Stus-List Re: Kite jibing--end for end or dip pole?

[Rod via CnC-List]

End for end using lazy sheets and guys when the wind gets up to 15 knots or 
above on my boat.  That may vary depending upon the boat, especially the older 
IOR designs, they can be very squirrely downwind.

 

Rod

 

From: Andrew Burton via CnC-List  
Sent: Monday, November 13, 2023 8:05 AM
To: Stus-List 
Cc: Andrew Burton 
Subject: Stus-List Re: Kite jibing--end for end or dip pole?

 

I favor end for end, too. As the boat gets bigger and wind pipes up perhaps 
sheets and guys on each clew will help. But the main point (and I’m coming into 
this chat late so I may have missed it), is it’s all on the helmsman. Just hold 
the boat downwind until the gybe is complete. Unless you have to go straight to 
a reach for tactical reasons, then just get the pole off quick and don’t worry 
about reattaching right away; just gybe and let the new tack rest on the 
headstay. Then worry about getting the pole on later.

 

Andy

Andrew Burton

26 Beacon Hill

Newport, RI 

USA02840

 

http://sites.google.com/site/andrewburtonyachtservices/

+401 965-5260





On Nov 12, 2023, at 22:33, Dennis C. via CnC-List mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com> > wrote:



It's a UK sock.

 

--

Dennis C.

Touche' 35-1 #83

Mandeville, LA

 

On Sun, Nov 12, 2023 at 6:36 PM Bill Coleman via CnC-List 
mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com> > wrote:

Is it a VF Shaw Chutescoop?

Bill Coleman 

 

On Sun, Nov 12, 2023, 18:51 Dennis C. via CnC-List mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com> > wrote:

Always an interesting topic.  True, conventional wisdom says end for end (EFE) 
up to 35 feet.  Also agree EFE is faster.  Don't disagree that dip pole (DP) 
gybing is safer.  We do end for end gybes on Touche'.  Our pole is 3.5 inch 
aluminum.

 

Regardless of EFE or DP gybing, I think the most important concept of gybing is 
the philosophy or mentality of the crew.  Whereas many crew tend to think a 
gybe is the chute coming across the boat, I prefer to visualize the boat 
turning under the chute.  That is, the chute, and its aspect to the wind 
doesn't really change.  The chute is moving down the course and the boat turns 
side to side under it.  To me, it's a subtle but significant way to visualize 
gybing.  The helmsperson really needs that visualization when gybing.

 

On a side note, I spent 2 hours this morning patching holes in an asymmetrical 
chute, its snuffing sock and storage bag.  It's a chute I got from a dock buddy 
for doing some work on his boat.  It should fit Touche'.  The chute was stored 
on top of his batteries.  The holes were from battery acid.

 

Next is fitting the snuffing sock with a new metal hoop.  The old one is 
broken.  It collapsed on the chute and grabbed it so it wouldn't go up or down.

 

Please show your appreciation for this list and the Photo Album site and help 
me pay the associated bills.  Make a contribution at:
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Please show your appreciation for this list and the Photo Album site and help 
me pay the associated bills.  Make a contribution at:
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Thanks for your help.
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Stus-List Re: Kite jibing--end for end or dip pole?

[Andrew Burton via CnC-List]

