Re: Freerunner GSM Buzz fix, warranty and hopes...
Mike (mwester) wrote: [...] Good email, and good questions. But apparently, the only answer is total silence from Openmoko and the resellers. The term here would be stone-walling. So, Openmoko -- any answers? Or nothing but continued silence? Can you at least tell us why you have nothing to say? -Mike (mwester) (But, hey, at least this original email didn't get the normal flaming responses from the fanboys, which usually run along the lines of: You should be happy that Openmoko gives you anything, it's such hard work, and you have no right to expect that it actually works as advertised!, with the occasional personal insult that people who cannot do surface-mount soldering should not have purchased the phone in the first place. Sigh.) A question is what exactly what advertised. I read this page before buying: http://openmoko.com/product.html It says there is an audio output, so one shuld expect it to work. There is nothing about hi-fi sound quality though, so perhaps they get away with the weak bass. Talking works, .oggs work although the quality isn't excellent. As for the buzz, it depends on how bad it is. If the other end can't hear you properly then it is a defect. If they get some background noise that don't prevent the use as a phone, then it merely is a phone of low but useable quality. Helge Hafting ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Freerunner GSM Buzz fix, warranty and hopes...
Helge Hafting wrote: Mike (mwester) wrote: [...] Good email, and good questions. But apparently, the only answer is total silence from Openmoko and the resellers. The term here would be stone-walling. So, Openmoko -- any answers? Or nothing but continued silence? Can you at least tell us why you have nothing to say? -Mike (mwester) (But, hey, at least this original email didn't get the normal flaming responses from the fanboys, which usually run along the lines of: You should be happy that Openmoko gives you anything, it's such hard work, and you have no right to expect that it actually works as advertised!, with the occasional personal insult that people who cannot do surface-mount soldering should not have purchased the phone in the first place. Sigh.) A question is what exactly what advertised. I read this page before buying: http://openmoko.com/product.html It says there is an audio output, so one shuld expect it to work. There is nothing about hi-fi sound quality though, so perhaps they get away with the weak bass. Talking works, .oggs work although the quality isn't excellent. As for the buzz, it depends on how bad it is. If the other end can't hear you properly then it is a defect. If they get some background noise that don't prevent the use as a phone, then it merely is a phone of low but useable quality. In my opinion and that of the people I have on the other end of the line: lower quality then one might expect for a modern day telephone. E.g. for business conversation or important calls that need normal quality, I have to use another telephone. when people ask me what the buzz is, I feel reluctant to tell it is an Openmoko device because of the bad publicity. I'm trusting OpenMoko will come forth with a proper solution. Helge Hafting ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Freerunner GSM Buzz fix, warranty and hopes...
Helge Hafting ha scritto: As for the buzz, it depends on how bad it is. If the other end can't hear you properly then it is a defect. If they get some background noise that don't prevent the use as a phone, then it merely is a phone of low but useable quality. Helge Hafting The buzz is very bad! There are situations in which the other party shouts me he/she can't hear nothing but the buzz... It's definitely a defect IMHO, not only a matter of quality, in some situations it prevents communication to continue... Bye! ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Freerunner GSM Buzz fix, warranty and hopes...
Hello lists, hello Openmoko and hello dear reseller It is not my first time asking this both on the lists and to Trisoft. It won't be the last I fear... Do we have any hope for a mass fix for the GSM Buzz issue or will we have to buy a GTA03 (and get new hardware issues) ? I am more and more thinking that warranty at Openmoko is a do-it-yourself concept... While I am not a lawyer I would think a do-it-yourself warranty is no warranty, and we are meant to have one... This is not just ranting. Legally, I would say Openmoko would be troubled if some consumer association started asking questions. Same goes for Trisoft, which remain unusually silent when I ask this kind of question without being public about it. Now that everybody is in CC, let's get some answers. To me and probably many other users the critical question is not whether hardware issues get fixed fast or not. The question is a purely logistical one. Will the devices that have been sold so far be fixed one day ? Marc-Olivier Barre. -- Participez au black-out anti-HADOPI : http://www.laquadrature.net/fr/APPEL-HADOPI-blackout-du-net-francais ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Freerunner GSM Buzz fix, warranty and hopes...
The legality of DOA (Dead On Arrival) warranty depends on country of sale. In USA it's totally legal. In Poland 1 year minimum warranty has to be added. Don't know about other EU countries. All of the issues were described on the official webpage, so it's like buying used phone and than complaining about scratches. So basically all those flaws (buzz, gps, #1024 bug) were part of the hardware you bought and warranty should not cover them. All other flaws like screen stops working, some connectors not working - anything that was not described and occured during normal usage of the phone - should be covered by warranty if you have one. I'm not a lawyer but it seems logical to me. Leonti On Wed, Mar 4, 2009 at 3:29 PM, MarcO'Chapeau ma...@marcochapeau.org wrote: Hello lists, hello Openmoko and hello dear reseller It is not my first time asking this both on the lists and to Trisoft. It won't be the last I fear... Do we have any hope for a mass fix for the GSM Buzz issue or will we have to buy a GTA03 (and get new hardware issues) ? I am more and more thinking that warranty at Openmoko is a do-it-yourself concept... While I am not a lawyer I would think a do-it-yourself warranty is no warranty, and we are meant to have one... This is not just ranting. Legally, I would say Openmoko would be troubled if some consumer association started asking questions. Same goes for Trisoft, which remain unusually silent when I ask this kind of question without being public about it. Now that everybody is in CC, let's get some answers. To me and probably many other users the critical question is not whether hardware issues get fixed fast or not. The question is a purely logistical one. Will the devices that have been sold so far be fixed one day ? Marc-Olivier Barre. -- Participez au black-out anti-HADOPI : http://www.laquadrature.net/fr/APPEL-HADOPI-blackout-du-net-francais ___ hardware mailing list hardw...@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/hardware ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Freerunner GSM Buzz fix, warranty and hopes...
On Wednesday 04 March 2009, Leonti Bielski wrote: The legality of DOA (Dead On Arrival) warranty depends on country of sale. In USA it's totally legal. In Poland 1 year minimum warranty has to be added. Don't know about other EU countries. All of the issues were described on the official webpage, so it's like buying used phone and than complaining about scratches. So basically all those flaws (buzz, gps, #1024 bug) were part of the hardware you bought and warranty should not cover them. All other flaws like screen stops working, some connectors not working - anything that was not described and occured during normal usage of the phone - should be covered by warranty if you have one. I'm not a lawyer but it seems logical to me. and what about those who bought a FR from the first batch? E ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Third request: what *is* the warranty on the Freerunner?
Yeah, I have to agree with that. It seems the 2008.8 is still a bit buggy and incomplete for an everyday use. I'm back to Qtopia for now. Thanks. Mike Montour wrote: tokenwizard wrote: Ok, well as soon as I have time to deal with it I'll have to try and Frankenstein some type of power cable contraption to get this thing booted to the point the USB charge can kick in. Seems a little premature for such a function to kick in when the battery is only slightly less that half charged. Effectively, halving the battery capacity. More likely, whatever was telling you that it was half charged was mis-calibrated or had stopped updating. By the time the internal cutoff circuit activates, the battery is drained. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community -- View this message in context: http://n2.nabble.com/Third-request%3A-what-*is*-the-warranty-on-the-Freerunner--tp668835p806817.html Sent from the Openmoko Community mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Fourth Request: What is the warranty for the FreeRunner?
I think this is just the difference in mentality. I'm from Russia, and here when you buy something you have to believe only to what you see. If a company says It's the best thing in the world I don't believe it. But I see that it's good. So I buy it. Here the situation is similar. OpenMoko sells GTA02 as a GSM phone. But I read mailing list. I study wiki. I know that the phone has some important issues. But I still love the phone and the idea despite of the fact of issues. But I also would like to have replacement parts shop :) Vince M. Clark wrote: I would expect OM to warranty hardware defects. A DIY fix is acceptable as long as it doesn't require special tools or create potential to do more damage. I would much rather have OM ship me a replacement part than have to send the phone back. - Original Message - From: Yorick Moko [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED], List for Openmoko community discussion community@lists.openmoko.org Sent: Wednesday, August 27, 2008 4:34:14 PM (GMT-0700) America/Denver Subject: Re: Fourth Request: What is the warranty for the FreeRunner? On Thu, Aug 28, 2008 at 12:01 AM, Jim Morris [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Leonti wrote: In my opinion having only DOA right now is a good thing. Right now Freerunner is a phone for developers and they should accept the fact that it can have some imperfections. I want this project to grow. Do you imagine what would happen if everyone had warranty and discovered gps fix issue? Openmoko would broke on repairs (more on shipping costs). But when it will be in a mature stage I thing we will need a warranty of some kind. I have to disagree, this phone was sold as a GSM phone, if for instance the GSM buzzing issue needs a repair that cannot be done by the end user then I think OM is responsible for fixing that issue, otherwise (at least in the US) they can be held accountable for false advertising, as with the buzzing the phone is unusable as a GSM phone which was its primary purpose. I am sure they will take care of this issue though, and do the right thing. When the first batch of gta02 phones were sold, the Developer only and not usable as a primary phone issues were not well spelled out (if at all), and not spelled out at all on the OM store front. They have done a better job now of informing potential buyers, but there were an awful lot of phones sold initially without that disclaimer. I for one would have waited for GTA03 or later if it had been spelled out, just as I skipped GTA01 because it was well spelled out it was an alpha prototype for developers only. IMHO GTA02 was initially sold as Ready for end users or at least Usable as a primary phone, which turned out to be incorrect. I think the endless discussions on this list are due to that mis perception by many of the people who bought the first batches of GTA02's. I only partially regret my early purchase though. I can afford to have a $400 play toy, it has kept me busy for hours on end trying to get it to work the way I want, however that will change if I can't fix the GSM buzz issue, the way I have been able to fix many of the other issues. -- Jim Morris, http://blog.wolfman.com ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community I partially agree with Jim Morris. I surely don't regret buying my FR and I'm finding it a great toy. But he's right: it was sold to me as a phone and I expect GSM usability from it in the future. It was not advertised as a developer only phone, but as a phone ready for mass production. At this moment people refuse to call me on the FR because of the buzz. I'm very happy that the hardware engineers (like Joerg) are working on this problem, because it really should be top-priority. I'm also still hoping they find a sollution. If not I will consider myself lucky that I bought it from a European distributor and will use my warranty... But I'm a patient man; Go Hardware Engineers! :-) y ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community -- View this message in context: http://n2.nabble.com/Fourth-Request%3A-What-is-the-warranty-for-the-FreeRunner--tp786998p790627.html Sent from the Openmoko Community mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Third request: what *is* the warranty on the Freerunner?
Ok, well as soon as I have time to deal with it I'll have to try and Frankenstein some type of power cable contraption to get this thing booted to the point the USB charge can kick in. Seems a little premature for such a function to kick in when the battery is only slightly less that half charged. Effectively, halving the battery capacity. Guess it's back to my Sony Ericsson once more. :thinking: Michael Shiloh wrote: tokenwizard wrote: Well, I guess you guys were right about the battery. 0.02V!! What I don't get is how the hell the battery could go from almost half a charge to completely dead in the instant I plugged in the USB?? Sounds like the built-in under voltage protection circuit. When the voltage falls below a certain level it flips a switch to avoid total discharge, and as soon as it's charged above some level it flips back on. Yorick Moko wrote: On Tue, Aug 26, 2008 at 3:43 AM, tokenwizard [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I have one for you... I have been using my freerunner for about three weeks now. I ordered it through Koolu.com as soon as it was possible and I got it about three weeks later. The OM2007 on it was next to useless so I updated and found a bit more functionality. Later I installed Qtopia and I really liked that most of the functionality was there, but I still wanted to run an OM distro, so I tried the ASU 2008.8. I really dislike where that one is going as far as the illume UI. So I went back to 2008.4 and kept it that way for a bit. TOday I plugged my phone into the USB on my PC to charge as I always have (while the phone was running) and the screen immediately went black. No, with this being a development phone, this didn't really phase me at first. This thing has seen its fair share of mysterious power issues. But this time was different. No matter what I do, I cannot get the damn thing to come back to life. I know it's not the battery because it was almost half full when I plugged it in. But I have tried holding the Power button for 10 seconds, and the Power/Aux and Aux/Power combos. I've tried these thing both with and without the AC adapter attached and after pulling the battery for about a minute. It seems as I have a dead phone now. I don't even hear that distinctive little hiss that you normally hear when you first press the Power button! Anybody seen this before?? James steve-2 wrote: I have a tiny tiny head so all the hats fit. we are putting together a policy for people who bought from the openmoko store. there are several issues. We offer a 14 day DOA Warrenty and a 28 day warrenty for 10 packs. The issue is what does DOA mean? Dead on Arrival. If your GSM doesnt work, but getting a download fixes it? is that DOA? If your GSM doesnt work but getting a new card fixes it? is that DOA? same with GPS, did the software download fix it? If you send the phone back and it works fine, what to do? if you send back a phone and it works fine, who pays for shipping? Now in the US at retail you can return something if the sky is blue. We can't work that way and build a open source phone. well, we can but the cost of blue sky returns would have to be added to the phone. In the end, as micheal will tell you, I work every case. So, If you have a problem, email me or micheal. tell us that you tried the fixes we suggested. And we will work from there. Michael Shiloh wrote: ian douglas wrote: Sean/Michael/Community: It's been asked several times, especially regarding the GPS/SD fixes and people ordering pico-farad capacitors and soldering irons ... I'm hoping that at some point the squeaky wheel cliche will work itself out and we'll get an answer. The boxes the Freerunners came in gave no information about warranty, we need to hear from Openmoko about what exactly the warranty does cover? My understanding of the warranty time limit is that single purchases got a 14-day warranty, and group purchases were given a 28-day warranty, but we've never been told what the warranty includes. I'd really like to outline some of this on the wiki since we're cleaning it all up, etc., and since few users will ever search the mailing list archives anyway. Will it include any recall/repairs needed to fix the GPS/SD problems at a hardware level? Thanks, Ian Ian, I agree with you, and I'm sure Steve and Sean (and everyone at Openmoko) do as well. I'm sure that the only reason that Steve has not responded (for he is the one to respond to this) is that he is completely overwhelmed by email, manufacturing and shipping, and releasing stuff this week. He is wearing the hats of Marketing, Operations, Manufacturing, Shipping, Testing, Hardware and Software final test, Field Engineer Manager, Customer Service Manager, Product Oversight (a new category I just created), Trade Show Coordinator, Vertical Market Manager, and many others I can't even remember
Fourth Request: What is the warranty for the FreeRunner?
Any sort of warranty? A purchasable extended warranty? Spare parts prices? Anything? -- H. Lally Singh Ph.D. Candidate, Computer Science Virginia Tech ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Fourth Request: What is the warranty for the FreeRunner?
Warranty depends only from the distributor. Phone buyed from the openmoko store only have the DOA warranty (14 days). Please if you want to know more things search the mailing list (EG: what DOA means). 2008/8/27 Lally Singh [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Any sort of warranty? A purchasable extended warranty? Spare parts prices? Anything? -- H. Lally Singh Ph.D. Candidate, Computer Science Virginia Tech ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Fourth Request: What is the warranty for the FreeRunner?
OM said that they were deciding on something beyond DOA. Also, Koolu doesn't offer a warranty (just the same 14/28 DOA warranty), and they're the only place you can get a FR in north america, so there's no help there. On Wed, Aug 27, 2008 at 11:02 AM, Francesco Cat [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Warranty depends only from the distributor. Phone buyed from the openmoko store only have the DOA warranty (14 days). Please if you want to know more things search the mailing list (EG: what DOA means). 2008/8/27 Lally Singh [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Any sort of warranty? A purchasable extended warranty? Spare parts prices? Anything? -- H. Lally Singh Ph.D. Candidate, Computer Science Virginia Tech ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community -- H. Lally Singh Ph.D. Candidate, Computer Science Virginia Tech ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Fourth Request: What is the warranty for the FreeRunner?
