Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Technical Question: Is the amount of jitter a function of the type of connection?
Wombat wrote: > > EXACTLY! There are people working hard with many posts on different > forums only to keep that message of the last sentense alive to make > sense out of their own products ;) I don't think it's just their products. It's a need to keep the whole *CLASS *of products alive! When there are classes of products where testimonial support is the only "evidence" of benefit/worth, potential loss of -faith -would not be tolerable and must be defended against. Although perhaps early days, I believe and hope that what we're witnessing are hints of a change in the audiophile hobby for the better. Archimago's Musings: (archimago.blogspot.com) A 'more objective' audiophile blog. Archimago's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2207 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=104340 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Technical Question: Is the amount of jitter a function of the type of connection?
Archimago wrote: > Although perhaps early days, I believe and hope that what we're > witnessing are hints of a change in the audiophile hobby for the better. We said that in the 80's too :) There will always be people who want to believe - be it homeopatic "medicine", tha dangers of vaccines, creationism, alien encounters - or "high end audio". Yes, a large group of reasonable people will accept scientific consensus in the end, but a hard core won't - and there will always be people trying to make money by feeding those beliefs - just look at any bookstore (if you can find one these days). "To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953 Julf's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=42050 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=104340 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Technical Question: Is the amount of jitter a function of the type of connection?
jkeny wrote: > Despite these two aspects, the plots of the 5V power out of the Regen > show it is far cleaner than the Vbus - maybe you are forgetting about > the voltage reg? > > As I said, the 5V does account for some proportion of the improvements & > as I also said, I'm interested in finding out how said USB signal > improvements may be audibly improving the analogue out signal. > I could give you my conjecture but I feel it is only going to start the > usual tit-for-tat argument so I'm happy for you to have your beliefs & I > mine Okay, maybe... > > Well, I guess you either think he is mistaken or lying. I doubt either & > trust his experience > Don't know the guy and have no reason to automatically think anyone's lying so will go with the "probably mistaken" option for now unless reasons show up otherwise. > > Funny, I've asked the same question to BE78, another believer in > measurements & he gave almost exactly the same answer - that being a > roundabout way of saying "no, I've never heard a difference that I > couldn't measure as being in the audible region on analogue out" > > Do you measure first & then listen, I wonder? > Nope, I generally listen first then measure. For example, the recent Light Harmonic Geek Out V2 isn't much to look at but I did listen 1st and posted positive initial impressions then did the measurements which ended up indeed being excellent. I've tried for years to listen for difference between WAV vs. FLAC, silver vs. copper interconnects, or different SPDIF cables... Never noticed a difference and was overall "happy" with generic cables and bitperfect software. Admittedly I felt insecure and perhaps even envious about this since all these other audiophiles seem to be experiencing something I wasn't. The strange thing was I thought my hearing was better than many because I could hear anomalies and helped a few fix problems (like one of them was listening to his music all along using MP3 transcoding!). This is all before even bothering to measure anything. > > Have you listened to one? > To the Regen, no, not yet. I will if/when a friend gets his. Like I said, I'm not too interested given the lack of rationale for this to make much if any difference... Been around too long since the days of trying to cryo cables and green pens for CDs to keep trying unlikely stuff based on pure testimony. Archimago's Musings: (archimago.blogspot.com) A 'more objective' audiophile blog. Archimago's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2207 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=104340 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Technical Question: Is the amount of jitter a function of the type of connection?
jkeny wrote: > Oh, I see - John Westlake is a very well known audio designer & E'ee > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_A._Westlake Even the Pope is fallible... > I had similar thoughts about USB cables - lots of people reporting > audible differences with different cables - the ones I tried, I couldn't > hear any diff (I didn't go to the really expensive ones) so I decided to > investigate further starting with a USB adapter i.e no cable & I could > hear a difference So what measurements did you do to see if the differences might be measurable? "To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953 Julf's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=42050 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=104340 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Technical Question: Is the amount of jitter a function of the type of connection?
