have run a > one-hemisphere mouse-brain simulation at the neuron level on a Blue Gene (in > > 0.1 real time): > > http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/6600965.stm > http://ieet.org/index.php/IEET/more/cascio20070425/ > http://www.modha.org/papers/rj10404.pdf which reads in gist: > > Neurobiologically realistic, large-scale cortical and sub-cortical > simulations > are bound to play a key role in computational neuroscience and its > applications to cognitive computing. One hemisphere of the mouse cortex has > roughly 8,000,000 neurons and 8,000 synapses per neuron. Modeling at this > scale imposes tremendous constraints on computation, communication, and > memory capacity of any computing platform. > We have designed and implemented a massively parallel cortical simulator > with > (a) phenomenological spiking neuron models; (b) spike-timing dependent > plasticity; and (c) axonal delays. > We deployed the simulator on a 4096-processor BlueGene/L supercomputer with > > 256 MB per CPU. We were able to represent 8,000,000 neurons (80% excitatory) > > and 6,300 synapses per neuron in the 1 TB main memory of the system. Using a > > synthetic pattern of neuronal interconnections, at a 1 ms resolution and an > average firing rate of 1 Hz, we were able to run 1s of model time in 10s of > real time! > > Josh > > - > This list is sponsored by AGIRI: http://www.agiri.org/email > To unsubscribe or change your options, please go to: > http://v2.listbox.com/member/?&; > -- Matt Mahoney, [EMAIL PROTECTED] - This list is sponsored by AGIRI: http://www.agiri.org/email To unsubscribe or change your options, please go to: http://v2.listbox.com/member/?member_id=231415&user_secret=fabd7936
Re: [agi] mouse uploading
When I first saw this on the BBC web site I thought it looked exciting - maybe the first "upload". But on closer inspection it seems to be less impressive. There is an extremely brief report on what they did, which looks like merely simulating a large number of neurons on a supercomputer, without any detailed biological architecture as far as I can tell and no mention of glial interactions. Simulating a lot of neurons is an achievement, and may be a precursor to uploading. A while back I did some preliminary image processing on the BranMaps data sets, and it is possible to automatically identify cell bodies and their processes. Of course this is still a long way from being able to simulate what's going on in detail, since the images tell you nothing about the chemistry. Some examples are as follows: http://farm1.static.flickr.com/45/360938915_827b42d493_o.jpg http://farm1.static.flickr.com/137/360938913_6b7ffb9cbe_o.jpg These are the denizens of layer 6 of the primate cortex. Strange looking creatures indeed. Not at all like the neat rows of transistors that would be found on an integrated circuit, or the highly idealised models from computer science. The green blobs are cell bodies. I exchanged a few emails with the folks at BrainMaps, and the next major step which they anticipate is scanning the brain slices using lasers to get even higher accuracy. This should permit, in the not too distant future (mainly dependent upon availability of large quantities of hard disk space and a suitable customised scanner), complete reverse engineering of the physical architecture of the brain. There are difficult practical problems, such as being able to align multiple brain slices with an accuracy sufficient for the fine processes (dendrites and axons) to line up. Based upon these discussions I think the first brain upload, for pure physical architecture at least, may not be as far away as many might suppose. For practicality I expect the first creature to be uploaded will be some small animal, like a mouse or rat. On 28/04/07, J. Storrs Hall, PhD. <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: In case anyone is interested, some folks at IBM Almaden have run a one-hemisphere mouse-brain simulation at the neuron level on a Blue Gene (in 0.1 real time): http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/6600965.stm http://ieet.org/index.php/IEET/more/cascio20070425/ http://www.modha.org/papers/rj10404.pdf which reads in gist: Neurobiologically realistic, large-scale cortical and sub-cortical simulations are bound to play a key role in computational neuroscience and its applications to cognitive computing. One hemisphere of the mouse cortex has roughly 8,000,000 neurons and 8,000 synapses per neuron. Modeling at this scale imposes tremendous constraints on computation, communication, and memory capacity of any computing platform. We have designed and implemented a massively parallel cortical simulator with (a) phenomenological spiking neuron models; (b) spike-timing dependent plasticity; and (c) axonal delays. We deployed the simulator on a 4096-processor BlueGene/L supercomputer with 256 MB per CPU. We were able to represent 8,000,000 neurons (80% excitatory) and 6,300 synapses per neuron in the 1 TB main memory of the system. Using a synthetic pattern of neuronal interconnections, at a 1 ms resolution and an average firing rate of 1 Hz, we were able to run 1s of model time in 10s of real time! Josh - This list is sponsored by AGIRI: http://www.agiri.org/email To unsubscribe or change your options, please go to: http://v2.listbox.com/member/?&; - This list is sponsored by AGIRI: http://www.agiri.org/email To unsubscribe or change your options, please go to: http://v2.listbox.com/member/?member_id=231415&user_secret=fabd7936
