Re: Uplift Timeline
The timeline has been very slightly modified to accomodate two literary coincidences that should bother no one but Alberto. 1492: Discovery of the Americas 1961: Yuri Gagarin in space 2211: First contact, 500 years after 1961 2492: Action resumes with the next Uplift Novel, 1000 years after discovery of the Americas. BCE/CE dates have been added. There is no entry for Cambrian Magic. The Tabernacle still disapears in 31 AxY. === Time-Line: History of the Five Galaxies[1] G = Billion, M = Million, K = Thousand; BCE=Before Common (Terragen) Era (=BC), CE = Common (Terragen) Era (=AD); BxY = before Contact, 0xY = year of Contact (= 2211 CE), AxY = after Contact; All years are standard Terragen measure. SadPaktar = Paktar that Progenitors Passed On from Main Sequence existence = Paktar 0 = 2.26 BYA; SS = Steve Sloan addition. CA = Contacting Aliens GU2 = GURPS Uplift, 2nd ed. --- 15B BxY/BCE: Big Bang (SS) 3.1G - 2.8G BxY/BCE: Massive terraforming campaigns. Evidence of age-long world-shattering conflicts. Sources mention 17 Galaxies. (Beginnings of life on Earth.) 2.8G - 2.2G BxY/BCE: Progenitors rule the galaxies in what is traditionally thought to be a Golden Age. Mention of 13 Galaxies. Records extremely sketchy. 2.8G-2.75G BxY/BCE: Scholars attribute Paean of Loneliness to this age. The Paean of Loneliness is an ode to Uplift. 2.75G BxY/BCE: Appearance of first textual and archaeological evidence for Hydrogen Breathing and Methane Breathing sapients. 2.71G BxY/BCE: Transfer point to Third Galaxy discovered; wrecked Galactic-level civilization discovered there. The Progenitors and allied species revise their ecological ethics and practices in response. 2.7G BxY/BCE: First Machine Wars. Self-replicating AIs and nanotechnology are restricted and regulated in the common interest. Galactic Foresight Organization founded. 2.305G BxY/BCE: First Wars with Hydrogen-Breathers begin. 2.3G BxY/BCE: Progenitors separate themselves from affairs of lesser races, passing on laws and edicts. 2.263G BxY/BCE: Second Machine Wars begin. According to legend, self-replicating, intelligent, non-organic constructs-designed by both H-2 and O-2 combatants in the H-2/O-2 Wars-mutually decide their masters are insanely irrational, and so unfit to represent Sapiency. 2.2615G BxY/BCE: H-2/O-2 Wars escalate. 2.26G BxY/BCE (a): Progenitors physically leave the Galaxies according to Inheritor legend. Progenitors Transcend according to Awaitor legend. 2.26G BxY/BCE (b): Artificial life enjoys considerable military advantage in the three-way wars between Artificial, H-2, and O-2 life. 2.258G BxY/BCE: Open hostilities in the First H-2/O-2 Wars end with the Cease Fire for Negotiations Toward a Mutually Beneficial Peace. 2.256G BxY/BCE: Macro-Nanitic sapient species are exterminated by the Organic species per the agreement of 2.258G BxY. 2.253G BxY/BCE: As Second Machine Wars end, Second H-2/O-2 Wars begin. This is partly attributed to an agressive H-2 faction in a newly contacted galaxy. 11 galaxies. 2.25G BxY/BCE: The alliance of Organic life defeats the Artificial species. Treaties restrict Artificial life to designated Reserve Areas. These treaties are still in force. 2.24G BxY/BCE: Zang establish separate peace with O/2 Civilization paving the way for a general peace. 2.23G BxY/BCE: First Comprehensive H-2/O-2 Trucial Agreements concluded. These agreements result in the official alliance of all Organic life against all Artificial life. Use of cybernetic technology is discouraged. The Foresight Organization is strengthened. 2.22G BxY/BCE: Progenitors Pass On, according to Transcendor belief. 2.202G BxY/BCE (a): Hydrogen Breathers exterminate sapient Methane and Ammonia life-forms. 2.202G BxY/BCE (b): Second Comprehensive H-2/O-2 Trucial Agreements concluded, forming the basis for H-2/O-2 interaction to this day. The first systematic Hydrogen Breather and Oxygen Breather cooperation in migration and ecological management begins. The Galactic Institute for Migration begins to take on its modern form. 2.15G BxY/BCE: An O-2 power vacuum leads predecessors of some of today's alliances to battle for control of the galaxies. Nadir of post-Progenitor dark ages. 2.1G - 1.9G BxY/BCE: Power struggles largely resolved. This is a crucial formative age for much of O-2 Galactic civilization as we now know it. The Library records from this time forward are notably more complete than for earlier epochs. 1.9G BxY/BCE: Institute for Civilized Warfare formed. 1.6G BxY/BCE: Contact lost with three galaxies. Eight galaxies remain. The disaster results in cultural upheavals and sparks the first wave of memnetic plagues. 1.4G BxY/BCE: The Library is reorganized into its modern form. The Uplift Institute is founded. 1.1G BxY/BCE: Contact
Re: Uplift Timeline
On Wednesday 2004-01-28 19:30, Alberto Monteiro wrote: William Taylor wrote: You leave out the very important: 41M BxY: Rediscovery of transfer points to galaxies originally numbered Seven and Eleven, now renumbered Two and Four. Earth is in Galaxy Two which was Galaxy Seven, which was lost from 150M BxY to 41M BxY, which includes the height and end of the age of dinosaurs. Ok, but then there's another date when _both_ Galaxies 7 and 11 lost contact with the others: 1.6 BYA: Contact lost with three galaxies [7, 9, 11] Remaining Galaxies renumbered. Eight galaxies remain. The disaster results in cultural upheavals and sparks the first wave of memnetic plagues. But of course this would not allow the Cambrian explosion on Earth O:-) Eukaryotic cells and sex! http://www.fossilmall.com/Science/Paleontology/Geological_Time.htm On Wednesday 2004-01-28 19:23, Alberto Monteiro wrote: Trent Shipley wrote: Why not add the following: 545 MYA: Diversity is artificially induced in many worlds, including Earth [causing the Cambrian explosion]. This is the last reference to Earth in the Galactic Library. It depends on DB. Yes. And He wrote on 1999-05-24: Re: The discussion of mining minerals and ores on Mars (differentiated core, but easy digging) I'm afraid the dream won't work for a simple reason. There's a better source of raw materials just floating around a little farther out in the solar system. Evidence from meteorites is strong that there was a differentiated body that got broken up ~600 million years ago, and that that's what many asteroids may be from. If so, you don't have to drill at all: you just find the right asteroid and harvest the whole thing.* For more on this, see MINING THE SKY, by my pal, U or Arizona Prof John S. Lewis. He has some more books, too. dbrin * Some suggest this was one of 3 bits of evidence that the solar system was visited in that time frame. The other two were the Cambrian explosion of life (somebody flushed a toilet), and the claim that the age-distribution of ore-bodies of certain minerals that might be of interest to advanced civilizations shows a distinct drop for ages 600 million years. So I think it's fair game to add His scientific speculations into His fiction :-) I expect that he has a personal politcial agenda of supporting--or at least not undermining--support for evolution as fact. (I know that the pro-evolution theme is important to me) For this sub-theme it is critical that the Galactics *NEVER* mess with Earth. But they did: there are Galactic Library references to Earth - only they are too old. I don't like it and I ain't puttin' it in my version unless DB gives me direct instructions. The toilet idea just doesn't work. (Why is all DNA so simmilar? Heck, why is everything coded in DNA? Where is the trace of the alien biology?) We do not need magic aliens to account for the Cambrian. If we don't need them, and don't have instructions to put them in. [Of course, Alberto, you keep the semi-official timeline. If you want to put it into your version no one will stop you.] BTW, what was the date the first Cosmonaut went into space. Gagarin, 1961. Unless the soviets had tried before and failed. They only reported their successes :-) The CE/BCE system is annoying in that it lacks a year zero. Is this a real problem? We are recording dates, not computing periods. Not a problem, just a nusaince. 31 AxY: A small branch Library is installed at La Paz, Earth. The Human starship Tabernacle disappears. The flight of Tabernacle should happen _after_ Sundiver, because they carried a book written by Jacob Demwa in year 42 after Contact. This isn't my entry. It is from SeJ. We can assume that GU2 superceeds the earlier source or assume it is is error and make a correction. IIRC, this was overlooked in the GU2 Timeline. Nope. Its in GU2, missing from CA. Though I don't recommend it, I am happy to modify the entry. Just pick a date. I would like to present the recent dates in terms that are human-understandable. As in 277-Q1, or 277-February? No, as in 2489-May : Streaker flees to Kithrup :-P I tell you what. I will put the dates in a dual format. *xY/*CE and republish. On Wednesday 2004-01-28 19:26, Alberto Monteiro wrote: Trent Shipley wrote: Yuri Gagarin was the first man in space on 12 April 1961. So the date for Contact is stuck at 2211 because it makes Contact happen 250 years after we went into space. 2212 just won't do. Math logic looses to literary logic. Whenever I find round periods like 250 years, it's convenient to accept them as approximations. 250 could be 251. BTW, where is it written that Contact happened 250 years after the first human flight? Alberto Monteiro Yes we could assume that 251 is almost 250. Of course, our error is even
Brin: LotR and Conservatives
http://dneiwert.blogspot.com/2004_01_25_dneiwert_archive.html#1075360419 55129875 And, like Isildur or Gollum, they are incapable, clearly, of even perceiving their own abasement. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Tg Territories
Trent Shipley wrote: Various Terragen Confederation Territories by GIM Leasehold Type I have just found the missing colonies. There's no need to place Easter around Alpha Centauri :-) In _Startide Rising_, there's a reference to the _Canaan Colonies_ that can be defended by the Tymbrimi. Maybe these are the colonies [notice the plural!] around Alpha Centauri. The plural suggests that there could be two [or three] of them, around desolate worlds in that system. Alberto Monteiro ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Uplift Timeline
