[Computer-go] Is Go group pattern recognition by CNN possible?

[djhbrown .]

Surely, someone, somewhere, has used, or tried to use, a CNN to label
groups in a Go game 361-pixellation?

Q: what's the point of Go?
A: 361

(you would have thought someone else would have already thought of that one)

Minsky and Papert threw a spanner into the works of the NN Magi of the
day, but whose grandchildren are now basking in the reflected glow of
their triumphal triumphant  Man Who Would be King Apollo
Al(pha)exander who has conquered further far East than Kaffiristan -
Peace Be Upon Her prophet Kipling.

The spanner was that the MPs found out that Perceptrons were Baron
Munchausen Walter Mittys who couldn't see the hole in a doughnut,
which meant that although they could learn to out-Pong space invaders,
they would become lost in a Pacman maze.  As they did, as Dm hirelings
let slip out of the bag.

Later, or before, depending on how you look at it, Backpropagators
claimed to have overcome this clog in their Jaquard's Loom in a Simple
Twist of Fate by claiming that Minsky was ancient history just as he
had claimed that they would so become [1], and now the new religion of
Stratified Convolutionism is claiming columnar accession to the throne
of AI, after Marchly breaking the back of the monster Orwellian
Goldstein gold standard Enemy of the Statespace, so it's just a few
weeks left to the Singularity, say the homeopathic snake-oil homology
self-promotional entrepreneurial salesmen.

Sir Humphrey: "Everything is connected... who said that?"
Bernard: "The Cabinet Secretary?"
Sir H: "Nearly right; actually, it was Lenin"

Norman Mailer once ranted that critics should be shot, but The Prince
Vespasian Flavius was cunninger, seeing the wisdom of his
Machiavelli-of-the-day Josephus that rather than claim to be the Sun
incarnate (as had his predecessors and as would his son's successors)
and attempt ViViVi by enfilade brute force, he could rule over the
southern desert troublemakers more easily and cheaply by spin
propaganda alone, simply by pretending he and his son Titus were the
earthly allegory of the heavenly born-again Messiah they yearned for
and put into that character's mouth the platitude that they should
render unto Caesar what is Caesar's, and love their enemies rather
than stone them.

And it worked, for two thousand years, and is still going strong
despite a few seminal whacky  leaks, just as Monty Python's Black
Adder Baldrick C(u)NN(ing) Plan has created a Reich that will last a
thousand years and upon which the sun will never set, so let us parrot
Hymn Number google in the Good Bok of Not the Nine O-Clock News [2]
and that other one:

 "it (symbolic reasoning) is an ex-parrot; it has ceased to be.  Monty
is Great!  I avow that there is no Go but Monty.".

Apologies to those unfamiliar with the various historical allusions
that are variously common and uncommon knowledge among readers of A
History of the English-Speaking Peoples, to whom it will be somewhat
illusory without Googling the Gogglebox. which may cause the more
insecure among them to jump on the bandwagon of striking the first
blow and casting the first stone for the umpteenth time, anxious for
attention and the comfort blanket of communal hatred of any straw man
that stumbles across their blinkered monochrome landscape, so to
relieve the burden of thought, Sherpa the Sean suggests somewheres to
start:

1. http://www.webofstories.com/play/marvin.minsky/25

2. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kqilW8OpeGc

Only a Dostoyevskian Idiot-ic lone wolf apostate would dare leave the
quiet safety of the silent steppes to risk the monotonic ugly-mouthed
egg-throwing of self-righteous smug lion camp followers snug in their
schooled mutual hatred of anything or anyone with more melanin or a
different perspective than their straightjacket mindset.

The record's stuck, the record's stuck.
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[Computer-go] OmegaGo

[djhbrown .]

6D out of the blue is no mean achievement,...  60+ years ago, the
market for gizmos in UK was flooded with cheap Japanese copies of
European products; but whilst innovation and product quality
improvement by European manufacturers faded as their fat cat owners
complacently went cocacola-soaked soft,  Japanese industry, unlike its
USA counterpart, was listening attentively to the wise words of
W.Edwards Deming (eg [1,2]) and beginning to improve the reliability,
efficiency and efficacy of its products, and by about 30 years ago,
Japanese engineering was the equal or better of even German
technology.

Korean, Formosan and Hong Kong e-tigers followed hotfoot in Japan's
footsteps, and now the same thing is happening in China, so we can
expect to see a vast array of Shanghai-teenager-bedroom-produced
shanghaied miniclones of Alpha, most with unimaginative copycat names
like Beta, Eta, Theta, AIota etc, skulking around the corridors of the
Internet, all of which will at first be cheap imitations, but sowing
the seeds of in-house and inter-house R quality circles, so that
their own descendants will before very long become to Californian IT
as Japanese fuel-efficient reliable engines are to US unreliable
gas-guzzlers.

Watch out Google Cloud byte-guzzlers, teenage rebels with the lessons
of Deming in their notebooks, who have learned from history and from
the sterling modus operandi of Steve Jobs and Uncle Tom Cobley et al,
are on their way up your Jacob's ladder...

1.  Charles A. Barclay (1993) Quality Strategy and TQM Policies:
Empirical Evidence.
MIR: Management International Review Vol. 33, Strategic Quality Management.
2.  
http://asq.org/learn-about-quality/total-quality-management/overview/deming-points.html

>> Anybody knows who is the author of BetaGo? It is playing with account
>> GoBeta on KGS, and is 6d.
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Re: [Computer-go] Postscript... Preface

[djhbrown .]

Igor, you are used to seeing game trees with the game record (= 'main
line') at the top, and variations underneath, which is how they are
usually presented - and  gogui 'thinks' the same way as you, and
automatically labels all branches of the tree as variations A,B,C etc.
with the expectation that the reader will expect the main line to be
variation A.

In my view, this is fine up to a point, and that point is when the
tree is not being used by learners, who need to be able to go back and
forth and leap from branch to branch and from start to finish of
variations and back again, all of which is very awkward with cgoban3
and gogui.

game4commented.sgf is unusual, for reasons i gave in my previous
reply, but perhaps they were not clear to you, so i try to explain in
more detail:

the way game trees are displayed by clients follows the 'standard' set
by smartgo; the author of smartgo has himself tried and failed to
change the standard when he realised what was wrong with it, as he
said in an interview on, as best i remember, the gotalk youtube
channel.

that 'standard' is a norm, but it is not a regulation.

on any game tree display, no matter how oriented, we think of both
axes as being axes of time; in the case of cgoban3 displays, big
chunks of time on the vertical axis, and little move-by-move steps in
time along the horizontal.

ordinarily, variations appear following reviews, which are done after
the game has ended,
if each variation is an afterthought on the previous one, the cgoban3
display makes sense.

but if it isn't, it doesn't.

one way to make the picture clearer would be to colour variation lines
according to whether they are the game record, or a certain
commentator's thoughts, or a players review, etc.  in fact, i did
produce such a picture, for the first 2 commentaries i included, but
after adding a third commentary i felt too lazy to colour a picture of
the new tree.  plus, even though the variation sequences are
relatively short, and there aren't that many of them, the whole tree
is too big to fit onto my computer screen without scrolling, and in
any case, i can only colour a picture of the tree, not the tree
itself, so you would need both the plain tree and my coloured picture
of it side by side, each taking up a whole screen, so you would have
to buy a third screen to see the board as well !

...

Petr asked about text reviews of the game; i appreciate that for those
whose mother tongue is not English, text is easier to understand than
speech (it's the same for me with French, and i depend on Google
Translate for other languages, clumsy though its translations may be).

You could have the best of both worlds, if you watched, say, Kim's
video on one screen whilst having my sgf open on the other - it would
be kind of like having a subtitle tree

but on the other hand, if you want to learn a foreign language like
English, there is only one way.  ONLY ONE:  you have to "swim" in it;
you have to speak as well as listen, and leave reading for the birds.
Native speakers do not learn language by reading, and neither can ESL
students.



as a member of a biological species evolved to swing through trees
rather than read books about them, i find video to be a far more
efficient information transfer medium than text,



which is why, when i get around to explaining how a computer can speak
English about a Go game, i will do so by way of a video presentation
(or will i?...having second thoughts, now, as it would be more
intelligible to second language users in book form).

when it comes to imaginative novels, i empathise with the goat who was
eating some film that had been dumped in a Hollywood garbage can.  His
friend asked what it was like, to which he replied:

 "not bad..., but it's not as good as the book!"
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Re: [Computer-go] Postscript... Preface

[djhbrown .]

yes, it is an unusual configuration, deliberately so, because its
emphasis is on the thought processes of the commentators rather than
just the bland sequence of moves 1,2,3,4 etc; if you only want to see
the main line, you can find it on gogameguru.com.

in my sgf, the branches are organised by time and by logical
progression, so we can follow the thoughts of the commentators before
a move is played, and those they made afterwards, although sometimes i
have put postmatch comments before the main line, where they are
intended by the commentators to be tutorial in nature, so you can see
why the players chose the moves they did in context.

it's not hard to find the main line (the actual game); it's the
longest branch, which is easy to see if you have a tree viewer open on
the side.

i appreciate it would be hard to navigate in the dark without being
able to see the tree as well

On 16/04/2016, Igor Polyakov <weiqiprogramm...@gmail.com> wrote:
> it bothers me that the main line is not the main line
>
> On 2016-04-15 23:35, djhbrown . wrote:
>> <http://lcipm.blogspot.com.au/> = Go talking software
>> (featuring coalesced expert commentaries on Alphago's mistake in game 4
>> and a suggestion for an enduser-useful variation network editor
>> student programming project)
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[Computer-go] Postscript... Preface

[djhbrown .]

