Re: [AZORES-Genealogy] related in the second degree
You're partly right. I believe that the proper term you're looking for is a "dispensation" which is requested by the party (s) involved; it usually takes the form of an "indulgence" resulting from performing a certain "penance" suggested by the priest in confession, and, certain contributions for "processing" - The procedure continues to date :) -- For options, such as changing to List, Digest, Abridged, or No Mail (vacation) mode, log into your Google account and visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/Azores. Click in the blue area on the right that says "Join this group" and it will take you to "Edit my membership." --- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Azores Genealogy" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to azores+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to azores@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/azores?hl=en.
Re: [AZORES-Genealogy] related in the second degree
Something in the back of my head says that there were fees, but I can't for the life of me remember where I learned that. Or if I'm applying it to the wrong instance. Cheri Mello Listowner, Azores-Gen Researching: Vila Franca, Ponta Garca, Ribeira Quente, Ribeira das Tainhas, Achada -- For options, such as changing to List, Digest, Abridged, or No Mail (vacation) mode, log into your Google account and visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/Azores. Click in the blue area on the right that says "Join this group" and it will take you to "Edit my membership." --- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Azores Genealogy" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to azores+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to azores@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/azores?hl=en.
Re: [AZORES-Genealogy] related in the second degree
I'm sure I should have said "pay for an indulgence" or some such thing. I thought it was pretty well known that these "fees" were common. Close to twenty years ago I took a few Portuguese genealogy classes and these very "fees" were discussed along with the amount paid (no dollar amount but relative amount) according to the closeness of the relationship. I got the impression at the time that the amount of money not only depended on the relationship but on the whim of the priest - a few "charged" for 2nd cousin marriages, others didn't for instance. David On Thursday, May 30, 2013 2:46:42 PM UTC-7, Richard Francis Pimentel wrote: > *I have never heard of paying for a dispensation and do not believe a set > price was made by Rome. The term indulgence is not the right term. An > indulgence refers to giving something of value to the church in return for > forgiveness (a ticket to heaven). These forms of corruption lead to the > reformation and no longer exist.* > > * * > > *Perhaps some of our other researchers could chime in on this.* > > * * > > *Rick* > > * * > > *Richard Francis Pimentel* > > *Spring, TX* > > *Formerly of Epping, New Hampshire * > > * * > > *Researching, Riberia Grande, Riberinha, Achada Grande, Bretanha, and > Ponta Delgada, Sao Miguel, Acores* > > * * > > *From:* azo...@googlegroups.com [mailto: > azo...@googlegroups.com ] *On Behalf Of *David Perry > *Sent:* Thursday, May 30, 2013 8:42 AM > *To:* azo...@googlegroups.com > *Subject:* Re: [AZORES-Genealogy] related in the second degree > > > > I assume these folks had to pay an indulgence (is that the correct word?) > to the local priest. Does anyone know if the amount paid was more for a > grandfather/granddaughter marriage than for a 1st cousin/1st cousin > marriage? Did the amount paid depend on the whim of the local priest or > were the amounts set by Rome or some higher official? The reason I ask is > that it seems to be whatever the local priest wants since my great > grandfather had to pay to marry his first wife's cousin - not his cousin > mind you but the cousin of his first wife. He fought with the priest for > weeks about it but finally gave in and paid it. The family joke for all > these years is that the priest needed a new set of golf clubs. Great > grandpa never set foot in a church again. > > David > > > On Sunday, May 26, 2013 10:36:09 PM UTC-7, Doug Holmes wrote: > > I have 35 couples out of about 91,000 total couples in my genealogy > program who are related in the 1st and 2nd degree of consanguinity (by > blood) and so the parents for one are the grandparents for the other. Most > of the time the man is the elder, but a few times the women was the elder > of the two. > > > > The majority of the time these couples had children - maybe 90% of the > time. > > > > I am certain there are many more than the 35 above couples, but that's > only what I have transferred from my database to my genealogy program so > far. > > > > So this is a small fraction of the couples who married, but still not so > uncommon. And this doesn't include any 2nd degree cousins, which are far > more common. > > > > The most interesting finding to me is that so many of them had kids. > > In many cases, their ages were within the normal 2-5 years apart, but some > were 20 or more years apart. > > > > As usual, most of them are from Pico and Terceira, since that's where I > primarily work. > > > > Doug da Rocha Holmes > Sacramento, California > Pico & Terceira Genealogist > 916-550-1618 > > www.dholmes.com > > > > Original Message > Subject: RE: [AZORES-Genealogy] related in the second degree > From: > Date: Fri, May 24, 2013 8:51 am > To: azo...@googlegroups.com > > Yukon, > > > > I have seen it many, many times to have an uncle/niece marriage. > > They call that related in the 1st and 2nd degree of consanguinity. > > > > However, often it's when they are too old to have children. I'll have to > check on that. > > > > I have never seen a grandfather marrying a granddaughter, like Shirl. > > > > I recently read a book on the history of Ireland, specifically the Dublin > area, and in about 1200 AD, or so, it was considered a terrible thing to > have a cousin marrying a cousin, like the Irish were allowing. > > This was the opinion of all Christendom outside of Ireland, and was one of > the reforms imposed by the English king trying to win favor with the Pope > in Rome. The b
RE: [AZORES-Genealogy] related in the second degree
I am practically sure they must have paid fees.And I think the fee was based on percentage of income. Maybe not exactly a percentage, but a wealthy family surely paid more than a poor one.You'll notice the margin comments that say they were too poor to pay for the stamp.And similarly, I am practically certain when my ancestor brought his 3 girls to Angra and said their mother was unknown, he must have paid a small fortune for the priest and bishop to allow this and look the other way.I'm glad to hear you have personal knowledge of the fee your ancestor paid. I hope more will enlighten us about this happening to their ancestors. Maybe it was mentioned in some history book.Good old corruption in all its many facets...Doug da Rocha HolmesSacramento, CaliforniaPico & Terceira Genealogist916-550-1618www.dholmes.com Original Message Subject: Re: [AZORES-Genealogy] related in the second degree From: David Perry <djperr...@sbcglobal.net> Date: Thu, May 30, 2013 6:42 am To: azores@googlegroups.com I assume these folks had to pay an indulgence (is that the correct word?) to the local priest. Does anyone know if the amount paid was more for a grandfather/granddaughter marriage than for a 1st cousin/1st cousin marriage? Did the amount paid depend on the whim of the local priest or were the amounts set by Rome or some higher official? The reason I ask is that it seems to be whatever the local priest wants since my great grandfather had to pay to marry his first wife's cousin - not his cousin mind you but the cousin of his first wife. He fought with the priest for weeks about it but finally gave in and paid it. The family joke for all these years is that the priest needed a new set of golf clubs. Great grandpa never set foot in a church again. DavidOn Sunday, May 26, 2013 10:36:09 PM UTC-7, Doug Holmes wrote:I have 35 couples out of about 91,000 total couples in my genealogy program who are related in the 1st and 2nd degree of consanguinity (by blood) and so the parents for one are the grandparents for the other. Most of the time the man is the elder, but a few times the women was the elder of the two.The majority of the time these couples had children - maybe 90% of the time.I am certain there are many more than the 35 above couples, but that's only what I have transferred from my database to my genealogy program so far.So this is a small fraction of the couples who married, but still not so uncommon. And this doesn't include any 2nd degree cousins, which are far more common.The most interesting finding to me is that so many of them had kids.In many cases, their ages were within the normal 2-5 years apart, but some were 20 or more years apart.As usual, most of them are from Pico and Terceira, since that's where I primarily work.Doug da Rocha HolmesSacramento, CaliforniaPico & Terceira Genealogist916-550-1618www.dholmes.com -- For options, such as changing to List, Digest, Abridged, or No Mail (vacation) mode, log into your Google account and visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/Azores. Click in the blue area on the right that says "Join this group" and it will take you to "Edit my membership." --- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Azores Genealogy" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to azores+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to azores@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/azores?hl=en.