Trent Shipley wrote: 1.6 BYA: Contact lost with three galaxies [7, 9, 11] Remaining Galaxies renumbered. Eight galaxies remain. The disaster results in cultural upheavals and sparks the first wave of memnetic plagues. But of course this would not allow the Cambrian explosion on Earth O:-) Eukaryotic cells and sex! http://www.fossilmall.com/Science/Paleontology/Geological_Time.htm I know the scientific explanation for the Cambrian explosion, but we are discussing _fiction_, aren't we? Also, another reason might be that Earth's natural radioactivity had reduced below the threshold point where multicellular life became killed by it, but still high enough to produce high levels of mutation. * Some suggest this was one of 3 bits of evidence that the solar system was visited in that time frame. The other two were the Cambrian explosion of life (somebody flushed a toilet), and the claim that the age-distribution of ore-bodies of certain minerals that might be of interest to advanced civilizations shows a distinct drop for ages 600 million years. So I think it's fair game to add His scientific speculations into His fiction :-) I don't like it and I ain't puttin' it in my version unless DB gives me direct instructions. Ok. But maybe we could come to a compromising solution? What about writing that Earth scholars suspect that the Cambrian explosion was triggered by the Galactics, as the oldest record about Earth dates from that time? The toilet idea just doesn't work. (Why is all DNA so simmilar? Heck, why is everything coded in DNA? Where is the trace of the alien biology?) You are not paying attention to the Canon: _every_ O-2 life in the Galaxies is based on the same DNA that makes us. Even with the laterality choice. This is Uplift Dogma. Otherwise inter-world species would not be mutually edible :-) We do not need magic aliens to account for the Cambrian. No, we don't. But the Uplift _fiction_ does :-P [Of course, Alberto, you keep the semi-official timeline. If you want to put it into your version no one will stop you.] I am somehow hindered into updating my semi-official timelines now that they are becoming even less semi- and more canonical. My timelines were the basis of parts of CA and GU2. Though I don't recommend it, I am happy to modify the entry. Just pick a date. Ok, I will do it. No, as in 2489-May : Streaker flees to Kithrup :-P I tell you what. I will put the dates in a dual format. *xY/*CE and republish. Ok. I think it makes it more interesting for XXI centurians to read dates in *CE :-) Yes we could assume that 251 is almost 250. Of course, our error is even smaller when we 2211 is alsmost 2212. Nope. Not changing it unless DB insists. You can change it in the stuff you publish if you want. But it's Him who chose the date 2212! This date is in CA and GU. The lost Galaxies are 7, 9, and 11. Is it purposeful that the _11th_ Galaxy was the source of the agressive H-2 breathers, and that it will be reunited latter? This would be _Andromeda_, wouldn't it? I do not know. Please explain further. Better ask WT. He's the expert in Galaxy counting :-) c 3000 BxY: Earth's Axial Age begins. Axial Age? wtf? The Axial Age is a construct used by world historians. They use different frames. All start it at c.800 BCE. Depending on who is using the concept it then runs to c.400 BCE, c.200 CE, or c.700 CE. Even in its longest form it is a relatively brief span of human existence, it is even a reasonably modest span of human-kinds agricultural and settled existience. During the axial age Indian religions began to take on their modern form, Confucious and Lao-Tze taught, as Zoroastrianism arose, Greek and Roman philosophy took form and so did recognizible Judaism, Christianity and Islam. Ah, so this would be - according to Danikite belief - the time when the Rothen [or else] came to Earth to teach us again? Maybe you should explain it further for non-historians 280 AxY: [Streaker arrives on Jijo? SS] Streaker should arrive on Jijo in 279 AxY. Agreed. Please pick one of Q1,2,3,4. I am not creative. I am just destructive. I cannot begin to describe how not-interested I am in that degree of resolution. (Besides, you need to convert all of those to Earth-local not Streaker-local time, and GU2 says you basically can't.) Yes, that is a catch to justify all _small_ inconsistencies in synchronization Alberto Monteiro ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Uplift Timeline
In a message dated 1/29/2004 7:13:09 AM US Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Better ask WT. He's the expert in Galaxy counting :-) Only that Earth is in Two, and Hurumphta, and supposedly the Hoon home world, isn't. [Contradicting GU2, I think. Though there has to be a colony world somewhat near to Earth or they wouldn't have been called in to clean up the mess.] William Taylor ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
[ADMIN] Due to MyDoom, we're discarding non-member postings
We're getting hit with an unusual number of non-member postings, the vast majority of which are being generated by the MyDoom virus. Rather than processing all of them, or bouncing them, I'm temporarily setting the list to discard all non-member postings. This means that if you post from an address other than your usual one, which occasionally is a result of an server name change (e.g., [EMAIL PROTECTED] becomes [EMAIL PROTECTED]), your message will quietly vanish into the bitbucket. Normally Julia or I (Jose is MIA) would catch such postings and release them (e-mail catch and release!). When the volume dies down, I'll change the list back to the usual settings. Nick -- Nick Arnett Director, Business Intelligence Services LiveWorld Inc. Phone/fax: (408) 904-7198 [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Doing Business With The Enemy (LLL)
Doug Pensinger wrote: Julia wrote: (and ask me about what I know about the aftermath of Gettysburg any time you like) Consider yourself asked. 8^) After the battle, there were a lot of men left lying for dead. A group of Quakers came though with wagons, and checked each man. Those who were still alive were lifted into the wagons and taken to their homes, and cared for until they died or recovered. Those who recovered were sent on their way. (One of my ancestors was one such man.) Julia ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: [ADMIN] Due to MyDoom, we're discarding non-member postings
Nick Arnett wrote: We're getting hit with an unusual number of non-member postings, the vast majority of which are being generated by the MyDoom virus. Rather than processing all of them, or bouncing them, I'm temporarily setting the list to discard all non-member postings. This means that if you post from an address other than your usual one, which occasionally is a result of an server name change (e.g., [EMAIL PROTECTED] becomes [EMAIL PROTECTED]), your message will quietly vanish into the bitbucket. Normally Julia or I (Jose is MIA) would catch such postings and release them (e-mail catch and release!). When the volume dies down, I'll change the list back to the usual settings. So *that's* why the flood suddenly dried up! :) It's these worms viruses that make me long for the days where all the spam is just Nigerian scam stuff. Julia ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: [ADMIN] Due to MyDoom, we're discarding non-member postings
It's these worms viruses that make me long for the days where all the spam is just Nigerian scam stuff. I think I might have some if you want it, for old times sake... ;) Damon. = Damon Agretto [EMAIL PROTECTED] Qui desiderat pacem, praeparet bellum. http://www.geocities.com/garrand.geo/index.html Now Building: __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free web site building tool. Try it! http://webhosting.yahoo.com/ps/sb/ ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
More good reasons to Distrust Corporations and Drug Companies
http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A58130-2004Jan28?language=print er Makers of popular antidepressants such as Paxil, Zoloft and Effexor have refused to disclose the details of most clinical trials involving depressed children, denying doctors and parents crucial evidence as they weigh fresh fears that such medicines may cause some children to become suicidal. The companies say the studies are trade secrets. Researchers familiar with the unpublished data said the majority of secret trials show that children taking the medicines did not get any better than children taking dummy pills. ... ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Uplift Timeline: Tabernacle leaves Earth
What about 2267 AD? It would be 225 years ago, or about 281 Jijo Years ago, or about Jijo Year 1650, as in GU2, p.150 [there are many references to 300 Jijo Years of Human Occupation in Jijo, but I can always assume that 300 is a close approximation to 280] Alberto Monteiro PS: I don't like that entry about the Soro message that mentions that Streaker left Kthsemenee System. IMHO, it should be replaced by the _actual_ date when Streaker departed. The core action of _Startide Rising_ [from Ch1 to Ch124] took a little over 1 _Earth week_, so it doesn't make sense to place the departure from the System _half_ a year after Streaker found the Derelict Fleet. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: [ADMIN] Due to MyDoom, we're discarding non-member postings
Damon Agretto wrote: It's these worms viruses that make me long for the days where all the spam is just Nigerian scam stuff. I think I might have some if you want it, for old times sake... ;) Oh, there *was* some. Just not *all* of the crap was that. :) Julia ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: [ADMIN] Due to MyDoom, we're discarding non-member postings
Damon Agretto wrote: It's these worms viruses that make me long for the days where all the spam is just Nigerian scam stuff. I think I might have some if you want it, for old times sake... ;) I have some, but it is being held in a bank in the Netherlands. If you'll send me $50,000, we can get it released. I'll split it with you. Nick -- Nick Arnett Director, Business Intelligence Services LiveWorld Inc. Phone/fax: (408) 904-7198 [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
L3: Pearl Harbor, 9/11, and incompetence
Some years ago a friend researched the 1941 Pearl Harbor attack against the US. He said Other historical events that I have researched got more interesting the more I looked at them. This was not like that. It got less interesting. As far as I can see, there was not any plot by Roosevelt to bring the US into the war, or anything like that. The Americans were simply incompetent and racist. [Racist in that they did not think the Japanese navy could carry out a successful surprise attack.] Regarding 9/11, Dan Minette [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote ... 2) Bush knew enough so that any reasonable person would have expected him to be able to have stopped the attacks, but he was asleep at the switch. ... ... gradations responsibility that can be assigned in a plus-delta review. . . 3) There was no way that even the very best people could have forseen the attacks. ... 