DIS: [Webmastor] Homepage Update Shoutout
The homepage (agoranomic.org) has received some internal updates today. Trigon took the initiative to figure out how to update the homepage to github's markdown and jekyll instead of pure html while keeping the classic two-column look. It doesn't look any different, but this will make the page much easier to maintain and update in the future. --- Nch Prime Minister, Webmastor
Re: BUS: Re: DIS: Re: OFF: [Promotor] Distribution of Proposals 8473-8476
‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐ On Saturday, July 18, 2020 8:41 AM, nixnull+agora--- via agora-business wrote: > On Saturday, July 18, 2020 8:40:11 AM CDT nixnull+agora--- via agora- > discussion wrote: > > > (This is nch. I might be switching to this email address, playing around > > with settings right now. I'll send an email from nchagora to prove > > identity.) > > If I've submitted any ballots for any proposals listed below, which I don't > > think I have, I withdraw them. > > I vote as follows: > > On Sunday, July 12, 2020 3:10:21 PM CDT Aris Merchant via agora-official Proving that the above is indeed me. nixn...@protonmail.com is the address, the + is an alias on the address (I could technically put anything behind the +).
DIS: Re: BUS: Contract: A Rival Ship Appears
‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐
On Monday, July 13, 2020 5:02 PM, ATMunn via agora-business
wrote:
>
> I propose the following amendment to The Platonic Parrot:
>
> {
> Replace the following text:
>
> "This contract may be amended by a Platonic Pirate with the consent of
> 2/3rds (rounded up) of all Platonic Pirates."
>
> with the following:
>
> "Any Platonic Pirate may propose an amendment to this contract by
> announcement. If at least 2/3rds (rounded up) of all Platonic Pirates
> have consented to the amendment, and at least 2 days have passed since
> the amendment was proposed, any Platonic Pirate can cause this contract
> to be amended in this way by announcement."
> }
>
I consent to the above amendment.
Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Contract: A Rival Ship Appears
Is there a preferred fix to this? Just adding a time period to it? Original Message On Jul 13, 2020, 3:44 PM, Jason Cobb via agora-business wrote: > On 7/13/20 4:25 PM, Falsifian via agora-discussion wrote: >>> This contract may be amended by a Platonic Pirate with the consent of >>> 2/3rds (rounded up) of all Platonic Pirates. >> This lets a fast-acting 2/3 of the parties take stuff from the remaining >> 1/3. >> > > I cease being party to the Platonic Pirate. > > -- > Jason Cobb
Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Re: OFF: [Promotor] Distribution of Proposals 8473-8476
‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐ On Sunday, July 12, 2020 10:09 PM, Kerim Aydin via agora-discussion wrote: > > Scam, dunno details, nch is listed as conspirator, it involved Rule 2492? > 2017-06-28 Quazie +K Scam where I as Assessor manipulated the assessment order in order to give ais523 and myself a junta win. Quazie had coconspired by voting FOR on the relevant proposal, so ais523 gave em a black ribbon. I didn't get one because I had deregistered myself shortly after receiving the win (for unrelated reasons). ais523 originally misreferenced R2492 when e meant 2942. https://www.mail-archive.com/agora-business@agoranomic.org/msg28705.html https://www.mail-archive.com/agora-official@agoranomic.org/msg07894.html
DIS: Re: BUS: Contract: A Rival Ship Appears
I leave the Pirate Plundership.
‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐
On Sunday, July 12, 2020 7:22 PM, Nch via agora-business
wrote:
> I consent to the following contract:
>
> {
>
> The Platonic Parrot
>
> A party to this contract is also known as a Platonic Pirate. Any player
> who is not currently Marked can join this contract by announcement. Any
> player can leave this contract by announcement. When someone is
> deregistered, e automatically leaves the contract.
>
> If a Platonic Pirate objects to an intent to transfer assets to this
> contract, e ceases to be a party to the contract. If a player has
> objected to an intent to transfer assets to this contract in the last 7
> days, e is Marked.
>
> When the Platonic Parrot has assets, any Platonic Pirate CAN by
> announcement divy them in the following way:
>
> - Where X is the total number of coins owned by the Platonic Parrot and
> Y is the number of Platonic Pirates, e transfers each Platonic Pirate
> X/Y (rounded down) coins from the Platonic Parrot.
>
> - If there are still coins owned by the Platonic Parrot, e transfer
> emself all the remaining coins.
>
> - If there are any other assets owned by the Platonic Parrot, e
> transfers emself one of them of eir own choice.
>
> - If there are still assets owned by the Platonic Parrot, e transfers
> them to other Platonic Pirates such that no Platonic Pirate receives
> more than 1 more asset than any other Platonic Pirate (excluding the
> coins e gave emself in the earlier step). As long as this constraint
> is met, e may choose who gets what assets.
>
> This contract may be amended by a Platonic Pirate with the consent of
> 2/3rds (rounded up) of all Platonic Pirates.
>
> }
>
>
> Nch
DIS: Re: BUS: [Proposal, not pended] Regulated Welcomes
On 7/6/20 1:32 PM, Publius Scribonius Scholasticus via agora-business wrote: > "When a player receives a Welcome Package, e earns a set of assets > defined by the Treasuror's regulations. When the Treasuror's regulations > are silent, e earns 25 coins and one of each type of Card defined in the > rules." I actually don't approve of tying the cards into this, just the coins. -- nch Prime Minister, Webmastor, NAX Exchange Manager
Re: DIS: Re: BUS: [Proposal, not pended] Warmer Welcomes
On 7/6/20 1:01 PM, Publius Scribonius Scholasticus via agora-discussion wrote: > On 7/6/20 2:00 PM, nch via agora-discussion wrote: >> On 7/6/20 12:54 PM, ATMunn via agora-business wrote: >>> [This came from a discussion on Discord in which nch mentioned that the >>> current 10 coin welcome packages really don't help that much. 25 may >>> still be on the low side, but I think it's a lot better. I added in the >>> last clause because I felt it unfair to the players who just recently >>> registered to get the lesser Welcome Packages. It would be as if they >>> were cheated out of those coins just because they wanted to start >>> playing the game. The "for the first time" should stop any extra coins >>> going to the scammers if somehow it turns out the scam was successful.] >> Specifically the issue is that coins continually accrue, which causes >> inflation. This is going to continuously need updates for the amount it >> gives you to have the same purchasing power unless we find a way to >> limit circulation. >> > Why not just make it a switch specified by the Treasuror's regulations? > This would allow em to either set it directly or use a formula to do so. This seems like a nice, pragmatic solution. I'd be in favor of something like this. -- nch Prime Minister, Webmastor, NAX Exchange Manager
DIS: Re: BUS: [Proposal, not pended] Warmer Welcomes
On 7/6/20 12:54 PM, ATMunn via agora-business wrote: > [This came from a discussion on Discord in which nch mentioned that the > current 10 coin welcome packages really don't help that much. 25 may > still be on the low side, but I think it's a lot better. I added in the > last clause because I felt it unfair to the players who just recently > registered to get the lesser Welcome Packages. It would be as if they > were cheated out of those coins just because they wanted to start > playing the game. The "for the first time" should stop any extra coins > going to the scammers if somehow it turns out the scam was successful.] Specifically the issue is that coins continually accrue, which causes inflation. This is going to continuously need updates for the amount it gives you to have the same purchasing power unless we find a way to limit circulation. -- nch Prime Minister, Webmastor, NAX Exchange Manager
Re: DIS: on negative karma (Re: BUS: Proposal: Upvotes)
On 7/4/20 12:19 PM, Kerim Aydin via agora-discussion wrote: > > On 7/3/2020 4:32 PM, omd via agora-business wrote: >> - The ability to take away others' karma is removed. I didn't want to do >> this, >> since I think the 'balanced karma' system is a quite interesting >> mechanic. >> But for karma transfers to feel cheap, I think you have to be able to >> perform >> them without penalizing someone else, at least sometimes. > After thinking on this a little overnight, I don't think it's good to > remove negative karma. I *do* think it's a good idea to go away from zero > sum though. > > It's true that large % of the time I want to give positive karma and feel > bad for having to find a zero-sum negative. But there's a small > percentage of the time when it's useful to be able to apply a social > negative feedback that's "real" (e.g. it is recorded against someone so it > is "heard") but isn't gamified (doesn't stop a person from winning or > voting or anything). > > Without that relief valve I think we'll be more quick to point > fingers/blot and get annoyed, because there won't be any other relief > valve. And finger-pointing is really an escalation. It's not "I've made > my minor point of disapproval and we can move on now"; fingerpointing > suggests that the person has to defend themselves rather than saying > "you're right my bad" and letting it pass. > > Also, karma should decay for everyone, much faster than it is. Sometimes > people end up down at say -4 when they make a single ill-advised move and > several people get annoyed. Fine, ding them and it's deserved - but when > they're still at -4 six months later that's a problem, it lends itself to > "no one will let me forget that so who cares if I'm down here" attitude. > > -G. > > Quick proto that integrates negative karma into omd's idea: Positive Karma and Negative Karma are currencies. [All the stuff omd had about Karma but just for Positive Karma.] A player CAN by announcement create Negative Karma in eir ownership and specify another player to receive the same amount of Negative Karma. If a player has both Negative and Positive Karma, an equal amount of both is automatically destroyed such that e only has one type. -- nch Prime Minister, Webmastor, NAX Exchange Manager
Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Registration - Fred
On 7/3/20 9:32 PM, Fred via agora-discussion wrote: > I have four midterms this coming week so I'll hold off this time around. > Thank you for the invite though! > > > Generally speaking, are tournaments a good way to get a feel for things? Tournaments are fairly rare events. This one is in celebration of Agora's 27th birthday. I'm not sure how well it'd help you learn Agora in general since it has its own sub rules. Besides the tournament we also have a bit of an economy going right now. When you got your Welcome Package you got some cards (1 each of Legislative, Victory, Judicial, and Voting). You can pay a set of 1-4 cards to get items related to those fields. You also have 10 coins. You can buy/sell/trade with other players to get more cards. There's also quite a few Contracts to interact with right now. Most but not all have something to do with the Cards. You can join whichever ones seem interesting to you. They're listed here: https://www.mail-archive.com/agora-official@agoranomic.org/msg10267.html -- nch Prime Minister, Webmastor, NAX Exchange Manager
Re: DIS: Re: BUS: @Notary @Treasuror, I do the scam anyway
On 7/3/20 4:20 PM, Jason Cobb via agora-discussion wrote: > On 7/3/20 5:14 PM, Publius Scribonius Scholasticus via agora-discussion > wrote: >> On 7/3/20 5:14 PM, nch via agora-discussion wrote: >>> On 7/3/20 4:02 PM, Jason Cobb via agora-business wrote: >>>> On 6/30/20 10:26 AM, Becca Lee via agora-business wrote: >>>>> I COE the most recent proposal assessment: you missed a vote by G. in >>>>> https://mailman.agoranomic.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/agora-business/2020-June/043813.html >>>> Pursuant to the judgment in CFJ 3860, I deny this CoE, thus causing it >>>> to cease to be a doubt and restarting the clock for self-ratification of >>>> the assessment at 7 days. >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Jason Cobb >>>> >>> That's not how that works. It has to be "continuously undoubted". There >>> was a time period where it was doubted, and therefore it wasn't continuous. >>> >> I think that's what Jason meant by "restarting". >> > Yes. I denied the CoE, thus causing it to cease to be a doubt (R2201). > There were no other doubts, so the statement is currently undoubted. If > there are no more doubts for one week, it will self-ratify. > > -- > Jason Cobb > Oh I just misread this and thought you meant the clock was continuing from the original publication and was very perplexed by it. My mistake. -- nch Prime Minister, Webmastor, NAX Exchange Manager
Re: DIS: Re: [Treasuror] Reward Re: BUS: CFJ 3860 judged FALSE
On 7/3/20 4:15 PM, Kerim Aydin via agora-discussion wrote: > > Signalling question: I've been interpreting [Treasusor] subject lines as > things that are strictly *from* the treasuror (as opposed to [attn. > Treasuror]). Is that the best way to distinguish - in particular are > officers searching for [Officer] but not [attn. Officer]? > > -G. > Honestly, I like the @ notation R. lee used instead of ATTN because it's more clearly different and slightly shorter. -- nch Prime Minister, Webmastor, NAX Exchange Manager
DIS: Re: BUS: @Notary @Treasuror, I do the scam anyway
On 7/3/20 4:02 PM, Jason Cobb via agora-business wrote: > On 6/30/20 10:26 AM, Becca Lee via agora-business wrote: >> I COE the most recent proposal assessment: you missed a vote by G. in >> https://mailman.agoranomic.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/agora-business/2020-June/043813.html > > Pursuant to the judgment in CFJ 3860, I deny this CoE, thus causing it > to cease to be a doubt and restarting the clock for self-ratification of > the assessment at 7 days. > > -- > Jason Cobb > That's not how that works. It has to be "continuously undoubted". There was a time period where it was doubted, and therefore it wasn't continuous. -- nch Prime Minister, Webmastor, NAX Exchange Manager
Re: DIS: Draft Judgement of CFJ 3860
On 7/2/20 12:40 PM, ATMunn via agora-discussion wrote: > I have put together my judgement for CFJ 3860 [assuming that is the > number it will be assigned by the CotC]. I am mainly publishing this as > a draft and not an official judgement because I want to wait for > confirmation that it is actually CFJ 3860. Unless someone finds a major > issue with my logic, I will leave the judgement as is. FWIW I think what you have makes sense but since variations of this topic have been discussed in previous CFJs this would be much stronger if you incorporated them. Either to explain how they support your ruling, why this situation is different than those, or why you think the precedent doesn't apply/should be overturned. That would make this a much more convincing ruling overall.