Re: [agi] mouse uploading
The man issue is, we we still have basically no idea of the patterns according to which the neurons in the mouse brain are really interconnected, except in some particular regions ... so semi-randomly hooking up 8 million (well-simulated individually) neurons is not really simulating half a mouse brain... -- Ben G On 4/28/07, Lukasz Stafiniak <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: On 4/28/07, Eugen Leitl <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > On Sat, Apr 28, 2007 at 01:15:13PM -0400, J. Storrs Hall, PhD. wrote: > > In case anyone is interested, some folks at IBM Almaden have run a > > one-hemisphere mouse-brain simulation at the neuron level on a Blue Gene (in > > What they did was running a simplified, unrealistic model. Do you think that Blue Brain is realistic enough? Would you dare to speculate how simple yet realistic enough model can we arrive at, given data from experiments and simulations? - This list is sponsored by AGIRI: http://www.agiri.org/email To unsubscribe or change your options, please go to: http://v2.listbox.com/member/?&; - This list is sponsored by AGIRI: http://www.agiri.org/email To unsubscribe or change your options, please go to: http://v2.listbox.com/member/?member_id=231415&user_secret=fabd7936
Re: [agi] mouse uploading
On 4/28/07, Eugen Leitl <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: On Sat, Apr 28, 2007 at 01:15:13PM -0400, J. Storrs Hall, PhD. wrote: > In case anyone is interested, some folks at IBM Almaden have run a > one-hemisphere mouse-brain simulation at the neuron level on a Blue Gene (in What they did was running a simplified, unrealistic model. Do you think that Blue Brain is realistic enough? Would you dare to speculate how simple yet realistic enough model can we arrive at, given data from experiments and simulations? - This list is sponsored by AGIRI: http://www.agiri.org/email To unsubscribe or change your options, please go to: http://v2.listbox.com/member/?member_id=231415&user_secret=fabd7936
Re: [agi] mouse uploading
On Sat, Apr 28, 2007 at 01:15:13PM -0400, J. Storrs Hall, PhD. wrote: > In case anyone is interested, some folks at IBM Almaden have run a > one-hemisphere mouse-brain simulation at the neuron level on a Blue Gene (in What they did was running a simplified, unrealistic model. It's still a great spiking code AI benchmark, given that #1 of Top 500 has 16x the performance, putting it into one realtime mouse, assuming (a rather large if) country, or at least about eight slow mice. Or one equally slow Algernon. > 0.1 real time): Despite 125 us latency (thanks, Sony, for virtualizing even the bloody GBit Ethernet, and even more so for locking us out from the nVidia chip, and the entire video memory) PS3 looks like a great system for garage AI: http://www.netlib.org/utk/people/JackDongarra/PAPERS/scop3.pdf The nodes are power-hungry, but 65 nm structure shrink has already occured, so second-generation PS3's can be quite interesting. Of course, one could always wait for Barcelona, not many months away now. -- Eugen* Leitl http://leitl.org";>leitl http://leitl.org __ ICBM: 48.07100, 11.36820 http://www.ativel.com http://postbiota.org 8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A 7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE - This list is sponsored by AGIRI: http://www.agiri.org/email To unsubscribe or change your options, please go to: http://v2.listbox.com/member/?member_id=231415&user_secret=fabd7936
[agi] mouse uploading
In case anyone is interested, some folks at IBM Almaden have run a one-hemisphere mouse-brain simulation at the neuron level on a Blue Gene (in 0.1 real time): http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/6600965.stm http://ieet.org/index.php/IEET/more/cascio20070425/ http://www.modha.org/papers/rj10404.pdf which reads in gist: Neurobiologically realistic, large-scale cortical and sub-cortical simulations are bound to play a key role in computational neuroscience and its applications to cognitive computing. One hemisphere of the mouse cortex has roughly 8,000,000 neurons and 8,000 synapses per neuron. Modeling at this scale imposes tremendous constraints on computation, communication, and memory capacity of any computing platform. We have designed and implemented a massively parallel cortical simulator with (a) phenomenological spiking neuron models; (b) spike-timing dependent plasticity; and (c) axonal delays. We deployed the simulator on a 4096-processor BlueGene/L supercomputer with 256 MB per CPU. We were able to represent 8,000,000 neurons (80% excitatory) and 6,300 synapses per neuron in the 1 TB main memory of the system. Using a synthetic pattern of neuronal interconnections, at a 1 ms resolution and an average firing rate of 1 Hz, we were able to run 1s of model time in 10s of real time! Josh - This list is sponsored by AGIRI: http://www.agiri.org/email To unsubscribe or change your options, please go to: http://v2.listbox.com/member/?member_id=231415&user_secret=fabd7936
