[cctalk] Re: Age of Tape Formats?
That reel of 3 onch tape is heavy... Ihave a reel and the 30 something track tape headgee I could rig a rrader ed# Sent from AOL on Android On Thu, Mar 9, 2023 at 11:16 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: I believe that this photo shows a Datamatic 1000 tape next to a standard1/2" drive. https://i.pinimg.com/564x/00/3e/7d/003e7d4e3a2478db0b9a7c94f2033252.jpg --Chuck
[cctalk] Re: Age of Tape Formats?
On 3/10/23 00:16, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: I believe that this photo shows a Datamatic 1000 tape next to a standard 1/2" drive. https://i.pinimg.com/564x/00/3e/7d/003e7d4e3a2478db0b9a7c94f2033252.jpg --Chuck Hub size looks small on the 1/2" for later style tapes. 2" tape? I wonder if that was linear? Had to have impressive motors. Our Ampex 1/2" 7 track data tapes which ran 200ips to get any sort of bandwidth had huge motors on it. One of the 3/4ips to 200ips machines with 10 push buttons, similar to the similar chart recorders with up to that speed. FWIW, OT, I visited a small TV production facility in Springfield Mo (got some excess equipment), and they had the Betacam, 3/4" Umatic, and a 1" machine for editing. Most has gone to digital storage. They had a mirrored 22tb server, and used Mac and the like for production editing. Most use was for a 3 camera studio, but could mostly do talking head direct to digital. Anyway never saw either a data or video 2" in person. thanks Jim
[cctalk] Re: IBM PS/2 Model 80 (8580-071) restoration
Snip On Mar 9, 2023, at 10:57 PM, John Maxwell via cctalk wrote: >>> On 3/9/23 10:16 AM, John Maxwell wrote: >>> Nowhere do I see any mention of a Model 80 Reference Disk. If you >>> don't have one of these, you will not be able to configure the machine. >> > > Is there a repository to where I can upload diskette images? What format is > in widespread use these days? I use DiskImage (Ver5) and Dave Dunfield's > ImageDisk (Ver1.17) - both work well. I seem to recall that DiskImage is a > commercial product and ImageDisk is still available for free. Some may disagree , but i upload stuff like this to the Internet Archive. > >>> ADFs were text files with descriptions of hardware addresses and the >>> like. > >> That sounds like what I remember. > >>> Not sure of what you mean by 'Rifas' in the last question. Probably an >>> acronym or other abbreviation of something I may know about, but >>> nothing comes to my foggy brain presently. > >> My understanding is that RIFA is a brand of capacitor which had a model like >> which is notorious for failing after time and they seemed to be common in >> the '90s. > > Not sure that IBM would use cheap *anything* in their equipment. > > [snip] > >> *nod* That's what I was referring to as sticktion. > > A word of warning, the "inertial rotation" procedure was great for smaller > drives, but you may break your arm applying this to an ESDI :-) > >> I don't know the state of the bearings. Is there anything that I can or >> should do for them? > > Aside from dismantling the drive, not really. Just cross your fingers and > pray. Usually not a problem. I have an ST225 which had been powered off for > two decades and it came up fine in my DEC Rainbow! > >>> The battery used is one of the old 6V photoflash types (cannot recall >>> the model, unfortunately). I have a few of them left in my collection >>> - just ran into them in a box (with 2 or 3 left) a few months ago. >>> Each still had over 6v (no load) at the terminals. No idea how long >>> they would last in application under load, though, even though the >>> Model >>> 80 didn't use too much current to hold things in config memory. > >> ACK > >> My assumption is that the Model 80 has been powered off for years, if not a >> decade or more. It's on the older end of a five computers I picked up from >> someone >who wanted them hauled away. I'm not holding my breath that they >> powered the PS/2 on anytime in the last decade. ;-) > > It is my belief that these batteries should still be available from > somewhere. If I think of it when I get home, I'll dig out the box and relay > the model number. Provided that the box is still where I remember. > >>> Just my $0.02 (not even sure it was worth that much). Good luck with >>> your 80. > >> Thank you. You're sharing things that seem familiar. Which is appreciated >> because it means that my memory isn't that far out of calibration or bit rot. >
[cctalk] Re: Why the Floppy Disk Just Won't Die
Thats exactly the solution. Just keep a few floppies around so that you can transfer a saved image back to floppy to be read by the machine that needs it. Personally, there was so much media manufactured that I think the machines that read the media will fail long before we run out of media. Wayne > On Mar 9, 2023, at 10:57 PM, Christopher Zach via cctalk > wrote: > > Interesting article but when goteks are 30 a pop on ebay and work on > something as wonky as a professional 350, I think it's time to let 5.25 > floppies go > > I'll get a teac but mainly to convert all my pdp11 floppies to images. > > Cz > >> On March 9, 2023 7:00:39 PM EST, Jim Brain via cctalk >> wrote: >> https://www.wired.com/story/why-the-floppy-disk-just-wont-die/ >> >> Take what you want from the article, but I thought the end paragraph, noting >> that Tom Persky of floppydisk.com is 73 and is only planning to handle >> things for 5 more years. After that, he thinks the company will not >> transfer to anyone. >> >> Interesting thoughts there. >> >> Jim >> >> -- >> Jim Brain >> br...@jbrain.com >> www.jbrain.com >>
[cctalk] Re: Why the Floppy Disk Just Won't Die
Interesting article but when goteks are 30 a pop on ebay and work on something as wonky as a professional 350, I think it's time to let 5.25 floppies go I'll get a teac but mainly to convert all my pdp11 floppies to images. Cz On March 9, 2023 7:00:39 PM EST, Jim Brain via cctalk wrote: >https://www.wired.com/story/why-the-floppy-disk-just-wont-die/ > >Take what you want from the article, but I thought the end paragraph, noting >that Tom Persky of floppydisk.com is 73 and is only planning to handle things >for 5 more years. After that, he thinks the company will not transfer to >anyone. > >Interesting thoughts there. > >Jim > >-- >Jim Brain >br...@jbrain.com >www.jbrain.com >
[cctalk] Why the Floppy Disk Just Won't Die
https://www.wired.com/story/why-the-floppy-disk-just-wont-die/ Take what you want from the article, but I thought the end paragraph, noting that Tom Persky of floppydisk.com is 73 and is only planning to handle things for 5 more years. After that, he thinks the company will not transfer to anyone. Interesting thoughts there. Jim -- RETRO Innovations, Contemporary Gear for Classic Systems www.go4retro.com store.go4retro.com
[cctalk] Re: IBM PS/2 Model 80 (8580-071) restoration
>On 3/9/23 10:16 AM, John Maxwell wrote: >> Nowhere do I see any mention of a Model 80 Reference Disk. If you >> don't have one of these, you will not be able to configure the machine. >Yep. I'm well aware. This is not my 1st PS/2 rodeo. I actually cut my teeth >on used PS/2s in the mid-90s. >> I _should_ have a copy of one lying around (or already >>imaged/archived) >> - the main problem is finding the ADF (Adaptor Description Files) for >> the added features/cards. >The usual suspects in the comp.sys.ibm.ps2.hardware newsgroup have already >provided links to some ADF files for what they assume the boards likely are >based >on my descriptions. >Aside: I thought that ADF was short for Auto Definition File. But I can see >how Adapter works too. >> My copy of the Reference Disk would not likely have any ADFs from >> obscure cards, but should have the common files. >Based on my descriptions, the presumption is that I've got a standard (for the >model 80) ESDI controller, an 8514/A video card, and an IBM 386 Memory >Expansion >Adapter. I don't consider those to be too exotic. [snip] >I'm always interested in growing my ADF collection. :-) Is there a repository to where I can upload diskette images? What format is in widespread use these days? I use DiskImage (Ver5) and Dave Dunfield's ImageDisk (Ver1.17) - both work well. I seem to recall that DiskImage is a commercial product and ImageDisk is still available for free. >> ADFs were text files with descriptions of hardware addresses and the >> like. >That sounds like what I remember. >> Not sure of what you mean by 'Rifas' in the last question. Probably an >> acronym or other abbreviation of something I may know about, but >> nothing comes to my foggy brain presently. >My understanding is that RIFA is a brand of capacitor which had a model like >which is notorious for failing after time and they seemed to be common in the >'90s. Not sure that IBM would use cheap *anything* in their equipment. [snip] >*nod* That's what I was referring to as sticktion. A word of warning, the "inertial rotation" procedure was great for smaller drives, but you may break your arm applying this to an ESDI :-) >I don't know the state of the bearings. Is there anything that I can or >should do for them? Aside from dismantling the drive, not really. Just cross your fingers and pray. Usually not a problem. I have an ST225 which had been powered off for two decades and it came up fine in my DEC Rainbow! >> The battery used is one of the old 6V photoflash types (cannot recall >> the model, unfortunately). I have a few of them left in my collection >> - just ran into them in a box (with 2 or 3 left) a few months ago. >> Each still had over 6v (no load) at the terminals. No idea how long >> they would last in application under load, though, even though the >> Model >> 80 didn't use too much current to hold things in config memory. >ACK >My assumption is that the Model 80 has been powered off for years, if not a >decade or more. It's on the older end of a five computers I picked up from >someone >who wanted them hauled away. I'm not holding my breath that they >powered the PS/2 on anytime in the last decade. ;-) It is my belief that these batteries should still be available from somewhere. If I think of it when I get home, I'll dig out the box and relay the model number. Provided that the box is still where I remember. >> Just my $0.02 (not even sure it was worth that much). Good luck with >> your 80. >Thank you. You're sharing things that seem familiar. Which is appreciated >because it means that my memory isn't that far out of calibration or bit rot.
[cctalk] FD-55 360kB HLS spares for sale?