Re: DIS: art degrees
On 7/2/20 10:14 AM, James Cook via agora-discussion wrote: > One strange thing here is that Bard is mixed in with a long list of > other titles in R2581, but (from this point of view) is arguably more > similar to degrees than those other titles. > > Also, I recently noticed the description of Bard says it's for > *repeated* creative wit or poetry. Though I think we recently awarded > it for a single work. I was wondering about this too. A bard or a poet laureate irl is someone who continually creates/performs. A B.A. is more for someone who has shown a certain level of mastery over the ability to do so, but doesn't necessarily do it regularly. I don't know if Agora wants or cares about such a distinction. -- nch Prime Minister, Webmastor, NAX Exchange Manager
Re: DIS: Re: [Attn. Referee] Re: BUS: @Notary @Treasuror, I do the scam anyway
On 7/2/20 4:21 AM, omd via agora-discussion wrote: > Arguments: > > at 12:43 AM, Becca Lee via agora-discussion > wrote: > >> I clearly meant that i transfer the cards nch had, "those cards" into >> products in 4 sets of 4. obviously i did not mean that 18 is 4x4. > Your rephrased version is still self-contradictory to my ears. You didn’t > say that you transferred 4 sets of 4 'out of' or ‘from’ those cards, or > that you transferred 16 of the cards in 4 sets of 4, etc., but just that > you transferred "those cards" “in 4 sets of 4”. That equates “those cards” > with “4 sets of 4”. They were paid, not transferred. I would not expect someone to specify "I have $20. I take 18 out of that and break that into 3 sets of 6." instead of "I have $20. I give 3 people $6 each." > > As an analogy, if an advertisement promised I could “pay the fee for this > service in 4 installments of $40”, I would expect $160 to be the entire > fee. I would be quite dismayed to hear that it was only part of the fee, > and there was also, say, a $20 surcharge not included in the installments. This might frustrate you but it would not be necessarily illegal. Nor is it relevant to Agora. >> this is so extremely obvious that you calling a CFJ on it is actually >> harmful to gameplay. > It's obvious what you meant, at least given enough context. And therefore, your CFJ is frivolous. There's plenty of context in that message. > It’s not at > all obvious to me that what you said is close enough to what you meant. > (You are lucky, however, that the “unambiguously and clearly specifying the > action” standard from R478 seems to not apply here, so there may be more > wiggle room for ambiguity.)
DIS: Re: [Attn. Referee] Re: BUS: @Notary @Treasuror, I do the scam anyway
On 7/1/20 11:43 PM, omd via agora-business wrote:
> at 7:26 AM, Becca Lee via agora-business
> [](mailto:agora-busin...@agoranomic.org)
> wrote:
>
>> {Acting on behalf of nch, I resolve one of eir intents to deregister R.
>> Lee. I register. I award myself a welcome package. I transfer a victory
>> card and a justice card to nch.}
>>
>> I repeat the above actions in braces so that they happen 16 times total.
>> Nch has 18 victory cards and 18 justice cards.
>>
>> I act on nch’s behalf to pay those victory and justice cards into products
>> in 4 sets of 4 so that e has 40 victory points and 40 Blot-B-Gones.
>
> CFJ, submitted to Referee: The above-quoted attempt to pay cards on nch’s
> behalf was unsuccessful because attempting to pay 18 Victory Cards and/or
> 18 Justice Cards in 4 sets of 4 is self-contradictory.
Arguments:
This isn't self contradictory. It might be a little confusing on the surface
but it's clearly possible to use 4 sets of 4 out of 18 total. E didn't claim to
use all of them, or that there would be none left.
DIS: Re: BUS: Notice of Honour
On 6/30/20 8:51 AM, Jason Cobb via agora-business wrote: > This is a notice of honour. > > -1 Jason for attempting to resolve the fix proposal too early, opening a > scam opportunity > > +1 nch for not taking advantage of that opportunity > > -- > Jason Cobb > This is a notice of honour. +1 Jason for trying eir best to counterscam and being a fun opponent -1 nch for undeserved honour from Jason -- nch Prime Minister, Webmastor, NAX Exchange Manager
DIS: Re: BUS: @Notary @Treasuror, I do the scam anyway
On 6/30/20 9:26 AM, Becca Lee via agora-business wrote: > I COE the most recent proposal assessment: you missed a vote by G. in > https://mailman.agoranomic.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/agora-business/2020-June/043813.html > > That message, therefore making the assessment invalid. So the scam I've > been threatening to do can still be done. G. was sneaky and didn't even tell us about this ballot until earlier this morning. -- nch Prime Minister, Webmastor, NAX Exchange Manager
DIS: [Proto, ATTN Referee] Competitive Finger Pointing
Here's a proper version of Competitive Finger Pointing. Title: Competitive Finger Pointing AI: 1.7 Author: nch Coauthors: Amend R2478, "Vigilante Justice" by adding after the list items: Initiating a Finger Pointing found to be Shenanigans is the class 0+N crime of Shenaniganery, where N is the number of times e has previously committed the crime in the last 7 days. and by adding, to the very end of the rule: The player who initiated the most Finger Pointings that resulted in an Indictment or Cold Hand of Justice in the previous calendar week CAN once grant emself a Blot-B-Gone card by announcement. -- nch Prime Minister, Webmastor, NAX Exchange Manager
Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Re: OFF: [Promotor] Distribution of Proposals 8459-8472
On 6/30/20 8:03 AM, Publius Scribonius Scholasticus via agora-discussion wrote: > On 6/30/20 9:02 AM, nch via agora-discussion wrote: >> On 6/30/20 7:57 AM, Publius Scribonius Scholasticus via agora-discussion >> wrote: >>> On 6/30/20 8:52 AM, nch via agora-discussion wrote: >>>> On 6/30/20 5:47 AM, Publius Scribonius Scholasticus via agora-business >>>> wrote: >>>>> AGAINST (I'd be supportive of this if it didn't get rid of Certifiable >>>>> Patches) >>>> Is the 2+X support mechanism not a sufficient replacement? Why not? >>>> >>> No, it's not because of its use of a dependent action and the fact that >>> only the Promotor can use it. >> What's wrong with it being a dependent action? Support can be resolved >> as soon as you have the support. >> > Even so, it extends the time between the intent and actualization. > > -- > > Publius Scribonius Scholasticus, Herald, Referee, Tailor, Pirate > Champion, Badge of the Great Agoran Revival, Badge of the Salted Earth How often are we worried about pending a proposal as soon as humanly possible? If you're trying to get it distributed immediately you already need at least 2 people to coordinate. -- nch Prime Minister, Webmastor, NAX Exchange Manager
Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Re: OFF: [Promotor] Distribution of Proposals 8459-8472
On 6/30/20 7:57 AM, Publius Scribonius Scholasticus via agora-discussion wrote: > On 6/30/20 8:52 AM, nch via agora-discussion wrote: >> On 6/30/20 5:47 AM, Publius Scribonius Scholasticus via agora-business >> wrote: >>> AGAINST (I'd be supportive of this if it didn't get rid of Certifiable >>> Patches) >> Is the 2+X support mechanism not a sufficient replacement? Why not? >> > No, it's not because of its use of a dependent action and the fact that > only the Promotor can use it. What's wrong with it being a dependent action? Support can be resolved as soon as you have the support. -- nch Prime Minister, Webmastor, NAX Exchange Manager
DIS: Re: BUS: Re: OFF: [Promotor] Distribution of Proposals 8459-8472
On 6/30/20 5:47 AM, Publius Scribonius Scholasticus via agora-business wrote: > AGAINST (I'd be supportive of this if it didn't get rid of Certifiable > Patches) Is the 2+X support mechanism not a sufficient replacement? Why not? -- nch Prime Minister, Webmastor, NAX Exchange Manager
Re: DIS: [Notary] Informal Contract Awards
On 6/29/20 12:11 PM, ATMunn via agora-discussion wrote: > For the Participation Award, given to the people who are members to the > most contracts: I would restrict this to people who are members of contracts with at least two members. Otherwise, I like the idea!