2 is not treason, but incompetence. The worst you can call it is dereliction of duty. Since Bush is trying to keep what happened before as secret as possible, even from people who have the security clearance to look at the material, it raises the possibility that the answer is closer to 2 than 3. [Dan thinks that what happened is closer to 3 but open to debate] Speaking for myself, I can tell you that I was surprised by the attacks, even though I had seen a book cover depicting a highjacked airliner flying into a skyscraper, and knew that suicide attacks are common in some cultures. However, I did not receive any briefings about this from professionals who should have been more military and less culture-biased than I. Since President Bush and others did receive briefings, either the briefers were not competent or they failed to convey the risk well or the President and his collegues did not see the risk as sufficient to merit their spending much more of their time dealing with the US civil service and military on this issue. To me, the third option is most likely. However, it has been argued that the Bush Administration was dependant on an intelligence organization created by its predecessor, and therefore could not give its briefing much credence. Thus, to decide whether or not to hold the Bush Administration responsible, we must look at other administrative actions. There is no doubt to me that President Bush and his collegues are politically shrewd. That is not the question here. The question is whether they are running a competent Administration. It goes without saying that everyone makes mistakes. However, good measures of an administration are whether it makes fewer than an alternative administration and whether it learns from the mistakes it does make, and makes corrections. Here are military issues: * Afganistan: after the then government refused to extradite Osama bin Laden, the US invaded the country and changed the government. This part was successful. However, more than two years on, has the follow up been as successful? That is to say, have potential sanctuaries for US enemies in Afganistan and neighboring countries been removed? Are young men finding it better to get jobs on US and other funded development projects than joining the armies of local warlords or farming opium? It looks to me that so far, the follow up has failed. Indeed, the US is talking of engaging in another `Spring offensive', which is a sign that the US has not defeated its enemies in Afganistan and neighboring countries. * Justification for invasion of Iraq: the Bush Administration publically argued for the invasion of Iraq on three grounds: 1. To support UN Chapter 7 resolutions. The justification for supporting the UN is that international laws and resolutions are a liberal, democratic, and contemporary European ideal; they provide a mechanism for restraining the actions of a super power. [I read various Blix inspection reports, which told me that the Iraqi was not abiding by the mandatory Chapter 7 resolution at issue.] 2. To help the people of Iraq free themselves from a cruel dictatorship. Salmon Rushdie made this argument. Eventually, the US government also made this argument, but not before 2003 Feb 17, when I mentioned it, with the note that No government that I know of has said that this is a prime reason to go to war, although all claim it would be a nice side effect. 3. To find and destroy chemical, biological, and nuclear weapons. Without a doubt, this was the major public justification for the invasion. The Bush Administration convinced its political supporters and some others that not only was the
Re: Brin: LotR and Conservatives
Heh. Of course I think he misses the point. It is not so much conservatism as it is romanticism... though certainly the two have a major amount of psychological overlap in their grouchy, look0backwards mentality. If you care to, drop back at that guy's blog and refer folks to http://www.davidbrin.com/tolkienarticle1.html It's still the most visited page at my site! Thanks good luck. db = . . * Please note. My email address of many years is changing FROM [EMAIL PROTECTED] TO [EMAIL PROTECTED] ... (Or else use [EMAIL PROTECTED]) ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Tg Territories
On Thursday 2004-01-29 05:46, Alberto Monteiro wrote: Trent Shipley wrote: Various Terragen Confederation Territories by GIM Leasehold Type I have just found the missing colonies. There's no need to place Easter around Alpha Centauri :-) In _Startide Rising_, there's a reference to the _Canaan Colonies_ that can be defended by the Tymbrimi. Maybe these are the colonies [notice the plural!] around Alpha Centauri. The plural suggests that there could be two [or three] of them, around desolate worlds in that system. Yes we could, if I hadn't already taken the time to write up Easter. There was also mention in GU1 of the Cygnus Colonies. I had always assumed that both the Canaan and Cygnus colonies were unspecified subsets of the colonies already listed. Also, you will recall that the problem wasn't that we couldn't come up with 10 major colonies. We had a perfect count. 1-Atlast: 2-Calafia: 3-Deemi: 4-Dezni: 5-Garth: 6-Horst: 7-Mars: 8-Omnivarium: 9-NuDawn (Mudaun in Gal-7): 10-Venus: The problem was that we wanted 10 major *leases*, and only had 9. 1-Atlast: 2-Calafia: 3-Deemi: 4-Dezni: 5-Earth: 6-Garth: 7-Horst: 8-Omnivarium: 9-NuDawn (Mudaun in Gal-7): By adding desolate worlds and arbitarilly declaring them to be the Canaan Colonies we fail to solve the problem of producing a major lease. We add so many colonies it is hard to reconcile the fan-fic with the source. Worse, we may tread on DB's toes if he wanted (as I believe) the Canaan Colonies to consist of some sub-set of the 9 cannonical leashold worlds. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Doing Business With The Enemy
In all seriousness, I still don't get it. Other than such displays of force, what do you think a Qaddafi would respond to? As far as I can tell, _nothing_ except force is likely to get results from someone like him. There have been stories that he also responded to such things as his growing awareness of Libya's backwardness, isolation, and economic stagnation, his own approaching mortality, the death of his son, along with fear of what happened in Iraq. There are stories that this has been in the works for several years, although it may have been accelerated by what happened in Iraq. I distrust unitary explanations. Tom Beck www.mercerjewishsingles.org I always knew I'd see the first man on the Moon. I never dreamed I'd see the last. - Dr Jerry Pournelle ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Uplift Timeline
The timeline has been very slightly modified to accomodate two literary coincidences that should bother no one but Alberto. 1492: Discovery of the Americas 1961: Yuri Gagarin in space 2211: First contact, 500 years after 1961 (Over Alberto M.'s vigorous objection that it should remain 2212.) 2492: Action resumes with the next Uplift Novel, 1000 years after discovery of the Americas. Added entry that Cuthmar reaches Earth in 2212. On Thursday 2004-01-29 06:36, Alberto Monteiro wrote: Cambrian Magic. I don't like it and I ain't puttin' it in my version unless DB gives me direct instructions. Ok. But maybe we could come to a compromising solution? What about writing that Earth scholars suspect that the Cambrian explosion was triggered by the Galactics, as the oldest record about Earth dates from that time? Done. See entry below. c 3000 BxY: Earth's Axial Age begins. Axial Age? wtf? [Trent's definition.] Ah, so this would be - according to Danikite belief - the time when the Rothen [or else] came to Earth to teach us again? Maybe you should explain it further for non-historians Done see entry. Also, I check facts on pyramids. Changed dates. On Thursday 2004-01-29 10:18, Alberto Monteiro wrote: What about 2267 AD? It would be 225 years ago, or about 281 Jijo Years ago, or about Jijo Year 1650, as in GU2, p.150 [there are many references to 300 Jijo Years of Human Occupation in Jijo, but I can always assume that 300 is a close approximation to 280] Done. See entry. [NB. We are now talking about at most 225 years of Humans on Jijo. Can you reconcile the timelines?] Alberto Monteiro PS: I don't like that entry about the Soro message that mentions that Streaker left Kthsemenee System. IMHO, it should be replaced by the _actual_ date when Streaker departed. The core action of _Startide Rising_ [from Ch1 to Ch124] took a little over 1 _Earth week_, so it doesn't make sense to place the departure from the System _half_ a year after Streaker found the Derelict Fleet. I think it works. You assume the broadcast is late in 278/2489-Q1. Streaker in on the run through Q2 and enters Kthsemenee in early Q3. I have altered the entry. revised timeline follows. [By the way, this has been a lot of work. Do we want DB's imprimateur?] = Time-Line: History of the Five Galaxies[1] G = Billion, M = Million, K = Thousand; BCE=Before Common (Terragen) Era (=BC), CE = Common (Terragen) Era (=AD); BxY = before Contact, 0xY = year of Contact (= 2211 CE), AxY = after Contact; All years are standard Terragen measure. SadPaktar = Paktar that Progenitors Passed On from Main Sequence existence = Paktar 0 = 2.26 BYA; SS = Steve Sloan addition. CA = Contacting Aliens GU2 = GURPS Uplift, 2nd ed. --- 15B BxY/BCE: Big Bang (SS) 3.1G - 2.8G BxY/BCE: Massive terraforming campaigns. Evidence of age-long world-shattering conflicts. Sources mention 17 Galaxies. (Beginnings of life on Earth.) 2.8G - 2.2G BxY/BCE: Progenitors rule the galaxies in what is traditionally thought to be a Golden Age. Mention of 13 Galaxies. Records extremely sketchy. 2.8G-2.75G BxY/BCE: Scholars attribute Paean of Loneliness to this age. The Paean of Loneliness is an ode to Uplift. 2.75G BxY/BCE: Appearance of first textual and archaeological evidence for Hydrogen Breathing and Methane Breathing sapients. 2.71G BxY/BCE: Transfer point to Third Galaxy discovered; wrecked Galactic-level civilization discovered there. The Progenitors and allied species revise their ecological ethics and practices in response. 2.7G BxY/BCE: First Machine Wars. Self-replicating AIs and nanotechnology are restricted and regulated in the common interest. Galactic Foresight Organization founded. 2.305G BxY/BCE: First Wars with Hydrogen-Breathers begin. 2.3G BxY/BCE: Progenitors separate themselves from affairs of lesser races, passing on laws and edicts. 2.263G BxY/BCE: Second Machine Wars begin. According to legend, self-replicating, intelligent, non-organic constructs-designed by both H-2 and O-2 combatants in the H-2/O-2 Wars-mutually decide their masters are insanely irrational, and so unfit to represent Sapiency. 2.2615G BxY/BCE: H-2/O-2 Wars escalate. 2.26G BxY/BCE (a): Progenitors physically leave the Galaxies according to Inheritor legend. Progenitors Transcend according to Awaitor legend. 2.26G BxY/BCE (b): Artificial life enjoys considerable military advantage in the three-way wars between Artificial, H-2, and O-2 life. 2.258G BxY/BCE: Open hostilities in the First H-2/O-2 Wars end with the Cease Fire for Negotiations Toward a Mutually Beneficial Peace. 2.256G BxY/BCE: Macro-Nanitic sapient species are exterminated by the Organic species per the agreement of 2.258G BxY. 2.253G BxY/BCE: As Second Machine Wars end, Second H-2/O-2 Wars begin. This is
Re: Doing Business With The Enemy