The USB FDC controller ICs finally arrived and I am working to clear the project desk to build a dev board. As part of testing, I'm wondering if anyone has any working FD55B drives for sale with the HLS? I am the market for 1-2 more, and I thought it'd be nice to get one for this project instead of trying to liberate one of my drives from a working machine. I see the links on eBay (a few untested HLS variants and a working non HLS one available), but would prefer a working HLS B. Jim -- Jim Brain br...@jbrain.com www.jbrain.com
[cctalk] Re: mainframe vs mini
On 3/9/23 22:39, Lars Brinkhoff via cctalk wrote: > Consider that a minicomputer is larger than microcomputer. Consider the terms (now rarely seen): "midicomputer" and "superminicomputer" --Chuck
[cctalk] Re: mainframe vs mini
Steve Lewis wrote: > I always considered a mainframe to basically be a "fully decked out" > minicomputer. You may find people will disagree with that. I'm not sure what mainframe means either, but I'm asking around. Pysical size, I/O capacity, CPU offload to front ends, and users served seem to factor into it. > Actually, to answer my own question: if "main frame" refers to the actual > framing... well the PDP-1, PDP-10, PDP-10 were minicomputers and still > required a lot of metal "framing" to set up. So, can't they be considered > mainframes? I believe the term minicomputer was first applied to the PDP-8. It was kind of retroactively applied going back to the PDP-1. Whether the PDP-10 is a mini is sometimes hotly debated. IBM people say no, DEC peole say yes. > another notion is that mainframes are "multi-user" -- most early > microcomputers were not multi-user, as they just barely supported the needs > of one user; I'm not sure if the very first minicomputers were > multi-user? Kind of yes, but recally early computers were often operated in batch mode. Minis would typically do one task, or handle a few users. > The term minicomputer has always been awkward to me -- "mini" in my > head just means something smaller than me, which most minicomputers > aren't Consider that a minicomputer is larger than microcomputer. > But to say "mainframe" when showing a minicomputer I don't think that does a service to anyone.
[cctalk] Re: mainframe vs mini
Fred Cisin wrote: > So, what defines a "supercomputer"? FLOPS
[cctalk] Re: Age of Tape Formats?
I believe that this photo shows a Datamatic 1000 tape next to a standard 1/2" drive. https://i.pinimg.com/564x/00/3e/7d/003e7d4e3a2478db0b9a7c94f2033252.jpg --Chuck
[cctalk] Re: Why the Floppy Disk Just Won't Die
On 3/9/2023 10:34 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: I doubt that there is any market segment with deep pockets, with a "need" other than nostalgia. I've actually considered trying to research finding equipment to manufacture such media, and/or recreating it. Everyone needs another hobby, right? That said, in my day job, I've seen IT folks at times be their worst enemy in focusing so much energy in keeping outdated items running, only to discover a lack of support to upgrade/replace said items because they've removed the friction of staying with the outdated device/system. Part of me sees the same issue here. It'd be expensive but not insurmountable to recreate lots of media options, and even more realistic if some of the old manufacturing equipment is still mothballed and not scrapped. But, putting new floppy disk media into the market, even at inflated prices, would remove the friction IT resources have depended on to force governments and businesses to at least migrate to solid state replacements, if not fully upgraded systems. Obviously, the cost (and the fact that finding existing equipment to un-mothball is the much more realistic an option to pursue rather than trying to fabricate new equipment) is a significant roadblock, but I also hesitate for the above reason. It's almost like a few more years need to pass, to force the remaining holdouts to realize floppydisk.com and eBay and the nature of rust glued onto mylar will not exist much longer at quality levels that companies can risk. Then, I'm hoping someone with deeper pockets than I starts production :-) Jim -- Jim Brain br...@jbrain.com www.jbrain.com
[cctalk] Re: mainframe vs mini
We still have ice on the inside of the windows up here Nice of you guys to remember this history. Some of the STAR designers and team are still around and kicking. Just had lunch with four of them last Friday. I learned too that as they migrated the design from STAR to 205 to ETA10, some of that “magic” in the logic design became black magic as they got stuff working, like stream instructions, but didn’t know how or why :-) Simulation said it shouldn’t work but reality said it did… cje -- Chris Elmquist > On Mar 9, 2023, at 10:11 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk > wrote: > > As to what a "station" looked like: > > https://i.pinimg.com/originals/15/6d/fa/156dfa0a3b573b6ff9ca074d62fb19a9.jpg > > Those things with CRT terminals on them are stations--they handle the > various I/O tasks. Basically, 16 bit minicomputers. > > The photo might be the installation at CDC ADL, from the low ceiling and > cramped space. During the OPEC oil embargo, I made myself comfortable > with a pillow borrowed from my room at the Ramada and a good book > nestled between the SBUs. It was probably the warmest place for miles. > The offices at ARHOPS, by contrast, had ice on the inside of the > windows... > > Back then, in Sunnyvale, you had three choices if you were doing OS > development. You could turn in your build materials to the STAR-1Bs at > SVLOPS and hope that an all-night (the 1B ran at 1/100 the speed of the > 100) session didn't end in a system crash. You could finagle some CE > time at Lawrence Livermore, which was far from a sure thing (one of the > reasons for having a DOE "Q" clearance). Or you could hop the "noon > balloon" out of San Jose to the Twin Cities and use the STAR at ADL. If > it was wintertime, my department in Sunnyvale had a "community parka" > for those unfortunates visiting the land of ice sports. > > --Chuck
[cctalk] Re: Why the Floppy Disk Just Won't Die
On 3/9/23 18:40, Sellam Abraham via cctalk wrote: I wonder how much challenge would be involved in making artisan batches of 5.25" or 8" floppy disks using cobbled-together or homemade equipment? On Thu, 9 Mar 2023, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: Many folks have turned to emulators, abandoning the spinning rust altogether. The mylar substrate would probably be the easiest. I don't know if anyone's still making audio tape, but the coating equipment might be the same. I don't know how to find the proper stuff for the goo, however. Certainly it's doable, but I wonder about the market... I doubt that there is any market segment with deep pockets, with a "need" other than nostalgia.
[cctalk] Re: Why the Floppy Disk Just Won't Die
On Thu, Mar 9, 2023 at 7:57 PM Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > On Thu, 9 Mar 2023, Sellam Abraham via cctalk wrote: > > Jeri Ellsworth made integrated circuits in her garage. > > I wonder how much challenge would be involved in making artisan batches > of > > 5.25" or 8" floppy disks using cobbled-together or homemade equipment? > > Is there ANYTHING besides floppy disks that uses large areas/sheets of > magnetic material? > > Is there ANYTHING besides floppy disks that uses a liquid magnetic media > that could be used for the coating, and might even be available, or would > that also need to be bespoke manufactured? > > How precisely does the coating need to be put down? > > It certainly doesn't seem like a reasonable, PRACTICAL project. But we > tend not to BE reasonable and practical. > -- > Grumpy Ol' Fred ci...@xenosoft.com Reasonable? Are you serious? We run decades, even half century old computing machines in our garages for fun. I would've suggested the manufacturers of debit/credit cards as a source for the magnetic material but that seems to be giving way to the chips. But I'll be willing to bet a supplier could be found on Ali Baba for some sort of magnetic thin film material. It would be cheating, but floppy disks won't be re-invented in a day. Ultimately, it would be fun to actually mix up the magnetic paste and apply it to a flexible mylar disc with a centrifuge. It would definitely be an adventure. And a very unreasonable one at that. Sellam
[cctalk] Re: Why the Floppy Disk Just Won't Die
On 3/9/23 18:40, Sellam Abraham via cctalk wrote: > I wonder how much challenge would be involved in making artisan batches of > 5.25" or 8" floppy disks using cobbled-together or homemade equipment? Many folks have turned to emulators, abandoning the spinning rust altogether. The mylar substrate would probably be the easiest. I don't know if anyone's still making audio tape, but the coating equipment might be the same. I don't know how to find the proper stuff for the goo, however. Certainly it's doable, but I wonder about the market... --Chuck
[cctalk] Re: Why the Floppy Disk Just Won't Die
On Thu, 9 Mar 2023, Sellam Abraham via cctalk wrote:
Jeri Ellsworth made integrated circuits in her garage.
I wonder how much challenge would be involved in making artisan batches of
5.25" or 8" floppy disks using cobbled-together or homemade equipment?
