Interesting development in black hole theory
Stephen Hawking is upending the world of physics, again. http://www.nature.com/news/stephen-hawking-there-are-no-black-holes-1.14583 --[Lance] ___ http://box535.bluehost.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l_mccmedia.com
Re: Two interesting Articles for Dr. Brin:
http://www.asymptosis.com/are-machines-replacing-humans-or-am-i-a-luddite.html Another Interesting Article along similar lines: http://globalsociology.com/2010/07/01/accumulation-by-dispossession-and-savage-sorting/ Although when I read savage sorting I think selection. ___ http://box535.bluehost.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l_mccmedia.com
Re: Two interesting Articles for Dr. Brin:
On 3/20/2010 4:49 PM, KZK wrote: On 3/20/2010 12:00 AM, David Brin wrote: Wow, this guy is really something. I'll tout him on my blog. Who is he? [Steve Roth] Thanks for sharing it. I think their have also been other things going on for a number of years. Namely, most employers (90+%) now won't hire people who are not currently employed (they brag about this). So people who lose thier job are finding it very difficult to reenter the workforce. And people who've never been employed have extreme trouble just getting that first job (look at the unemployment underemployed %). http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/06/04/disturbing-job-ads-the-un_n_600665.html From: KZK http://www.asymptosis.com/are-machines-replacing-humans-or-am-i-a-luddite.html ___ http://box535.bluehost.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l_mccmedia.com
Haiti: government and regulation (was Re: Two interesting Articles for Dr. Brin:)
This thread got me thinking about government, regulation and Haiti. I haven't been back from Haiti long enough to feel as though I have particularly coherent thoughts about the significance and opportunity posed by the earthquake, but a few ideas have begun to take hold. Like many poor nations in our hemisphere, Haiti has lived under a combination of highly centralized government with little regulatory authority or trade barriers. The theory, or at least the defense, of the lack of regulation was that free market forces would allow the nation's people opportunities to bootstrap new businesses, etc. Yet the reality is that its wealthy trading partners have tended to reinforce the concentration of wealth in the hands of a small minority. Simple example - U.S.-government subsidized rice has undercut the local farmers' prices, yet in the name of free markets, no trade barriers or subsidies are in place... so Haiti imports more than half of its food, even though it was a very fertile country. There have been no environmental regulations, so the Haiti half of Hispaniola is almost entirely deforested, the trees having been cut down to make charcoal for people to cook on. Deforestation led to run-off that washed the topsoil into the ocean, greatly reducing that fertility. And the topsoil killed most of the coral reefs near the island, so fishing has also become far more difficult. The lack of regulation regarding building - there were no building codes - resulted in a huge percentage of the buildings collapsing or undergoing severe damage. Wanna see some of what I saw? http://www.facebook.com/?ref=home#!/arnett.nick?v=photos As I said, my thoughts on Haiti are not especially coherent yet, but it seems like Haiti's major partners - the U.S., Canada and France -- are in favor of democracy at home, but not in Haiti. It seems like we are in favor of trade barriers and subsidies at home, but not in Haiti. The earthquake was the worst natural disaster in the western hemishere - ever - and hit the poorest nation in the western hemisphere. And it left Haiti even more vulnerable than it was, with perhaps as many as 2 million people without permanent shelter and nowhere to go if a hurricane hits. There is opportunity for real change in this disaster. Haiti is forced to start over in many ways and perhaps this time, we, its friends and neighbors, can help create something better. Nick ___ http://box535.bluehost.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l_mccmedia.com
Re: Two interesting Articles for Dr. Brin:
Wow, this guy is really something. I'll tout him on my blog. Who is he? Thanks for sharing it. From: KZK evil.ke...@gmail.com To: brin-l@mccmedia.com Sent: Fri, March 19, 2010 6:51:11 PM Subject: Two interesting Articles for Dr. Brin: http://www.asymptosis.com/libertarians-republicans-and-democrats-new-findings-on-morality-empathy-and-sympathy.html http://www.asymptosis.com/are-machines-replacing-humans-or-am-i-a-luddite.html ___ http://box535.bluehost.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l_mccmedia.com___ http://box535.bluehost.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l_mccmedia.com
Re: Two interesting Articles for Dr. Brin:
On 3/20/2010 12:00 AM, David Brin wrote: Wow, this guy is really something. I'll tout him on my blog. Who is he? I don't know, I just found his site a few days ago. Your best bet would be to try and email him and ask. (Their are unscrupulous ways like looking up who the website was registered to by using whois). Then again, I'm partial to pseudonyms. Thanks for sharing it. I think their have also been other things going on for a number of years. Namely, most employers (90+%) now won't hire people who are not currently employed (they brag about this). So people who lose thier job are finding it very difficult to reenter the workforce. And people who've never been employed have extreme trouble just getting that first job (look at the unemployment underemployed %). Libertarians can be summed up in one statement: Libertarians are for anything that increases the: Wealth, Power, Rights, and Privileges, of the already Wealthy and Powerful Elites; Libertarians are also for anything that decreases the: Wealth, Power, Rights, and Privileges, of everyone else, especially the poorest or minorities. After all, the Libertarian party has in the past had a Pro-Apartheid plank in it's platform. You can usually get a Libertarian to argue that Slavery is OK, because people have a right to sell themselves. From: KZK http://www.asymptosis.com/libertarians-republicans-and-democrats-new-findings-on-morality-empathy-and-sympathy.html http://www.asymptosis.com/are-machines-replacing-humans-or-am-i-a-luddite.html ___ http://box535.bluehost.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l_mccmedia.com
Re: Two interesting Articles for Dr. Brin:
I challenge libertarians to imagine it is 1861. In which army do they fight? They are romantics and hence illogical. In fact, they think they are for the Horatio Alger rags to riches innovators. They hate it when you ask them how well that works when the rich become feudal lords. Patron Saint Adam Smith actually would have been a democrat From: KZK evil.ke...@gmail.com To: brin-l@mccmedia.com Sent: Sat, March 20, 2010 2:49:02 PM Subject: Re: Two interesting Articles for Dr. Brin: On 3/20/2010 12:00 AM, David Brin wrote: Wow, this guy is really something. I'll tout him on my blog. Who is he? I don't know, I just found his site a few days ago. Your best bet would be to try and email him and ask. (Their are unscrupulous ways like looking up who the website was registered to by using whois). Then again, I'm partial to pseudonyms. Thanks for sharing it. I think their have also been other things going on for a number of years. Namely, most employers (90+%) now won't hire people who are not currently employed (they brag about this). So people who lose thier job are finding it very difficult to reenter the workforce. And people who've never been employed have extreme trouble just getting that first job (look at the unemployment underemployed %). Libertarians can be summed up in one statement: Libertarians are for anything that increases the: Wealth, Power, Rights, and Privileges, of the already Wealthy and Powerful Elites; Libertarians are also for anything that decreases the: Wealth, Power, Rights, and Privileges, of everyone else, especially the poorest or minorities. After all, the Libertarian party has in the past had a Pro-Apartheid plank in it's platform. You can usually get a Libertarian to argue that Slavery is OK, because people have a right to sell themselves. From: KZK http://www.asymptosis.com/libertarians-republicans-and-democrats-new-findings-on-morality-empathy-and-sympathy.html http://www.asymptosis.com/are-machines-replacing-humans-or-am-i-a-luddite.html ___ http://box535.bluehost.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l_mccmedia.com___ http://box535.bluehost.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l_mccmedia.com
Re: Two interesting Articles for Dr. Brin:
At 05:02 PM Saturday 3/20/2010, David Brin wrote: I challenge libertarians to imagine it is 1861. In which army do they fight? Subquestion #1: Where do they live? Subquestion #2: What is the color of their skin? (Point being that although some people had a choice in that matter and some made one many did not. Although another point is that some who did did not necessarily make the obvious choice based on the subquestions . . . ) . . . ronn! :) ___ http://box535.bluehost.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l_mccmedia.com
Re: Two interesting Articles for Dr. Brin:
http://www.asymptosis.com/libertarians-republicans-and-democrats-new-findings-on-morality-empathy-and-sympathy.html Another point. Since conservatives seem to care a great deal for purity, this post makes a whole lot more sense: http://pandagon.net/index.php/site/comments/how_worried_should_we_be/ ___ http://box535.bluehost.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l_mccmedia.com
Two interesting Articles for Dr. Brin:
http://www.asymptosis.com/libertarians-republicans-and-democrats-new-findings-on-morality-empathy-and-sympathy.html http://www.asymptosis.com/are-machines-replacing-humans-or-am-i-a-luddite.html ___ http://box535.bluehost.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l_mccmedia.com
Interesting trend.
http://www.rcrwireless.com/article/20081110/WIRELESS/811109985/1081/newsletter30 Apple Inc.'s 3G iPhone was the top-selling handset in the United States in the third quarter, according to new data from NPD Group. The long reign of Motorola Inc.'s Razr handset — three straight years, or 12 consecutive quarters — is over. The Razr, in all its myriad models, slipped to the No. 2 position. Research In Motion Ltd.'s BlackBerry Curve garnered the No. 3 spot, followed by LG Electronic Co. Ltd.'s Rumor and Env2. http://www.engadget.com/2008/11/07/analyst-confirms-apple-slid-past-rim-to-become-number-two-smartp/ Research firm Canalys says that Apple stole the rug out from underneath RIM in the third quarter to become the world's number two pusher of smartphones, taking a hearty 17.3 percent market share compared to RIM's 15.2 percent and Windows Mobile's 13.6 percent. (Symbian is #1, but losing share.) http://www.computerworld.com/action/article.do?command=viewArticleBasictaxonomyName=ManagementarticleId=9117738taxonomyId=14pageNumber=2 purely in terms of revenue (rather than units sold, since the iPhone is more expensive than most cell phones in the market), Apple is the world's third-largest mobile-phone supplier, trailing only Nokia and Samsung. Apple seems to have learned from its mistakes in the Mac/Windows competition of the 90's. Platform Maru -- William T Goodall Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web : http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/ There's no chance that the iPhone is going to get any significant market share. No chance - Steve Ballmer ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: An interesting response
-Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Charlie Bell Sent: Saturday, May 03, 2008 9:48 AM To: Killer Bs (David Brin et al) Discussion Subject: Re: An interesting response On 04/05/2008, at 12:31 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The second article shows a _demostrated_ range of 13500 for the 777 , and the nonstop route would be somewhat shorter than a one stop route. When loaded with passengers and baggage, the airline will be able to fly 10,900 miles non-stop Yes, it did 13,500. Unloaded. It'll just be able to do London - Sydney loaded if the shortest possible aircraft route is available, and in the right conditions. Really want to rely on no headwinds to make it across Oz...? The longest scheduled commercial service offered currently is the over 18 hour non-stop from Newark to Singapore. Maybe someone will offer a London-Sydney non-stop in the future, and maybe it'll be a 777 that does it, but currently no plane can do it commercially, as I said. First a pedantic point, than a real one. You actually said No current commercial aircraft can do it. The sources I read indicated (I think I quoted one) said that Boeing was in negotiations for selling a number of 777s configured to make the London-Sydney run nonstop, on a regular basis. The return trip, due to prevailing head winds, would require a stop. The change to the plane would be a seating arrangement change, from 300 seats to 250. Clearly, this is not commercial now, or someone would be making money doing it. But, a commercial plane is capable of the trip, which is what I honestly thought we were discussing The more substantial point involves the maximum speed achieved by piloted planes over about the last 60 years. 1947312 1968925 19901000 20081000 There is physics behind this, not just a lack of will. _That's_ been my point all along. Dan M. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: An interesting response
At 05:34 PM Monday 5/5/2008, Dan M wrote: The more substantial point involves the maximum speed achieved by piloted planes over about the last 60 years. 1947312 1968925 19901000 20081000 There is obviously some additional modifier missing here, since even if the X-15 is disqualified since it used a rocket engine rather than an air-breathing engine, the SR-71 is still considered a jet aircraft (even if it uses exotic fuel) and is piloted (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eldon_W._Joersz). . . . ronn! :) ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: An interesting response
Original Message: - From: Ronn! Blankenship [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Mon, 05 May 2008 19:22:53 -0500 To: brin-l@mccmedia.com Subject: RE: An interesting response At 05:34 PM Monday 5/5/2008, Dan M wrote: The more substantial point involves the maximum speed achieved by piloted planes over about the last 60 years. 1947312 1968925 19901000 20081000 There is obviously some additional modifier missing here, since even if the X-15 is disqualified since it used a rocket engine rather than an air-breathing engine, the SR-71 is still considered a jet aircraft (even if it uses exotic fuel) and is piloted (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eldon_W._Joersz). Sorry, I was doing meters/second and didn't give units like I meant to. 1000 comes out to 2236 mph, a bit more than your source which claims 2188. Maybe the 2236 wasn't quite official for some reason. But, we basicaly agree here. And yes, I didn't consider rocket planes, and didn't consider the shuttle, etc. Dan M. mail2web.com - Microsoft® Exchange solutions from a leading provider - http://link.mail2web.com/Business/Exchange ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: An interesting response
Dan wrote: My argument is that we shouldn't think of green energy as merely a test of our will. It is also dependant on the lay of the land. Past behavior doesn't guarantee future behavior, but it's much more likely that, in 10 years, we will have a 1 terabyte drive for $100 than have a plane that can carry 1500 passengers that flies for the same price (not price per passenger but total price) as a plane that carries 100. 10 years? You can get one for $200 now: *http://tinyurl.com/62bmep The way prices for hard drives change, I doubt it will be much more than one. Doug * ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: An interesting response
Original Message: - From: Doug Pensinger [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Sun, 4 May 2008 11:10:57 -0800 To: brin-l@mccmedia.com Subject: Re: An interesting response Dan wrote: My argument is that we shouldn't think of green energy as merely a test of our will. It is also dependant on the lay of the land. Past behavior doesn't guarantee future behavior, but it's much more likely that, in 10 years, we will have a 1 terabyte drive for $100 than have a plane that can carry 1500 passengers that flies for the same price (not price per passenger but total price) as a plane that carries 100. 10 years? You can get one for $200 now: *http://tinyurl.com/62bmep The way prices for hard drives change, I doubt it will be much more than one. I stand corrected. :-) How about 10 Tbytes in 10 years for $100? I suppose that might seem expensive in 10 years, unless there is a lot of inflation between now and then and the minimum wage goes to $100/hour. When I first looked at the price of disk space, in 1978, the HEP department was paying $2.50 per week per Mbyte for its use of disk space. So, it's fair to say that I've understated my point. :-) Dan M. Dan M. mail2web - Check your email from the web at http://link.mail2web.com/mail2web ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: An interesting response
Original Message: - From: Charlie Bell [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Sat, 3 May 2008 15:17:39 +1000 To: brin-l@mccmedia.com Subject: Re: An interesting response On 03/05/2008, at 1:48 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: and their fuel loads per passenger. One would have to stop for fueling several times to make that distance. I realize that most planes have to stop once, including the 747, but the 777 can make it in one. London to Sydney? In one hop? No current commercial aircraft can do it. London to Sydney is almost 13.500 miles and the 777 has a range of a bit over 9000. I'll come back to the rest of the post later. It's true that some of the plans are for 787 flights, not 777 flights, but if the links given below are trustworthy both the 777 and the 787 have the capacity to do it as nonstop. http://www.get-packing.com/news/flights/archives/april-2007/virgin-plans-dir ect-london-to-sydney-flights.html?fid=1094933108 http://travel.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life_and_style/travel/business/article59 0535.ece http://www.get-packing.com/news/flights/archives/february-2007/qantas-consid ers-non-stop-london-sydney-flights.html?fid=1638842198 It's not commercial yet, but according to the first quote, planes are now on order for that flight. The second article shows a _demostrated_ range of 13500 for the 777 , and the nonstop route would be somewhat shorter than a one stop route. Dan M. mail2web LIVE Free email based on Microsoft® Exchange technology - http://link.mail2web.com/LIVE ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: An interesting response