DIS: Re: OFF: [Notary] The Notes (weekly report)
On 6/29/20 11:37 AM, ATMunn via agora-official wrote: > "Co Dependents" nch, R. Lee The text you have for this contract is wrong. It excludes the original text of the contract [0]. We appended two lines [1] and then removed one of those two [2]. [0] https://www.mail-archive.com/agora-business@agoranomic.org/msg36844.html [1] https://www.mail-archive.com/agora-business@agoranomic.org/msg37081.html [2] https://www.mail-archive.com/agora-business@agoranomic.org/msg37181.html > "New contract" R. Lee, nch This contract was destroyed [3]. [3] https://www.mail-archive.com/agora-business@agoranomic.org/msg37185.html
Re: DIS: [Proto] Welcoming Back Outlaws
On 6/29/20 1:46 AM, Aris Merchant via agora-discussion wrote:
> Okay, I'm tired, and this is the best I can think of right now. This
> would allow exiled players to be repeatedly exiled until they get down
> to 9 blots, but give them welcome packages back afterward. Why 9? A
> player with fewer than 9 blots has sufferage, and with the Blot-B-Gone
> from the Justice Card in eir welcome package, a player who has 9 blots
> can get down to 8 and be able to vote. This seems like as good a
> solution as any to me. LMK what you all think.
>
> -Aris
> ---
> Title: Welcoming Back Outlaws
> Adoption index: 3.0
> Author: Aris
> Co-authors:
>
>
> Amend Rule 2556, "Penalties", by changing its final paragraph to read in full:
>
>Outlawed is a secured negative boolean switch, belonging to persons and
>tracked by the Referee. A player CAN, with 7 days notice, deregister
> (exile)
>a specified player (the outlaw) who has more than 40 blots or is outlawed.
>A person who has been exiled becomes outlawed if e is not already. Any
>person CAN cause any outlawed person with 9 or fewer blots to cease being
>outlawed by announcement.
>
> If the proposal "Welcome Package Patch" passed, amend Rule 2499,
> "Welcome Packages", by changing the last sentence of the first paragraph
> to have the text labeled "FIXED TEXT" below. Otherwise, amend Rule 2499,
> "Welcome Packages", by appending the text labeled "FIXED TEXT" below to the
> first paragraph.
>
> FIXED TEXT: {
>An outlawed player CANNOT receive a Welcome Package via this method.
> }
This seems really over engineered. All we need to do is amend the new
sentence in Welcome Package Patch adds to read "A player CANNOT receive
a Welcome Package via this method if was last deregistered by exile and
currently has more than 9 blots."
--
nch
Prime Minister, Webmastor, NAX Exchange Manager
DIS: Re: BUS: [CFJ] Agoran Announcements
On 6/28/20 9:28 PM, nch via agora-business wrote: > There was some debate and disagreement about this in the discord the > other night, so I think it's worth formally discussing. As a tangent, I don't think I could've formulated this CFJ this well without the previous discussion in discord. In my opinion this is a good example of ephemeral discussion (such as brainstorming) leading to better long-form communication. -- nch Prime Minister, Webmastor, NAX Exchange Manager
Re: DIS: Re: BUS: [Proposal] Contract charities
On 6/28/20 7:21 PM, James Cook via agora-discussion wrote: > On Sat, 27 Jun 2020 at 00:53, Publius Scribonius Scholasticus via > agora-discussion wrote: >> On 6/26/20 8:45 PM, James Cook via agora-business wrote: >>>This SHOULD only be done if the >>>contract's provisions ensure that its funds will be used solely >>>for the betterment of Agora. >> I think we should change this to: >>This SHOULD only be done if the contract's provisions ensure that >>the funds received from Agora will be used solely for the >>betterment of Agora. >> >> Some contracts may receive both Agoran and private funds, and only the >> Agoran funds should be restricted. > That's a good point. > > An alternative would be for such a contract to be split into two > pieces, like when a corporation has a charitable foundation attached > to it. I think that would be kind of fun so am inclined to leave the > text as is, but could be persuaded to change it. > > - Falsifian An early, even more needlessly abstract, draft of NAX had the purse as a separate contract just so it was easier to see what belonged to the purse and what was parts of orders and as a proof of concept for interlocking contracts.
DIS: Re: BUS: Contract: SNOCS (Simple, No-Opportunity-Cost Sets)
On 6/28/20 7:07 PM, omd via agora-business wrote: > Any player CAN join the contract by announcement; any party CAN leave the > contract by announcement. Any party CAN remove another party from the > contract > without objection. Each party consents to the aforementioned membership > changes. What stops a party from starting a pool and leaving the contract before they do the steps that require them to distribute the products?
Re: DIS: Re: BUS: [Proposal] Interested Proposals
On 6/23/20 7:33 PM, nch via agora-business wrote:
> On 6/23/20 7:32 PM, nch via agora-discussion wrote:
>> On 6/23/20 7:29 PM, nch via agora-business wrote:
>>> I ditched the idea of Ready Proposals for something more similar to the
>>> old disinterested proposals system. The way this works is by calling
>>> proposals pended with pendants "sponsored" proposals, and making that a
>>> condition of getting the LC and coin rewards. I left a support mechanism
>>> for the Promotor because this scam convinced me that it's a good
>>> mechanism (if there was no support mechanism, the opposition wouldn't
>>> have been able to get their proposal in in time, which wouldn't have
>>> been nearly as fun). We can tweak it as we see what happens with it.
>>>
>>> Also, while I was at it, I rewrote the second paragraph of Popular
>>> Proposal Proposer Privilege. It should be functionally identical but
>>> less verbose.
>> So I forgot to rename this after changing the name of the system... I
>> withdraw Interested Proposals and submit but do not pend the following
>> proposal:
>>
>> {
>>
>> Title: Sponsored Proposals
>> AI: 1.0
>> Author: nch
>> Coauthors: G., Trigon
>>
>> Amend R2622, "Pending Proposals", to read in full:
>>
>> Pended is an untracked negative boolean proposal switch.
>>
>> Any player CAN pay 1 Pendant to flip the Pended switch of a
>> specified proposal to True. If the player did not create the
>> proposal and is not listed in the list of co-authors of the
>> proposal, e is added to the list of co-authors. When e does so,
>> the proposal becomes sponsored.
>>
>> The Promotor CAN, with 2+X support, flip the Pended switch of a
>> proposal in the Proposal Pool to true. For this, X is equal to the
>> number of times e has done so in the past 7 days.
>>
>> Any player CAN, without objection, flip the Pended switch of a
>> proposal in the Proposal Pool to true.
>>
>> A proposal with a Pended switch set to True is 'pending'.
>>
>> Repeal R2626 "Certifiable Patches".
>>
>> Amend R2623, "Popular Proposal Proposer Privilege", by replacing:
>>
>> The player who proposed the adopted proposal whose referendum had
>> the greatest popularity among all referenda assessed in the last 7
>> days CAN once earn one Legislative Card by announcement, provided
>> that no referendum initiated in the same message as it remains
>> unresolved. If there is a tie, all authors of the tied proposals
>> can do so once each.
>>
>> with:
>>
>> The author of the most popular sponsored proposal adopted in the
>> last 7 days CAN once earn one Legislative Card by announcement,
>> provided that no referenda initiated in the same message as it
>> remain unresolved. If there is a tie, all authors of the tied
>> proposals can do so once each.
>>
>> Amend R2496, "Rewards", by replacing "an adopted proposal" with "an
>> adopted sponsored proposal".
>>
>> }
>>
>> --
>> nch
>> Prime Minister, Webmastor, NAX Exchange Manager
>>
>>
> TTttPF
>
> --
> nch
> Prime Minister, Webmastor, NAX Exchange Manager
>
>
Does anyone have any thoughts or feedback on this? Don't want to pend it
with no idea what anyone thinks about it.
--
nch
Prime Minister, Webmastor, NAX Exchange Manager
Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Put the discord on the agora home page
On 6/28/20 3:27 PM, Edward Murphy via agora-discussion wrote: > Falsifian wrote: > >>> On Mon, Jun 22, 2020 at 1:12 PM Rebecca via agora-business < >>> agora-busin...@agoranomic.org> wrote: >>> >>>> See title >>>> >>>> Also all should join it, it has been a fun and very active atmosphere, >>>> although too small. >> >> On Mon, 22 Jun 2020 at 03:17, Rebecca via agora-discussion >> wrote: >>> https://discord.gg/FwmJW8 >> You might consider trying to switch the Publicity of that forum from >> Foreign to Discussion (R478). >> >> As Registrar I can do that without objection, but I have mixed >> feelings about endorsing a proprietary service. I would rather see it >> done by proposal (and I'm not sure how I'd vote). > Also, the invite links are expired, can I get a fresh one? Not sure how > easy/hard it would be to get the web site to auto-update its copy. This one should work indefinitely: https://discord.gg/JCC6YGc -- nch Prime Minister, Webmastor, NAX Exchange Manager
DIS: Re: BUS: Proposal: Decriminalization
On 6/28/20 2:54 PM, Edward Murphy via agora-business wrote: > Amend Rule 2626 (Certifiable Patches) by replacing "unless its sole > function is" with "unless e reasonably believes its sole function is". > > [In addition to quibbles about "sole function", this also covers cases > like "I thought X was a minimal fix until someone suggested Y as an > alternative.] Those aren't just quibbles. I already think Certifiable Patches is too broad and this just makes it broader. -- nch Prime Minister, Webmastor, NAX Exchange Manager
DIS: Scam Wrap-Up
To make this more clear, the finding of CFJ3858 basically kills R. Lee and I's scam. It finds that notices are delayed by withdrawing objections, so the opposition would've just had to take turns withdrawing objections to delay us by several days until the patch (or motion for no confidence) passed. We could retaliate to some of this, like the motion of no confidence, in the same way. Ultimately it'd be a drag out that would be won by the bigger team and probably take up to another week - which wouldn't be fun for play. So we've accepted our defeat and are trying to clean up the mess. With the dissolution of our "on behalf" contracts we can no longer perform the scam (R. Lee was needed to be deregistered by another player each time for it to work). So now we're back to ordinary play. -- nch Prime Minister, Webmastor, NAX Exchange Manager
DIS: Re: BUS: Honor among Pirates [Attn. All "Pirates"]
On 6/16/20 3:17 PM, Cuddle Beam via agora-business wrote: > I could have just let this pass and banked some MAJOR coinage but the > long-term consequences of having people be paranoid about my contracts > isn't worth it imo, I much prefer to have people's trust that I won't > betray them on contracts. So, the thing is that there is a bug in the > Plunder contract - nobody could join because there was no join mechanism. > > So nobody became a Pirate. I suggest you all rejoin. I'm also adding the > latest Parley patch. > > I propose the following Parley: Since it was found that everyone did successfully join, this failed. And afaict Falsifian never resolved either eir intent to amend with consent of the party members or eir intent to ratify a version without objection.
