Re: Why do people still use bgt?
Re: Why do people still use bgt? my answer is, bgt just wan'ts to start audio games programming without know basic things like how things work. and yeah URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/572107/#p572107 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Why do people still use bgt?
Re: Why do people still use bgt? ... Yeah, that's not a bad summary. I'd say that style is why I could never continue accessifying Sonic. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/572016/#p572016 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Why do people still use bgt?
Re: Why do people still use bgt? Almost nothing in Swamp needs sample-accurate looping. If something did, keep it as wav, otherwise mp3 is fine. As far as I know vb6 only supports mp3 (really: DirectX 7 or whatever it is is to blame). But in theory he could i.e. call Synthizer when that's more mature, it's not like there aren't options. I get where he's coming from, but people have trouble getting the game because it's that large.Swamp is one of the best things we have, but it sucks for lots of reasons, and so many of them are sad. A big contributor to it being paid is that you could create too many characters for the server in an afternoon, passwords aren't secure (and based on the limitations I suspect stored in plaintext), etc. Everything I see negative about Swamp is that Swamp was written from the BGT mindset of "I know it and it's good enough, nevermind anything more". And I get it: Aprone isn't a coder by trade, time is limited, etc. But if you want to know where the endgame of BGT-style what I know is good enough grr coding, the endgame of that is you've got an online shooter and it mostly works but you can be brought down by someone just creating a bunch of characters and doing nothing with them, tons of weird random lag just because, and you go something like a year with a bug where logging off duplicates your inventory. I strongly suspect Swamp stopped seeing major updates because Aprone is discovering that whatever choices he made limit him strongly now.And that's the thing. The mindset by the pro-BGT people finishes the project. It takes more work than it should, it doesn't help build an ecosystem, but if you try really really hard it gets done. Then that's it. The end. You're at the project is finished and my code is too inflexible to ever do anything more here wall. You might be able to push it but each update takes more effort than the last and maybe, maybe you buy a couple months before touching it is insurmountably difficult and all you can do is add new levels, forget fixing bugs in the engine, forget new features. Forget any grand V2 plans. It's done in the bad way. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/571973/#p571973 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Why do people still use bgt?
Re: Why do people still use bgt? Yeah, TBH it's one of these things I know I should do, but just haven't done. Probably something I should fix for future projects.I don't think MP3 would be the best choice for swamp, mainly because looping issues. Perhaps ogg or flac? do either of those even work with VB6? URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/571967/#p571967 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Why do people still use bgt?
Re: Why do people still use bgt? @62Swamp still doesn't use Mp3 despite it making the game 10x smaller and DirectX supporting it, and still doesn't have a proper installer, so in terms of is Aprone lazy? Not exactly lazy, but certainly with at least skewed priorities and certainly not willing to learn modern tech, so perhaps not the best counterargument. That said I don't think ironcross32 is being particularly kind or accurate, though.As for you not needing to think about modularity: first, "we all put them in well-named files" *is* modules, or at least a big step toward it. But also, you're probably not doing anything big by the standards of programming if you think that you'll remember later. I don't remember later even when I do modules, the modules are what help me figure it out. That's why we make such a big deal of this.I say modularity is like functions, and that's also true in another way. I can list specific reasons why this matters. But you have to get it on your own, because lists of specific reasons don't actually get the concept across, or why we actually care. If I was going to try to go meta, your brain is like a cache. It can only hold a small part of the project at a time. if you're still at the point where you feel like you can hold the whole program in your mind at once, you're still doing small projects, you haven't yet hit the point where that's actually a problem. But for Synthizer for example, there's enough going on that holding more than a few functions in mind at once isn't feasible, and modularity is what lets me make progress anyway: because I did that well, I never have to hold more than a few functions in mind and the fact that I can't hold more doesn't matter. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/571938/#p571938 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Why do people still use bgt?
Re: Why do people still use bgt? @61, very good points there. I suppose I never thought about it like that, I usually work on projects solo or with people of a similar mind, so knowing what goes where usually isn't a big deal, and we always have clear filenames so we'll probably still know what's what if we were to abandone it for a few years or whatever.Ironcross, while I think we can all agree that BGT's future certainly won't be a bright one, I disagree that those still holding on to it are lazy necessarily. Not everyone wants to do programming outside of making audiogames, or heck, some people just want a simple language to code games in while leaving the more complated languages for the coding of, well, more complicated programs. The sighted industry is full of this sort of thing, the only difference is that they actually have dedicated languages for games like BGT that are still receiving updates, look at unreal, unity, etc etc.With all that said though, look at swamp. Would you call aprone lazy for choosing to use VB 6 in 2020? URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/571929/#p571929 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Why do people still use bgt?
Re: Why do people still use bgt? @musicalmanEvery programmer can relate to this. It took me something like 5 years to not be doing little toy scripts in some variant of basic or whatever. Humans aren't meant to think about programming.But the BGT manual also isn't a good resource. It tries to be approachable, but it tells you to jump right into gaming stuff, and it doesn't like, spend a chapter explaining the function. I need to make a list of books or something and keep them on hand for this kind of discussion, but the point still stands. There's a reason that we have CS degrees and things.I started when I was literally 12 or so, which is why it took me so long; I'm naturally good at programming to at least some extent, which is why it didn't take longer. If you do it as an adult and you're not still developing in other ways you can do it in maybe a year of intensive work, but the lie that you get told in audiogames land is that you should try to develop a game. In reality you either need a project that you care so much about that you keep going for the sake of the project, or to be interested in programming for the sake of knowing how it all works.@haily_merryNamespaces aren't the point. Modularity is the point. Namespaces are just the side effect. If you understand modularity then namespaces are actively helpful. If you don't, then "I have to import things" is a giant thing that's awful. Namespaces happened because anyone doing sizable projects reinvents them if they're not present. What they do is force the issue. But I will say that if you look at something like Python and go "import statements are terrible", you don't understand modularity and code reuse yet.The easiest thing about no namespaces to talk about is this: you've got 5 globals for 5 different things. Which files are they in? Good luck if you don't remember. If you do remember, you invented modules and importing them probably isn't a big deal.But modularity gets you lots of things, and namespaces help make them better. It lets you be on a team of two people and say "go work on networking, I'm working on maps" and know that you're not going to clash with each other. In other words, you don't have to take turns working on the codebase. It lets you treat small parts of your program like programs of their own. It lets you implement unit testing strategies, which are way easier than they sound, and then you get a "does my code work" button. It lets you lift parts of the code out to reuse them in other projects, even if that code is split across multiple files, because you can just see what those files imports. It lets you bring in multiple libraries from different people without having to worry about if they have functions that are named the same. If you're using git or something, it gives you very clean diffs, so that you can easily see what changed.If you do modularity right, then all namespaces are doing is letting you say "this is the networking module" explicitly, and making it so that you don't have to worry about name conflicts. Also, most languages let you say "grab these 3 things from this namespace and those 5 things from that one and make a new namespace with all the names" one way or another, so if it really is turning into 20 or 30 imports, that's easily fixable, you can bring it down to 1 or 2 if you really want. Everythin being 20 or 30 imports is a sign of something gone wrong, so, maybe consider not doing that. But you can.in practice most programs can be written as modules of under a thousand lines at most, usually under 500, frequently under 200. At least in something like Python, in noisier languages like C those numbers are bigger, but it's still the same amount of conceptual content if that makes sense.Understanding this is as big a deal as understanding the function. Literally. Once you do, whether or not the language has import statements isn't relevant. They're a very nice feature just because that lets you not have to figure out names that are unique across your 1 line codebase, and because things like unit tests can avoid essentially importing all the code and starting the whole program just to test if writing save files works. But you can do modularity right in BGT, sure. BGT is bad, but it's not worse than C with respect to modularity, and people do modularity right in C as well using the same techniques as you could use in BGT (C also doesn't have namespaces).If you've ever written a project that's gone exactly as far as you've planned it and then you've wanted to extend it further and it's suddenly a huge headache to do so because everything is inflexible and every time you try to change it you have to touch all the files and change stuff and it's just like ugh I might as well have thrown this out and rewritten it, that's almost always modularity gone wrong.Point being "namespaces are unusable and annoyi
Re: Why do people still use bgt?