I favor end for end, too. As the boat gets bigger and wind pipes up perhaps sheets and guys on each clew will help. But the main point (and I’m coming into this chat late so I may have missed it), is it’s all on the helmsman. Just hold the boat downwind until the gybe is complete. Unless you have to go straight to a reach for tactical reasons, then just get the pole off quick and don’t worry about reattaching right away; just gybe and let the new tack rest on the headstay. Then worry about getting the pole on later.AndyAndrew Burton26 Beacon HillNewport, RI USA    02840http://sites.google.com/site/andrewburtonyachtservices/+401 965-5260On Nov 12, 2023, at 22:33, Dennis C. via CnC-List  wrote:It's a UK sock.--Dennis C.Touche' 35-1 #83Mandeville, LAOn Sun, Nov 12, 2023 at 6:36 PM Bill Coleman via CnC-List  wrote:Is it a VF Shaw Chutescoop?Bill Coleman On Sun, Nov 12, 2023, 18:51 Dennis C. via CnC-List  wrote:Always an interesting topic.  True, conventional wisdom says end for end (EFE) up to 35 feet.  Also agree EFE is faster.  Don't disagree that dip pole (DP) gybing is safer.  We do end for end gybes on Touche'.  Our pole is 3.5 inch aluminum.Regardless of EFE or DP gybing, I think the most important concept of gybing is the philosophy or mentality of the crew.  Whereas many crew tend to think a gybe is the chute coming across the boat, I prefer to visualize the boat turning under the chute.  That is, the chute, and its aspect to the wind doesn't really change.  The chute is moving down the course and the boat turns side to side under it.  To me, it's a subtle but significant way to visualize gybing.  The helmsperson really needs that visualization when gybing.On a side note, I spent 2 hours this morning patching holes in an asymmetrical chute, its snuffing sock and storage bag.  It's a chute I got from a dock buddy for doing some work on his boat.  It should fit Touche'.  The chute was stored on top of his batteries.  The holes were from battery acid.Next is fitting the snuffing sock with a new metal hoop.  The old one is broken.  It collapsed on the chute and grabbed it so it wouldn't go up or down.
Please show your appreciation for this list and the Photo Album site and help me pay the associated bills.  Make a contribution at:https://www.paypal.me/stumurrayThanks for your help.StuPlease show your appreciation for this list and the Photo Album site and help 
me pay the associated bills.  Make a contribution at:
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Thanks for your help.
Stu

Stus-List Re: Kite jibing--end for end or dip pole?

[Dennis C. via CnC-List]

It's a UK sock.

--
Dennis C.
Touche' 35-1 #83
Mandeville, LA

On Sun, Nov 12, 2023 at 6:36 PM Bill Coleman via CnC-List <
cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote:

> Is it a VF Shaw Chutescoop?
>
> Bill Coleman
>
> On Sun, Nov 12, 2023, 18:51 Dennis C. via CnC-List 
> wrote:
>
>> Always an interesting topic.  True, conventional wisdom says end for end
>> (EFE) up to 35 feet.  Also agree EFE is faster.  Don't disagree that dip
>> pole (DP) gybing is safer.  We do end for end gybes on Touche'.  Our pole
>> is 3.5 inch aluminum.
>>
>> Regardless of EFE or DP gybing, I think the most important concept of
>> gybing is the philosophy or mentality of the crew.  Whereas many crew tend
>> to think a gybe is the chute coming across the boat, I prefer to visualize
>> the boat turning under the chute.  That is, the chute, and its aspect to
>> the wind doesn't really change.  The chute is moving down the course and
>> the boat turns side to side under it.  To me, it's a subtle but significant
>> way to visualize gybing.  The helmsperson really needs that visualization
>> when gybing.
>>
>> On a side note, I spent 2 hours this morning patching holes in an
>> asymmetrical chute, its snuffing sock and storage bag.  It's a chute I got
>> from a dock buddy for doing some work on his boat.  It should fit Touche'.
>> The chute was stored on top of his batteries.  The holes were from battery
>> acid.
>>
>> Next is fitting the snuffing sock with a new metal hoop.  The old one is
>> broken.  It collapsed on the chute and grabbed it so it wouldn't go up or
>> down.
>>
>>
Please show your appreciation for this list and the Photo Album site and help 
me pay the associated bills.  Make a contribution at:
https://www.paypal.me/stumurray
Thanks for your help.
Stu

Stus-List Re: Kite jibing--end for end or dip pole?

[Robert Abbott via CnC-List]

Charlie:

As a former fore deck racer familiar with both end for end and dip pole 
jibbing, my preference for a 35'er would be to dip pole jib. It requires 
a little more choreography of the crew to lower and raise the pole but 
if the crew and the helmsman do it properly, for me, it is easier and a 
lot safer, especially in a stiffer breeze.
And as Dennis has pointed out, moving the boat through the jib and not 
the chute is the key to a safe and easy jib.


