RE: Certification Question
That's because they see your name on them and send them straight to the bin. Create a new email that doesn't have your name in it and try again. See if this one's taken: [EMAIL PROTECTED] or [EMAIL PROTECTED] :) -Original Message- From: Simon Free [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, July 14, 2008 9:50 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: Certification Question Hey all, I have heard rumors that the CF8 certification no longer has the advanced level, and is purely a pass/fail. Does anyone know if this is true? All me emails to adobe never got responses. Thanks -Si - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.simonfree.com ~| Adobe® ColdFusion® 8 software 8 is the most important and dramatic release to date Get the Free Trial http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;203748912;27390454;j Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:309004 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4
Re: Certification
You seem to be viewing Brainbench certs unfavorably because you can look up answers in the manual as you take the test. The Brainbench tests are intended to be open-book and the Adobe test is intended to be closed-book. So the questions you see on a Brainbench test are much harder than the questions on the Adobe test. Many of the questions cannot be answered without looking up the answer. That is what you are being tested on. Can you look up the correct answer or solve the problem within two minutes. It is not testing how well you can memorize a study guide. I would place a higher value on a vendor cert, but I would look favorably on a Brainbench cert as well. The fact that someone took the time to get certified is an indication that they are serious about their career and are interested in professional growth. -Mike Chabot On 12/17/06, Nicholas M Tunney [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In the staffing portion of my company, we do not pay any attention to Brainbench certs. You can look every answer up as you take the test. Many of our clients require the developers we send out to be CF certified by Adobe. Just my 2c. Robertson-Ravo, Neil (RX) wrote: Not really, as the fact they are worthless (not useless) is no doubt the reason they do not take them. In the professional world whether you are ColdFusion certified or not means nada - certainly from what I have seen in the UK. I mean, isn't it mostly multiple choice still?! The Brainbench is good as well a Snake noted. Perhaps better. This e-mail is from Reed Exhibitions (Gateway House, 28 The Quadrant, Richmond, Surrey, TW9 1DN, United Kingdom), a division of Reed Business, Registered in England, Number 678540. It contains information which is confidential and may also be privileged. It is for the exclusive use of the intended recipient(s). If you are not the intended recipient(s) please note that any form of distribution, copying or use of this communication or the information in it is strictly prohibited and may be unlawful. If you have received this communication in error please return it to the sender or call our switchboard on +44 (0) 20 89107910. The opinions expressed within this communication are not necessarily those expressed by Reed Exhibitions. Visit our website at http://www.reedexpo.com -Original Message- From: Larry Lyons To: CF-Talk Sent: Sat Dec 16 19:40:54 2006 Subject: Re: Certification Agreed, the certs are pretty much worthless in the real world. This topic come up on a regular basis, almost once every 2 or 3 months. Ever notice that generally those who say the CFMX certification is useless are those who boast that they don't have it? just a thought. ~| Create robust enterprise, web RIAs. Upgrade integrate Adobe Coldfusion MX7 with Flex 2 http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;56760587;14748456;a?http://www.adobe.com/products/coldfusion/flex2/?sdid=LVNU Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:264303 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4
Re: Certification
As for looking up the answer... As noted isn't the Adobe one multiple choice still? where the answer is right in front of you on every Q! As my old Physics teacher used to say, multiple choice is not a test.. a monkey with a stick could get a pass by stroking the page randomly... Your old physics teacher could stand to brush up on instructional design. Well-written multiple choice exams will not typically be passed by a monkey with a stick. Given that most universities do not require their instructors or professors to have any skills at teaching, I'm not surprised that he would have such an opinion. A well designed multiple choice test cannot be passed by random selection. Depending on the structure, even getting 25% using random responses would be surprising. regards, larry ~| Create robust enterprise, web RIAs. Upgrade integrate Adobe Coldfusion MX7 with Flex 2 http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;56760587;14748456;a?http://www.adobe.com/products/coldfusion/flex2/?sdid=LVNU Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:264317 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
RE: Certification
Also in a real world environment you don't try and code from memory do you. You refer to your books and documentation and lists like this one to get a job done if you don't know how to do it. -Original Message- From: Mike Chabot [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 18 December 2006 14:56 To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: Certification You seem to be viewing Brainbench certs unfavorably because you can look up answers in the manual as you take the test. The Brainbench tests are intended to be open-book and the Adobe test is intended to be closed-book. So the questions you see on a Brainbench test are much harder than the questions on the Adobe test. Many of the questions cannot be answered without looking up the answer. That is what you are being tested on. Can you look up the correct answer or solve the problem within two minutes. It is not testing how well you can memorize a study guide. I would place a higher value on a vendor cert, but I would look favorably on a Brainbench cert as well. The fact that someone took the time to get certified is an indication that they are serious about their career and are interested in professional growth. -Mike Chabot On 12/17/06, Nicholas M Tunney [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In the staffing portion of my company, we do not pay any attention to Brainbench certs. You can look every answer up as you take the test. Many of our clients require the developers we send out to be CF certified by Adobe. Just my 2c. Robertson-Ravo, Neil (RX) wrote: Not really, as the fact they are worthless (not useless) is no doubt the reason they do not take them. In the professional world whether you are ColdFusion certified or not means nada - certainly from what I have seen in the UK. I mean, isn't it mostly multiple choice still?! The Brainbench is good as well a Snake noted. Perhaps better. This e-mail is from Reed Exhibitions (Gateway House, 28 The Quadrant, Richmond, Surrey, TW9 1DN, United Kingdom), a division of Reed Business, Registered in England, Number 678540. It contains information which is confidential and may also be privileged. It is for the exclusive use of the intended recipient(s). If you are not the intended recipient(s) please note that any form of distribution, copying or use of this communication or the information in it is strictly prohibited and may be unlawful. If you have received this communication in error please return it to the sender or call our switchboard on +44 (0) 20 89107910. The opinions expressed within this communication are not necessarily those expressed by Reed Exhibitions. Visit our website at http://www.reedexpo.com -Original Message- From: Larry Lyons To: CF-Talk Sent: Sat Dec 16 19:40:54 2006 Subject: Re: Certification Agreed, the certs are pretty much worthless in the real world. This topic come up on a regular basis, almost once every 2 or 3 months. Ever notice that generally those who say the CFMX certification is useless are those who boast that they don't have it? just a thought. ~| Create robust enterprise, web RIAs. Upgrade integrate Adobe Coldfusion MX7 with Flex 2 http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;56760587;14748456;a?http://www.adobe.com/products/coldfusion/flex2/?sdid=LVNU Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:264321 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
RE: Certification
Well I have to say that I know someone who passed the Macromedia certification using random selection. He had never done a single line of CFML in his life. Russ -Original Message- From: Larry Lyons [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 18 December 2006 15:38 To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: Certification As for looking up the answer... As noted isn't the Adobe one multiple choice still? where the answer is right in front of you on every Q! As my old Physics teacher used to say, multiple choice is not a test.. a monkey with a stick could get a pass by stroking the page randomly... Your old physics teacher could stand to brush up on instructional design. Well-written multiple choice exams will not typically be passed by a monkey with a stick. Given that most universities do not require their instructors or professors to have any skills at teaching, I'm not surprised that he would have such an opinion. A well designed multiple choice test cannot be passed by random selection. Depending on the structure, even getting 25% using random responses would be surprising. regards, larry ~| Create robust enterprise, web RIAs. Upgrade integrate Adobe Coldfusion MX7 with Flex 2 http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;56760587;14748456;a?http://www.adobe.com/products/coldfusion/flex2/?sdid=LVNU Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:264322 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
Re: Certification
This is why I don't buy into certifications. Anyone can study for a test, and get the answers right. Thankfully my boss sees it the same way. My company has each applicant take a logic test (11 questions), and if you don't pass with a 9 or better you don't get hired. Period. It doesn't matter how much schooling you've had or which alphabet soup certifications you've got. My company is interested in smart people that get results. Not folks who can take a test. I SUMMON THE *VAST* POWERS OF CERTIFICATION! Oh. Well this is embarassing... that's all I remember from those classes... Cheers, Chris Snake wrote: Well I have to say that I know someone who passed the Macromedia certification using random selection. He had never done a single line of CFML in his life. Russ -Original Message- From: Larry Lyons [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 18 December 2006 15:38 To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: Certification As for looking up the answer... As noted isn't the Adobe one multiple choice still? where the answer is right in front of you on every Q! As my old Physics teacher used to say, multiple choice is not a test.. a monkey with a stick could get a pass by stroking the page randomly... Your old physics teacher could stand to brush up on instructional design. Well-written multiple choice exams will not typically be passed by a monkey with a stick. Given that most universities do not require their instructors or professors to have any skills at teaching, I'm not surprised that he would have such an opinion. A well designed multiple choice test cannot be passed by random selection. Depending on the structure, even getting 25% using random responses would be surprising. regards, larry ~| Create robust enterprise, web RIAs. Upgrade integrate Adobe Coldfusion MX7 with Flex 2 http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;56760587;14748456;a?http://www.adobe.com/products/coldfusion/flex2/?sdid=LVNU Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:264325 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4
RE: Certification
I don't know. I took a brainbench CF test back in the day and I remember a lot of questions that you can just paste into an cfm page, run it and get the answer... Russ -Original Message- From: Mike Chabot [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, December 18, 2006 9:56 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: Certification You seem to be viewing Brainbench certs unfavorably because you can look up answers in the manual as you take the test. The Brainbench tests are intended to be open-book and the Adobe test is intended to be closed-book. So the questions you see on a Brainbench test are much harder than the questions on the Adobe test. Many of the questions cannot be answered without looking up the answer. That is what you are being tested on. Can you look up the correct answer or solve the problem within two minutes. It is not testing how well you can memorize a study guide. I would place a higher value on a vendor cert, but I would look favorably on a Brainbench cert as well. The fact that someone took the time to get certified is an indication that they are serious about their career and are interested in professional growth. -Mike Chabot On 12/17/06, Nicholas M Tunney [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In the staffing portion of my company, we do not pay any attention to Brainbench certs. You can look every answer up as you take the test. Many of our clients require the developers we send out to be CF certified by Adobe. Just my 2c. Robertson-Ravo, Neil (RX) wrote: Not really, as the fact they are worthless (not useless) is no doubt the reason they do not take them. In the professional world whether you are ColdFusion certified or not means nada - certainly from what I have seen in the UK. I mean, isn't it mostly multiple choice still?! The Brainbench is good as well a Snake noted. Perhaps better. This e-mail is from Reed Exhibitions (Gateway House, 28 The Quadrant, Richmond, Surrey, TW9 1DN, United Kingdom), a division of Reed Business, Registered in England, Number 678540. It contains information which is confidential and may also be privileged. It is for the exclusive use of the intended recipient(s). If you are not the intended recipient(s) please note that any form of distribution, copying or use of this communication or the information in it is strictly prohibited and may be unlawful. If you have received this communication in error please return it to the sender or call our switchboard on +44 (0) 20 89107910. The opinions expressed within this communication are not necessarily those expressed by Reed Exhibitions. Visit our website at http://www.reedexpo.com -Original Message- From: Larry Lyons To: CF-Talk Sent: Sat Dec 16 19:40:54 2006 Subject: Re: Certification Agreed, the certs are pretty much worthless in the real world. This topic come up on a regular basis, almost once every 2 or 3 months. Ever notice that generally those who say the CFMX certification is useless are those who boast that they don't have it? just a thought. ~| Create robust enterprise, web RIAs. Upgrade integrate Adobe Coldfusion MX7 with Flex 2 http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;56760587;14748456;a?http://www.adobe.com/products/coldfusion/flex2/?sdid=LVNU Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:264328 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4
RE: Certification
Well I have to say that I know someone who passed the Macromedia certification using random selection. He had never done a single line of CFML in his life. I know someone who won the lottery. That doesn't mean I think it's a fair bet that I will also win the lottery. That said, I don't think the CF certification is especially hard, and it does include quite a bit of non-CF stuff (HTML, basic CSS, JS, SQL). There are plenty of multiple-choice IT certs that are quite difficult, even if you're familiar with the subject matter. Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software http://www.figleaf.com/ Fig Leaf Software provides the highest caliber vendor-authorized instruction at our training centers in Washington DC, Atlanta, Chicago, Baltimore, Northern Virginia, or on-site at your location. Visit http://training.figleaf.com/ for more information! ~| Create robust enterprise, web RIAs. Upgrade integrate Adobe Coldfusion MX7 with Flex 2 http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;56760587;14748456;a?http://www.adobe.com/products/coldfusion/flex2/?sdid=LVNU Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:264329 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4
RE: Certification
You seem to be viewing Brainbench certs unfavorably because you can look up answers in the manual as you take the test. The Brainbench tests are intended to be open-book and the Adobe test is intended to be closed-book. So the questions you see on a Brainbench test are much harder than the questions on the Adobe test. Many of the questions cannot be answered without looking up the answer. That is what you are being tested on. Can you look up the correct answer or solve the problem within two minutes. It is not testing how well you can memorize a study guide. Brainbench certifications are unproctored, so you can't even tell if the applicant actually took it, can you? Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software http://www.figleaf.com/ Fig Leaf Software provides the highest caliber vendor-authorized instruction at our training centers in Washington DC, Atlanta, Chicago, Baltimore, Northern Virginia, or on-site at your location. Visit http://training.figleaf.com/ for more information! ~| Create robust enterprise, web RIAs. Upgrade integrate Adobe Coldfusion MX7 with Flex 2 http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;56760587;14748456;a?http://www.adobe.com/products/coldfusion/flex2/?sdid=LVNU Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:264330 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
RE: Certification
Well statistically speaking, you should be able to get 25% (if the answers have 4 choices) just by guessing. If you can eliminate some of the wrong answers from the questions using educated guessing. Unless the test is very well designed in such a way that it is not immediately apparent which questions are wrong, a person should easily be able to get a higher then 25% score. Russ -Original Message- From: Larry Lyons [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, December 18, 2006 10:38 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: Certification As for looking up the answer... As noted isn't the Adobe one multiple choice still? where the answer is right in front of you on every Q! As my old Physics teacher used to say, multiple choice is not a test.. a monkey with a stick could get a pass by stroking the page randomly... Your old physics teacher could stand to brush up on instructional design. Well-written multiple choice exams will not typically be passed by a monkey with a stick. Given that most universities do not require their instructors or professors to have any skills at teaching, I'm not surprised that he would have such an opinion. A well designed multiple choice test cannot be passed by random selection. Depending on the structure, even getting 25% using random responses would be surprising. regards, larry ~| Create robust enterprise, web RIAs. Upgrade integrate Adobe Coldfusion MX7 with Flex 2 http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;56760587;14748456;a?http://www.adobe.com/products/coldfusion/flex2/?sdid=LVNU Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:264331 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
RE: Certification
Some companies actually have the applicant take the brainbench exam as part of the interviewing process. In that case it is proctored, and if controlled properly, might give a decent indication of the candidate's skill set. Russ -Original Message- From: Dave Watts [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, December 18, 2006 1:59 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Certification You seem to be viewing Brainbench certs unfavorably because you can look up answers in the manual as you take the test. The Brainbench tests are intended to be open-book and the Adobe test is intended to be closed-book. So the questions you see on a Brainbench test are much harder than the questions on the Adobe test. Many of the questions cannot be answered without looking up the answer. That is what you are being tested on. Can you look up the correct answer or solve the problem within two minutes. It is not testing how well you can memorize a study guide. Brainbench certifications are unproctored, so you can't even tell if the applicant actually took it, can you? Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software http://www.figleaf.com/ Fig Leaf Software provides the highest caliber vendor-authorized instruction at our training centers in Washington DC, Atlanta, Chicago, Baltimore, Northern Virginia, or on-site at your location. Visit http://training.figleaf.com/ for more information! ~| Create robust enterprise, web RIAs. Upgrade integrate Adobe Coldfusion MX7 with Flex 2 http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;56760587;14748456;a?http://www.adobe.com/products/coldfusion/flex2/?sdid=LVNU Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:264332 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
RE: Certification
I don't know. I took a brainbench CF test back in the day and I remember a lot of questions that you can just paste into an cfm page, run it and get the answer... Russ IIRC the Brainbench test I took for CFMX that a recruiter requested I take a few months ago, one could no longer copy and paste the code. It was an image or something so that you would have to type it to do that trick. But I'm not sure. I do know, back in the day, I took the HTML test and got a something like a 4.19, something that was just a few hundredths below a master. I said to myself, Hey that can't be more then one question. So I took at again. And I got the same score. Took it again a couple of hours later and got the same score. I had to spend an evening studying and then I got a better score. I was impressed with the consistency of the testing. -- Ian Skinner Web Programmer BloodSource www.BloodSource.org Sacramento, CA - | 1 | | - Binary Soduko | | | - C code. C code run. Run code run. Please! - Cynthia Dunning Confidentiality Notice: This message including any attachments is for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and may contain confidential and privileged information. Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure or distribution is prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender and delete any copies of this message. ~| Create robust enterprise, web RIAs. Upgrade integrate Adobe Coldfusion MX7 with Flex 2 http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;56760587;14748456;a?http://www.adobe.com/products/coldfusion/flex2/?sdid=LVNU Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:264333 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4
RE: Certification
Brainbench certifications are unproctored, so you can't even tell if the applicant actually took it, can you? Other then there is nothing preventing someone from proctoring the test if they so desire. Just don't let the applicant take the test on their own. -- Ian Skinner Web Programmer BloodSource www.BloodSource.org Sacramento, CA - | 1 | | - Binary Soduko | | | - C code. C code run. Run code run. Please! - Cynthia Dunning Confidentiality Notice: This message including any attachments is for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and may contain confidential and privileged information. Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure or distribution is prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender and delete any copies of this message. ~| Create robust enterprise, web RIAs. Upgrade integrate Adobe Coldfusion MX7 with Flex 2 http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;56760587;14748456;a?http://www.adobe.com/products/coldfusion/flex2/?sdid=LVNU Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:264335 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4
RE: Certification
We've used Brainbench with some success. We have applicants take the tests on premise, so we proctor them ourselves. Rich Kroll Brainbench certifications are unproctored, so you can't even tell if the applicant actually took it, can you? Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software http://www.figleaf.com/ ~| Create robust enterprise, web RIAs. Upgrade integrate Adobe Coldfusion MX7 with Flex 2 http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;56760587;14748456;a?http://www.adobe.com/products/coldfusion/flex2/?sdid=LVNU Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:264336 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
RE: Certification
Some companies actually have the applicant take the brainbench exam as part of the interviewing process. In that case it is proctored, and if controlled properly, might give a decent indication of the candidate's skill set. That's exactly how we perform and use the tests. Rich Kroll ~| Create robust enterprise, web RIAs. Upgrade integrate Adobe Coldfusion MX7 with Flex 2 http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;56760587;14748456;a?http://www.adobe.com/products/coldfusion/flex2/?sdid=LVNU Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:264337 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4
Re: Certification
Hey all you highly certified (and thus extremely bright right)have a look at my thread on CFDOCUMENT hell and put some of that awesome power to work ;-) I'm about to start forcing page breaks after counting lines which is why I wanted to use CFDOCUMENT in the first friggin place (to handle pagination and section specific headers with ease). It forces a flippin page break after each section and if you have more than one header, the last one overwrites all others (regardless of being in a section or not)!! So put on those thinking caps on and refer to your exam study materials and be helpful and let this poor certification thread die alreadyhave mercy on the poor thing ;-) Cheers Bryan Stevenson B.Comm. VP Director of E-Commerce Development Electric Edge Systems Group Inc. phone: 250.480.0642 fax: 250.480.1264 cell: 250.920.8830 e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] web: www.electricedgesystems.com ~| Create robust enterprise, web RIAs. Upgrade integrate Adobe Coldfusion MX7 with Flex 2 http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;56760587;14748456;a?http://www.adobe.com/products/coldfusion/flex2/?sdid=LVNU Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:264338 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4
