Re: Stus-List Boat insurance...reimbursement vs. depreciated
I guess they must have updated the application software. I had been covered for 3 years when they realized that Imzadi, my 38, was too big for their underwriting standards. I do admit that while I was covered, I was occasionally amused by the promotional messages that lauded how big a benefit it was that they covered road service on the trailer for my boat. After Progressive didn’t renew my policy a local agent placed me with Victoria, the marine insurance subsidiary of Nationwide. Good experience until they stopped insuring boats in North Carolina. Rick Brass Washington, NC From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of Bruce Whitmore via CnC-List Sent: Wednesday, November 13, 2019 9:16 PM To: Della Barba, Joe via CnC-List Cc: Bruce Whitmore Subject: Re: Stus-List Boat insurance...reimbursement vs. depreciated Interestingly I just tried Progressive, and they won't insure anything larger that 35'. Bruce Whitmore 1994 C 37/40+ "Astralis" (847) 404-5092 (mobile) bwhitm...@sbcglobal.net ___ Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions. Each and every one is greatly appreciated. If you want to support the list - use PayPal to send contribution -- https://www.paypal.me/stumurray
Re: Stus-List Boat insurance...reimbursement vs. depreciated
Guess that solves that problem. Bill Coleman Erie, PA From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of Bruce Whitmore via CnC-List Sent: Wednesday, November 13, 2019 9:16 PM To: Della Barba, Joe via CnC-List Cc: Bruce Whitmore Subject: Re: Stus-List Boat insurance...reimbursement vs. depreciated Interestingly I just tried Progressive, and they won't insure anything larger that 35'. Bruce Whitmore 1994 C 37/40+ "Astralis" (847) 404-5092 (mobile) bwhitm...@sbcglobal.net ___ Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions. Each and every one is greatly appreciated. If you want to support the list - use PayPal to send contribution -- https://www.paypal.me/stumurray
Re: Stus-List Boat insurance...reimbursement vs. depreciated
Interestingly I just tried Progressive, and they won't insure anything larger that 35'. Bruce Whitmore 1994 C 37/40+"Astralis" (847) 404-5092 (mobile) bwhitm...@sbcglobal.net ___ Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions. Each and every one is greatly appreciated. If you want to support the list - use PayPal to send contribution -- https://www.paypal.me/stumurray
Re: Stus-List Boat insurance...reimbursement vs. depreciated
Bill…check your policy language. Half the cost is very suspicious. David F. Risch (401) 419-4650 From: CnC-List On Behalf Of Bill Coleman via CnC-List Sent: Wednesday, November 13, 2019 9:33 AM To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com Cc: Bill Coleman Subject: Re: Stus-List Boat insurance...reimbursement vs. depreciated That almost sounds too good! Has anyone had any claims experience with Progressive? I currently have a car with them, and keep getting prods to insure a boat with them, but Flo is so pushy, it makes me suspicious . . . I am currently with One Beacon, and have nada clu as to what to expect from them should the need arise. But half the price of BoatUS. Bill Coleman Erie PA From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of Della Barba, Joe via CnC-List Sent: Wednesday, November 13, 2019 7:56 AM To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com<mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com> Cc: Della Barba, Joe Subject: Re: Stus-List Boat insurance...reimbursement vs. depreciated Progressive just had me fill out their forms. No survey and the value was what I filled in. I suspect they have an algorithm to flag people stating outrageous values. I di d get all three of my boats on Progressive for a bit less than BOATUS was for insuring just one. I have the C, an Avon RIB, and a Boston Whaler on for about $600/yr. BOATUS was high for the Whaler at $170/yr! They did cover the Avon as a dinghy to the big boat, but I decided I wanted the boat covered explicitly with Progressive. IIRC the Avon portion of the bill is about $60/yr and the Whaler is $70. Our marina requires insurance ever since a live-aboard had their boat sink and ran off, leaving an uninsured sunk boat for the marina to deal with. Joe Della Barba Coquina C 35 MK I www.dellabarba.com<http://www.dellabarba.com> From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of nausetbeach--- via CnC-List Sent: Tuesday, November 12, 2019 4:56 PM To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com<mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com> Cc: nausetbe...@optonline.net<mailto:nausetbe...@optonline.net> Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: Stus-List Boat insurance...reimbursement vs. depreciated For those who have relatively recently switched insurance [particularly from BoatUS / Geico] to another, were you required to get a new / recent survey as part of the process? Assuming the new policy is Agreed Value, how was that value set? It seems many have switched to Berkeley Rec Marine. Does anyone have actual claims experience with Berkeley? It does not appear from their website that Berkeley Marine requires a survey. I had a claim through Boat US back when it was CNA and the process was as straight forward as one could wish, no issues whatsoever. Even while repairs were underway additional damage was discovered - an estimate for the additional damage was sent in and a check was on its way. Thanks, Brian ___ Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions. Each and every one is greatly appreciated. If you want to support the list - use PayPal to send contribution -- https://www.paypal.me/stumurray
Re: Stus-List Boat insurance...reimbursement vs. depreciated
The only bad thing I have heard about Progressive was from someone hit by a freighter. The freighter didn’t hang around long, not like it hurt THEM very much, and Progressive was apparently clueless about tracking down their agent and getting paid by their insurance. Totally the freighter’s fault too, they got off course and hit some ANCHORED boats. Joe Della Barba Coquina C 35 MK I www.dellabarba.com From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of Bill Coleman via CnC-List Sent: Wednesday, November 13, 2019 9:33 AM To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com Cc: Bill Coleman Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: Stus-List Boat insurance...reimbursement vs. depreciated That almost sounds too good! Has anyone had any claims experience with Progressive? I currently have a car with them, and keep getting prods to insure a boat with them, but Flo is so pushy, it makes me suspicious . . . I am currently with One Beacon, and have nada clu as to what to expect from them should the need arise. But half the price of BoatUS. Bill Coleman Erie PA From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of Della Barba, Joe via CnC-List Sent: Wednesday, November 13, 2019 7:56 AM To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com<mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com> Cc: Della Barba, Joe Subject: Re: Stus-List Boat insurance...reimbursement vs. depreciated Progressive just had me fill out their forms. No survey and the value was what I filled in. I suspect they have an algorithm to flag people stating outrageous values. I di d get all three of my boats on Progressive for a bit less than BOATUS was for insuring just one. I have the C, an Avon RIB, and a Boston Whaler on for about $600/yr. BOATUS was high for the Whaler at $170/yr! They did cover the Avon as a dinghy to the big boat, but I decided I wanted the boat covered explicitly with Progressive. IIRC the Avon portion of the bill is about $60/yr and the Whaler is $70. Our marina requires insurance ever since a live-aboard had their boat sink and ran off, leaving an uninsured sunk boat for the marina to deal with. Joe Della Barba Coquina C 35 MK I www.dellabarba.com<https://protect2.fireeye.com/v1/url?k=0ceca84c-507ae0ec-0cec813b-0cc47adca788-97f4a658a93c46c5=1=da18892e-2c53-4784-8db9-6e0142417058=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.dellabarba.com%2F> From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of nausetbeach--- via CnC-List Sent: Tuesday, November 12, 2019 4:56 PM To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com<mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com> Cc: nausetbe...@optonline.net<mailto:nausetbe...@optonline.net> Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: Stus-List Boat insurance...reimbursement vs. depreciated For those who have relatively recently switched insurance [particularly from BoatUS / Geico] to another, were you required to get a new / recent survey as part of the process? Assuming the new policy is Agreed Value, how was that value set? It seems many have switched to Berkeley Rec Marine. Does anyone have actual claims experience with Berkeley? It does not appear from their website that Berkeley Marine requires a survey. I had a claim through Boat US back when it was CNA and the process was as straight forward as one could wish, no issues whatsoever. Even while repairs were underway additional damage was discovered - an estimate for the additional damage was sent in and a check was on its way. Thanks, Brian ___ Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions. Each and every one is greatly appreciated. If you want to support the list - use PayPal to send contribution -- https://www.paypal.me/stumurray
Re: Stus-List Boat insurance...reimbursement vs. depreciated
