Re: What do people believe when it comes to religion and or spirituality?
Re: What do people believe when it comes to religion and or spirituality? Thunderfist, Im curious to know what you think of this:http://www.666soon.com/is_the_mahdi_con … the_an.htmIf youre one, like me, who holds the primary text of your religion as inspired and considers any external text to be subject to error, that is acceptable to me. This seems to be where a lot of fanaticism in some of the muslam cults, like the Wahabi Death cults, comes from though.AlexN, I never said you were going to hell. If you believe that Jesus died for your sins, that you are saved by his blood, then you are going to heaven. The only way to heaven is by the blood of Christ. Whatever anyone believes beyond that is irrelivent regarding getting to heaven, but could have some bearing on their relationship with Christ.Tward, you have a good point about some parts of religion being subjective. In Christianity, this comes into play in deciding whether or not you will follow Christ by faith. God will never give us 100% proof of his existence, hes given us enough to take a leap of faith. Anymore than that and we wouldnt follow him out of love, wed try to follow him out of fear of going to hell. I also know, and know of people, who say that even if we could prove unconditionally, in a court of law, that Christ was real, they still wouldnt follow him.Though I see your viewpoint as very selfish, a viewpoint I would have backed 100% a year ago, I can not disagree with it or argue against it. I can argue that there are proofs for the bible. In the class Im taking right now, the professor says that people say you cant prove the bible, but you can, if you do your homework. He then goes on to show us many authenticating methods given to us by God to prove that the text is by design, alongside scientific evidences. However, you made the choice not to follow Christ, because he did not serve you in exactly the way you wanted, at exactly the time you wanted. Thats not who the God of the universe is. He isnt a God that caters to our every whim, like a Santa Claus in the sky. He is a God who knows what is best for us at all times and is in absolute control, even going so far as to say that he will have mercy on those who he will have mercy, and he will harden those who he will harden. I can think of any number of good reasons why God made me blind, and I used to hate him for doing that. Primarily, it gives me the chance to spread his good news to you all, whereas had I full use of my sight, it seems unlikely, though not impossible, that I would have given this forum a thought. I also have a great testimony to share with people when I tell them what God has done in my life.If your following Christ is determinate upon him completely healing you, then I fear you may be disappointed, though I will pray that it happens. The thing to remember is that God does according to his will, not according to ours. And while we might say that it would be more loving to save those who follow him from consequences such as going blind, we, being under a curse, do not know what true love is. The way I see it, he already did enough for us in opening the path to eternal life for us, there really isnt anything that bad he can do to our temporary shells while we wait for the day when we get to go and be with him. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=226215#p226215 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: What do people believe when it comes to religion and or spirituality?
Re: What do people believe when it comes to religion and or spirituality? Im not really sure what your quotations from Jesus were supposed to prove, but needless to say, I knew about and agree with all of them. What hes basically saying is, its not how good a person you are, its whether or not you choose to follow him on the one pathway to heaven he created, knowing that only he can lead you down that path. No, we dont know whether or not the criminals were religious or what religion they might have been. We do know this, however. That one of them accepted Jesus as lord just before he died, and thus was a Christian and went to be with Jesus in paradise. The centurian amuses me, since the Israelites are Gods chosen people, and yet Christ says that nowhere in all of Israel has he seen such great faith as in that centurian. Just goes to show you how far man has fallen and what happens when they realize that.As to God existing before and after time, thats assuming God is subject to time, which is incorrect. He created time, therefore, he is outside the space time domain. Therefore, he will not cease to exist when time ceases to exist, neither will those who are saved and will spend eternity with him. He will create a new heaven and a new earth.The big bounce has already been refuted by lack of antigravity forces that have never been observed:https://sites.google.com/site/gss12m33/ … unce-modelWhile that website says that the theory can neither be verified nor nullified, I think that lack of the proper forces or conditions to support said theory pretty well nullifies it. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=224948#p224948 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: What do people believe when it comes to religion and or spirituality?
Re: What do people believe when it comes to religion and or spirituality? Im not really sure what your quotations from Jesus were supposed to prove, but needless to say, I knew about and agree with all of them. What hes basically saying is, its not how good a person you are, its whether or not you choose to follow him on the one pathway to heaven he created, knowing that only he can lead you down that path. No, we dont know whether or not the criminals were religious or what religion they might have been. We do know this, however. That one of them accepted Jesus as lord just before he died, and thus was a Christian and went to be with Jesus in paradise. The centurian amuses me, since the Israelites are Gods chosen people, and yet Christ says that nowhere in all of Israel has he seen such great faith as in that centurian. Just goes to show you how far man has fallen and what happens when they realize that. There are other examples of Jesus dealing favorably with gentiles, such as the woman that asked for her child to be healed:Mark7The Syrophoenician Womans Faith24 And from there he arose and went away to the region of Tyre and Sidon.[g] And he entered a house and did not want anyone to know, yet he could not be hidden. 25 But immediately a woman whose little daughter had an unclean spirit heard of him and came and fell down at his feet. 26 Now the woman was a Gentile, a Syrophoenician by birth. And she begged him to cast the demon out of her daughter. 27 And he said to her, “Let the children be fed first, for it is not right to take the childrens bread and throw it to the dogs.” 28 But she answered him, “Yes, Lord; yet even the dogs under the table eat the childrens crumbs.” 29 And he said to her, “For this statement you may go your way; the demon has left your daughter.” 30 And she went home and found the child lying in bed and the demon gone.The entire goal of Christ was to bring salvation to the gentiles and show them how they were supposed to be living and worshiping as the jews had been, not to say that every way is correct as long as you put the name of Jesus in it. The muslams, for example, believe in a very different Jesus. As far as I know, their Jesus was simply a good man who will be the lieutenant of Muhammid when he returns during the caliphate. This is not a Jesus of peace, but instead a Jesus of war, one who executes those who do not follow Ala. The Mormons believe that Jesus was just another creation, though a perfect, sinless one, and thus they put more stock in works than they do in the saving grace of Christ. Neither of these two viewpoints are correct, according to Christ or his apostles. Paul says that we are saved by faith alone and that our works justify our faith by showing it as active. That is the way to heaven, to have faith in Christ as the son of God, believing that he is equal with God, that is, he and God are one and the same, and to ask him for forgiveness of your sins. The criminal on the cross did exactly that, despite his past, and thus, is now in paradise with Jesus.As to God existing before and after time, thats assuming God is subject to time, which is incorrect. He created time, therefore, he is outside the space time domain. Therefore, he will not cease to exist when time ceases to exist, neither will those who are saved and will spend eternity with him. He will create a new heaven and a new earth.The big bounce has already been refuted by lack of antigravity forces that have never been observed:https://sites.google.com/site/gss12m33/ … unce-modelWhile that website says that the theory can neither be verified nor nullified, I think that lack of the proper forces or conditions to support said theory pretty well nullifies it. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=224948#p224948 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: What do people believe when it comes to religion and or spirituality?
Re: What do people believe when it comes to religion and or spirituality? SpiralingWyvern, I never said muslams were wrong, Jesus said that. I was simply confirming his words. As to people altering the text of the bible, it has been tried. Cults have been formed, bibles have been burned and outlawed, humans have attempted to modify the text of Gods holy word. Yet the bible, backed by over 24000 manuscripts, both whole and fragmented, for the new testament alone, remains unchanged, and the dead sea scrolls let us confirm the old testament.AlexN, I never said mutations couldnt be observed, I said evolution. That is, constant benefitial mutation. I also said that while a mutation can be benefitial, it comes at a price. When fruit flies are mutated through experiment simulating thousands of generations, while they may be able to adapt to a new environment, when they are put back in their old environment, they die very quickly. Researchers are finding this with mutated viruses as well. As they adapt to new conditions and new antibiotics, often times they lose the ability to survive in their old environments or fight back against the old antibiotics. While viruses may be getting stronger in terms of surviving in the human body, they then lose things like the ability to survive outside the body for long periods of time, or the ability to spread via airborn travel.I also never said things couldnt happen by random chance, mathematics speaks for itself there. As I said before, why is it that evolution is the only field of study where something can be created at random? You dont go to a junkyard and expect a car to be assembled for you out of spare parts, so why is it so believable that random elements in the universe violently reacted to each other and somehow created intelligent life? As for the universe being god, then what created the universe? Only the god of the bible makes a claim to being eternal, that is, he existed eternally before the creation of the universe, and will exist afterword eternally. So God doesnt need a creator, whereas a finite universe would certainly need a beginning cause. Either God is that beginning cause, or there is somehow an infinite chain of cause and effect going back indefinitely, and that invalidates the scientific law of cause and effect because there would be no beginning cause.I have actually been posting evidence in the form of links, such as:www.khouse.orgwww.icr.organdwww.carm.orgIve also given you books, which I respect far more than websites, and even an evidential movie to examine. Since I do not feel comfortable posting exerpts from books, however, here are some websites that I think have done some respectable research:https://carm.org/questions/archaeologic … cal-citieshttps://carm.org/manuscript-evidencehttps://carm.org/non-biblical-accounts- … -or-peoplehttps://carm.org/can-trust-new-testamen … l-documenthttps://carm.org/hasnt-bible-been-rewri … it-anymorehttps://carm.org/secular-movements/evol … icial-madehttps://carm.org/charles-darwin-on-the-human-eyehttps://carm.org/secular-movements/evol … le-complexhttps://carm.org/brain-evolvehttps://carm.org/secular-movements/evol … n-bacteriaMore from carm here:https://carm.org/evidence-and-answershttps://carm.org/evolutionOther evidentiary links:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tel_Dan_Stelehttp://coldcasechristianity.com/2014/sc … -to-exist/http://www.khouse.org/articles/2014/1183/http://www.inplainsite.org/html/scienti … bible.htmlhttp://www.khouse.org/enews_article/2013/2184/Please note that while I may agree with these specific parts of these websites, in no way do I agree with everything that is stated by their respective authors.It is also important for me to note that while evidence can be very useful, it is ultimately the word of Jesus Christ that must be heard, and not fallible scientific facts. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=224819#p224819 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: What do people believe when it comes to religion and or spirituality?
Re: What do people believe when it comes to religion and or spirituality? SpiralingWyvern, I never said muslams were wrong, Jesus said that. I was simply confirming his words. As to people altering the text of the bible, it has been tried. Cults have been formed, bibles have been burned and outlawed, humans have attempted to modify the text of Gods holy word. Yet the bible, backed by over 24000 manuscripts, both whole and fragmented, for the new testament alone, remains unchanged, and the dead sea scrolls let us confirm the old testament.AlexN, I never said mutations couldnt be observed, I said evolution. That is, constant benefitial mutation. I also said that while a mutation can be benefitial, it comes at a price. When fruit flies are mutated through experiment simulating thousands of generations, while they may be able to adapt to a new environment, when they are put back in their old environment or the old fruit flies are introduced to the new environment, they die very quickly. Researchers are finding this with mutated viruses as well. As they adapt to new conditions and new antibiotics, often times they lose the ability to survive in their old environments or fight back against the old antibiotics. While viruses may be getting stronger in terms of surviving in the human body, they then lose things like the ability to survive outside the body for long periods of time, or the ability to spread via airborn travel.I also never said things couldnt happen by random chance, mathematics speaks for itself there. I do happen to believe that things dont happen by random chance, but thats because the bible tells me that God guides everything in proverbs where it says, the lot is cast into the lap, but its every decision is guided by the lord. As I said before, why is it that evolution is the only field of study where something can be created at random? You dont go to a junkyard and expect a car to be assembled for you out of spare parts, so why is it so believable that random elements in the universe violently reacted to each other and somehow created intelligent life? As for the universe being god, then what created the universe? Only the god of the bible makes a claim to being eternal, that is, he existed eternally before the creation of the universe, and will exist afterword eternally. So God doesnt need a creator, whereas a finite universe would certainly need a beginning cause. Either God is that beginning cause, or there is somehow an infinite chain of cause and effect going back indefinitely, and that invalidates the scientific law of cause and effect because there would be no beginning cause.I have actually been posting evidence in the form of links, such as:www.khouse.orgwww.icr.organdwww.carm.orgIve also given you books, which I respect far more than websites, and even an evidential movie to examine. Since I do not feel comfortable posting exerpts from books, however, here are some websites that I think have done some respectable research:https://carm.org/questions/archaeologic … cal-citieshttps://carm.org/manuscript-evidencehttps://carm.org/non-biblical-accounts- … -or-peoplehttps://carm.org/can-trust-new-testamen … l-documenthttps://carm.org/hasnt-bible-been-rewri … it-anymorehttps://carm.org/secular-movements/evol … icial-madehttps://carm.org/charles-darwin-on-the-human-eyehttps://carm.org/secular-movements/evol … le-complexhttps://carm.org/brain-evolvehttps://carm.org/secular-movements/evol … n-bacteriaMore from carm here:https://carm.org/evidence-and-answershttps://carm.org/evolutionOther evidentiary links:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tel_Dan_Stelehttp://coldcasechristianity.com/2014/sc … -to-exist/http://www.khouse.org/articles/2014/1183/http://www.inplainsite.org/html/scienti … bible.htmlhttp://www.khouse.org/enews_article/2013/2184/Please note that while I may agree with these specific parts of these websites, in no way do I agree with everything that is stated by their respective authors.It is also important for me to note that while evidence can be very useful, it is ultimately the word of Jesus Christ that must be heard, and not fallible scientific facts. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=224819#p224819 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: What do people believe when it comes to religion and or spirituality?
Re: What do people believe when it comes to religion and or spirituality? Druv, Im afraid youve missed the point of what Jesus did. In no way does Jesus restrict your will. You see, choosing to follow God is not like picking a meal from a Macdonnalds menu. It is like planning a trip. If you want to go to London England, but you get on a plane to Sidney Australia instead, you arent going to end up in London no matter what you believe or what you do after that. If you want to play Alter Aeon, there is only one way to connect to that mud, and you wont get to alter by connecting to any other IP address or hostname. This is how it works with Christianity as well. We are free to choose whatever we want, the bible even says so. Joshua, one of Gods great military leaders, essentially said to the people he was leading, choose who you will follow this day, be it the gods of the amarites or any other idols around. But my household and I choose to serve the lord. That does not mean that our choice necessarily means an ything other than that weve made the wrong choice, but it certainly doesnt bely the fact that we are free to make any choice we want. Jesus says that his sheep will hear and recognize his voice. When that happens, we freely choose to follow him, not to restrict our wills, but because of what he has done for us.As an aside, you can follow God and science at the same time, as long as youre being objective:www.khouse.orgAlexN, my problem with your hypothesis, and the hypothesis of Carl Sagan, is that it would mean that nature is somehow intelligent enough to create intelligence, or that intelligence was created by accident. I described earlier how unlikely the idea that any species formed by accident is.SpiralingWyvern, my problem with your theory is that youre assuming that God spoke to humans and then left it up to them to write down his words, thus leaving the word of God fallible to human error. In one of his letters to Timothy, Paul says that all of scripture is God breathed, or inspired. What that means is that God found willing human subjects and essentially channeled his will through them, so that his words would be written down perfectly and 100% accurately. The new testament can be backed up with some 24000 manuscripts, all of which differ only in copiest errors such as slips of the pen, or spelling. When literal translations of the bible are made in modern times, even they are essentially the same in wording, though it does get a little messier with paraphrases. That is why I always study a literal translation, like the English standard version, or Youngs Literal Translation. No doctrine has been changed in the thousands of years that the bible has been around, nor is it going to. As Christ said, not one jot nor tittle of the law shall disappear until these things have come to pass.Thunderfist, those are essentially the same virtues of Christianity, the difference being that we know that the virtues will not save us. We have those virtues only through Jesus Christ, as we strive to be like him. While I have definite respect for the sincerity of the faith of many muslams, it is very possible to be sincerely wrong. Since the bible can be backed up using history, archaeology and many other fields of science, I have to believe Jesus when he said that he is the way, the truth and the life. Noone comes to the father accept through him. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=224772#p224772 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: What do people believe when it comes to religion and or spirituality?