RE: Certification
Yes you can, you can view their results online. -Original Message- From: Dave Watts [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 18 December 2006 18:59 To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Certification You seem to be viewing Brainbench certs unfavorably because you can look up answers in the manual as you take the test. The Brainbench tests are intended to be open-book and the Adobe test is intended to be closed-book. So the questions you see on a Brainbench test are much harder than the questions on the Adobe test. Many of the questions cannot be answered without looking up the answer. That is what you are being tested on. Can you look up the correct answer or solve the problem within two minutes. It is not testing how well you can memorize a study guide. Brainbench certifications are unproctored, so you can't even tell if the applicant actually took it, can you? Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software http://www.figleaf.com/ Fig Leaf Software provides the highest caliber vendor-authorized instruction at our training centers in Washington DC, Atlanta, Chicago, Baltimore, Northern Virginia, or on-site at your location. Visit http://training.figleaf.com/ for more information! ~| Create robust enterprise, web RIAs. Upgrade integrate Adobe Coldfusion MX7 with Flex 2 http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;56760587;14748456;a?http://www.adobe.com/products/coldfusion/flex2/?sdid=LVNU Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:264340 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4
RE: Certification
Yes you can, you can view their results online. I believe Dave's point was that if you don't proctor the exam, you can tell if the person who took the test is the one applying for the position. Maybe he got his really good friend Ben Forta or somebody to take the examine for him. -- Ian Skinner Web Programmer BloodSource www.BloodSource.org Sacramento, CA - | 1 | | - Binary Soduko | | | - C code. C code run. Run code run. Please! - Cynthia Dunning Confidentiality Notice: This message including any attachments is for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and may contain confidential and privileged information. Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure or distribution is prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender and delete any copies of this message. ~| Create robust enterprise, web RIAs. Upgrade integrate Adobe Coldfusion MX7 with Flex 2 http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;56760587;14748456;a?http://www.adobe.com/products/coldfusion/flex2/?sdid=LVNU Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:264343 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4
RE: Certification
I think what he means is that there is no confirmation that the person whose certificate it is, is actually the person that took the test. -Original Message- From: Snake [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, December 18, 2006 2:27 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Certification Yes you can, you can view their results online. -Original Message- From: Dave Watts [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 18 December 2006 18:59 To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Certification You seem to be viewing Brainbench certs unfavorably because you can look up answers in the manual as you take the test. The Brainbench tests are intended to be open-book and the Adobe test is intended to be closed-book. So the questions you see on a Brainbench test are much harder than the questions on the Adobe test. Many of the questions cannot be answered without looking up the answer. That is what you are being tested on. Can you look up the correct answer or solve the problem within two minutes. It is not testing how well you can memorize a study guide. Brainbench certifications are unproctored, so you can't even tell if the applicant actually took it, can you? Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software http://www.figleaf.com/ Fig Leaf Software provides the highest caliber vendor-authorized instruction at our training centers in Washington DC, Atlanta, Chicago, Baltimore, Northern Virginia, or on-site at your location. Visit http://training.figleaf.com/ for more information! ~| Create robust enterprise, web RIAs. Upgrade integrate Adobe Coldfusion MX7 with Flex 2 http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;56760587;14748456;a?http://www.adobe.com/products/coldfusion/flex2/?sdid=LVNU Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:264345 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
RE: Certification
The public transcript shows the persons name, all the tests they have done, their scores, when they took the test etc. Russ -Original Message- From: Ian Skinner [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 18 December 2006 19:31 To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Certification Yes you can, you can view their results online. I believe Dave's point was that if you don't proctor the exam, you can tell if the person who took the test is the one applying for the position. Maybe he got his really good friend Ben Forta or somebody to take the examine for him. -- Ian Skinner Web Programmer BloodSource www.BloodSource.org Sacramento, CA - | 1 | | - Binary Soduko | | | - C code. C code run. Run code run. Please! - Cynthia Dunning Confidentiality Notice: This message including any attachments is for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and may contain confidential and privileged information. Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure or distribution is prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender and delete any copies of this message. ~| Create robust enterprise, web RIAs. Upgrade integrate Adobe Coldfusion MX7 with Flex 2 http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;56760587;14748456;a?http://www.adobe.com/products/coldfusion/flex2/?sdid=LVNU Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:264347 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
RE: Certification
The public transcript shows the persons name, all the tests they have done, their scores, when they took the test etc. Russ But there is NOT a webcam recording of the individual who was actually sitting at the keyboard taking the exam under that person's login. That is the point of proctoring. To make sure the person taking the test is who they say they are, and are following in rules in place. -- Ian Skinner Web Programmer BloodSource www.BloodSource.org Sacramento, CA - | 1 | | - Binary Soduko | | | - C code. C code run. Run code run. Please! - Cynthia Dunning Confidentiality Notice: This message including any attachments is for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and may contain confidential and privileged information. Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure or distribution is prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender and delete any copies of this message. ~| Create robust enterprise, web RIAs. Upgrade integrate Adobe Coldfusion MX7 with Flex 2 http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;56760587;14748456;a?http://www.adobe.com/products/coldfusion/flex2/?sdid=LVNU Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:264350 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4
RE: Certification
Yes, but what's stopping me from having my friend take the test for me? Russ -Original Message- From: Snake [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, December 18, 2006 2:54 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Certification The public transcript shows the persons name, all the tests they have done, their scores, when they took the test etc. Russ -Original Message- From: Ian Skinner [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 18 December 2006 19:31 To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Certification Yes you can, you can view their results online. I believe Dave's point was that if you don't proctor the exam, you can tell if the person who took the test is the one applying for the position. Maybe he got his really good friend Ben Forta or somebody to take the examine for him. -- Ian Skinner Web Programmer BloodSource www.BloodSource.org Sacramento, CA - | 1 | | - Binary Soduko | | | - C code. C code run. Run code run. Please! - Cynthia Dunning Confidentiality Notice: This message including any attachments is for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and may contain confidential and privileged information. Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure or distribution is prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender and delete any copies of this message. ~| Create robust enterprise, web RIAs. Upgrade integrate Adobe Coldfusion MX7 with Flex 2 http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;56760587;14748456;a?http://www.adobe.com/products/coldfusion/flex2/?sdid=LVNU Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:264362 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4
RE: Certification
Yes you can, you can view their results online. http://www.unc.edu/depts/jomc/academics/dri/idog.html I strongly advise you to avoid online dating. Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software http://www.figleaf.com/ Fig Leaf Software provides the highest caliber vendor-authorized instruction at our training centers in Washington DC, Atlanta, Chicago, Baltimore, Northern Virginia, or on-site at your location. Visit http://training.figleaf.com/ for more information! ~| Create robust enterprise, web RIAs. Upgrade integrate Adobe Coldfusion MX7 with Flex 2 http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;56760587;14748456;a?http://www.adobe.com/products/coldfusion/flex2/?sdid=LVNU Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:264371 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
RE: Certification
Well that much may be true, but if someone is idiotic enough to get someone else to take the test for them, I don't think they are going to keep the job very long. Russ -Original Message- From: Ian Skinner [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 18 December 2006 20:07 To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Certification The public transcript shows the persons name, all the tests they have done, their scores, when they took the test etc. Russ But there is NOT a webcam recording of the individual who was actually sitting at the keyboard taking the exam under that person's login. That is the point of proctoring. To make sure the person taking the test is who they say they are, and are following in rules in place. -- Ian Skinner Web Programmer BloodSource www.BloodSource.org Sacramento, CA - | 1 | | - Binary Soduko | | | - C code. C code run. Run code run. Please! - Cynthia Dunning Confidentiality Notice: This message including any attachments is for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and may contain confidential and privileged information. Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure or distribution is prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender and delete any copies of this message. ~| Create robust enterprise, web RIAs. Upgrade integrate Adobe Coldfusion MX7 with Flex 2 http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;56760587;14748456;a?http://www.adobe.com/products/coldfusion/flex2/?sdid=LVNU Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:264390 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
RE: Certification
No problem Dave, I'm a married man :-) -Original Message- From: Dave Watts [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 18 December 2006 20:57 To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Certification Yes you can, you can view their results online. http://www.unc.edu/depts/jomc/academics/dri/idog.html I strongly advise you to avoid online dating. Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software http://www.figleaf.com/ Fig Leaf Software provides the highest caliber vendor-authorized instruction at our training centers in Washington DC, Atlanta, Chicago, Baltimore, Northern Virginia, or on-site at your location. Visit http://training.figleaf.com/ for more information! ~| Create robust enterprise, web RIAs. Upgrade integrate Adobe Coldfusion MX7 with Flex 2 http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;56760587;14748456;a?http://www.adobe.com/products/coldfusion/flex2/?sdid=LVNU Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:264391 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
Re: Certification
I've been too busy with CF work to notice (or to get a Certification). On 12/17/06, Larry Lyons [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Agreed, the certs are pretty much worthless in the real world. This topic come up on a regular basis, almost once every 2 or 3 months. Ever notice that generally those who say the CFMX certification is useless are those who boast that they don't have it? just a thought. ~| Create robust enterprise, web RIAs. Upgrade integrate Adobe Coldfusion MX7 with Flex 2 http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;56760587;14748456;a?http://www.adobe.com/products/coldfusion/flex2/?sdid=LVNU Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:264255 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4
RE: Certification
I have an online test I give candidates that has real world coding questions, like 1. write a simple web service 2. write some SQL that does an inner join between the following tables 3. what is the error in the following code And I can say that I have never once had someone who is certified get a good score. The best scores I have had were from people who were not certified, and were generally self taught and often didn't have a great deal of prior experience. Although to be fair, some employers do still put some merit on it, I do see jobs asking for it now and then. Its cheap enough to get certified, and it wont do you any harm, so you may as well do it. But don't kid yourself into thinking your chances of getting a great job with a higher salary will drastically improve having the cert or you may be disapointed. Eventually companies do figure out that it makes no difference if someone has a cert, it generally doesn't make them any better then someone who doesn't have it and doesn't help their interview process either, so I would imagine they only ask for certs the first time they are interviewing and don't know better. Russ -Original Message- From: Robertson-Ravo, Neil (RX) [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 17 December 2006 07:38 To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: Certification Not really, as the fact they are worthless (not useless) is no doubt the reason they do not take them. In the professional world whether you are ColdFusion certified or not means nada - certainly from what I have seen in the UK. I mean, isn't it mostly multiple choice still?! The Brainbench is good as well a Snake noted. Perhaps better. This e-mail is from Reed Exhibitions (Gateway House, 28 The Quadrant, Richmond, Surrey, TW9 1DN, United Kingdom), a division of Reed Business, Registered in England, Number 678540. It contains information which is confidential and may also be privileged. It is for the exclusive use of the intended recipient(s). If you are not the intended recipient(s) please note that any form of distribution, copying or use of this communication or the information in it is strictly prohibited and may be unlawful. If you have received this communication in error please return it to the sender or call our switchboard on +44 (0) 20 89107910. The opinions expressed within this communication are not necessarily those expressed by Reed Exhibitions. Visit our website at http://www.reedexpo.com -Original Message- From: Larry Lyons To: CF-Talk Sent: Sat Dec 16 19:40:54 2006 Subject: Re: Certification Agreed, the certs are pretty much worthless in the real world. This topic come up on a regular basis, almost once every 2 or 3 months. Ever notice that generally those who say the CFMX certification is useless are those who boast that they don't have it? just a thought. ~| Create robust enterprise, web RIAs. Upgrade integrate Adobe Coldfusion MX7 with Flex 2 http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;56760587;14748456;a?http://www.adobe.com/products/coldfusion/flex2/?sdid=LVNU Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:264256 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
RE: Certification
Russ, You want to share that test? We've had many times where we needed to hire a contractor and when they got here even though they interviewed well and had good cf resumes, the didn't know the even the simple things. It seems a lot of temp agencies (for lack of a better term) coach their contractors on how to bs their way in. Steve -Original Message- From: Snake [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, December 17, 2006 6:00 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Certification I have an online test I give candidates that has real world coding questions, like 1. write a simple web service 2. write some SQL that does an inner join between the following tables 3. what is the error in the following code And I can say that I have never once had someone who is certified get a good score. The best scores I have had were from people who were not certified, and were generally self taught and often didn't have a great deal of prior experience. Although to be fair, some employers do still put some merit on it, I do see jobs asking for it now and then. Its cheap enough to get certified, and it wont do you any harm, so you may as well do it. But don't kid yourself into thinking your chances of getting a great job with a higher salary will drastically improve having the cert or you may be disapointed. Eventually companies do figure out that it makes no difference if someone has a cert, it generally doesn't make them any better then someone who doesn't have it and doesn't help their interview process either, so I would imagine they only ask for certs the first time they are interviewing and don't know better. Russ -Original Message- From: Robertson-Ravo, Neil (RX) [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 17 December 2006 07:38 To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: Certification Not really, as the fact they are worthless (not useless) is no doubt the reason they do not take them. In the professional world whether you are ColdFusion certified or not means nada - certainly from what I have seen in the UK. I mean, isn't it mostly multiple choice still?! The Brainbench is good as well a Snake noted. Perhaps better. This e-mail is from Reed Exhibitions (Gateway House, 28 The Quadrant, Richmond, Surrey, TW9 1DN, United Kingdom), a division of Reed Business, Registered in England, Number 678540. It contains information which is confidential and may also be privileged. It is for the exclusive use of the intended recipient(s). If you are not the intended recipient(s) please note that any form of distribution, copying or use of this communication or the information in it is strictly prohibited and may be unlawful. If you have received this communication in error please return it to the sender or call our switchboard on +44 (0) 20 89107910. The opinions expressed within this communication are not necessarily those expressed by Reed Exhibitions. Visit our website at http://www.reedexpo.com -Original Message- From: Larry Lyons To: CF-Talk Sent: Sat Dec 16 19:40:54 2006 Subject: Re: Certification Agreed, the certs are pretty much worthless in the real world. This topic come up on a regular basis, almost once every 2 or 3 months. Ever notice that generally those who say the CFMX certification is useless are those who boast that they don't have it? just a thought. ~| Create robust enterprise, web RIAs. Upgrade integrate Adobe Coldfusion MX7 with Flex 2 http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;56760587;14748456;a?http://www.adobe.com/products/coldfusion/flex2/?sdid=LVNU Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:264257 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
RE: Certification
If you email me offline I'll send you a copy. Russ -Original Message- From: DURETTE, STEVEN J (ASI-AIT) [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 17 December 2006 12:04 To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Certification Russ, You want to share that test? We've had many times where we needed to hire a contractor and when they got here even though they interviewed well and had good cf resumes, the didn't know the even the simple things. It seems a lot of temp agencies (for lack of a better term) coach their contractors on how to bs their way in. Steve -Original Message- From: Snake [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, December 17, 2006 6:00 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Certification I have an online test I give candidates that has real world coding questions, like 1. write a simple web service 2. write some SQL that does an inner join between the following tables 3. what is the error in the following code And I can say that I have never once had someone who is certified get a good score. The best scores I have had were from people who were not certified, and were generally self taught and often didn't have a great deal of prior experience. Although to be fair, some employers do still put some merit on it, I do see jobs asking for it now and then. Its cheap enough to get certified, and it wont do you any harm, so you may as well do it. But don't kid yourself into thinking your chances of getting a great job with a higher salary will drastically improve having the cert or you may be disapointed. Eventually companies do figure out that it makes no difference if someone has a cert, it generally doesn't make them any better then someone who doesn't have it and doesn't help their interview process either, so I would imagine they only ask for certs the first time they are interviewing and don't know better. Russ -Original Message- From: Robertson-Ravo, Neil (RX) [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 17 December 2006 07:38 To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: Certification Not really, as the fact they are worthless (not useless) is no doubt the reason they do not take them. In the professional world whether you are ColdFusion certified or not means nada - certainly from what I have seen in the UK. I mean, isn't it mostly multiple choice still?! The Brainbench is good as well a Snake noted. Perhaps better. This e-mail is from Reed Exhibitions (Gateway House, 28 The Quadrant, Richmond, Surrey, TW9 1DN, United Kingdom), a division of Reed Business, Registered in England, Number 678540. It contains information which is confidential and may also be privileged. It is for the exclusive use of the intended recipient(s). If you are not the intended recipient(s) please note that any form of distribution, copying or use of this communication or the information in it is strictly prohibited and may be unlawful. If you have received this communication in error please return it to the sender or call our switchboard on +44 (0) 20 89107910. The opinions expressed within this communication are not necessarily those expressed by Reed Exhibitions. Visit our website at http://www.reedexpo.com -Original Message- From: Larry Lyons To: CF-Talk Sent: Sat Dec 16 19:40:54 2006 Subject: Re: Certification Agreed, the certs are pretty much worthless in the real world. This topic come up on a regular basis, almost once every 2 or 3 months. Ever notice that generally those who say the CFMX certification is useless are those who boast that they don't have it? just a thought. ~| Create robust enterprise, web RIAs. Upgrade integrate Adobe Coldfusion MX7 with Flex 2 http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;56760587;14748456;a?http://www.adobe.com/products/coldfusion/flex2/?sdid=LVNU Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:264258 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4
Re: Certification