 = Go talking software
(featuring coalesced expert commentaries on Alphago's mistake in game 4
and a suggestion for an enduser-useful variation network editor
student programming project)
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Re: [Computer-go] Lee Sedol's reviews on AlphaGo games

[djhbrown .]

ry,
but what about figuring out their meanings? And deciding what to do
about them? How does your brain think? And how do you feel?

If you read back a little bit, you will see that i have already told
you the answer to all these deep philosphical and spiritual questions.

Remember the neuron CEO? It makes a decision; it chooses between 'yes'
and 'no' - between 'on' and 'off'.

Put a few building bricks together in the right way and you get a
house. Or a car. Or a computer.

That's right, your brain is a biological digital computer made of
billions of neuron CEOs and their assistant dendrites and axopn
terminals, assisted by manual workers like glial cells which keep
their bosses well fed and clean.

And so, finally, we come to Alphago.

She isn't a biological digital computer, nor is she just an adding
machine like a pocket calculator.

Or is she?

Alpha has lots of neurons too; they're a bit different from biological
neurons but not all that different, in terms of the function they
perform. They have their own electronic equivalent of tweet receving
and sending hands and their own equivalent of the neuron CEO which
does a pretty similar job - because its function was inspired by the
function of the biological neurons that are found in all animals with
brains, including sea slugs and starfish.

But that's where the similarity ends, for whereas biological neurons
can grow and shrink, and live and die, and make new friends and lose
old ones, artificial neurons are more like soldiers lined up in rows
that only do what they're told to do when they're told to do it.

Nevertheless, they can be told to learn, to change their CEOs'
decisonmaking behaviours. If all goes well, CEOs are given a bonus,
but if things go badly, they are turned down - if only that happened
to the human CEOs that robbed the poor of their savings in 1929 and
2008 and did all sorts of other awful things like starting and
financing wars! But that''s another story

One drop in the ocean doesn't make much difference, and changing one
CEO's mind doesn't make much difference. But an ocean is made of
drops, so if you change a lot of them, you change the way the whole
thing works.

Alpha's neurons do a pretty good job of guessing what is a good move,
but because you can't really know what's truly good or bad until you
try it out, Alpha has another trick up her sleeve: she guesses what
the future will bring by rolling dice.

Yes, you heard it right - she just guesses! She follows her guesses
all the way to the end of the game, sees who won, and then sends that
information back down the line (actually, back down the tree of lines,
which branches at every move) to improve her estimates of the values
of her initial guess, and carries on doing that until either she's
pretty sure she's found as good a move as she can, or her automatic
alarm clock tells her to just choose because the clock is ticking.

Lee Sedol and the rest of us should scratch our heads as well as shake
them in dismay, for we all have been beaten at our own game by a
dumbass box of tricks that just guesses. Fancy that!




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Re: [Computer-go] Beginner question : how to choose a board representation

[djhbrown .]

Jean-Francois Romang wrote " I want to start something new. :-)"

do you mean an engine new to Go programming, or just something new to you?

if the latter, you could copy and paste a published algorithm or
recode alphago which is fully described by its Nature paper.  that
would be like reinventing the steam engine or colouring in a
paint-by-numbers picture; it will keep you busy and you would
doubtless learn a lot about programming in the process, but it won't
be anything new.

but if the former, you could consider starting to build a new kind of
engine that works using a truly new method, such as the one i have
described in earlier postings to this list, or (much easier) writing a
few lines of interface code to get NAO to play Go.

either way, i venture to suggest that a fine detail like a board
representation is just about the last thing you should worry about,
unless you plan to build your engine by a process of trial and error
without first thinking through how it's going to work.
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Re: [Computer-go] joseki tutors

[djhbrown .]

thank you Robert, Petr and Michael for sharing;  i have to admit i was
surprised by the number of joseki tutors out there; i vaguely remember
it was all started by smartgo, wasn't it?  btw, does smartgo run
properly under wine on Linux?

I am bemused by josekipedia's use of vox populi to vote for the
"ideal" move; in this respect, it's a human-world version of
Monte-Carlo :)  PS i don't know about you, but i only want to see
which choices are good - i don't care about the bad choices, i can
make those by myself!

just imagine if all the joseki tool tutor creators were to get
together with some usability experts and jointly produce an offline
Multivarsity [1] tutor with satnav-style voiceovers instead of text
that could be downloaded and integrated into a playing client, so
klutzes like me could learn as we do, instead of doing and learning
being separate activities, or clumsily having to flip between one
window and another (perhaps it would be easier with two screens,
keyboards and mice, one in each hand like a pianist!).

back in the Mediaeval days, there were no schools whipping kids like
slave-sheep into mindset corrals, and youngsters learned trade skills
by serving apprenticeships in a meaningful environment, learning as
they were doing.  i was one of the last lucky few, having been able to
earn the princely sum of 325 quid pa as a programming apprentice at
age 16 [aside: Marconi Research Labs Automation Division that hired me
rented me out to Radar Division (the contract holder) for 5 grand pa -
by the end of the project i was engaged on, Radar Division had made a
loss whereas Automation Division had made a profit but i can't
take all the credit for that! :) ]

when i look at what has happened to the education system in the last
30 years, i cannot but weep for the young at how capitalism and
competition forcing mother and daughter to work for the yankee dollar
has turned the school systems of the world from a service to the poor
to a disservice of servitude for all but the rich in which kids are
treated like stones on the board being played by players who only want
to beat each other at their game of trying to be number 1 on some
arbitrary ladder of arbitrary metrics derived from arbitrary marking
of arbitrary examinations on arbitrary content.

perhaps computers can come to the rescue in education as well as in
Go, as more and more routine operations - such as choosing a joseki -
can be automated.

[1] 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uSL-TuMlQZo=9=PL4y5WtsvtduozO-9oG5nZZI8IPUD6EDif

Addendum:  edited copy of my previously posted functionality wishlist,
for consideration by tutor programmers:

the thing about josekis is not where you start, nor even where you
step, but where you end up

i'd love to have a joseki tutor sitting inside a game playing client which could
assist me by offerring the following information display and
navigation functions:

- click on last move to initiate a matchup with the tutor and start an overlay
flip-through by spacebar of just the endpoints of the main lines of
variations starting from there, so i can see which variation would
suit the game position i am in. that way i can start to learn where
josekis end instead of just where they start and how they branch.

the endpoints of the main lines of alternate lines can be viewed by
spacebar after navigating:

- right/left arrows crawl forward/back along a branch
- up/down arrows jump up/down to the start of the next variation up or
down (think of the tree as being laid out sideways), regardless of
wherever you are on a branch.

- Enter on first move of variation being shown to make its move on the
gameboard,
- esc to return to own play mode.

i am unaware of any existing client/editor/tutor that has these
variation visualisation and
navigation buttons in just the way i have described.

usability is inversely proportional to programmability; my suggestions
would make life
easy for users but be a bit of work for a developer.
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Re: [Computer-go] (no subject)

[djhbrown .]

on the subject of tools for learning josekis, i would love to have to
the help of a computerised assistant who could show me a flip-through
"photo album" of how alternative paths in a joseki end up, without
having to plod along the paths (which to me is a dark and mysterious
tree of paths in a dark and mysterious forest)

the thing about josekis is not where you start, nor even where you
step, but where you end up

i'd love to have kogo sitting inside a game playing client which could
assist me by offerring the following navigation functions:

- click on last move to initiate a matchup with kogo and start a
flip-through by spacebar of just the ends of the main lines of
variations starting from there, so i can see which variation would
suit the game position i am in. that way i can start to learn where
josekis end instead of just where they start.

- right/left arrows crawl forward/back along a branch
- up/down arrows jump up/down (to the start of) variation branches.
(think of the tree as being laid out sideways)

- click on variation being shown to make its first move on the gameboard,
- backspace or esc to return to own play mode.

i am unaware of any existing client/editor that has these variation
navigation buttons in just the way i have described; the ones i use
right now are cgoban and gogui - the latter because it loads kogo
miles quicker than cgoban

usability is inversely proportional to programmability; this would be
easy for users but a bit of work for a developer.

PS kogo is great for corner openings, but there are also middle edge
and yose josekis that pros learn and occasionally mention in video
lectures, so if they were included too, that would help us novices out
a lot.

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Re: [Computer-go] new challenge for Go programmers

[djhbrown .]

On 31/03/2016, "Ingo Althöfer" <3-hirn-ver...@gmx.de> wrote:
> somehow he went into a
> "strange loop", and in the end he was asked to stop posting.

asked by the very person i was trying to help!  That was the last straw.

Ironically, whilst i was openly trying to help all montes, not just
the one i admired most, DeepMind was secretly making a new monster
that would eat it for breakfast and bury it.