On Wed, Aug 27, 2008 at 8:57 AM, Lally Singh [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: OM said that they were deciding on something beyond DOA. Also, Koolu doesn't offer a warranty (just the same 14/28 DOA warranty), and they're the only place you can get a FR in north america, so there's no help there. I thought Steve's email was pretty clear, though its probably not what you wanted to hear: http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2008-August/027044.html They're working on policy. I'm sure they'll announce it when its ready. In the mean time the policy is DOA. If you have problems, email Steve and he'll try to help. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Fourth Request: What is the warranty for the FreeRunner?
Yeah, I know. I was hoping I'd get a response about the policy they're working on. Is it a proper warranty? An extended one (e.g. pay extra for a warranty)? Or just a declaration of what constitutes a defect that OM will repair? On Wed, Aug 27, 2008 at 3:22 PM, Steven Kurylo [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Wed, Aug 27, 2008 at 8:57 AM, Lally Singh [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: OM said that they were deciding on something beyond DOA. Also, Koolu doesn't offer a warranty (just the same 14/28 DOA warranty), and they're the only place you can get a FR in north america, so there's no help there. I thought Steve's email was pretty clear, though its probably not what you wanted to hear: http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2008-August/027044.html They're working on policy. I'm sure they'll announce it when its ready. In the mean time the policy is DOA. If you have problems, email Steve and he'll try to help. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community -- H. Lally Singh Ph.D. Candidate, Computer Science Virginia Tech ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Fourth Request: What is the warranty for the FreeRunner?
In my opinion having only DOA right now is a good thing. Right now Freerunner is a phone for developers and they should accept the fact that it can have some imperfections. I want this project to grow. Do you imagine what would happen if everyone had warranty and discovered gps fix issue? Openmoko would broke on repairs (more on shipping costs). But when it will be in a mature stage I thing we will need a warranty of some kind. Lally Singh wrote: Yeah, I know. I was hoping I'd get a response about the policy they're working on. Is it a proper warranty? An extended one (e.g. pay extra for a warranty)? Or just a declaration of what constitutes a defect that OM will repair? On Wed, Aug 27, 2008 at 3:22 PM, Steven Kurylo [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Wed, Aug 27, 2008 at 8:57 AM, Lally Singh [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: OM said that they were deciding on something beyond DOA. Also, Koolu doesn't offer a warranty (just the same 14/28 DOA warranty), and they're the only place you can get a FR in north america, so there's no help there. I thought Steve's email was pretty clear, though its probably not what you wanted to hear: http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2008-August/027044.html They're working on policy. I'm sure they'll announce it when its ready. In the mean time the policy is DOA. If you have problems, email Steve and he'll try to help. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community -- H. Lally Singh Ph.D. Candidate, Computer Science Virginia Tech ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community -- View this message in context: http://n2.nabble.com/Fourth-Request%3A-What-is-the-warranty-for-the-FreeRunner--tp786998p788038.html Sent from the Openmoko Community mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Fourth Request: What is the warranty for the FreeRunner?
On Wed, 2008-08-27 at 13:51 -0700, Leonti wrote: In my opinion having only DOA right now is a good thing. Right now Freerunner is a phone for developers and they should accept the fact that it can have some imperfections. I want this project to grow. Do you imagine what would happen if everyone had warranty and discovered gps fix issue? Openmoko would broke on repairs (more on shipping costs). But when it will be in a mature stage I thing we will need a warranty of some kind. I partially agree, but IMHO OM should at least offer parts for DIY repairs. Shit happens, you know. It does not make sense to throw away working neo if only, say, screen is broken, or speaker does not speak. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Fourth Request: What is the warranty for the FreeRunner?
Leonti wrote: In my opinion having only DOA right now is a good thing. Right now Freerunner is a phone for developers and they should accept the fact that it can have some imperfections. I want this project to grow. Do you imagine what would happen if everyone had warranty and discovered gps fix issue? Openmoko would broke on repairs (more on shipping costs). But when it will be in a mature stage I thing we will need a warranty of some kind. I have to disagree, this phone was sold as a GSM phone, if for instance the GSM buzzing issue needs a repair that cannot be done by the end user then I think OM is responsible for fixing that issue, otherwise (at least in the US) they can be held accountable for false advertising, as with the buzzing the phone is unusable as a GSM phone which was its primary purpose. I am sure they will take care of this issue though, and do the right thing. When the first batch of gta02 phones were sold, the Developer only and not usable as a primary phone issues were not well spelled out (if at all), and not spelled out at all on the OM store front. They have done a better job now of informing potential buyers, but there were an awful lot of phones sold initially without that disclaimer. I for one would have waited for GTA03 or later if it had been spelled out, just as I skipped GTA01 because it was well spelled out it was an alpha prototype for developers only. IMHO GTA02 was initially sold as Ready for end users or at least Usable as a primary phone, which turned out to be incorrect. I think the endless discussions on this list are due to that mis perception by many of the people who bought the first batches of GTA02's. I only partially regret my early purchase though. I can afford to have a $400 play toy, it has kept me busy for hours on end trying to get it to work the way I want, however that will change if I can't fix the GSM buzz issue, the way I have been able to fix many of the other issues. -- Jim Morris, http://blog.wolfman.com ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Fourth Request: What is the warranty for the FreeRunner?
On Thu, Aug 28, 2008 at 12:01 AM, Jim Morris [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Leonti wrote: In my opinion having only DOA right now is a good thing. Right now Freerunner is a phone for developers and they should accept the fact that it can have some imperfections. I want this project to grow. Do you imagine what would happen if everyone had warranty and discovered gps fix issue? Openmoko would broke on repairs (more on shipping costs). But when it will be in a mature stage I thing we will need a warranty of some kind. I have to disagree, this phone was sold as a GSM phone, if for instance the GSM buzzing issue needs a repair that cannot be done by the end user then I think OM is responsible for fixing that issue, otherwise (at least in the US) they can be held accountable for false advertising, as with the buzzing the phone is unusable as a GSM phone which was its primary purpose. I am sure they will take care of this issue though, and do the right thing. When the first batch of gta02 phones were sold, the Developer only and not usable as a primary phone issues were not well spelled out (if at all), and not spelled out at all on the OM store front. They have done a better job now of informing potential buyers, but there were an awful lot of phones sold initially without that disclaimer. I for one would have waited for GTA03 or later if it had been spelled out, just as I skipped GTA01 because it was well spelled out it was an alpha prototype for developers only. IMHO GTA02 was initially sold as Ready for end users or at least Usable as a primary phone, which turned out to be incorrect. I think the endless discussions on this list are due to that mis perception by many of the people who bought the first batches of GTA02's. I only partially regret my early purchase though. I can afford to have a $400 play toy, it has kept me busy for hours on end trying to get it to work the way I want, however that will change if I can't fix the GSM buzz issue, the way I have been able to fix many of the other issues. -- Jim Morris, http://blog.wolfman.com ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community I partially agree with Jim Morris. I surely don't regret buying my FR and I'm finding it a great toy. But he's right: it was sold to me as a phone and I expect GSM usability from it in the future. It was not advertised as a developer only phone, but as a phone ready for mass production. At this moment people refuse to call me on the FR because of the buzz. I'm very happy that the hardware engineers (like Joerg) are working on this problem, because it really should be top-priority. I'm also still hoping they find a sollution. If not I will consider myself lucky that I bought it from a European distributor and will use my warranty... But I'm a patient man; Go Hardware Engineers! :-) y ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Fourth Request: What is the warranty for the FreeRunner?
I would expect OM to warranty hardware defects. A DIY fix is acceptable as long as it doesn't require special tools or create potential to do more damage. I would much rather have OM ship me a replacement part than have to send the phone back. - Original Message - From: Yorick Moko [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED], List for Openmoko community discussion community@lists.openmoko.org Sent: Wednesday, August 27, 2008 4:34:14 PM (GMT-0700) America/Denver Subject: Re: Fourth Request: What is the warranty for the FreeRunner? On Thu, Aug 28, 2008 at 12:01 AM, Jim Morris [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Leonti wrote: In my opinion having only DOA right now is a good thing. Right now Freerunner is a phone for developers and they should accept the fact that it can have some imperfections. I want this project to grow. Do you imagine what would happen if everyone had warranty and discovered gps fix issue? Openmoko would broke on repairs (more on shipping costs). But when it will be in a mature stage I thing we will need a warranty of some kind. I have to disagree, this phone was sold as a GSM phone, if for instance the GSM buzzing issue needs a repair that cannot be done by the end user then I think OM is responsible for fixing that issue, otherwise (at least in the US) they can be held accountable for false advertising, as with the buzzing the phone is unusable as a GSM phone which was its primary purpose. I am sure they will take care of this issue though, and do the right thing. When the first batch of gta02 phones were sold, the Developer only and not usable as a primary phone issues were not well spelled out (if at all), and not spelled out at all on the OM store front. They have done a better job now of informing potential buyers, but there were an awful lot of phones sold initially without that disclaimer. I for one would have waited for GTA03 or later if it had been spelled out, just as I skipped GTA01 because it was well spelled out it was an alpha prototype for developers only. IMHO GTA02 was initially sold as Ready for end users or at least Usable as a primary phone, which turned out to be incorrect. I think the endless discussions on this list are due to that mis perception by many of the people who bought the first batches of GTA02's. I only partially regret my early purchase though. I can afford to have a $400 play toy, it has kept me busy for hours on end trying to get it to work the way I want, however that will change if I can't fix the GSM buzz issue, the way I have been able to fix many of the other issues. -- Jim Morris, http://blog.wolfman.com ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community I partially agree with Jim Morris. I surely don't regret buying my FR and I'm finding it a great toy. But he's right: it was sold to me as a phone and I expect GSM usability from it in the future. It was not advertised as a developer only phone, but as a phone ready for mass production. At this moment people refuse to call me on the FR because of the buzz. I'm very happy that the hardware engineers (like Joerg) are working on this problem, because it really should be top-priority. I'm also still hoping they find a sollution. If not I will consider myself lucky that I bought it from a European distributor and will use my warranty... But I'm a patient man; Go Hardware Engineers! :-) y ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Third request: what *is* the warranty on the Freerunner?
tokenwizard wrote: Ok, well as soon as I have time to deal with it I'll have to try and Frankenstein some type of power cable contraption to get this thing booted to the point the USB charge can kick in. Seems a little premature for such a function to kick in when the battery is only slightly less that half charged. Effectively, halving the battery capacity. More likely, whatever was telling you that it was half charged was mis-calibrated or had stopped updating. By the time the internal cutoff circuit activates, the battery is drained. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Third request: what *is* the warranty on the Freerunner?
On Tue, Aug 26, 2008 at 3:43 AM, tokenwizard [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I have one for you... I have been using my freerunner for about three weeks now. I ordered it through Koolu.com as soon as it was possible and I got it about three weeks later. The OM2007 on it was next to useless so I updated and found a bit more functionality. Later I installed Qtopia and I really liked that most of the functionality was there, but I still wanted to run an OM distro, so I tried the ASU 2008.8. I really dislike where that one is going as far as the illume UI. So I went back to 2008.4 and kept it that way for a bit. TOday I plugged my phone into the USB on my PC to charge as I always have (while the phone was running) and the screen immediately went black. No, with this being a development phone, this didn't really phase me at first. This thing has seen its fair share of mysterious power issues. But this time was different. No matter what I do, I cannot get the damn thing to come back to life. I know it's not the battery because it was almost half full when I plugged it in. But I have tried holding the Power button for 10 seconds, and the Power/Aux and Aux/Power combos. I've tried these thing both with and without the AC adapter attached and after pulling the battery for about a minute. It seems as I have a dead phone now. I don't even hear that distinctive little hiss that you normally hear when you first press the Power button! Anybody seen this before?? James steve-2 wrote: I have a tiny tiny head so all the hats fit. we are putting together a policy for people who bought from the openmoko store. there are several issues. We offer a 14 day DOA Warrenty and a 28 day warrenty for 10 packs. The issue is what does DOA mean? Dead on Arrival. If your GSM doesnt work, but getting a download fixes it? is that DOA? If your GSM doesnt work but getting a new card fixes it? is that DOA? same with GPS, did the software download fix it? If you send the phone back and it works fine, what to do? if you send back a phone and it works fine, who pays for shipping? Now in the US at retail you can return something if the sky is blue. We can't work that way and build a open source phone. well, we can but the cost of blue sky returns would have to be added to the phone. In the end, as micheal will tell you, I work every case. So, If you have a problem, email me or micheal. tell us that you tried the fixes we suggested. And we will work from there. Michael Shiloh wrote: ian douglas wrote: Sean/Michael/Community: It's been asked several times, especially regarding the GPS/SD fixes and people ordering pico-farad capacitors and soldering irons ... I'm hoping that at some point the squeaky wheel cliche will work itself out and we'll get an answer. The boxes the Freerunners came in gave no information about warranty, we need to hear from Openmoko about what exactly the warranty does cover? My understanding of the warranty time limit is that single purchases got a 14-day warranty, and group purchases were given a 28-day warranty, but we've never been told what the warranty includes. I'd really like to outline some of this on the wiki since we're cleaning it all up, etc., and since few users will ever search the mailing list archives anyway. Will it include any recall/repairs needed to fix the GPS/SD problems at a hardware level? Thanks, Ian Ian, I agree with you, and I'm sure Steve and Sean (and everyone at Openmoko) do as well. I'm sure that the only reason that Steve has not responded (for he is the one to respond to this) is that he is completely overwhelmed by email, manufacturing and shipping, and releasing stuff this week. He is wearing the hats of Marketing, Operations, Manufacturing, Shipping, Testing, Hardware and Software final test, Field Engineer Manager, Customer Service Manager, Product Oversight (a new category I just created), Trade Show Coordinator, Vertical Market Manager, and many others I can't even remember. I will be talking to him today and I'll see if we can address this issue. Thanks for helping to keep us focused, Michael ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community -- View this message in context: http://n2.nabble.com/Third-request%3A-what-*is*-the-warranty-on-the-Freerunner--tp668835p782970.html Sent from the Openmoko Community mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community I've had this problem before I removed the battery, waited a few minutes, inserted the battery again
Re: Third request: what *is* the warranty on the Freerunner?
