DIS: Re: BUS: Mad Engineer weekly random rule selection

[ais523 via agora-discussion]

On Mon, 2022-06-13 at 02:07 +0200, nethack4.org dicebot via agora-
business wrote:
> Assignment of dice rolls to rules:
> 139:R2658;

Based on CFJ outcomes, this might not be a valid roll. I'll try another
one later this week if this one failed.

-- 
ais523
Mad Engineer

DIS: Re: BUS: Mad Engineer weekly random rule selection

[Kerim Aydin via agora-discussion]

On 6/6/2022 4:41 PM, ais523 via agora-business wrote:
> On Tue, 2022-06-07 at 01:40 +0200, nethack4.org dicebot via agora-
> business wrote:
>> The dice roll was: 125
>> This is R2631, Charities.
> 
> For reference:
> {{{
>Donation Level is a natural switch for contracts, tracked by the
>Notary, with a default of 0 and a maximum of 25. A contract with
>nonzero donation level is called a Charity.
>
>The Notary CAN flip a contract's donation level to a non-default
>value with 3 Agoran consent. This SHOULD only be done if the
>contract's provisions ensure that its funds received from Agora
>will be used solely for the betterment of Agora. Any player CAN
>flip a contract's donation level to 0 with Agoran consent.
>
>Whenever a payday occurs, half of each charity's coin holdings
>(rounded down) are destroyed, and then each charity gains a number
>of boatloads of coins equal to its donation level.
> }}}
> 
> Any suggestions?
> 

   Whenever a payday occurs, half of each charity's device holdings
   (rounded down) are destroyed, and then each charity gains a number
   of boatloads of devices equal to its donation level.

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Mad Engineer weekly random rule selection

[secretsnail9 via agora-discussion]

"After an election is initiated and until
  nominations close, any player CAN become a Device by
  announcement."

or 

"If POSSIBLE per the following paragraph, end the Device
 immediately."

--
secretsnail

DIS: Re: BUS: Mad Engineer weekly random rule selection

[ais523 via agora-discussion]

On Wed, 2022-06-01 at 18:20 +0200, nethack4.org dicebot via agora-
business wrote:
> The dice roll was: 48
> This is R2154, Election Procedure.

For reference:
{{{
   When an election is initiated, it enters the nomination period,
   which lasts for 4 days. After an election is initiated and until
   nominations close, any player CAN become a candidate by
   announcement. A candidate ceases to be a candidate if e ceases to
   be a player during the election or if holding the office would
   make em Overpowered. During the nomination period, a candidate CAN
   cease to be a candidate by announcement if there is at least one
   other candidate.
   
   An election whose nomination period is complete is contested if it
   has two or more candidates, and uncontested otherwise. Nominations
   close at the end of the poll's voting period or when the election
   is ended, whichever comes first.
   
   After the nomination period ends, the ADoP (or, if the office is
   the ADoP, the Assessor) CAN and, in a timely fashion, SHALL:
   
   1) If the election is contested, initiate an Agoran decision to
  select the winner of the election (the poll). For this
  decision, the Vote Collector is the ADoP (or, if the office is
  the ADoP, the Assessor), the valid options are the candidates
  for that election (including those who become candidates after
  its initiation), and the voting method is instant runoff. When
  the poll is resolved, its outcome, if a player, wins the
  election. If the outcome is not a player, the election ends
  with no winner.
   
   2) If POSSIBLE per the following paragraph, end the election
  immediately.
   
   If at any point an uncontested election has a single candidate,
   then any player CAN by announcement declare em the winner of the
   election, thereby causing em to win the election. If at any point
   an uncontested election has no candidates, then any player CAN
   declare the election ended with no winner by announcement.
  
   When a player wins an election, e is installed into the associated
   office and the election ends.
}}}

Any suggestions?

-- 
ais523
Mad Engineer

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Mad Engineer weekly random rule selection

[Kerim Aydin via agora-discussion]

On 5/22/2022 6:41 PM, ais523 via agora-discussion wrote:
> On Mon, 2022-05-23 at 03:38 +0200, nethack4.org dicebot via agora-
> business wrote:
>>
>> The dice roll was: 80
>> This is R2481, Festival Restrictions.
> 
> For reference:
> {{{
>   While Agora's Festivity is nonzero, the following apply:
>   
>   1. Rules to the contrary notwithstanding, non-Festive players
>  CANNOT support/be a supporter for tabled action intents;
>   
>   2. Quorum for Agoran Decisions is equal to half the number of
>  Festive players, rounded up;
>   
>   3. Each Festive player has the maximum possible voting strength.
>  All other players have the minimum possible voting strength.
>   
>   ~>4. Non-Festive players CANNOT cause proposals to become
>Pended.<~
>   
>   While Agora's Festivity is zero, the paragraphs above have no
>   effect and are ignored.
> }}}

"While Agora's Device is zero, the paragraphs above have no
effect and are ignored" could cascade in some fun ways, though I haven't
thought through exactly what would be ignored...

DIS: Re: BUS: Mad Engineer weekly random rule selection

[ais523 via agora-discussion]

On Mon, 2022-05-23 at 03:38 +0200, nethack4.org dicebot via agora-
business wrote:
> 
> The dice roll was: 80
> This is R2481, Festival Restrictions.

For reference:
{{{
  While Agora's Festivity is nonzero, the following apply:
  
  1. Rules to the contrary notwithstanding, non-Festive players
 CANNOT support/be a supporter for tabled action intents;
  
  2. Quorum for Agoran Decisions is equal to half the number of
 Festive players, rounded up;
  
  3. Each Festive player has the maximum possible voting strength.
 All other players have the minimum possible voting strength.
  
  ~>4. Non-Festive players CANNOT cause proposals to become
   Pended.<~
  
  While Agora's Festivity is zero, the paragraphs above have no
  effect and are ignored.
}}}

This one may well lead to a debate about "what is a sentence?". There's
definitely a sentence at the end, but I'm not sure where the first
sentence in the rule ends.

Incidentally, it crosses my mind that the restriction on proposals
becoming pended should probably survive the winds dying down, so I
guess this is feedback on Murphy's proposal.

-- 
ais523
Mad Engineer

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Mad Engineer weekly random rule selection

[juan via agora-discussion]

On May 15, 2022 9:30:46 PM GMT-03:00, ais523 via agora-discussion 
 wrote:
>On Mon, 2022-05-16 at 02:29 +0200, nethack4.org dicebot via agora-
>business wrote:
>> The dice roll was: 112
>> This is R2606, Proposal Classes.
>
>For reference:
>{{{
>   Proposals created since the enactment of this rule have a secured
>   untracked Class switch with possible values ordinary (the default)
>   and democratic.
>   
>   When a proposal with an adoption index greater than or equal to
>   3.0 is created, its class becomes democratic.
>   
>   Any player CAN, with 2 Agoran consent, flip an ordinary proposal's
>   class to democratic, provided that it is in the Proposal Pool or
>   that there is an referendum on it whose voting period has not yet
>   ended.
>}}}
>
>Any suggestions?
>
The whole rule, replacing “proposal” with “device”.
-- 
juan

DIS: Re: BUS: Mad Engineer weekly random rule selection

[ais523 via agora-discussion]

On Mon, 2022-05-16 at 02:29 +0200, nethack4.org dicebot via agora-
business wrote:
> The dice roll was: 112
> This is R2606, Proposal Classes.

For reference:
{{{
   Proposals created since the enactment of this rule have a secured
   untracked Class switch with possible values ordinary (the default)
   and democratic.
   
   When a proposal with an adoption index greater than or equal to
   3.0 is created, its class becomes democratic.
   
   Any player CAN, with 2 Agoran consent, flip an ordinary proposal's
   class to democratic, provided that it is in the Proposal Pool or
   that there is an referendum on it whose voting period has not yet
   ended.
}}}

Any suggestions?

-- 
ais523
Mad Engineer

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Mad Engineer weekly random rule selection

[juan via agora-discussion]

“When a Rule specifies that a random Device be made, then the
Device shall be made using whatever probability distribution among
the possible outcomes the Rule specifies, defaulting to a uniform
probability distribution.”


On May 9, 2022 1:37:26 AM GMT-03:00, ais523 via agora-discussion 
 wrote:
>On Mon, 2022-05-09 at 06:35 +0200, nethack4.org dicebot via agora-
>business wrote:
>> The dice roll was: 88
>> This is R2505, Random Choices.
>
>For reference:
>{{{
>   When a Rule specifies that a random choice be made, then the
>   choice shall be made using whatever probability distribution among
>   the possible outcomes the Rule specifies, defaulting to a uniform
>   probability distribution.
>   
>   The choice can be made using any physical or computational process
>   whose probability distribution among the possible outcomes is
>   reasonably close to that required by the Rules, and for which the
>   final choice is not trivially predictable by the selecting person
>   in advance. The selecting person SHOULD make the selection method
>   public, and SHOULD use a method for which the final probability
>   distribution can be readily confirmed.
>}}}
>
>We have three sentences to choose from. Any suggestions?
>

-- 
juan

DIS: Re: BUS: Mad Engineer weekly random rule selection

[ais523 via agora-discussion]

On Mon, 2022-05-09 at 06:35 +0200, nethack4.org dicebot via agora-
business wrote:
> The dice roll was: 88
> This is R2505, Random Choices.

For reference:
{{{
   When a Rule specifies that a random choice be made, then the
   choice shall be made using whatever probability distribution among
   the possible outcomes the Rule specifies, defaulting to a uniform
   probability distribution.
   
   The choice can be made using any physical or computational process
   whose probability distribution among the possible outcomes is
   reasonably close to that required by the Rules, and for which the
   final choice is not trivially predictable by the selecting person
   in advance. The selecting person SHOULD make the selection method
   public, and SHOULD use a method for which the final probability
   distribution can be readily confirmed.
}}}

We have three sentences to choose from. Any suggestions?

-- 
ais523
Mad Engineer

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Mad Engineer weekly random rule selection

[Jason Cobb via agora-discussion]

On 5/1/22 23:09, ais523 via agora-discussion wrote:
> Any suggestions? I'm partial to changing "As this title..." to "As this
> Device...", but maybe you have a better idea.


FOR

-- 
Jason Cobb

Assessor, Rulekeepor, S​tonemason

DIS: Re: BUS: Mad Engineer weekly random rule selection

[ais523 via agora-discussion]

On Mon, 2022-05-02 at 05:01 +0200, nethack4.org dicebot via agora-
business wrote:
> The dice roll was: 57
> This is R2231, Order of the Hero of Agora Nomic.

Huh, I'd forgotten about that rule.

For reference:
{{{
   Heroic titles are Agora's premier patent titles of distinction,
   and CAN be awarded to persons for meritorious service only by a
   proposal of power 3 or greater, which SHOULD explain why those
   persons are qualified. Bearers of heroic titles (Heroes)
   constitute the Order of the Hero of Agora Nomic.
   
   The Heroic titles in decreasing precedence are:
   
   Grand Hero of Agora Nomic (GHAN) -- This title may be awarded to
   any person obviously and directly responsible for the existence of
   Agora and/or Nomic in general. As this title is the highest honour
   that Agora may bestow, a Bearer of this title OUGHT to be treated
   right good forever.
   
   Hero of Agora Nomic (HAN) -- This title may be awarded to any
   person for outstanding meritorious service to Agora above and
   beyond the call of duty.
}}}

Any suggestions? I'm partial to changing "As this title..." to "As this
Device...", but maybe you have a better idea.

-- 
ais523
Mad Engineer

DIS: Re: BUS: Mad Engineer weekly random rule selection

[ais523 via agora-discussion]

On Mon, 2022-04-25 at 02:23 +0200, nethack4.org dicebot via agora-
business wrote:
> The dice roll was: 13
> This is R693, Agoran Decisions.

For reference:
{{{
  When the rules call for an Agoran decision to be made, the
  decision-making process takes place in the following three
  stages, each described elsewhere:
  
  1. Initiation of the decision.
  
  2. Voting of the people.
  
  3. Resolution of the decision.
}}}

I remember this one being awkward the last time it came up, under a
previous iteration of this sort of rule.

FWIW, the obvious suggestion here is s/decision/Device/g, so I may as
well mention that one myself. There may be a debate about what exactly
a sentence is, though.

Any other suggestions?

-- 
ais523
Mad Engineer

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Mad Engineer weekly random rule selection

[secretsnail9 via agora-discussion]

On Sun, Apr 17, 2022 at 7:44 PM ais523 via agora-discussion <
agora-discussion@agoranomic.org> wrote:

> On Mon, 2022-04-18 at 02:41 +0200, nethack4.org dicebot via agora-
> business wrote:
> > The dice roll was: 144
> > This is R2656, Points.
>
> For reference:
> {{{
>A player's Score, indicated in Points, is an integer player switch
>defaulting to 0, tracked by the Herald.
>
>Upon a correct announcement from a player that one or more players
>have a score of 100+ points, all players meeting this condition
>win the game.  If a least one player wins the game via such an
>announcement, all players' scores are set to their default.
> }}}
>
> Not much to work with this week. Any suggestions?
>

"Upon a correct announcement from a player that one or more players
   have a score of 100+ points, all players meeting this condition
   win the device."

" If a least one player wins the game via such an
   announcement, all players' devices are set to their default."

--
secretsnail

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Mad Engineer weekly random rule selection

[Madrid via agora-discussion]

Oh, this is still a thing?

On Mon, Apr 18, 2022 at 2:44 AM ais523 via agora-discussion <
agora-discussion@agoranomic.org> wrote:

> On Mon, 2022-04-18 at 02:41 +0200, nethack4.org dicebot via agora-
> business wrote:
> > The dice roll was: 144
> > This is R2656, Points.
>
> For reference:
> {{{
>A player's Score, indicated in Points, is an integer player switch
>defaulting to 0, tracked by the Herald.
>
>Upon a correct announcement from a player that one or more players
>have a score of 100+ points, all players meeting this condition
>win the game.  If a least one player wins the game via such an
>announcement, all players' scores are set to their default.
> }}}
>
> Not much to work with this week. Any suggestions?
>
> --
> ais523
> Mad Enigneer
>
>

DIS: Re: BUS: Mad Engineer weekly random rule selection

[ais523 via agora-discussion]

On Mon, 2022-04-18 at 02:41 +0200, nethack4.org dicebot via agora-
business wrote:
> The dice roll was: 144
> This is R2656, Points.

For reference:
{{{
   A player's Score, indicated in Points, is an integer player switch
   defaulting to 0, tracked by the Herald.
   
   Upon a correct announcement from a player that one or more players
   have a score of 100+ points, all players meeting this condition
   win the game.  If a least one player wins the game via such an
   announcement, all players' scores are set to their default.
}}}

Not much to work with this week. Any suggestions?

-- 
ais523
Mad Enigneer

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Mad Engineer weekly random rule selection

[juan via agora-discussion]

On 2022-04-11 15:17, Kerim Aydin via agora-discussion wrote:
> 
> On 4/11/2022 3:00 PM, ais523 via agora-discussion wrote:
> > On Mon, 2022-04-11 at 23:59 +0200, nethack4.org dicebot via agora-
> > business wrote:
> >> The dice roll was: 87
> >> This is R2499, Welcome Packages.
> > 
> > For reference:
> > {{{
> >   A Welcome Package is a set of assets containing:
> >   
> > * 10 boatloads of coins~>, AND<~
> >   ~>* 1 of each type of card defined in the rules.<~
> >   
> >   Any player CAN grant a Welcome Package to any player if the
> >   grantee has neither received one since e last registered nor in
> >   the last 30 days.
> > }}}
> > 
> > Any suggestions?
> > 
> 
> Well let's start handing out devices wcgw:
> 
> "Any player CAN grant a Welcome Device to any player..."