Re: What do people believe when it comes to religion and or spirituality? Druv, Im afraid youve missed the point of what Jesus did. In no way does Jesus restrict your will. You see, choosing to follow God is not like picking a meal from a Macdonnalds menu. It is like planning a trip. If you want to go to London England, but you get on a plane to Sidney Australia instead, you arent going to end up in London no matter what you believe or what you do after that. If you want to play Alter Aeon, there is only one way to connect to that mud, and you wont get to alter by connecting to any other IP address or hostname. This is how it works with Christianity as well. We are free to choose whatever we want, the bible even says so. Joshua, one of Gods great military leaders, essentially said to the people he was leading, choose who you will follow this day, be it the gods of the amarites or any other idols around. But my household and I choose to serve the lord. That does not mean that our choice necessarily means an ything other than that weve made the wrong choice, but it certainly doesnt bely the fact that we are free to make any choice we want. Jesus says that his sheep will hear and recognize his voice. When that happens, we freely choose to follow him, not to restrict our wills, but because of what he has done for us.As an aside, you can follow God and science at the same time, as long as youre being objective:www.khouse.orgAlexN, my problem with your hypothesis, and the hypothesis of Carl Sagan, is that it would mean that nature is somehow intelligent enough to create intelligence, or that intelligence was created by accident. I described earlier how unlikely the idea that any species formed by accident is.SpiralingWyvern, my problem with your theory is that youre assuming that God spoke to humans and then left it up to them to write down his words, thus leaving the word of God fallible to human error. In one of his letters to Timothy, Paul says that all of scripture is God breathed, or inspired. What that means is that God found willing human subjects and essentially channeled his will through them, so that his words would be written down perfectly and 100% accurately. The new testament can be backed up with some 24000 manuscripts, all of which differ only in copiest errors such as slips of the pen, or spelling. When literal translations of the bible are made in modern times, even they are essentially the same in wording, though it does get a little messier with paraphrases. That is why I always study a literal translation, like the English standard version, or Youngs Literal Translation. No doctrine has been changed in the thousands of years that the bible has been around, nor is it going to. As Christ said, not one jot nor tittle of the law shall disappear until these things have come to pass. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=224772#p224772 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: What do people believe when it comes to religion and or spirituality?
Re: What do people believe when it comes to religion and or spirituality? I will try to answer everything I intend to answer this time, as Ive been doing a pretty terrible job of that lately, lol.Firstly, thank you AlexN for those links, Ill definitely be checking those out as I love seeking scientific evidence that backs up my belief in Christ and reading any other evidence, contrary or otherwise, so that I can patch up holes in my belief system.SpiralingWyvern, youre absolutely right that society existed before Christianity, but certainly not before God. Even Judaism didnt exist until about 3 or 4000 years ago when God started guiding the Israelites. However, I as a Christian do not assume my source of morality is true over other sources, I back it up with evidence, such as historical and archaeological validations of scripture. Yes, there are prophetic validations of scripture as well, but as someone else pointed out, there are other supposed prophecies as well, and the bible even makes room for that when it says that if a prophecy comes true and the prophet who makes it says, come, let us go and follow other gods, that prophet is to be put to death. There are even claims of documented gods before the god of Christianity. The reason I accept Christianity as true over such religions as Mormonism, Gehovas witnesses or, branching out further, Taoism, Hinduism or islam, is because the bible, as far as my research has shown me, is the most historically, archaeologically and scientifically validated of any other religious text. Some would claim it is the most well-validated book in history, though I dont quite have enough evidence to back that claim yet.Severestormsteve, first of all let me welcome you into the family, brother. Im glad to know youve started following Jesus Christ as your personal savior. my only problem with your concept of belief is that it assumes that a humans belief system has the potential to determine the destination of their eternal sou l. As far as Ive ever read in the bible, Jesus doesnt give any room for that. It seems pretty clear that whatever you believe, God is still lord of all. I know that there are people that certainly dont believe they are going to hell, I was one of them a year ago. But that is where I would have gone had I not chosen to start serving Christ. That is why Jesus instructs us to spread the gospel wherever we go, to be the light of the world. So that people that dont know, dont believe or dont want to believe at least know there is a better way, a loving father to save them from an eternity of punishment. I would urdge you to read the teachings of Christ himself again carefully and see what conclusion you come to from doing so. That is, of course, your choice to make and I do not intend to push further on the subject.Zakc93, I dont know why God chose to make the punishment eternal. Before Adam and Eve ate of the fruit of the knowledge of goo d and evil, humans did not have the potential to sin, therefore, no one would have gone to hell. However, God knew that we would eat of that fruit, even though he commanded us not to, when he made us. It seems to me, just as with Tward, that a finite punishment would be more just. But God, being the most pure and righteous being in all of existence, knows far better than I what justice is. He can tolerate no unrighteousness at all in his presence, which is why he banished us from the garden of eden and direct access to the throne. When Satan told Eve that if she ate of the fruit, she would be like God, he was absolutely right in one way. The problem is that humans were not created to be able to control the potential for the knowledge of good and evil, and we naturally gravitate toward evil. God said that if he had allowed us to stay, we would have eaten of the knowledge of the tree of life as well and would have been exactly like him, and that would have been a total disaster. What I suspect is that God, when he originally created us, made our souls eternal. Being all powerful, Im sure he could reverse that or change it. I speculate that hell is basically a garbage heap for faulty creations, just as any inventor would have. If a creation does not behave as expected and it cant be fixed, it goes in the garbage, you dont make adjustments to it before throwing it away, especially not when youve tried to fix it already. That is a very human concept and I could be completely wrong. But someone earlier, I believe it was Druv, asked what would happen if we created sencient artificial intelligences. I can tell you what happened because Im seeing it happen with Siri, who is getting more and more intelligent with every release. We would fix problems, or scrap it and rebuild it if something went wrong. Say we created a fully intelligent robot, capable of human conversation on a complex level, to be our servant. Say that the robot decided for some reason that when we asked it to cook our eggs, he would rather cook
Re: What do people believe when it comes to religion and or spirituality?
Re: What do people believe when it comes to religion and or spirituality? I will try to answer everything I intend to answer this time, as Ive been doing a pretty terrible job of that lately, lol.Firstly, thank you AlexN for those links, Ill definitely be checking those out as I love seeking scientific evidence that backs up my belief in Christ and reading any other evidence, contrary or otherwise, so that I can patch up holes in my belief system.SpiralingWyvern, youre absolutely right that society existed before Christianity, but certainly not before God. Even Judaism didnt exist until about 3 or 4000 years ago when God started guiding the Israelites. However, I as a Christian do not assume my source of morality is true over other sources, I back it up with evidence, such as historical and archaeological validations of scripture. Yes, there are prophetic validations of scripture as well, but as someone else pointed out, there are other supposed prophecies as well, and the bible even makes room for that when it says that if a prophecy comes true and the prophet who makes it says, come, let us go and follow other gods, that prophet is to be put to death. There are even claims of documented gods before the god of Christianity. The reason I accept Christianity as true over such religions as Mormonism, Gehovas witnesses or, branching out further, Taoism, Hinduism or islam, is because the bible, as far as my research has shown me, is the most historically, archaeologically and scientifically validated of any other religious text. Some would claim it is the most well-validated book in history, though I dont quite have enough evidence to back that claim yet. And if were talking impirical evidence, I dont think evolution can be tested either. Science can easily find evidence of species mutating, but mutations are almost always bad and even perceived benefitial ones are at the cost of something else. If someone is told when their wife is pregnant that their baby has a mutation, no one ever asks, oh, is it a good one? Therefore, mutation can not be how we would have evolved, if thats how it had happened. All we have for evidence are fossils, which can easily be covered by the hydroplate theory, and a 4.4 billion year old assumed timeline. Science scientists can not observe evolution happening directly, it can only be considered a theory since it can not be systematically tested.Severestormsteve, first of all let me welcome you into the family, brother. Im glad to know youve started following Jesus Christ as your personal savior. my only problem with your concept of belief is that it assumes that a humans belief system has the potential to determine the destination of their eternal soul. As far as Ive ever read in the bible, Jesus doesnt give any room for that. It seems pretty clear that whatever you believe, God is still lord of all. I know that there are people that certainly dont believe they are going to h ell, I was one of them a year ago. But that is where I would have gone had I not chosen to start serving Christ. That is why Jesus instructs us to spread the gospel wherever we go, to be the light of the world. So that people that dont know, dont believe or dont want to believe at least know there is a better way, a loving father to save them from an eternity of punishment. I would urdge you to read the teachings of Christ himself again carefully and see what conclusion you come to from doing so. That is, of course, your choice to make and I do not intend to push further on the subject.Zakc93, I dont know why God chose to make the punishment eternal. Before Adam and Eve ate of the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil, humans did not have the potential to sin, therefore, no one would have gone to hell. However, God knew that we would eat of that fruit, even though he commanded us not to, when he made us. It seems to me, just as with Tward, that a fin ite punishment would be more just. But God, being the most pure and righteous being in all of existence, knows far better than I what justice is. He can tolerate no unrighteousness at all in his presence, which is why he banished us from the garden of eden and direct access to the throne. When Satan told Eve that if she ate of the fruit, she would be like God, he was absolutely right in one way. The problem is that humans were not created to be able to control the potential for the knowledge of good and evil, and we naturally gravitate toward evil. God said that if he had allowed us to stay, we would have eaten of the knowledge of the tree of life as well and would have been exactly like him, and that would have been a total disaster. What I suspect is that God, when he originally created us, made our souls eternal. Being all powerful, Im sure he could reverse that or change it. I speculate that hell is basically a garbage heap for faulty creations, just as any inventor would have. If a creation does not behave as expected and it cant be fixed,
Re: What do people believe when it comes to religion and or spirituality?
Re: What do people believe when it comes to religion and or spirituality? Theres no way I could seriously back the idea that science is always objective, while any belief system is subjective. What it really amounts to is that belief systems are backed by evidence, no matter how flimsy, and your belief system is generally backed by the evidence you look for and find. For example, since I became a Christian, I have found innumerable evidences to support the idea that the world is not only created, but is around 1 years old, that Jesus really did exist and died for our sins, and that the bible is the completely accurate word of God. Bashue, you asked why we shouldnt just ask God for all the rules? Well, if you wrote something down, and people kept asking you the same questions over and over, wouldnt you continually refer them to your writings since youve already answered the question?Interestingly enough, I do agree with you that the big bang theory could easily have been God speaking the world into existance. I don ;t think it was a Christian that invented the theory, but George Whitefield did say that if there were something of that nature that created us, it would be exactly what he would have expected from Gods voice bringing the universe into being. However, it was in 6 days that he did it, not in the commonly proposed 3 minute accident that supposedly started this whole process.Tward, I question the bible constantly and have yet to find an unanswerable question or a contradiction I cant solve. Id even be willing to have you test me on that, and Ive only been a Christian for a little over a year now. Whether or not youre willing to accept those answers is another thing entirely, but Im sorry that it took something as simple as a refutable claim by an archaeology professor to get you to start turning away from your savior. I also find it interesting that youre willing to wait on science for answers, but when it came to your faith, you crash l anded when you were told that science hadnt found anything yet and wasnt likely to.As for genetic studies, everyone says were all evolved from apes, but actually, our DNA is more closely related to pigs. Often times, its not even primate supplements we use for things like diabetics, for a long time it was pig or cow insulin. But does anyone believe we were evolved from pigs or cows? Nope, that wouldnt make sense, especially since we resemble primates far more.In short, I do not distrust science at all. I am often skeptical of its objectivity, but it has massively reinforced my faith over the past year. I dont agree with Christians that science of any form is to be distrusted. Ive found more than enough scientific evidence to back my beliefs up and have even posted here where I found it. Whether or not those reading this are willing to look into it or would rather instead cling to sometimes outdated and often subjective st udies based on assumptions that certain things are true is entirely up to them. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=223693#p223693 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: What do people believe when it comes to religion and or spirituality?
Re: What do people believe when it comes to religion and or spirituality? Themadviolinist, could you point out some specific examples of how the belief that Nocturnis and I hold is harming people directly? As far as I know, I have not killed any homosexuals or even advocated for doing so. I have not condemned any homosexuals to hell, Jesus Christ did that through the apostle Paul and it has nothing to do with them being specifically homosexual. It has to do with the fact that they are willfully practicing sin while trying to claim a relationship with the sinless one, or not having a relationship with him as the case may be, so that their soul is not saved. You can not claim that our personal beliefs are harming people because other members of the church have abused those beliefs in the past. We are not creating an idol, we are following Gods divinely inspired word, the primary method he uses to communicate with his believers. Whether or not you believe its Gods word is entirely up to you, but without knowing the original Hebrew and gre ek, I dont hold to the opinion that this is simply my interpretation of the bible. People have been trying that line of logic since we were created, and its one way that cults are formed. Yet Christianity, as Jesus intended it, is still alive and thriving 2000 years later, despite the worlds attempts to put a stop to it. So many other religions and idols have come and gone, yet Jesus Christ, the son of God, remains.At the end of the day, what I personally believe harms no one. The one place I find intolerance in the world is in Christianitys intolerance of sin. As long as you arent professing to be a follower of Jesus Christ and the bible, everyone in the country I live in is expected to be tolerant of your beliefs and practices. I personally have no problem being told Im wrong or that I shouldnt be doing something, I count it as joy to be percicuted, just as Jesus said I should. I should not be forced to advocate for practices that I know to be wrong, just as a homosexual man should not be forced to be straight. That is not at all what were trying to do. I believe I can speak for Nocturnis and I both when I say that we believe in true free will. We believe that something is wrong because we were told it is wrong, but we do not believe that practice should be forcefully eradicated from the world. People always have a choice to make, at least in the country I live in. If someone wants to be homosexual, thats fine. If they dont want to believe that its wrong, thats fine too. Just dont tell me that I have to believe that its right, as that infringes upon my freedom. I should not be forced to marry a gay couple if I were a pastor, when there are plenty of other churches out there, or even secular justices of the peace, that will do it for them. If, some day, I decide to throw aside the teachings of the bible and, against Christs will, start marrying homosexuals, that
Re: What do people believe when it comes to religion and or spirituality?
Re: What do people believe when it comes to religion and or spirituality? Sukil,Youre right. My point was that you wont go to hell for making the topic, you will go to hell because there is no way to heaven accept by redemption through the blood of Jesus Christ. Often times Christians forget that and attribute a given action to condemnation, and this is what I have a problem with. Telling someone theyre going to hell for any given sin just makes them angry and certainly does not show Christs love to them. Its a balancing act. We cant tell them they arent going to hell, because that would be a lie, so instead we tell them how to get to heaven. All sinners go to hell, Christians are just sinners saved by Gods mercy and grace through the pathway he created by the sacrifice of his only begotten son.As for blasphemy of the holy spirit, again, if one is blaspheming, in the case you cited, attributing Gods word to Satan, one obviously does not have a relationship with Christ and may never have one. There are some difficult passages in the bible to deal with, such as God saying in romans that he will harden those who he wants to harden, and show mercy to those who he would show mercy. He compares us to a potter and his clay. But I never said following God was in any way easy or even easy to understand all of the time.Finally, as for Adam, he did die. He died to righteousness. You need to understand that the bible is packed full of metaphor. God says that we are born dead in our sins. So when he told Adam that he would die if he ate the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil, what he meant is that we were not equipped to handle evil and so we would be dead to righteousness without his help. And that is exactly what happened. Does this mean that atheists can never be moral people? No, but that doesnt really matter. All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God, which is why we need to repent and turn to Jesus Christ for forgiveness of our sins.Tw ard, I have to completely disagree with you for one simple reason. A year ago, I was exactly in your camp. If God did not prove himself to me, he obviously did not exist, and if he did exist, he was only worthy of my undying hatred for making me blind amongst other things. Essentially, we had the exact same position, save that I did not grow up with indoctrination as you did. Now, I have seen more than enough evidence to be willing to devote my life to Christ at any cost. It was not scientific evidence that brought me to God, though science has reinforced my faith over the last year. It was simply God showing me proof in his own way when I asked him for it, and working in my heart until I was finally ready to accept his leadership.I also disagree that evolution covers all the bases of how we got here, especially since top scientists in the field, even atheists, have discovered that the world is just too finely balanced to have, just happened. So now, they attempt to move the problem a step back by claiming that we were created by life on another planet, but that doesnt solve the problem either, since who created that life? The evolutionary theory, for thats exactly what it is, a theory, is full of all kinds of holes, like biodiversity, that is, redundant support systems in various environments, mathematically impossible odds, fake fossils in the fossil record and more. As finely balanced and tuned as the world is, it is impossible that the world we live in today was created by accidental, random chance, especially since true randomness has not been discovered anywhere in the known universe. Both theories, the big bang theory and the evolutionary theory, would have us believe that the universe just popped into existence because it needed to exist for some reason. This does not happen anywhere else in the world. If you go to a junkyard and stand around, you would not honestly expect to see a the junk suddenly assemble itself into a car. By that same token, why are these two theories the only viable place then where something just happened by supposed coincidence? In short, I dont have enough faith to be an atheist.Give it another 20 years and Darwins theory will likely be dead, since as of right now it is mostly the universities carrying it on and not scientists.It isnt that I mind these debates. To the contrary, I enjoy putting my knowledge of scripture and evidences of Gods existence to the test. Sometimes I do wonder what the point is though, since neither side goes in willing to be swayed, and both sides are expecting to leave the debate in, at best, a neutral position. For the Christian, the goal is of course to help those were debating find Christ so that they will be saved from hell. When I was an atheist, my goal was either to get Christians to leave me alone, or to make them seem blind in their faith by offering what I thought at the time was obvious eviden ce against the existence of God. Of course, I do not mean to offend anyone, but
Re: What do people believe when it comes to religion and or spirituality?