Re: Why do people still use bgt? @58 Some people just don't have the aptitude for it; I'm one of them. I can go so far and no further. That's not what I mean. I'm not calling people lazy because they can't learn it. I'm calling them lazy when they are already coding but are denying the fact that BGT is at its end and just simply will not move on from it. They know something and they flat out refuse to do anything different even faced with overwhelming evidence that BGT is dead. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/571851/#p571851 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Why do people still use bgt?
Re: Why do people still use bgt? 57, I'm still confused as to how exactly the way BGT does this is bad?So you have everything in one giant namespace. What exactly is the issue? I can just include all of my includes at the beginning of the main script, or heck even make a separate file for my includes and then include that in the main script, and it just works. That looks a lot cleaner, to me at least. No importing things all over the place, no module.submodule.cat.meow.thing everywhere. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/571807/#p571807 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Why do people still use bgt?
Re: Why do people still use bgt?
Haha reading this thread makes me feel a bit self-conscious I guess. I'm not even sure why I'm posting this, I guess I'm just that bored.ironcross32 wrote:It can be summed up in the following sentence. If you use BGT, you are lazy and unwilling to learn. That's it, full stop.Not really sure how I feel about this.When I was a teenager, probably from ages 12-16, I wanted to make games and programs. I had no clue how to learn to program, but I felt like I could learn if I had a starting point. But even BGT goes above my head. I know variables, if statements and how to use the built-in functions, but I can't put it all together right, which you sort of need to do to write user functions, user classes and make a game. The manual, as well-written as it may or may not be, even confuses me after a very short while, yet underneath that I can see it's trying to be as approachable as possible for a complete newcomer, so I'm not sure what to make of it.When I try to think of coding a project, my brain twists itself up into knots. So I end up spamming if statements, creating waaay more variables than I need, because they're constructs my little brain can follow, sort of. I refrain from touching user functions or the other outer limits of what I think I understand, because it's too painful for me to work out how to use those to put something together, and then to debug it. The only time I'll use them is if I'm thinking especially clearly one day and can sort of form a picture of why I'm doing this and have the energy to tackle it. Kinda feels like my mind is just a bit slow in the uptake.As an example: void main()
{
int x=add_numbers(3, 5);
alert("Wow", "3 + 5 is... " + x + "!");
}
int add_numbers(int first, int second)
{
int result=first+second;
return result;
}That confused me waaay more than it should have. We're talking days and it was probably one of the most creative humbling experience I've had in a long while, as petty as that may sound. Once I did figure out what the various parts actually meant, my first thought was, "why didn't they write it like this?"//step 1 make the function
int add_numbers(int FirstNumber, int SecondNumber)
{
return FirstNumber+SecondNumber;
}
//show the function working
void main()
{
alert("Wow", "3 + 5 is... " + AddNumbers(3,5) + "!");
}Or... why even use a function at all? I could do that in less code without the function.Then in frustration I came to the realization that I was missing the point and none of that mattered. Yet, without thinking that way, I would still be stuck on functions. I wouldn't know why user functions are so important. I do understand it now, but only becaus I spent that ridiculous amount of time working it all out.If, that example, was enough to drain me, then how could I start anything significant enough to get excited about? Sometimes I go back and forth wondering how much effort I should put into this, but one thing's for sure, if BGT is tripping me up this much, I wont' be using anything else any time soon unless it is just as simple. Call me lazy if you like, but hey, I'm trying, and I have a lot of respect for people who can do more than me, even if they're lazy and not willing to use something decent in the game development world.I guess the smart thing to do would be to accept I can't do it and give up. Making games and programs was probably just a stupid childhood dream anyway. Still, when my friends either use BGT and won't change their minds, or decide to move on, I feel at a bit of a loss, like I'm missing out on something just out of my reach.Ah well, I guess it's similar to my chiptune stuff; there's a certain way of understanding music and sound that's unique to working with retro sound chips. Some people naturally take to it and others do not. I'm actually more surprised that I do, since I had very little exposure to electronic music until I was in high school, and the exposure I did get wasn't very encouraging. I didn't like it much and the people around me didn't seem to either, but I guess I still managed to hold onto the curiosity that kept me wondering how certain sounds were made, so chiptunes became a really big hobby of mine since around 2010, and I'm becoming increasingly less reclusive now because I'm finding outlets for it. I hang out especially often with fully sighted creative chiptune music types, not the big demoscene people or anything, just random people who enjoy making chiptunes and who I think are good at it. I guess that natural aptitude is similar with programming and I just don't have it.But yeah, this is called the dev room for a reason. People discuss development of games. I'm just envious of those who actually have something to contribute to the BGT discussion. My mind goes back to the aspirations I used to have, that I might, by this point in life, be contributing directly to said discussion.That said, if
Re: Why do people still use bgt?
Re: Why do people still use bgt?
Haha reading this thread makes me feel a bit self-conscious I guess. I'm not even sure why I'm posting this, I guess I'm just that bored.ironcross32 wrote:It can be summed up in the following sentence. If you use BGT, you are lazy and unwilling to learn. That's it, full stop.Not really sure how I feel about this.When I was a teenager, probably from ages 12-16, I wanted to make games and programs. I had no clue how to learn to program, but I felt like I could learn if I had a starting point. But even BGT goes above my head. I know variables, if statements and functions, but I can't put it all together right, which you sort of need to do to write classes and then to write a game. The manual, as well-written as it may or may not be, even confuses me after a very short while, yet underneath that I can see it's trying to be as approachable as possible for a complete newcomer, so I'm not sure what to make of it.When I try to think of coding a project, my brain twists itself up into knots. So I end up spamming if statements, creating waaay more variables than I need, because they're constructs my little brain can follow, sort of. I refrain from touching functions or the other outer limits of what I think I understand, because it's too painful for me to work out how to use those to put something together, and then to debug it. The only time I'll use them is if I'm thinking especially clearly one day and can sort of form a picture of why I'm doing this and have the energy to tackle it. Kinda feels like my mind is just a bit slow in the uptake.As an example: void main()
{
int x=add_numbers(3, 5);
alert("Wow", "3 + 5 is... " + x + "!");
}
int add_numbers(int first, int second)
{
int result=first+second;
return result;
}That confused me waaay more than it should have. We're talking days and it probably the most creative humbling experience ever, as petty as that may sound. Once I did figure out what the various parts actually meant, my first thought was, "why didn't they write it like this?"//step 1 make the function
int add_numbers(int FirstNumber, int SecondNumber)
{
return FirstNumber+SecondNumber;
}
//show the function working
void main()
{
alert("Wow", "3 + 5 is... " + AddNumbers(3,5) + "!");
}Or... why even use a function at all? I could do that in less code without the function.Then in frustration I came to the realization that I was missing the point and none of that mattered. yet, without thinking that way, I would still be stuck on functions.If, that, was enough to confuse me, then how could I start anything significant enough to get excited about? Sometimes I go back and forth wondering how much effort I should put into this, but one thing's for sure, if BGT is tripping me up this much, I wont' be using anything else any time soon unless it is just as simple. Call me lazy if you like, but hey, I'm trying, and I have a lot of respect for people who can do more than me, even if they're lazy and not willing to use something decent in the game development world.I guess the smart thing to do would be to accept I can't do it and give up. Making games and programs was probably just a stupid childhood dream anyway. Still, when my friends either use BGT and won't change their minds, or decide to move on, I feel at a bit of a loss, like I'm missing out on something just out of my reach.Ah well, I guess it's similar to my chiptune stuff; there's a certain way of understanding music and sound that's unique to working with retro sound chips. Some people naturally take to it and others do not. I'm actually more surprised that I do, since I had very little exposure to electronic music until I was in high school, and the exposure I did get wasn't very encouraging. I didn't like it much and the people around me didn't seem to either, but I guess I still managed to hold onto the curiosity that kept me wondering how certain sounds were made, so chiptunes became a really big hobby of mine since around 2010, and I'm becoming increasingly less reclusive now because I'm finding outlets for it. I hang out especially often with fully sighted creative chiptune music types, not the big demoscene people or anything, just random people who enjoy making chiptunes and are good at it. I guess that natural aptitude is similar with programming and I just don't have it.But yeah this is called the dev room for a reason. People discuss development of games. I'm just envious of those who actually have something to contribute to the BGT discussion, and the aspirations I used to have that I might, by this point in life, be contributing directly to said discussion.
URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/571759/#p571759
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Re: Why do people still use bgt?