It was not me that was in a strange loop, but it was my mistake to
respond to various thickheaded trolls.  That experience taught me that
the only way for children to cope with internet bullies is to ignore
them, something that BF Skinner had worked out decades ago.

an author's best friend is his critic, but only so long as the
criticism has a rational point and is not merely egotistical vented
spleen.

this is my first and last message about me.  further personal attacks
and attempts by egomaniacs to justify their antisocial behaviour will
be ignored.
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Re: [Computer-go] "English Explanations" based on Neural Networks

[djhbrown .]

s etc).
>>
>> The challenges are getting a large+good dataset of commented positions,
>> producing negative training samples, and representing sequences (or just
>> coordinate points).  But I think there's definitely a path forward
>> possible here to train another neural network that provides explanations
>> based on what the "move prediction" network sees.
>>
>> It could make a great undergraduate thesis or similar.
>>
>> (My original idea was simpler, a "smarter bluetable" chatbot that'd just
>> generate "position-informed kibitz" - not necessarily *informative*
>> kibitz.  Plenty of data for that, probably. ;-)
>>
>> --
>> Petr Baudis
>> If you have good ideas, good data and fast computers,
>> you can do almost anything. -- Geoffrey Hinton
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Re: [Computer-go] new challenge for Go programmers

[djhbrown .]

thank you very much Ben for sharing the inception work, which may well
open the door to a new avenue of AI research.  i am particularly
impressed by one pithy statement the authors make:

 "We must go deeper: Iterations"

i remember as an undergrad being impressed by the expressive power of
recursive functions, and later by the iterative quality of biological
growth and its fractal nature.

seeing animals in clouds is a bit like seeing geta in a go position;
so maybe one way to approach the problem of chatting with a CNN might
be to seek correlations between convolution weights and successive
stone configurations that turn up time and time again in games.

it may be that some kind of iterative procedure could do this, just as
my iterative procedure for circumscribing a group has a recursive
quality to its definition.

all you need then is to give such a correlation a name, and you will
be on the way to discovering a new language for talking about Go.


On 31/03/2016, Ben  wrote:
> It would be very interesting to see what these go playing neural
> networks dream about [1].
> [1]
> http://googleresearch.blogspot.de/2015/06/inceptionism-going-deeper-into-neural.html
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Re: [Computer-go] new challenge for Go programmers

[djhbrown .]

I fully agree with Goncalo that it would be worth investigating how
one could write an algorithm to express in English what Alpha's or
DCNNigo's nets
have learned, and a month ago (before her astonishing achievement in
March) offerred some ideas on how this might be approached in a
youtube comment on Kim's review of the Fan Hui games:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NHRHUHW6HQE

the relevant section of which is (abridged):

"a further, "higher-level" pattern leaning algorithm might be able to
induce correlation and/or implication relationships between
convolutions, enabling it to begin to develop its own ontology of
perceptions, perhaps by correlating convolution relationships with
geometric patterns on the board image. ... i look forward to the day
when someone can find a way to induce symbolic pattern descriptions of
relationships between convolutions and image patterns so that betago
(child of alpha) can explain its "thinking" in a way we can understand
and perhaps learn from too."

On 30/03/2016, Gonçalo Mendes Ferreira <go...@sapo.pt> wrote:
> Come on let's all calm down please. :)
>
> David I think the great challenge is in having good insight with AlphaGo
> strength. Many Faces already provides some textual move suggestions, as
> do probably other programs. Any program that doesn't use exclusively
> machine learning or global search, like GNU Go, should be able to
> suggest how it came about a move.
>
> Unfortunately no one has a clue on how to put into words what DCNN
> "know", to produce really meaningful and useful feedback, justifying
> decisions around candidates, etc. This is very much worth investigating.
>
> - Gonçalo
>
>
>
> On 30/03/2016 12:32, Álvaro Begué wrote:
>>> no lack of respect for DeepMind's achievement was contained in my
>>> posting; on the contrary, i was as surprised as anyone at how well she
>>> did and it gave me great pause for thought.
>>>
>>
>> Well, you wrote this:
>>
>>> but convolutional neural networks and monte-carlo simulators have not
>>> advanced the science of artificial intelligence one whit further than
>>> being engineered empirical validations of the 1940s-era theories of
>>> McCullough & Pitts and Ulam respectively, albeit their conjunction
>>> being a seminal validation insofar as duffing up human Go players is
>>> concerned.
>>>
>>
>> That paragraph is disrespectful of AlphaGo and every important development
>> that it was built on. Theorists of the 40s didn't know jackshit about how
>> to make a strong go program or any other part of AI, for that matter.
>>
>> This is like giving credit to the pre-Socratic philosophers for atomic
>> theory, or to Genesis for the Big Bang theory. I am sure there are people
>> that see connections, but no. Just no.
>>
>> one has to expect a certain amount of abuse when going public, and to
>>> expect that eager critics will misrepresent what was said.
>>>
>>
>> Your vast experience in the field means your opinions were formed way
>> before we knew what works and what doesn't, and are essentially worthless.
>>
>> There, you like abuse?
>>
>> Álvaro.
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Mar 30, 2016 at 6:04 AM, djhbrown . <djhbr...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> one has to expect a certain amount of abuse when going public, and to
>>> expect that eager critics will misrepresent what was said.
>>>
>>> no lack of respect for DeepMind's achievement was contained in my
>>> posting; on the contrary, i was as surprised as anyone at how well she
>>> did and it gave me great pause for thought.
>>>
>>> as to preconceived notions, my own notions are postconceived, having
>>> studied artificial intelligence and biological computation over 40
>>> post-doctoral years during which i have published 50 or so
>>> peer-reviewed scientific papers, some in respectable journals,
>>> including New Scientist.
>>>
>>> On 30/03/2016, Stefan Kaitschick <skaitsch...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> Your lack of respect for task performance is misguided imo. Your
>>>> preconceived notions of what intelligence is, will lead you astray.
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> patient: "whenever i open my mouth, i get a shooting pain in my foot"
>>> doctor: "fire!"
>>> http://sites.google.com/site/djhbrown2/home
>>> https://www.youtube.com/user/djhbrown
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Re: [Computer-go] Congratulations to AlphaGo (Statistical significance of results)

[djhbrown .]

"do they have positive or negative correlation?"  intriguing question,
Petri.  Intuitively, we might arbitrarily divide the human population
into two groups; one which is discouraged by failure, and the other
which takes the Lady MacBeth attitude of "screw your courage to the
sticking point, and we'll not fail !"  Again, intuitively, we might
expect the two groups to be roughly equal in size, whereupon it
follows that a series of results involving randomly chosen players
would not be markedly different from statistical independence.

these intuitions are corroborated by one experimental study i came
across with Google Scholar's help:
http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1198/016214501753168217

On 30/03/2016, Petri Pitkanen <petri.t.pitka...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Since there are only two possible outcomes it pretty much normal. Actually
> binomial which will converge to normal given enough samples
>
> Only thing that cans distort is that consecutive games are not
> independent (which
> is probably the case but do they have positive or negative correlation?)
>
> 2016-03-30 13:06 GMT+03:00 Рождественский Дмитрий <divx4...@yandex.ru>:
>
>> I think the error here is that the game outcome is not a normaly
>> distributed random value.
>>
>> Dmitry
>>
>> 30.03.2016, 12:57, "djhbrown ." <djhbr...@gmail.com>:
>> > Simon wrote: "I was discussing the results with a colleague outside
>> > of the Game AI area the other day when he raised
>> > the question (which applies to nearly all sporting events,
>> > given the small sample size involved)
>> > of statistical significance - suggesting that on another week
>> > the result might have been 4-1 to Lee Sedol."
>> >
>> > call me naive, but perhaps you could ask your colleague to calculate
>> > the probability one of side winning 4 games out of 5, and then say
>> > whether that is within 2 standard deviations of the norm.
>> >
>> > his suggestion is complete nonsense, regardless of the small sample
>> > size. perhaps you could ask a statistician next time.
>> >
>> > --
>> > patient: "whenever i open my mouth, i get a shooting pain in my foot"
>> > doctor: "fire!"
>> > http://sites.google.com/site/djhbrown2/home
>> > https://www.youtube.com/user/djhbrown
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>> http://computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go
>>
>


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Re: [Computer-go] new challenge for Go programmers

[djhbrown .]

one has to expect a certain amount of abuse when going public, and to
expect that eager critics will misrepresent what was said.

no lack of respect for DeepMind's achievement was contained in my
posting; on the contrary, i was as surprised as anyone at how well she
did and it gave me great pause for thought.

as to preconceived notions, my own notions are postconceived, having
studied artificial intelligence and biological computation over 40
post-doctoral years during which i have published 50 or so
peer-reviewed scientific papers, some in respectable journals,
including New Scientist.

On 30/03/2016, Stefan Kaitschick <skaitsch...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Your lack of respect for task performance is misguided imo. Your
> preconceived notions of what intelligence is, will lead you astray.
>


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[Computer-go] Congratulations to AlphaGo (Statistical significance of results)

[djhbrown .]

Simon wrote: "I was discussing the results with a colleague outside
of the Game AI area the other day when he raised
the question (which applies to nearly all sporting events,
given the small sample size involved)
of statistical significance - suggesting that on another week
the result might have been 4-1 to Lee Sedol."

call me naive, but perhaps you could ask your colleague to calculate
the probability one of side winning 4 games out of 5, and then say
whether that is within 2 standard deviations of the norm.

his suggestion is complete nonsense, regardless of the small sample
size.  perhaps you could ask a statistician next time.

-- 
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[Computer-go] new challenge for Go programmers

[djhbrown .]

e empty
points as well as occupied ones).

I tested my algorithm by simulating it on a virtual board in various
game positions, marking white controls with white dots and black ones
with black dots.  It works.

The boundary of a group is then the set of edges of connected cps.

The eyespace(s) of a group is/are the set(s) of contiguous empty
points bounded by the group boundary.

If a group has two eyespaces or a single eyespace large enough to form
two eyes, it is alive. If it doesn't, treesearch is necessary to
establish its life-or-death (lod) status.