That almost sounds too good! Has anyone had any claims experience with Progressive? I currently have a car with them, and keep getting prods to insure a boat with them, but Flo is so pushy, it makes me suspicious . . . I am currently with One Beacon, and have nada clu as to what to expect from them should the need arise. But half the price of BoatUS. Bill Coleman Erie PA From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of Della Barba, Joe via CnC-List Sent: Wednesday, November 13, 2019 7:56 AM To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com Cc: Della Barba, Joe Subject: Re: Stus-List Boat insurance...reimbursement vs. depreciated Progressive just had me fill out their forms. No survey and the value was what I filled in. I suspect they have an algorithm to flag people stating outrageous values. I di d get all three of my boats on Progressive for a bit less than BOATUS was for insuring just one. I have the C, an Avon RIB, and a Boston Whaler on for about $600/yr. BOATUS was high for the Whaler at $170/yr! They did cover the Avon as a dinghy to the big boat, but I decided I wanted the boat covered explicitly with Progressive. IIRC the Avon portion of the bill is about $60/yr and the Whaler is $70. Our marina requires insurance ever since a live-aboard had their boat sink and ran off, leaving an uninsured sunk boat for the marina to deal with. Joe Della Barba Coquina C 35 MK I www.dellabarba.com From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of nausetbeach--- via CnC-List Sent: Tuesday, November 12, 2019 4:56 PM To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com Cc: nausetbe...@optonline.net Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: Stus-List Boat insurance...reimbursement vs. depreciated For those who have relatively recently switched insurance [particularly from BoatUS / Geico] to another, were you required to get a new / recent survey as part of the process? Assuming the new policy is Agreed Value, how was that value set? It seems many have switched to Berkeley Rec Marine. Does anyone have actual claims experience with Berkeley? It does not appear from their website that Berkeley Marine requires a survey. I had a claim through Boat US back when it was CNA and the process was as straight forward as one could wish, no issues whatsoever. Even while repairs were underway additional damage was discovered - an estimate for the additional damage was sent in and a check was on its way. Thanks, Brian ___ Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions. Each and every one is greatly appreciated. If you want to support the list - use PayPal to send contribution -- https://www.paypal.me/stumurray
Re: Stus-List Boat insurance...reimbursement vs. depreciated
Progressive just had me fill out their forms. No survey and the value was what I filled in. I suspect they have an algorithm to flag people stating outrageous values. I di d get all three of my boats on Progressive for a bit less than BOATUS was for insuring just one. I have the C, an Avon RIB, and a Boston Whaler on for about $600/yr. BOATUS was high for the Whaler at $170/yr! They did cover the Avon as a dinghy to the big boat, but I decided I wanted the boat covered explicitly with Progressive. IIRC the Avon portion of the bill is about $60/yr and the Whaler is $70. Our marina requires insurance ever since a live-aboard had their boat sink and ran off, leaving an uninsured sunk boat for the marina to deal with. Joe Della Barba Coquina C 35 MK I www.dellabarba.com From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of nausetbeach--- via CnC-List Sent: Tuesday, November 12, 2019 4:56 PM To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com Cc: nausetbe...@optonline.net Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: Stus-List Boat insurance...reimbursement vs. depreciated For those who have relatively recently switched insurance [particularly from BoatUS / Geico] to another, were you required to get a new / recent survey as part of the process? Assuming the new policy is Agreed Value, how was that value set? It seems many have switched to Berkeley Rec Marine. Does anyone have actual claims experience with Berkeley? It does not appear from their website that Berkeley Marine requires a survey. I had a claim through Boat US back when it was CNA and the process was as straight forward as one could wish, no issues whatsoever. Even while repairs were underway additional damage was discovered - an estimate for the additional damage was sent in and a check was on its way. Thanks, Brian ___ Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions. Each and every one is greatly appreciated. If you want to support the list - use PayPal to send contribution -- https://www.paypal.me/stumurray
Re: Stus-List Boat insurance...reimbursement vs. depreciated
When I switched from GEICO to Berkeley my survey for a rider was recent enough for coverage. By inference you will probably need another survey. Sent from my Android. Please forgive typos. Thank you. From: CnC-List on behalf of Neil Andersen via CnC-List Sent: Tuesday, November 12, 2019 6:02:31 PM To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com ; cnc-list@cnc-list.com Cc: Neil Andersen Subject: Re: Stus-List Boat insurance...reimbursement vs. depreciated Anyone know if CNA is still writing boat insurance policies? I too had a claim that they handled wonderfully (caused by another boat and a marina). Neil 1982 C 32, FoxFire Rock Hall, MD Neil Andersen 20691 Jamieson Rd Rock Hall, MD 21661 From: CnC-List on behalf of nausetbeach--- via CnC-List Sent: Tuesday, November 12, 2019 4:56 PM To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com Cc: nausetbe...@optonline.net Subject: Re: Stus-List Boat insurance...reimbursement vs. depreciated For those who have relatively recently switched insurance [particularly from BoatUS / Geico] to another, were you required to get a new / recent survey as part of the process? Assuming the new policy is Agreed Value, how was that value set? It seems many have switched to Berkeley Rec Marine. Does anyone have actual claims experience with Berkeley? It does not appear from their website that Berkeley Marine requires a survey. I had a claim through Boat US back when it was CNA and the process was as straight forward as one could wish, no issues whatsoever. Even while repairs were underway additional damage was discovered - an estimate for the additional damage was sent in and a check was on its way. Thanks, Brian From: CnC-List On Behalf Of David Risch via CnC-List Sent: Tuesday, November 12, 2019 3:51 PM To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com Cc: David Risch Subject: Re: Stus-List Boat insurance...reimbursement vs. depreciated As am I. I too danced on their heads about this substantial change to coverage WITHOUT notice. Berkeley ticked my boxes…replacement and riders available for offshore passages to Bermuda. From: CnC-List mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com>> On Behalf Of Bruce Whitmore via CnC-List Sent: Tuesday, November 12, 2019 1:29 PM To: cnc-list mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>> Cc: Bruce Whitmore mailto:bwhitm...@sbcglobal.net>> Subject: Re: Stus-List Boat insurance...reimbursement vs. depreciated Unfortunately the changes and problems started when Boat U.S. in 2007, and was exacerbated when coverage was transferred to GEICO (as opposed to CNA which used to issue the policies). I made a VERY STRONG argument to them about a 18 months ago when I found out they had not pointed out the depreciation provision during the quoting process. This is clearly a violation of insurance ethics, as they have a DUTY to point out the shortcomings in their policy. If I got screwed by their depreciation rules, I would pursue an Errors and Omissions / Bad Faith claim against them. Yes, I am in the industry, Bruce Whitmore 1994 C 37/40+ "Astralis" (847) 404-5092 (mobile) bwhitm...@sbcglobal.net<mailto:bwhitm...@sbcglobal.net> ___ Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions. Each and every one is greatly appreciated. If you want to support the list - use PayPal to send contribution -- https://www.paypal.me/stumurray
Re: Stus-List Boat insurance...reimbursement vs. depreciated
Anyone know if CNA is still writing boat insurance policies? I too had a claim that they handled wonderfully (caused by another boat and a marina). Neil 1982 C 32, FoxFire Rock Hall, MD Neil Andersen 20691 Jamieson Rd Rock Hall, MD 21661 From: CnC-List on behalf of nausetbeach--- via CnC-List Sent: Tuesday, November 12, 2019 4:56 PM To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com Cc: nausetbe...@optonline.net Subject: Re: Stus-List Boat insurance...reimbursement vs. depreciated For those who have relatively recently switched insurance [particularly from BoatUS / Geico] to another, were you required to get a new / recent survey as part of the process? Assuming the new policy is Agreed Value, how was that value set? It seems many have switched to Berkeley Rec Marine. Does anyone have actual claims experience with Berkeley? It does not appear from their website that Berkeley Marine requires a survey. I had a claim through Boat US back when it was CNA and the process was as straight forward as one could wish, no issues whatsoever. Even while repairs were underway additional damage was discovered - an estimate for the additional damage was sent in and a check was on its way. Thanks, Brian From: CnC-List On Behalf Of David Risch via CnC-List Sent: Tuesday, November 12, 2019 3:51 PM To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com Cc: David Risch Subject: Re: Stus-List Boat insurance...reimbursement vs. depreciated As am I. I too danced on their heads about this substantial change to coverage WITHOUT notice. Berkeley ticked my boxes…replacement and riders available for offshore passages to Bermuda. From: CnC-List mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com>> On Behalf Of Bruce Whitmore via CnC-List Sent: Tuesday, November 12, 2019 1:29 PM To: cnc-list mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>> Cc: Bruce Whitmore mailto:bwhitm...@sbcglobal.net>> Subject: Re: Stus-List Boat insurance...reimbursement vs. depreciated Unfortunately the changes and problems started when Boat U.S. in 2007, and was exacerbated when coverage was transferred to GEICO (as opposed to CNA which used to issue the policies). I made a VERY STRONG argument to them about a 18 months ago when I found out they had not pointed out the depreciation provision during the quoting process. This is clearly a violation of insurance ethics, as they have a DUTY to point out the shortcomings in their policy. If I got screwed by their depreciation rules, I would pursue an Errors and Omissions / Bad Faith claim against them. Yes, I am in the industry, Bruce Whitmore 1994 C 37/40+ "Astralis" (847) 404-5092 (mobile) bwhitm...@sbcglobal.net<mailto:bwhitm...@sbcglobal.net> ___ Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions. Each and every one is greatly appreciated. If you want to support the list - use PayPal to send contribution -- https://www.paypal.me/stumurray