On 04/05/2008, at 12:31 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The second article shows a _demostrated_ range of 13500 for the 777 , and the nonstop route would be somewhat shorter than a one stop route. When loaded with passengers and baggage, the airline will be able to fly 10,900 miles non-stop Yes, it did 13,500. Unloaded. It'll just be able to do London - Sydney loaded if the shortest possible aircraft route is available, and in the right conditions. Really want to rely on no headwinds to make it across Oz...? The longest scheduled commercial service offered currently is the over 18 hour non-stop from Newark to Singapore. Maybe someone will offer a London-Sydney non-stop in the future, and maybe it'll be a 777 that does it, but currently no plane can do it commercially, as I said. Charlie. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: An interesting response
Charlie Bell wrote on April 16th: Re: An interesting response On 17/04/2008, at 12:26 PM, Dan M wrote: Well, Concord was a political animal from the very beginning wasn't it? It was a tax subsidized showcase for Britain and France from the start. IIRC, it never really was a profit center. All aircraft mfrs are subsidised. Yes, it was supposed to be a technology It sounds as though this is a reflection of the common EU argument that the USs concentrating its purchases of military aircraft amounts to a subsidy of US commercial aircraft. But, the big US commercial aircraft maker (Boeing) hasnt had much luck in the military marker in the last 15 years. Boeing has received tax breaks, like every company, but the governments are not involved the way the EU is involved with AirBus. its successor would have been an efficient supersonic plane. I don't doubt that a successor would have been better, but you putting efficient in quotes seems to indicate that you aren't arguing against the fundamental increase in cost per passenger mile when a plane goes at Mach 1.05 compared to Mach 0.95. Fundamental? No. Substantial, yes. Well, we may be arguing semantic again. Ive seen fundamental costs being about a factor of 5 or so per passenger. I guess that would allow for That's not political. The decision to use tax money to subsidize the travel of the richest businessmen is, of course, political. The politics came in when a swathe of countries banned the Concorde from overflying. That's what killed it. Didn't take long before the only route for Concorde was the transatlantic shuttle, and even then, only the very rich could afford it. After looking into this, there is some truth in this. But, you do know it was environmental politics, right? Thats what killed the US SST program http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_2707 I know how loud sonic booms sounded when I was a kid. I can see how easy it was to get people opposed to them happening all the time. That's a scale issue. When only a handful are ever built, the RD isn't every going to be repaid. Thats OK, and I understand it. But, at the same time, I recall the tremendous pride of Britain and France on stealing a march on the US at the time. You seem to think the subsidies were aimed towards Concorde's final fate. They weren't, they were aimed at getting the time of long-haul flights down. Even today, it takes a day to get from London to Sydney. Concorde was supposed to halve that. But, supersonic flight is a fuel hog. Look at the range of the 747 vs. the Concord and their fuel loads per passenger. One would have to stop for fueling several times to make that distance. I realize that most planes have to stop once, including the 747, but the 777 can make it in one. The Concord would still be faster, and the point is moot due to environmental concerns that wont go away. But, I think without those, it is reasonable to assume that some businessmen would be willing to pay 5x the fare for a thin seat to save half of the time. But, granting that, my point is that natural barriers do exist. Some lines of inquiry and technology are easier than others. Right now, computer chips remain under Moores law and it appears that gene manipulation is doing even better. Let me try an analogy to illustrate my point. We scientists and RD engineers are like 16th century explorers. Part of where they went was determined by their will, our abilities, their technology, etc. But, part of it was determined by the lay of the land. The Northwest passage didnt exist until last year (the Northeast passage existed for a few years before that). There was no easy way around the Americas. Valley that were explored seemed promising as passages over the Continental divide, but few good ones exist. My argument is that we shouldnt think of green energy as merely a test of our will. It is also dependant on the lay of the land. Past behavior doesnt guarantee future behavior, but its much more likely that, in 10 years, we will have a 1 terabyte drive for $100 than have a plane that can carry 1500 passengers that flies for the same price (not price per passenger but total price) as a plane that carries 100. t's chicken wire on poles, Dan. Strung over land that can still be used for other stuff. The rectennas are by far the smallest costs in the whole thing... Im not sure its quite that simple. I agree it will probably be a lot cheaper than the transmitter. But, I don't think the process is trivial. If the transmission is that simple, why wouldnt we be using it for remote locations now. Just put a tower up and transmit the energy? I understand that, but there was a huge inertia ...? I understand that, but there was a huge inertia with mainframe computers in the 70s and they soon became dinosaurs. Yet, the capital invested in the Z-density I helped design was small, yet it was 20 years before it was worth the bother to design a new
Re: An interesting response
On 03/05/2008, at 1:48 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: You seem to think the subsidies were aimed towards Concorde's final fate. They weren't, they were aimed at getting the time of long-haul flights down. Even today, it takes a day to get from London to Sydney. Concorde was supposed to halve that. But, supersonic flight is a fuel hog. Look at the range of the 747 vs. the Concord Concorde. With an e. and their fuel loads per passenger. One would have to stop for fueling several times to make that distance. I realize that most planes have to stop once, including the 747, but the 777 can make it in one. London to Sydney? In one hop? No current commercial aircraft can do it. London to Sydney is almost 13.500 miles and the 777 has a range of a bit over 9000. I'll come back to the rest of the post later. Charlie. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: An interesting response
Reality check. Coal power is about 0.04 cents / kWh I'm in the solar biz. The reality is: Orbital stations are operational for 100% of the time. Earthbound stations are operational at most 50% of the time (because of the day/night cycle). But orbital stations cost a LOT more to get going. This eliminates any advantage you might get from the 50% power gain, and then some. I'm a proponent of earthbound CPV systems, and am actively seeking investment in my particular design. I know this industry inside and out, and can tell you straight out that orbital power gen systems will simply not fly, for cost-effectiveness reasons. Regards, Curtis. With very expensive receivers you can get about 40% efficiency. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Charlie Bell Sent: Friday, April 18, 2008 1:40 PM To: Killer Bs (David Brin et al) Discussion Subject: Re: An interesting response On 18/04/2008, at 7:16 AM, hkhenson wrote: At 12:00 PM 4/17/2008, Dan M wrote: Nothing works 100% of the time, but lets assume a 95% efficiency, or running 8322 hours/year. The cost is, then, about $39 per kWh. If you do it this way, the cost the next year is zero. That's not good accounting. These things should run for decades. If you wrote it off in 10 years, it would be $3.90 a kWh. Ah yes. I totally missed that part of Dan's calculation, despite the fact I used precisely the correct calculation in my own roof-top solar calculation - I blame my flu. Fucking schoolboy error. So - assuming a yearly running cost at 10% of start-up, that's still about 5 bucks a kwh. So comparable to rooftop solar, but with massively more startup cost. Hmmm. So why's it better? C. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: An interesting response
On 25/04/2008, at 4:19 AM, Curtis Burisch wrote: Reality check. I'm a proponent of earthbound CPV systems, and am actively seeking investment in my particular design. I know this industry inside and out, and can tell you straight out that orbital power gen systems will simply not fly, for cost-effectiveness reasons. Well, there we have it. Is there nothing that someone on here isn't an expert in? Charlie. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: An interesting response
On Fri, 25 Apr 2008, Charlie Bell wrote: On 25/04/2008, at 4:19 AM, Curtis Burisch wrote: Reality check. I'm a proponent of earthbound CPV systems, and am actively seeking investment in my particular design. I know this industry inside and out, and can tell you straight out that orbital power gen systems will simply not fly, for cost-effectiveness reasons. Well, there we have it. Is there nothing that someone on here isn't an expert in? And if anyone was thinking of saying child car seats, try again. :) Julia ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: An interesting response
Coal power is about 0.04 cents / kWh Whoops. That was supposed to be 4 cents / kWh. I also neglected to mention the following stats that may be of interest: Power in earth orbit: 1300 W/m^2 Power at earth surface: 1000 W/m^2 Regards, Curtis. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: An interesting response
On 18/04/2008, at 7:16 AM, hkhenson wrote: At 12:00 PM 4/17/2008, Dan M wrote: Nothing works 100% of the time, but lets assume a 95% efficiency, or running 8322 hours/year. The cost is, then, about $39 per kWh. If you do it this way, the cost the next year is zero. That's not good accounting. These things should run for decades. If you wrote it off in 10 years, it would be $3.90 a kWh. Ah yes. I totally missed that part of Dan's calculation, despite the fact I used precisely the correct calculation in my own roof-top solar calculation - I blame my flu. Fucking schoolboy error. So - assuming a yearly running cost at 10% of start-up, that's still about 5 bucks a kwh. So comparable to rooftop solar, but with massively more startup cost. Hmmm. So why's it better? C. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: An interesting response
-Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of hkhenson Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2008 8:10 PM To: brin-l@mccmedia.com Subject: An interesting response At 12:00 PM 4/16/2008, Dan M wrote: (Keith wrote) At 12:00 PM 4/11/2008, Dan M wrote: (Keith wrote) Takes 10 200 ton payload rockets each flying once a day to do it and with a blank check perhaps under 5 years to work up to this production rate and 6-7 years from start to get to a $50 billion a year revenue stream increasing at $25 billion a year. OK, let's do the math on that. At the present time, the cost of lift to geosynchronous orbit is $20,000 per kg or $20M per metric ton. Ten 200 ton payloads would be about 40 billion per day or 14.6 trillion per year. That's roughly the GDP of the US. And the analogy would be how impossible it is to build a dam sending all the contents in Fed Ex envelopes. The trick is, as it always has been, to lower launch costs. Unfortunately, even in inflation adjusted dollars, launch costs haven't dropped much over the past 40 years. I agree with you. The question is why? I wrote a blog on that general topic at the Scientific American website http://science-community.sciam.com/blog-entry/Dan-Ms-Blog/Unfortunate- Promin ent-Misconception-Concerning-Tech/34870 It was an interesting blog, though *social problems* are in a very different class than engineering ones like going to the moon. At least they are now. Ask and I will point you to a dark story about how they might be solved. The essence is that when the engineering community starts working on something, it starts working on the obviously solvable problems first. Then, progress slows as the easy problems are solved and harder problems are faced. The point at which this happens, and the manner in which it happens is based on what is found. The speed of sound barrier is rather significant, and we have not found a way to develop efficient planes that go at Mach 1.1 almost 60 years after we first went above Mach 1. It's not the cost of energy. No, it's the cost of the system. A nearly hundred percent efficient space elevator lifts about 2400 mt a day (on less than a GW) snip I've invented a few things that are used worldwide and am still engaged in practical science/engineering. I've worked close to guys who's inventions have reduce world costs for producing oil by about 250 million/day. Since there are around 80 million barrels a day produced, that's a reduction of about 3%. So, I think I'm fairly familiar with processes that are economical and that work. I have not seen anything in what you have written on this subject that gives an indication of an understanding of the nature of practical solutions to problems. What do you want? The current 747 cost about $300 million and dry masses out to about 185 mt or $1.6 million a ton. Produced in similar tonnage, do you see any reason these rockets would cost more than per ton than a 747? If so, why? For the rocket itself, not counting all the other expenses associated with launches, that's not an unreasonable cost. First and second stage mass 619 tons, (third stage is mostly power sat parts) so if they cost on a par with a 747, they would cost just a hair over a billion each, with one coming off the production line every 20 days, or about 31 mt a day. That might sound like a lot, but I have worked in a locomotive factory that made 30 times that much a day in product (8-9 locomotives a day at 113 mt each). At peak production 747s were coming off the line at a slightly higher tonnage per year. If you use them for 200 flights the capital cost per flight is $5 million /200,000kg or $25/kg. Here's where you throw in the unspecified assumption. A simple disposable rocket, like the ones being used by all launch facilities but the shuttle, could cost about what you said. But, then you talk about reusable rockets and assume that the initial capital cost is the critical factor. The fantasy of the space shuttle was that it could be reused easily. 10 years into the mission, it was supposed to require a very small ground crew, getting lift costs to near earth orbit down to about $25/kg or some such number. But, the maintenance is very high and expensive. The shuttle costs a lot of money to fly, even though we are not buying new shuttles, the big fuel tank is the cheapest part of the assembly, and the solid fuel rockets are recoverable. So, I've seen no estimates for this, just the same arm waving I heard about the shuttle years ago. I can think of Russia, Japan, the EU, the US, and China all having significant lift capacity, and Russia is the cheapest available one I know of. I tend to look at actual costs and their trends as a guideline, not estimates that make unproven assumptions. I realize
Re: An interesting response
At 12:00 PM 4/17/2008, Dan M wrote: Nothing works 100% of the time, but lets assume a 95% efficiency, or running 8322 hours/year. The cost is, then, about $39 per kWh. If you do it this way, the cost the next year is zero. That's not good accounting. These things should run for decades. If you wrote it off in 10 years, it would be $3.90 a kWh. And what kind of a deal would the Russians give you if you wanted to launch 110 of these a day? Keith ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: An interesting response
hkhenson said the following on 4/17/2008 5:16 PM: At 12:00 PM 4/17/2008, Dan M wrote: And what kind of a deal would the Russians give you if you wanted to launch 110 of these a day? Perhaps this is naive of me, but who is going to want to build the multiple launching facilities 110 launches/day will require? I would expect most of those pads would go idle once the project completed, no? Seems like a sunk cost to me. --[Lance] -- GPG Fingerprint: 409B A409 A38D 92BF 15D9 6EEE 9A82 F2AC 69AC 07B9 CACert.org Assurer ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: An interesting response
-Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of hkhenson Sent: Friday, April 11, 2008 3:43 PM To: brin-l@mccmedia.com Subject: RE: An interesting response At 12:00 PM 4/11/2008, Dan M wrote: (Keith wrote) Takes 10 200 ton payload rockets each flying once a day to do it and with a blank check perhaps under 5 years to work up to this production rate and 6-7 years from start to get to a $50 billion a year revenue stream increasing at $25 billion a year. OK, let's do the math on that. At the present time, the cost of lift to geosynchronous orbit is $20,000 per kg or $20M per metric ton. Ten 200 ton payloads would be about 40 billion per day or 14.6 trillion per year. That's roughly the GDP of the US. And the analogy would be how impossible it is to build a dam sending all the contents in Fed Ex envelopes. The trick is, as it always has been, to lower launch costs. Unfortunately, even in inflation adjusted dollars, launch costs haven't dropped much over the past 40 years. I agree with you. The question is why? I wrote a blog on that general topic at the Scientific American website http://science-community.sciam.com/blog-entry/Dan-Ms-Blog/Unfortunate-Promin ent-Misconception-Concerning-Tech/34870 The essence is that when the engineering community starts working on something, it starts working on the obviously solvable problems first. Then, progress slows as the easy problems are solved and harder problems are faced. The point at which this happens, and the manner in which it happens is based on what is found. The speed of sound barrier is rather significant, and we have not found a way to develop efficient planes that go at Mach 1.1 almost 60 years after we first went above Mach 1. It's not the cost of energy. No, it's the cost of the system. A nearly hundred percent efficient space elevator lifts about 2400 mt a day Of course you have the cost of the elevator and cleaning up the space junk as capital costs. It can't be done at all now because we don't have the cable, but just for analysis put a $1000 billion price tag on it. Sure, if the cost were that low, it would work. But setting a figure like that reminds me of the story of the engineer, the chemist, and the accountant who were all stuck on a desert island with cans of food and no can opener.I'm sure you've all heard the jokebut the punchline is the accountant, after hearing suggestions from the engineer and the chemist that don't work gives his solution that starts with first assume we have a can opener. I've invented a few things that are used worldwide and am still engaged in practical science/engineering. I've worked close to guys who's inventions have reduce world costs for producing oil by about 250 million/day. So, I think I'm fairly familiar with processes that are economical and that work. I have not seen anything in what you have written on this subject that gives an indication of an understanding of the nature of practical solutions to problems. Done with rockets of this sort http://www.ilr.tu-berlin.de/koelle/Neptun/NEP2015.pdf the energy input is about 15 times that high, or from $15 /kg down to $1.50 as you get less and less expensive energy. I went to this website, and it looked like a speculative conference. Vaporware is easy to build. Doing something that works is hard. Most things we wish we could do we do not know how to do. I think that this is the absolutely fundamental difference you have with folks who argue for nuclear reactors vs. space based solar power. We've demonstrated safety mechanisms, Can you be specific about what you mean here? Sure, to be effective, power would have to be transmitted down in a fairly dense fashion. One needs mechanisms that provide feedback to turn the power off should the aim stray. Plus, it costs money to build the actual arrays. That's true, but with just mild concentration you can get at least 10 times more power out of a solar cell in space. We have an overwhelmingly fundamental difference here. I have looked at the solar arrays for the space station and they are expensive. If concentration were trivial in space, don't you think they would have used it? We know on earth that techniques that use concentration have practical problems that have prevented them from being cost effective. If you can find a way to drop launch costs a factor of 100 to 500, then space based solar becomes a player. There is nothing like that on the horizon. There doesn't seem to be any reason a really huge throughput transport system should not be able to give you that much reduction. Then, why hasn't it happened with the scores of airline industries? 747s were brought online in the '60salmost 40 years ago. 747s remain competitive. The airline industry is huge, and we've only seen incremental improvements over the past 40 years
Re: An interesting response
On 17/04/2008, at 3:14 AM, Dan M wrote: The speed of sound barrier is rather significant, and we have not found a way to develop efficient planes that go at Mach 1.1 almost 60 years after we first went above Mach 1. So-called supercruise. The biggest problem with going over Mach 1 is political and legal, not technological - had Concorde not been killed by politics, its successor would have been an efficient supersonic plane. It's not the cost of energy. No, it's the cost of the system. Yep. Can you be specific about what you mean here? Sure, to be effective, power would have to be transmitted down in a fairly dense fashion. One needs mechanisms that provide feedback to turn the power off should the aim stray. Current designs seem to show a wide collection with a diffuse beam, so that it's relatively safe to be under the beam. There doesn't seem to be any reason a really huge throughput transport system should not be able to give you that much reduction. Then, why hasn't it happened with the scores of airline industries? 747s were brought online in the '60salmost 40 years ago. 747s remain competitive. The airline industry is huge, and we've only seen incremental improvements over the past 40 years. And 747s, beyond the basic airframe and control systems, are very different to what they were in the 70s. (by the way, they were brought online in 1970 - maiden flight was '69, but it wasn't delivered 'til the following year). There isn't a need for that many huge airliners, only around 1400 747s have been built, and it's taken 'til last year for the 747s size and efficiency to be surpassed by the A380 (which is an incredible plane) - improvements in the mid-size airliners have been marked, however, mainly because there's a lot more competition. Point on this part is that there is huge inertia when there's huge capital expenditure - if you've spent a few tens of millions on a plane in 1970 or 1980 you're going to keep using it as long as you can, 'cause a similar plane costs a few hundred million in 2008. All that said, I'd like to see you, Dan, try to put together a cost- analysis on a powersat project. You're very good at using your tenacious posting to naysay, so I'd like to see you attempt to solve the problem so I can see where the problems are. C. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
An interesting response
At 12:00 PM 4/16/2008, Dan M wrote: (Keith wrote) At 12:00 PM 4/11/2008, Dan M wrote: (Keith wrote) Takes 10 200 ton payload rockets each flying once a day to do it and with a blank check perhaps under 5 years to work up to this production rate and 6-7 years from start to get to a $50 billion a year revenue stream increasing at $25 billion a year. OK, let's do the math on that. At the present time, the cost of lift to geosynchronous orbit is $20,000 per kg or $20M per metric ton. Ten 200 ton payloads would be about 40 billion per day or 14.6 trillion per year. That's roughly the GDP of the US. And the analogy would be how impossible it is to build a dam sending all the contents in Fed Ex envelopes. The trick is, as it always has been, to lower launch costs. Unfortunately, even in inflation adjusted dollars, launch costs haven't dropped much over the past 40 years. I agree with you. The question is why? I wrote a blog on that general topic at the Scientific American website http://science-community.sciam.com/blog-entry/Dan-Ms-Blog/Unfortunate-Promin ent-Misconception-Concerning-Tech/34870 It was an interesting blog, though *social problems* are in a very different class than engineering ones like going to the moon. At least they are now. Ask and I will point you to a dark story about how they might be solved. The essence is that when the engineering community starts working on something, it starts working on the obviously solvable problems first. Then, progress slows as the easy problems are solved and harder problems are faced. The point at which this happens, and the manner in which it happens is based on what is found. The speed of sound barrier is rather significant, and we have not found a way to develop efficient planes that go at Mach 1.1 almost 60 years after we first went above Mach 1. It's not the cost of energy. No, it's the cost of the system. A nearly hundred percent efficient space elevator lifts about 2400 mt a day (on less than a GW) snip I've invented a few things that are used worldwide and am still engaged in practical science/engineering. I've worked close to guys who's inventions have reduce world costs for producing oil by about 250 million/day. Since there are around 80 million barrels a day produced, that's a reduction of about 3%. So, I think I'm fairly familiar with processes that are economical and that work. I have not seen anything in what you have written on this subject that gives an indication of an understanding of the nature of practical solutions to problems. What do you want? The current 747 cost about $300 million and dry masses out to about 185 mt or $1.6 million a ton. Produced in similar tonnage, do you see any reason these rockets would cost more than per ton than a 747? If so, why? First and second stage mass 619 tons, (third stage is mostly power sat parts) so if they cost on a par with a 747, they would cost just a hair over a billion each, with one coming off the production line every 20 days, or about 31 mt a day. That might sound like a lot, but I have worked in a locomotive factory that made 30 times that much a day in product (8-9 locomotives a day at 113 mt each). At peak production 747s were coming off the line at a slightly higher tonnage per year. If you use them for 200 flights the capital cost per flight is $5 million /200,000kg or $25/kg. This number is excessively rough, but could be refined without a lot of trouble. At a nickel a kWh, a kg of power sat generates $200 of electricity a year. Done with rockets of this sort http://www.ilr.tu-berlin.de/koelle/Neptun/NEP2015.pdf the energy input is about 15 times that high, or from $15 /kg down to $1.50 as you get less and less expensive energy. I went to this website, and it looked like a speculative conference. Vaporware is easy to build. Doing something that works is hard. Most things we wish we could do we do not know how to do. The .pdf was recommended as a good reference by Hu Davis of Eagle Engineering. Look him up. I think that this is the absolutely fundamental difference you have with folks who argue for nuclear reactors vs. space based solar power. We've demonstrated safety mechanisms, Can you be specific about what you mean here? Sure, to be effective, power would have to be transmitted down in a fairly dense fashion. One needs mechanisms that provide feedback to turn the power off should the aim stray. The power level for power sats was set at about 1/4kW/square meter back in the 70s so it could not be used as a weapon. There was also concern that the ionosphere could go non-linear and short out the beam. As far as sending the beam down densely, it's an optical problem--see the math behind Airy's disk. If you want to get a tighter beam you have to go to a larger transmitter or higher frequency or both. The beam requires a pilot beam up from
RE: An interesting response
-Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Charlie Bell Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2008 6:49 PM To: Killer Bs (David Brin et al) Discussion Subject: Re: An interesting response On 17/04/2008, at 3:14 AM, Dan M wrote: The speed of sound barrier is rather significant, and we have not found a way to develop efficient planes that go at Mach 1.1 almost 60 years after we first went above Mach 1. So-called supercruise. The biggest problem with going over Mach 1 is political and legal, not technological - had Concorde not been killed by politics. Well, Concord was a political animal from the very beginning wasn't it? It was a tax subsidized showcase for Britain and France from the start. IIRC, it never really was a profit center. its successor would have been an efficient supersonic plane. I don't doubt that a successor would have been better, but you putting efficient in quotes seems to indicate that you aren't arguing against the fundamental increase in cost per passenger mile when a plane goes at Mach 1.05 compared to Mach 0.95. That's not political. The decision to use tax money to subsidize the travel of the richest businessmen is, of course, political. Can you be specific about what you mean here? Sure, to be effective, power would have to be transmitted down in a fairly dense fashion. One needs mechanisms that provide feedback to turn the power off should the aim stray. Current designs seem to show a wide collection with a diffuse beam, so that it's relatively safe to be under the beam. OK, then there would be the cost of a wider array, earlier designs had cheaper local receivers with feedback required to keep the beam on. I'm not saying that this would be a showstopper, it's just that it's part of the price that has to be figured in. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_747 And 747s, beyond the basic airframe and control systems, are very different to what they were in the 70s. (by the way, they were brought online in 1970.. OK, the first commercial flight was Jan, 22, 1970...my apologies for rounding. But, the 747 is still in competition, sometimes on the same routes as smaller planes...and there are still a number on order (see site given above). Point on this part is that there is huge inertia when there's huge capital expenditure - if you've spent a few tens of millions on a plane in 1970 or 1980 you're going to keep using it as long as you can, 'cause a similar plane costs a few hundred million in 2008. I understand that, but there was a huge inertia All that said, I'd like to see you, Dan, try to put together a cost- analysis on a powersat project. Sure, be glad to. The cheapest commercially available launch to geosynchronous orbit (GEO) that I know of is the Russian Zenit program. For about 90 million, one can get a payload of just over 1800 kg into GEO. That's just under 50,000 per kg. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zenit_rocket OK, so lets calculate output per kg. of weight. From a site that is promoting their solar cells for use in orbit http://www.mdatechnology.net/techprofile.aspx?id=226 we get an output of 150W/kg. That gives us a launch cost of about $325 per watt (I'm rounding down now instead of up). Nothing works 100% of the time, but lets assume a 95% efficiency, or running 8322 hours/year. The cost is, then, about $39 per kWh. Dan M. tenacious posting to naysay, so I'd like to see you attempt to solve the problem so I can see where the problems are. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: An interesting response
On 17/04/2008, at 12:26 PM, Dan M wrote: So-called supercruise. The biggest problem with going over Mach 1 is political and legal, not technological - had Concorde not been killed by politics. Well, Concord was a political animal from the very beginning wasn't it? It was a tax subsidized showcase for Britain and France from the start. IIRC, it never really was a profit center. All aircraft mfrs are subsidised. Yes, it was supposed to be a technology its successor would have been an efficient supersonic plane. I don't doubt that a successor would have been better, but you putting efficient in quotes seems to indicate that you aren't arguing against the fundamental increase in cost per passenger mile when a plane goes at Mach 1.05 compared to Mach 0.95. Fundamental? No. Substantial, yes. That's not political. The decision to use tax money to subsidize the travel of the richest businessmen is, of course, political. The politics came in when a swathe of countries banned the Concorde from overflying. That's what killed it. Didn't take long before the only route for Concorde was the transatlantic shuttle, and even then, only the very rich could afford it. That's a scale issue. When only a handful are ever built, the RD isn't every going to be repaid. You seem to think the subsidies were aimed towards Concorde's final fate. They weren't, they were aimed at getting the time of long-haul flights down. Even today, it takes a day to get from London to Sydney. Concorde was supposed to halve that. Can you be specific about what you mean here? Sure, to be effective, power would have to be transmitted down in a fairly dense fashion. One needs mechanisms that provide feedback to turn the power off should the aim stray. Current designs seem to show a wide collection with a diffuse beam, so that it's relatively safe to be under the beam. OK, then there would be the cost of a wider array, It's chicken wire on poles, Dan. Strung over land that can still be used for other stuff. The rectennas are by far the smallest costs in the whole thing... Point on this part is that there is huge inertia when there's huge capital expenditure - if you've spent a few tens of millions on a plane in 1970 or 1980 you're going to keep using it as long as you can, 'cause a similar plane costs a few hundred million in 2008. I understand that, but there was a huge inertia ...? All that said, I'd like to see you, Dan, try to put together a cost- analysis on a powersat project. Nothing works 100% of the time, but lets assume a 95% efficiency, or running 8322 hours/year. The cost is, then, about $39 per kWh. Right. So, how do you improve that. OK, say we can get the launch cost halved by mass producing rockets and stuff. That's still $20/kwh. Coal's a few cents a kwh. Even with carbon sequestration doubling or tripling that, it's still a big gap. Roof-mounted solar, I can get a 1kW system (grid connected) for AUD5200, with 20 year warranty. So say it's doing that 1kw 6 hours a day (paper napkin calculation here), that's 43,800 kw across the life of the system, that's about AUD8/kwh ($7.50/kwh). So still a lot better than a powersat, and that's not factoring in the launch pollution. So... how to bridge the gap? Charlie. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: An interesting response
At 12:00 PM 4/11/2008, Dan M wrote: (Keith wrote) Takes 10 200 ton payload rockets each flying once a day to do it and with a blank check perhaps under 5 years to work up to this production rate and 6-7 years from start to get to a $50 billion a year revenue stream increasing at $25 billion a year. OK, let's do the math on that. At the present time, the cost of lift to geosynchronous orbit is $20,000 per kg or $20M per metric ton. Ten 200 ton payloads would be about 40 billion per day or 14.6 trillion per year. That's roughly the GDP of the US. And the analogy would be how impossible it is to build a dam sending all the contents in Fed Ex envelopes. The trick is, as it always has been, to lower launch costs. Unfortunately, even in inflation adjusted dollars, launch costs haven't dropped much over the past 40 years. I agree with you. The question is why? It's not the cost of energy. A nearly hundred percent efficient space elevator lifts about 2400 mt a day to GEO on an input of about a GW. That's 2.4 million kg/24 million kWh. At ten cents a kWh that's a dollar a kg. At the target sales price of a penny a kWh it's ten cents a kg. Of course you have the cost of the elevator and cleaning up the space junk as capital costs. It can't be done at all now because we don't have the cable, but just for analysis put a $1000 billion price tag on it. Since it is going to be used at least ten years, write it off at $100 billion a year. 2.4 million kg x 365 is close enough to a billion kg. So the capital cost would be around $100 a kg. Done with rockets of this sort http://www.ilr.tu-berlin.de/koelle/Neptun/NEP2015.pdf the energy input is about 15 times that high, or from $15 /kg down to $1.50 as you get less and less expensive energy. The rockets are only assumed to make 200 trips before being junked. At 200 tons payload, they deliver 40,000 mt or 40 million kg. The mass of one of them is about 3 times a 747. If they cost a billion dollars each (produced at 20 a year), $1000 million/ 40 million is $25 a kg. I.e., there is no reason for large volume space travel to cost more than $100 a kg even with rockets. What we need is a transcontinental railroad. What we have in NASA is the Pony Express. Incidentally, the energy returned from a kg of power sat is 4000 kWh. At a penny a kwh that's $40 a year, at ten cents, $400. The income stream (which you estimate at 25 billion/year) Actually it was rising at $25 billion a year from selling power. If you sold the satellites for ten years power production the income stream would be $250 billion a year. would also have to support ground receivers, Rectennas are (from a cost standpoint) installed chicken wire over farmland and inverters (the diodes are almost free). Collecting 1/4 kW from 400 square meters would give you a hundred kW. At pc power supply prices, the inverters are $60 a kW. Counting the chicken wire, poles, diodes and power collecting grid, a 5 GW rectenna would cost $500 million or less and deliver $400 million to $2 billion a year at the bus bars. It would take decades to saturate the market, which for oil alone is about $3 trillion a year. safety mechanisms, Can you be specific about what you mean here? transmission lines, etc. At least for a while you could site the rectennas near existing transmission lines. Plus, it costs money to build the actual arrays. That's true, but with just mild concentration you can get at least 10 times more power out of a solar cell in space. If you can find a way to drop launch costs a factor of 100 to 500, then space based solar becomes a player. There is nothing like that on the horizon. There doesn't seem to be any reason a really huge throughput transport system should not be able to give you that much reduction. However, I don't thing NASA is the right organization to do it. Keith Keith ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: An interesting response
