Re: Questions concerning "Immaculate Conception"
Some people do confuse immaculate conception with the virgin birth. But this is a major issue of those days. And there was even a view among Protestants that Christian traditions reflected in the Qur'an expressed the Catholic idea of the Immaculate Conception. Gibbon and others speaks of this, so it is very doubtful that Shoghi Effendi could have mistaken the terminology or missed the larger sectrarian debate of his time. Gibbon, perhaps his favorite author, seems to have seen the immaculate conception of Mary suggested by the Qur'an and it is the quranic version of Mary's sufferings that Baha'u'llah cites in the Iqan. Further, it is the Iqan that Shoghi Effendi seems to correlates with the immaculate conception, depending on how one reads the Promised Day Is Come (since he may have only been correlating it to the Virgin Mary). But, in light of Gibbons, one would naturally assume he means to correlate it with the immaculate conception of Mary. The evidence that he (improbable) or the secretaries (more probable) didn't understand and/or appreciate the specific significance of the terminology (i.e., its clear cultural identification with the dogma expressed in the 1854 Bull) is the October 1948 letter "the 'Immaculate Conception' or what we really mean is the Virgin Birth (for the two are different.)" It is also interesting that letter four says: "With regard to your question concerning the Virgin Birth of Jesus; on this point, as on several others, the Baha'i teachings are in *full agreement* with the doctrines of the Catholic Church." This seems exaggerated, even if one really believed that Promised Day Is Come was a direct affirmation of the 1854 Bull and Catholic doctrine, since the Baha'i Faith doesn't appear to be in "full" agreement with any Catholic doctrine. On the other hand, the plural "doctrines" suggests both the virgin birth and immaculate conception. Three sources known to Shoghi Effendi are 1) Sale's translation of the "Koran" (1734), 2) Gibbon's "Decline and Fall" (1737-1794) , and 3) Rodwell's translation of the "Koran" (1861): 1) The Sale's footnote to verse 3:31: "The wife of Imran is Hannah or Anne... Although Muhammad had no direct access to the Apocryphal Gospels, yet these may have influenced, or at any rate, contained much in common with, the ordinary traditions of S. Syria. And of this, the Immaculate Conception of the B. V. Mary, supposed by Gibbon (ch. 50) to have been "borrowed from the Koran," probably formed a part.] Sale also adds: "It is not improbable that the pretended immaculate conception of the Virgin Mary is intimated in this passage; for according to a tradition of Mohammed, every person that comes into the world is touched at his birth by the devil, and therefore cries out: Mary and her son only excepted, between whom and the evil spirit GOD placed a veil, so that his touch did not reach them. And for this reason, they say, neither of them were guilty of any sin, like the rest of the children of Adam: which peculiar grace they obtained by virtue of this recommendation of them by Hannah to GOD's protection." (Al Koran, p. 35) 2) Of the Qur'an, Gibbon wrote: "The wonders of the genuine and apocryphal gospels are profusely heaped on his head; and the Latin church has not disdained to borrow from the Koran the immaculate conception[87] of his virgin mother. Yet Jesus was a mere mortal; and, at the day of judgment, his testimony will serve to condemn both the Jews, who reject him as a prophet, and the Christians, who adore him as the Son of God..." [Footnote 87: It is darkly hinted in the Koran, (c. 3, p. 35,) and more clearly explained by the tradition of the Sonnites, (Sale's Note, and Maracci, tom. ii. p. 112.) In the xiith century, the immaculate conception was condemned by St. Bernard as a presumptuous novelty, (Fra Paolo, Istoria del Concilio di Trento, l. ii.)] 3) Rodwell writes: Footnote 4, to 3:32: "According to a tradition of Muhammad every new-born child is touched by Satan, with the exception of Mary and her Son, between whom and Satan God interposed a veil. Hence this passage may imply the Immaculate Conception of the B. V. Mary. See v. 37 below. With regard to Rodwell, he did *also* use language similar to Shoghi Effendi: Qur'an translation: "And her who kept her maidenhood, and into whom[3] we breathed of our spirit, and made her and her son a sign to all creatures." (21:91) [Footnote 3: See Sura [cix.] lxvi. 12. "It is quite clear from these two passages that Muhammad believed in the Immaculate and miraculous conception of Jesus." But this doesn't mean Rodwell is in any way confusing the two, just referring to both together. Sale, Rodwell, and Gibbon, are arguing that when the Quran says "made her *and* her son a sign" this accords with the Catholic idea that both Mary *and* Jesus are born miraculously, thus "Immaculate [conception of Mary] and miraculous conception of Jesus [i.e.,
Re: Questions concerning "Immaculate Conception"