Re: Stus-List Boat insurance...reimbursement vs. depreciated
I can say that we were treated wonderfully by AutoOwners with our dismasting experience on Corsair (Redwing 35, C 35-1). We originally went with AutoOwners in 1996 when we purchased Corsair because no other insurance company wanted to insure a 1970 hull. AutoOwners responded quickly, the agent was easy to work with and after the quote for full repair exceeded the agreed hull value they cut us a check and let us know the boat was still ours to repair or dispose. We chose to dispose. Our agreed to value payout was basically enough to buy our newer C 35-3. We insured our C 35-3 with Boat US since that was where she was already insured. When our Redwing policy was up for renewal, our insurance company contacted us and I told them I assumed they were done with us. They said definitely not and we changed our policy for the C 35-3 over to AutoOwners. There was no discussions with them over depreciation on the dismasting quote. The would have covered everything up to the agreed to hull value. AutoOwners has made me a convert. I have dealt with them for two house claims and the dismasting and they have been easy to work with (two different agents, one was my deceased Mother's house). Neil Schiller 1983 C 35-3, #028, "Grace" Whitehall, Michigan WLYC On 11/12/2019 4:55 PM, nausetbeach--- via CnC-List wrote: For those who have relatively recently switched insurance [particularly from BoatUS / Geico] to another, were you required to get a new / recent survey as part of the process? Assuming the new policy is Agreed Value, how was that value set? It seems many have switched to Berkeley Rec Marine. Does anyone have actual claims experience with Berkeley? It does not appear from their website that Berkeley Marine requires a survey. I had a claim through Boat US back when it was CNA and the process was as straight forward as one could wish, no issues whatsoever. Even while repairs were underway additional damage was discovered - an estimate for the additional damage was sent in and a check was on its way. Thanks, Brian *From:* CnC-List *On Behalf Of *David Risch via CnC-List *Sent:* Tuesday, November 12, 2019 3:51 PM *To:* cnc-list@cnc-list.com *Cc:* David Risch *Subject:* Re: Stus-List Boat insurance...reimbursement vs. depreciated As am I. I too danced on their heads about this substantial change to coverage WITHOUT notice. Berkeley ticked my boxes…replacement and riders available for offshore passages to Bermuda. *From:* CnC-List <mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com>> *On Behalf Of *Bruce Whitmore via CnC-List *Sent:* Tuesday, November 12, 2019 1:29 PM *To:* cnc-list mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>> *Cc:* Bruce Whitmore <mailto:bwhitm...@sbcglobal.net>> *Subject:* Re: Stus-List Boat insurance...reimbursement vs. depreciated Unfortunately the changes and problems started when Boat U.S. in 2007, and was exacerbated when coverage was transferred to GEICO (as opposed to CNA which used to issue the policies). I made a VERY STRONG argument to them about a 18 months ago when I found out they had not pointed out the depreciation provision during the quoting process. This is clearly a violation of insurance ethics, as they have a DUTY to point out the shortcomings in their policy. If I got screwed by their depreciation rules, I would pursue an Errors and Omissions / Bad Faith claim against them. Yes, I am in the industry, Bruce Whitmore 1994 C 37/40+ "Astralis" (847) 404-5092 (mobile) bwhitm...@sbcglobal.net <mailto:bwhitm...@sbcglobal.net> ___ Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions. Each and every one is greatly appreciated. If you want to support the list - use PayPal to send contribution -- https://www.paypal.me/stumurray ___ Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions. Each and every one is greatly appreciated. If you want to support the list - use PayPal to send contribution -- https://www.paypal.me/stumurray
Re: Stus-List Boat insurance...reimbursement vs. depreciated
For those who have relatively recently switched insurance [particularly from BoatUS / Geico] to another, were you required to get a new / recent survey as part of the process? Assuming the new policy is Agreed Value, how was that value set? It seems many have switched to Berkeley Rec Marine. Does anyone have actual claims experience with Berkeley? It does not appear from their website that Berkeley Marine requires a survey. I had a claim through Boat US back when it was CNA and the process was as straight forward as one could wish, no issues whatsoever. Even while repairs were underway additional damage was discovered - an estimate for the additional damage was sent in and a check was on its way. Thanks, Brian From: CnC-List On Behalf Of David Risch via CnC-List Sent: Tuesday, November 12, 2019 3:51 PM To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com Cc: David Risch Subject: Re: Stus-List Boat insurance...reimbursement vs. depreciated As am I. I too danced on their heads about this substantial change to coverage WITHOUT notice. Berkeley ticked my boxes…replacement and riders available for offshore passages to Bermuda. From: CnC-List mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com> > On Behalf Of Bruce Whitmore via CnC-List Sent: Tuesday, November 12, 2019 1:29 PM To: cnc-list mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com> > Cc: Bruce Whitmore mailto:bwhitm...@sbcglobal.net> > Subject: Re: Stus-List Boat insurance...reimbursement vs. depreciated Unfortunately the changes and problems started when Boat U.S. in 2007, and was exacerbated when coverage was transferred to GEICO (as opposed to CNA which used to issue the policies). I made a VERY STRONG argument to them about a 18 months ago when I found out they had not pointed out the depreciation provision during the quoting process. This is clearly a violation of insurance ethics, as they have a DUTY to point out the shortcomings in their policy. If I got screwed by their depreciation rules, I would pursue an Errors and Omissions / Bad Faith claim against them. Yes, I am in the industry, Bruce Whitmore 1994 C 37/40+ "Astralis" (847) 404-5092 (mobile) <mailto:bwhitm...@sbcglobal.net> bwhitm...@sbcglobal.net ___ Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions. Each and every one is greatly appreciated. If you want to support the list - use PayPal to send contribution -- https://www.paypal.me/stumurray
Re: Stus-List Boat insurance...reimbursement vs. depreciated
Want some fun reading? Google "GEICO complaints" or "Firestone complaints". No wonder GEICO advertises somuch. DennisC. Touche' 35-1 #83 Mandeville, LA ___ Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions. Each and every one is greatly appreciated. If you want to support the list - use PayPal to send contribution -- https://www.paypal.me/stumurray
Re: Stus-List Boat insurance...reimbursement vs. depreciated
As am I. I too danced on their heads about this substantial change to coverage WITHOUT notice. Berkeley ticked my boxes…replacement and riders available for offshore passages to Bermuda. From: CnC-List On Behalf Of Bruce Whitmore via CnC-List Sent: Tuesday, November 12, 2019 1:29 PM To: cnc-list Cc: Bruce Whitmore Subject: Re: Stus-List Boat insurance...reimbursement vs. depreciated Unfortunately the changes and problems started when Boat U.S. in 2007, and was exacerbated when coverage was transferred to GEICO (as opposed to CNA which used to issue the policies). I made a VERY STRONG argument to them about a 18 months ago when I found out they had not pointed out the depreciation provision during the quoting process. This is clearly a violation of insurance ethics, as they have a DUTY to point out the shortcomings in their policy. If I got screwed by their depreciation rules, I would pursue an Errors and Omissions / Bad Faith claim against them. Yes, I am in the industry, Bruce Whitmore 1994 C 37/40+ "Astralis" (847) 404-5092 (mobile) bwhitm...@sbcglobal.net<mailto:bwhitm...@sbcglobal.net> ___ Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions. Each and every one is greatly appreciated. If you want to support the list - use PayPal to send contribution -- https://www.paypal.me/stumurray
Re: Stus-List Boat insurance...reimbursement vs. depreciated
David, As do I. I have CCEd my broker. A sailor to boot. From: CnC-List On Behalf Of Joel Aronson via CnC-List Sent: Tuesday, November 12, 2019 12:58 PM To: cnc-list Cc: Joel Aronson Subject: Re: Stus-List Boat insurance...reimbursement vs. depreciated David, I use Berkeley Marine through an independent broker. No claims experience luckily. Joel On Tue, Nov 12, 2019 at 12:38 PM David E Spiro via CnC-List mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>> wrote: I can absolutely confirm that BoatUS/Geico depreciates to 20 percent on repairs, on a policy that has an agreed value. The agreed value is for a total loss. When they paid for repairs on my 1981 C 40 this past summer, I had to pay for 80% of any fitting or other part of the hull, AFTER the deductible. Labor is not depreciated. But… In my case, BoatUS/Geico sent adjusters who had no experience or knowledge of sailboats. The adjusters gave a ridiculously low estimate of time required to make repairs, and used labor rates that were less than half the prevailing rates in the NE US. I then had to have every single charge over and above the fictional estimate approved, which took weeks. And I had to pay for storage while they were approving the new charges. They also made several accounting errors in calculating how much to reimburse me, and it took several weeks to explain the errors to them and have them corrected. The total payout in the end was nearly ten times what they had first determined. I went with them because last winter I sailed to the Bahamas, and their policy with additional Bahamas coverage was not very expensive. But given that they do have any restrictions on what season one sails in the Bahamas, I expect their rates are going to go up dramatically. (Funny how insurance companies adjust premia to reflect past losses, rather than pricing risk as they are supposed to). I am extremely unhappy with BoatUS/Geico. I’d welcome referrals to companies that will insure a boat built in 1981 for offshore sailing, or referrals to brokers that can find good underwriters. David Spiro SV Hidden Hand City Island, NY -Original Message- You'll want to look very closely for issues related to depreciation.? If you have a policy in PDF format, you can do a search on words like "depreciate" "depreciation" and 20%" and you should find it.? Bruce Whitmore ___ Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions. Each and every one is greatly appreciated. If you want to support the list - use PayPal to send contribution -- https://www.paypal.me/stumurray -- Joel 301 541 8551 ___ Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions. Each and every one is greatly appreciated. If you want to support the list - use PayPal to send contribution -- https://www.paypal.me/stumurray