RE: [AZORES-Genealogy] related in the second degree
I have never heard of paying for a dispensation and do not believe a set price was made by Rome. The term indulgence is not the right term. An indulgence refers to giving something of value to the church in return for forgiveness (a ticket to heaven). These forms of corruption lead to the reformation and no longer exist. Perhaps some of our other researchers could chime in on this. Rick Richard Francis Pimentel Spring, TX Formerly of Epping, New Hampshire Researching, Riberia Grande, Riberinha, Achada Grande, Bretanha, and Ponta Delgada, Sao Miguel, Acores From: azores@googlegroups.com [mailto:azores@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of David Perry Sent: Thursday, May 30, 2013 8:42 AM To: azores@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: [AZORES-Genealogy] related in the second degree I assume these folks had to pay an indulgence (is that the correct word?) to the local priest. Does anyone know if the amount paid was more for a grandfather/granddaughter marriage than for a 1st cousin/1st cousin marriage? Did the amount paid depend on the whim of the local priest or were the amounts set by Rome or some higher official? The reason I ask is that it seems to be whatever the local priest wants since my great grandfather had to pay to marry his first wife's cousin - not his cousin mind you but the cousin of his first wife. He fought with the priest for weeks about it but finally gave in and paid it. The family joke for all these years is that the priest needed a new set of golf clubs. Great grandpa never set foot in a church again. David On Sunday, May 26, 2013 10:36:09 PM UTC-7, Doug Holmes wrote: I have 35 couples out of about 91,000 total couples in my genealogy program who are related in the 1st and 2nd degree of consanguinity (by blood) and so the parents for one are the grandparents for the other. Most of the time the man is the elder, but a few times the women was the elder of the two. The majority of the time these couples had children - maybe 90% of the time. I am certain there are many more than the 35 above couples, but that's only what I have transferred from my database to my genealogy program so far. So this is a small fraction of the couples who married, but still not so uncommon. And this doesn't include any 2nd degree cousins, which are far more common. The most interesting finding to me is that so many of them had kids. In many cases, their ages were within the normal 2-5 years apart, but some were 20 or more years apart. As usual, most of them are from Pico and Terceira, since that's where I primarily work. Doug da Rocha Holmes Sacramento, California Pico & Terceira Genealogist 916-550-1618 www.dholmes.com Original Message ---- Subject: RE: [AZORES-Genealogy] related in the second degree From: > Date: Fri, May 24, 2013 8:51 am To: azo...@googlegroups.com Yukon, I have seen it many, many times to have an uncle/niece marriage. They call that related in the 1st and 2nd degree of consanguinity. However, often it's when they are too old to have children. I'll have to check on that. I have never seen a grandfather marrying a granddaughter, like Shirl. I recently read a book on the history of Ireland, specifically the Dublin area, and in about 1200 AD, or so, it was considered a terrible thing to have a cousin marrying a cousin, like the Irish were allowing. This was the opinion of all Christendom outside of Ireland, and was one of the reforms imposed by the English king trying to win favor with the Pope in Rome. The book, if anyone is interested, "The Princes of Ireland" - a great historical fiction. Doug da Rocha Holmes Sacramento, California Pico & Terceira Genealogist 916-550-1618 www.dholmes.com ---- Original Message -------- Subject: Re: [AZORES-Genealogy] related in the second degree From: yukon...@aol.com Date: Fri, May 24, 2013 6:42 am To: azo...@googlegroups.com I keep reading about cousins marring, but are there any recorded uncle and niece marriage. I know this happened, at least in my family. I could not believe it when I first found this. My great grandfather, gave his daughter to his brother when she was 18. I thought it was odd that her maiden name was not on license. While we may not all be super intelligent we got by. As far as I know there were no great deformities or retardation from this and the line lives into their late 80's to 90's, I am the only one with any defect and that is in my heart. So to say I was amazed to learn this news I was not totally shocked, just really got me interested in my Azorean roots. In a message dated 5/22/2013 3:50:51 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time, pi...@dholmes.com writes: First cousins who married is nothing surprising for the Azores. My grandmother's parents were first cousins from Sao Roque do Pico. And like Nancy, I have numerous ancestors who married cousins, both from
Re: [AZORES-Genealogy] related in the second degree
I assume these folks had to pay an indulgence (is that the correct word?) to the local priest. Does anyone know if the amount paid was more for a grandfather/granddaughter marriage than for a 1st cousin/1st cousin marriage? Did the amount paid depend on the whim of the local priest or were the amounts set by Rome or some higher official? The reason I ask is that it seems to be whatever the local priest wants since my great grandfather had to pay to marry his first wife's cousin - not his cousin mind you but the cousin of his first wife. He fought with the priest for weeks about it but finally gave in and paid it. The family joke for all these years is that the priest needed a new set of golf clubs. Great grandpa never set foot in a church again. David On Sunday, May 26, 2013 10:36:09 PM UTC-7, Doug Holmes wrote: > I have 35 couples out of about 91,000 total couples in my genealogy > program who are related in the 1st and 2nd degree of consanguinity (by > blood) and so the parents for one are the grandparents for the other. Most > of the time the man is the elder, but a few times the women was the elder > of the two. > > The majority of the time these couples had children - maybe 90% of the > time. > > I am certain there are many more than the 35 above couples, but that's > only what I have transferred from my database to my genealogy program so > far. > > So this is a small fraction of the couples who married, but still not so > uncommon. And this doesn't include any 2nd degree cousins, which are far > more common. > > The most interesting finding to me is that so many of them had kids. > In many cases, their ages were within the normal 2-5 years apart, but some > were 20 or more years apart. > > As usual, most of them are from Pico and Terceira, since that's where I > primarily work. > > Doug da Rocha Holmes > Sacramento, California > Pico & Terceira Genealogist > 916-550-1618 > www.dholmes.com > > > Original Message > Subject: RE: [AZORES-Genealogy] related in the second degree > From: > > Date: Fri, May 24, 2013 8:51 am > To: azo...@googlegroups.com > > Yukon, > > I have seen it many, many times to have an uncle/niece marriage. > They call that related in the 1st and 2nd degree of consanguinity. > > However, often it's when they are too old to have children. I'll have to > check on that. > > I have never seen a grandfather marrying a granddaughter, like Shirl. > > I recently read a book on the history of Ireland, specifically the Dublin > area, and in about 1200 AD, or so, it was considered a terrible thing to > have a cousin marrying a cousin, like the Irish were allowing. > This was the opinion of all Christendom outside of Ireland, and was one of > the reforms imposed by the English king trying to win favor with the Pope > in Rome. The book, if anyone is interested, "The Princes of Ireland" - a > great historical fiction. > > Doug da Rocha Holmes > Sacramento, California > Pico & Terceira Genealogist > 916-550-1618 > www.dholmes.com > > > Original Message > Subject: Re: [AZORES-Genealogy] related in the second degree > From: yukon...