This is where a second iterative algorithm comes in. It begins with a
narrow fovea (simply the area bounded by the group boundary) and
diverges by "widening the lens" by a single point-width and
treesearching again within the area of the fovea and carrying on
widening and testing by treesearch until either it can find two
unequivocal eyes, or the fovea edge bumps against the boundary of a
live enemy group, and it cannot be extended into that area. This is a
heuristic device, and as such is vulnerable to trick plays by
exhaustive tree searchers like Lee Sedol; for my algorithm would never
have had the temerity and impudence to try to live inside Alpha's
walls in game 4.

In game 5 of the alpha-Lee match, Redmond at one point mentioned a
"black shadow" extending into white's moyo. Redmond pointed out that
this black shadow only existed because the few black stones creating
it were unequivocally alive (in that case, because they already had
one eye and could make another).  And so we come to the influence map:
once lod status is determined, the only remaining question is: how far
does the shadow of a live group extend? Certainly not as far as a
light ray could go - but just how far? My intuitive guess is that a
wall could cast a shadow as far as the wall is high, but no more than
8 spaces, since an empty area of 8x4 on the edge or 8x6 in the middle
is big enough to live inside (my numbers may not be quite right).

On the edge, there's a proverb about jump 3 spaces from a 2-stone
wall, but it doesnt imply jump n+1 spaces from an n-stone wall.
There's another proverb about stay away from thickness, but again, how
far away?  Once again, my guess is far enough that you could, if you
had to, live in the gap between you and the wall and/or escape
sideways towards cps of your own, provided there aren't any enemy cps
in the way.

Now we can produce a meaningful influence map, we can identify
relationships between groups: two groups unite to form a cohort if
their shadows overlap and no enemy shadows get in the way.

Moyos can be circumscribed by Wilcox's "sector lines" (line-of-sight
lines across empty space from one friendly cohort to another).

Armed with these perceptual constructs, AHA can start to think about
what it should do, in terms of 4 layers of abstraction: stones,
groups, cohorts, and moyos, using goal-directed reasoning as described
in my video.

I hope you don't need me to point out that AHA wouldn't suffer from
the horizon effect, either depthwise or breadthwise, because its
searches continue until it is confident that its move candidate will
achieve, against any opposition [subject to its agent Alpha's ability
to so determine], the goal it has set itself for that search - a goal
such as protect a cutting point, or make eyeshape for a cohort, or
expand or reduce a moyo.

Finally, i turn my attention to where this message started, to the
utility of building AHA: its ability, not to beat Alpha at her own
game, but to be able to teach people learning Go by talking in plain
English about what it's thinking.

AHA forms a hierarchy of perceptions about a hierarchy of conceptual
structures manifest in a board position, and sets itself goals to
achieve along the lines so excellently described by Kim Myungwan in
his Harvard presentation
http://www.college-go.org/blog/kim-myungwans-principles-of-go

AHA's conceptual structures are relationships between its conceptual
entities (groups, cohorts, etc) and properties of them.  Relationships
are diadic, and properties are monadic, and i have demonstrated a long
time ago [ref] that the true grammar of English is no more complicated
than the grammar of monadic and diadic algebraic expressions, so there
is a perfect fit between AHA's conceptual structures and English
expressions to express them.  Diadic relationships can be expressed in
plain English using appropriate infix constructs such as "is far away
from" or "interferes with" or "crosses" and monadic concept properties
with simple postfix possessives such as "is" (eg "group X is weak").
And AHA's goals have direct English equivalents (such as "invade moyo
Y" or "make a base for group X").

ref: http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=2205530

QED (Quite Easily Done)


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docto

Re: [Computer-go] Could you please stop using "Zen" and stop posting here?

[djhbrown .]

yes to both requests
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[Computer-go] Overcoming the Monte Horizon Effect

[djhbrown .]

.
Walter and Bruce pointed the way to how Zen et al can be rescued from the
Monte swamp on Go mountain

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1SJbEWuvlMM=28=PL4y5WtsvtduqNW0AKlSsOdea3Hl1X_v-S
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[Computer-go] The Horizon Effect (Part 2)

[djhbrown .]

.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v9XP3C8ygyw=27=PL4y5WtsvtduqNW0AKlSsOdea3Hl1X_v-S
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[Computer-go] MIG26: The Horizon Effect (Part 1)

[djhbrown .]

.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=syYFVSz8kNY=PL4y5WtsvtduqNW0AKlSsOdea3Hl1X_v-S=26
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Re: [Computer-go] what the point is for such a [level playing field] tournament

[djhbrown .]

there are 2 points:

1.  for research reasons, provided all the entrants were open source and
full disclosure.  John McCarthy (the father of AI) pointed out many years
ago (footage featured in my movie "computer Go to come"), it would be like
a one-design sailboat competition, so that it would be the cleverest one
that won, not just the biggest brute.  So that everyone could have a
clearer idea of what made the difference in that edition of the
competition, and so all could build on the latest improvement instead of
having to play catch-up which is not just onerous for the catcher-uppers,
it's also boring for the watching crowd.

2.  for entertainment reasons.  the Colosseum would not have been as
popular if the gladiators were sent in unarmed against lions (btw, neither
were Christians, that's just another piece of fake history invented by spin
doctors).  Football would not be popular if teams of three were pitted
against teams of 2300.

one-design and America's cup are not alternatives, they are brothers, for
each has something to contribute to scientific and technological progress.
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[Computer-go] Nao Go anyone?

[djhbrown .]

.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-7JJDT4jcA0=PL4y5WtsvtduozO-9oG5nZZI8IPUD6EDif=12
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Re: [Computer-go] Limit on processor power?

[djhbrown .]

John McCarthy advocated a level playing-field like one-design sailboat
races for AI competitions.  having competed in some of those (sailboat
races, that is), i can attest that even in one-design formulas, the field
is not entirely level, as flukey winds and the occasional freighter going
through the field can cause upsets of all kinds.

if you want a truly level playing field, you would have to insist on same
programming language as well as same flops and bytes.  And same internet
connection speed and and and

as a human player, i do not find it to be unfair that more often than not
my opponents have greater Go processor power than me, whether because they
are basically smarter or have had more/better training/teachers or whatever.

one of the nice things about Go, which it shares with golf but with no
other competitive recreations that i can think of offhand, is that
differences in playing strengths can be compensated for by handicapping so
that both sides can enjoy pitting themselves against the golf course rather
than the other player per se.  i used to enjoy playing tennis with a fellow
much stronger than me, by introducing a form of handicapping; for every
match won, the winner would have to start with one point fewer.  He would
start a game at -40, thus needing to win 8 points to get to deuce to my 4.

my recommendation would be to not try to make rules, which would only open
a Pandora's box of argumentation - and competitively-minded people are the
most argumentative of all ! -  but instead to introduce handicaps based on
current kgs ratings.

the issue of drugs in athletics was once discussed by the panellists of
"Mock The Week";  Frankie Boyle suggested that there could be two kinds of
Olympics, one without any rules at all (like the "America's Cup" races have
settled on) so we could all enjoy seeing the spectacle of someone with
giraffe-leg extensions run the 100 metres in 0.3 seconds instead of 9 and a
bit (i've made up the scene as i can't remember exactly the hilarious
scenario Frankie used to illustrate his great idea).

i think it rather boils down to whether you see computer Go tournaments as
"mine's bigger than yours" facedowns of the programs, or of the programmers.
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[Computer-go] computer Go to come

[djhbrown .]

.
yes i do misunderstand how anyone can believe Lighthill was right to say AI
cannot ever happen whilst simultaneously not saying people should stop
trying to climb the unclimbable mountain of "Boom! combinatorial explosion"
like the silly old farts featured in my latest cinematic masterpiece
nominated for the prick's de bore at the Canned Heat Film Festival still
are:

"computer Go to come"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ezz_lhYvTW4=PL4y5WtsvtduqNW0AKlSsOdea3Hl1X_v-S=25

Be the last one on your block to see it !  Hurry while stocks last 20% off
offer ends Sunday
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Re: [Computer-go] Vol 69, Issue 5 hoping for a respect as the lottery win

[djhbrown .]

.
Aretha Franklin wanted r-e-s-p-e-c-t, but frankly, my dear, i don't give a
damn.  this note is not a riposte to the latest epistle in a stream of
libelous personal abuse, but a clarification intended to stimulate thought
among any young-at-hearts that may also subscribe to this forum.

why would anyone want to program a computer to play an old board game?

different people have different reasons because they have different
motivations.

for some, most notably Arthur Samuel, the attraction is self-evidently the
kudos of fathering an electronic alter-ego that has a chance of achieving
fame and glory by becoming the alpha male through gladiatorial olympic
combat on the world's stage; the same motivation that led IBM to spend
quite a lot of advertising budget to beat Gary Kasparov.

for others like Jacques Pitrat, it is mathematical inquisitiveness.  i
mention these two because Pitrat overrode Samuel's veto of my IJCAI 79
paper on the grounds that i hadn't proved my fledgeling ideas by writing a
program like he had done in 1952 (which did little more than demonstrate
that Johnnie von N's 1928 minimax theorem was right in the first place).
Thanks, Jacques!  btw, i didn't find out about my debt of gratitude to
Pitrat until decades later when Feigenbaum's old archives were digitised
and put on the web.

and for yet others, myself included, computer Go is a convenient
experimental testbed for scientific enquiry into the nature of
intelligence, following a path trodden by pioneers like John von Neumann,
Alan Turing and Herbert Simon.

Go is a convenient testbed for theoretical AI research because it is a
narrowly-scoped information domain, one free from the foggy hairyness of
the physical world, which thereby enables one to ponder on experimental
models of knowledge representation and processing without becoming bogged
down by also having to distinguish signal from noise, a significant hurdle
that real-world robots have to confront.
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Re: [Computer-go] Goggernaut Russia+China vs The World stalled machine cycles

[djhbrown .]