In "Secret Life of Machines", season 2, episode 6, they make crude audio
tape from powdered rust and sticky tape ("Scotch tape" for those
unconcerned about trademarks)
. . . would have to be a lot less crude than that
[cctalk] Re: mainframe vs mini
As to what a "station" looked like: https://i.pinimg.com/originals/15/6d/fa/156dfa0a3b573b6ff9ca074d62fb19a9.jpg Those things with CRT terminals on them are stations--they handle the various I/O tasks. Basically, 16 bit minicomputers. The photo might be the installation at CDC ADL, from the low ceiling and cramped space. During the OPEC oil embargo, I made myself comfortable with a pillow borrowed from my room at the Ramada and a good book nestled between the SBUs. It was probably the warmest place for miles. The offices at ARHOPS, by contrast, had ice on the inside of the windows... Back then, in Sunnyvale, you had three choices if you were doing OS development. You could turn in your build materials to the STAR-1Bs at SVLOPS and hope that an all-night (the 1B ran at 1/100 the speed of the 100) session didn't end in a system crash. You could finagle some CE time at Lawrence Livermore, which was far from a sure thing (one of the reasons for having a DOE "Q" clearance). Or you could hop the "noon balloon" out of San Jose to the Twin Cities and use the STAR at ADL. If it was wintertime, my department in Sunnyvale had a "community parka" for those unfortunates visiting the land of ice sports. --Chuck
[cctalk] Re: mainframe vs mini
Thanks! Steve On 3/9/23 7:54 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: On 3/9/23 18:24, steve shumaker via cctalk wrote: for the non mainframe folks here, what does SBU/SCU/SDU mean? SBU-station buffer unit, but why not read about it in a contemporary article by Chuck Purcell? https://dl.acm.org/doi/pdf/10.1145/1500175.1500257 --Chuck
[cctalk] Re: Why the Floppy Disk Just Won't Die
On Thu, 9 Mar 2023, Sellam Abraham via cctalk wrote: Jeri Ellsworth made integrated circuits in her garage. I wonder how much challenge would be involved in making artisan batches of 5.25" or 8" floppy disks using cobbled-together or homemade equipment? Is there ANYTHING besides floppy disks that uses large areas/sheets of magnetic material? Is there ANYTHING besides floppy disks that uses a liquid magnetic media that could be used for the coating, and might even be available, or would that also need to be bespoke manufactured? How precisely does the coating need to be put down? It certainly doesn't seem like a reasonable, PRACTICAL project. But we tend not to BE reasonable and practical. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred ci...@xenosoft.com
[cctalk] Re: mainframe vs mini
On 3/9/23 18:24, steve shumaker via cctalk wrote: > for the non mainframe folks here, what does SBU/SCU/SDU mean? SBU-station buffer unit, but why not read about it in a contemporary article by Chuck Purcell? https://dl.acm.org/doi/pdf/10.1145/1500175.1500257 --Chuck
[cctalk] Re: mainframe vs mini
On 3/9/23 17:56, Paul Koning wrote: > That picture serves to remind us of the packaging and cooling genius that > went into the CDC 6000 series machines, which could fairly be called the > first supercomputers. Logic like that and more, but in a much smaller > package so it can run faster. I suppose it didn't hurd that timing margins > were shrunk down to microscopic values (and, if you try to analyze the > design, sometimes they become negative, but somehow the machine worked > anyway). They added a bunch of amazing magic to the core memory as well. > The STAR was Jim Thornton's brainchild, so he was quite familiar with the 6000 and 7000 series. I believe that the STAR used 7000 SCM core. Most of the pipeline units were 128 bits wide; caore bus width was 512+SECDED. A fair amount of effort was put into finding something that could feed the "STAR channel" at full bandwidth; hence, the 100K RPM STAR drum and the SCROLL. Neither of which made it out of the lab. It was a system of extremes. Apparently, in the beginning, Fairchild had huge problems producing the chips for the register file (256x64 bits). Neil Lincoln took over the project after Thornton got interested in other things, after the departure of Seymour. I remember seeing an excavator digging a trench around the employee parking lot at ARHOPS for some high-speed network experiments of T's. Not that Neil was a slouch in that department. Witness the liquid nitrogen-cooled ETA-10 super. This when people were waxing lyrical about Seymour's Fluorinert "Bubbles". Heady days back then--you almost needed a program to keep track of the various projects. --Chuck
[cctalk] Re: Why the Floppy Disk Just Won't Die
On Thu, Mar 9, 2023 at 4:34 PM Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > On 3/9/23 16:00, Jim Brain via cctalk wrote: > > https://www.wired.com/story/why-the-floppy-disk-just-wont-die/ > > > > Take what you want from the article, but I thought the end paragraph, > > noting that Tom Persky of floppydisk.com is 73 and is only planning to > > handle things for 5 more years. After that, he thinks the company will > > not transfer to anyone. > > I recall reading a similar article about him. I can understand--nobody > manufactures the things today, after all, not to mention the equipment > for handling them. > > I'm sure that some will survive--witness paper tape. In the meantime, > the conversion business is still good. > > --Chuck > Jeri Ellsworth made integrated circuits in her garage. I wonder how much challenge would be involved in making artisan batches of 5.25" or 8" floppy disks using cobbled-together or homemade equipment? Sellam
[cctalk] Re: mainframe vs mini
for the non mainframe folks here, what does SBU/SCU/SDU mean? Steve On 3/9/23 5:45 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: On 3/9/23 17:33, Jon Elson via cctalk wrote: On 3/9/23 15:51, Steve Lewis via cctalk wrote: Well, the IBM 709x was housed in 11 or more cabinets that were larger than the largest home refrigerator. These cabinets were interconnected by cables containing 100 coax cables and had one-foot square connectors with 200 pins. The 7094 had 55,000 transistors on 11,000 circuit cards. This was a TRULY huge computer system. The 7030 STRETCH was built with similar technology, but way more of those cabinets. https://d3i71xaburhd42.cloudfront.net/d7fd7af8c26e659d712bf029d2287c919847e498/2-Figure2-1.png And that's not counting the stations or SBUs. 1970s. --Chuck
[cctalk] Re: mainframe vs mini
On Thu, 9 Mar 2023, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: That picture serves to remind us of the packaging and cooling genius that went into the CDC 6000 series machines, which could fairly be called the first supercomputers. Logic like that and more, but in a much smaller package so it can run faster. I suppose it didn't hurd that timing margins were shrunk down to microscopic values (and, if you try to analyze the design, sometimes they become negative, but somehow the machine worked anyway). They added a bunch of amazing magic to the core memory as well. So, what defines a "supercomputer"? Microcomputer Minicomputer mainframe supercomputer "lose a screw" / "lose screwdriver" /"lose scope" / "lose technician" -- Grumpy Ol' Fred ci...@xenosoft.com
[cctalk] Re: mainframe vs mini
> On Mar 9, 2023, at 8:45 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk > wrote: > > On 3/9/23 17:33, Jon Elson via cctalk wrote: >> On 3/9/23 15:51, Steve Lewis via cctalk wrote: > >> Well, the IBM 709x was housed in 11 or more cabinets that were larger >> than the largest home refrigerator. These cabinets were interconnected >> by cables containing 100 coax cables and had one-foot square connectors >> with 200 pins. The 7094 had 55,000 transistors on 11,000 circuit >> cards. This was a TRULY huge computer system. The 7030 STRETCH was >> built with similar technology, but way more of those cabinets. > > https://d3i71xaburhd42.cloudfront.net/d7fd7af8c26e659d712bf029d2287c919847e498/2-Figure2-1.png > > And that's not counting the stations or SBUs. 1970s. > > --Chuck That picture serves to remind us of the packaging and cooling genius that went into the CDC 6000 series machines, which could fairly be called the first supercomputers. Logic like that and more, but in a much smaller package so it can run faster. I suppose it didn't hurd that timing margins were shrunk down to microscopic values (and, if you try to analyze the design, sometimes they become negative, but somehow the machine worked anyway). They added a bunch of amazing magic to the core memory as well. paul
[cctalk] Re: mainframe vs mini
On 3/9/23 17:33, Jon Elson via cctalk wrote: > On 3/9/23 15:51, Steve Lewis via cctalk wrote: > Well, the IBM 709x was housed in 11 or more cabinets that were larger > than the largest home refrigerator. These cabinets were interconnected > by cables containing 100 coax cables and had one-foot square connectors > with 200 pins. The 7094 had 55,000 transistors on 11,000 circuit > cards. This was a TRULY huge computer system. The 7030 STRETCH was > built with similar technology, but way more of those cabinets. https://d3i71xaburhd42.cloudfront.net/d7fd7af8c26e659d712bf029d2287c919847e498/2-Figure2-1.png And that's not counting the stations or SBUs. 1970s. --Chuck
[cctalk] Re: mainframe vs mini
On 3/9/23 15:51, Steve Lewis via cctalk wrote: Not to open a huge can of worms but... I always considered a mainframe to basically be a "fully decked out" minicomputer. Well, the IBM 709x was housed in 11 or more cabinets that were larger than the largest home refrigerator. These cabinets were interconnected by cables containing 100 coax cables and had one-foot square connectors with 200 pins. The 7094 had 55,000 transistors on 11,000 circuit cards. This was a TRULY huge computer system. The 7030 STRETCH was built with similar technology, but way more of those cabinets. Jon
[cctalk] Re: Why the Floppy Disk Just Won't Die
On 3/9/23 16:00, Jim Brain via cctalk wrote: > https://www.wired.com/story/why-the-floppy-disk-just-wont-die/ > > Take what you want from the article, but I thought the end paragraph, > noting that Tom Persky of floppydisk.com is 73 and is only planning to > handle things for 5 more years. After that, he thinks the company will > not transfer to anyone. I recall reading a similar article about him. I can understand--nobody manufactures the things today, after all, not to mention the equipment for handling them. I'm sure that some will survive--witness paper tape. In the meantime, the conversion business is still good. --Chuck
[cctalk] Why the Floppy Disk Just Won't Die
https://www.wired.com/story/why-the-floppy-disk-just-wont-die/ Take what you want from the article, but I thought the end paragraph, noting that Tom Persky of floppydisk.com is 73 and is only planning to handle things for 5 more years. After that, he thinks the company will not transfer to anyone. Interesting thoughts there. Jim -- Jim Brain br...@jbrain.com www.jbrain.com
[cctalk] Re: on the origin of home computers
I just ordered your book from Amazon. I am looking forward to reading it. Regards, Tarek Hoteit > On Mar 9, 2023, at 2:51 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk > wrote: > > On Mar 9, 2023, at 5:20 PM, Murray McCullough via cctalk > wrote: >>> A lot has been written about the origins of the microcomputer. I wrote a >>> book on the topic. Many thanks for mentioning Canada. Whether one is >>> playing games or doing something else micro-computing is usually associated >>> with a microprocessor as CPU. Anything earlier is a minicomputer or >>> something else. > > On Thu, 9 Mar 2023, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: >> Sure, although that can get fuzzy. A 4004 microcomputer needs multiple >> chips. Conversely, I don't think DEC would call an 11/83 a microcomputer >> even though it uses a single chip (J-11) CPU. Ditto the various small VAXen. > > ALL attempts at dividing lines will have exceptions. > > I remember when there were attempts to draw the lines based on how much > memory each had. But, times change, and my phone is still not a mainframe. > > > BIG / BIGGER / BIGGEST > > Lose: > screw / screwdriver / scope (or technician) > > pick it up / handtruck / forklift and union moving crew > > delivery: > trunk of your car / delivery truck / moving vanS > > desk / room / building > > week's pay / year's pay / financing. > > sales clerk / visiting salesman / department presentations > > extension cord / dedicated circuit / dedicated pole transformer > > sane / eccentric / raving lunatic > > SO is: > annoyed / furious / long gone > > . . . > >
[cctalk] Re: mainframe vs mini
Speaking of pornography, the ad on page 14 of 80 Micro magazine August 1980 was a bit of a shocker. https://archive.org/details/80-microcomputing-magazine-1980-08/page/n13/mode/2up On Thu, Mar 9, 2023 at 5:40 PM Sellam Abraham via cctalk < cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote: > On Thu, Mar 9, 2023 at 2:18 PM Chuck Guzis via cctalk < > cctalk@classiccmp.org> > wrote: > > > On 3/9/23 13:51, Steve Lewis via cctalk wrote: > > >... > > > > Use the NYT definition of a minicomputer from 1970. "Costs less than > > $25,000" (in 1970 dollars). > > > > --Chuck > > > Like "vintage", or pornography, it's one of those things that you know it > when you see it. > > Of course, everyone sees different. Your red may not be what I call red. > > > So basically we're doomed to misunderstand one another into eternity. > > Nothing new under the sun. > > Sellam > > > > > >
[cctalk] Re: mainframe vs mini
On Thu, Mar 9, 2023 at 2:18 PM Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > On 3/9/23 13:51, Steve Lewis via cctalk wrote: > >... > > Use the NYT definition of a minicomputer from 1970. "Costs less than > $25,000" (in 1970 dollars). > > --Chuck Like "vintage", or pornography, it's one of those things that you know it when you see it. Of course, everyone sees different. Your red may not be what I call red. So basically we're doomed to misunderstand one another into eternity. Nothing new under the sun. Sellam > >
[cctalk] Re: on the origin of home computers
On Mar 9, 2023, at 5:20 PM, Murray McCullough via cctalk wrote: A lot has been written about the origins of the microcomputer. I wrote a book on the topic. Many thanks for mentioning Canada. Whether one is playing games or doing something else micro-computing is usually associated with a microprocessor as CPU. Anything earlier is a minicomputer or something else. On Thu, 9 Mar 2023, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: Sure, although that can get fuzzy. A 4004 microcomputer needs multiple chips. Conversely, I don't think DEC would call an 11/83 a microcomputer even though it uses a single chip (J-11) CPU. Ditto the various small VAXen. ALL attempts at dividing lines will have exceptions. I remember when there were attempts to draw the lines based on how much memory each had. But, times change, and my phone is still not a mainframe. BIG / BIGGER / BIGGEST Lose: screw / screwdriver / scope (or technician) pick it up / handtruck / forklift and union moving crew delivery: trunk of your car / delivery truck / moving vanS desk / room / building week's pay / year's pay / financing. sales clerk / visiting salesman / department presentations extension cord / dedicated circuit / dedicated pole transformer sane / eccentric / raving lunatic SO is: annoyed / furious / long gone . . .
