Re: [computer-go] Joseki Book
Stefan Kaitschick wrote: One day, when MCTS becomes more refined, bots will stop overestimating the value of influence. Why should they? Because most human players are overestimating the value of early territory? -- robert jasiek ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] Joseki Book
True, but at the moment we're just interested in getting Orego to play ANY joseki, i.e., a reasonable move in some corner, rather than a disastrous tenuki. Finding the "right" joseki will be future work. (Orego also has a small fuseki book, which we're working to expand.) On an intermediate level, a joseki that is good for a professional is not necessarily so good for a kyu player. Professionals are better than weak players at using thickness, whereas solid territory is worth much the same to both. So if your objective is for Orego to become 1-dan, you should tend to prefer josekis which give low solid territorial positions, leaving the hard-to-use outer influence for its opponents. Good advice! Peter Drake By playing/watching bots on kgs I've noticed a bot specific weakness in applying OB on 19*19. There is a consistency gap from OB to post-OB. And ironically it's worse for simple and safe joseki than for more extravagant, influence-oriented ones. When "pure" MCTS kicks in, the bot will go for what remains of center influence, trampling on his own low positions. Alleviating this problem is even more important than direction of play or than the local quality of the move. For example, MFoG likes to play keima boshi on a low hoshi kakari, even when it doesn't have any extensions. This is a wise choice, considering current post-OB play. One day, when MCTS becomes more refined, bots will stop overestimating the value of influence. But until then, it is better to use an OB that puts the bot in a position that it likes, than in a position that is "objectively" good. Stefan ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
RE: [computer-go] Joseki Book
Two ply (typo) was an example. The original program did one ply global search plus local quiescence. Local quiescence for a joseki move was to complete a few sequences. Obviously not ideal, but better than trying to evaluate a position in the middle of a joseki. David > -Original Message- > From: computer-go-boun...@computer-go.org [mailto:computer-go- > boun...@computer-go.org] On Behalf Of Robert Jasiek > Sent: Monday, November 09, 2009 9:38 PM > To: computer-go > Subject: Re: [computer-go] Joseki Book > > David Fotland wrote: > > in a two play global search, an entire joseki sequence would be one ply. > > This works only ALA the programs don't depart from stored josekis, > right? How could they adapt to non-standard global side-conditions while > treating a joseki as fixed one-ply sequence? They must iteratively > broaden their search again, at least locally while embedding the local > stable results in a global judgement context. So pure one ply seems > improper to me, although one might try to start from it using multiple > local pseudo-one-ply regions before combining them by means of a > possibly / hopefully only / rather global (and therefore relatively > thin) search. > > When you say "two play", do you want to stop global search after exactly > two moves? Wouldn't that be an exaggeration? > > -- > robert jasiek > ___ > computer-go mailing list > computer-go@computer-go.org > http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] Joseki Book
David Fotland wrote: in a two play global search, an entire joseki sequence would be one ply. This works only ALA the programs don't depart from stored josekis, right? How could they adapt to non-standard global side-conditions while treating a joseki as fixed one-ply sequence? They must iteratively broaden their search again, at least locally while embedding the local stable results in a global judgement context. So pure one ply seems improper to me, although one might try to start from it using multiple local pseudo-one-ply regions before combining them by means of a possibly / hopefully only / rather global (and therefore relatively thin) search. When you say "two play", do you want to stop global search after exactly two moves? Wouldn't that be an exaggeration? -- robert jasiek ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
RE: [computer-go] Joseki Book
The tradition program did this, because it only did a very shallow global search. So in a two play global search, an entire joseki sequence would be one ply. In the MCTS version, joseki moves get a strong bias, but there is no special handling of sequences. David From: computer-go-boun...@computer-go.org [mailto:computer-go-boun...@computer-go.org] On Behalf Of ? ? Sent: Monday, November 09, 2009 7:54 PM To: computer-go Subject: Re: [computer-go] Joseki Book >From what David Fotland has said, Many Faces will lay out whole josekis as >"single moves" in its searches, which seems like a great way of biasing the >mcts tree early on. On Mon, Nov 9, 2009 at 13:13, Robert Jasiek wrote: Magnus Persson wrote: I think it may make more sense to break down the joseki into common local patterns Patterns are doubtful. Even the best shape can be dead. -- robert jasiek ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] Joseki Book
>From what David Fotland has said, Many Faces will lay out whole josekis as "single moves" in its searches, which seems like a great way of biasing the mcts tree early on. On Mon, Nov 9, 2009 at 13:13, Robert Jasiek wrote: > Magnus Persson wrote: > >> I think it may make more sense to break down the joseki into common local >> patterns >> > > Patterns are doubtful. Even the best shape can be dead. > > -- > robert jasiek > > ___ > computer-go mailing list > computer-go@computer-go.org > http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ > ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] Joseki Book
Magnus Persson wrote: I think it may make more sense to break down the joseki into common local patterns Patterns are doubtful. Even the best shape can be dead. -- robert jasiek ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] Joseki Book