.
As a lifelong pacifist [2], i would prefer it had a kinder, gentler name,
one that semiotically signifies United peoples, in contrast to the
doublethink [3] NWO which really means OWN because everything doublethink
means the opposite of what it says; as in 1913 when they said "Federal
Reserve" which means "Private Bloodsucker" and in 1950 when they said
"Foreign Relations" which means "Local Kiru" [5,6] and in 2001 when they
said "They done it" which means "We done it" and again in 2008 when they
said "Quantitative Easing" which means "Quantitative Tightening", because
the effect of writing off the private debt of plutocrats who own the banks
that own the Federal Reserve that issues the currency, is to dilute the
purchasing power of the currency over which they have the stranglehold,
thereby transferring the Wealth Of Nations from the masses to the
plutocratic inner circle (ie, they WON [7]), thereby tightening the belts
and reins and shackles of the robota [1] and again in 2014 when they said
"IS" which means "ISNT".

As it would be knowledgeable, it would be Gnostic.

To reflect its Internationally Distributed Electronic Architecture, it
should remind people of that true-to-life Land of Oz representative
documentary called "Neighbours" in which everyone helps out each other like
a supportive extended family (and Kylie is so cute she makes all the sweaty
effort and expenditure of energy needed for meiosis worthwhile).

Putting two and two together, that makes Gnostic United Neighbours, which
can be abbreviated to its acronym, notwithstanding its proximity to an
antediluvian bovine app, to save those precious stalled [8] machine cycles,
so rare these days [4].

References
[1] http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/robota#Czech
[2]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cTaP5jQv2KI=1=PL4y5Wtsvtdurz6BhIIAnhF_0bbPr-edNd
[3] http://www.orwelltoday.com/doublethink.shtml
[4] http://www.theguardian.com/film/2007/feb/10/comedy.television
[5] http://history.state.gov/historicaldocuments/frus1950v05/preface
[6] http://glosbe.com/ja/en/kiru
[7] http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/10f42a56-6830-11e5-97d0-1456a776a4f5.html
[8] http://stallman.org/stallman-computing.html
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Re: [Computer-go] Computer-go Digest, Vol 69, Issue 4 "Deans and department heads"

[djhbrown .]

.
i may have just been unlucky, but in my experience such people are
impediments to progress rather than catalysts of it, as their principal
preoccupation is cya and/or empire-building

the anarchic web is probably a more fruitful Eden

time is money, so the less money you spend, the more time you have
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Re: [Computer-go] Computer-go Digest, Vol 69, Issue 2

[djhbrown .]

.
"sharing code is typically not going to be practical."

that's not what i suggested.  perhaps someone else can explain the concept
of message-passing distributed architecture better than me
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[Computer-go] modus operandi

[djhbrown .]

"To have a joint effort there would have to be a strong financial force to
pull everyone into the same time table, licensing model, and so on".

Money does make the world go around. Anthropologists and sociologists and
investigative journalists have revealed that throughout the history of
mankind,  the profit motive of unscrupulous goldfingers has exacerbated the
scale of conflicts, turning what had evolved within the human genome as
mate-competition aggression into broadscale rabid genocidal megalomania.
However, there is another side to the human psyche's motivation apparatus,
namely that of socialisation.

Rome wasn't built in a day, and although it was, like the pyramids, largely
built with slave and/or indentured labour, it was built by more than one
egocentric old man determined to prove to himself that he is better than
his Dad, or better than he thought his Dad thought he was.

There are examples of non-profit collaborations such as Gnu, Creative
Commons, and the Open CourseWare initiative.  Although the latter is mainly
a marketing channel, it also distributes information freely; one of very
few examples of the trickle-down effect actually happening.

So no, there doesn't have to be a strong financial force, merely a strong
sociality one, or at least a recognition that many hands make light work
and a willingness the share the glory.

MCTS seems to be very good at small-scale fighting, whereas CNN might be
better-suited to fuseki.  I'm sure it hasn't escaped your notice that 19x19
is 4 times 9x9, but borders of teacups overlap, so a flitting-around fovea
is needed rather than a stationary one, and that requires a CEO to tell it
where to flit.  Or, rather, to tell them where to flit, if there were an
internetworked army of foveas, each doing his own local reconnaisance and
reporting back to HQ.

That CEO, like all CEOs, can make the big decisions, but having a head no
smarter than a toilet-cleaner's or rice-paddy plougher's, it can only do so
much, so it needs to be supported by a cabinet of consultants, each of whom
has its own set of information filters and labour force, to offer the CEO a
small set (7 plus or minus 2) of simple choices.  In the real world, the
Sir Humphreys always ensure that their Minister makes the choice they want
him to make, but in the mind of a machine, rational objective globally
beneficial decisions are theoretically possible.

This message is only for those who haven't lost the idealism of youth, as
old dogs don't like new tricks and more often than not would would rather
shoot the messenger than contemplate the message.  It might happen in
academia, if ITers ever learn to follow the example of their medical
colleagues, whose lists of authors are usually longer than the substantive
content of their papers.

How could it happen?  Don't ask me - i'm a Steppenwolf.  Besides, i am far
too busy with much more important things like smelling roses, so i don't
have the time.
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Re: [Computer-go] I would like people to play with correct handicap to get a more reliable rating

[djhbrown .]

.
whereas the majority of teenage kgsers i encounter suffer from
hyperhubris amongst a plethora of other sociopathological handicaps,
mathematically, it ought not to matter a whit to a bot's own
self-esteem when the witless up themselves against it because the kgs
ranking algorithm surely ought to either take rank aberrations into
account or ignore delusionally-handicapped-game results because they
don't just do it against you, they do it against everybody.

but in any case, how reliable is poking a stick around in the dark anyway?

PS  Whereas it is true that a camel is a horse that was designed by a
committee, why on earth don't you guys stop trying to get one over
each other in the kgs playground and start working as a team?  For
example, DCNNigo plays a very respectable opening but falls apart in
the yose, so a different technique is required for that phase of the
game.  If you put your heads together, you might come up with a
multibot that arguably could be considered smart instead of just
lucky.  You should be able to hook up across internet so the many
heads don't all have to be in the same room.  Yonks ago Oliver
Selfridge [1] proposed just such an architecture for an intracranial
artificial intelligence - but you could go intercranial.  Now that
would be an IT worth checking out.
[1] http://sites.sinauer.com/wolfe4e/wa04.02.html
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Re: [Computer-go] copying the human natural processes

[djhbrown .]

i never have, did not, and do not propose biomimicry.

indeed, it seems to me that things are moving in the exact opposite
direction, for of late, most of my opponents across the internet Go board
seem to have adopted AyaBot et al playing styles, and for all i know i am
playing against man-machine hybrids; they certainly have superior tsume-go
abilities to me.  perhaps it is partly because i am inherently weak at
detail that i seek the big picture approach.

in my article on Mogo and Crazy Stone, written 8 years ago, i conclude with
the following:

"Despite Crazy Stone’s late-game epilepsy, it is to his (or, rather,
Remi’s!) credit that both it and its son/father MoGo have knocked the best
of the rest off their perches at the 19x19 game as well as the 9x9 one,
from which Crazy Stone itself only migrated last year. We can expect the
next round of competition to feature many Monte-Carlo method based
competitors.Monte-Carlo or bust!

Looking to the future, it is likely that the remarkable phenomenon known as
Moore’s Law, that computers will become ever-more powerful and ever-more
affordable at the same time, will continue to hold, and that it will not be
long before even our desktop personal computers are as massively parallel
as Deep Blue. Armed with the hardware of Deep Blue and the software of
Monte-Carlo, the next generation of alien intelligences is going to be
powerful indeed - Allez les Deep Bleus!!"
AI is A I, not biomimicry, just as mathematics and intelligence are not
peculiar to H.Sapiens; ants, bees and bacteria use it and have it
respectively too.

That is not to say that AI cannot learn a great deal from cognitive
psychology etc, but you are welcome to ignore basic research.

"I think we have already a good idea of how our brains work (at least while
playing Go)"

indeed?  then you know more than Christoph Koch, because he knows that he
doesn't yet have a good idea about how brains work, which is why studying
the brain is his life's work.

"If you are writing a Go program that attempts to be competitive..."

i think that when you say "you" you mean yourself and David Fotland who
repeatedly has expressed the same view as you.  I am not.  He likens my
writing to trying to reinvent the aeroplane by making its wings flap.  An
ironically bemusing analogy; one day not too far off an NSA dragonfly drone
with 4 flapping wings will be watching your every move, and if you step out
of line it will pop you off just as JFK was popped off when he stepped out
of line by refusing to obey orders.

"It doesn't make sense to complain that people are not writing competitive
programs using techniques that showed poor returns in the past."

another misrepresentation.  the only ones doing the complaining are you and
Fotland because i don't follow the good shepherd.  David has been
congratulated for the success he achieved, and deservedly so,  However,
Many Faces preMC, insofar as i understand it from the few published
descriptions that are retrievable,  has a lot in common with Gnugo but just
about nothing in common with HALy.

btw, Graf and Platzner write: "... abakus was able to solve several
instances of the "two-safe-groups" test-set which is known to be very
difficult for MCTS programs." - can anyone who is into MCTS explain why it
finds such cases difficult?