Rob Abbott
AZURA
C 32 -#277
Halifax, N.S.

On 2023-11-12 6:03 p.m., cenelson--- via CnC-List wrote:

Hey listers,

My 1995 C 36 XL/kcb was originally set-up for dip-pole jibes using 
an aluminum pole and used the bayonet style fittings.


After it disappeared from my storage location, I decided to go with a 
carbon fiber pole from Forte and fit it for end-for-end jibes since it 
was now pretty light (~11 lbs).  We used it that way but recently we 
decided to go with the dip-pole jibes with this pole. The consensus 
was that for this length boat, the dip pole was the way to go.


However, I think this may be a carry over in thinking from the days 
when all poles were aluminum--at some pole length, such a pole length 
makes the pole too heavy to manhandle on the fore deck.My boat is sort 
of on the border at 36 feet (actually 35.5).


Some local racers suggest using the end for end in light air and the 
dip pole when the wind is up. Of course then my fore deck crew has to 
remember how to do the dance with both methods!


So what is the opinion of the listers--especially those who race AND 
use a kite?


Thanks,

Charlie Nelson
Water Phantom





Please show your appreciation for this list and the Photo Album site and help 
me pay the associated bills.  Make a contribution at:
https://www.paypal.me/stumurray
Thanks for your help.
Stu
Please show your appreciation for this list and the Photo Album site and help 
me pay the associated bills.  Make a contribution at:
https://www.paypal.me/stumurray
Thanks for your help.
Stu

Stus-List Re: Kite jibing--end for end or dip pole?

[Bill Coleman via CnC-List]

Is it a VF Shaw Chutescoop?

Bill Coleman

On Sun, Nov 12, 2023, 18:51 Dennis C. via CnC-List 
wrote:

> Always an interesting topic.  True, conventional wisdom says end for end
> (EFE) up to 35 feet.  Also agree EFE is faster.  Don't disagree that dip
> pole (DP) gybing is safer.  We do end for end gybes on Touche'.  Our pole
> is 3.5 inch aluminum.
>
> Regardless of EFE or DP gybing, I think the most important concept of
> gybing is the philosophy or mentality of the crew.  Whereas many crew tend
> to think a gybe is the chute coming across the boat, I prefer to visualize
> the boat turning under the chute.  That is, the chute, and its aspect to
> the wind doesn't really change.  The chute is moving down the course and
> the boat turns side to side under it.  To me, it's a subtle but significant
> way to visualize gybing.  The helmsperson really needs that visualization
> when gybing.
>
> On a side note, I spent 2 hours this morning patching holes in an
> asymmetrical chute, its snuffing sock and storage bag.  It's a chute I got
> from a dock buddy for doing some work on his boat.  It should fit Touche'.
> The chute was stored on top of his batteries.  The holes were from battery
> acid.
>
> Next is fitting the snuffing sock with a new metal hoop.  The old one is
> broken.  It collapsed on the chute and grabbed it so it wouldn't go up or
> down.
>
> --
> Dennis C.
> Touche' 35-1 #83
> Mandeville, LA
>
> On Sun, Nov 12, 2023 at 4:03 PM cenelson--- via CnC-List <
> cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote:
>
>> Hey listers,
>>
>> My 1995 C 36 XL/kcb was originally set-up for dip-pole jibes using an
>> aluminum pole and used the bayonet style fittings.
>>
>> After it disappeared from my storage location, I decided to go with a
>> carbon fiber pole from Forte and fit it for end-for-end jibes since it was
>> now pretty light (~11 lbs).  We used it that way but recently we decided to
>> go with the dip-pole jibes with this pole. The consensus was that for this
>> length boat, the dip pole was the way to go.
>>
>> However, I think this may be a carry over in thinking from the days when
>> all poles were aluminum--at some pole length, such a pole length makes the
>> pole too heavy to manhandle on the fore deck.My boat is sort of on the
>> border at 36 feet (actually 35.5).
>>
>> Some local racers suggest using the end for end in light air and the dip
>> pole when the wind is up. Of course then my fore deck crew has to remember
>> how to do the dance with both methods!
>>
>> So what is the opinion of the listers--especially those who race AND use
>> a kite?
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Charlie Nelson
>> Water Phantom
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Please show your appreciation for this list and the Photo Album site and
>> help me pay the associated bills.  Make a contribution at:
>> https://www.paypal.me/stumurray
>> Thanks for your help.
>> Stu
>
>
>
> Please show your appreciation for this list and the Photo Album site and
> help me pay the associated bills.  Make a contribution at:
> https://www.paypal.me/stumurray
> Thanks for your help.
> Stu
Please show your appreciation for this list and the Photo Album site and help 
me pay the associated bills.  Make a contribution at:
https://www.paypal.me/stumurray
Thanks for your help.
Stu