A short will do it. tokenwizard wrote: Well, I guess you guys were right about the battery. 0.02V!! What I don't get is how the hell the battery could go from almost half a charge to completely dead in the instant I plugged in the USB?? Yorick Moko wrote: On Tue, Aug 26, 2008 at 3:43 AM, tokenwizard [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I have one for you... I have been using my freerunner for about three weeks now. I ordered it through Koolu.com as soon as it was possible and I got it about three weeks later. The OM2007 on it was next to useless so I updated and found a bit more functionality. Later I installed Qtopia and I really liked that most of the functionality was there, but I still wanted to run an OM distro, so I tried the ASU 2008.8. I really dislike where that one is going as far as the illume UI. So I went back to 2008.4 and kept it that way for a bit. TOday I plugged my phone into the USB on my PC to charge as I always have (while the phone was running) and the screen immediately went black. No, with this being a development phone, this didn't really phase me at first. This thing has seen its fair share of mysterious power issues. But this time was different. No matter what I do, I cannot get the damn thing to come back to life. I know it's not the battery because it was almost half full when I plugged it in. But I have tried holding the Power button for 10 seconds, and the Power/Aux and Aux/Power combos. I've tried these thing both with and without the AC adapter attached and after pulling the battery for about a minute. It seems as I have a dead phone now. I don't even hear that distinctive little hiss that you normally hear when you first press the Power button! Anybody seen this before?? James steve-2 wrote: I have a tiny tiny head so all the hats fit. we are putting together a policy for people who bought from the openmoko store. there are several issues. We offer a 14 day DOA Warrenty and a 28 day warrenty for 10 packs. The issue is what does DOA mean? Dead on Arrival. If your GSM doesnt work, but getting a download fixes it? is that DOA? If your GSM doesnt work but getting a new card fixes it? is that DOA? same with GPS, did the software download fix it? If you send the phone back and it works fine, what to do? if you send back a phone and it works fine, who pays for shipping? Now in the US at retail you can return something if the sky is blue. We can't work that way and build a open source phone. well, we can but the cost of blue sky returns would have to be added to the phone. In the end, as micheal will tell you, I work every case. So, If you have a problem, email me or micheal. tell us that you tried the fixes we suggested. And we will work from there. Michael Shiloh wrote: ian douglas wrote: Sean/Michael/Community: It's been asked several times, especially regarding the GPS/SD fixes and people ordering pico-farad capacitors and soldering irons ... I'm hoping that at some point the squeaky wheel cliche will work itself out and we'll get an answer. The boxes the Freerunners came in gave no information about warranty, we need to hear from Openmoko about what exactly the warranty does cover? My understanding of the warranty time limit is that single purchases got a 14-day warranty, and group purchases were given a 28-day warranty, but we've never been told what the warranty includes. I'd really like to outline some of this on the wiki since we're cleaning it all up, etc., and since few users will ever search the mailing list archives anyway. Will it include any recall/repairs needed to fix the GPS/SD problems at a hardware level? Thanks, Ian Ian, I agree with you, and I'm sure Steve and Sean (and everyone at Openmoko) do as well. I'm sure that the only reason that Steve has not responded (for he is the one to respond to this) is that he is completely overwhelmed by email, manufacturing and shipping, and releasing stuff this week. He is wearing the hats of Marketing, Operations, Manufacturing, Shipping, Testing, Hardware and Software final test, Field Engineer Manager, Customer Service Manager, Product Oversight (a new category I just created), Trade Show Coordinator, Vertical Market Manager, and many others I can't even remember. I will be talking to him today and I'll see if we can address this issue. Thanks for helping to keep us focused, Michael ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community -- View this message in context: http://n2.nabble.com/Third-request%3A-what-*is*-the-warranty-on-the-Freerunner--tp668835p782970.html Sent from the Openmoko Community mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community
Re: Third request: what *is* the warranty on the Freerunner?
I have one for you... I have been using my freerunner for about three weeks now. I ordered it through Koolu.com as soon as it was possible and I got it about three weeks later. The OM2007 on it was next to useless so I updated and found a bit more functionality. Later I installed Qtopia and I really liked that most of the functionality was there, but I still wanted to run an OM distro, so I tried the ASU 2008.8. I really dislike where that one is going as far as the illume UI. So I went back to 2008.4 and kept it that way for a bit. TOday I plugged my phone into the USB on my PC to charge as I always have (while the phone was running) and the screen immediately went black. No, with this being a development phone, this didn't really phase me at first. This thing has seen its fair share of mysterious power issues. But this time was different. No matter what I do, I cannot get the damn thing to come back to life. I know it's not the battery because it was almost half full when I plugged it in. But I have tried holding the Power button for 10 seconds, and the Power/Aux and Aux/Power combos. I've tried these thing both with and without the AC adapter attached and after pulling the battery for about a minute. It seems as I have a dead phone now. I don't even hear that distinctive little hiss that you normally hear when you first press the Power button! Anybody seen this before?? James steve-2 wrote: I have a tiny tiny head so all the hats fit. we are putting together a policy for people who bought from the openmoko store. there are several issues. We offer a 14 day DOA Warrenty and a 28 day warrenty for 10 packs. The issue is what does DOA mean? Dead on Arrival. If your GSM doesnt work, but getting a download fixes it? is that DOA? If your GSM doesnt work but getting a new card fixes it? is that DOA? same with GPS, did the software download fix it? If you send the phone back and it works fine, what to do? if you send back a phone and it works fine, who pays for shipping? Now in the US at retail you can return something if the sky is blue. We can't work that way and build a open source phone. well, we can but the cost of blue sky returns would have to be added to the phone. In the end, as micheal will tell you, I work every case. So, If you have a problem, email me or micheal. tell us that you tried the fixes we suggested. And we will work from there. Michael Shiloh wrote: ian douglas wrote: Sean/Michael/Community: It's been asked several times, especially regarding the GPS/SD fixes and people ordering pico-farad capacitors and soldering irons ... I'm hoping that at some point the squeaky wheel cliche will work itself out and we'll get an answer. The boxes the Freerunners came in gave no information about warranty, we need to hear from Openmoko about what exactly the warranty does cover? My understanding of the warranty time limit is that single purchases got a 14-day warranty, and group purchases were given a 28-day warranty, but we've never been told what the warranty includes. I'd really like to outline some of this on the wiki since we're cleaning it all up, etc., and since few users will ever search the mailing list archives anyway. Will it include any recall/repairs needed to fix the GPS/SD problems at a hardware level? Thanks, Ian Ian, I agree with you, and I'm sure Steve and Sean (and everyone at Openmoko) do as well. I'm sure that the only reason that Steve has not responded (for he is the one to respond to this) is that he is completely overwhelmed by email, manufacturing and shipping, and releasing stuff this week. He is wearing the hats of Marketing, Operations, Manufacturing, Shipping, Testing, Hardware and Software final test, Field Engineer Manager, Customer Service Manager, Product Oversight (a new category I just created), Trade Show Coordinator, Vertical Market Manager, and many others I can't even remember. I will be talking to him today and I'll see if we can address this issue. Thanks for helping to keep us focused, Michael ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community -- View this message in context: http://n2.nabble.com/Third-request%3A-what-*is*-the-warranty-on-the-Freerunner--tp668835p782970.html Sent from the Openmoko Community mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Third request: what *is* the warranty on the Freerunner?
On Mon, 2008-08-25 at 18:43 -0700, tokenwizard wrote: I have one for you... I have been using my freerunner for about three weeks now. I ordered it ... and the Power/Aux and Aux/Power combos. I've tried these thing both with and without the AC adapter attached and after pulling the battery for about a minute. It seems as I have a dead phone now. I don't even hear that distinctive little hiss that you normally hear when you first press the Power button! Anybody seen this before?? James Id still bet on the battery - try another to confirm. If the mains adaptor doesnt work, does the usb help? - (did for me at one event) Ive seen the battery go flat in a couple of hours with the FR too hot to touch Ive seen occasions when plugging in USB it never went to 500ma charge, and slowly discharged with only 100ma available which is less than the FR running draw Ive seen occasions where I plugged in the mains charger - and it didnt charge, again flattening the battery further until discovered and corrected. Currently everything seems to mostly work as it should (uboot/kernel updates!), but there is an element of randomness to when the next affliction strikes! BillK ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Third request: what *is* the warranty on the Freerunner?
you may have the same problem I discovered some while back. When I wore my tester hat. Micheal may be able to help you. Micheal, can you assist here? or tony? tokenwizard wrote: I have one for you... I have been using my freerunner for about three weeks now. I ordered it through Koolu.com as soon as it was possible and I got it about three weeks later. The OM2007 on it was next to useless so I updated and found a bit more functionality. Later I installed Qtopia and I really liked that most of the functionality was there, but I still wanted to run an OM distro, so I tried the ASU 2008.8. I really dislike where that one is going as far as the illume UI. So I went back to 2008.4 and kept it that way for a bit. TOday I plugged my phone into the USB on my PC to charge as I always have (while the phone was running) and the screen immediately went black. No, with this being a development phone, this didn't really phase me at first. This thing has seen its fair share of mysterious power issues. But this time was different. No matter what I do, I cannot get the damn thing to come back to life. I know it's not the battery because it was almost half full when I plugged it in. But I have tried holding the Power button for 10 seconds, and the Power/Aux and Aux/Power combos. I've tried these thing both with and without the AC adapter attached and after pulling the battery for about a minute. It seems as I have a dead phone now. I don't even hear that distinctive little hiss that you normally hear when you first press the Power button! Anybody seen this before?? James steve-2 wrote: I have a tiny tiny head so all the hats fit. we are putting together a policy for people who bought from the openmoko store. there are several issues. We offer a 14 day DOA Warrenty and a 28 day warrenty for 10 packs. The issue is what does DOA mean? Dead on Arrival. If your GSM doesnt work, but getting a download fixes it? is that DOA? If your GSM doesnt work but getting a new card fixes it? is that DOA? same with GPS, did the software download fix it? If you send the phone back and it works fine, what to do? if you send back a phone and it works fine, who pays for shipping? Now in the US at retail you can return something if the sky is blue. We can't work that way and build a open source phone. well, we can but the cost of blue sky returns would have to be added to the phone. In the end, as micheal will tell you, I work every case. So, If you have a problem, email me or micheal. tell us that you tried the fixes we suggested. And we will work from there. Michael Shiloh wrote: ian douglas wrote: Sean/Michael/Community: It's been asked several times, especially regarding the GPS/SD fixes and people ordering pico-farad capacitors and soldering irons ... I'm hoping that at some point the squeaky wheel cliche will work itself out and we'll get an answer. The boxes the Freerunners came in gave no information about warranty, we need to hear from Openmoko about what exactly the warranty does cover? My understanding of the warranty time limit is that single purchases got a 14-day warranty, and group purchases were given a 28-day warranty, but we've never been told what the warranty includes. I'd really like to outline some of this on the wiki since we're cleaning it all up, etc., and since few users will ever search the mailing list archives anyway. Will it include any recall/repairs needed to fix the GPS/SD problems at a hardware level? Thanks, Ian Ian, I agree with you, and I'm sure Steve and Sean (and everyone at Openmoko) do as well. I'm sure that the only reason that Steve has not responded (for he is the one to respond to this) is that he is completely overwhelmed by email, manufacturing and shipping, and releasing stuff this week. He is wearing the hats of Marketing, Operations, Manufacturing, Shipping, Testing, Hardware and Software final test, Field Engineer Manager, Customer Service Manager, Product Oversight (a new category I just created), Trade Show Coordinator, Vertical Market Manager, and many others I can't even remember. I will be talking to him today and I'll see if we can address this issue. Thanks for helping to keep us focused, Michael ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Third request: what *is* the warranty on the Freerunner?
Steve Mosher wrote: you may have the same problem I discovered some while back. When I wore my tester hat. Micheal may be able to help you. Micheal, can you assist here? or tony? There was a response (before Steve's) that suggested a battery issue. I agree with that, and would want first to confirm that the battery is not dead. Can you measure the battery voltage, or test with another battery? tokenwizard wrote: I have one for you... I have been using my freerunner for about three weeks now. I ordered it through Koolu.com as soon as it was possible and I got it about three weeks later. The OM2007 on it was next to useless so I updated and found a bit more functionality. Later I installed Qtopia and I really liked that most of the functionality was there, but I still wanted to run an OM distro, so I tried the ASU 2008.8. I really dislike where that one is going as far as the illume UI. So I went back to 2008.4 and kept it that way for a bit. TOday I plugged my phone into the USB on my PC to charge as I always have (while the phone was running) and the screen immediately went black. No, with this being a development phone, this didn't really phase me at first. This thing has seen its fair share of mysterious power issues. But this time was different. No matter what I do, I cannot get the damn thing to come back to life. I know it's not the battery because it was almost half full when I plugged it in. But I have tried holding the Power button for 10 seconds, and the Power/Aux and Aux/Power combos. I've tried these thing both with and without the AC adapter attached and after pulling the battery for about a minute. It seems as I have a dead phone now. I don't even hear that distinctive little hiss that you normally hear when you first press the Power button! Anybody seen this before?? James steve-2 wrote: I have a tiny tiny head so all the hats fit. we are putting together a policy for people who bought from the openmoko store. there are several issues. We offer a 14 day DOA Warrenty and a 28 day warrenty for 10 packs. The issue is what does DOA mean? Dead on Arrival. If your GSM doesnt work, but getting a download fixes it? is that DOA? If your GSM doesnt work but getting a new card fixes it? is that DOA? same with GPS, did the software download fix it? If you send the phone back and it works fine, what to do? if you send back a phone and it works fine, who pays for shipping? Now in the US at retail you can return something if the sky is blue. We can't work that way and build a open source phone. well, we can but the cost of blue sky returns would have to be added to the phone. In the end, as micheal will tell you, I work every case. So, If you have a problem, email me or micheal. tell us that you tried the fixes we suggested. And we will work from there. Michael Shiloh wrote: ian douglas wrote: Sean/Michael/Community: It's been asked several times, especially regarding the GPS/SD fixes and people ordering pico-farad capacitors and soldering irons ... I'm hoping that at some point the squeaky wheel cliche will work itself out and we'll get an answer. The boxes the Freerunners came in gave no information about warranty, we need to hear from Openmoko about what exactly the warranty does cover? My understanding of the warranty time limit is that single purchases got a 14-day warranty, and group purchases were given a 28-day warranty, but we've never been told what the warranty includes. I'd really like to outline some of this on the wiki since we're cleaning it all up, etc., and since few users will ever search the mailing list archives anyway. Will it include any recall/repairs needed to fix the GPS/SD problems at a hardware level? Thanks, Ian Ian, I agree with you, and I'm sure Steve and Sean (and everyone at Openmoko) do as well. I'm sure that the only reason that Steve has not responded (for he is the one to respond to this) is that he is completely overwhelmed by email, manufacturing and shipping, and releasing stuff this week. He is wearing the hats of Marketing, Operations, Manufacturing, Shipping, Testing, Hardware and Software final test, Field Engineer Manager, Customer Service Manager, Product Oversight (a new category I just created), Trade Show Coordinator, Vertical Market Manager, and many others I can't even remember. I will be talking to him today and I'll see if we can address this issue. Thanks for helping to keep us focused, Michael ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list
Re: 2008.9 - Was Re: Third request: what *is* the warranty on theFreerunner?
dont tempt me Michele Renda wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 It will be very very nice _alpha_ release :) Gilles Casse wrote: So why not a next _alpha_ release on 2008.09.10 at 11:12:13 :-) Gilles -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFIostbSIAU/I6SkT0RAi7MAKCPRr/gUkYn0Z7OLkZv76DTXLBskwCdENqx LjRd5glEF76yhYPSD7xaLBs= =/ouf -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Third request: what *is* the warranty on the Freerunner?
I have a tiny tiny head so all the hats fit. we are putting together a policy for people who bought from the openmoko store. there are several issues. We offer a 14 day DOA Warrenty and a 28 day warrenty for 10 packs. The issue is what does DOA mean? Dead on Arrival. If your GSM doesnt work, but getting a download fixes it? is that DOA? If your GSM doesnt work but getting a new card fixes it? is that DOA? same with GPS, did the software download fix it? If you send the phone back and it works fine, what to do? if you send back a phone and it works fine, who pays for shipping? Now in the US at retail you can return something if the sky is blue. We can't work that way and build a open source phone. well, we can but the cost of blue sky returns would have to be added to the phone. In the end, as micheal will tell you, I work every case. So, If you have a problem, email me or micheal. tell us that you tried the fixes we suggested. And we will work from there. Michael Shiloh wrote: ian douglas wrote: Sean/Michael/Community: It's been asked several times, especially regarding the GPS/SD fixes and people ordering pico-farad capacitors and soldering irons ... I'm hoping that at some point the squeaky wheel cliche will work itself out and we'll get an answer. The boxes the Freerunners came in gave no information about warranty, we need to hear from Openmoko about what exactly the warranty does cover? My understanding of the warranty time limit is that single purchases got a 14-day warranty, and group purchases were given a 28-day warranty, but we've never been told what the warranty includes. I'd really like to outline some of this on the wiki since we're cleaning it all up, etc., and since few users will ever search the mailing list archives anyway. Will it include any recall/repairs needed to fix the GPS/SD problems at a hardware level? Thanks, Ian Ian, I agree with you, and I'm sure Steve and Sean (and everyone at Openmoko) do as well. I'm sure that the only reason that Steve has not responded (for he is the one to respond to this) is that he is completely overwhelmed by email, manufacturing and shipping, and releasing stuff this week. He is wearing the hats of Marketing, Operations, Manufacturing, Shipping, Testing, Hardware and Software final test, Field Engineer Manager, Customer Service Manager, Product Oversight (a new category I just created), Trade Show Coordinator, Vertical Market Manager, and many others I can't even remember. I will be talking to him today and I'll see if we can address this issue. Thanks for helping to keep us focused, Michael ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: 2008.9 - Was Re: Third request: what *is* the warranty on the Freerunner?