Re: What do people believe when it comes to religion and or spirituality? Dhruv,I apologize for not answering your question earlier. I certainly meant to, but apparently I got distracted. Hopefully youre still reading this topic:In post 48, you said that Satan is as powerful as God. Nothing could be further from the truth. Satan and God are not mortal enemies or rivals or anything of the kind.Heres the deal. Satan is a fallen angel that was cast out of heaven for disobedience along with a third of the angels. He is still bound by God and can do nothing without Gods permission, for example, the book of Job in the bible:Satan Allowed to Test Job6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan also came among them. 7 The Lord said to Satan, “From where have you come?” Satan answered the Lord and said, “From going to and fro on the earth, and from walking up and down on it.” 8 And the Lord said to Satan, “Have you considered my servant Job, that there is none like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man, who fears God and turns away from evil?” 9 Then Satan answered the Lord and said, “Does Job fear God for no reason? 10 Have you not put a hedge around him and his house and all that he has, on every side? You have blessed the work of his hands, and his possessions have increased in the land. 11 But stretch out your hand and touch all that he has, and he will curse you to your face.” 12 And the Lord said to Satan, “Behold, all that he has is in your hand. Only against him do not stretch out your hand.” So Satan went out from the presence of the Lord.Satan Takes Jobs Property and Children13 Now there was a day when his sons and daughters were eating and drinking wine in their oldest brothers house, 14 and there came a messenger to Job and said, “The oxen were plowing and the donkeys feeding beside them, 15 and the Sabeans fell upon them and took them and struck down the servants with the edge of the sword, and I alone have escaped to tell you.” 16 While he was yet speaking, there came another and said, “The fire of God fell from heaven and burned up the sheep and the servants and consumed them, and I alone have escaped to tell you.” 17 While he was yet speaking, there came another and said, “The Chaldeans formed three groups and made a raid on the camels and took them and struck down the servants with the edge of the sword, and I alone have escaped to tell you.” 18 While he was yet speaking, there came another and said, “Your sons and daughters were eating and drinking wine in their oldest brothers house, 19 and behold, a great wind came across the wilderness and struck the four corners of the house, and it fell upon the young people, and they are dead, and I alone have escaped to tell you.”20 Then Job arose and tore his robe and shaved his head and fell on the ground and worshiped. 21 And he said, “Naked I came from my mothers womb, and naked shall I return. The Lord gave, and the Lord has taken away; blessed be the name of the Lord.”22 In all this Job did not sin or charge God with wrong.So as you can see, Satan is allowed to do harm to Gods creation. In the next chapter, he is allowed to strike at Jobs health, but not to kill him.Satan is called the accuser. His realm is actually this world, he is called the god of our age. Hell is not his realm. He will be cast into hell alongside those that choose to follow him and he knows it, therefore he wants to take as many of us with him as possible. So he is constantly going to God, trying to get permission to mess with his creation in hopes of getting us to curse God. Unfortunately, it seems to work all too well most of the time.Hell will most certainly not be a better place than heaven. It will be a place of eternal torment, empty of all things joyful or good, apart from Gods presence and apparently, filled only with flames and loneliness. I think this is why most of the time, God is charged with the title of evil dictator. The problem is that we can only see things from a flawed human point of morality. I personally think hell is far too harsh a punishment for any sin, much less for transgressing the law by lying or stealing a cooky from the cooky jar. But stealing is sin in Gods eyes, no matter how small the theft. He is the most righteous and pure being in existence and would have none of us go to hell, but he can tolerate no unrighteousness in his presence. So if we cant make the choice to let him be our loving father and serve him in this life, he essentially has no choice but to throw our eternal soul in the garbage, as humans would do with any defective invension we make. I think this is why some Christians try to make hell out as a place of self-centered torment, knowing you could have made another choice and the fire being metaphor for burning fury or insanity. Unfortunately, I think the lake of fire described in revelations is all too literal, a place of punishment for those who would make the
Re: What do people believe when it comes to religion and or spirituality?
Re: What do people believe when it comes to religion and or spirituality? The genesis contradiction was one of the first I ran into as a Christian. I started following Jesus a year ago, opened my bible, and what is the first thing I see? A perceived contradiction. Of course, Im thinking, oh great, Im just starting with this and theres already problems.After some research, however, the conclusion I came to is not that they are two different creation accounts, but instead, use of some unusual wording. It also depends on what translation you look at. For example, the New Internation Version says, So God had formed all the animals from the ground, whereas many others simply say God formed. As we tell stories, usually formed means that theyre doing it right then in the story, but it could just as well mean that he took the animals he had already formed to Adam to be named in the garden. It may not work for everyone, but it does work for me.There are a couple Im still working on finding answers to, like why does Mat thew say that Jesus rode two donkeys into Jerusalem, when all of the other gosples say just the colt? And how can you ride two donkeys? Perhaps it just means that the colt and its mother were with Jesus when he rode the colt into the city.I disagree with you though, that if there were only one true religion, everyone would immediately convert to it. The bible says as much when Jesus says that only his sheep will recognize his voice. This indicates that there will be those that, no matter how much evidence is shown or scripture quoted, will choose another path because they do not have the ears to hear the voice of Christ. He also says that broad is the gate that leads to destruction and many are those who enter, but narrow is the gate that leads to life and few are those that find it.Ill write more later if I have time. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=222010#p222010 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: What do people believe when it comes to religion and or spirituality?
Re: What do people believe when it comes to religion and or spirituality? The genesis contradiction was one of the first I ran into as a Christian. I started following Jesus a year ago, opened my bible, and what is the first thing I see? A perceived contradiction. Of course, Im thinking, oh great, Im just starting with this and theres already problems.After some research, however, the conclusion I came to is not that they are two different creation accounts, but instead, use of some unusual wording. It also depends on what translation you look at. For example, the New Internation Version says, So God had formed all the animals from the ground, whereas many others simply say God formed. As we tell stories, usually formed means that theyre doing it right then in the story, but it could just as well mean that he took the animals he had already formed to Adam to be named in the garden. It may not work for everyone, but it does work for me.There are a couple Im still working on finding answers to, like why does Mat thew say that Jesus rode two donkeys into Jerusalem, when all of the other gosples say just the colt? And how can you ride two donkeys? Perhaps it just means that the colt and its mother were with Jesus when he rode the colt into the city.I disagree with you though, that if there were only one true religion, everyone would immediately convert to it. The bible says as much when Jesus says that only his sheep will recognize his voice. This indicates that there will be those that, no matter how much evidence is shown or scripture quoted, will choose another path because they do not have the ears to hear the voice of Christ. He also says that broad is the gate that leads to destruction and many are those who enter, but narrow is the gate that leads to life and few are those that find it.You certainly wont end up in hell just for making a topic. Im always happy to remind any Christians that tell atheists or anyone else theyre going to hell for one thing or another that the only way anyone can end up in hell is by being apart from God by not believing in Jesus Christ.I, for one, am more than happy to discuss Jesus Christ with anyone, whatever the circumstances. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=222010#p222010 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: What do people believe when it comes to religion and or spirituality?
Re: What do people believe when it comes to religion and or spirituality? Whether or not we go to Heaven or Hell is determined by one single action: accepting Jesus Christ as lord and savior, and in doing so believing that he came in the flesh, as the son of God to offer forgiveness of sins. That is what I know. Is baptism necessary for repentance? I havent figured that out yet. The bible seems to indicate its important, and I certainly was baptized, but the criminal on the cross next to Jesus was not, and Jesus said that the man would be with him in paradise. That is beyond the scope of this post, however.Just so were clear. No good deed can earn you a place in heaven, whether you give a dollar to a hobo or donate your lifes savings to an orphanage. No evil deed can lose you your place in heaven, whether you lie, kick puppies, kill jews or are in a homosexual relationship. Jesus is the only way, the truth and the life. Noone comes to the father except through him.The old testament was given to us by God to show tha t man is evil through a divinely inspired recording of a series of historical events. After having eaten the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil, man died to his own righteousness and became dead in sin. That is why God told Adam he would die if he ate of the fruit in the garden. We do not have Gods righteousness to keep us from being evil. Therefore God spent thousands of years calling out to us, trying to get us to turn to him for help. Often times we would, only to spit in his face and say, now that youve put us on stable ground again, we dont need you. This has not ended today, as we can see by looking at the state of affairs in America, and in many other countries.The new testament was given to us by God as a divinely inspired recording of his son walking the earth, teaching us how we should be living, making the old testament laws even harder, as if they werent already impossible enough to follow. However, he then showed the ultimate act of m ercy by allowing his son to be killed by his creations, only to have him conquer death and create for us a singular, perfect path to heaven and freeing us from the bonds of the laws. As I said above, only one action is required to get on this path, an action so many are not willing to take, including myself up until about a year ago. The rest is simply guidelines for how we should be living and allowing God to change us. Even though to serve God is to serve your fellow man is not scripture, it is accurate, since thats basically what Jesus says when he tells us to love our neighbor as our self. Does this freedom give us license to do whatever we want in sin? No, Paul makes that perfectly clear. He calls into question your real, heartfelt acceptance of Jesus Christs actions if youre still living in sin, hence his list of people he says will not inherit the kingdom of God. Same with James, when he says faith without works is dead, hes saying, do you really have faith if youre just going to sit around all day doing nothing, not serving the kingdom or helping your fellow man out? Neither are saying that any action other than walking through the narrow gate that Jesus opened is any other way to get to heaven. So to say that a follower of Christ dies having done all good, is simply inaccurate. Anyone who says they have never sinned is a liar. The laws are still important, as they are like guard rails, guidelines to keep us from falling into Satans traps, but they are by no means how we get into heaven.Both books are packed full of Gods acts of mercy, and also the consequences for mans disobedience when we spit on them and tell God to stay out of our affairs. Nothing he can do to us on this earth compares to eternal punishment apart from him. Often times he uses consequences on this earth to try to get us to turn to him, because he sent his son, not to condemn the world, but so that all who believe in him would be saved. God is not an evil dictator, saying do this or be punished. He is a loving father who can tolerate no unrighteousness in his presence, being the most holy being all of existance. He gave us a free will choice to turn to him because he does not want mindless servants. He wants us to choose to love him, not to force us to love him or follow his laws. I have to respect IronCross32s post when he says, if what Im doing lands me in Hell, so be it. Why anyone would make that choice, I have no idea, but its far more honest than trying to build your own god.Where do I get my evidence for all of this? Any number of places.Http://www.carm.orghttp://www.coldcasechristianity.comEvidence demands a verdict by Josh McDowellThe Case for a Creator, The Case for Faith, and The Case for Christ, by Lee StrobelGods not Dead, the movieJust to name a few.As for why there are so many religions, its very simple. Assuming that God really does exist and that the bible really is his inspired word, Satan must exist as well. Satan, being the god of
Re: What do people believe when it comes to religion and or spirituality?
Re: What do people believe when it comes to religion and or spirituality? Whether or not we go to Heaven or Hell is determined by one single action: accepting Jesus Christ as lord and savior, and in doing so believing that he came in the flesh, as the son of God to offer forgiveness of sins. That is what I know. Is baptism necessary for repentance? I havent figured that out yet. The bible seems to indicate its important, and I certainly was baptized, but the criminal on the cross next to Jesus was not, and Jesus said that the man would be with him in paradise. That is beyond the scope of this post, however.Just so were clear. No good deed can earn you a place in heaven, whether you give a dollar to a hobo or donate your lifes savings to an orphanage. No evil deed can lose you your place in heaven, whether you lie, kick puppies, kill jews or are in a homosexual relationship. Jesus is the only way, the truth and the life. Noone comes to the father except through him.The old testament was given to us by God to show tha t man is evil through a divinely inspired recording of a series of historical events. After having eaten the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil, man died to his own righteousness and became dead in sin. That is why God told Adam he would die if he ate of the fruit in the garden. We do not have Gods righteousness to keep us from being evil. Therefore God spent thousands of years calling out to us, trying to get us to turn to him for help. Often times we would, only to spit in his face and say, now that youve put us on stable ground again, we dont need you. This has not ended today, as we can see by looking at the state of affairs in America, and in many other countries.The new testament was given to us by God as a divinely inspired recording of his son walking the earth, teaching us how we should be living, making the old testament laws even harder, as if they werent already impossible enough to follow. However, he then showed the ultimate act of m ercy by allowing his son to be killed by his creations, only to have him conquer death and create for us a singular, perfect path to heaven and freeing us from the bonds of the laws. As I said above, only one action is required to get on this path, an action so many are not willing to take, including myself up until about a year ago. The rest is simply guidelines for how we should be living and allowing God to change us. Even though to serve God is to serve your fellow man is not scripture, it is accurate, since thats basically what Jesus says when he tells us to love our neighbor as our self. Does this freedom give us license to do whatever we want in sin? No, Paul makes that perfectly clear. He calls into question your real, heartfelt acceptance of Jesus Christs actions if youre still living in sin, hence his list of people he says will not inherit the kingdom of God. Same with James, when he says faith without works is dead, hes saying, do you really have faith if youre just going to sit around all day doing nothing, not serving the kingdom or helping your fellow man out? Neither are saying that any action other than walking through the narrow gate that Jesus opened is any other way to get to heaven. So to say that a follower of Christ dies having done all good, is simply inaccurate. Anyone who says they have never sinned is a liar. The laws are still important, as they are like guard rails, guidelines to keep us from falling into Satans traps, but they are by no means how we get into heaven.Both books are packed full of Gods acts of mercy, and also the consequences for mans disobedience when we spit on them and tell God to stay out of our affairs. Nothing he can do to us on this earth compares to eternal punishment apart from him. Often times he uses consequences on this earth to try to get us to turn to him, because he sent his son, not to condemn the world, but so that all who believe in him would be saved. God is not an evil dictator, saying do this or be punished. He is a loving father who can tolerate no unrighteousness in his presence, being the most holy being all of existance. He gave us a free will choice to turn to him because he does not want mindless servants. He wants us to choose to love him, not to force us to love him or follow his laws. I have to respect IronCross32s post when he says, if what Im doing lands me in Hell, so be it. Why anyone would make that choice, I have no idea, but its far more honest than trying to build your own god or claiming he does not exist.Where do I get my evidence for all of this? Any number of places.Http://www.carm.orghttp://www.coldcasechristianity.comEvidence demands a verdict by Josh McDowellThe Case for a Creator, The Case for Faith, and The Case for Christ, by Lee StrobelGods no t Dead, the movieJust to name a few.To touch upon the concept of heaven and hell, well never really know what theyre like until were there. The lake of fire seems to be those who willingly choose to
Re: What do people believe when it comes to religion and or spirituality?
Re: What do people believe when it comes to religion and or spirituality? Whether or not we go to Heaven or Hell is determined by one single action: accepting Jesus Christ as lord and savior, and in doing so believing that he came in the flesh, as the son of God to offer forgiveness of sins. That is what I know. Is baptism necessary for repentance? I havent figured that out yet. The bible seems to indicate its important, and I certainly was baptized, but the criminal on the cross next to Jesus was not, and Jesus said that the man would be with him in paradise. That is beyond the scope of this post, however.Just so were clear. No good deed can earn you a place in heaven, whether you give a dollar to a hobo or donate your lifes savings to an orphanage. No evil deed can lose you your place in heaven, whether you lie, kick puppies, kill jews or are in a homosexual relationship. Jesus is the only way, the truth and the life. Noone comes to the father except through him.The old testament was given to us by God to show tha t man is evil through a divinely inspired recording of a series of historical events. After having eaten the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil, man died to his own righteousness and became dead in sin. That is why God told Adam he would die if he ate of the fruit in the garden. We do not have Gods righteousness to keep us from being evil. Therefore God spent thousands of years calling out to us, trying to get us to turn to him for help. Often times we would, only to spit in his face and say, now that youve put us on stable ground again, we dont need you. This has not ended today, as we can see by looking at the state of affairs in America, and in many other countries.The new testament was given to us by God as a divinely inspired recording of his son walking the earth, teaching us how we should be living, making the old testament laws even harder, as if they werent already impossible enough to follow. However, he then showed the ultimate act of m ercy by allowing his son to be killed by his creations, only to have him conquer death and create for us a singular, perfect path to heaven and freeing us from the bonds of the laws. As I said above, only one action is required to get on this path, an action so many are not willing to take, including myself up until about a year ago. The rest is simply guidelines for how we should be living and allowing God to change us. Even though to serve God is to serve your fellow man is not scripture, it is accurate, since thats basically what Jesus says when he tells us to love our neighbor as our self. Does this freedom give us license to do whatever we want in sin? No, Paul makes that perfectly clear. He calls into question your real, heartfelt acceptance of Jesus Christs actions if youre still living in sin, hence his list of people he says will not inherit the kingdom of God. Same with James, when he says faith without works is dead, hes saying, do you really have faith if youre just going to sit around all day doing nothing, not serving the kingdom or helping your fellow man out? Neither are saying that any action other than walking through the narrow gate that Jesus opened is any other way to get to heaven. So to say that a follower of Christ dies having done all good, is simply inaccurate. Anyone who says they have never sinned is a liar. The laws are still important, as they are like guard rails, guidelines to keep us from falling into Satans traps, but they are by no means how we get into heaven.Both books are packed full of Gods acts of mercy, and also the consequences for mans disobedience when we spit on them and tell God to stay out of our affairs. Nothing he can do to us on this earth compares to eternal punishment apart from him. Often times he uses consequences on this earth to try to get us to turn to him, because he sent his son, not to condemn the world, but so that all who believe in him would be saved. God is not an evil dictator, saying do this or be punished. He is a loving father who can tolerate no unrighteousness in his presence, being the most holy being all of existance. He gave us a free will choice to turn to him because he does not want mindless servants. He wants us to choose to love him, not to force us to love him or follow his laws. I have to respect IronCross32s post when he says, if what Im doing lands me in Hell, so be it. Why anyone would make that choice, I have no idea, but its far more honest than trying to build your own god.Where do I get my evidence for all of this? Any number of places.Http://www.carm.orghttp://www.coldcasechristianity.comEvidence demands a verdict by Josh McDowellThe Case for a Creator, The Case for Faith, and The Case for Christ, by Lee StrobelGods not Dead, the movieJust to name a few.To touch upon the concept of heaven and hell, well never really know what theyre like until were there. The lake of fire seems to be those who willingly choose to follow Satan, they will be
Re: What do people believe when it comes to religion and or spirituality?