Or, to a similar effect, 

{
A Welcome Package is a set of assets containing:

  * 10 boatloads of Devices
}

-- 
juan

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Mad Engineer weekly random rule selection

[Kerim Aydin via agora-discussion]

On 4/11/2022 3:17 PM, Kerim Aydin wrote:
> On 4/11/2022 3:00 PM, ais523 via agora-discussion wrote:
>> On Mon, 2022-04-11 at 23:59 +0200, nethack4.org dicebot via agora-
>> business wrote:
>>> The dice roll was: 87
>>> This is R2499, Welcome Packages.
>>
>> For reference:
>> {{{
>>   A Welcome Package is a set of assets containing:
>>   
>> * 10 boatloads of coins~>, AND<~
>>   ~>* 1 of each type of card defined in the rules.<~
>>   
>>   Any player CAN grant a Welcome Package to any player if the
>>   grantee has neither received one since e last registered nor in
>>   the last 30 days.
>> }}}

But - er I hate to say this - that welcome package rule seems to be
missing a "by announcement".

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Mad Engineer weekly random rule selection

[Kerim Aydin via agora-discussion]

On 4/11/2022 3:00 PM, ais523 via agora-discussion wrote:
> On Mon, 2022-04-11 at 23:59 +0200, nethack4.org dicebot via agora-
> business wrote:
>> The dice roll was: 87
>> This is R2499, Welcome Packages.
> 
> For reference:
> {{{
>   A Welcome Package is a set of assets containing:
>   
> * 10 boatloads of coins~>, AND<~
>   ~>* 1 of each type of card defined in the rules.<~
>   
>   Any player CAN grant a Welcome Package to any player if the
>   grantee has neither received one since e last registered nor in
>   the last 30 days.
> }}}
> 
> Any suggestions?
> 

Well let's start handing out devices wcgw:

"Any player CAN grant a Welcome Device to any player..."

DIS: Re: BUS: Mad Engineer weekly random rule selection

[ais523 via agora-discussion]

On Mon, 2022-04-11 at 23:59 +0200, nethack4.org dicebot via agora-
business wrote:
> The dice roll was: 87
> This is R2499, Welcome Packages.

For reference:
{{{
  A Welcome Package is a set of assets containing:
  
* 10 boatloads of coins~>, AND<~
  ~>* 1 of each type of card defined in the rules.<~
  
  Any player CAN grant a Welcome Package to any player if the
  grantee has neither received one since e last registered nor in
  the last 30 days.
}}}

Any suggestions?

-- 
ais523
Mad Scientist

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Mad Engineer weekly random rule selection

[juan via agora-discussion]

On 2022-04-05 23:27, ais523 via agora-discussion wrote:
> Any suggestions? There are a lot of sentences to choose from!

{
If POSSIBLE per the following paragraph, end the Device immediately.
}

Or, more dangerously,
{
If POSSIBLE per the following Device, end the election immediately.
}

-- 
juan

DIS: Re: BUS: Mad Engineer weekly random rule selection

[ais523 via agora-discussion]

On Wed, 2022-04-06 at 00:25 +0200, nethack4.org dicebot via agora-
business wrote:
> This is an automated selection of a random rule from Agora's ruleset,
> as part of the Mad Engineer's weekly duties.
> Randomizing from 153 rules.

[Thanks to Jason for letting me (and the dicebot) know where to find
the latest FLR.]

> The dice roll was: 48
> This is R2154, Election Procedure.

For reference:
{{{
   When an election is initiated, it enters the nomination period,
   which lasts for 4 days. After an election is initiated and until
   nominations close, any player CAN become a candidate by
   announcement. A candidate ceases to be a candidate if e ceases to
   be a player during the election or if holding the office would
   make em Overpowered. During the nomination period, a candidate CAN
   cease to be a candidate by announcement if there is at least one
   other candidate.
   
   An election whose nomination period is complete is contested if it
   has two or more candidates, and uncontested otherwise. Nominations
   close at the end of the poll's voting period or when the election
   is ended, whichever comes first.
   
   After the nomination period ends, the ADoP (or, if the office is
   the ADoP, the Assessor) CAN and, in a timely fashion, SHALL:
   
   1) If the election is contested, initiate an Agoran decision to
  select the winner of the election (the poll). For this
  decision, the Vote Collector is the ADoP (or, if the office is
  the ADoP, the Assessor), the valid options are the candidates
  for that election (including those who become candidates after
  its initiation), and the voting method is instant runoff. When
  the poll is resolved, its outcome, if a player, wins the
  election. If the outcome is not a player, the election ends
  with no winner.
   
   2) If POSSIBLE per the following paragraph, end the election
  immediately.
   
   If at any point an uncontested election has a single candidate,
   then any player CAN by announcement declare em the winner of the
   election, thereby causing em to win the election. If at any point
   an uncontested election has no candidates, then any player CAN
   declare the election ended with no winner by announcement.
   
   When a player wins an election, e is installed into the associated
   office and the election ends.
}}}

Any suggestions? There are a lot of sentences to choose from!

-- 
ais523
Mad Engineer

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Mad Engineer weekly random rule selection

[Jason Cobb via agora-discussion]

On 4/5/22 18:10, ais523 via agora-discussion wrote:
> On Tue, 2022-04-05 at 18:07 -0400, Jason Cobb via agora-discussion
> wrote:
>> On 4/5/22 18:03, ais523 via agora-business wrote:
>>> On Wed, 2022-04-06 at 00:00 +0200, nethack4.org dicebot via agora-
>>> business wrote:
 This is an automated selection of a random rule from Agora's
 ruleset, as part of the Mad Engineer's weekly duties.
 Randomizing from 145 rules.
>>> This roll wasn't valid to be part of the weekly duties – if I've
>>> counted correctly, there are currently 147 rules, so the
>>> probabilities were wrong.
>>>
>>> I'll do it manually in a couple of days if the ruleset still hasn't
>>> been updated by then (allowing for the fact that there are two
>>> rules with unassigned numbers, Stamps and Birds).
>>>
>> The ruleset has been updated since those proposals were assessed.
>>
>> Stamps is 2659, Birds is 2660-2665, and there are 153 rules as of the
>> latest ruleset.
> Where is the updated ruleset available? The dicebot is pulling from 
> https://agoranomic.org/ruleset/flr.txt which doesn't seem to have been
> updated yet.
>
> (My informal count forgot that Birds was multiple rules.)
>

That url is always the latest published FLR.
https://agoranomic.org/ruleset/flr-fresh.txt is the FLR as it would have
been for the latest published SLR (with an extra disclaimer).

-- 
Jason Cobb

Assessor, Rulekeepor, S​tonemason

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Mad Engineer weekly random rule selection

[ais523 via agora-discussion]

On Tue, 2022-04-05 at 18:07 -0400, Jason Cobb via agora-discussion
wrote:
> On 4/5/22 18:03, ais523 via agora-business wrote:
> > On Wed, 2022-04-06 at 00:00 +0200, nethack4.org dicebot via agora-
> > business wrote:
> > > This is an automated selection of a random rule from Agora's
> > > ruleset, as part of the Mad Engineer's weekly duties.
> > > Randomizing from 145 rules.
> > This roll wasn't valid to be part of the weekly duties – if I've
> > counted correctly, there are currently 147 rules, so the
> > probabilities were wrong.
> > 
> > I'll do it manually in a couple of days if the ruleset still hasn't
> > been updated by then (allowing for the fact that there are two
> > rules with unassigned numbers, Stamps and Birds).
> > 
> 
> The ruleset has been updated since those proposals were assessed.
> 
> Stamps is 2659, Birds is 2660-2665, and there are 153 rules as of the
> latest ruleset.

Where is the updated ruleset available? The dicebot is pulling from 
https://agoranomic.org/ruleset/flr.txt which doesn't seem to have been
updated yet.

(My informal count forgot that Birds was multiple rules.)

-- 
ais523

DIS: Re: BUS: Mad Engineer weekly random rule selection

[Jason Cobb via agora-discussion]

On 4/5/22 18:03, ais523 via agora-business wrote:
> On Wed, 2022-04-06 at 00:00 +0200, nethack4.org dicebot via agora-
> business wrote:
>> This is an automated selection of a random rule from Agora's ruleset,
>> as part of the Mad Engineer's weekly duties.
>> Randomizing from 145 rules.
> This roll wasn't valid to be part of the weekly duties – if I've
> counted correctly, there are currently 147 rules, so the probabilities
> were wrong.
>
> I'll do it manually in a couple of days if the ruleset still hasn't
> been updated by then (allowing for the fact that there are two rules
> with unassigned numbers, Stamps and Birds).
>

The ruleset has been updated since those proposals were assessed.

Stamps is 2659, Birds is 2660-2665, and there are 153 rules as of the
latest ruleset.

-- 
Jason Cobb

Assessor, Rulekeepor, S​tonemason

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Mad Engineer weekly random rule selection

[juan via agora-discussion]

On 2022-03-28 01:07, ais523 via agora-discussion wrote:
> Another duplicate. For reference, again:
> {{{
>The Treasuror CAN conduct an auction (a "victory auction") if no
>victory auction is ongoing.  The Treasuror MUST do so at least
>once a month, and SHOULD do so at least twice each month.
>
>A victory auction includes the following lots:
>
>* one new Win Card.
>
>* all of any single type of card or product, currently owned by
>  the Lost and Found Department, if any.
>
>The currency of a victory auction is coins (minimum bid 1).
> }}}
> 
> Any suggestions?

The first sentence. Replace “Treasuror”.

-- 
juan

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Mad Engineer weekly random rule selection

[secretsnail9 via agora-discussion]

On Sun, Mar 27, 2022 at 7:08 PM ais523 via agora-discussion <
agora-discussion@agoranomic.org> wrote:

> On Mon, 2022-03-28 at 02:05 +0200, nethack4.org dicebot via agora-
> business wrote:
> > The dice roll was: 124
> > This is R2629, Victory Auctions.
>
> Another duplicate. For reference, again:
> {{{
>The Treasuror CAN conduct an auction (a "victory auction") if no
>victory auction is ongoing.  The Treasuror MUST do so at least
>once a month, and SHOULD do so at least twice each month.
>
>A victory auction includes the following lots:
>
>* one new Win Card.
>
>* all of any single type of card or product, currently owned by
>  the Lost and Found Department, if any.
>
>The currency of a victory auction is coins (minimum bid 1).
> }}}
>
> Any suggestions?
>

"The Treasuror CAN conduct a device (a "victory device") if no victory
device is ongoing."

--
secretsnail

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Mad Engineer weekly random rule selection

[Jason Cobb via agora-discussion]

On 3/27/22 20:07, ais523 via agora-discussion wrote:
> On Mon, 2022-03-28 at 02:05 +0200, nethack4.org dicebot via agora-
> business wrote:
>> The dice roll was: 124
>> This is R2629, Victory Auctions.
> Another duplicate. For reference, again:
> {{{
>The Treasuror CAN conduct an auction (a "victory auction") if no
>victory auction is ongoing.  The Treasuror MUST do so at least
>once a month, and SHOULD do so at least twice each month.
>
>A victory auction includes the following lots:
>
>* one new Win Card.
>
>* all of any single type of card or product, currently owned by
>  the Lost and Found Department, if any.
>
>The currency of a victory auction is coins (minimum bid 1).
> }}}
>
> Any suggestions?
>

Well it's an option to define the lots of a device auction (already in
the rule), but that would have to at least include a win card, which
would probably mess up the economy.

Otherwise: "The device MUST do so at least once a month, and SHOULD do
so at least twice each month.", but that probably creates impossible
obligations for the Engineer.

-- 
Jason Cobb

Assessor, Rulekeepor, S​tonemason

DIS: Re: BUS: Mad Engineer weekly random rule selection

[ais523 via agora-discussion]

On Mon, 2022-03-28 at 02:05 +0200, nethack4.org dicebot via agora-
business wrote:
> The dice roll was: 124
> This is R2629, Victory Auctions.

Another duplicate. For reference, again:
{{{
   The Treasuror CAN conduct an auction (a "victory auction") if no
   victory auction is ongoing.  The Treasuror MUST do so at least
   once a month, and SHOULD do so at least twice each month.
   
   A victory auction includes the following lots:
   
   * one new Win Card.
   
   * all of any single type of card or product, currently owned by
 the Lost and Found Department, if any.
   
   The currency of a victory auction is coins (minimum bid 1).
}}}

Any suggestions?

-- 
ais523
Mad Engineer

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Mad Engineer weekly random rule selection

[Jason Cobb via agora-discussion]

On 3/21/22 20:15, ais523 via agora-discussion wrote:
> On Tue, 2022-03-22 at 01:12 +0100, nethack4.org dicebot via agora-
> business wrote:
>> Assignment of dice rolls to rules:
>> 106:R2579; 107:R2581; 108:R2582; 109:R2585; 110:R2603; 111:R2605;
> [I added a special case in the randomization program so that it would
> know that R2602 isn't a rule, even though it appears in the online
> FLR.]
>
>> The dice roll was: 50
>> This is R2162, Switches.
> For reference:
> {{{
>A type of switch is a property that the rules define as a switch,
>and specify the following:
>   
>1. The type(s) of entity possessing an instance of that switch. No
>   other entity possesses an instance of that switch.
>   
>2. One or more possible values for instances of that switch,
>   exactly one of which should be designated as the default. No
>   values other than those listed are possible for instances of
>   that switch, except that, if no default is otherwise
>   specified, then rules to the contrary notwithstanding, the
>   "null" value is a possible value for that switch, and is the
>   default.
>
>3. Optionally, exactly one office whose holder tracks instances of
>   that switch. That officer's (weekly, if not specified
>   otherwise) report includes the value of each instance of that
>   switch whose value is not its default value; a public document
>   purporting to be this portion of that officer's report is
>   self-ratifying, and implies that other instances are at their
>   default value.
>
>At any given time, each instance of a switch has exactly one
>possible value for that type of switch. If an instance of a switch
>comes to have a value, it ceases to have any other value. If an
>instance of a switch would otherwise fail to have a possible
>value, it comes to have its default value. A Rule that designates
>a switch as "secured" (at a given power level) designates changes
>to the properties of that type of switch as secured (at that power
>level) and designates changes to the value of each instance of the
>switch as secured (at that power level).
>
>"To flip an instance of a switch" is to make it come to have a
>given value. "To become X" (where X is a possible value of
>exactly one of the subject's switches) is to flip that switch to
>X.
>
>If a type of switch is not explicitly designated as
>possibly-indeterminate by the rule that defines it, and if an
>action or set of actions would cause the value of an instance of
>that type of switch to become indeterminate, that instance instead
>takes on its last determinate and possible value, if any,
>otherwise it takes on its default value.
>
>A singleton switch is a switch for which Agora Nomic is the only
>entity possessing an instance of that switch.
>
>A boolean switch is a switch with values True and False. A
>positive boolean switch has a default of True; a negative boolean
>switch has a default of False.
>
>Attempting to flip an instance of a switch to a value it already
>has does not flip the switch. However, if a person is REQUIRED to
>flip a switch instance to a value it already has, then either
>attempting to do so using the required mechanism, or announcing
>that the switch already has the required value, fulfills the
>requirement without flipping the switch.
> }}}
>
> Lots of sentences to choose from this week! Any suggestions?
>

"At any given time, each instance of a device has exactly one possible
value for that type of device."
"At any given time, each device of a switch has exactly one possible
value of that type of switch."
"If an instance of a device would otherwise fail to have a possible
value, it comes to have its default value."
"If an instance of a switch would otherwise fail to have a possible
device, it comes to have its default device."
"A singleton device is a device for which Agora Nomic is the only entity
possessing an instance of that device."
"A device switch is a switch with values True and False."
"Attempting to flip an instance of a device to a value it already has
does not flip the device."