@aol.com > Date: Fri, May 24, 2013 6:42 am > To: azo...@googlegroups.com > > I keep reading about cousins marring, but are there any recorded uncle > and niece marriage. I know this happened, at least in my family. I could > not believe it when I first found this. My great grandfather, gave his > daughter to his brother when she was 18. I thought it was odd that her > maiden name was not on license. While we may not all be super intelligent > we got by. As far as I know there were no great deformities or retardation > from this and the line lives into their late 80's to 90's, I am the only > one with any defect and that is in my heart. So to say I was amazed to > learn this news I was not totally shocked, just really got me interested in > my Azorean roots. > > In a message dated 5/22/2013 3:50:51 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time, > pi...@dholmes.com writes: > > First cousins who married is nothing surprising for the Azores. My > grandmother's parents were first cousins from Sao Roque do Pico. > And like Nancy, I have numerous ancestors who married cousins, both from > Pico and not so many, but also in Terceira. > > What surprised me was seeing these double first cousins, as Cheri tells us > they are called. I might have simply forgotten, but I am not sure I ever > saw it before. > > In fact, I look very carefully at every marriage record and hope they were > cousins. There are numerous times I have found older ancestors of my own, > n
RE: [AZORES-Genealogy] related in the second degree
I have 35 couples out of about 91,000 total couples in my genealogy program who are related in the 1st and 2nd degree of consanguinity (by blood) and so the parents for one are the grandparents for the other. Most of the time the man is the elder, but a few times the women was the elder of the two.The majority of the time these couples had children - maybe 90% of the time.I am certain there are many more than the 35 above couples, but that's only what I have transferred from my database to my genealogy program so far.So this is a small fraction of the couples who married, but still not so uncommon. And this doesn't include any 2nd degree cousins, which are far more common.The most interesting finding to me is that so many of them had kids.In many cases, their ages were within the normal 2-5 years apart, but some were 20 or more years apart.As usual, most of them are from Pico and Terceira, since that's where I primarily work.Doug da Rocha HolmesSacramento, CaliforniaPico & Terceira Genealogist916-550-1618www.dholmes.com Original Message Subject: RE: [AZORES-Genealogy] related in the second degree From: <p...@dholmes.com> Date: Fri, May 24, 2013 8:51 am To: azores@googlegroups.com Yukon,I have seen it many, many times to have an uncle/niece marriage.They call that related in the 1st and 2nd degree of consanguinity.However, often it's when they are too old to have children. I'll have to check on that.I have never seen a grandfather marrying a granddaughter, like Shirl.I recently read a book on the history of Ireland, specifically the Dublin area, and in about 1200 AD, or so, it was considered a terrible thing to have a cousin marrying a cousin, like the Irish were allowing.This was the opinion of all Christendom outside of Ireland, and was one of the reforms imposed by the English king trying to win favor with the Pope in Rome. The book, if anyone is interested, "The Princes of Ireland" - a great historical fiction.Doug da Rocha HolmesSacramento, CaliforniaPico & Terceira Genealogist916-550-1618www.dholmes.com ---- Original Message -------- Subject: Re: [AZORES-Genealogy] related in the second degree From: yukonang...@aol.com Date: Fri, May 24, 2013 6:42 am To: azores@googlegroups.com I keep reading about cousins marring, but are there any recorded uncle and niece marriage. I know this happened, at least in my family. I could not believe it when I first found this. My great grandfather, gave his daughter to his brother when she was 18. I thought it was odd that her maiden name was not on license. While we may not all be super intelligent we got by. As far as I know there were no great deformities or retardation from this and the line lives into their late 80's to 90's, I am the only one with any defect and that is in my heart. So to say I was amazed to learn this news I was not totally shocked, just really got me interested in my Azorean roots. In a message dated 5/22/2013 3:50:51 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time, p...@dholmes.com writes: First cousins who married is nothing surprising for the Azores. My grandmother's parents were first cousins from Sao Roque do Pico. And like Nancy, I have numerous ancestors who married cousins, both from Pico and not so many, but also in Terceira. What surprised me was seeing these double first cousins, as Cheri tells us they are called. I might have simply forgotten, but I am not sure I ever saw it before. In fact, I look very carefully at every marriage record and hope they were cousins. There are numerous times I have found older ancestors of my own, not to mention for others, based on this fact. I believe I mentioned this many years ago on the old Azores List on Rootsweb, but first cousins having children can have no visible bad results in children. My grandmother, daughter of first cousins, lived to 101. Her brother lived into his 90s. Another brother was in his 80s, I believe. Doug da Rocha HolmesSacramento, CaliforniaPico & Terceira Genealogist916-550-1618 www.dholmes.com Original Message Subject: RE: [AZORES-Genealogy] related in the second degreeFrom: nancy jean baptiste <fishsongf...@hotmail.com>Date: Wed, May 22, 2013 1:55 pmTo: azores group <azores@googlegroups.com> My Furtado Cardoso great grandparents were first cousins on Picotheir line is FILLED with cousin marriagesover and over through the generations. While there are no obvious problems from this I suspect that things like diabetes and heart disease are increased in these close lines. their daughter married a man whose parents were from Sao Jorge and Santa Mariatheir son, my father married my mom whose complete line is from Sao Jorge..I've found many surnames between my mom's Sao Jorge line and my dad's fathers Sao Jorge line..cousins? Maybe distant onesI don't know. I read that Flores has the highest incidence of Machado Joseph d
Re: [AZORES-Genealogy] related in the second degree