Vaughan, Actually you have been very instructive. On first reading, I did not understand the meaning of Michael's quote #7. I did not realize that I had not understood it until you pointed out what I believe is its true meaning. I must thank you and Micael for clearing up the matter so succinctly. I am your servant, Richard. - Original Message - From: "Vaughn Sheline" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Baha'i Studies" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Monday, December 29, 2003 12:07 AM Subject: RE: Questions concerning "Immaculate Conception" Dear Richard, Sorry, I didn't mean to instruct others on how these matters are to be understood. Rather, I would like to share my own impressions received from considering Michael's quotes. Although it doesn't make sense to me, I suppose the Guardian may have always understood these to be different Catholic doctrines (Immaculate Conception of Mary's soul as distinguished from Virgin Conception/Birth of Christ's body) and yet he may nonetheless have chosen to use the phase "immaculate conception" to mean the miraculous virgin conception of Christ's body, but it makes more sense to me that initially the Guardian considered the phrase "Immaculate Conception" as another way to refer to the Virgin Conception of Christ's body and learned later the differences between the two Catholic doctrines of "Immaculate Conception" versus "Virgin Birth". At any rate, it looks to me like the Guardian never intended to affirm the Catholic doctrine of the immaculate conception of Mary's soul or that Mary was uniquely exempted from Original Sin. As far as I know, the Baha'i teachings do not affirm the Catholic doctrine of Original Sin. But I suppose I could be mistaken on all counts. --- Vaughn -Original Message- From: Richard H. Gravelly So, from Michael's quotation #7 we are to understand that it was understood initially that Immaculate Conception and Virgin Birth meant the same thing? Now we know that there was some confusion about the matter and that the Virgin Birth is the only birth resulting from immaculate conception. Is that correct? Richard. - Original Message - From: "Vaughn Sheline" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Baha'i Studies" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Sunday, December 28, 2003 9:10 AM Subject: RE: Questions concerning "Immaculate Conception" My dictionary defines immaculate as follows, im·mac·u·late (adj.) 1. Impeccably clean; spotless. 2. Free from stain or blemish; pure. 3. Free from fault or error: an immaculate record. 4. Having no markings. In the early (prior to 1948) letters of the Guardian, by references to the "Immaculate Conception", it seems what was really meant was only reference to the Virgin Birth of Christ being immaculate in the sense of being "spotless" and "pure" and a miracle performed by the Holy Spirit, and not according to the Catholic doctrine that Mary herself was miraculously exempted from Original Sin beginning from the time of the conception of Mary's soul. I think the Baha'i teachings do not uphold the Catholic doctrine of Original Sin, much less that Jesus' mother Mary was miraculously exempted from Original Sin, and the immaculate conception (meaning only "virgin birth") applies only to Jesus: "We believe that Christ only was conceived immaculately." (From Michael's quotation number 7, written on behalf of the Guardian in 1945) It looks to me like by 1948 the Guardian came to understand that, in Catholic doctrine, Mary's "immaculate conception" refers *not* to Mary's immaculate conception of Christ but instead to God's immaculate conception of Mary's soul, and the Guardian upheld only the Virgin Birth of Christ, not the immaculacy of Mary's soul: 'At the time when you and your dear husband came into the Faith the teachings were not as fully translated as they are now, and there were many misapprehensions regarding certain matters. One of them seems to have been the "Immaculate Conception" or what we really mean is the Virgin Birth (for the two are different.) The Master clearly writes in a Tablet that Christ was *not* begotten in the ordinary way, but by the Holy Spirit. So we must accept this. Every Faith has some miracles, and this is the great miracle of the Christian Faith.' (from Michael's quotation number 7, written on behalf of the Guardian in 1948) Best regards, --- Vaughn -- You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] http://list.jccc.net/cgi-bin/lyris.pl?enter=bahai-st news://list.jccc.net/bahai-
RE: Questions concerning "Immaculate Conception"