Re: Nomic 217 Re: DIS: Re: BUS: CFJ 3851 judged TRUE
On 6/27/20 4:43 AM, Publius Scribonius Scholasticus via agora-discussion wrote: > On 6/27/20 12:10 AM, omd via agora-discussion wrote: >> On Fri, Jun 26, 2020 at 6:12 PM James Cook via agora-discussion >> wrote: >>> I've thought it would be interesting to play a Nomic that starts with >>> just one simple rule with text like "This is a Nomic; figure the rest >>> out.". Or just on rules written down explicitly. >> Back in 2008, there was a short-lived nomic called "Nomic 217", whose >> initial ruleset consisted in its entirety of this paragraph copied >> from Agora's Rule 217: >> >>When interpreting and applying the rules, the text of the rules >>takes precedence. Where the text is silent, inconsistent, or >>unclear, it is to be augmented by game custom, common sense, past >>judgements, and consideration of the best interests of the game. >> > I think that would be an interesting experiment to revive if others were > interested. > > -- > > Publius Scribonius Scholasticus, Herald, Referee, Tailor, Pirate > Champion, Badge of the Great Agoran Revival, Badge of the Salted Earth I like the idea but wouldn't commit to it right now just because there's so much going on in Agora right now. -- nch Prime Minister, Webmastor, NAX Exchange Manager
Re: DIS: Re: BUS: [Proposal] Talismans Auction Patch
On 6/25/20 11:39 AM, Publius Scribonius Scholasticus via agora-discussion wrote: > For simplicity, would it be possible for the Registrar to adopt > regulations defering to the Treasuror's regulations? I think so. I don't see any reason a Regulation couldn't simply say "Auctions are run as defined in the Regulations defined by the Treasuror" or whatever text is needed to make it clear what you're referring to. -- nch Prime Minister, Webmastor, NAX Exchange Manager
Re: DIS: [proto] Regulatory Instruments draft
On 6/25/20 6:40 PM, Jason Cobb via agora-discussion wrote: > Title: Regulatory Instruments v2 > Author: Jason > Coauthors: Aris > Adoption index: 3.0 Reading this it seems mechanically sound. However I kind of agree with G. Were there any specific deficits with the current regulation system that have affected gameplay negatively? Do we need the extra protections offered by bodies of law? -- nch Prime Minister, Webmastor, NAX Exchange Manager
DIS: Re: BUS: [Proposal] Contract charities
On 6/26/20 7:45 PM, James Cook via agora-business wrote:
>> oh, duh. everyone's been going back and forth so much with ideas and
>> drafts I wasn't thinking of ownership at all. go for it!
> I submit a proposal as follows. (But I do not pend it just yet.)
>
> Title: Contract charities
> Co-authors: G.
> AI: 1
> Text:
> {
> [Comment: The original version was by G..]
>
> Enact the following rule, Charities:
>
>Donation Level is a natural switch for contracts, tracked by the
>Notary, with a default of 0 and a maximum of 25. A contract with
>nonzero donation level is called a Charity.
>
>The Notary CAN flip a contract's donation level to a non-default
>value with 3 Agoran consent. This SHOULD only be done if the
>contract's provisions ensure that its funds will be used solely
>for the betterment of Agora. Any player CAN flip a contract's
>donation level to 0 with Agoran consent.
>
>Whenever a payday occurs, half of each charity's coin holdings
>(rounded down) are destroyed, and then each charity earns a
>number of coins equal to its donation level.
> }
>
> - Falsifian
Part of me is a bigger fan of not having true charities and having some
other payment scheme, like the Reporter selling ad space. But I'm also
not against this. Text looks good mechanically, I'd probably vote
PRESENT on this.
--
nch
Prime Minister, Webmastor, NAX Exchange Manager
Re: DIS: Re: [Indictment] Re: BUS: actually fuck it
On 6/26/20 7:50 PM, Jason Cobb via agora-discussion wrote:
> On 6/26/20 8:38 PM, Publius Scribonius Scholasticus via agora-business
> wrote:
>> Here is the list of proposals that I believe were pended in this way —
>> some may be missing, and I considered the possibility that the finger
>> pointing was insufficiently precise, but given that I can recommend
>> arbitrary punishment, I'm not particularly concerned:
>
> Oooh, time for more semantics!
>
> Rule 2626:
>
>>Any player CAN, by announcement, certify a specified proposal (as
>>a patch), causing it to become pending.
>
> My reading of this would be that any player CAN certify any proposal
> (even one that is already pending), which also makes em cause the
> proposal to become pending as a side effect. This would mean that the
> pending can fail independently of the certification, and R2626 says "A
> player SHALL NOT certify a proposal...", rather than prohibiting the
> pending itself.
>
> I made a similar argument in CFJ 3769 [0], but the language was slightly
> different in that the rule in that case was written in the passive voice
> ("the gamestate is modified" vs R2626's "causing it to become pending").
>
> --
> Jason Cobb
>
Regardless of the interpretation of this clause, "pending" a proposal is
flipping its switch. You can't flip a switch to the same value it
already has, per R2162.
--
nch
Prime Minister, Webmastor, NAX Exchange Manager
Re: DIS: Re: Pledge re BUS: Statement from the Opposition
On 6/26/20 10:52 PM, Jason Cobb via agora-discussion wrote: > On 6/26/20 11:42 PM, Ed Strange via agora-business wrote: >> I pledge to abandin any attrmpt to do this scam if you give ME a win via >> free tournament > > Interesting idea, but I think we'll have to wait to find out how the CFJ > is judged. Also, nch might be able to force you into doing it by contract. > > -- > Jason Cobb > I don't think I can force em to register. Or at least, I hope I can't because that raises a lot of questions... -- nch Prime Minister, Webmastor, NAX Exchange Manager
DIS: Re: [Indictment] Re: BUS: [Proposal] Black ribbon patch
On 6/26/20 11:10 AM, Jason Cobb via agora-business wrote: > I plead guilty, but I really do think that 4 blots is too high a penalty > for what I did. I wrote a patch for a bug that was possibly exploitable > in the future, but I certified it under what I think was a plausible > reading of the rule (even if ultimately found to be wrong) for the > purpose of testing a new rule (and, sure, saving the pendant). [Since > this is a public message, I'm not lying, and it would be illegal for me > to do so.] > > I will destroy one of my pendants if asked to, so that my asset > standings will be the same as what they "should" be. [Not a pledge, but > only because I don't want the notary to have to track it.] FWIW as the judge of this CFJ I agree. I would personally recommend 2 or 3 blots. 4 should be reserved for intentionally flaunting the rule, not a bad reading. -- nch Prime Minister, Webmastor, NAX Exchange Manager
Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Statement from the Opposition
On 6/25/20 3:33 PM, omd via agora-discussion wrote: > On Thu, Jun 25, 2020 at 12:12 PM Jason Cobb via agora-business > wrote: >> Free Tournaments require only 2 Agoran consent to initiate, while >> Emergency Regulations require 3, so the easiest option is a Free >> Tournament that automatically grants a certain person the win. > 3 Agoran Consent is hard but perhaps not impossible. Currently, my > Emergency Regulation intent has objections from the 2 scam team > members, and support from 3 people including me. If nobody else > objects, we could pass it with 7 support, so 4 more... Only the PM can resolve this intent, you'd have to become the PM and this isn't a SHALL so you can't deputize for it. -- nch Prime Minister, Webmastor, NAX Exchange Manager
Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Statement from the Opposition
On 6/25/20 2:35 PM, Aris Merchant wrote: > > > On Thu, Jun 25, 2020 at 12:16 PM nch via agora-discussion > <mailto:agora-discussion@agoranomic.org>> wrote: > > On 6/25/20 2:11 PM, Jason Cobb via agora-business wrote: > > Free Tournaments require only 2 Agoran consent to initiate, while > > Emergency Regulations require 3, so the easiest option is a Free > > Tournament that automatically grants a certain person the win. > However, > > this intent is also vetoable by the Speaker, which would be > incentivized > > to do so in order to keep eir post. This means that bribing the > current > > Speaker with a free win might be the best option. This would > also remove > > the need to control Prime Minister. > > Making up a fake win is better than a scam win? Also this can't be > done > in time. The only way you can delay us long enough would allow us to > delay this long enough. > > > Yes. Part of the fun of scams is that they should be resisted using > any legal game mechanic. If it requires producing an extra win, so be it. > > -Aris How is that different than a scam at that point? -- nch Prime Minister, Webmastor, NAX Exchange Manager
Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Statement from the Opposition
On 6/25/20 2:18 PM, nch via agora-discussion wrote: > On 6/25/20 2:11 PM, Jason Cobb via agora-business wrote: >> It is no secret that we wish to prevent the exile scam from working, >> granting three players wins and resetting our economy. > Also, our side has already proposed and supported a way to avoid > resetting the economy when the win goes through. > > -- > nch > Prime Minister, Webmastor, NAX Exchange Manager > > Sorry, this isn't true. I mixed it up with another proposal that fixes some reset stuff. We're talking about the specifics of such a proposal now. -- nch Prime Minister, Webmastor, NAX Exchange Manager
DIS: Re: BUS: Statement from the Opposition
On 6/25/20 2:11 PM, Jason Cobb via agora-business wrote: > It is no secret that we wish to prevent the exile scam from working, > granting three players wins and resetting our economy. Also, our side has already proposed and supported a way to avoid resetting the economy when the win goes through. -- nch Prime Minister, Webmastor, NAX Exchange Manager
DIS: Re: BUS: Statement from the Opposition
On 6/25/20 2:11 PM, Jason Cobb via agora-business wrote: > Free Tournaments require only 2 Agoran consent to initiate, while > Emergency Regulations require 3, so the easiest option is a Free > Tournament that automatically grants a certain person the win. However, > this intent is also vetoable by the Speaker, which would be incentivized > to do so in order to keep eir post. This means that bribing the current > Speaker with a free win might be the best option. This would also remove > the need to control Prime Minister. Making up a fake win is better than a scam win? Also this can't be done in time. The only way you can delay us long enough would allow us to delay this long enough. -- nch Prime Minister, Webmastor, NAX Exchange Manager
Re: [Attn. R. Lee] Re: DIS: [Reportor] Last Week in Agora
On 6/25/20 10:43 AM, ATMunn via agora-discussion wrote: > The Discord invite link no longer works. It probably expired; Discord > invites expire after a week or 3 days or something by default. > > On 6/24/2020 11:20 PM, James Cook via agora-discussion wrote: >> https://discord.gg/UGxm3v --- Agora suddenly has an unofficial Discord >> server. This happened when a downside of Agora's recent increased >> activity becomes impossible to ignore: the activity is hard to keep up >> with, and it might even be scaring new players away. There was some >> discussion of different strategies, but for now R. Lee went ahead and >> just created the server. > -- > ATMunn > friendly neighborhood notary here :) Forgot that, by default, discord links expire. Here's one that doesn't expire: https://discord.gg/JCC6YGc -- nch Prime Minister, Webmastor, NAX Exchange Manager
Re: DIS: Re: BUS: general objection
On 6/24/20 9:51 PM, omd via agora-discussion wrote: > > >> On Jun 24, 2020, at 6:55 AM, Kerim Aydin via agora-business >> wrote: >> >> >> I object to any and all intents to declare apathy. > But does this adequately identify the intents being objected to? > > (I think there might have been a CFJ along those lines in the past.) I don't think "any" would be but "all" seems unambiguous. -- nch Prime Minister, Webmastor, NAX Exchange Manager
DIS: Re: BUS: [Proposal] Interested Proposals
On 6/23/20 7:29 PM, nch via agora-business wrote:
> I ditched the idea of Ready Proposals for something more similar to the
> old disinterested proposals system. The way this works is by calling
> proposals pended with pendants "sponsored" proposals, and making that a
> condition of getting the LC and coin rewards. I left a support mechanism
> for the Promotor because this scam convinced me that it's a good
> mechanism (if there was no support mechanism, the opposition wouldn't
> have been able to get their proposal in in time, which wouldn't have
> been nearly as fun). We can tweak it as we see what happens with it.