Re: Stus-List Boat insurance...reimbursement vs. depreciated
I submitted a claim under a BoatUS CNA policy years ago, and it was handled satisfactorily and professionally. In stark contrast, I had a hard time getting a straight answer from GEICO about the depreciation issue (layers of bureaucracy). I am not surprised that their claims process is frustrating. From: Bill Coleman via CnC-List Sent: Tuesday, November 12, 2019 1:48 PM To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com Cc: Bill Coleman Subject: Re: Stus-List Boat insurance...reimbursement vs. depreciated It was also sad when they (BoatUS) ceded the BoatUS stores to West Marine, they were a nice alternative while they lasted. After the founder of BoatUS passed away a few years ago, ( by all accounts a wonderful human being,) that was the beginning of the end. I think they lost their soul with his passing. I never hear anything but nice things about their insurance back then. Bill Coleman Erie PA From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of Bruce Whitmore via CnC-List Sent: Tuesday, November 12, 2019 1:29 PM To: cnc-list Cc: Bruce Whitmore Subject: Re: Stus-List Boat insurance...reimbursement vs. depreciated Unfortunately the changes and problems started when Boat U.S. in 2007, and was exacerbated when coverage was transferred to GEICO (as opposed to CNA which used to issue the policies). I made a VERY STRONG argument to them about a 18 months ago when I found out they had not pointed out the depreciation provision during the quoting process. This is clearly a violation of insurance ethics, as they have a DUTY to point out the shortcomings in their policy. If I got screwed by their depreciation rules, I would pursue an Errors and Omissions / Bad Faith claim against them. Yes, I am in the industry, Bruce Whitmore 1994 C 37/40+ "Astralis" (847) 404-5092 (mobile) bwhitm...@sbcglobal.net ___ Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions. Each and every one is greatly appreciated. If you want to support the list - use PayPal to send contribution -- https://www.paypal.me/stumurray ___ Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions. Each and every one is greatly appreciated. If you want to support the list - use PayPal to send contribution -- https://www.paypal.me/stumurray
Re: Stus-List Boat insurance...reimbursement vs. depreciated
It was also sad when they (BoatUS) ceded the BoatUS stores to West Marine, they were a nice alternative while they lasted. After the founder of BoatUS passed away a few years ago, ( by all accounts a wonderful human being,) that was the beginning of the end. I think they lost their soul with his passing. I never hear anything but nice things about their insurance back then. Bill Coleman Erie PA From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of Bruce Whitmore via CnC-List Sent: Tuesday, November 12, 2019 1:29 PM To: cnc-list Cc: Bruce Whitmore Subject: Re: Stus-List Boat insurance...reimbursement vs. depreciated Unfortunately the changes and problems started when Boat U.S. in 2007, and was exacerbated when coverage was transferred to GEICO (as opposed to CNA which used to issue the policies). I made a VERY STRONG argument to them about a 18 months ago when I found out they had not pointed out the depreciation provision during the quoting process. This is clearly a violation of insurance ethics, as they have a DUTY to point out the shortcomings in their policy. If I got screwed by their depreciation rules, I would pursue an Errors and Omissions / Bad Faith claim against them. Yes, I am in the industry, Bruce Whitmore 1994 C 37/40+ "Astralis" (847) 404-5092 (mobile) bwhitm...@sbcglobal.net ___ Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions. Each and every one is greatly appreciated. If you want to support the list - use PayPal to send contribution -- https://www.paypal.me/stumurray
Re: Stus-List Boat insurance...reimbursement vs. depreciated
Unfortunately the changes and problems started when Boat U.S. in 2007, and was exacerbated when coverage was transferred to GEICO (as opposed to CNA which used to issue the policies). I made a VERY STRONG argument to them about a 18 months ago when I found out they had not pointed out the depreciation provision during the quoting process. This is clearly a violation of insurance ethics, as they have a DUTY to point out the shortcomings in their policy. If I got screwed by their depreciation rules, I would pursue an Errors and Omissions / Bad Faith claim against them. Yes, I am in the industry, Bruce Whitmore 1994 C 37/40+"Astralis" (847) 404-5092 (mobile) bwhitm...@sbcglobal.net ___ Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions. Each and every one is greatly appreciated. If you want to support the list - use PayPal to send contribution -- https://www.paypal.me/stumurray
Re: Stus-List Boat insurance...reimbursement vs. depreciated
My experience with BOATUS was stellar years ago. I hit a log and bent the prop shaft. They didn’t even send an adjuster, just had the yard fax them an estimate and they paid it no question. I don’t even think I had a deductible because I had paid to get hauled anyway for painting. There was no depreciation at all. How does a prop shaft and prop “depreciate” anyway? They are good for decades and then you hit something and they are no longer. It is a real shame BOATUS went down the drain. Joe Della Barba Coquina C 35 MK I www.dellabarba.com ___ Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions. Each and every one is greatly appreciated. If you want to support the list - use PayPal to send contribution -- https://www.paypal.me/stumurray
Re: Stus-List Boat insurance...reimbursement vs. depreciated
David, I use Berkeley Marine through an independent broker. No claims experience luckily. Joel On Tue, Nov 12, 2019 at 12:38 PM David E Spiro via CnC-List < cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote: > I can absolutely confirm that BoatUS/Geico depreciates to 20 percent on > repairs, on a policy that has an agreed value. The agreed value is for a > total loss. When they paid for repairs on my 1981 C 40 this past summer, > I had to pay for 80% of any fitting or other part of the hull, AFTER the > deductible. Labor is not depreciated. But… > > > > In my case, BoatUS/Geico sent adjusters who had no experience or knowledge > of sailboats. The adjusters gave a ridiculously low estimate of time > required to make repairs, and used labor rates that were less than half the > prevailing rates in the NE US. I then had to have every single charge over > and above the fictional estimate approved, which took weeks. And I had to > pay for storage while they were approving the new charges. > > > > They also made several accounting errors in calculating how much to > reimburse me, and it took several weeks to explain the errors to them and > have them corrected. The total payout in the end was nearly ten times what > they had first determined. > > > > I went with them because last winter I sailed to the Bahamas, and their > policy with additional Bahamas coverage was not very expensive. But given > that they do have any restrictions on what season one sails in the Bahamas, > I expect their rates are going to go up dramatically. (Funny how insurance > companies adjust premia to reflect past losses, rather than pricing risk as > they are supposed to). > > > > I am extremely unhappy with BoatUS/Geico. I’d welcome referrals to > companies that will insure a boat built in 1981 for offshore sailing, or > referrals to brokers that can find good underwriters. > > > > David Spiro > > SV Hidden Hand > > City Island, NY > > > > -Original Message- > You'll want to look very closely for issues related to depreciation.? If > you have a policy in PDF format, you can do a search on words like > "depreciate" "depreciation" and 20%" and you should find it.? > > > > Bruce Whitmore > > > ___ > > Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions. Each > and every one is greatly appreciated. If you want to support the list - > use PayPal to send contribution -- https://www.paypal.me/stumurray > > -- Joel 301 541 8551 ___ Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions. Each and every one is greatly appreciated. If you want to support the list - use PayPal to send contribution -- https://www.paypal.me/stumurray
Re: Stus-List Boat insurance...reimbursement vs. depreciated
I can absolutely confirm that BoatUS/Geico depreciates to 20 percent on repairs, on a policy that has an agreed value. The agreed value is for a total loss. When they paid for repairs on my 1981 C 40 this past summer, I had to pay for 80% of any fitting or other part of the hull, AFTER the deductible. Labor is not depreciated. But. In my case, BoatUS/Geico sent adjusters who had no experience or knowledge of sailboats. The adjusters gave a ridiculously low estimate of time required to make repairs, and used labor rates that were less than half the prevailing rates in the NE US. I then had to have every single charge over and above the fictional estimate approved, which took weeks. And I had to pay for storage while they were approving the new charges. They also made several accounting errors in calculating how much to reimburse me, and it took several weeks to explain the errors to them and have them corrected. The total payout in the end was nearly ten times what they had first determined. I went with them because last winter I sailed to the Bahamas, and their policy with additional Bahamas coverage was not very expensive. But given that they do have any restrictions on what season one sails in the Bahamas, I expect their rates are going to go up dramatically. (Funny how insurance companies adjust premia to reflect past losses, rather than pricing risk as they are supposed to). I am extremely unhappy with BoatUS/Geico. I'd welcome referrals to companies that will insure a boat built in 1981 for offshore sailing, or referrals to brokers that can find good underwriters. David Spiro SV Hidden Hand City Island, NY -Original Message- You'll want to look very closely for issues related to depreciation.? If you have a policy in PDF format, you can do a search on words like "depreciate" "depreciation" and 20%" and you should find it.? Bruce Whitmore ___ Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions. Each and every one is greatly appreciated. If you want to support the list - use PayPal to send contribution -- https://www.paypal.me/stumurray
