Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Is louder always perceived as better sounding?
I cannot see the point of releasing the likes of any Beatles recording in 24 bit. At least 8 of those bits are wasted on a 1970's recording as noise from the original tapes along with inherant non linear element of tapes. As for the volume issue, alot of it is down to the A weighting curves of the human ear. A loudness button on the older systems used to sound better (but not neccessarily accurate) because of this. Waldo Pepper's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=39029 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=98610 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Is louder always perceived as better sounding?
Zombie wrote: Every recording has its own natural playback level where it sounds best... Or you could just use loudness or tone controls. Julf's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=42050 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=98610 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Is louder always perceived as better sounding?
Julf wrote: Or you could just use loudness or tone controls. Yes the loudness contour is avery good idea . .. On relatively naturally recorded stuff when the instruments makes sense . ..And if people actually understood what it was , not thinking it was an instant disco button hence why we now have mega baass buttons on cr*p stereos :) Fletcher munson curve is a rather unknown by normal users , I've seen some manuals actually decribing the loudnes function córectly but thats rare . Mnyb's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4143 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=98610 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Is louder always perceived as better sounding?
SuperQ wrote: And this is where you're missing the actual point. You're comparing two different tracks of different content. Sure, they might be the same song, and even come from the same source multi-track, but the mastering is different. You seem to prefer the higher dynamic range versions. This is not what louder sounds better is talking about. If you took the same exact track and were presented it with a blind test at two volume levels you would prefer the louder one. If you always prefer the quieter one, even when done blind, I would say you are an abnormal case. Very likely a specific phobia where you have been trained to intentionally react negatively to loud sounds. I don't have issues listening to loud music, and I do like to crank it up. I am more concerned about listening to tracks where everything sounds at the same or similar level of loudness. In other words, there are many CDs where the music does not seem to 'breathe', and a flute that's playing in the background is as loud as the bass guitar etc. I can't stand that kind of production, and I'm thus finding that I prefer older CDs, the ones that were cut in the late '80s/early '90s. Often times modern remasters of those 20 year old CDs sound atrocious, very heavy handed and ham-fisted. So I'm always keeping my old copies around, because I prefer their quieter rendition. Many newly minted remasters sound super loud, and don't seem to have any dynamic range in them. That totally kills the music for me. heisenberg's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=59622 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=98610 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Is louder always perceived as better sounding?
heisenberg wrote: I am more concerned about listening to tracks where everything sounds at the same or similar level of loudness. In other words, there are many CDs where the music does not seem to 'breathe', and a flute that's playing in the background is as loud as the bass guitar etc. I can't stand that kind of production... This is NOT what was being discussed just a few posts back. Rather it was about taking the same recording and playing it back at two ever so slightly different playback levels. Most people prefer the one that is slightly louder even if they can't perceive the volume difference as such. mlsstl's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=9598 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=98610 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Is louder always perceived as better sounding?
It _is_ the reason, though, why all that dynamic compression is being done. It comparatively increases the volume of the track. It's less conclusive than the effect for identical tracks, though pippin's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=13777 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=98610 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Is louder always perceived as better sounding?
mlsstl wrote: This is NOT what was being discussed just a few posts back. Rather it was about taking the same recording and playing it back at two ever so slightly different playback levels. Most people prefer the one that is slightly louder even if they can't perceive the volume difference as such. I can agree with that, no problem. heisenberg's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=59622 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=98610 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Is louder always perceived as better sounding?
mlsstl wrote: This is NOT what was being discussed just a few posts back. Rather it was about taking the same recording and playing it back at two ever so slightly different playback levels. Most people prefer the one that is slightly louder even if they can't perceive the volume difference as such. heisenberg wrote: I can agree with that, no problem. This is an important factor to why it so hard to compare stuff , you seems very fascinated by the Beatles re releases for example was it not one 24bit version that was very similar to a 16bit version but 0,2dB louder . A more common problem is for example comparing CD players in a hifi shop or comparing a Squeezebox to a CD player . The simple fact that line level sources rarely have exactly the same output level have escaped many . Which makes just keeping the amplifier level identical insufficient to make a fair comparison ! And this is how most people do when listening in the hifi shop . I never been to a hifi shop where they try to fix this :) But then again many clerks in these shops are wannabe clowns idolising the hifi press and always tries to peddle a bunch of cables on top off your purchase , cables that has far higher margin than the product , oops . Mnyb's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4143 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=98610 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Is louder always perceived as better sounding?