Half an hour. 15 commands to copy and paste. How much more hand-holding does a developer need? that's only part of the story! the stuff mokomakefile gets you is already prepared to be build with bitbakecie -- which does not mean that everything builds at all (frinst vlc fails completely because it does not find libpostproc and no other package does provide it, the provided ortp.pc is useless sinbce all packages i tried to compile that needed that file failed to accept it). last not least i am not sure how up-to-date teh stuff mokomakefile checks out is -- i often get packages with numbers lower than the actual packages offered by the feeds, but that might be caused by my setup. since development means to alter existing code or creating your own you need far more -- to alter code you need at least something called a layer or so (need to dug into the issue further) because mokomakefile or bitbake or whatver stubbornly refuses to update modified files. creating your own code means you need to create your own bitbake receipt and so and so on. someone (with a rather scandinavic name) posted a link a while ago to his blog entry building ipk-packages w/o mokomakefile, which might be an easier way to develop own stuff, i did not try it (yet). ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: 2008.9 - Was Re: Third request: what *is* the warranty on the Freerunner?
Jay Vaughan, 2008-08-13 22:47:28 +0200 : Oh come on. After reading all your (and others') scary messages about that, I decided to give it a try. So I pointed my browser to http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/MokoMakefile. Half an hour later, I had a build in progress. Most of that half-hour was spent waiting for stuff to download, and part of the rest was due to my running the whole stuff in a particular isolated environment (cowbuilder chroot, for those who care) with its own characteristics (stuff runs as root, and I didn't have a home directory). great that its working for you, looking forward to future news of your .ipk URL's .. I'm more likely to provide *.deb, actually, but that's just because I'm an arrogant, smug, elitist Debian bastard (and not ashamed of it, either). Of course, the build hasn't completed yet (I have a few *.ipk already, but the webpage mentions 5 hours on a computer that's rather faster than mine), but if pasting less than 15 commands straight from a web page is too high a barrier to entry for prospective developers, I doubt they'd be able to accomplish much even if it was a single command to run. since where did i say that i couldn't follow the instructions on the wiki? You didn't, as far as I know. You did, however, complain loudly about how it's hard to keep up with them with regards to code changes and build environments. Which is what I was replying to: there's a make target to update all of that in the MokoMakefile, so it's one command to type. the issue is that there is no one stable, common, build system - or distribution channel - for developers to pop their stuff into, and with the moving targets of 'fso' vs. 'asu' vs 'om2007.2' vs 'underground' vs 'etc', its a bother. Choice in build systems isn't bad per se, as far as I know. And choice a definite bonus when it comes to distribution channels: I wouldn't want the official feeds to contain random contributed packages. I don't have a problem with people adding unofficial repositories and publishing the URLs, though. I do agree with the probably excessive multiplicity of targets, but my feeling is that this is going to settle down. OM2007.2 seems to have entered maintenance-only mode, I expect ASU/OM2008.8 to follow the same path, and I envision most of the momentum moving to FSO. As for the distribution system underneath, I'd be happy to see it migrate to Debian proper, since that would gain us the whole Debian repositories, build systems, tools and experience to build on, but maybe that's just me dreaming (although I'm quite impressed with the fact that the pkg-fso team has managed to prepare a working Debian-based image with FSO and Zhone in a few days). Half an hour. 15 commands to copy and paste. How much more hand-holding does a developer need? please, do not assume i am a fool unless you would consider like countenance. Whoa, calm down. I do not assume you are a fool. I was just pointing out a discrepancy between your loud complaints about the barrier to entry, which looked scary to me, and how it's actually rather easy to setup a development environment. its not the hand-holding or the trick makefiles. its the dire lack of a dictator to rally around and form a federation .. and as a result, actually, building apps for the phone *with* the phone is turning out to be, frankly, a lot more workable - and lightweight - than over a year of mokomakefile groupthink right about now .. One more reason that NIH-syndrome is evil. Should have gone for Debian right at the start :-) (In order not to degenerate into a DSW, here are my own contributions so far: 1. a Python script to load and save contacts to files in 2007.2, and 2. a failed attempt at another script to switch from lock-and-suspend to lock-only when a call is active. You win hands down.) Roland. -- Roland Mas Why did the elephant cross the road? Because it was the chicken's day off. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: 2008.9 - Was Re: Third request: what *is* the warranty on the Freerunner?
I'm more likely to provide *.deb, actually, but that's just because I'm an arrogant, smug, elitist Debian bastard (and not ashamed of it, either). yeah! that's the spirit! you don't have by chance a blog or so where you jot down your experiences with debian on fr? i think, i am going to try it this weekend. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: 2008.9 - Was Re: Third request: what *is* the warranty on the Freerunner?
arne anka, 2008-08-14 14:24:58 +0200 : I'm more likely to provide *.deb, actually, but that's just because I'm an arrogant, smug, elitist Debian bastard (and not ashamed of it, either). yeah! that's the spirit! you don't have by chance a blog or so where you jot down your experiences with debian on fr? i think, i am going to try it this weekend. I have a blog, but I haven't started mentioning the FR on it yet. Nor have I started running Debian on the FR. OM2007.2 works for me, and I'm loathe to switch to something else until it stabilises a bit. Probably some time around FSO milestone 3. In the meantime, there is http://wiki.debian.org/pkg-fso. Roland. -- Roland Mas How does an octopus go into battle? Fully-armed. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: 2008.9 - Was Re: Third request: what *is* the warranty on the Freerunner?
On Aug 13, 2008, at 7:51 AM, Olivier Berger wrote: steve [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Then try 2008.9 when it comes Please issue it when it's READY and not on 2008.9.9 at 09:09:09 just for the fun of it. Idea of Open Source projects is to release them before they're ready, to let community work on them as well. BR, Pawel ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: 2008.9 - Was Re: Third request: what *is* the warranty on theFreerunner?
Le mer 13/08/08 07:51, Olivier Berger [EMAIL PROTECTED] a écrit: Please issue it when it's READY and not on 2008.9.9 at 09:09:09 just for the fun of it. It depends on expectations, all respectable; some people are also interested in providing feedback for alpha releases. And it is good : I feared at a moment that the OM community could just be exclusively a community of consumers. So why not a next _alpha_ release on 2008.09.10 at 11:12:13 :-) Gilles ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: 2008.9 - Was Re: Third request: what *is* the warranty on theFreerunner?
+1415 :) 2008/8/13 Gilles Casse [EMAIL PROTECTED] Le mer 13/08/08 07:51, Olivier Berger [EMAIL PROTECTED] a écrit: Please issue it when it's READY and not on 2008.9.9 at 09:09:09 just for the fun of it. It depends on expectations, all respectable; some people are also interested in providing feedback for alpha releases. And it is good : I feared at a moment that the OM community could just be exclusively a community of consumers. So why not a next _alpha_ release on 2008.09.10 at 11:12:13 :-) Gilles ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: 2008.9 - Was Re: Third request: what *is* the warranty on theFreerunner?
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 It will be very very nice _alpha_ release :) Gilles Casse wrote: So why not a next _alpha_ release on 2008.09.10 at 11:12:13 :-) Gilles -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFIostbSIAU/I6SkT0RAi7MAKCPRr/gUkYn0Z7OLkZv76DTXLBskwCdENqx LjRd5glEF76yhYPSD7xaLBs= =/ouf -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: 2008.9 - Was Re: Third request: what *is* the warranty on the Freerunner?
Please issue it when it's READY and not on 2008.9.9 at 09:09:09 just for the fun of it. Idea of Open Source projects is to release them before they're ready, to let community work on them as well. That would be fine in our case, *if* we could work on them concurrently, but there is so much cruft in dealing with the build environment - and too many forks in the details - that it makes it very unproductive to try to contribute. If we could get a list of people who are the *main* developers responsible for the contributions in the image, and if those people would then tell us other developers, reliably, how to catch up and keep up with them with regards to code changes and build environments, and if there were a few reliably sync'ed images produced that we 3rd party developers could verify our own local results against, this situation will change. ; -- Jay Vaughan ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: 2008.9 - Was Re: Third request: what *is* the warranty on the Freerunner?
Jay Vaughan, 2008-08-13 14:42:23 +0200 : Idea of Open Source projects is to release them before they're ready, to let community work on them as well. That would be fine in our case, *if* we could work on them concurrently, but there is so much cruft in dealing with the build environment - and too many forks in the details - that it makes it very unproductive to try to contribute. Oh come on. After reading all your (and others') scary messages about that, I decided to give it a try. So I pointed my browser to http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/MokoMakefile. Half an hour later, I had a build in progress. Most of that half-hour was spent waiting for stuff to download, and part of the rest was due to my running the whole stuff in a particular isolated environment (cowbuilder chroot, for those who care) with its own characteristics (stuff runs as root, and I didn't have a home directory). Of course, the build hasn't completed yet (I have a few *.ipk already, but the webpage mentions 5 hours on a computer that's rather faster than mine), but if pasting less than 15 commands straight from a web page is too high a barrier to entry for prospective developers, I doubt they'd be able to accomplish much even if it was a single command to run. Half an hour. 15 commands to copy and paste. How much more hand-holding does a developer need? Roland. -- Roland Mas A man walks into a bar. Bang. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: 2008.9 - Was Re: Third request: what *is* the warranty on the Freerunner?
The MokoMakefile is great. I've had it working for months. But I still don't know how I would contribute to OM. There's a wiki page about using the MokoMakefile to edit the existing packages. But I don't think that addresses actually contributing said changes back to OM. Maybe I'm just missing something. Now I have used the toolchain to make my own little app. But I don't think that's what Jay meant by contributing. -Steven On Wed, Aug 13, 2008 at 2:32 PM, Roland Mas [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Jay Vaughan, 2008-08-13 14:42:23 +0200 : Idea of Open Source projects is to release them before they're ready, to let community work on them as well. That would be fine in our case, *if* we could work on them concurrently, but there is so much cruft in dealing with the build environment - and too many forks in the details - that it makes it very unproductive to try to contribute. Oh come on. After reading all your (and others') scary messages about that, I decided to give it a try. So I pointed my browser to http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/MokoMakefile. Half an hour later, I had a build in progress. Most of that half-hour was spent waiting for stuff to download, and part of the rest was due to my running the whole stuff in a particular isolated environment (cowbuilder chroot, for those who care) with its own characteristics (stuff runs as root, and I didn't have a home directory). Of course, the build hasn't completed yet (I have a few *.ipk already, but the webpage mentions 5 hours on a computer that's rather faster than mine), but if pasting less than 15 commands straight from a web page is too high a barrier to entry for prospective developers, I doubt they'd be able to accomplish much even if it was a single command to run. Half an hour. 15 commands to copy and paste. How much more hand-holding does a developer need? Roland. -- Roland Mas ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: 2008.9 - Was Re: Third request: what *is* the warranty on the Freerunner?
Oh come on. After reading all your (and others') scary messages about that, I decided to give it a try. So I pointed my browser to http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/MokoMakefile. Half an hour later, I had a build in progress. Most of that half-hour was spent waiting for stuff to download, and part of the rest was due to my running the whole stuff in a particular isolated environment (cowbuilder chroot, for those who care) with its own characteristics (stuff runs as root, and I didn't have a home directory). great that its working for you, looking forward to future news of your .ipk URL's .. Of course, the build hasn't completed yet (I have a few *.ipk already, but the webpage mentions 5 hours on a computer that's rather faster than mine), but if pasting less than 15 commands straight from a web page is too high a barrier to entry for prospective developers, I doubt they'd be able to accomplish much even if it was a single command to run. since where did i say that i couldn't follow the instructions on the wiki? the issue is that there is no one stable, common, build system - or distribution channel - for developers to pop their stuff into, and with the moving targets of 'fso' vs. 'asu' vs 'om2007.2' vs 'underground' vs 'etc', its a bother. much more fun, right now, to hack code *on* the machine itself, put up with slow (actually not bad considering how much code gets written in between compiles) build times, but have a development environment that sits on a 512m SD card rather than .. 12 gigs, not counting the VM backups i've been doing over 12 months of tracking mokomakefile .. Half an hour. 15 commands to copy and paste. How much more hand-holding does a developer need? please, do not assume i am a fool unless you would consider like countenance. its not the hand-holding or the trick makefiles. its the dire lack of a dictator to rally around and form a federation .. and as a result, actually, building apps for the phone *with* the phone is turning out to be, frankly, a lot more workable - and lightweight - than over a year of mokomakefile groupthink right about now .. ; -- Jay Vaughan ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: 2008.9 - Was Re: Third request: what *is* the warranty on the Freerunner?
Does Mokomakefile can build a 2008.8 more recent than the one release on August 08 of 2008 ? I setup the Makefile for OM_GIT_BRANCH := org.openmoko.asu.testing and run make openmoko-qtopia-x11-image Will I have the fake asu, like the one on the daily buildhost ? or will I have a 2008.8/ASU ? if not, how can I build myself a more recent 2008.8/ASU Regards Philippe On Wed, Aug 13, 2008 at 4:47 PM, Jay Vaughan [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Oh come on. After reading all your (and others') scary messages about that, I decided to give it a try. So I pointed my browser to http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/MokoMakefile. Half an hour later, I had a build in progress. Most of that half-hour was spent waiting for stuff to download, and part of the rest was due to my running the whole stuff in a particular isolated environment (cowbuilder chroot, for those who care) with its own characteristics (stuff runs as root, and I didn't have a home directory). great that its working for you, looking forward to future news of your .ipk URL's .. Of course, the build hasn't completed yet (I have a few *.ipk already, but the webpage mentions 5 hours on a computer that's rather faster than mine), but if pasting less than 15 commands straight from a web page is too high a barrier to entry for prospective developers, I doubt they'd be able to accomplish much even if it was a single command to run. since where did i say that i couldn't follow the instructions on the wiki? the issue is that there is no one stable, common, build system - or distribution channel - for developers to pop their stuff into, and with the moving targets of 'fso' vs. 'asu' vs 'om2007.2' vs 'underground' vs 'etc', its a bother. much more fun, right now, to hack code *on* the machine itself, put up with slow (actually not bad considering how much code gets written in between compiles) build times, but have a development environment that sits on a 512m SD card rather than .. 12 gigs, not counting the VM backups i've been doing over 12 months of tracking mokomakefile .. Half an hour. 15 commands to copy and paste. How much more hand-holding does a developer need? please, do not assume i am a fool unless you would consider like countenance. its not the hand-holding or the trick makefiles. its the dire lack of a dictator to rally around and form a federation .. and as a result, actually, building apps for the phone *with* the phone is turning out to be, frankly, a lot more workable - and lightweight - than over a year of mokomakefile groupthink right about now .. ; -- Jay Vaughan ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: 2008.9 - Was Re: Third request: what *is* the warranty on the Freerunner?
Feydreva wrote: Does Mokomakefile can build a 2008.8 more recent than the one release on August 08 of 2008 ? I setup the Makefile for OM_GIT_BRANCH := org.openmoko.asu.testing and run make openmoko-qtopia-x11-image Will I have the fake asu, like the one on the daily buildhost ? or will I have a 2008.8/ASU ? That should build the correct image from the correct branch to get you ASU updates. The only other variable is whether the Openmoko staff who built the ASU image used moko-autorev.inc or not. I truely hope they did not and instead relied on the pinned sane-srcrevs.inc file. I would really like to see a precise definition of how Openmoko staff build the images for release ... -- Rod ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
RE: Third request: what *is* the warranty on the Freerunner?