There were a number of young men in the South who fought for the Confederacy not because they were trying to defend slavery, but because they felt allegiance to their states before their country. While the simplistic interpretation, and maybe the most correct one, of the Civil War was that it was about the slavery issue, a lot of those who fought for the Confederacy did not justify their participation for that reason. Slavery doesn't get to what was really going on in the hearts and minds of many of those who fought. (And those in the North weren't primarily fighting to free the slaves, either, although there were those who went to war willingly for that end.) Some people might slap the oil interpretation over anything the US does in the Middle East. Evidently that is not the motivation for a large number of people supporting the current actions. Poke at this parallel, scream at me if you like, but this is where *my* mind went in the face of the oil/no, not oil argument. Substitute any idea that might be self-serving for Bush himself but not supported by supporters of the war for oil, if you like, and I'll throw the same Civil War situation back again. Let's say that you're right, and that many (maybe even most) of the Confederate soldiers were not fighting to defend slavery. So what? The motivation of their leaders CERTAINLY was primarily if not exclusively to defend slavery. THAT was the state's right that all the states seceded to protect. The Civil War was ALL about slavery; yes, there were other factors, but they all came back to slavery. Once the war began, people on each side fought for many reasons; but if there had not been any slavery, there would have been no Civil War. That said, I don't claim that this is a war over oil. And even if it were, calling it that would not denigrate the soldiers, who are fighting for their country. But there could be - and in the Civil War apparently was - a major disconnect between the motivations of the people doing the fighting and that of the people who sent them to fight. (Southern soldiers, cynical about the plantation owners, called the war 'A rich man's war and a poor man's fight'.) To understand the origins of a war, it's perhaps less important to understand the people who were sent to fight. They rarely know much about the strategy and policy that led to the outbreak of the war. Especially when the leadership dissembles or conceals or deceives or exaggerates - c.f, Vietnam then and Iraq now. Tom Beck www.mercerjewishsingles.org I always knew I'd see the first man on the Moon. I never dreamed I'd see the last. - Dr Jerry Pournelle ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: More good reasons to Distrust Corporations and Drug Companies
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], The Fool [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A58130-2004Jan28? language=print er Makers of popular antidepressants such as Paxil, Zoloft and Effexor have refused to disclose the details of most clinical trials involving depressed children, denying doctors and parents crucial evidence as they weigh fresh fears that such medicines may cause some children to become suicidal. The companies say the studies are trade secrets. Researchers familiar with the unpublished data said the majority of secret trials show that children taking the medicines did not get any better than children taking dummy pills. ... There is some speculation that MAOI's work specificaly becouse they foster growth of brain cells. (If I remember correctly it's in the Hipocampus). I am not in any way an athority here (everything I know about Depression and MAOI's I learned from SA), but as a layman it would seem, that since children's brains have a greater amount of growth and development, that MAOI's would, while increasing Seritonin, not have as much effect on growth. Personaly I think that scientific information, discoveries should never be secret. I had a physics prof who had a pattent on an solution to a class of equations. (don't remember details), So, everyone now knows the information, can use the solution in their work, but if they use the solution in a way that generates income, they owe him for it. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Brin: best SF e-zine?
That web site as you probably can tell is the web presence of the Sci- Fi channel, and Sci-Fi Mag. I don't know what your deffinition of mainline SF magazines is, but I would think that this particulare one, while not what I would consider to be mainline, it's kind of in the oposite direction on that axis from the direction your request seemd to imply you were requesting. --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Davd Brin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Yeah, they seem a good idea. Thrive! db --- Lalith Vipulananthan [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: We're thinking about where to send it OTHER than the mainline SF magazines. Do any of you have any familiarity with the newer e-zines that are out there? Do any seem hot and with-it? Mixing good fiction with say, media coverage that brings in a young crowd? Martin Lewis suggests http://www.scifi.com/scifiction/ as the answer to your query. Hope this helps. Lal ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l = . . * Please note. My email address of many years is changing FROM [EMAIL PROTECTED] TO [EMAIL PROTECTED] ... (Or else use [EMAIL PROTECTED]) ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: More good reasons to Distrust Corporations and Drug Companies
Personaly I think that scientific information, discoveries should never be secret. I had a physics prof who had a pattent on an solution to a class of equations. (don't remember details), So, everyone now knows the information, can use the solution in their work, but if they use the solution in a way that generates income, they owe him for it. I didn't realize you could patent the truth. I thought patents were for inventions and discoveries. To patent an equation would be like patenting a syllogism - it strikes me as permitting someone to claim that he invented a truth rather than described it. Tom Beck www.mercerjewishsingles.org I always knew I'd see the first man on the Moon. I never dreamed I'd see the last. - Dr Jerry Pournelle ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Brin: LotR and Conservatives
But I do not think that he is focusing on that ~part~. Both are equaly valid points using the same story for analogy. It is perfectly fine to have both be valid. If you take from the discussion that ~conservatism~ is not at all what modern Republicans are practicing, then it is a very insitefull and refreshing read. If instead you take from the discussion that a look-backwards mentality is good, then, well, maybe that was never the point. Is it not possible to be conservative and yet not to have a look- backwards mentality? The Republican party of today, if placed in the situation of the civil war, would fall more on the side of the South than on the North. ...They claim to be conservative, but in reality are not, the democrats may claim to be Libral, but in reality are not. Both are two sides of the same coin, and both with extremists mutating the parties. The Republicans came to power on the idea of shrinking governemnt, but now are doing the opposit, what they have actualy done is shift what the money is spent on. The real issue here is that the terms do not apply. I would say that a conservative would be in favor of a maximum work day, a legal limit to the amount of time that one can spend working in one day. If everyone is limmited to an 8 hour day, then every compnay would have an equal playing felild. One could not request (or require) workers to work 16 hour days, just to get some particular project done in time to meet some arbitrary date. It would create a society which focused on the quality of life of the individual. But no Republican would ever be in favor of such a plan, and most democrats would scauf at it. It all depends on what part of conservative you are talking about. I would also say that a libral would be in favor of a requirment for each person to have employment. There are plenty of things that need to get done that are going undone. Streets need to be repaired, sidewalks cleaned, public buildings re-painted, homes built for the homeless, planets explored... but would any Democrat actualy go for this? Republican? After all it sounds a lot like the old, new deal. And Rosevelt was a conservative was he not? I don't think he missed the point, I just think he was makening a differnt one. --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Davd Brin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Heh. Of course I think he misses the point. It is not so much conservatism as it is romanticism... though certainly the two have a major amount of psychological overlap in their grouchy, look0backwards mentality. If you care to, drop back at that guy's blog and refer folks to http://www.davidbrin.com/tolkienarticle1.html It's still the most visited page at my site! Thanks good luck. db = . . * Please note. My email address of many years is changing FROM [EMAIL PROTECTED] TO [EMAIL PROTECTED] ... (Or else use [EMAIL PROTECTED]) ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: More good reasons to Distrust Corporations and Drug Companies
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Personaly I think that scientific information, discoveries should never be secret. I had a physics prof who had a pattent on an solution to a class of equations. (don't remember details), So, everyone now knows the information, can use the solution in their work, but if they use the solution in a way that generates income, they owe him for it. I didn't realize you could patent the truth. I thought patents were for inventions and discoveries. To patent an equation would be like patenting a syllogism - it strikes me as permitting someone to claim that he invented a truth rather than described it. Not the equation, a method for ~solving~ a family of equations. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: More good reasons to Distrust Corporations and Drug Companies
In a message dated 1/29/04 5:20:14 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Not the equation, a method for ~solving~ a family of equations. But that's still a description of the natural universe - the method is as much part of mathematics as the equations themselves. It exists independent of the person discovering it. It's like figuring out gravity or finding a subatomic particle. You didn't invent it - it was always there. That's nothing at all like inventing a machine or concocting a process or combining various elements into a new pharmaceutical. You can, in my opinion, get _credit_ for figuring out a mathematical method, but how in heck can you _patent_ it? Tom Beck www.mercerjewishsingles.org I always knew I'd see the first man on the Moon. I never dreamed I'd see the last. - Dr Jerry Pournelle ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Br!n: LotR and Conservatives
Still, I do know this. The democrats are varied. You'll get some bright, some not. But the Goppers have driven away all the homosapiens from their upper echelons. There are no more Dwight Eisenhowers and Barry Goldwaters. It's all frat boys, top to bottom. 1) From Jefferson to Kerry, frat boys (that is, members of the power elite) have had a disproportionate influence on Democrats too. (Though they do not have a strangle-hold on the party.) 2) Ever since Lincoln, power elites have been more important among Republicans than Democrats, but that's kind of what one would expect. 3) The Republican power-elites have changed. Today it is well nigh impossible to be what was once called a Rockefeller Republican, though it is where I would expect frat boys to accumulate ideologically. There is a confluence between the neo-Calvinist power-elite frat boy who believes in the inviolable moral right to any and all accumulated property and captial and the Christian coalitionist. Of course, the Christian coalition has historically had a hard time pushing their agenda when it conflicted with capital uber alles. Under Shrubby, the Christian coalition seems to be doing substantially better than under any previous Republican administration. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Tg Territories