Rodrigo Rodrigues has several examples of marriages between aunts/nephews and uncles/nieces. Most of these were probably dynastic marriages, e.g., to consolidate fortunes/estates or to keep from dividing an estate. I have never seen a marriage in the first degree the marriage of a brother to his sister is prohibited by civil and cannon law. John Miranda Raposo From: Cheri Mello To: Azores Genealogy Sent: Friday, May 24, 2013 1:46 PM Subject: Re: [AZORES-Genealogy] related in the second degree I know Eloise Cadinha has found an uncle/niece or aunt/nephew marriage. I can't remember which. 1st degree of consanguinity: Uncle/niece or aunt/nephew marriage. Rare. 2nd degree of consanguinity: 1st cousins marrying. 3rd degree of consanguinity: 2nd cousins marrying. 4th degree of consanguinity: 3rd cousins marrying. After that, they did not keep track. Today, the Catholic Church only keeps track of 1st and 2nd degrees of consanguinity. I was told this by a Catholic priest probably 10 years ago. Affinity: Related by marriage, like in-laws. An example might be that the wife dies in childbirth, so the man marries his sister-in-law. I have one where he married his mother-in-law. They had no children. Joao Ventura, the archivist in Terceira, explained to me that it was improper back in time to have a woman in the house taking care of the kids, even if it was grandma! So he married her to get the children taken care of (his wife died in childbirth). Cheri Mello Listowner, Azores-Gen Researching: Vila Franca, Ponta Garca, Ribeira Quente, Ribeira das Tainhas, Achada -- For options, such as changing to List, Digest, Abridged, or No Mail (vacation) mode, log into your Google account and visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/Azores. Click in the blue area on the right that says "Join this group" and it will take you to "Edit my membership." --- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Azores Genealogy" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to azores+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to azores@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/azores?hl=en. -- For options, such as changing to List, Digest, Abridged, or No Mail (vacation) mode, log into your Google account and visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/Azores. Click in the blue area on the right that says "Join this group" and it will take you to "Edit my membership." --- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Azores Genealogy" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to azores+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to azores@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/azores?hl=en.
Re: [AZORES-Genealogy] related in the second degree
*I have a nephew-aunt marriage in my family tree. One of my great great grand fathers married an aunt about 20 years older than he was (for inheritance reasons I would bet). I would really like to know the story behind that. After he died he married my great great grandmother. * *John Vasconcelos .* On Fri, May 24, 2013 at 6:42 AM, wrote: > ** > I keep reading about cousins marring, but are there any recorded uncle and > niece marriage. I know this happened, at least in my family. I could not > believe it when I first found this. My great grandfather, gave his daughter > to his brother when she was 18. I thought it was odd that her maiden name > was not on license. While we may not all be super intelligent we got by. As > far as I know there were no great deformities or retardation from this and > the line lives into their late 80's to 90's, I am the only one with any > defect and that is in my heart. So to say I was amazed to learn this news I > was not totally shocked, just really got me interested in my Azorean roots. > > In a message dated 5/22/2013 3:50:51 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time, > p...@dholmes.com writes: > > First cousins who married is nothing surprising for the Azores. My > grandmother's parents were first cousins from Sao Roque do Pico. > And like Nancy, I have numerous ancestors who married cousins, both from > Pico and not so many, but also in Terceira. > > What surprised me was seeing these double first cousins, as Cheri tells us > they are called. I might have simply forgotten, but I am not sure I ever > saw it before. > > In fact, I look very carefully at every marriage record and hope they were > cousins. There are numerous times I have found older ancestors of my own, > not to mention for others, based on this fact. > > I believe I mentioned this many years ago on the old Azores List on > Rootsweb, but first cousins having children can have no visible bad results > in children. > My grandmother, daughter of first cousins, lived to 101. Her brother lived > into his 90s. Another brother was in his 80s, I believe. > > Doug da Rocha Holmes > Sacramento, California > Pico & Terceira Genealogist > 916-550-1618 > www.dholmes.com > > > Original Message > Subject: RE: [AZORES-Genealogy] related in the second degree > From: nancy jean baptiste > Date: Wed, May 22, 2013 1:55 pm > To: azores group > > My Furtado Cardoso great grandparents were first cousins on Picotheir > line is FILLED with cousin marriagesover and over through the > generations. While there are no obvious problems from this I suspect that > things like diabetes and heart disease are increased in these close lines. > their daughter married a man whose parents were from Sao Jorge and Santa > Mariatheir son, my father married my mom whose complete line is from > Sao Jorge..I've found many surnames between my mom's Sao Jorge line and > my dad's fathers Sao Jorge line..cousins? Maybe distant onesI don't > know. > > I read that Flores has the highest incidence of Machado Joseph disease > found among the Azorean people and it is attributed to the frequency of > inbreeding. Sometimes things are oksometimes not. > > Nancy Jean > > -- > Date: Wed, 22 May 2013 13:42:28 -0700 > Subject: Re: [AZORES-Genealogy] related in the second degree > From: gfsjo...@gmail.com > To: azores@googlegroups.com > > Doug, > Cousin Marriages are common on Flores because it is such a small Island. I > have cousin marriages on both sides of my family tree. If the genes are > good, superior decendants can be produced. I have some first cousins on my > father's side that married. One of their children married the child of > another first cousin of mine making them second cousins who married. This > couple had 4 children all of whom are college graduates. One of these four > children is now a professor at Boston University. > John Vasconcelos > > > On Tue, May 21, 2013 at 10:31 PM, wrote: > > I ran across an old document I had translated about 15 years ago and > took another look. > My first notation was that this couple was related in the second degree. I > never noted whether it was by consanguinity or affinity. > But usually if I didn't note it, it was by consanguinity. > > Well, my second look proved important because I had missed an important > word "duplicado" (duplicate). > > In case you never knew, this means not only they were first cousins, but > first cousins in two different ways. > If you think about it, that means they each shared all four of their > grandparents. They had no ancestors other than what they shared. > Talk about i
RE: [AZORES-Genealogy] related in the second degree
Cheri,1st degree of consanguinity: Uncle/niece or aunt/nephew marriage. Rare.This is called 1st and 2nd degree.First degree would never be allowed, because that's siblings marrying each other - except in Eastern Kentucky... :-)I have one where he married his mother-in-law. They had no children. Joao Ventura, the archivist in Terceira, explained to me that it was improper back in time to have a woman in the house taking care of the kids, even if it was grandma! So he married her to get the children taken care of (his wife died in childbirth).I suppose this must be clarified, because it was quite normal to have a servant in the house and just exactly what that servant did could only be known by observation - impossible to know now.Doug da Rocha HolmesSacramento, CaliforniaPico & Terceira Genealogist916-550-1618www.dholmes.com -- For options, such as changing to List, Digest, Abridged, or No Mail (vacation) mode, log into your Google account and visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/Azores. Click in the blue area on the right that says "Join this group" and it will take you to "Edit my membership." --- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Azores Genealogy" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to azores+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to azores@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/azores?hl=en.