>
> Also, while I was at it, I rewrote the second paragraph of Popular
> Proposal Proposer Privilege. It should be functionally identical but
> less verbose.
So I forgot to rename this after changing the name of the system... I
withdraw Interested Proposals and submit but do not pend the following
proposal:
{
Title: Sponsored Proposals
AI: 1.0
Author: nch
Coauthors: G., Trigon
Amend R2622, "Pending Proposals", to read in full:
Pended is an untracked negative boolean proposal switch.
Any player CAN pay 1 Pendant to flip the Pended switch of a
specified proposal to True. If the player did not create the
proposal and is not listed in the list of co-authors of the
proposal, e is added to the list of co-authors. When e does so,
the proposal becomes sponsored.
The Promotor CAN, with 2+X support, flip the Pended switch of a
proposal in the Proposal Pool to true. For this, X is equal to the
number of times e has done so in the past 7 days.
Any player CAN, without objection, flip the Pended switch of a
proposal in the Proposal Pool to true.
A proposal with a Pended switch set to True is 'pending'.
Repeal R2626 "Certifiable Patches".
Amend R2623, "Popular Proposal Proposer Privilege", by replacing:
The player who proposed the adopted proposal whose referendum had
the greatest popularity among all referenda assessed in the last 7
days CAN once earn one Legislative Card by announcement, provided
that no referendum initiated in the same message as it remains
unresolved. If there is a tie, all authors of the tied proposals
can do so once each.
with:
The author of the most popular sponsored proposal adopted in the
last 7 days CAN once earn one Legislative Card by announcement,
provided that no referenda initiated in the same message as it
remain unresolved. If there is a tie, all authors of the tied
proposals can do so once each.
Amend R2496, "Rewards", by replacing "an adopted proposal" with "an
adopted sponsored proposal".
}
--
nch
Prime Minister, Webmastor, NAX Exchange Manager
Re: DIS: Re: BUS: MOTION OF NO CONFIDENCE
On 6/23/20 6:20 PM, Jason Cobb via agora-business wrote: > On Tue, Jun 23, 2020, 7:10 PM nch via agora-discussion < > agora-discussion@agoranomic.org> wrote: > >> On 6/23/20 5:38 PM, James Cook via agora-business wrote: >>> On Tue, 23 Jun 2020 at 14:04, Jason Cobb via agora-discussion >>> wrote: >>>> On 6/23/20 10:03 AM, nch via agora-discussion wrote: >>>>> The PM doesn't have increased voting strength. And I've already pledged >>>>> to not blot someone else to decrease their strength. Jason plans to try >>>>> to install a member of Dragon Corp as PM, then use that to help them >> win >>>>> and install a Speaker. >>>> You do, because ministries. >>> That's a good point. I support Jason's intent to cause the office of >>> Prime Minister to become vacant, and I withdraw my objection. >>> >>> (Has anyone done the math? Do R. Lee and nch really have a hope of >>> voting down the proposal?) >>> >>> - Falsifian >> I advise people to use the impeachment method instead of this method so >> we can have an election for the office instead of having Jason >> immediately deputize for it when e resolves the intent. >> >> -- >> nch >> Prime Minister, Webmastor, NAX Exchange Manager >> > > If I acquire the office of Prime Minister, I pledge to exercise no cabinet > orders and to initiate an election within 7 days. > Pledge to also not install a speaker. -- nch Prime Minister, Webmastor, NAX Exchange Manager
Re: DIS: Re: BUS: MOTION OF NO CONFIDENCE
On 6/23/20 5:38 PM, James Cook via agora-business wrote: > On Tue, 23 Jun 2020 at 14:04, Jason Cobb via agora-discussion > wrote: >> On 6/23/20 10:03 AM, nch via agora-discussion wrote: >>> The PM doesn't have increased voting strength. And I've already pledged >>> to not blot someone else to decrease their strength. Jason plans to try >>> to install a member of Dragon Corp as PM, then use that to help them win >>> and install a Speaker. >> >> You do, because ministries. > That's a good point. I support Jason's intent to cause the office of > Prime Minister to become vacant, and I withdraw my objection. > > (Has anyone done the math? Do R. Lee and nch really have a hope of > voting down the proposal?) > > - Falsifian I advise people to use the impeachment method instead of this method so we can have an election for the office instead of having Jason immediately deputize for it when e resolves the intent. -- nch Prime Minister, Webmastor, NAX Exchange Manager
Re: DIS: Re: [CFJ] Re: BUS: Vote on P8442
On 6/23/20 3:57 PM, Aris Merchant via agora-discussion wrote: > Imagine, for a second, that you're a detective and you hear a man in > another room say "I stole the painting!". You might whisper to your > assistant "he's confessed that he's the thief!". Now imagine that your > assistant told you "no, he hasn't, because we don't know what the > referent of the word "he" is, and that sentence doesn't make sense > without a referent". > > Are you seeing my point? The argument that you need to know someone's > identity for the person to announce that they're doing something is > ridiculous. It borders on the downright absurd. That's... just not how > words work. You can't go and take perfectly clear rules text and make > it say whatever you want because what it actually says isn't in the > best interest of the game, and I think that's what's happening here. This is more like finding a note that says "I stole the painting" and then claiming "this is definitely an admissible confession." -- nch Prime Minister, Webmastor, NAX Exchange Manager
Re: DIS: Re: BUS: [NoH] Unspecified Honour
On 6/23/20 3:21 PM, Aris Merchant via agora-discussion wrote: > On Tue, Jun 23, 2020 at 1:16 PM Jason Cobb via agora-discussion < > agora-discussion@agoranomic.org> wrote: > >> On 6/23/20 4:13 PM, ATMunn via agora-business wrote: >>> I publish the following Notice of Honour: >>> +1 Agora (Agora has negative karma right now) >>> -1 Unspecified Behavior (for being suspicious and mysterious and >> weird) >> >> >> Does this actually "Specify any other player or Agora to lose karma"? We >> have no idea who "Unspecified Behavior" is, so this arguably fails at >> "specifying" a player. > > I'm not sure about this, but here's a counter-argument. You have no clue > who Aris or ATMunn or Falsifian is either. You have more information about > them, such as their dates of registration. That being said, there's no > particular reason why the information you have attributed to those names > somehow makes those them Canonical Player Names with magical properties. > Unspecified Behavior is Unspecified Behavior, the same way I'm Aris and > ATMunn is ATMunn. > > -Aris Unspecified Behavior didn't argue that they are Unspecified Behavior (or even use that as a name). E argued that e is some existing player, which we know by a different name. That's slightly different. I agree with your conclusion for a different reason: Notice of Honour has to specify a player, but not in an unambiguous way (which is required from some other actions). Seems pretty clear that (if UB is a player) ATMunn did so. -- nch Prime Minister, Webmastor, NAX Exchange Manager
Re: BUS: Re: DIS: Regardless of the Scam Result
On 6/23/20 1:59 PM, omd via agora-business wrote: > I submit, but do not (as I think I cannot) pend, the following proposal: You ought to have a Pending Card which you could pay to make a pendant if you so choose. -- nch Prime Minister, Webmastor, NAX Exchange Manager
Re: DIS: Regardless of the Scam Result
On 6/23/20 12:16 PM, Alex Smith via agora-discussion wrote: > For what it's worth, I think that "manually" skunking this scam by proposal > would be a reasonable way to resolve the circumstance; I doubt either the > scamsters, nor the other players, would have a problem with the resulting > gamestate. Yea I'm fine with that. We're already hoping to keep gamestate pretty stable when this triggers. -- nch Prime Minister, Webmastor, NAX Exchange Manager
Re: DIS: Regardless of the Scam Result
On 6/23/20 10:06 AM, Kerim Aydin wrote: > ok. I'll go ahead and plan for a week for something that's so uncertain > that I might as well just wait it out. no, not gonna. That's my personal > attitude and like it or not, somewhere in Economics 101 is the fact that > uncertainty suppresses economies, even on a toy scale. Uncertainty in an economic system encourages people to liquidate uncertain assets for certain ones, that's exactly what I'm suggesting people do. If you don't want to that's fine, I'm just pointing out that some assets have continuity and people might want to consider that in their play this week. This is also not a scam specific to this economy, it pre-existed with the high score win condition. Nothing added or amended by Sets changed this scam. -- nch Prime Minister, Webmastor, NAX Exchange Manager
Re: DIS: Regardless of the Scam Result
On 6/23/20 9:53 AM, Kerim Aydin via agora-discussion wrote: > > On 6/23/2020 7:49 AM, nch via agora-discussion wrote: >> This scam doesn't actually grind out economy to a hault, or at least it >> doesn't have to. When someone wins by victory points, cards and products >> get reset but coins, blots, and assets created by contracts don't. That >> means there should still be incentive to buy/sell/trade. If it looks >> like the scam is likely to succeed I recommend using what you have how >> you can and selling off the rest. >> > Trade what? coins, blots and contract assets were all the pre-Sets > economy. not much to trade there. > > If I wasn't thinking "ok here's my next trade, and my next, and then I > have these products" that might be a comfort. As it is, it's more like > "well might as well hold on to coins and there's no point in investing in > any cards and products except maybe expunge a blot if I've got one". > > -G. > Trade Cards/Products to someone who can use them before the reset, in exchange for coins which you'll still have after. If you have extra pendants and someone wants to pend some things, they may be willing to buy. The urgency of you ditching the extras presumably will make them cheaper now than they will be post reset. -- nch Prime Minister, Webmastor, NAX Exchange Manager
Re: DIS: Regardless of the Scam Result
On 6/23/20 9:56 AM, Publius Scribonius Scholasticus via agora-discussion wrote: > I just noticed something about Rule 2624: After a reset, officers can't > grant new cards if they had done so in the same month but prior to the > reset. Is this by design? No, unintended/expected. I just didn't think about it but it'd be a good fix. -- nch Prime Minister, Webmastor, NAX Exchange Manager
DIS: Regardless of the Scam Result
This scam doesn't actually grind out economy to a hault, or at least it doesn't have to. When someone wins by victory points, cards and products get reset but coins, blots, and assets created by contracts don't. That means there should still be incentive to buy/sell/trade. If it looks like the scam is likely to succeed I recommend using what you have how you can and selling off the rest. -- nch Prime Minister, Webmastor, NAX Exchange Manager
DIS: Re: BUS: certifying
On 6/23/20 8:49 AM, nch via agora-business wrote: > I CFJ: Welcome Package Patch's sole function is not to minimally rectify > a bug. > > Arguments: It does rectify a bug (although, again, it introduces a new > one). But it was forced through to prevent a scam. R2626 says "A player > SHALL NOT certify a proposal unless its sole function isto minimally > rectify a bug, error, or ambiguity". This has two functions: rectifying > the bug, and preventing a scam. Sole means only, as in "the only function". An additional argument if I may: There's a difference between patching a scam before it's performed, and patching a scam while it's being performed. In the latter, the proposal has a second purpose: to stop a current action. I think if you accepted that this pend met the standards, you could later extend it to cases where it's less clearly a patch and more just a block of a scam under the pretense of a patch. -- nch Prime Minister, Webmastor, NAX Exchange Manager
Re: DIS: Reminder: nch didn't like scams of new systems, ... until e did
On 6/23/20 9:13 AM, Publius Scribonius Scholasticus via agora-discussion wrote: > I'm aware; in fact, I was planning to do this scam. Nevertheless, this > isn't "play[ing] the games we design for a bit first". Look, I'm 100% for you stopping the scam. If the opposition stops it that's fair game. It's the intent to impeach mean that rubs me the wrong way. -- nch Prime Minister, Webmastor, NAX Exchange Manager