Trent Shipley wrote: In _Startide Rising_, there's a reference to the _Canaan Colonies_ that can be defended by the Tymbrimi. Maybe these are the colonies [notice the plural!] around Alpha Centauri. The plural suggests that there could be two [or three] of them, around desolate worlds in that system. Yes we could, if I hadn't already taken the time to write up Easter. There was also mention in GU1 of the Cygnus Colonies. I had always assumed that both the Canaan and Cygnus colonies were unspecified subsets of the colonies already listed. I have never heard about those Cygnus Colonies Also, you will recall that the problem wasn't that we couldn't come up with 10 major colonies. We had a perfect count. 1-Atlast: 2-Calafia: 3-Deemi: 4-Dezni: 5-Garth: 6-Horst: 7-Mars: 8-Omnivarium: 9-NuDawn (Mudaun in Gal-7): 10-Venus: I think we all agreed that Mars and Venus couldn't count as colonies. The problem was that we wanted 10 major *leases*, and only had 9. 1-Atlast: 2-Calafia: 3-Deemi: 4-Dezni: 5-Earth: 6-Garth: 7-Horst: 8-Omnivarium: 9-NuDawn (Mudaun in Gal-7): Earth is not a lease, Earth is homeworld. By adding desolate worlds and arbitarilly declaring them to be the Canaan Colonies we fail to solve the problem of producing a major lease. We add so many colonies it is hard to reconcile the fan-fic with the source. But it's quite clear that there must be a Terragens outpost in Alpha Centauri: it's the closest star, the target of one of the two first extra-solar expeditions, and where Terra found that and ET Civilization had existed in the past. Worse, we may tread on DB's toes if he wanted (as I believe) the Canaan Colonies to consist of some sub-set of the 9 cannonical leashold worlds. Ok, maybe we can go back to context. Which colonies are _not_ part of the Canaan Colonies? (a) Calafia, Omnivarium, Hermes, and Atlast are not, because they are mentioned in the same context as the Canaan Colonies in SR, Ch7 (b) Calafia (again) and Horst are not, because they are mentioned in the same context as Canaan [as a single word] in HR, Part3, Harry (c) Garth is not, because Garth is isolated So we end up with Deemi, Dezni and NuDawn. Interesting: I found a reference to Dezni: the Buyur imported the wuankworm from Dezni to Jijo! [BR, during Lark Ling first trip, when the danik robot finds and fights with Reti's bird-robot] If we can safely exclude NuDawn and Dezni from being among the Canaan Colonies, then Deemi _can't_ be one of them, because one world does not a collection of worlds make O:-) I $hould have been a lawyer instead of a spaceship pilot :-/ Alberto Monteiro ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Uplift Timeline
Trent Shipley wrote: The timeline has been very slightly modified to accomodate two literary coincidences that should bother no one but Alberto. Yes, such coincidences bother me :-) 1492: Discovery of the Americas 1961: Yuri Gagarin in space 2211: First contact, 500 years after 1961 (Over Alberto M.'s vigorous objection that it should remain 2212.) That's because I don't like to contradict written material - not that one year plus or less will change too many things. BTW, this is one reason why I'd rather use CE dates instead of Contact dates: it's easy to mess with AxC and BxC dates and introduce typographical errors, but it's more difficult to change the now-set-in-stone dates of Sundiver, Startide Rising and Heaven's Reach. 2492: Action resumes with the next Uplift Novel, 1000 years after discovery of the Americas. Added entry that Cuthmar reaches Earth in 2212. Ok, maybe we can assume that the encounter with the Tymbrimi was so close to the New Year that the date became ambiguous. If, say, we had an encounter at December 29, would it make sense to start a New Era in that year, or wait two days and start it in the next New Year? [there are many references to 300 Jijo Years of Human Occupation in Jijo, but I can always assume that 300 is a close approximation to 280] Done. See entry. [NB. We are now talking about at most 225 years of Humans on Jijo. Can you reconcile the timelines?] Huh? 225 _Earth_ Years correpond to 281.25 Jijo Years, more or less [because Jijo's Year is (multi-luni)-solar]. Jijo's Timeline is written in Jijo Years, because that's what they use. revised timeline follows. [By the way, this has been a lot of work. Do we want DB's imprimateur?] Not until we have full support of the College of Cardinals :-) Alberto Monteiro ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
War in Iraq unnecessary?
The Army War College thinks the Bush Administration has been ignoring Afghanistan in its zeal to go after Iraq. Army War College essay calls Iraq war 'distraction' By THOMAS E. RICKS Washington Post WASHINGTON -- A scathing new report published by the Army War College broadly criticizes the Bush administration's handling of the war on terrorism, accusing it of taking a detour into an unnecessary war in Iraq and pursuing an unrealistic quest against terrorism that may lead to U.S. wars with states that pose no serious threat . The report, by visiting professor Jeffrey Record, who is on the faculty of the Air War College at Maxwell Air Force Base, Ala., warns that as a result of those mistakes, the Army is near the breaking point. It recommends, among other things, scaling back the scope of the global war on terrorism and instead focusing on the narrower threat posed by the al-Qaida terrorist network. [The] global war on terrorism as currently defined and waged is dangerously indiscriminate and ambitious, and accordingly . . . its parameters should be readjusted, Record writes. Currently, he adds, the anti-terrorism campaign is strategically unfocused, promises more than it can deliver, and threatens to dissipate U.S. military resources in an endless and hopeless search for absolute security. Record, a veteran defense specialist and author of six books on military strategy and related issues, was an aide to former Sen. Sam Nunn when the Georgia Democrat was chairman of the Senate Armed Services Committee. His essay, published by the Army War College's Strategic Studies Institute, carries the standard disclaimer that its views are those of the author and don't necessarily represent those of the Army, the Pentagon, or the U.S. government. But retired Army Col. Douglas C. Lovelace Jr., the director of the Army War College's Strategic Studies Institute, whose Web site carries Record's 56-page monograph, hardly distanced himself from it. I think that the substance that Jeff brings out in the article really, really needs to be considered, he said. Academic freedom Publication of the essay was approved by the Army War College's commandant, Maj. Gen. David H. Huntoon Jr., Lovelace said. He said he and Huntoon expected the study to be controversial, but added, He considers it to be under the umbrella of academic freedom. Larry DiRita, the top Pentagon spokesman, said he had not read the Record study. He added: If the conclusion is that we need to be scaling back in the global war on terrorism, it's not likely to be on my reading list anytime soon. A 'war of choice' Many of Record's arguments, such as the contention that Saddam Hussein's Iraq was deterred and did not present a threat, have been made before by critics of the administration. Iraq, he concludes, was a war-of-choice distraction from the war of necessity against al-Qaida. But it is unusual to have such views published by the War College, the Army's premier academic institution. In addition, the essay goes further than many critics in examining the Bush administration's handling of the war on terrorism. Record's core criticism is that the administration is biting off more than it can chew. A cardinal rule of strategy is to keep your enemies to a manageable number, he writes. He scoffs at the administration's policy of seeking to transform and democratize the Middle East. The essay concludes with several recommendations. Some are fairly non-controversial, such as increasing the size of the Army and the Marine Corps. But he also says the United States should scale back its ambitions and be prepared to settle for a friendly autocracy rather than a genuine democracy in Iraq. Tom Beck www.mercerjewishsingles.org I always knew I'd see the first man on the Moon. I never dreamed I'd see the last. - Dr Jerry Pournelle ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Brin: LotR and Conservatives
In a message dated 1/29/2004 3:45:07 PM US Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: But the Goppers have driven away all the homosapiens from their upper echelons. There are no more Dwight Eisenhowers and Barry Goldwaters. It's all frat boys, top to bottom. That's why our new Guv Ahnold frightens them so much. Not ONLY might he breed a new generation of BULLETPROOF KENNEDYS! But his inclusive and honest version of republicanism is the spectre of a branch of the party that the frat boys had been so sure they had made extinct. db I tend to be conservitive, but absolutely a GDI and not a frat boy. I ran screaming from being registered Republican when Arizona had Evan Mecham. I also tend to frighten both Left and Right by almost always answering, I agree. Now HOW do we without causing _. (That's my own personal definition of being Conservitive. Always search for the unintended consequences. TANSTAAFL to all entitlements and I'll quote from Opus to anyone who disagrees.) And the Alvin / Dor-hinuf stories will never be written with any political slant. Except more freedom for Hoon, Rousit, Earthclan, Pring, William Taylor (And our good Dr. knows what I think about Jijo and LotR. :-) ) ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Doing Business With The Enemy
In a message dated 1/28/2004 9:14:26 PM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Maybe. But since Qaddafi said to Berlusconi I will do whatever the Americans want, because I saw what happened in Iraq and I am afraid it seems like there's a more plausible explanation. I swear, Bob, if President Bush walked across the Potomac you'd declare it was proof that he couldn't swim. I was only referring to an op ed article that explicitly refuted the claim about the effect of the war on the negotiation. Remember I supported the war and still do. I think getting rid of Sadam was a good thing. I believe that our willingness to go to war has changed the dynamics in the mideast and around the world. I have never claimed nor do I believe that the invasion is all about oil. I don't buy the notion that conservatives are only interested in lining their pockets. But if you want me to admit that I really dislike Bush I am happy to do so. He and his cronies have mishandled the run up to the war and its aftermath. They are arrogant and high handed. They believe they are right and don't think they have to convince anyone either inside or outside the US that this is so. They are quite willing to play fast and lose with the laws that they claim to be upholding. The Bush economic plan is a disaster. I am no economist but from what I have read economists do not think his cuts are in any healthy. And yet he and his administration do not even have the courage of their convictions. They cut taxes but are unwilling to cut spending. The war will cost billions. How can one cut taxes in the face of this new responsibility. They have passed a medicare drug bill which will cost billions as well but have offered no plan to pay for it. This is all so cynical that it makes me sick. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
vatican head astronomer - lecture
http://kuow.org/Full_Program_Story.asp?NewsPage_Action=Find('ID','4972')
George Coyne, the vatican head astronomer talking about the universe, science, god,
and sherlock holmes.