Vaughn: <> ...it makes more sense to me that initially the Guardian considered the phrase "Immaculate Conception" as another way to refer to the Virgin Conception of Christ's body and learned later the differences between the two Catholic doctrines of "Immaculate Conception" versus "Virgin Birth". <> Dear Vaughn, Richard, Michael: I'm inclined to agree with you, Vaughn. There is a continuing misconception about the Immaculate Conception even now, for those of us who are not familiar with Catholic Doctrine. If one were to survey a group of Protestants from various denominations I'm fairly confident they would define "Immaculate Conception" as having to do with the virginity of Mary at the tme of Jesus' conception. There doesn't seem to be anything in the King James Bible that would suggest to the Protestant Christian that Mary, herself, was conceived "immaculately" through divine intervention - even to the limitation of absolution of "original sin"... as noted in Khazeh's post. Lovingly, Sandra -- You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] http://list.jccc.net/cgi-bin/lyris.pl?enter=bahai-st news://list.jccc.net/bahai-st http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist (public) http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] (public)
RE: Questions concerning "Immaculate Conception"
Dear Richard, Sorry, I didn't mean to instruct others on how these matters are to be understood. Rather, I would like to share my own impressions received from considering Michael's quotes. Although it doesn't make sense to me, I suppose the Guardian may have always understood these to be different Catholic doctrines (Immaculate Conception of Mary's soul as distinguished from Virgin Conception/Birth of Christ's body) and yet he may nonetheless have chosen to use the phase "immaculate conception" to mean the miraculous virgin conception of Christ's body, but it makes more sense to me that initially the Guardian considered the phrase "Immaculate Conception" as another way to refer to the Virgin Conception of Christ's body and learned later the differences between the two Catholic doctrines of "Immaculate Conception" versus "Virgin Birth". At any rate, it looks to me like the Guardian never intended to affirm the Catholic doctrine of the immaculate conception of Mary's soul or that Mary was uniquely exempted from Original Sin. As far as I know, the Baha'i teachings do not affirm the Catholic doctrine of Original Sin. But I suppose I could be mistaken on all counts. --- Vaughn -Original Message- From: Richard H. Gravelly So, from Michael's quotation #7 we are to understand that it was understood initially that Immaculate Conception and Virgin Birth meant the same thing? Now we know that there was some confusion about the matter and that the Virgin Birth is the only birth resulting from immaculate conception. Is that correct? Richard. - Original Message - From: "Vaughn Sheline" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Baha'i Studies" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Sunday, December 28, 2003 9:10 AM Subject: RE: Questions concerning "Immaculate Conception" My dictionary defines immaculate as follows, im·mac·u·late (adj.) 1. Impeccably clean; spotless. 2. Free from stain or blemish; pure. 3. Free from fault or error: an immaculate record. 4. Having no markings. In the early (prior to 1948) letters of the Guardian, by references to the "Immaculate Conception", it seems what was really meant was only reference to the Virgin Birth of Christ being immaculate in the sense of being "spotless" and "pure" and a miracle performed by the Holy Spirit, and not according to the Catholic doctrine that Mary herself was miraculously exempted from Original Sin beginning from the time of the conception of Mary's soul. I think the Baha'i teachings do not uphold the Catholic doctrine of Original Sin, much less that Jesus' mother Mary was miraculously exempted from Original Sin, and the immaculate conception (meaning only "virgin birth") applies only to Jesus: "We believe that Christ only was conceived immaculately." (From Michael's quotation number 7, written on behalf of the Guardian in 1945) It looks to me like by 1948 the Guardian came to understand that, in Catholic doctrine, Mary's "immaculate conception" refers *not* to Mary's immaculate conception of Christ but instead to God's immaculate conception of Mary's soul, and the Guardian upheld only the Virgin Birth of Christ, not the immaculacy of Mary's soul: 'At the time when you and your dear husband came into the Faith the teachings were not as fully translated as they are now, and there were many misapprehensions regarding certain matters. One of them seems to have been the "Immaculate Conception" or what we really mean is the Virgin Birth (for the two are different.) The Master clearly writes in a Tablet that Christ was *not* begotten in the ordinary way, but by the Holy Spirit. So we must accept this. Every Faith has some miracles, and this is the great miracle of the Christian Faith.' (from Michael's quotation number 7, written on behalf of the Guardian in 1948) Best regards, --- Vaughn -- You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] http://list.jccc.net/cgi-bin/lyris.pl?enter=bahai-st news://list.jccc.net/bahai-st http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist (public) http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] (public)