[cctalk] Re: on the origin of home computers
> On Mar 9, 2023, at 5:20 PM, Murray McCullough via cctalk > wrote: > > A lot has been written about the origins of the microcomputer. I wrote a > book on the topic. Many thanks for mentioning Canada. Whether one is > playing games or doing something else micro-computing is usually associated > with a microprocessor as CPU. Anything earlier is a minicomputer or > something else. Sure, although that can get fuzzy. A 4004 microcomputer needs multiple chips. Conversely, I don't think DEC would call an 11/83 a microcomputer even though it uses a single chip (J-11) CPU. Ditto the various small VAXen. paul
[cctalk] Re: on the origin of home computers
A lot has been written about the origins of the microcomputer. I wrote a book on the topic. Many thanks for mentioning Canada. Whether one is playing games or doing something else micro-computing is usually associated with a microprocessor as CPU. Anything earlier is a minicomputer or something else. Yet this is not the point of the video. Let’s enjoy what has been created and give encouragement to the creators. Kudos to them. Murray
[cctalk] Re: mainframe vs mini
On 3/9/23 13:51, Steve Lewis via cctalk wrote: >... Use the NYT definition of a minicomputer from 1970. "Costs less than $25,000" (in 1970 dollars). --Chuck
[cctalk] Re: mainframe vs mini
On Thu, 9 Mar 2023, Steve Lewis via cctalk wrote: Actually, to answer my own question: if "main frame" refers to the actual framing... well the PDP-1, PDP-10, PDP-10 were minicomputers and still required a lot of metal "framing" to set up. So, can't they be considered mainframes? (another notion is that mainframes are "multi-user" -- most early microcomputers were not multi-user, as they just barely supported the needs of one user; I'm not sure if the very first minicomputers were multi-user?) The term minicomputer has always been awkward to me -- "mini" in my head just means something smaller than me, which most minicomputers aren't (but they are much smaller than a building). But to say "mainframe" when showing a minicomputer then necessitates some explanation... Can't win :( -Steve What is the ORIGIN of the term "mainframe"? Keep in mind that the term "Mini Computer" was invented by marketing people to be able to sell/rent computers to small businesses whose needs were small. LATER, it became obvious that many small businesses that succombed to the sales pitches for minicomputers were even better served by microcomputers, particularly several dedicated ones. Accounting needed a computer, but not much of one; payroll of even a few employees ends up requiring an accountant. And, inventory could use a computer, etc. If there is a graphic arts department, they could use a computer, but with seriously different characteristics. There was s'posedly some internal political issues at IBM about whether the Entry Systems Division (5150, etc.) would cut into the other depaartments.
[cctalk] Re: mainframe vs mini
> On Mar 9, 2023, at 5:00 PM, Steve Lewis via cctalk > wrote: > > Actually, to answer my own question: if "main frame" refers to the actual > framing... well the PDP-1, PDP-10, PDP-10 were minicomputers and still > required a lot of metal "framing" to set up. So, can't they be considered > mainframes? > > (another notion is that mainframes are "multi-user" -- most early > microcomputers were not multi-user, as they just barely supported the needs > of one user; I'm not sure if the very first minicomputers were multi-user?) I wouldn't think so, but "multi-user" is in part an OS question. Many early machines were large and expensive enough that they would have been called mainframes if the term had existed back then, but with small enough memory and lack of hardware facilities like interrupts that make a multi-user OS problematic. For that matter, recognizable operating systems didn't appear right at the start. OS/360 is probably not the oldest software system to deserve the name "operating system" but clearly many of the early machines, even large ones, were handled by "bare metal programming". paul
[cctalk] Re: mainframe vs mini
> On Mar 9, 2023, at 4:51 PM, Steve Lewis via cctalk > wrote: > > Not to open a huge can of worms but... > > I always considered a mainframe to basically be a "fully decked out" > minicomputer. > > A minicomputer has a core CPU and memory (or racks of memory), then is > "decked out" with data storage (racks of wall-sized tape decks), printers, > pick-your-typewriter input (or two, or three), and maybe cabinets for > serial IO or modem of some sort. > > So, sometimes I say mainframe when I really mean minicomputer (generally > because mainframe just sounds cooler than "mini-computer" -- that is, > mainframe clearly conveys the notion of "some big ass computer" whereas > minicomputer just needs more clarification). > > What do you guys think? Or is a mainframe one of those giants so large, > you walk inside its CPU? As so often this would be a matter of taste, so I'll just give my view. The term "minicomputer" is a marketing term introduced (or at least popularized) by DEC. It roughly seems to mean a computer that's inexpensive by the standards of the day, moderately powerful, and often suitable for use for a single purpose, or by a single person at a time. A minicomputer as a rule doesn't require specialist personnel, nor special power or cooling. (VAXen push that a bit, especially the earlier large ones.) Conversely, a mainframe tends to be locked in a room with raised floors, special power and cooling systems, and dedicated operators to keep the machine running efficiently. I wonder if the term "mainframe" appeared around the same time as "minicomputer" to distinguish the two. Way before when all computers were big and hairy you wouldn't need a specific name for them. Obviously there are computers that could have been called "minicomputer" but predated the term, like the LGP-30, Electrologica X1, and others -- machines that were similar in size to a PDP-11, and could be powered and cooled in something resembling a normal office space. paul
[cctalk] Re: mainframe vs mini
This has been around the block: You can lose a screw in a micro. You can lose a screwdriver in a mini. You can get lost in a mainframe. -- personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckai...@floodgap.com -- Merci d'eviter le "Top posting"
[cctalk] Re: mainframe vs mini
Actually, to answer my own question: if "main frame" refers to the actual framing... well the PDP-1, PDP-10, PDP-10 were minicomputers and still required a lot of metal "framing" to set up. So, can't they be considered mainframes? (another notion is that mainframes are "multi-user" -- most early microcomputers were not multi-user, as they just barely supported the needs of one user; I'm not sure if the very first minicomputers were multi-user?) The term minicomputer has always been awkward to me -- "mini" in my head just means something smaller than me, which most minicomputers aren't (but they are much smaller than a building). But to say "mainframe" when showing a minicomputer then necessitates some explanation... Can't win :( -Steve On Thu, Mar 9, 2023 at 3:51 PM Steve Lewis wrote: > Not to open a huge can of worms but... > > I always considered a mainframe to basically be a "fully decked out" > minicomputer. > > A minicomputer has a core CPU and memory (or racks of memory), then is > "decked out" with data storage (racks of wall-sized tape decks), printers, > pick-your-typewriter input (or two, or three), and maybe cabinets for > serial IO or modem of some sort. > > So, sometimes I say mainframe when I really mean minicomputer (generally > because mainframe just sounds cooler than "mini-computer" -- that is, > mainframe clearly conveys the notion of "some big ass computer" whereas > minicomputer just needs more clarification). > > > What do you guys think? Or is a mainframe one of those giants so large, > you walk inside its CPU? > > Or, is it like this... > > computer (a whole building, generally at least two story to support > ac ducting and raised floor maintenance -- are these exclusively > mainframes?) > > minicomputer(a single floor or room of a building or possibly a full > top of a desk - and, these are NOT mainframes?) > > microcomputer (half a deck top or smaller, memory and accessories mostly > self contained - doesn't necessarily have to have a microprocessor, but > typically does) > > nanocomputer (modern MCU ? like Raspbery Pi) > > > Also - on "personal computer", it's generally implied "digital electronic > computers" so we don't have to dwell too much on rocks and beads as > computers. Glad we didn't call them "coordinated electron pumpers" :) > > > > -Steve > >
[cctalk] mainframe vs mini
Not to open a huge can of worms but... I always considered a mainframe to basically be a "fully decked out" minicomputer. A minicomputer has a core CPU and memory (or racks of memory), then is "decked out" with data storage (racks of wall-sized tape decks), printers, pick-your-typewriter input (or two, or three), and maybe cabinets for serial IO or modem of some sort. So, sometimes I say mainframe when I really mean minicomputer (generally because mainframe just sounds cooler than "mini-computer" -- that is, mainframe clearly conveys the notion of "some big ass computer" whereas minicomputer just needs more clarification). What do you guys think? Or is a mainframe one of those giants so large, you walk inside its CPU? Or, is it like this... computer (a whole building, generally at least two story to support ac ducting and raised floor maintenance -- are these exclusively mainframes?) minicomputer(a single floor or room of a building or possibly a full top of a desk - and, these are NOT mainframes?) microcomputer (half a deck top or smaller, memory and accessories mostly self contained - doesn't necessarily have to have a microprocessor, but typically does) nanocomputer (modern MCU ? like Raspbery Pi) Also - on "personal computer", it's generally implied "digital electronic computers" so we don't have to dwell too much on rocks and beads as computers. Glad we didn't call them "coordinated electron pumpers" :) -Steve
[cctalk] Re: Age of Tape Formats?