Good stuff.
-j-
___
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Re: christianism is evil, why it must be eradicated
Dan Minette wrote: FWIW, I just saw a census article that stated that there is now a net outflux of Americans from California. The rise in the California population is due to the difference in the birth and death rate and immigration from outside of the country. _Now_ there is, after so many came for so many years from within and without the country (aned including myself, some 33 years ago). It used to be that less than 50% of California citizens were actually natives and it wouldn't surprise me if that were still the case. Did the artcle say anything about that? -- Doug ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: new wonder drug scours arteries clean
Julia Thompson wrote: Maybe the US government should be involved in drug research, then? Because either a corporation is doing the research or the government is. (If there's another alternative I'm overlooking, please mention it.) How about a system of government sponsored awards based on the value of the discovery? -- Doug ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Continuing Education
On Tue, 4 Nov 2003 20:57:26 -0600, Robert Seeberger [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: http://www.csi.edu/ip/ce/yesology/ The power of devotion.G I wouldn't be touting Owner of a Lonely Heart as a product of arguably the most talented rock band of all time, but that's just me... -- Doug ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: new wonder drug scours arteries clean
On , Julia Thompson wrote: Maybe the US government should be involved in drug research, then? Because either a corporation is doing the research or the government is. (If there's another alternative I'm overlooking, please mention it.) How about a system of government-sponsored rewards based on the value of the discovery? -- Doug ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Fwd: Re: new wonder drug scours arteries clean
On , Julia Thompson wrote: Maybe the US government should be involved in drug research, then? Because either a corporation is doing the research or the government is. (If there's another alternative I'm overlooking, please mention it.) How about a system of government-sponsored rewards based on the value of the discovery? -- Doug ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Doing Business With The Enemy
In a message dated 1/28/2004 10:26:18 PM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: And of course, all those years of negotiation going back to the Clinton Administration just happened to break through at the same time that Hussein was being toppled.And indeed, coincidentally at the very same time the Iranians were deciding to come clean about their own program.And indeed, coincidentally the Syrians even made an (albeit much less serious than those from their Iranian or Libyan counterparts) initiative to come clean about their own program. But of course, all of the above is just one giant happy coincidence reflecting the fruits of St. Clinton's hard work and dilligence, right? John I am simply summarizing an article in the NYT written by someone who was directly involved in the negotiations under Bush. He did not claim that it reflected the fruits of Clinton's hard work but he did acknowledge that the process began under Clinton. So don't make this out to be me trying to give Bill credit for something he did not do. Lybia agreed to deal because it was in their economic interests to do so. That is why they gave up the Lockerbee planners (well before Iraq). Did the war help this process along? Very likely. But without the prior negotiations it would not have happened and it probably would have happened any way. Note once again I was in favor of the war and believe that it will influence renegades to be more responsible but one military action no matter how large will not win the day for us. We need diplomacy cooperation and patience ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Doing Business With The Enemy
In a message dated 1/28/2004 11:39:15 PM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: In all seriousness, I still don't get it. Other than such displays of force, what do you think a Qaddafi would respond to? As far as I can tell, _nothing_ except force is likely to get results from someone like him. Money. He wants to get back into the world economy and knows this is the only way. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Continuing Education
- Original Message - From: Doug Pensinger [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Killer Bs Discussion [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, January 29, 2004 7:24 PM Subject: Re: Continuing Education On Tue, 4 Nov 2003 20:57:26 -0600, Robert Seeberger [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: http://www.csi.edu/ip/ce/yesology/ The power of devotion.G I wouldn't be touting Owner of a Lonely Heart as a product of arguably the most talented rock band of all time, but that's just me... I wouldn't either. I would tout Tales From Topographic Oceans or Relayer. xponent The Best Stuff Is Not On The Greatest Hits Album Maru rob ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: christianism is evil, why it must be eradicated
Many moons ago, I wrote: Dan Minette wrote: FWIW, I just saw a census article that stated that there is now a net outflux of Americans from California. The rise in the California population is due to the difference in the birth and death rate and immigration from outside of the country. _Now_ there is, after so many came for so many years from within and without the country (aned including myself, some 33 years ago). It used to be that less than 50% of California citizens were actually natives and it wouldn't surprise me if that were still the case. Did the artcle say anything about that? Why did these messages - all of which have already been posted to the list some time ago, all of a sudden show up again? -- Doug ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Continuing Education
Robert wrote: - Original Message - From: Doug Pensinger [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Killer Bs Discussion [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, January 29, 2004 7:24 PM Subject: Re: Continuing Education On Tue, 4 Nov 2003 20:57:26 -0600, Robert Seeberger [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: http://www.csi.edu/ip/ce/yesology/ The power of devotion.G I wouldn't be touting Owner of a Lonely Heart as a product of arguably the most talented rock band of all time, but that's just me... I wouldn't either. I would tout Tales From Topographic Oceans or Relayer. xponent The Best Stuff Is Not On The Greatest Hits Album Maru rob Did you just write this Rob, or is this the Brin-l version of ESPN Classic? If its the latter, I question the selection of classic material. -- Doug ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
SCOUTED: Georgia on my mind . . .