Re: Questions concerning "Immaculate Conception"
So, from Michael's quotation #7 we are to understand that it was understood initially that Immaculate Conception and Virgin Birth meant the same thing? Now we know that there was some confusion about the matter and that the Virgin Birth is the only birth resulting from immaculate conception. Is that correct? Richard. - Original Message - From: "Vaughn Sheline" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Baha'i Studies" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Sunday, December 28, 2003 9:10 AM Subject: RE: Questions concerning "Immaculate Conception" My dictionary defines immaculate as follows, im·mac·u·late (adj.) 1. Impeccably clean; spotless. 2. Free from stain or blemish; pure. 3. Free from fault or error: an immaculate record. 4. Having no markings. In the early (prior to 1948) letters of the Guardian, by references to the "Immaculate Conception", it seems what was really meant was only reference to the Virgin Birth of Christ being immaculate in the sense of being "spotless" and "pure" and a miracle performed by the Holy Spirit, and not according to the Catholic doctrine that Mary herself was miraculously exempted from Original Sin beginning from the time of the conception of Mary's soul. I think the Baha'i teachings do not uphold the Catholic doctrine of Original Sin, much less that Jesus' mother Mary was miraculously exempted from Original Sin, and the immaculate conception (meaning only "virgin birth") applies only to Jesus: "We believe that Christ only was conceived immaculately." (From Michael's quotation number 7, written on behalf of the Guardian in 1945) It looks to me like by 1948 the Guardian came to understand that, in Catholic doctrine, Mary's "immaculate conception" refers *not* to Mary's immaculate conception of Christ but instead to God's immaculate conception of Mary's soul, and the Guardian upheld only the Virgin Birth of Christ, not the immaculacy of Mary's soul: 'At the time when you and your dear husband came into the Faith the teachings were not as fully translated as they are now, and there were many misapprehensions regarding certain matters. One of them seems to have been the "Immaculate Conception" or what we really mean is the Virgin Birth (for the two are different.) The Master clearly writes in a Tablet that Christ was *not* begotten in the ordinary way, but by the Holy Spirit. So we must accept this. Every Faith has some miracles, and this is the great miracle of the Christian Faith.' (from Michael's quotation number 7, written on behalf of the Guardian in 1948) Best regards, --- Vaughn -Original Message- From: Richard H. Gravelly If the concern regarding the idea that the Immaculate Conception of the Virgin Mary implies that Mary having been "from the instant of *her* conception, by a singular privilege by the omnipotent grace of God, through the application of the merits of Jesus Christ, the Saviour of the human race, preserved immune from all the fault of original sin" is the same as "Christ found existence through the spirit of God"; then it seems to me that the Conception of Mary and the Birth of Jesus were miracles. -- You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] http://list.jccc.net/cgi-bin/lyris.pl?enter=bahai-st news://list.jccc.net/bahai-st http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist (public) http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] (public) -- You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] http://list.jccc.net/cgi-bin/lyris.pl?enter=bahai-st news://list.jccc.net/bahai-st http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist (public) http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] (public)
RE: Questions concerning "Immaculate Conception"
My dictionary defines immaculate as follows, im·mac·u·late (adj.) 1. Impeccably clean; spotless. 2. Free from stain or blemish; pure. 3. Free from fault or error: an immaculate record. 4. Having no markings. In the early (prior to 1948) letters of the Guardian, by references to the "Immaculate Conception", it seems what was really meant was only reference to the Virgin Birth of Christ being immaculate in the sense of being "spotless" and "pure" and a miracle performed by the Holy Spirit, and not according to the Catholic doctrine that Mary herself was miraculously exempted from Original Sin beginning from the time of the conception of Mary's soul. I think the Baha'i teachings do not uphold the Catholic doctrine of Original Sin, much less that Jesus' mother Mary was miraculously exempted from Original Sin, and the immaculate conception (meaning only "virgin birth") applies only to Jesus: "We believe that Christ only was conceived immaculately." (From Michael's quotation number 7, written on behalf of the Guardian in 1945) It looks to me like by 1948 the Guardian came to understand that, in Catholic doctrine, Mary's "immaculate