"do you suppose there are two kinds of people, the curious and the ones
that didn't go extinct?"

i give up.  masochism is not my bag.  i pointed to the water, but you and
just about everyone else with a mouse in their hands obviously prefer
canned fizzy drinks instead.  yes, you are probably right.  HALy is already
dead, and soon so will i be.  btw, Xerox, whose employees repackaged the
analogue PPI tracker-ball of the kind i was introduced to in 1965 (which by
then had already been around for 20+ years, and which is featured in
Bronowski's superb "Ascent of Man" tv series) as a digital mouse, decided
it wasn't worth investing in because they could not see an immediate return
on it.

an old friend turned born-again Christian
​,​
on seeing my videos about the History of God
​,​
​ which explains a few things that had puzzled me for decades,​
  said "don't send me any more of this crap".

​PS Hilary wouldn't have got very far without Tenzing.​
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Re: [Computer-go] where do I start?

[djhbrown .]

.
.
Sometimes - maybe always - a good night's sleep helps one see the picture
more clearly in the morning.  Therefore it is probably a good idea for me
to stop writing emails late at night and shoot my mouth off because i shoot
myself in the foot in the process.  As i did last night.

I need to publicly thank David and Goncalo for browbeating me because the
message has finally got through; for 40 years i have been bashing my head
against the wall up a gum tree down a garden path, because whereas
dumbclucks like me do see the Go board like they see anything else, strong
players don't.  All my nonsense about shapes is just that: nonsense.
That's not the way to win.

I think the penny has dropped and i have discovered the secret - a secret
tens of thousands of others have known for decades - but need to go over it
a bit more in my head first before trying to say what it is.  So that's
where i personally will start.

Where should Genyang start?  I think the best answer i can give is one that
was given to me by a young woman who saw the world so much more clearly
than i: "If it feels good, do it".

In my former job as a teacher of computer science, i strongly felt that it
was a waste of time and sweat and resources for thousands of teachers to
badly reinvent the wheel by writing their own lectures when there was
already so much good stuff on the web
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nc4GIaPT61I=11=PL4y5WtsvtduozO-9oG5nZZI8IPUD6EDif
and i think this may partly be where the angst i displayed in my previous
posting comes from.  But i was forgetting the pleasure that athletes get
from computer olympiads and olympiads in general - indeed, if FIFA were to
apply my reasoning to football, there would be only one team and no
entertainment at all !!

Why do people want to write Go programs?  I think the answer is basically
the same as the reason people play Go or football.  The same reason that
people play Bridge.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HoXgbKmQ4wA=19=PL4y5Wtsvtdurz6BhIIAnhF_0bbPr-edNd

Jim mentioned that a Go game looks a bit like a fractal; yes, it does, and
in some senses it is, in that it starts off as seeds scattered around the
place which grow and fight and die as they compete for space when they
expand, and this may partly explain the attraction of Go to artistic types,
because unlike chess, it does have a kind of "natural look".  Definitely
scope there for artistic interpretation; perhaps one day a musician will
find a way to map Go moves onto musical intervals and create a program that
will play the music of a go game.  Stone connections become chords, jumps
are changes of pitch, etc.
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Re: [Computer-go] impact of AI on Go ... Where / How do i start ?

[djhbrown .]

it rather depends on what you think AI is all about and what you want to
achieve.

there are two kinds of people in the world: those who are curious, and
those who just want to make yet another cloned ticky-tacky mousetrap so
they can compete on the Go playing-field because they're no good at
football or kung-fu or [rest left unsaid].

If you want to write a go-playing program in a hurry, don't waste your time
talking to me; just do what most others do and just follow/copy Mogo/Crazy
Stone, possibly adding a tweak or two of your own, and stick your "look ma,
no hands" robot on a server with all the others.

If instead you would like to participate in a project to build a Go program
that uses hierarchical planning and reasoning, you can talk to me.  You
could start by googling me and reading my papers and the papers of others
that reference mine.  And the ones that don't.  Start with De Groot's
seminal book entitled "Thought and Choice in Chess".  Then read everything
Herbert Simon has ever written.  And Minsky, and and and.

Please be aware that i envisage it would take dozens of programmers dozens
of years for what i have in mind to get anywhere.  At 66, i won't live long
enough to see it happen.  And even after all that effort, although a
program can be written that would be able to tell you what it is thinking
in a way that makes sense to people, it probably wouldn't perform at shodan
level, let alone be as strong as Zen19, let alone a future "Son of Big Blue
+ Watson", which would probably use simple pattern-matching database search
+ MCTS blind random search and/or CNN or, more likely, a novel
variant/synthesis of them on a massively parallel computer.  Zen19's
authors tell me it improved its performance an entire rank by shifting from
a single processor to 4 processors on a 1Gb Ethernet.  Watson has about
30,000 processors on a 100Gb Ethernet i think.

Whichever route you try, you are unlikely to get anywhere non-trivial doing
it on your own, unless you are a Mozart of the keyboard and had produced
impressive programs by the age of 8 years old.  After you reach the ripe
old age of 19, your brain basically stops growing except for a few neurons
in your neocortex to stop you doing thoughtless teenage things; apart from
that, your learning curve is downhill from then on...
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[Computer-go] seeking an algorithm for circumscribing a shape

[djhbrown .]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uPraaAsWYVY=18=PL4y5WtsvtduqNW0AKlSsOdea3Hl1X_v-S

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[Computer-go] When is a group not a group?

[djhbrown .]

"I agree that group strength can't be a single number.  That's why I
classify groups instead.  Each classification is treated differently when
estimating territory, when generating candidate moves, etc.  The territory
counts depend on the strength of the nearby groups."

this touches on an issue which is uppermost in my own mind at this stage.
When is a group not a group?  [answer: when Haylee rips it to shreds!].
Whereas i feel that, when playing, i envisage such a thing as a group, i do
so because i was influenced by the theory of groups embodied in the
Reitman-Wilcox program.  From carefully listening to what Haylee has to
say, it is unclear to me whether she thinks the same way.  I plan to
investigate this more deeply; my video series is not "Brown's Lectures on a
fait-accompli" but rather a kind of freshman video blog, recording
​my trail of exploration as i plod along it at a snail's pace.
​  Episode 14 uploaded:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OonbcgykmMk=14=PL4y5WtsvtduqNW0AKlSsOdea3Hl1X_v-S


"Monte Carlo has a big advantage in that it estimates the probability of
winning the game, rather than my old approach of trying to estimate the
final score."

Personally, i see win probability as a form of score estimation
​ (ie move choice value estimation)​
.

"I guess expert systems really are a dead  end in Go. Too many
contradicting heurestics "

Oh, ye of little faith! :)  It all depends on what you mean by "Expert
System".   Feigenbaum did for ES what Kurzweil is trying to do for Hidden
Markov Models - ie popularise them to grab the attention of bankers.  ESs
did not live up to their over=the-top public press hype and the bankers
became disenchanted at the same time that DARPA pulled the rug from under
AI.  But none of that means it is not a viable line of research.

"The mid-term problem is not mutual contradiction of heuristics because
their careful study can remove the contradictions and establish a hierarchy
of principles. Only the problem of great number of principles to be coded
and maybe of the complexity of time remain."

There's nothing wrong with a bit of
​cognitive dissonance ​
inconsistency; if you don't believe me
​**​
- and most people do
​n't ​
​​
​:) - ask Kurt Godel.

**[eg that the first God invented by mankind was the female Moon​; Jesus is
a memetic descendant of the male Sun, etc
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5lsQUq9EjLA=PL4y5WtsvtduooErlxg7h5dxQ2h2UALN0h=1
]


"I think we way underestimate how much complexity emerges from a single Go
position, much less projecting that complexity forward temporally. "

the complexity of a single position arises directly from its temporally
descendant implications. Ouroboros.

"give the MC strategy another good kick in the pants... to send it the rest
of the way past the best human's ability. If so, that will be tragic as it
means that just like Chess, brute force largely won...again."

far from being tragic, it will be (should be) highly instructive when that
happens, (as i anticipate it will, once an engine with the raw power of
Watson gets onto it), as it will demonstrate that there is more to
intelligence than being able, like Rain Man, to perform prodigious
calculations within a closed-world microdomain like Go.  I recommend
reading anything John McCarthy has to say on this subject.

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[Computer-go] You be the Judge

[djhbrown .]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RKhmyZyRAoE=PL4y5WtsvtduqNW0AKlSsOdea3Hl1X_v-S=12
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[Computer-go] tsume-go perception experiment

[djhbrown .]

Dear G and B,

thank you and Haylee for participating.

i have produced a preliminary video of the experiment:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vVMYMYM7kEM=11=PL4y5WtsvtduqNW0AKlSsOdea3Hl1X_v-S

​i hope you don't mind being presented as a computer-generated voice :)

Please advise whether the cartoon images i derived from your narrative
explanations are adequately representative of the mental images you had
when you performed the experiment.

i received 3 replies to my enquiry, with 3 different perceptions, each of
which i regard as equally meritworthy and informative, even if they lead to
3 different conclusions (something i had not expected to happen).I plan
to make a follow-up video which will discuss how your perceptions and those
of Hajin Lee 3P might be automated, *and the findings of a computer program
tsume-go analysis if anyone can provide one using their own program.*

neuroscientists stick electrodes into monkeys' brains and make MRIs of
human ones to discover how the mind sees, but i think verbal protocols [1]
are equally useful even if they do not permit the investigator to see into
the subconscious of the subject, where most of the information processing
in "blink" fast perception [2,3] takes place.​

As [4] notes, "There is empirical evidence that Go masters come up with
the solutions without any discursive thinking, their eyes fixate on the
vital point under 300 milliseconds [9]. Some sort high-level pattern
matching is done by the master players  [9] Atsushi Yoshikawa and
Yasuki Saito. Perception in tsumego under 4 seconds time pressure. In
Proceedings of the eighteenth annual conference of the Cognitive Science
Society, page 868, 1996."