-- 
Jason Cobb

Assessor, Rulekeepor, S​tonemason

DIS: Re: BUS: Mad Engineer weekly random rule selection

[ais523 via agora-discussion]

On Tue, 2022-03-22 at 01:12 +0100, nethack4.org dicebot via agora-
business wrote:
> Assignment of dice rolls to rules:
> 106:R2579; 107:R2581; 108:R2582; 109:R2585; 110:R2603; 111:R2605;
[I added a special case in the randomization program so that it would
know that R2602 isn't a rule, even though it appears in the online
FLR.]

> The dice roll was: 50
> This is R2162, Switches.

For reference:
{{{
   A type of switch is a property that the rules define as a switch,
   and specify the following:
  
   1. The type(s) of entity possessing an instance of that switch. No
  other entity possesses an instance of that switch.
  
   2. One or more possible values for instances of that switch,
  exactly one of which should be designated as the default. No
  values other than those listed are possible for instances of
  that switch, except that, if no default is otherwise
  specified, then rules to the contrary notwithstanding, the
  "null" value is a possible value for that switch, and is the
  default.
   
   3. Optionally, exactly one office whose holder tracks instances of
  that switch. That officer's (weekly, if not specified
  otherwise) report includes the value of each instance of that
  switch whose value is not its default value; a public document
  purporting to be this portion of that officer's report is
  self-ratifying, and implies that other instances are at their
  default value.
   
   At any given time, each instance of a switch has exactly one
   possible value for that type of switch. If an instance of a switch
   comes to have a value, it ceases to have any other value. If an
   instance of a switch would otherwise fail to have a possible
   value, it comes to have its default value. A Rule that designates
   a switch as "secured" (at a given power level) designates changes
   to the properties of that type of switch as secured (at that power
   level) and designates changes to the value of each instance of the
   switch as secured (at that power level).
   
   "To flip an instance of a switch" is to make it come to have a
   given value. "To become X" (where X is a possible value of
   exactly one of the subject's switches) is to flip that switch to
   X.
   
   If a type of switch is not explicitly designated as
   possibly-indeterminate by the rule that defines it, and if an
   action or set of actions would cause the value of an instance of
   that type of switch to become indeterminate, that instance instead
   takes on its last determinate and possible value, if any,
   otherwise it takes on its default value.
   
   A singleton switch is a switch for which Agora Nomic is the only
   entity possessing an instance of that switch.
   
   A boolean switch is a switch with values True and False. A
   positive boolean switch has a default of True; a negative boolean
   switch has a default of False.
   
   Attempting to flip an instance of a switch to a value it already
   has does not flip the switch. However, if a person is REQUIRED to
   flip a switch instance to a value it already has, then either
   attempting to do so using the required mechanism, or announcing
   that the switch already has the required value, fulfills the
   requirement without flipping the switch.
}}}

Lots of sentences to choose from this week! Any suggestions?

-- 
ais523
Mad Engineer

DIS: Re: BUS: Mad Engineer weekly random rule selection

[ais523 via agora-discussion]

On Wed, 2022-03-16 at 03:58 +0100, nethack4.org dicebot via agora-
business wrote:
> The dice roll was: 56
> This is R2221, Cleanliness and Tidy Filing.

[I forgot to do this earlier.]

For reference:
{{{
Rule 2221/8 (Power=3)
Cleanliness and Tidy Filing

  Any player CAN clean a rule without objection by specifying one or
  more corrections to spelling, grammar, capitalization, formatting,
  and/or dialect, or to whether a synonym or abbreviation is used in
  place of a word or phrase, in the rule's text and/or title; the
  rule is amended by this rule as specified by that person.
  
  Any player CAN refile a rule without objection, specifying a new
  title; the rule is retitled to the specified title by this rule.

}}}

I think this rule was picked before, but there isn't a rule against
duplicates occurring (in fact, I'm mildly surprised that it hadn't
happened already). Any further suggestions?

-- 
ais523
Mad Engineer

DIS: Re: BUS: Mad Engineer weekly random rule selection

[ais523 via agora-discussion]

On Mon, 2022-03-07 at 14:58 +0100, nethack4.org dicebot via agora-
business wrote:
> The dice roll was: 45
> This is R2141, Role and Attributes of Rules.

For reference:
{{{
  A rule is a type of instrument that is always taking effect and
  has the capacity to govern the game generally. A rule's content
  takes the form of a text, and is unlimited in scope. The ruleset
  is the set of all currently-existing rules.
  
  Every current rule has power between 0.1 and 4.0 inclusive.
  
  Every rule shall have an ID number, distinct among current and
  former rules, to be assigned once by the Rulekeepor by public
  designation.
  
  Every rule shall have a title to aid in identification. If a rule
  ever does not have a title, then the Rulekeepor CAN and SHALL
  assign a title to it by announcement in a timely fashion.
  
  For the purposes of rules governing modification of instruments,
  the text, power, ID number, and title of a rule are all
  substantive aspects of the rule. However, rules to the contrary
  notwithstanding, the Rulekeepor CAN set rule aspects as described
  elsewhere in this rule.
}}}

Any suggestions?

-- 
ais523
Mad Engineer

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Mad Engineer weekly random rule selection

[secretsnail9 via agora-discussion]

"Grant" seems interesting. Maybe we can give people devices.
--
secretsnail

DIS: Re: BUS: Mad Engineer weekly random rule selection

[Ørjan Johansen via agora-discussion]

On Mon, 28 Feb 2022, ais523 via agora-business wrote:


For reference:
{{{
 Each of the following Ministries has a Grant, listed below.

 Ministry of Compliance: 1 Justice Card
 Ministry of Legislation: 1 Legislative Card
 Ministry of Participation: 1 Voting Card
 Ministry of Legacy: 1 Winsome

 A player CAN once a month grant eir Ministry Focus' Grant to a
 specified player by announcement.

 The Ministor CAN, once a month and by announcement, and SHALL, in
 a timely manner from the beginning of the month, grant 1 Win Card
 to a random player whose Ministry Focus is Legacy .
}}}

Any suggestions?


"Ministor" in the last paragraph would have the feature of clearly doing 
something, although not something very new.


Greetings,
Ørjan.

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Mad Engineer weekly random rule selection

[Ned Strange via agora-discussion]

On Mon, Feb 21, 2022 at 4:16 PM Jason Cobb via agora-discussion <
agora-discussion@agoranomic.org> wrote:

> On 2/20/22 20:49, ais523 via agora-discussion wrote:
> > On Mon, 2022-02-21 at 02:47 +0100, nethack4.org dicebot via agora-
> > business wrote:
> >> The dice roll was: 41
> >> This is R2137, The Assessor.
> > For reference:
> > {{{
> >   The Assessor is an office; its holder is responsible for
> >   collecting votes and keeping track of related properties.
> > }}}
> >
> > Well, I guess I know which sentence we're going to pick this week! Any
> > suggestions on what word to replace?
> >
>
> I am of course biased and vote for "The Assessor is an device; its
> holder is responsible for collecting votes and keeping track of related
> properties."
>
> If you go with this, please don't put it in the "device is on" section.
> I'd prefer to not cease to exist at the end of my time window (though I
> guess we all will eventually...).
>
> --
> Jason Cobb
>
> Assessor, Rulekeepor, Stonemason
>
>
It does say the time window is 60 days unless the Device states otherwise,
so I assume you could just state otherwise (say, a billion years).

I also back this suggestion because all other options would either create
an office or make the assessor track more.
-- 
>From R. Lee

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Mad Engineer weekly random rule selection

[Jason Cobb via agora-discussion]

On 2/20/22 20:49, ais523 via agora-discussion wrote:
> On Mon, 2022-02-21 at 02:47 +0100, nethack4.org dicebot via agora-
> business wrote:
>> The dice roll was: 41
>> This is R2137, The Assessor.
> For reference:
> {{{
>   The Assessor is an office; its holder is responsible for
>   collecting votes and keeping track of related properties.
> }}}
>
> Well, I guess I know which sentence we're going to pick this week! Any
> suggestions on what word to replace?
>

I am of course biased and vote for "The Assessor is an device; its
holder is responsible for collecting votes and keeping track of related
properties."

If you go with this, please don't put it in the "device is on" section.
I'd prefer to not cease to exist at the end of my time window (though I
guess we all will eventually...).

-- 
Jason Cobb

Assessor, Rulekeepor, S​tonemason

DIS: Re: BUS: Mad Engineer weekly random rule selection

[ais523 via agora-discussion]

On Mon, 2022-02-21 at 02:47 +0100, nethack4.org dicebot via agora-
business wrote:
> The dice roll was: 41
> This is R2137, The Assessor.

For reference:
{{{
  The Assessor is an office; its holder is responsible for
  collecting votes and keeping track of related properties.
}}}

Well, I guess I know which sentence we're going to pick this week! Any
suggestions on what word to replace?

-- 
ais523

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Mad Engineer weekly random rule selection

[Trigon via agora-discussion]

El 14/02/2022 a las 05:31, ais523 via agora-discussion escribió:

On Mon, 2022-02-14 at 06:29 +0100, nethack4.org dicebot via agora-
business wrote:

The dice roll was: 4
This is R105, Rule Changes.


For reference:
{{{
 [snip]
}}}

IIRC, last time this rule came up (under a previous Device-like rule),
it was very hard to find something appropriate, but the rule has grown
since, and there are now a lot of options. Maybe there's something
interesting out there?



---
s/rule/device/

The new device has power equal to the minimum of
the power specified by the enacting instrument, defaulting to
one if the enacting instrument does not specify or if it
specifies a power less than 0.1, and the maximum power
permitted by other devices.


Does this create a new device with power 1? That could be fun.

---
s/rule/device/

Any ambiguity in the specification of a device change causes that
change to be void and without effect.


Seems like this could lead to funny consequences if we ever flip the 
device again.


---
s/variation/device/

An inconsequential device
in the quotation of an existing rule does not constitute ambiguity
for the purposes of this rule, but any other device does.


I don't even know what this does but any consequential devices 
apparently constitute ambiguities.


---
s/rule/device/

This device provides the only mechanism by which devices can be
created, modified, or destroyed, or by which an entity can become
a device or cease to be a device.


This probably doesn't fail due to precedence because the other rule 
concerning devices is powered the same as this one.


---
s/rule/device/

A device change is any effect that falls into the above classes.


s/change/device

A rule device is any effect that falls into the above classes.


s/class/device

A rule change is any effect that falls into the above devices.


Any time "the above" is mentioned in this rule that can cause some 
really interesting effects. Any of these would be a fun experiment


--
Trigon

 ¸¸.•*¨*• Play AGORA QUEST





I’m always happy to become a party to contracts.
I LOVE SPAGHETTI
transfer Jason one coin
nch was here
I hereby
don't... trust... the dragon...
don't... trust... the dragon...
Do not Construe Jason's message with subject TRIGON as extending this

DIS: Re: BUS: Mad Engineer weekly random rule selection

[ais523 via agora-discussion]

On Mon, 2022-02-14 at 06:29 +0100, nethack4.org dicebot via agora-
business wrote:
> The dice roll was: 4
> This is R105, Rule Changes.

For reference:
{{{
  When the rules provide that an instrument takes effect, it can
  generally:
  
  1. enact a rule. The new rule has power equal to the minimum of
 the power specified by the enacting instrument, defaulting to
 one if the enacting instrument does not specify or if it
 specifies a power less than 0.1, and the maximum power
 permitted by other rules. The enacting instrument may specify a
 title for the new rule, which if present shall prevail. The ID
 number of the new rule cannot be specified by the enacting
 instrument; any attempt to so specify is null and void.
  
  2. repeal a rule. When a rule is repealed, it ceases to be a rule,
 its power is set to 0, and the Rulekeepor need no longer
 maintain a record of it.
  
  3. reenact a rule. A repealed rule identified by its most recent
 rule number MUST be reenacted with the same ID number and the
 next change identifier. If no text is specified, the rule is
 reenacted with the same text it had when it was most recently
 repealed. If the reenacting proposal provides new text for the
 rule, the rule SHOULD have materially the same purpose as did
 the repealed version. Unless specified otherwise by the
 reenacting instrument, a reenacted rule has power equal to the
 power it had at the time of its repeal (or power 1, if power
 was not defined at the time of that rule's repeal). If the
 reenacting instrument is incapable of setting the reenacted
 rule's power to that value, then the reenactment is null and
 void.
  
  4. amend the text of a rule.
  
  5. retitle a rule.
  
  6. change the power of a rule.
  
  A rule change is any effect that falls into the above classes.
  Rule changes always occur sequentially, never simultaneously.
  
  Any ambiguity in the specification of a rule change causes that
  change to be void and without effect. An inconsequential variation
  in the quotation of an existing rule does not constitute ambiguity
  for the purposes of this rule, but any other variation does.
  
  A rule change is wholly prevented from taking effect unless its
  full text was published, along with an unambiguous and clear
  specification of the method to be used for changing the rule, at
  least 4 days and no more than 60 days before it would otherwise
  take effect.
  
  This rule provides the only mechanism by which rules can be
  created, modified, or destroyed, or by which an entity can become
  a rule or cease to be a rule.
}}}

IIRC, last time this rule came up (under a previous Device-like rule),
it was very hard to find something appropriate, but the rule has grown
since, and there are now a lot of options. Maybe there's something
interesting out there?

-- 
ais523
Mad Scientist

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Mad Engineer weekly random rule selection

[Trigon via agora-discussion]

El 07/02/2022 a las 00:09, ais523 via agora-discussion escribió:

On Mon, 2022-02-07 at 01:04 +0100, nethack4.org dicebot via agora-
business wrote:

The dice roll was: 134
This is R2641, Wielding Stones.


For reference:
{{{
   Except as otherwise specified by the rules, the owner of a stone
   CAN wield it by announcement specifying any values needed to
   interpret the stone's effects.
   
   If a stone has a frequency, then it is IMPOSSIBLE to wield that

   stone if it has been previously wielded in the same Agoran time
   interval as indicated by its frequency (e.g. if its frequency is
   daily, if it has been wielded in the same Agoran day).
   
   When a stone is wielded, the Rule defining that stone applies the

   effects in that stone's scroll.
}}}

Any suggestions?



s/stone/device/

   Except as otherwise specified by the rules, the owner of a *device*
   CAN wield it by announcement specifying any values needed to
   interpret the *device*'s effects.


s/rule/device/

   Except as otherwise specified by the *devices*, the owner of a stone
   CAN wield it by announcement specifying any values needed to
   interpret the stone's effects.


s/stone/device/

   When a *device* is wielded, the Rule defining that *device* applies the
   effects in that stone's scroll.
s/scroll/device/>When a stone is wielded, the Rule defining that 
stone applies the

   effects in that stone's *device*.