A fairly pervasive urban myth has been percolating among the community, and this myth has to do with the unfounded assumption that louder always gets perceived as better sounding. In my particular case, and in a few other cases I know of, the exact opposite is true. When comparing side-by-side two versions of the same track, I tend to invariably favor the quieter sounding one. So where is this myth coming from? Why are we always assuming, in a knee-jerk fashion, that louder version is guaranteed to win? heisenberg's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=59622 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=98610 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Is louder always perceived as better sounding?
It's coming from ABX tests, there are scientific papers about this. It's not an urban myth, you are special. How did you find out? Did you do an ABX Test? This is especially about loudness differences which are too subtle to be consciously perceived. pippin's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=13777 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=98610 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Is louder always perceived as better sounding?
heisenberg wrote: A fairly pervasive urban myth has been percolating among the community, and this myth has to do with the unfounded assumption that louder always gets perceived as better sounding. In my particular case, and in a few other cases I know of, the exact opposite is true. When comparing side-by-side two versions of the same track, I tend to invariably favor the quieter sounding one. So where is this myth coming from? Why are we always assuming, in a knee-jerk fashion, that louder version is guaranteed to win? A quick search found this article: Perceived sound quality of reproductions with different frequency responses and sound levels (JAS 1990) AIf Gabrielsson. It states: Another important physical factor is the sound level. The available evidence indicates that an increase in sound level will usually increase the perceived fullness spaciousness and nearness as well as sharpness and brightness and decreasing sound level gives the opposite results. There also appeared to be some other articles going back to the 1970s. I didn't read the articles, but believe they involve relatively small differences in volume - about 1 dB. That is below the point where people clearly recognize one sound is louder - the perceived volume appears to be the same for both. And, of course, the sources would otherwise be identical in frequency range, dynamics and the like. Under these circumstances, most people report they find the louder version as clearer and more dynamic, but not louder. One also needs to keep in mind that studies of this nature also deal in average results, but it is certainly possible that individual listeners may respond differently. Finally, your comment is a bit confusing, as you refer to comparing side-by-side two versions of the same track. I couldn't quite tell if you were talking about the same source where you had introduced a volume difference or were talking about two separate CDs where one was louder due to remastering. In the latter case, all bets are off in my book since it is quite likely that dynamics, equalization and other factors as well as the volume have been manipulated. mlsstl's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=9598 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=98610 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Is louder always perceived as better sounding?
There is enough bad music out there that can't be played back silent enough to please. You even may argue this music sounds best when not played back at all. Wombat's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4113 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=98610 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Is louder always perceived as better sounding?
mlsstl wrote: Finally, your comment is a bit confusing, as you refer to comparing side-by-side two versions of the same track. I couldn't quite tell if you were talking about the same source where you had introduced a volume difference or were talking about two separate CDs where one was louder due to remastering. In the latter case, all bets are off in my book since it is quite likely that dynamics, equalization and other factors as well as the volume have been manipulated. Well quite. On Spotify, if there's a selection of recordings, I pick the quietest but only because I know that is likely to be the least dynamically compressed. In this context, loudness is being associated to dynamic compression (based on likelihoods) so it's bad. If you are comparing two identical recordings, just playing one at higher volume, then the higher volume one will tend to sound better (this has been shown in DBX tests; also there is the factor of equal-loudness contours). In this context, loudness means just volume level, and more of it sounds good as long as your equipment has headroom to spare. Darren darrenyeats's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10799 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=98610 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Is louder always perceived as better sounding?
heisenberg wrote: When comparing side-by-side two versions of the same track, I tend to invariably favor the quieter sounding one. And this is where you're missing the actual point. You're comparing two different tracks of different content. Sure, they might be the same song, and even come from the same source multi-track, but the mastering is different. You seem to prefer the higher dynamic range versions. This is not what louder sounds better is talking about. If you took the same exact track and were presented it with a blind test at two volume levels you would prefer the louder one. If you always prefer the quieter one, even when done blind, I would say you are an abnormal case. Very likely a specific phobia where you have been trained to intentionally react negatively to loud sounds. SuperQ's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2139 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=98610 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Is louder always perceived as better sounding?
Every recording has its own natural playback level where it sounds best... Zombie's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=25009 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=98610 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Is louder always perceived as better sounding?
I think Wombat hit the nail on the head!! w3wilkes's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=22973 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=98610 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