Re: What do people believe when it comes to religion and or spirituality? Science can not prove that homosexuality is genetic, though they are trying. At least I have not found any research proving it as such. If it can be done beyond the shadow of a doubt, I will question Gods motive in calling homosexuality evil.Having said that, absolutely in no way, even if homosexuality were genetic, would they be sent to hell because they are homosexuals. As I said above, man can perform no action other than believing in the son of God to determine the destination of his eternal soul. God extends this offer to all, including homosexuals, murderers, those that practice genocide and any other crime you can think of. Ted Bundy was saved by Jesus Christ on death row, just before he was killed, and that man raped, murdered and then had sex with the corpses of at least 30 victims, by his own confession. Since God is the ultimate judge, not I, I have no reason to doubt that his salvation is genuine until I get to Heaven and find out one way or the other. For God so loved the world that he sent his only begotten son, that all who believe in him would not parish, but would instead have everlasting life.Druv, I agree 100% that humans are flawed beings, though interestingly I disagree with one of your previous posts about whats evil and whats fine. For example, I do not in any way think that trapping animals in cages and keeping them there long term for study and entertainment is ok. Yes, God gave us responsibility over all the earth including the animals, but I fail to see how locking a Siberian tiger away in a cage for people to stare at all day is being responsible with Gods creation. I also do not hunt for sport, I hunt for food. Jesus commanded us through Peter to kill and eat, and just after the flood, he told Noah that he was now allowed to eat the flesh of living things. However, we were to make the deaths quick and painless and not waste anything, and there are stipulations, such as do not eat an animal wi th its lifes blood still in it. In other words, make sure its dead before you start eating it, and drain out the blood. Many of these guidelines are in place to keep us protected from consequences. For example, some researchers thought that aids was started by certain tribes in Africa drinking monkey blood. Killing animals responsibly, for food, is ok and not evil because we are the keepers of Gods creation and he commanded us to do so. Killing animals for sport hunting, especially if youre not going to eat the flesh, is most definitely irresponsible if not outright evil. There are many people in my town that enjoy trapping cats and killing them for no other reason than that they find them annoying, and this makes me very angry. Often times I have to go to God seeking forgiveness for my anger at a person like that.As for evidence, well, its true that humans discovered the evidence, but they did not put it there. God did that. By your logic we may as well discount all of science, because if humans are unable to be logical in any way, then all of science is so flawed as to be completely unusable. However, this also goes back to what I said above. Its not my goal to hammer you with evidences and scriptures over and over to make you believe, you have to make the choice to do that. I can only tell you what God has done for you, attempt to debate your arguments and leave it at that. What it amounts to is that when people pick a side, they will find evidences backing their side, plain and simple, as can be seen in evolutionary theory, a theory that is dying and yet is still being taught as scientific fact.Sid, as to your questions, Id be happy to try to answer them if I can. You can either PM me on here, or contact me on Skype if you want, and Ill do what I can as soon as Im around the computer. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=221865#p221865 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: What do people believe when it comes to religion and or spirituality?
Re: What do people believe when it comes to religion and or spirituality? Science can not prove that homosexuality is genetic, though they are trying. At least I have not found any research proving it as such. If it can be done beyond the shadow of a doubt, I will question Gods motive in calling homosexuality evil.Having said that, absolutely in no way, even if homosexuality were genetic, would they be sent to hell because they are homosexuals. As I said above, man can perform no action other than believing in the son of God to determine the destination of his eternal soul. God extends this offer to all, including homosexuals, murderers, those that practice genocide and any other crime you can think of. Ted Bundy was saved by Jesus Christ on death row, just before he was killed, and that man raped, murdered and then had sex with the corpses of at least 30 victims, by his own confession. Since God is the ultimate judge, not I, I have no reason to doubt that his salvation is genuine until I get to Heaven and find out one way or the other. For God so loved the world that he sent his only begotten son, that all who believe in him would not parish, but would instead have everlasting life.Druv, I agree 100% that humans are flawed beings, though interestingly I disagree with one of your previous posts about whats evil and whats fine. For example, I do not in any way think that trapping animals in cages and keeping them there long term for study and entertainment is ok. Yes, God gave us responsibility over all the earth including the animals, but I fail to see how locking a Siberian tiger away in a cage for people to stare at all day is being responsible with Gods creation. I also do not hunt for sport, I hunt for food. Jesus commanded us through Peter to kill and eat, and just after the flood, he told Noah that he was now allowed to eat the flesh of living things. However, we were to make the deaths quick and painless and not waste anything, and there are stipulations, such as do not eat an animal wi th its lifes blood still in it. In other words, make sure its dead before you start eating it, and drain out the blood. Many of these guidelines are in place to keep us protected from consequences. For example, some researchers thought that aids was started by certain tribes in Africa drinking monkey blood. Killing animals responsibly, for food, is ok and not evil because we are the keepers of Gods creation and he commanded us to do so. Killing animals for sport hunting, especially if youre not going to eat the flesh, is most definitely irresponsible if not outright evil. There are many people in my town that enjoy trapping cats and killing them for no other reason than that they find them annoying, and this makes me very angry. Often times I have to go to God seeking forgiveness for my anger at a person like that.As for evidence, well, its true that humans discovered the evidence, but they did not put it there. God did that. By your logic we may as well discount all of science, because if humans are unable to be logical in any way, then all of science is so flawed as to be completely unusable. However, this also goes back to what I said above. Its not my goal to hammer you with evidences and scriptures over and over to make you believe, you have to make the choice to do that. I can only tell you what God has done for you, attempt to debate your arguments and leave it at that. What it amounts to is that when people pick a side, they will find evidences backing their side, plain and simple, as can be seen in evolutionary theory, a theory that is dying and yet is still being taught as scientific fact. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=221865#p221865 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Of Reason and Faith
Re: Of Reason and Faith Jason,Also, just because a blessing hasnt been granted you yet, doesnt mean it wont be granted to you some time down the road. If you had told me a year ago that I would become a follower of Christ this year, I would have told you you were nuts. I thought exactly the way you did, that people who believed in God simply had blind faith and that there was no rationality to it. I kept telling God that if he was out there, he needed to prove himself before Id even think about following him, and then only if I felt like it in my case.Heres a major problem, as I see it. The way that christianity has been twisted in the last few decades, it portrays God as an iron-fisted dictator. Follow me or go to hell. So naturally, people ask for proof of his existance, because who wants to blindly follow a tyrant? This among other reasons, another of which is that we now put much more faith in what we call reality, in what science tells us even if there are arguments on both sides and scientists are still debating many issues being taught as fact, even non-christian scientists, and that science is just as fallible as religion, that we want absolute, undeniable proof of anything and everything.Here is the problem though. God does not want to send anyone to hell. John 3:16 in the bible says, For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten son, that any who believe in him might be saved. It doesnt say, God wants you to read your bible and then immediately worship him or hell send you to hell. Thats the conclusion Im seeing more and more these days though, its the conclusion I had. God loves us, and he wants our love, friendship, and yes, our servitude, in return. If God came down right now and directly proved his existance to you though, if he gave you your sight back, or somehow showed you his face, or spoke directly to you, perhaps put on an undeniable display of p ower, made it absolutely clear to you that he was up there, would you be following him out of love for what he did for you through Jesus Christ, or simply because you did not want to go to hell and youd be forced to respect such power? Or would you disregard such a display of power as a dream, maybe a halucination, or perhaps say that maybe he is not the only God out there? I used to say that if God would just prove himself directly, if hed just come down here and say something directly to me, could prove beyond the shadow of a doubt that he was real, I would follow him. I dont think I would though. I wasnt ready to be held accountable by an outside, impersonal force just because it existed. Perhaps you are in a different position.When we go to be apart from God in hell, that is our choice to make, a freely given choice that he has granted us. Yes, it is a punishment, God is a being of love, but also of righteous judgment, and since we are all sinners, if we are not saved through Christ, he has to judge us as he would judge any unrighteous being. But it hurts him to do so. You might ask then, why doesnt he just not send anyone to hell? If he really loves us all so much, why doesnt he just fix all the worlds problems in one grand swoop and save everyone? I can tell you what I believe. I believe that he does not want to interfere with anyones free will, a will granted by him for a reason. I also believe that if you make people be your friends, then are they really your friends? I would say thats more like being a mindless servant, one who had no choice but to serve and worship God. Instead, he wants us to come to our own conclusion, then to come to him seeking forgiveness for what we have done and ultimate, to build a loving relationship with him just as we would with any of our friends and other loved ones. In short Jason, if I were somehow able to mind control you into being my friend, even if you di dnt want to be brainwashed, would you really be my friend? Or would you rather decide to get to know me from personal communication, maybe what youve read about me on the internet, and put together your own conclusion? All that aside, the conclusion of his plan is just that, to save the world in one grand swoop, the final judgments of earth being simply to sway as many as possible to his side. Eventually, enough will be enough, and though he wants our love and not just our respect, he will turn to displays of power to win us over at the end of days, just before he saves the earth and takes us all to be with him.Ultimately, God will call you in his own time. It took him 25 years to get to me, and I am so glad he did. Nothing we can do can earn our own salvation, and the bible says that we are blind to Gods ways until he calls us, until he invites us to be his friend, we dont know him. There are those who have been swayed by scientific evidence and have become followers of God, and there are those, like me, who one day realized that their life was completely out of control, heard Gods call once again and decided to
Re: Of Reason and Faith
Re: Of Reason and Faith Jason,Also, just because a blessing hasnt been granted you yet, doesnt mean it wont be granted to you some time down the road. If you had told me a year ago that I would become a follower of Christ this year, I would have told you you were nuts. I thought exactly the way you did, that people who believed in God simply had blind faith and that there was no rationality to it. I kept telling God that if he was out there, he needed to prove himself before Id even think about following him, and then only if I felt like it in my case.Heres a major problem, as I see it. The way that christianity has been twisted in the last few decades, it portrays God as an iron-fisted dictator. Follow me or go to hell. So naturally, people ask for proof of his existance, because who wants to blindly follow a tyrant? This among other reasons, another of which is that we now put much more faith in what we call reality, in what science tells us even if there are arguments on both sides and scientists are still debating many issues being taught as fact, even non-christian scientists, and that science is just as fallible as religion, that we want absolute, undeniable proof of anything and everything.Here is the problem though. God does not want to send anyone to hell. John 3:16 in the bible says, For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten son, that any who believe in him might be saved. It doesnt say, God wants you to read your bible and then immediately worship him or hell send you to hell. Thats the conclusion Im seeing more and more these days though, its the conclusion I had. God loves us, and he wants our love, friendship, and yes, our servitude, in return. If God came down right now and directly proved his existance to you though, if he gave you your sight back, or somehow showed you his face, or spoke directly to you, perhaps put on an undeniable display of p ower, made it absolutely clear to you that he was up there, would you be following him out of love for what he did for you through Jesus Christ, or simply because you did not want to go to hell and youd be forced to respect such power? Or would you disregard such a display of power as a dream, maybe a halucination, or perhaps say that maybe he is not the only God out there? I used to say that if God would just prove himself directly, if hed just come down here and say something directly to me, could prove beyond the shadow of a doubt that he was real, I would follow him. I dont think I would though. I wasnt ready to be held accountable by an outside, impersonal force just because it existed. Perhaps you are in a different position.When we go to be apart from God in hell, that is our choice to make, a freely given choice that he has granted us. Yes, it is a punishment, God is a being of love, but also of righteous judgment, and since we are all sinners, if we are not saved through Christ, he has to judge us as he would judge any unrighteous being. But it hurts him to do so. You might ask then, why doesnt he just not send anyone to hell? If he really loves us all so much, why doesnt he just fix all the worlds problems in one grand swoop and save everyone? I can tell you what I believe. I believe that he does not want to interfere with anyones free will, a will granted by him for a reason. I also believe that if you make people be your friends, then are they really your friends? I would say thats more like being a mindless servant, one who had no choice but to serve and worship God. Instead, he wants us to come to our own conclusion, then to come to him seeking forgiveness for what we have done and ultimately, to build a loving relationship with him just as we would with any of our friends and other loved ones. In short Jason, if I were somehow able to mind control you into being my friend, even if you didnt want to be brainwashed, would you really be my friend? Or would you rather decide to get to know me from personal communication, maybe what youve read about me on the internet, and put together your own conclusion? All that aside, the conclusion of his plan is just that, to save the world in one grand swoop, the final judgments of earth being simply to sway as many as possible to his side. Eventually, enough will be enough, and though he wants our love and not just our respect, he will turn to displays of power to win us over at the end of days, just before he saves the earth and takes us all to be with him.Ultimately, God will call you in his own time. It took him 25 years to get to me, and I am so glad he did. Nothing we can do can earn our own salvation, and the bible says that we are blind to Gods ways until he calls us, until he invites us to be his friend, we dont know him. There are those who have been swayed by scientific evidence and hav e become followers of God, and there are those, like me, who one day realized that their life was completely out of control, heard Gods call once again and decided to
Re: Of Reason and Faith
Re: Of Reason and Faith Jason,20 So they brought him. When the spirit saw Jesus, it immediately threw the boy into a convulsion. He fell to the ground and rolled around, foaming at the mouth.21 Jesus asked the boy’s father, “How long has he been like this?”“From childhood,” he answered. 22 “It has often thrown him into fire or water to kill him. But if you can do anything, take pity on us and help us.”23 “‘If you can’?” said Jesus. “Everything is possible for one who believes.”24 Immediately the boy’s father exclaimed, “I do believe; help me overcome my unbelief!Mark 9:20-25Just try asking God to help you believe, and he may do so. Then again, he may have another way of showing you his presence in your life, who am I to attempt to read the mind of God. All I know is that certainly, I did not believe in God for the same reason that you do, because there was no absolute proof. I have found said proof, but only to my standards, and only after God helped me to believe. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=196602#p196602 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Of Reason and Faith
Re: Of Reason and Faith I can indeed love the sinner and hate the sin, because thats exactly what Im doing. It doesnt matter what anyone tells me I can or cant do.I find myself wondering why humanity seeks, as individuals, to place their experiences upon others, as if they are the only experiences that matter, and that noone could possibly experience or do anything else based on those experiences? Dont worry, Im pointing at myself here, given what I shared in the other topic.I have been in similar situations. Its like people think theyre the only ones who have seen suffering in the world, and if anyone else speaks up and says theyve been there but they have come away from the situation with a different opinion, they just dont get it and they never will. Or perhaps they are just heartless and bigotted.Do you know what I would have asked that woman? After all the comforting and crying and befriending and loving?Have you asked God yourself why he thinks its wrong?Just because he wont give me the answer doesnt mean he wont do the same for anyone else on this topic, and it will be an answer that makes sense to you in some way, it always is with God. Its always Gods people that are the target though. Why does God do this? Why does God say this? Gods answer isnt good enough.We dont know the mind of God any better than anyone else, were just the messengers. Were just his friends. It would be like being asked, Hey, why doesnt Andrew like salad? I would go and ask him and he might say, well, I just dont. I could bring you that answer and youd say, that isnt good enough, or hes insane, salad is awesome, or someone should make him like salad. Do I know if Andrew actually likes salad? No, I do not.I see so many people making judgments about God based on what his people do, and frankly, that 39;s ridiculous. But then again, our culture does the same thing about people we try to befriend. Its so easy for us to hear something negative about someone: I dont like the way he built his house. I dont like the way he raised his kids. I dont like the type of phone he has. And make an instant judgment of that person based on what weve heard, not knowing the situation and without ever having met them. Maybe noone on this topic has done that, but Ive heard it and done it myself too many times from people all over the world to think that its just some kind of fluke.I can sit here and present evidence all day that science shows that God exists. I can share all of my emotional and personal experiences with God so far. I can quote scripture at you until Im blue in the face and tell you what I believe, or think, or know to be true.In the end though, it just doesnt matter. When humans have made up their mind that they ha te something, or that its wrong for someone to think the way they do, or that someone is a hatemongering bigot, its impossible to change anyones mind with a presented case, especially on the internet. Its impossible, just as it was for me, until God calls us and our hearts are soft enough and our minds open enough to listen.In a world where morals are becoming more and more subjective, where were teaching our kids in public schools that its ok to lie, cheat and steal, and then getting angry when it happens to us, where our kids are being taught that its ok to murder babies and that sexual experimentation is ok as long as you use protection, despite the fact that pregnancy rate and STD rate is skyrocketing, where self image is far more important than anything else, where marriages and families are falling apart on a daily basis because our pleasure means so much more to us than anyone elses, where money is the god of the world and many will do anything to get massive amounts of it, where rape, mass murder and other crimes are on the rise, where crushing people and stepping on them to get where you need to go in the business world is the cool thing to do, we need God. Are all people like this? Would all people do at least one of the things I said above? No, I doubt that. But all have sinned in some way, and all need Gods grace to be righteous once again. This is the conclusion that I have come to, after 25 years of hating God, and its a conclusion that I hope he will eventually help all of you see as well. Certainly my words will not do it, no matter how many of them I use or how well I compose them. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=196468#p196468 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Of Reason and Faith