Re: DIS: Reminder: nch didn't like scams of new systems, ... until e did
On 6/23/20 9:10 AM, Publius Scribonius Scholasticus via agora-discussion wrote: > On 6/10/20 3:06 PM, nch via agora-discussion wrote: >> I actually meant that out of mild frustration. Sets hasn't started and >> we're about to pass a gameplay tweak meant to 'fix' something that's >> supposedly wrong with it, and it's frustrating to see that the first >> thing anyone plans to do with that tweak is exploit it. I know scams and >> exploits and rule lawyering are part of Agora, but sometimes I just want >> to play the games we design for a bit first. > Also, just want to remind everyone of what e said less than two weeks ago. > > -- > > Publius Scribonius Scholasticus, Herald, Referee, Tailor, Pirate > Champion, Badge of the Great Agoran Revival, Badge of the Salted Earth This isn't a result of any rules I wrote, it was pre-existing. You could've done this to the money win. -- nch Prime Minister, Webmastor, NAX Exchange Manager
Re: DIS: Re: BUS: MOTION OF NO CONFIDENCE
On 6/23/20 9:08 AM, Publius Scribonius Scholasticus via agora-discussion wrote: > On 6/23/20 10:07 AM, nch via agora-discussion wrote: >> You're right, I missed that last night. Still a poor reason to uninstall >> a recently elected official I think, I'm not abusing the office. >> > You're not abusing it, but you are clearly making advantageous use of it > to perpetrate a scam against the good people of Agora. > > -- > > Publius Scribonius Scholasticus, Herald, Referee, Tailor, Pirate > Champion, Badge of the Great Agoran Revival, Badge of the Salted Earth I literally did not know it had extra voting strength. I don't think this a fair assessment. Also, your plan is to vacate me (for a scam unrelated to the office) and then by yourself oppose someone that has a larger coalition from seizing the office for personal gain. -- nch Prime Minister, Webmastor, NAX Exchange Manager
Re: DIS: Re: BUS: MOTION OF NO CONFIDENCE
On 6/23/20 9:04 AM, Publius Scribonius Scholasticus via agora-discussion wrote: > And if Jason does that, I'll oppose it, but right now you are PM. PM > does have increased voting strength as a result of office interests. You're right, I missed that last night. Still a poor reason to uninstall a recently elected official I think, I'm not abusing the office. -- nch Prime Minister, Webmastor, NAX Exchange Manager
Re: DIS: Re: BUS: MOTION OF NO CONFIDENCE
On 6/23/20 9:00 AM, Publius Scribonius Scholasticus via agora-discussion wrote: > On 6/23/20 9:50 AM, nch via agora-discussion wrote: >> On 6/23/20 5:22 AM, Publius Scribonius Scholasticus via agora-business >> wrote: >>> On 6/22/20 10:51 PM, Jason Cobb via agora-business wrote: >>>> I intend, with Agoran consent, to cause the office of Prime Minister to >>>> become vacant. >>>> >>> I support. >>> >>> -- >>> >>> Publius Scribonius Scholasticus, Herald, Referee, Tailor, Pirate >>> Champion, Badge of the Great Agoran Revival, Badge of the Salted Earth >> Annoyed that people are supporting this when its intention is to do >> enable the person that started it to perform their own scams, and this >> office has nothing to do with my scam. But just follow along with it >> without even asking the person that started it to justify why it's >> necessary I guess. >> > At least so far as my support is concerned, that is not the reasoning. I > believe that while scams are part of our expected gameplay, they > shouldn't be conducted by a sitting Prime Minister. I also see ways in > which the Prime Minister could make use of eir office as part of this > scam; most simply, through utilizing eir increased voting strength to > prevent the patch. > > -- > > Publius Scribonius Scholasticus, Herald, Referee, Tailor, Pirate > Champion, Badge of the Great Agoran Revival, Badge of the Salted Earth The PM doesn't have increased voting strength. And I've already pledged to not blot someone else to decrease their strength. Jason plans to try to install a member of Dragon Corp as PM, then use that to help them win and install a Speaker. -- nch Prime Minister, Webmastor, NAX Exchange Manager
DIS: Re: BUS: certifying
On 6/23/20 8:58 AM, Publius Scribonius Scholasticus wrote: > What I mean to say is that, to my mind, closing a loophole that allows a > scam clearly against the intent of the rules is a strict subset of > rectifying a bug. If it was closing the loophole when there's no scam pending I'd agree. But it's different when it's blocking a specific intent that already exists. You arguments would expand Certifying Patches to cover any proposal at all as long as it also patches things. -- nch Prime Minister, Webmastor, NAX Exchange Manager
DIS: Re: BUS: MOTION OF NO CONFIDENCE
On 6/23/20 5:22 AM, Publius Scribonius Scholasticus via agora-business wrote: > On 6/22/20 10:51 PM, Jason Cobb via agora-business wrote: >> I intend, with Agoran consent, to cause the office of Prime Minister to >> become vacant. >> > I support. > > -- > > Publius Scribonius Scholasticus, Herald, Referee, Tailor, Pirate > Champion, Badge of the Great Agoran Revival, Badge of the Salted Earth Annoyed that people are supporting this when its intention is to do enable the person that started it to perform their own scams, and this office has nothing to do with my scam. But just follow along with it without even asking the person that started it to justify why it's necessary I guess. -- nch Prime Minister, Webmastor, NAX Exchange Manager
DIS: Re: BUS: Re: OFF: [Promotor] Distribution of Proposal 8458
On 6/22/20 10:03 PM, nch via agora-business wrote: > On 6/22/20 9:39 PM, Aris Merchant via agora-official wrote: >> ID Author(s)AITitle >> --- >> 8458e Aris 1.0 Welcome Package Patch > CoE (if one applies here). The chamber of this proposal was not set by > announcement. It's an ordinary proposal, not economic. > > -- > nch > Prime Minister, Webmastor, NAX Exchange Manager > > I'm wrong here, missed that the chamber was set in the original proposal. (Forgot you could do that). -- nch Prime Minister, Webmastor, NAX Exchange Manager
DIS: Re: BUS: MOTION OF NO CONFIDENCE
On 6/22/20 9:51 PM, Jason Cobb via agora-business wrote: > I intend, with Agoran consent, to cause the office of Prime Minister to > become vacant. > > -- > Jason Cobb > Also for the record, Jason et al is trying to do this to seize PM and Speaker. R. Lee and I's scam doesn't use PM power and leaves G. as Speaker. -- nch Prime Minister, Webmastor, NAX Exchange Manager
DIS: Re: BUS: MOTION OF NO CONFIDENCE
On 6/22/20 10:05 PM, James Cook via agora-business wrote: > On Tue, 23 Jun 2020 at 02:51, Jason Cobb via agora-business > wrote: >> I intend, with Agoran consent, to cause the office of Prime Minister to >> become vacant. > I object. nch is demonstrating behaviour we should all aspire to as > Agorans. A true leader! (Or is there some way the scam could involve > the office of PM?) > > - Falsifian There is a way, which I will refrain from using unless this intent is likely to resolve. -- nch Prime Minister, Webmastor, NAX Exchange Manager
Re: DIS: Re: BUS: [Proposal] Anonymity Busting
On 6/22/20 8:57 PM, Publius Scribonius Scholasticus via agora-discussion wrote: > On 6/22/20 9:55 PM, Ed Strange via agora-business wrote: >> I create this following proposal (I also certify it, why not) >> >> Title: Fist of Law >> AI: 3 >> Create a power 3 rule with the text "Unless e has revealed eir identity by >> the time this rule is enacted, the player who controls the email address " >> unspecified.behav...@gmail.com" is deregistered and is forever barred from >> registration or participation in the public forums, other rules >> notwithstanding. >> > This lacks closed quotation marks and is questionably risky. > > -- > > Publius Scribonius Scholasticus, Herald, Referee, Tailor, Pirate > Champion, Badge of the Great Agoran Revival, Badge of the Salted Earth " -- nch Prime Minister, Webmastor, NAX Exchange Manager
Re: DIS: [Treasuror] Draft Forward Auction Regulation(s)
On 6/22/20 6:38 PM, Reuben Staley via agora-discussion wrote: > * The auctioneer of a Forward Auction CAN and SHALL in a timely >fashion after the ending of that Forward Auction create a public >message that contains a full history of bids on the auction and >withdrawals from the auction. In the same message, e CAN and SHALL >transfer each awardee eir lots/create the lots in their possession. Probably want to wait until they pay before giving them the award. -- nch Prime Minister, Webmastor, NAX Exchange Manager
Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Put the discord on the agora home page
On 6/22/20 4:28 PM, Publius Scribonius Scholasticus via agora-discussion wrote: >> This is meant to give us back that ephemeral chat. And it already has, >> frankly. In the discord right now is 9 established players, 1 observer, >> and 1 new player. We've done a lot of collaboration on the github pages. >> Nothing these permanent archives would miss, I promise. Things like >> asking each other git technical questions and rapid feedback. Also, >> we've told jokes and talked about side topics and generally goofed >> around in an incredibly refreshing way that has no place on a mailing list. >> >> And every time anyone in the server wanted to say something longer >> winded, they've sent it to the mailing lists. Because that's what >> mailing lists are good at. Having two tools with two different strengths >> makes us stronger than using one tool to do everything. >> >> Again, I shy away from proprietary. But it shouldn't be binary, it >> should be a continuum. Discord fills a slot nothing us is filling for us >> right now. It has a (in my personal opinion) good TOS and good revenue >> plan, ones which are mostly kind to the user. If we find something that >> performs a similar roll to it in the future but is open source, I'm all >> for killing it for that. > This makes sense, but I think the solution to this is to try to > establish some sort of bridge or create some way for people to access it > without an account. I like the bridge idea too, but I'm not entirely sure on the specifics of how to implement it yet. Someone with more server experience might have a better idea. >> I don't think we should turn away a good enough tool because it's not >> perfect. That slowly kills us and alienates us. The fact that I've seen >> 3 people show up and then disappear in the last few weeks, two of which >> explicitly complaining about the avalanche of emails and uncertainty >> about where they can ask questions, should be proof of that. > If you're correct about the usage of this, only one of those problems > will be solved. I think we should think about ways to better deal with > the avalanche on top of this solution. I agree that we should look for other solutions. But I do think this will help both sides. There's definitely been some discussion on the fora that would be better in chat, simply because we didn't have the option of chat (or we did, but nobody used it regularly enough for it to be practical). So it should help a little bit, and it's something we were able to do right away. The Help pages I put up today are intended to assist both these problems too. Not by decreasing message volume, but by giving advice on how to manage message volume. There's definitely more brainstorming to do on this front though. -- nch Prime Minister, Webmastor, NAX Exchange Manager
Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Put the discord on the agora home page