Yeah, the agencies do fluff CV up a little.. We had a few advanced contractors who didn't even know whan an array or structure was. This e-mail is from Reed Exhibitions (Gateway House, 28 The Quadrant, Richmond, Surrey, TW9 1DN, United Kingdom), a division of Reed Business, Registered in England, Number 678540. It contains information which is confidential and may also be privileged. It is for the exclusive use of the intended recipient(s). If you are not the intended recipient(s) please note that any form of distribution, copying or use of this communication or the information in it is strictly prohibited and may be unlawful. If you have received this communication in error please return it to the sender or call our switchboard on +44 (0) 20 89107910. The opinions expressed within this communication are not necessarily those expressed by Reed Exhibitions. Visit our website at http://www.reedexpo.com -Original Message- From: Snake To: CF-Talk Sent: Sun Dec 17 12:42:51 2006 Subject: RE: Certification If you email me offline I'll send you a copy. Russ -Original Message- From: DURETTE, STEVEN J (ASI-AIT) [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 17 December 2006 12:04 To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Certification Russ, You want to share that test? We've had many times where we needed to hire a contractor and when they got here even though they interviewed well and had good cf resumes, the didn't know the even the simple things. It seems a lot of temp agencies (for lack of a better term) coach their contractors on how to bs their way in. Steve -Original Message- From: Snake [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, December 17, 2006 6:00 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Certification I have an online test I give candidates that has real world coding questions, like 1. write a simple web service 2. write some SQL that does an inner join between the following tables 3. what is the error in the following code And I can say that I have never once had someone who is certified get a good score. The best scores I have had were from people who were not certified, and were generally self taught and often didn't have a great deal of prior experience. Although to be fair, some employers do still put some merit on it, I do see jobs asking for it now and then. Its cheap enough to get certified, and it wont do you any harm, so you may as well do it. But don't kid yourself into thinking your chances of getting a great job with a higher salary will drastically improve having the cert or you may be disapointed. Eventually companies do figure out that it makes no difference if someone has a cert, it generally doesn't make them any better then someone who doesn't have it and doesn't help their interview process either, so I would imagine they only ask for certs the first time they are interviewing and don't know better. Russ -Original Message- From: Robertson-Ravo, Neil (RX) [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 17 December 2006 07:38 To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: Certification Not really, as the fact they are worthless (not useless) is no doubt the reason they do not take them. In the professional world whether you are ColdFusion certified or not means nada - certainly from what I have seen in the UK. I mean, isn't it mostly multiple choice still?! The Brainbench is good as well a Snake noted. Perhaps better. This e-mail is from Reed Exhibitions (Gateway House, 28 The Quadrant, Richmond, Surrey, TW9 1DN, United Kingdom), a division of Reed Business, Registered in England, Number 678540. It contains information which is confidential and may also be privileged. It is for the exclusive use of the intended recipient(s). If you are not the intended recipient(s) please note that any form of distribution, copying or use of this communication or the information in it is strictly prohibited and may be unlawful. If you have received this communication in error please return it to the sender or call our switchboard on +44 (0) 20 89107910. The opinions expressed within this communication are not necessarily those expressed by Reed Exhibitions. Visit our website at http://www.reedexpo.com -Original Message- From: Larry Lyons To: CF-Talk Sent: Sat Dec 16 19:40:54 2006 Subject: Re: Certification Agreed, the certs are pretty much worthless in the real world. This topic come up on a regular basis, almost once every 2 or 3 months. Ever notice that generally those who say the CFMX certification is useless are those who boast that they don't have it? just a thought. ~| Create robust enterprise, web RIAs. Upgrade integrate Adobe Coldfusion MX7 with Flex 2 http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;56760587;14748456;a?http://www.adobe.com/products/coldfusion/flex2/?sdid=LVNU Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:264259 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF
Re: Certification
In the staffing portion of my company, we do not pay any attention to Brainbench certs. You can look every answer up as you take the test. Many of our clients require the developers we send out to be CF certified by Adobe. Just my 2c. Robertson-Ravo, Neil (RX) wrote: Not really, as the fact they are worthless (not useless) is no doubt the reason they do not take them. In the professional world whether you are ColdFusion certified or not means nada - certainly from what I have seen in the UK. I mean, isn't it mostly multiple choice still?! The Brainbench is good as well a Snake noted. Perhaps better. This e-mail is from Reed Exhibitions (Gateway House, 28 The Quadrant, Richmond, Surrey, TW9 1DN, United Kingdom), a division of Reed Business, Registered in England, Number 678540. It contains information which is confidential and may also be privileged. It is for the exclusive use of the intended recipient(s). If you are not the intended recipient(s) please note that any form of distribution, copying or use of this communication or the information in it is strictly prohibited and may be unlawful. If you have received this communication in error please return it to the sender or call our switchboard on +44 (0) 20 89107910. The opinions expressed within this communication are not necessarily those expressed by Reed Exhibitions. Visit our website at http://www.reedexpo.com -Original Message- From: Larry Lyons To: CF-Talk Sent: Sat Dec 16 19:40:54 2006 Subject: Re: Certification Agreed, the certs are pretty much worthless in the real world. This topic come up on a regular basis, almost once every 2 or 3 months. Ever notice that generally those who say the CFMX certification is useless are those who boast that they don't have it? just a thought. ~| Create robust enterprise, web RIAs. Upgrade integrate Adobe Coldfusion MX7 with Flex 2 http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;56760587;14748456;a?http://www.adobe.com/products/coldfusion/flex2/?sdid=LVNU Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:264269 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4
Re: Certification
Not really a marker.. As going by that surely you should also require them to be Microsoft certified etc.. As for looking up the answer... As noted isn't the Adobe one multiple choice still? where the answer is right in front of you on every Q! As my old Physics teacher used to say, multiple choice is not a test.. a monkey with a stick could get a pass by stroking the page randomly... :-) This e-mail is from Reed Exhibitions (Gateway House, 28 The Quadrant, Richmond, Surrey, TW9 1DN, United Kingdom), a division of Reed Business, Registered in England, Number 678540. It contains information which is confidential and may also be privileged. It is for the exclusive use of the intended recipient(s). If you are not the intended recipient(s) please note that any form of distribution, copying or use of this communication or the information in it is strictly prohibited and may be unlawful. If you have received this communication in error please return it to the sender or call our switchboard on +44 (0) 20 89107910. The opinions expressed within this communication are not necessarily those expressed by Reed Exhibitions. Visit our website at http://www.reedexpo.com -Original Message- From: Nicholas M Tunney To: CF-Talk Sent: Sun Dec 17 22:10:14 2006 Subject: Re: Certification In the staffing portion of my company, we do not pay any attention to Brainbench certs. You can look every answer up as you take the test. Many of our clients require the developers we send out to be CF certified by Adobe. Just my 2c. Robertson-Ravo, Neil (RX) wrote: Not really, as the fact they are worthless (not useless) is no doubt the reason they do not take them. In the professional world whether you are ColdFusion certified or not means nada - certainly from what I have seen in the UK. I mean, isn't it mostly multiple choice still?! The Brainbench is good as well a Snake noted. Perhaps better. This e-mail is from Reed Exhibitions (Gateway House, 28 The Quadrant, Richmond, Surrey, TW9 1DN, United Kingdom), a division of Reed Business, Registered in England, Number 678540. It contains information which is confidential and may also be privileged. It is for the exclusive use of the intended recipient(s). If you are not the intended recipient(s) please note that any form of distribution, copying or use of this communication or the information in it is strictly prohibited and may be unlawful. If you have received this communication in error please return it to the sender or call our switchboard on +44 (0) 20 89107910. The opinions expressed within this communication are not necessarily those expressed by Reed Exhibitions. Visit our website at http://www.reedexpo.com -Original Message- From: Larry Lyons To: CF-Talk Sent: Sat Dec 16 19:40:54 2006 Subject: Re: Certification Agreed, the certs are pretty much worthless in the real world. This topic come up on a regular basis, almost once every 2 or 3 months. Ever notice that generally those who say the CFMX certification is useless are those who boast that they don't have it? just a thought. ~| Create robust enterprise, web RIAs. Upgrade integrate Adobe Coldfusion MX7 with Flex 2 http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;56760587;14748456;a?http://www.adobe.com/products/coldfusion/flex2/?sdid=LVNU Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:264270 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4
Re: Certification
These are client requests, not our own, and many clients do request certifications. I do feel that the CF certification should be building pieces of architecture, but I'm sure it isn't up to me ;). Regardless, all internal hires are put through a coding test. Robertson-Ravo, Neil (RX) wrote: Not really a marker.. As going by that surely you should also require them to be Microsoft certified etc.. As for looking up the answer... As noted isn't the Adobe one multiple choice still? where the answer is right in front of you on every Q! As my old Physics teacher used to say, multiple choice is not a test.. a monkey with a stick could get a pass by stroking the page randomly... :-) This e-mail is from Reed Exhibitions (Gateway House, 28 The Quadrant, Richmond, Surrey, TW9 1DN, United Kingdom), a division of Reed Business, Registered in England, Number 678540. It contains information which is confidential and may also be privileged. It is for the exclusive use of the intended recipient(s). If you are not the intended recipient(s) please note that any form of distribution, copying or use of this communication or the information in it is strictly prohibited and may be unlawful. If you have received this communication in error please return it to the sender or call our switchboard on +44 (0) 20 89107910. The opinions expressed within this communication are not necessarily those expressed by Reed Exhibitions. Visit our website at http://www.reedexpo.com -Original Message- From: Nicholas M Tunney To: CF-Talk Sent: Sun Dec 17 22:10:14 2006 Subject: Re: Certification In the staffing portion of my company, we do not pay any attention to Brainbench certs. You can look every answer up as you take the test. Many of our clients require the developers we send out to be CF certified by Adobe. Just my 2c. Robertson-Ravo, Neil (RX) wrote: Not really, as the fact they are worthless (not useless) is no doubt the reason they do not take them. In the professional world whether you are ColdFusion certified or not means nada - certainly from what I have seen in the UK. I mean, isn't it mostly multiple choice still?! The Brainbench is good as well a Snake noted. Perhaps better. This e-mail is from Reed Exhibitions (Gateway House, 28 The Quadrant, Richmond, Surrey, TW9 1DN, United Kingdom), a division of Reed Business, Registered in England, Number 678540. It contains information which is confidential and may also be privileged. It is for the exclusive use of the intended recipient(s). If you are not the intended recipient(s) please note that any form of distribution, copying or use of this communication or the information in it is strictly prohibited and may be unlawful. If you have received this communication in error please return it to the sender or call our switchboard on +44 (0) 20 89107910. The opinions expressed within this communication are not necessarily those expressed by Reed Exhibitions. Visit our website at http://www.reedexpo.com -Original Message- From: Larry Lyons To: CF-Talk Sent: Sat Dec 16 19:40:54 2006 Subject: Re: Certification Agreed, the certs are pretty much worthless in the real world. This topic come up on a regular basis, almost once every 2 or 3 months. Ever notice that generally those who say the CFMX certification is useless are those who boast that they don't have it? just a thought. ~| Create robust enterprise, web RIAs. Upgrade integrate Adobe Coldfusion MX7 with Flex 2 http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;56760587;14748456;a?http://www.adobe.com/products/coldfusion/flex2/?sdid=LVNU Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:264274 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
RE: Certification
Not really a marker.. As going by that surely you should also require them to be Microsoft certified etc.. Why should CF developers be Microsoft certified? As for looking up the answer... As noted isn't the Adobe one multiple choice still? where the answer is right in front of you on every Q! As my old Physics teacher used to say, multiple choice is not a test.. a monkey with a stick could get a pass by stroking the page randomly... Your old physics teacher could stand to brush up on instructional design. Well-written multiple choice exams will not typically be passed by a monkey with a stick. Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software http://www.figleaf.com/ Fig Leaf Software provides the highest caliber vendor-authorized instruction at our training centers in Washington DC, Atlanta, Chicago, Baltimore, Northern Virginia, or on-site at your location. Visit http://training.figleaf.com/ for more information! ~| Create robust enterprise, web RIAs. Upgrade integrate Adobe Coldfusion MX7 with Flex 2 http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;56760587;14748456;a?http://www.adobe.com/products/coldfusion/flex2/?sdid=LVNU Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:264282 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
Re: Certification
I think that is the point. It really doesn't mean a whole lot, and it should not be an indicator of how much you know (or do not), as Snake noted, it is not exactly a test, not like we took at Uni! I think if you took it now you would pass no worries. If I were were you, I would save your money. This e-mail is from Reed Exhibitions (Gateway House, 28 The Quadrant, Richmond, Surrey, TW9 1DN, United Kingdom), a division of Reed Business, Registered in England, Number 678540. It contains information which is confidential and may also be privileged. It is for the exclusive use of the intended recipient(s). If you are not the intended recipient(s) please note that any form of distribution, copying or use of this communication or the information in it is strictly prohibited and may be unlawful. If you have received this communication in error please return it to the sender or call our switchboard on +44 (0) 20 89107910. The opinions expressed within this communication are not necessarily those expressed by Reed Exhibitions. Visit our website at http://www.reedexpo.com -Original Message- From: Neil Middleton To: CF-Talk Sent: Sat Dec 16 01:51:20 2006 Subject: Re: Certification To be honest, I am looking at certification mainly because it's a nice easy way of showing you aren't just mentioning it on your CV, but you do have at least a decent understanding of the topic. Something that people (esp contractors) my find quite useful to have. Neil On 12/15/06, Snake [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Maybe for some people. -Original Message- From: Michael Traher [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 15 December 2006 23:18 To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: Certification to improve your skills and knowledge perhaps? The process of preparing for the test forces you to look into all the nooks and crannies of CF. I actually think its a good thing to do when you are first learning CF or maybe have 1 or 2 years under your belt. On 12/15/06, Snake [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: snip If you can't pass the test with your existing skills and knowledge, then what is the point in doing it? ~| Create robust enterprise, web RIAs. Upgrade integrate Adobe Coldfusion MX7 with Flex 2 http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;56760587;14748456;a?http://www.adobe.com/products/coldfusion/flex2/?sdid=LVNU Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:264241 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
RE: Certification
If you just want a cert to put on your CV to show off to employers and bolster your ego try www.brainbench.com Their CF certification is about the same, and your score will be listed/ranked as well, so you can even boast about your ranking if you like. -- Russ Michaels In the top 3 coldfusion developers in the UK according to brainbench.com :-) -Original Message- From: Robertson-Ravo, Neil (RX) [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 16 December 2006 08:08 To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: Certification I think that is the point. It really doesn't mean a whole lot, and it should not be an indicator of how much you know (or do not), as Snake noted, it is not exactly a test, not like we took at Uni! I think if you took it now you would pass no worries. If I were were you, I would save your money. This e-mail is from Reed Exhibitions (Gateway House, 28 The Quadrant, Richmond, Surrey, TW9 1DN, United Kingdom), a division of Reed Business, Registered in England, Number 678540. It contains information which is confidential and may also be privileged. It is for the exclusive use of the intended recipient(s). If you are not the intended recipient(s) please note that any form of distribution, copying or use of this communication or the information in it is strictly prohibited and may be unlawful. If you have received this communication in error please return it to the sender or call our switchboard on +44 (0) 20 89107910. The opinions expressed within this communication are not necessarily those expressed by Reed Exhibitions. Visit our website at http://www.reedexpo.com -Original Message- From: Neil Middleton To: CF-Talk Sent: Sat Dec 16 01:51:20 2006 Subject: Re: Certification To be honest, I am looking at certification mainly because it's a nice easy way of showing you aren't just mentioning it on your CV, but you do have at least a decent understanding of the topic. Something that people (esp contractors) my find quite useful to have. Neil On 12/15/06, Snake [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Maybe for some people. -Original Message- From: Michael Traher [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 15 December 2006 23:18 To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: Certification to improve your skills and knowledge perhaps? The process of preparing for the test forces you to look into all the nooks and crannies of CF. I actually think its a good thing to do when you are first learning CF or maybe have 1 or 2 years under your belt. On 12/15/06, Snake [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: snip If you can't pass the test with your existing skills and knowledge, then what is the point in doing it? ~| Create robust enterprise, web RIAs. Upgrade integrate Adobe Coldfusion MX7 with Flex 2 http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;56760587;14748456;a?http://www.adobe.com/products/coldfusion/flex2/?sdid=LVNU Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:264243 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4
Re: Certification
Agreed, the certs are pretty much worthless in the real world. This topic come up on a regular basis, almost once every 2 or 3 months. Ever notice that generally those who say the CFMX certification is useless are those who boast that they don't have it? just a thought. ~| Create robust enterprise, web RIAs. Upgrade integrate Adobe Coldfusion MX7 with Flex 2 http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;56760587;14748456;a?http://www.adobe.com/products/coldfusion/flex2/?sdid=LVNU Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:264251 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4
Re: Certification
Not really, as the fact they are worthless (not useless) is no doubt the reason they do not take them. In the professional world whether you are ColdFusion certified or not means nada - certainly from what I have seen in the UK. I mean, isn't it mostly multiple choice still?! The Brainbench is good as well a Snake noted. Perhaps better. This e-mail is from Reed Exhibitions (Gateway House, 28 The Quadrant, Richmond, Surrey, TW9 1DN, United Kingdom), a division of Reed Business, Registered in England, Number 678540. It contains information which is confidential and may also be privileged. It is for the exclusive use of the intended recipient(s). If you are not the intended recipient(s) please note that any form of distribution, copying or use of this communication or the information in it is strictly prohibited and may be unlawful. If you have received this communication in error please return it to the sender or call our switchboard on +44 (0) 20 89107910. The opinions expressed within this communication are not necessarily those expressed by Reed Exhibitions. Visit our website at http://www.reedexpo.com -Original Message- From: Larry Lyons To: CF-Talk Sent: Sat Dec 16 19:40:54 2006 Subject: Re: Certification Agreed, the certs are pretty much worthless in the real world. This topic come up on a regular basis, almost once every 2 or 3 months. Ever notice that generally those who say the CFMX certification is useless are those who boast that they don't have it? just a thought. ~| Create robust enterprise, web RIAs. Upgrade integrate Adobe Coldfusion MX7 with Flex 2 http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;56760587;14748456;a?http://www.adobe.com/products/coldfusion/flex2/?sdid=LVNU Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:264254 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4
RE: Certification
Go to http://www.centrasoft.com/cfmxexambusterorderinfo.cfm. -Original Message- From: Neil Middleton [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, December 15, 2006 10:36 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: Certification Does anyone have any opinions on the best ways to prepare for the CFMX certification exams? -- Neil Middleton Visit feed-squirrel.com ~| Create robust enterprise, web RIAs. Upgrade integrate Adobe Coldfusion MX7 with Flex 2 http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;56760587;14748456;a?http://www.adobe.com/products/coldfusion/flex2/?sdid=LVNU Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:264123 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
Re: Certification
On 12/15/06, Neil Middleton [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Does anyone have any opinions on the best ways to prepare for the CFMX certification exams? forta's cfmx exam guide book centrasoft's cf exam buster software only 2 tools you'll need. -- Charlie Griefer ...All the world shall be your enemy, Prince with a Thousand Enemies, and whenever they catch you, they will kill you. But first they must catch you, digger, listener, runner, prince with a swift warning. Be cunning and full of tricks and your people shall never be destroyed. ~| Create robust enterprise, web RIAs. Upgrade integrate Adobe Coldfusion MX7 with Flex 2 http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;56760587;14748456;a?http://www.adobe.com/products/coldfusion/flex2/?sdid=LVNU Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:264124 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
Re: Certification
I'll second that. Excellent bit of software. On 15/12/06, Ray Champagne [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Go to http://www.centrasoft.com/cfmxexambusterorderinfo.cfm. -Original Message- From: Neil Middleton [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, December 15, 2006 10:36 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: Certification Does anyone have any opinions on the best ways to prepare for the CFMX certification exams? -- Neil Middleton Visit feed-squirrel.com ~| Create robust enterprise, web RIAs. Upgrade integrate Adobe Coldfusion MX7 with Flex 2 http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;56760587;14748456;a?http://www.adobe.com/products/coldfusion/flex2/?sdid=LVNU Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:264125 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
RE: Certification
I'll second the CFMX Exam Buster software. It's actually much harder than the actual test. !//-- andy matthews web developer certified advanced coldfusion programmer ICGLink, Inc. [EMAIL PROTECTED] 615.370.1530 x737 --//- -Original Message- From: Neil Middleton [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, December 15, 2006 9:36 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: Certification Does anyone have any opinions on the best ways to prepare for the CFMX certification exams? -- Neil Middleton Visit feed-squirrel.com ~| Create robust enterprise, web RIAs. Upgrade integrate Adobe Coldfusion MX7 with Flex 2 http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;56760587;14748456;a?http://www.adobe.com/products/coldfusion/flex2/?sdid=LVNU Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:264129 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
RE: Certification
Make sure you know how to write CFML. You could cheat like most people do and use the certification study guide. I personally don't think the certification is worth the paper it is printed on. I know several people who got Advanced ColdFusion developers certifications, when in reality they are nothing of the sort. Russ -Original Message- From: Neil Middleton [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 15 December 2006 15:36 To: CF-Talk Subject: Certification Does anyone have any opinions on the best ways to prepare for the CFMX certification exams? -- Neil Middleton Visit feed-squirrel.com ~| Create robust enterprise, web RIAs. Upgrade integrate Adobe Coldfusion MX7 with Flex 2 http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;56760587;14748456;a?http://www.adobe.com/products/coldfusion/flex2/?sdid=LVNU Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:264141 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
Re: Certification
Agreed, the certs are pretty much worthless in the real world. This e-mail is from Reed Exhibitions (Gateway House, 28 The Quadrant, Richmond, Surrey, TW9 1DN, United Kingdom), a division of Reed Business, Registered in England, Number 678540. It contains information which is confidential and may also be privileged. It is for the exclusive use of the intended recipient(s). If you are not the intended recipient(s) please note that any form of distribution, copying or use of this communication or the information in it is strictly prohibited and may be unlawful. If you have received this communication in error please return it to the sender or call our switchboard on +44 (0) 20 89107910. The opinions expressed within this communication are not necessarily those expressed by Reed Exhibitions. Visit our website at http://www.reedexpo.com -Original Message- From: Snake To: CF-Talk Sent: Fri Dec 15 16:56:38 2006 Subject: RE: Certification Make sure you know how to write CFML. You could cheat like most people do and use the certification study guide. I personally don't think the certification is worth the paper it is printed on. I know several people who got Advanced ColdFusion developers certifications, when in reality they are nothing of the sort. Russ -Original Message- From: Neil Middleton [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 15 December 2006 15:36 To: CF-Talk Subject: Certification Does anyone have any opinions on the best ways to prepare for the CFMX certification exams? -- Neil Middleton Visit feed-squirrel.com ~| Create robust enterprise, web RIAs. Upgrade integrate Adobe Coldfusion MX7 with Flex 2 http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;56760587;14748456;a?http://www.adobe.com/products/coldfusion/flex2/?sdid=LVNU Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:264144 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