I'll toss a couple of old IBM magtape variations out: The IBM 728, used on SAGE. 7 track, but not your daddy's 7 track. 3 data tracks either side of a central clock track. Different from either of the pre- and post-series drives (727 and 729) that we have grown to love. And, of course, the 7340 hypertape. Inch-wide cartridge tape, 10 tracks, circa 1961. The 7000 series (e.g. 7070, 7090) used only 8 of the tracks. Does anyone know if the extra tracks were intended for use by the 7030 STRETCH? --Chuck
[cctalk] Re: IBM PS/2 Model 80 (8580-071) restoration
It has been a long-time (almost 40 years now) since I worked part-time at an IBM dealer, BUT attended ALL the IBM hardware training (and later as an early corporate PC center manager), including the wonderful OS/2 presentations. I also selected that IBM model for my father’s business software, which required IBM hardware in late 1980s. Most of my documents went to on-line resources, like Tomáš Slavotinik (Ardent Tool). Start with reading Tomáš reference documents … to understand what you have. Ardent Tool of Capitalism maintained by Tomáš Slavotinik current as of 3 March 2023 IBM PS/2 model 80 [8580] : “Wrangler” https://www.ardent-tool.com/60_65_80/ 8580-071 Type 1 Planar https://www.ardent-tool.com/8580/Planar_T1.html — The Diagnostic Disk and Support information for that model can be found there. That Disk and a Fresh battery (as required) is a Good Start. greg chicago == Hi, I acquired an IBM PS/2 Model 80 (8580-071) today and am looking for advice on what I should do to check it out before, during, and after applying power for the first time. I'll try to get some pictures if anyone is interested. The label near the power switch says that it's an 8580-071. I have no idea how that compares to the hardware that's in it. There are two full size (5¼) hard drives, the controller card. I don't know what type of drives they are yet, they look to be MFM / RLL like in that they have the common cable and a per drive cable. There is a video card that has a daughter-card in the same slot like a thick sandwich. There is another card that I don't recognize. The card doesn't have any external connectors and it looks like it takes multiple (approximately 4"x4") daughter-cards. I am wondering if this is a memory expansion of some sort. There are two of what I believe are the memory boards between the back hard drive and the power supply. The battery is still in the system, but I didn't see any corrosion and it's away from the motherboard. There is also the degrading black foam used for air ducting. Blech. Q: What things should I do as part of checking out this system. I'd like to eventually power it up and see what is on the drives (if they will spin). I need to physically clean it with a damp rag and get some pictures of the system. Please share any pro-tips / gotchas / etc. that you think I could benefit from knowing. Thank you and have a good day. -- Grant. . . . unix || die
[cctalk] Re: on the origin of home computers
Well thanks to ya'll prodding - I've brought it up to her again, and she
actually said "hmm, alright, maybe" ! Next week happens to be our spring
break - so. we might give it a shot !
So probably no final rendering this weekend - but hopefully by the end of
the month.
On Thu, Mar 9, 2023 at 1:39 PM Fred Cisin via cctalk
wrote:
> Most important of all, for the video,
> your daughter should decide what parameters matter to her!
>
>
> On Thu, 9 Mar 2023, Steve Lewis via cctalk wrote:
>
> > Sellam,
> >
> >> It seems to come down to agreement (or lack thereof) on the definition
> of
> >> "personal computer".
> >
> > One criteria to me is not so much about the machine/system itself, but on
> > how it is originally financed.
> >
> > If it costs more than a house or has to be financed by a committee, then
> > it's not personal in the same sense as something like "my toothbrush."
> > Because the use of that system is (generally) then under the control and
> > whims of that committee or owners - they paid for it, so they get to
> decide
> > what to do with it and who is authorized to use it.
> >
> > Once such a system retires or gets replaced, and then becomes part of 2nd
> > hand market or surplus, then it's a "found object" that could
> > coincidentally become "personally owned." But I think the original
> context
> > on how the system came to exist stands.
> >
> > Then a second criteria (to me) is like the "my toothbrush" sentiment - it
> > is something small enough or compact enough that an individual can manage
> > putting it where they personally want it to be. That doesn't necessarily
> > mean it fits in a pocket - but something about the size of small
> furniture
> > or a typical kitchen appliance or smaller is about right.
> >
> >
> > A third criteria is that it was built as a consumer product - meaning not
> > just a hand full exist. The rationale here is that it is a "repeatable
> > product" and the process of how the thing was made isn't so esoteric or
> > obscure (or enough "production line" effort was made to make it
> repeatable,
> > if only for a time), This helps draw the line between one-off custom
> > builds -- which those are the ultimate personal computer ("I made it")
> but
> > (to me) are just a different category (I didn't make my toothbrush, but
> > the process for making it is so well understood its become a consumer
> > product).
> >
> >
> > -Steve
>
[cctalk] Re: IBM PS/2 Model 80 (8580-071) restoration
On 3/9/23 1:49 PM, Bill Degnan wrote: I have worked on enough of these to not take chances. It's a pain if you have to guess. If you can't get into the hard drive you can't read the config.sys and autoexec.bat for clues, you can't run a diagnostics as easily. So it's just conservative, my approach. But yes you could just say this is a stock system I have the ref disks I don't see any need to worry. Sounds like you have worked on these enough to know and that's good enough for me. Fair enough. I think it's definitely safe to say that I know that razors are sharp and not to run with scissors. Your conservative approach sounds reasonable. Especially if I don't need to worry about components releasing magic smoke being a likely thing. THis goes without saying but don't remove the battery! I completely agree, don't remove the battery if it's doing its job. But I'm not aware of any effective difference -- with regard to the configuration -- of a dead battery vs missing battery. When I mentioned power source, I was thinking along the lines of a booster pack plugged into the cigarette lighter powering clocks and the likes while replacing the main car battery. But if everything is, and has been, at zero volts for a while, then there's quite likely not anything to be saved. -- Grant. . . . unix || die
[cctalk] Re: IBM PS/2 Model 80 (8580-071) restoration
On Thu, Mar 9, 2023 at 3:40 PM Grant Taylor via cctalk < cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote: > On 3/9/23 1:03 PM, Bill Degnan wrote: > > That's my point, at least try the system see if it works as is, but > > assume the battery is just about dead if not completely. May have > > enough juice for one or two more boots. so get the info out of it > > you can. > > I'm curious, what do you think /might/ be about to be lost that's of value. > > Based on my understanding, the system seems fairly stock, an IBM ESDI > controller, an IBM graphics controller, and what appears to be an IBM > memory expansion. I naively assume that re-configuring those from the > ground up would not be a problem. Of course that's predicated on a > reference disk with the proper ADF files. > I have worked on enough of these to not take chances. It's a pain if you have to guess. If you can't get into the hard drive you can't read the config.sys and autoexec.bat for clues, you can't run a diagnostics as easily. So it's just conservative, my approach. But yes you could just say this is a stock system I have the ref disks I don't see any need to worry. Sounds like you have worked on these enough to know and that's good enough for me. > > I'm assuming that said reference disk, ADF files, and possibly option > disk can be acquired. > > > The chances a model 80 will smoke out or catch fire is less enough > > to make that a secondary concern. > > Thank you for that. > > > no caps like that, this is an IBM. > > Cool. > > I didn't think so. But it's been a long time since I've worked on a > computer 25+ years old. I'm more cautious now than I was the last time > I did so. > > > Even if there is stiction you should still try to boot and capture > > as much info as you can first before you replace the battery. > > Based on previous experience with PS/2s, and re-configuring from the > ground up, I'm not too worried. > > I'd be likely to acquire a new battery and another power source to > connect to the battery terminals while I replace the battery. > > That being said, I should take my volt meter and see if there's anything > at all. If it's dead, then there's not any point in hurrying. > > > I used to work at IBM when they sold these. > > :-) > > THis goes without saying but don't remove the battery! b
[cctalk] Re: IBM PS/2 Model 80 (8580-071) restoration
On 3/9/23 1:03 PM, Bill Degnan wrote: That's my point, at least try the system see if it works as is, but assume the battery is just about dead if not completely. May have enough juice for one or two more boots. so get the info out of it you can. I'm curious, what do you think /might/ be about to be lost that's of value. Based on my understanding, the system seems fairly stock, an IBM ESDI controller, an IBM graphics controller, and what appears to be an IBM memory expansion. I naively assume that re-configuring those from the ground up would not be a problem. Of course that's predicated on a reference disk with the proper ADF files. I'm assuming that said reference disk, ADF files, and possibly option disk can be acquired. The chances a model 80 will smoke out or catch fire is less enough to make that a secondary concern. Thank you for that. no caps like that, this is an IBM. Cool. I didn't think so. But it's been a long time since I've worked on a computer 25+ years old. I'm more cautious now than I was the last time I did so. Even if there is stiction you should still try to boot and capture as much info as you can first before you replace the battery. Based on previous experience with PS/2s, and re-configuring from the ground up, I'm not too worried. I'd be likely to acquire a new battery and another power source to connect to the battery terminals while I replace the battery. That being said, I should take my volt meter and see if there's anything at all. If it's dead, then there's not any point in hurrying. I used to work at IBM when they sold these. :-) -- Grant. . . . unix || die