Ya just download qtopia for now. Then try 2008.9 when it comes -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Jay Vaughan Sent: Monday, August 04, 2008 2:35 PM To: List for Openmoko community discussion Subject: Re: Third request: what *is* the warranty on the Freerunner? Anyway, I'm done complaining. Anyone want to buy a new Freemoko? I'll sell it for $350 with free shipping to anywhere in the US :) my advice is: don't be too quick to get off the train, which is well and truly under way, whatever the load .. having a working freerunner that kicks ass in 2 weeks time, or having it now: its up to the community. which isn't going to stop, just because people are not using the hardware yet .. ; -- Jay Vaughan ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
2008.9 - Was Re: Third request: what *is* the warranty on the Freerunner?
steve [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Then try 2008.9 when it comes First time I happen to meet an announcement for the next release, it seems. Please issue it when it's READY and not on 2008.9.9 at 09:09:09 just for the fun of it. Jut my 2 cents. -- Olivier BERGER (OpenPGP: 1024D/B4C5F37F) http://www.olivierberger.com/weblog/ ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
R: Third request: what *is* the warranty on the Freerunner?
According to Italian/European Union law: 1) the customer can return the package within 14 days from the receipt of the good bought on-line. No matter if it's perfectly working or if it is DOA. This is not yet a warranty, it applies to goods that were bought by corrispondence or on-line where the customer cannot check the good on the spot. Actually, I don't know to which extent this applies to goods bought on-line outside from Italy, this likely depends on bi-lateral agreements between countries. 2) if, within 6 months from the purchase, the good shows malfunctions, it is automatically presumed that the good was already defective. The reseller must reimburse, repair or substitute the good. Note that this responsibility is on the *reseller*, not on the producer, in case they are different. 3) if, within 2 years from the purchase, the good shows malfunctions, then it is up to the customer to prove that the good was already defective and that the malfunction isn't the result of wearing or improper usage. Again, if the good is actually defective, the reseller must reimburse, repair or substitute the good. After 2 years have passed the legal warranty expires. The producer/reseller can optionally offer a longer or enhanced commercial warranty (3 years or more, 24hrs substitution, etc), but this does not replace the minimum legal warranty. EU directives talk about conformity. A defect is found whenever the device fails to conform: - to existing norms and laws that are applicable to the device (900MHz EM radiation from antenna must not be greater than X...). Failing to comply to norms/legislation may even result in the product being retired from the market. - to what has been declared by the producer (SD and GPS work well together, It can make phone calls, It can receive SMS...) See also: http://www.cedarrapids.org/_includes/fileblob.asp?I=16table=contentext=pdf Michele -Messaggio originale- Da: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Per conto di steve Inviato: lunedì 4 agosto 2008 23.50 A: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; 'List for Openmoko community discussion' Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; 'Michael Shiloh' Oggetto: RE: Third request: what *is* the warranty on the Freerunner? The warrenty on our web shop is 14 days for DOA. GSM problems could be related to the age of your SIM. So we suggest updated any old SIMS. Micheal can help. Steve -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Jim Morris Sent: Monday, August 04, 2008 1:43 PM To: List for Openmoko community discussion Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Michael Shiloh Subject: Re: Third request: what *is* the warranty on the Freerunner? ian douglas wrote: Guys, My intention was not to create a message thread for people to vent about what they like or not about the Freerunner. I created the thread to get an official stance from Openmoko about the state of the warranty, and if it would cover any hardware fix offered by OM for the GPS/SD problems. And a good thread it was too :) I am also very curious about the potential GSM fixes. Will these be done by sending it back, or will it be something us hackers can do (and soldering sub-micron capacitors to invisible traces I do not consider your average hacker can do, and I have been playing with a soldering iron for 35 years, and I would not attempt it :) The GSM problems particularly worry me, because it does make the phone useless as a phone and I need to know if I need to go buy another phone as a primary phone or not. Whereas problems with GPS SDCARDS are not show stoppers for me. If it worked fine with a BT headset I could also use it happily. (Of course if we discover a fatal H/W flaw that prevents even BT headsets from working that is also a show stopper for me) So please OM head honchos, get together and please give us a definitive statement as to what the after sales support will be for any serious Hardware issues discovered after shipping. Thanks Jim -- Jim Morris, http://blog.wolfman.com ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: R: Third request: what *is* the warranty on the Freerunner?
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Hi Michele this law is valid in Italy / EU union. For this reason if you buy your FR from a reseller, as for example Pulster, you receive 2 years warranty. But if you buy from U.S. like from the OM shop, you must to follow US laws about warranty. Best regards Michele Renda Michele Manzato wrote: According to Italian/European Union law: 1) the customer can return the package within 14 days from the receipt of the good bought on-line. No matter if it's perfectly working or if it is DOA. This is not yet a warranty, it applies to goods that were bought by corrispondence or on-line where the customer cannot check the good on the spot. Actually, I don't know to which extent this applies to goods bought on-line outside from Italy, this likely depends on bi-lateral agreements between countries. 2) if, within 6 months from the purchase, the good shows malfunctions, it is automatically presumed that the good was already defective. The reseller must reimburse, repair or substitute the good. Note that this responsibility is on the *reseller*, not on the producer, in case they are different. 3) if, within 2 years from the purchase, the good shows malfunctions, then it is up to the customer to prove that the good was already defective and that the malfunction isn't the result of wearing or improper usage. Again, if the good is actually defective, the reseller must reimburse, repair or substitute the good. After 2 years have passed the legal warranty expires. The producer/reseller can optionally offer a longer or enhanced commercial warranty (3 years or more, 24hrs substitution, etc), but this does not replace the minimum legal warranty. EU directives talk about conformity. A defect is found whenever the device fails to conform: - to existing norms and laws that are applicable to the device (900MHz EM radiation from antenna must not be greater than X...). Failing to comply to norms/legislation may even result in the product being retired from the market. - to what has been declared by the producer (SD and GPS work well together, It can make phone calls, It can receive SMS...) See also: http://www.cedarrapids.org/_includes/fileblob.asp?I=16table=contentext=pdf Michele -Messaggio originale- Da: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Per conto di steve Inviato: lunedì 4 agosto 2008 23.50 A: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; 'List for Openmoko community discussion' Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; 'Michael Shiloh' Oggetto: RE: Third request: what *is* the warranty on the Freerunner? The warrenty on our web shop is 14 days for DOA. GSM problems could be related to the age of your SIM. So we suggest updated any old SIMS. Micheal can help. Steve -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Jim Morris Sent: Monday, August 04, 2008 1:43 PM To: List for Openmoko community discussion Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Michael Shiloh Subject: Re: Third request: what *is* the warranty on the Freerunner? ian douglas wrote: Guys, My intention was not to create a message thread for people to vent about what they like or not about the Freerunner. I created the thread to get an official stance from Openmoko about the state of the warranty, and if it would cover any hardware fix offered by OM for the GPS/SD problems. And a good thread it was too :) I am also very curious about the potential GSM fixes. Will these be done by sending it back, or will it be something us hackers can do (and soldering sub-micron capacitors to invisible traces I do not consider your average hacker can do, and I have been playing with a soldering iron for 35 years, and I would not attempt it :) The GSM problems particularly worry me, because it does make the phone useless as a phone and I need to know if I need to go buy another phone as a primary phone or not. Whereas problems with GPS SDCARDS are not show stoppers for me. If it worked fine with a BT headset I could also use it happily. (Of course if we discover a fatal H/W flaw that prevents even BT headsets from working that is also a show stopper for me) So please OM head honchos, get together and please give us a definitive statement as to what the after sales support will be for any serious Hardware issues discovered after shipping. Thanks Jim -- Jim Morris, http://blog.wolfman.com ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community -BEGIN
Re: Third request: what *is* the warranty on the Freerunner?
Hi Dimitri: Some of information is not correct. The warranty is essentially non-existent. Yes, we don't have unified warranty policy yet, but this does not mean we don't take the responsibility for user get bad devices. We still working on this, once we have consensus, we will announce. The problem also not warranty itself, but also who will take care later warranty issue processing (fixing/logistic). It's supposedly 14 days D.O.A.. Dead On Arrival, in its strictest definition, means that as long as the phone boots up, that's it. It doesn't matter if it's not really functional. As long as it boots up, it's technically not DOA. If it can't make phone calls or connect to the internet, too bad: it's not DOA. If the GPS antenna doesn't work right, because of a hardware flaw, too bad: it's not DOA. We have support list for trouble shooting, For EU user get phone from distributor, you could contact them if your phone not working. For web shop order, please contact mail on the web shop, we will take the case and process it. But also please check support list and wiki quick start page for existing answer. We _didn't_ reject any customer for return with reasonable reasons so far. If device is really non-functional, we take case by case troubling shooting and review it. We don't want to be irresponsible for FR user, that's only policy here for sure. While I'm glad they're trying to put out a phone that's open, I'm very disappointed in their lack of customer support. I mean, it's not some throw-away piece of crap. It's a $400 phone! Yes, we do not satisfy ourself with this kind of service level either, we are trying improve, but this is global shipment, and we only have a few people now. I feel mislead by their marketing, which led me (and, from what I've been reading, many others) to think that the phone was actually ready for both developers AND regular folks. This, of course, is false, as it can't even connect to the internet *out of the box*, and requires a ridiculous degree of programming knowledge to even do so. (As a Java programmer with 10 years' experience, I've finally given up trying.) If you ask for return, we still take this request and review it. Please mail me your contact information, order number, and issue description. Tony Tu (Neng-Yu Tu) Openmoko, Inc. Support. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Third request: what *is* the warranty on the Freerunner?
Hi Lally Singh: The warranty is also bugging me. Is there anywhere else I could get one? Or would OM be willing to sell an extended warranty for a bit more $$? Our sales and marketing both are in US working on this now, no extended warranty yet. Or at least a cheap spare parts program? I don't mind swapping out parts if they're available at reasonable prices. We might have spare part or re-work package, but still under discussion. What spare part you need? Tony Tu (Neng-Yu Tu) Openmoko, Inc. Support. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Third request: what *is* the warranty on the Freerunner?
Ah, but once you hit send you lost ownership of your thread. You can no more reclaim your thread than you can stuff feathers back into a torn pillow in a high wind true, oh pharao. but otoh it isn't the first attempt to clarify the issue and virtually every other attempt very fast went in any other direction but a satisfying answer -- since the issue is still of interest for a lot of people it's not unrealistic at all that hope that this time it would stay in-topic. in vain, as it turns out ... ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Warranty after fix for GTA02 GPS rework for SD card interference issue
Andy Green wrote: About the 600sec thing, you can get the GPS chip to report 4 times a second instead of once a second, maybe that can be to do with it. But it is strange, noticing the heavy filtering on our results I wonder if a lot of those samples coming so quickly were actually synthetic. It would seem that they are synthetic and have to do with how GPSD parses and interprets NMEA sentences. The other two reference receivers are put in SiRF mode and don't seem to suffer this effect. Has anyone figured out how to kick the GPS receiver into UBX mode? I would be curious to see if that changes anything. For the last result, it seems to show only 2 / 2500 results from GPS are within 20 Million meters of the location. It's hard to square that with the other decent results that have been reported for tracking, including ones pulling maps from SD Card, although I guess you are spamming the card as hard as you can for this test. It seems that gpsprof gets a value of 10,000,000,000 for NaN and doesn't check if lat/long values are in range before calculating the average. It doesn't take very many 10 Billion values to really screw up the average :-) I modified gpsprof to toss out invalid lat/long values. What actually happened when gpsd died? With that and the extreme nature of the last result I wonder if something else goes on. One last thing, the voltage scaling and clock rate reduction patches aren't in the kernel you used, they should be around in tomorrow's packages: if you have 600 sec to spare it would be interesting to see if they made any change :-) Additional test results (from 20080802) are up at http://www.millions.ca/~stacy/neoFreeRunner/gpstale.html I did some more testing yesterday after compiling the latest version of GPSD for the FreeRunner (it no longer dies when I spam the SDCard... that's progress :-) but have not yet got the results pulled together. -stacy ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Warranty after fix for GTA02 GPS rework for SD card interference issue
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Somebody in the thread at some point said: Thanks for your work Stacy. | About the 600sec thing, you can get the GPS chip to report 4 times a | second instead of once a second, maybe that can be to do with it. But | it is strange, noticing the heavy filtering on our results I wonder if a | lot of those samples coming so quickly were actually synthetic. | | It would seem that they are synthetic and have to do with how GPSD | parses and interprets NMEA sentences. The other two reference receivers | are put in SiRF mode and don't seem to suffer this effect. Has anyone | figured out how to kick the GPS receiver into UBX mode? I would be | curious to see if that changes anything. It's actually documented by Ublox in here (Okular eats it) http://www.u-blox.com/customersupport/gps.g3/ANTARIS_Protocol_Specification(GPS.G3-X-03002).chm Here's a UBX packet generator in Bash http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/openmoko-kernel/2008-July/003782.html and here is how to inject the packets from Ash echo 0 /sys/class/i2c-adapter/i2c-0/0-0073/neo1973-pm-gps.0/pwron sleep 1s echo 1 /sys/class/i2c-adapter/i2c-0/0-0073/neo1973-pm-gps.0/pwron stty -F /dev/ttySAC1 -echo cat MY-UBX-PACKET /dev/ttySAC1 cat -u /dev/ttySAC1 | grep -v ^$ | For the last result, it seems to show only 2 / 2500 results from GPS are | within 20 Million meters of the location. It's hard to square that with | the other decent results that have been reported for tracking, including | ones pulling maps from SD Card, although I guess you are spamming the | card as hard as you can for this test. | | It seems that gpsprof gets a value of 10,000,000,000 for NaN and doesn't | check if lat/long values are in range before calculating the average. It | doesn't take very many 10 Billion values to really screw up the average | :-) I modified gpsprof to toss out invalid lat/long values. OK makes a lot of sense :-) | Additional test results (from 20080802) are up at | http://www.millions.ca/~stacy/neoFreeRunner/gpstale.html | | I did some more testing yesterday after compiling the latest version of | GPSD for the FreeRunner (it no longer dies when I spam the SDCard... | that's progress :-) but have not yet got the results pulled together. Doesn't look a million miles away from being right... there are two outliers shown and I guess the filtered NaN(s), but basically all the other samples are in a decent place. - -Andy -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Fedora - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iEYEARECAAYFAkiYdOsACgkQOjLpvpq7dMrLkACgjAm1Img8f2Loku2+o84kHx/y jjYAnjAtxtRk5l3iu2H2F7HyBvT8NW1F =Z++i -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Third request: what *is* the warranty on the Freerunner?
On Tue, Aug 5, 2008 at 2:29 AM, Neng-Yu Tu (Tony Tu) [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Lally Singh: The warranty is also bugging me. Is there anywhere else I could get one? Or would OM be willing to sell an extended warranty for a bit more $$? Our sales and marketing both are in US working on this now, no extended warranty yet. If one's coming, and I don't get a dead FR before that, that's good :-) Please, I'd like to emphasize again, that it's a *real* issue for me. I can hack the software stack day and night (and I'd like to do some work to make it easier for others to do the same), but dead HW is no good. Or at least a cheap spare parts program? I don't mind swapping out parts if they're available at reasonable prices. We might have spare part or re-work package, but still under discussion. What spare part you need? My 10-pack order group just got the 10th member, so I haven't even put an order in yet. I'd just like the parts to be available so I don't have to shell out another $400 if something screws up. Even if they're the working parts cannibalized from dead RMA'd FRs, I'm fine with that. Especially if it made the parts cheaper. -- H. Lally Singh Ph.D. Candidate, Computer Science Virginia Tech ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Third request: what *is* the warranty on the Freerunner?
