Re: [backstage] License to Kill Innovation: the Broadcast Flag for UK Digital TV?

[Rhys Jones]

September 30th? Oh no, not again.

This all means I'll have had to retune my mother's TV and Freeview DVD
recorder no fewer than four times within five weeks. She lives within the
Carmel transmitter area, for which the dates were/are:

August 26th (DSO1)
September 9th (S4C moved to Mux B, Wales-wide)
September 23rd (DSO2)
September 30th (Mux B changes, UK-wide)

It'll settle down after this, I hope...

Rhys

2009/9/18 Brian Butterworth 

> It's not really being "converted".  The Freeview HD services are a cease
> and re-provide.
> After switch-over the multiplexes are known as BBCA, D3+4, BBCB, SDN, ARQA
> and ARQB or PSB1, PSB2, PSB3, COM4, COM5 and COM6 (plus the MEN mux in
> Manchester).
>


> [helpful graphic snipped]
>
> 2009/9/18 Simon Thompson 
>
> Poor choice of words by me.
>>
>> Multiplex B is having the SD channels removed from it and is being
>> converted to MPEG4 part 10 and DVB-T2 to allow HD channels to be
>> transmitted.
>>
>> 2009/9/18 Brian Butterworth 
>>
>> Multiplex B aka PSB3 aka BBCB is not VACATED by the BBC, BBC FTV Ltd still
>>> owns the multiplex.   It is being used for Freeview HD carrying three (soon
>>> four) public service HD channels.
>>>
>>> 2009/9/17 Simon Thompson 
>>>
>>> Ofcom is going to use Multiplex B (vacated by the BBC) to provide DVB-T2
 HD services.  First region on air is Granada later this year.

 2009/9/17 Alun Rowe 


>  Will we ever see HD freeview though?  The bandwidth requirement would
> be enormous.
>
>
> On 17 Sep 2009, at 16:53, "Frankie Roberto" <
> fran...@frankieroberto.com> wrote:
>
>
> 2009/9/17 Christopher Woods < 
> chris...@infinitus.co.uk>
>
>  Moreover, you just *know* that within months of any broadcast flag
>> implementation, the more creative technological tinkerers will have
>> subverted the flag entirely using commonplace/free equipment and 
>> software.
>> Like region coding, broadcast flags really are an exercise in stupidity 
>> and
>> corporate backslapping.
>>
>
> By the sounds of it, the main 'enforcement' mechanism of the metadata
> compression/encryption isn't so much technological, as the fact that you
> won't be able to use the "Freeview HD" logo, or be listed on the Freeview
> website, without signing for a free licence (which requires you to 
> implement
> some as-yet-unspecified restrictions). Which won't really stop free 
> software
> from existing - but may stop it from being a commercial success.
>
> That said, I wonder how many people will really bother to upgrade from
> Freeview to Freeview HD anyway - standard definition Freeview seems good
> enough for most people (especially those with non-enormous tellies). So 
> the
> migration to Freeview HD will happen slowly, as people upgrade their
> televisions as part of their natural lifecycle. (Assuming that the signal
> doesn't get switched off).
>
> Frankie
>
> --
> Frankie Roberto
> Experience Designer, Rattle
> 0114 2706977
> http://www.rattlecentral.com
>
>
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Re: [backstage] License to Kill Innovation: the Broadcast Flag for UK Digital TV?

[Ant Miller]

On a side bar, the estimable @nevali is doing lovely work on an IPTV
interface, incluing a far nicer Freeview logo!

http://emberapp.com/nevali/images/services-menu

a

On Mon, Sep 21, 2009 at 9:22 AM, Andrew Bowden  wrote:
>> Brian Butterworth wrote:
>> > I thought we were talking about FreeVIEW HD.  Freesat is named the
>> > same, Freesat+ is the PVR, Freesat HD is the HD service,
>> > Freesat+ HD is the PVR with HD
>> We were talking about Freeview, however if it follows the
>> same conventions as Freesat then Freeview+ can mean HD too.
>> The Humax Freesat HD PVR is branded Freesat+, see here:
>> http://www.humaxdigital.com/uk/products/product_stb_satellite_
>> foxsathdr.
>> asp
>> As are the Panasonic HD recorders:
>> http://www.panasonic.co.uk/html/en_GB/Products/DVD+Recorders+%
>> 26+Players
>> /DIGA+DVD+Recorders/DMR-XS350/Overview/2359654/index.html
>> I've yet to see a device branded Freesat+ HD, and I've not
>> seen it mentioned in any publicity.
>
> Ah well when Freesat's involved there's an inveitable issue here as so
> far there hasn't been an SD PVR in the range in order to distinguish
> between Freesat+ and Freesat HD+/+HD/whatever.
>
> The Freesat website basically pushes freesat+ as a HD DVR, and so far
> there are companies interested in manufacturering even the basic SD
> boxes.
> http://www.freesat.co.uk/index.php?page=products.Products&type_id=3
>
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RE: [backstage] License to Kill Innovation: the Broadcast Flag for UK Digital TV?

[Andrew Bowden]

> Brian Butterworth wrote:
> > I thought we were talking about FreeVIEW HD.  Freesat is named the
> > same, Freesat+ is the PVR, Freesat HD is the HD service, 
> > Freesat+ HD is the PVR with HD 
> We were talking about Freeview, however if it follows the 
> same conventions as Freesat then Freeview+ can mean HD too.
> The Humax Freesat HD PVR is branded Freesat+, see here: 
> http://www.humaxdigital.com/uk/products/product_stb_satellite_
> foxsathdr.
> asp
> As are the Panasonic HD recorders:
> http://www.panasonic.co.uk/html/en_GB/Products/DVD+Recorders+%
> 26+Players
> /DIGA+DVD+Recorders/DMR-XS350/Overview/2359654/index.html
> I've yet to see a device branded Freesat+ HD, and I've not 
> seen it mentioned in any publicity.

Ah well when Freesat's involved there's an inveitable issue here as so
far there hasn't been an SD PVR in the range in order to distinguish
between Freesat+ and Freesat HD+/+HD/whatever.

The Freesat website basically pushes freesat+ as a HD DVR, and so far
there are companies interested in manufacturering even the basic SD
boxes.
http://www.freesat.co.uk/index.php?page=products.Products&type_id=3

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Re: [backstage] License to Kill Innovation: the Broadcast Flag for UK Digital TV?

[Brian Butterworth]

What tosh.

2009/9/18 Tom Morris 

> On Fri, Sep 18, 2009 at 18:19, Brian Butterworth 
> wrote:
> > BUT
> > The plus denotes a PVR
> > and two letter
> > denote HD
> > There's no wonder 8% of the public think the TVL pays for ITV
>
> Well, we've got:
>
> * Internet
> * Internet+ - lets you save files!
> * Internet HD - appears in high resolution
> * Internet HD+ - appears in high resolution AND lets you save files
>
> And of course there are different regulatory guidelines for each one.
> We haven't yet figured out how Internet HD+ is going to work, so let's
> consult with "stakeholders" and rightsholders but not users...
>
> The semantics of this have doomed it from the start: the job of the
> BBC and of the regulators and the broadcasting infrastructure is to
> get the stuff into my home. It's not a protocol-level issue, nor a
> branding issue, whether the content is high-resolution or not or
> whether, once I've got it, I record it onto a hard disk recorder or
> not.
>
> --
> Tom Morris
> 
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RE: [backstage] License to Kill Innovation: the Broadcast Flag for UK Digital TV?

[Christopher Woods]

 

I totally agree about the Freeview logo.  When I was a kid you could get
Cooper Black[1] in Boots The Chemist dry transfer lettering (poor man's
Letraset).  Everytime I see it I just think of the "layouts" I did at school
using a typewriter (before the school has a printer) and Cooper Black.  I've
even got some it in a box of old things somewhere.


Does anyone like the BBC HD logo? 

It's amost right - that two-tone effect they have on the joined
verticals of the HD always looks like pixelation or an encoding flaw to my
subconscious mind, which then makes me focus on it and wastes that valuable
viewing time ;) and it must be using far more bits to encode the difference
when they could just be using a solid black fill for the whole thing. Seems
a bit wasteful and quite distracting to be honest.
 
BBC HD dog needs to be done away with completely 100% of the time, imho.
I've laboriously tuned to the BBC HD channel myself and should I have a bout
of sudden-onset amnesia, I always have the EPG to remind me. Otherwise I
always know exactly which channel I'm watching. (yes, I'm a fan of DOGless
TV!)

Re: [backstage] License to Kill Innovation: the Broadcast Flag for UK Digital TV?

[Tom Morris]

On Fri, Sep 18, 2009 at 18:19, Brian Butterworth  wrote:
> BUT
> The plus denotes a PVR
> and two letter
> denote HD
> There's no wonder 8% of the public think the TVL pays for ITV

Well, we've got:

* Internet
* Internet+ - lets you save files!
* Internet HD - appears in high resolution
* Internet HD+ - appears in high resolution AND lets you save files

And of course there are different regulatory guidelines for each one.
We haven't yet figured out how Internet HD+ is going to work, so let's
consult with "stakeholders" and rightsholders but not users...

The semantics of this have doomed it from the start: the job of the
BBC and of the regulators and the broadcasting infrastructure is to
get the stuff into my home. It's not a protocol-level issue, nor a
branding issue, whether the content is high-resolution or not or
whether, once I've got it, I record it onto a hard disk recorder or
not.

-- 
Tom Morris

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Re: [backstage] License to Kill Innovation: the Broadcast Flag for UK Digital TV?

[Scot McSweeney-Roberts]

On Fri, Sep 18, 2009 at 15:54, Brian Butterworth wrote:

> Once again, Freeview+ is the PVR, Freeview HD is the HD service
>
>
I know that, I was requoting  Ant's minor slipup of using Freeview+ for
FreeviewHD

Re: [backstage] License to Kill Innovation: the Broadcast Flag for UK Digital TV?

[Brian Butterworth]

Ant,
I totally agree about the Freeview logo.  When I was a kid you could get
Cooper Black[1] in Boots The Chemist dry transfer lettering (poor man's
Letraset).  Everytime I see it I just think of the "layouts" I did at school
using a typewriter (before the school has a printer) and Cooper Black.  I've
even got some it in a box of old things somewhere.

Does anyone like the BBC HD logo?