Re: Stus-List Boat insurance...reimbursement vs. depreciated
Bruce, Just an FYI, the ISO for watercraft is WT 00 01. Most companies either follow the ISO because they have been tested in court for the language used, or because the ISO has already been approved by the state so they don't have to get their own policy approved. There are many companies that do use their own policies as you said, but they are based on the ISO with some changes to the language as they try to exclude something that the base policy doesn't. Typically, that language is tested in court pretty quickly and if they lose, they tend to revert their language back to the original base policy. The mid-west company I worked for for a few years went that route. They managed to win a few court cases so some of their language became standardized among other 'write your own' carriers. There is one other policy standard that exists that I forgot about until now. Lloyd's of London. They write a policy that uses some of the language that I have seen other's mention in this string that you don't find in ISO forms. Progressive, Heritage and others resell Lloyd's whenever they get a policy that doesn't fall into their normal book of business (types of policies they specialize in). I've not dealt with a lot of Lloyd's policies, but they are definitely different. If anyone on this list has a Lloyd's policy, I highly recommend the coverage review I mentioned earlier. Very highly. JamesOn Monday, November 11, 2019, 07:10:08 PM CST, cnc-list-requ...@cnc-list.com wrote: Send CnC-List mailing list submissions to cnc-list@cnc-list.com To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.com or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to cnc-list-requ...@cnc-list.com You can reach the person managing the list at cnc-list-ow...@cnc-list.com When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of CnC-List digest..." Today's Topics: 1. Re: Boat insurance...reimbursement vs. depreciated coverage... (Bruce Whitmore) 2. Re: Boat insurance...reimbursement vs. depreciated coverage (kasel...@q.com) 3. Marco Pumps UP3E (Bill Coleman) 4. Re: Boat insurance...reimbursement vs. depreciated (James Nichols) 5. Re: Boat insurance...reimbursement vs. depreciated (Bruce Whitmore) -- Message: 1 Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2019 21:46:04 + (UTC) From: Bruce Whitmore To: Allen Miles via CnC-List Subject: Re: Stus-List Boat insurance...reimbursement vs. depreciated coverage... Message-ID: <1561640048.2547048.1573508764...@mail.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" You'll want to look very closely for issues related to depreciation.? If you have a policy in PDF format, you can do a search on words like "depreciate" "depreciation" and 20%" and you should find it.? Bruce Whitmore (847) 404-5092 (mobile) bwhitm...@sbcglobal.net On Monday, November 11, 2019, 4:18:10 PM EST, Allen Miles via CnC-List wrote: I have agreed hull value with BoatUS.? I don't remember seeing a change in coverage. Allen MilesS/v SeptimaC 30-2 Hampton, VA On Sun, Nov 10, 2019 at 4:39 PM David Risch via CnC-List wrote: I may be repeating myself here, but it bears repeating.? Check your boat coverage.? BoatIUS had reimbursement coverage before they switched to GEICO as their carrier last year.? Now it is depreciated value coverage.? Reimbursement coverage pays for replacing damages up to the agreed value.? Depreciated coverage drops to 20% over time to where most of our boats would only receive 20% of fixing damages!?? I switched coverage when I learned of this and I still pay the same premium. ? I bring this up because one of our brethren has been caught by this issue after a recent incident.? If your broker cannot find a reimbursement carrier, let me know.? I will provide the contact info of my guy.? ___ Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions.? Each and every one is greatly appreciated.? If you want to support the list - use PayPal to send contribution --? ?https://www.paypal.me/stumurray ___ Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions.? Each and every one is greatly appreciated.? If you want to support the list - use PayPal to send contribution --? https://www.paypal.me/stumurray -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <http://cnc-list.com/pipermail/cnc-list_cnc-list.com/attachments/2019/dc796de7/attachment-0001.html> -- Message: 2 Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2019 15:15:07 -0800 From: kasel...@q.com To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com Subject: Re: Stus-List Boat insurance...reimbursemen
Re: Stus-List Boat insurance...reimbursement vs. depreciated
I agree with everything James said except for the bit about ISO forms. Yes, ISO forms are pretty standard for Homeowners, Renters, and even Commercial General Liability. For boats, however, I have not seen the standard ISO forms, meaning that each carrier's policy may differ, even substantially. That means that one should not rely on having standard policy language that is only altered by endorsements. Just my $.02 worth, Bruce Whitmore (847) 404-5092 (mobile) bwhitm...@sbcglobal.net On Monday, November 11, 2019, 7:01:38 PM EST, James Nichols via CnC-List wrote: Some terms to know if you are dealing with a claim. Replacement Cost Value (RCV) - this is the cost of buying a new boat or part in today's dollars. You probably have your boat insured for this amount. Actual Cash Value (ACV) - the amount that a boat or part is worth after depreciation is applied. Depreciation - everything has an average expected lifespan. Similar to how cars lose value (depreciate) the minute you drive off the lot, so do boats. Boats depreciate as a whole, similar to the way cars do. But parts, like winches, also depreciate individually. Most parts are estimated to last less than 20 years. For example cushions may have an average life of 5 years. The wood table 15 years, the engine 20 years. Etc. The hull, mast and stainless tubing will probably have longer lifespans estimated. 35-50 years. Depreciation is calculated by dividing the age of the item by the expected lifespan. So 3 year old cushions will be depreciated by 60%. Recoverable vs. non-recoverable depreciation - your policy may be a RCV policy or it may be an ACV policy. If you have an ACV policy, all you ever get is the ACV of the part being replaced. So you can not recover the depreciation. If you have a RCV policy, they hold the depreciation until you do the repairs or replace the item meaning you recover (are reimbursed for) the full cost to repair or replace the items. Once you do the repairs, you submit your invoice and they reimburse you. I have a lot of experience with home owners claims, and not as much with automotive or boats, but from my understanding some policies for boats and autos always depreciate materials and materials are always ACV and only the labor is recoverable. Check with your agent to find out the exact details of your policy. You can also nearly always add endorsements to your policy to make it pay for 'everything' but that drives up the cost of the policy. >From what I have seen in my 10+ years in the industry, most people aren't >insured the way they think they are which is the reason why some of you left >your previous providers and went with new providers. Nearly every policy provided by all carriers is identical, because they all pretty much just use a standard ISO form. But the agent at your new insurance policy listened to the issues you had and added endorsements to provide coverage to make sure you spent have the same issue again. If you get coverage review requests from your agent, you should probably take them up on it. They probably send you a request about once a year. I know this was long, but I hope it cleared up some questions about what and why things happen in a claim. James___ Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions. Each and every one is greatly appreciated. If you want to support the list - use PayPal to send contribution -- https://www.paypal.me/stumurray ___ Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions. Each and every one is greatly appreciated. If you want to support the list - use PayPal to send contribution -- https://www.paypal.me/stumurray
Re: Stus-List Boat insurance...reimbursement vs. depreciated