Re: Why do people still use bgt? @56The problem people are having, meatbag in specific if I remember the thread correctly, is the completely literal interpretation of the above statement. I'm not being figurative. People have issues with modules because they end up in a situation where they want to import literally every file in the project from literally every other file in the project because BGt is C++-style includes done wrong and in BGT you can just do that and it's sort of fine. I mean it's obviously not fine, but in the sense of "this compiles" it's fine.You're supposed to get a tree, but people end up with a complete graph in other words, and then it's "but this language doesn't allow cyclic imports" or whatever on the side that knows what they're doing, and "but this works in BGT and C++ done wrong, that must mean it's a good idea and I'm going to keep doing it, stop telling me that I organize code badly" on the other. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/571710/#p571710 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Why do people still use bgt?
Re: Why do people still use bgt? @55, what do you mean by "importing modules from every other module" exactly? I do that all the time to facilitate code reuse (e.g.: I write code in one module of my project and then "use"/"import"/"#include"/... it when I need it). URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/571659/#p571659 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Why do people still use bgt?
Re: Why do people still use bgt? @54I don't get this argument. If those things were so valuable then every programming language would offer them. But in reality any sizable BGT project is either going to be a huge mess or you're going to have separated it into "modules" anyway. Code something over a couple thousand lines that way and you'll have to throw it out. Most games that aren't just "I wrote a tiny card game" are over that size.If you find yourself literally importing every module from every other module then you should go learn about how to structure your code. It's not a problem with module systems. It's a problem with the developer and a problem with BGT. The developer because they have been told by tons of us on here that it's bad and haven't bothered to look, and BGT for not actually showing you how to do it as any remotely decent new programmer resource would and does. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/571569/#p571569 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Why do people still use bgt?
Re: Why do people still use bgt? I actually agree with post 53 even when Post 53 rank is blast Bay tool user. I valued it when I switched to python. Why should I need to access sounds in my speak module. Why should I need to access the the map module in my main menu. Etc URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/571564/#p571564 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Why do people still use bgt?
Re: Why do people still use bgt? @52Every other language has every feature you mentioned. Python can do globals for example no problem. And bgt does have virtual methods, everything that lets you do inheritance does.But the coding practices BGT tells you to use only let you make small projects, so even in BGT you have to learn how to not have access to all the sounds from everywhere in the code. I'm not sure if you're just offering an explanation or saying that you think that those things make BGT worth using. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/571540/#p571540 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Why do people still use bgt?
Re: Why do people still use bgt? Why people use bgt?No virtual methods required, none complicated classes to have an access to the sound from everywhere in the code, global variables, which are globals, not pretend. And so on.. Easy, limited and does not force to learn some new technologies to do something. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/571512/#p571512 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Why do people still use bgt?
Re: Why do people still use bgt? As someone who is a programmer first and a game dev second, I think BGT is used as a gaming language only so it's more of a passive language if that makes sense. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/564967/#p564967 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Why do people still use bgt?
Re: Why do people still use bgt? @49If you're switching over to Python anyways, I'd love to point you at Earwax, which is a Python library I'm writing for making audiogames.So far it has 1 active user: me, and I'd love to get feedback from other developers.Also, I think it's got a lot to recommend it, and would like others to either agree and pat me on the head like a good doggy, or disabuse me of the notion, and explain why so I can improve things. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/564929/#p564929 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Why do people still use bgt?
Re: Why do people still use bgt? I am slowly transferring over to Python thanks to the help of some friends. I have noticed that BGT is starting to get worse for things, so I'm slowly exitting the world of BGT. Thanks to a few friends of mine I can now make basic games in Python. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/564841/#p564841 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Why do people still use bgt?
Re: Why do people still use bgt? @47Yes. But I don't think you can get access anyway. If you have docs on the procedure for this, I'd love to see them. It's probably impractical, but one of the things that kills subscription-based services for audiogames is that the fees taken out by the processors are too high by far to let you do $3/month stuff or something.Almost certainly not something that can be done, and almost certainly not something I have the time for, but if this were fixable--even with Herculian effort--it'd be cool to at least know how. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/563702/#p563702 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Why do people still use bgt?
Re: Why do people still use bgt? @46, by processing credit cards ourselves in 38 I meant contacting the bank, charging the account, all that, on your own servers. So what Stripe/PayPal does, but on your own servers. When you do that you gotta go for PCI-DSS or no one will trust you. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/563695/#p563695 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Why do people still use bgt?
Re: Why do people still use bgt? @38As far as I know, you can't actually process credit cards yourself, end of story. If you know of a way, however, I'm interested.@40As others have said this has basically been done.@44Sighted people can't tell the difference between crappy HRTF and good HRTF for the most part, and most don't wear headphones. Everyone realized that at once. It's actually making a comeback in things like the Oculus, though, where it's valuable from a broad market forces perspective.Java audio sucks because Java isn't for games. Never has been, never will be. It gets used there anyway and even works reasonably, but Oracle isn't going "I know, let's support game programmers" and never has.I've heard that the reason that audio got killed in Vista is that the drivers for it were running in kernel mode, nd half the sound cards had unstable drivers, and it was doing stupid stuff like blue screening servers. But that's only from the rumor mill and I don't know how true it is, though I would certainly believe it.Mind you, the one thing that does get forgotten--frequently even by me--is that the old 3D audio solutions were a $300 card that you had to buy, so there is also that. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/563687/#p563687 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Why do people still use bgt?
Re: Why do people still use bgt? @42Thanks for the manual, I shall have a read, although it sounds like most of the good stuff is already in the 21st century anyways.@43OK, so that leave me even more confused as to why BGT is still hanging on, if everything it has to offer (plus more) is already implemented in Python haha.@44The exe thing sounds nice, although of course we have pyinstaller. I can see why BGT handling everything would be nice though. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/563589/#p563589 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Why do people still use bgt?
Re: Why do people still use bgt? Yeah it's mostly just "BGT sound just works and I don't need to do anything extra to my sound files to get started." Also compiling to exe in two keystrokes / one CLI command. The only other time I got "it just works" sound was _javascript_ in IE6, which forced you to load everything at the very beginning and often broke the whole game if something went wrong oar load and good luck doing anything about it.Thanks to a very readable example with Java sound, I was able to get a decent enough wrapper with mostly the same functionality from IE6. Then I eventually tracked down how to expand the available file formats, and to sort through the mixers for the desired features. Then I switched computers and the only available mixer to Java did not support stereo panning. So BGT or Python it was, and everything I could find in Python was either overly limited, unreliable, or too much of a headache to be worth the trouble of switching.So yay Lucia, I guess.I'm not sure what the under-the-hood reason is for why sound engines are so ... *points up* that. It makes more sense if you read the history backward. We went from confusing highly limited but 3D™ software solutions with perplexing licenses and loads of setup / unintuitive structures, to BGT being allowed by antiviruses, to Java having a more extensible solution, to Microsoft having a convenient set of libraries and utilities and supporting hardware solutions for all the formats and effects. It's like ... the history of NASA, or something. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/563582/#p563582 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Why do people still use bgt?
Re: Why do people still use bgt? Sorry for double posting, but Chris, I tried that as well a while back. Things like the soundPool, soundpositioning and things like that are actually really useful when ported. But a lot of BGT's functions are in python's STD lib or just an import away. For example string_split() in BGT is string.split() in Python. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/563573/#p563573 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Why do people still use bgt?
Re: Why do people still use bgt? Hi. Not sure how helpful this is, but here is the BGT manual. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/563570/#p563570 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Why do people still use bgt?
Re: Why do people still use bgt? Lucia literally got the most of BGT can do. The missing features Python can cover it with its native functions and methods URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/563565/#p563565 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Why do people still use bgt?
Re: Why do people still use bgt? As someone who hasn't actually learnt BGT, I wonder how feasible or difficult it would be to replicate it's feature set in Python?I mean, surely the functions could be converted like-for-like, then instead of saying "You use BGT, you're an idiot", you could say "If you're not interested in learning beyond BGT, you can learn a bit of Python and use this python-bgt library".Just a thought.If anyone has a copy of the BGT manual lying around that I could read, I'd be interested to do my own feasibility study. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/563550/#p563550 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Why do people still use bgt?
Re: Why do people still use bgt? oh? i think, i mean, i say this. as for the name says, blasbay game toolkit. it's just a game toolkit. but, i don't like it because if i learn bgt then i will not get other skills like frontend, backend etc. as i say, t's just audio game toolkit but nothing it can do other than audio games URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/563511/#p563511 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Why do people still use bgt?