[1] http://new.myfonts.com/fonts/linotype/cooper-black/

2009/9/18 Ant Miller 

> To be honest I saw a lot of confusing presentation of logos in the
> DVB-T2 presentation at IBC.  It's a personal point but I happen to
> think the Freeview logo is an absolute dog of design, and all the +
> and HD tack ons are awful.  Still waddo I know?!
>
> a
>
> On Fri, Sep 18, 2009 at 6:19 PM, Brian Butterworth
>  wrote:
> > BUT
> > The plus denotes a PVR
> > and two letter
> > denote HD
> > There's no wonder 8% of the public think the TVL pays for ITV
> > 2009/9/18 Gareth Davis 
> >>
> >> Brian Butterworth wrote:
> >> > I thought we were talking about FreeVIEW HD.  Freesat is named the
> >> same, Freesat+ is the PVR, Freesat HD is the HD service, Freesat+ HD is
> >> the PVR with HD
> >>
> >> We were talking about Freeview, however if it follows the same
> >> conventions as Freesat then Freeview+ can mean HD too.
> >>
> >> The Humax Freesat HD PVR is branded Freesat+, see here:
> >> http://www.humaxdigital.com/uk/products/product_stb_satellite_foxsathdr
> .
> >> asp
> >>
> >> As are the Panasonic HD recorders:
> >>
> http://www.panasonic.co.uk/html/en_GB/Products/DVD+Recorders+%26+Players
> >> /DIGA+DVD+Recorders/DMR-XS350/Overview/2359654/index.html
> >>
> >> I've yet to see a device branded Freesat+ HD, and I've not seen it
> >> mentioned in any publicity.
> >>
> >> --
> >> Gareth Davis | Production Systems Specialist
> >> World Service Future Media, Digital Delivery Team - Part of BBC Global
> >> News Division
> >> 8 http://www.bbcworldservice.com/   +
> >> 500NE Bush House, Strand, London, WC2B 4PH
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> -
> >> Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group.  To unsubscribe,
> please
> >> visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html.
> >>  Unofficial list archive:
> >> http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> >
> > Brian Butterworth
> >
> > follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/briantist
> > web: http://www.ukfree.tv - independent digital television and
> switchover
> > advice, since 2002
> >
>
>
>
> --
> Ant Miller
>
> tel: 07709 265961
> email: ant.mil...@gmail.com
>
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Re: [backstage] License to Kill Innovation: the Broadcast Flag for UK Digital TV?

[Ant Miller]

To be honest I saw a lot of confusing presentation of logos in the
DVB-T2 presentation at IBC.  It's a personal point but I happen to
think the Freeview logo is an absolute dog of design, and all the +
and HD tack ons are awful.  Still waddo I know?!

a

On Fri, Sep 18, 2009 at 6:19 PM, Brian Butterworth
 wrote:
> BUT
> The plus denotes a PVR
> and two letter
> denote HD
> There's no wonder 8% of the public think the TVL pays for ITV
> 2009/9/18 Gareth Davis 
>>
>> Brian Butterworth wrote:
>> > I thought we were talking about FreeVIEW HD.  Freesat is named the
>> same, Freesat+ is the PVR, Freesat HD is the HD service, Freesat+ HD is
>> the PVR with HD
>>
>> We were talking about Freeview, however if it follows the same
>> conventions as Freesat then Freeview+ can mean HD too.
>>
>> The Humax Freesat HD PVR is branded Freesat+, see here:
>> http://www.humaxdigital.com/uk/products/product_stb_satellite_foxsathdr.
>> asp
>>
>> As are the Panasonic HD recorders:
>> http://www.panasonic.co.uk/html/en_GB/Products/DVD+Recorders+%26+Players
>> /DIGA+DVD+Recorders/DMR-XS350/Overview/2359654/index.html
>>
>> I've yet to see a device branded Freesat+ HD, and I've not seen it
>> mentioned in any publicity.
>>
>> --
>> Gareth Davis | Production Systems Specialist
>> World Service Future Media, Digital Delivery Team - Part of BBC Global
>> News Division
>> 8 http://www.bbcworldservice.com/   +
>> 500NE Bush House, Strand, London, WC2B 4PH
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> -
>> Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group.  To unsubscribe, please
>> visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html.
>>  Unofficial list archive:
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>
>
>
> --
>
> Brian Butterworth
>
> follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/briantist
> web: http://www.ukfree.tv - independent digital television and switchover
> advice, since 2002
>



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Re: [backstage] License to Kill Innovation: the Broadcast Flag for UK Digital TV?

[Brian Butterworth]

BUT

The plus denotes a PVR

and two letter

denote HD

There's no wonder 8% of the public think the TVL pays for ITV

2009/9/18 Gareth Davis 

>
> Brian Butterworth wrote:
> > I thought we were talking about FreeVIEW HD.  Freesat is named the
> same, Freesat+ is the PVR, Freesat HD is the HD service, Freesat+ HD is
> the PVR with HD
>
> We were talking about Freeview, however if it follows the same
> conventions as Freesat then Freeview+ can mean HD too.
>
> The Humax Freesat HD PVR is branded Freesat+, see here:
> http://www.humaxdigital.com/uk/products/product_stb_satellite_foxsathdr.
> asp
>
> As are the Panasonic HD recorders:
> http://www.panasonic.co.uk/html/en_GB/Products/DVD+Recorders+%26+Players
> /DIGA+DVD+Recorders/DMR-XS350/Overview/2359654/index.html
>
> I've yet to see a device branded Freesat+ HD, and I've not seen it
> mentioned in any publicity.
>
> --
> Gareth Davis | Production Systems Specialist
> World Service Future Media, Digital Delivery Team - Part of BBC Global
> News Division
> 8 http://www.bbcworldservice.com/   +
> 500NE Bush House, Strand, London, WC2B 4PH
>
>
>
>
> -
> Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group.  To unsubscribe, please
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web: http://www.ukfree.tv - independent digital television and switchover
advice, since 2002

RE: [backstage] License to Kill Innovation: the Broadcast Flag for UK Digital TV?

[Gareth Davis]

Brian Butterworth wrote:
> I thought we were talking about FreeVIEW HD.  Freesat is named the
same, Freesat+ is the PVR, Freesat HD is the HD service, Freesat+ HD is
the PVR with HD 

We were talking about Freeview, however if it follows the same
conventions as Freesat then Freeview+ can mean HD too.

The Humax Freesat HD PVR is branded Freesat+, see here: 
http://www.humaxdigital.com/uk/products/product_stb_satellite_foxsathdr.
asp

As are the Panasonic HD recorders:
http://www.panasonic.co.uk/html/en_GB/Products/DVD+Recorders+%26+Players
/DIGA+DVD+Recorders/DMR-XS350/Overview/2359654/index.html

I've yet to see a device branded Freesat+ HD, and I've not seen it
mentioned in any publicity.
 
-- 
Gareth Davis | Production Systems Specialist
World Service Future Media, Digital Delivery Team - Part of BBC Global
News Division
8 http://www.bbcworldservice.com/   +
500NE Bush House, Strand, London, WC2B 4PH


 

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Re: [backstage] License to Kill Innovation: the Broadcast Flag for UK Digital TV?

[Brian Butterworth]

I thought we were talking about FreeVIEW HD.  Freesat is named the same,
Freesat+ is the PVR, Freesat HD is the HD service, Freesat+ HD is the PVR
with HD...

2009/9/18 Gareth Davis 

> Brian Butterworth wrote:
>
> > Once again, Freeview+ is the PVR, Freeview HD is the HD service
>
> As an aside, the two types of Freesat receiver we have in the office are
> marked Freesat HD and Freesat+. But the Freesat+ box does HD as well as
> PVR.
>
> --
> Gareth Davis | Production Systems Specialist
> World Service Future Media, Digital Delivery Team - Part of BBC Global
> News Division
> 8 http://www.bbcworldservice.com/   +
> 500NE Bush House, Strand, London, WC2B 4PH
>
> -
> Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group.  To unsubscribe, please
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RE: [backstage] License to Kill Innovation: the Broadcast Flag for UK Digital TV?

[Gareth Davis]

Brian Butterworth wrote: 

> Once again, Freeview+ is the PVR, Freeview HD is the HD service 

As an aside, the two types of Freesat receiver we have in the office are
marked Freesat HD and Freesat+. But the Freesat+ box does HD as well as
PVR.
 
-- 
Gareth Davis | Production Systems Specialist
World Service Future Media, Digital Delivery Team - Part of BBC Global
News Division
8 http://www.bbcworldservice.com/   +
500NE Bush House, Strand, London, WC2B 4PH

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Re: [backstage] License to Kill Innovation: the Broadcast Flag for UK Digital TV?

[Brian Butterworth]

Once again, Freeview+ is the PVR, Freeview HD is the HD service
2009/9/18 Scot McSweeney-Roberts 

>
>
> On Fri, Sep 18, 2009 at 01:01, Mr I Forrester wrote:
>
>> On Thu, 2009-09-17 at 22:04 +0100, Scot McSweeney-Roberts wrote:
>>
>> >
>> > I think that there's going to be a lot of unhappy freeview HDTV owners
>> > wondering why the TV they have recently bought isn't picking up the
>> > new HD channels when they're launched (especially as the TV was
>> > probably sold as "HD Ready").
>> >
>> >
>>
>> But to be fair, whos's fault is that?
>>
>> Ian
>>
>>
>
> It doesn't matter whose at fault (especially as blame would have to spread
> across Ofcom, freeview, the broadcasters, the retailers, the manufacturers
> and the public themselves).  If what matters is "Keeping audiences happy as
> DSO happens and Freeview+ rolls", then that's probably not going to happen
> in a lot of "HD Ready" households.
>
>


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Re: [backstage] License to Kill Innovation: the Broadcast Flag for UK Digital TV?

[Scot McSweeney-Roberts]

On Fri, Sep 18, 2009 at 01:01, Mr I Forrester wrote:

> On Thu, 2009-09-17 at 22:04 +0100, Scot McSweeney-Roberts wrote:
>
> >
> > I think that there's going to be a lot of unhappy freeview HDTV owners
> > wondering why the TV they have recently bought isn't picking up the
> > new HD channels when they're launched (especially as the TV was
> > probably sold as "HD Ready").
> >
> >
>
> But to be fair, whos's fault is that?
>
> Ian
>
>

It doesn't matter whose at fault (especially as blame would have to spread
across Ofcom, freeview, the broadcasters, the retailers, the manufacturers
and the public themselves).  If what matters is "Keeping audiences happy as
DSO happens and Freeview+ rolls", then that's probably not going to happen
in a lot of "HD Ready" households.

Re: [backstage] License to Kill Innovation: the Broadcast Flag for UK Digital TV?

[Brian Butterworth]

It's not really being "converted".  The Freeview HD services are a cease and
re-provide.
After switch-over the multiplexes are known as BBCA, D3+4, BBCB, SDN, ARQA
and ARQB or PSB1, PSB2, PSB3, COM4, COM5 and COM6 (plus the MEN mux in
Manchester).