Re: [AZORES-Genealogy] related in the second degree
I know Eloise Cadinha has found an uncle/niece or aunt/nephew marriage. I can't remember which. 1st degree of consanguinity: Uncle/niece or aunt/nephew marriage. Rare. 2nd degree of consanguinity: 1st cousins marrying. 3rd degree of consanguinity: 2nd cousins marrying. 4th degree of consanguinity: 3rd cousins marrying. After that, they did not keep track. Today, the Catholic Church only keeps track of 1st and 2nd degrees of consanguinity. I was told this by a Catholic priest probably 10 years ago. Affinity: Related by marriage, like in-laws. An example might be that the wife dies in childbirth, so the man marries his sister-in-law. I have one where he married his mother-in-law. They had no children. Joao Ventura, the archivist in Terceira, explained to me that it was improper back in time to have a woman in the house taking care of the kids, even if it was grandma! So he married her to get the children taken care of (his wife died in childbirth). Cheri Mello Listowner, Azores-Gen Researching: Vila Franca, Ponta Garca, Ribeira Quente, Ribeira das Tainhas, Achada -- For options, such as changing to List, Digest, Abridged, or No Mail (vacation) mode, log into your Google account and visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/Azores. Click in the blue area on the right that says "Join this group" and it will take you to "Edit my membership." --- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Azores Genealogy" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to azores+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to azores@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/azores?hl=en.
RE: [AZORES-Genealogy] related in the second degree
Yukon,I have seen it many, many times to have an uncle/niece marriage.They call that related in the 1st and 2nd degree of consanguinity.However, often it's when they are too old to have children. I'll have to check on that.I have never seen a grandfather marrying a granddaughter, like Shirl.I recently read a book on the history of Ireland, specifically the Dublin area, and in about 1200 AD, or so, it was considered a terrible thing to have a cousin marrying a cousin, like the Irish were allowing.This was the opinion of all Christendom outside of Ireland, and was one of the reforms imposed by the English king trying to win favor with the Pope in Rome. The book, if anyone is interested, "The Princes of Ireland" - a great historical fiction.Doug da Rocha HolmesSacramento, CaliforniaPico & Terceira Genealogist916-550-1618www.dholmes.com Original Message ---- Subject: Re: [AZORES-Genealogy] related in the second degree From: yukonang...@aol.com Date: Fri, May 24, 2013 6:42 am To: azores@googlegroups.com I keep reading about cousins marring, but are there any recorded uncle and niece marriage. I know this happened, at least in my family. I could not believe it when I first found this. My great grandfather, gave his daughter to his brother when she was 18. I thought it was odd that her maiden name was not on license. While we may not all be super intelligent we got by. As far as I know there were no great deformities or retardation from this and the line lives into their late 80's to 90's, I am the only one with any defect and that is in my heart. So to say I was amazed to learn this news I was not totally shocked, just really got me interested in my Azorean roots. In a message dated 5/22/2013 3:50:51 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time, p...@dholmes.com writes: First cousins who married is nothing surprising for the Azores. My grandmother's parents were first cousins from Sao Roque do Pico. And like Nancy, I have numerous ancestors who married cousins, both from Pico and not so many, but also in Terceira. What surprised me was seeing these double first cousins, as Cheri tells us they are called. I might have simply forgotten, but I am not sure I ever saw it before. In fact, I look very carefully at every marriage record and hope they were cousins. There are numerous times I have found older ancestors of my own, not to mention for others, based on this fact. I believe I mentioned this many years ago on the old Azores List on Rootsweb, but first cousins having children can have no visible bad results in children. My grandmother, daughter of first cousins, lived to 101. Her brother lived into his 90s. Another brother was in his 80s, I believe. Doug da Rocha HolmesSacramento, CaliforniaPico & Terceira Genealogist916-550-1618 www.dholmes.com Original Message Subject: RE: [AZORES-Genealogy] related in the second degreeFrom: nancy jean baptiste <fishsongf...@hotmail.com>Date: Wed, May 22, 2013 1:55 pmTo: azores group <azores@googlegroups.com> My Furtado Cardoso great grandparents were first cousins on Picotheir line is FILLED with cousin marriagesover and over through the generations. While there are no obvious problems from this I suspect that things like diabetes and heart disease are increased in these close lines. their daughter married a man whose parents were from Sao Jorge and Santa Mariatheir son, my father married my mom whose complete line is from Sao Jorge..I've found many surnames between my mom's Sao Jorge line and my dad's fathers Sao Jorge line..cousins? Maybe distant onesI don't know. I read that Flores has the highest incidence of Machado Joseph disease found among the Azorean people and it is attributed to the frequency of inbreeding. Sometimes things are oksometimes not. Nancy Jean Date: Wed, 22 May 2013 13:42:28 -0700Subject: Re: [AZORES-Genealogy] related in the second degreeFrom: gfsjo...@gmail.comTo: azores@googlegroups.com Doug,Cousin Marriages are common on Flores because it is such a small Island. I have cousin marriages on both sides of my family tree. If the genes are good, superior decendants can be produced. I have some first cousins on my father's side that married. One of their children married the child of another first cousin of mine making them second cousins who married. This couple had 4 children all of whom are college graduates. One of these four children is now a professor at Boston University.John Vasconcelos On Tue, May 21, 2013 at 10:31 PM, <p...@dholmes.com> wrote: I ran across an old document I had translated about 15 years ago and took another look. My first notation was that this couple was related in the second degree. I never noted whether it was by consanguinity or affinity. But usually if I didn't note it, it was by consanguinity. Well, my second look proved important because I had missed an important
Re: [AZORES-Genealogy] related in the second degree
I have a grandfather marrying his granddaughter. It was in the 1880s and did surprise me! - Shirl - From: "yukonang...@aol.com" To: azores@googlegroups.com Sent: Friday, May 24, 2013 9:42 AM Subject: Re: [AZORES-Genealogy] related in the second degree I keep reading about cousins marring, but are there any recorded uncle and niece marriage. I know this happened, at least in my family. I could not believe it when I first found this. My great grandfather, gave his daughter to his brother when she was 18. I thought it was odd that her maiden name was not on license. While we may not all be super intelligent we got by. As far as I know there were no great deformities or retardation from this and the line lives into their late 80's to 90's, I am the only one with any defect and that is in my heart. So to say I was amazed to learn this news I was not totally shocked, just really got me interested in my Azorean roots. -- For options, such as changing to List, Digest, Abridged, or No Mail (vacation) mode, log into your Google account and visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/Azores. Click in the blue area on the right that says "Join this group" and it will take you to "Edit my membership." --- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Azores Genealogy" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to azores+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to azores@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/azores?hl=en.