http://www.ajc.com/metro/content/metro/0104/29curriculum.html -- Ronn! :) ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Continuing Education
- Original Message - From: Doug Pensinger [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Killer Bs Discussion [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, January 29, 2004 8:35 PM Subject: Re: Continuing Education On Thu, 29 Jan 2004 20:22:09 -0600, Robert Seeberger [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I just wrote it. You question my Yespertise? G No not at all, but I wrote that post several weeks ago, I'm almost positive that not only was it posted to the list, but you responded to it back when it was sent too. ??? I think I have something strange going on locally. I recieved one message that I sent to myself some weeks ago and also one I sent the culture list a while back. I figured your outbox was magically refilling itself, but I couldn't resist responding to my favorite subject. G xponent This Thing Is Loaded Maru rob ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Doing Business With The Enemy
--- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In a message dated 1/28/2004 11:39:15 PM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: In all seriousness, I still don't get it. Other than such displays of force, what do you think a Qaddafi would respond to? As far as I can tell, _nothing_ except force is likely to get results from someone like him. Money. He wants to get back into the world economy and knows this is the only way. Maybe. If so he is fairly unique among dictators. Saddam Hussein and Kim Jong Il, to pick two, are unlikely to have been influenced by access to the world economy. And if that had really been enough, he would have done it a long, long time ago. Also, if that was really his motivation, he would have contacted the French or the Russians. But that's not whom he approached first, which all by itself is pretty indicative. = Gautam Mukunda [EMAIL PROTECTED] Freedom is not free http://www.mukunda.blogspot.com __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free web site building tool. Try it! http://webhosting.yahoo.com/ps/sb/ ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Brin: LotR and Conservatives
At 02:43 PM 1/29/2004 -0800 Davd Brin wrote: Conservatives are even stranger. Ever notice how many have pictures of Martin Luther King on their walls now? They cooo at Condaleeza Rice and would 99% vote for Colin Powell for president. They ARE capable of change. They just have two priorities. 1) no MORE change. Keep the reforms of yesteryear.. but then modify them so that... 2) the top 20,000 frat brothers and golf buddies can get richer and richer without providing any goods or services. Fie. These 'movements' are not worthy of 21st century minds. Still, I do know this. The democrats are varied. You'll get some bright, some not. But the Goppers have driven away all the homosapiens from their upper echelons. There are no more Dwight Eisenhowers and Barry Goldwaters. It's all frat boys, top to bottom. I really am stunned at amazed Dr. Brin at how you can continue to give conservatives such short shrift. I think the best empirical evidence that falsifies your above conclusions is to simply compare the number of public policy think tanks on the right vs. those of the left.Many leftists have recently publicly mourned the relative lack of ideas from the left compared to those of the right. Allow me to present a a few brief examples of the sort of ideas being spawned, developed, and promoted from the right at places like Cato, Heritage, and AEI: School Vouchers Military Transformation Emissions Trading Medical Savings Accounts Social Security Privitization In previous incarnations of this discussion, you have somehow managed to attribute every idea in the world to the left. But I propose a simple theorem here: each and every one of the above ideas is supported by more Congressional Republicans than Congressional Democrats.Moreover, opposition to each and every one of the above ideas has a center of gravity planted firmly among left-leaning liberal Democrats. And yet, where is the left-wing plan for fighting terroism and enhancing homeland security?Where is the leftist plan for education other than writing blank checks? Where is the left-wing plan on the environment, other than ever-more draconian regulation? Where is the left-wing plan for keeping Medicare and Social Security solvent other than hiking taxes? If those are the left-wing solutions that you deem worthy of twenty-first century minds, then I am more than happy to have freed my mind from the failed solutions of the past. JDG ___ John D. Giorgis - [EMAIL PROTECTED] The liberty we prize is not America's gift to the world, it is God's gift to humanity. - George W. Bush 1/29/03 ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Brin: Arnold
That's why our new Guv Ahnold frightens them so much. Not ONLY might he breed a new generation of BULLETPROOF KENNEDYS! But his inclusive and honest version of republicanism is the spectre of a branch of the party that the frat boys had been so sure they had made extinct. db When I first read this, I could put my finger on my objections to this, but now I've realized what it is: If anything, it is the Republican frat boys themselves who must like the Arnold Schwarzeneggar branch of the Party. After all, what are Arnold's key issues?Lower taxes and less government spending - pretty much boiler-plate Republican frat-boy wing issues. Now, what are the key objections among Republicans to Arnold's candidacy? It's that he's pro-choice, very likely pro-gay-marriage, not particularly beholden to promoting abstinence education, and not particularly religious. Let's be clear here, it is not the frat-boy wing of the Republican Party (to the extent that it even exists) that is getting outraged about the possibility of a high-profile pro-choice, socially liberal, etc. etc. Republican. Rather, it is the grass roots of the Republican Party that is beholden to the social conservative platform from which most GOP objections to arise. JDG - Who notes that George W. Bush and his allies played a strong role in pushing socially conservative Republicans aside in California to clear the decks for Arnold's candidacy. ___ John D. Giorgis - [EMAIL PROTECTED] The liberty we prize is not America's gift to the world, it is God's gift to humanity. - George W. Bush 1/29/03 ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Brin: LotR and Conservatives
From: John D. Giorgis [EMAIL PROTECTED] I think the best empirical evidence that falsifies your above conclusions is to simply compare the number of public policy think tanks on the right vs. those of the left. All funded by Billionaire Right-Wing Sugar Daddies, Like Moon, Sciafe, Ahmanson, Coors. Many leftists have recently publicly mourned the relative lack of ideas from the left compared to those of the right. Um. No. One of the dumbest things you've ever said. Allow me to present a a few brief examples of the sort of ideas being spawned, developed, and promoted from the right at places like Cato, Heritage, and AEI: School Vouchers Oh yes, lets take 33% of the money going to public schools and give it to 1% of the population, and send them to schools that hostile to science and evolution. Lets just discard that whole first amendment whatsit. Military Transformation Sure, lets take our lean mean capable machine, and bloat it up, and draft people who don't particularly want to serve. Those draftees who will be coming (after the election) will be SO much better of a fighting force than the voluntary one we have now. Emissions Trading Sure lets do more to help destroy the planet. I mean with that whole armegediin thingamgo we don't need to be stewards and property caretakers, we loot and pillage and destroy as much as we want. Medical Savings Accounts Great, Lets give the rich even _more_ tax shelters that they can use to transfer all of their wealth into and pass on to their children. I love these feudal lords we have. I really do. Social Security Privitization Yay, lets make it so when the stock market fluctuates or crashes, _entire_ demographic sections of the population will become destitute. Useless eaters anyway. In previous incarnations of this discussion, you have somehow managed to attribute every idea in the world to the left. But I propose a simple theorem here: each and every one of the above ideas is supported by more Congressional Republicans than Congressional Democrats.Moreover, opposition to each and every one of the above ideas has a center of gravity planted firmly among left-leaning liberal Democrats. Because the world faced fascism once, and we want to prevent it from ever happening again. And yet, where is the left-wing plan for fighting terroism and enhancing homeland security?Where is the leftist plan for education other than writing blank checks? Where is the left-wing plan on the environment, other than ever-more draconian regulation? Where is the left-wing plan for keeping Medicare and Social Security solvent other than hiking taxes? If we roll back the Shrub tax cuts for the millionaires the entire deficit goes away. No amount of 'spending' cuts, discretionary and/or mandatory does that. If those are the left-wing solutions that you deem worthy of twenty-first century minds, then I am more than happy to have freed my mind from the failed solutions of the past. Evil lives on... ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: christianism is evil, why it must be eradicated
Doug Pensinger wrote: Many moons ago, I wrote: Dan Minette wrote: FWIW, I just saw a census article that stated that there is now a net outflux of Americans from California. The rise in the California population is due to the difference in the birth and death rate and immigration from outside of the country. _Now_ there is, after so many came for so many years from within and without the country (aned including myself, some 33 years ago). It used to be that less than 50% of California citizens were actually natives and it wouldn't surprise me if that were still the case. Did the artcle say anything about that? Why did these messages - all of which have already been posted to the list some time ago, all of a sudden show up again? Dunno. Did you check your outbox? Might be something weird with your e-mail program. That would be my best guess. Then again, I'm probably brain-fried right now, so what do *I* know? :P Julia ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Brin: LotR and Conservatives
Military Transformation Sure, lets take our lean mean capable machine, and bloat it up, and draft people who don't particularly want to serve. Those draftees who will be coming (after the election) will be SO much better of a fighting force than the voluntary one we have now. You tell 'em! We DEFINITELY don't need more soldiers in uniform, or giving them more cost of living benefits! Nor do we need to spend money on researching the next generation of equipment! Who needs the M8 AGS when we have (dramatic pause)..the Stryker! All joking aside, if you feel that we do not need to expand the Army in light of current operations and demands, I'd reccommend you do a little more study on the subject. This summer a brigade from the PA National Guard is being rotated to serve with IFOR. IIRC this is the first mission of its type since Korea. When the US government has to start tapping guard assets in order to relieve regular army units, then I think we have a manpower problem. I've stated before that we DO need more troops, and I opposed the deep cuts the Clinton administration forced on the Armed Forces from the beginning. Simply put, the Clinton administration cut so deep that the Army of today is unable to fulfil the objective the Clinton administration set for it: to deal with two crises at once. Damon. = Damon Agretto [EMAIL PROTECTED] Qui desiderat pacem, praeparet bellum. http://www.geocities.com/garrand.geo/index.html Now Building: __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free web site building tool. Try it! http://webhosting.yahoo.com/ps/sb/ ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: War in Iraq unnecessary?