Archimago wrote: > Hi John. > > Let's focus on the comments above. > > Firstly are we talking about '-improved eye-pattern-' > (http://www.pinkfishmedia.net/forum/showthread.php?p=2680112#post2680112)? > I see that Westlake has been 'critical of the Regen's stock SMPS' > (http://www.pinkfishmedia.net/forum/showpost.php?p=2689811=192) > as well as demonstration of high 8kHz noise current in the USB power > pins! So there doesn't appear to be any improvement in noise if one is > arguing about the 5V line with the stock device.Despite these two aspects, > the plots of the 5V power out of the Regen show it is far cleaner than the Vbus - maybe you are forgetting about the voltage reg? > 1. So, if we discount the SMPS as not likely to be improving sound > quality and therefore the majority of potential sonic improvement is > from the more precise eye-pattern, -by what mechanism do you think this > would happen-?As I said, the 5V does account for some proportion of the > improvements & as I also said, I'm interested in finding out how said USB signal improvements may be audibly improving the analogue out signal. I could give you my conjecture but I feel it is only going to start the usual tit-for-tat argument so I'm happy for you to have your beliefs & I mine > I'm happy to stick with the "bits are bits" argument and suggest that if > there is no data corruption from a computer's USB data line, then it is > unlikely there will be a sonic difference at all. Sure, maybe the > cleaner Regen data line out has less noise - but I would expect the 8kHz > tone to be measurably reduced not increased if this is part of the noise > reduction. And as for timing accuracy because of better eye-pattern > precision, well maybe if I run an old isochronous DAC this could help > with lower jitter... But asynchronous USB DACs are ubiquitous these days > so I don't see a problem.Sure > 2. John Westlake says differences won't be revealed in the analogue > measurements - *-WHY-*? Why is he not wrong? It is the analogue outputs > we're sending to the preamp/amp/speakers is it not? When I disconnect > the analogue outputs, do I not get silence? Unless there's some other > perhaps magical mechanism by which sonic information is getting to my > amp and speakers, I would very much like to know how this is achieved.Well, I > guess you either think he is mistaken or lying. I doubt either & trust his experience > 3. The general question... "I know you are a great believer in > measurements - have you ever heard an improvement in audio that you > could not measure?" That's a hard one to answer because I generally > don't question every sound I hear or analyze it to death! I post and > measurements for fun and hopefully achieve some understanding into my > hobby. I see contentious -beliefs -over the years stated as almost > foregone conclusions and thought it would be fun to explore these > "uncertainties" in a blog. I accept that there are things *very > difficult* to measure... For example, it's not possible for a typical > hobbyist to measure all the parameters of one's speaker system although > one can get a grasp of some of that. (I'm happy to read what Olive and > Toole have to say!) But there are things which I don't think are all > that difficult to understand - cables, DACs, bitperfect outputs > "sounding different", OS's sounding different come to mind and can be > explored. And in these cases, no, I don't think I've noticed anything > all that mind-blowing, deviates from scientific thinking of how the > engineering works, nor subjectively have I experienced an "improvement" > or "deterioration" that didn't correspond to measurable effects. If > anything, it's the opposite - I find things on measurement that I didn't > expect upon listening (eg. the JPlay issue with Kernel Streaming at > 24/48, excessive SMPS noise with the Tascam UH-7000).Funny, I've asked the > same question to BE78, another believer in measurements & he gave almost exactly the same answer - that being a roundabout way of saying "no, I've never heard a difference that I couldn't measure as being in the audible region on analogue out" Do you measure first & then listen, I wonder? > I would place the claims about the Regen (and Jitterbug) in the same > category of tweaks that are unlikely of benefit... And even if they are > of benefit in certain situations, would likely be because the DAC is > poorly engineered in the first place. I appreciate that some folks are > excited about the products and the testimonies are impressive on some > forums/threads, but after all these months, all these discussions, and > no clear concept presented for mechanism of action and in fact some > results questioning whether it's even beneficial, I really cannot get > excited at the low prospect of benefit in the form of improving fidelity > of one's USB DAC. I thought we discussed months ago Swenson was supposed > to present his objective results... Have you listened to
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Technical Question: Is the amount of jitter a function of the type of connection?
Archimago wrote: > Okay, maybe... > > Don't know the guy and have no reason to automatically think anyone's > lying so will go with the "probably mistaken" option for now unless > reasons show up otherwise.Oh, I see - John Westlake is a very well known > audio designer & E'ee https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_A._Westlake > Nope, I generally listen first then measure. For example, the recent > Light Harmonic Geek Out V2 isn't much to look at but I did listen 1st > and 'posted positive initial impressions' > (http://archimago.blogspot.com/2015/08/preview-look-at-light-harmonic-geek-out.html) > then did the 'measurements' > (http://archimago.blogspot.com/2015/09/measurements-light-harmonic-geek-out-v2.html) > which ended up indeed being excellent. I've tried for years to listen > for difference between WAV vs. FLAC, silver vs. copper interconnects, or > different SPDIF cables... Never noticed a difference and was overall > "happy" with generic cables and bitperfect software. Admittedly I felt > insecure and perhaps even envious about this since all these other > audiophiles seem to be experiencing something I wasn't. I'm glad I'm > feeling much more secure about the claims these days. The strange thing > was I thought my hearing was better than many because I could hear > anomalies and helped a few fix problems (like one of them was listening > to his music all along using MP3 transcoding!). This is all before I > started to measure anything.Right, so I'm even more quizzical why you have > never heard some audible difference that you couldn't measure? I had similar thoughts about USB cables - lots of people reporting audible differences with different cables - the ones I tried, I couldn't hear any diff (I didn't go to the really expensive ones) so I decided to investigate further starting with a USB adapter i.e no cable & I could hear a difference > To the Regen, no, not yet. I will if/when a friend gets his. Like I > said, I'm not too interested given the lack of rationale for this to > make much if any difference... Been around too long since the days of > trying to cryo cables and green pens for CDs to keep trying unlikely > stuff based on pure testimony.Sure jkeny's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=35192 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=104340 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Technical Question: Is the amount of jitter a function of the type of connection?