2009/9/18 Simon Thompson 

> Poor choice of words by me.
>
> Multiplex B is having the SD channels removed from it and is being
> converted to MPEG4 part 10 and DVB-T2 to allow HD channels to be
> transmitted.
>
> 2009/9/18 Brian Butterworth 
>
> Multiplex B aka PSB3 aka BBCB is not VACATED by the BBC, BBC FTV Ltd still
>> owns the multiplex.   It is being used for Freeview HD carrying three (soon
>> four) public service HD channels.
>>
>> 2009/9/17 Simon Thompson 
>>
>> Ofcom is going to use Multiplex B (vacated by the BBC) to provide DVB-T2
>>> HD services.  First region on air is Granada later this year.
>>>
>>> 2009/9/17 Alun Rowe 
>>>
>>>
  Will we ever see HD freeview though?  The bandwidth requirement would
 be enormous.


 On 17 Sep 2009, at 16:53, "Frankie Roberto" 
 wrote:


 2009/9/17 Christopher Woods < 
 chris...@infinitus.co.uk>

  Moreover, you just *know* that within months of any broadcast flag
> implementation, the more creative technological tinkerers will have
> subverted the flag entirely using commonplace/free equipment and software.
> Like region coding, broadcast flags really are an exercise in stupidity 
> and
> corporate backslapping.
>

 By the sounds of it, the main 'enforcement' mechanism of the metadata
 compression/encryption isn't so much technological, as the fact that you
 won't be able to use the "Freeview HD" logo, or be listed on the Freeview
 website, without signing for a free licence (which requires you to 
 implement
 some as-yet-unspecified restrictions). Which won't really stop free 
 software
 from existing - but may stop it from being a commercial success.

 That said, I wonder how many people will really bother to upgrade from
 Freeview to Freeview HD anyway - standard definition Freeview seems good
 enough for most people (especially those with non-enormous tellies). So the
 migration to Freeview HD will happen slowly, as people upgrade their
 televisions as part of their natural lifecycle. (Assuming that the signal
 doesn't get switched off).

 Frankie

 --
 Frankie Roberto
 Experience Designer, Rattle
 0114 2706977
 http://www.rattlecentral.com



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>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Simon Thompson
>>> GMAIL Account
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>>
>> Brian Butterworth
>>
>> follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/briantist
>> web: http://www.ukfree.tv - independent digital television and switchover
>> advice, since 2002
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Simon Thompson
> GMAIL Account
>



-- 

Brian Butterworth

follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/briantist
web: http://www.ukfree.tv - independent digital television and switchover
advice, since 2002

Re: [backstage] License to Kill Innovation: the Broadcast Flag for UK Digital TV?

[Ant Miller]

Yup, my bad.  In my defense, it's all a bit complex, and the slides I
saw didn't make the distinction clear.

Still and all, to get back to the original thread subject, I've seen
no sign of a broadcast flag or even CPCM being shoe horned into either
the DSO or HD roll out.

a

On Fri, Sep 18, 2009 at 10:17 AM, Brian Butterworth
 wrote:
> Freeview+ is the name of the Freeview PVR/DVR.  Freeview HD will be called,
> Freeview HD.
>
> 2009/9/17 Ant Miller 
>>
>> Freeview and freeview+ (as the DVB-T2 carried HD mux is to be called)
>> will exist in parallel- the number of muxes will drop from 6 to 5, one
>> will go to DVB-t2, the other 4 will up their capacity with a little
>> tweak and reshuffled channels from the flipped mux will be shared
>> around them.  The New mux will be a part of the main digital switch
>> over process from the Granada switch onwards, with advance broadcasts
>> in enough areas to make HD a possible service for a decent majority of
>> the population by the time of the World Cup.
>>
>> Yes, by the middle of next year, a very large part of the UK TV
>> audience will have the option to buy kit that will let them watch HD
>> over terrestrial digital broadcast at home using their existing TV
>> ariel.  The bandwidth is moderate- improvements in carrier (256 QAM)
>> and video compression (h.264) have given the broadcasters about 50%
>> more capacity for a given bit of spectrum.
>>
>> Keeping audiences happy as DSO happens and Freeview+ rolls out is a
>> critical task, and one that a phenomenal amount of effort is going
>> onto- in fact the whole DVB-T2 story is one of incredibly good AND
>> quick research, development and engineering, driven along by
>> frighteningly tight regulatory deadlines.  To be honest, slotting
>> additional DRM requirements at this stage looks like adding a horrid
>> additional complication to an already mind bending engineering
>> challenge, and perhaps more importantly, could break the delicate
>> public trust the roll-out depends upon.
>>
>> All of the above is based on my personnal opinion and understanding
>> based on public domain discussions, especially from the IBC conference
>> last week.  It is not the BBC's official possition.
>>
>> a
>>
>> On Thu, Sep 17, 2009 at 4:48 PM, Frankie Roberto
>>  wrote:
>> >
>> > 2009/9/17 Christopher Woods 
>> >
>> >> Moreover, you just *know* that within months of any broadcast flag
>> >> implementation, the more creative technological tinkerers will have
>> >> subverted the flag entirely using commonplace/free equipment and
>> >> software.
>> >> Like region coding, broadcast flags really are an exercise in stupidity
>> >> and
>> >> corporate backslapping.
>> >
>> > By the sounds of it, the main 'enforcement' mechanism of the metadata
>> > compression/encryption isn't so much technological, as the fact that you
>> > won't be able to use the "Freeview HD" logo, or be listed on the
>> > Freeview
>> > website, without signing for a free licence (which requires you to
>> > implement
>> > some as-yet-unspecified restrictions). Which won't really stop free
>> > software
>> > from existing - but may stop it from being a commercial success.
>> >
>> > That said, I wonder how many people will really bother to upgrade from
>> > Freeview to Freeview HD anyway - standard definition Freeview seems good
>> > enough for most people (especially those with non-enormous tellies). So
>> > the
>> > migration to Freeview HD will happen slowly, as people upgrade their
>> > televisions as part of their natural lifecycle. (Assuming that the
>> > signal
>> > doesn't get switched off).
>> >
>> > Frankie
>> >
>> > --
>> > Frankie Roberto
>> > Experience Designer, Rattle
>> > 0114 2706977
>> > http://www.rattlecentral.com
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Ant Miller
>>
>> tel: 07709 265961
>> email: ant.mil...@gmail.com
>> -
>> Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group.  To unsubscribe, please
>> visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html.
>>  Unofficial list archive:
>> http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
>
>
>
> --
>
> Brian Butterworth
>
> follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/briantist
> web: http://www.ukfree.tv - independent digital television and switchover
> advice, since 2002
>



-- 
Ant Miller

tel: 07709 265961
email: ant.mil...@gmail.com

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Re: [backstage] Re: Freeview HD vs existing "HDMI upscaling" freeview boxes (was RE: [backstage] License to Kill Innovation: the Broadcast Flag for UK Digital TV?)

[Brian Butterworth]

Simon,
I might be wrong, but I'm sure that when you put in the parameters that are
being used in the UK for DVB-T2 you get 30Mbps of post-error corrected data.
 It's quite possible that they have changed the parameters to provide
36Mbps, but my understanding was that 30Mbps is what you will get to get the
"correct" 98.5% coverage.

I'm quite happy to be wrong about this, but I would like more proof than
Wikipedia...

It my experience that people talk up bitrates in the same way that they do
hard drive sizes.  Being an old hand in broadcast data transmission, I
always use 2^10 for my "k" and 2^20 for my "M" and so on. Other people use
10^3 and 10^6 and this effects the result...

2009/9/18 Simon Thompson 

> Last time I checked the Blue book it didn't mention bitrates:
> http://www.dvb.org/technology/standards/a122r1.tm3980r7.DVB-T2.pdf
>
> And the last time I saw the chairman of the DVB-T2 technical module
> speaking he mentioned 36 Mbps:
>
>
>
> 2009/9/18 Brian Butterworth 
>
>> Wikipedia is wrong (that's a suprise).  The carrying capacity is 30Mbps,
>> according to the specification.
>>
>> 2009/9/18 Simon Thompson 
>>
>> 30 Mbps is a bit of a low estimate for T2.
>>>
>>> Wikipedia suggests at least 35.
>>>
>>> 2009/9/18 Brian Butterworth 
>>>
>>> Briefly, DVB-T2 uses MPEG4 delivered in a 30Mbps (compare 18Mbps and
 24Mps) multiplex using 256QAM (compared with 16QAM and 64QAM) with LDPC/BCH
 error correction (not FEC)  and 32k carriers (compare 2k and 8k).
 http://www.ukfree.tv/fullstory.php?storyid=1107051377

 Basically, this is not a software upgrade!

 2009/9/17 Brendan Quinn 

 Alan wrote:
> > I assume my topfield HD will be out of date with these proposed
> > changes?
>
> Ant replied:
> > You'll need to retune, but the services you currently get on Freeview
> > should still be available.  Think of Freeview + as an optional
> > upgrade.
>
> To which Alun wrote:
> > I meant in terms of the HD element if they are changing the spec?  If
> there is a
> > decryption requirement I doubt the Topfield will have it?
>
> I would say you're right, your box wont' receive HD freeview signals.
> But that's not (only) because of any encryption, it's because the spec
> for encoding HD over freeview [1] was only agreed last week and the
> first box was announced five days ago, to be released "in the first
> half
> of 2010":
>
>
> http://www.broadbandtvnews.com/2009/09/12/pace-unveils-dvb-t2-freeview-h
> d-box/
>
> I guess you have this box [2]:
>
>
> http://www.topfield.co.uk/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=1
> 0&catid=2&Itemid=3
>
> It uses "HDMI upscaling" to work with your HD TV. But it's not actually
> processing the real freeview HD signal and never can -- your box needs
> different chips to be able to do that. So to actually see Freeview HD
> in
> HD, you will need to buy a new box :-(
>
> HTH,
>
> Brendan.
> [1] known as DVB-T2. The DVB are the standards committee for most TV
> standards in Europe, India, Australia etc. The BBC is a member. DVB-T
> was the standard for regular freeview, so DVB-T2 is the standard for
> next-gen freeview: the "T" is for terrestrial. You can guess that DVB-C
> is for cable and DVB-S is for satellite... They also have C2 and S2
> standards for HD over those platforms.
> [2] URL edited for brevity -- yes it was much longer than that before
> --
> but it seems to work...
>
> -
> Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group.  To unsubscribe,
> please visit
> http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html.
>  Unofficial list archive:
> http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
>



 --

 Brian Butterworth

 follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/briantist
 web: http://www.ukfree.tv - independent digital television and
 switchover advice, since 2002

>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Simon Thompson
>>> GMAIL Account
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>>
>> Brian Butterworth
>>
>> follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/briantist
>> web: http://www.ukfree.tv - independent digital television and switchover
>> advice, since 2002
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Simon Thompson
> GMAIL Account
>



-- 

Brian Butterworth

follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/briantist
web: http://www.ukfree.tv - independent digital television and switchover
advice, since 2002

Re: [backstage] License to Kill Innovation: the Broadcast Flag for UK Digital TV?