Some terms to know if you are dealing with a claim. Replacement Cost Value (RCV) - this is the cost of buying a new boat or part in today's dollars. You probably have your boat insured for this amount. Actual Cash Value (ACV) - the amount that a boat or part is worth after depreciation is applied. Depreciation - everything has an average expected lifespan. Similar to how cars lose value (depreciate) the minute you drive off the lot, so do boats. Boats depreciate as a whole, similar to the way cars do. But parts, like winches, also depreciate individually. Most parts are estimated to last less than 20 years. For example cushions may have an average life of 5 years. The wood table 15 years, the engine 20 years. Etc. The hull, mast and stainless tubing will probably have longer lifespans estimated. 35-50 years. Depreciation is calculated by dividing the age of the item by the expected lifespan. So 3 year old cushions will be depreciated by 60%. Recoverable vs. non-recoverable depreciation - your policy may be a RCV policy or it may be an ACV policy. If you have an ACV policy, all you ever get is the ACV of the part being replaced. So you can not recover the depreciation. If you have a RCV policy, they hold the depreciation until you do the repairs or replace the item meaning you recover (are reimbursed for) the full cost to repair or replace the items. Once you do the repairs, you submit your invoice and they reimburse you. I have a lot of experience with home owners claims, and not as much with automotive or boats, but from my understanding some policies for boats and autos always depreciate materials and materials are always ACV and only the labor is recoverable. Check with your agent to find out the exact details of your policy. You can also nearly always add endorsements to your policy to make it pay for 'everything' but that drives up the cost of the policy. >From what I have seen in my 10+ years in the industry, most people aren't >insured the way they think they are which is the reason why some of you left >your previous providers and went with new providers. Nearly every policy provided by all carriers is identical, because they all pretty much just use a standard ISO form. But the agent at your new insurance policy listened to the issues you had and added endorsements to provide coverage to make sure you spent have the same issue again. If you get coverage review requests from your agent, you should probably take them up on it. They probably send you a request about once a year. I know this was long, but I hope it cleared up some questions about what and why things happen in a claim. James___ Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions. Each and every one is greatly appreciated. If you want to support the list - use PayPal to send contribution -- https://www.paypal.me/stumurray
Re: Stus-List Boat insurance...reimbursement vs. depreciated coverage
Be careful to understand your insurance policy. Lots of terms like “replacement value” or “agreed value” or “new for old” have different definitions. See the definitions section of your policy. Sometimes the “agreed value” provision applies only in the case of a total loss while a “depreciated value” provision is applied in case of a partial loss. If you purchase your insurance from a “marine” broker or even a “marine” agent you should be able to get straight answers about how claims will be handled but if you are buying your insurance from the same person you are buying your home owners or auto coverage you may find the broker/agent less knowledgeable about your yacht/boat policy because it’s a very different product. And remember that a “broker” works for you while an “agent” works for the insurance company. Property/casualty insurances are regulated by your state’s insurance commissioner while a true “ marine” policy falls under federal jurisdiction. A lower price often equates to less coverage. I suggest you be very careful here. Just my opinion. Dave. Kaseler SLY 1975 C 33 Sent from my iPad > On Nov 11, 2019, at 12:29 PM, Francois Rivard via CnC-List > wrote: > > I have agreed upon value with Allstate. Straight-up agreed-upon value > coverage, 35-40% cheaper than Boat US and Geico. (Geico's been insuring my > cars since the 90's but they wouldn't / couldn't compete with Allstate.) > > I'm on an inland lake / that most likely makes a difference. > Your actual mileage may vary. > > -Francois Rivard > 1990 34+ "Take Five" > Lake Lanier, GA > ___ > > Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions. Each and > every one is greatly appreciated. If you want to support the list - use > PayPal to send contribution -- https://www.paypal.me/stumurray > ___ Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions. Each and every one is greatly appreciated. If you want to support the list - use PayPal to send contribution -- https://www.paypal.me/stumurray
Re: Stus-List Boat insurance...reimbursement vs. depreciated coverage...
You'll want to look very closely for issues related to depreciation. If you have a policy in PDF format, you can do a search on words like "depreciate" "depreciation" and 20%" and you should find it. Bruce Whitmore (847) 404-5092 (mobile) bwhitm...@sbcglobal.net On Monday, November 11, 2019, 4:18:10 PM EST, Allen Miles via CnC-List wrote: I have agreed hull value with BoatUS. I don't remember seeing a change in coverage. Allen MilesS/v SeptimaC 30-2 Hampton, VA On Sun, Nov 10, 2019 at 4:39 PM David Risch via CnC-List wrote: I may be repeating myself here, but it bears repeating. Check your boat coverage. BoatIUS had reimbursement coverage before they switched to GEICO as their carrier last year. Now it is depreciated value coverage. Reimbursement coverage pays for replacing damages up to the agreed value. Depreciated coverage drops to 20% over time to where most of our boats would only receive 20% of fixing damages! I switched coverage when I learned of this and I still pay the same premium. I bring this up because one of our brethren has been caught by this issue after a recent incident. If your broker cannot find a reimbursement carrier, let me know. I will provide the contact info of my guy. ___ Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions. Each and every one is greatly appreciated. If you want to support the list - use PayPal to send contribution -- https://www.paypal.me/stumurray ___ Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions. Each and every one is greatly appreciated. If you want to support the list - use PayPal to send contribution -- https://www.paypal.me/stumurray ___ Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions. Each and every one is greatly appreciated. If you want to support the list - use PayPal to send contribution -- https://www.paypal.me/stumurray
Re: Stus-List Boat insurance...reimbursement vs. depreciated coverage...
The change was that things other than the agreed upon hull value depreciate for older boats. I saw the new provision in my GEICO policy after this list alerted me to it. From: Allen Miles via CnC-List Sent: Monday, November 11, 2019 4:17 PM To: CNC Cc: Allen Miles Subject: Re: Stus-List Boat insurance...reimbursement vs. depreciated coverage... I have agreed hull value with BoatUS. I don't remember seeing a change in coverage. Allen Miles S/v Septima C 30-2 Hampton, VA On Sun, Nov 10, 2019 at 4:39 PM David Risch via CnC-List wrote: I may be repeating myself here, but it bears repeating. Check your boat coverage. BoatIUS had reimbursement coverage before they switched to GEICO as their carrier last year. Now it is depreciated value coverage. Reimbursement coverage pays for replacing damages up to the agreed value. Depreciated coverage drops to 20% over time to where most of our boats would only receive 20% of fixing damages! I switched coverage when I learned of this and I still pay the same premium. I bring this up because one of our brethren has been caught by this issue after a recent incident. If your broker cannot find a reimbursement carrier, let me know. I will provide the contact info of my guy. ___ Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions. Each and every one is greatly appreciated. If you want to support the list - use PayPal to send contribution -- https://www.paypal.me/stumurray ___ Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions. Each and every one is greatly appreciated. If you want to support the list - use PayPal to send contribution -- https://www.paypal.me/stumurray ___ Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions. Each and every one is greatly appreciated. If you want to support the list - use PayPal to send contribution -- https://www.paypal.me/stumurray
Re: Stus-List Boat insurance...reimbursement vs. depreciated coverage...
I have agreed hull value with BoatUS. I don't remember seeing a change in coverage. Allen Miles S/v Septima C 30-2 Hampton, VA On Sun, Nov 10, 2019 at 4:39 PM David Risch via CnC-List < cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote: > I may be repeating myself here, but it bears repeating. Check your boat > coverage. BoatIUS had reimbursement coverage before they switched to GEICO > as their carrier last year. Now it is depreciated value coverage. > Reimbursement coverage pays for replacing damages up to the agreed value. > Depreciated coverage drops to 20% over time to where most of our boats > would only receive 20% of fixing damages! I switched coverage when I > learned of this and I still pay the same premium. > > > > I bring this up because one of our brethren has been caught by this issue > after a recent incident. If your broker cannot find a reimbursement > carrier, let me know. I will provide the contact info of my guy. > ___ > > Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions. Each > and every one is greatly appreciated. If you want to support the list - > use PayPal to send contribution -- https://www.paypal.me/stumurray > > ___ Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions. Each and every one is greatly appreciated. If you want to support the list - use PayPal to send contribution -- https://www.paypal.me/stumurray
Re: Stus-List Boat insurance...reimbursement vs. depreciated coverage
You shouldconfirm how salvage is treated. That can be a real shock. Also, you should confirm if pollution from a sinking or spillage is covered. Hoping you find this helpful, Bruce Whitmore (847) 404-5092 (mobile) bwhitm...@sbcglobal.net On Monday, November 11, 2019, 3:30:01 PM EST, Francois Rivard via CnC-List wrote: I have agreed upon value with Allstate. Straight-up agreed-upon value coverage, 35-40% cheaper than Boat US and Geico. (Geico's been insuring my cars since the 90's but they wouldn't / couldn't compete with Allstate.) I'm on an inland lake / that most likely makes a difference. Your actual mileage may vary. -Francois Rivard1990 34+ "Take Five" Lake Lanier, GA___ Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions. Each and every one is greatly appreciated. If you want to support the list - use PayPal to send contribution -- https://www.paypal.me/stumurray ___ Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions. Each and every one is greatly appreciated. If you want to support the list - use PayPal to send contribution -- https://www.paypal.me/stumurray
Re: Stus-List Boat insurance...reimbursement vs. depreciated coverage...