[cctalk] Re: IBM PS/2 Model 80 (8580-071) restoration
On Thu, Mar 9, 2023 at 2:22 PM John Maxwell via cctalk < cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote: > On 9-Mar-23 10h36. Grant Taylor wrote: > > >On 3/9/23 6:20 AM, Bill Degnan wrote: > >> First and foremost, try to boot the computer to make note of the > >> configuration, if there is one still stored in the system. > > Nowhere do I see any mention of a Model 80 Reference Disk. If you don't > have one of these, you will not be able to configure the machine. I > _should_ have a copy of one lying around (or already imaged/archived) - the > main problem is finding the ADF (Adaptor Description Files) for the added > features/cards. My copy of the Reference Disk would not likely have any > ADFs from obscure cards, but should have the common files. Let me know if > you need a copy. I recall that I had a 'master diskette' with many > collected ADFs which came through the lab. Would have to look for that one, > if interested. ADFs were text files with descriptions of hardware addresses > and the like. > That's my point, at least try the system see if it works as is, but assume the battery is just about dead if not completely. May have enough juice for one or two more boots. so get the info out of it you can. The chances a model 80 will smoke out or catch fire is less enough to make that a secondary concern. > > >Hum. That sort of surprises me. I naively assumed that there would be > some work that I should do before powering the system on to make sure that > there >weren't any spicy components that would make me regret my choices. > Did IBM not use Rifas? Is there any other hardware concerns? > > Not sure of what you mean by 'Rifas' in the last question. Probably an > acronym or other abbreviation of something I may know about, but nothing > comes to my foggy brain presently. no caps like that, this is an IBM. > >I am somewhat worried about stiction on the old hard drives. > Even if there is stiction you should still try to boot and capture as much info as you can first before you replace the battery. > > "Stiction" is probably not your biggest concern regarding the hard drives. > The real problem could be stuck bearings - depending upon HDD model > installed. "Stiction" is the condition where the spindle motor did not have > enough torque to free the head from the platter surfaces - the drives used > in all of the PS/2 Model 80 machines that we saw were beefy enough to > overcome any "stiction" condition. We, in the repair lab (years ago, of > course), used to see this on the original Apple Mac SE and SE/30 machines > where a Sony 20Mb drive was used (the model number has long since been > forgotten and is irrelevant to our discussion, of course) but we used to > give them assistance to last a couple of startups (or at least one!) for > backing up data by using our "inertial rotation" technique to physically > spin the drive using hand motion. We would (wrist-strap grounded, of > course) grab with our free arm the drive in axial alignment over the > spindle and rotate the drive a few times around back and forth in a > snapping action. 95% of the time it would work to retrieve the data before > we would RMA the drive back to Apple. > > >But I tend to not work on systems this old that have been sitting for a > long time often enough to know what I should check. > > > > I used to work at IBM when they sold these. Bill
[cctalk] Re: IBM PS/2 Model 80 (8580-071) restoration
On 3/9/23 10:16 AM, John Maxwell wrote: Nowhere do I see any mention of a Model 80 Reference Disk. If you don't have one of these, you will not be able to configure the machine. Yep. I'm well aware. This is not my 1st PS/2 rodeo. I actually cut my teeth on used PS/2s in the mid-90s. I _should_ have a copy of one lying around (or already imaged/archived) - the main problem is finding the ADF (Adaptor Description Files) for the added features/cards. The usual suspects in the comp.sys.ibm.ps2.hardware newsgroup have already provided links to some ADF files for what they assume the boards likely are based on my descriptions. Aside: I thought that ADF was short for Auto Definition File. But I can see how Adapter works too. My copy of the Reference Disk would not likely have any ADFs from obscure cards, but should have the common files. Based on my descriptions, the presumption is that I've got a standard (for the model 80) ESDI controller, an 8514/A video card, and an IBM 386 Memory Expansion Adapter. I don't consider those to be too exotic. Let me know if you need a copy. I recall that I had a 'master diskette' with many collected ADFs which came through the lab. Would have to look for that one, if interested. I'm always interested in growing my ADF collection. :-) ADFs were text files with descriptions of hardware addresses and the like. That sounds like what I remember. Not sure of what you mean by 'Rifas' in the last question. Probably an acronym or other abbreviation of something I may know about, but nothing comes to my foggy brain presently. My understanding is that RIFA is a brand of capacitor which had a model like which is notorious for failing after time and they seemed to be common in the '90s. "Stiction" is probably not your biggest concern regarding the hard drives. The real problem could be stuck bearings - depending upon HDD model installed. "Stiction" is the condition where the spindle motor did not have enough torque to free the head from the platter surfaces - the drives used in all of the PS/2 Model 80 machines that we saw were beefy enough to overcome any "stiction" condition. We, in the repair lab (years ago, of course), used to see this on the original Apple Mac SE and SE/30 machines where a Sony 20Mb drive was used (the model number has long since been forgotten and is irrelevant to our discussion, of course) but we used to give them assistance to last a couple of startups (or at least one!) for backing up data by using our "inertial rotation" technique to physically spin the drive using hand motion. We would (wrist-strap grounded, of course) grab with our free arm the drive in axial alignment over the spindle and rotate the drive a few times around back and forth in a snapping action. 95% of the time it would work to retrieve the data before we would RMA the drive back to Apple. *nod* That's what I was referring to as sticktion. I don't know the state of the bearings. Is there anything that I can or should do for them? The battery used is one of the old 6V photoflash types (cannot recall the model, unfortunately). I have a few of them left in my collection - just ran into them in a box (with 2 or 3 left) a few months ago. Each still had over 6v (no load) at the terminals. No idea how long they would last in application under load, though, even though the Model 80 didn't use too much current to hold things in config memory. ACK My assumption is that the Model 80 has been powered off for years, if not a decade or more. It's on the older end of a five computers I picked up from someone who wanted them hauled away. I'm not holding my breath that they powered the PS/2 on anytime in the last decade. ;-) Just my $0.02 (not even sure it was worth that much). Good luck with your 80. Thank you. You're sharing things that seem familiar. Which is appreciated because it means that my memory isn't that far out of calibration or bit rot. -- Grant. . . . unix || die
[cctalk] Re: on the origin of home computers
Most important of all, for the video,
your daughter should decide what parameters matter to her!
On Thu, 9 Mar 2023, Steve Lewis via cctalk wrote:
Sellam,
It seems to come down to agreement (or lack thereof) on the definition of
"personal computer".
One criteria to me is not so much about the machine/system itself, but on
how it is originally financed.
If it costs more than a house or has to be financed by a committee, then
it's not personal in the same sense as something like "my toothbrush."
Because the use of that system is (generally) then under the control and
whims of that committee or owners - they paid for it, so they get to decide
what to do with it and who is authorized to use it.
Once such a system retires or gets replaced, and then becomes part of 2nd
hand market or surplus, then it's a "found object" that could
coincidentally become "personally owned." But I think the original context
on how the system came to exist stands.
Then a second criteria (to me) is like the "my toothbrush" sentiment - it
is something small enough or compact enough that an individual can manage
putting it where they personally want it to be. That doesn't necessarily
mean it fits in a pocket - but something about the size of small furniture
or a typical kitchen appliance or smaller is about right.
A third criteria is that it was built as a consumer product - meaning not
just a hand full exist. The rationale here is that it is a "repeatable
product" and the process of how the thing was made isn't so esoteric or
obscure (or enough "production line" effort was made to make it repeatable,
if only for a time), This helps draw the line between one-off custom
builds -- which those are the ultimate personal computer ("I made it") but
(to me) are just a different category (I didn't make my toothbrush, but
the process for making it is so well understood its become a consumer
product).
-Steve
[cctalk] Re: on the origin of home computers
On Thu, 9 Mar 2023, Steve Lewis via cctalk wrote:
A third criteria is that it was built as a consumer product - meaning not
just a hand full exist. The rationale here is that it is a "repeatable
product" and the process of how the thing was made isn't so esoteric or
obscure (or enough "production line" effort was made to make it repeatable,
if only for a time), This helps draw the line between one-off custom
builds -- which those are the ultimate personal computer ("I made it") but
(to me) are just a different category (I didn't make my toothbrush, but
the process for making it is so well understood its become a consumer
product).
Tony Cole had a hobby/business of parting out decommissioned Crays.
He also had a business ("VIPC"), assembling generic 5160 clones.
At one time, he decided to build "the ultimate personal computer".
He used a tower server case, which he had gold plated ("for RF shielding"
:-)
Top of the line AT motherboard, drives, video, etc.
He and his "ultimate personal computer" made it onto the cover of many of
the computer magazines. Which was incredibly great advertising for his
generic clone business, and his Cray spare parts and souvenir business.
Price and size of a personal computer depend on what you can afford, and
how much room you have.