On 6/22/20 3:55 PM, James Cook via agora-discussion wrote: > On Mon, 22 Jun 2020 at 20:53, Publius Scribonius Scholasticus via > agora-discussion wrote: >> On 6/22/20 4:06 PM, nch via agora-discussion wrote: >>> On 6/22/20 3:00 PM, Publius Scribonius Scholasticus via agora-discussion >>> wrote: >>>> On 6/22/20 3:50 PM, James Cook via agora-discussion wrote: >>>>> I can do that without objection >>>> I can save everyone time by saying that I will object. >>>> >>>> -- >>>> >>>> Publius Scribonius Scholasticus, Herald, Referee, Tailor, Pirate >>>> Champion, Badge of the Great Agoran Revival, Badge of the Salted Earth >>> Can I ask what detriment you feel there is to having an extra optional >>> discussion forum? We already have the irc and it doesn't seem to impede >>> normal play... >>> >> For me, I am concerned that it could normalize the use of a proprietary, >> locked-in platform as an official place of discussion. > My concern exactly. > > - Falsifian Trust me, I have spent my entire life using linux and working for non profits, I don't like proprietary. I understand the wariness against Embrace, Extend, Extinguish [1] strategies. But the concern about lock-in for this seems overblown. We had the extremely ephemeral irc. Nobody backed up the conversations there to some archive, and nobody cares because it was specifically meant for conversations that aren't meant to last. This is meant to give us back that ephemeral chat. And it already has, frankly. In the discord right now is 9 established players, 1 observer, and 1 new player. We've done a lot of collaboration on the github pages. Nothing these permanent archives would miss, I promise. Things like asking each other git technical questions and rapid feedback. Also, we've told jokes and talked about side topics and generally goofed around in an incredibly refreshing way that has no place on a mailing list. And every time anyone in the server wanted to say something longer winded, they've sent it to the mailing lists. Because that's what mailing lists are good at. Having two tools with two different strengths makes us stronger than using one tool to do everything. Again, I shy away from proprietary. But it shouldn't be binary, it should be a continuum. Discord fills a slot nothing us is filling for us right now. It has a (in my personal opinion) good TOS and good revenue plan, ones which are mostly kind to the user. If we find something that performs a similar roll to it in the future but is open source, I'm all for killing it for that. I don't think we should turn away a good enough tool because it's not perfect. That slowly kills us and alienates us. The fact that I've seen 3 people show up and then disappear in the last few weeks, two of which explicitly complaining about the avalanche of emails and uncertainty about where they can ask questions, should be proof of that. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Embrace,_extend,_and_extinguish -- nch Prime Minister, Webmastor, NAX Exchange Manager
Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Put the discord on the agora home page
On 6/22/20 3:00 PM, Publius Scribonius Scholasticus via agora-discussion wrote: > On 6/22/20 3:50 PM, James Cook via agora-discussion wrote: >> I can do that without objection > I can save everyone time by saying that I will object. > > -- > > Publius Scribonius Scholasticus, Herald, Referee, Tailor, Pirate > Champion, Badge of the Great Agoran Revival, Badge of the Salted Earth Can I ask what detriment you feel there is to having an extra optional discussion forum? We already have the irc and it doesn't seem to impede normal play... -- nch Prime Minister, Webmastor, NAX Exchange Manager
[ATTN: Maintainers] Re: DIS: [Webmastor] Header Changes
On 6/22/20 1:29 PM, nch via agora-discussion wrote: > I intend to make two changes to the Header and one change to the > homepage repo. I don't anticipate either of them being controversial, > but I'm announcing this intent here just in case someone has significant > objections. > > First, I want to change the header to: > > Agora | Rules | \Help/| \Offices/ | \Archives/ > > The ones with \/ will be drop downs just like the Archives currently are. > > Second, I want to move the coat of arms from the agoranomic repo to the > Header repo. This won't actually change how the homepage looks, but > should let me include the coat of arms as a favicon on each page more > easily. And also will make it easy to update if we get a new flag/symbol. > > -- > nch > Prime Minister, Webmastor, NAX Exchange Manager > > These changes have been implemented and rolled out to the homepage and help pages. If you maintain a repo you need to update its headers. If you use the terminal git tool, you can do so with these steps: from the base directory of the repository, run "git submodule init" then move to the base of the submodule (/whatever/Header). run "git fetch" and then "git merge" If that says something about fastforwarding, skip to the last step. If it says "No current branch" then run "git checkout master" Finally go back to the base directory of your office's repository. Run "git status" there should be a change that says "modified: Header (new commits)". run "git commit -am "update headers"" and finally "git push". Lmk if you have any issues. -- nch Prime Minister, Webmastor, NAX Exchange Manager
DIS: [Webmastor] Header Changes
I intend to make two changes to the Header and one change to the homepage repo. I don't anticipate either of them being controversial, but I'm announcing this intent here just in case someone has significant objections. First, I want to change the header to: Agora | Rules | \Help/| \Offices/ | \Archives/ The ones with \/ will be drop downs just like the Archives currently are. Second, I want to move the coat of arms from the agoranomic repo to the Header repo. This won't actually change how the homepage looks, but should let me include the coat of arms as a favicon on each page more easily. And also will make it easy to update if we get a new flag/symbol. -- nch Prime Minister, Webmastor, NAX Exchange Manager
Re: DIS: [Webmastor] Help pages now online.
On 6/22/20 11:31 AM, nch via agora-discussion wrote: > On 6/22/20 11:22 AM, Kerim Aydin via agora-discussion wrote: >> On 6/22/2020 9:14 AM, nch via agora-discussion wrote: >>> There is now a section of the website with Help for new players. I plan >>> to keep this as something the Webmastor unilaterally maintains since >>> it's supplemental, but would appreciate any feedback. >>> >>> https://agoranomic.org/Help/ >> Good start! First comment is it would be good to separate quickstart - >> technical (setup, fora definitions and mailing lists) from quickstart - >> play (what a "welcome package" is, how to engage, etc). >> > Right now I'm avoiding ephemeral play because I don't want to put up > anything that's likely to change quickly. I may look into having a page > for it tho. > > -- > nch > Prime Minister, Webmastor, NAX Exchange Manager > > I somewhat changed my mind on this and added some very general play tips to the Quickstart page. -- nch Prime Minister, Webmastor, NAX Exchange Manager
Re: DIS: [Webmastor] Help pages now online.
On 6/22/20 11:22 AM, Kerim Aydin via agora-discussion wrote: > > On 6/22/2020 9:14 AM, nch via agora-discussion wrote: >> There is now a section of the website with Help for new players. I plan >> to keep this as something the Webmastor unilaterally maintains since >> it's supplemental, but would appreciate any feedback. >> >> https://agoranomic.org/Help/ > Good start! First comment is it would be good to separate quickstart - > technical (setup, fora definitions and mailing lists) from quickstart - > play (what a "welcome package" is, how to engage, etc). > Right now I'm avoiding ephemeral play because I don't want to put up anything that's likely to change quickly. I may look into having a page for it tho. -- nch Prime Minister, Webmastor, NAX Exchange Manager
DIS: [Webmastor] Help pages now online.
There is now a section of the website with Help for new players. I plan to keep this as something the Webmastor unilaterally maintains since it's supplemental, but would appreciate any feedback. https://agoranomic.org/Help/ -- nch Prime Minister, Webmastor, NAX Exchange Manager
Re: DIS: How to keep up
On 6/21/20 10:25 PM, nch via agora-discussion wrote: > On 6/21/20 10:16 PM, Zyborg Mao via agora-discussion wrote: >> I just signed up and already have 50+ messages. I'm not sure how to deal >> with this. Any hints/tips? > Read everything in agora-official, most things in agora-business (unless > it's about a contract or something you're not involved in), and only the > things in agora-discussion that address you or interest you. If your > email supports it, add tags for the different lists so you can just look > through agora-official and agora-business when you're low on time or > uninterested in the discussions. > > -- > nch > Prime Minister, Webmastor, NAX Exchange Manager > > And by read I really mean more just "look at until you get the gist." Official is full of reports and you should get used to checking them for specific information (like the parts that impact you) but you don't need to understand all of them right away. Business is where people do things. Especially important to read here is the new threads (anything without "Re:" in the title). If the beginning of the thread doesn't seem relevant to you, the rest of it probably isn't either. Discussion is definitely the least important. It's good for context, but since nothing that happens here actually impacts the game directly, you could really ignore all of it and get by just fine. How much you read here is up to you. Ask questions, and if you skip something you can always look at it again later when you have more time and context. -- nch Prime Minister, Webmastor, NAX Exchange Manager
Re: DIS: How to keep up
On 6/21/20 10:16 PM, Zyborg Mao via agora-discussion wrote: > I just signed up and already have 50+ messages. I'm not sure how to deal > with this. Any hints/tips? Read everything in agora-official, most things in agora-business (unless it's about a contract or something you're not involved in), and only the things in agora-discussion that address you or interest you. If your email supports it, add tags for the different lists so you can just look through agora-official and agora-business when you're low on time or uninterested in the discussions. -- nch Prime Minister, Webmastor, NAX Exchange Manager
DIS: Re: BUS: [Contract] Agoran officer monetizes signature
I transfer 3 coins to SEAMSTRESS and specify the text "don't... trust... the dragon..." -- nch Prime Minister, Webmastor, NAX Exchange Manager
DIS: [Proto] Powerful Contracts
Powerful Contracts Power Target is a player switch tracked by the Notary with the potential values None (the default), and any Contract. A player CAN flip eir Power Target (empower) by announcement once a week. If their is a single contract that is the value of at least 5 Power Target switches and is the target of the most Power Target switches, it is Empowered. Any player CAN create a Victory Card in the possession of the Empowered contract by announcement. This CANNOT be done if it has already been done this week. -- nch Prime Minister, Webmastor, NAX Exchange Manager
DIS: Re: BUS: CFJ 3853 Judged True
On 6/21/20 4:11 PM, nch via agora-business wrote: > On 6/20/20 9:37 AM, nch via agora-business wrote: >> === CFJ 3853 === >> >> Within the past week, Jason committed the crime of Uncertain >> Certification. >> >> == >> >> I judge CFJ 3853 TRUE. > I earn a blue ribbon for judging CFJ 3853. > > -- > nch > Prime Minister, Webmastor, NAX Exchange Manager > > Ooops no I don't. I earn blue glitter for judging CFJ 3853. -- nch Prime Minister, Webmastor, NAX Exchange Manager
Re: [Poll] A chat client for Agora (was Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Leaving or something like that)
On 6/21/20 3:00 PM, omd via agora-discussion wrote: > So we could set up a Discord community and then bridge it with IRC. > This can sometimes have awkward results [1], but from what I've heard > it basically works. I've been on discords that have IRC/Discord bridges, and they seem perfectly serviceable. I don't see any downside either. -- nch Prime Minister, Webmastor, NAX Exchange Manager
DIS: Re: BUS: Action Is better than words
On 6/20/20 8:47 PM, Rebecca via agora-business wrote: > Therefore, please join this discord server I made > https://discord.gg/UGxm3v > > Tell me what channels you want all up in there and stuff > -- > From R. Lee Just wanted to point out since this isn't obvious on the list: 6 of us joined last night and there's been a decent amount of chatter, some of which has actually been productive and some of which has just been fun in a way the lists aren't conductive towards. I don't think it's been in any way detrimental to the lists. -- nch Prime Minister, Webmastor, NAX Exchange Manager
Re: DIS: A logo for Agora