Re: [AZORES-Genealogy] related in the second degree
I keep reading about cousins marring, but are there any recorded uncle and niece marriage. I know this happened, at least in my family. I could not believe it when I first found this. My great grandfather, gave his daughter to his brother when she was 18. I thought it was odd that her maiden name was not on license. While we may not all be super intelligent we got by. As far as I know there were no great deformities or retardation from this and the line lives into their late 80's to 90's, I am the only one with any defect and that is in my heart. So to say I was amazed to learn this news I was not totally shocked, just really got me interested in my Azorean roots. In a message dated 5/22/2013 3:50:51 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time, p...@dholmes.com writes: First cousins who married is nothing surprising for the Azores. My grandmother's parents were first cousins from Sao Roque do Pico. And like Nancy, I have numerous ancestors who married cousins, both from Pico and not so many, but also in Terceira. What surprised me was seeing these double first cousins, as Cheri tells us they are called. I might have simply forgotten, but I am not sure I ever saw it before. In fact, I look very carefully at every marriage record and hope they were cousins. There are numerous times I have found older ancestors of my own, not to mention for others, based on this fact. I believe I mentioned this many years ago on the old Azores List on Rootsweb, but first cousins having children can have no visible bad results in children. My grandmother, daughter of first cousins, lived to 101. Her brother lived into his 90s. Another brother was in his 80s, I believe. Doug da Rocha Holmes Sacramento, California Pico & Terceira Genealogist 916-550-1618 _www.dholmes.com_ (http://www.dholmes.com/) Original Message ---- Subject: RE: [AZORES-Genealogy] related in the second degree From: nancy jean baptiste <_fishsongfarm@hotmail.com_ (mailto:fishsongf...@hotmail.com) > Date: Wed, May 22, 2013 1:55 pm To: azores group <_azores@googlegroups.com_ (mailto:azores@googlegroups.com) > My Furtado Cardoso great grandparents were first cousins on Picotheir line is FILLED with cousin marriagesover and over through the generations. While there are no obvious problems from this I suspect that things like diabetes and heart disease are increased in these close lines. their daughter married a man whose parents were from Sao Jorge and Santa Mariatheir son, my father married my mom whose complete line is from Sao Jorge..I've found many surnames between my mom's Sao Jorge line and my dad's fathers Sao Jorge line..cousins? Maybe distant onesI don't know. I read that Flores has the highest incidence of Machado Joseph disease found among the Azorean people and it is attributed to the frequency of inbreeding. Sometimes things are oksometimes not. Nancy Jean Date: Wed, 22 May 2013 13:42:28 -0700 Subject: Re: [AZORES-Genealogy] related in the second degree From: _gfsjohnv@gmail.com_ (mailto:gfsjo...@gmail.com) To: _azores@googlegroups.com_ (mailto:azores@googlegroups.com) Doug, Cousin Marriages are common on Flores because it is such a small Island. I have cousin marriages on both sides of my family tree. If the genes are good, superior decendants can be produced. I have some first cousins on my father's side that married. One of their children married the child of another first cousin of mine making them second cousins who married. This couple had 4 children all of whom are college graduates. One of these four children is now a professor at Boston University. John Vasconcelos On Tue, May 21, 2013 at 10:31 PM, <_pico@dholmes.com_ (mailto:p...@dholmes.com) > wrote: I ran across an old document I had translated about 15 years ago and took another look. My first notation was that this couple was related in the second degree. I never noted whether it was by consanguinity or affinity. But usually if I didn't note it, it was by consanguinity. Well, my second look proved important because I had missed an important word "duplicado" (duplicate). In case you never knew, this means not only they were first cousins, but first cousins in two different ways. If you think about it, that means they each shared all four of their grandparents. They had no ancestors other than what they shared. Talk about in-breeding. Who was this couple? It was the Capitão-mor of Angra. The highest military rank available. His name was Manuel Homem da Costa e Noronha Ponce de Leão. Find him in any Terceira nobility book to see his illustrious ancestry. One might wonder whether their children were born healthy. Well, I don't know all the facts yet, but I do know they had 10 children. Three possibly die
Re: [AZORES-Genealogy] related in the second degree
*Yes Nancy, * *There were certain families that you didn't marry into. I remember my Father forbidding my sister to go out on a date with the son of a family friend who was also from Flores. We kids didn't know the reason at the time. It was"OLD COUNTRY genetic engineering. The oldtimers just kept track which families had problems and who NOT to marry. Actually, the disease is named after a Machodo family from Sao Miguel and a Joseph family from Flores. You just had to be careful which cousins you married * * I have one set of great grand parents who were first cousins: Francisco Victorino de Vasconcellos and Anna Filizarda de Vasconcellos. Their fathers were brothers: Francisco Ignacio de Vasconcellos and Nicolau Antonio de Vasconcellos. I had a first cousin, daughter of my father's sister, who recently died shortly before her 99th birthday. She had 3 siblings all of who were in their 90's when they died. * *Ther were probably more "arranged marriages" for genetic reasons than you might think. * *John Vasconcelos * On Wed, May 22, 2013 at 1:55 PM, nancy jean baptiste < fishsongf...@hotmail.com> wrote: > My Furtado Cardoso great grandparents were first cousins on Picotheir > line is FILLED with cousin marriagesover and over through the > generations. While there are no obvious problems from this I suspect that > things like diabetes and heart disease are increased in these close lines. > their daughter married a man whose parents were from Sao Jorge and Santa > Mariatheir son, my father married my mom whose complete line is from > Sao Jorge..I've found many surnames between my mom's Sao Jorge line and > my dad's fathers Sao Jorge line..cousins? Maybe distant onesI don't > know. > > I read that Flores has the highest incidence of Machado Joseph disease > found among the Azorean people and it is attributed to the frequency of > inbreeding. Sometimes things are oksometimes not. > > Nancy Jean > > -------------- > Date: Wed, 22 May 2013 13:42:28 -0700 > Subject: Re: [AZORES-Genealogy] related in the second degree > From: gfsjo...