RE: Certification
What are you talking about?!?!??!?! The ladies love the certification :) Every time I walk into a bar it's always like Ooooh, tell me again how CFHttp works? It's so exciting when you talk about parsing CSV files at a given URL. On really long, I opt not to even wear my Ask Me About My CF Cert T-shirt cause I just don't want to have to deal with the groupies. Joking aside though, the Book and the software are most excellent. Even if you are not caring so much about the cert, the book and practice tests really go a LONG way in pointing out how much you don't realize that you don't know about CF. .. Ben Nadel Certified Advanced ColdFusion MX7 Developer www.bennadel.com Need ColdFusion Help? www.bennadel.com/ask-ben/ -Original Message- From: Robertson-Ravo, Neil (RX) [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, December 15, 2006 11:54 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: Certification Agreed, the certs are pretty much worthless in the real world. This e-mail is from Reed Exhibitions (Gateway House, 28 The Quadrant, Richmond, Surrey, TW9 1DN, United Kingdom), a division of Reed Business, Registered in England, Number 678540. It contains information which is confidential and may also be privileged. It is for the exclusive use of the intended recipient(s). If you are not the intended recipient(s) please note that any form of distribution, copying or use of this communication or the information in it is strictly prohibited and may be unlawful. If you have received this communication in error please return it to the sender or call our switchboard on +44 (0) 20 89107910. The opinions expressed within this communication are not necessarily those expressed by Reed Exhibitions. Visit our website at http://www.reedexpo.com -Original Message- From: Snake To: CF-Talk Sent: Fri Dec 15 16:56:38 2006 Subject: RE: Certification Make sure you know how to write CFML. You could cheat like most people do and use the certification study guide. I personally don't think the certification is worth the paper it is printed on. I know several people who got Advanced ColdFusion developers certifications, when in reality they are nothing of the sort. Russ -Original Message- From: Neil Middleton [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 15 December 2006 15:36 To: CF-Talk Subject: Certification Does anyone have any opinions on the best ways to prepare for the CFMX certification exams? -- Neil Middleton Visit feed-squirrel.com ~| Create robust enterprise, web RIAs. Upgrade integrate Adobe Coldfusion MX7 with Flex 2 http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;56760587;14748456;a?http://www.adobe.com/products/coldfusion/flex2/?sdid=LVNU Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:264148 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4
Re: Certification
Lol, I would seriously have to question the kinda of bars you frequent... :) This e-mail is from Reed Exhibitions (Gateway House, 28 The Quadrant, Richmond, Surrey, TW9 1DN, United Kingdom), a division of Reed Business, Registered in England, Number 678540. It contains information which is confidential and may also be privileged. It is for the exclusive use of the intended recipient(s). If you are not the intended recipient(s) please note that any form of distribution, copying or use of this communication or the information in it is strictly prohibited and may be unlawful. If you have received this communication in error please return it to the sender or call our switchboard on +44 (0) 20 89107910. The opinions expressed within this communication are not necessarily those expressed by Reed Exhibitions. Visit our website at http://www.reedexpo.com -Original Message- From: Ben Nadel To: CF-Talk Sent: Fri Dec 15 17:39:46 2006 Subject: RE: Certification What are you talking about?!?!??!?! The ladies love the certification :) Every time I walk into a bar it's always like Ooooh, tell me again how CFHttp works? It's so exciting when you talk about parsing CSV files at a given URL. On really long, I opt not to even wear my Ask Me About My CF Cert T-shirt cause I just don't want to have to deal with the groupies. Joking aside though, the Book and the software are most excellent. Even if you are not caring so much about the cert, the book and practice tests really go a LONG way in pointing out how much you don't realize that you don't know about CF. ... Ben Nadel Certified Advanced ColdFusion MX7 Developer www.bennadel.com Need ColdFusion Help? www.bennadel.com/ask-ben/ -Original Message- From: Robertson-Ravo, Neil (RX) [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, December 15, 2006 11:54 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: Certification Agreed, the certs are pretty much worthless in the real world. This e-mail is from Reed Exhibitions (Gateway House, 28 The Quadrant, Richmond, Surrey, TW9 1DN, United Kingdom), a division of Reed Business, Registered in England, Number 678540. It contains information which is confidential and may also be privileged. It is for the exclusive use of the intended recipient(s). If you are not the intended recipient(s) please note that any form of distribution, copying or use of this communication or the information in it is strictly prohibited and may be unlawful. If you have received this communication in error please return it to the sender or call our switchboard on +44 (0) 20 89107910. The opinions expressed within this communication are not necessarily those expressed by Reed Exhibitions. Visit our website at http://www.reedexpo.com -Original Message- From: Snake To: CF-Talk Sent: Fri Dec 15 16:56:38 2006 Subject: RE: Certification Make sure you know how to write CFML. You could cheat like most people do and use the certification study guide. I personally don't think the certification is worth the paper it is printed on. I know several people who got Advanced ColdFusion developers certifications, when in reality they are nothing of the sort. Russ -Original Message- From: Neil Middleton [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 15 December 2006 15:36 To: CF-Talk Subject: Certification Does anyone have any opinions on the best ways to prepare for the CFMX certification exams? -- Neil Middleton Visit feed-squirrel.com ~| Create robust enterprise, web RIAs. Upgrade integrate Adobe Coldfusion MX7 with Flex 2 http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;56760587;14748456;a?http://www.adobe.com/products/coldfusion/flex2/?sdid=LVNU Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:264151 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4
Re: Certification
I actually had the lack of a CF certification held strongly against me about 2-3 years ago in a job interview. Whether the piece of paper means something or not, I doubt it hurts to have when someone also has many years of experience with CF. With that said though, I still have yet to get around to getting one. On 12/15/06, Robertson-Ravo, Neil (RX) [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Agreed, the certs are pretty much worthless in the real world. -- Aaron Rouse http://www.happyhacker.com/ ~| Create robust enterprise, web RIAs. Upgrade integrate Adobe Coldfusion MX7 with Flex 2 http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;56760587;14748456;a?http://www.adobe.com/products/coldfusion/flex2/?sdid=LVNU Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:264152 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
RE: Certification
Lol, I would seriously have to question the kinda of bars you frequent... :) I think I've been to that bar *shudder* ~| Create robust enterprise, web RIAs. Upgrade integrate Adobe Coldfusion MX7 with Flex 2 http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;56760587;14748456;a?http://www.adobe.com/products/coldfusion/flex2/?sdid=LVNU Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:264153 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
Re: Certification
And indeed, as you said they do/can show you what you did and do not know and are a great teaching tool but the actual cert is meaningless. This e-mail is from Reed Exhibitions (Gateway House, 28 The Quadrant, Richmond, Surrey, TW9 1DN, United Kingdom), a division of Reed Business, Registered in England, Number 678540. It contains information which is confidential and may also be privileged. It is for the exclusive use of the intended recipient(s). If you are not the intended recipient(s) please note that any form of distribution, copying or use of this communication or the information in it is strictly prohibited and may be unlawful. If you have received this communication in error please return it to the sender or call our switchboard on +44 (0) 20 89107910. The opinions expressed within this communication are not necessarily those expressed by Reed Exhibitions. Visit our website at http://www.reedexpo.com -Original Message- From: Ben Nadel To: CF-Talk Sent: Fri Dec 15 17:39:46 2006 Subject: RE: Certification What are you talking about?!?!??!?! The ladies love the certification :) Every time I walk into a bar it's always like Ooooh, tell me again how CFHttp works? It's so exciting when you talk about parsing CSV files at a given URL. On really long, I opt not to even wear my Ask Me About My CF Cert T-shirt cause I just don't want to have to deal with the groupies. Joking aside though, the Book and the software are most excellent. Even if you are not caring so much about the cert, the book and practice tests really go a LONG way in pointing out how much you don't realize that you don't know about CF. ... Ben Nadel Certified Advanced ColdFusion MX7 Developer www.bennadel.com Need ColdFusion Help? www.bennadel.com/ask-ben/ -Original Message- From: Robertson-Ravo, Neil (RX) [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, December 15, 2006 11:54 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: Certification Agreed, the certs are pretty much worthless in the real world. This e-mail is from Reed Exhibitions (Gateway House, 28 The Quadrant, Richmond, Surrey, TW9 1DN, United Kingdom), a division of Reed Business, Registered in England, Number 678540. It contains information which is confidential and may also be privileged. It is for the exclusive use of the intended recipient(s). If you are not the intended recipient(s) please note that any form of distribution, copying or use of this communication or the information in it is strictly prohibited and may be unlawful. If you have received this communication in error please return it to the sender or call our switchboard on +44 (0) 20 89107910. The opinions expressed within this communication are not necessarily those expressed by Reed Exhibitions. Visit our website at http://www.reedexpo.com -Original Message- From: Snake To: CF-Talk Sent: Fri Dec 15 16:56:38 2006 Subject: RE: Certification Make sure you know how to write CFML. You could cheat like most people do and use the certification study guide. I personally don't think the certification is worth the paper it is printed on. I know several people who got Advanced ColdFusion developers certifications, when in reality they are nothing of the sort. Russ -Original Message- From: Neil Middleton [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 15 December 2006 15:36 To: CF-Talk Subject: Certification Does anyone have any opinions on the best ways to prepare for the CFMX certification exams? -- Neil Middleton Visit feed-squirrel.com ~| Create robust enterprise, web RIAs. Upgrade integrate Adobe Coldfusion MX7 with Flex 2 http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;56760587;14748456;a?http://www.adobe.com/products/coldfusion/flex2/?sdid=LVNU Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:264155 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
Re: Certification
On 12/15/06, Robertson-Ravo, Neil (RX) [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: And indeed, as you said they do/can show you what you did and do not know and are a great teaching tool but the actual cert is meaningless. meaningless is subjective. You and me and everyone else on this list know that the cert is meaningless when it comes to determining who is a better programmer. But let's ask someone who's job hunting...and a particular company has narrowed their search down to two candidates... our friend and one other person. EVERYTHING between the two is equal (years of experience, skill level, education)...except the other person has their cert, and in this instance, that is enough to tip the scales in favor of the other person, who gets the job. Ask them if it's meaningless. I've got my cert in MX 6 and MX 7. It's never helped me. But I don't regret having it for one simple fact. It will NEVER hurt me. -- Charlie Griefer ...All the world shall be your enemy, Prince with a Thousand Enemies, and whenever they catch you, they will kill you. But first they must catch you, digger, listener, runner, prince with a swift warning. Be cunning and full of tricks and your people shall never be destroyed. ~| Create robust enterprise, web RIAs. Upgrade integrate Adobe Coldfusion MX7 with Flex 2 http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;56760587;14748456;a?http://www.adobe.com/products/coldfusion/flex2/?sdid=LVNU Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:264156 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
RE: Certification
I've got my cert in MX 6 and MX 7. It's never helped me. But I don't regret having it for one simple fact. It will NEVER hurt me. -- Charlie Griefer You could get a paper cut... ~| Create robust enterprise, web RIAs. Upgrade integrate Adobe Coldfusion MX7 with Flex 2 http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;56760587;14748456;a?http://www.adobe.com/products/coldfusion/flex2/?sdid=LVNU Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:264157 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
RE: Certification
chuckle -Original Message- From: Ray Champagne [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, December 15, 2006 2:07 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Certification I've got my cert in MX 6 and MX 7. It's never helped me. But I don't regret having it for one simple fact. It will NEVER hurt me. -- Charlie Griefer You could get a paper cut... ~| Create robust enterprise, web RIAs. Upgrade integrate Adobe Coldfusion MX7 with Flex 2 http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;56760587;14748456;a?http://www.adobe.com/products/coldfusion/flex2/?sdid=LVNU Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:264158 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
Re: Certification
Certification is a foundation to the overall process of being a developer. I would recommend it to anyone who wants to learn what is new about each revision of ColdFusion. I assisted in a study group to help people certify and everyone who regularly attended benefited from the material. We use Ben's certification as guidance, but advocated the CF Exam buster. Years of ColdFusion usage with multiple projects will determine a well rounded developer or problem solver. I would recommend that if you become F certified, that you follow up with another certification that will assist your CF knowledge. Examples would be database centric certifications or perhaps the entry level Java certification. Teddy On 12/15/06, Ray Champagne [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I've got my cert in MX 6 and MX 7. It's never helped me. But I don't regret having it for one simple fact. It will NEVER hurt me. -- Charlie Griefer You could get a paper cut... ~| Create robust enterprise, web RIAs. Upgrade integrate Adobe Coldfusion MX7 with Flex 2 http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;56760587;14748456;a?http://www.adobe.com/products/coldfusion/flex2/?sdid=LVNU Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:264159 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4
RE: Certification
Nah... The paper's too thick. !//-- andy matthews web developer certified advanced coldfusion programmer ICGLink, Inc. [EMAIL PROTECTED] 615.370.1530 x737 --//- -Original Message- From: Ray Champagne [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, December 15, 2006 1:07 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Certification I've got my cert in MX 6 and MX 7. It's never helped me. But I don't regret having it for one simple fact. It will NEVER hurt me. -- Charlie Griefer You could get a paper cut... ~| Create robust enterprise, web RIAs. Upgrade integrate Adobe Coldfusion MX7 with Flex 2 http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;56760587;14748456;a?http://www.adobe.com/products/coldfusion/flex2/?sdid=LVNU Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:264160 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
Re: Certification
On 12/15/06, Steve Brownlee [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I've got my cert in MX 6 and MX 7. It's never helped me. But I don't regret having it for one simple fact. It will NEVER hurt me. -- Charlie Griefer You could get a paper cut... Nuh-uh. It's in a frame :P (and quite nicely covers a piece of the wall that could use some sanding and painting. hey...i guess it -has- helped me) :) -- Charlie Griefer ...All the world shall be your enemy, Prince with a Thousand Enemies, and whenever they catch you, they will kill you. But first they must catch you, digger, listener, runner, prince with a swift warning. Be cunning and full of tricks and your people shall never be destroyed. ~| Create robust enterprise, web RIAs. Upgrade integrate Adobe Coldfusion MX7 with Flex 2 http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;56760587;14748456;a?http://www.adobe.com/products/coldfusion/flex2/?sdid=LVNU Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:264161 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
RE: Certification
I strongly agree. The one other thing to point out is that it's just like college degrees and even high school diplomas. In reality, they're really not that hard to get. They don't mean you're really all that smart because I've seen plenty of morons with Masters degrees and even PhDs but it's the fact that they did it. I work in the gov't world and they base a lot on the degrees you have. I wouldn't ever claim that a CF certification will get you paid more, but in the mind of a manager (who may not know much) it probably looks pretty impressive. John Burns -Original Message- From: Charlie Griefer [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, December 15, 2006 1:59 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: Certification On 12/15/06, Robertson-Ravo, Neil (RX) [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: And indeed, as you said they do/can show you what you did and do not know and are a great teaching tool but the actual cert is meaningless. meaningless is subjective. You and me and everyone else on this list know that the cert is meaningless when it comes to determining who is a better programmer. But let's ask someone who's job hunting...and a particular company has narrowed their search down to two candidates... our friend and one other person. EVERYTHING between the two is equal (years of experience, skill level, education)...except the other person has their cert, and in this instance, that is enough to tip the scales in favor of the other person, who gets the job. Ask them if it's meaningless. I've got my cert in MX 6 and MX 7. It's never helped me. But I don't regret having it for one simple fact. It will NEVER hurt me. -- Charlie Griefer ...All the world shall be your enemy, Prince with a Thousand Enemies, and whenever they catch you, they will kill you. But first they must catch you, digger, listener, runner, prince with a swift warning. Be cunning and full of tricks and your people shall never be destroyed. ~| Create robust enterprise, web RIAs. Upgrade integrate Adobe Coldfusion MX7 with Flex 2 http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;56760587;14748456;a?http://www.adobe.com/products/coldfusion/flex2/?sdid=LVNU Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:264162 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
Re: Certification
Hmm, I can't remember ever having to ago my certs for my degrees in fact, I am not even sure where they are! This e-mail is from Reed Exhibitions (Gateway House, 28 The Quadrant, Richmond, Surrey, TW9 1DN, United Kingdom), a division of Reed Business, Registered in England, Number 678540. It contains information which is confidential and may also be privileged. It is for the exclusive use of the intended recipient(s). If you are not the intended recipient(s) please note that any form of distribution, copying or use of this communication or the information in it is strictly prohibited and may be unlawful. If you have received this communication in error please return it to the sender or call our switchboard on +44 (0) 20 89107910. The opinions expressed within this communication are not necessarily those expressed by Reed Exhibitions. Visit our website at http://www.reedexpo.com -Original Message- From: Burns, John D To: CF-Talk Sent: Fri Dec 15 19:18:56 2006 Subject: RE: Certification I strongly agree. The one other thing to point out is that it's just like college degrees and even high school diplomas. In reality, they're really not that hard to get. They don't mean you're really all that smart because I've seen plenty of morons with Masters degrees and even PhDs but it's the fact that they did it. I work in the gov't world and they base a lot on the degrees you have. I wouldn't ever claim that a CF certification will get you paid more, but in the mind of a manager (who may not know much) it probably looks pretty impressive. John Burns -Original Message- From: Charlie Griefer [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, December 15, 2006 1:59 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: Certification On 12/15/06, Robertson-Ravo, Neil (RX) [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: And indeed, as you said they do/can show you what you did and do not know and are a great teaching tool but the actual cert is meaningless. meaningless is subjective. You and me and everyone else on this list know that the cert is meaningless when it comes to determining who is a better programmer. But let's ask someone who's job hunting...and a particular company has narrowed their search down to two candidates... our friend and one other person. EVERYTHING between the two is equal (years of experience, skill level, education)...except the other person has their cert, and in this instance, that is enough to tip the scales in favor of the other person, who gets the job. Ask them if it's meaningless. I've got my cert in MX 6 and MX 7. It's never helped me. But I don't regret having it for one simple fact. It will NEVER hurt me. -- Charlie Griefer ...All the world shall be your enemy, Prince with a Thousand Enemies, and whenever they catch you, they will kill you. But first they must catch you, digger, listener, runner, prince with a swift warning. Be cunning and full of tricks and your people shall never be destroyed. ~| Create robust enterprise, web RIAs. Upgrade integrate Adobe Coldfusion MX7 with Flex 2 http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;56760587;14748456;a?http://www.adobe.com/products/coldfusion/flex2/?sdid=LVNU Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:264163 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
Re: Certification
Certification is a foundation to the overall process of being a developer. I would recommend it to anyone who wants to learn what is new about each revision of ColdFusion. I'd have to say if a developer needs to take an exam to learn new features then perhaps they aren't a very good developer. A developer should be learning constantly everyday. Cheers Bryan Stevenson B.Comm. VP Director of E-Commerce Development Electric Edge Systems Group Inc. phone: 250.480.0642 fax: 250.480.1264 cell: 250.920.8830 e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] web: www.electricedgesystems.com ~| Create robust enterprise, web RIAs. Upgrade integrate Adobe Coldfusion MX7 with Flex 2 http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;56760587;14748456;a?http://www.adobe.com/products/coldfusion/flex2/?sdid=LVNU Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:264167 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
Re: Certification
Bryan, What if it isn't you primary job role? What about new people? What about right after a major update release and you want to learn and certify on the new version ASAP? People study in many different ways. Some people do well by doing examples and others are good book learners. I have been using CF for 8 years and I got a 84% because I keep mixing up features from 6, 7 and 8. A lot of developers get comfortable with what works and do not use the entire language. I know that I use certain techniques over others because of peformance reasons or code complexity. The certification forces you to think of all of the functions you are not used to working with everyday. I will probably retake the test and get above 84%, but just blanketly saying what people should be doing is entirely subjective. Cheers, Teddy On 12/15/06, Bryan Stevenson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Certification is a foundation to the overall process of being a developer. I would recommend it to anyone who wants to learn what is new about each revision of ColdFusion. I'd have to say if a developer needs to take an exam to learn new features then perhaps they aren't a very good developer. A developer should be learning constantly everyday. Cheers Bryan Stevenson B.Comm. VP Director of E-Commerce Development Electric Edge Systems Group Inc. phone: 250.480.0642 fax: 250.480.1264 cell: 250.920.8830 e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] web: www.electricedgesystems.com ~| Create robust enterprise, web RIAs. Upgrade integrate Adobe Coldfusion MX7 with Flex 2 http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;56760587;14748456;a?http://www.adobe.com/products/coldfusion/flex2/?sdid=LVNU Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:264171 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