1. https://psy.fsu.edu/faculty/ericsson/ericsson.proto.thnk.html
2. Malcolm Gladwell  Blink .
3.  Daniel Khaneman.  Thinking Fast and Thinking Slow

.
4.  Attila Egri-Nagy
http://ami.ektf.hu/uploads/papers/finalpdf/AMI_38_from137to145.pdf
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[Computer-go] Maximum Frequency method

[djhbrown .]

thank you for sharing the paper.

"the Maximum Frequency method is based on the
maximization of the difference between the expected reward of
the optimal move and that of others"

intuitively it feels that biasing random search towards the optimal route
would yield reduced failure rates, yet it does seem to depend on knowing
what the optimal route is beforehand.

if i knew the optimal route to get from A to B, i wouldn't bother doing a
random search, but just follow it.

"This property [“bias in suboptimal moves”] means that the impact of
missing the optimal move is much greater for one player than it is for the
opponent."

i find this conclusion puzzling because Go is a zero-sum game, so what is
good for one side is equally bad for the other, not variably so.  I have
not checked the statistical inference calculations to see whether there is
an error in them.
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[Computer-go] open bank

[djhbrown .]

chitchat satisfies the human desire for self-expression and/or self
aggrandisement, but it usually doesn't much help the enquiring student​ of
science, unless you're chatting with Minsky or Chomsky.

there are 1001 publishers around, all of whom demand money for
information.  and one or two that don't, as they make their revenues from
bundling advertisers' spam into whatever they give you for free.

it is tedious to have to trawl through kilograms of garbage, only to find
that the diamond you are looking for is blocked by a guard demanding money
or signup for more circular spam.

there are a few sources of open actual information, and authors sometimes
choose one or another as their vehicle.

YouTube does it for movies, would someone like to do it for papers about Go
programming?  It could simply be a list of URLs that contain information
instead of the usual metainformation.

Here's a start:

1999 Static analysis of life and death in the game of Go. Ken Chen, Zhixing
Chen. https://webdocs.cs.ualberta.ca/~games/go/seminar/2002/020703/ld.pdf

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[Computer-go] re Static analysis of life and death in the game of Go. Ken Chen, Zhixing Chen.

[djhbrown .]

it feels unintuitive to map the poetic notion of half an eye onto the
arithmetical value 1/2.  half eyes are only useful if each side of the half
eye also has a whole eye, so instead of thinking about half-eyes and doing
sums with them, a computer could have the concepts of "shared eye" and
"false eye".  or am i missing something?

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[Computer-go] re Mental Imagery

[djhbrown .]

> Many Faces of Go gives reasons for its moves after fact.  It reasons about
> the position using go proverbs, life and death analysis, group strength and
> connection information, etc.  If you have a copy, you can ask it to explain
> its reasons for making a move.
>

Many Faces of Go is a proprietary program; is there a description of how it
works and/or some samples of its type of explanation in the academic
literature or elsewhere in the public domain?

This approach has been explored thoroughly and it doesn’t work.
>

I will address this issue in a future video.

Do have a plan to write some code or this just philosophy?
>

i am starting out on step 1 of an iterative design process and posting to
this forum in the hope of exchanging scientific/engineering ideas.  i
started programming in 1965;  on finishing my PhD on machine learning in
1975, i was happy to thereafter leave the taxing work of producing code to
younger and more energetic minds.


For this to work, group strength and connection status must be a) assessed
> meaningfully and b) applied meaningfully within a broader conceptual
> framework.
>

agreed

What were your definitions for group strength and connection status, for
> what purposes did you use them and how did you apply them?
>

Many years ago, John McCarthy (who coined the phrase "Artificial
Intelligence") complained that there were too many AI papers of the "look,
Ma, no hands!" type.  He is one of my gurus, and i agree with him.  i am
not presenting a "fait accompli"; i am starting out on step 1 of an
iterative design process and posting to this forum in the hope of
exchanging scientific/engineering ideas.

my videos are intended to be thought-provoking to a general audience
​,​
  to interest newcomers in Go
​, and to prompt an exchange of ideas on software representation models​
; if they fail to
​catch your imagination, please do not watch them and ignore my postings.
if you wish me to be excised from this listserv, you can petition its
moderator.

i asked three strong players to glance at "what do you see?" for a couple
of seconds and share their thoughts on what they saw with me; i had thought
it was a simple situation to use as an initial experiment but was surprised
to find that they had three different views of the position and three
different forecasts (dead, probably ko, and seki).  it would be interesting
to see what a strong program makes of it.  given that it is less than 9x9
in scope, i would expect a Monte-Carlo player to be able to find a good
solution.  if more than one program owner tries it, they could compare
notes.
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[Computer-go] Do you see?

[djhbrown .]

> "When I click on a youtube video, I don't expect much. But I do expect to
> be at least marginally entertained"
>

In ancient Rome, the plebeia (commoners) were ruled by a government
comprising an Emperor and a Senate.  Plebs had no say in how society
functioned, but they were allowed to allowed to express themselves by
writing on "graffiti walls".  YouTube is today's graffiti wall - it is a
peer-reviewed medium for communication.  Peers make their reviews by adding
comments.  The video which did not entertain you was not put there to
entertain you; instead, it asked for your help, to tell me and anyone else
who is curious about how minds perceive the world before them, by way of
adding a comment.  As this clearly was not self-evident, i have amended the
video by adding a description.  So thank you for your feedback.

"Why not implement your ideas as a computer program?"
>

seven years ago i was given five years to live.  for me, life is too short
to waste it by following in the footsteps of Sisyphus.  i am writing to
this listserv hoping to sow a seed of an idea that others could take up and
develop in the future, and hoping to engage in constructive dialogue -
which would include technical criticism - to help me crystallise and refine
my fundamental premiss, which was outlined in print many years ago [1].
Since that time, i had been unable to pursue it as i had to make a living
doing whatever work i could get.  Now i am retired, i have the luxury of
indulging my curiosity once more, but neither the time nor the skills to
complete the task alone.
[1] Brown, DJH:  Hierarchical Reasoning and the Game of Go. Proc Sixth
International Joint Conference on Artificial Intelligence, Tokyo, 114-116,
1979.

*Google Books copy :
https://books.google.com.au/books?id=VD_tTdC697cC=PA116=PA116=AISB+Newsletter+32,+14-17,+1978.=bl=wVbxiaG66D=qHjMTNMkB2qXJ3bj8aBfJmEpnMM=en=X=0CB4Q6AEwAGoVChMIhPrmorSLxgIVizK8Ch24xwCf#v=onepage=AISB

Newsletter 32, 14-17, 1978.=false*

"the implementation task is huge (man-years)"
>

i would guess that it would require man-decades, if not centuries.  And
whereas a camel is a horse that was designed by a committee, many hands
make light work, as the Chinese restauranteur demonstrated to his clientele
during a power cut.

"> the "stupid" monte carlo works so much better."
>

this observation by David Fotland is empirically valid insofar as it
pertains to extant artifacts, but it refers to the past (ie up to now).
The future is still open.  i will address the issue in a future video,
which will include a discussion of what constitutes intelligence, whether
artificial or natural.  In the meantime, i can share with you my thoughts
of a few years ago on the subject:

*Monte-Carlo Alien Intelligence Conquers Amsterdam*

https://sites.google.com/site/djhbrown2/MoGoCrazyStone.doc
Lastly, i have been unable to find any substantive information on how Zen19
works; i suppose that programming Go has become a Sumo wrestling match
rather than a cooperative enterprise, and authors are keeping their trade
secrets secret.  If anyone has any inside information, i would be intrigued
to know how Zen has managed to climb that one rank higher than any other,
especially as the higher you go, the harder it gets.
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[Computer-go] what do you (or does your computer) see?

[djhbrown .]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IoO7Nhlf_k4=PL4y5WtsvtduqNW0AKlSsOdea3Hl1X_v-S=10

Please reply by posting a comment on YouTube
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[Computer-go] re comments on Life and Death

[djhbrown .]

>
> Plans, evaluation functions, ect failed for over 20 years to produce true
> (amateur) dan level programs.
>

True.  However, the failure of a few efforts to make progress in a
direction does not imply that the direction is a dead end.  I will be
addressing this issue in a future video in the series.

Also, you cannot give reasons for moves "after the fact" if reason wasn't
> used to obtain the selected move in the first place.
>

Exactly so.  As stated in "Life and Death", the principal research
objective of HALy is for it to be able to formulate and explain its
reasons.  I feel that the domain of Go is a useful microworld for
experimenting with perception and reasoning representations.

Current research in volition and conscious choice
> indicates that conscious choice is actually an after the fact explanation
> of decisions based on unconscious processes.
>

Yes indeed.  This suggests that science is just beginning to discover that
philosophical intuitions about consciousness based on no experimentation at
all are mere speculations.

I think you forgot to suggest which pharmaceuticals, legal or otherwise, to
> be using while watching this. Without said pharmacological assistance, that
> video doesn't make a bit of sense to me.
>

I am unaware of any chemicals that could viably substitute for doing a bit
of homework.  I would be happy to explain any specific issues outside the
domain of computer go that you do not understand if you raise them in a
YouTube comment.  I am aware that the video touches on several myths whose
historical origins and current implications are not common knowledge.
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[Computer-go] Life and Death

[djhbrown .]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=opOAFYutILU=8=PL4y5WtsvtduqNW0AKlSsOdea3Hl1X_v-S

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[Computer-go] Programme NAO to play Go and talk about it

[djhbrown .]

tor/5/redir/version/2.0/mediaset/audio-nondrm-download/proto/http/vpid/p02qjlfr.mp3>

djh brown

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[Computer-go] Group Strength (Part 1)

[djhbrown .]