conception" refers *not* to Mary's immaculate conception of Christ but instead to God's immaculate conception of Mary's soul, and the Guardian upheld only the Virgin Birth of Christ, not the immaculacy of Mary's soul: 'At the time when you and your dear husband came into the Faith the teachings were not as fully translated as they are now, and there were many misapprehensions regarding certain matters. One of them seems to have been the "Immaculate Conception" or what we really mean is the Virgin Birth (for the two are different.) The Master clearly writes in a Tablet that Christ was *not* begotten in the ordinary way, but by the Holy Spirit. So we must accept this. Every Faith has some miracles, and this is the great miracle of the Christian Faith.' (from Michael's quotation number 7, written on behalf of the Guardian in 1948) Best regards, --- Vaughn -Original Message- From: Richard H. Gravelly If the concern regarding the idea that the Immaculate Conception of the Virgin Mary implies that Mary having been "from the instant of *her* conception, by a singular privilege by the omnipotent grace of God, through the application of the merits of Jesus Christ, the Saviour of the human race, preserved immune from all the fault of original sin" is the same as "Christ found existence through the spirit of God"; then it seems to me that the Conception of Mary and the Birth of Jesus were miracles. -- You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] http://list.jccc.net/cgi-bin/lyris.pl?enter=bahai-st news://list.jccc.net/bahai-st http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist (public) http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] (public)
Re: Questions concerning "Immaculate Conception"
When this servant said we need to know and love the Guardian more I was not referring to any beloved soul on this list or other. I was reminding myself. Please remember this is my true feeling and a reminder to myself HIS INVOLUNTARY CONNECTION WITH THE DIVINE SOURCE If one were to relate in detail the manifold aspects of the personality of Shoghi Effendi which like facets of a perfectly cut gem reflected the rays of divine light and inspiration, many volumes would not suffice. I firmly believe that psychologists will come to agree with the point of view that while human beings, generally, react in a voluntary or semi-voluntary way to circumstance, situations, inspiration and even to what may be considered illumination from the Divinity, Shoghi Effendi, like a sensitive instrument connected to the Source of all powers, reacted involuntarily to the most imperceptible spiritual impulse which activated his organism, making him capable of executing and discharging all functions and responsibilities related to the Cause of God without the slightest probability of error. This analysis, made at the very first meeting with him, explained to me clearly and conclusively the meaning of divine guidance and infallibility - two things that Shoghi Effendi could not voluntarily choose or control (Ugo Giachery, Shoghi Effendi - Recollections, p. 20) *** We need to know and love the Guardian more ***After the Guardian's passing, when I entered his room as one of the Hands of the Cause of God who went there to search for any directions he might have left, I was exceedingly surprised to find there was no master file or copies of letters, and to realize that the constancy of his answers was another of the unfathomable prodigies of the incredible mind and guidance of Shoghi Effendi. This constancy was and is proof of his vast, complete, orderly and deep knowledge of the Sacred Writings, of his steadfast adherence to the principles and laws of the Faith, and, above all, of that conferred infallibility inherent in his station of Guardianship. This characteristic is not the singular trait of an ordinary man but is an exemplary firstness, in the realm of objectivity and justice, of a human being who received his strength and vision from the unexplorable world of the Spirit. He possessed principles and virtues that were sublime and memorable; his actions could not be limited by the indetermination that often springs from the happening itself, but must be considered a unique bounty from God the Almighty. (Ugo Giachery, Shoghi Effendi - Recollections, p. 40) -- You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] http://list.jccc.net/cgi-bin/lyris.pl?enter=bahai-st news://list.jccc.net/bahai-st http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist (public) http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] (public)
Re: Questions concerning "Immaculate Conception"