Re: Why do people still use bgt? @37, writing a billing system in BGT? Now that would be... interesting, to say the least. And good luck with PCI-DSS compliance if your crazy enough to say "Oh lets process credit cards ourselves". URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/563496/#p563496 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Why do people still use bgt?
Re: Why do people still use bgt? @36I mean, it should probably be pointed out that most of those other skills are part of game development, too. If not for you, then for others.I was going to say good luck writing a billing system in BGT, and then I actually realized that it's kind of odd people haven't been asking how to do exactly that. I feel like there's a point or a lesson there but I don't know what it is. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/563458/#p563458 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Why do people still use bgt?
Re: Why do people still use bgt? Funnily enough, I was one of those twelve year olds who picked up Bgt because I wanted to make games. I was lucky enough to meet people a lot older than me who showed me that there's more to the field of Programming, Computer Science even, than just games. However, that only came after a horribly bumpy road, that still leaves it's marks on me three or so years later. When I code, I still see the stupid mistakes, I often get confused over things that I rightfully shouldn't at my level, and the main reason I see for this is Bgt.Another good point, is that you can't do much more than games with Bgt. You can make like... I don't know, a music player? And even that requires you to jump through some hoops with skills that someone who learned purely from the Bgt manual, especially in disjointed manners as most people seem to do, are not going to understand.Going into the world of Python showed me that there is a lot more to Computer Science than games. There's web design, database management, backend design, the list goes on.Also, the people who hope to turn there Bgt... skills... into a career are in for a shock, as they're going to show these games they've made to there interviewer and get laughed at. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/563454/#p563454 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Why do people still use bgt?
Re: Why do people still use bgt? unnily enough, I was one of those twelve year olds who picked up Bgt because I wanted to make games. I was lucky enough to meet people a lot older than me who showed me that there's more to the field of Programming, Computer Science even, than just games. However, that only came after a horribly bumpy road, that still leaves it's marks on me three or so years later. When I code, I still see the stupid mistakes, I often get confused over things that I rightfully shouldn't at my level, and the main reason I see for this is Bgt.Another good point, is that you can't do much more than games with Bgt. You can make like... I don't know, a music player? And even that requires you to jump through some hoops with skills that someone who learned purely from the Bgt manual, especially in disjointed manners as most people seem to do, are not going to understand.Going into the world of Python showed me that there is a lot more to Computer Science than games. There's web design, database management, backend design, the list goes on.Also, the people who hope to turn there Bgt... skills... into a career are in for a shock, as they're going to show these games they've made to there interviewer and get laughed at. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/563454/#p563454 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Why do people still use bgt?
Re: Why do people still use bgt? @32I think that @31 is being much too harsh, because even learning to write a little program is actually very hard, especially for the age groups here (no matter how you slice it, being 15 doesn't work out so well with being able to think about huge projects methodically).But there is a pretty big difference between Unity and BGT. The sighted gaming equivalent of BGT is something like RPG Maker. Unity enables you, by giving you a bunch of capabilities you don't otherwise have, and it doesn't lock you into the ecosystem by being niche--you have all of the C# ecosystem, bringing third party stuff in isn't hard (in fact it can be as little as clicking a couple buttons), etc. If Unity said "I know, let's use an incredibly niche scripting language, and all our 3D graphics engine is you can call draw_triangle", they might be equivalent. Unity also doesn't hand-hold you by simplifying itself for the sake of being easy to learn: in fact, if I'm not mistaken, using it pretty immediately makes you deal with learning about entity component systems, since that's the only way to be efficient on modern hardware (but I might be wrong--we can't actually try using it, after all).But BGT gives you a bunch of subpar functions specifically aimed at newbie programmers that you can never, ever move beyond without leaving it; you can't call anything beyond the most basic of basic C libraries; you're using a niche scripting language; and these days, you have to explain to someone how they need to give you an exception to their antivirus. The language is even missing incredibly basic features like proper closures that even C++ has nowadays. Unity is like a lever: you can do a lot more with the same amount of effort. BGT is like an anti-lever: you do a lot less, instead.I would say that it would be highly accurate to say that people who keep using BGT and aren't working on leaving it are happy with their skill level. It's a pretty low skill level. But this is a community that skews very, very young, and I think that to most people here, the sorts of basic games that get produced are actually entertaining. In fact, thinking about it, I'd be interested to see some sort of representative poll as to age groups: I'm betting we're at least 50% under 18, at least 25% under 16, and that it drops off relatively quickly starting around 20. In order to demand more complexity and power from your tools, you first have to demand more complexity and depth in what you produce, and this community isn't an audience that asks for such things--instead you get praise because we settle for what little exists for fear of losing it and discouraging young minds and new programmers, and no one is willing to say "You know, this isn't actually fun".I know lots of people, myself included, who just don't play audiogames anymore. Because the thing is, the same forces that make everyone praise BGT also mean that audiogames are just a thing you age out of. You can't eat tiny appetizers forever, eventually you want an actual meal, to use a lame analogy. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/563388/#p563388 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Why do people still use bgt?
Re: Why do people still use bgt? There are projects that work well enough in BGT, but not the things people generally want to do with it. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/563387/#p563387 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Why do people still use bgt?
Re: Why do people still use bgt? @31:As was proven in another topic back in the day, Aaron Baker has an updated version of BGT. Honestly I'd put money on him having the source code as well but that's really beside the point of this topic. The point is that Aaron can make BGT do whatever he wants now, and Manamon2 is really not outside the scope of the public build of BGT anyways. Updated Angelscript libs would just add new features that were probably useful in the development of Manamon2 (anonymous functions, error handling, implicit casting, whatever). The feature that trims SAPI speech so that there aren't weird delays with some voices probably was not coded in the scripting language either, was probably coded in C++.So is Aaron's use of BGT for Manamon2 lazy? No, I don't think so, and I think there are other developers who can do cool things with it as well. Obviously there's Pragma who was mentioned before, but Sam Tupy immediately comes to mind as well. He no longer starts new projects in BGT either, but some of the things that he's doing in current ones are really stretching the boundaries of BGT. But they work anyways, and I would not say that coding your own scripting language constitutes laziness either. My opinion on BGT still remains the same. Use it if it works within the boundaries of what you are creating. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/563385/#p563385 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Why do people still use bgt?
Re: Why do people still use bgt? Why does BGT constitute laziness? Why doesn’t unity carry the same weight? After all, it is still a game engine, or a framework to build games on. Why do the mainstream languages not carry the same connotation? After all, typical games are made in something like C++, so why isn’t everything else not considered lazy? Laziness defines effort. It does not define the tools you use. This is why, though dying, BGT is still capable of producing some amazing projects if people put their mind to it. I can go frown down on somebody else for using C-sharp over python for game development. For me, they are lazy, At least by your standards. You cannot automatically label something as taking a lazy path out. You condemned me for being foolish in another thread, and now I must do likewise. It is foolish to put a general label on the language and not on those who use it. Even then, such a label rarely applies to all of the community, as it is highly subjective and is impacted by individuality URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/563375/#p563375 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Why do people still use bgt?
Re: Why do people still use bgt? Why does BGT constitute laziness? Why doesn’t unity carry the same weight? After all, it is still a game engine, or a framework to build games on. Why do the mainstream languages not carry the same connotation? After all, typical games are made in something like C++, so why isn’t everything else not considered lazy? Laziness defines effort. It does not define the tools you use. This is why, though dying, BGT is still capable of producing some amazing projects if people put their mind to it. I can go frown down on somebody else for using C-sharp over python for game development. For me, they are lazy, At least by your standards. You cannot automatically label something as taking a lazy path out. You condemned me for being foolish in another Fred, and now I must do likewise. It is foolish to put a general label on the language and not on those who use it. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/563375/#p563375 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Why do people still use bgt?
Re: Why do people still use bgt? Aaron could have created Manamon 2 in another language, so yes, he is lazy. Pragma, well that project is still ongoing so doesn't really count. This was back when BGT still had relevance, and it makes no sense to spend the time porting it to another language because BGT really isn't holding it back. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/563357/#p563357 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Why do people still use bgt?