--
Trigon

 ¸¸.•*¨*• Play AGORA QUEST





I’m always happy to become a party to contracts.
I LOVE SPAGHETTI
transfer Jason one coin
nch was here
I hereby
don't... trust... the dragon...
don't... trust... the dragon...
Do not Construe Jason's message with subject TRIGON as extending this

DIS: Re: BUS: Mad Engineer weekly random rule selection

[ais523 via agora-discussion]

On Mon, 2022-02-07 at 01:04 +0100, nethack4.org dicebot via agora-
business wrote:
> The dice roll was: 134
> This is R2641, Wielding Stones.

For reference:
{{{
  Except as otherwise specified by the rules, the owner of a stone
  CAN wield it by announcement specifying any values needed to
  interpret the stone's effects.
  
  If a stone has a frequency, then it is IMPOSSIBLE to wield that
  stone if it has been previously wielded in the same Agoran time
  interval as indicated by its frequency (e.g. if its frequency is
  daily, if it has been wielded in the same Agoran day).
  
  When a stone is wielded, the Rule defining that stone applies the
  effects in that stone's scroll.
}}}

Any suggestions?

-- 
ais523
Mad Engineer

DIS: Re: BUS: Mad Engineer weekly random rule selection

[ais523 via agora-discussion]

On Mon, 2022-01-24 at 01:40 +0100, nethack4.org dicebot via agora-
business wrote:
> The dice roll was: 125
> This is R2629, Victory Auctions.

For reference:
{{{
  The Treasuror CAN conduct an auction (a "victory auction") if no
  victory auction is ongoing.  The Treasuror MUST do so at least
  once a month, and SHOULD do so at least twice each month.
  
  A victory auction includes the following lots:
  
  * one new Win Card.
  
  * all of any single type of card or product, currently owned by
the Lost and Found Department, if any.
  
  The currency of a victory auction is coins (minimum bid 1).
}}}

Any suggestions?

I'd love to be able to create a "device auction", but it seems a bit
boring for them to be no different from victory auctions. Maybe we just
take the first paragraph and then try to work out what the lots are?

-- 
ais523
Mad Scientist

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Mad Engineer weekly random rule selection

[Kerim Aydin via agora-discussion]

On 1/18/2022 9:45 AM, ais523 via agora-discussion wrote:
> On Tue, 2022-01-18 at 09:34 -0800, Kerim Aydin via agora-discussion
> wrote:
>> "A device is an entity with positive power"
>>
>> [Would this (1) make all rules into devices or (2) make the "actual"
>> device nonexistent, as it is not an entity with positive power?]
> 
> Might it not just give the device a power of 1?
> 
> IIRC, it's possible for a rule, even a low-powered rule, to create an
> instrument with a power equal to or lower than itself (unless someone
> can find a rule contradicting that).
> 
> If this does work, we pretty much have to try it.

I agree, the rules are clear that it's possible for a power-1 rule to set
power of other entities up to 1, if it's written clearly enough.  Though
"positive power" could be a fraction less than 1 - the various 1.0
minimums only apply to specific types of entities I think - so maybe
there's too much ambiguity for it to work (in addition to the ambiguity of
the sentence construction).  Would it lead to truly indeterminate power
but within the range (0..1]?  Maybe with a judgement of "it's IRRELEVANT
to know the exact power unless in the context of comparing it to something
else, in which case a range might suffice"?  That would be interesting.

Given that it's not outright and clearly blocked by other rules seems like
it's worth a go...

> (Incidentally: seeing this suggestion has made me realise that "an
> instrument is an entity with positive power" is ambiguous; it could be
> interpreted as "an instrument is a type of entity, and has positive
> power" or "when rules refer to an 'instrument', they are referring to
> an 'entity with positive power'". I actually think the former reading
> is more natural; the latter reading probably survives in the case of
> instruments due to rule 217, but I'm not sure. That isn't a reason to
> use the same reading in the case of devices, though.)
> 

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Mad Engineer weekly random rule selection

[ais523 via agora-discussion]

On Tue, 2022-01-18 at 09:34 -0800, Kerim Aydin via agora-discussion
wrote:
> "A device is an entity with positive power"
> 
> [Would this (1) make all rules into devices or (2) make the "actual"
> device nonexistent, as it is not an entity with positive power?]

Might it not just give the device a power of 1?

IIRC, it's possible for a rule, even a low-powered rule, to create an
instrument with a power equal to or lower than itself (unless someone
can find a rule contradicting that).

If this does work, we pretty much have to try it.

(Incidentally: seeing this suggestion has made me realise that "an
instrument is an entity with positive power" is ambiguous; it could be
interpreted as "an instrument is a type of entity, and has positive
power" or "when rules refer to an 'instrument', they are referring to
an 'entity with positive power'". I actually think the former reading
is more natural; the latter reading probably survives in the case of
instruments due to rule 217, but I'm not sure. That isn't a reason to
use the same reading in the case of devices, though.)

-- 
ais523

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Mad Engineer weekly random rule selection

[Kerim Aydin via agora-discussion]

On 1/17/2022 1:11 AM, ais523 via agora-discussion wrote:
> On Mon, 2022-01-17 at 10:07 +0100, nethack4.org dicebot via agora-
> business wrote:
>> The dice roll was: 28
>> This is R1688, Power.
> 
> For reference:
> {{{
> The Power of an entity is a non-negative rational number. An
> instrument is an entity with positive Power.
>   
> The Power of an entity cannot be set or modified except as
> stipulated by the Rules. All entities have Power zero except where
> specifically allowed by the rules.
>   
> A Rule that makes a change, action, or value secured (hereafter
> the securing Rule) thereby makes it IMPOSSIBLE to perform that
> change or action, or to set or modify that value, except as
> allowed by an instrument with Power greater than or equal to the
> change's Power Threshold. This Threshold defaults to the securing
> Rule's Power, but CAN be lowered as allowed by that Rule
> (including by the Rule itself).
> }}}
> 
> Any suggestions? It may be hard to find something that doesn't fail for
> precedence reasons.
> 

"All entities have device zero except where specifically allowed by the
rules."

[I wouldn't read "device zero" as "zero devices" although another judge
might - would this mean there was a "device zero" belonging to everyone?]


"A device is an entity with positive power"

[Would this (1) make all rules into devices or (2) make the "actual"
device nonexistent, as it is not an entity with positive power?]

DIS: Re: BUS: Mad Engineer weekly random rule selection

[ais523 via agora-discussion]

On Mon, 2022-01-17 at 10:07 +0100, nethack4.org dicebot via agora-
business wrote:
> The dice roll was: 28
> This is R1688, Power.

For reference:
{{{
The Power of an entity is a non-negative rational number. An
instrument is an entity with positive Power.
  
The Power of an entity cannot be set or modified except as
stipulated by the Rules. All entities have Power zero except where
specifically allowed by the rules.
  
A Rule that makes a change, action, or value secured (hereafter
the securing Rule) thereby makes it IMPOSSIBLE to perform that
change or action, or to set or modify that value, except as
allowed by an instrument with Power greater than or equal to the
change's Power Threshold. This Threshold defaults to the securing
Rule's Power, but CAN be lowered as allowed by that Rule
(including by the Rule itself).
}}}

Any suggestions? It may be hard to find something that doesn't fail for
precedence reasons.

-- 
ais523
Mad Scientist

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Mad Engineer weekly random rule selection

[Trigon via agora-discussion]

El 10/01/2022 a las 00:09, ais523 via agora-discussion escribió:

On Mon, 2022-01-10 at 01:05 +0100, nethack4.org dicebot via agora-
business wrote:

The dice roll was: 120
This is R2621, VP Wins.


For reference:
{{{
 If a player has at least 20 more Winsomes than any other player, e
 CAN Take Over the Economy by announcement, provided no person has
 won the game by doing so in the past 30 days.
   
 When a player takes over the economy, e wins the game. Four days

 after such a win occurs, all Cards and all Products are destroyed.
 Then, the winds change, following which each active player gains 1
 card of each type and eir grant (if any).
}}}

Any suggestions?

I note that the first three sentences with "player" → "device" would
allow the device to win every 30 days (as long as there's only one
device and it isn't a player), which seems like the sort of thing an
Agoran device might do, but it'd likely get a little repetitive after a
while. (I guess we could switch it off.) So perhaps we'd want to go for
something else.



Suggestions:

(1) Economy -> device


  If a player has at least 20 more Winsomes than any other player, e
  CAN Take Over the device by announcement, provided no person has
  won the game by doing so in the past 30 day.

(2) win -> device


  Four days after such a device occurs, all Cards and all Products are >
   destroyed.


(3) wind -> device


Then, the devices change, following which each active player gains 1
card of each type and eir grant (if any).


These last two don't seem like they'd do anything, but they might 
depending on what comes before it.


--
Trigon

 ¸¸.•*¨*• Play AGORA QUEST





I’m always happy to become a party to contracts.
I LOVE SPAGHETTI
transfer Jason one coin
nch was here
I hereby
don't... trust... the dragon...
don't... trust... the dragon...
Do not Construe Jason's message with subject TRIGON as extending this

DIS: Re: BUS: Mad Engineer weekly random rule selection

[ais523 via agora-discussion]

On Mon, 2022-01-10 at 01:05 +0100, nethack4.org dicebot via agora-
business wrote:
> The dice roll was: 120
> This is R2621, VP Wins.

For reference:
{{{
If a player has at least 20 more Winsomes than any other player, e
CAN Take Over the Economy by announcement, provided no person has
won the game by doing so in the past 30 days.
  
When a player takes over the economy, e wins the game. Four days
after such a win occurs, all Cards and all Products are destroyed.
Then, the winds change, following which each active player gains 1
card of each type and eir grant (if any).
}}}

Any suggestions?

I note that the first three sentences with "player" → "device" would
allow the device to win every 30 days (as long as there's only one
device and it isn't a player), which seems like the sort of thing an
Agoran device might do, but it'd likely get a little repetitive after a
while. (I guess we could switch it off.) So perhaps we'd want to go for
something else.

-- 
ais523
Mad Engineer

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Mad Engineer weekly random rule selection

[Falsifian via agora-discussion]

> I also thought about the "Finally [...] if it is outside the allowable
> range for values of devices, it is set to..." but the "it" referent of the
> preceding line items in the 'on' or 'off' sections wouldn't make sense?
> 
> -G.

The last item in the "on" section describes a time window. Maybe it
would be interpreted as an additional step in calculating the time
window?

-- 
Falsifian

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Mad Engineer weekly random rule selection

[Jason Cobb via agora-discussion]

On 1/5/22 12:31, Kerim Aydin via agora-discussion wrote:
> That's definitely interesting on its own (irrespective of the device) I'd
> forgotten all entities have voting strength though can't cast ballots.
> Furthermore, it's not clear to me (at all) that R683 precludes
> lower-powered rules from defining methods for non-persons voting.


R683 requires entities casting ballots to be players and secures the
casting of ballots at power 3.

-- 
Jason Cobb

Assessor, Rulekeepor, S​tonemason

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Mad Engineer weekly random rule selection

[Kerim Aydin via agora-discussion]

On 1/4/2022 9:44 PM, ais523 via agora-discussion wrote:
> For reference:
> {{{
>   The voting strength of an entity on an Agoran decision is an
>   integer between 0 and 15 inclusive, defined by rules of power 2
>   or greater. If not otherwise specified, the voting strength of
>   an entity on an Agoran decision is 3.
>   
>   When multiple rules set or modify an entity's voting strength on
>   an Agoran decision, it shall be determined by first applying the
>   rule(s) which set it to a specific value, using the ordinary
>   precedence of rules, and then applying the rules, other than
>   this one, which modify it, in numerical order by ID. Finally, if
>   the result of the calculation is not an integer, it is rounded
>   up, and then if it is outside the allowable range of values for
>   voting strength, it is set to the minimum value if it was less
>   and the maximum value if it was more.
> }}}
> 
> Any suggestions?
> 
> We could attempt to give the Device voting strength, but unfortunately
> that wouldn't actually do anything; only players can vote (R683), and
> it's secured at power 2 (R2422). In fact, I think the Device
> technically has voting strength even under the current rules, it just
> doesn't do anything.

That's definitely interesting on its own (irrespective of the device) I'd
forgotten all entities have voting strength though can't cast ballots.
Furthermore, it's not clear to me (at all) that R683 precludes
lower-powered rules from defining methods for non-persons voting.

One question I'm totally unsure is how to treat a compound term of art in
terms of nouns - would a replacement involving "voting strength" be
"device" or "voting device"?  Anyway, how about this one, it's about the
only thing I see that isn't nullified by the power issue:

> If not otherwise specified, the device of an entity on an
> Agoran decision is 3.

Meaning every entity gets 3 devices by default?  Or all devices are 3
years old?  I dunno.  (I think "voting device" does approximately the same
job if that's the legal noun replacement).

I also thought about the "Finally [...] if it is outside the allowable
range for values of devices, it is set to..." but the "it" referent of the
preceding line items in the 'on' or 'off' sections wouldn't make sense?

-G.

DIS: Re: BUS: Mad Engineer weekly random rule selection

[ais523 via agora-discussion]

On Wed, 2022-01-05 at 06:40 +0100, nethack4.org dicebot via agora-
business wrote:
> The dice roll was: 64
> This is R2422, Voting Strength.

For reference:
{{{
  The voting strength of an entity on an Agoran decision is an
  integer between 0 and 15 inclusive, defined by rules of power 2
  or greater. If not otherwise specified, the voting strength of
  an entity on an Agoran decision is 3.
  
  When multiple rules set or modify an entity's voting strength on
  an Agoran decision, it shall be determined by first applying the
  rule(s) which set it to a specific value, using the ordinary
  precedence of rules, and then applying the rules, other than
  this one, which modify it, in numerical order by ID. Finally, if
  the result of the calculation is not an integer, it is rounded
  up, and then if it is outside the allowable range of values for
  voting strength, it is set to the minimum value if it was less
  and the maximum value if it was more.
}}}

Any suggestions?

We could attempt to give the Device voting strength, but unfortunately
that wouldn't actually do anything; only players can vote (R683), and
it's secured at power 2 (R2422). In fact, I think the Device
technically has voting strength even under the current rules, it just
doesn't do anything.

(On a side note: I'm finding it increasingly hard to remember to do
office duties. If anyone's interested in taking over, that might give
us more time for the Mad Engineer discussions.)

-- 
ais523
Mad Engineer

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Mad Engineer weekly random rule selection

[Kerim Aydin via agora-discussion]

On 12/31/2021 3:54 PM, ais523 via agora-discussion wrote:
> Arguably, because a singleton
> switch is a switch that pertains to Agora, adding a new one would
> involve creating a new Agora.
> 

Nice!  Not that intent matters, but in writing the proposal I put The
Device Rule before The Mad Engineer Rule on purpose... it seemed like it
would be more interesting if the device-added text had some precedence
over its definition.

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Mad Engineer weekly random rule selection

[ais523 via agora-discussion]

On Tue, 2021-12-28 at 21:24 -0800, Aspen via agora-discussion wrote:
> On Tue, Dec 28, 2021 at 8:55 PM Ørjan Johansen via agora-discussion <
> agora-discussion@agoranomic.org> wrote:
> >Rules are assigned to, ordered within, or moved between
> >devices, and devices are added, changed, or empty devices
> >removed, as the Rulekeepor sees fit.
> > 
> > Greetings,
> > Ørjan.
> > 
> I like both this and ais523's suggestion, but think I like this more. It's
> time we set things up for the devices to *do* something. Plus, and don't
> tell Jason I said this, I trust em.

My main concern with this is that the Device has multiple states, and
it isn't clear what would happen to the changes made by this once the
Device got thrown over to the other state.