@gmail.com > To: azores@googlegroups.com > > > Doug, > Cousin Marriages are common on Flores because it is such a small Island. I > have cousin marriages on both sides of my family tree. If the genes are > good, superior decendants can be produced. I have some first cousins on my > father's side that married. One of their children married the child of > another first cousin of mine making them second cousins who married. This > couple had 4 children all of whom are college graduates. One of these four > children is now a professor at Boston University. > John Vasconcelos > > > On Tue, May 21, 2013 at 10:31 PM, wrote: > > I ran across an old document I had translated about 15 years ago and took > another look. > My first notation was that this couple was related in the second degree. I > never noted whether it was by consanguinity or affinity. > But usually if I didn't note it, it was by consanguinity. > > Well, my second look proved important because I had missed an important > word "duplicado" (duplicate). > > In case you never knew, this means not only they were first cousins, but > first cousins in two different ways. > If you think about it, that means they each shared all four of their > grandparents. They had no ancestors other than what they shared. > Talk about in-breeding. > > Who was this couple? It was the Capitão-mor of Angra. The highest military > rank available. > His name was Manuel Homem da Costa e Noronha Ponce de Leão. > > Find him in any Terceira nobility book to see his illustrious ancestry. > > One might wonder whether their children were born healthy. Well, I don't > know all the facts yet, but I do know they had 10 children. > Three possibly died young - at least I haven't yet noticed them listed as > adults at marriage or as godparents. > A few seemed to have average life spans of at least 60 years. Not yet > sure of the rest. > > I do know they have many descendants today, including some of my cousins. > > Just think how this combined DNA might affect the Family Finder results. > > I just thought it was interesting. > > Doug da Rocha Holmes > Sacramento, California > Pico & Terceira Genealogist > 916-550-1618 > www.dholmes.com > > -- > For options, such as changing to List, Digest, Abridged, or No Mail > (vacation) mode, log into your Google account and visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/Azores. Click in the blue area on the > right that says "Join this group" and it will take you to "Edit my > membership." > --- > You receiv
RE: [AZORES-Genealogy] related in the second degree
First cousins who married is nothing surprising for the Azores. My grandmother's parents were first cousins from Sao Roque do Pico.And like Nancy, I have numerous ancestors who married cousins, both from Pico and not so many, but also in Terceira.What surprised me was seeing these double first cousins, as Cheri tells us they are called. I might have simply forgotten, but I am not sure I ever saw it before.In fact, I look very carefully at every marriage record and hope they were cousins. There are numerous times I have found older ancestors of my own, not to mention for others, based on this fact.I believe I mentioned this many years ago on the old Azores List on Rootsweb, but first cousins having children can have no visible bad results in children.My grandmother, daughter of first cousins, lived to 101. Her brother lived into his 90s. Another brother was in his 80s, I believe.Doug da Rocha HolmesSacramento, CaliforniaPico & Terceira Genealogist916-550-1618www.dholmes.com Original Message Subject: RE: [AZORES-Genealogy] related in the second degree From: nancy jean baptiste <fishsongf...@hotmail.com> Date: Wed, May 22, 2013 1:55 pm To: azores group <azores@googlegroups.com> My Furtado Cardoso great grandparents were first cousins on Picotheir line is FILLED with cousin marriagesover and over through the generations. While there are no obvious problems from this I suspect that things like diabetes and heart disease are increased in these close lines. their daughter married a man whose parents were from Sao Jorge and Santa Mariatheir son, my father married my mom whose complete line is from Sao Jorge..I've found many surnames between my mom's Sao Jorge line and my dad's fathers Sao Jorge line..cousins? Maybe distant onesI don't know. I read that Flores has the highest incidence of Machado Joseph disease found among the Azorean people and it is attributed to the frequency of inbreeding. Sometimes things are oksometimes not. Nancy Jean Date: Wed, 22 May 2013 13:42:28 -0700Subject: Re: [AZORES-Genealogy] related in the second degreeFrom: gfsjo...@gmail.comTo: azores@googlegroups.comDoug,Cousin Marriages are common on Flores because it is such a small Island. I have cousin marriages on both sides of my family tree. If the genes are good, superior decendants can be produced. I have some first cousins on my father's side that married. One of their children married the child of another first cousin of mine making them second cousins who married. This couple had 4 children all of whom are college graduates. One of these four children is now a professor at Boston University. John VasconcelosOn Tue, May 21, 2013 at 10:31 PM, <p...@dholmes.com> wrote: I ran across an old document I had translated about 15 years ago and took another look. My first notation was that this couple was related in the second degree. I never noted whether it was by consanguinity or affinity.But usually if I didn't note it, it was by consanguinity. Well, my second look proved important because I had missed an important word "duplicado" (duplicate).In case you never knew, this means not only they were first cousins, but first cousins in two different ways. If you think about it, that means they each shared all four of their grandparents. They had no ancestors other than what they shared.Talk about in-breeding.Who was this couple? It was the Capitão-mor of Angra. The highest military rank available. His name was Manuel Homem da Costa e Noronha Ponce de Leão.Find him in any Terceira nobility book to see his illustrious ancestry.One might wonder whether their children were born healthy. Well, I don't know all the facts yet, but I do know they had 10 children. Three possibly died young - at least I haven't yet noticed them listed as adults at marriage or as godparents.A few seemed to have average life spans of at least 60 years. Not yet sure of the rest. I do know they have many descendants today, including some of my cousins.Just think how this combined DNA might affect the Family Finder results. I just thought it was interesting.Doug da Rocha HolmesSacramento, CaliforniaPico & Terceira Genealogist916-550-1618 www.dholmes.com -- -- For options, such as changing to List, Digest, Abridged, or No Mail (vacation) mode, log into your Google account and visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/Azores. Click in the blue area on the right that says "Join this group" and it will take you to "Edit my membership." --- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Azores Genealogy" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to azores+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to azores@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/azores?hl=en.