RE: Certification
I'd have to say if a developer needs to take an exam to learn new features then perhaps they aren't a very good developer. Or perhaps the work they are doing simply doesn't expose them to some of the more esoteric functions of the language that the exam likely covers. Being a good developer has less to do with having memorized every last tag, function and feature, and much more with how that knowledge is applied to solve a problem. I can always look in the docs to get an answer to a syntax question, but the docs don't tell me how to use it to solve the particular problem in front of me - that's where experience and skill comes in. Exams, however, by their nature, tend to be more about reciting syntax and knowing the language in a broad fashion, rather than a deep one. So I can see how brushing up for an exam might give me more than a few a ha! moments as I cover aspects of the language I simply haven't had a real world use for, and it's useful information, but whether I knew it or not before hand has little bearing on how well I write software. ~| Create robust enterprise, web RIAs. Upgrade integrate Adobe Coldfusion MX7 with Flex 2 http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;56760587;14748456;a?http://www.adobe.com/products/coldfusion/flex2/?sdid=LVNU Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:264173 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
Re: Certification
I would like to make the point that the certs are not worthless - they answer the question as to your knowledge for 90% of the interviews you will take...you will rarely get anyone outright questioning your knowledge of CF if you have the advanced certification. I haven't gotten the 7 cert myself yet, but I have other things on my resume that fill that gap on my resume in terms of providing proof of my CF knowledge. I am also going to take serious issue with the concept that preparing for an exam is cheating. That is a seriously bone-headed comment. This exam is like any other exam and warrants preparation if you actually take it seriously...if you don't take it seriously, then don't prepare take your chances, but one would ask, why even bother taking it if you don't take the exam seriously enough to prepare. P.S. Back when I took the exam for 5 and 6, I used the cfexambuster and it was excellent. - Brian Rinaldi blog - http://www.remotesynthesis.com/blog CF Open Source List - http://www.remotesynthesis.com/cfopensourcelist ~| Create robust enterprise, web RIAs. Upgrade integrate Adobe Coldfusion MX7 with Flex 2 http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;56760587;14748456;a?http://www.adobe.com/products/coldfusion/flex2/?sdid=LVNU Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:264175 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
Re: Certification
Bryan, What if it isn't you primary job role? we are talking about developers...and knowing what they are doing is their job What about new people? What about themI'd have them read WACK before putting them through an exam What about right after a major update release and you want to learn and certify on the new version ASAP? Only matters if you want to certify (which I see no need for other than to line coporate pockets). I simply read the docs for the new version and learn myself. I sure don't need an exam for that See Doug's postit sums up my thoughts on the subject failry well. I'm done with this subject...everyone can believe what they want...I'm going to keep my opinion and get actual work done ;-) Cheers Bryan Stevenson B.Comm. VP Director of E-Commerce Development Electric Edge Systems Group Inc. phone: 250.480.0642 fax: 250.480.1264 cell: 250.920.8830 e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] web: www.electricedgesystems.com ~| Create robust enterprise, web RIAs. Upgrade integrate Adobe Coldfusion MX7 with Flex 2 http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;56760587;14748456;a?http://www.adobe.com/products/coldfusion/flex2/?sdid=LVNU Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:264178 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
Re: Certification
I doubt you would be chosen just because you have a cert, we always test developers who come for interview and we have turned away many certified ones who knew jack when it can to real written and oral test. The non certs were the ones who shone. This e-mail is from Reed Exhibitions (Gateway House, 28 The Quadrant, Richmond, Surrey, TW9 1DN, United Kingdom), a division of Reed Business, Registered in England, Number 678540. It contains information which is confidential and may also be privileged. It is for the exclusive use of the intended recipient(s). If you are not the intended recipient(s) please note that any form of distribution, copying or use of this communication or the information in it is strictly prohibited and may be unlawful. If you have received this communication in error please return it to the sender or call our switchboard on +44 (0) 20 89107910. The opinions expressed within this communication are not necessarily those expressed by Reed Exhibitions. Visit our website at http://www.reedexpo.com -Original Message- From: Brian Rinaldi To: CF-Talk Sent: Fri Dec 15 18:51:43 2006 Subject: Re: Certification I would like to make the point that the certs are not worthless - they answer the question as to your knowledge for 90% of the interviews you will take...you will rarely get anyone outright questioning your knowledge of CF if you have the advanced certification. I haven't gotten the 7 cert myself yet, but I have other things on my resume that fill that gap on my resume in terms of providing proof of my CF knowledge. I am also going to take serious issue with the concept that preparing for an exam is cheating. That is a seriously bone-headed comment. This exam is like any other exam and warrants preparation if you actually take it seriously...if you don't take it seriously, then don't prepare take your chances, but one would ask, why even bother taking it if you don't take the exam seriously enough to prepare. P.S. Back when I took the exam for 5 and 6, I used the cfexambuster and it was excellent. - Brian Rinaldi blog - http://www.remotesynthesis.com/blog CF Open Source List - http://www.remotesynthesis.com/cfopensourcelist ~| Create robust enterprise, web RIAs. Upgrade integrate Adobe Coldfusion MX7 with Flex 2 http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;56760587;14748456;a?http://www.adobe.com/products/coldfusion/flex2/?sdid=LVNU Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:264180 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4
Re: Certification
On 12/15/06, Robertson-Ravo, Neil (RX) [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I doubt you would be chosen just because you have a cert, we always test developers who come for interview and we have turned away many certified ones who knew jack when it can to real written and oral test. The non certs were the ones who shone. In a case where everything else is equal, it could be a deciding factor. Also realize that not all places test their interviewees. Not all places have what I would consider to be qualified folks doing the interviewing (it's frequently managers...the same managers who love to chant the mantra of we don't have time to do it right, we need to get it done quickly and then wonder why 2 weeks after its release it breaks horribly) :) As I've already said...it may -never- help you. But can you argue that it could ever hurt to have? -- Charlie Griefer ...All the world shall be your enemy, Prince with a Thousand Enemies, and whenever they catch you, they will kill you. But first they must catch you, digger, listener, runner, prince with a swift warning. Be cunning and full of tricks and your people shall never be destroyed. ~| Create robust enterprise, web RIAs. Upgrade integrate Adobe Coldfusion MX7 with Flex 2 http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;56760587;14748456;a?http://www.adobe.com/products/coldfusion/flex2/?sdid=LVNU Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:264183 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
Re: SPAM-LOW: Re: Certification
As I've already said...it may -never- help you. But can you argue that it could ever hurt to have? Yes...the opportunity cost of the time wasted getting the useless piece of paper ;-) Happy Friday Cheers Bryan Stevenson B.Comm. VP Director of E-Commerce Development Electric Edge Systems Group Inc. phone: 250.480.0642 fax: 250.480.1264 cell: 250.920.8830 e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] web: www.electricedgesystems.com ~| Create robust enterprise, web RIAs. Upgrade integrate Adobe Coldfusion MX7 with Flex 2 http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;56760587;14748456;a?http://www.adobe.com/products/coldfusion/flex2/?sdid=LVNU Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:264190 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4
Re: Certification
I have seen where certifications hurt people, not in the CF world but in the IT world. Back when I was working for a computer parts wholesaler anytime they were hiring for techs if someone came in saying they had A+ certification that immediately meant they were not going to get hired. Seeing some of the comments on here about how worthless a CF Certification is makes me wonder if something similar might happen in the CF world. Probably not an instant no-hire case but perhaps makes it harder for someone to get hired because the hiring party might be reluctant in accepting the person interviewing really does know their stuff. On 12/15/06, Bryan Stevenson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: As I've already said...it may -never- help you. But can you argue that it could ever hurt to have? Yes...the opportunity cost of the time wasted getting the useless piece of paper ;-) Happy Friday Cheers Bryan Stevenson B.Comm. VP Director of E-Commerce Development Electric Edge Systems Group Inc. phone: 250.480.0642 fax: 250.480.1264 cell: 250.920.8830 e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] web: www.electricedgesystems.com ~| Create robust enterprise, web RIAs. Upgrade integrate Adobe Coldfusion MX7 with Flex 2 http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;56760587;14748456;a?http://www.adobe.com/products/coldfusion/flex2/?sdid=LVNU Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:264191 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4
RE: Certification
The CF certification has been around for years and hasn't had THAT bad of a stigma attached to it. When I interview I like to see it because it's a general indicator of the willingness of the candidate to pursue ongoing professional development. -Original Message- From: Aaron Rouse [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, December 15, 2006 4:08 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: Certification I have seen where certifications hurt people, not in the CF world but in the IT world. Back when I was working for a computer parts wholesaler anytime they were hiring for techs if someone came in saying they had A+ certification that immediately meant they were not going to get hired. Seeing some of the comments on here about how worthless a CF Certification is makes me wonder if something similar might happen in the CF world. Probably not an instant no-hire case but perhaps makes it harder for someone to get hired because the hiring party might be reluctant in accepting the person interviewing really does know their stuff. On 12/15/06, Bryan Stevenson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: As I've already said...it may -never- help you. But can you argue that it could ever hurt to have? Yes...the opportunity cost of the time wasted getting the useless piece of paper ;-) Happy Friday Cheers Bryan Stevenson B.Comm. VP Director of E-Commerce Development Electric Edge Systems Group Inc. phone: 250.480.0642 fax: 250.480.1264 cell: 250.920.8830 e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] web: www.electricedgesystems.com ~| Create robust enterprise, web RIAs. Upgrade integrate Adobe Coldfusion MX7 with Flex 2 http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;56760587;14748456;a?http://www.adobe.com/products/coldfusion/flex2/?sdid=LVNU Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:264208 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4
RE: Certification
But that's really what the exam is, it tests how many tags and functions you know. There is very little else to it. -Original Message- From: Doug Bezona [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 15 December 2006 19:57 To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Certification I'd have to say if a developer needs to take an exam to learn new features then perhaps they aren't a very good developer. Or perhaps the work they are doing simply doesn't expose them to some of the more esoteric functions of the language that the exam likely covers. Being a good developer has less to do with having memorized every last tag, function and feature, and much more with how that knowledge is applied to solve a problem. I can always look in the docs to get an answer to a syntax question, but the docs don't tell me how to use it to solve the particular problem in front of me - that's where experience and skill comes in. Exams, however, by their nature, tend to be more about reciting syntax and knowing the language in a broad fashion, rather than a deep one. So I can see how brushing up for an exam might give me more than a few a ha! moments as I cover aspects of the language I simply haven't had a real world use for, and it's useful information, but whether I knew it or not before hand has little bearing on how well I write software. ~| Create robust enterprise, web RIAs. Upgrade integrate Adobe Coldfusion MX7 with Flex 2 http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;56760587;14748456;a?http://www.adobe.com/products/coldfusion/flex2/?sdid=LVNU Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:264214 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4
RE: Certification
The study guide is basically a how to pass the certification book. You wouldn't be allowed to use such a book to pass your school exams, they would certainly call that cheating. I did not do any preperation for my test or use a study guide, in fact I took it with a hangover, and I still managed to pass. If you can't pass the test with your existing skills and knowledge, then what is the point in doing it? Russ -Original Message- From: Brian Rinaldi [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 15 December 2006 18:52 To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: Certification I would like to make the point that the certs are not worthless - they answer the question as to your knowledge for 90% of the interviews you will take...you will rarely get anyone outright questioning your knowledge of CF if you have the advanced certification. I haven't gotten the 7 cert myself yet, but I have other things on my resume that fill that gap on my resume in terms of providing proof of my CF knowledge. I am also going to take serious issue with the concept that preparing for an exam is cheating. That is a seriously bone-headed comment. This exam is like any other exam and warrants preparation if you actually take it seriously...if you don't take it seriously, then don't prepare take your chances, but one would ask, why even bother taking it if you don't take the exam seriously enough to prepare. P.S. Back when I took the exam for 5 and 6, I used the cfexambuster and it was excellent. - Brian Rinaldi blog - http://www.remotesynthesis.com/blog CF Open Source List - http://www.remotesynthesis.com/cfopensourcelist ~| Create robust enterprise, web RIAs. Upgrade integrate Adobe Coldfusion MX7 with Flex 2 http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;56760587;14748456;a?http://www.adobe.com/products/coldfusion/flex2/?sdid=LVNU Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:264216 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
RE: Certification
By your definition, any textbook would be considered a how to pass a test manual right? !//-- andy matthews web developer certified advanced coldfusion programmer ICGLink, Inc. [EMAIL PROTECTED] 615.370.1530 x737 --//- -Original Message- From: Snake [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, December 15, 2006 4:21 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Certification The study guide is basically a how to pass the certification book. You wouldn't be allowed to use such a book to pass your school exams, they would certainly call that cheating. I did not do any preperation for my test or use a study guide, in fact I took it with a hangover, and I still managed to pass. If you can't pass the test with your existing skills and knowledge, then what is the point in doing it? Russ ~| Create robust enterprise, web RIAs. Upgrade integrate Adobe Coldfusion MX7 with Flex 2 http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;56760587;14748456;a?http://www.adobe.com/products/coldfusion/flex2/?sdid=LVNU Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:264217 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4
RE: Certification
Erm no, haven't you ready any books before ? -Original Message- From: Andy Matthews [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 15 December 2006 22:30 To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Certification By your definition, any textbook would be considered a how to pass a test manual right? !//-- andy matthews web developer certified advanced coldfusion programmer ICGLink, Inc. [EMAIL PROTECTED] 615.370.1530 x737 --//- -Original Message- From: Snake [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, December 15, 2006 4:21 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Certification The study guide is basically a how to pass the certification book. You wouldn't be allowed to use such a book to pass your school exams, they would certainly call that cheating. I did not do any preperation for my test or use a study guide, in fact I took it with a hangover, and I still managed to pass. If you can't pass the test with your existing skills and knowledge, then what is the point in doing it? Russ ~| Create robust enterprise, web RIAs. Upgrade integrate Adobe Coldfusion MX7 with Flex 2 http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;56760587;14748456;a?http://www.adobe.com/products/coldfusion/flex2/?sdid=LVNU Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:264219 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4
Re: Certification
to improve your skills and knowledge perhaps? The process of preparing for the test forces you to look into all the nooks and crannies of CF. I actually think its a good thing to do when you are first learning CF or maybe have 1 or 2 years under your belt. On 12/15/06, Snake [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: snip If you can't pass the test with your existing skills and knowledge, then what is the point in doing it? ~| Create robust enterprise, web RIAs. Upgrade integrate Adobe Coldfusion MX7 with Flex 2 http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;56760587;14748456;a?http://www.adobe.com/products/coldfusion/flex2/?sdid=LVNU Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:264220 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4
RE: Certification
Maybe for some people. -Original Message- From: Michael Traher [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 15 December 2006 23:18 To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: Certification to improve your skills and knowledge perhaps? The process of preparing for the test forces you to look into all the nooks and crannies of CF. I actually think its a good thing to do when you are first learning CF or maybe have 1 or 2 years under your belt. On 12/15/06, Snake [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: snip If you can't pass the test with your existing skills and knowledge, then what is the point in doing it? ~| Create robust enterprise, web RIAs. Upgrade integrate Adobe Coldfusion MX7 with Flex 2 http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;56760587;14748456;a?http://www.adobe.com/products/coldfusion/flex2/?sdid=LVNU Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:264222 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
Re: Certification
To be honest, I am looking at certification mainly because it's a nice easy way of showing you aren't just mentioning it on your CV, but you do have at least a decent understanding of the topic. Something that people (esp contractors) my find quite useful to have. Neil On 12/15/06, Snake [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Maybe for some people. -Original Message- From: Michael Traher [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 15 December 2006 23:18 To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: Certification to improve your skills and knowledge perhaps? The process of preparing for the test forces you to look into all the nooks and crannies of CF. I actually think its a good thing to do when you are first learning CF or maybe have 1 or 2 years under your belt. On 12/15/06, Snake [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: snip If you can't pass the test with your existing skills and knowledge, then what is the point in doing it? ~| Create robust enterprise, web RIAs. Upgrade integrate Adobe Coldfusion MX7 with Flex 2 http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;56760587;14748456;a?http://www.adobe.com/products/coldfusion/flex2/?sdid=LVNU Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:264229 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
RE: Certification
Hmmm how 'bout to learn something new? Anyone who refuses to open a book to see if there's anything new they can learn or refuses to participate in a mailing list would have to feel like they know everything there is to know about a topic and can't possibly learn anything new... Rick -Original Message- From: Snake [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, December 15, 2006 5:21 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Certification The study guide is basically a how to pass the certification book. You wouldn't be allowed to use such a book to pass your school exams, they would certainly call that cheating. I did not do any preperation for my test or use a study guide, in fact I took it with a hangover, and I still managed to pass. If you can't pass the test with your existing skills and knowledge, then what is the point in doing it? Russ ~| Create robust enterprise, web RIAs. Upgrade integrate Adobe Coldfusion MX7 with Flex 2 http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;56760587;14748456;a?http://www.adobe.com/products/coldfusion/flex2/?sdid=LVNU Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:264230 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4
RE: Certification
Do you use every feature of ColdFusion every single day? A lot of times it can point out things that you don't normally use or didn't realize existed and may help you come up with new ways of doing things. That would make it part of constantly learning... Eric -Original Message- From: Bryan Stevenson [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, 15 December 2006 13:40 To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: Certification Certification is a foundation to the overall process of being a developer. I would recommend it to anyone who wants to learn what is new about each revision of ColdFusion. I'd have to say if a developer needs to take an exam to learn new features then perhaps they aren't a very good developer. A developer should be learning constantly everyday. Cheers Bryan Stevenson B.Comm. VP Director of E-Commerce Development Electric Edge Systems Group Inc. phone: 250.480.0642 fax: 250.480.1264 cell: 250.920.8830 e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] web: www.electricedgesystems.com ~| Create robust enterprise, web RIAs. Upgrade integrate Adobe Coldfusion MX7 with Flex 2 http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;56760587;14748456;a?http://www.adobe.com/products/coldfusion/flex2/?sdid=LVNU Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:264231 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4
RE: Certification
But that's really what the exam is, it tests how many tags and functions you know. There is very little else to it. Exactly, which is why it's not an ideal measure of a developer's ability. The process of studying for one can be of some benefit though, if only to get a little exposure to features you might otherwise not have encountered. ~| Create robust enterprise, web RIAs. Upgrade integrate Adobe Coldfusion MX7 with Flex 2 http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;56760587;14748456;a?http://www.adobe.com/products/coldfusion/flex2/?sdid=LVNU Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:264232 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4
RE: Certification, Online Learning
Ben Forta publishes a good book that's geared toward the test. Just watch the sample questions as many of the answers in the back were wrong. -Original Message- From: Donna French [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, May 21, 2005 10:54 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: OT: Certification, Online Learning I'd like to dig in and take the CFMX7 Certification test toward the end of the summer. I've been using CF since 4.5 and would like to find an online class that's self-paced to help polish my skills and learn the details of the new version features. I've considered eClasses.org and Macromedia University. Any feedback on those two? Or can someone suggest another online learning resource? (Other than the obvious Macromedia documentation and such.) Thanks in advance, Donna French ~| Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account. http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=67 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:207353 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: Certification exam: Wait for Blackstone?