This would probably also allow the Rulekeepor to change the device into
its other state (a device is a switch, and "changing" a switch is
probably flipping it) while it were active; that isn't necessarily a
bad thing (I'm already able to unilateraly flip the device off), just a
consequence that we'd need to be aware of. If we're going with this, I
might make it a "device off" rule just so that the Device can be
unilaterally flipped both ways.

In any case, it's very unclear what it means to add or remove something
that's defined as a singleton switch! Arguably, because a singleton
switch is a switch that pertains to Agora, adding a new one would
involve creating a new Agora.

-- 
ais523
Mad Engineer

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Mad Engineer weekly random rule selection

[Aspen via agora-discussion]

On Tue, Dec 28, 2021 at 8:55 PM Ørjan Johansen via agora-discussion <
agora-discussion@agoranomic.org> wrote:

> On Tue, 28 Dec 2021, ais523 via agora-discussion wrote:
>
> > On Tue, 2021-12-28 at 11:21 +0100, nethack4.org dicebot via agora-
> > business wrote:
> >> The dice roll was: 27
> >> This is R1681, The Logical Rulesets.
>
> > Any suggestions?
>
>Rules are assigned to, ordered within, or moved between
>devices, and devices are added, changed, or empty devices
>removed, as the Rulekeepor sees fit.
>
> Greetings,
> Ørjan.
>
I like both this and ais523's suggestion, but think I like this more. It's
time we set things up for the devices to *do* something. Plus, and don't
tell Jason I said this, I trust em.

-Aspen

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Mad Engineer weekly random rule selection

[Ørjan Johansen via agora-discussion]

On Tue, 28 Dec 2021, ais523 via agora-discussion wrote:


On Tue, 2021-12-28 at 11:21 +0100, nethack4.org dicebot via agora-
business wrote:

The dice roll was: 27
This is R1681, The Logical Rulesets.



Any suggestions?


  Rules are assigned to, ordered within, or moved between
  devices, and devices are added, changed, or empty devices
  removed, as the Rulekeepor sees fit.

Greetings,
Ørjan.

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Mad Engineer weekly random rule selection

[ais523 via agora-discussion]

On Tue, 2021-12-28 at 10:22 +, ais523 via agora-discussion wrote:
> Any suggestions?
> 
Throwing my own suggestion out there for discussion:
{{{
The Rulekeepor SHOULD also include any other information which e
feels may be helpful in the use of the Device in the FLR.
}}}

It actually does something, and doesn't break anything!

-- 
ais523
Mad Engineer

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Mad Engineer weekly random rule selection

[Jason Cobb via agora-discussion]

On 12/28/21 05:22, ais523 via agora-discussion wrote:
> On Tue, 2021-12-28 at 11:21 +0100, nethack4.org dicebot via agora-
> business wrote:
>> The dice roll was: 27
>> This is R1681, The Logical Rulesets.
> For reference:
> {{{
>   The Short Logical Ruleset (SLR) is a format of the ruleset. In
>   this format, each rule is assigned to a category, and the rules
>   are grouped according to their category.
>   
>   Rules are assigned to, ordered within, or moved between
>   categories, and categories are added, changed, or empty categories
>   removed, as the Rulekeepor sees fit.
>   
>   The listing of each rule in the SLR must include the rule's ID
>   number, revision number, power, title, and text.
>   
>   The Rulekeepor is strongly DISCOURAGED from including any
>   additional information in the SLR, except that which increases the
>   readability of the SLR.
>   
>   The Full Logical Ruleset (FLR) is a format of the ruleset. In this
>   format, rules are assigned to the same category and presented in
>   the same order as in the SLR. The FLR must contain all the
>   information required to be in the SLR, and any historical
>   annotations which the Rulekeepor is required to record.
>   
>   The Rulekeepor SHOULD also include any other information which e
>   feels may be helpful in the use of the ruleset in the FLR.
>   
>   Whenever a rule is changed in any way, the Rulekeepor SHALL record
>   and thereafter maintain a reasonably accurate historical
>   annotation to the rule indicating:
>   
>   1. The type of change.
>   
>   2. The date on which the change took effect.
>   
>   3. The mechanism that specified the change.
>   
>   4. If the rule was changed due to a proposal, then that proposal's
>  ID number, author, and coauthor(s) (if any).
> }}}
>
> Any suggestions?
>

"The Short Logical Device (SLR) is a format of the device."

"Devices are assigned to, ordered within, or moved between categories,
and categories are added, changed, or empty categories removed, as the
Devicekeepor sees fit."

-- 
Jason Cobb

Assessor, Rulekeepor, S​tonemason

DIS: Re: BUS: Mad Engineer weekly random rule selection

[ais523 via agora-discussion]

On Tue, 2021-12-28 at 11:21 +0100, nethack4.org dicebot via agora-
business wrote:
> The dice roll was: 27
> This is R1681, The Logical Rulesets.

For reference:
{{{
  The Short Logical Ruleset (SLR) is a format of the ruleset. In
  this format, each rule is assigned to a category, and the rules
  are grouped according to their category.
  
  Rules are assigned to, ordered within, or moved between
  categories, and categories are added, changed, or empty categories
  removed, as the Rulekeepor sees fit.
  
  The listing of each rule in the SLR must include the rule's ID
  number, revision number, power, title, and text.
  
  The Rulekeepor is strongly DISCOURAGED from including any
  additional information in the SLR, except that which increases the
  readability of the SLR.
  
  The Full Logical Ruleset (FLR) is a format of the ruleset. In this
  format, rules are assigned to the same category and presented in
  the same order as in the SLR. The FLR must contain all the
  information required to be in the SLR, and any historical
  annotations which the Rulekeepor is required to record.
  
  The Rulekeepor SHOULD also include any other information which e
  feels may be helpful in the use of the ruleset in the FLR.
  
  Whenever a rule is changed in any way, the Rulekeepor SHALL record
  and thereafter maintain a reasonably accurate historical
  annotation to the rule indicating:
  
  1. The type of change.
  
  2. The date on which the change took effect.
  
  3. The mechanism that specified the change.
  
  4. If the rule was changed due to a proposal, then that proposal's
 ID number, author, and coauthor(s) (if any).
}}}

Any suggestions?

-- 
ais523
Mad Engineer

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Mad Engineer weekly random rule selection

[Jason Cobb via agora-discussion]

On 12/20/21 15:50, ais523 via agora-discussion wrote:
>   An entity submits a ballot on an Agoran decision by publishing a
>   notice satisfying the following conditions:
>   
>   1. The ballot is submitted during the voting period for the
>  decision.
>   
>   2. The entity casting the ballot (the voter) was, at the
>  initiation of the decision, a player.
>   
>   3. The ballot clearly identifies the matter to be decided.
>   
>   4. The ballot clearly identifies a valid vote, as determined by
>  the voting method.
>   
>   5. The ballot clearly sets forth the voter's intent to place
>  the identified vote.
>   
>   6. The voter has no other valid ballots on the same decision.


Although there are lots of short sentences, we can create something
longer that's coherent (mostly).

{

An entity submits a ballot on an Agoran device by publishing a notice
satisfying the following conditions:

1. The ballot is submitted during the voting period for the device.

2. The entity casting the ballot (the voter) was, at the initiation of
the device, a player.

3. The ballot clearly identifies the matter to be deviced.

4. The ballot clearly identifies a valid vote, as determined by the
voting method.

5. The ballot clearly sets forth the voter's intent to place the
identified vote.

6. The voter has no other valid ballots on the same device.

}

-- 
Jason Cobb

Assessor, Rulekeepor, S​tonemason

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Mad Engineer weekly random rule selection

[ATMunn via agora-discussion]

On 12/20/2021 15:50, ais523 via agora-discussion wrote:

On Mon, 2021-12-20 at 21:49 +0100, nethack4.org dicebot via agora-
business wrote:

The dice roll was: 12
This is R683, Voting on Agoran Decisions.


For reference:
{{{
   An entity submits a ballot on an Agoran decision by publishing a
   notice satisfying the following conditions:
   
   1. The ballot is submitted during the voting period for the

  decision.
   
   2. The entity casting the ballot (the voter) was, at the

  initiation of the decision, a player.
   
   3. The ballot clearly identifies the matter to be decided.
   
   4. The ballot clearly identifies a valid vote, as determined by

  the voting method.
   
   5. The ballot clearly sets forth the voter's intent to place

  the identified vote.
   
   6. The voter has no other valid ballots on the same decision.
   
   A valid ballot is a ballot, correctly submitted, that has not been

   withdrawn. During the voting period of an Agoran decision, an
   entity CAN by announcement withdraw (syn. retract) a ballot that e
   submitted on that decision. To "change" one's vote is to retract
   eir previous ballot (if any), then submit a new one. Submitting
   and withdrawing ballots is secured.
}}}

Any suggestions? We have lots of short sentences to choose from, which
means we may be able to create something great here.



"The entity casting the ballot (the voter) was, at the initiation of the 
decision, a device."


"The device clearly sets forth the voter's intent to place the 
identified vote."


--
ATMunn
friendly neighborhood notary :)

DIS: Re: BUS: Mad Engineer weekly random rule selection

[ais523 via agora-discussion]

On Mon, 2021-12-20 at 21:49 +0100, nethack4.org dicebot via agora-
business wrote:
> The dice roll was: 12
> This is R683, Voting on Agoran Decisions.

For reference:
{{{
  An entity submits a ballot on an Agoran decision by publishing a
  notice satisfying the following conditions:
  
  1. The ballot is submitted during the voting period for the
 decision.
  
  2. The entity casting the ballot (the voter) was, at the
 initiation of the decision, a player.
  
  3. The ballot clearly identifies the matter to be decided.
  
  4. The ballot clearly identifies a valid vote, as determined by
 the voting method.
  
  5. The ballot clearly sets forth the voter's intent to place
 the identified vote.
  
  6. The voter has no other valid ballots on the same decision.
  
  A valid ballot is a ballot, correctly submitted, that has not been
  withdrawn. During the voting period of an Agoran decision, an
  entity CAN by announcement withdraw (syn. retract) a ballot that e
  submitted on that decision. To "change" one's vote is to retract
  eir previous ballot (if any), then submit a new one. Submitting
  and withdrawing ballots is secured.
}}}

Any suggestions? We have lots of short sentences to choose from, which
means we may be able to create something great here.

-- 
ais523
Mad Engineer

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Mad Engineer weekly random rule selection

[Edward Murphy via agora-discussion]

ais523 wrote:


On Tue, 2021-12-14 at 05:11 +0100, nethack4.org dicebot via agora-
business wrote:

The dice roll was: 92
This is R2528, Voting Methods.


For reference:
{{{
   Each Agoran decision has a voting method, which must be
   AI-majority, instant runoff, or first-past-the-post. The voting
   method is that specified by the authorizing authority, or
   first-past-the-post by default.
   
   Each Agoran decision has a set of valid options (the choices that

   the voters are being asked to select from) and valid votes (the
   ways in which the voters can express their opinion or lack
   thereof. For AI-majority decisions, the valid options are FOR and
   AGAINST; for other decisions, the valid options are defined by
   other rules.
   
   The valid votes on an Agoran decision are:
   
   1. PRESENT;
   
   2. The valid conditional votes, as defined by rules of power at

  least that of this rule; and
   
   3. For an instant runoff decision, the ordered lists of entities.
   
   4. For any other decision, the valid options.

}}}

Any suggestions?


  For AI-majority decisions, the valid devices are FOR and
  AGAINST; for other decisions, the valid devices are defined by
  other rules.

This still kind of wants there to be more than one device, though.

DIS: Re: BUS: Mad Engineer weekly random rule selection

[ais523 via agora-discussion]

On Tue, 2021-12-14 at 05:11 +0100, nethack4.org dicebot via agora-
business wrote:
> The dice roll was: 92
> This is R2528, Voting Methods.

For reference:
{{{
  Each Agoran decision has a voting method, which must be
  AI-majority, instant runoff, or first-past-the-post. The voting
  method is that specified by the authorizing authority, or
  first-past-the-post by default.
  
  Each Agoran decision has a set of valid options (the choices that
  the voters are being asked to select from) and valid votes (the
  ways in which the voters can express their opinion or lack
  thereof. For AI-majority decisions, the valid options are FOR and
  AGAINST; for other decisions, the valid options are defined by
  other rules.
  
  The valid votes on an Agoran decision are:
  
  1. PRESENT;
  
  2. The valid conditional votes, as defined by rules of power at
 least that of this rule; and
  
  3. For an instant runoff decision, the ordered lists of entities.
  
  4. For any other decision, the valid options.
}}}

Any suggestions?

-- 
ais523
Mad Engineer

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Mad Engineer weekly random rule selection

[Falsifian via agora-discussion]

On Wed, Dec 08, 2021 at 10:15:49AM -0500, Jason Cobb via agora-discussion wrote:
> On 12/7/21 21:53, Falsifian via agora-discussion wrote:
> > On Tue, Dec 07, 2021 at 09:18:28PM +, Trigon via agora-discussion wrote:
> >> El 06/12/2021 a las 18:51, ais523 via agora-discussion escribió:
> >>> On Mon, 2021-12-06 at 19:48 +0100, nethack4.org dicebot via agora-
> >>> business wrote:
>  The dice roll was: 39
>  This is R2125, Regulated Actions.
> >>> For reference:
> >>> {{{
> >>>An action is regulated if: (1) the Rules limit, allow, enable, or
> >>>permit its performance; (2) the Rules describe the circumstances
> >>>under which the action would succeed or fail; or (3) the action
> >>>would, as part of its effect, modify information for which some
> >>>player is required to be a recordkeepor.
> >>>A Regulated Action CAN only be performed as described by the
> >>>Rules, and only using the methods explicitly specified in the
> >>>Rules for performing the given action. The Rules SHALL NOT be
> >>>interpreted so as to proscribe unregulated actions.
> >>> }}}
> >>>
> >>> Any suggestions?
> >>>
> >> An action is regulated if: (1) the devices limit, allow, enable, or permit
> >> its performance; (2) the devices describe the circumstances under which the
> >> action would succeed or fail; or (3) the action would, as part of its
> >> effect, modify information for which some player is required to be a
> >> recordkeepor.
> >>
> >> -- 
> >> Trigon
> > Hm... I initially was thinking this power-1 rule can't mess with the 
> > (power-3)
> > definition of regulated action. But I guess the Rules are allowed to make 
> > more
> > things regulated, so maybe it would work.
> >
> 
> I don't think that affects the power-3 implications of actions being
> "regulated", but it might mean that the power-1 rule attempts to impose
> all restrictions that the definition implies?
> 
> -- 
> Jason Cobb
> 
> Assessor, Rulekeepor, S​tonemason

Maybe. If that works, though, wouldn't that (coincidentally) meet the
R2125 conditions for an action to be regulated? E.g. if R2654
successfully limits actions that "the devices limit ..." etc, then in
fact that meets condition (1) of R2125, so those actions would be
regulated.