Re: Why do people still use bgt? @ironcross32, while I agree with most of your post, I disagree with the way you expressed yourself at the end:"It can be summed up in the following sentence. If you use BGT, you are lazy and unwilling to learn."That is incorrect. Is it mostly true? Perhaps. However, it is wrong to place all those who pick up BGT under the laziness category. Take Aaron Baker or Pragma, for example. Are they lazy?I believe that you meant for people to read this as a generality, I just want to make it absolutely clear that it is such. No more, no less. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/563355/#p563355 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Why do people still use bgt?
Re: Why do people still use bgt? There is no excuse for continuing to use it IMO. Sheer laziness is the only thing you can cite as a reason for not. Yes, I get it's harder. yes, I get that you have to contend with libs and dependencies and that sucks. That's not an excuse though. It all falls back to laziness and an unwillingness to learn. Hell, even when people use BGT, they still have an unwillingness to learn. Look at how many games that have come and gone that are built on the same frameworks. Look at how few of those games were coded from scratch.It can be summed up in the following sentence. If you use BGT, you are lazy and unwilling to learn. That's it, full stop. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/563343/#p563343 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Why do people still use bgt?
Re: Why do people still use bgt? i don't use bgt. because i wan't to make every thing not only games. i use python. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/563249/#p563249 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Why do people still use bgt?
Re: Why do people still use bgt? First page seemed pretty thorough, imo.I suppose I have no good reason to not use BGT, since I just suck at making games worth sharing, so there's no incentive. It's not caused by BGT; I did _javascript_ in the IE6 days, and Java. I ported my games from Java / _javascript_ to BGT because of redistribution troubles. Ironic that now BGT has distribution issues.Although, ten freakin' years have passed, so I guess I've somehow been on BGT longer than I'd done the others when it came out. But to be fair, the past decade was so uneventful, that it was more of a montage of montages. Other than 2016. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/563172/#p563172 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Why do people still use bgt?
Re: Why do people still use bgt? Just bringing this topic back to the top, just in case anyone else has any more opinions. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/563096/#p563096 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Why do people still use bgt?
2020-05-21
Thread
AudioGames . net Forum — Developers room : manamon_player via Audiogames-reflector
Re: Why do people still use bgt? when bgt can meet your needs, then you don't go for other programs: this is why I didn't tryed other languages URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/532049/#p532049 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Why do people still use bgt?
Re: Why do people still use bgt? @23That wouldn't be enough. The problem with something like Sable is that you can't swap the underlying mechanics. You can put all sorts of restrings on things--maybe fireball becomes laser gun and mana becomes electricity and now you've got robots. But combat, walking, etc. will all be the same. While story is important, it doesn't make the game, and in something like Sable you basically can't ever do a unique game mechanic. It will be turn-based combat with whatever the core actions are forever, not even as much variation as the early Final Fantasy games had. And this can't be overcome without a scripting language and access to things at the heart of the engine.Variables and if statements are probably cool but the problem is that anything complicated needs you to use a text editor because a typical game mechanic will be 10 to 20 variables and as many to more if statements. Plus you also need loops. And you really, really want comments so you can remember what the hell you did in 3 months.In my opinion, they needed to stop and actually make games, rather than try to build this epic engine that they'd then make games with. I'm sure Sable will be cool to play with for a lot of people, but the amount of benefit they're getting out of the effort they put in isn't worth having put the effort in, and this will be forgotten 6 months to a year after whenever they release an official version because all the games will be the same but with different stories. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/531970/#p531970 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Why do people still use bgt?
Re: Why do people still use bgt? Sable could be so much more than it is right now by just giving three basic tools to the creator on top of the ones already there. If statements that make trigger stuff happen or spawn stuff when certain conditions are met, custom variables you can attach to things like items or npcs that make things happen, and custom classes where you can set up a class as a container and designate abilities that the characters learn at various levels. Conditionals and variables are things everyone should be able to grasp without any previous programming knowledge, hell you can't get past school maths if you don't know what a variable is and how to work with them in equasions. These are also things just about every game needs, and without them, Sable just limits itself even more than it already is purely by the fact it's an engine with no scripting at all. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/531963/#p531963 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Why do people still use bgt?
Re: Why do people still use bgt? Sable could be so much more than it is right now by just giving three basic tools to the dreator on top of the ones already there. If statements that make trigger stuff happen or spawn stuff when certain conditions are met, custom variables you can attach to things like items or npcs that make things happen, and custom classes where you can set up a class as a container and designate abilities that the characters learn at various levels. Conditionals and variables are things everyone should be able to grasp without any previous programming knowledge, hell you can't get past school maths if you don't know what a variable is and how to work with them in equasions. These are also things just about every game needs, and without them, Sable just limits itself even more than it already is purely by the fact it's an engine with no scripting at all. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/531963/#p531963 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Why do people still use bgt?
Re: Why do people still use bgt? @16My point isn't about content generation tools. My point is about no stepping stones. You can't go from BGT to Python easily because BGT protects you from too much.If you're sighted most of the tools you might learn in use mainstream programming languages, and you can outgrow them in turn while not switching languages. I use Unity as an example not because Unity provides a bunch of content generation tools, but because it's a good example of something where you don't have to reinvent the world.You could move from the good old RPG Maker to Love to making browser games with any of the enumerable easily make a browser game toolkits to Unity to "now I need to make my own engine" because you want to write an RTS that involves modifying the past as a game mechanic (which is actually a real game someone did).What are BGT people supposed to climb up to? I see BGT to Python hunt-the-library. Or C# hunt-the-library and fight VS. Or PureBasic, which is literally C with a different syntax with all the problems that entails. There's no intermediate steps.@18To be clear, I think you can succeed and someone does need to do the work. You just haven't succeeded yet. Succeeding at this is a huge project, and drawing users is a complicated thing to manage.Unfortunately, because BGT has dominance, how you draw users is you figure out how to offer something BGT doesn't have. The advantages of not using BGT are numerous, but you have to get as far as not using BGT to see why first, and nothing we say to a BGT person is going to convince them because it's only obvious in hindsight how this solves problems. So unfortunately you have to do better than you should have to in order to start the shift.@19As far as I know Sable is BGT. If not, then I don't know why people have reported the antivirus issue. It started 3 years ago I believe, and they haven't managed to get nearly as far as they should have, so I wouldn't say anything was programmed for them by Philip.You can take BGT as far as writing an Angelscript implementation in BGT if you're feeling masochistic enough and want to sink huge amounts of time in. It can be pushed as far as Sable wanted to push it.Sable could have been good if done by someone with enough skill to pull it off, in a language sufficiently advanced that you can embed Lua or JS as a scripting language. But as far as I can tell they're at the point where they're skilled enough to try but not skilled enough to have done it right, their entire selling point is "you don't have to program" which can't actually work out in practice if we want games that aren't clones of each other until the end of time, and BGT has fundamental limitations that stop you embedding a scripting language even if you decided to and writing one from scratch that's good enough to write complicated game mechanics in without things like parser generators is incredibly hard and requires a working knowledge of computer science as opposed to just programming.Sable is basically the current example of how you shouldn't be writing game engines for others until you've become a very, very good programmer. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/531954/#p531954 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Why do people still use bgt?
Re: Why do people still use bgt? People are still using bgt because it's easy. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/531935/#p531935 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Why do people still use bgt?
2020-05-21
Thread
AudioGames . net Forum — Developers room : Jaidon Of the Caribbean via Audiogames-reflector
Re: Why do people still use bgt? I think Sable will be an unfortunate push in the wrong direction. I think now that folks know you can do these things with bgt they won't switch. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/531908/#p531908 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Why do people still use bgt?
2020-05-21
Thread
AudioGames . net Forum — Developers room : Jaidon Of the Caribbean via Audiogames-reflector
Re: Why do people still use bgt? It's for me a blind of what defender says. I'm using it because it's simple, and does what I want it to do and quick. I'm also still on BGT to hold me off until I fully understand python, or dip my finger in PB. For the most part, everyone has switched accept for Aaron Baker, BEVGAMES and a few others. I didnt know Sable was BGT, maybe Phillip maybe programmed some resources for ESS. Tbh I thought something like that was impossible, then again, I should remember what my PE teacher says. Anything is possible, not plausable URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/531907/#p531907 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Why do people still use bgt?