At 06:34 PM 1/29/04, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Larry DiRita, the top Pentagon spokesman, I'm sorry, but that name does make it hard to take him seriously . . . -- Ronn! :) ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Brin: LotR and Conservatives
At 09:50 PM 1/29/04, David Hobby wrote: In my experience, real scholars avoid administrative work like the plague! True! (I should know, it's my turn to be Chair...) Is it only coincidence that the position is named after an object which most people sit on and some people put their feet on? -- Ronn! :) ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Brin: LotR and Conservatives
The Fool wrote: ... I think the best empirical evidence that falsifies your above conclusions is to simply compare the number of public policy think tanks on the right vs. those of the left. All funded by Billionaire Right-Wing Sugar Daddies, Like Moon, Sciafe, Ahmanson, Coors. That was my gut reaction, but then I got stuck trying to figure out how the Cato Institute was funded. Do you have anything to back this up? ... Emissions Trading Sure lets do more to help destroy the planet. I mean with that whole armegediin thingamgo we don't need to be stewards and property caretakers, we loot and pillage and destroy as much as we want. ... Wait a minute, I LIKE economic solutions to social problems. Properly done, emissions trading would help to make the market more responsive to environmental costs. (Improperly done, it could be an easy way to weaken environmental laws. But you can't really blame that on the idea itself.) ---David Posting on politics = avoiding work? ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Brin: LotR and Conservatives
--- The Fool [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: All funded by Billionaire Right-Wing Sugar Daddies, Like Moon, Sciafe, Ahmanson, Coors. As opposed to left-wing ones like Soros? God knows there are so many billionaires behind defense transformation :-) Many leftists have recently publicly mourned the relative lack of ideas from the left compared to those of the right. Um. No. One of the dumbest things you've ever said. Not at all. I'm sure he can dig up cites if you want, but that's a fairly common complaint on the left. I've heard plenty of people make it. There's a whole think tank that has just been founded to try and fix that problem. Military Transformation Sure, lets take our lean mean capable machine, and bloat it up, and draft people who don't particularly want to serve. Those draftees who will be coming (after the election) will be SO much better of a fighting force than the voluntary one we have now. Fool, let me suggest something. Learn a tiny little bit about a topic before you make comments like this. Because the world faced fascism once, and we want to prevent it from ever happening again. Yes, 6 million dead Jews is definitely the same thing as Retirement Savings Accounts. Do you have any idea how stupid and offensive that sort of comparison is? If we roll back the Shrub tax cuts for the millionaires the entire deficit goes away. No amount of 'spending' cuts, discretionary and/or mandatory does that. Again, learn something about the topic. This is factually not true. = Gautam Mukunda [EMAIL PROTECTED] Freedom is not free http://www.mukunda.blogspot.com __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free web site building tool. Try it! http://webhosting.yahoo.com/ps/sb/ ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Brin: LotR and Conservatives
--- David Hobby [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: You are probably right, if International Relations qualifies as an academic field. Technically it does, since it is studied at colleges. But it seems too politicized for me to grant it much respect. As someone who just finished applying for PhD programs in the field, I suppose I should take offense at this. But of course it is politicized. It is the study of _politics_. God forbid that we should try to explore the most important questions facing the human race for fear of violating someone's idea of pure academia. Also note that being Dean is NOT an academic position, it is administrative. The same goes for Ms. Rice's work as Provost: Not at Nitze. The _current_ Dean of Nitze is Eliot Cohen, one of the best political scientists in the world. Being Dean of Nitze is a very big deal - in the same league of prestige as being head of the Weatherhead CFIA or the Kennedy School of Government at Harvard. The most famous head of Weatherhead is Sam Huntington, the two most famous KSG Deans are Graham Allison and Joe Nye. That's a pretty high league to play in. ---David In my experience, real scholars avoid administrative work like the plague! (I should know, it's my turn to be Chair...) Of? = Gautam Mukunda [EMAIL PROTECTED] Freedom is not free http://www.mukunda.blogspot.com __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free web site building tool. Try it! http://webhosting.yahoo.com/ps/sb/ ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Brin: LotR and Conservatives
I should have known better. Sigh. I said that left-vs.right is a cosmically stupid way for immature political minds to identify themselves... and you guys rush right ahead and blare me right and me proud! D'uh! In 20 years not one person I know has given a cogent explanation of what it's even supposed to mean except MY SIDE! Dig it, the only way we will get anywhere is by questioning assumptions... and that starts with YOUR OWN! Anyone who surrounds himself with yes-men or hews to an us-vs-them dichotomy is an enemy of our civilization's survival in the 21st Century. To that end I have given chiding, assumption-demolishing speeches to everybody from the Libertarians http://www.davidbrin.com/opinionarticles.html to the World Federalist society to the DLC. See http://www.davidbrin.com/progressparadoxarticle.html to go figure where I stand politically! But in fact, I do have one 'standard' political opinion. That the current GOP is dominated by kleptocratic frat boys with NO other agenda but stealing 4 TRILLION DOLLARS from our grandchildren. You will find NO policy of theirs that violates this fundamental principle. Not one. Don't give me the notion that they are the party of enterprise. SEVEN INDUSTRIES were de-regulated during the last 30 years. ONLY ONE of them at the behest of republicans. That was Energy. Though Bush's dad did oversee the Saving Loan debacle. All the other attempts at D regulation in this century were done by democrats. Likewise balanced budgets under Clinton. Gore's reinventing govt program to cut paperwork by 1/3 and so on. The ONLY people pursuing help to small business were on the supposed left. Ideas? You actually claim these lazy bums have ideas? (GOP presidents used to take 3X as many vacation days as dem prexies. Till W. He has upped it to 4X, including the longest presidential vacation ever, that was rudely interrupted by 9/11.) Oh. School VOUCHERS! Wow! BIG IDEA! Huge! How magnificent. Why, it makes all of the following ideas pale in comparison. Containing communism public universities medical research exploring space exploring the oceans saving the bald eagle and other endangered species increasing basic literacy from 15% to 95% and college attendance from 2% to nearly 50% rural electrification fiber optics opposing fascism and defeating Hitler promoting democracy overseas antitrust rules to encourage market competition supporting Israel civil rights bringing women into echelons of power ensuring that all children go to school freedom of information sunshine laws letting citizens view their own credit records the Internet increasing the number of engineers, doctors and scientists 1000 fold social security reducing or eliminating the lock on power and justice that local gentry had in every village, from the dawn of civilization nuclear power, solar power, modern wind and geothermal power professionalizing the police resisting Japanese imperial ambitions before during WWII lifting both our allies enemies back up after war NATO Yup. Those were pretty lame things... because every single one of them arose out of Democratic administrations. GOP big ideas? I have fought and struggled to find those that they not only preached but followed through on. I found two. Nixon to China The Interstate Highway system. (Though the latter was already under discussion under Roosevelt, I'll give Ike this one.) Dang, you DARE to call Condaleeza Rice bright? The advisor who let W drive Iran into the arms of the mullahs with that axis of evil' stupidity, JUST when Khatami was gaining power and we were going to need Iran's help against Saddam? I might call her Kissinger level if she had done the OPPOSITE, persuaded W to fly to Teheran, make peace (over the mullah's spinning bodies but to the joy of average Iranians, and then use THEIR troops to do the heavy lifting while we paved the way to Basra with smart bombs. Instead, these 'friends of the military' (only Powell ever served anything but as a draft dodger) are putting our military under the worst strain in its history, hemhorraging losses from non-reinlistments, and creating a preparedness gap worse than before Pearl Harbor. Don't you DARE compare this Iraq War with Clinton! Clinton and Clark ran the most successful war in US history. A long, grinding struggle that was more than half diplomatic, patiently chivvying the Europeans until at last they gave up and let us lead. The result? 1) A Europe that is at peace, with law, everywhere for the first time in 4,000 years. 2) Not ONE American boy dead. Hell, I'm not against getting Saddam outta there. What I am against is doing it so damned stupidly. These bozos almost destroyed the Western Alliance, DELIBERATELY pissing in the faces of allies because it feels good to frat boys to piss in the faces of nerds. Note these are the SAME EXACT bozos (well, a different Bush) who MADE SADDAM. Who propped him up. coaxed and supported
Re: Brin: LotR and Conservatives
--- Davd Brin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Dang, you DARE to call Condaleeza Rice bright? The advisor who let W drive Iran into the arms of the mullahs with that axis of evil' stupidity, JUST when Khatami was gaining power and we were going to need Iran's help against Saddam? Dr. Brin, do you ever acknowledge the intelligence of anyone who disagrees with you? I mean, I don't argue that you're dumb just because (frankly) your American history is rather poor. Do you you think it strengthens your argument to call her stupid? Really? I might respond to this further, but I'm not sure it's possible to have a reasonable discussion. I would ask one thing, though. You criticize the lack of military service in the Bush Administration a great deal. Donald Rumsfeld was an active duty fighter pilot (ROTC at Princeton). Dick Armitrage was a UDT leader in Vietnam (I believe - definitely saw combat). Colin Powell you all know about. John McCain is a war hero of the type that boggles the imagination - he was probably the most enthusiastic American politician about the war. Even George Bush was a fighter pilot in the National Guard - not what you choose to do if you want to avoid all danger. You denigrate Republicans constantly - but _90%_ of American military officers are Republicans. If the question of Iraq was to be decided by those with military backgrounds, you are lined up with a very, very, very tiny minority. Heck, if the question of voting for Bush in 2000 or 2004 was done by military background, again, you're in a pretty small minority. So, Dr. Brin, if you're so free attacking them for a lack of military service, I have to ask - what was your national service, Dr. Brin? Did you serve in the army? I can at least say that I _tried_ to join the Reserves, and I _did_ volunteer to serve in a combat zone. Maybe it will happen, maybe it won't. But I tried my best. That's not good enough, of course. I deeply regret not serving my country in the military in a time of war, as a man should. Working for the CPA might be a close substitute, but maybe not, too. But, if you're so free attacking people in the Bush Administration as idiots, corrupt, and unpatriotic, and justifying it with their lack of service - what's yours, Doctor? = Gautam Mukunda [EMAIL PROTECTED] Freedom is not free http://www.mukunda.blogspot.com __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free web site building tool. Try it! http://webhosting.yahoo.com/ps/sb/ ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Brin: LotR and Conservatives
--- Gautam, now you are getting plain silly. Making personal insults directed at me is hardly a response to my long list of GOP sillinesses. In fact, I had 4 years of ROTC training and would have gone to Vietnam if I did not perceive that war as the worst inanity, falling for a KGB trap of sucking America into a land war in Asia. (In fairness, I blame JFK for that one. Specifically his inaugural address daring all comers and proclaiming macho over brains.) Which is irrelevant. The things I accused W and his crowd of are specific (you answered none) provable and actually rather MILD compared to the absolutely insane series of spewing rants that were aimed at the Clintons, accusing them of everything from murder to molestation to having a bad marriage. (That last swipe, vicious, had no basis bust became the core mantra of a religious movement.) The dopiest thing is to sigh, wave your hands in the air and declare it pointless to argue. Feh. You are better than that. I know from other topics and other times. Oh... and IF ONLY McCain had been the nominee in 00. But fundamentally this isn't about conservatism. It is about kleptocracy. They hated him as much as all the other war heroes, like Kerry and Clark. Frat boys. = . . * Please note. My email address of many years is changing FROM [EMAIL PROTECTED] TO [EMAIL PROTECTED] ... (Or else use [EMAIL PROTECTED]) ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