On 6/20/20 6:10 PM, Reuben Staley via agora-discussion wrote: > Due to a multitude of factors, I've noticed a lot of sentiment to "rebrand" > a bit. Along with this, I would like to raise the discussion of potentially > creating a new logo of sorts for Agora. The coat-of-arms has stood as our > de-facto logo for years (on the website as well as in other places) but its > grays and browns are admittedly rather boring. I think a new logo could do > a lot for the way we're seen. Thoughts? > > -- > Trigon > > currently on a phone This could be a fun tournament some time. -- nch Prime Minister, Webmastor, NAX Exchange Manager
Re: DIS: Fora and Accessibility
On 6/20/20 5:56 PM, Reuben Staley wrote: > I do, however, think setting up a chat client for discussion that runs > alongside a-d would be useful for many things, such as private > discussion of alliances, bugfixing on proposals and contacts with more > immediate feedback, and, rather importantly, introducing new players > to the rules in a less-formal environment. This is my thinking. I think Agora Discussion actually covers two different things: On-Stage Discussion where someone is addressing everyone or writing something lengthy worth of separate consideration, and off-stage discussion where what's being said is clarification, only directed at one person, or otherwise intended to be inconsequential to the overall flow of the game. It makes sense to put Off-Stage discussion on a platform that is better suited for it and leave the On-Stage things here. -- nch Prime Minister, Webmastor, NAX Exchange Manager
Re: DIS: Fora and Accessibility
On 6/20/20 5:47 PM, Publius Scribonius Scholasticus wrote: > I think there are valid criticisms of how we use email, and we could adopt > guidelines to change that, but if we started to use Discord or anything other > than IRC or email for significant amounts of discussion, I think I’d leave > because those platforms lend themselves to less verbose and thoughtful > discussion and I find them a pain to use. So, keep in mind that attracting > new players isn’t necessarily worth alienating those of us who are already > here. Totally agreed on not wanting to alienate anyone (thus the poll), and on the limitations of chat for long-form (though I don't understand how IRC isn't outright worse than Discord for that...). But we can also regulate how we use those platforms. I personally would use it to ask and answer short questions. If I wanted to say something to every player, or something that involves multiple paragraphs, I would still want to use email. -- nch Prime Minister, Webmastor, NAX Exchange Manager
Re: DIS: Fora and Accessibility
On 6/20/20 5:23 PM, nch via agora-discussion wrote: > Moving this here because multiple subtopics in one thread was explicitly > mentioned as an accessibility problem in the increasing off-topic > "Leaving..." thread. > > First, I want to simply ask: Do you use IRC, and how often? Do you use > Discord, and how often? > > Reducing the chatter in a-d by moving things to a chat based client > seems like it'd have a lot of readability benefits. > > -- > nch > Prime Minister, Webmastor, NAX Exchange Manager > > Sorry Trigon, I received your thread basically asking the same thing at the same time I sent this one. But I'm gonna pull PM and Webmastor privilege and respond in my thread :p I haven't used IRC in years, and I use Discord daily. I don't mind a proprietary platform as long as we aren't locked to it, and if we're just moving discussion there then we aren't. The big advantage is that it has the most user share right now, which makes it a real accessibility tool. If someone has to install and use a tool they've never used before to ask basic questions, that doesn't add much usability. The one thing Discord is missing that might sway me to a platform that has it: The ability for anyone to export the entirety of the chat log since the beginning. That'd make it easier to migrate if and when discord gets replaced with The Next Big Thing. I don't know if any alternatives have that either though. -- nch Prime Minister, Webmastor, NAX Exchange Manager
DIS: Fora and Accessibility
Moving this here because multiple subtopics in one thread was explicitly mentioned as an accessibility problem in the increasing off-topic "Leaving..." thread. First, I want to simply ask: Do you use IRC, and how often? Do you use Discord, and how often? Reducing the chatter in a-d by moving things to a chat based client seems like it'd have a lot of readability benefits. -- nch Prime Minister, Webmastor, NAX Exchange Manager
Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Leaving or something like that
On 6/20/20 5:07 PM, Reuben Staley wrote: > Alternatively, we do have an IRC chat which is already an official > forum. Mayhaps if the Webmastor promoted this service, it could > encourage us to congregate there to answer new players' questions. > > -- > Trigon > > (I haven't figured out my signature on mobile yet.) I'm pretty against the IRC tbh. It's less accessible than Discord and if you're not connected constantly you don't get to see previous messages. Obviously there's ways around this, but in the modern internet they're pretty arcane. I use discord daily across multiple devices for great success. If I was going to advocate for a chat client, it'd be that. -- nch Prime Minister, Webmastor, NAX Exchange Manager
Archival Continuity and Discussion Accessibility (was Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Leaving or something like that)
On 6/20/20 4:55 PM, Kerim Aydin via agora-discussion wrote: > > On 6/20/2020 2:46 PM, nch via agora-discussion wrote: >> To be clear, I'd never suggest moving gameplay to a chat client. Discord >> did not exist 27 years ago, and it's not that likely to exist in 27 >> years. Agora needs something with the continuity of email. This would >> only be discussion in the same way the IRC is/was (does anyone still use >> it?). > I think the following things should stay document-based (e.g. keyed to > timestamped "historical" documents): > > - Promotor results, Assessor Results, CFJ results, Herald's Scroll. > - maybe ADoP. > > I don't think we need continuity/historicity on every card transfer, and > the only reason for some of the other reports to have timestamped > documents (e.g. Treasuror) is to have self-ratified rollback points. > > -G. > Would we expect CFJs to then include every reference in their text rather than links? What about particularly complex and notable action sequences? Scams tend to involve doing a lot of actions that are inconsequential individually. Also: Text of contracts, pledges, promises... The line between simple forgettable gameplay actions and notable reportable events can be pretty blurry sometimes. -- nch Prime Minister, Webmastor, NAX Exchange Manager
Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Leaving or something like that
On 6/20/20 4:42 PM, Stefan Fjellander wrote: > I happen to run an somewhat nomiclike conlang discord server, where we > have a few channels corresponding to agora discussion, which are just > as any else, and then in the channels corresponding to agora business > you have to format messages a certain way and then, once the bill > [we're not dealing with non-bill things] passes or fails it is > automatically archived in a "showcase" channel. (Things corresponding > to agora official just go in a channel where only our equivalent of > office holders can send messages, but where all can read.) > > I know changing fora can be hard (see https://xkcd.com/1782/), and > that discord is a specific company as opposed to the email concept > which is (if i'm not too wrong) very openaccess, which both are > downsides tho, so i think a thing of this calibre should be carefully > discussed and thought through by all active members. > > Bögtil To be clear, I'd never suggest moving gameplay to a chat client. Discord did not exist 27 years ago, and it's not that likely to exist in 27 years. Agora needs something with the continuity of email. This would only be discussion in the same way the IRC is/was (does anyone still use it?). -- nch Prime Minister, Webmastor, NAX Exchange Manager
Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Leaving or something like that
On 6/20/20 4:10 PM, Stefan Fjellander via agora-discussion wrote: > (I rejoined discussions) >> Sorry to see you going, but always happy to have you back if you choose. >> Can I ask what you found most difficult/frustrating? >> Difficult > I must admit I don't really know how to vote, nor how CFJs work, and the > discussion in general was over my head 90% of the time. I could probably > have caught up in a few months? But that leads to my next point: >> Frustrating > So Many Emails So Little Time So Little Knowledge. Getting 20 to 50 emails > overnight, of which I understood very few, is a hassle to read, so I got in > the habit of just instantly deleting them without reading, which doesn't > help me learn more nor makes me interact. (Email lists in general aren't > really a thing I do well? I might have survived longer on say a Discord > group or something, where there's lower barriers to asking stupider > questions, but that has other downsides, and is just me having my personal > issues.) Speaking of which, I've been thinking of suggesting a Discord. I know the downside to chat systems is that things aren't recorded in a way that can be referenced long term, but it would certainly help people overcome barriers like this one and in general ask quick clarifying questions. > > Thus, I was in the position of "I get 20-50 emails overnight, of which I > instantly delete 99%, from a community which I almost never interact with > and which I don't even understand the basics of", and it's unfair both to > my time and to y'all who are legit invested in this to keep on doing that. > > -- > Bögtil As G. mentioned, there's a good portion of emails I don't read. I read everything in a-o and a-b, but when it comes to a-d I often skim once I've gotten the gist of the conversation. If it is important it'll pop up in a-b and I'll go back and read the thread. Of course, skimming is easier with more experience so I don't know how helpful this really is as starter advice. -- nch Prime Minister, Webmastor, NAX Exchange Manager
DIS: Re: BUS: Leaving
On 6/20/20 2:58 PM, Stefan Fjellander via agora-business wrote: > I, Bögtil, hereby deregisters, as via rule 869/46. > It's been nice knowing y'all, but I don't really have time for this nor the > energy (also I understand very little so each email required a lot of > effort) right now. I might rejoin later? Who knows, but for now i have > deregistered and unsubscribed from the mailing lists (all but this one, > from which I'll unsubscribe tomorrow). Bögtil stefan.fjellan...@gmail.com Sorry to see you going, but always happy to have you back if you choose. Can I ask what you found most difficult/frustrating? -- nch Prime Minister, Webmastor, NAX Exchange Manager
DIS: Re: BUS: CFJ 3853 Judged True
On 6/20/20 9:37 AM, nch via agora-business wrote: > Also note a gratuitous argument [4] submitted at the time the CFJ was > called which uses similar reasoning to arrive at a similar conclusion. This is tacked on at the end because I actually didn't read this gratuitous until I had written the rest of the ruling, and couldn't find a way to really integrate its arguments without just saying "same". -- nch Prime Minister, Webmastor, NAX Exchange Manager
Re: DIS: Re: BUS: [Proposal] Ready Proposals
On 6/20/20 7:14 AM, Jason Cobb via agora-discussion wrote: > On 6/20/20 12:23 AM, nch via agora-discussion wrote: >> On 6/19/20 11:20 PM, nch via agora-discussion wrote: >>> You wrote a proposal designed specifically to only be used for narrow >>> patches and then immediately claimed authority to use it because, in >>> your arguments, literally any rule text impacts the rulekeepor and >>> therefore the rulekeepor can certify any patch. That feels like an abuse >>> of that sort of power to me. (This is not indicative of my ruling on the >>> cfj, I will review it more thoroughly.) >> Shoot I'm sorry, Jason did that not you. I'm tired. >> > I'm sorry, and I don't really plan to make a habit of doing it. I did it > mostly because I thought it was actually an important fix and I wanted > to see if my arguments on the interpretation of the rule would be accepted. > > -- > Jason Cobb > It's a natural consequence of the rule. Debatable conditions punished by a crime is always going to lead to something like this. -- nch Prime Minister, Webmastor, NAX Exchange Manager