Re: Why do people still use bgt? Hi.I tend to agree with what @camlorn and @magurp244 and others has been saying.I simply wanted to address it from the point of me developing lucia.So the licensing issue, is something we (mainly I) was made aware was a problem especially when dealing with python.It is something I am looking into that people are welcome to comment on hereRelating, I am mostly the only one at the time, that's actually still coding on lucia, so things take longer then expected, so if people want to help, they are more then welcome to contact me or join the LuciaSoftware discordSable. Don't even get me started on Sable. When I heard about it, I was optimistic. Then the alpha came out, and I saw, that it was just repackaged bgt with a bunch of stuff on top of it. This made me both very sad and kinda angry (I might write about it at a later stage). URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/531885/#p531885 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Why do people still use bgt?
Re: Why do people still use bgt? post 3 and 4 explains evrything, so i'm not going to say anything further. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/531884/#p531884 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Why do people still use bgt?
Re: Why do people still use bgt? @11In a sense thats true, BGT, much like other engines of its kind in the wider mainstream isn't of much value outside of itself. I can't for example drop a starcraft script into anything other than starcraft, but the concepts of that scripting: variables, loops, if/else logic, etc. are the educational component that translates beyond it. In much the same way that programming languages share core concepts, the purpose of such tools in education is a simplified sandbox to explore those concepts. But by their very nature they are limited, and its those limitations that encourages users to move on, provided they have the ambition to do so.@12What I meant by migration in the current context was more towards mainstream programming languages outside existing sandbox environments like BGT, as then people can at least have access to a wider pool of more flexible libraries, such as OpenAL, TTS, etc. But yeah, there's definitely a serious deficit of more sophisticated content creation and development tools and frameworks, which would go a long way towards helping make more diverse/sophisticated applications viable. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/531858/#p531858 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Why do people still use bgt?
2020-05-20
Thread
AudioGames . net Forum — Developers room : manamon_player via Audiogames-reflector
Re: Why do people still use bgt? simple, easy to use, bgt is so cool! URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/531851/#p531851 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Why do people still use bgt?
Re: Why do people still use bgt? @13I'm not saying BGT is more capable than other things, because it most certainly isn't. For example my point from earlier about there being no good physics or networking options is as true of BGT as anything else. Look at how many people have reimplemented collision or basic trig in it for example.The point I'm making is that there was a time where you downloaded VB6, opened notepad, and typed. No distribution problems. Full 3D audio. Tons and tons of tutorials. Think PureBasic without memory management issues, some Python-esk properties, the BGT philosophy of making the world simple and friendly at the cost of power, officially supported and maintained by Microsoft themselves, accessible IDE and GUI stuff, and as fast as you could hope for. Output was an exe you could pass around to your friends. It died in part because the world got more complicated than that approach can handle, but until something like 2007 or 2008 VB6 was a big, serious technology that you could easily get jobs in, and it's still around in the corporate world.The old "classic" developers for lack of a better word were developing in that environment. Basically the closest you could get to perfection, even by what most people want now. I can do everything but the 3D audio by virtue of being an experienced programmer, and I can apparently do the 3D audio by virtue of being me and being willing to put in absurd amounts of effort. But back then it just...didn't take anything. The market forces and everything else were right for people like Microsoft to be primarily targeting the new programmer in order to hook people on computers instead of primarily targeting the internet consumer and Netflix, or something. It's hard to put into words. I was there for the end of it only, but enough to get the vibe before the vibe was lost, and I know older people who remember it. We won't get it back.I'm not saying money wasn't important--it is, even to me. I'd guess probably 70% money and 30% the tools suck by what the older devs were used to from the early 2000s. But I wouldn't discount it. You can't ever beat having multi-billion dollar corporations investing huge amounts of money in things, and with VB6 things was sighted BGT. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/531848/#p531848 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Why do people still use bgt?
Re: Why do people still use bgt? @12Interesting point of view. Thanks for the insight.I do wonder though, if even those experienced coders had such a hard time migrating to other languages, how can we expect 16-year-old's to start learning Python when the solutions we have for making audio games development in that language seemingly aren't even a third of what BGT does. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/531830/#p531830 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Why do people still use bgt?
Re: Why do people still use bgt? Many of the previous generation of developers, those with more practical experience such as GMA Games, Blastbay, Draconus ETC, have realized that the audio games scene as it stands is not financially viable for living off of, or have simply outgrown gaming for the most part and have moved on to other things.Allot of these guys also had programming day jobs, or at least backgrounds in computer science.The majority of the current game developers in this generation are not skilled coders. Rather than getting into game coding after the fact, allot of them start coding specifically because they want to make games like the ones they enjoy playing.Most of them have an intense need to prove them selves and give back to the community, and are often impatient because of this. Having had no prier experience with working on a big, long term project, and largely still not adults, they have a really hard time swallowing the fact that games should take months or years, not weeks.BGT promises fast results for people without allot of experience, and as has been shown, it can be used to make some pretty amazing things when the right people use it for the right kinds of games, plus it can be a stepping stone for getting young adults interested in learning more complex languages or going into more professional programming.However when used as a shortcut for skill, it often results in a sub par product, and since those using it don't have the knowledge to understand how BGT limits them yet anyway, they tend to rebelle against what they see as overly critical adults trying to crush their creative spirit and just double down when told they are hurting them selves in the end by using it.This wouldn't be as much of a problem if the community wasn't so small and every game we got didn't mean something, but at this point the best thing to do would probably just be to tolerate it and try to help where possible. It's starting to swing that way more lately, which is good, but we still have allot of rivalry, dick measuring, and code steeling to deal with among the less mature new coders, and our solution so far has been to insult the hell out of them until they leave.That's something I've been guilty of my self, but at this point, they are our future weather we like it or not, and I think we need to be a bit more welcoming because mainstream and even indi accessible gaming is still moving quite slowly.All of the reasons listed above, from ease of use to visual learning are also important points, but I think this is the underlying bigger issue personally. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/531805/#p531805 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Why do people still use bgt?
Re: Why do people still use bgt? @7One thing that people forget about the GMA games generation of developers is that they had Visual basic in an era where programming was actually very accessible. CLI was still in vogue and you didn't fight IDEs all the time. Indeed, there were Jaws scripts for pre-VS 2008 for making forms that didn't have overlapping controls. As far as I can tell it's not actually nostalgia, it was actually that programming used to be more accessible from a completely literal does-the-screen-reader-work perspective. When I got my start in the mid 2000s, 75% or more of the tools I tried were accessible to some extent. It might take using the Jaws cursor, but chances were insert-IDE-here would work, and that was in my newbie screen reader learning period. It was before we lost accessible by default. Eclipse kind of hung on and is still around, and now we have VSCode, but after 2010 or so at the latest, there was a very long period of basically no accessible tooling, and the thing about tooling is that the tooling encodes a bunch of knowledge in it (where does the compiler live, how does the debugger work, etc).Linux was never a problem, but then audiogames aren't ever really for Linux, and windows dev is much more of a headache than it was once upon a time if you're sighted, let alone if you're blind.But that's not even the biggest thing. The biggest thing was DirectSound combined with VB6. DirectSound also never got a replacement. And this kind of sounds like I'm making a "yay! Synthizer!" point or something, but that's not it. If you put Visual Basic 6 and DirectSound together, you had the sighted equivalent of BGT. You didn't have to hunt, the manuals and learning resources were all there, indeed one of the reasons that certain parts of Windows suck at threads is supposedly that MS thought threading would be too complicated for VB6 people so they put a bunch of implicit stuff into Windows that they had to go back on later. The world was just dropping opportunity after opportunity to learn it at you. Almost everyone who had an even halfway decent sound card was Creative so the world also made all the audio stuff that people dream about trivial, you had to go out of your way not to have HRTF and amazing reverb, it was there and it was on minus something like 20 extra lines of code to configure it in C++, probably less in VB.Plus DirectSound and all the related tooling were still in the era when you coded for them. Modern replacements to all of that, even the Microsoft ones that aren't full-featured engines, they start at "And now load the asset manager workbench and open the asset management options dialog. From here, follow these 5 steps and set these 3 options, and then you go over to this stub file and" and half the steps of that will be accessible. If you're lucky, but you usually aren't, and because you're blind if you are it's literally slower than just typing a line of code, or editing a text file and reloading the entire app.Money is certainly a big part of it. But consider what it was probably like for i.e. David Greenwood, the author of Shades of Doom. Wake up one day and Microsoft has announced that sorry, we're killing 95% of the audio quality of DirectX even for already-compiled apps. Nothing to be done. Wake up another day a year or two later and sorry no more VB6, you already couldn't use it because we don't update the bindings and things anymore, but haha now we're not distributing it with Windows (SOD is VB6 as far as I know, if it's not the point stands). I'd have left too. Being told that 1, you have to start over from scratch and 2, no matter what there is nothing, nothing you can do to equal the quality of XP...demoralizing isn't strong enough. I was a new programmer just getting started for that particular apocalypse and it was demoralizing, I can't imagine having had 5-10 years of work rendered worthless.@10There's nothing actually good anywhere, as someone who has tried for a long time. The RPG maker people have a pretty obvious migration path out: you go Unity for example, but there are lots and lots of things where you say "Maybe I'm outgrowing this. Let's learn something real" and the world just deluges you with opportunities to do that. Maybe Lucia is amazing, I haven't evaluated it. But from the sounds of it it's still quite immature. To be clear I'm glad it exists, I've just not heard anything about that being viable yet, and the license precludes commercialization or even being closed source at all because of how the LGPL interacts with Python.Sable is proud of the fact that it doesn't allow coding. Sable took 3 years. Go over to New Releases and read the thread. Sable doesn't let you build anything but fantasy RPGs and every time I look someone asks "is this customizable" and gets told no. We're going to get a bunch of games with the exact same classes and the exact same comb
Re: Why do people still use bgt?