[Simon Thompson]

Poor choice of words by me.

Multiplex B is having the SD channels removed from it and is being converted
to MPEG4 part 10 and DVB-T2 to allow HD channels to be transmitted.

2009/9/18 Brian Butterworth 

> Multiplex B aka PSB3 aka BBCB is not VACATED by the BBC, BBC FTV Ltd still
> owns the multiplex.   It is being used for Freeview HD carrying three (soon
> four) public service HD channels.
>
> 2009/9/17 Simon Thompson 
>
> Ofcom is going to use Multiplex B (vacated by the BBC) to provide DVB-T2 HD
>> services.  First region on air is Granada later this year.
>>
>> 2009/9/17 Alun Rowe 
>>
>>
>>>  Will we ever see HD freeview though?  The bandwidth requirement would
>>> be enormous.
>>>
>>>
>>> On 17 Sep 2009, at 16:53, "Frankie Roberto" 
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> 2009/9/17 Christopher Woods < 
>>> chris...@infinitus.co.uk>
>>>
>>>  Moreover, you just *know* that within months of any broadcast flag
 implementation, the more creative technological tinkerers will have
 subverted the flag entirely using commonplace/free equipment and software.
 Like region coding, broadcast flags really are an exercise in stupidity and
 corporate backslapping.

>>>
>>> By the sounds of it, the main 'enforcement' mechanism of the metadata
>>> compression/encryption isn't so much technological, as the fact that you
>>> won't be able to use the "Freeview HD" logo, or be listed on the Freeview
>>> website, without signing for a free licence (which requires you to implement
>>> some as-yet-unspecified restrictions). Which won't really stop free software
>>> from existing - but may stop it from being a commercial success.
>>>
>>> That said, I wonder how many people will really bother to upgrade from
>>> Freeview to Freeview HD anyway - standard definition Freeview seems good
>>> enough for most people (especially those with non-enormous tellies). So the
>>> migration to Freeview HD will happen slowly, as people upgrade their
>>> televisions as part of their natural lifecycle. (Assuming that the signal
>>> doesn't get switched off).
>>>
>>> Frankie
>>>
>>> --
>>> Frankie Roberto
>>> Experience Designer, Rattle
>>> 0114 2706977
>>> http://www.rattlecentral.com
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> This message (and any associated files) is intended only for the use of
>>> the individual or entity to which it is addressed and may contain
>>> information that is confidential, subject to copyright or constitutes a
>>> trade secret. If you are not the intended recipient you are hereby notified
>>> that any dissemination, copying or distribution of this message, or files
>>> associated with this message, is strictly prohibited. If you have received
>>> this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying to the
>>> message and deleting it from your computer. Messages sent to and from us may
>>> be monitored.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Internet communications cannot be guaranteed to be secure or error-free
>>> as information could be intercepted, corrupted, lost, destroyed, arrive late
>>> or incomplete, or contain viruses. Therefore, we do not accept
>>> responsibility for any errors or omissions that are present in this message,
>>> or any attachment, that have arisen as a result of e-mail transmission. If
>>> verification is required, please request a hard-copy version. Any views or
>>> opinions presented are solely those of the author and do not necessarily
>>> represent those of the company.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>  *Alun Rowe*
>>>
>>> *Pentangle Internet Limited*
>>>
>>> 2 Buttermarket
>>>
>>> Thame
>>>
>>> Oxfordshire
>>>
>>> OX9 3EW
>>>
>>> Tel: +44 8700 339905
>>>
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>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Simon Thompson
>> GMAIL Account
>>
>
>
>
> --
>
> Brian Butterworth
>
> follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/briantist
> web: http://www.ukfree.tv - independent digital television and switchover
> advice, since 2002
>



-- 
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GMAIL Account

Re: [backstage] Re: Freeview HD vs existing "HDMI upscaling" freeview boxes (was RE: [backstage] License to Kill Innovation: the Broadcast Flag for UK Digital TV?)

[Simon Thompson]

Last time I checked the Blue book it didn't mention bitrates:
http://www.dvb.org/technology/standards/a122r1.tm3980r7.DVB-T2.pdf

And the last time I saw the chairman of the DVB-T2 technical module speaking
he mentioned 36 Mbps:



2009/9/18 Brian Butterworth 

> Wikipedia is wrong (that's a suprise).  The carrying capacity is 30Mbps,
> according to the specification.
>
> 2009/9/18 Simon Thompson 
>
> 30 Mbps is a bit of a low estimate for T2.
>>
>> Wikipedia suggests at least 35.
>>
>> 2009/9/18 Brian Butterworth 
>>
>> Briefly, DVB-T2 uses MPEG4 delivered in a 30Mbps (compare 18Mbps and
>>> 24Mps) multiplex using 256QAM (compared with 16QAM and 64QAM) with LDPC/BCH
>>> error correction (not FEC)  and 32k carriers (compare 2k and 8k).
>>> http://www.ukfree.tv/fullstory.php?storyid=1107051377
>>>
>>> Basically, this is not a software upgrade!
>>>
>>> 2009/9/17 Brendan Quinn 
>>>
>>> Alan wrote:
 > I assume my topfield HD will be out of date with these proposed
 > changes?

 Ant replied:
 > You'll need to retune, but the services you currently get on Freeview
 > should still be available.  Think of Freeview + as an optional
 > upgrade.

 To which Alun wrote:
 > I meant in terms of the HD element if they are changing the spec?  If
 there is a
 > decryption requirement I doubt the Topfield will have it?

 I would say you're right, your box wont' receive HD freeview signals.
 But that's not (only) because of any encryption, it's because the spec
 for encoding HD over freeview [1] was only agreed last week and the
 first box was announced five days ago, to be released "in the first half
 of 2010":

 http://www.broadbandtvnews.com/2009/09/12/pace-unveils-dvb-t2-freeview-h
 d-box/

 I guess you have this box [2]:

 http://www.topfield.co.uk/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=1
 0&catid=2&Itemid=3

 It uses "HDMI upscaling" to work with your HD TV. But it's not actually
 processing the real freeview HD signal and never can -- your box needs
 different chips to be able to do that. So to actually see Freeview HD in
 HD, you will need to buy a new box :-(

 HTH,

 Brendan.
 [1] known as DVB-T2. The DVB are the standards committee for most TV
 standards in Europe, India, Australia etc. The BBC is a member. DVB-T
 was the standard for regular freeview, so DVB-T2 is the standard for
 next-gen freeview: the "T" is for terrestrial. You can guess that DVB-C
 is for cable and DVB-S is for satellite... They also have C2 and S2
 standards for HD over those platforms.
 [2] URL edited for brevity -- yes it was much longer than that before --
 but it seems to work...

 -
 Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group.  To unsubscribe,
 please visit
 http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html.
  Unofficial list archive:
 http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/

>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>>
>>> Brian Butterworth
>>>
>>> follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/briantist
>>> web: http://www.ukfree.tv - independent digital television and
>>> switchover advice, since 2002
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Simon Thompson
>> GMAIL Account
>>
>
>
>
> --
>
> Brian Butterworth
>
> follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/briantist
> web: http://www.ukfree.tv - independent digital television and switchover
> advice, since 2002
>



-- 
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GMAIL Account

Re: [backstage] Re: Freeview HD vs existing "HDMI upscaling" freeview boxes (was RE: [backstage] License to Kill Innovation: the Broadcast Flag for UK Digital TV?)

[Phil Lewis]

On Fri, 2009-09-18 at 09:54 +0100, Frankie Roberto wrote:
> ...
> If only I could stream BBC iPlayer direct to my TV via my Apple TV
> box, I wouldn't really ever need a Freeview HD box.

I have created an iPlayer streaming proxy for Unix/Linux/OSX/Win32 to do
just this. Not actually tried it with an Apple TV box (I don't own one)
but it does stream mov, flv, mp3, aac from iPlayer flash programmes,
local files and BBC live TV/radio streams. google for 'Web PVR
Manager'. 

Specifically look at the README for examples of how to create dynamic
M3U iPlayer playlists and streaming URLs based on programme
names/episodes etc.

I also use it to browse and stream the flash AAC live radio and
listen-again (mp3,aac,real) streams to my Squeezebox and it works a
treat :-)

- P

> Frankie
> 
> -- 
> Frankie Roberto
> Experience Designer, Rattle
> 0114 2706977
> http://www.rattlecentral.com
> 

-
Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group.  To unsubscribe, please 
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Re: [backstage] Re: Freeview HD vs existing "HDMI upscaling" freeview boxes (was RE: [backstage] License to Kill Innovation: the Broadcast Flag for UK Digital TV?)

[Brian Butterworth]

Wikipedia is wrong (that's a suprise).  The carrying capacity is 30Mbps,
according to the specification.