Neng-Yu Tu (Tony Tu) wrote: Yes, we don't have unified warranty policy yet, but this does not mean we don't take the responsibility for user get bad devices. Define bad... It's a little vague -- does 'bad' simply mean DOA like was announced by Steve several months ago regarding the 14-day/28-day DOA warranty, or does 'bad' mean phones that turn on but don't have functioning hardware ? Thanks for working with the rest of the team to come to some consensus on what the warranty is all about. -id ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Warranty after fix for GTA02 GPS rework for SD card interference issue
Andy Green wrote: | Has anyone | figured out how to kick the GPS receiver into UBX mode? I would be | curious to see if that changes anything. It's actually documented by Ublox in here (Okular eats it) http://www.u-blox.com/customersupport/gps.g3/ANTARIS_Protocol_Specification(GPS.G3-X-03002).chm I've been reading that, but have not had any success in getting any UBX output... I have managed to disable NMEA (both using $PUBX NMEA extensions and your UBX generator) but then I get no data on the tty. | Additional test results (from 20080802) are up at | http://www.millions.ca/~stacy/neoFreeRunner/gpstale.html Doesn't look a million miles away from being right... there are two outliers shown and I guess the filtered NaN(s), but basically all the other samples are in a decent place. Atleast one of the outliers had multiple samples, but I am suspicious of those being synthetic as well. From the bit of testing I have done so far, it would seem that heavy use of the SDCard can cause the CEP to increase by 25%-50% but it is still typically better than the reference receivers. I had hoped to do my next round of testing in UBX mode (if that solves the issue with samples coming faster than once a second). If I can't get that figured out soon, I will just configure the GPS to only emit GGA sentences, then I will only get one fix per second from gpsd. -stacy ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Third request: what *is* the warranty on the Freerunner?
Sean/Michael/Community: It's been asked several times, especially regarding the GPS/SD fixes and people ordering pico-farad capacitors and soldering irons ... I'm hoping that at some point the squeaky wheel cliche will work itself out and we'll get an answer. The boxes the Freerunners came in gave no information about warranty, we need to hear from Openmoko about what exactly the warranty does cover? My understanding of the warranty time limit is that single purchases got a 14-day warranty, and group purchases were given a 28-day warranty, but we've never been told what the warranty includes. I'd really like to outline some of this on the wiki since we're cleaning it all up, etc., and since few users will ever search the mailing list archives anyway. Will it include any recall/repairs needed to fix the GPS/SD problems at a hardware level? Thanks, Ian ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Third request: what *is* the warranty on the Freerunner?
ian douglas wrote: Sean/Michael/Community: It's been asked several times, especially regarding the GPS/SD fixes and people ordering pico-farad capacitors and soldering irons ... I'm hoping that at some point the squeaky wheel cliche will work itself out and we'll get an answer. The boxes the Freerunners came in gave no information about warranty, we need to hear from Openmoko about what exactly the warranty does cover? My understanding of the warranty time limit is that single purchases got a 14-day warranty, and group purchases were given a 28-day warranty, but we've never been told what the warranty includes. I'd really like to outline some of this on the wiki since we're cleaning it all up, etc., and since few users will ever search the mailing list archives anyway. Will it include any recall/repairs needed to fix the GPS/SD problems at a hardware level? Thanks, Ian Ian, I agree with you, and I'm sure Steve and Sean (and everyone at Openmoko) do as well. I'm sure that the only reason that Steve has not responded (for he is the one to respond to this) is that he is completely overwhelmed by email, manufacturing and shipping, and releasing stuff this week. He is wearing the hats of Marketing, Operations, Manufacturing, Shipping, Testing, Hardware and Software final test, Field Engineer Manager, Customer Service Manager, Product Oversight (a new category I just created), Trade Show Coordinator, Vertical Market Manager, and many others I can't even remember. I will be talking to him today and I'll see if we can address this issue. Thanks for helping to keep us focused, Michael ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Third request: what *is* the warranty on the Freerunner?
The warranty is essentially non-existent. It's supposedly 14 days D.O.A.. Dead On Arrival, in its strictest definition, means that as long as the phone boots up, that's it. It doesn't matter if it's not really functional. As long as it boots up, it's technically not DOA. If it can't make phone calls or connect to the internet, too bad: it's not DOA. If the GPS antenna doesn't work right, because of a hardware flaw, too bad: it's not DOA. While I'm glad they're trying to put out a phone that's open, I'm very disappointed in their lack of customer support. I mean, it's not some throw-away piece of crap. It's a $400 phone! I feel mislead by their marketing, which led me (and, from what I've been reading, many others) to think that the phone was actually ready for both developers AND regular folks. This, of course, is false, as it can't even connect to the internet *out of the box*, and requires a ridiculous degree of programming knowledge to even do so. (As a Java programmer with 10 years' experience, I've finally given up trying.) Anyway, I'm done complaining. Anyone want to buy a new Freemoko? I'll sell it for $350 with free shipping to anywhere in the US :) Dimitri ian douglas-2 wrote: Sean/Michael/Community: It's been asked several times, especially regarding the GPS/SD fixes and people ordering pico-farad capacitors and soldering irons ... I'm hoping that at some point the squeaky wheel cliche will work itself out and we'll get an answer. The boxes the Freerunners came in gave no information about warranty, we need to hear from Openmoko about what exactly the warranty does cover? My understanding of the warranty time limit is that single purchases got a 14-day warranty, and group purchases were given a 28-day warranty, but we've never been told what the warranty includes. I'd really like to outline some of this on the wiki since we're cleaning it all up, etc., and since few users will ever search the mailing list archives anyway. Will it include any recall/repairs needed to fix the GPS/SD problems at a hardware level? Thanks, Ian -- View this message in context: http://n2.nabble.com/Third-request%3A-what-*is*-the-warranty-on-the-Freerunner--tp668835p669058.html Sent from the Openmoko Community mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Third request: what *is* the warranty on the Freerunner?
I feel mislead by their marketing, which led me (and, from what I've been reading, many others) to think that the phone was actually ready for both developers AND regular folks. This, of course, is false, as it can't even connect to the internet *out of the box*, and requires a ridiculous degree of programming knowledge to even do so. (As a Java programmer with 10 years' experience, I've finally given up trying.) I haven't seen anyone say the phone would be ready for regular user. I tell people don't even expect to make reliable phone calls. Though I think they should have put a big warning page during the purchasing process before it takes your credit card, so no one would have an excuse to complain. Sorry that its not for you yet. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Third request: what *is* the warranty on the Freerunner?
I'm just venting steam. I'm not entirely unhappy with the phone: just a little frustrated, since I'm having a hard time justifying the purchase with my wife... not to mention my iPhone-loving friends. There were a number of sites, like Engadget and a few others, that were essentially implying that the Freerunner was ready for general use (as opposed to the Neo1973, which was strictly a developer's phone). So, I enthusiastically ordered it, only to realize that it's still, very much, a developer's phone. And not just a developer's phone, but a *super hardcore* developer's phone. I wouldn't mind learning to program for it, but even that's hard to do, since there are a handful of competing openmoko software architectures that aren't really interoperable. Anyway, I guess I'll wait for the software to catch up to the hardware. Meanwhile, I'll keep it tucked away in the closet. Dimitri Steven Kurylo wrote: I feel mislead by their marketing, which led me (and, from what I've been reading, many others) to think that the phone was actually ready for both developers AND regular folks. This, of course, is false, as it can't even connect to the internet *out of the box*, and requires a ridiculous degree of programming knowledge to even do so. (As a Java programmer with 10 years' experience, I've finally given up trying.) I haven't seen anyone say the phone would be ready for regular user. I tell people don't even expect to make reliable phone calls. Though I think they should have put a big warning page during the purchasing process before it takes your credit card, so no one would have an excuse to complain. Sorry that its not for you yet. -- View this message in context: http://n2.nabble.com/Third-request%3A-what-*is*-the-warranty-on-the-Freerunner--tp668835p669126.html Sent from the Openmoko Community mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
RE: Third request: what *is* the warranty on the Freerunner?
Dido Blake Haggerty Permanent Placement Specialist Work: 415-788-8488 x6062 Fax: 415-788-2592 Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.linkedin.com/in/blakehaggerty Sapphire Technologies See who we know in common -Original Message- From:Dimitri [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: community@lists.openmoko.org community@lists.openmoko.org; Sent: Aug 4, 2008 11:31:23 AM Subject: Re: Third request: what *is* the warranty on the Freerunner? I'm just venting steam. I'm not entirely unhappy with the phone: just a little frustrated, since I'm having a hard time justifying the purchase with my wife... not to mention my iPhone-loving friends. There were a number of sites, like Engadget and a few others, that were essentially implying that the Freerunner was ready for general use (as opposed to the Neo1973, which was strictly a developer's phone). So, I enthusiastically ordered it, only to realize that it's still, very much, a developer's phone. And not just a developer's phone, but a *super hardcore* developer's phone. I wouldn't mind learning to program for it, but even that's hard to do, since there are a handful of competing openmoko software architectures that aren't really interoperable. Anyway, I guess I'll wait for the software to catch up to the hardware. Meanwhile, I'll keep it tucked away in the closet. Dimitri Steven Kurylo wrote: I feel mislead by their marketing, which led me (and, from what I've been reading, many others) to think that the phone was actually ready for both developers AND regular folks. This, of course, is false, as it can't even connect to the internet *out of the box*, and requires a ridiculous degree of programming knowledge to even do so. (As a Java programmer with 10 years' experience, I've finally given up trying.) I haven't seen anyone say the phone would be ready for regular user. I tell people don't even expect to make reliable phone calls. Though I think they should have put a big warning page during the purchasing process before it takes your credit card, so no one would have an excuse to complain. Sorry that its not for you yet. -- View this message in context: http://n2.nabble.com/Third-request%3A-what-*is*-the-warranty-on-the-Freerunner--tp668835p669126.html Sent from the Openmoko Community mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Third request: what *is* the warranty on the Freerunner?
Guys, My intention was not to create a message thread for people to vent about what they like or not about the Freerunner. I created the thread to get an official stance from Openmoko about the state of the warranty, and if it would cover any hardware fix offered by OM for the GPS/SD problems. -id ian douglas wrote: Sean/Michael/Community: It's been asked several times, especially regarding the GPS/SD fixes and people ordering pico-farad capacitors and soldering irons ... I'm hoping that at some point the squeaky wheel cliche will work itself out and we'll get an answer. The boxes the Freerunners came in gave no information about warranty, we need to hear from Openmoko about what exactly the warranty does cover? My understanding of the warranty time limit is that single purchases got a 14-day warranty, and group purchases were given a 28-day warranty, but we've never been told what the warranty includes. I'd really like to outline some of this on the wiki since we're cleaning it all up, etc., and since few users will ever search the mailing list archives anyway. Will it include any recall/repairs needed to fix the GPS/SD problems at a hardware level? Thanks, Ian ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Third request: what *is* the warranty on the Freerunner?
Ah, but once you hit send you lost ownership of your thread. You can no more reclaim your thread than you can stuff feathers back into a torn pillow in a high wind :-) ian douglas wrote: Guys, My intention was not to create a message thread for people to vent about what they like or not about the Freerunner. I created the thread to get an official stance from Openmoko about the state of the warranty, and if it would cover any hardware fix offered by OM for the GPS/SD problems. -id ian douglas wrote: Sean/Michael/Community: It's been asked several times, especially regarding the GPS/SD fixes and people ordering pico-farad capacitors and soldering irons ... I'm hoping that at some point the squeaky wheel cliche will work itself out and we'll get an answer. The boxes the Freerunners came in gave no information about warranty, we need to hear from Openmoko about what exactly the warranty does cover? My understanding of the warranty time limit is that single purchases got a 14-day warranty, and group purchases were given a 28-day warranty, but we've never been told what the warranty includes. I'd really like to outline some of this on the wiki since we're cleaning it all up, etc., and since few users will ever search the mailing list archives anyway. Will it include any recall/repairs needed to fix the GPS/SD problems at a hardware level? Thanks, Ian ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Third request: what *is* the warranty on the Freerunner?
ian douglas wrote: Guys, My intention was not to create a message thread for people to vent about what they like or not about the Freerunner. I created the thread to get an official stance from Openmoko about the state of the warranty, and if it would cover any hardware fix offered by OM for the GPS/SD problems. And a good thread it was too :) I am also very curious about the potential GSM fixes. Will these be done by sending it back, or will it be something us hackers can do (and soldering sub-micron capacitors to invisible traces I do not consider your average hacker can do, and I have been playing with a soldering iron for 35 years, and I would not attempt it :) The GSM problems particularly worry me, because it does make the phone useless as a phone and I need to know if I need to go buy another phone as a primary phone or not. Whereas problems with GPS SDCARDS are not show stoppers for me. If it worked fine with a BT headset I could also use it happily. (Of course if we discover a fatal H/W flaw that prevents even BT headsets from working that is also a show stopper for me) So please OM head honchos, get together and please give us a definitive statement as to what the after sales support will be for any serious Hardware issues discovered after shipping. Thanks Jim -- Jim Morris, http://blog.wolfman.com ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Third request: what *is* the warranty on the Freerunner?
Anyway, I'm done complaining. Anyone want to buy a new Freemoko? I'll sell it for $350 with free shipping to anywhere in the US :) my advice is: don't be too quick to get off the train, which is well and truly under way, whatever the load .. having a working freerunner that kicks ass in 2 weeks time, or having it now: its up to the community. which isn't going to stop, just because people are not using the hardware yet .. ; -- Jay Vaughan ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
RE: Third request: what *is* the warranty on the Freerunner?
The warrenty on our web shop is 14 days for DOA. GSM problems could be related to the age of your SIM. So we suggest updated any old SIMS. Micheal can help. Steve -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Jim Morris Sent: Monday, August 04, 2008 1:43 PM To: List for Openmoko community discussion Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Michael Shiloh Subject: Re: Third request: what *is* the warranty on the Freerunner? ian douglas wrote: Guys, My intention was not to create a message thread for people to vent about what they like or not about the Freerunner. I created the thread to get an official stance from Openmoko about the state of the warranty, and if it would cover any hardware fix offered by OM for the GPS/SD problems. And a good thread it was too :) I am also very curious about the potential GSM fixes. Will these be done by sending it back, or will it be something us hackers can do (and soldering sub-micron capacitors to invisible traces I do not consider your average hacker can do, and I have been playing with a soldering iron for 35 years, and I would not attempt it :) The GSM problems particularly worry me, because it does make the phone useless as a phone and I need to know if I need to go buy another phone as a primary phone or not. Whereas problems with GPS SDCARDS are not show stoppers for me. If it worked fine with a BT headset I could also use it happily. (Of course if we discover a fatal H/W flaw that prevents even BT headsets from working that is also a show stopper for me) So please OM head honchos, get together and please give us a definitive statement as to what the after sales support will be for any serious Hardware issues discovered after shipping. Thanks Jim -- Jim Morris, http://blog.wolfman.com ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Third request: what *is* the warranty on the Freerunner?
Jim Morris wrote: ian douglas wrote: Guys, My intention was not to create a message thread for people to vent about what they like or not about the Freerunner. I created the thread to get an official stance from Openmoko about the state of the warranty, and if it would cover any hardware fix offered by OM for the GPS/SD problems. And a good thread it was too :) I am also very curious about the potential GSM fixes. Will these be done by sending it back, or will it be something us hackers can do (and soldering sub-micron capacitors to invisible traces I do not consider your average hacker can do, and I have been playing with a soldering iron for 35 years, and I would not attempt it :) The GSM problems particularly worry me, because it does make the phone useless as a phone and I need to know if I need to go buy another phone as a primary phone or not. Whereas problems with GPS SDCARDS are not show stoppers for me. Have you tried the recommended approach of a new SIM card? Who is your carrier? Have you added them to the GSM database on the wiki? Michael ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Third request: what *is* the warranty on the Freerunner?
steve wrote: The warrenty on our web shop is 14 days for DOA. GSM problems could be related to the age of your SIM. So we suggest updated any old SIMS. Micheal can help. Sorry I should have been clearer, I am referring to the loud buzzing on GSM calls, which has been determined to be noise getting into the circuitry. -- Jim Morris, http://blog.wolfman.com ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Third request: what *is* the warranty on the Freerunner?