1. no idea 2. dunno, but i took the exam at CF4.5, and when CF5 came out a few months later i got a new certificate saying i was a CF5 certified (advanced) developer. 3. dunno 4. personally, i would wait. I had a vague plan to take the exam again sometime, but have put this on hold until the cf7 one comes out. Cheers Bert On Thu, 06 Jan 2005 10:20:16 -0400, Stephen Lapointe [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: For those with some insider knowledge, some questions about CF certification and Blackstone: 1) Will the Blackstone certification exam become available at about the same time as the Blackstone product release? 2) If someone were to take the CF certification exam now (and pass), would the certification be carried forward to Blackstone? 3) If the answer to 2 is no, would there be some coupon/discount for the Blackstone exam if you've taken the current CF exam just a short period before the Blackstone exam is available? 4) Bottom line: Would you recommend taking the CF certification exam now, or wait until the Blackstone exam becomes available? Thanks for any input. ~| Discover CFTicket - The leading ColdFusion Help Desk and Trouble Ticket application http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=48 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:189621 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: Certification exam: Wait for Blackstone?
Hi, 1. It seems so from the insider information I saw. 2. Only for a limited period. I took the CF 5 Exam just before the CFMX release and got a 1 year validation. 3. Don't know of one 4. Wait - unless you have a really good reason for wanting it now. Kevin Roche On Thu, 06 Jan 2005 10:20:16 -0400, Stephen Lapointe [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: For those with some insider knowledge, some questions about CF certification and Blackstone: 1) Will the Blackstone certification exam become available at about the same time as the Blackstone product release? 2) If someone were to take the CF certification exam now (and pass), would the certification be carried forward to Blackstone? 3) If the answer to 2 is no, would there be some coupon/discount for the Blackstone exam if you've taken the current CF exam just a short period before the Blackstone exam is available? 4) Bottom line: Would you recommend taking the CF certification exam now, or wait until the Blackstone exam becomes available? Thanks for any input. ~| Get the mailserver that powers this list at http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=17 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:189628 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: Certification exam: Wait for Blackstone?
I would not take the CF certification at all. I have did it once, and the difficulty was very low, I rushed through the examination, and yes I made an error but that was more less boredom than difficulty. Besides, a CF certification doesn't have real value over here, maybe it does have any weight in the US. I'd personally not recognize developers on base of their CF certification if I had to just because the exam isn't difficult at all if you have even minor experience with CF. I have seen code from even a certified Macromedia trainer and that code really made me cry, nightmares and waking up in the middle of the night all sweaty in bed. But hey .. maybe it is different in the US .. :) I'd rather spend my 150 dollars on diner and wine with the wife (or without the wife ... ). Micha Schopman Project Manager Modern Media, Databankweg 12 M, 3821 AL Amersfoort Tel 033-4535377, Fax 033-4535388 KvK Amersfoort 39081679, Rabo 39.48.05.380 ~| Find out how CFTicket can increase your company's customer support efficiency by 100% http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=49 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:189514 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: Certification exam: Wait for Blackstone?
On Thu, 06 Jan 2005 10:20:16 -0400, Stephen Lapointe [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: For those with some insider knowledge, some questions about CF certification and Blackstone: 1) Will the Blackstone certification exam become available at about the same time as the Blackstone product release? 2) If someone were to take the CF certification exam now (and pass), would the certification be carried forward to Blackstone? 3) If the answer to 2 is no, would there be some coupon/discount for the Blackstone exam if you've taken the current CF exam just a short period before the Blackstone exam is available? 4) Bottom line: Would you recommend taking the CF certification exam now, or wait until the Blackstone exam becomes available? Thanks for any input. Stephen, Anybody with insider knowledge with regard to Blackstone is under NDA at this point. Your best bet is to contact a Macromedia rep directly and see if they can provide you with this information. Regards, Dave. ~| Find out how CFTicket can increase your company's customer support efficiency by 100% http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=49 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:189515 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: certification experiences/plans?
-Original Message- From: Dave Watts [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Tuesday, January 07, 2003 6:03 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: certification experiences/plans? I'm saying you shouldn't have to be *certified* to be a partner, if you've got equivalent skills. When I complained (last year) to MM that I didn't want to waste a day getting certified (travel to and from) when I was already an existing partner, an author, and a CF developer of 3+ years they said that or equivalent was OK. That's fine, but the website for partnership say 1 Certified when certification for specified product is available at least for solution providers But have to admit, I caved. When I was in DC for CFUN-02, I took advantage of a nearby test center and did a walkin to get the (Advanced, no less) cert. Why should this be different from any other arbitrary requirement? It shouldn't. I took the CF 5 test ONLY because MM told us we needed at least 1 certification to remain a partner. We are an associate partner and I used some coupon code from MM to get 50% off the test. I took one of the SQL Server 2000 tests a month later and I failed, but I was very close to passing. Of course, close doesn't count. The only reason I took it was because we need one more test to be MS certified Solution Providers. The SQL Server test was 100x harder than the CF test; I highly doubt there are many MCDBA's out there who aren't highly knowledgeable, and unless they cheated or have photographic memories, I say they more than likely know their stuff. I learned how to drive a car before I got my driver's license - I'd just finished spending three years driving vehicles up to and over 60 tons, on narrow ice-covered roads no less! Why didn't the state simply waive the requirement for me? I also learned how to safely handle firearms before receiving official training; why couldn't the drill sergeant give me the day off instead? Perhaps you didn't complain enough, or, knowing you, you didn't complain at all. You could've contacted the ACLU and complained about the unfairness of the situations. Now that I know that if I had whined enough I could've saved the 45 minutes it took to get to the testing center, take the test, and get back home, not to mention the $75 I would've saved, I feel cheated! I mean, I got a good score on the test and I didn't even have to study. Did taking the test help me out? No, but it helped Macromedia to more of our money, and I'm not averse to that at all (I am, after all, a capitalist). What is not fair is people skirting the rules. I figure if we can all afford to pay for the people who are going to milk the unemployment extension, then we associate partners can afford to take a test that IS but at the same time seems NOT to be arbitrary, depending on the stink people cause about it. Andy ~| Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/index.cfm?forumid=4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/index.cfm?method=subscribeforumid=4 FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq This list and all House of Fusion resources hosted by CFHosting.com. The place for dependable ColdFusion Hosting. Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
RE: certification experiences/plans?
I don't know, but our partner level includes certification vouchers. Matt Liotta President CEO Montara Software, Inc. http://www.montarasoftware.com/ 888-408-0900 x901 -Original Message- From: Samuel Neff [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Monday, January 06, 2003 10:54 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: certification experiences/plans? For example, as a Macromedia partner my developers are required to be certified. However, as a partner our certifications are free, so there you go. -Matt Do all partners get free certifications or does it depend on your partner level? ~| Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/index.cfm?forumid=4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/index.cfm?method=subscribeforumid=4 FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Signup for the Fusion Authority news alert and keep up with the latest news in ColdFusion and related topics. http://www.fusionauthority.com/signup.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
Re: certification experiences/plans?
Whoa...I came in way late on this thread So is it being said that MM Partners get free certs? If so what partner level? how many certs? Bryan Stevenson B.Comm. VP Director of E-Commerce Development Electric Edge Systems Group Inc. t. 250.920.8830 e. [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Macromedia Associate Partner www.macromedia.com - Vancouver Island ColdFusion Users Group Founder Director www.cfug-vancouverisland.com - Original Message - From: Matt Liotta [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: CF-Talk [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, January 07, 2003 6:53 AM Subject: RE: certification experiences/plans? I don't know, but our partner level includes certification vouchers. Matt Liotta President CEO Montara Software, Inc. http://www.montarasoftware.com/ 888-408-0900 x901 -Original Message- From: Samuel Neff [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Monday, January 06, 2003 10:54 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: certification experiences/plans? For example, as a Macromedia partner my developers are required to be certified. However, as a partner our certifications are free, so there you go. -Matt Do all partners get free certifications or does it depend on your partner level? ~| Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/index.cfm?forumid=4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/index.cfm?method=subscribeforumid=4 FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Signup for the Fusion Authority news alert and keep up with the latest news in ColdFusion and related topics. http://www.fusionauthority.com/signup.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
RE: certification experiences/plans?
You can find the details about all the benefits of becoming a partner at http://spectra15.macromedia.com/overview/na_benefits.cfm. Matt Liotta President CEO Montara Software, Inc. http://www.montarasoftware.com/ 888-408-0900 x901 -Original Message- From: Bryan Stevenson [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Tuesday, January 07, 2003 11:09 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: certification experiences/plans? Whoa...I came in way late on this thread So is it being said that MM Partners get free certs? If so what partner level? how many certs? Bryan Stevenson B.Comm. VP Director of E-Commerce Development Electric Edge Systems Group Inc. t. 250.920.8830 e. [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Macromedia Associate Partner www.macromedia.com - Vancouver Island ColdFusion Users Group Founder Director www.cfug-vancouverisland.com - Original Message - From: Matt Liotta [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: CF-Talk [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, January 07, 2003 6:53 AM Subject: RE: certification experiences/plans? I don't know, but our partner level includes certification vouchers. Matt Liotta President CEO Montara Software, Inc. http://www.montarasoftware.com/ 888-408-0900 x901 -Original Message- From: Samuel Neff [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Monday, January 06, 2003 10:54 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: certification experiences/plans? For example, as a Macromedia partner my developers are required to be certified. However, as a partner our certifications are free, so there you go. -Matt Do all partners get free certifications or does it depend on your partner level? ~| Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/index.cfm?forumid=4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/index.cfm?method=subscribeforumid=4 FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
Re: RE: certification experiences/plans?
Very interesting on what everybody has to say on Certification... A certifcation lets you prove to YOURSELF how good you are with the specific area of development... and much more. A very good example.. There are alot of questions asked on this list over and over again and alot of BAD CODE posted here... Well if those ppl really knew their stuff...took some time to study and understand all aspects of development We wouldnt be seeing those questions!. Typically..most developers only know certain AREAS of development..cause thats what they mostly use... A Certification Requires you to KNOW all Areas/Aspects of the development language. Before taking my Certification Exam, i had no clue of how CF Verity Engine worked or extensive details of implementation...Since i never had to implement it... Certifcation Requires you to be able to Understand and be able to implement all aspects of the language. This also helps Employers evaluate your skills. Sometimes 5 years of experience means nothing.. if you were only exposed to basic development. Joe ---Original Message--- From: John Wilker [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 01/06/03 11:29 PM To: CF-Talk [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: certification experiences/plans? I've never been asked or told my score. I think if someone asked they'd be in the same group as the testers LOL J. John Wilker Web Applications Consultant, Writer Macromedia Certified ColdFusion Developer Founder/President IE CFUG www.red-omega.com Whatever is wrong it is better than a poke in the eye with a sharp stick. Unless of course you just got poked in the eye with a sharp stick. -Original Message- From: Jeffry Houser [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Monday, January 06, 2003 8:28 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: certification experiences/plans? At 09:59 PM 1/6/2003 -0500, you wrote: I think the CF exam is a much better indicator. Be warned though that certification can actually hurt you. If you're not certified, then the employer just doesn't have that quantifier. However, if you're certified and list that you're certified, they'll likely ask your score. If you barely passed, then it can look worse than not being certified. Wouldn't that fall under NDA ? I don't remember. I don't know if I would want to work under any employer who placed importance on my score. -- Jeffry Houser | mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] DotComIt, Putting you on the web AIM: Reboog711 | Phone: 1-203-379-0773 -- My CFMX Book: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0072225564/instantcoldfu-20 My Books: http://www.instantcoldfusion.com -- Ask me how to get a free recording of your band -- Original Energetic Acoustic Rock: http://www.farcryfly.com 80's, 90's, and Now: http://www.mtmexperience.com ~| Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/index.cfm?forumid=4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/index.cfm?method=subscribeforumid=4 FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Your ad could be here. Monies from ads go to support these lists and provide more resources for the community. http://www.fusionauthority.com/ads.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
Alternative to cert -- MIS/MBA/MSCS/etc (WAS Re: certification experiences/plans?)
Wow -- this has been a great thread -- thanks for all the comments. I have to agree I'm pretty cynical about the certs -- I had written two books and been doing ColdFusion for 4 years before I took the time to certify (and I remember sending the partners@mm folks a nasty letter when they told me I had to certify to stay in the program once MM bought Allaire -- we all don't have cert centers in our immediate vicinity nor the inclination to pay $$ and time to pass a pretty basic exam). But I have found with several government-related jobs, both US and German, that there's two boxes to check: CS degree or MCSE. (In one situation, the project was CF/Oracle and the requirement was CS or MCSE... go figure). No matter how much the tech folks push, the bureaucrat requires the box be checked. (Now one may wonder if the job is worthwhile if a bureaucrat makes the decision but that's another thread altogether :) The other thing I've found is that it's much harder to compete against CS grads if you're not one. I've been doing programming for 20 years, starting in high school, getting two degrees and spending significant doctoral program time doing all sorts of programming. Written books, taught courses/seminars, the whole nine yards. But the HR folks get 100s of resumes for some of the positions and it's hard to make a case for yourself if they sieve you out based on the search criteria (of course if they're that superficial, it might not be the best job...) So certfication (particularly for the development world) comes down to two major goals: 1) Prove you understand the technology from a specific vendor (MCSE, etc) 2) Prove you are a capable CS person (traditional degree) Certainly the 2nd would tend to be the preferred person for all but very narrow, compartmentalized jobs. So the questions then becomes What alternatives to 4 years back in school are there? Executive MIS/MBA/MSCS degrees, particularly fit the bill. High cost, large commitment of time and effort. Clearly better longterm solution than certs. Is this the preferred way to round out your professional credentials? Time for some more discussion :) Regards, John Paul Ashenfelter CTO/Transitionpoint [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Original Message - From: Cathy Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: CF-Talk [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, January 07, 2003 10:29 AM Subject: certification experiences/plans? Crud, my email server is down, so hopefully this will post through the website! Anyway, here's what I tried sending this morning. Ok, in my experience (cynical as well)... I've never been turned down due to a lack of degree or lack or certifications - I've always been hired/promoted based on my skills and experience. I did, however, get a CF 5 cert because when I raised my rates this fiscal year (I'm an independent contractor), I was told I didn't qualify for the rate unless I was certified in something (anything) or had a degree. So I ran out and got certified in the one thing I thought I could pass pretty easily (and I did). I think there is a small percentage of the population that technical stuff comes easily to - you know, people with that certain knack who just get it when stuff comes their way and can chunk through anything whether they've seen it before or not (much of this list probably falls into that category). There is no way to screen that when hiring based on a resume, degree, or list of certifications someone has. I know, I've hired several complete duds who looked great on paper. If you've got that knack, employers will recognize that (after you're hired, of course) and keep/promote you. (That said, I am working on my MIS degree right now mostly for fun rather than any career goals - I'm perfectly happy with my career.) My husband also does not have a degree and was one test shy of a CNE years ago - he has no other certifications. He has never lacked for good contracts either, owns our consulting firm, and is highly respected in the technical field. A newbie - no weight - they can be groomed, particularly if they have aforesaid knack (I once had a great 21 year old tech under me - only downside was he was a bit flaky due to age and partying) The other two I would hire based on experience and references. JMHO! Cathy Subject: certification experiences/plans? From: Rob Rohan [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Mon, 6 Jan 2003 17:17:04 -0800 Thread: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/index.cfm?method=messagesthreadid=202 55forumid=4#102369 ~| Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/index.cfm?forumid=4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/index.cfm?method=subscribeforumid=4 FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Signup for the Fusion Authority news alert and keep up with the latest news in ColdFusion and related topics. http://www.fusionauthority.com/signup.cfm Unsubscribe:
Re: certification experiences/plans?