At 12:21 AM Thursday 4/10/2008, hkhenson wrote: I have recently been discussing the scope of a space based power satellite project with a bunch of high powered space engineers. They are all accomplished, one of them was the project engineer for the first moon lander. This started when I scaled a moving cable space elevator large enough (2000 tons a day) to put a real dent in the carbon/energy problems (300 GW/year production rate, displacing all the coal fired plants in the US in one year). So when one of them posted a study of a rocket with about twice the payload of a Saturn V, I extrapolated how many of them and what rate of launches it would take to ferry 2000 tons per day to GEO using rockets instead of a much more questionable space elevator. To my surprise, the energy payback went from under a day for the elevator to 15 days for rockets. You would have to dedicate the first 3 power satellites (15 GW) to making rocket propellants. Hardly a deal breaker. Takes 10 200 ton payload rockets each flying once a day to do it and with a blank check perhaps under 5 years to work up to this production rate and 6-7 years from start to get to a $50 billion a year revenue stream increasing at $25 billion a year. I didn't expect a response other than something like that's interesting but they reacted almost with horror, saying the best they could hope for is an almost useless 1 GW demonstration power sat in the next 10 or 15 years and that the only choice we have is to build lots of nuclear power plants. Now countries and companies in the world for the most part realize that there is a serious problem with energy, and that it isn't going to get better as we slide down the far side of oil production. It seems to me that a project that really could displace all fossil sources of energy with renewable solar energy and (using penny a kWh electricity) reduce the price of synthetic gasoline to a dollar a gallon would get a lot more support than a tiny demonstration project no matter how few in billions it cost. There is no doubt it's a big project, on a par with what we have spent on the Iraq war. But the market for energy is massive, oil alone is $3,000 billion a year. And there is no lack of money to fund it, Exxon can't figure out what to do with their profits so they are buying back $30 billion of their stock a year. The Chinese have a few thousand billions in US notes they would spend on a secure energy source large enough to meet their growing needs. So my question to you, is which be an easier project to sell, a demonstration project for a small number of billions over 10 or 15 years, or a really huge project in the high hundreds of billions to massively displace coal and oil with solar energy from space in under ten years? Keith Henson Or perhaps the real question is which of the following is the case? (1) Your figures and their figures disagree that much, in which case it might be worthwhile to have someone else independently check both sets of figures (probably a good idea in \\any\\ case), or (2) There is more on the agenda than simply finding longer-lasting, less-polluting sources of energy to replace oil. ? Maru . . . ronn! :) ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: An interesting response
Takes 10 200 ton payload rockets each flying once a day to do it and with a blank check perhaps under 5 years to work up to this production rate and 6-7 years from start to get to a $50 billion a year revenue stream increasing at $25 billion a year. OK, let's do the math on that. At the present time, the cost of lift to geosynchronous orbit is $20,000 per kg or $20M per metric ton. Ten 200 ton payloads would be about 40 billion per day or 14.6 trillion per year. That's roughly the GDP of the US. The trick is, as it always has been, to lower launch costs. Unfortunately, even in inflation adjusted dollars, launch costs haven't dropped much over the past 40 years. The income stream (which you estimate at 25 billion/year) would also have to support ground receivers, safety mechanisms, transmission lines, etc. Plus, it costs money to build the actual arrays. If you can find a way to drop launch costs a factor of 100 to 500, then space based solar becomes a player. There is nothing like that on the horizon. Dan M. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: An interesting response
Dan M wrote: The trick is, as it always has been, to lower launch costs. Unfortunately, even in inflation adjusted dollars, launch costs haven't dropped much over the past 40 years. Maybe even if launch costs were _zero_, orbital power satellites could still have a negative energy net production. Last time I heard (when I was working in the Space Industry, and not in the Oil Industry), solar arrays required more energy to be built than the energy they produced during their lifetimes. Alberto 'oil rulez, fsck space!' Monteiro ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
An interesting response
I have recently been discussing the scope of a space based power satellite project with a bunch of high powered space engineers. They are all accomplished, one of them was the project engineer for the first moon lander. This started when I scaled a moving cable space elevator large enough (2000 tons a day) to put a real dent in the carbon/energy problems (300 GW/year production rate, displacing all the coal fired plants in the US in one year). So when one of them posted a study of a rocket with about twice the payload of a Saturn V, I extrapolated how many of them and what rate of launches it would take to ferry 2000 tons per day to GEO using rockets instead of a much more questionable space elevator. To my surprise, the energy payback went from under a day for the elevator to 15 days for rockets. You would have to dedicate the first 3 power satellites (15 GW) to making rocket propellants. Hardly a deal breaker. Takes 10 200 ton payload rockets each flying once a day to do it and with a blank check perhaps under 5 years to work up to this production rate and 6-7 years from start to get to a $50 billion a year revenue stream increasing at $25 billion a year. I didn't expect a response other than something like that's interesting but they reacted almost with horror, saying the best they could hope for is an almost useless 1 GW demonstration power sat in the next 10 or 15 years and that the only choice we have is to build lots of nuclear power plants. Now countries and companies in the world for the most part realize that there is a serious problem with energy, and that it isn't going to get better as we slide down the far side of oil production. It seems to me that a project that really could displace all fossil sources of energy with renewable solar energy and (using penny a kWh electricity) reduce the price of synthetic gasoline to a dollar a gallon would get a lot more support than a tiny demonstration project no matter how few in billions it cost. There is no doubt it's a big project, on a par with what we have spent on the Iraq war. But the market for energy is massive, oil alone is $3,000 billion a year. And there is no lack of money to fund it, Exxon can't figure out what to do with their profits so they are buying back $30 billion of their stock a year. The Chinese have a few thousand billions in US notes they would spend on a secure energy source large enough to meet their growing needs. So my question to you, is which be an easier project to sell, a demonstration project for a small number of billions over 10 or 15 years, or a really huge project in the high hundreds of billions to massively displace coal and oil with solar energy from space in under ten years? Keith Henson ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Interesting Day
Ick. Sorry about the formatting on that last message. I wrote it on my Palm and didn't realize it was going to stick the entire original message down on the bottom. - jmh ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Interesting Day
At 02:57 PM Monday 3/24/2008, John Horn wrote: Ick. Sorry about the formatting on that last message. I wrote it on my Palm ObOldJoke: Hope you used washable Ink. Lava Soap Maru . . . ronn! :) ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Interesting Day
On Mon, 24 Mar 2008, Ronn! Blankenship wrote: At 02:57 PM Monday 3/24/2008, John Horn wrote: Ick. Sorry about the formatting on that last message. I wrote it on my Palm ObOldJoke: Hope you used washable Ink. Lava Soap Maru Lava soap -- it's not just for cleaning up after car maintenence! :) Julia ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Interesting Day
Thursday night I got to see Bruce Springsteen in concert. There is a seriously religious experience! (And it was a fantastic show, by the way...) - jmh On 3/21/08, Pat Mathews [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: And Thursday was one of the 8 pagan holidays, the Spring Equinoxhttp://idiotgrrl.livejournal.com/ Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2008 20:39:00 -0500 To: brin-l@mccmedia.com From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Fwd: Interesting Day Good Friday! Happy Purim, Eid, etc... Wednesday, Mar. 19, 2008 By DAVID VAN BIEMA WITH SIMON ROBINSON/NEW DELHI On Friday more than a billion Christians around the world will mark the gravest observance on their Calendar, Good Friday, the day Jesus died on the cross. (To be followed in two days by Easter Sunday, to mark his Resurrection). But unlike some holy days, say, Christmas, which some non-Christians in the U.S. observe informally by going to a movie and ordering Chinese food, on this particular Friday, March 21, it seems almost no believer of any sort will be left without his or her own holiday. In what is statistically, at least, a once-in-a-millennium combination, the following will all occur on the 21st: Good Friday Purim, a Jewish festival celebrating the biblical book of Esther Narouz, the Persia n New Year, which is observed with Islamic elaboration in Iran and all the stan countries, as well as by Zoroastrians and Baha'is. Eid Milad an Nabi, the Birth of the Prophet, which is celebrated by some but not all Sunni Muslims and, though officially beginning on Thursday, is often marked on Friday. Small Holi, Hindu, an Indian festival of bonfires, to be followed on Saturday by Holi, a kind of Mardi Gras. Magha Puja, a celebration of the Buddha's first group of followers, marked primarily in Thailand. Half the world's population is going to be celebrating something, says Raymond Clothey, Professor Emeritus of Religious studies at the University of Pittsburgh. My goodness, says Delton Krueger, owner of www.interfaithcalendar.org, who follows 14 major religions and six others. He counts 20 holidays altogether (including some religious double-dips, like Maundy Thursday and Good Friday) between the 20th (which is also quite crowded) and t he 21st. He marvels: There is no other time in 2008 when there is this kind of concentration. And in fact for quite a bit longer than that. Ed Reingold and Nachum Dershowitz, co-authors of the books Calendrical Calculations and Calendrical Tabulations, determined how often in the period between 1600 and 2400 A.D. Good Friday, Purim, Narouz and the Eid would occur in the same week. The answer is nine times in 800 years. Then they tackled the odds that they would converge on a two-day period. And the total is ... only once: tomorrow. And that's not even counting Magha Puja and Small Holi. Unless you are mathematically inclined, however, you may not see the logic in all this. If it's the 21st of March, you may ask, shouldn't all the religions of the world celebrate the same holiday on that date each year? No. There are a sprinkling of major holidays (Western Christmas is one) that fall each year on the same day of the Gregorian calendar, a f airly standard non-religious system and the one Americans are most familiar with. But almost none of tomorrow's holidays actually follows that calendar. All Muslim holy days, for instance, are calculated on a lunar system. Keyed to the phases of the moon, Islam's 12 months are each 29 and a half days long, for a total of 354 days a year, or 11 days fewer than on ours. That means the holidays rotate backward around the Gregorian calendar, occurring 11 days earlier each year. That is why you can have an easy Ramadan in the spring, when going without water all day is relatively easy, or a hard one in the summer. And why the Prophet's birthday will be on March 9 next year. Then there is the Jewish calendar, which determines the placement of Purim. It is lunisolar, which means that holidays wander with the moon until they reach the end of what might be thought of as a month-long tether, which has the effect of maintaining them in the same seaso n every year. Good Friday, meanwhile, like many of the other most important Christian holidays, is a set number of days before Easter. The only problem is that the date of Easter is probably the most complicated celebratory calculation this side of Hinduism, which has a number of competing religious calendars. The standard rule is the Sunday after the first full moon on or after the day of the vernal equinox. But in fact, the actual divination of the date is so involved that it has its own offical name: computus. And so challenging that Carl Friedrich Gauss, one of history's greatest mathematicians, devoted the time to create an algorithm for it. It goes on for many lines. And, of course, it doesn't work for Eastern Orthodox Easter (about
Re: Interesting Day
Ronn! wrote: Good Friday! Happy Purim, Eid, etc... Very interesting as my son was married yesterday and while many of his new wives Persian family members knew it was the Narouz, I'm sure the kids didn't know any of that when they chose the date. Doug ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Fwd: Interesting Day
Good Friday! Happy Purim, Eid, etc... Wednesday, Mar. 19, 2008 By DAVID VAN BIEMA WITH SIMON ROBINSON/NEW DELHI On Friday more than a billion Christians around the world will mark the gravest observance on their Calendar, Good Friday, the day Jesus died on the cross. (To be followed in two days by Easter Sunday, to mark his Resurrection). But unlike some holy days, say, Christmas, which some non-Christians in the U.S. observe informally by going to a movie and ordering Chinese food, on this particular Friday, March 21, it seems almost no believer of any sort will be left without his or her own holiday. In what is statistically, at least, a once-in-a-millennium combination, the following will all occur on the 21st: Good Friday Purim, a Jewish festival celebrating the biblical book of Esther Narouz, the Persian New Year, which is observed with Islamic elaboration in Iran and all the stan countries, as well as by Zoroastrians and Baha'is. Eid Milad an Nabi, the Birth of the Prophet, which is celebrated by some but not all Sunni Muslims and, though officially beginning on Thursday, is often marked on Friday. Small Holi, Hindu, an Indian festival of bonfires, to be followed on Saturday by Holi, a kind of Mardi Gras. Magha Puja, a celebration of the Buddha's first group of followers, marked primarily in Thailand. Half the world's population is going to be celebrating something, says Raymond Clothey, Professor Emeritus of Religious studies at the University of Pittsburgh. My goodness, says Delton Krueger, owner of www.interfaithcalendar.org, who follows 14 major religions and six others. He counts 20 holidays altogether (including some religious double-dips, like Maundy Thursday and Good Friday) between the 20th (which is also quite crowded) and the 21st. He marvels: There is no other time in 2008 when there is this kind of concentration. And in fact for quite a bit longer than that. Ed Reingold and Nachum Dershowitz, co-authors of the books Calendrical Calculations and Calendrical Tabulations, determined how often in the period between 1600 and 2400 A.D. Good Friday, Purim, Narouz and the Eid would occur in the same week. The answer is nine times in 800 years. Then they tackled the odds that they would converge on a two-day period. And the total is ... only once: tomorrow. And that's not even counting Magha Puja and Small Holi. Unless you are mathematically inclined, however, you may not see the logic in all this. If it's the 21st of March, you may ask, shouldn't all the religions of the world celebrate the same holiday on that date each year? No. There are a sprinkling of major holidays (Western Christmas is one) that fall each year on the same day of the Gregorian calendar, a fairly standard non-religious system and the one Americans are most familiar with. But almost none of tomorrow's holidays actually follows that calendar. All Muslim holy days, for instance, are calculated on a lunar system. Keyed to the phases of the moon, Islam's 12 months are each 29 and a half days long, for a total of 354 days a year, or 11 days fewer than on ours. That means the holidays rotate backward around the Gregorian calendar, occurring 11 days earlier each year. That is why you can have an easy Ramadan in the spring, when going without water all day is relatively easy, or a hard one in the summer. And why the Prophet's birthday will be on March 9 next year. Then there is the Jewish calendar, which determines the placement of Purim. It is lunisolar, which means that holidays wander with the moon until they reach the end of what might be thought of as a month-long tether, which has the effect of maintaining them in the same season every year. Good Friday, meanwhile, like many of the other most important Christian holidays, is a set number of days before Easter. The only problem is that the date of Easter is probably the most complicated celebratory calculation this side of Hinduism, which has a number of competing religious calendars. The standard rule is the Sunday after the first full moon on or after the day of the vernal equinox. But in fact, the actual divination of the date is so involved that it has its own offical name: computus. And so challenging that Carl Friedrich Gauss, one of history's greatest mathematicians, devoted the time to create an algorithm for it. It goes on for many lines. And, of course, it doesn't work for Eastern Orthodox Easter (about one month later than the Western Christian one this year, on April 27). So, should we celebrate all these celebrations? Yes, says William Paden, the author of Religious Worlds: The Comparative Study of Religion and a professor at the University of Vermont ? at least to the extent that we revere the drive to carve out sacred time in the middle of the day-by-day profane. Each of these religions is creating its own world, with its own time and space and memory system, he says. They recognize