Jim Morris wrote: steve wrote: The warrenty on our web shop is 14 days for DOA. GSM problems could be related to the age of your SIM. So we suggest updated any old SIMS. Micheal can help. Sorry I should have been clearer, I am referring to the loud buzzing on GSM calls, which has been determined to be noise getting into the circuitry. Ah. Quite right. Big difference. M ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Third request: what *is* the warranty on the Freerunner?
The warranty is also bugging me. Is there anywhere else I could get one? Or would OM be willing to sell an extended warranty for a bit more $$? Or at least a cheap spare parts program? I don't mind swapping out parts if they're available at reasonable prices. On Mon, Aug 4, 2008 at 6:36 PM, Michael Shiloh [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Jim Morris wrote: ian douglas wrote: Guys, My intention was not to create a message thread for people to vent about what they like or not about the Freerunner. I created the thread to get an official stance from Openmoko about the state of the warranty, and if it would cover any hardware fix offered by OM for the GPS/SD problems. And a good thread it was too :) I am also very curious about the potential GSM fixes. Will these be done by sending it back, or will it be something us hackers can do (and soldering sub-micron capacitors to invisible traces I do not consider your average hacker can do, and I have been playing with a soldering iron for 35 years, and I would not attempt it :) The GSM problems particularly worry me, because it does make the phone useless as a phone and I need to know if I need to go buy another phone as a primary phone or not. Whereas problems with GPS SDCARDS are not show stoppers for me. Have you tried the recommended approach of a new SIM card? Who is your carrier? Have you added them to the GSM database on the wiki? Michael ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community -- H. Lally Singh Ph.D. Candidate, Computer Science Virginia Tech ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Third request: what *is* the warranty on the Freerunner?
There were a number of sites, like Engadget and a few others, that were essentially implying that the Freerunner was ready for general use (as opposed to the Neo1973, which was strictly a developer's phone). well, if you use qtopia, with an eye on the rapid progress, you can at least adopt a holding pattern as good things come along. what i think has happened is, frankly, a bit of a wild hacker mutiny. realizing that, once the hardware is actually out there in good numbers, the distribution wars are *on8*, be-atches, the openmoko 'community' went ballistic, and .. yes kids .. its true, there are more than one operating systems to run on your freerunner, and frankly thats not going to change or 'devolve', its clear. so tell your iPhone homies :P to them having 'the one mans operating system', while you have .. so far .. at least 5 or 6 to choose from. and, thus: the race is on. who will make the freerunner a trully rockin' device? *all* the bits are there, and frankly, with such a big feast, its sure we'll not run out of forks. So, I enthusiastically ordered it, only to realize that it's still, very much, a developer's phone. And not just a developer's phone, but a *super hardcore* developer's phone. well, i have to admit that i think its high time the back-room 'disk image swapping around of' crowd got their thumbs out of their asses and started sharing bootable goods, pre-configured and ready to roll, but thats just me bein' all 'cyber' about it, alas .. I wouldn't mind learning to program for it, but even that's hard to do, since there are a handful of competing openmoko software architectures that aren't really interoperable. consider this: there is *nothing* stopping you from spending an hour or two for a week, configuring and building your -own- distro, from all the parts, slapping a lable on it and installing it on the other 9 phones you've got in your box. the only question then, of course, would be: who you gonna call? Anyway, I guess I'll wait for the software to catch up to the hardware. Meanwhile, I'll keep it tucked away in the closet. i've got mine in my kit, its a very useful linux box to me already, only a 9 or so days into the trip, and i must admit its fun to have when i need it .. i've got mine set up for the local public funkfeuer nodes, just fine, and that means i've got at least a feed or two in the park to read, and GPS maps (weather too) as well .. so thats nice. it is actually *quite* a useful system if you pump some time into it. ; -- Jay Vaughan ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
RE: Warranty after fix for GTA02 GPS rework for SDcard interferenceissue
I talked with Tony this morning he said he uploaded it -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Andy Green Sent: Thursday, July 31, 2008 7:34 AM To: List for Openmoko community discussion Cc: Neng-Yu Tu (Tony Tu) Subject: Re: Warranty after fix for GTA02 GPS rework for SDcard interferenceissue -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Somebody in the thread at some point said: | Do folks know wher to find the SOP for the cap fix? | | Tony, if you havent already, go ahead and post the SOP for the cap fix. It's | easy enough to do | And undo. Did you ever do it, steve? - -Andy -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Fedora - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iEYEARECAAYFAkiRzVQACgkQOjLpvpq7dMpGLwCeO+mNJpn0Fk/bMnaoSN3n6o5a 1bEAniOPccvfrk8WZ+/lIUjVlxUE5pZd =xFkQ -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
RE: Warranty after fix for GTA02 GPS rework forSD card interferenceissue
A proper Kalman Filter, I would think, would have such limits since it should have a model of vehicle dynamics. Andy do you have any idea of the duration of SD IO? -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Andy Green Sent: Thursday, July 31, 2008 7:44 AM To: List for Openmoko community discussion Subject: Re: Warranty after fix for GTA02 GPS rework forSD card interferenceissue -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Somebody in the thread at some point said: | steve schrieb: | Amaybe when SD I/O occurs one could use the accelerometers to dead reckon? | | Dead reckoning without gyros is pretty hard. In theory, the two | accelerometers are not mounted in the same place and thus could be | used to derive rotation, but in practice they're pretty close to each | other, and given the noise of measurement one is unlikely to derive a | good rotation from them. I don't think we need to worry about it, but in fact we wouldn't need to dead-reckon. All we would need it for would be to put a ceiling on claims from noisy GPS about what accelerations we could have experienced. If the GPS sample says we jumped 100m in 1s, but the accels didn't really see anything, we could ignore or meddle with the GPS sample. Whether that is any better than just filtering between previous and later samples I doubt. - -Andy -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Fedora - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iEYEARECAAYFAkiRz5EACgkQOjLpvpq7dMpNLQCfcPdC9ZdSelPGiP+D9TVapDI0 94AAnjkmnCWge5RxXewJ40gchhA1n+Ne =jCLG -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Warranty after fix for GTA02 GPS rework for SD card interference issue
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Somebody in the thread at some point said: | One last thing, the voltage scaling and clock rate reduction patches | aren't in the kernel you used, they should be around in tomorrow's | packages: if you have 600 sec to spare it would be interesting to see if | they made any change :-) | | - -Andy | | | | Hi Andy, | To get that kernel you reference would I go to | http://buildhost.openmoko.org/daily/freerunner/ | then to the latest date (like tomorrow) and look for | uImage-om-gta02-latest.bin? | | Just want to make sure I have this right. Yes the one for 31st is updated already. You might be better using opkg for it, you can find the kernel packages here http://buildhost.openmoko.org/daily-feed/om-gta02/ Something be aware of we moved Ethernet over USB into a module now, Thomas B found you will need to opkg install kernel-module-g-ether kernel-module-cdc-ether depmod before rebooting. - -Andy -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Fedora - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iEYEARECAAYFAkiSpbEACgkQOjLpvpq7dMqQBwCfSRQFgCT57QZZnv97FHJQsb1O vVsAn2D1wRSqYuO5kf765qaocZruiDVL =mAZD -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Warranty after fix for GTA02 GPS rework for SD card interferenceissue
Andy Green wrote: Somebody in the thread at some point said: | I'm using OM2007.2 updated to today morning (Thursday July 31), and | TangoGPS. | Also have the map cache directory on the card. Normally works fine, but | when I move indoors, | gps shows 10 satellite fixes and gives my speed as 482 Km/h (really | it did). | | So either I broke the land speed record for a guy on foot ... or I think | I will have to have that | capacitor fix. I dunno how a 10pF capacitor on SD_CLK is going to fix the GPS chip acting erratic when it genuinely loses the satellites as you move indoors. FWIW you'll need to wait for tomorrow's kernels to get yesterday's two fixes in there. - -Andy Hi Andy, I'm the guy who said that. Actually I based my observation on the fact that i saw an entry of 10/x/y as the endmost entry on the TangoGPS status line. Isn't that supposed to mean that it still has fixes from 10 satellites. So I thought it must be a SNR issue and the capacitor fix is supposed to help on that ... right? This was all guesswork on my part. If somebody could help with how to make observations on GPS performance, I'd be glad to do testing and provide input. The kernel update is going on as I type this. So will test again today if possible. And don't worry ... will be doing the hardware fix only after OM finally, after all software fixes, decides it will still help / otherwise not. -- Vibhav ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Warranty after fix for GTA02 GPS rework for SD card interference issue
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Somebody in the thread at some point said: | After a reboot, it worked ok so its a false alarm - sorry! Thanks for clearing it up. - -Andy -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Fedora - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iEYEARECAAYFAkiSqhMACgkQOjLpvpq7dMoNKACfRwjF9AzZYTAxKMV2hcHxoGot zTcAn3ZHN+SwDlJ6BwKXNV3JV67cMaka =bx00 -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Warranty after fix for GTA02 GPS rework for SD card interferenceissue
Hi there! I'm not Andy obviously, but I think I still can answer that one ;) Hi Andy, I'm the guy who said that. Actually I based my observation on the fact that i saw an entry of 10/x/y as the endmost entry on the TangoGPS status line. Isn't that supposed to mean that it still has fixes from 10 satellites. So I thought it must be a SNR issue and the capacitor fix is supposed to help on that ... right? Actually, the first number in 10/x/y in TangoGPS' status line represents the number of visible satellites, not the number of fixes you got. So if it says 10/0/x, that means you can see 10 satellites, but don't have a fix (because, for example, the signal is too weak). So it's quite normal you didn't get a gps trace if the second number was 0. HTH, Konstantin ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Warranty after fix for GTA02 GPS rework for SD card interferenceissue
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Somebody in the thread at some point said: | Actually I based my observation on the fact that i saw an entry of | 10/x/y as the endmost entry on the TangoGPS status line. | Isn't that supposed to mean that it still has fixes from 10 satellites. Our GPS chip is quite capable to report garbage as fact, for a while anyway. I also saw things like 12 satellites each with individual SNR reported, when I inserted or removed internal antenna while powered (something you aren't meant to do BTW). After some seconds these disappeared from the reporting back to the virtual reality they came from. So madness under extreme circumstances is normal for it I believe. | So I thought it must be a SNR issue and the capacitor fix | is supposed to help on that ... right? At the time the cap workaround was conceived, we ran SD_CLK all the time even with the card idle and did not test for what it does during card transactions. Since then, the way we treat the card has gotten seriously more optimized: ~ - SD_CLK is stopped unless we are making an access ~ - Voltage to shipping SD Card is reduced to 2.7V from 3.3V ~ - Edges on all SD signals have reduced slew rate ~ - SD_CLK rate is reduced if GPS unit is powered The reason I avoid recommending the cap is there are 6 signals going to the card, not just SD_CLK, and during transfer 5 of them have a lot of rapid transitions. The reasoning for cherrypicking SD_CLK is no longer entirely valid. | This was all guesswork on my part. If somebody could help with how to | make observations on GPS performance, I'd be glad to | do testing and provide input. I'm afraid I don't know the userspace apps. I literally cat the serial port and read the NMEA. Maybe someone else can advise, this Tango GPS thing seems to be widely admired. | The kernel update is going on as I type this. So will test again today | if possible. And don't worry ... will be doing the hardware | fix only after OM finally, after all software fixes, decides it will | still help / otherwise not. Great, more info the better we can understand where we are at. - -Andy -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Fedora - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iEYEARECAAYFAkiSrNcACgkQOjLpvpq7dMpomACdGwqta90evIBOQdaKfiJT8jt4 FV0AoI2NVwAiSoxG2uEKCSEc+Dmj+wWN =w8aN -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Warranty after fix for GTA02 GPS rework for SD card interference issue
Le vendredi 01 août 2008, Andy Green a écrit : opkg install kernel-module-g-ether kernel-module-cdc-ether Having updated the kernel and everything, I get a FATAL error with that: opkg install kernel-module-g-ether kernel-module-cdc-ether Installing kernel-module-g-ether (2:2.6.24+git27+1a95efdc23966343a3b432ceef2f6c24dc0e2052-r2) to root... Downloading http://buildhost.openmoko.org/daily-feed/om-gta02/kernel-module-g-ether_2.6.24+git27+1a95efdc23966343a3b432ceef2f6c24dc0e2052-r2_om-gta02.ipk Installing kernel-module-cdc-ether (2:2.6.24+git27+1a95efdc23966343a3b432ceef2f6c24dc0e2052-r2) to root... Downloading http://buildhost.openmoko.org/daily-feed/om-gta02/kernel-module-cdc-ether_2.6.24+git27+1a95efdc23966343a3b432ceef2f6c24dc0e2052-r2_om-gta02.ipk Configuring kernel-module-cdc-ether Configuring kernel-module-g-ether FATAL: Module g_ether not found. Then the module is not loaded at boot time. I have to cd /lib/modules/2.6.24/kernel/drivers/usb/gadget insmod g_ether.ko /etc/init.d/networking restart Minh -- Minh HA-DUONGChargé de recherche CNRS [EMAIL PROTECTED] CIRED, Campus du Jardin Tropical tel: +33 1 43 94 73 81 45bis ave. de la Belle Gabrielle fax: +33 1 43 94 73 70F94736 Nogent-sur-Marne, France Jabber: [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://minh.haduong.com (work), http://minh69.blogspot.com (personal) ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Warranty after fix for GTA02 GPS rework for SD card interference issue
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Somebody in the thread at some point said: | Le vendredi 01 août 2008, Andy Green a écrit : | opkg install kernel-module-g-ether kernel-module-cdc-ether | | Having updated the kernel and everything, I get a FATAL error with that: | | opkg install kernel-module-g-ether kernel-module-cdc-ether | Installing kernel-module-g-ether | (2:2.6.24+git27+1a95efdc23966343a3b432ceef2f6c24dc0e2052-r2) to root... | Downloading | http://buildhost.openmoko.org/daily-feed/om-gta02/kernel-module-g-ether_2.6.24+git27+1a95efdc23966343a3b432ceef2f6c24dc0e2052-r2_om-gta02.ipk | Installing kernel-module-cdc-ether | (2:2.6.24+git27+1a95efdc23966343a3b432ceef2f6c24dc0e2052-r2) to root... | Downloading | http://buildhost.openmoko.org/daily-feed/om-gta02/kernel-module-cdc-ether_2.6.24+git27+1a95efdc23966343a3b432ceef2f6c24dc0e2052-r2_om-gta02.ipk | Configuring kernel-module-cdc-ether | Configuring kernel-module-g-ether | FATAL: Module g_ether not found. | | Then the module is not loaded at boot time. | | I have to | cd /lib/modules/2.6.24/kernel/drivers/usb/gadget | insmod g_ether.ko | /etc/init.d/networking restart Did you run the depmod step recommended by Thomas B? I guess it can by why you had to insmod instead of modprobe. The packages should do it on install, but evidently not or it didn't complete far enough. - -Andy -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Fedora - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iEYEARECAAYFAkiSyTsACgkQOjLpvpq7dMqcaACfT7NA4fMLvPcNzVgEAlti3iJA 1CUAn1M2lzs8MirrBDrpg5clbN7zfuuH =Ez0Z -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Warranty after fix for GTA02 GPS rework for SD card interferenceissue
Vinc Duran schrieb: But... what are our chances GTA03 will have a 3D gyro? Could the accelerometers be substituted for a 3d gyro? No, you need both accelerometer *and* gyro measurements for dead reckoning. Andreas ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Warranty after fix for GTA02 GPS rework for SD card interferenceissue
On Friday 01 August 2008, Vinc Duran wrote: On Thu, Jul 31, 2008 at 5:28 PM, Andreas Bogk [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: snip I'm not a mathematician, but I think I have sufficiently understood Kalman filters and dead reckoning. A little known trick is to use ordinary integration with the strap-down equation given the accelerometer and gyro input, and have the Kalman filter model the error terms instead of the physical model state space. This way, you only have to update the Kalman filter every time you get a GPS fix, not every time you get a measurement from the other sensors. But... what are our chances GTA03 will have a 3D gyro? Andreas Andreas, Could the accelerometers be substituted for a 3d gyro? We only need to replace 1 of the 2 3D accels with a 3D gyro. I've not looked at the size or cost of solid state gyros so I don't know how practical that might be. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Warranty after fix for GTA02 GPS rework for SD card interferenceissue