--
Grumpy Ol' Fred ci...@xenosoft.com
[cctalk] Re: IBM PS/2 Model 80 (8580-071) restoration
On 9-Mar-23 10h36. Grant Taylor wrote: >On 3/9/23 6:20 AM, Bill Degnan wrote: >> First and foremost, try to boot the computer to make note of the >> configuration, if there is one still stored in the system. Nowhere do I see any mention of a Model 80 Reference Disk. If you don't have one of these, you will not be able to configure the machine. I _should_ have a copy of one lying around (or already imaged/archived) - the main problem is finding the ADF (Adaptor Description Files) for the added features/cards. My copy of the Reference Disk would not likely have any ADFs from obscure cards, but should have the common files. Let me know if you need a copy. I recall that I had a 'master diskette' with many collected ADFs which came through the lab. Would have to look for that one, if interested. ADFs were text files with descriptions of hardware addresses and the like. >Hum. That sort of surprises me. I naively assumed that there would be some >work that I should do before powering the system on to make sure that there >>weren't any spicy components that would make me regret my choices. Did IBM >not use Rifas? Is there any other hardware concerns? Not sure of what you mean by 'Rifas' in the last question. Probably an acronym or other abbreviation of something I may know about, but nothing comes to my foggy brain presently. >I am somewhat worried about stiction on the old hard drives. "Stiction" is probably not your biggest concern regarding the hard drives. The real problem could be stuck bearings - depending upon HDD model installed. "Stiction" is the condition where the spindle motor did not have enough torque to free the head from the platter surfaces - the drives used in all of the PS/2 Model 80 machines that we saw were beefy enough to overcome any "stiction" condition. We, in the repair lab (years ago, of course), used to see this on the original Apple Mac SE and SE/30 machines where a Sony 20Mb drive was used (the model number has long since been forgotten and is irrelevant to our discussion, of course) but we used to give them assistance to last a couple of startups (or at least one!) for backing up data by using our "inertial rotation" technique to physically spin the drive using hand motion. We would (wrist-strap grounded, of course) grab with our free arm the drive in axial alignment over the spindle and rotate the drive a few times around back and forth in a snapping action. 95% of the time it would work to retrieve the data before we would RMA the drive back to Apple. >But I tend to not work on systems this old that have been sitting for a long >time often enough to know what I should check. >I'm guessing this system is from about a decade (or more) before failing >capacitors were common place on ... economy systems. >> I don't expect the battery to have held the config but there is always >> hope. >Agreed. >This is far from my first time working with IBM PS/2s, so the lack of a >configuration isn't a big concern to me. I'm well aware of reference disks / >option disks / >convenience partitions on models that support them. >> Make detailed notes if you're lucky enough to have the configs saved. >> Otherwise get a new battery before you do anything or you'll be >> spinning your wheels. >It's been just long enough since the last time I worked on a PS/2 that I can't >remember if the battery was required at any power off or just power removed >from >the PSU. I've had different systems behavie differently in this regard >with a dead BIOS battery. The battery used is one of the old 6V photoflash types (cannot recall the model, unfortunately). I have a few of them left in my collection - just ran into them in a box (with 2 or 3 left) a few months ago. Each still had over 6v (no load) at the terminals. No idea how long they would last in application under load, though, even though the Model 80 didn't use too much current to hold things in config memory. Just my $0.02 (not even sure it was worth that much). Good luck with your 80.
[cctalk] Re: on the origin of home computers
On Thu, 9 Mar 2023, Sellam Abraham via cctalk wrote:
It seems to come down to agreement (or lack thereof) on the definition of
"personal computer".
Somehow I feel like this debate has been had before. Probably here.
Probably several times.
Sellam
It is a permanent topic.
Along with "First".
("proposed"/"designed"/"prototyped"/"announced"/"demonstrated"/"offered
for sale"/"sold"/"delivered"/"retail availability without
pre-order/waitlist")
IBM PC/5150 was announced/released August 11, 1981. But, it was many
months before I could take one home.
I was able to take home a TRS80 first, but some other people were able to
take home Apple first. (I insist that TRS80/PET/Apple2 was a TIE)
It would help to clarify a bit of basic elements.
ANY computer can be considered to be a personal computer. A pile of stones
to use as an abacus is a personal computer. Marked sticks to use as a
slide rule are a personal computer. When I first took the SATs, we were
told "NO sliderules", but to bring our own scratch paper, including graph
paper! What do you get when you slide two pieces of log graph paper past
each other? The next time, they changed the rules, and they supplied the
scratch paper, but still required the test takers to bring multiple #2
pencils, and didn't rule out pencils with a log scale down the side.
Operated by single person is kinda arbitrary. Lots of people have "Geek
Squad" set up their "personal computer", or have company IT people
maintain it, and untangle user induced problems.
I had a blind student, who sometimes got other people to help read the
portions of the screen that the Votrax choked on.
Some personal computers have more than one screen (great for
progtramming).
I've seen some with more than one keyboard. If two, or more people play a
game on one, does that make it no longer a "personal" computer?
In Fabrice Florin's Nova documentary, "Hackers : Wizards Of The Electronic
Age", there is a scene of consensus joysticks.
Size? Price? Weight? arbitrary.
A Cray is a personal computer.
If you were a billionaire, might you have one as a personal computer?
The probability of my having serious money has kept me from fantasizing
what I would have.
Some people try to insert the word "reasonable".
"The reasonable man adapts to the world; the unreasonable man tries to
adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the
unreasonable man." - George Bernard Shaw
Would it work to limit it to machines that were designed, manufactured,
and marketed for the purpose of being one?
That invokes "intent".
Therefore, ALL computers are personal computers.
Whether a computer is a "HOME computer" involves where and how would you
want to live? Do we count the one that the Vogons destroyed, that the
mice had commissioned Magrathea to build?
We did eventually come up with definitions of
microcomputer/minicomputer/mainframe.
"Can you pick it up"/"handtruck"/"union moving crew"
"lose a screw in it"/"lose a screwdriver in it"/"lose a scope or a
technician"
(size/price/weight/architecture all have exceptions)
So, maybe there is still hope for a definition.
"Would you refuse others access to it?"/"only those you want to
impress"/"Only family members"/"Only close friends, or those you want to
have sex with"
--
Grumpy Ol' Fred ci...@xenosoft.com
[cctalk] Re: on the origin of home computers
Sellam,
> It seems to come down to agreement (or lack thereof) on the definition of
> "personal computer".
One criteria to me is not so much about the machine/system itself, but on
how it is originally financed.
If it costs more than a house or has to be financed by a committee, then
it's not personal in the same sense as something like "my toothbrush."
Because the use of that system is (generally) then under the control and
whims of that committee or owners - they paid for it, so they get to decide
what to do with it and who is authorized to use it.
Once such a system retires or gets replaced, and then becomes part of 2nd
hand market or surplus, then it's a "found object" that could
coincidentally become "personally owned." But I think the original context
on how the system came to exist stands.
Then a second criteria (to me) is like the "my toothbrush" sentiment - it
is something small enough or compact enough that an individual can manage
putting it where they personally want it to be. That doesn't necessarily
mean it fits in a pocket - but something about the size of small furniture
or a typical kitchen appliance or smaller is about right.
A third criteria is that it was built as a consumer product - meaning not
just a hand full exist. The rationale here is that it is a "repeatable
product" and the process of how the thing was made isn't so esoteric or
obscure (or enough "production line" effort was made to make it repeatable,
if only for a time), This helps draw the line between one-off custom
builds -- which those are the ultimate personal computer ("I made it") but
(to me) are just a different category (I didn't make my toothbrush, but
the process for making it is so well understood its become a consumer
product).
-Steve
>
[cctalk] Re: on the origin of home computers
On 2023-03-09 10:31 a.m., Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: No doubt it was capable of being operated by a single user, but that to me does not make it a personal computer. The LGP-30 was used in schools and offices not targeted for industrial use. There is really no reason why any computer could not be a personal computer, if you know everything about it and use independently and operate for personal use. It's really impossible to claim any computer was the "first personal computer", but I like the LGP-30 as one of the first. I bet someone used the BENDIX for fun once in a while, too. BIll Quit changing the rules, BIG COMPUTERS make a great home computer. The cpu has been repainted and makes a lovely walk in kitchen. The power supplies make both a up stairs and down stairs bathroom. Three 4K single core bed rooms and master 8K bed room with extra big Cache. ... and FREE air conditioning, Coming soon to a DUMPSTER near you. I think the IBM-1130 would be the only vintage computer that be a the first personal computer, as It came with BASIC,FORTRAN IV and APL. Ben.