Re: Why do people still use bgt? @10, my problem with that point of view is that BGT limits you to an extreme. I've always felt that getting started programming with BGT is just a terrible idea because it doesn't teach you the necessary skills to actually develop anything in anything but itself, hence the "vendor lock-in" situation -- BGT provides everything you could ever need and so there's no incentive to go digging around for what you need, and when there is that incentive you have no idea how, or refuse to learn how. This is, of course, despite the fact that, if I'm not mistaken, most education systems do teach you how to research things. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/531821/#p531821 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Why do people still use bgt?
Re: Why do people still use bgt? The Indie scene is generally populated by people who got their start wanting to make games, so I think there's some truth to that kind of organic community development. BGT is a good resource in the same sense that RPG Maker, Game Maker, or RenPy are good resources, and people have plenty of sighted tutorials, guides, and examples to migrate over to a programming language for similar results in a kind of developmental ecosystem. But those same resources weren't previously available from an audiogame perspective, how people migrate from a defined engine to general language usually depends on how easy, or easily understood, it is to get similar results towards an intended goal from one to the other. Alot of my time spent here has been to make myself available as a resource to answer any questions and provide easy to use examples for programming, from a strategic investment perspective how probable a persons given goal is doesn't matter so long as their engaged in learning, since that experience can be applied towards future projects. That experience can then be leveraged towards others who are interested in learning/migrating, and the effect snowballs. Its one of the reasons I find discouraging others or encouraging them to quit to be counter productive, the given goal isn't the only payoff in the long term.There's still a lot of areas that need inprovement in available tools and resources, but there's been some good progress in building migration pathways, and more selection with engines like Sable or Libre. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/531819/#p531819 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Why do people still use bgt?
Re: Why do people still use bgt? Many of the previous generation of developers, those with more practical experience such as GMA Games, Blastbay, Draconus ETC, have realized that the audio games scene as it stands is not financially viable for living off of, or have simply outgrown gaming for the most part and have moved on to other things.Allot of these guys also had programming day jobs, or at least backgrounds in computer science.The majority of the current game developers in this generation are not skilled coders. Rather than getting into game coding after the fact, allot of them start coding specifically because they want to make games like the ones they enjoy playing.Most of them have an intense need to prove them selves and give back to the community, and are often impatient because of this. Having had no prier experience with working on a big, long term project, and largely still not adults, they have a really hard time swallowing the fact that games should take months or years, not weeks.BGT promises fast results for people without allot of experience, and as has been shown, it can be used to make some pretty amazing things when the right people use it for the right kinds of games, plus it can be a stepping stone for getting young adults interested in learning more complex languages or going into more professional programming.However when used as a shortcut for skill, it often results in a sub par product, and since those using it don't have the knowledge to understand how BGT limits them yet anyway, they tend to rebelle against what they see as overly critical adults trying to crush their creative spirit and just double down when told they are hurting them selves in the end by using it.This wouldn't be as much of a problem if the community wasn't so small and every game we get meant something, but at this point the best thing to do would probably just be to tolerate it and try to help where possible. It's starting to swing that way more lately, which is good, but we still have allot of rivalry, dick measuring, and code steeling to deal with among the less mature new coders, and our solution so far has been to insult the hell out of them until they leave.That's something I've been guilty of my self, but at this point, they are our future weather we like it or not, and I think we need to be a bit more welcoming because mainstream and even indi accessible gaming is still moving quite slowly.All of the reasons listed above, from ease of use to visual learning are also important points, but I think this is the underlying bigger issue personally. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/531805/#p531805 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Why do people still use bgt?
Re: Why do people still use bgt? Many of the previous generation of developers, those with more practical experience such as GMA Games, Blastbay, Draconus ETC, have realized that the audio games scene as it stands is not financially viable for living off of, or have simply outgrown gaming for the most part and have moved on to other things.Allot of these guys also had programming day jobs, or at least backgrounds in computer science.The majority of the current game developers in this generation are not skilled coders. Rather than getting into game coding after the fact, allot of them start coding specifically because they want to make games like the ones they enjoy playing.Most of them have an intense need to prove them selves and give back to the community, and are often impatient because of this. Having had no prier experience with working on a big, long term project, and largely still not adults, they have a really hard time swallowing the fact that games should take months or years, not weeks.BGT promises fast results for people without allot of experience, and as has been shown, it can be used to make some pretty amazing things when the right people use it, plus it can be a stepping stone for getting young adults interested in learning more complex languages or going into more professional programming.However when used as a shortcut for skill, it often results in a sub par product, and since those using it don't have the knowledge to understand how BGT limits them yet anyway, they tend to rebelle against what they see as overly critical adults trying to crush their creative spirit and just double down.This wouldn't be as much of a problem if the community wasn't so small and every game we get meant something, but at this point the best thing to do would probably just be to tolerate it and try to help where possible. It's starting to swing that way more lately, which is good, but we still have allot of rivalry, dick measuring, and code steeling to deal with among the less mature new coders, and our solution so far has been to insult the hell out of them until they leave.That's something I've been guilty of my self, but at this point, they are our future weather we like it or not, and I think we need to be a bit more welcoming because mainstream and even indi accessible gaming is still moving quite slowly.All of the reasons listed above, from ease of use to visual learning are also important points, but I think this is the underlying bigger issue personally. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/531805/#p531805 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Why do people still use bgt?
Re: Why do people still use bgt? Yeah I know, it's pretty ironic. LOL URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/531813/#p531813 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Why do people still use bgt?
Re: Why do people still use bgt? hey defender! your rank is Blastbay tool user! and you talk against it... URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/531806/#p531806 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Why do people still use bgt?
Re: Why do people still use bgt? Many of the previous generation of developers, those with more practical experience such as GMA Games, Blastbay, Draconus ETC, have realized that the audio games scene as it stands is not financially viable for living off of, or have simply outgrown gaming for the most part and have moved on to other things.Allot of these guys had programming day jobs, or at least backgrounds in computer science.The majority of the current game developers in this generation are not skilled coders. Rather than getting into game coding after the fact, allot of them start coding specifically because of games.Most of them have an intense need to prove them selves and give back to the community, and are often impatient because of this. Having had no prier experience with working on a large, long term project, and largely still not adults.BGT promises fast results for people without allot of experience, and as has been shown, it can be used to make some pretty amazing things when the right people use it, plus it can be a stepping stone for getting young adults interested in learning more complex languages or going into more professional programming.However when used as a shortcut for skill, it often results in a sub par product, and since those using it don't have the knowledge to understand how BGT limits them yet anyway, they tend to rebelle against what they see as overly critical adults trying to crush their creative spirit and just double down.This wouldn't be as much of a problem if the community wasn't so small and every game we get meant something, but at this point the best thing to do would probably just be to tolerate it and try to help where possible. It's starting to swing that way more lately, which is good, but we still have allot of rivalry, dick measuring, and code steeling to deal with among the less mature new coders, and our solution so far has been to insult the hell out of them until they leave.That's something I've been guilty of my self, but at this point, they are our future weather we like it or not, and I think we need to be a bit more welcoming because mainstream and even indi accessible gaming is still moving quite slowly.All of the reasons listed above, from ease of use to visual learning are also important points, but I think this is the underlying bigger issue personally. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/531805/#p531805 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Why do people still use bgt?