RE: Interesting Day
And Thursday was one of the 8 pagan holidays, the Spring Equinoxhttp://idiotgrrl.livejournal.com/ Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2008 20:39:00 -0500 To: brin-l@mccmedia.com From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Fwd: Interesting Day Good Friday! Happy Purim, Eid, etc... Wednesday, Mar. 19, 2008 By DAVID VAN BIEMA WITH SIMON ROBINSON/NEW DELHI On Friday more than a billion Christians around the world will mark the gravest observance on their Calendar, Good Friday, the day Jesus died on the cross. (To be followed in two days by Easter Sunday, to mark his Resurrection). But unlike some holy days, say, Christmas, which some non-Christians in the U.S. observe informally by going to a movie and ordering Chinese food, on this particular Friday, March 21, it seems almost no believer of any sort will be left without his or her own holiday. In what is statistically, at least, a once-in-a-millennium combination, the following will all occur on the 21st: Good Friday Purim, a Jewish festival celebrating the biblical book of Esther Narouz, the Persia n New Year, which is observed with Islamic elaboration in Iran and all the stan countries, as well as by Zoroastrians and Baha'is. Eid Milad an Nabi, the Birth of the Prophet, which is celebrated by some but not all Sunni Muslims and, though officially beginning on Thursday, is often marked on Friday. Small Holi, Hindu, an Indian festival of bonfires, to be followed on Saturday by Holi, a kind of Mardi Gras. Magha Puja, a celebration of the Buddha's first group of followers, marked primarily in Thailand. Half the world's population is going to be celebrating something, says Raymond Clothey, Professor Emeritus of Religious studies at the University of Pittsburgh. My goodness, says Delton Krueger, owner of www.interfaithcalendar.org, who follows 14 major religions and six others. He counts 20 holidays altogether (including some religious double-dips, like Maundy Thursday and Good Friday) between the 20th (which is also quite crowded) and t he 21st. He marvels: There is no other time in 2008 when there is this kind of concentration. And in fact for quite a bit longer than that. Ed Reingold and Nachum Dershowitz, co-authors of the books Calendrical Calculations and Calendrical Tabulations, determined how often in the period between 1600 and 2400 A.D. Good Friday, Purim, Narouz and the Eid would occur in the same week. The answer is nine times in 800 years. Then they tackled the odds that they would converge on a two-day period. And the total is ... only once: tomorrow. And that's not even counting Magha Puja and Small Holi. Unless you are mathematically inclined, however, you may not see the logic in all this. If it's the 21st of March, you may ask, shouldn't all the religions of the world celebrate the same holiday on that date each year? No. There are a sprinkling of major holidays (Western Christmas is one) that fall each year on the same day of the Gregorian calendar, a f airly standard non-religious system and the one Americans are most familiar with. But almost none of tomorrow's holidays actually follows that calendar. All Muslim holy days, for instance, are calculated on a lunar system. Keyed to the phases of the moon, Islam's 12 months are each 29 and a half days long, for a total of 354 days a year, or 11 days fewer than on ours. That means the holidays rotate backward around the Gregorian calendar, occurring 11 days earlier each year. That is why you can have an easy Ramadan in the spring, when going without water all day is relatively easy, or a hard one in the summer. And why the Prophet's birthday will be on March 9 next year. Then there is the Jewish calendar, which determines the placement of Purim. It is lunisolar, which means that holidays wander with the moon until they reach the end of what might be thought of as a month-long tether, which has the effect of maintaining them in the same seaso n every year. Good Friday, meanwhile, like many of the other most important Christian holidays, is a set number of days before Easter. The only problem is that the date of Easter is probably the most complicated celebratory calculation this side of Hinduism, which has a number of competing religious calendars. The standard rule is the Sunday after the first full moon on or after the day of the vernal equinox. But in fact, the actual divination of the date is so involved that it has its own offical name: computus. And so challenging that Carl Friedrich Gauss, one of history's greatest mathematicians, devoted the time to create an algorithm for it. It goes on for many lines. And, of course, it doesn't work for Eastern Orthodox Easter (about one month later than the Western Christian one this year, on April 27). So, should we celebrate all these celebrations? Yes, says William Paden, the author of Religious Worlds: The Comparative Study
Interesting list
http://www.economist.com/research/styleGuide/index.cfm?page=673903 This is a list of words that get misused a lot. Examples: Appraise means set a price on. Apprise means inform. Blooded means pedigreed or initiated. Bloodied means wounded. Collapse is not transitive. You may collapse, but you may not collapse something. Discreet means circumspect or prudent; discrete means separate or distinct. Remember that Questions are never indiscreet. Answers sometimes are. (Oscar Wilde) Effectively means with effect; if you mean in effect, say it.The matter was effectively dealt with on Friday means it was done well on Friday. The matter was, in effect, dealt with on Friday means it was more or less attended to on Friday. Effectively leaderless would do as a description of the demonstrators in East Germany in 1989 but not those in Tiananmen Square. The devaluation of the Slovak currency in 1993, described by some as an effective 8%, turned out to be a rather ineffective 8%. Flaunt means display; flout means disdain. If you flout this distinction, you will flaunt your ignorance. (And that's as much as I'm going to copy paste right now.) Julia ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Interesting list
On Dec 19, 2007 6:26 AM, Julia Thompson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: http://www.economist.com/research/styleGuide/index.cfm?page=673903 This is a list of words that get misused a lot. The Economist is a British publication, so the usages (and spelling) are not necessarily the same as we'd consider proper on this side of the pond. Around here, I don't think it is particularly uncomplimentary to say that a salesperson or company is aggressive. And we spell etiology without that silly extra 'a.' And a brokerage is and does over here. Etc. As for among and between, that one annoys me when people misuse it... and every time I have to use the BETWEEN operator in SQL, I'm slightly annoyed. In SQL, BETWEEN 1 AND 10 means 1 to 10 inclusive, even though the actual integers between 1 and 10 actually are 2 through 9. But I manage. I hate centered around, no matter how you spell center/centre. Back when integrated circuits were less common, I was frequently amused by the notion of discreet electronics. We could probably use more of them. I see disinterested misused more and more. Frankenstein was not a monster, but its creator. I think this is just pickiness about metaphor, which drives a lot of language. The word has come to mean the monster. At least over here. *Haver* means to *talk nonsense*, not *dither*,* swither *or *waver*. Haver? Swither? These are English words? My mother the English teacher despises the word hopefully. I'm not so bothered. Sometimes I use it just to see if she'll still correct me. Hopefully, some day she won't. A sad omission -- phase and faze. Every time I read that someone was phased (or unphased), I think Star Trek and its phasers. At least I think those were phasers, not fazers. Nick -- Nick Arnett [EMAIL PROTECTED] Messages: 408-904-7198 ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Interesting list
On 19 Dec 2007, at 15:46, Nick Arnett wrote: *Haver* means to *talk nonsense*, not *dither*,* swither *or *waver*. Haver? Swither? These are English words? They are in common use around here. -- William T Goodall Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web : http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/ Two years from now, spam will be solved. - Bill Gates, 2004 ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Interesting list
On Dec 19, 2007 8:48 AM, William T Goodall [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 19 Dec 2007, at 15:46, Nick Arnett wrote: *Haver* means to *talk nonsense*, not *dither*,* swither *or *waver*. Haver? Swither? These are English words? They are in common use around here. Concerning religion, undoubtedly ;-) Nick -- William T Goodall Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web : http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/ Two years from now, spam will be solved. - Bill Gates, 2004 ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l -- Nick Arnett [EMAIL PROTECTED] Messages: 408-904-7198 ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Interesting list
On 19 Dec 2007, at 17:15, Nick Arnett wrote: On Dec 19, 2007 8:48 AM, William T Goodall [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 19 Dec 2007, at 15:46, Nick Arnett wrote: *Haver* means to *talk nonsense*, not *dither*,* swither *or *waver*. Haver? Swither? These are English words? They are in common use around here. Concerning religion, undoubtedly ;-) I never swither about calling religious cant havering :) -- William T Goodall Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web : http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/ There's no chance that the iPhone is going to get any significant market share. No chance - Steve Ballmer ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Interesting list
On Dec 19, 2007, at 10:29 AM, William T Goodall wrote: On 19 Dec 2007, at 17:15, Nick Arnett wrote: On Dec 19, 2007 8:48 AM, William T Goodall [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 19 Dec 2007, at 15:46, Nick Arnett wrote: *Haver* means to *talk nonsense*, not *dither*,* swither *or *waver*. Haver? Swither? These are English words? They are in common use around here. Concerning religion, undoubtedly ;-) I never swither about calling religious cant havering :) Indeed, not: you chunter on about it. Dave ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Most interesting social networking link I've seen
Here it is... The Constitution of the United States, whose current occupation is Owners manual. http://www.linkedin.com/profile?viewProfile=key=15161017goback=%2Ebcc_2908_2 I'm only one degree away from it, thanks to John Perry Barlow. Nick -- Nick Arnett [EMAIL PROTECTED] Messages: 408-904-7198 ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Most interesting social networking link I've seen
- Original Message - From: Nick Arnett [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Killer Bs Discussion brin-l@mccmedia.com Sent: Monday, November 26, 2007 9:34 AM Subject: Most interesting social networking link I've seen Here it is... The Constitution of the United States, whose current occupation is Owners manual. http://www.linkedin.com/profile?viewProfile=key=15161017goback=%2Ebcc_2908_2 I'm only one degree away from it, thanks to John Perry Barlow. Now you are one degree away from it twice. G xponent Constitutional Maru rob ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Most interesting social networking link I've seen
Robert Seeberger wrote: - Original Message - From: Nick Arnett [EMAIL PROTECTED] ... Here it is... The Constitution of the United States, whose current occupation is Owners manual. http://www.linkedin.com/profile?viewProfile=key=15161017goback=%2Ebcc_2908_2 I'm only one degree away from it, thanks to John Perry Barlow. Now you are one degree away from it twice. ... Nick and/or Robert-- So I clicked on the link, joined Linkedin, and then found out I was an isolated node. I don't really have any desire to add a third social networking system to Facebook and Myspace, so I don't feel like entering addresses and invites. Meaning the whole exercise was pointless, and I should have realized this upon seeing linkedin in the URL. Or? : ) ---David But I alone am drifting, not knowing where I am. Like a newborn babe before it learns to smile, I am alone, without a place to go. Maru. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Religion is Interesting: Why it Must Be Discussed
On Fri, 27 Jul 2007, Dave Land wrote: On Jul 27, 2007, at 8:37 PM, Nick Arnett wrote: On 7/27/07, Dave Land [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Anyway, I call myself a Christian because I haven't invested the time to come up with a better label, but as Christianity walks one way and I walk another, the time for coming up with a better label may be upon me soon. Um, doesn't it have to do the way that Christ walked, not the way Christians walk? If I could walk like that, I wouldn't need talcum powder. Dave [spit-take] Julia ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Religion is Interesting: Why it Must Be Discussed
On Jul 27, 2007, at 4:28 PM, jon louis mann wrote: Amen, Brother! I am very nearly one of those Christians. The Bible may very well be a human product that tells us what certain groups of very, very opinionated people thought about God, but I believe it tells us only a little about what God may think. If, in fact, God exists and is sentient in any fashion that we would recognize. Dave sounds to me, brother, that you are a CINO (christian in name only). the bible as metaphor argument smacks to me as lacking commitment, perhaps, or straddling on the fence? dave, you seem less metaphorical? perhaps a metaphysical christian, or just a plain mystic? Probably. I have a hard time getting a handle on what people mean when they call themselves or others mystics... As for the CINO label, I am reasonably certain that no small number of today's American Christians would concur with that assessment. I am a member of a Methodist congregation in California, led by two pastors educated at the Pacific School of Religion in Berkeley, which is about as far to the liberal end of the spectrum as you can get and still call yourself a Christian. I think that Jesus was a man uniquely connected with the divine (to pick a phrase that wildly liberal teachers like Spong and Borg use to avoid all the freight that comes with God), who so radiated that connection that none who came in contact with him could fail to notice it and be moved by it. Some of them, trying to explain the ineffable numinous experience of being with him, inevitably used metaphors that others took literally. Perhaps even It's as if he wasn't even born the way normal men are, he's so different. Anyway, I call myself a Christian because I haven't invested the time to come up with a better label, but as Christianity walks one way and I walk another, the time for coming up with a better label may be upon me soon. Dave Christic Mystian Land ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Religion is Interesting: Why it Must Be Discussed
On 7/27/07, Dave Land [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Anyway, I call myself a Christian because I haven't invested the time to come up with a better label, but as Christianity walks one way and I walk another, the time for coming up with a better label may be upon me soon. Um, doesn't it have to do the way that Christ walked, not the way Christians walk? Nick -- Nick Arnett [EMAIL PROTECTED] Messages: 408-904-7198 ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Religion is Interesting: Why it Must Be Discussed
On Jul 27, 2007, at 8:37 PM, Nick Arnett wrote: On 7/27/07, Dave Land [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Anyway, I call myself a Christian because I haven't invested the time to come up with a better label, but as Christianity walks one way and I walk another, the time for coming up with a better label may be upon me soon. Um, doesn't it have to do the way that Christ walked, not the way Christians walk? If I could walk like that, I wouldn't need talcum powder. Dave ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: interesting website
Gary Nunn wrote: Not sure what I would classify that website as, but I ran across it this morning, and it's one of my new favorites. It's a collection of links to interesting news stories. http://www.fark.com/ Gary-- Thanks, it is interesting. I tried it for awhile, but am giving up. Too many of the links have cutesy titles which don't clearly state what the story is about. Result: I spent too much time reading low-content articles. ---David Now if you want funny, or dumb, that you can get... ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
interesting website
Not sure what I would classify that website as, but I ran across it this morning, and it's one of my new favorites. It's a collection of links to interesting news stories. http://www.fark.com/ _ The Vulcan Neck Pinch is not half as powerful as the Vulcan Groin Kick, but it's more politically correct. ~ Quotes you'll never hear on Star Trek. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: interesting website
Not sure what I would classify that website as, but I ran across it this morning, and it's one of my new favorites. It's a collection of links to interesting news stories. http://www.fark.com/ I think my favorite part is the classification of the different articles: Asinine, Dumbass, Strange, Interesting, Follow-Up, Obvious, Cool, Stupid, etc... Gary--- Who just realized how pathetic it is to reply to his own posts :-) ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: interesting website