Re: Of Reason and Faith Jayde, youre making a lot of assumptions and building your arguement based on those assumptions.Do I think men and women should be equal? No. The bible clearly says that man was made in Gods image, and woman was made in mans image. Just as with many other rights issues though, now women are not fighting to be equal, theyre fighting to be better.Did I ever say that anyone who was gay was instantly bound for hell? Absolutely in no way did I say that. I am not God, I do not know the mind of God, and I would not seek to make a judgment call based on what I think he would do. I have no doubt that we will find tons of gay people in heaven, because they were forgiven of their sin. Stop building straw man arguments based on what you think my, or even our assumed answer would be. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=196469#p196469 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Of Reason and Faith
Re: Of Reason and Faith Jayde, youre making a lot of assumptions and building your arguement based on those assumptions.Do I think men and women should be equal? No. The bible clearly says that man was made in Gods image, and woman was made in mans image. Theres a clear chain of authority, put in place by God. Just as with many other rights issues though, now women are not fighting to be equal, theyre fighting to be better.Did I ever say that anyone who was gay was instantly bound for hell? Absolutely in no way did I say that. I am not God, I do not know the mind of God, and I would not seek to make a judgment call based on what I think he would do. I have no doubt that we will find tons of gay people in heaven, because they were forgiven of their sin. Stop building straw man arguments based on what you think my, or even our assumed answer would be. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=196469#p196469 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Of Reason and Faith
Re: Of Reason and Faith Jayde, youre making a lot of assumptions and building your arguement based on those assumptions.Do I think men and women should be equal in all things? No. The bible clearly says that man was made in Gods image, and woman was made in mans image. Theres a clear chain of authority, put in place by God. Does this mean that I think women should get payed less than men for the same job? No. Should they have less legal rights than us? Not at all. But I have authority over my wife, and so does my pastur. Can that authority be abused? As with all things in life, absolutely it can. Just as with many other rights issues though, now women are not fighting to be equal, theyre fighting to be better.Did I ever say that anyone who was gay was instantly bound for hell? Absolutely in no way did I say that. I am not God, I do not know the mind of God, and I would not seek to make a judgment call based on what I think he would do. I have no doubt that we w ill find tons of gay people in heaven, because they were forgiven of their sin. Stop building straw man arguments based on what you think my, or even our assumed answer would be. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=196469#p196469 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Of Reason and Faith
Re: Of Reason and Faith Hi Brad,Im really sorry to hear that your parents fight a lot. Thats something I grew up with as well, and saying that its no fun is a massive understatement.Sadly, I have heard of people breaking their wives bones. I knew a woman once who was put in the hospital because he broke her arm for disobeying him. I have known, and know of, several battered women. I think that, were I in a situation where a man was beating a woman, it would be one of the times I would come unglued and repay him in spades. God says we are not to defend ourselves against violence or wrong doing, but I dont ever hear him say anything about using violence, or at least putting yourself in harms way to protect others.Youre absolutely right, power can be abused, dictators and kings have proven that time and time again. That does not mean that authority can never be used correctly, however. Any good leader leads by example, and gives his followers choices sometimes, not always commands. This is what God does for us as the greatest leader there is. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=196481#p196481 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Of Reason and Faith
Re: Of Reason and Faith Jayde,Rape is dealt with in Gods word, in two ways. One is that we are told not to have sex outside of marriage, and the other is that we are told to treat our partner as we would treat our own bodies. I wont bother quoting you the scriptures, since youve already told me that they do not matter to you.I dont see things the way you do. Im not saying, My way or the highway. Gods not even saying that. He gave us choice for a reason. Yes, it would be good if they realized that their homosexuality was a sin against God, since it specifically says in the bible that men who have sex with men, along with a rather long list of other categorical sinners, many of which Ive been at one point in life or another, will not inherit the kingdom of God. Does this mean theyll go to hell, or just that they wont be in a position of leadership on the new earth? Probably the latter, or the gift that God offers us would have conditions beyond simply accepting that Jesus died and was resurrected for our sins. I believe that there will be all kinds of people in heaven, from catholics and mormons who have added some extra doctrines, to Muslams who accepted Jesus but were too afraid of being outcast to renounce their old faith, to homosexuals who could not accept what they were doing as sin. The only condition is accepting the gift of Jesus Christ. I could be wrong either way, only God knows at this point, and Ill know when I get there. For now, I just try to do whatever I can to respect and love God for what he did for me, and for the rest of the world, and that means backing his doctrine, unchanged no matter how the culture changes around it, every step of the way. That is my choice and I hold noone else to my personal standard.Im sorry you dont think Im listening to what youre saying, Im trying to the best of my ability. I dont think theres anything I could say to appease you at this point, short of either renouncing my faith, or changing Gods word. I will do neither. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=196501#p196501 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Of Reason and Faith
Re: Of Reason and Faith Jayde,Rape is dealt with in Gods word, in two ways. One is that we are told not to have sex outside of marriage, and the other is that we are told to treat our partner as we would treat our own bodies. I wont bother quoting you the scriptures, since youve already told me that they do not matter to you.I dont see things the way you do. Im not saying, My way or the highway. Gods not even saying that. He gave us choice for a reason. Yes, it would be good if they realized that their homosexuality was a sin against God, since it specifically says in the bible that men who have sex with men, along with a rather long list of other categorical sinners, many of which Ive been at one point in life or another, will not inherit the kingdom of God. Does this mean theyll go to hell, or just that they wont be in a position of leadership on the new earth? Probably the latter, or the gift that God offers us would have conditions beyond simply accepting that Jesus died and was resurrected for our sins. I believe that there will be all kinds of people in heaven, from catholics and mormons who have added some extra doctrines, to Muslams who accepted Jesus but were too afraid of being outcast to renounce their old faith, to homosexuals who could not accept what they were doing as sin. The only condition is accepting the gift of Jesus Christ. I could be wrong either way, only God knows at this point, and Ill know when I get there. For now, I just try to do whatever I can to respect and love God for what he did for me, and for the rest of the world, and that means backing his doctrine, unchanged no matter how the culture changes around it, every step of the way. That is my choice and I hold noone else to my personal standard.Im sorry you dont think Im listening to what youre saying, Im trying to the best of my ability. I dont think theres anything I could say to appease you at this point, short of either renouncing my faith, or changing Gods word. I will do neither.Themadviolinist,Whoa. I never claimed to be able to forgive sin. Only God can do that.Strength, to us, obviously means two different things. I stand in awe of the christians who have the strength to hold up Gods word, unchanging, no matter what the culture says they should do. I am not one of these people. I have always been a fighter my entire life, and apparently, that hasnt changed. In my time on this topic, I have apparently done nothing but offend and destroy, despite my best attempts to do otherwise. Perhaps it will always be that way, and I will be more worried about the debate than the harm that it does. Who knows. All I can say is that I stand by that book that you speak so devoutly against, because thats what God has told me to stand by. Perhaps he is speaking to you more personally, but for most of the christi ans I know, God considers the word in his book to be communication enough. You and many others just like you have tried to change Gods doctrine to fit your personal views, make him serve you instead of you serving him. Gods word, no matter how heavily it is attacked because of fools like me, will always stand strong in its purest form, however. I am sorry to speak out so harshly, and it is not my place to doubt whether or not you actually no Jesus. If you say yo do and you believe that Jesus died and was resurrected for our sins, then as I said before, we are brothers in Christ and I am glad to call you so. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=196501#p196501 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Of Reason and Faith
Re: Of Reason and Faith Jayde,Rape is dealt with in Gods word, in two ways. One is that we are told not to have sex outside of marriage, and the other is that we are told to treat our partner as we would treat our own bodies. I wont bother quoting you the scriptures, since youve already told me that they do not matter to you.I dont see things the way you do. Im not saying, My way or the highway. Gods not even saying that. He gave us choice for a reason. Yes, it would be good if they realized that their homosexuality was a sin against God, since it specifically says in the bible that men who have sex with men, along with a rather long list of other categorical sinners, many of which Ive been at one point in life or another, will not inherit the kingdom of God. Does this mean theyll go to hell, or just that they wont be in a position of leadership on the new earth? Probably the latter, or the gift that God offers us would have conditions beyond simply accepting that Jesus died and was resurrected for our sins. I believe that there will be all kinds of people in heaven, from catholics and mormons who have added some extra doctrines, to Muslams who accepted Jesus but were too afraid of being outcast to renounce their old faith, to homosexuals who could not accept what they were doing as sin. The only condition is accepting the gift of Jesus Christ. I could be wrong either way, only God knows at this point, and Ill know when I get there. For now, I just try to do whatever I can to respect and love God for what he did for me, and for the rest of the world, and that means backing his doctrine, unchanged no matter how the culture changes around it, every step of the way. That is my choice and I hold noone else to my personal standard.Im sorry you dont think Im listening to what youre saying, Im trying to the best of my ability. I dont think theres anything I could say to appease you at this point, short of either renouncing my faith, or changing Gods word. I will do neither.Themadviolinist,Whoa. I never claimed to be able to forgive sin. Only God can do that.Strength, to us, obviously means two different things. I stand in awe of the christians who have the strength to hold up Gods word, unchanging, no matter what the culture says they should do, to love God with all of their heart, soul and mind, and to love the people around them as they love themselves. . I am not one of these people. I have always been a fighter my entire life, and apparently, that hasnt changed. In my time on this topic, I have apparently done nothing but offend and destroy, despite my best attempts to do otherwise. Perhaps it will always be that way, and I will be more worried about the debate than the harm that it does. Who knows. All I can say is that I stand by that book that you speak so devoutly against, because that
Re: Of Reason and Faith
Re: Of Reason and Faith That is exactly what I would like to avoid. Ever getting to the position where I think that I am somehow better than everyone else who is not saved. I am not. I am no better than the rapists, the murderers, the liars, the thieves, the adulterers, the drunkards, the idolators, the sorcerers, and the homosexuals. I agree completely with what Andrew said, but it is a stretch to say that believing in something makes you just like all the others that have gone before you. We are told not to believe that we are any better than anyone else, because we are not. We are not suddenly perfect because we now believe in Jesus. We are still very capable of sin just like everyone else in the world. The only difference between me and everyone else, is that I try, and often fail, not to sin and to speak out against sin, because that is what God wants me to do. I will continue to sin until I get to heaven, at which time I will be freed from the curse of sin that has been applied to this earth.I think that it is far too easy for us to categorize from past experience and say, if you start believing these things, youll end up just like everyone else. That is simply not the case. Those that believe that they are now sinless because they are a christian, those that go to church simply as a social function and not to deepen their relationship with God, those that relegate God to church and otherwise he has no part in their life, those that update Gods holy word to fit their needs and their culture, are in high disrespect of God. Are they followers of God? I can not say one way or the other. As I said before, theres only one condition for being a follower of Christ, that is what keeps us out of hell. But there will be two judgments, a judgment of faith, aka did you know Jesus and accept his gift, and the judgment of works, aka did you have respect and love for God enough to do what he told you to do. I, personally, try to respect my creator and do what he ask s of me. Not because I have to, not because I read some book and now think its ok to condemn the people that book calls sinners, according to Jesus, it is not. I simply do these things because God has done more for me than I could ever possibly even hope to repay, and though I know I can never impress him or do anything to earn his respect in return, I know that I at least have his love and will do my best to return it in every way I know how. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=196512#p196512 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Of Reason and Faith
Re: Of Reason and Faith Jayde,I have to agree with you, in a way. Though I dont quite think faith and reason are completely mutually exclusive. I just dont think that in many cases, anything one says from a viewpoint of faith will sway his opponent from a viewpoint of reason, and the same is true for reason against faith. I have seen reasonable evidence sway someone toward faith, I am reading a book about that very thing. It seems to be very uncommon though. Im sure there are those that have walked away from their faith due to reason as well.For myself, I have found plenty of reasonable, rational evidence that God exists, scientifically, emotionally, logically and otherwise. That is evidence that works for me and me alone, and I believe that is just the way God works. He presents his case to you when he is ready, and nothing I can say or do will rush that in any way. The glory is his, not mine. As Ive said before, rationality is what you make of it, and rationality w ithout faith is very different from faith based in rationality. I think that is why its so easy for topics like this to heat up.Thanks to everyone for the discussion so far. Im really sorry that such an offhanded comment on my part got us started down the very contravertial path of homosexuality. Words have a lot more power than I give them credit for, and you are absolutely right, themadviolinist, they can be very hurtful when used as a weapon. I try not to use them as a weapon, though it seems to be what Im good at, though I do think theres a reason that Gods word is often compared to a sword. However, as I said in one of my facebook posts, you dont always have to use the blade of a sword, its easy enough to turn it around and offer someone the handle. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=196532#p196532 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Of Reason and Faith
Re: Of Reason and Faith Jayde,I love the way you wrapped up your post:It means that if I ever do come to a god of any kind, it will be with good reason that answers to me, not to anyone else.That is exactly what happened to me. God seemed so utterly irrational to me just 7 months ago, completely meaningless and in fact, tyranical. Then one day, I heard his call, or as you put it, found my reason to come to know God, and that was that.That is why I said what I said just 2 posts back. Ive been sitting here trying to force my beliefs on others, through evidence and rationality that only applies to me and to others that have come to know the lord through my same line of reasoning. And for that, I sincerely apologize.I am, in fact, familiar with the concept of deism. If Im not mistaken, Thomas Jefferson was a deist. I just cant believe it myself because I have had personal experiences with God in my life.Thank you for your post. It was enlighte ning. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=196373#p196373 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Of Reason and Faith
Re: Of Reason and Faith Jayde,I love the way you wrapped up your post:It means that if I ever do come to a god of any kind, it will be with good reason that answers to me, not to anyone else.That is exactly what happened to me. God seemed so utterly irrational to me just 7 months ago, completely meaningless and in fact, tyranical. I was staring into that abyss called death with no fear, because I knew that it was simply oblivion. Then one day, I heard his call, or as you put it, found my reason to come to know God, and that was that.That is why I said what I said just 2 posts back. Ive been sitting here trying to force my beliefs on others, through evidence and rationality that only applies to me and to others that have come to know the lord through my same line of reasoning. And for that, I sincerely apologize.I am, in fact, familiar with the concept of deism. If Im not mistaken, Thomas Jefferson was a deist. I just cant believe it myself becaus e I have had personal experiences with God in my life.Thank you for your post. It was enlightening. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=196373#p196373 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Of Reason and Faith