Al Johnson schrieb: We only need to replace 1 of the 2 3D accels with a 3D gyro. I've not looked at the size or cost of solid state gyros so I don't know how practical that might be. Well, if this: http://www.invensense.com/products/idg_300.html had three axes instead of two, it would be suitable... it's designed for small size and low cost. All other gyros I've found so far are too big for a mobile phone application. Andreas ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Warranty after fix for GTA02 GPS rework for SD card interferenceissue
Al Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: We only need to replace 1 of the 2 3D accels with a 3D gyro. I've not looked at the size or cost of solid state gyros so I don't know how practical that might be. That's not a bad idea... I haven't looked into what accelerometers we have in the FR, but there are plenty of MEMS gyros available; maybe one will have the same or similar pin configuration. I know the gyros and accelerometers made by Analog Devices are very close to pin compatible. Last time I checked (about a year ago), there weren't any 3D MEMS gyros on the market. There was one company offering what was basically 2 2D gyros glued to each other. I think there's some kind of manufacturing hurdle that has to be overcome to make them 3D, so they may not be available in a small size or integrated unit. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Warranty after fix for GTA02 GPS rework for SD card interference issue
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Somebody in the thread at some point said: | and a negative - I moved the maps in tangoGPS from /tmp to the (orig | freerunner) sdcard and it only works partially or not at all. This is | offline usage. If I am online and I delete the map cache so tango | starts clean, it loads the maps fine - probably caches them in ram. If | I go offline to move around, only the maps cached in ram are displayed. | I can see the files on the sd card so that part is ok. | | If I use /tmp tango is fine. Sorry when you say works partially or not at all, what is the symptom? ~ Is that a GPS issue or a maps on SD Card data retrieval issue? Which kernel? - -Andy -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Fedora - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iEYEARECAAYFAkiRbAYACgkQOjLpvpq7dMqEJACdFaBF+0Mja4QCWYotfW6o/QEV tRoAn0asAwK2ReeUR4qmRCcKdgX46/mc =YKC/ -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
RE: Warranty after fix for GTA02 GPS rework for SD card interferenceissue
Do folks know wher to find the SOP for the cap fix? Tony, if you havent already, go ahead and post the SOP for the cap fix. It's easy enough to do And undo. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Jay Vaughan Sent: Wednesday, July 30, 2008 1:14 AM To: List for Openmoko community discussion Subject: Re: Warranty after fix for GTA02 GPS rework for SD card interferenceissue I haven't had any problems with TTFF since the software update was done. In fact my impression from all the emails on the subject was that the software fix was enough. Try putting tangogps in a configuration where its updating the tiles frequently - zoom way in, so that you have a closeup of your map, and then walk around a bit. In between tile updates, GPS will go way off the map. Thats the problem: its a workaround, but not a complete, effective fix. Looks like we have to have the capacitor-fix in place to make this work smoothly without further glitches .. ; -- Jay Vaughan ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
RE: Warranty after fix for GTA02 GPS rework for SD card interferenceissue
Hmm. Jay... Amaybe when SD I/O occurs one could use the accelerometers to dead reckon? They are noisy and drift but for short periods MIGHT be able to keep wild errors in mapping from occuring. Just a thought. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Jay Vaughan Sent: Wednesday, July 30, 2008 1:24 AM To: List for Openmoko community discussion Subject: Re: Warranty after fix for GTA02 GPS rework for SD card interferenceissue (We have external LNA) It means it can track with a 16dBm reduction in GPS signal after it made the satellite acquisitions. So if you understood it will get a fix OK with the software workaround, and we saw many people report this, you should expect the tracking phase to work better than the acquisition phase since the signal requirement is relaxed by 16dBm. My experience has proven that this is not the case; yes the fix happens sooner, but if SD I/O occurs during tracking phase, wild errors are still introduced into the GPS signal sufficient to drive us off the map. Just sayin', not trying to stir the pot. I've been testing this GPS fix every day since it arrived, by tracking my progress to work, and if I zoom too closely (meaning there is more SD I/O on map refreshes) the GPS goes wild. That'll be interesting. But in the real world many thing perturb GPS tracking and sophisticated software filters are anyway used to try to see through excursions, I guess this will be the case for typical SD Card usage pattern here. My ride to and from work is through a wide open space with no obstructions, lots of blue sky, and for sure .. SD I/O still massively impacts GPS *accuracy*. Not just in the acquisition phase, but also tracking .. ; -- Jay Vaughan ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Warranty after fix for GTA02 GPS rework for SD card interferenceissue
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Somebody in the thread at some point said: | Do folks know wher to find the SOP for the cap fix? | | Tony, if you havent already, go ahead and post the SOP for the cap fix. It's | easy enough to do | And undo. Did you ever do it, steve? - -Andy -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Fedora - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iEYEARECAAYFAkiRzVQACgkQOjLpvpq7dMpGLwCeO+mNJpn0Fk/bMnaoSN3n6o5a 1bEAniOPccvfrk8WZ+/lIUjVlxUE5pZd =xFkQ -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Warranty after fix for GTA02 GPS rework for SD card interferenceissue
steve schrieb: Amaybe when SD I/O occurs one could use the accelerometers to dead reckon? Dead reckoning without gyros is pretty hard. In theory, the two accelerometers are not mounted in the same place and thus could be used to derive rotation, but in practice they're pretty close to each other, and given the noise of measurement one is unlikely to derive a good rotation from them. Andreas ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Warranty after fix for GTA02 GPS rework for SD card interferenceissue
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Somebody in the thread at some point said: | steve schrieb: | Amaybe when SD I/O occurs one could use the accelerometers to dead reckon? | | Dead reckoning without gyros is pretty hard. In theory, the two | accelerometers are not mounted in the same place and thus could be used | to derive rotation, but in practice they're pretty close to each other, | and given the noise of measurement one is unlikely to derive a good | rotation from them. I don't think we need to worry about it, but in fact we wouldn't need to dead-reckon. All we would need it for would be to put a ceiling on claims from noisy GPS about what accelerations we could have experienced. If the GPS sample says we jumped 100m in 1s, but the accels didn't really see anything, we could ignore or meddle with the GPS sample. Whether that is any better than just filtering between previous and later samples I doubt. - -Andy -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Fedora - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iEYEARECAAYFAkiRz5EACgkQOjLpvpq7dMpNLQCfcPdC9ZdSelPGiP+D9TVapDI0 94AAnjkmnCWge5RxXewJ40gchhA1n+Ne =jCLG -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Warranty after fix for GTA02 GPS rework for SD card interferenceissue
Andy Green wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Somebody in the thread at some point said: | steve schrieb: | Amaybe when SD I/O occurs one could use the accelerometers to dead reckon? | | Dead reckoning without gyros is pretty hard. In theory, the two | accelerometers are not mounted in the same place and thus could be used | to derive rotation, but in practice they're pretty close to each other, | and given the noise of measurement one is unlikely to derive a good | rotation from them. I don't think we need to worry about it, but in fact we wouldn't need to dead-reckon. All we would need it for would be to put a ceiling on claims from noisy GPS about what accelerations we could have experienced. If the GPS sample says we jumped 100m in 1s, but the accels didn't really see anything, we could ignore or meddle with the GPS sample. Inertial navigation systems for the masses! Anyone here who wants to write a kalman filter? Besides the point that a small pocket-IMU would be great. To GPS jumts that big exist? As fas as i understand GPS it should have little jitter. -- Drucken Sie diese Mail bitte nur auf Recyclingpapier aus. Please print this mail only on recycled paper. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Warranty after fix for GTA02 GPS rework for SD card interferenceissue
This one? http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Image:Gta02_gps_10pf_rework_sop.pdf On Thursday 31 July 2008, steve wrote: Do folks know wher to find the SOP for the cap fix? Tony, if you havent already, go ahead and post the SOP for the cap fix. It's easy enough to do And undo. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Warranty after fix for GTA02 GPS rework for SD card interferenceissue
Tilman Baumann wrote: Andy Green wrote: Inertial navigation systems for the masses! Anyone here who wants to write a kalman filter? Besides the point that a small pocket-IMU would be great. To GPS jumts that big exist? As fas as i understand GPS it should have little jitter. Hi, I'm using OM2007.2 updated to today morning (Thursday July 31), and TangoGPS. Also have the map cache directory on the card. Normally works fine, but when I move indoors, gps shows 10 satellite fixes and gives my speed as 482 Km/h (really it did). So either I broke the land speed record for a guy on foot ... or I think I will have to have that capacitor fix. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Warranty after fix for GTA02 GPS rework for SD card interferenceissue
Besides the point that a small pocket-IMU would be great. To GPS jumts that big exist? As fas as i understand GPS it should have little jitter. Trimble had a few GPS models out with dead reckoning. Not pocket sized. I think they are all off the market now. I got one off Ebay a few weeks ago but have not had time to set it up yet. To me it's more interesting reading the manuals and learning how it works since I don't use my car more than once a month. Trimble was addressing loss of signal in urban canyons not (ahem) antenna placement issues. See http://www.trimble.com/tms/placer450.aspx?dtID=overview They use a small gyroscope. There are much smaller gyros available now but my intuition from reading their materials is that it will work in a car if you are going fast enough (they want you to go 22 mph) to generate steady predictable g forces but if you are going at a walking pace it would never work. If you are walking around and want a reasonable position the Kalman filter would probably be easier to deal with. Is there a mathematician in the house? Brian ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Warranty after fix for GTA02 GPS rework for SD card interferenceissue
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Somebody in the thread at some point said: | I'm using OM2007.2 updated to today morning (Thursday July 31), and | TangoGPS. | Also have the map cache directory on the card. Normally works fine, but | when I move indoors, | gps shows 10 satellite fixes and gives my speed as 482 Km/h (really | it did). | | So either I broke the land speed record for a guy on foot ... or I think | I will have to have that | capacitor fix. I dunno how a 10pF capacitor on SD_CLK is going to fix the GPS chip acting erratic when it genuinely loses the satellites as you move indoors. FWIW you'll need to wait for tomorrow's kernels to get yesterday's two fixes in there. - -Andy -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Fedora - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iEYEARECAAYFAkiSDf0ACgkQOjLpvpq7dMq0iQCdEkhemui8JzNoBt3NeyOGD55P /nkAni7SJUfnNdS+cOzZL2l9PmTQ+X8X =TUti -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Warranty after fix for GTA02 GPS rework for SD card interference issue
I did some testing today to add some more data points (or fuel on the fire, depending on your point of view :-) What I did was run three test, one with the SD card removed, one with the SD card installed but idle and one with the SD card being used heavily. For each test, I ran simultaneous tests on two other GPS receivers to give a reference point. The short version is that SD card activity really messes up the GPS, the long version can be found here (complete with pretty plots and tables and everything :-) : http://www.millions.ca/~stacy/neoFreeRunner/gpstale.html ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Warranty after fix for GTA02 GPS rework for SD card interferenceissue
Brian Wilson schrieb: See http://www.trimble.com/tms/placer450.aspx?dtID=overview They use a small gyroscope. [...] If you are walking around and want a reasonable position the Kalman filter would probably be easier to deal with. Is there a mathematician in the house? I'm not a mathematician, but I think I have sufficiently understood Kalman filters and dead reckoning. A little known trick is to use ordinary integration with the strap-down equation given the accelerometer and gyro input, and have the Kalman filter model the error terms instead of the physical model state space. This way, you only have to update the Kalman filter every time you get a GPS fix, not every time you get a measurement from the other sensors. But... what are our chances GTA03 will have a 3D gyro? Andreas ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Warranty after fix for GTA02 GPS rework for SD card interference issue
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Somebody in the thread at some point said: | I did some testing today to add some more data points (or fuel on the | fire, depending on your point of view :-) Let's say you did nice work there enabling us to converge on an understanding of the issue :-) | What I did was run three test, one with the SD card removed, one with | the SD card installed but idle and one with the SD card being used | heavily. For each test, I ran simultaneous tests on two other GPS | receivers to give a reference point. | | The short version is that SD card activity really messes up the GPS, the | long version can be found here (complete with pretty plots and tables | and everything :-) : | | http://www.millions.ca/~stacy/neoFreeRunner/gpstale.html About the 600sec thing, you can get the GPS chip to report 4 times a second instead of once a second, maybe that can be to do with it. But it is strange, noticing the heavy filtering on our results I wonder if a lot of those samples coming so quickly were actually synthetic. For the last result, it seems to show only 2 / 2500 results from GPS are within 20 Million meters of the location. It's hard to square that with the other decent results that have been reported for tracking, including ones pulling maps from SD Card, although I guess you are spamming the card as hard as you can for this test. What actually happened when gpsd died? With that and the extreme nature of the last result I wonder if something else goes on. One last thing, the voltage scaling and clock rate reduction patches aren't in the kernel you used, they should be around in tomorrow's packages: if you have 600 sec to spare it would be interesting to see if they made any change :-) - -Andy -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Fedora - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iEYEARECAAYFAkiSTTcACgkQOjLpvpq7dMrBQgCeMsay73fnUB4O/xb24JmDZowt HnAAn1noeLVRpc0IQkPVbK9Lc+oEZLDU =/MUZ -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Warranty after fix for GTA02 GPS rework for SD card interferenceissue
On Thu, Jul 31, 2008 at 5:28 PM, Andreas Bogk [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: snip I'm not a mathematician, but I think I have sufficiently understood Kalman filters and dead reckoning. A little known trick is to use ordinary integration with the strap-down equation given the accelerometer and gyro input, and have the Kalman filter model the error terms instead of the physical model state space. This way, you only have to update the Kalman filter every time you get a GPS fix, not every time you get a measurement from the other sensors. But... what are our chances GTA03 will have a 3D gyro? Andreas Andreas, Could the accelerometers be substituted for a 3d gyro? ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Warranty after fix for GTA02 GPS rework for SD card interference issue
One last thing, the voltage scaling and clock rate reduction patches aren't in the kernel you used, they should be around in tomorrow's packages: if you have 600 sec to spare it would be interesting to see if they made any change :-) - -Andy Hi Andy, To get that kernel you reference would I go to http://buildhost.openmoko.org/daily/freerunner/ then to the latest date (like tomorrow) and look for uImage-om-gta02-latest.bin? Just want to make sure I have this right. Thanks ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Warranty after fix for GTA02 GPS rework for SD card interference issue
After a reboot, it worked ok so its a false alarm - sorry! BillK On Thu, 2008-07-31 at 08:38 +0100, Andy Green wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Somebody in the thread at some point said: | and a negative - I moved the maps in tangoGPS from /tmp to the (orig | freerunner) sdcard and it only works partially or not at all. This is | offline usage. If I am online and I delete the map cache so tango | starts clean, it loads the maps fine - probably caches them in ram. If | I go offline to move around, only the maps cached in ram are displayed. | I can see the files on the sd card so that part is ok. | | If I use /tmp tango is fine. Sorry when you say works partially or not at all, what is the symptom? ~ Is that a GPS issue or a maps on SD Card data retrieval issue? Which kernel? - -Andy -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Fedora - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iEYEARECAAYFAkiRbAYACgkQOjLpvpq7dMqEJACdFaBF+0Mja4QCWYotfW6o/QEV tRoAn0asAwK2ReeUR4qmRCcKdgX46/mc =YKC/ -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