-- 
Falsifian

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Mad Engineer weekly random rule selection

[Jason Cobb via agora-discussion]

On 12/7/21 21:53, Falsifian via agora-discussion wrote:
> On Tue, Dec 07, 2021 at 09:18:28PM +, Trigon via agora-discussion wrote:
>> El 06/12/2021 a las 18:51, ais523 via agora-discussion escribió:
>>> On Mon, 2021-12-06 at 19:48 +0100, nethack4.org dicebot via agora-
>>> business wrote:
 The dice roll was: 39
 This is R2125, Regulated Actions.
>>> For reference:
>>> {{{
>>>An action is regulated if: (1) the Rules limit, allow, enable, or
>>>permit its performance; (2) the Rules describe the circumstances
>>>under which the action would succeed or fail; or (3) the action
>>>would, as part of its effect, modify information for which some
>>>player is required to be a recordkeepor.
>>>A Regulated Action CAN only be performed as described by the
>>>Rules, and only using the methods explicitly specified in the
>>>Rules for performing the given action. The Rules SHALL NOT be
>>>interpreted so as to proscribe unregulated actions.
>>> }}}
>>>
>>> Any suggestions?
>>>
>> An action is regulated if: (1) the devices limit, allow, enable, or permit
>> its performance; (2) the devices describe the circumstances under which the
>> action would succeed or fail; or (3) the action would, as part of its
>> effect, modify information for which some player is required to be a
>> recordkeepor.
>>
>> -- 
>> Trigon
> Hm... I initially was thinking this power-1 rule can't mess with the (power-3)
> definition of regulated action. But I guess the Rules are allowed to make more
> things regulated, so maybe it would work.
>

I don't think that affects the power-3 implications of actions being
"regulated", but it might mean that the power-1 rule attempts to impose
all restrictions that the definition implies?

-- 
Jason Cobb

Assessor, Rulekeepor, S​tonemason

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Mad Engineer weekly random rule selection

[Falsifian via agora-discussion]

On Tue, Dec 07, 2021 at 09:18:28PM +, Trigon via agora-discussion wrote:
> El 06/12/2021 a las 18:51, ais523 via agora-discussion escribió:
> > On Mon, 2021-12-06 at 19:48 +0100, nethack4.org dicebot via agora-
> > business wrote:
> > > The dice roll was: 39
> > > This is R2125, Regulated Actions.
> > 
> > For reference:
> > {{{
> >An action is regulated if: (1) the Rules limit, allow, enable, or
> >permit its performance; (2) the Rules describe the circumstances
> >under which the action would succeed or fail; or (3) the action
> >would, as part of its effect, modify information for which some
> >player is required to be a recordkeepor.
> >A Regulated Action CAN only be performed as described by the
> >Rules, and only using the methods explicitly specified in the
> >Rules for performing the given action. The Rules SHALL NOT be
> >interpreted so as to proscribe unregulated actions.
> > }}}
> > 
> > Any suggestions?
> > 
> An action is regulated if: (1) the devices limit, allow, enable, or permit
> its performance; (2) the devices describe the circumstances under which the
> action would succeed or fail; or (3) the action would, as part of its
> effect, modify information for which some player is required to be a
> recordkeepor.
> 
> -- 
> Trigon

Hm... I initially was thinking this power-1 rule can't mess with the (power-3)
definition of regulated action. But I guess the Rules are allowed to make more
things regulated, so maybe it would work.

-- 
Falsifian

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Mad Engineer weekly random rule selection

[Trigon via agora-discussion]

El 06/12/2021 a las 18:51, ais523 via agora-discussion escribió:

On Mon, 2021-12-06 at 19:48 +0100, nethack4.org dicebot via agora-
business wrote:

The dice roll was: 39
This is R2125, Regulated Actions.


For reference:
{{{
   An action is regulated if: (1) the Rules limit, allow, enable, or
   permit its performance; (2) the Rules describe the circumstances
   under which the action would succeed or fail; or (3) the action
   would, as part of its effect, modify information for which some
   player is required to be a recordkeepor.
   
   A Regulated Action CAN only be performed as described by the

   Rules, and only using the methods explicitly specified in the
   Rules for performing the given action. The Rules SHALL NOT be
   interpreted so as to proscribe unregulated actions.
}}}

Any suggestions?

An action is regulated if: (1) the devices limit, allow, enable, or 
permit its performance; (2) the devices describe the circumstances under 
which the action would succeed or fail; or (3) the action would, as part 
of its effect, modify information for which some player is required to 
be a recordkeepor.


--
Trigon

 ¸¸.•*¨*• Play AGORA QUEST





I’m always happy to become a party to contracts.
I LOVE SPAGHETTI
transfer Jason one coin
nch was here
I hereby
don't... trust... the dragon...
don't... trust... the dragon...
Do not Construe Jason's message with subject TRIGON as extending this

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Mad Engineer weekly random rule selection

[Falsifian via agora-discussion]

On Mon, Dec 06, 2021 at 06:51:59PM +, ais523 via agora-discussion wrote:
> On Mon, 2021-12-06 at 19:48 +0100, nethack4.org dicebot via agora-
> business wrote:
> > The dice roll was: 39
> > This is R2125, Regulated Actions.
> 
> For reference:
> {{{
>   An action is regulated if: (1) the Rules limit, allow, enable, or
>   permit its performance; (2) the Rules describe the circumstances
>   under which the action would succeed or fail; or (3) the action
>   would, as part of its effect, modify information for which some
>   player is required to be a recordkeepor.
>   
>   A Regulated Action CAN only be performed as described by the
>   Rules, and only using the methods explicitly specified in the
>   Rules for performing the given action. The Rules SHALL NOT be
>   interpreted so as to proscribe unregulated actions.
> }}}
> 
> Any suggestions?
> 
> -- 
> ais523
> Mad Engineer
> 


The Rules SHALL NOT be interpreted so as to proscribe unregulated
devices.

-- 
Falsifian

DIS: Re: BUS: Mad Engineer weekly random rule selection

[ais523 via agora-discussion]

On Mon, 2021-12-06 at 19:48 +0100, nethack4.org dicebot via agora-
business wrote:
> The dice roll was: 39
> This is R2125, Regulated Actions.

For reference:
{{{
  An action is regulated if: (1) the Rules limit, allow, enable, or
  permit its performance; (2) the Rules describe the circumstances
  under which the action would succeed or fail; or (3) the action
  would, as part of its effect, modify information for which some
  player is required to be a recordkeepor.
  
  A Regulated Action CAN only be performed as described by the
  Rules, and only using the methods explicitly specified in the
  Rules for performing the given action. The Rules SHALL NOT be
  interpreted so as to proscribe unregulated actions.
}}}

Any suggestions?

-- 
ais523
Mad Engineer

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Mad Engineer weekly random rule selection

[Ørjan Johansen via agora-discussion]

El 29/11/2021 a las 07:19, ais523 via agora-discussion escribió:


  Each Agoran decision has a set of valid options (the choices 
that

   the voters are being asked to select from) and valid votes (the
   ways in which the voters can express their opinion or lack
   thereof. For AI-majority decisions, the valid options are FOR and
   AGAINST; for other decisions, the valid options are defined by
   other rules.



Any suggestions?


Someone might want to clean that missing right parenthesis.

Although, now that I'm reading it, rule 2221 seems not to mention 
"punctuation" anywhere, and I'm not sure that it's implied by anything 
else.


Greetings,
Ørjan.

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Mad Engineer weekly random rule selection

[Trigon via agora-discussion]

El 29/11/2021 a las 07:19, ais523 via agora-discussion escribió:

On Mon, 2021-11-29 at 08:17 +0100, nethack4.org dicebot via agora-
business wrote:

The dice roll was: 92
This is R2528, Voting Methods.


For reference:
{{{
   Each Agoran decision has a voting method, which must be
   AI-majority, instant runoff, or first-past-the-post. The voting
   method is that specified by the authorizing authority, or
   first-past-the-post by default.
   
   Each Agoran decision has a set of valid options (the choices that

   the voters are being asked to select from) and valid votes (the
   ways in which the voters can express their opinion or lack
   thereof. For AI-majority decisions, the valid options are FOR and
   AGAINST; for other decisions, the valid options are defined by
   other rules.
   
   The valid votes on an Agoran decision are:
   
   1. PRESENT;
   
   2. The valid conditional votes, as defined by rules of power at

  least that of this rule; and
   
   3. For an instant runoff decision, the ordered lists of entities.
   
   4. For any other decision, the valid options.

}}}

Any suggestions?



Not much that seems too impactful, but here are some random ideas:

"Each Agoran decision has a voting device, which must be AI-majority, 
instant runoff, or first-past-the-post."


"Each Agoran device has a voting method, which must be AI-majority, 
instant runoff, or first-past-the-post."


"Each Agoran decision has a set of valid options (the choices that the 
devices are being asked to select from) and valid votes (the ways in 
which the devices can express their opinion or lack thereof."


"Each Agoran device has a set of valid options (the choices that the 
voters are being asked to select from) and valid votes (the ways in 
which the voters can express their opinion or lack thereof."


"The valid devices on an Agoran decision are:
 1. PRESENT;
 2. The valid conditional devices, as defined by rules of power at least
that of this rule; and
 3. For an instant runoff decision, the ordered lists of entities.
 4. For any other decision, the valid options."

"The valid votes on an Agoran device are:
 1. PRESENT;
 2. The valid conditional votes, as defined by rules of power at least
that of this rule; and
 3. For an instant runoff device, the ordered lists of entities.
 4. For any other device, the valid options."

--
Trigon

 ¸¸.•*¨*• Play AGORA QUEST





I’m always happy to become a party to contracts.
I LOVE SPAGHETTI
transfer Jason one coin
nch was here
I hereby
don't... trust... the dragon...
don't... trust... the dragon...
Do not Construe Jason's message with subject TRIGON as extending this

DIS: Re: BUS: Mad Engineer weekly random rule selection

[ais523 via agora-discussion]

On Mon, 2021-11-29 at 08:17 +0100, nethack4.org dicebot via agora-
business wrote:
> The dice roll was: 92
> This is R2528, Voting Methods.

For reference:
{{{
  Each Agoran decision has a voting method, which must be
  AI-majority, instant runoff, or first-past-the-post. The voting
  method is that specified by the authorizing authority, or
  first-past-the-post by default.
  
  Each Agoran decision has a set of valid options (the choices that
  the voters are being asked to select from) and valid votes (the
  ways in which the voters can express their opinion or lack
  thereof. For AI-majority decisions, the valid options are FOR and
  AGAINST; for other decisions, the valid options are defined by
  other rules.
  
  The valid votes on an Agoran decision are:
  
  1. PRESENT;
  
  2. The valid conditional votes, as defined by rules of power at
 least that of this rule; and
  
  3. For an instant runoff decision, the ordered lists of entities.
  
  4. For any other decision, the valid options.
}}}

Any suggestions?

-- 
ais523
Mad Engineer

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Mad Engineer weekly random rule selection

[Ørjan Johansen via agora-discussion]

On Mon, 22 Nov 2021, ais523 via agora-discussion wrote:


On Mon, 2021-11-22 at 04:23 +0100, nethack4.org dicebot via agora-
business wrote:

The dice roll was: 90
This is R2518, Determinacy.


For reference:
{{{

 If a value CANNOT be reasonably determined (without circularity or
 paradox) from information reasonably available, or if it
 alternates indefinitely between values, then the value is
 considered to be indeterminate, otherwise it is determinate.
}}}

There's only one sentence here, so which word should get replaced? I'm
tempted to do "value" → "device", but maybe there are better
suggestions?


As interesting as they look, I suspect all the other options 
("circularity", "paradox", "information") are in pretty direct conflict 
with R2518 itself.


Greetings,
Ørjan.

DIS: Re: BUS: Mad Engineer weekly random rule selection

[ais523 via agora-discussion]

On Mon, 2021-11-22 at 04:23 +0100, nethack4.org dicebot via agora-
business wrote:
> The dice roll was: 90
> This is R2518, Determinacy.

For reference:
{{{

  If a value CANNOT be reasonably determined (without circularity or
  paradox) from information reasonably available, or if it
  alternates indefinitely between values, then the value is
  considered to be indeterminate, otherwise it is determinate.
}}}

There's only one sentence here, so which word should get replaced? I'm
tempted to do "value" → "device", but maybe there are better
suggestions?

-- 
ais523
Mad Engineer

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Mad Engineer weekly random rule selection

[ais523 via agora-discussion]

On Tue, 2021-11-16 at 10:42 +1100, Sarah S. via agora-discussion wrote:
> "   The Arbitor is an office, responsible for the administration of
>   justice in a manner that is fair for the Device, if not for the rest
>   of Agora."

Sadly, that replaces a pronoun rather than a noun.

-- 
ais523
Mad Engineer

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Mad Engineer weekly random rule selection

[Sarah S. via agora-discussion]

"   The Arbitor is an office, responsible for the administration of
  justice in a manner that is fair for the Device, if not for the rest
  of Agora."

On Tue, Nov 16, 2021 at 4:25 AM Kerim Aydin via agora-discussion <
agora-discussion@agoranomic.org> wrote:

>
> On 11/15/2021 8:48 AM, Trigon via agora-discussion wrote:
> > El 15/11/2021 a las 15:02, ais523 via agora-discussion escribió:
> >> On Mon, 2021-11-15 at 16:00 +0100, nethack4.org dicebot via agora-
> >> business wrote:
> >>
> >> Lots of nice short sentences here, so it may well be possible to come
> >> up with something that works quite well.
> >>
> >
> > Suggestions:
> >
> > (1) funny, but may take a lot of upkeep from officers
> >> When an open device's judge is unassigned, the Arbitor CAN assign any
> >> eligible player to be its judge by announcement, and SHALL do so in a >
> timely fashion after it becomes an open and unassigned device.
> >
> > (2) similar appeal, but less upkeep
> >> If a device has no judge assigned, then any player eligible to judge >
> that device CAN assign it to emself without 3 objections.
> >
> > either of these could lead to fun CFJs.
> >
>
> If these are implemented, I wonder if we could make the argument that the
> device has a whole separate judicial process for determining how it works.
>  I think this could be done in common law - i.e. if something like the
> above is inserted (either option), an actual CFJ about the device could be
> judged "DISMISS - ask the device's assigned judge instead" to set the
> precedent.
>
> -G.
>
>

-- 
--
R. Lee

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Mad Engineer weekly random rule selection

[Kerim Aydin via agora-discussion]

On 11/15/2021 8:48 AM, Trigon via agora-discussion wrote:
> El 15/11/2021 a las 15:02, ais523 via agora-discussion escribió:
>> On Mon, 2021-11-15 at 16:00 +0100, nethack4.org dicebot via agora-
>> business wrote:
>>
>> Lots of nice short sentences here, so it may well be possible to come
>> up with something that works quite well.
>>
> 
> Suggestions:
> 
> (1) funny, but may take a lot of upkeep from officers
>> When an open device's judge is unassigned, the Arbitor CAN assign any
>> eligible player to be its judge by announcement, and SHALL do so in a > 
>> timely fashion after it becomes an open and unassigned device.
> 
> (2) similar appeal, but less upkeep
>> If a device has no judge assigned, then any player eligible to judge > that 
>> device CAN assign it to emself without 3 objections.
> 
> either of these could lead to fun CFJs.
> 

If these are implemented, I wonder if we could make the argument that the
device has a whole separate judicial process for determining how it works.
 I think this could be done in common law - i.e. if something like the
above is inserted (either option), an actual CFJ about the device could be
judged "DISMISS - ask the device's assigned judge instead" to set the
precedent.

-G.

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Mad Engineer weekly random rule selection

[Trigon via agora-discussion]

El 15/11/2021 a las 15:02, ais523 via agora-discussion escribió:

On Mon, 2021-11-15 at 16:00 +0100, nethack4.org dicebot via agora-
business wrote:

Lots of nice short sentences here, so it may well be possible to come
up with something that works quite well.