e limited by the indetermination that often springs from the happening itself, but must be considered a unique bounty from God the Almighty. (Ugo Giachery, Shoghi Effendi - Recollections, p. 40) - Original Message - From: "Richard H. Gravelly" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Baha'i Studies" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: 27 December 2003 19:03 Subject: Re: Questions concerning "Immaculate Conception" > If the concern regarding the idea that the Immaculate Conception of the > Virgin Mary implies that Mary having been "from the instant of *her* > conception, by a singular > privilege by the omnipotent grace of God, through the application of the > merits of > Jesus Christ, the Saviour of the human race, preserved immune from all the > fault of original sin" is the same as "Christ found existence through the > spirit of God"; then it seems to me that the Conception of Mary and the > Birth of Jesus were miracles. > > Richard. > - Original Message - > From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: "Baha'i Studies" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Sent: Saturday, December 27, 2003 12:18 AM > Subject: Questions concerning "Immaculate Conception" > > > Dear friends, > > While looking up references to Catholic confession, I also came across this > reference in Lights of Guidance (p. 159) to the Immaculate Conception. > > "The churches teach doctrines--various ones in various creeds--which we as > Baha'is do not accept; such as the bodily Resurrection, confession, or, in > some > creeds, the denial of the Immaculate Conception." (From a letter written on > behalf of Shoghi Effendi to the Baha'is of > Vienna, June 24, 1947) > > According to this letter we do not accept the "denial of the Immaculate > Conception." I suppose one could argue that "Immaculate Conception" really > means > "virgin birth" as stated in a later 1948 letter written on behalf of Shoghi > Effendi, but what pre-1947 Christian creed denies the virgin birth? Does > anyone > know of one? I haven't found any. Or does this letter really mean Baha'is > are > also obligated to affirm the Catholic doctrine of the Immaculate Conception? > This is the Catholic position or Pope Pius lX's definition of the dogma > of the Immaculate Conception: "We define the doctrine which holds the most > blessed Virgin Mary was, from the instant of *her* conception, by a singular > privilege by the omnipotent grace of God, through the application of the > merits of > Jesus Christ, the Saviour of the human race, preserved immune from all the > fault of original sin, that this is revealed by God and is to be believed by > all > the faithful, firmly and constantly." (Catechism of the Catholic Church, # > 491, citing Pius IX in Ineffabilis Deus, 1854: DS 2803. Emphasis added) > Correct me, if I'm wrong, but presently it looks like the secretary > misunderstood the references to Immaculate Conception in Promised Day Is > Come, > published early in the 1940s, assumed Baha'is should affirm the belief (as > stated > in the 1946 letter below and this 1947 letter), and therefore took exception > to the Protestant and Eastern Orthodox denial of the Immaculate Conception. > If one were looking up creeds or information about the Immaculate > Conception, one popular available source at the time would have been > Schaff's "Creeds > of Christendom" (vol. 1-3, published 1879, 1878, 1884, and reprinted 1931), > which, for example, discusses the Catholic doctrine of the Immaculate > Conception at length and discusses its formal rejection by Protestants and > the Eastern > Church (vol. 1). > Whatever the secretary's source for Christian creeds, it looks like the > secretary really thought this sectarian denial of the Immaculate Conception > was > contrary to what was in Shoghi Effendi's Promised Day Is Come. And this > mistake could have been easily made, since the Guardian wrote: > > "Count Mastai-Ferretti, Bishop of Imola, the 254th pope since the inception > of St. Peter's primacy, who had been elevated to the apostolic throne two > years > after the Declaration of the Bab, and the duration of whose pontificate > exceeded that of any of his predecessors, will be permanently remembered as > the > author of the Bull which declared the Immaculate Conception of the Blessed > Virgin > (1854), referred to in the Kitab-i-Iqan, to be a doctrine of the Church, and > as the promulgator of the new dogma of Papal Infallibility (1870)." > (Promised > Day Is Come, p. 53, 1941) > > That is, one could assume that Shoghi E
Re: Questions concerning "Immaculate Conception"