Re: Of Reason and Faith Sorry, I knew I should have clarified one thing that I completely forgot in my post about my beliefs. This has lead to yet another mistake on my part.Do I think all of those things are wrong? Yes. God has told me they are.Does that mean that I believe that homosexuals are to be hated, that murderers and rapists and thieves are to be hated, that witches are to be burned at the stake? Does that mean that I agree with Hitler, who claimed to be a christian at times? Does that mean that I think that all the religious leaders of the world who fell into this exact trap were justified in their killings, percicution against minority groups? Absolutely ... not.There is a difference between thinking something is wrong, and wanting to eraticate or banish it completely. I believe that if those people want to seek God out, that they should repent of what theyre doing, turn away from it, ask God to free them of the temptation.Having said that, I will go into evidence just a touch and say that again, science is not cut and dried here. Just as with evolution, something being taught as fact in most school systems, a simple google search for proof of truth will yield results on both sides. As I recall, homosexuality has only been proved genetically to a factor of .7 statistically, and to be considered scientific fact it has to be proved to at least a factor of 1. Just the fact that there are bisexual people is enough to convince me that at the very least, if there is a genetic push toward homosexuality, it is not irresistable.I believe that I have a bent toward homosexuality. I did a lot of experimentation when I was younger, when I didnt even know that it was a bad idea, and I found that it was just as pleasurable, if not more so, than being with a woman. When I would watch my adult videos or read my sex stories, I would always have to be very careful of the men. I didnt want to be gay for exactly the reason you said Jayde, I was afraid of percicution if it came out that I was gay. But often times, Id find myself listening to the man more than the woman, and sometimes it didnt even occur to me that thats what I had done until later. I of course, in not wanting to be gay, went to the other extreme, for a while, of gay people are all creeps and I want nothing to do with them. Definitely a matter of insecurity, especially given my past experimentation. I have since met a couple of gay people who I naturally, have no problem with as a person, just as was the case when I started interacting with christians more.As to homosexuality and morality, well, some people would say that aids started in the gay community, which it did, and that their community habbit of sleeping around harms others by spreading that. Thats a very blunt statement and I will not apply it to all homosexuals, but it seems to be the case, from my research and interaction with the fringe of their community.I stress again though, that in no way do I hate them. God says homosexuality is wrong, thus, its wrong. Why? We may not know that until were with him, maybe not even then. Until then, we should be loving toward these people, interacting with them just as we would with any other human being, because thats what they are, human beings.By the way, Im actually a little surprised there isnt a branch of christianity that hates blindness, or disability in general. As you said, Im amazed the torches havent come out against us yet:16 The Lord said to Moses, 17 “Say to Aaron: ‘For the generations to come none of your descendants who has a defect may come near to offer the food of his God. 18 No man who has any defect may come near: no man who is blind or lame, disfigured or deformed; 19 no man with a crippled foot or hand, 20 or who is a hunchback or a dwarf, or who has any eye defect, or who has festering or running sores or damaged testicles. 21 No descendant of Aaron the priest who has any defect is to come near to present the food offerings to the Lord. He has a defect; he must not come near to offer the food of his God. 22 He may eat the most holy food of his God, as well as the holy food; 23 yet because of his defect, he must not go near the curtain or approach the altar, and so desecrate my sanctuary. I am the Lord, who makes them holy.’”Leviticus 21:16-23That is meant to apply only to the priests that made the offerings in the old testament, but it wouldnt be the first time a cult was formed from an out of context set of verses in the bible.Im sorry that my unclear statement was offensive to some of you. Thank you for reading. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=196404#p196404 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Of Reason and Faith
Re: Of Reason and Faith Sorry, I knew I should have clarified one thing that I completely forgot in my post about my beliefs. This has lead to yet another mistake on my part.Do I think all of those things are wrong? Yes. God has told me they are.Does that mean that I believe that homosexuals are to be hated, that murderers and rapists and thieves are to be hated, that witches are to be burned at the stake? Does that mean that I agree with Hitler, who claimed to be a christian at times? Does that mean that I think that all the religious leaders of the world who fell into this exact trap were justified in their killings, percicution against minority groups? Absolutely ... not.There is a difference between thinking something is wrong, and wanting to eraticate or banish it completely. I believe that if those people want to seek God out, that they should repent of what theyre doing, turn away from it, ask God to free them of the temptation. There are many christians who have turned away from that lifestyle, a google search should find you some.Having said that, I will go into evidence just a touch and say that again, science is not cut and dried here. Just as with evolution, something being taught as fact in most school systems, a simple google search for proof of truth will yield results on both sides. As I recall, homosexuality has only been proved genetically to a factor of .7 statistically, and to be considered scientific fact it has to be proved to at least a factor of 1. Just the fact that there are bisexual people is enough to convince me that at the very least, if there is a genetic push toward homosexuality, it is not irresistable.I believe that I have a bent toward homosexuality. I did a lot of experimentation when I was younger, when I didnt even know that it was a bad idea, and I found that it was just as pleasurable, if not more so, than being with a woman. When I would watch my adult videos or read my sex stories, I would always have to be very careful of the men. I didnt want to be gay for exactly the reason you said Jayde, I was afraid of percicution if it came out that I was gay. But often times, Id find myself listening to the man more than the woman, and sometimes it didnt even occur to me that thats what I had done until later. I of course, in not wanting to be gay, went to the other extreme, for a while, of gay people are all creeps and I want nothing to do with them. Definitely a matter of insecurity, especially given my past experimentation. I have since met a couple of gay people who I naturally, have no problem with as a person, just as was the case when I started interacting with christians more.As to homosexuality and morality, well, some people would say that aids started in the gay community, which it did, and that their community habbit of sleeping around harms others by spreading that. Thats a very blunt statement and I will not apply it to all homosexuals, but it seems to be the case, from my research and interaction with the fringe of their community.I stress again though, that in no way do I hate them. God says homosexuality is wrong, thus, its wrong. Why? We may not know that until were with him, maybe not even then. Until then, we should be loving toward these people, interacting with them just as we would with any other human being, because thats what they are, human beings.By the way, Im actually a little surprised there isnt a branch of christianity that hates blindness, or disability in general. As you said, Im amazed the torches havent come out against us yet:16 The Lord said to Moses, 17 “Say to Aaron: ‘For the generations to come none of your descendants who has a defect may come near to offer the food of his God. 18 No man who has any defect may come near: no man who is blind or lame, disfigured or deformed; 19 no man with a crippled foot or hand, 20 or who is a hunchback or a dwarf, or who has any eye defect, or who has festering or running sores or damaged testicles. 21 No descendant of Aaron the priest who has any defect is to come near to present the food offerings to the Lord. He has a defect; he must not come near to offer the food of his God. 22 He may eat the most holy food of his God, as well as the holy food; 23 yet because of his defect, he must not go near the curtain or approach the altar, and so desecrate my sanctuary. I am the Lord, who makes them holy.’”Leviticus 21:16-23That is meant to apply only to the priests that made the offerings in the old testament, but it wouldnt be the first time a cult was formed from an out of context set of verses in the bible.Im sorry that my unclear statement was offensive to some of you. Thank you for reading. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=196404#p196404 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Of Reason and Faith
Re: Of Reason and Faith Sorry, I knew I should have clarified one thing that I completely forgot in my post about my beliefs. This has lead to yet another mistake on my part.Do I think all of those things are wrong? Yes. God has told me they are.Does that mean that I believe that homosexuals are to be hated, that murderers and rapists and thieves are to be hated, that witches are to be burned at the stake? Does that mean that I agree with Hitler, who claimed to be a christian at times? Does that mean that I think that all the religious leaders of the world who fell into this exact trap were justified in their killings, percicution against minority groups? Absolutely ... not.There is a difference between thinking something is wrong, and wanting to eraticate or banish it completely. I believe that if those people want to seek God out, that they should repent of what theyre doing, turn away from it, ask God to free them of the temptation. There are many christians who have turned away from that lifestyle, a google search should find you some.Having said that, I will go into evidence just a touch and say that again, science is not cut and dried here. Just as with evolution, something being taught as fact in most school systems, a simple google search for proof of truth will yield results on both sides. As I recall, homosexuality has only been proved genetically to a factor of .7 statistically, and to be considered scientific fact it has to be proved to at least a factor of 1. Just the fact that there are bisexual people is enough to convince me that at the very least, if there is a genetic push toward homosexuality, it is not irresistable.I believe that I have a bent toward homosexuality. I did a lot of experimentation when I was younger, when I didnt even know that it was a bad idea, and I found that it was just as pleasurable, if not more so, than being with a woman. When I would watch my adult videos or read my sex stories, I would always have to be very careful of the men. I didnt want to be gay for exactly the reason you said Jayde, I was afraid of percicution if it came out that I was gay. But often times, Id find myself listening to the man more than the woman, and sometimes it didnt even occur to me that thats what I had done until later. I of course, in not wanting to be gay, went to the other extreme, for a while, of gay people are all creeps and I want nothing to do with them. Definitely a matter of insecurity, especially given my past experimentation. I have since met a couple of gay people who I naturally, have no problem with as a person, just as was the case when I started interacting with christians more.As to homosexuality and morality, well, some people would say that aids started in the gay community, which it did, and that their community habbit of sleeping around harms others by spreading that. Thats a very blunt statement and I will not apply it to all homosexuals, but it seems to be the case, from my research and interaction with the fringe of their community.I stress again though, that in no way do I hate them. God says homosexuality is wrong, thus, its wrong. Why? We may not know that until were with him, maybe not even then. Until then, we should be loving toward these people, interacting with them just as we would with any other human being, because thats what they are, human beings.By the way, Im actually a little surprised there isnt a branch of christianity that hates blindness, or disability in general. As you said, Im amazed the torches havent come out against us yet:16 The Lord said to Moses, 17 “Say to Aaron: ‘For the generations to come none of your descendants who has a defect may come near to offer the food of his God. 18 No man who has any defect may come near: no man who is blind or lame, disfigured or deformed; 19 no man with a crippled foot or hand, 20 or who is a hunchback or a dwarf, or who has any eye defect, or who has festering or running sores or damaged testicles. 21 No descendant of Aaron the priest who has any defect is to come near to present the food offerings to the Lord. He has a defect; he must not come near to offer the food of his God. 22 He may eat the most holy food of his God, as well as the holy food; 23 yet because of his defect, he must not go near the curtain or approach the altar, and so desecrate my sanctuary. I am the Lord, who makes them holy.’”Leviticus 21:16-23That is meant to apply only to the priests that made the offerings in the old testament, but it wouldnt be the first time a cult was formed from an out of context set of verses in the bible.Bashue, thats pretty close, I believe, to how God wants us to live. Spiritual travelling aside, I dont pray religiously most of the time either. There isnt a formula for prayer. We talk to God and he talks back, just as we would with any other personal being on the planet.Im sorry that my unclear statement was offensive to some of you. Thank you for reading. URL:
Re: Of Reason and Faith
Re: Of Reason and Faith Sorry, I knew I should have clarified one thing that I completely forgot in my post about my beliefs. This has lead to yet another mistake on my part.Do I think all of those things are wrong? Yes. God has told me they are.Does that mean that I believe that homosexuals are to be hated, that murderers and rapists and thieves are to be hated, that witches are to be burned at the stake? Does that mean that I agree with Hitler, who claimed to be a christian at times? Does that mean that I think that all the religious leaders of the world who fell into this exact trap were justified in their killings, percicution against minority groups? Absolutely ... not.There is a difference between thinking something is wrong, and wanting to eraticate or banish it completely. I believe that if those people want to seek God out, that they should repent of what theyre doing, turn away from it, ask God to free them of the temptation. There are many christians who have turned away from that lifestyle, a google search should find you some.Having said that, I will go into evidence just a touch and say that again, science is not cut and dried here. Just as with evolution, something being taught as fact in most school systems, a simple google search for proof of either subject will yield strong results on both sides. As I recall, homosexuality has only been proved genetically to a factor of .7 statistically, and to be considered scientific fact it has to be proved to at least a factor of 1. Just the fact that there are bisexual people is enough to convince me that at the very least, if there is a genetic push toward homosexuality, it is not irresistable.I believe that I have a bent toward homosexuality. I did a lot of experimentation when I was younger, when I didnt even know that it was a bad idea, and I found that it was just as pleasurable, if not more so, than being with a woman. When I would watch my adult videos or read my sex stories, I would always have to be very careful of the men. I didnt want to be gay for exactly the reason you said Jayde, I was afraid of percicution if it came out that I was gay. But often times, Id find myself listening to the man more than the woman, and sometimes it didnt even occur to me that thats what I had done until later. I of course, in not wanting to be gay, went to the other extreme, for a while, of gay people are all creeps and I want nothing to do with them. Definitely a matter of insecurity, especially given my past experimentation. I have since met a couple of gay people who I naturally, have no problem with as a person, just as was the case when I started interacting with christians more.As to homosexuality and morality, well, some people would say that aids started in the gay community, which it did, and that their community habbit of sleeping around harms others by spreading that. Thats a very blunt statement and I will not apply it to all homosexuals, but it seems to be the case, from my research and interaction with the fringe of their community.I stress again though, that in no way do I hate them. God says homosexuality is wrong, thus, its wrong. Why? We may not know that until were with him, maybe not even then. Until then, we should be loving toward these people, interacting with them just as we would with any other human being, because thats what they are, human beings.By the way, Im actually a little surprised there isnt a branch of christianity that hates blindness, or disability in general. As you said, Im amazed the torches havent come out against us yet:16 The Lord said to Moses, 17 “Say to Aaron: ‘For the generations to come none of your descendants who has a defect may come near to offer the food of his God. 18 No man who has any defect may come near: no man who is blind or lame, disfigured or deformed; 19 no man with a crippled foot or hand, 20 or who is a hunchback or a dwarf, or who has any eye defect, or who has festering or running sores or damaged testicles. 21 No descendant of Aaron the priest who has any defect is to come near to present the food offerings to the Lord. He has a defect; he must not come near to offer the food of his God. 22 He may eat the most holy food of his God, as well as the holy food; 23 yet because of his defect, he must not go near the curtain or approach the altar, and so desecrate my sanctuary. I am the Lord, who makes them holy.’”Leviticus 21:16-23That is meant to apply only to the priests that made the offerings in the old testament, but it wouldnt be the first time a cult was formed from an out of context set of verses in the bible.Bashue, thats pretty close, I believe, to how God wants us to live. Spiritual travelling aside, I dont pray religiously most of the time either. There isnt a formula for prayer. We talk to God and he talks back, just as we would with any other personal being on the planet.Im sorry that my unclear statement was offensive to some of you. Thank you for reading. URL:
Re: Of Reason and Faith
Re: Of Reason and Faith Sorry, I knew I should have clarified one thing that I completely forgot in my post about my beliefs. This has lead to yet another mistake on my part.Do I think all of those things are wrong? Yes. God has told me they are.Does that mean that I believe that homosexuals are to be hated, that murderers and rapists and thieves are to be hated, that witches are to be burned at the stake? Does that mean that I agree with Hitler, who claimed to be a christian at times? Does that mean that I think that all the religious leaders of the world who fell into this exact trap were justified in their killings, percicution against minority groups? Absolutely ... not.There is a difference between thinking something is wrong, and wanting to eraticate or banish it completely. I believe that if those people want to seek God out, that they should repent of what theyre doing, turn away from it, ask God to free them of the temptation. There are many christians who have turned away from that lifestyle, a google search should find you some.Having said that, I will go into evidence just a touch and say that again, science is not cut and dried here. Just as with evolution, something being taught as fact in most school systems, a simple google search for proof of either subject will yield strong results on both sides. As I recall, homosexuality has only been proved genetically to a factor of .7 statistically, and to be considered scientific fact it has to be proved to at least a factor of 1. Just the fact that there are bisexual people is enough to convince me that at the very least, if there is a genetic push toward homosexuality, it is not irresistable.I believe that I have a bent toward homosexuality. I did a lot of experimentation when I was younger, when I didnt even know that it was a bad idea, and I found that it was just as pleasurable, if not more so, than being with a woman. When I would watch my adult videos or read my sex stories, I would always have to be very careful of the men. I didnt want to be gay for exactly the reason you said Jayde, I was afraid of percicution if it came out that I was gay. But often times, Id find myself listening to the man more than the woman, and sometimes it didnt even occur to me that thats what I had done until later. I of course, in not wanting to be gay, went to the other extreme, for a while, of gay people are all creeps and I want nothing to do with them. Definitely a matter of insecurity, especially given my past experimentation. I have since met a couple of gay people who I naturally, have no problem with as a person, just as was the case when I started interacting with christians more.As to homosexuality and morality, well, some people would say that aids started in the gay community, which it did, and that their community habbit of sleeping around harms others by spreading that. Thats a very blunt statement and I will not apply it to all homosexuals, but it seems to be the case, from my research and interaction with the fringe of their community.I stress again though, that in no way do I hate them. God says homosexuality is wrong, thus, its wrong. Why? We may not know that until were with him, maybe not even then. We should be loving toward these people, interacting with them just as we would with any other human being, because thats what they are, human beings.By the way, Im actually a little surprised there isnt a branch of christianity that hates blindness, or disability in general. As you said, Im amazed the torches havent come out against us yet:16 The Lord said to Moses, 17 “Say to Aaron: ‘For the generations to come none of your descendants who has a defect may come near to offer the food of his God. 18 No man who has any defect may come near: no man who is blind or lame, disfigured or deformed; 19 no man with a crippled foot or hand, 20 or who is a hunchback or a dwarf, or who has any eye defect, or who has festering or running sores or damaged testicles. 21 No descendant of Aaron the priest who has any defect is to come near to present the food offerings to the Lord. He has a defect; he must not come near to offer the food of his God. 22 He may eat the most holy food of his God, as well as the holy food; 23 yet because of his defect, he must not go near the curtain or approach the altar, and so desecrate my sanctuary. I am the Lord, who makes them holy.’”Leviticus 21:16-23That is meant to apply only to the priests that made the offerings in the old testament, but it wouldnt be the first time a cult was formed from an out of context set of verses in the bible.Bashue, thats pretty close, I believe, to how God wants us to live. Spiritual travelling aside, I dont pray religiously most of the time either. There isnt a formula for prayer. We talk to God and he talks back, just as we would with any other personal being on the planet.Im sorry that my unclear statement was offensive to some of you. Thank you for reading. URL:
Re: Of Reason and Faith
Re: Of Reason and Faith Themadviolinist and Jayde, you are both right, we are trying to convert. Are we trying to prove? No, God doesnt need us to do that, and we couldnt prove his existance 100% anyway. But if we are to be consistent with our belief structures, we are told to go out and spread the good news, so our goal is, at the very least, to stand upon the rock-solid foundation of our lord and try to get peoples attention.As of yet, we have not invented anything that can protect people from sexually transmitted aids. It can go through condoms.Im afraid that if Because God said so isnt a good enough answer for you, then I have none. Please though, if you are going to lump me in with us christians, at least be willing to acknowledge that just because I consider homosexuality wrong, does not mean Im about to go on a gay killing spree, or even try to justify one. Just because you can not separate wrong from hate in your own mind, does not mea n I cant.Thank you. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=196417#p196417 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Of Reason and Faith
Re: Of Reason and Faith I guess I shouldnt speak for anyone else either, but to me, sharing a viewpoint that you have no intention of changing means that you want others to come to see the truth of your viewpoint. Thus, why I said that in doing what Jesus tells us to do, we are trying to convert people to our ways. Thats the point of a debate. When two opposing viewpoints come together, one is trying to win out over the other. The winner has successfully converted that person to his viewpoint. Even if this topic was not meant as a debate, I still think that in sharing our stories, our viewpoints, our experiences, that were expecting that something will happen at the very least. So they do have a point, at least I think so. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=196420#p196420 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Of Reason and Faith
Re: Of Reason and Faith Themadviolinist,I was afraid of this happening, given some of the things Ive said in this topic. Did it stop me from posting? No. I guess some lessons have to be learned the hard way.I had a whole post in my mind about how I was going to write more about the astral plain and why we shouldnt go there, what the bible tells us on this and that.In all my posts thus far, I think I have completely missed the point of this topic though. That makes me feel a little sick.I get so busy, as you say, refuting everyone else, that I completely forget two things. Firstly, what it was like for me as an unbeliever who did not know Jesus at all, and then when I was just getting to know Jesus. Secondly, that everyone else believes their religion, lack thereof or general belief system is just as true as mine, and they can usually find evidence to back it up. I almost turned out mormon because of exactly that, evidence, and Ive had many encounters with the spiritual realm, chi, magic, whatever you want to call it.I think that I need to step back and analyze what Im actually doing. Am I speaking in love or out of a need to be right? Probably the latter. Am I asking God to give me the words to post here? Well, a couple times. Did I even use scripture for most of it, no, and it would not have mattered to many of you if I had, since some of you do not believe in scripture, either at all, or that it is not the overall authority of God.So please, if you would, let me have a mulligan.My beliefs are simply this. God created the earth. Woman sinned, thus bringing sin into the world. God knew this and already had a plan set up to redeem his creation. That plan was fulfilled when Jesus died on the cross as the eternal sacrifice and was resurrected for our sins. We now live with the ability to accept the gift of Gods grace through his son Jesus Christ and be saved from being apart from him in hell. All other rule s, laws and what have you, we obey out of respect for God and what he did for us, not because they are conditions for our salvation. We will eventually die and go to be with God in heaven. It is also possible that Christ will come back first, but the outcome is the same. We will be resurrected, along with the earth, heaven and earth will be murged and we will live on the new earth, free from sin through the righteousness of Christ, and once again with direct access to the throne. We will have whole new worlds to explore that God will create for us, and we will be able to explore them alongside Jesus Christ in our resurrected and perfected, or at least bettered, human forms.My moral beliefs, out of respect for God and his word, are that it is wrong to be a homosexual, it is wrong to have premarital sex, it is wrong to shed innocent blood, steal, lie or commit adultery, it is wrong to idolize or blaspheme, or to worship man-made gods or follow false prophets, it is wrong to dir ectly disobey God, that we should honor our father, that we should seek Gods will in our lives and not our own, and that the 66 book version of the bible, with no apocryphal books or extra-biblical writings, is the inspired word of God.I believe that we should always ask for Gods guidance in interpreting the bible. I believe that if there are other scriptures out there, they should always, always be compared with the bible and if any contradictions are found, they should be discarded as the word of God, because the bible tells us that God will never contradict himself or change. I believe that the convention in Nicea was divinely guided and that only the books that were the inspired word of God were included in the bible. I believe that all translations that stand up to scrutany against others have been divinely guided or inspired, and that evidence has shown that the bible has remained accurate to its roots via studies in greek and hebrew using ancient tabl ets and scrolls that we have access to today. I do not believe that all other extra-biblical writings are bad, just as I do not believe that all books that are non-christian are bad, or that I do not believe that fictional christian books are bad. There are even lessons to be learned in those writings. Having said that, I do not believe that those writings are 100% divinely inspired by God.I have no used the phrase, I believe, more times in this topic than I have since I became a christian. I despise that phrase with all of my being, because to me, it means that it implies that what I believe could be untrue. I can stand before you and tell you that I believe Santa Claus to be real, and youd probably just laugh at me. And yet, it brings tears to my eyes and makes my stomach churn, to know that I have been shuttled off into the category of the stereotypical christian, too busy judging others and trying to prove Im right to see the world around me. Too morally arrog ant to show love to anyone, not even God. I am so sorry for this. I have completely missed the
Re: Of Reason and Faith
Re: Of Reason and Faith Themadviolinist,I was afraid of this happening, given some of the things Ive said in this topic. Did it stop me from posting? No. I guess some lessons have to be learned the hard way.I had a whole post in my mind about how I was going to write more about the astral plain and why we shouldnt go there, what the bible tells us on this and that.In all my posts thus far, I think I have completely missed the point of this topic though. That makes me feel a little sick.I get so busy, as you say, refuting everyone else, that I completely forget two things. Firstly, what it was like for me as an unbeliever who did not know Jesus at all, and then when I was just getting to know Jesus. Secondly, that everyone else believes their religion, lack thereof or general belief system is just as true as mine, and they can usually find evidence to back it up. I almost turned out mormon because of exactly that, evidence, and Ive had many encounters with the spiritual realm, chi, magic, whatever you want to call it.I think that I need to step back and analyze what Im actually doing. Am I speaking in love or out of a need to be right? Probably the latter. Am I asking God to give me the words to post here? Well, a couple times. Did I even use scripture for most of it, no, and it would not have mattered to many of you if I had, since some of you do not believe in scripture, either at all, or that it is not the overall authority of God.So please, if you would, let me have a mulligan.My beliefs are simply this. God created the earth. Woman sinned, thus bringing sin into the world. God knew this and already had a plan set up to redeem his creation. That plan was fulfilled when Jesus died on the cross as the eternal sacrifice and was resurrected for our sins. We now live with the ability to accept the gift of Gods grace through his son Jesus Christ and be saved from being apart from him in hell. All other rule s, laws and what have you, we obey out of respect for God and what he did for us, not because they are conditions for our salvation. We will eventually die and go to be with God in heaven. It is also possible that Christ will come back first, but the outcome is the same. We will be resurrected, along with the earth, heaven and earth will be murged and we will live on the new earth, free from sin through the righteousness of Christ, and once again with direct access to the throne. We will have whole new worlds to explore that God will create for us, and we will be able to explore them alongside Jesus Christ in our resurrected and perfected, or at least bettered, human forms.My moral beliefs, out of respect for God and his word, are that it is wrong to be a homosexual, it is wrong to have premarital sex, it is wrong to shed innocent blood, steal, lie or commit adultery, it is wrong to idolize or blaspheme, or to worship man-made gods or follow false prophets, it is wrong to dir ectly disobey God, that we should honor our father, that we should seek Gods will in our lives and not our own, and that the 66 book version of the bible, with no apocryphal books or extra-biblical writings, is the inspired word of God.I believe that we should always ask for Gods guidance in interpreting the bible. I believe that if there are other scriptures out there, they should always, always be compared with the bible and if any contradictions are found, they should be discarded as the word of God, because the bible tells us that God will never contradict himself or change. I believe that the convention in Nicea was divinely guided and that only the books that were the inspired word of God were included in the bible. I believe that all translations that stand up to scrutany against others have been divinely guided or inspired, and that evidence has shown that the bible has remained accurate to its roots via studies in greek and hebrew using ancient tabl ets and scrolls that we have access to today. I do not believe that all other extra-biblical writings are bad, just as I do not believe that all books that are non-christian are bad, or that I do not believe that fictional christian books are bad. There are even lessons to be learned in those writings. Having said that, I do not believe that those writings are 100% divinely inspired by God.I have now used the phrase, I believe, more times in this topic than I have since I became a christian. I despise that phrase with all of my being, because to me, it means that it implies that what I believe could be untrue. I can stand before you and tell you that I believe Santa Claus to be real, and youd probably just laugh at me. And yet, it brings tears to my eyes and makes my stomach churn, to know that I have been shuttled off into the category of the stereotypical christian, too busy judging others and trying to prove Im right to see the world around me. Too morally arro gant to show love to anyone, not even God. I am so sorry for this. I have completely missed the
Re: Of Reason and Faith
Re: Of Reason and Faith Themadviolinist,I was afraid of this happening, given some of the things Ive said in this topic. Did it stop me from posting? No. I guess some lessons have to be learned the hard way.I had a whole post in my mind about how I was going to write more about the astral plain and why we shouldnt go there, what the bible tells us on this and that.In all my posts thus far, I think I have completely missed the point of this topic though. That makes me feel a little sick.I get so busy, as you say, refuting everyone else, that I completely forget two things. Firstly, what it was like for me as an unbeliever who did not know Jesus at all, and then when I was just getting to know Jesus. Secondly, that everyone else believes their religion, lack thereof or general belief system is just as true as mine, and they can usually find evidence to back it up. I almost turned out mormon because of exactly that, evidence, and Ive had many encounters with the spiritual realm, chi, magic, whatever you want to call it.I think that I need to step back and analyze what Im actually doing. Am I speaking in love or out of a need to be right? Probably the latter. Am I asking God to give me the words to post here? Well, a couple times. Did I even use scripture for most of it, no, and it would not have mattered to many of you if I had, since some of you do not believe in scripture, either at all, or that it is not the overall authority of God.So please, if you would, let me have a mulligan.My beliefs are simply this. God created the earth. Woman sinned, thus bringing sin into the world. God knew this and already had a plan set up to redeem his creation. That plan was fulfilled when Jesus died on the cross as the eternal sacrifice and was resurrected for our sins. We now live with the ability to accept the gift of Gods grace through his son Jesus Christ and be saved from being apart from him in hell. All other rule s, laws and what have you, we obey out of respect for God and what he did for us, not because they are conditions for our salvation. We will eventually die and go to be with God in heaven. It is also possible that Christ will come back first, but the outcome is the same. We will be resurrected, along with the earth, heaven and earth will be murged and we will live on the new earth, free from sin through the righteousness of Christ, and once again with direct access to the throne. We will have whole new worlds to explore that God will create for us, and we will be able to explore them alongside Jesus Christ in our resurrected and perfected, or at least bettered, human forms.My moral beliefs, out of respect for God and his word, are that it is wrong to be a homosexual, it is wrong to have premarital sex, it is wrong to shed innocent blood, steal, lie or commit adultery, it is wrong to idolize or blaspheme, or to worship man-made gods or follow false prophets, it is wrong to dir ectly disobey God, that we should honor our father, that we should seek Gods will in our lives and not our own, and that the 66 book version of the bible, with no apocryphal books or extra-biblical writings, is the inspired word of God.I believe that we should always ask for Gods guidance in interpreting the bible. I believe that if there are other scriptures out there, they should always, always be compared with the bible and if any contradictions are found, they should be discarded as the word of God, because the bible tells us that God will never contradict himself or change. I believe that the selection of the books in both the old and new testaments was divinely guided and that only the books that were the inspired word of God were included in the bible. I believe that all translations that stand up to scrutany against others have been divinely guided or inspired, and that evidence has shown that the bible has remained accurate to its roots via studies in greek and hebrew using ancient tablets and scrolls that we have access to today. I do not believe that all other extra-biblical writings are bad, just as I do not believe that all books that are non-christian are bad, or that I do not believe that fictional christian books are bad. There are even lessons to be learned in those writings. Having said that, I do not believe that those writings are 100% divinely inspired by God.I have now used the phrase, I believe, more times in this topic than I have since I became a christian. I despise that phrase with all of my being, because to me, it means that it implies that what I believe could be untrue. I can stand before you and tell you that I believe Santa Claus to be real, and youd probably just laugh at me. And yet, it brings tears to my eyes and makes my stomach churn, to know that I have been shuttled off into the category of the stereotypical christian, too busy judging others and trying to prove Im right to see the world around me. Too morally arrogant to show love to anyone, not even God. I am so sorry for
Re: a code behind the bible
Re: a code behind the bible Thomas, thank you for pointing out that passage in deuteronomy. It gave me something to think about. I actually wasnt surprised to see it. It seems like most christians like to start with the New Testament, reading all about Gods love, mercy and grace, and about the works of Jesus. When I came to Christ, I felt like God was telling me to start from the beginning, so Im reading from cover to cover for my first go at the bible. I think when I read it though, that verse went a bit over my head.Heres what I can come up with on the subject. Yes, deuteronomy says he has to marry the woman he raped, but he also has to give her father 50 pieces of silver. I get the impression that was quite a chunk of money back then. As I recall, Judis betrayed christ for 30 sheckels, or pieces of silver, which if Im remembering right was a lot, so 50 being almost double that might be someones entire fortune. Also, having to marry the woman, the man will most li kely never be in a loving relationship after that, at least not without angering God further. If you have to marry a woman youve raped, shes probably never going to love you, and your entire life after that is going to be completely miserable unless you go and take a second wife, which its quite clear in the bible gets you punished further. I see so many people going around having affairs in todays society, taking second wives, living a polyamerous lifestyle, and so often they seem to lose everything, including their happiness. It may not be the physical punishment youre looking for when someone gets raped, but from experience, I think that often times the emotional punishment can be a lot worse and a lot longer lasting, though we may not always see the effects of it.It seems like the woman is getting the short end of the stick here. I think that God put much more emphasis on being unclean in the Old Testament times. He also had a lot of other ru les that dont make sense to people, such as anyone who has had their penis or testicles damaged being unable to join the congrigation. No bastard was allowed to enter the congrigation either. That is punishing the child, or the person with the physical defect. Sin also tends to lead to more sin. For example, a lot of rape victims want revenge on their rapest, when God clearly says in the bible, Vengence is mine. So even to seek revenge against someone who you believe has done you wrong is a sin. I guess in a way its testing the woman to see if she can stay true to God and not sin or remain unclean. and Im not pointing out that rape makes women unclean because I think that rape victims deserve to be punished or some similar nonsense. God even back then seemed to consider even sex unclean. If you had sex with a woman, even your wife, you were unclean for 7 days and could not make offerings until you were purified. This all leads back to the fact that God is the most holy of all beings, and will not tolerate any kind of evil or impurity in his presence, even if to us mortals it doesnt seem like the victim has done anything wrong. I know that seems like some very twisted logic, it certainly would have to me before I was a believer. I can even see why that would push people away from God. A lot of the people around me were afraid of what was going to happen when I read the old testament, because its the one that christians seem to get bogged down in the most and have trouble with. Animal sacrifice, slavery, rape, sexual sin everywhere, main characters of the bible murdering others, God tossing his wrath around everywhere you look, some find that pretty horrific. I think that to me at least, God has given me the ability to see things from a different viewpoint. I know that I will never grasp for myself why some of those rules were such a big deal to God without being omniscient, but I know that they were and that they were t o be obeyed unfailingly.One thing also to remember is that Jesus specifically said, a lot of this doesnt apply anymore after his resurrection, and even some before. For example, we were only supposed to eat certain kinds of food back in old testament times, but Jesus made all food clean in the gosple of Mark, before his resurrection. The new testament is the one Im the least familiar with, so I dont know where things stand on rape victims now. But what I get out of it is that were supposed to use the bible as a guideline, both literally and metaphorically. For example, some people take that passage about all food being clean, and apply it to other things, such as video games or music. I dont know that I necessarily agree with that, but my point is that only God knows exactly how the rules are layed out, and as mortals, all we can do is try to interpret that and fit it in to our various societies. As I said before, James also points out that in tr ying to spread the word of god, when we open our mouth, we get it wrong almost every time. I also believe that not everything in the
Re: a code behind the bible