​https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9X8a-SoasFgindex=6list=PL4y5WtsvtduqNW0AKlSsOdea3Hl1X_v-S

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Re: [Computer-go] how do I start building a Computer Go AI?

[djhbrown .]

your question contains its answer:

to build a computer Go AI, you need to learn
1. computer
2. Go
3.  AI

you have made good progress on 2; now you need to learn 1 and 3.

one way to do this is to take a college course, as you propose to do.
it is unlikely you can put 1, 2 and 3 together before you enrol,
unless you are like Mozart.

i would recommend reading the links in this to get a taste of what the
mountain you want to climb looks like:
http://www.citeulike.org/group/5884/library/order/year,desc,

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Re: [Computer-go] Mental Imagery in Go - playlist

[djhbrown .]

to err, or not to err...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=08b0iw3qiAIindex=5list=PL4y5WtsvtduqNW0AKlSsOdea3Hl1X_v-S
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Re: [Computer-go] Mental Imagery in Go - playlist

[djhbrown .]

introducing... *HALy*

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UZa2cklrj20index=4list=PL4y5WtsvtduqNW0AKlSsOdea3Hl1X_v-S



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Re: [Computer-go] Mental Imagery in Go - playlist

[djhbrown .]

, that is something
starts going in one direction, it will continue to go on in that same
direction.  This is the simplest kind of mathematical reasoning, called
linear extrapolation.

Christiano Ronaldo and Lionel Messi are modern masters of the feint on the
football field, who learned their dancing skills by following in the
footsteps of great dribblers of the past like George Best and Zinedine
Zidane.

Kangaroos are masters of the feint too, which presumably they learned
through evolution to escape dingo attacks.  Unfortunately for the
kangaroos, there is an new animal on the block that is much more dangerous
to them than the dingo.  It's the motor car.   Motor car drivers don't have
brains like dingos, so they swerve to avoid a kangaroo that hops into the
road (or is sleeping on it because the road is a touch warmer than the soil
of the desert).  The motor car driver swerves in the opposite direction to
the kangaroos feint, thereby crashing into it as the kangaroo abruptly
changes direction, right into the path of the swerving car.  So the best
way to avoid hitting a kangaroo on the road at night is to aim straight at
it, and it will dodge out of your way.

The feint is often useful in Go too, in the form of a sacrifice move, which
attracts the attention of the opponent, and whilst he is busy capturing it,
you can build strength in the other direction for use later on.  The
crosscut is an example of the feint, which encourages the opp to busy
himself on one side whilst you build some shape on the other side, making
it a useful tactic for invading a moyo.

HALy's basic strategy is KISS, which stands for Keep It Simple, Stupid!

more to come







On 4 August 2015 at 10:33, djhbrown . djhbr...@gmail.com wrote:

 ​Thanks for the link to the CMU CNN paper, Steven, which ​was very
 interesting.  I noted with some pleasure that they included a fovea stream
 - although maybe that is a bit of a misnomer, as whereas animal foveas roam
 around the image, building (i think) a symbolic structural description of
 the picture, theirs was fixed in the middle.

 I wonder whether a roaming fovea CNN could be a successful group
 connectedness classifier?  I can envisage the fovea being moved around by
 a higher-level routine that uses a symbolic description of the game
 situation to identify which areas/groups it wants it to investigate.

 Incidentally, i'm unconvinced that including an age of stone feature is
 valuable, because although the future is dynamic, the past is set in stone
 (sic);  Go teachers sometimes talk about tewari analysis to demonstrate
 when an old stone becomes inefficiently placed by a certain line of play.

 As to romantic notions of human superiority, i personally feel that such
 opinions are not so much romantic as hubristic - or perhaps paranoid!
 However, i have to admit that in 1979 i was a false prophet when i claimed
 the brute-force approach is a no-hoper for Go, even if computers become a
 hundred times more powerful than they are now [Brown, D and S. Dowsey,
 S. The Challenge of Go. *New Scientist* 81, 303-305, 1979.].  Back in
 those days, i never imagined that something so blind as Monte-Carlo would
 become more perceptive than even my weak eye, let alone being able to
 defeat a pro (albeit with a 5-stone handicap), as Zen just did on KGS.

 By the way, i've long since lost my paper copy of my paper; you have
 access to an academic library - would you be able to retrieve and scan a
 copy of it, just for my nostalgia?



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Re: [Computer-go] Mental Imagery in Go - playlist

[djhbrown .]

​Thanks for the link to the CMU CNN paper, Steven, which ​was very
interesting.  I noted with some pleasure that they included a fovea stream
- although maybe that is a bit of a misnomer, as whereas animal foveas roam
around the image, building (i think) a symbolic structural description of
the picture, theirs was fixed in the middle.

I wonder whether a roaming fovea CNN could be a successful group
connectedness classifier?  I can envisage the fovea being moved around by
a higher-level routine that uses a symbolic description of the game
situation to identify which areas/groups it wants it to investigate.

Incidentally, i'm unconvinced that including an age of stone feature is
valuable, because although the future is dynamic, the past is set in stone
(sic);  Go teachers sometimes talk about tewari analysis to demonstrate
when an old stone becomes inefficiently placed by a certain line of play.

As to romantic notions of human superiority, i personally feel that such
opinions are not so much romantic as hubristic - or perhaps paranoid!
However, i have to admit that in 1979 i was a false prophet when i claimed
the brute-force approach is a no-hoper for Go, even if computers become a
hundred times more powerful than they are now [Brown, D and S. Dowsey, S.
The Challenge of Go. *New Scientist* 81, 303-305, 1979.].  Back in those
days, i never imagined that something so blind as Monte-Carlo would become
more perceptive than even my weak eye, let alone being able to defeat a pro
(albeit with a 5-stone handicap), as Zen just did on KGS.

By the way, i've long since lost my paper copy of my paper; you have access
to an academic library - would you be able to retrieve and scan a copy of
it, just for my nostalgia?



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[Computer-go] Mental Imagery in Go - playlist

[djhbrown .]

Thanks for the replies to my first message; i looked at the links you
supplied and comment on them later in this email.

I noticed that Google does not show you the playlist when you look at
episode 1 of the series (of currently 3 videos), so you may have missed the
second two episodes which are more significant than the first.  Here is a
link to the playlist:

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL4y5WtsvtduqNW0AKlSsOdea3Hl1X_v-S

episode 2 introduces mental images and episode 3 is a conversation between
Hajin Lee and me about her thoughts on a couple of moves early in one of
her games.  It includes my first attempt at picturing her thoughts, both
as symbolic information structures and as paint overlays on the game board.

My hope is that the former might one day become the basis of symbolic
generic heuristic rules that could be used to generate and evaluate move
candidates and the latter could evolve into useful instructional materials
for people learning the game - so that they can, so to speak, look through
the eyes of an expert like Hajin.

To these ends, i need the assistance of people with better skills than me
at (a) drawing pictures, (b) software and (c) Go.  I think that programming
is like gymnastics - best done by the young, with their abundance of
enthusiasm and energy.  I enjoyed programming 50 years ago, but i'm too old
in the tooth now to burn midnight oil.

Now to your replies:

Folkert: Stop is a good start but as you already know, there's a long way
to go yet :)

Steven:  I expect there is a future for CNN's in recognising static images,
but my gut feel is that a position in a Go game is more like one frame of a
movie; as such, it requires a technology that can interpret dynamic images
- maybe work being done in automatous car driving can contribute something
useful to Go playing?  Nevertheless, I was surprised by the many humanlike
moves of DCNNigo on KGS (until it revealed its brittleness).  To be sure,
drawing upon the moves of experts is one way of gaining expertise, but my
feeling is that one should try to abstract the position - to generalise
from the examples - so that general knowledge can be formed and applied to
novel situations.  It may be that a CNN arguably does do some kind of
generalisation - but can it, for example, characterise something as basic
as the waist of a keima?

Ingo:  Tanja may be the kind of artist who could produce nice drawings of
Hajin's mental images, perhaps based on my own crude sketches?  It would be
unpaid work though...  I liked Fuego's and Jonathan's territory pictures,
which reminded me of Zobrist's early work on computing influence.  [Albert
Zobrist (*1969*). *A Model of Visual Organisation for the Game of Go*.
Proceedings of the Spring Joint Computer Conference, Vol. 34, pp. 103-112.]
However, whereas being able to picture influence and territory is one of my
objectives, i want to try to picture the richness of what Hajin (aka
Haylee) sees rather than the result of a primitive computation.  For
example, at 10:24 in episode 3, she points out that when black is on J4
instead of K4, there is an opening in black's lower side for white to
invade.  This tiny gap makes all the difference to the dynamic meaning of
the position a few moves prior (ie whether it is sensible for white to
approach Q3 at Q5).

One of the major influences on my own thinking about Go programming is the
seminal work Thought and Choice in Chess by Adriaan de Groot  which i
reckon is well worth a read by anyone interested in programming Go
https://books.google.com.au/books?id=b2G1CRfNqFYCpg=PA99

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[Computer-go] Fwd: mental imagery in Go

[djhbrown .]

i'm looking for people with expertise in
​art, ​
computer graphics
​,​
and/or AI software to help me make a video series about mental imagery in
Go, partly with a view to expressing mental images in the form of heuristic
rules that a program could use to generate and evaluate candidate moves.

any takers?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Om_CVAevU8o

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