Re: Why do people still use bgt? Many of the previous generation of developers, those with more practical experience such as GMA Games, Blastbay, Draconus ETC, have realized that the audio games scene as it stands is not financially viable for living off of, or have simply outgrown gaming for the most part and have moved on to other things.Allot of these guys had programming day jobs, or at least backgrounds in computer science.The majority of the current game developers in this generation are not skilled coders. Rather than getting into game coding after the fact, allot of them start coding specifically because of games.Most of them have an intense need to prove them selves and give back to the community, and are often impatient because of this. Having had no prier experience with working on a large, long term project, and largely still not adults.BGT promises fast results for people without allot of experience, and as has been shown, it can be used to make some pretty amazing things when the right people use it, plus it can be a stepping stone for getting young adults interested in learning more complex languages or going into more professional programming.However when used as a shortcut for skill, it often results in a sub par product, and since those using it don't have the knowledge to understand how BGT limits them yet anyway, they tend to rebelle against what they see as overly critical adults trying to crush their creative spirit and just double down.This wouldn't be as much of a problem if the community wasn't so small and every game we get meant something, but at this point the best thing to do would probably just be to tolerate it and try to help where possible. It's starting to swing that way more lately, which is good, but we still have allot of rivalry, dick measuring, and code steeling to deal with among the less mature new coders, and our solution so far has been to insult the hell out of them until they leave.That's something I've been guilty of my self, but at this point, they are our future weather we like it or not, and I think we need to be a bit more welcoming because mainstream and even indi accessible gaming is still moving quite slowly. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/531805/#p531805 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Why do people still use bgt?
Re: Why do people still use bgt? first: because its easy! for writing deacint audiogame its the easyest langwige to lirnsekind, everything you nead is there, no nead to search for a sound lib, no nead to search for a screan reader libraryI use it because of that URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/531798/#p531798 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Why do people still use bgt?
Re: Why do people still use bgt? I don't think the lack of reference is the problem. The reference for BGT is kind of neutral as far as I'm concerned, and the few times I looked at it I would even go so far as to say it's a little underdocumented. The problem with other things is that they're actually bigger, not that they're documented worse. Mind you there's lots of examples of documented terribly in programming. But I can point at lots of well-documented things for games and otherwise pretty easily. But in the wider programming universe:1. You have to be able and willing to use Google.2. You have to know your screen reader well.Which are both solvable to some extent by just saying "use this and this and this" because whatever it is has good documentation, and putting together a tutorial that shows how to combine the libraries. IMO the issue isn't finding the information, it's not knowing what information you need to find. I'll assume that anyone who wants to program knows their screen reader well, but maybe I'm wrong and being in the old CHM format with the treeview is that big of a deal. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/531796/#p531796 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Why do people still use bgt?
Re: Why do people still use bgt? I've written this in another topic. BGT is still a hit because of all the reasons above, plus the great didactics of the help file. It goes through programming basics such as variables, ifs, loops and classes, then jumps in to practical examples of how to use all of that. Also, the reference is really easy to use, really quick to find the function or class you need and read its parameters, its syntax and a working piece of code.Any new language or package aiming at killing BGT would need a documentation and tutorials at least as efficient. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/531794/#p531794 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Why do people still use bgt?
Re: Why do people still use bgt? It's because the sighted gaming tutorials are written for the sighted, with graphics first. You have three paths into game programming:1. Do a sighted gaming tutorial.2. Learn to program and then come to games.3. Grab BGT.Problem with 1 is they go on and on about graphics and stuff, and you don't know that it's still applicable because surely audiogames are different. If you knew enough about programming to not fall into BGT you wouldn't fall into the trap of thinking like that but you don't so you do.Problem with 2 is there's no motivation. Normal programming for the sighted, you get results easily. "Yay my web page is blue". "Yay it's an animated cat" or whatever. There's immediate win, even if it's not a game, you can take the web page you wrote to learn _javascript_ and show it to everyone. But if you're blind things stay theoretical for a very long time. If you want to do GUI you have to find an accessible thing, if you want to do web sites you can't show it off to anyone. Most people don't have the temperament to start at something like command line utilities forever, or JSON web services, or learning data structures, and most people can't look at an absurd salary in 5-10 years and let that motivate them either. You need the candy for lack of a better word.So 3, grab BGT. BGT says "here, this is how you play a sound". The gaming tutorial teaches you bad practice. But you don't know enough to know that yet, and you immediately get a rewarding experience irregardless of the endgame potential. So you dive into BGT, anything that says anything otherwise is this giant hill because omg Python packaging and all those things that the sighted game tutorials like to try to teach that BGT doesn't even touch on, and because BGT you didn't learn how to Google or find resources on your own either because there are no resources to be found. So hack hack hack on a project, and then what, throw out all your work? It's like a black hole. All the skills and things you need to be able to get out, you didn't learn them, you can't because it's too niche, so you're stuck. This is one of the primary reasons I used to push so hard against it back in the day, for those who remember that.And then, because audiogames.net is very small and very amateur, BGT being like a black hole sucked everyone in and the things that we needed to be building to have another more fully featured option never got built. So the last thing keeping people in BGT is, basically that everyone else is. No good option for audiogame physics in Python for instance, or anything else. The sighted stuff is too unconstrained. No good option for networking because the sighted stuff usually comes with a giant, inaccessible engine and can't be separated out. Etc. So unless you're skilled enough to invent the stack yourself or someone else has invented the stack for you, leave to what? And because BGT doesn't have resources to go beyond newbie levels of programming, get the skills to build the stack how?My current mission, which will take a long time, is to finally build the pieces of the stack (starting with Synthizer, in many ways the hardest bit), moving to physics and networking, and then who knows where from there. To get rid of BGT once and for all, we need that and an equivalent to BGT's tutorial that shows you how to set it all up, maybe a project template or something. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/531793/#p531793 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Why do people still use bgt?
Re: Why do people still use bgt?
I think it's mainly because everything's just right there. I mean all you need isvoid main() { sound meow; meow.load("meow.ogg"); meow.play_wait(); exit();}and boom, you got an audio player. Plus you can compile right from the menu bar. I do not still use BGT but I can see one's reason to. Although I think it is time to move on.
URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/531784/#p531784
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Why do people still use bgt?
Why do people still use bgt? Disclaimer. I am not trying to start another argument about bgt. If an argument does start, I will contact an admin and get this topic closed.So, I was looking through the games I have installed on my computer, and I realized that most of them are written in bgt. Now,, I have nothing against bgt, but I think it has ran it's corse. The only way you can obtain bgt is if you know someone who has the installer or if you get it through the blind help website. It is not even on the audio games website or the archive. Also, anyone who writes a game in bgt needs to put a disclaimer in the readme telling someone how to turn off windows defender, or make an exclusion so that windows doesn't delete the game. If you ask me, I think that is a lot of work just to be able to play a game. There are many other programming languages out there to choose from that have more features. And with a mainstream language you are not just limited to the documentation and asking around for help. If you are having a problem you can just use google. The chances are hi that someone else has had the exact same problem as you and can solve it. Like I said at the beginning of this post I am not trying to start an argument. I just want to know why so many people are still using bgt when it is unsupported and there are many other alternatives. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/531783/#p531783 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Why do people still use bgt?
Why do people still use bgt? Disclaimer. I am not trying to start another argument about bgt. If an argument does start, I will contact an admin and get this topic closed.So, I was looking through the games I have installed on my computer, and I realized that most of them are written in bgt. Now,, I have nothing against bgt, but I think it has ran it's corse. The only way you can obtain bgt is if you know someone who has the installer or if you get it through ***. It is not even on the audio games website or the archive. Also, anyone who writes a game in bgt needs to put a disclaimer in the readme telling someone how to turn off windows defender, or make an exclusion so that windows doesn't delete the game. If you ask me, I think that is a lot of work just to be able to play a game. There are many other programming languages out there to choose from that have more features. And with a mainstream language you are not just limited to the documentation and asking around for help. If you are having a problem you can just use google. The chances are hi that someone else has had the exact same problem as you and can solve it. Like I said at the beginning of this post I am not trying to start an argument. I just want to know why so many people are still using bgt when it is unsupported and there are many other alternatives. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/531783/#p531783 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