You were that boat I saw! smileyAnimated.gif Bill Coleman From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of sv Rebecca Leah via CnC-List Sent: Monday, November 11, 2019 12:42 PM To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com Cc: sv Rebecca Leah Subject: Re: Stus-List Boat insurance...reimbursement vs. depreciated coverage... I have Red Shield, no problems on claim when I hit a bridge. Don't ask. Doug Mountjoy Sv Rebecca Leah C LF39 253-208-1412 Port Orchard YC wa. Original message From: "Matthew L. Wolford via CnC-List" Date: 11/10/19 17:10 (GMT-08:00) To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com Cc: "Matthew L. Wolford" Subject: Re: Stus-List Boat insurance...reimbursement vs. depreciated coverage... It is also why I switched to Travelers. From: Joe Della <mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com> Barba via CnC-List Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2019 5:43 PM To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com Cc: Joe Della Barba <mailto:j...@dellabarba.com> Subject: Re: Stus-List Boat insurance...reimbursement vs. depreciated coverage... This is why I just switched to Progressive. How the does STAINLESS STEEL depreciate? Joe Coquina On 11/10/2019 5:36 PM, Danny Haughey via CnC-List wrote: Geico marine insurance is depreciating my anchor roller, blow pulpit and stanchions by 80% because they say those parts are from 1985... Thanks, Danny _ ___ Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions. Each and every one is greatly appreciated. If you want to support the list - use PayPal to send contribution -- https://www.paypal.me/stumurray ___ Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions. Each and every one is greatly appreciated. If you want to support the list - use PayPal to send contribution -- https://www.paypal.me/stumurray
Re: Stus-List Boat insurance...reimbursement vs. depreciated coverage...
I have Red Shield, no problems on claim when I hit a bridge. Don't ask. Doug Mountjoy Sv Rebecca Leah C LF39253-208-1412Port Orchard YC wa. Original message From: "Matthew L. Wolford via CnC-List" Date: 11/10/19 17:10 (GMT-08:00) To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com Cc: "Matthew L. Wolford" Subject: Re: Stus-List Boat insurance...reimbursement vs. depreciated coverage... It is also why I switched to Travelers. From: Joe Della Barba via CnC-List Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2019 5:43 PM To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com Cc: Joe Della Barba Subject: Re: Stus-List Boat insurance...reimbursement vs. depreciated coverage... This is why I just switched to Progressive. How the does STAINLESS STEEL depreciate? Joe Coquina On 11/10/2019 5:36 PM, Danny Haughey via CnC-List wrote: Geico marine insurance is depreciating my anchor roller, blow pulpit and stanchions by 80% because they say those parts are from 1985... Thanks, Danny ___Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions. Each and every one is greatly appreciated. If you want to support the list - use PayPal to send contribution -- https://www.paypal.me/stumurray___ Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions. Each and every one is greatly appreciated. If you want to support the list - use PayPal to send contribution -- https://www.paypal.me/stumurray
Re: Stus-List Boat insurance...reimbursement vs. depreciated coverage...
After this discussion emerged on this list a year or two ago, I contacted GEICO (which had become the Boat US insurer) and asked whether, if I were dismasted, the depreciation would apply. They looked into it and replied yes. As I recall, there was a 20% floor. In other words, if I got dismasted, I would have to pay 80% of the replacement cost. I have a 42 foot boat with a 60 foot mast. I was on the phone to Travelers that day. From: ALAN BERGEN via CnC-List Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2019 5:27 PM To: C Cc: ALAN BERGEN Subject: Re: Stus-List Boat insurance...reimbursement vs. depreciated coverage... I have Geico Insurance through BoatUS. Agreed value is agreed value. They only depreciate items that are depreciable, like sails or the engine. A couple of years ago, my boom cracked after getting hung up on a crab pot. Geico paid the full cost of replacing the boom - parts and labor, with no depreciation. I suspect your new insurance company's policy does the same thing. Alan Bergen 35 Mk III Thirsty Rose City YC Portland, OR On Sun, Nov 10, 2019 at 1:39 PM David Risch via CnC-List wrote: I may be repeating myself here, but it bears repeating. Check your boat coverage. BoatIUS had reimbursement coverage before they switched to GEICO as their carrier last year. Now it is depreciated value coverage. Reimbursement coverage pays for replacing damages up to the agreed value. Depreciated coverage drops to 20% over time to where most of our boats would only receive 20% of fixing damages! I switched coverage when I learned of this and I still pay the same premium. I bring this up because one of our brethren has been caught by this issue after a recent incident. If your broker cannot find a reimbursement carrier, let me know. I will provide the contact info of my guy. ___ Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions. Each and every one is greatly appreciated. If you want to support the list - use PayPal to send contribution -- https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.paypal.me_stumurray=DwICAg=clK7kQUTWtAVEOVIgvi0NU5BOUHhpN0H8p7CSfnc_gI=9w3G7Cf8YfQnrjmtuNxwDJYr3JMv9f1pAfgAJ9xXYQQ=k2Lt-SG6o9I03vcyylQHhk3NCZ4wYxvCecLDss6-pRQ=9rx_5cAXI0FUZ8v4mk3THOkZozwGMz4wlqzriOi9sak= ___ Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions. Each and every one is greatly appreciated. If you want to support the list - use PayPal to send contribution -- https://www.paypal.me/stumurray ___ Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions. Each and every one is greatly appreciated. If you want to support the list - use PayPal to send contribution -- https://www.paypal.me/stumurray
Re: Stus-List Boat insurance...reimbursement vs. depreciated coverage...
It is also why I switched to Travelers. From: Joe Della Barba via CnC-List Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2019 5:43 PM To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com Cc: Joe Della Barba Subject: Re: Stus-List Boat insurance...reimbursement vs. depreciated coverage... This is why I just switched to Progressive. How the does STAINLESS STEEL depreciate? Joe Coquina On 11/10/2019 5:36 PM, Danny Haughey via CnC-List wrote: Geico marine insurance is depreciating my anchor roller, blow pulpit and stanchions by 80% because they say those parts are from 1985... Thanks, Danny ___ Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions. Each and every one is greatly appreciated. If you want to support the list - use PayPal to send contribution -- https://www.paypal.me/stumurray ___ Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions. Each and every one is greatly appreciated. If you want to support the list - use PayPal to send contribution -- https://www.paypal.me/stumurray
Re: Stus-List Boat insurance...reimbursement vs. depreciated coverage...
Speak to a supervisor. There should be no depreciation for those parts. On Sun, Nov 10, 2019 at 2:37 PM Danny Haughey via CnC-List < cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote: > Geico marine insurance is depreciating my anchor roller, blow pulpit and > stanchions by 80% because they say those parts are from 1985... > > > > Thanks, > Danny > > Original message > From: ALAN BERGEN via CnC-List > Date: 11/10/19 5:27 PM (GMT-05:00) > To: C > Cc: ALAN BERGEN > Subject: Re: Stus-List Boat insurance...reimbursement vs. depreciated > coverage... > > I have Geico Insurance through BoatUS. Agreed value is agreed value. They > only depreciate items that are depreciable, like sails or the engine. A > couple of years ago, my boom cracked after getting hung up on a crab pot. > Geico paid the full cost of replacing the boom - parts and labor, with no > depreciation. I suspect your new insurance company's policy does the same > thing. > > Alan Bergen > 35 Mk III Thirsty > Rose City YC > Portland, OR > > On Sun, Nov 10, 2019 at 1:39 PM David Risch via CnC-List < > cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote: > >> I may be repeating myself here, but it bears repeating. Check your boat >> coverage. BoatIUS had reimbursement coverage before they switched to GEICO >> as their carrier last year. Now it is depreciated value coverage. >> Reimbursement coverage pays for replacing damages up to the agreed value. >> Depreciated coverage drops to 20% over time to where most of our boats >> would only receive 20% of fixing damages! I switched coverage when I >> learned of this and I still pay the same premium. >> >> >> >> I bring this up because one of our brethren has been caught by this issue >> after a recent incident. If your broker cannot find a reimbursement >> carrier, let me know. I will provide the contact info of my guy. >> ___ >> >> Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions. Each >> and every one is greatly appreciated. If you want to support the list - >> use PayPal to send contribution -- >> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.paypal.me_stumurray=DwICAg=clK7kQUTWtAVEOVIgvi0NU5BOUHhpN0H8p7CSfnc_gI=9w3G7Cf8YfQnrjmtuNxwDJYr3JMv9f1pAfgAJ9xXYQQ=k2Lt-SG6o9I03vcyylQHhk3NCZ4wYxvCecLDss6-pRQ=9rx_5cAXI0FUZ8v4mk3THOkZozwGMz4wlqzriOi9sak= >> >> > > > *How To Fix Aging Skin (Do This Every Day)* > Beverly Hills MD > > <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__thirdpartyoffers.juno.com_TGL3142_5dc890e14ee6810e0552ast03duc=DwMGaQ=clK7kQUTWtAVEOVIgvi0NU5BOUHhpN0H8p7CSfnc_gI=9w3G7Cf8YfQnrjmtuNxwDJYr3JMv9f1pAfgAJ9xXYQQ=BFgtknZgpeUxRRpefyPNfrexTYluRyV_5NRQk-Fzt7s=UohjJ82Qdhw2gvJyLArQTwkkrYtrEfuweAezLAzQook=> > http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3142/5dc890e14ee6810e0552ast03duc > <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__thirdpartyoffers.juno.com_TGL3142_5dc890e14ee6810e0552ast03duc=DwMGaQ=clK7kQUTWtAVEOVIgvi0NU5BOUHhpN0H8p7CSfnc_gI=9w3G7Cf8YfQnrjmtuNxwDJYr3JMv9f1pAfgAJ9xXYQQ=BFgtknZgpeUxRRpefyPNfrexTYluRyV_5NRQk-Fzt7s=UohjJ82Qdhw2gvJyLArQTwkkrYtrEfuweAezLAzQook=> > [image: SponsoredBy Content.Ad] > ___ > > Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions. Each > and every one is greatly appreciated. If you want to support the list - > use PayPal to send contribution -- > https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.paypal.me_stumurray=DwICAg=clK7kQUTWtAVEOVIgvi0NU5BOUHhpN0H8p7CSfnc_gI=9w3G7Cf8YfQnrjmtuNxwDJYr3JMv9f1pAfgAJ9xXYQQ=BFgtknZgpeUxRRpefyPNfrexTYluRyV_5NRQk-Fzt7s=XvJtBfvCktNzpxM7BUINzcc_jyN3WuKy9RvypPBOqKM= > > ___ Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions. Each and every one is greatly appreciated. If you want to support the list - use PayPal to send contribution -- https://www.paypal.me/stumurray
Re: Stus-List Boat insurance...reimbursement vs. depreciated coverage...