2009/9/18 Simon Thompson 

> 30 Mbps is a bit of a low estimate for T2.
>
> Wikipedia suggests at least 35.
>
> 2009/9/18 Brian Butterworth 
>
> Briefly, DVB-T2 uses MPEG4 delivered in a 30Mbps (compare 18Mbps and 24Mps)
>> multiplex using 256QAM (compared with 16QAM and 64QAM) with LDPC/BCH error
>> correction (not FEC)  and 32k carriers (compare 2k and 8k).
>> http://www.ukfree.tv/fullstory.php?storyid=1107051377
>>
>> Basically, this is not a software upgrade!
>>
>> 2009/9/17 Brendan Quinn 
>>
>> Alan wrote:
>>> > I assume my topfield HD will be out of date with these proposed
>>> > changes?
>>>
>>> Ant replied:
>>> > You'll need to retune, but the services you currently get on Freeview
>>> > should still be available.  Think of Freeview + as an optional
>>> > upgrade.
>>>
>>> To which Alun wrote:
>>> > I meant in terms of the HD element if they are changing the spec?  If
>>> there is a
>>> > decryption requirement I doubt the Topfield will have it?
>>>
>>> I would say you're right, your box wont' receive HD freeview signals.
>>> But that's not (only) because of any encryption, it's because the spec
>>> for encoding HD over freeview [1] was only agreed last week and the
>>> first box was announced five days ago, to be released "in the first half
>>> of 2010":
>>>
>>> http://www.broadbandtvnews.com/2009/09/12/pace-unveils-dvb-t2-freeview-h
>>> d-box/
>>>
>>> I guess you have this box [2]:
>>>
>>> http://www.topfield.co.uk/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=1
>>> 0&catid=2&Itemid=3
>>>
>>> It uses "HDMI upscaling" to work with your HD TV. But it's not actually
>>> processing the real freeview HD signal and never can -- your box needs
>>> different chips to be able to do that. So to actually see Freeview HD in
>>> HD, you will need to buy a new box :-(
>>>
>>> HTH,
>>>
>>> Brendan.
>>> [1] known as DVB-T2. The DVB are the standards committee for most TV
>>> standards in Europe, India, Australia etc. The BBC is a member. DVB-T
>>> was the standard for regular freeview, so DVB-T2 is the standard for
>>> next-gen freeview: the "T" is for terrestrial. You can guess that DVB-C
>>> is for cable and DVB-S is for satellite... They also have C2 and S2
>>> standards for HD over those platforms.
>>> [2] URL edited for brevity -- yes it was much longer than that before --
>>> but it seems to work...
>>>
>>> -
>>> Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group.  To unsubscribe,
>>> please visit
>>> http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html.
>>>  Unofficial list archive:
>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>>
>> Brian Butterworth
>>
>> follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/briantist
>> web: http://www.ukfree.tv - independent digital television and switchover
>> advice, since 2002
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Simon Thompson
> GMAIL Account
>



-- 

Brian Butterworth

follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/briantist
web: http://www.ukfree.tv - independent digital television and switchover
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Re: [backstage] License to Kill Innovation: the Broadcast Flag for UK Digital TV?

[Brian Butterworth]

Multiplex B aka PSB3 aka BBCB is not VACATED by the BBC, BBC FTV Ltd still
owns the multiplex.   It is being used for Freeview HD carrying three (soon
four) public service HD channels.

2009/9/17 Simon Thompson 

> Ofcom is going to use Multiplex B (vacated by the BBC) to provide DVB-T2 HD
> services.  First region on air is Granada later this year.
>
> 2009/9/17 Alun Rowe 
>
>
>>  Will we ever see HD freeview though?  The bandwidth requirement would be
>> enormous.
>>
>>
>> On 17 Sep 2009, at 16:53, "Frankie Roberto" 
>> wrote:
>>
>>
>> 2009/9/17 Christopher Woods < 
>> chris...@infinitus.co.uk>
>>
>>  Moreover, you just *know* that within months of any broadcast flag
>>> implementation, the more creative technological tinkerers will have
>>> subverted the flag entirely using commonplace/free equipment and software.
>>> Like region coding, broadcast flags really are an exercise in stupidity and
>>> corporate backslapping.
>>>
>>
>> By the sounds of it, the main 'enforcement' mechanism of the metadata
>> compression/encryption isn't so much technological, as the fact that you
>> won't be able to use the "Freeview HD" logo, or be listed on the Freeview
>> website, without signing for a free licence (which requires you to implement
>> some as-yet-unspecified restrictions). Which won't really stop free software
>> from existing - but may stop it from being a commercial success.
>>
>> That said, I wonder how many people will really bother to upgrade from
>> Freeview to Freeview HD anyway - standard definition Freeview seems good
>> enough for most people (especially those with non-enormous tellies). So the
>> migration to Freeview HD will happen slowly, as people upgrade their
>> televisions as part of their natural lifecycle. (Assuming that the signal
>> doesn't get switched off).
>>
>> Frankie
>>
>> --
>> Frankie Roberto
>> Experience Designer, Rattle
>> 0114 2706977
>> http://www.rattlecentral.com
>>
>>
>>
>> This message (and any associated files) is intended only for the use of
>> the individual or entity to which it is addressed and may contain
>> information that is confidential, subject to copyright or constitutes a
>> trade secret. If you are not the intended recipient you are hereby notified
>> that any dissemination, copying or distribution of this message, or files
>> associated with this message, is strictly prohibited. If you have received
>> this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying to the
>> message and deleting it from your computer. Messages sent to and from us may
>> be monitored.
>>
>>
>>
>> Internet communications cannot be guaranteed to be secure or error-free as
>> information could be intercepted, corrupted, lost, destroyed, arrive late or
>> incomplete, or contain viruses. Therefore, we do not accept responsibility
>> for any errors or omissions that are present in this message, or any
>> attachment, that have arisen as a result of e-mail transmission. If
>> verification is required, please request a hard-copy version. Any views or
>> opinions presented are solely those of the author and do not necessarily
>> represent those of the company.
>>
>>
>>
>>  *Alun Rowe*
>>
>> *Pentangle Internet Limited*
>>
>> 2 Buttermarket
>>
>> Thame
>>
>> Oxfordshire
>>
>> OX9 3EW
>>
>> Tel: +44 8700 339905
>>
>> Fax: +44 8700 339906
>> *Please direct all support requests to 
>> **it-supp...@pentangle.co.uk*
>>
>> Pentangle Internet Limited is a limited company registered in England and
>> Wales. Registered number: 3960918. Registered office: 1 Lauras Close, Great
>> Staughton, Cambridgeshire PE19 5DP
>>
>
>
>
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> GMAIL Account
>



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web: http://www.ukfree.tv - independent digital television and switchover
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Re: [backstage] License to Kill Innovation: the Broadcast Flag for UK Digital TV?

[Brian Butterworth]

Please see
http://www.ukfree.tv/fullstory.php?storyid=1107051316

and

http://www.ukfree.tv/fullstory.php?storyid=1107051377

and  (for dates)

http://www.ukfree.tv/fullstory.php?storyid=1107051590

2009/9/17 Alun Rowe 

>
>  Will we ever see HD freeview though?  The bandwidth requirement would be
> enormous.
>
>
> On 17 Sep 2009, at 16:53, "Frankie Roberto" 
> wrote:
>
>
> 2009/9/17 Christopher Woods < 
> chris...@infinitus.co.uk>
>
>  Moreover, you just *know* that within months of any broadcast flag
>> implementation, the more creative technological tinkerers will have
>> subverted the flag entirely using commonplace/free equipment and software.
>> Like region coding, broadcast flags really are an exercise in stupidity and
>> corporate backslapping.
>>
>
> By the sounds of it, the main 'enforcement' mechanism of the metadata
> compression/encryption isn't so much technological, as the fact that you
> won't be able to use the "Freeview HD" logo, or be listed on the Freeview
> website, without signing for a free licence (which requires you to implement
> some as-yet-unspecified restrictions). Which won't really stop free software
> from existing - but may stop it from being a commercial success.
>
> That said, I wonder how many people will really bother to upgrade from
> Freeview to Freeview HD anyway - standard definition Freeview seems good
> enough for most people (especially those with non-enormous tellies). So the
> migration to Freeview HD will happen slowly, as people upgrade their
> televisions as part of their natural lifecycle. (Assuming that the signal
> doesn't get switched off).
>
> Frankie
>
> --
> Frankie Roberto
> Experience Designer, Rattle
> 0114 2706977
> http://www.rattlecentral.com
>
>
>
> This message (and any associated files) is intended only for the use of the
> individual or entity to which it is addressed and may contain information
> that is confidential, subject to copyright or constitutes a trade secret. If
> you are not the intended recipient you are hereby notified that any
> dissemination, copying or distribution of this message, or files associated
> with this message, is strictly prohibited. If you have received this message
> in error, please notify us immediately by replying to the message and
> deleting it from your computer. Messages sent to and from us may be
> monitored.
>
>
>
> Internet communications cannot be guaranteed to be secure or error-free as
> information could be intercepted, corrupted, lost, destroyed, arrive late or
> incomplete, or contain viruses. Therefore, we do not accept responsibility
> for any errors or omissions that are present in this message, or any
> attachment, that have arisen as a result of e-mail transmission. If
> verification is required, please request a hard-copy version. Any views or
> opinions presented are solely those of the author and do not necessarily
> represent those of the company.
>
>
>
>  *Alun Rowe*
>
> *Pentangle Internet Limited*
>
> 2 Buttermarket
>
> Thame
>
> Oxfordshire
>
> OX9 3EW
>
> Tel: +44 8700 339905
>
> Fax: +44 8700 339906
> *Please direct all support requests to 
> **it-supp...@pentangle.co.uk*
>
> Pentangle Internet Limited is a limited company registered in England and
> Wales. Registered number: 3960918. Registered office: 1 Lauras Close, Great
> Staughton, Cambridgeshire PE19 5DP
>



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Re: [backstage] License to Kill Innovation: the Broadcast Flag for UK Digital TV?

[Brian Butterworth]

Freeview+ is the name of the Freeview PVR/DVR.  Freeview HD will be called,
Freeview HD.

2009/9/17 Ant Miller 

> Freeview and freeview+ (as the DVB-T2 carried HD mux is to be called)
> will exist in parallel- the number of muxes will drop from 6 to 5, one
> will go to DVB-t2, the other 4 will up their capacity with a little
> tweak and reshuffled channels from the flipped mux will be shared
> around them.  The New mux will be a part of the main digital switch
> over process from the Granada switch onwards, with advance broadcasts
> in enough areas to make HD a possible service for a decent majority of
> the population by the time of the World Cup.
>
> Yes, by the middle of next year, a very large part of the UK TV
> audience will have the option to buy kit that will let them watch HD
> over terrestrial digital broadcast at home using their existing TV
> ariel.  The bandwidth is moderate- improvements in carrier (256 QAM)
> and video compression (h.264) have given the broadcasters about 50%
> more capacity for a given bit of spectrum.
>
> Keeping audiences happy as DSO happens and Freeview+ rolls out is a
> critical task, and one that a phenomenal amount of effort is going
> onto- in fact the whole DVB-T2 story is one of incredibly good AND
> quick research, development and engineering, driven along by
> frighteningly tight regulatory deadlines.  To be honest, slotting
> additional DRM requirements at this stage looks like adding a horrid
> additional complication to an already mind bending engineering
> challenge, and perhaps more importantly, could break the delicate
> public trust the roll-out depends upon.
>
> All of the above is based on my personnal opinion and understanding
> based on public domain discussions, especially from the IBC conference
> last week.  It is not the BBC's official possition.
>
> a
>
> On Thu, Sep 17, 2009 at 4:48 PM, Frankie Roberto
>  wrote:
> >
> > 2009/9/17 Christopher Woods 
> >
> >> Moreover, you just *know* that within months of any broadcast flag
> >> implementation, the more creative technological tinkerers will have
> >> subverted the flag entirely using commonplace/free equipment and
> software.
> >> Like region coding, broadcast flags really are an exercise in stupidity
> and
> >> corporate backslapping.
> >
> > By the sounds of it, the main 'enforcement' mechanism of the metadata
> > compression/encryption isn't so much technological, as the fact that you
> > won't be able to use the "Freeview HD" logo, or be listed on the Freeview
> > website, without signing for a free licence (which requires you to
> implement
> > some as-yet-unspecified restrictions). Which won't really stop free
> software
> > from existing - but may stop it from being a commercial success.
> >
> > That said, I wonder how many people will really bother to upgrade from
> > Freeview to Freeview HD anyway - standard definition Freeview seems good
> > enough for most people (especially those with non-enormous tellies). So
> the
> > migration to Freeview HD will happen slowly, as people upgrade their
> > televisions as part of their natural lifecycle. (Assuming that the signal
> > doesn't get switched off).
> >
> > Frankie
> >
> > --
> > Frankie Roberto
> > Experience Designer, Rattle
> > 0114 2706977
> > http://www.rattlecentral.com
> >
> >
>
>
>
> --
> Ant Miller
>
> tel: 07709 265961
> email: ant.mil...@gmail.com
> -
> Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group.  To unsubscribe, please
> visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html.
>  Unofficial list archive:
> http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
>



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advice, since 2002

Re: [backstage] Re: Freeview HD vs existing "HDMI upscaling" freeview boxes (was RE: [backstage] License to Kill Innovation: the Broadcast Flag for UK Digital TV?)