If the concern regarding the idea that the Immaculate Conception of the Virgin Mary implies that Mary having been "from the instant of *her* conception, by a singular privilege by the omnipotent grace of God, through the application of the merits of Jesus Christ, the Saviour of the human race, preserved immune from all the fault of original sin" is the same as "Christ found existence through the spirit of God"; then it seems to me that the Conception of Mary and the Birth of Jesus were miracles. Richard. - Original Message - From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Baha'i Studies" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Saturday, December 27, 2003 12:18 AM Subject: Questions concerning "Immaculate Conception" Dear friends, While looking up references to Catholic confession, I also came across this reference in Lights of Guidance (p. 159) to the Immaculate Conception. "The churches teach doctrines--various ones in various creeds--which we as Baha'is do not accept; such as the bodily Resurrection, confession, or, in some creeds, the denial of the Immaculate Conception." (From a letter written on behalf of Shoghi Effendi to the Baha'is of Vienna, June 24, 1947) According to this letter we do not accept the "denial of the Immaculate Conception." I suppose one could argue that "Immaculate Conception" really means "virgin birth" as stated in a later 1948 letter written on behalf of Shoghi Effendi, but what pre-1947 Christian creed denies the virgin birth? Does anyone know of one? I haven't found any. Or does this letter really mean Baha'is are also obligated to affirm the Catholic doctrine of the Immaculate Conception? This is the Catholic position or Pope Pius lX's definition of the dogma of the Immaculate Conception: "We define the doctrine which holds the most blessed Virgin Mary was, from the instant of *her* conception, by a singular privilege by the omnipotent grace of God, through the application of the merits of Jesus Christ, the Saviour of the human race, preserved immune from all the fault of original sin, that this is revealed by God and is to be believed by all the faithful, firmly and constantly." (Catechism of the Catholic Church, # 491, citing Pius IX in Ineffabilis Deus, 1854: DS 2803. Emphasis added) Correct me, if I'm wrong, but presently it looks like the secretary misunderstood the references to Immaculate Conception in Promised Day Is Come, published early in the 1940s, assumed Baha'is should affirm the belief (as stated in the 1946 letter below and this 1947 letter), and therefore took exception to the Protestant and Eastern Orthodox denial of the Immaculate Conception. If one were looking up creeds or information about the Immaculate Conception, one popular available source at the time would have been Schaff's "Creeds of Christendom" (vol. 1-3, published 1879, 1878, 1884, and reprinted 1931), which, for example, discusses the Catholic doctrine of the Immaculate Conception at length and discusses its formal rejection by Protestants and the Eastern Church (vol. 1). Whatever the secretary's source for Christian creeds, it looks like the secretary really thought this sectarian denial of the Immaculate Conception was contrary to what was in Shoghi Effendi's Promised Day Is Come. And this mistake could have been easily made, since the Guardian wrote: "Count Mastai-Ferretti, Bishop of Imola, the 254th pope since the inception of St. Peter's primacy, who had been elevated to the apostolic throne two years after the Declaration of the Bab, and the duration of whose pontificate exceeded that of any of his predecessors, will be permanently remembered as the author of the Bull which declared the Immaculate Conception of the Blessed Virgin (1854), referred to in the Kitab-i-Iqan, to be a doctrine of the Church, and as the promulgator of the new dogma of Papal Infallibility (1870)." (Promised Day Is Come, p. 53, 1941) That is, one could assume that Shoghi Effendi is saying that the "Immaculate Conception" is referred to in the Kitab-i-Iqan, rather than just the "Blessed Virgin" is referred to in the Kitab-i-Iqan. But shortly afterwards it appears that the secretary realized or learned the mistake and attempted to correct it, but without acknowledging that a mistake had occurred. The 1948 letter states: "At the time when you and your dear husband came into the Faith the teachings were not as fully translated as they are now, and there were many misapprehensions regarding certain matters. One of them seems to have been the 'Immaculate Conception' or what we really mean is the Virgin Birth (for the two are different.)" It seems hard to believe that Shoghi Effendi would have ever confused the terminology for the two doctrines, since his own writings are so precise and this controversial doctrine is perhaps the most significant and long-lasting legacy of Pope Pius IX. Would it make more sense to assume that the secretary either confused the terminology, or was confused for a time over which doc
Re: Questions concerning "Immaculate Conception"
The Tablet of the Master mentioned in number eight is in Arabic and can be seen in the first volume of `Abdu'l-Baha's Letters, published in 1910 in Egypt, page 9. It is very famous among the Iranian Baha'is. If the provisional translation is needed, it can be provided. Faruq Yahoo! Messenger - Communicate instantly..."Ping" your friends today! Download Messenger Now -- You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] http://list.jccc.net/cgi-bin/lyris.pl?enter=bahai-st news://list.jccc.net/bahai-st http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist (public) http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] (public)