This is why I just switched to Progressive. How the does STAINLESS STEEL depreciate? Joe Coquina On 11/10/2019 5:36 PM, Danny Haughey via CnC-List wrote: Geico marine insurance is depreciating my anchor roller, blow pulpit and stanchions by 80% because they say those parts are from 1985... Thanks, Danny ___ Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions. Each and every one is greatly appreciated. If you want to support the list - use PayPal to send contribution -- https://www.paypal.me/stumurray
Re: Stus-List Boat insurance...reimbursement vs. depreciated coverage...
Geico marine insurance is depreciating my anchor roller, blow pulpit and stanchions by 80% because they say those parts are from 1985...Thanks, Danny Original message From: ALAN BERGEN via CnC-List Date: 11/10/19 5:27 PM (GMT-05:00) To: C Cc: ALAN BERGEN Subject: Re: Stus-List Boat insurance...reimbursement vs. depreciated coverage... I have Geico Insurance through BoatUS. Agreed value is agreed value. They only depreciate items that are depreciable, like sails or the engine. A couple of years ago, my boom cracked after getting hung up on a crab pot. Geico paid the full cost of replacing the boom - parts and labor, with no depreciation. I suspect your new insurance company's policy does the same thing.Alan Bergen35 Mk III ThirstyRose City YCPortland, OROn Sun, Nov 10, 2019 at 1:39 PM David Risch via CnC-List wrote: I may be repeating myself here, but it bears repeating. Check your boat coverage. BoatIUS had reimbursement coverage before they switched to GEICO as their carrier last year. Now it is depreciated value coverage. Reimbursement coverage pays for replacing damages up to the agreed value. Depreciated coverage drops to 20% over time to where most of our boats would only receive 20% of fixing damages! I switched coverage when I learned of this and I still pay the same premium. I bring this up because one of our brethren has been caught by this issue after a recent incident. If your broker cannot find a reimbursement carrier, let me know. I will provide the contact info of my guy. ___ Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions. Each and every one is greatly appreciated. If you want to support the list - use PayPal to send contribution -- https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.paypal.me_stumurray=DwICAg=clK7kQUTWtAVEOVIgvi0NU5BOUHhpN0H8p7CSfnc_gI=9w3G7Cf8YfQnrjmtuNxwDJYr3JMv9f1pAfgAJ9xXYQQ=k2Lt-SG6o9I03vcyylQHhk3NCZ4wYxvCecLDss6-pRQ=9rx_5cAXI0FUZ8v4mk3THOkZozwGMz4wlqzriOi9sak= How To Fix Aging Skin (Do This Every Day) Beverly Hills MD http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3141/5dc890e14ee6810e0552ast03duc___ Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions. Each and every one is greatly appreciated. If you want to support the list - use PayPal to send contribution -- https://www.paypal.me/stumurray
Re: Stus-List Boat insurance...reimbursement vs. depreciated coverage...
I have Geico Insurance through BoatUS. Agreed value is agreed value. They only depreciate items that are depreciable, like sails or the engine. A couple of years ago, my boom cracked after getting hung up on a crab pot. Geico paid the full cost of replacing the boom - parts and labor, with no depreciation. I suspect your new insurance company's policy does the same thing. Alan Bergen 35 Mk III Thirsty Rose City YC Portland, OR On Sun, Nov 10, 2019 at 1:39 PM David Risch via CnC-List < cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote: > I may be repeating myself here, but it bears repeating. Check your boat > coverage. BoatIUS had reimbursement coverage before they switched to GEICO > as their carrier last year. Now it is depreciated value coverage. > Reimbursement coverage pays for replacing damages up to the agreed value. > Depreciated coverage drops to 20% over time to where most of our boats > would only receive 20% of fixing damages! I switched coverage when I > learned of this and I still pay the same premium. > > > > I bring this up because one of our brethren has been caught by this issue > after a recent incident. If your broker cannot find a reimbursement > carrier, let me know. I will provide the contact info of my guy. > ___ > > Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions. Each > and every one is greatly appreciated. If you want to support the list - > use PayPal to send contribution -- > https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.paypal.me_stumurray=DwICAg=clK7kQUTWtAVEOVIgvi0NU5BOUHhpN0H8p7CSfnc_gI=9w3G7Cf8YfQnrjmtuNxwDJYr3JMv9f1pAfgAJ9xXYQQ=k2Lt-SG6o9I03vcyylQHhk3NCZ4wYxvCecLDss6-pRQ=9rx_5cAXI0FUZ8v4mk3THOkZozwGMz4wlqzriOi9sak= > > ___ Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions. Each and every one is greatly appreciated. If you want to support the list - use PayPal to send contribution -- https://www.paypal.me/stumurray
Re: Stus-List Boat insurance...reimbursement vs. depreciated coverage...
It's actually only on parts you can't prove are not over 20 years old. Then the parts reimbursement starts dropping off. Labor is covered 100%Thanks, Danny Original message From: David Risch via CnC-List Date: 11/10/19 4:39 PM (GMT-05:00) To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com Cc: David Risch Subject: Stus-List Boat insurance...reimbursement vs. depreciated coverage... I may be repeating myself here, but it bears repeating. Check your boat coverage. BoatIUS had reimbursement coverage before they switched to GEICO as their carrier last year. Now it is depreciated value coverage. Reimbursement coverage pays for replacing damages up to the agreed value. Depreciated coverage drops to 20% over time to where most of our boats would only receive 20% of fixing damages! I switched coverage when I learned of this and I still pay the same premium. I bring this up because one of our brethren has been caught by this issue after a recent incident. If your broker cannot find a reimbursement carrier, let me know. I will provide the contact info of my guy. $80K In Debt To 2.5 Million Trading Stocks ragingbull.com http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3141/5dc88a035f22ea0250aest02vuc___ Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions. Each and every one is greatly appreciated. If you want to support the list - use PayPal to send contribution -- https://www.paypal.me/stumurray
Re: Stus-List Boat insurance...reimbursement vs. depreciated coverage...
I got North American Specialty Insurance Company - agreed value. Josh Muckley S/V Sea Hawk 1989 C 37+ Solomons, MD On Sun, Nov 10, 2019, 3:39 PM David Risch via CnC-List < cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote: > I may be repeating myself here, but it bears repeating. Check your boat > coverage. BoatIUS had reimbursement coverage before they switched to GEICO > as their carrier last year. Now it is depreciated value coverage. > Reimbursement coverage pays for replacing damages up to the agreed value. > Depreciated coverage drops to 20% over time to where most of our boats > would only receive 20% of fixing damages! I switched coverage when I > learned of this and I still pay the same premium. > > > > I bring this up because one of our brethren has been caught by this issue > after a recent incident. If your broker cannot find a reimbursement > carrier, let me know. I will provide the contact info of my guy. > ___ > > Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions. Each > and every one is greatly appreciated. If you want to support the list - > use PayPal to send contribution -- https://www.paypal.me/stumurray > > ___ Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions. Each and every one is greatly appreciated. If you want to support the list - use PayPal to send contribution -- https://www.paypal.me/stumurray