Stus-List Re: Kite jibing--end for end or dip pole?

[Dennis C. via CnC-List]

Always an interesting topic.  True, conventional wisdom says end for end
(EFE) up to 35 feet.  Also agree EFE is faster.  Don't disagree that dip
pole (DP) gybing is safer.  We do end for end gybes on Touche'.  Our pole
is 3.5 inch aluminum.

Regardless of EFE or DP gybing, I think the most important concept of
gybing is the philosophy or mentality of the crew.  Whereas many crew tend
to think a gybe is the chute coming across the boat, I prefer to visualize
the boat turning under the chute.  That is, the chute, and its aspect to
the wind doesn't really change.  The chute is moving down the course and
the boat turns side to side under it.  To me, it's a subtle but significant
way to visualize gybing.  The helmsperson really needs that visualization
when gybing.

On a side note, I spent 2 hours this morning patching holes in an
asymmetrical chute, its snuffing sock and storage bag.  It's a chute I got
from a dock buddy for doing some work on his boat.  It should fit Touche'.
The chute was stored on top of his batteries.  The holes were from battery
acid.

Next is fitting the snuffing sock with a new metal hoop.  The old one is
broken.  It collapsed on the chute and grabbed it so it wouldn't go up or
down.

--
Dennis C.
Touche' 35-1 #83
Mandeville, LA

On Sun, Nov 12, 2023 at 4:03 PM cenelson--- via CnC-List <
cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote:

> Hey listers,
>
> My 1995 C 36 XL/kcb was originally set-up for dip-pole jibes using an
> aluminum pole and used the bayonet style fittings.
>
> After it disappeared from my storage location, I decided to go with a
> carbon fiber pole from Forte and fit it for end-for-end jibes since it was
> now pretty light (~11 lbs).  We used it that way but recently we decided to
> go with the dip-pole jibes with this pole. The consensus was that for this
> length boat, the dip pole was the way to go.
>
> However, I think this may be a carry over in thinking from the days when
> all poles were aluminum--at some pole length, such a pole length makes the
> pole too heavy to manhandle on the fore deck.My boat is sort of on the
> border at 36 feet (actually 35.5).
>
> Some local racers suggest using the end for end in light air and the dip
> pole when the wind is up. Of course then my fore deck crew has to remember
> how to do the dance with both methods!
>
> So what is the opinion of the listers--especially those who race AND use a
> kite?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Charlie Nelson
> Water Phantom
>
>
>
>
> Please show your appreciation for this list and the Photo Album site and
> help me pay the associated bills.  Make a contribution at:
> https://www.paypal.me/stumurray
> Thanks for your help.
> Stu
Please show your appreciation for this list and the Photo Album site and help 
me pay the associated bills.  Make a contribution at:
https://www.paypal.me/stumurray
Thanks for your help.
Stu

Stus-List Re: Kite jibing--end for end or dip pole?