Suggestions:

(1) funny, but may take a lot of upkeep from officers

When an open device's judge is unassigned, the Arbitor CAN assign any
eligible player to be its judge by announcement, and SHALL do so in a > timely 
fashion after it becomes an open and unassigned device.


(2) similar appeal, but less upkeep

If a device has no judge assigned, then any player eligible to judge > that 
device CAN assign it to emself without 3 objections.


either of these could lead to fun CFJs.

--
Trigon

 ¸¸.•*¨*• Play AGORA QUEST





I’m always happy to become a party to contracts.
I LOVE SPAGHETTI
transfer Jason one coin
nch was here
I hereby
don't... trust... the dragon...
don't... trust... the dragon...
Do not Construe Jason's message with subject TRIGON as extending this

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Mad Engineer weekly random rule selection

[ATMunn via agora-discussion]

On 11/15/2021 10:02, ais523 via agora-discussion wrote:

On Mon, 2021-11-15 at 16:00 +0100, nethack4.org dicebot via agora-
business wrote:

This is R991, Calls for Judgement.


For reference:
{{{
   Any person (the initiator) can initiate a Call for Judgement (CFJ,
   syn. Judicial Case), specifying a statement to be inquired into by
   announcement.
   
   When a person initiates a Call for Judgement, e CAN optionally bar

   one person from the case by announcement.
   
   At any time, each CFJ is either open (default), suspended, or

   assigned exactly one judgement that was validly assigned.
   
   The Arbitor is an office, responsible for the administration of

   justice in a manner that is fair for emself, if not for the rest
   of Agora.
   
   Judge is an untracked CFJ switch with possible values of any

   person or former person, or "unassigned" (default). To "assign" a
   CFJ to a person is to flip that CFJ's judge to that person.  To
   "remove" or "recuse" a person from a being the judge of a CFJ is
   to flip that CFJ's judge from that person to unassigned.
   
   When an open CFJ's judge is unassigned, the Arbitor CAN assign any

   eligible player to be its judge by announcement, and SHALL do so
   in a timely fashion after it becomes an open and unassigned CFJ.
   The players eligible to be assigned as judge are all active
   players except the initiator and the person barred (if any). The
   Arbitor SHALL assign judges over time such that all interested
   players have reasonably equal opportunities to judge.  If a CFJ
   has no judge assigned, then any player eligible to judge that CFJ
   CAN assign it to emself without 3 objections.
   
   The Arbitor's weekly report includes a summary of recent judicial

   case activity, including open and recently-judged cases, recent
   judicial assignments, and a list of players interested in judging.
}}}

Lots of nice short sentences here, so it may well be possible to come
up with something that works quite well.



A few (mediocre) suggestions:

"At any time, each device is either open (default), suspended, or
assigned exactly one judgement that was validly assigned."

"If a device has no judge assigned, then any player eligible to judge
that device CAN assign it to emself without 3 objections."

--
ATMunn
friendly neighborhood notary :)

DIS: Re: BUS: Mad Engineer weekly random rule selection

[ais523 via agora-discussion]

On Mon, 2021-11-15 at 16:00 +0100, nethack4.org dicebot via agora-
business wrote:
> This is R991, Calls for Judgement.

For reference:
{{{
  Any person (the initiator) can initiate a Call for Judgement (CFJ,
  syn. Judicial Case), specifying a statement to be inquired into by
  announcement.
  
  When a person initiates a Call for Judgement, e CAN optionally bar
  one person from the case by announcement.
  
  At any time, each CFJ is either open (default), suspended, or
  assigned exactly one judgement that was validly assigned.
  
  The Arbitor is an office, responsible for the administration of
  justice in a manner that is fair for emself, if not for the rest
  of Agora.
  
  Judge is an untracked CFJ switch with possible values of any
  person or former person, or "unassigned" (default). To "assign" a
  CFJ to a person is to flip that CFJ's judge to that person.  To
  "remove" or "recuse" a person from a being the judge of a CFJ is
  to flip that CFJ's judge from that person to unassigned.
  
  When an open CFJ's judge is unassigned, the Arbitor CAN assign any
  eligible player to be its judge by announcement, and SHALL do so
  in a timely fashion after it becomes an open and unassigned CFJ.
  The players eligible to be assigned as judge are all active
  players except the initiator and the person barred (if any). The
  Arbitor SHALL assign judges over time such that all interested
  players have reasonably equal opportunities to judge.  If a CFJ
  has no judge assigned, then any player eligible to judge that CFJ
  CAN assign it to emself without 3 objections.
  
  The Arbitor's weekly report includes a summary of recent judicial
  case activity, including open and recently-judged cases, recent
  judicial assignments, and a list of players interested in judging.
}}}

Lots of nice short sentences here, so it may well be possible to come
up with something that works quite well.

-- 
ais523
Mad Engineer

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Mad Engineer weekly random rule selection

[Sarah S. via agora-discussion]

i know it wouldnt do anything (yet), yes

On Tue, Nov 9, 2021 at 1:25 PM Ørjan Johansen via agora-discussion <
agora-discussion@agoranomic.org> wrote:

> On Tue, 9 Nov 2021, Sarah S. via agora-discussion wrote:
>
> > "Device is secured with Power Threshold 3."
>
> Conflicts with Rule 1688, which only allows Thresholds lower than the
> Power of the securing Rule.
>
> Greetings,
> Ørjan.
>


-- 
--
R. Lee

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Mad Engineer weekly random rule selection

[Ørjan Johansen via agora-discussion]

On Tue, 9 Nov 2021, Sarah S. via agora-discussion wrote:


"Device is secured with Power Threshold 3."


Conflicts with Rule 1688, which only allows Thresholds lower than the 
Power of the securing Rule.


Greetings,
Ørjan.

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Mad Engineer weekly random rule selection

[Sarah S. via agora-discussion]

"Device is secured with Power Threshold 3."


On Mon, Nov 8, 2021 at 1:33 PM Falsifian via agora-discussion <
agora-discussion@agoranomic.org> wrote:

> On Mon, Nov 08, 2021 at 12:04:11AM +, ais523 via agora-discussion
> wrote:
> > On Mon, 2021-11-08 at 01:02 +0100, nethack4.org dicebot via agora-
> > business wrote:
> > > The dice roll was: 24
> > > This is R1551, Ratification.
> >
> > For reference:
> > {{{
> >   When a document or statement (hereafter "document") is ratified,
> >   rules to the contrary notwithstanding, the gamestate is modified
> >   to what it would be if, at the time the ratified document was
> >   published, the gamestate had been minimally modified to make the
> >   ratified document as true and accurate as possible; however, if
> >   the document explicitly specifies a different past time as being
> >   the time the document was true, the specified time is used to
> >   determine the minimal modifications. Such a modification cannot
> >   add inconsistencies between the gamestate and the rules, and it
> >   cannot include rule changes unless the ratified document
> >   explicitly and unambiguously recites either the changes or the
> >   resulting properties of the rule(s). If no such modification is
> >   possible, or multiple substantially distinct possible
> >   modifications would be equally appropriate, the ratification
> >   fails.
> >
> >   An internally inconsistent document generally cannot be ratified;
> >   however, if such a document can be divided into a summary section
> >   and a main section, where the only purpose of the summary section
> >   is to summarize information in the main section, and the main
> >   section is internally consistent, ratification of the document
> >   proceeds as if it contained only the main section.
> >
> >   Text purportedly about previous instances of ratification (e.g. a
> >   report's date of last ratification) is excluded from ratification.
> >   The rules may define additional information that is considered to
> >   be part of the document for the purposes of ratification; such
> >   definitions are secured at a Power Threshold of 3.
> >
> >   Ratification is secured with Power Threshold 3.
> > }}}
> >
> > A pity that the sentences are so long on average, which somewhat limits
> > what we can do with this. Any suggestions?
> >
> > --
> > ais523
> > Mad Engineer
>
> Text purportedly about previous instances of device (e.g. a report's
> date of last device) is excluded from device.
>
> Not quite grammatical, but maybe it would interact with the device
> ceasing to exist.
>
> --
> Falsifian
>


-- 
--
R. Lee

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Mad Engineer weekly random rule selection

[Falsifian via agora-discussion]

On Mon, Nov 08, 2021 at 12:04:11AM +, ais523 via agora-discussion wrote:
> On Mon, 2021-11-08 at 01:02 +0100, nethack4.org dicebot via agora-
> business wrote:
> > The dice roll was: 24
> > This is R1551, Ratification.
> 
> For reference:
> {{{
>   When a document or statement (hereafter "document") is ratified,
>   rules to the contrary notwithstanding, the gamestate is modified
>   to what it would be if, at the time the ratified document was
>   published, the gamestate had been minimally modified to make the
>   ratified document as true and accurate as possible; however, if
>   the document explicitly specifies a different past time as being
>   the time the document was true, the specified time is used to
>   determine the minimal modifications. Such a modification cannot
>   add inconsistencies between the gamestate and the rules, and it
>   cannot include rule changes unless the ratified document
>   explicitly and unambiguously recites either the changes or the
>   resulting properties of the rule(s). If no such modification is
>   possible, or multiple substantially distinct possible
>   modifications would be equally appropriate, the ratification
>   fails.
>   
>   An internally inconsistent document generally cannot be ratified;
>   however, if such a document can be divided into a summary section
>   and a main section, where the only purpose of the summary section
>   is to summarize information in the main section, and the main
>   section is internally consistent, ratification of the document
>   proceeds as if it contained only the main section.
>   
>   Text purportedly about previous instances of ratification (e.g. a
>   report's date of last ratification) is excluded from ratification.
>   The rules may define additional information that is considered to
>   be part of the document for the purposes of ratification; such
>   definitions are secured at a Power Threshold of 3.
>   
>   Ratification is secured with Power Threshold 3.
> }}}
> 
> A pity that the sentences are so long on average, which somewhat limits
> what we can do with this. Any suggestions?
> 
> -- 
> ais523
> Mad Engineer

Text purportedly about previous instances of device (e.g. a report's
date of last device) is excluded from device.

Not quite grammatical, but maybe it would interact with the device
ceasing to exist.

-- 
Falsifian

DIS: Re: BUS: Mad Engineer weekly random rule selection

[ais523 via agora-discussion]

On Mon, 2021-11-08 at 01:02 +0100, nethack4.org dicebot via agora-
business wrote:
> The dice roll was: 24
> This is R1551, Ratification.

For reference:
{{{
  When a document or statement (hereafter "document") is ratified,
  rules to the contrary notwithstanding, the gamestate is modified
  to what it would be if, at the time the ratified document was
  published, the gamestate had been minimally modified to make the
  ratified document as true and accurate as possible; however, if
  the document explicitly specifies a different past time as being
  the time the document was true, the specified time is used to
  determine the minimal modifications. Such a modification cannot
  add inconsistencies between the gamestate and the rules, and it
  cannot include rule changes unless the ratified document
  explicitly and unambiguously recites either the changes or the
  resulting properties of the rule(s). If no such modification is
  possible, or multiple substantially distinct possible
  modifications would be equally appropriate, the ratification
  fails.
  
  An internally inconsistent document generally cannot be ratified;
  however, if such a document can be divided into a summary section
  and a main section, where the only purpose of the summary section
  is to summarize information in the main section, and the main
  section is internally consistent, ratification of the document
  proceeds as if it contained only the main section.
  
  Text purportedly about previous instances of ratification (e.g. a
  report's date of last ratification) is excluded from ratification.
  The rules may define additional information that is considered to
  be part of the document for the purposes of ratification; such
  definitions are secured at a Power Threshold of 3.
  
  Ratification is secured with Power Threshold 3.
}}}

A pity that the sentences are so long on average, which somewhat limits
what we can do with this. Any suggestions?

-- 
ais523
Mad Engineer

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Mad Engineer weekly random rule selection

[Sarah S. via agora-discussion]

  "The Notary CAN destroy a device Without Objection, but SHOULD NOT
  do so unless the device no longer serves any significant purpose."

On Mon, Nov 1, 2021 at 12:27 PM Jason Cobb via agora-discussion <
agora-discussion@agoranomic.org> wrote:

> On 10/31/21 20:59, ais523 via agora-discussion wrote:
> > On Sun, 2021-10-31 at 17:47 -0700, Kerim Aydin via agora-discussion
> > wrote:
> >> The self-destruct timer is hard to resist:
> >>>The time window of a device is W days, where W is the value
> >>>explicitly stated by the device, or 60 if the device does not
> >>>explicitly state a value. A device ceases to exist at the end of
> >>>its time window.
> >> (not sure I'd support it tho).
> > I'm not entirely sure what would happen if the self-destruct expired -
> > it would cause the device to cease to exist, but it couldn't modify the
> > rules defining it (it doesn't meet R105's requirement to post the full
> > text of the change).
> >
> > Rule 2654 does win precedence battles with rule 2655, which is the more
> > interesting way round for it to happen (if the numbers were the other
> > way round, I'd say this change would unambiguously do nothing).
> >
> > The *other* interesting thing about this is, of course, that it only
> > works while the device is in a given position, which complicates
> > matters still further (especially if the Device doesn't exist at the
> > time).
> >
> > As a side note, "ceases to exist at the end of its time window" appears
> > to be a point check - it wouldn't cause it to cease to exist *after*
> > the end of its time window. The Device will have existed for more than
> > 60 days by the time the intent can be resolved, but it's unclear at
> > what point in time the time window would start.
> >
> > All in all, a very fertile ground for CFJs! The main drawback would be
> > a risk of accidentally ending things early, but it couldn't destroy the
> > rules defining the Device - just potentially the Device itself, and we
> > could presumably recreate it by proposal.
> >
>
> I don't think the sole instance of a singleton switch can be permanently
> destroyed by an instantaneous destruction. Even if the destruction
> worked, the rule defining the switch should immediately recreate it (in
> the same way that it immediately creates it when first coming into
> effect after being enacted).
>
> --
> Jason Cobb
>
> Assessor, Rulekeepor, S​tonemason
>
>

-- 
--
R. Lee

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Mad Engineer weekly random rule selection

[Jason Cobb via agora-discussion]

On 10/31/21 20:59, ais523 via agora-discussion wrote:
> On Sun, 2021-10-31 at 17:47 -0700, Kerim Aydin via agora-discussion
> wrote:
>> The self-destruct timer is hard to resist:
>>>The time window of a device is W days, where W is the value
>>>explicitly stated by the device, or 60 if the device does not
>>>explicitly state a value. A device ceases to exist at the end of
>>>its time window.
>> (not sure I'd support it tho).
> I'm not entirely sure what would happen if the self-destruct expired -
> it would cause the device to cease to exist, but it couldn't modify the
> rules defining it (it doesn't meet R105's requirement to post the full
> text of the change).
>
> Rule 2654 does win precedence battles with rule 2655, which is the more
> interesting way round for it to happen (if the numbers were the other
> way round, I'd say this change would unambiguously do nothing).
>
> The *other* interesting thing about this is, of course, that it only
> works while the device is in a given position, which complicates
> matters still further (especially if the Device doesn't exist at the
> time).
>
> As a side note, "ceases to exist at the end of its time window" appears
> to be a point check - it wouldn't cause it to cease to exist *after*
> the end of its time window. The Device will have existed for more than
> 60 days by the time the intent can be resolved, but it's unclear at
> what point in time the time window would start.
>
> All in all, a very fertile ground for CFJs! The main drawback would be
> a risk of accidentally ending things early, but it couldn't destroy the
> rules defining the Device - just potentially the Device itself, and we
> could presumably recreate it by proposal.
>

I don't think the sole instance of a singleton switch can be permanently
destroyed by an instantaneous destruction. Even if the destruction
worked, the rule defining the switch should immediately recreate it (in
the same way that it immediately creates it when first coming into
effect after being enacted).