Matt, Well, not to be a pain, but you potentially did pay for it -- in the extra $1200 it cost for the Alliance program (vs. Associate). You get the 3 exams, internal-use Studio MX plus the marketing and other nice stuff like that above what the Associates get. And technically you're supposed to be certified to be eligible for the program (though it's not that hard to complain and get waived). You say po-ta-toe :) Regards, John Paul Ashenfelter CTO/Transitionpoint [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Original Message - From: Matt Liotta [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: CF-Talk [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, January 07, 2003 11:11 AM Subject: RE: certification experiences/plans? You can find the details about all the benefits of becoming a partner at http://spectra15.macromedia.com/overview/na_benefits.cfm. Matt Liotta President CEO Montara Software, Inc. http://www.montarasoftware.com/ 888-408-0900 x901 -Original Message- From: Bryan Stevenson [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Tuesday, January 07, 2003 11:09 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: certification experiences/plans? Whoa...I came in way late on this thread So is it being said that MM Partners get free certs? If so what partner level? how many certs? Bryan Stevenson B.Comm. VP Director of E-Commerce Development Electric Edge Systems Group Inc. t. 250.920.8830 e. [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Macromedia Associate Partner www.macromedia.com - Vancouver Island ColdFusion Users Group Founder Director www.cfug-vancouverisland.com - Original Message - From: Matt Liotta [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: CF-Talk [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, January 07, 2003 6:53 AM Subject: RE: certification experiences/plans? I don't know, but our partner level includes certification vouchers. Matt Liotta President CEO Montara Software, Inc. http://www.montarasoftware.com/ 888-408-0900 x901 -Original Message- From: Samuel Neff [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Monday, January 06, 2003 10:54 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: certification experiences/plans? For example, as a Macromedia partner my developers are required to be certified. However, as a partner our certifications are free, so there you go. -Matt Do all partners get free certifications or does it depend on your partner level? ~| Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/index.cfm?forumid=4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/index.cfm?method=subscribeforumid=4 FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Your ad could be here. Monies from ads go to support these lists and provide more resources for the community. http://www.fusionauthority.com/ads.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
Re: certification experiences/plans?
Some of the old-timers please correct me, but wasn't there a time when MM/Allaire put the actual scores up on the certified developers web page? I mean, I distinctly remember that Charlie Aerheart only got a 97 :) (though I also seem to remember it kept him at the top of the list) Regards, John Paul Ashenfelter CTO/Transitionpoint [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Original Message - From: John Wilker [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: CF-Talk [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, January 06, 2003 11:29 PM Subject: RE: certification experiences/plans? I've never been asked or told my score. I think if someone asked they'd be in the same group as the testers LOL J. John Wilker Web Applications Consultant, Writer Macromedia Certified ColdFusion Developer Founder/President IE CFUG www.red-omega.com Whatever is wrong it is better than a poke in the eye with a sharp stick. Unless of course you just got poked in the eye with a sharp stick. -Original Message- From: Jeffry Houser [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Monday, January 06, 2003 8:28 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: certification experiences/plans? At 09:59 PM 1/6/2003 -0500, you wrote: I think the CF exam is a much better indicator. Be warned though that certification can actually hurt you. If you're not certified, then the employer just doesn't have that quantifier. However, if you're certified and list that you're certified, they'll likely ask your score. If you barely passed, then it can look worse than not being certified. Wouldn't that fall under NDA ? I don't remember. I don't know if I would want to work under any employer who placed importance on my score. -- Jeffry Houser | mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] DotComIt, Putting you on the web AIM: Reboog711 | Phone: 1-203-379-0773 -- My CFMX Book: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0072225564/instantcoldfu-20 My Books: http://www.instantcoldfusion.com -- Ask me how to get a free recording of your band -- Original Energetic Acoustic Rock: http://www.farcryfly.com 80's, 90's, and Now: http://www.mtmexperience.com ~| Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/index.cfm?forumid=4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/index.cfm?method=subscribeforumid=4 FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Signup for the Fusion Authority news alert and keep up with the latest news in ColdFusion and related topics. http://www.fusionauthority.com/signup.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
RE: certification experiences/plans?
Well there are no free lunches... Seriously though, I didn't personally pay for my certification even though I could obtain personal benefit from it. Matt Liotta President CEO Montara Software, Inc. http://www.montarasoftware.com/ 888-408-0900 x901 -Original Message- From: John Paul Ashenfelter [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Tuesday, January 07, 2003 1:34 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: certification experiences/plans? Matt, Well, not to be a pain, but you potentially did pay for it -- in the extra $1200 it cost for the Alliance program (vs. Associate). You get the 3 exams, internal-use Studio MX plus the marketing and other nice stuff like that above what the Associates get. And technically you're supposed to be certified to be eligible for the program (though it's not that hard to complain and get waived). You say po-ta-toe :) Regards, John Paul Ashenfelter CTO/Transitionpoint [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Original Message - From: Matt Liotta [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: CF-Talk [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, January 07, 2003 11:11 AM Subject: RE: certification experiences/plans? You can find the details about all the benefits of becoming a partner at http://spectra15.macromedia.com/overview/na_benefits.cfm. Matt Liotta President CEO Montara Software, Inc. http://www.montarasoftware.com/ 888-408-0900 x901 -Original Message- From: Bryan Stevenson [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Tuesday, January 07, 2003 11:09 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: certification experiences/plans? Whoa...I came in way late on this thread So is it being said that MM Partners get free certs? If so what partner level? how many certs? Bryan Stevenson B.Comm. VP Director of E-Commerce Development Electric Edge Systems Group Inc. t. 250.920.8830 e. [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Macromedia Associate Partner www.macromedia.com - Vancouver Island ColdFusion Users Group Founder Director www.cfug-vancouverisland.com - Original Message - From: Matt Liotta [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: CF-Talk [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, January 07, 2003 6:53 AM Subject: RE: certification experiences/plans? I don't know, but our partner level includes certification vouchers. Matt Liotta President CEO Montara Software, Inc. http://www.montarasoftware.com/ 888-408-0900 x901 -Original Message- From: Samuel Neff [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Monday, January 06, 2003 10:54 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: certification experiences/plans? For example, as a Macromedia partner my developers are required to be certified. However, as a partner our certifications are free, so there you go. -Matt Do all partners get free certifications or does it depend on your partner level? ~| Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/index.cfm?forumid=4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/index.cfm?method=subscribeforumid=4 FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Your ad could be here. Monies from ads go to support these lists and provide more resources for the community. http://www.fusionauthority.com/ads.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
building cert tests (WAS Re: certification experiences/plans?)
Boy, do I agree. I took the Brainbench MS-SQL exams to asses whether they'd be useful for evaluating the SQL knowledge of some candidates for a enterprise reporting group. I distinctly remember that there were 3 questions on Oracle to MS-SQL migrations (out of 40), including How do you install it. What a waste. And then look at the statistics -- I scored 3.7 out of 5 which was also the 89% percentile. Visualize a very steep spike instead of a bell curve to understand what the distribution of scores must resemble. I will say, having written exam questions for another online company (hey, I was young and needed the money), that it is very hard to write useful questions within the parameters these companies give you. You can write some good ones, no doubt. But if I remember, it was something like $500 for 100 questions and each question had to have a right answer, 3 wrongs, and a close answer that got partial credit. And then there's the whole fitting it into the domains of knowledge that the test developer designed. Oh, and it's plain text and the potential for one image, but you have to create it yourself (me!=artist). I thought it would be a good review for me, and it was, but it's not easy to write a *good* exam with only multiple choice questions for a topic that's much more essay/practicum oriented. Thus the move in several high-level certification worlds towards hands-on testing (Cisco, Oracle for example). Regards, John Paul Ashenfelter CTO/Transitionpoint [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Original Message - From: John Wilker [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: CF-Talk [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, January 06, 2003 10:10 PM Subject: RE: certification experiences/plans? That's one thing about on the spot tests and certifications and what not. I keep a lot of junk rattling around in my brain some useful some not, but there's just no way I can remember all the attributes of a given tag. I just can't. I know where to look to find the information though and can get the answers pretty darn quick. I think having instant recall on such things as all the attributes of a tag or all the cgi server variables is not that impressive but that sure makes it easier to take the cert exams. I usually don't take those tests when interviewers ask. When I'm in my cube I won't be being timed and I will have my books, notes, listservs and whatever other tools I use available. So the, how would I...? exams right there with x number of people staring at you is just frustrating. J. John Wilker Web Applications Consultant, Writer Macromedia Certified ColdFusion Developer Founder/President IE CFUG www.red-omega.com Whatever is wrong it is better than a poke in the eye with a sharp stick. Unless of course you just got poked in the eye with a sharp stick. -Original Message- From: Jeffry Houser [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Monday, January 06, 2003 6:51 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: certification experiences/plans? At 06:18 PM 1/6/2003 -0800, you wrote: Some haven't cared and some have wanted me to take a brainbench exam on the spot. I took one such of these test ( Not BrainBench, but a company that escapes me ) and the questions asked were so vague / detached from real development it was very frustrating. One question I remember was How many possible values are there for the X attribute of Y tag? In what real world situation would that come up? Never!For example, I may know that the cfobject tag can be used for creating an instance of specific objects (COM, Corba, Web Service, etc.. ) but that doesn't mean I know ( or even need to know ) how many valid values there are for the type attribute of the cfobject tag. -- Jeffry Houser | mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] DotComIt, Putting you on the web AIM: Reboog711 | Phone: 1-203-379-0773 -- My CFMX Book: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0072225564/instantcoldfu-20 My Books: http://www.instantcoldfusion.com -- Ask me how to get a free recording of your band -- Original Energetic Acoustic Rock: http://www.farcryfly.com 80's, 90's, and Now: http://www.mtmexperience.com ~| Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/index.cfm?forumid=4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/index.cfm?method=subscribeforumid=4 FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Your ad could be here. Monies from ads go to support these lists and provide more resources for the community. http://www.fusionauthority.com/ads.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
Re: certification experiences/plans?
Actually, I can think of a much better reason -- MM bought Allaire and the publishing companies recognized that MM, and that Flash are popular. I did the Dummies book for 4.x (which I'm pretty glad is dead and gone) and also coauthored the CFMX one. IDG skipped CF 5.0 for the Dummies series. O'Reilly was pretty late to the game with Rob's great book. Ben owned the market :) I was only sorta' enthusiastic about doing the CFMX for Dummies because the market is pretty saturated this time around -- when I took the contract, there were over 30+ upcoming CFMX books on Amazon. Since then, some have been killed but no doubt many more publishing lines were involved this time than CF 4/4.5/5. I have trouble believing that there's a corresponding increase in the number of folks using ColdFusion (and thus the market). Sales numbers have been pretty flat (~1000/month) for a Dummies book. Of course it came out in Sept which was a few months past the initial excitement. I did, however, enjoy getting the chance to redo the dummies book from scratch :) Regards, John Paul Ashenfelter CTO/Transitionpoint [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Original Message - From: Jeffry Houser [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: CF-Talk [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, January 06, 2003 11:25 PM Subject: RE: certification experiences/plans? At 09:52 PM 1/6/2003 -0500, you wrote: Anyone else notice how many new books are hitting the markets these days? For CFMX, there are 24 listed on Amazon.com, with ~7 coming from Forta / Macromedia. ( Rough Estimate on the Macromedia books ) The reason for more books on CFMX than any other? Two factors I can think of our the Macromedia Realty ColdFusion series ( 4 books that didn't previously exist) and New Riders jumping onto the CF Bandwagon (I believe they also published 4 books). Osborne on the other hand, published 4 books on CF 5, but only one on CFMX. -- Jeffry Houser | mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] DotComIt, Putting you on the web AIM: Reboog711 | Phone: 1-203-379-0773 -- My CFMX Book: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0072225564/instantcoldfu-20 My Books: http://www.instantcoldfusion.com -- Ask me how to get a free recording of your band -- Original Energetic Acoustic Rock: http://www.farcryfly.com 80's, 90's, and Now: http://www.mtmexperience.com ~| Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/index.cfm?forumid=4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/index.cfm?method=subscribeforumid=4 FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Your ad could be here. Monies from ads go to support these lists and provide more resources for the community. http://www.fusionauthority.com/ads.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
RE: building cert tests (WAS Re: certification experiences/plans?)
My favorite interview technique is to provide the candidate with a program written in a language they aren't familiar with and ask them to debug a problem. Of course I don't expect them solve it, but I like to watch how they going about attempting. Matt Liotta President CEO Montara Software, Inc. http://www.montarasoftware.com/ 888-408-0900 x901 -Original Message- From: John Paul Ashenfelter [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Tuesday, January 07, 2003 1:43 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: building cert tests (WAS Re: certification experiences/plans?) Boy, do I agree. I took the Brainbench MS-SQL exams to asses whether they'd be useful for evaluating the SQL knowledge of some candidates for a enterprise reporting group. I distinctly remember that there were 3 questions on Oracle to MS-SQL migrations (out of 40), including How do you install it. What a waste. And then look at the statistics -- I scored 3.7 out of 5 which was also the 89% percentile. Visualize a very steep spike instead of a bell curve to understand what the distribution of scores must resemble. I will say, having written exam questions for another online company (hey, I was young and needed the money), that it is very hard to write useful questions within the parameters these companies give you. You can write some good ones, no doubt. But if I remember, it was something like $500 for 100 questions and each question had to have a right answer, 3 wrongs, and a close answer that got partial credit. And then there's the whole fitting it into the domains of knowledge that the test developer designed. Oh, and it's plain text and the potential for one image, but you have to create it yourself (me!=artist). I thought it would be a good review for me, and it was, but it's not easy to write a *good* exam with only multiple choice questions for a topic that's much more essay/practicum oriented. Thus the move in several high-level certification worlds towards hands-on testing (Cisco, Oracle for example). Regards, John Paul Ashenfelter CTO/Transitionpoint [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Original Message - From: John Wilker [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: CF-Talk [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, January 06, 2003 10:10 PM Subject: RE: certification experiences/plans? That's one thing about on the spot tests and certifications and what not. I keep a lot of junk rattling around in my brain some useful some not, but there's just no way I can remember all the attributes of a given tag. I just can't. I know where to look to find the information though and can get the answers pretty darn quick. I think having instant recall on such things as all the attributes of a tag or all the cgi server variables is not that impressive but that sure makes it easier to take the cert exams. I usually don't take those tests when interviewers ask. When I'm in my cube I won't be being timed and I will have my books, notes, listservs and whatever other tools I use available. So the, how would I...? exams right there with x number of people staring at you is just frustrating. J. John Wilker Web Applications Consultant, Writer Macromedia Certified ColdFusion Developer Founder/President IE CFUG www.red-omega.com Whatever is wrong it is better than a poke in the eye with a sharp stick. Unless of course you just got poked in the eye with a sharp stick. -Original Message- From: Jeffry Houser [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Monday, January 06, 2003 6:51 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: certification experiences/plans? At 06:18 PM 1/6/2003 -0800, you wrote: Some haven't cared and some have wanted me to take a brainbench exam on the spot. I took one such of these test ( Not BrainBench, but a company that escapes me ) and the questions asked were so vague / detached from real development it was very frustrating. One question I remember was How many possible values are there for the X attribute of Y tag? In what real world situation would that come up? Never!For example, I may know that the cfobject tag can be used for creating an instance of specific objects (COM, Corba, Web Service, etc.. ) but that doesn't mean I know ( or even need to know ) how many valid values there are for the type attribute of the cfobject tag. -- Jeffry Houser | mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] DotComIt, Putting you on the web AIM: Reboog711 | Phone: 1-203-379-0773 -- My CFMX Book: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0072225564/instantcoldfu-20 My Books: http://www.instantcoldfusion.com -- Ask me how to get a free recording of your band -- Original Energetic Acoustic Rock: http://www.farcryfly.com 80's, 90's, and Now: http://www.mtmexperience.com ~| Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/index.cfm?forumid=4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com
Re: certification experiences/plans?