[Simon Thompson]

30 Mbps is a bit of a low estimate for T2.

Wikipedia suggests at least 35.

2009/9/18 Brian Butterworth 

> Briefly, DVB-T2 uses MPEG4 delivered in a 30Mbps (compare 18Mbps and 24Mps)
> multiplex using 256QAM (compared with 16QAM and 64QAM) with LDPC/BCH error
> correction (not FEC)  and 32k carriers (compare 2k and 8k).
> http://www.ukfree.tv/fullstory.php?storyid=1107051377
>
> Basically, this is not a software upgrade!
>
> 2009/9/17 Brendan Quinn 
>
> Alan wrote:
>> > I assume my topfield HD will be out of date with these proposed
>> > changes?
>>
>> Ant replied:
>> > You'll need to retune, but the services you currently get on Freeview
>> > should still be available.  Think of Freeview + as an optional
>> > upgrade.
>>
>> To which Alun wrote:
>> > I meant in terms of the HD element if they are changing the spec?  If
>> there is a
>> > decryption requirement I doubt the Topfield will have it?
>>
>> I would say you're right, your box wont' receive HD freeview signals.
>> But that's not (only) because of any encryption, it's because the spec
>> for encoding HD over freeview [1] was only agreed last week and the
>> first box was announced five days ago, to be released "in the first half
>> of 2010":
>>
>> http://www.broadbandtvnews.com/2009/09/12/pace-unveils-dvb-t2-freeview-h
>> d-box/
>>
>> I guess you have this box [2]:
>>
>> http://www.topfield.co.uk/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=1
>> 0&catid=2&Itemid=3
>>
>> It uses "HDMI upscaling" to work with your HD TV. But it's not actually
>> processing the real freeview HD signal and never can -- your box needs
>> different chips to be able to do that. So to actually see Freeview HD in
>> HD, you will need to buy a new box :-(
>>
>> HTH,
>>
>> Brendan.
>> [1] known as DVB-T2. The DVB are the standards committee for most TV
>> standards in Europe, India, Australia etc. The BBC is a member. DVB-T
>> was the standard for regular freeview, so DVB-T2 is the standard for
>> next-gen freeview: the "T" is for terrestrial. You can guess that DVB-C
>> is for cable and DVB-S is for satellite... They also have C2 and S2
>> standards for HD over those platforms.
>> [2] URL edited for brevity -- yes it was much longer than that before --
>> but it seems to work...
>>
>> -
>> Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group.  To unsubscribe,
>> please visit
>> http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html.
>>  Unofficial list archive:
>> http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
>>
>
>
>
> --
>
> Brian Butterworth
>
> follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/briantist
> web: http://www.ukfree.tv - independent digital television and switchover
> advice, since 2002
>



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GMAIL Account

RE: [backstage] License to Kill Innovation: the Broadcast Flag for UK Digital TV?

[Andrew Bowden]

> Cynically, who wants to guess what proportion of "HD Ready" TV owners
> a) think they're already watching HD content on Freeview

Probably a similar amount to those who have boxes set to 4:3 centre cut
out, which is then stretched to 16:9 by their TV :(


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[backstage] Re: Freeview HD vs existing "HDMI upscaling" freeview boxes (was RE: [backstage] License to Kill Innovation: the Broadcast Flag for UK Digital TV?)

[Frankie Roberto]

2009/9/17 Brendan Quinn 

> Alan wrote:
> > I assume my topfield HD will be out of date with these proposed
> > changes?
>
> Ant replied:
> > You'll need to retune, but the services you currently get on Freeview
> > should still be available.  Think of Freeview + as an optional
> > upgrade.
>
> To which Alun wrote:
> > I meant in terms of the HD element if they are changing the spec?  If
> there is a
> > decryption requirement I doubt the Topfield will have it?
>
> I guess you have this box [2]:
>
> http://www.topfield.co.uk/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=1
> 0&catid=2&Itemid=3
>

I have an even older Topfield PVR, which doesn't even have an HDMI output
(just scart), so that's guaranteed never to be upgradeable.

On the other hand though, standard definition freeview looks good enough on
my telly, plus I can record hours and hours worth of programmes, and even
download them to a computer via a USB cable (admittedly, this takes ages)
and re-encode to fit on an iPhone/iPod touch (requires buying an MPEG2
encoder licence for Quicktime) - all legally (though an absolute faff).

If only I could stream BBC iPlayer direct to my TV via my Apple TV box, I
wouldn't really ever need a Freeview HD box.

Frankie

-- 
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Experience Designer, Rattle
0114 2706977
http://www.rattlecentral.com

[backstage] Re: Freeview HD vs existing "HDMI upscaling" freeview boxes (was RE: [backstage] License to Kill Innovation: the Broadcast Flag for UK Digital TV?)

[Brian Butterworth]

Briefly, DVB-T2 uses MPEG4 delivered in a 30Mbps (compare 18Mbps and 24Mps)
multiplex using 256QAM (compared with 16QAM and 64QAM) with LDPC/BCH error
correction (not FEC)  and 32k carriers (compare 2k and 8k).
http://www.ukfree.tv/fullstory.php?storyid=1107051377

Basically, this is not a software upgrade!

2009/9/17 Brendan Quinn 

> Alan wrote:
> > I assume my topfield HD will be out of date with these proposed
> > changes?
>
> Ant replied:
> > You'll need to retune, but the services you currently get on Freeview
> > should still be available.  Think of Freeview + as an optional
> > upgrade.
>
> To which Alun wrote:
> > I meant in terms of the HD element if they are changing the spec?  If
> there is a
> > decryption requirement I doubt the Topfield will have it?
>
> I would say you're right, your box wont' receive HD freeview signals.
> But that's not (only) because of any encryption, it's because the spec
> for encoding HD over freeview [1] was only agreed last week and the
> first box was announced five days ago, to be released "in the first half
> of 2010":
>
> http://www.broadbandtvnews.com/2009/09/12/pace-unveils-dvb-t2-freeview-h
> d-box/
>
> I guess you have this box [2]:
>
> http://www.topfield.co.uk/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=1
> 0&catid=2&Itemid=3
>
> It uses "HDMI upscaling" to work with your HD TV. But it's not actually
> processing the real freeview HD signal and never can -- your box needs
> different chips to be able to do that. So to actually see Freeview HD in
> HD, you will need to buy a new box :-(
>
> HTH,
>
> Brendan.
> [1] known as DVB-T2. The DVB are the standards committee for most TV
> standards in Europe, India, Australia etc. The BBC is a member. DVB-T
> was the standard for regular freeview, so DVB-T2 is the standard for
> next-gen freeview: the "T" is for terrestrial. You can guess that DVB-C
> is for cable and DVB-S is for satellite... They also have C2 and S2
> standards for HD over those platforms.
> [2] URL edited for brevity -- yes it was much longer than that before --
> but it seems to work...
>
> -
> Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group.  To unsubscribe, please
> visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html.
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web: http://www.ukfree.tv - independent digital television and switchover
advice, since 2002

Re: [backstage] License to Kill Innovation: the Broadcast Flag for UK Digital TV?

[Nick Morrott]

On 18/09/2009, Mr I Forrester  wrote:
> On Thu, 2009-09-17 at 22:04 +0100, Scot McSweeney-Roberts wrote:
>
>  >
>  > I think that there's going to be a lot of unhappy freeview HDTV owners
>  > wondering why the TV they have recently bought isn't picking up the
>  > new HD channels when they're launched (especially as the TV was
>  > probably sold as "HD Ready").
>
> But to be fair, whos's fault is that?

Cynically, who wants to guess what proportion of "HD Ready" TV owners
a) think they're already watching HD content on Freeview, b)
understand what "HD Ready" means, and c) bought from those clever DSG
staff who could answer b)?

A small gripe, even back in 2005, but the older  "HD Ready" standard
didn't require the TV to be able to display even a native 720p frame
without horizontal scaling. More importantly for the content
producers, it did have to support HDCP...

Cheers,
Nick

-- 
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http://mythtv.org/wiki/
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RE: [backstage] License to Kill Innovation: the Broadcast Flag for UK Digital TV?

[Mr I Forrester]

On Thu, 2009-09-17 at 15:50 +0100, Christopher Woods wrote:
> Moreover, you just *know* that within months of any broadcast flag
> implementation, the more creative technological tinkerers will have
> subverted the flag entirely using commonplace/free equipment and
> software. Like region coding, broadcast flags really are an exercise
> in stupidity and corporate backslapping.
>  
> The Beeb should be pointing to what happened with the Broadcast Flag
> in the States as the perfect case study! The US TV industry hasn't
> imploded as a result of the Broadcast Flag requirement being dropped,
> and the world continues to turn in a regular fashion. Why are
> rightsholders so scared of fully engaging with technology? Metaphor of
> closing the stable door after the horse has bolted and subsequently
> gone on to win the Grand National comes to mind.
>  
>  
> Further reading
> http://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2009/06/dtv-era-no-broadcast
>  

I actually think your on to something with that case study! 

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RE: [backstage] License to Kill Innovation: the Broadcast Flag for UK Digital TV?