[cenelson--- via CnC-List]

Thanks Alan. 
I presume you used lazy sheets and guys on the kite as well.
Certainly a strong case for doing it one way!
Charlie


Sent from the all new AOL app for iOS


On Sunday, November 12, 2023, 5:30 PM, ALAN BERGEN via CnC-List 
 wrote:

Dip pole is easier and safer. I started using dip pole on my previous boat, an 
Ericson 2-30, and until I stopped racing a year ago, I continued using dip pole 
gybes  (mor than forty years of racing that way.

Alan Bergen35 Mk III ThirstyRose City YCPortland, OR



On Sun, Nov 12, 2023 at 2:03 PM cenelson--- via CnC-List 
 wrote:

Hey listers,
My 1995 C 36 XL/kcb was originally set-up for dip-pole jibes using an 
aluminum pole and used the bayonet style fittings.
After it disappeared from my storage location, I decided to go with a carbon 
fiber pole from Forte and fit it for end-for-end jibes since it was now pretty 
light (~11 lbs).  We used it that way but recently we decided to go with the 
dip-pole jibes with this pole. The consensus was that for this length boat, the 
dip pole was the way to go.
However, I think this may be a carry over in thinking from the days when all 
poles were aluminum--at some pole length, such a pole length makes the pole too 
heavy to manhandle on the fore deck.My boat is sort of on the border at 36 feet 
(actually 35.5).

Some local racers suggest using the end for end in light air and the dip pole 
when the wind is up. Of course then my fore deck crew has to remember how to do 
the dance with both methods!
So what is the opinion of the listers--especially those who race AND use a kite?
Thanks,
Charlie NelsonWater Phantom




Please show your appreciation for this list and the Photo Album site and help 
me pay the associated bills.  Make a contribution at:
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Thanks for your help.
Stu
Please show your appreciation for this list and the Photo Album site and help 
me pay the associated bills.  Make a contribution at:
https://www.paypal.me/stumurray
Thanks for your help.
Stu


Please show your appreciation for this list and the Photo Album site and help 
me pay the associated bills.  Make a contribution at:
https://www.paypal.me/stumurray
Thanks for your help.
Stu

Stus-List Re: Kite jibing--end for end or dip pole?

[ALAN BERGEN via CnC-List]

Dip pole is easier and safer. I started using dip pole on my previous boat,
an Ericson 2-30, and until I stopped racing a year ago, I continued using
dip pole gybes  (mor than forty years of racing that way.

Alan Bergen
35 Mk III Thirsty
Rose City YC
Portland, OR



On Sun, Nov 12, 2023 at 2:03 PM cenelson--- via CnC-List <
cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote:

> Hey listers,
>
> My 1995 C 36 XL/kcb was originally set-up for dip-pole jibes using an
> aluminum pole and used the bayonet style fittings.
>
> After it disappeared from my storage location, I decided to go with a
> carbon fiber pole from Forte and fit it for end-for-end jibes since it was
> now pretty light (~11 lbs).  We used it that way but recently we decided to
> go with the dip-pole jibes with this pole. The consensus was that for this
> length boat, the dip pole was the way to go.
>
> However, I think this may be a carry over in thinking from the days when
> all poles were aluminum--at some pole length, such a pole length makes the
> pole too heavy to manhandle on the fore deck.My boat is sort of on the
> border at 36 feet (actually 35.5).
>
> Some local racers suggest using the end for end in light air and the dip
> pole when the wind is up. Of course then my fore deck crew has to remember
> how to do the dance with both methods!
>
> So what is the opinion of the listers--especially those who race AND use a
> kite?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Charlie Nelson
> Water Phantom
>
>
>
>
> Please show your appreciation for this list and the Photo Album site and
> help me pay the associated bills.  Make a contribution at:
>
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.paypal.me/stumurray__;!!LIr3w8kk_Xxm!vLy9cDYVbBfYmmXoJWhxc3FQMIjryeoEDvOz4hlVaHkmFd5kHAHalageGPaPW_6c3xI7pP0FOd3lmCY-4Rtc9T4$
> Thanks for your help.
> Stu
Please show your appreciation for this list and the Photo Album site and help 
me pay the associated bills.  Make a contribution at:
https://www.paypal.me/stumurray
Thanks for your help.
Stu