Gary Nunn wrote: Not sure what I would classify that website as, but I ran across it this morning, and it's one of my new favorites. It's a collection of links to interesting news stories. http://www.fark.com/ I think my favorite part is the classification of the different articles: Asinine, Dumbass, Strange, Interesting, Follow-Up, Obvious, Cool, Stupid, etc... Gary--- Who just realized how pathetic it is to reply to his own posts :-) So does that fall under Dumbass or Follow-Up? ;) Julia ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: interesting website
So does that fall under Dumbass or Follow-Up? ;) Julia If you were to ask my ex-wife, it should be follow-up by the dumbass :-) Gary ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: interesting website
Gary Nunn wrote: So does that fall under Dumbass or Follow-Up? ;) Julia If you were to ask my ex-wife, it should be follow-up by the dumbass :-) Remind me not to ask your ex-wife about you, then. :) Julia ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: interesting website
- Original Message - From: Julia Thompson [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Killer Bs Discussion brin-l@mccmedia.com Sent: Saturday, November 25, 2006 10:51 AM Subject: Re: interesting website Gary Nunn wrote: Not sure what I would classify that website as, but I ran across it this morning, and it's one of my new favorites. It's a collection of links to interesting news stories. http://www.fark.com/ I think my favorite part is the classification of the different articles: Asinine, Dumbass, Strange, Interesting, Follow-Up, Obvious, Cool, Stupid, etc... Gary--- Who just realized how pathetic it is to reply to his own posts :-) So does that fall under Dumbass or Follow-Up? I often do dumbass followups. xponent In My Nature Maru rob ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Interesting blog
More catching up- Julia Thompson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: A surgeon started a blog recently. I found this entry particularly interesting: http://surgeonsblog.blogspot.com/2006/07/global-warming-inoperable-truth.html Amazing - a surgeon with a non-ossified sense of humor, including gasp about himself! The following response to a derogatory commentator made me LOL: My feeling is that people who reject science shouldn't be allowed to have it both ways: no global warming -- no antibiotics for you. No evolution -- no herceptin. But I digress. For now, thanks for visiting. Come again. Ditto! Debbi Equine-Produced Greenhouse Gases Are Reduced Compared To 100 Years Ago Maru ;) __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Interesting blog
A surgeon started a blog recently. I found this entry particularly interesting: http://surgeonsblog.blogspot.com/2006/07/global-warming-inoperable-truth.html (If that entry name doesn't capture someone's attention here, I don't know what will. :D ) Julia ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Myers-Briggs (was: Blog entry with interesting comment)
At 05:10 PM Saturday 5/6/2006, The Fool wrote: [snipped] Fool, I'm just curious. Most of the articles you post are ones claiming that there are problems with this, that, and the other. Can you give us some examples of something concrete (not abstractions like the truth or rational thinking and behavior) that you are _for_? --Ronn! :) Since I was a small boy, two states have been added to our country and two words have been added to the pledge of Allegiance... UNDER GOD. Wouldn't it be a pity if someone said that is a prayer and that would be eliminated from schools too? -- Red Skelton (Someone asked me to change my .sig quote back, so I did.) ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Myers-Briggs (was: Blog entry with interesting comment)
Ten or fifteen years ago, I gave Kiersey style Myers-Briggs tests to dozen people I knew. And anecdotal evidince has what value in science? Well, you need not pay any attention to my report. My experience was that when I gave a test to a dozen people, I found that a bit more than half the results matched the categories into which I fit people in other ways. Moreover, since I myself did the experiment and followed the reasoning, I had an internal experience that I found convincing to myself. Guardians of birthdays, holidays and celebrations, Virgo's are generous entertainers. They enjoy and joyfully observe traditions and are liberal in giving, especially where custom prescribes. All else being equal, Virgo's enjoy being in charge. They see problems clearly and delegate easily, work hard and play with zest. Virgo's, bear strong allegiance to rights of seniority. They willingly provide service (which embodies life's meaning) and expect the same from others. vrs Pices's are pensive, analytical folks. They may venture so deeply into thought as to seem detached, and often actually are oblivious to the world around them. Precise about their descriptions, Pices's will often correct others (or be sorely tempted to) if the shade of meaning is a bit off. While annoying to the less concise, this fine discrimination ability gives Pices's so inclined a natural advantage as, for example, grammarians and linguists. Reads like an astrology collumn in the newspaper. Doesn't to me, unless of course, you pay attention to the names (like Pices and Virgo). To me, Forer's text as given in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forer_effect sounds much more like an astrology column. -- Robert J. Chassell [EMAIL PROTECTED] GnuPG Key ID: 004B4AC8 http://www.rattlesnake.com http://www.teak.cc ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Myers-Briggs (was: Blog entry with interesting comment)
If it's science at all, it's a very fluffy kind of science. Ten or fifteen years ago, I gave Kiersey style Myers-Briggs tests to a dozen people I knew. I felt the results were accurate in about 7 of those 12 cases. So I decided it was pretty good for this kind of topic (and no good at all if you seek only 25% error.) What is the probability of 7 out of 12 people each choosing 1 out of 16 randomly? I tend to doubt the Forer effect is highly important for Myers-Briggs, although doubtless, it is somewhat important. (According to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forer_effect The Forer effect ... is the observation that individuals will give high accuracy ratings to descriptions of their personality that supposedly are tailored specifically for them, but are in fact vague and general enough to apply to a wide range of people. (The article also gives Forer's text.) Here are the first two paragraphs of 2 of 16 MBTI profiles from http://www.typelogic.com/; they seem to me quite different. When given a choice of which to choose, I doubt an ESFJ would choose to be described as an INTP although he or she might well choose a description closer to his or her temperament. Guardians of birthdays, holidays and celebrations, ESFJs are generous entertainers. They enjoy and joyfully observe traditions and are liberal in giving, especially where custom prescribes. All else being equal, ESFJs enjoy being in charge. They see problems clearly and delegate easily, work hard and play with zest. ESFJs, as do most SJs, bear strong allegiance to rights of seniority. They willingly provide service (which embodies life's meaning) and expect the same from others. vrs INTPs are pensive, analytical folks. They may venture so deeply into thought as to seem detached, and often actually are oblivious to the world around them. Precise about their descriptions, INTPs will often correct others (or be sorely tempted to) if the shade of meaning is a bit off. While annoying to the less concise, this fine discrimination ability gives INTPs so inclined a natural advantage as, for example, grammarians and linguists. -- Robert J. Chassell [EMAIL PROTECTED] GnuPG Key ID: 004B4AC8 http://www.rattlesnake.com http://www.teak.cc ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Myers-Briggs (was: Blog entry with interesting comment)
From: Robert J. Chassell [EMAIL PROTECTED] If it's science at all, it's a very fluffy kind of science. Ten or fifteen years ago, I gave Kiersey style Myers-Briggs tests to a dozen people I knew. I felt the results were accurate in about 7 of those 12 cases. So I decided it was pretty good for this kind of topic (and no good at all if you seek only 25% error.) What is the probability of 7 out of 12 people each choosing 1 out of 16 randomly? And anecdotal evidince has what value in science? I tend to doubt the Forer effect is highly important for Myers-Briggs, although doubtless, it is somewhat important. (According to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forer_effect The Forer effect ... is the observation that individuals will give high accuracy ratings to descriptions of their personality that supposedly are tailored specifically for them, but are in fact vague and general enough to apply to a wide range of people. (The article also gives Forer's text.) Here are the first two paragraphs of 2 of 16 MBTI profiles from http://www.typelogic.com/; they seem to me quite different. When given a choice of which to choose, I doubt an ESFJ would choose to be described as an INTP although he or she might well choose a description closer to his or her temperament. Guardians of birthdays, holidays and celebrations, Virgo's are generous entertainers. They enjoy and joyfully observe traditions and are liberal in giving, especially where custom prescribes. All else being equal, Virgo's enjoy being in charge. They see problems clearly and delegate easily, work hard and play with zest. Virgo's, bear strong allegiance to rights of seniority. They willingly provide service (which embodies life's meaning) and expect the same from others. vrs Pices's are pensive, analytical folks. They may venture so deeply into thought as to seem detached, and often actually are oblivious to the world around them. Precise about their descriptions, Pices's will often correct others (or be sorely tempted to) if the shade of meaning is a bit off. While annoying to the less concise, this fine discrimination ability gives Pices's so inclined a natural advantage as, for example, grammarians and linguists. Reads like an astrology collumn in the newspaper. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Blog entry with interesting comment
On 5/4/06, Horn, John [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: All the books are aimed at boys. Both the AS and the ADD books. It seems that AS presents itself differently in girls so that makes it very difficult to pick good books. I think you may be mistaken about this. Many of the ADD books are written by women, many of whom are ADD themselves You Mean I'm not Lazy Stupid or Crazy was written by two women. Lynn Weiss, whose books I also appreciated, appears to be a woman, judging by her photo. This list on Amazon.com -- *ADD experience (by a woman) --* has a bunch of books about ADD, many written by women : http://www.amazon.com/gp/richpub/listmania/fullview/9WZ48993GPB2/104-0155161-9687918?%5Fencoding=UTF8 Nick -- Nick Arnett [EMAIL PROTECTED] Messages: 408-904-7198 ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Blog entry with interesting comment
Thanks! http://idiotgrrl.livejournal.com/ From: Nick Arnett [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: Killer Bs Discussion brin-l@mccmedia.com To: Killer Bs Discussion brin-l@mccmedia.com Subject: Re: Blog entry with interesting comment Date: Fri, 5 May 2006 07:00:19 -0700 On 5/4/06, Horn, John [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: All the books are aimed at boys. Both the AS and the ADD books. It seems that AS presents itself differently in girls so that makes it very difficult to pick good books. I think you may be mistaken about this. Many of the ADD books are written by women, many of whom are ADD themselves You Mean I'm not Lazy Stupid or Crazy was written by two women. Lynn Weiss, whose books I also appreciated, appears to be a woman, judging by her photo. This list on Amazon.com -- *ADD experience (by a woman) --* has a bunch of books about ADD, many written by women : http://www.amazon.com/gp/richpub/listmania/fullview/9WZ48993GPB2/104-0155161-9687918?%5Fencoding=UTF8 Nick -- Nick Arnett [EMAIL PROTECTED] Messages: 408-904-7198 ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: Blog entry with interesting comment
I'm combining posts here- PAT MATHEWS [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: snippage 3) Again in my observation, Aspies come in roughly two flavors: the organized, single-focused, linear mind; and the absent-minded professor/free-spirited idea mill. Inattentive ADD goes with the latter. If you have any use for the Myer-Briggs at all, these map very roughly onto INTJ and INTP respectively. I mention this because books on the Myer-Briggs has a lot of good tips for life which are quite useful even though they're designed for the 'normal' end of the spectrum. Now I'll have to look that stuff back up -- I remember that I'm INFJ, but don't recall all that that means (introvert, intuitive...feeling, judging?) 5) The very first thing I'd do in your shoes is find out her strengths and work from there. Also her obsessions if she has any. Don't let her dismiss them as Oh, that's EASY the way some people do, apparently thinking the only way to make a living is at something you have to work on. Wrong. Then mildly correct her weaknesses through *teaching.* A lot of stuff can be learned, I'm here to tell you. Having a couple of 'traditional learning challenged' students, I've learned to use multiple modalities to get information across: verbal, tactile, visual (which can be highly amusing, to judge by the laughter). Our current schooling system is poorly equipped to deal with these children's learning needs; one thing that would really help is much smaller teacher/student ratios. I have several teacher friends who are very frustrated by knowing *how* to deal with their ADD or ADHD kids, but they haven't got time or resources to do so properly. For example, I'm sorry, I have trouble recognizing even people I know across the room, (takes off glasses and cleans them), would you mind letting me know you're here? winces I simply don't recognize people out of their usual context in my universe, except for long-time friends and co-workers. I explain it as resulting froma closed-head injury, which most folk seem to graciously accept. Julia wrote: Any medication should be prescribed by a doctor with some expertise in the area. A pediatric neurologist would be good, if you're hooked up with one. Amen. There are FPs and pediatricians who have made 'children with learning-difficulties' their unofficial subspecialty by serious self-education, but the number of children placed on psychoactive drugs by unqualified (IMO) docs is staggering. Debbi Skeptical Believer Maru;-) __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: Blog entry with interesting comment
On Behalf Of Nick Arnett All the books are aimed at boys. Both the AS and the ADD books. It seems that AS presents itself differently in girls so that makes it very difficult to pick good books. I think you may be mistaken about this. Many of the ADD books are written by women, many of whom are ADD themselves I didn't mean they were all written by men. In the case of the AS books, all of them seem aimed at boys or parent's of boys. Almost all of the examples are of boys: the case studies, the recommendations are aimed at boys. Maybe we just haven't stumbled into the right ones yet. - jmh ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Myers-Briggs (was: Blog entry with interesting comment)
Ok, here are a few sites for those curious: http://www.personalitypathways.com/MBTI_intro.html http://www.personalitypathways.com/type_inventory.html And for the skeptical (I have only skimmed this, as it's time to head out): http://skepdic.com/myersb.html I do have a problem with this site's dismissal of intuitive thinking; from my observations experience in the medical field, a lot of intuition (including my own) is actually based on essentially sub-conscious integration of observations with prior knowledge. It's sort of like thinking without realizing it; it seems almost magical at times because one isn't aware of the processes ongoing, as they occur so swiftly. But without a foundation of education, learned knowledge, and prior experience, 'intuition' is as likely to be wrong as not. From the first site above: INFJ: Seek meaning and connection in ideas, relationships, and material possessions. Want to understand what motivates people and are insightful about others. Conscientious and committed to their firm values. Develop a clear vision about how best to serve the common good. Organized and decisive in implementing their vision. Hmm, pretty good except for that last bit - I am *not* the best-organized person. Feeling: Naturally seek consensus and popular opinions. Unsettled by conflict; have almost a toxic reaction to disharmony. Uh, yep. OTOH, I'm split between the J and P, which makes me feel a little better, not desiring to be known as judgemental...even though in many ways, I am. INFP: Idealistic, loyal to their values and to people who are important to them. Want an external life that is congruent with their values. Curious, quick to see possibilities, can be catalysts for implementing ideas. Seek to understand people and to help them fulfill their potential. Adaptable, flexible, and accepting unless a value is threatened. Debbi Still A Skeptical Believer And Pragmatic Idealist Maru ;-) __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: Myers-Briggs (was: Blog entry with interesting comment)