-- 
Jason Cobb

Assessor, Rulekeepor, S​tonemason

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Mad Engineer weekly random rule selection

[ais523 via agora-discussion]

On Sun, 2021-10-31 at 17:47 -0700, Kerim Aydin via agora-discussion
wrote:
> The self-destruct timer is hard to resist:
> >The time window of a device is W days, where W is the value
> >explicitly stated by the device, or 60 if the device does not
> >explicitly state a value. A device ceases to exist at the end of
> >its time window.
> (not sure I'd support it tho).

I'm not entirely sure what would happen if the self-destruct expired -
it would cause the device to cease to exist, but it couldn't modify the
rules defining it (it doesn't meet R105's requirement to post the full
text of the change).

Rule 2654 does win precedence battles with rule 2655, which is the more
interesting way round for it to happen (if the numbers were the other
way round, I'd say this change would unambiguously do nothing).

The *other* interesting thing about this is, of course, that it only
works while the device is in a given position, which complicates
matters still further (especially if the Device doesn't exist at the
time).

As a side note, "ceases to exist at the end of its time window" appears
to be a point check - it wouldn't cause it to cease to exist *after*
the end of its time window. The Device will have existed for more than
60 days by the time the intent can be resolved, but it's unclear at
what point in time the time window would start.

All in all, a very fertile ground for CFJs! The main drawback would be
a risk of accidentally ending things early, but it couldn't destroy the
rules defining the Device - just potentially the Device itself, and we
could presumably recreate it by proposal.

-- 
ais523
Mad Engineer

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Mad Engineer weekly random rule selection

[Kerim Aydin via agora-discussion]

The self-destruct timer is hard to resist:
>   The time window of a device is W days, where W is the value
>   explicitly stated by the device, or 60 if the device does not
>   explicitly state a value. A device ceases to exist at the end of
>   its time window.
(not sure I'd support it tho).

DIS: Re: BUS: Mad Engineer weekly random rule selection

[ais523 via agora-discussion]

On Mon, 2021-11-01 at 01:08 +0100, nethack4.org dicebot via agora-
business wrote:
> The dice roll was: 69
> This is R2450, Pledges.

For reference:
{{{
  If a consenting Player makes a clear public pledge (syn. Oath) to
  perform (or refrain from performing) certain actions, then
  breaking the pledge is ILLEGAL; doing so is the Class N crime of
  Oathbreaking, where N is the value explicitly stated by the
  pledge, or 2 if the pledge does not explicitly state a value.
  Allowing a pledge to expire without carrying out an action one
  pledged to do in it constitutes breaking the pledge.
  
  The time window of a pledge is W days, where W is the value
  explicitly stated by the pledge, or 60 if the pledge does not
  explicitly state a value. A pledge ceases to exist at the end of
  its time window.
  
  If breaking the pledge harms specific other parties, the Referee
  SHOULD solicit the opinion of those parties in determining an
  appropriate fine.
  
  The Notary CAN destroy a pledge Without Objection, but SHOULD NOT
  do so unless the pledge no longer serves any significant purpose.
}}}

Any suggestions?

-- 
ais523
Mad Engineer

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Mad Engineer weekly random rule selection

[Sarah S. via agora-discussion]

Use the first sentence and replace Rule with Device. A royal
paradeimbued in this very Device. The rulekeepor should place this
Device.

On Mon, Oct 25, 2021 at 11:12 AM ais523 via agora-discussion <
agora-discussion@agoranomic.org> wrote:

> On Mon, 2021-10-25 at 02:07 +0200, nethack4.org dicebot via agora-
> business wrote:
> > The dice roll was: 82
> > This is R2486, The Royal Parade.
>
> For reference:
>
> {{{ _
>   _\ /_
>   >_X_<
>.---._  /_\  _.---.
>  /`.---._`{/ \}`_.---.`\
> | /   ___`{\_/}`___   \ |
> \ \."`*  `"{_}"`  *`"./ /
>  \ \  )\  _\ /_  /(  / /
>   \ *<()( >_X_< )()>* /
>|._)/._./_\._.\(_.|
>   jgs  |() () () () () ()|
><><>><>
>   `"""`
>IN CELEBRATION of Alexis being crowned Princess of Agora,
> without prejudice to Any before or since
> who may come to hold a Title
> whether Patent or otherwise;
>   IT IS HEREBY PROCLAIMED that a Royal Parade be established,
> imbued in this very Rule,
> which shall travel around Agora to Rules of import;
>   AND THEREFORE, the Rulekeepor SHOULD place this Rule
> near recently-amended rules of high Power;
>   AND FURTHERMORE, additions to this Parade are most welcome
>when Events suiting the honour should occur.
>   NEXT UP in the Parade comes the Discordian Court:  G. the
>Grand Vizier is arguing with Jason the Untitled, while
>nix, Court Anarchist, is cramming cancelled ballots into
>eir pockets.
> }}}
>
> I don't think this rule is particularly suited to the Mad Scientist
> fomat, but I have to try anyway. Any suggestions?
>
> As far as I can tell, there are only two sentences here. The second one
> may be easier to work with than the first, but text replacements aren't
> going to do a whole lot for either of them.
>
> --
> ais523
> Mad Scientist
>
>

-- 
--
R. Lee

DIS: Re: BUS: Mad Engineer weekly random rule selection

[ais523 via agora-discussion]

On Mon, 2021-10-25 at 02:07 +0200, nethack4.org dicebot via agora-
business wrote:
> The dice roll was: 82
> This is R2486, The Royal Parade.

For reference:

{{{ _
  _\ /_
  >_X_<
   .---._  /_\  _.---.
 /`.---._`{/ \}`_.---.`\
| /   ___`{\_/}`___   \ |
\ \."`*  `"{_}"`  *`"./ /
 \ \  )\  _\ /_  /(  / /
  \ *<()( >_X_< )()>* /
   |._)/._./_\._.\(_.|
  jgs  |() () () () () ()|
   <><>><>
  `"""`
   IN CELEBRATION of Alexis being crowned Princess of Agora,
without prejudice to Any before or since
who may come to hold a Title
whether Patent or otherwise;
  IT IS HEREBY PROCLAIMED that a Royal Parade be established,
imbued in this very Rule,
which shall travel around Agora to Rules of import;
  AND THEREFORE, the Rulekeepor SHOULD place this Rule
near recently-amended rules of high Power;
  AND FURTHERMORE, additions to this Parade are most welcome
   when Events suiting the honour should occur.
  NEXT UP in the Parade comes the Discordian Court:  G. the
   Grand Vizier is arguing with Jason the Untitled, while
   nix, Court Anarchist, is cramming cancelled ballots into
   eir pockets.
}}}

I don't think this rule is particularly suited to the Mad Scientist
fomat, but I have to try anyway. Any suggestions?

As far as I can tell, there are only two sentences here. The second one
may be easier to work with than the first, but text replacements aren't
going to do a whole lot for either of them.

-- 
ais523
Mad Scientist

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Mad Engineer weekly random rule selection

[Ørjan Johansen via agora-discussion]

On Mon, 11 Oct 2021, Ørjan Johansen via agora-discussion wrote:


On Mon, 11 Oct 2021, ais523 via agora-discussion wrote:


Taking suggestions, as usual; it'll probably take many eyes to find the
best sentence or group of sentences from here to add to the Device.

(One thing worth noting: Ribbon Ownership is secured, so a Power-1
Device definition won't be able to change it, or change what it applies
to; and the rule itself doesn't explicitly allow lower-powered rules to
redefine "qualifies" so they probably can't. That rather limits what
possibilities might actually do something, e.g. "The Device qualifies
for a Platinum Ribbon" is a legal text replacement but probably doesn't
do anything.)


There is one possible exception, since the Device Rule is an Instrument:

 When this occurs, this Device awards that person a Black Ribbon.

And I think the current rule looks just right for it to work.


Alas, Jason pointed out in chat that "awards" is not "earns".  :(

Greetings,
Ørjan.

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Mad Engineer weekly random rule selection

[Ørjan Johansen via agora-discussion]

On Mon, 11 Oct 2021, ais523 via agora-discussion wrote:


Taking suggestions, as usual; it'll probably take many eyes to find the
best sentence or group of sentences from here to add to the Device.

(One thing worth noting: Ribbon Ownership is secured, so a Power-1
Device definition won't be able to change it, or change what it applies
to; and the rule itself doesn't explicitly allow lower-powered rules to
redefine "qualifies" so they probably can't. That rather limits what
possibilities might actually do something, e.g. "The Device qualifies
for a Platinum Ribbon" is a legal text replacement but probably doesn't
do anything.)


There is one possible exception, since the Device Rule is an Instrument:

  When this occurs, this Device awards that person a Black Ribbon.

And I think the current rule looks just right for it to work.

Greetings,
Ørjan.

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Mad Engineer weekly random rule selection

[Trigon via agora-discussion]

El 11/10/2021 a las 00:15, ais523 via agora-discussion escribió:

   For each type of Ribbon,  Ribbon Ownership is a secured
   negative boolean person switch, tracked by the Tailor in eir
   monthly report.


"For each type of Device,  Device Ownership is a secured negative 
boolean person switch, tracked by the Tailor in eir monthly report."


--
Trigon

 ¸¸.•*¨*• Play AGORA QUEST





I’m always happy to become a party to contracts.
I LOVE SPAGHETTI
transfer Jason one coin
nch was here
I hereby
don't... trust... the dragon...
don't... trust... the dragon...
Do not Construe Jason's message with subject TRIGON as extending this

DIS: Re: BUS: Mad Engineer weekly random rule selection

[ais523 via agora-discussion]

On Mon, 2021-10-11 at 02:08 +0200, nethack4.org dicebot via agora-
business wrote:
> The dice roll was: 67
> This is R2438, Ribbons.

This is a pretty long one! For reference:
{{{
  The Tailor is an office, and the recordkeepor of Ribbons.
  
  For each type of Ribbon,  Ribbon Ownership is a secured
  negative boolean person switch, tracked by the Tailor in eir
  monthly report.
  
  To "award a person a " is to flip that person's
   Ribbon Ownership to True. A person "owns a " if eir  Ribbon Ownership is True.
  
  A person qualifies for a type of Ribbon if e has earned that type
  of Ribbon within the preceding 7 days (including earlier in the
  same message).
  
  While a person owns all types of Ribbon, that person can Raise a
  Banner by announcement. This causes that person to win the game.
  When a person wins this way, for each type of Ribbon, that
  person's  Ribbon Ownership is flipped to False.
  
  The types of Ribbon, and the methods of obtaining them, are as
  follows:
  
  Red (R): When a proposal is adopted and changes at least one rule
  that, immediately before or after the change, has Power >= 3, its
  proposer earns a Red Ribbon.
  
  Orange (O): When a proposal is adopted via a referendum on which
  no valid ballots were AGAINST (after evaluating conditionals), its
  proposer earns an Orange Ribbon.
  
  Green (G): While a person holds an elected office, has done so
  continuously for the past 30 days, and has not failed to perform
  any duties of that office within the appropriate time limits
  during those 30 days, that person qualifies for a Green Ribbon.
  
  Emerald (E): When a person wins an election, e earns an Emerald
  Ribbon.
  
  Cyan (C): When a person deputises for an office, that person earns
  a Cyan Ribbon.
  
  Blue (B): When a person assigns a judgement to a CFJ, and has
  never violated a time limit to assign a judgement to that CFJ,
  nor ever self-filed a motion to reconsider that CFJ, that person
  earns a Blue Ribbon.
  
  Magenta (M): When, during Agora's Birthday, a person publicly
  acknowledges it, that person earns a Magenta Ribbon.
  
  Ultraviolet (U): When a person is awarded the Patent Title
  Champion, that person earns an Ultraviolet Ribbon, unless the
  Champion title was awarded as the result of winning the game via
  this rule.
  
  Violet (V): When a person is awarded a Patent Title other than
  Champion or a degree, that person earns a Violet Ribbon.
  
  Indigo (I): When a person is awarded a degree, that person earns
  an Indigo Ribbon.
  
  Platinum (P): The Speaker qualifies for a Platinum Ribbon.
  
  Lime (L): A person qualifies for a Lime Ribbon if three or more
  proposals adopted in the preceding 7 days had that person as a
  coauthor.
  
  White (W): A player qualifies for a White Ribbon if e has never
  previously owned a White Ribbon (including under previous
  rulesets). A player who has been registered for at least 30 days
  and has never acted on eir own behalf to cause another person to
  gain a White Ribbon (including under a previous ruleset) CAN act
  on eir own behalf to award a White Ribbon to another person by
  announcement.
  
  Black (K): An instrument CAN, as part of its effect, cause a
  person to earn a Black Ribbon. When this occurs, this Rule awards
  that person a Black Ribbon.
  
  Gray (A): The Tailor CAN award a Gray Ribbon by announcement,
  unless e has done so earlier in the month. E is ENCOURAGED to
  award such a Ribbon in the same message in which e publishes eir
  monthly report.
  
  Transparent (T): A person qualifies for a Transparent Ribbon while
  the number of other types of Ribbon that that person qualifies
  for, earns, and/or was awarded within the previous 7 days is at
  least 5.
  
  While a person qualifies for a type of Ribbon:
  
- If e has not owned that type of Ribbon within the preceding 7
  days, any player CAN, by announcement, award em that type of
  Ribbon.
}}}

Taking suggestions, as usual; it'll probably take many eyes to find the
best sentence or group of sentences from here to add to the Device.

(One thing worth noting: Ribbon Ownership is secured, so a Power-1
Device definition won't be able to change it, or change what it applies
to; and the rule itself doesn't explicitly allow lower-powered rules to
redefine "qualifies" so they probably can't. That rather limits what
possibilities might actually do something, e.g. "The Device qualifies
for a Platinum Ribbon" is a legal text replacement but probably doesn't
do anything.)

-- 
ais523
Mad Engineer

DIS: Re: BUS: Mad Engineer weekly random rule selection

[Shy Owl via agora-discussion]

> For reference:
> {{{
>Any player CAN clean a rule without objection by specifying one or
>more corrections to spelling, grammar, capitalization, formatting,
>and/or dialect, or to whether a synonym or abbreviation is used in
>place of a word or phrase, in the rule's text and/or title; the
>rule is amended by this rule as specified by that person.
> 
>Any player CAN refile a rule without objection, specifying a new
>title; the rule is retitled to the specified title by this rule.
> }}}
> 
> Any suggestions?
> 
> --
> ais523
> Mad Engineer

"Any player can clean a device..."?

Also "...a device or abbreviation..." has a nice ring to it.

--

Shy Owl

DIS: Re: BUS: Mad Engineer weekly random rule selection

[ais523 via agora-discussion]

On Mon, 2021-10-04 at 02:47 +0200, nethack4.org dicebot via agora-
business wrote:
> The dice roll was: 56
> This is R2221, Cleanliness and Tidy Filing.

For reference:
{{{
   Any player CAN clean a rule without objection by specifying one or
   more corrections to spelling, grammar, capitalization, formatting,
   and/or dialect, or to whether a synonym or abbreviation is used in
   place of a word or phrase, in the rule's text and/or title; the
   rule is amended by this rule as specified by that person.
  
   Any player CAN refile a rule without objection, specifying a new
   title; the rule is retitled to the specified title by this rule.
}}}

Any suggestions?

-- 
ais523
Mad Engineer