Re: a code behind the bible Nocturnus, thank you for posting that. It was incredible to read. A lot of that is what I was so desperately trying to say, but I was afraid I had royally screwed it up with my last post. Especially after reading James 3, where he says that in trying to spread the word, every time we open our mouthes, we get it wrong nearly all the time. I think you stated it in a much more clear and concise manner, and I learned a lot from your post. I completely agree, from experience, that there is no way to truly convince a non-believer that there is a God. The problem is that you really have to accept the gift of Christ before God will show you that yes, he absolutely is there and he does love you. Otherwise, hed be taking away your free will. If God wanted to, he could come down to earth right now and prove, beyond any doubt, to every one of us, that there is a God, and there is a heaven and a hell. That isnt the way God says he wants it though, at least not how I understand it. What God seems to want is a relationship with all of his creations. He seems to want us to choose to follow him, not out of fear or to save ourselves, but because we need him and want a relationship with him. It might be at first that you just start following God to save yourself, but for me, that isnt where it ended. At first, when I was told it was a binary decision, either you accept Christs gift of salvation or you dont, I thought, well, this is easy. Ill just wait until Im about to die, then say, I accept Christs gift of salvation. That way Im all set. I can live the way I want and just in case there is a hell, I wont be going there. Im pretty sure, that would not have worked. I think that works if someone accepts Christ on their death bed and is genuin, but not if they had premeditated the idea strictly to save themselves and not to form any kind of a relationship with the saviour.Yes, I could absolutely go back to m y old life of drinking gallons of alcohol a week, trashing people for fun, filling my life with humor of all kinds and mocking God at every turn. But I absolutely will not. God has blessed me in so many ways already that not only would I be disrespecting God in an even worse way than I used to, but Id have to live with myself, knowingly accepting that I had thrown away a loving relationship with my creator and gone back to my life of sin. I almost lost everything once over that past life, and only through the grace of God was I able to catch myself and get things back on track. If I were to renounce God at this point, the bible says my demons would come back 7 times as strong, and Ive no doubt Id end up losing everything important to me, probably ending up in jail or dead.I understand that not everyones life is like mine. Not everyone is chugging alcohol for entertainment, or even getting humor out of mocking God. But our culture seems to be so heavily based around chasing the next high, what I now believe to be trying to fill that God-shaped hole everyone has with things. Whether its something as obvious as drugs or finding the perfect woman, or as simple as just trying to leave a physical legacy in a writing business. For me, nothing was ever enough without God, there was always something to reach for, and happiness was so fleeting. I dont ever want to go back to that.URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=178419#p178419 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: a code behind the bible
Re: a code behind the bible Sorry for bringing this back up so late, Im terrible about checking this room.Thomas, my belief on the rapture is basically this. If it be Gods will that I stay and help the non-believers through the end times, thats exactly what Ill do, no questions asked. I dont see why hed do that, since the judgments are meant to bring those to him that havent made a decision yet, but I dont presume to know how God thinks, and I see it as a problem with christians almost globally thinking they do know what he thinks, because something is written in the bible.I know this isnt going to help any, but this is the way I see it. We, and yes Im including myself here, are trying to judge the bible by mortal standards. By what were taught is right and wrong in our culture today. What the bible says, is that we are all absolutely disgusting to God. Every one of us, from the guy who donates all of his money to charity to save little orphans on the street, to the guy who raped and killed 30 women and never went to jail for it. Wed all be dead in our sin if it werent for Jesus. One thing to remember is that even something as simple as pride is a sin. So if that guy who donates all his money to charity starts feeling good about what hes done, hes just sinned. I think the concept that people have the most trouble grasping is that God finds every one of us utterly repulsive, and yet he still loved us enough to sacrifice his son for us, thus making us perfect in his eyes. Its what I struggled with the most as a non-believer. Id ask my wife, How can he possibly be a loving God if the only way we can go to heaven is if we love him in return, not how much good we do in this life? I mean to me that just seemed ridiculously petty. Itd be like me going up to a girl on the street and saying, Hey, I want to be in a relationship with you. And if you don t like it, Im going to kill you and your entire family. By mortal standards, that seems absolutely sick.God points out in the bible that his thought processes are to ours what our thoughts are to an infant. Something like that. I dont think he put it in those exact words, but basically, God is the absolute embodiment of holiness. When Eve chose to eat of the fruit of good and evil, we suddenly had the capacity for evil. We dont have those higher thought processes that God has, and thus we became unholy. Allowing us into heaven at that point, without following his holy laws, would have been evil, and God is incapable of doing evil himself. But instead of just trashing the whole thing and starting over, which he almost did once, he layed out this incredibly elaborate plan, so that we could be made perfect and be with the most holy being in the universe.I know this is getting a bit preachy, and I dont mean to aim it at anyone. Its just something that was made clear to me when I became a believer in Christ. Id also agree with you Thomas, George Carlin seems very rational, and hilarious, from an atheist or agnostic point of view. I used to listen to him bash religion for hours. Now, to me, his material seems disgusting, knowing what I know, but that isnt to say Im judging others for listening to it or finding it funny, that isnt my place.As for scientific evidence, all I can say there is Ive found enough to suit me. But the thing about Gods plan is that noone is ever forced into anything. Everyone has to come to their own decision, in their own time, and that means choosing either way, whether you choose to follow God, or not. I am personally very glad I chose to follow God, its made some massive changes in my life. But the last thing I want to do is drive someone away, or further away, from Christ by getting preachy and judgmental. It used to not just irritate me, bu t actively anger me. I dont think personally, that theres any way to explain to a skeptical non-believer how everything just falls into place when you accept Christ, at least not the way it happened in my case. I certainly would never have believed, or even wanted to believe, that I would be where I am now, even 3 months ago. Its just something everyone has to come to in their own time, if it ever happens at all.Thanks for reading, and I hope I havent irritated anyone with my testimony. Its not something Im ashamed of, I just remember how I was and how, to me, sometimes even just hearing someones personal experience could seem pushy.URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=178269#p178269 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Searching for a portable binaural recording system
Re: Searching for a portable binaural recording system Yeah, mine are actually specifically in-ear mics. They fit in your ears kind of weirdly. Theres a little ... well, it looks like a rubber clip but that isnt what it is, just above the ear-bud looking part. You lay the microphone at the entrance to your ear canal, and then the rubber clip part tucks into the folds just above your ear canal to hold it in place. They come with windscreens that make them a lot bigger, this is actually the only way I know of to get them to stay in your ears. As for impairing hearing, just a little bit, and mostly because of the windscreens. I can still navigate just fine with them in, and hear everything thats going on around me. Theyre made specifically not to hamper hearing, so that you can still hear whatever youre recording. They are a little touchy though with loud recordings. For example, I had the olympus set to quick mode, which means it tries to auto-gain for you, when I was recording my baptism ceremony. Most of it picked up well, but tue music was loud enough that it distorted a bit. So for some recordings its probably best to set the gain yourself, but that might apply to the built in microphones or any other microphones youre using. Not sure if it was these specific microphones or not, since Im not any kind of a sound engineer.URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=177469#p177469 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: a code behind the bible
Re: a code behind the bible Well, some people believe that instead of being raptured out, christians will still be here during the end times judgments to guide people to Christ, but well be personally protected from said judgments. That was one thing I fought with a lot before I became a believer. If God is such a loving God, why does he allow for all this suffering and death? And in the end times, why would he just rapture all of his followers out and leave the rest of us to die, either at his own hands or at the hands of the antichrist? Of course in the Left Behind books, its the jewish converts after the rapture that help guide new believers, and the believers are protected, though they can still die by accident, such as being hit by an uncontrolled car. I havent really formed an opinion yet as to what I believe about the end times, since Im only up to Psalms in the bible and have only read someone elses interpretation of revelations.Its definitely been a big change fo r me. George Carlin used to be one of my favorite people to listen to about religion, and anyone who has ever heard him knows hes got some pretty harsh views on the subject. And dont get me wrong, I definitely still have questions. But so far, Ive been able to find answers to them that strengthen my faith rather than shake it. For example, one of the first big questions I had was that I was pretty sure I saw a contradiction in Genesis. In Chapter 1, it says that God created animals on the fifth day, and humans on the sixth. But then, in chapter 2, it makes it seem like he created man first, then animals. Hes saying how its not good for man to be alone, so he forms animals from the dirt of the ground for man to name as companions. So it sounds like man was there first, then God formed the animals. But I was talking to a friend about it who had a different translation than the one I was reading, and his version says, So God had formed the animals, rather than making it sound like he did it right then, he took the animals he had formed and brought them to Adam. I also thought that maybe God had already created the animals, but he hadnt put any in the garden of Eden yet, so he formed some of the animals he had created and paraded them before Adam.The bible is, in my opinion, one of the most difficult books to understand. Especially since we dont know how much of it is meant literally, and how much figuratively or metaphorically. Theres also translation issues, which is why when Im reading, I do a lot of translation comparison if something doesnt make sense. I can definitely understand why there are still non-believers. Many of the things God does seem absolutely wrong, I know a lot of people have trouble with the book of Job. I also remember that first step from logic to faith. Before that, it just seemed completely illogical, and stupid, to put my trust in something that I didnt really belie ve existed. I dont know if it can ever be explained adequately to someone who doesnt believe, I know I sure didnt get it when people would try to explain it to me. I dont mean that as an insult to anyone, I just know how hard it was for me to take that first step back into christianity.URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=177286#p177286 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: a code behind the bible
Re: a code behind the bible Brian, yep, that was one of my favorite routines of his before I became a christian. I also used to listen to his one about him being a sun worshiper a lot.Arq, thanks. I appreciate that. In my case it just turned out to be religion, because I couldnt seem to find any other way to do it.Assault, I agree. I think that we can try to help people as much as we can, but ultimately, you can never force anyone to make a decision, which is what a lot of christians seem to like to do. Preaching at someone and telling them theyre going to hell if they dont pick up a bible is just the wrong way to go about things, I think a lot of times that approach can drive people away from God. Youve got to be able to adapt to the person youre talking to, just like any other conversation. Even though Ive already had some personal blessings, the most Ill do is talk about them, because I remember what its like to be a non-believer and how hard i t was to step out of my logical comfort zone and throw myself upon Gods mercy.Having said that, if anyone reading this would like any help coming to Christ or understanding the word of God, Id be more than happy to give it. I am by no means an expert, but Id like to help out in any way I can. I know many of the people who have responded on this topic are already set in their beliefs, and thats absolutely fine. But just thought Id toss the offer out there in case someone is only reading and not responding, or something.URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=177411#p177411 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Searching for a portable binaural recording system
Re: Searching for a portable binaural recording system I use the Olympus LS-14, and a set of Sound Professionals Low Noise, Standard Sensativity in-ear microphones to do most of my recording. You can just plug them into the microphone jack on the olympus and have instant binaural recording capability. Its an expensive setup but works well if you can afford it. The only problem Ive noticed with my microphones is that for some reason, everything I record it centered slightly off to the left. I havent been able to figure out how to fix that yet, and Ive heard it as a common complaint for in-ear microphones. Some people prefer clip-on collar mics or mics that mount on a pair of glasses for this reason, but I dont think the recordings sound as authentically binaural without actually using your ears.URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=177182#p177182 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: a code behind the bible
Re: a code behind the bible I am a newly converted christian as of about a month and a half ago. I can say that I was a skeptic until I found my faith, and a huge one at that. I would take passages of the bible out of context to try to prove that God wasnt a loving a merciful God, I would try to shoot down all kinds of scientific evidence that proves that at least some of the events in the bible did happen. I would often get drunk and rant for days about how much I hated even the concept of God, and how if he was real he should be fixing the world, not letting us run rampent. It was bad.I dont exactly know what changed. I can speculate. One thing might be that I got tired of doing stupid and sickening things while I was drunk. I nearly lost everything that mattered to me over drinking, and it was just starting to get old. Another might be that I met some mormon missionaries while I was working for my mother, and while they were helping us work I had a more generalized discussion with them about religion. Ironically I didnt turn out to be a mormon, I consider myself to be a non-denominational christian. But that, combined with the fact that Id been talking to my wife about religion for the past 3 years or more, seems to have contributed to my conversion. One day, I just decided to give it a try.What Ive found personally is this. They call it a leap of faith for a reason. Its like stepping off a cliff without looking down and hoping theres a safety net at the bottom. God, the way I see him, can not be run through the logic process, and that is what we, as mortals, try to do. Once you actually start believing, logic is taken completely out of the picture. At least, thats how it was for me.I find the God follows his word, from personal experience. Ive already been blessed several times with things I never thought would happen since I converted. The most major of which is that I no longer have the urdge to drink, aft er praying about it. Its just gone. I had tried to quit on my own several times before, and the longest I ever made it was 6 months. And only then because I was having heart problems. I also got a job I never thought I would get. Last I heard there was just too much paperwork, too many requirements I didnt fill. Then one day after I had been praying about it for a week or so, my boss just calls me up and says, Hey, youre hired. I consider both of those things to be major blessings.As for a code in the bible, well the only one I know of specifically mensioned by the bible itself is Revelations, and Ive heard it says that only believers will truly understand the book. I havent gotten there, but I just finished reading the Left Behind books, which cover the future events of Revelations in a more personal light than profacy and which I found to be really cool.Having personally attacked several members of this community, I know that my credibility is far from stellar. I just wanted to share my personal experiences with the bible here and say that for the most part, I agree with Assault. Theres no way to prove that God exists, he wont allow for that. Which is why they call it faith, not science. But you can find evidence that a lot of the biblical events happened, at least good enough evidence to suit me. I try to mix faith with said evidence, and so far its been working out very well.URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=177184#p177184 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: a code behind the bible
Re: a code behind the bible I am a newly converted christian as of about a month and a half ago. I can say that I was a skeptic until I found my faith, and a huge one at that. I would take passages of the bible out of context to try to prove that God wasnt a loving a merciful God, I would try to shoot down all kinds of scientific evidence that proves that at least some of the events in the bible did happen. I would often get drunk and rant for days about how much I hated even the concept of God, and how if he was real he should be fixing the world, not letting us run rampent. It was bad.I dont exactly know what changed. I can speculate. One thing might be that I got tired of doing stupid and sickening things while I was drunk. I nearly lost everything that mattered to me over drinking, and it was just starting to get old. Another might be that I met some mormon missionaries while I was working for my mother, and while they were helping us work I had a more generalized discussion with them about religion. Ironically I didnt turn out to be a mormon, I consider myself to be a non-denominational christian. But that, combined with the fact that Id been talking to my wife about religion for the past 3 years or more, seems to have contributed to my conversion. One day, I just decided to give it a try.What Ive found personally is this. They call it a leap of faith for a reason. Its like stepping off a cliff without looking down and hoping theres a safety net at the bottom. God, the way I see him, can not be run through the logic process, and that is what we, as mortals, try to do. Once you actually start believing, logic is taken completely out of the picture. At least, thats how it was for me.I find the God follows his word, from personal experience. Ive already been blessed several times with things I never thought would happen since I converted. The most major of which is that I no longer have the urdge to drink, aft er praying about it. Its just gone. I had tried to quit on my own several times before, and the longest I ever made it was 6 months. And only then because I was having heart problems. I also got a job I never thought I would get. Last I heard there was just too much paperwork, too many requirements I didnt fill. Then one day after I had been praying about it for a week or so, my boss just calls me up and says, Hey, youre hired. I consider both of those things to be major blessings.As for a code in the bible, well the only one I know of specifically mensioned by the bible itself is Revelations, and Ive heard it says that only believers will truly understand the book. I havent gotten there, but I just finished reading the Left Behind books, which cover the future events of Revelations in a more personal light than profacy and which I found to be really cool.Christianity stealing things from other religions is messy. Rome did not like christianity at all, so they tried to corrupt it as much as possible. And they did a good job of it. Ironically, Christmas isnt even a christian holiday. Its some weird combination of a pagan custom and catholic Mass. Ive heard it wasnt even Christs birthday and that the Gregorian calendar miscalculated there, though I havent had a chance to sit down and study this in any detail.Having personally attacked several members of this community, I know that my credibility is far from stellar. I just wanted to share my personal experiences with the bible here and say that for the most part, I agree with Assault. Theres no way to prove that God exists, he wont allow for that. Which is why they call it faith, not science. But you can find evidence that a lot of the biblical events happened, at least good enough evidence to suit me. I try to mix faith with said evidence, and so far its been working out very well.URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=177184#p177184 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