[Christopher Woods]

 


I think that there's going to be a lot of unhappy freeview HDTV owners
wondering why the TV they have recently bought isn't picking up the new HD
channels when they're launched (especially as the TV was probably sold as
"HD Ready"). 
 

Prime opportunity to flog another STB / CAM to correctly display broadcast
flagged content on pre-BCF-compatible displays? Do I hear the usual suspects
(Panny, Alba, Sony, Humax etc) getting in line for tender as I speak? ;)

Re: [backstage] License to Kill Innovation: the Broadcast Flag for UK Digital TV?

[Mr I Forrester]

On Thu, 2009-09-17 at 22:04 +0100, Scot McSweeney-Roberts wrote:

> 
> I think that there's going to be a lot of unhappy freeview HDTV owners
> wondering why the TV they have recently bought isn't picking up the
> new HD channels when they're launched (especially as the TV was
> probably sold as "HD Ready").
> 
> 

But to be fair, whos's fault is that?

Ian

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Re: [backstage] License to Kill Innovation: the Broadcast Flag for UK Digital TV?

[Scot McSweeney-Roberts]

On Thu, Sep 17, 2009 at 17:29, Ant Miller  wrote:

>
> Keeping audiences happy as DSO happens and Freeview+ rolls out is a
> critical task,


I think that there's going to be a lot of unhappy freeview HDTV owners
wondering why the TV they have recently bought isn't picking up the new HD
channels when they're launched (especially as the TV was probably sold as
"HD Ready").

Freeview HD vs existing "HDMI upscaling" freeview boxes (was RE: [backstage] License to Kill Innovation: the Broadcast Flag for UK Digital TV?)

[Brendan Quinn]

Alan wrote:
> I assume my topfield HD will be out of date with these proposed 
> changes?

Ant replied:
> You'll need to retune, but the services you currently get on Freeview 
> should still be available.  Think of Freeview + as an optional 
> upgrade.

To which Alun wrote:
> I meant in terms of the HD element if they are changing the spec?  If
there is a
> decryption requirement I doubt the Topfield will have it?

I would say you're right, your box wont' receive HD freeview signals.
But that's not (only) because of any encryption, it's because the spec
for encoding HD over freeview [1] was only agreed last week and the
first box was announced five days ago, to be released "in the first half
of 2010":

http://www.broadbandtvnews.com/2009/09/12/pace-unveils-dvb-t2-freeview-h
d-box/ 

I guess you have this box [2]:

http://www.topfield.co.uk/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=1
0&catid=2&Itemid=3

It uses "HDMI upscaling" to work with your HD TV. But it's not actually
processing the real freeview HD signal and never can -- your box needs
different chips to be able to do that. So to actually see Freeview HD in
HD, you will need to buy a new box :-(

HTH,

Brendan.
[1] known as DVB-T2. The DVB are the standards committee for most TV
standards in Europe, India, Australia etc. The BBC is a member. DVB-T
was the standard for regular freeview, so DVB-T2 is the standard for
next-gen freeview: the "T" is for terrestrial. You can guess that DVB-C
is for cable and DVB-S is for satellite... They also have C2 and S2
standards for HD over those platforms.
[2] URL edited for brevity -- yes it was much longer than that before --
but it seems to work...

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Re: [backstage] License to Kill Innovation: the Broadcast Flag for UK Digital TV?

[Ant Miller]

I don't know the topfield box, but it's unlikely it can decode the new
carrier mode.  h.264 it might be able to handle, but it would be a
surprise.  So no, the HD will need a new box.  Optional upgrade, not a
free upgrade!  Though the broadcast service will remain free to air.

a

On Thu, Sep 17, 2009 at 5:57 PM, Alun Rowe  wrote:
>
> I meant in terms of the HD element if they are changing the spec?  If there
> is a decryption requirement I doubt the Topfield will have it?
>
> On 17 Sep 2009, at 17:52, "Ant Miller"  wrote:
>
>> You'll need to retune, but the services you currently get on Freeview
>> should still be available.  Think of Freeview + as an optional
>> upgrade.
>>
>> a
>>
>> On Thu, Sep 17, 2009 at 5:36 PM, Alun Rowe 
>> wrote:
>>>
>>> I assume my topfield HD will be out of date with these proposed changes?
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Ant Miller
>>
>> tel: 07709 265961
>> email: ant.mil...@gmail.com
>> -
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Re: [backstage] License to Kill Innovation: the Broadcast Flag for UK Digital TV?

[Alun Rowe]

I meant in terms of the HD element if they are changing the spec?  If  
there is a decryption requirement I doubt the Topfield will have it?


On 17 Sep 2009, at 17:52, "Ant Miller"  wrote:


You'll need to retune, but the services you currently get on Freeview
should still be available.  Think of Freeview + as an optional
upgrade.

a

On Thu, Sep 17, 2009 at 5:36 PM, Alun Rowe  
 wrote:
I assume my topfield HD will be out of date with these proposed  
changes?






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Re: [backstage] License to Kill Innovation: the Broadcast Flag for UK Digital TV?

[Ant Miller]

You'll need to retune, but the services you currently get on Freeview
should still be available.  Think of Freeview + as an optional
upgrade.

a

On Thu, Sep 17, 2009 at 5:36 PM, Alun Rowe  wrote:
> I assume my topfield HD will be out of date with these proposed changes?
>



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RE: [backstage] License to Kill Innovation: the Broadcast Flag for UK Digital TV?

[Gareth Davis]

Ant Miller wrote:

> Freeview and freeview+ (as the DVB-T2 carried HD mux is to be 
> called) will exist in parallel- the number of muxes will drop 
> from 6 to 5, one will go to DVB-t2, the other 4 will up their 
> capacity with a little tweak and reshuffled channels from the 
> flipped mux will be shared around them. > 

And the shuffling starts at the end of this month. Everyone will need to
rescan their Freeview STBs and IDTVs on the 30th September.

More details here: 
http://www.freeview.co.uk/freeview/Resolutions/About-Channels/Retuning/F
reeview-national-retune-30-September-2009
... which also suggests Freeview HD in London from December this year. 

-- 
Gareth Davis | Production Systems Specialist
World Service Future Media, Digital Delivery Team - Part of BBC Global
News Division
* http://www.bbcworldservice.com/ * 500NE Bush House, Strand, London,
WC2B 4PH

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Re: [backstage] License to Kill Innovation: the Broadcast Flag for UK Digital TV?

[Simon Thompson]

Ofcom is going to use Multiplex B (vacated by the BBC) to provide DVB-T2 HD
services.  First region on air is Granada later this year.

2009/9/17 Alun Rowe 

>
>  Will we ever see HD freeview though?  The bandwidth requirement would be
> enormous.
>
>
> On 17 Sep 2009, at 16:53, "Frankie Roberto" 
> wrote:
>
>
> 2009/9/17 Christopher Woods < 
> chris...@infinitus.co.uk>
>
>  Moreover, you just *know* that within months of any broadcast flag
>> implementation, the more creative technological tinkerers will have
>> subverted the flag entirely using commonplace/free equipment and software.
>> Like region coding, broadcast flags really are an exercise in stupidity and
>> corporate backslapping.
>>
>
> By the sounds of it, the main 'enforcement' mechanism of the metadata
> compression/encryption isn't so much technological, as the fact that you
> won't be able to use the "Freeview HD" logo, or be listed on the Freeview
> website, without signing for a free licence (which requires you to implement
> some as-yet-unspecified restrictions). Which won't really stop free software
> from existing - but may stop it from being a commercial success.
>
> That said, I wonder how many people will really bother to upgrade from
> Freeview to Freeview HD anyway - standard definition Freeview seems good
> enough for most people (especially those with non-enormous tellies). So the
> migration to Freeview HD will happen slowly, as people upgrade their
> televisions as part of their natural lifecycle. (Assuming that the signal
> doesn't get switched off).
>
> Frankie
>
> --
> Frankie Roberto
> Experience Designer, Rattle
> 0114 2706977
> http://www.rattlecentral.com
>
>
>
> This message (and any associated files) is intended only for the use of the
> individual or entity to which it is addressed and may contain information
> that is confidential, subject to copyright or constitutes a trade secret. If
> you are not the intended recipient you are hereby notified that any
> dissemination, copying or distribution of this message, or files associated
> with this message, is strictly prohibited. If you have received this message
> in error, please notify us immediately by replying to the message and
> deleting it from your computer. Messages sent to and from us may be
> monitored.
>
>
>
> Internet communications cannot be guaranteed to be secure or error-free as
> information could be intercepted, corrupted, lost, destroyed, arrive late or
> incomplete, or contain viruses. Therefore, we do not accept responsibility
> for any errors or omissions that are present in this message, or any
> attachment, that have arisen as a result of e-mail transmission. If
> verification is required, please request a hard-copy version. Any views or
> opinions presented are solely those of the author and do not necessarily
> represent those of the company.
>
>
>
>  *Alun Rowe*
>
> *Pentangle Internet Limited*
>
> 2 Buttermarket
>
> Thame
>
> Oxfordshire
>
> OX9 3EW
>
> Tel: +44 8700 339905
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GMAIL Account

Re: [backstage] License to Kill Innovation: the Broadcast Flag for UK Digital TV?

[Alun Rowe]

I assume my topfield HD will be out of date with these proposed changes?

Re: [backstage] License to Kill Innovation: the Broadcast Flag for UK Digital TV?

[Ant Miller]

Freeview and freeview+ (as the DVB-T2 carried HD mux is to be called)
will exist in parallel- the number of muxes will drop from 6 to 5, one
will go to DVB-t2, the other 4 will up their capacity with a little
tweak and reshuffled channels from the flipped mux will be shared
around them.  The New mux will be a part of the main digital switch
over process from the Granada switch onwards, with advance broadcasts
in enough areas to make HD a possible service for a decent majority of
the population by the time of the World Cup.

Yes, by the middle of next year, a very large part of the UK TV
audience will have the option to buy kit that will let them watch HD
over terrestrial digital broadcast at home using their existing TV
ariel.  The bandwidth is moderate- improvements in carrier (256 QAM)
and video compression (h.264) have given the broadcasters about 50%
more capacity for a given bit of spectrum.

Keeping audiences happy as DSO happens and Freeview+ rolls out is a
critical task, and one that a phenomenal amount of effort is going
onto- in fact the whole DVB-T2 story is one of incredibly good AND
quick research, development and engineering, driven along by
frighteningly tight regulatory deadlines.  To be honest, slotting
additional DRM requirements at this stage looks like adding a horrid
additional complication to an already mind bending engineering
challenge, and perhaps more importantly, could break the delicate
public trust the roll-out depends upon.