[cctalk] Re: on the origin of home computers
It seems to come down to agreement (or lack thereof) on the definition of "personal computer". Somehow I feel like this debate has been had before. Probably here. Probably several times. Sellam On Thu, Mar 9, 2023, 9:31 AM Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: > > > > > > > > > John, > > > I have the manuals for both systems. I don't get the impression that > the > > > G-15 was sold as a "personal computer" in the same way as the Royal > McBee > > > LGP-23/30 were. The Bendix has an analog computing aspect as well so > > it's > > > a different beast. I am sure people used them for some degree of > > personal > > > computing, but I never read about them that way > > > > There was an add-on analog element, (I've never seen one), > > but the G-15 was definitely a digital machine with drum > > memory and serial arithmetic. It was used a LOT by highway > > departments to plan "cut and fill" highway building > > projects. The difference may have been due to marketing > > people, but my understanding was that the G-15 was often > > used by one operator, and not shared like a corporate mainframe. > > > > Jon > > > > > No doubt it was capable of being operated by a single user, but that to me > does not make it a personal computer. The LGP-30 was used in schools and > offices not targeted for industrial use. There is really no reason why any > computer could not be a personal computer, if you know everything about it > and use independently and operate for personal use. It's really impossible > to claim any computer was the "first personal computer", but I like the > LGP-30 as one of the first. I bet someone used the BENDIX for fun once in > a while, too. > BIll >
[cctalk] Re: on the origin of home computers
> > > > > John, > > I have the manuals for both systems. I don't get the impression that the > > G-15 was sold as a "personal computer" in the same way as the Royal McBee > > LGP-23/30 were. The Bendix has an analog computing aspect as well so > it's > > a different beast. I am sure people used them for some degree of > personal > > computing, but I never read about them that way > > There was an add-on analog element, (I've never seen one), > but the G-15 was definitely a digital machine with drum > memory and serial arithmetic. It was used a LOT by highway > departments to plan "cut and fill" highway building > projects. The difference may have been due to marketing > people, but my understanding was that the G-15 was often > used by one operator, and not shared like a corporate mainframe. > > Jon > > No doubt it was capable of being operated by a single user, but that to me does not make it a personal computer. The LGP-30 was used in schools and offices not targeted for industrial use. There is really no reason why any computer could not be a personal computer, if you know everything about it and use independently and operate for personal use. It's really impossible to claim any computer was the "first personal computer", but I like the LGP-30 as one of the first. I bet someone used the BENDIX for fun once in a while, too. BIll
[cctalk] Re: on the origin of home computers
On 3/8/23 20:01, Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: On Wed, Mar 8, 2023 at 6:46 PM Jon Elson via cctalk wrote: On 3/8/23 14:31, Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: THe LGP-30 was to arguably the first personal electronic (non analog) computer, my opinion, but it covers all of the bases as I see them. A relatively small stand alone real time general purpose electronic computer that one person could operate. The Bendix G-15 also fits that description. Jon John, I have the manuals for both systems. I don't get the impression that the G-15 was sold as a "personal computer" in the same way as the Royal McBee LGP-23/30 were. The Bendix has an analog computing aspect as well so it's a different beast. I am sure people used them for some degree of personal computing, but I never read about them that way There was an add-on analog element, (I've never seen one), but the G-15 was definitely a digital machine with drum memory and serial arithmetic. It was used a LOT by highway departments to plan "cut and fill" highway building projects. The difference may have been due to marketing people, but my understanding was that the G-15 was often used by one operator, and not shared like a corporate mainframe. Jon
[cctalk] Re: IBM PS/2 Model 80 (8580-071) restoration
On 3/9/23 6:20 AM, Bill Degnan wrote: First and foremost, try to boot the computer to make note of the configuration, if there is one still stored in the system. Hum. That sort of surprises me. I naively assumed that there would be some work that I should do before powering the system on to make sure that there weren't any spicy components that would make me regret my choices. Did IBM not use Rifas? Is there any other hardware concerns? I am somewhat worried about stiction on the old hard drives. But I tend to not work on systems this old that have been sitting for a long time often enough to know what I should check. I'm guessing this system is from about a decade (or more) before failing capacitors were common place on ... economy systems. I don't expect the battery to have held the config but there is always hope. Agreed. This is far from my first time working with IBM PS/2s, so the lack of a configuration isn't a big concern to me. I'm well aware of reference disks / option disks / convenience partitions on models that support them. Make detailed notes if you're lucky enough to have the configs saved. Otherwise get a new battery before you do anything or you'll be spinning your wheels. It's been just long enough since the last time I worked on a PS/2 that I can't remember if the battery was required at any power off or just power removed from the PSU. I've had different systems behavie differently in this regard with a dead BIOS battery. -- Grant. . . . unix || die
[cctalk] Re: on the origin of home computers
> On Mar 8, 2023, at 10:11 PM, Brian L. Stuart via cctalk > wrote: > > ... > If you all are interested a different take on the origins of > personal computing, here's a recording I made for use during > the pandemic of a talk that I give every year to our freshmen > at Drexel University. > > https://1513041.mediaspace.kaltura.com/media/Whence+Came+the+Personal+Computer/1_dq6va75g > > > If you'd like to go back even farther, here's a page I have > on the ENIAC. At the bottom are links to a number of talks > I've given on the subject: > > http://cs.drexel.edu/~bls96/eniac/ On that sort of history: there's a neat document in the online archives of CWI in Amsterdam, a course syllabus for a course on computer construction given by prof. van Wijngaarden in February of 1948. I just completed an English translation of it, and I'm wondering if there might be a good home for that somewhere (once I proofread it). From the introduction: "The field is new. The Eniac is at the moment the only working machine, while one of these days the Selective Sequence Electronic Calculator from the I.B.M. will be demonstrated." paul
[cctalk] Re: Age of Tape Formats?
> On Mar 8, 2023, at 10:23 PM, Chris Elmquist via cctalk > wrote: > > > >> On Mar 8, 2023, at 4:18 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk >> wrote: >> >> On 3/8/23 13:53, Sellam Abraham via cctalk wrote: On Wed, Mar 8, 2023 at 1:39 PM Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: On the subject of 1/2" open-reel tape, I note that the tapes initially used with the IBM 726 drive (1952) used a cellulose acetate base. In 1956, a switch was made to Mylar. That's unfortunate, since early existing 726 tapes have almost certainly rotted away due to vinegar syndrome. >>> >>> I have what appears to be a stainless steel UNIVAC tape. It isn't >>> crumbling away into dust anytime soon. >>> >> Heavy bugger,no? >> Nickel-plated Vicalloy (a type of phosphor-bronze). > > Yes, heavy. I have one too, from UNIVAC 1 > > Who can read them now? ;-) > > cje I saw an article reporting on that recently. An effort of the CHM, I think, and yes, it definitely worked. Al, can you tell us more? paull
[cctalk] Re: IBM PS/2 Model 80 (8580-071) restoration
First and foremost, try to boot the computer to make note of the configuration, if there is one still stored in the system. I don't expect the battery to have held the config but there is always hope. Make detailed notes if you're lucky enough to have the configs saved. Otherwise get a new battery before you do anything or you'll be spinning your wheels. Bill On Thu, Mar 9, 2023 at 2:02 AM r.stricklin via cctalk wrote: > > > > On Mar 8, 2023, at 8:18 PM, Grant Taylor via cctalk < > cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > The label near the power switch says that it's an 8580-071. I have no > idea how that compares to the hardware that's in it. > > That would be 16 MHz, one 70 MB ESDI HDD (IBM 0667). Maximum 2 MB on the > planar (2x 1 MB modules). > > > There is a video card that has a daughter-card in the same slot like a > thick sandwich. > > likely 8514/A > > > There is another card that I don't recognize. The card doesn't have any > external connectors and it looks like it takes multiple (approximately > 4"x4") daughter-cards. I am wondering if this is a memory expansion of > some sort. > > Yes. > > > There are two of what I believe are the memory boards between the back > hard drive and the power supply. > > Yes. > > > Blech. > > Yes. > > > Please share any pro-tips / gotchas / etc. that you think I could > benefit from knowing. > > You’ll want the reference disk, and the option disks for the various > boards installed. The base reference disk should have the necessary files > to configure the ESDI controller and drives, might also have the necessary > files to configure the memory expansion boards (not sure). Probably won’t > have the 8514/A files so you’ll definitely need that option disk, unless > you copy a reference disk already customized with support for those options. > > > ok > bear.
[cctalk] Re: on the origin of home computers
On Thu, Mar 9, 2023 at 2:03 AM Tarek Hoteit via cctalk < cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote: > :) it makes sense, Sellam, to inform her rather than she telling us, but > again she and others her age are the future. She will do it her way just > like we, at her age, did it our way. Funny: i just remembered a quote from > Goonies - “this is our time” > > > > It is their time > > > Regards, > Tarek Hoteit > > Sounds good until you think about it. b
[cctalk] Re: Age of Tape Formats?
On 3/8/2023 1:19 PM, Dave Wade G4UGM via cctalk wrote: -Original Message- From: Chuck Guzis via cctalk Sent: Wednesday, March 8, 2023 6:08 PM To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Cc: Chuck Guzis Subject: [cctalk] Re: Age of Tape Formats? I think it remarkable in retrospect that the original Star Trek (ca. 1966) used countless mentions of "computer tapes" in the 23rd century. Yes, but Space 1999 still had slide rules.. It's 2023 and so do I. Have started teaching my grandson what it is and how it works. bill
[cctalk] Re: on the origin of home computers
> On 03/09/2023 1:24 AM CST Steve Lewis via cctalk > wrote: > > > Thank you all for the notes (and feedback). > > The 1964 skit of Patty Duke using that Univac-422 - all the markings of a > personal computer right there, no doubt. But dragging that into a home > doesn't make it a home computer. As engineers, sure, we're good with that > - I don't even put cases on my computers. Air flow, p, overrated. > Unless the AC cuts out in the summer. > > Steve, I think the video is very good and much needed. You and your daughter deserve kudos for it. When I was watching it I had the urge to do what others have done -- sharpshoot it from my perspective. Then I remembered who the intended audience was and changed my perspective. With that change I realized it was spot on. Would I have done it different? Sure. But that doesn't make mine "right" and yours "wrong." If your video gets ten young(er) people interested they can join some mailing list like this in the future and argue endlessly about which one was "first." So, congratulations to you and your daughter. It's a very nice video. Will
[cctalk] Re: on the origin of home computers
Grumpy Ol' Fred , On the GENIAC -- thanks for sharing that! It has this "killer app" called "Masculine–Feminine Testing Machine" Brilliant! On Wed, Mar 8, 2023 at 2:41 PM Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > Since we are never going to completely agree on > "First", > "computer", > "home computer", > "home computing", (using a a terminal with a remote computer) > > might I suggest the works of Edmund Berkeley. > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geniac > https://www.instructables.com/GENIAC-Electric-Brain-Replica/ > > Full text of "Giant Brains, or, Machines That Think" > https://archive.org/details/in.ernet.dli.2015.233530 > https://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/68991 > > > OB_tangent: I remember that Jim Warren said "machinew WHO think" > > > On the issue of "first", many authors on the topic have personal > "requirements" for it to be considered. (such as storage, video display, > keyboard, HDD, etc.) "It wasn't REALLY a computer, unless it had ..." In > MOST cases, they will declare the "first" to be one generation before they > got one. CP/M users often choose Altair; People who started in PC will > often pick CP/M; people who started with Windoze might pick DOS, Mac > users declare Apple2, etc. > > -- > Grumpy Ol' Fred ci...@xenosoft.com >
[cctalk] Re: Age of Tape Formats?
On 3/8/23 22:23, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: On 3/8/23 19:23, Chris Elmquist wrote: Who can read them now? ;-) I suppose that you could rig something up as a streaming rig, but the metal was murder on heads; the Univservo I interposed a thin plastic tape between the metal and the head. Fortunately, the density was pretty low. Not easy--the contents would have to be special. But not gone forever. --Chuck The Univac 3 had nothing but Uniservo 3 tape drives, and continually did things between drives in most installations. I read that most job steps consisted of putting the OS and other stuff on a tape prior to doing something, then preparing another drive with the next step and a copy of the OS. So any Uniservo U3 tape could have the OS and the job data on it. None should be taken to have only data. And most operations programmed variants, so different installations tapes would have differ flavors of the OS to suit their styles and needs. Not many had disk drives from what I saw, certainly none had Disk OS. Some probably didn't run the software from the tape drives, but the tape was the reason for the movies both fiction, bad TV and real machine rooms in that era having so many drives. I don't think the U3 had metalic tape, but won't swear. Didn't really get a chance to look at the tape when i had access to the Univac 3. My web page archived, and referenced by Wikipedia. Photos taken when we had a Univac 3. Bill Donzelli may have tapes and residue from the system. Thanks Jim https://web.archive.org/web/20050901062918/http://jwstephens.com/univac3/page_01.htm