At any rate, you still test out Idealist, and in many ways that's the most important part because it's the central theme of your life. Pat, INTP but unwilling to make up my mind oh, look, a bird! BAD kitties! http://idiotgrrl.livejournal.com/ From: Deborah Harrell [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: Killer Bs Discussion brin-l@mccmedia.com To: brin-l@mccmedia.com Subject: Myers-Briggs (was: Blog entry with interesting comment) Date: Fri, 5 May 2006 11:39:57 -0700 (PDT) Ok, here are a few sites for those curious: http://www.personalitypathways.com/MBTI_intro.html http://www.personalitypathways.com/type_inventory.html And for the skeptical (I have only skimmed this, as it's time to head out): http://skepdic.com/myersb.html I do have a problem with this site's dismissal of intuitive thinking; from my observations experience in the medical field, a lot of intuition (including my own) is actually based on essentially sub-conscious integration of observations with prior knowledge. It's sort of like thinking without realizing it; it seems almost magical at times because one isn't aware of the processes ongoing, as they occur so swiftly. But without a foundation of education, learned knowledge, and prior experience, 'intuition' is as likely to be wrong as not. From the first site above: INFJ: Seek meaning and connection in ideas, relationships, and material possessions. Want to understand what motivates people and are insightful about others. Conscientious and committed to their firm values. Develop a clear vision about how best to serve the common good. Organized and decisive in implementing their vision. Hmm, pretty good except for that last bit - I am *not* the best-organized person. Feeling: Naturally seek consensus and popular opinions. Unsettled by conflict; have almost a toxic reaction to disharmony. Uh, yep. OTOH, I'm split between the J and P, which makes me feel a little better, not desiring to be known as judgemental...even though in many ways, I am. INFP: Idealistic, loyal to their values and to people who are important to them. Want an external life that is congruent with their values. Curious, quick to see possibilities, can be catalysts for implementing ideas. Seek to understand people and to help them fulfill their potential. Adaptable, flexible, and accepting unless a value is threatened. Debbi Still A Skeptical Believer And Pragmatic Idealist Maru ;-) __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Myers-Briggs (was: Blog entry with interesting comment)
On May 5, 2006, at 11:39 AM, Deborah Harrell wrote: OTOH, I'm split between the J and P, which makes me feel a little better, not desiring to be known as judgemental...even though in many ways, I am. Some are confused by the language of MBTI, and find one or the other terms for each of the four dimensions pejorative and the other laudatory. Neither is not intended to be either: no value judgment is made on either end of any of the spectra. For example, Judging does not mean judgmental. It merely refers to a preference for closure as opposed to the preference for open-ended-ness among perceptives. And, of course, each is a spectrum: I doubt that anybody is all extroverted or all introverted (although I am pretty well slammed against the rails on the extroverted side). It's not at all uncommon to find oneself in the middle on one of the axes: I'm about halfway between thinking and feeling -- given some conversations I've had on that subject lately, I'd lay odds that I naturally gravitate towards the feeling end of the scale, but that socialization has skewed me towards thinking. Katherine Benziger (http://www.benziger.org/), whose Benziger Thinking Styles Assessment (BTSA) is not so very different from MTBI, writes about a condition she calls Falsification of Type that leads, she says, to much grief. I would guess that if I'm right about my natural predilection towards feeling vs. socialization towards thinking is valid, I probably exhibit her Falsification of Type. (Of course I would guess is a very iNtuitive thing to say, isn't it?) Dave ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Myers-Briggs (was: Blog entry with interesting comment)
Dave Land wrote: And, of course, each is a spectrum: Because they are spectra there are a number of encoding schemes out there to try to disambiguate those that move or are near the lines, and some psychologists will tell you the categorizations are meaningless without the full test and knowledge specific choices within it. (...and others will tell you taking the test is only every valid once or not at all or only on full moons.) For instance, I sometimes find it useful to use xNTP, because I'm pretty firm as far as the NTP side of the spectrum in every test I've taken and generally in my judgment of the system itself says. The I/E I tend to flip-flop depending on several factors. Another choice would be to use something like I?NTP, as the I is often more dominant, but again, subject to change. -- --Max Battcher-- http://www.worldmaker.net/ I'm gonna win, trust in me / I have come to save this world / and in the end I'll get the grrrl! --Machinae Supremacy, Hero (Promo Track) ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Myers-Briggs (was: Blog entry with interesting comment)
On May 5, 2006, at 2:01 PM, Max Battcher wrote: Dave Land wrote: And, of course, each is a spectrum: Because they are spectra there are a number of encoding schemes out there to try to disambiguate those that move or are near the lines, and some psychologists will tell you the categorizations are meaningless without the full test and knowledge specific choices within it. (...and others will tell you taking the test is only every valid once or not at all or only on full moons.) For instance, I sometimes find it useful to use xNTP, because I'm pretty firm as far as the NTP side of the spectrum in every test I've taken and generally in my judgment of the system itself says. The I/E I tend to flip-flop depending on several factors. Another choice would be to use something like I?NTP, as the I is often more dominant, but again, subject to change. Sure. I've taken to writing (on those rare occasions that it needs to be written -- I'm not a type-freak) ENfP, because I am only weakly on the F end of that particular spectrum. As the Fool points out in his inimitable style, this stuff is not mathematics. If it's science at all, it's a very fluffy kind of science. Human behavior and the motivations behind it are notoriously difficult to quantify, frustrating most attempts to do so. Dave Romans 7:15-15 Land ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: Blog entry with interesting comment
On Behalf Of PAT MATHEWS This is going to be a long post of the dump the load variety, so anyone not interested can either delete or skim, but here goes: Wow. Thanks very much (and everyone else who responded as well)!! Much more than I expected. 1) It's not the end of the world. I know it definitely isn't the end of the world. It helps a lot to finally know what is going on and have some answers to (previously) bewildering behavior. And strategies for coping and dealing with it. One of the most wonderful things is to finally have an answer for the other parents who kept saying Why don't you just spank her/discipline more/etc? We knew instinctively that that was absolutely the wrong thing to do. Now we know why. I wouldn't advise her to become, say, an accountant She's wanted to be a kindergarten teacher since she was in, well, kindergarten. She's kinda obsessed with it. ;-) 2) In my observation, the ADD books have a few coping tricks worth mentioning, but 90% of their focus is on the sort of hyperactive boys who are really, really good at grabbing opportunities and running with them; and they all push for medication so hard you'd think they were sponsored by Big Pharma All the books are aimed at boys. Both the AS and the ADD books. It seems that AS presents itself differently in girls so that makes it very difficult to pick good books. Speaking of medicine, she's been on an anti-depressant for a bit which seems to be making a big difference. She just started a stimulant a week ago. Too early to see if it has had any effect at this point. 3) Again in my observation, Aspies come in roughly two flavors: the organized, single-focused, linear mind; and the absent-minded professor/free-spirited idea mill. Inattentive ADD goes with the latter. If you have any use for the Myer-Briggs at all, these map very roughly onto INTJ and INTP respectively. I mention this because books on the Myer-Briggs (a system which is totally non-judgmental and IMO the only system that does NOT make judgments) has a lot of good tips for life, love, acreers, and living with your... in this case, I'd say INTP --- which are quite useful even though they're designed for the 'normal' end of the spectrum. The second one of those is definitely my daughter. Wait a minute, *I'm INTP!! Hmmm My wife and I are very into Myers-Briggs. I'm not sure what my daughter is. I don't think it is either one of those, though. I'll have to ask my wife. 7) Workarounds for inattentive ADD include one that's really useful and really, really cheap. You get a hard-blacked flip-top pad down at Walgreens and the associated input device. Make a To Do list of whatever seems to be needed. Wild Ideas and For the Future on a back page. Obvious but let's not lose track on the front page. If need be, Have done Today. Sounds anal, I know, but there are times it;s really worthwhile to have a little list. I'll have to keep that one in mind. Hope this helps, Yes, it helps a lot! - jmh ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: Blog entry with interesting comment
From: Horn, John [EMAIL PROTECTED] Wow. Thanks very much (and everyone else who responded as well)!! Much more than I expected. Glad to be of help. 1) It's not the end of the world. I know it definitely isn't the end of the world. It helps a lot to finally know what is going on and have some answers to (previously) bewildering behavior. And strategies for coping and dealing with it. One of the most wonderful things is to finally have an answer for the other parents who kept saying Why don't you just spank her/discipline more/etc? We knew instinctively that that was absolutely the wrong thing to do. Now we know why. Wish my dad had had your instincts! I wouldn't advise her to become, say, an accountant She's wanted to be a kindergarten teacher since she was in, well, kindergarten. She's kinda obsessed with it. ;-) Well, then - go for it! One of my close friends, Jay Bainbridge, is a painter who teaches preschool - at a local synagogue. (Did they mind that he's not Jewish? No, but he gets the High Holy Days off anyway.) . It seems that AS presents itself differently in girls so that makes it very difficult to pick good books. Autobiographies. Gorilla Nation by Dawn Price-Hughes (or is it Hughes-Price?) Love her observation that academic politics makes a lot more sense when you treat the department heads and senior professors as if they were silverbacks. Pretending to be Normal by Liane Holliday Willey. I was grabbed by the title because it was my autobiography in two words. Excellent book; interesting person. And ... DO watch BONES on TV. Speaking of medicine, she's been on an anti-depressant for a bit which seems to be making a big difference. She just started a stimulant a week ago. Too early to see if it has had any effect at this point. I've been on caffeine for 52 years. Self-medication seems to be part of it. 3) Again in my observation, Aspies come in roughly two flavors: the organized, single-focused, linear mind; and the absent-minded professor/free-spirited idea mill. Inattentive ADD goes with the latter. If you have any use for the Myer-Briggs at all, these map very roughly onto INTJ and INTP respectively. I mention this because books on the Myer-Briggs (a system which is totally non-judgmental and IMO the only system that does NOT make judgments) has a lot of good tips for life, love, acreers, and living with your... in this case, I'd say INTP --- which are quite useful even though they're designed for the 'normal' end of the spectrum. The second one of those is definitely my daughter. Wait a minute, *I'm INTP!! Hmmm My wife and I are very into Myers-Briggs. I'm not sure what my daughter is. I don't think it is either one of those, though. I'll have to ask my wife. YEs, the kindergarten teacher interest isn't the usual INTP thing, is it? However, whatever she is, go for it. I'll have to keep that one in mind. Hope this helps, Yes, it helps a lot! - jmh ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Blog entry with interesting comment
An essay criticizing skeptics is torn apart here: http://www.autismstreet.org/weblog/?p=39 And the first commenter is James Randi. So I just had to share. Julia ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: Blog entry with interesting comment
On Behalf Of Julia Thompson An essay criticizing skeptics is torn apart here: http://www.autismstreet.org/weblog/?p=39 And the first commenter is James Randi. So I just had to share. A very interesting article. Even more interesting, for me, was the site itself. My daughter was just diagnosed with Asperger's Syndrome and ADHD (inattentive type). I know there are (or were) some on this list with AS or ADHD. Any recommended sites out there for a Mom and Dad struggling to put some order into all this chaos? - jmh ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: Blog entry with interesting comment
From: Horn, John [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: Killer Bs Discussion brin-l@mccmedia.com To: Killer Bs Discussion brin-l@mccmedia.com Subject: RE: Blog entry with interesting comment Date: Wed, 3 May 2006 14:52:34 -0500 On Behalf Of Julia Thompson An essay criticizing skeptics is torn apart here: http://www.autismstreet.org/weblog/?p=39 And the first commenter is James Randi. So I just had to share. A very interesting article. Even more interesting, for me, was the site itself. My daughter was just diagnosed with Asperger's Syndrome and ADHD (inattentive type). I know there are (or were) some on this list with AS or ADHD. Any recommended sites out there for a Mom and Dad struggling to put some order into all this chaos? wrongplanet.net ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Blog entry with interesting comment
Horn, John wrote: On Behalf Of Julia Thompson An essay criticizing skeptics is torn apart here: http://www.autismstreet.org/weblog/?p=39 And the first commenter is James Randi. So I just had to share. A very interesting article. Even more interesting, for me, was the site itself. My daughter was just diagnosed with Asperger's Syndrome and ADHD (inattentive type). I know there are (or were) some on this list with AS or ADHD. Any recommended sites out there for a Mom and Dad struggling to put some order into all this chaos? - jmh If you're looking for blogs that might be of help, check out http://www.autism-hub.co.uk/ ; I can list the ones I'm a particular fan of, if that would help. The Aspie Dad one might be of particular interest to you; very few entries so far, and just joined Autism Hub, but looks promising. (I'll give it a solid thumbs-up when there are another 10 posts or so, probably, but it's not on my greatest hits list yet. Yet.) If you're on LiveJournal, reading the stuff in the asperger community might be somewhat helpful, every now and again there's a book recommendation. (Posting is open only to members, and unless you're on the spectrum yourself, the mods are going to look very hard at your request to join. I can dig up some of the book recommendations if queried; I can tell you that http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0060934883/ was recommended at some point, anyway, and sometimes books are seriously UN-recommended, which can be useful information, as well.) asd_families might be helpful. The community autism might be helpful, as well. (Just going in and reading a couple months' worth of public posts could help, even if you're not into LJ.) Jannalou who comments on some of the autism hub blogs has her own blog, and that might be a good blog to look at. If you need for me to track down that blog, I can. If I think of anything else later, I'll post it. Julia ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: Blog entry with interesting comment
From: Horn, John [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Julia Thompson An essay criticizing skeptics is torn apart here: http://www.autismstreet.org/weblog/?p=39 And the first commenter is James Randi. So I just had to share. A very interesting article. Even more interesting, for me, was the site itself. My daughter was just diagnosed with Asperger's Syndrome and ADHD (inattentive type). I know there are (or were) some on this list with AS or ADHD. Any recommended sites out there for a Mom and Dad struggling to put some order into all this chaos? - jmh This is going to be a long post of the dump the load variety, so anyone not interested can either delete or skim, but here goes: 1) It's not the end of the world. I wouldn't advise her to become, say, an accountant (big mistake on my part!) but we're talking one of the two differences known to be associated with a creative upside. (the other being 'being mildly bipolar') 2) In my observation, the ADD books have a few coping tricks worth mentioning, but 90% of their focus is on the sort of hyperactive boys who are really, really good at grabbing opportunities and running with them; and they all push for medication so hard you'd think they were sponsored by Big Pharma. Get them from the library if you have to bother at all. 3) Again in my observation, Aspies come in roughly two flavors: the organized, single-focused, linear mind; and the absent-minded professor/free-spirited idea mill. Inattentive ADD goes with the latter. If you have any use for the Myer-Briggs at all, these map very roughly onto INTJ and INTP respectively. I mention this because books on the Myer-Briggs (a system which is totally non-judgmental and IMO the only system that does NOT make judgments) has a lot of good tips for life, love, acreers, and living with your... in this case, I'd say INTP --- which are quite useful even though they're designed for the 'normal' end of the spectrum. 4) Book: my all-time favorite is Liane Holliday Willey's Pretending to be Normal. And it's Dr. Willey; she has a PhD in, I think, some branch of linguistics. And is happily married with children. But there are others including some fictional characters I find quite likeable, even loveable. (Terry Pratchett's Leonard of Quirm, anyone?) 5) The very first thing I'd do in your shoes is find out her strengths and work from there. Also her obsessions if she has any. Don't let her dismiss them as Oh, that's EASY the way some people do, apparently thinking the only way to make a living is at something you have to work on. Wrong. Then mildly correct her weaknesses through *teaching.* A lot of stuff can be learned, I'm here to tell you. 6) Beware doomsayers (Some on wrongplanet and other nets but also out there among the medpros) who wail It's a Horrible Disability! That must be Cured! With Medication! And once she gets an official Dx, she can Go On Welfare! [EMAIL PROTECTED] 7) Workarounds for inattentive ADD include one that's really useful and really, really cheap. You get a hard-blacked flip-top pad down at Walgreens and the associated input device. Make a To Do list of whatever seems to be needed. Wild Ideas and For the Future on a back page. Obvious but let's not lose track on the front page. If need be, Have done Today. Sounds anal, I know, but there are times it;s really worthwhile to have a little list. Well, enough rambling and babbling. Hope this helps, Pat ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: Blog entry with interesting comment: P.S.