RE: [AZORES-Genealogy] related in the second degree
My Furtado Cardoso great grandparents were first cousins on Picotheir line is FILLED with cousin marriagesover and over through the generations. While there are no obvious problems from this I suspect that things like diabetes and heart disease are increased in these close lines. their daughter married a man whose parents were from Sao Jorge and Santa Mariatheir son, my father married my mom whose complete line is from Sao Jorge..I've found many surnames between my mom's Sao Jorge line and my dad's fathers Sao Jorge line..cousins? Maybe distant onesI don't know. I read that Flores has the highest incidence of Machado Joseph disease found among the Azorean people and it is attributed to the frequency of inbreeding. Sometimes things are oksometimes not. Nancy Jean Date: Wed, 22 May 2013 13:42:28 -0700 Subject: Re: [AZORES-Genealogy] related in the second degree From: gfsjo...@gmail.com To: azores@googlegroups.com Doug, Cousin Marriages are common on Flores because it is such a small Island. I have cousin marriages on both sides of my family tree. If the genes are good, superior decendants can be produced. I have some first cousins on my father's side that married. One of their children married the child of another first cousin of mine making them second cousins who married. This couple had 4 children all of whom are college graduates. One of these four children is now a professor at Boston University. John Vasconcelos On Tue, May 21, 2013 at 10:31 PM, wrote: I ran across an old document I had translated about 15 years ago and took another look. My first notation was that this couple was related in the second degree. I never noted whether it was by consanguinity or affinity.But usually if I didn't note it, it was by consanguinity. Well, my second look proved important because I had missed an important word "duplicado" (duplicate). In case you never knew, this means not only they were first cousins, but first cousins in two different ways. If you think about it, that means they each shared all four of their grandparents. They had no ancestors other than what they shared.Talk about in-breeding. Who was this couple? It was the Capitão-mor of Angra. The highest military rank available. His name was Manuel Homem da Costa e Noronha Ponce de Leão. Find him in any Terceira nobility book to see his illustrious ancestry. One might wonder whether their children were born healthy. Well, I don't know all the facts yet, but I do know they had 10 children. Three possibly died young - at least I haven't yet noticed them listed as adults at marriage or as godparents.A few seemed to have average life spans of at least 60 years. Not yet sure of the rest. I do know they have many descendants today, including some of my cousins. Just think how this combined DNA might affect the Family Finder results. I just thought it was interesting. Doug da Rocha Holmes Sacramento, California Pico & Terceira Genealogist 916-550-1618 www.dholmes.com -- For options, such as changing to List, Digest, Abridged, or No Mail (vacation) mode, log into your Google account and visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/Azores. Click in the blue area on the right that says "Join this group" and it will take you to "Edit my membership." --- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Azores Genealogy" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to azores+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to azores@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/azores?hl=en. -- For options, such as changing to List, Digest, Abridged, or No Mail (vacation) mode, log into your Google account and visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/Azores. Click in the blue area on the right that says "Join this group" and it will take you to "Edit my membership." --- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Azores Genealogy" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to azores+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to azores@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/azores?hl=en. -- For options, such as changing to List, Digest, Abridged, or No Mail (vacation) mode, log into your Google account and visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/Azores. Click in the blue area on the right that says "Join this group" and it will take you to "Edit my membership." --- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Azores Genealogy" group. To unsubscribe from this group and st
Re: [AZORES-Genealogy] related in the second degree
Doug, Cousin Marriages are common on Flores because it is such a small Island. I have cousin marriages on both sides of my family tree. If the genes are good, superior decendants can be produced. I have some first cousins on my father's side that married. One of their children married the child of another first cousin of mine making them second cousins who married. This couple had 4 children all of whom are college graduates. One of these four children is now a professor at Boston University. John Vasconcelos On Tue, May 21, 2013 at 10:31 PM, wrote: > I ran across an old document I had translated about 15 years ago and took > another look. > My first notation was that this couple was related in the second degree. I > never noted whether it was by consanguinity or affinity. > But usually if I didn't note it, it was by consanguinity. > > Well, my second look proved important because I had missed an important > word "duplicado" (duplicate). > > In case you never knew, this means not only they were first cousins, but > first cousins in two different ways. > If you think about it, that means they each shared all four of their > grandparents. They had no ancestors other than what they shared. > Talk about in-breeding. > > Who was this couple? It was the Capitão-mor of Angra. The highest military > rank available. > His name was Manuel Homem da Costa e Noronha Ponce de Leão. > > Find him in any Terceira nobility book to see his illustrious ancestry. > > One might wonder whether their children were born healthy. Well, I don't > know all the facts yet, but I do know they had 10 children. > Three possibly died young - at least I haven't yet noticed them listed as > adults at marriage or as godparents. > A few seemed to have average life spans of at least 60 years. Not yet > sure of the rest. > > I do know they have many descendants today, including some of my cousins. > > Just think how this combined DNA might affect the Family Finder results. > > I just thought it was interesting. > > Doug da Rocha Holmes > Sacramento, California > Pico & Terceira Genealogist > 916-550-1618 > www.dholmes.com > > -- > For options, such as changing to List, Digest, Abridged, or No Mail > (vacation) mode, log into your Google account and visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/Azores. Click in the blue area on the > right that says "Join this group" and it will take you to "Edit my > membership." > --- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Azores Genealogy" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to azores+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to azores@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/azores?hl=en. > > > -- For options, such as changing to List, Digest, Abridged, or No Mail (vacation) mode, log into your Google account and visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/Azores. Click in the blue area on the right that says "Join this group" and it will take you to "Edit my membership." --- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Azores Genealogy" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to azores+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to azores@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/azores?hl=en.
Re: [AZORES-Genealogy] related in the second degree
Doug, We call that double first cousins here. My dad's Portuguese grandparents were double first cousins. I know Carol (Silva) Warnock of this list has the same thing in her tree. I'm sure there are others. All 4 of the offspring from my dad's grandparents were just fine. One was killed by a drunk driver, one died of lung cancer (he was a smoker), and the other two were about 80 when they died in the 1990s. Yeah, it screws up the Family Finder results. My dad might as well be his father, genetically speaking. Since one inherits 25% of their DNA from the grandparents, but 2 grandparents are siblings and the other 2 are siblings, my dad got the same 25% which is really 50%! Cheri Mello Listowner, Azores-Gen Researching: Vila Franca, Ponta Garca, Ribeira Quente, Ribeira das Tainhas, Achada -- For options, such as changing to List, Digest, Abridged, or No Mail (vacation) mode, log into your Google account and visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/Azores. Click in the blue area on the right that says "Join this group" and it will take you to "Edit my membership." --- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Azores Genealogy" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to azores+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to azores@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/azores?hl=en.
[AZORES-Genealogy] related in the second degree
I ran across an old document I had translated about 15 years ago and took another look.My first notation was that this couple was related in the second degree. I never noted whether it was by consanguinity or affinity.But usually if I didn't note it, it was by consanguinity.Well, my second look proved important because I had missed an important word "duplicado" (duplicate).In case you never knew, this means not only they were first cousins, but first cousins in two different ways.If you think about it, that means they each shared all four of their grandparents. They had no ancestors other than what they shared.Talk about in-breeding.Who was this couple? It was the Capitão-mor of Angra. The highest military rank available. His name was Manuel Homem da Costa e Noronha Ponce de Leão.Find him in any Terceira nobility book to see his illustrious ancestry.One might wonder whether their children were born healthy. Well, I don't know all the facts yet, but I do know they had 10 children.Three possibly died young - at least I haven't yet noticed them listed as adults at marriage or as godparents.A few seemed to have average life spans of at least 60 years. Not yet sure of the rest.I do know they have many descendants today, including some of my cousins.Just think how this combined DNA might affect the Family Finder results.I just thought it was interesting.Doug da Rocha HolmesSacramento, CaliforniaPico & Terceira Genealogist916-550-1618www.dholmes.com -- For options, such as changing to List, Digest, Abridged, or No Mail (vacation) mode, log into your Google account and visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/Azores. Click in the blue area on the right that says "Join this group" and it will take you to "Edit my membership." --- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Azores Genealogy" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to azores+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to azores@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/azores?hl=en.