All of the above is based on my personnal opinion and understanding
based on public domain discussions, especially from the IBC conference
last week.  It is not the BBC's official possition.

a

On Thu, Sep 17, 2009 at 4:48 PM, Frankie Roberto
 wrote:
>
> 2009/9/17 Christopher Woods 
>
>> Moreover, you just *know* that within months of any broadcast flag
>> implementation, the more creative technological tinkerers will have
>> subverted the flag entirely using commonplace/free equipment and software.
>> Like region coding, broadcast flags really are an exercise in stupidity and
>> corporate backslapping.
>
> By the sounds of it, the main 'enforcement' mechanism of the metadata
> compression/encryption isn't so much technological, as the fact that you
> won't be able to use the "Freeview HD" logo, or be listed on the Freeview
> website, without signing for a free licence (which requires you to implement
> some as-yet-unspecified restrictions). Which won't really stop free software
> from existing - but may stop it from being a commercial success.
>
> That said, I wonder how many people will really bother to upgrade from
> Freeview to Freeview HD anyway - standard definition Freeview seems good
> enough for most people (especially those with non-enormous tellies). So the
> migration to Freeview HD will happen slowly, as people upgrade their
> televisions as part of their natural lifecycle. (Assuming that the signal
> doesn't get switched off).
>
> Frankie
>
> --
> Frankie Roberto
> Experience Designer, Rattle
> 0114 2706977
> http://www.rattlecentral.com
>
>



-- 
Ant Miller

tel: 07709 265961
email: ant.mil...@gmail.com
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Re: [backstage] License to Kill Innovation: the Broadcast Flag for UK Digital TV?

[Alun Rowe]

Will we ever see HD freeview though?  The bandwidth requirement would  
be enormous.


On 17 Sep 2009, at 16:53, "Frankie Roberto"  
 wrote:




2009/9/17 Christopher Woods 

Moreover, you just *know* that within months of any broadcast flag  
implementation, the more creative technological tinkerers will have  
subverted the flag entirely using commonplace/free equipment and  
software. Like region coding, broadcast flags really are an exercise  
in stupidity and corporate backslapping.


By the sounds of it, the main 'enforcement' mechanism of the  
metadata compression/encryption isn't so much technological, as the  
fact that you won't be able to use the "Freeview HD" logo, or be  
listed on the Freeview website, without signing for a free licence  
(which requires you to implement some as-yet-unspecified  
restrictions). Which won't really stop free software from existing -  
but may stop it from being a commercial success.


That said, I wonder how many people will really bother to upgrade  
from Freeview to Freeview HD anyway - standard definition Freeview  
seems good enough for most people (especially those with non- 
enormous tellies). So the migration to Freeview HD will happen  
slowly, as people upgrade their televisions as part of their natural  
lifecycle. (Assuming that the signal doesn't get switched off).


Frankie

--
Frankie Roberto
Experience Designer, Rattle
0114 2706977
http://www.rattlecentral.com



This message (and any associated files) is intended only for the use  
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constitutes a trade secret. If you are not the intended recipient  
you are hereby notified that any dissemination, copying or  
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is strictly prohibited. If you have received this message in error,  
please notify us immediately by replying to the message and deleting  
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Internet communications cannot be guaranteed to be secure or error- 
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Alun Rowe
Pentangle Internet Limited
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Oxfordshire
OX9 3EW
Tel: +44 8700 339905
Fax: +44 8700 339906
Please direct all support requests to mailto:it-supp...@pentangle.co.uk 
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Re: [backstage] License to Kill Innovation: the Broadcast Flag for UK Digital TV?

[Frankie Roberto]

2009/9/17 Christopher Woods 

 Moreover, you just *know* that within months of any broadcast flag
> implementation, the more creative technological tinkerers will have
> subverted the flag entirely using commonplace/free equipment and software.
> Like region coding, broadcast flags really are an exercise in stupidity and
> corporate backslapping.
>

By the sounds of it, the main 'enforcement' mechanism of the metadata
compression/encryption isn't so much technological, as the fact that you
won't be able to use the "Freeview HD" logo, or be listed on the Freeview
website, without signing for a free licence (which requires you to implement
some as-yet-unspecified restrictions). Which won't really stop free software
from existing - but may stop it from being a commercial success.

That said, I wonder how many people will really bother to upgrade from
Freeview to Freeview HD anyway - standard definition Freeview seems good
enough for most people (especially those with non-enormous tellies). So the
migration to Freeview HD will happen slowly, as people upgrade their
televisions as part of their natural lifecycle. (Assuming that the signal
doesn't get switched off).

Frankie

-- 
Frankie Roberto
Experience Designer, Rattle
0114 2706977
http://www.rattlecentral.com

RE: [backstage] License to Kill Innovation: the Broadcast Flag for UK Digital TV?

[Christopher Woods]

Moreover, you just *know* that within months of any broadcast flag
implementation, the more creative technological tinkerers will have
subverted the flag entirely using commonplace/free equipment and software.
Like region coding, broadcast flags really are an exercise in stupidity and
corporate backslapping.
 
The Beeb should be pointing to what happened with the Broadcast Flag in the
States as the perfect case study! The US TV industry hasn't imploded as a
result of the Broadcast Flag requirement being dropped, and the world
continues to turn in a regular fashion. Why are rightsholders so scared of
fully engaging with technology? Metaphor of closing the stable door after
the horse has bolted and subsequently gone on to win the Grand National
comes to mind.
 
 
Further reading
http://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2009/06/dtv-era-no-broadcast
 

Re: [backstage] License to Kill Innovation: the Broadcast Flag for UK Digital TV?

[Frankie Roberto]

2009/9/17 Frankie Roberto 

>
> It's worth noting that this applies ONLY to HD DTV (Freeview), which barely
> even exists yet.
>
> So don't throw away your Freeview boxes just yet. I can't see a switchover
> from Freeview to Freeview HD happening any time soon...
>

This is some interesting speculation:

*"It’s not the BBC asking for this. They’re being held over a barrel by
third-party rightsholders, from whom they’re obligated under their charter
to obtain a substantial proportion of their programming!*

*I suspect the best thing that could happen would be for OFCOM to
unambiguously refuse that permission. Doing so would substantially
strengthen the BBC’s negotiating position with rightsholders; “Well, we
would do as you ask, but we think it’s would be a violation of long-standing
principle and contrary to the public interest. More to the point, our
regulator agrees with us.”*

*Indeed, I suspect this is exactly the response that the BBC is privately
hoping for. They don’t want to do this."*
http://www.tom-watson.co.uk/2009/09/personal-video-recorders-ofcom-consultation-indicates-that-the-bbc-want-to-make-yours-obsolete/#comment-84732

Wonder if that is indeed that case...

Frankie

-- 
Frankie Roberto
Experience Designer, Rattle
0114 2706977
http://www.rattlecentral.com

Re: [backstage] License to Kill Innovation: the Broadcast Flag for UK Digital TV?

[Frankie Roberto]

2009/9/16 Brian Butterworth 

> 
> BBC wants to put DRM on the TV Brits are forced to pay for
>

It's worth noting that this applies ONLY to HD DTV (Freeview), which barely
even exists yet.

So don't throw away your Freeview boxes just yet. I can't see a switchover
from Freeview to Freeview HD happening any time soon...

Frankie

-- 
Frankie Roberto
Experience Designer, Rattle
0114 2706977
http://www.rattlecentral.com

Re: [backstage] License to Kill Innovation: the Broadcast Flag for UK Digital TV?

[Tim Dobson]

Rupert Watson wrote:
At a guess it is the parties that paid large sums of money to acquire or 
create the "content". 


Boingboing seemed to think it was a DRM consortium that had prompted the 
 move.



Sent from my dog

Loving it, wish my dog could answer email for me!

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Re: [backstage] License to Kill Innovation: the Broadcast Flag for UK Digital TV?

[Brian Butterworth]

http://www.boingboing.net/2009/09/15/bbc-wants-to-put-drm.html
BBC wants to put DRM on the TV Brits are forced to pay for
2009/9/16 Rupert Watson 

> At a guess it is the parties that paid large sums of money to acquire or
> create the "content".
>

Ah, those lovely people at PACT.


>
> Sent from my dog
>
> On 16 Sep 2009, at 07:52, "Brian Butterworth" 
> wrote:
>
> I was going to post about this when I saw the original document, but I'm
> ashamed to say I didn't get around to it, so here is the EFF on it...
>
> 
> http://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2009/09/broadcast-flag-uk
> "The BBC has
> indicated that third party content owners are seeking to ensure that
> reception equipment will implement ... copy protection. Because [these]
> requirements are not mandatory, representatives of content owners have asked
> the BBC to take steps to ensure that reception equipment will implement the
> specified content management arrangements."
>
> Probably should do an FoI request to find out who the "third party content
> owners" are...
> --
>
> Brian Butterworth
>
> follow me on twitter: 
> http://twitter.com/briantist
> web: http://www.ukfree.tv - independent digital
> television and switchover advice, since 2002
>
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<><>

Re: [backstage] License to Kill Innovation: the Broadcast Flag for UK Digital TV?

[Rupert Watson]

At a guess it is the parties that paid large sums of money to acquire  
or create the "content".


Sent from my dog

On 16 Sep 2009, at 07:52, "Brian Butterworth"   
wrote:


I was going to post about this when I saw the original document, but  
I'm ashamed to say I didn't get around to it, so here is the EFF on  
it...


http://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2009/09/broadcast-flag-uk

"The BBC has indicated that third party content owners are seeking  
to ensure that reception equipment will implement ... copy  
protection. Because [these] requirements are not mandatory,  
representatives of content owners have asked the BBC to take steps  
to ensure that reception equipment will implement the specified  
content management arrangements."


Probably should do an FoI request to find out who the "third party  
content owners" are...

--

Brian Butterworth

follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/briantist
web: http://www.ukfree.tv - independent digital television and  
switchover advice, since 2002


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<><>

[backstage] License to Kill Innovation: the Broadcast Flag for UK Digital TV?

[Brian Butterworth]

I was going to post about this when I saw the original document, but I'm
ashamed to say I didn't get around to it, so here is the EFF on it...

http://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2009/09/broadcast-flag-uk
"The BBC has
indicated that third party content owners are seeking to ensure that
reception equipment will implement ... copy protection. Because [these]
requirements are not mandatory, representatives of content owners have asked
the BBC to take steps to ensure that reception equipment will implement the
specified content management arrangements."

Probably should do an FoI request to find out who the "third party content
owners" are...
-- 

Brian Butterworth

follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/briantist
web: http://www.ukfree.tv - independent digital television and switchover
advice, since 2002