Oh, and P.S. there are workaround for a whole bunch of things. One thing I do is tell people up fromt - not a label which gives people the wrong idea or scares them (DO read Elizabeth Moon's Speed of Dark. That poor sucker needed a labelectomy above all!) but that, in context, I have a bit of trouble with whatever it is. For example, I'm sorry, I have trouble recognizing even people I know across the room, (takes off glasses and cleans them), would you mind letting me know you're here? or I'm sorry, certain frequencies go right through my head, it's the way my ears work. I saw the audiologist... Well, you get the idea. http://idiotgrrl.livejournal.com/ From: Horn, John [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: Killer Bs Discussion brin-l@mccmedia.com To: Killer Bs Discussion brin-l@mccmedia.com Subject: RE: Blog entry with interesting comment Date: Wed, 3 May 2006 14:52:34 -0500 On Behalf Of Julia Thompson An essay criticizing skeptics is torn apart here: http://www.autismstreet.org/weblog/?p=39 And the first commenter is James Randi. So I just had to share. A very interesting article. Even more interesting, for me, was the site itself. My daughter was just diagnosed with Asperger's Syndrome and ADHD (inattentive type). I know there are (or were) some on this list with AS or ADHD. Any recommended sites out there for a Mom and Dad struggling to put some order into all this chaos? - jmh ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Blog entry with interesting comment
PAT MATHEWS wrote: From: Horn, John [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Julia Thompson An essay criticizing skeptics is torn apart here: http://www.autismstreet.org/weblog/?p=39 And the first commenter is James Randi. So I just had to share. A very interesting article. Even more interesting, for me, was the site itself. My daughter was just diagnosed with Asperger's Syndrome and ADHD (inattentive type). I know there are (or were) some on this list with AS or ADHD. Any recommended sites out there for a Mom and Dad struggling to put some order into all this chaos? - jmh This is going to be a long post of the dump the load variety, so anyone not interested can either delete or skim, but here goes: 1) It's not the end of the world. I wouldn't advise her to become, say, an accountant (big mistake on my part!) but we're talking one of the two differences known to be associated with a creative upside. (the other being 'being mildly bipolar') It is very much not the end of the world; it is the beginning of figuring out what is going to work best for her in her life. 2) In my observation, the ADD books have a few coping tricks worth mentioning, but 90% of their focus is on the sort of hyperactive boys who are really, really good at grabbing opportunities and running with them; and they all push for medication so hard you'd think they were sponsored by Big Pharma. Get them from the library if you have to bother at all. I know relatively little about ADD. Go with what Pat says. :) 3) Again in my observation, Aspies come in roughly two flavors: the organized, single-focused, linear mind; and the absent-minded professor/free-spirited idea mill. Inattentive ADD goes with the latter. If you have any use for the Myer-Briggs at all, these map very roughly onto INTJ and INTP respectively. I mention this because books on the Myer-Briggs (a system which is totally non-judgmental and IMO the only system that does NOT make judgments) has a lot of good tips for life, love, acreers, and living with your... in this case, I'd say INTP --- which are quite useful even though they're designed for the 'normal' end of the spectrum. It's a reasonable generalization, although a few come up as S on the S/N divide, or as F on the F/T divide. I've never seen an aspie declare their MBT as Exxx, though, even the ones who seek more social interaction. :) Generally figuring out what strengths and weaknesses are, which MBTI does for a number of things, is a Good Thing. 4) Book: my all-time favorite is Liane Holliday Willey's Pretending to be Normal. And it's Dr. Willey; she has a PhD in, I think, some branch of linguistics. And is happily married with children. But there are others including some fictional characters I find quite likeable, even loveable. (Terry Pratchett's Leonard of Quirm, anyone?) OK, now I'm REALLY regretting I didn't buy it this morning. Next time I order from amazon. Next time. I may get to borrow it before then. Or I may go back to that bookstore sooner rather than later. 5) The very first thing I'd do in your shoes is find out her strengths and work from there. Also her obsessions if she has any. Don't let her dismiss them as Oh, that's EASY the way some people do, apparently thinking the only way to make a living is at something you have to work on. Wrong. Then mildly correct her weaknesses through *teaching.* A lot of stuff can be learned, I'm here to tell you. And don't dismiss *anything* that anyone makes a career in as a possible career. Oh, and work on figuring out what her specific learning style is -- if you go with that way working on things at home, at least, it will make things a lot easier on her. It will probably be harder on her anyway with the ADHD, even if her easiest method is applied; don't make it harder for her than it has to be. (There was a post very recently on the Processing in Parts blog about this, and someone with ADD contributed some good stuff in a comment.) 6) Beware doomsayers (Some on wrongplanet and other nets but also out there among the medpros) who wail It's a Horrible Disability! That must be Cured! With Medication! And once she gets an official Dx, she can Go On Welfare! [EMAIL PROTECTED] Anyone promising a cure should be shot. Any medication should be prescribed by a doctor with some expertise in the area. A pediatric neurologist would be good, if you're hooked up with one. I would not have my own kid getting brain-targeted meds from anyone but a neurologist. Oh, and http://crazymeds.org, very NSFW for language in spots (including the front page), has good info on meds. (A decent number of them have been used by the people running the site, and the site may be a better source of info on weird side effects than many.) 7) Workarounds for inattentive ADD include one that's really useful and really, really cheap. You get a hard-blacked flip-top pad down at Walgreens and the associated input device
Re: Blog entry with interesting comment:P.P.S.
Role models, female: (on TV) Bones Role models, female: (in SF) Dr. Susan Calvin in I, Robot (linear organized variety)\ More role models on TV: Adrian Monk; Detective Goram on Law Order CI; The designated kid on just about any CSI-type show; special attention to Dr. Reid on Criminal Minds and Bone's kid assistant on Bones. Role model in SF, male, that I'm madly in love with: in C.S. Friedman's THIS ALIEN SHORE, Dr Kio Masada, one of the organized kind again, quite reminiscent of Spock but more rounded out. A couple of very moving scenes when he's reminiscing about his late wife. And just for kicks giggles: Carol O'Connell's JUDAS CHILD is set in a boarding school for the extremely gifted unusual child; I swear to Ghod it's the same school Temple Grandin attended, only much improved updated. http://idiotgrrl.livejournal.com/ From: Julia Thompson [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: Killer Bs Discussion brin-l@mccmedia.com To: Killer Bs Discussion brin-l@mccmedia.com Subject: Re: Blog entry with interesting comment Date: Wed, 03 May 2006 17:37:50 -0500 PAT MATHEWS wrote: From: Horn, John [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Julia Thompson An essay criticizing skeptics is torn apart here: http://www.autismstreet.org/weblog/?p=39 And the first commenter is James Randi. So I just had to share. A very interesting article. Even more interesting, for me, was the site itself. My daughter was just diagnosed with Asperger's Syndrome and ADHD (inattentive type). I know there are (or were) some on this list with AS or ADHD. Any recommended sites out there for a Mom and Dad struggling to put some order into all this chaos? - jmh This is going to be a long post of the dump the load variety, so anyone not interested can either delete or skim, but here goes: 1) It's not the end of the world. I wouldn't advise her to become, say, an accountant (big mistake on my part!) but we're talking one of the two differences known to be associated with a creative upside. (the other being 'being mildly bipolar') It is very much not the end of the world; it is the beginning of figuring out what is going to work best for her in her life. 2) In my observation, the ADD books have a few coping tricks worth mentioning, but 90% of their focus is on the sort of hyperactive boys who are really, really good at grabbing opportunities and running with them; and they all push for medication so hard you'd think they were sponsored by Big Pharma. Get them from the library if you have to bother at all. I know relatively little about ADD. Go with what Pat says. :) 3) Again in my observation, Aspies come in roughly two flavors: the organized, single-focused, linear mind; and the absent-minded professor/free-spirited idea mill. Inattentive ADD goes with the latter. If you have any use for the Myer-Briggs at all, these map very roughly onto INTJ and INTP respectively. I mention this because books on the Myer-Briggs (a system which is totally non-judgmental and IMO the only system that does NOT make judgments) has a lot of good tips for life, love, acreers, and living with your... in this case, I'd say INTP --- which are quite useful even though they're designed for the 'normal' end of the spectrum. It's a reasonable generalization, although a few come up as S on the S/N divide, or as F on the F/T divide. I've never seen an aspie declare their MBT as Exxx, though, even the ones who seek more social interaction. :) Generally figuring out what strengths and weaknesses are, which MBTI does for a number of things, is a Good Thing. 4) Book: my all-time favorite is Liane Holliday Willey's Pretending to be Normal. And it's Dr. Willey; she has a PhD in, I think, some branch of linguistics. And is happily married with children. But there are others including some fictional characters I find quite likeable, even loveable. (Terry Pratchett's Leonard of Quirm, anyone?) OK, now I'm REALLY regretting I didn't buy it this morning. Next time I order from amazon. Next time. I may get to borrow it before then. Or I may go back to that bookstore sooner rather than later. 5) The very first thing I'd do in your shoes is find out her strengths and work from there. Also her obsessions if she has any. Don't let her dismiss them as Oh, that's EASY the way some people do, apparently thinking the only way to make a living is at something you have to work on. Wrong. Then mildly correct her weaknesses through *teaching.* A lot of stuff can be learned, I'm here to tell you. And don't dismiss *anything* that anyone makes a career in as a possible career. Oh, and work on figuring out what her specific learning style is -- if you go with that way working on things at home, at least, it will make things a lot easier on her. It will probably be harder on her anyway with the ADHD, even if her easiest method is applied; don't make it harder for her than it has to be. (There was a post very recently
Re: Blog entry with interesting comment
On May 3, 2006, at 12:52 PM, Horn, John wrote: A very interesting article. Even more interesting, for me, was the site itself. My daughter was just diagnosed with Asperger's Syndrome and ADHD (inattentive type). I know there are (or were) some on this list with AS or ADHD. Any recommended sites out there for a Mom and Dad struggling to put some order into all this chaos? I found the ideas of Thom Hartmann very helpful: http://www.thomhartmann.com/home-add.shtml Hartmann is the creator of the Hunter/Farmer metaphor that describes those of us with various shades of ADHD as exhibiting the characteristics of hunters (global [as opposed to narrow] attention, preference for immediate rewards and short-term highly intense efforts, periods of hyperfocus, and so forth), while the majority of society exhibits the characteristics of farmers. He describes it better than I... Hartmann is also apparently a liberal radio commentator. When I was really suffering from the effects of my ADHD (which may have been exacerbated by my brain tumor), I enjoyed the following site, which I found while researching the relationship between ADHD and Myers-Briggs types. NOTICE: This site apparently came under attack from some sort of spyware, so they installed a javascript that almost immediately redirects you to takebacktheweb.com. It's damned annoying, but on my Mac, I can prevent the redirect by immediately and repeatedly pressing the escape key once the page has loaded: http://borntoexplore.org/ Sincerely, Dave Oh look! An Owl! Land ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Blog entry with interesting comment
On May 3, 2006, at 5:26 PM, Dave Land wrote: I found the ideas of Thom Hartmann very helpful: http://www.thomhartmann.com/home-add.shtml http://borntoexplore.org/ On the latter site is a page (not infected with the redirect script) that brings Hartmann's ideas with some others in a very succinct way: http://www.borntoexplore.org/hunter.htm Good stuff, Dave ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Blog entry with interesting comment
Pat Julia 3) Again in my observation, Aspies come in roughly two flavors: the organized, single-focused, linear mind; and the absent-minded professor/free-spirited idea mill. Inattentive ADD goes with the latter. If you have any use for the Myer-Briggs at all, these map very roughly onto INTJ and INTP respectively. I mention this because books on the Myer-Briggs (a system which is totally non-judgmental and IMO the only system that does NOT make judgments) has a lot of good tips for life, love, acreers, and living with your... in this case, I'd say INTP --- which are quite useful even though they're designed for the 'normal' end of the spectrum. Oh, and work on figuring out what her specific learning style is -- if you go with that way working on things at home, at least, it will make things a lot easier on her. It will probably be harder on her anyway with the ADHD, even if her easiest method is applied; don't make it harder for her than it has to be. (There was a post very recently on the Processing in Parts blog about this, and someone with ADD contributed some good stuff in a comment.) Combining both of the above, you may want to try Now, Discover Your Strengths: How to Develop Your Talents and Those of the People You Manage Marcus Buckingham, Donald O. Clifton Based on thousands of leaders from multiple backgrounds, this inventory looks at what your top 5 strengths out of 35 distilled categories. As opposed to Myers-Briggs that implies the opposite of your strengths is your weakness, this profile doesn't imply weaknesses- only things that impede what you want to do are even considered near weaknesses that need to be addressed only if they get in your way. Really neat- there is another earlier book that talks about how an individual Soars with strengths. There is a great beginning that relates strengths to kids in school, a bit unconventional from some of the schooling ideas that I grew up with, but I have to say it makes sense. I haven't looked in a while, but I recall finding some online references for 4MAT learning styles. Some schools are subcontracting special ed programs to Sylvan Learning so it might be worth investigating. Dee- handing in a final, then 2 weeks to catch up on the rest of life ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Blog entry with interesting comment
On 5/3/06, Horn, John [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Syndrome and ADHD (inattentive type). I know there are (or were) some on this list with AS or ADHD. Any recommended sites out there for a Mom and Dad struggling to put some order into all this chaos? There are people here with ADHD... what were we talking about? Oh, yes. Some books... You Mean I'm not Lazy, Stupid or Crazy, anything by Thom Hartmann, ADD and Creativity by Weiss, Change Your Brain, Change Your Life, by Amen. Look, an owl! Nick -- Nick Arnett [EMAIL PROTECTED] Messages: 408-904-7198 ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Blog entry with interesting comment
On 5/3/06, Dave Land [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hartmann is also apparently a liberal radio commentator. And a former CompuServe sysop, back in the late '80s when I also was. Nick -- Nick Arnett [EMAIL PROTECTED] Messages: 408-904-7198 ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
More interesting articles . . .
Physicists Create a 'Perfect' Way to Study the Big Bang http://www.epsrc.ac.uk/Content/PressReleases/PhysicistsCreateAPerfectWayToStudyTheBigBang.htm Ice ages linked to galactic position Study finds Earth may be cooled by movement through Milky Way's stellar clouds http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2005/07/25/MNGCIDSL4R1.DTL Cats' Sweet Tooth Long Gone http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/07/24/AR2005072401107.html --Ronn! :) I always knew that I would see the first man on the Moon. I never dreamed that I would see the last. --Dr. Jerry Pournelle ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Interesting articles . . .
http://www.cnn.com/2005/TECH/space/07/21/space.catastrophe.reut/index.html http://www.cnn.com/2005/TECH/space/07/20/eros/index.html http://www.cnn.com/2005/TECH/space/07/18/obrien.nasa.ap/index.html --Ronn! :) I always knew that I would see the first man on the Moon. I never dreamed that I would see the last. --Dr. Jerry Pournelle ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
interesting website
http://www.mugshots.org/ Mugshots, other photos, biographies and arrest details for various famous people who have been arrested at some point in their lives. The Bill Gates one is notable for his smiling in the mug shot Julia ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Interesting times . . .
http://www.nbc13.com/news/3644270/detail.html They've called off the search for the night after 7 hours . . . Ronald W. (Ronn!) Blankenship 1329 McCoy Street ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Interesting times . . .
On Wed, 11 Aug 2004 22:34:56 -0500, Ronn!Blankenship [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: http://www.nbc13.com/news/3644270/detail.html They've called off the search for the night after 7 hours . . . Ronald W. (Ronn!) Blankenship 1329 McCoy Street Cheers. ( http://maps.yahoo.com/maps_result?ed=N9ELkOp_0TriBYxEny2KpJFUKMQfL785zDmkJw--csz=Birmingham%2C+ALcountry=usnew=1name=qty= ) Julia ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