Julf wrote: > Even the Pope is fallible...Funny you equate a belief system to a > measurements system :) > So what measurements did you do to see if the differences might be > measurable?I didn't jkeny's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=35192 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=104340 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Technical Question: Is the amount of jitter a function of the type of connection?
jkeny wrote: > Funny you equate a belief system to a measurements system :) That is all in your interpretation. Replace "Even the Pope" with "Everyone" if that works better for you. > I didn't I thought the discussion was about hearing differences that can't be measured. So unless you actually measured, I fail to see the relevance. "To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953 Julf's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=42050 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=104340 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Technical Question: Is the amount of jitter a function of the type of connection?
Julf wrote: > That is all in your interpretation. Replace "Even the Pope" with > "Everyone" if that works better for you. > > > I thought the discussion was about hearing differences that can't be > measured. So unless you actually measured, I fail to see the relevance. I'm not interested in the trivial arguments jkeny's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=35192 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=104340 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Technical Question: Is the amount of jitter a function of the type of connection?
jkeny wrote: > I'm not interested in the trivial arguments Really? Actions speak louder than words... :) "To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953 Julf's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=42050 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=104340 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Technical Question: Is the amount of jitter a function of the type of connection?
This Regen mesurement thread nicely shows how parts of the busines work. I quote a post by BE718 at WBF: So what you are saying Bob is that we should ignore the very real measureable noise the regen created. We should ignore the very real and measureable RF noise spuing from the switch mode power supply. We should ignore that myself and Amir both found no real subjective improvements. We should ignore the fact that no-one, not even the designers have been able to measure any improvement. However because a few say they think it's better, it therefore must be better...OK :) EXACTLY! There are people working hard with many posts on different forums only to keep that message of the last sentense alive to make sense out of their own products ;) Transporter (modded) -> RG142 -> Avantgarde Acoustic based 500VA monoblocks -> Sommer SPK240 -> self-made speakers Wombat's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4113 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=104340 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Technical Question: Is the amount of jitter a function of the type of connection?
jkeny wrote: > Oh, I see - John Westlake is a very well known audio designer & E'ee > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_A._Westlake > That's nice. -But he hasn't explained how something can make an audible difference but not show up on the analogue outputs of a DAC...- > > Right, so I'm even more quizzical why you have never heard some audible > difference that you couldn't measure? > I had similar thoughts about USB cables - lots of people reporting > audible differences with different cables - the ones I tried, I couldn't > hear any diff (I didn't go to the really expensive ones) so I decided to > investigate further starting with a USB adapter i.e no cable & I could > hear a difference > Okay, so we both have reservations about audibility of USB cables. That's cool. I have been listening to and measured many DACs with many computers and associated USB ports/adaptors. Even tried 'USB-ethernet extender' (http://archimago.blogspot.ca/2013/12/measurements-usb-cable-extension-with.html) for a year and the 'Corning USB3 optical extender' (http://archimago.blogspot.ca/2015/05/measurements-corning-usb-3-optical.html) for the last 6 months or so... Other than reducing the 8kHz PHY noise interfering with my analogue pass-through in my pre-amp which I could demonstrate was suppressed with the Corning, the DAC outputs have been audibly and measurably fine. Curious, could you tell me which adapter you thought was very poor? And how much difference you figure the adapter makes in the final output from the same DAC (presumably a modern asynchronous USB device with known low jitter)? Suppose Westlake never explains why he thinks the difference is not measurable in the analogue domain, do you agree with this statement and how do you reconcile that with your own experience of what you hear? Archimago's Musings: (archimago.blogspot.com) A 'more objective' audiophile blog. Archimago's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2207 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=104340 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