So Johnare you saying if you're a partner and not certified you should be able to get MM to waive your exam and certify you?? Bryan Stevenson B.Comm. VP Director of E-Commerce Development Electric Edge Systems Group Inc. t. 250.920.8830 e. [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Macromedia Associate Partner www.macromedia.com - Vancouver Island ColdFusion Users Group Founder Director www.cfug-vancouverisland.com - Original Message - From: John Paul Ashenfelter [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: CF-Talk [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, January 07, 2003 10:34 AM Subject: Re: certification experiences/plans? Matt, Well, not to be a pain, but you potentially did pay for it -- in the extra $1200 it cost for the Alliance program (vs. Associate). You get the 3 exams, internal-use Studio MX plus the marketing and other nice stuff like that above what the Associates get. And technically you're supposed to be certified to be eligible for the program (though it's not that hard to complain and get waived). You say po-ta-toe :) Regards, John Paul Ashenfelter CTO/Transitionpoint [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Original Message - From: Matt Liotta [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: CF-Talk [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, January 07, 2003 11:11 AM Subject: RE: certification experiences/plans? You can find the details about all the benefits of becoming a partner at http://spectra15.macromedia.com/overview/na_benefits.cfm. Matt Liotta President CEO Montara Software, Inc. http://www.montarasoftware.com/ 888-408-0900 x901 -Original Message- From: Bryan Stevenson [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Tuesday, January 07, 2003 11:09 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: certification experiences/plans? Whoa...I came in way late on this thread So is it being said that MM Partners get free certs? If so what partner level? how many certs? Bryan Stevenson B.Comm. VP Director of E-Commerce Development Electric Edge Systems Group Inc. t. 250.920.8830 e. [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Macromedia Associate Partner www.macromedia.com - Vancouver Island ColdFusion Users Group Founder Director www.cfug-vancouverisland.com - Original Message - From: Matt Liotta [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: CF-Talk [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, January 07, 2003 6:53 AM Subject: RE: certification experiences/plans? I don't know, but our partner level includes certification vouchers. Matt Liotta President CEO Montara Software, Inc. http://www.montarasoftware.com/ 888-408-0900 x901 -Original Message- From: Samuel Neff [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Monday, January 06, 2003 10:54 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: certification experiences/plans? For example, as a Macromedia partner my developers are required to be certified. However, as a partner our certifications are free, so there you go. -Matt Do all partners get free certifications or does it depend on your partner level? ~| Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/index.cfm?forumid=4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/index.cfm?method=subscribeforumid=4 FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq This list and all House of Fusion resources hosted by CFHosting.com. The place for dependable ColdFusion Hosting. Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
Re: building cert tests (WAS Re: certification experiences/plans?)
ah...very good technique Matt...I'll have to add that one to my arsenal ;-) Bryan Stevenson B.Comm. VP Director of E-Commerce Development Electric Edge Systems Group Inc. t. 250.920.8830 e. [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Macromedia Associate Partner www.macromedia.com - Vancouver Island ColdFusion Users Group Founder Director www.cfug-vancouverisland.com - Original Message - From: Matt Liotta [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: CF-Talk [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, January 07, 2003 10:41 AM Subject: RE: building cert tests (WAS Re: certification experiences/plans?) My favorite interview technique is to provide the candidate with a program written in a language they aren't familiar with and ask them to debug a problem. Of course I don't expect them solve it, but I like to watch how they going about attempting. Matt Liotta President CEO Montara Software, Inc. http://www.montarasoftware.com/ 888-408-0900 x901 -Original Message- From: John Paul Ashenfelter [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Tuesday, January 07, 2003 1:43 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: building cert tests (WAS Re: certification experiences/plans?) Boy, do I agree. I took the Brainbench MS-SQL exams to asses whether they'd be useful for evaluating the SQL knowledge of some candidates for a enterprise reporting group. I distinctly remember that there were 3 questions on Oracle to MS-SQL migrations (out of 40), including How do you install it. What a waste. And then look at the statistics -- I scored 3.7 out of 5 which was also the 89% percentile. Visualize a very steep spike instead of a bell curve to understand what the distribution of scores must resemble. I will say, having written exam questions for another online company (hey, I was young and needed the money), that it is very hard to write useful questions within the parameters these companies give you. You can write some good ones, no doubt. But if I remember, it was something like $500 for 100 questions and each question had to have a right answer, 3 wrongs, and a close answer that got partial credit. And then there's the whole fitting it into the domains of knowledge that the test developer designed. Oh, and it's plain text and the potential for one image, but you have to create it yourself (me!=artist). I thought it would be a good review for me, and it was, but it's not easy to write a *good* exam with only multiple choice questions for a topic that's much more essay/practicum oriented. Thus the move in several high-level certification worlds towards hands-on testing (Cisco, Oracle for example). Regards, John Paul Ashenfelter CTO/Transitionpoint [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Original Message - From: John Wilker [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: CF-Talk [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, January 06, 2003 10:10 PM Subject: RE: certification experiences/plans? That's one thing about on the spot tests and certifications and what not. I keep a lot of junk rattling around in my brain some useful some not, but there's just no way I can remember all the attributes of a given tag. I just can't. I know where to look to find the information though and can get the answers pretty darn quick. I think having instant recall on such things as all the attributes of a tag or all the cgi server variables is not that impressive but that sure makes it easier to take the cert exams. I usually don't take those tests when interviewers ask. When I'm in my cube I won't be being timed and I will have my books, notes, listservs and whatever other tools I use available. So the, how would I...? exams right there with x number of people staring at you is just frustrating. J. John Wilker Web Applications Consultant, Writer Macromedia Certified ColdFusion Developer Founder/President IE CFUG www.red-omega.com Whatever is wrong it is better than a poke in the eye with a sharp stick. Unless of course you just got poked in the eye with a sharp stick. -Original Message- From: Jeffry Houser [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Monday, January 06, 2003 6:51 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: certification experiences/plans? At 06:18 PM 1/6/2003 -0800, you wrote: Some haven't cared and some have wanted me to take a brainbench exam on the spot. I took one such of these test ( Not BrainBench, but a company that escapes me ) and the questions asked were so vague / detached from real development it was very frustrating. One question I remember was How many possible values are there for the X attribute of Y tag? In what real world situation would that come up? Never!For example, I may know that the cfobject tag can be used for creating an instance of specific objects
Re: building cert tests (WAS Re: certification experiences/plans?)
That's an excellent point -- and one we did a variation of: I'm giving candidates a simple concept, but poorly written SQL stored proc actually build by the current reporting team and asking them what they think of it and how'd they'd improve it. Again, goes to show essay questions (effectively) are much better than ABCDE or true/false. Regards, John Paul Ashenfelter CTO/Transitionpoint [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Original Message - From: Matt Liotta [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: CF-Talk [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, January 07, 2003 1:41 PM Subject: RE: building cert tests (WAS Re: certification experiences/plans?) My favorite interview technique is to provide the candidate with a program written in a language they aren't familiar with and ask them to debug a problem. Of course I don't expect them solve it, but I like to watch how they going about attempting. Matt Liotta President CEO Montara Software, Inc. http://www.montarasoftware.com/ 888-408-0900 x901 -Original Message- From: John Paul Ashenfelter [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Tuesday, January 07, 2003 1:43 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: building cert tests (WAS Re: certification experiences/plans?) Boy, do I agree. I took the Brainbench MS-SQL exams to asses whether they'd be useful for evaluating the SQL knowledge of some candidates for a enterprise reporting group. I distinctly remember that there were 3 questions on Oracle to MS-SQL migrations (out of 40), including How do you install it. What a waste. And then look at the statistics -- I scored 3.7 out of 5 which was also the 89% percentile. Visualize a very steep spike instead of a bell curve to understand what the distribution of scores must resemble. I will say, having written exam questions for another online company (hey, I was young and needed the money), that it is very hard to write useful questions within the parameters these companies give you. You can write some good ones, no doubt. But if I remember, it was something like $500 for 100 questions and each question had to have a right answer, 3 wrongs, and a close answer that got partial credit. And then there's the whole fitting it into the domains of knowledge that the test developer designed. Oh, and it's plain text and the potential for one image, but you have to create it yourself (me!=artist). I thought it would be a good review for me, and it was, but it's not easy to write a *good* exam with only multiple choice questions for a topic that's much more essay/practicum oriented. Thus the move in several high-level certification worlds towards hands-on testing (Cisco, Oracle for example). Regards, John Paul Ashenfelter CTO/Transitionpoint [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Original Message - From: John Wilker [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: CF-Talk [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, January 06, 2003 10:10 PM Subject: RE: certification experiences/plans? That's one thing about on the spot tests and certifications and what not. I keep a lot of junk rattling around in my brain some useful some not, but there's just no way I can remember all the attributes of a given tag. I just can't. I know where to look to find the information though and can get the answers pretty darn quick. I think having instant recall on such things as all the attributes of a tag or all the cgi server variables is not that impressive but that sure makes it easier to take the cert exams. I usually don't take those tests when interviewers ask. When I'm in my cube I won't be being timed and I will have my books, notes, listservs and whatever other tools I use available. So the, how would I...? exams right there with x number of people staring at you is just frustrating. J. John Wilker Web Applications Consultant, Writer Macromedia Certified ColdFusion Developer Founder/President IE CFUG www.red-omega.com Whatever is wrong it is better than a poke in the eye with a sharp stick. Unless of course you just got poked in the eye with a sharp stick. -Original Message- From: Jeffry Houser [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Monday, January 06, 2003 6:51 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: certification experiences/plans? At 06:18 PM 1/6/2003 -0800, you wrote: Some haven't cared and some have wanted me to take a brainbench exam on the spot. I took one such of these test ( Not BrainBench, but a company that escapes me ) and the questions asked were so vague / detached from real development it was very frustrating. One question I remember was How many possible values are there for the X attribute of Y tag? In what real world situation would that come up? Never!For example, I may know that the cfobject tag can be used for creating an instance of specific objects (COM, Corba, Web Service, etc.. ) but that doesn't
Re: certification experiences/plans?
I'm saying you shouldn't have to be *certified* to be a partner, if you've got equivalent skills. When I complained (last year) to MM that I didn't want to waste a day getting certified (travel to and from) when I was already an existing partner, an author, and a CF developer of 3+ years they said that or equivalent was OK. That's fine, but the website for partnership say 1 Certified when certification for specified product is available at least for solution providers But have to admit, I caved. When I was in DC for CFUN-02, I took advantage of a nearby test center and did a walkin to get the (Advanced, no less) cert. Regards, John Paul Ashenfelter CTO/Transitionpoint [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Original Message - From: Bryan Stevenson [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: CF-Talk [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, January 07, 2003 1:52 PM Subject: Re: certification experiences/plans? So Johnare you saying if you're a partner and not certified you should be able to get MM to waive your exam and certify you?? Bryan Stevenson B.Comm. VP Director of E-Commerce Development Electric Edge Systems Group Inc. t. 250.920.8830 e. [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Macromedia Associate Partner www.macromedia.com - Vancouver Island ColdFusion Users Group Founder Director www.cfug-vancouverisland.com - Original Message - From: John Paul Ashenfelter [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: CF-Talk [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, January 07, 2003 10:34 AM Subject: Re: certification experiences/plans? Matt, Well, not to be a pain, but you potentially did pay for it -- in the extra $1200 it cost for the Alliance program (vs. Associate). You get the 3 exams, internal-use Studio MX plus the marketing and other nice stuff like that above what the Associates get. And technically you're supposed to be certified to be eligible for the program (though it's not that hard to complain and get waived). You say po-ta-toe :) Regards, John Paul Ashenfelter CTO/Transitionpoint [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Original Message - From: Matt Liotta [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: CF-Talk [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, January 07, 2003 11:11 AM Subject: RE: certification experiences/plans? You can find the details about all the benefits of becoming a partner at http://spectra15.macromedia.com/overview/na_benefits.cfm. Matt Liotta President CEO Montara Software, Inc. http://www.montarasoftware.com/ 888-408-0900 x901 -Original Message- From: Bryan Stevenson [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Tuesday, January 07, 2003 11:09 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: certification experiences/plans? Whoa...I came in way late on this thread So is it being said that MM Partners get free certs? If so what partner level? how many certs? Bryan Stevenson B.Comm. VP Director of E-Commerce Development Electric Edge Systems Group Inc. t. 250.920.8830 e. [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Macromedia Associate Partner www.macromedia.com - Vancouver Island ColdFusion Users Group Founder Director www.cfug-vancouverisland.com - Original Message - From: Matt Liotta [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: CF-Talk [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, January 07, 2003 6:53 AM Subject: RE: certification experiences/plans? I don't know, but our partner level includes certification vouchers. Matt Liotta President CEO Montara Software, Inc. http://www.montarasoftware.com/ 888-408-0900 x901 -Original Message- From: Samuel Neff [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Monday, January 06, 2003 10:54 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: certification experiences/plans? For example, as a Macromedia partner my developers are required to be certified. However, as a partner our certifications are free, so there you go. -Matt Do all partners get free certifications or does it depend on your partner level? ~| Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/index.cfm?forumid=4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/index.cfm?method=subscribeforumid=4 FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Get the mailserver that powers this list at http://www.coolfusion.com Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
RE: building cert tests (WAS Re: certification experiences/plans?)
Assembly anyone? 8^) -- Mosh Teitelbaum evoch, LLC Tel: (301) 625-9191 Fax: (301) 933-3651 Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] WWW: http://www.evoch.com/ -Original Message- From: Matt Liotta [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Tuesday, January 07, 2003 1:42 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: building cert tests (WAS Re: certification experiences/plans?) My favorite interview technique is to provide the candidate with a program written in a language they aren't familiar with and ask them to debug a problem. Of course I don't expect them solve it, but I like to watch how they going about attempting. Matt Liotta President CEO Montara Software, Inc. http://www.montarasoftware.com/ 888-408-0900 x901 -Original Message- From: John Paul Ashenfelter [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Tuesday, January 07, 2003 1:43 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: building cert tests (WAS Re: certification experiences/plans?) Boy, do I agree. I took the Brainbench MS-SQL exams to asses whether they'd be useful for evaluating the SQL knowledge of some candidates for a enterprise reporting group. I distinctly remember that there were 3 questions on Oracle to MS-SQL migrations (out of 40), including How do you install it. What a waste. And then look at the statistics -- I scored 3.7 out of 5 which was also the 89% percentile. Visualize a very steep spike instead of a bell curve to understand what the distribution of scores must resemble. I will say, having written exam questions for another online company (hey, I was young and needed the money), that it is very hard to write useful questions within the parameters these companies give you. You can write some good ones, no doubt. But if I remember, it was something like $500 for 100 questions and each question had to have a right answer, 3 wrongs, and a close answer that got partial credit. And then there's the whole fitting it into the domains of knowledge that the test developer designed. Oh, and it's plain text and the potential for one image, but you have to create it yourself (me!=artist). I thought it would be a good review for me, and it was, but it's not easy to write a *good* exam with only multiple choice questions for a topic that's much more essay/practicum oriented. Thus the move in several high-level certification worlds towards hands-on testing (Cisco, Oracle for example). Regards, John Paul Ashenfelter CTO/Transitionpoint [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Original Message - From: John Wilker [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: CF-Talk [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, January 06, 2003 10:10 PM Subject: RE: certification experiences/plans? That's one thing about on the spot tests and certifications and what not. I keep a lot of junk rattling around in my brain some useful some not, but there's just no way I can remember all the attributes of a given tag. I just can't. I know where to look to find the information though and can get the answers pretty darn quick. I think having instant recall on such things as all the attributes of a tag or all the cgi server variables is not that impressive but that sure makes it easier to take the cert exams. I usually don't take those tests when interviewers ask. When I'm in my cube I won't be being timed and I will have my books, notes, listservs and whatever other tools I use available. So the, how would I...? exams right there with x number of people staring at you is just frustrating. J. John Wilker Web Applications Consultant, Writer Macromedia Certified ColdFusion Developer Founder/President IE CFUG www.red-omega.com Whatever is wrong it is better than a poke in the eye with a sharp stick. Unless of course you just got poked in the eye with a sharp stick. -Original Message- From: Jeffry Houser [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Monday, January 06, 2003 6:51 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: certification experiences/plans? At 06:18 PM 1/6/2003 -0800, you wrote: Some haven't cared and some have wanted me to take a brainbench exam on the spot. I took one such of these test ( Not BrainBench, but a company that escapes me ) and the questions asked were so vague / detached from real development it was very frustrating. One question I remember was How many possible values are there for the X attribute of Y tag? In what real world situation would that come up? Never!For example, I may know that the cfobject tag can be used for creating an instance of specific objects (COM, Corba, Web Service, etc.. ) but that doesn't mean I know ( or even need to know ) how many valid values there are for the type attribute of the cfobject tag. -- Jeffry Houser | mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] DotComIt, Putting you on the web AIM: Reboog711 | Phone: 1-203-379-0773 -- My
Re: building cert tests (WAS Re: certification experiences/plans?)
It really goes to show that taking tests do not insure that the candidate is knowledgable in area of expertise that they are claiming. Some people are just bad test takers, for example. Others ACE tests and memorize every imaginable syntax. I often find that the best way to assertain knowledge is to just talk tech. I recently interviewed someone who did that, and was certified. But when asked hypothetical problem solving questions, he could not deliver. Book smart but inexperienced, it is possible that this person may be able to produce good code. But I was not convinced. = = = Original message = = = That's an excellent point -- and one we did a variation of: I'm giving candidates a simple concept, but poorly written SQL stored proc actually build by the current reporting team and asking them what they think of it and how'd they'd improve it. Again, goes to show essay questions (effectively) are much better than ABCDE or true/false. Regards, John Paul Ashenfelter CTO/Transitionpoint [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Original Message - From: Matt Liotta [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: CF-Talk [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, January 07, 2003 1:41 PM Subject: RE: building cert tests (WAS Re: certification experiences/plans?) My favorite interview technique is to provide the candidate with a program written in a language they aren't familiar with and ask them to debug a problem. Of course I don't expect them solve it, but I like to watch how they going about attempting. Matt Liotta President CEO Montara Software, Inc. http://www.montarasoftware.com/ 888-408-0900 x901 -Original Message- From: John Paul Ashenfelter [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Tuesday, January 07, 2003 1:43 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: building cert tests (WAS Re: certification experiences/plans?) Boy, do I agree. I took the Brainbench MS-SQL exams to asses whether they'd be useful for evaluating the SQL knowledge of some candidates for a enterprise reporting group. I distinctly remember that there were 3 questions on Oracle to MS-SQL migrations (out of 40), including How do you install it. What a waste. And then look at the statistics -- I scored 3.7 out of 5 which was also the 89% percentile. Visualize a very steep spike instead of a bell curve to understand what the distribution of scores must resemble. I will say, having written exam questions for another online company (hey, I was young and needed the money), that it is very hard to write useful questions within the parameters these companies give you. You can write some good ones, no doubt. But if I remember, it was something like $500 for 100 questions and each question had to have a right answer, 3 wrongs, and a close answer that got partial credit. And then there's the whole fitting it into the domains of knowledge that the test developer designed. Oh, and it's plain text and the potential for one image, but you have to create it yourself (me!=artist). I thought it would be a good review for me, and it was, but it's not easy to write a *good* exam with only multiple choice questions for a topic that's much more essay/practicum oriented. Thus the move in several high-level certification worlds towards hands-on testing (Cisco, Oracle for example). Regards, John Paul Ashenfelter CTO/Transitionpoint [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Original Message - From: John Wilker [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: CF-Talk [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, January 06, 2003 10:10 PM Subject: RE: certification experiences/plans? That's one thing about on the spot tests and certifications and what not. I keep a lot of junk rattling around in my brain some useful some not, but there's just no way I can remember all the attributes of a given tag. I just can't. I know where to look to find the information though and can get the answers pretty darn quick. I think having instant recall on such things as all the attributes of a tag or all the cgi server variables is not that impressive but that sure makes it easier to take the cert exams. I usually don't take those tests when interviewers ask. When I'm in my cube I won't be being timed and I will have my books, notes, listservs and whatever other tools I use available. So the, how would I...? exams right there with x number of people staring at you is just frustrating. J. John Wilker Web Applications Consultant, Writer Macromedia Certified ColdFusion Developer Founder/President IE CFUG www.red-omega.com Whatever is wrong it is better than a poke in the eye with a sharp stick. Unless of course you just got poked in the eye with a sharp stick. -Original Message- From: Jeffry Houser [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Monday, January 06, 2003 6:51 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: certification experiences/plans? At 06:18 PM 1/6/2003 -0800, you wrote: Some haven't cared