Jessica Mullins wrote: I am wondering what is the best way to build a Joseki Book? Do you mean database? The "best" way depends on your aims. Define aims and we can look for answers more easily. There are very different possible ways of compiling databases. Of course you know the sorting by intersection. To get an idea of a complementary approach, read my book JOSEKI / Volume 1: FUNDAMENTALS http://home.snafu.de/jasiek/Joseki.html which classifies by move types, meanings of stones, and development directions. Volumes 2 and 3 will provide yet further classifications - among them strategic concepts and strategic decisions. So what do you want? Simply find already known josekis quickly? Then enter them all and sorting by coordinates would do. However, if you want to describe decision making based on reasoning for an expert system, then a functional approach like mine is appropriate. Partial works in that direction you can find elsewhere. For a pretty complete treatment (which you would need for a decent database), you might need to be patient some more months until I can finish the other volumes. -- robert jasiek ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] Joseki Book
Quoting terry mcintyre : I don't knwo how to build such a book, but "Kogo's Joseki dictionnary" is a huge .sgf file containging joseki + trick moves and punishment. Maybe it can be parsed to extract only joskis. The problem with josekis are that most of the moves in them are not commented at all, and there are many seemingly reasonable alternatives moves that has to be punished. And just storing one counter move is not enough. And of course the whole board position is most important when a joseki breaks down because of a mistake. What I am trying to say that in order to help a weak program playing well whatever the opponent plays the joseki dictionary has to be enormous. The whole idea behind a joseki is that super strong players have been thinking about what may be playable or not and the the sequence we find in book is just the tip of the iceberg. I think it may make more sense to break down the joseki into common local patterns and let for example MCTS search among those local patterns, sometime reproducing josekis sometimes not. I think someone here wrote long ago that larger patterns do not improve at all on small pattern of some size. A joseki dictionary can be seen as using very large patterns. -Magnus -- Magnus Persson Berlin, Germany ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] Joseki Book
From: Alain Baeckeroot Le 09/11/2009 à 08:04, Jessica Mullins a écrit : > > Hi, > > I am wondering what is the best way to build a Joseki Book? I am a student at > Lewis & Clark College and am working with Professor Peter Drake to build a > Joseki Book for the program Orego. > > Right now I am extracting moves from professor players and saving those into a > database. Then if during game play a position is contained in the database, > play the response move like the professional. I am just wondering what other > people have done to build a Joseki Book, or if anyone knows of any papers that > might be helpful. > I don't knwo how to build such a book, but "Kogo's Joseki dictionnary" is a huge .sgf file containging joseki + trick moves and punishment. Maybe it can be parsed to extract only joskis. I have been told by stronger players that Kogo, while a useful starting point, needs to be supplemented with newer lines of play. Regarding automatic extraction of joseki from pro games - the one pitfall I see is that you'll only discover the surface of a much deeper tree of moves which don't appear in pro games - how best to respond to non-joseki plays. A move is "joseki" because sound refutations to non-joseki plays exist, but those refutations can be subtle; a characteristic of a "trick play" is that the refutation is difficult for weaker players. ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [SPAM] Re: [computer-go] Joseki Book
One approach might be to combine some well-known joseki and fuseki books with such books as "100 tips for Amateur Players", which explain some of the pitfalls, tricks, and traps behind popular joseki. Nihon Kiin publishes some detailed and thorough joseki books. Slate and Shell published a series of workbooks by Yilun Yang; one of those suggests a few guidelines for "when to tenuki", that is, when it is ok for one to ignore an approach move and play elsewhere. These might help guide a program to know when to stay on the main line of a joseki, and when to switch to another important point. There is a proverb, "study joseki, lose two stones.(in strength)" I don't know if anybody has used MCTS to blend local joseki knowledge with strategic knowledge to determine "which joseki is most appropriate"; that might be an interesting line of approach. If you store the joseki as a tree, it might make sense to expand not just one, but the several main lines in the tree, then compare their merits. One might even expand the "trick play" lines. I once was told by a Japanese Go professional that he was given two very strict commands when he began studying as an insei. The first was, never, ever study joseki. The second was, never ever play his father. ( who was a 3 P professional ). ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] Joseki Book
On Nov 9, 2009, at 2:39 AM, Nick Wedd wrote: On a broader level - it depends what you are trying to do. If you want Orego to play well in the long term, getting it to play good moves (what a professional would acknowledge as good) in the josekis must be a good thing. But there is the more difficult question of how to get the josekis in the four corners to relate to one another. A move can be good in the context of the local corner but bad in the context of the whole game. Dealing with this is, I think, difficult. True, but at the moment we're just interested in getting Orego to play ANY joseki, i.e., a reasonable move in some corner, rather than a disastrous tenuki. Finding the "right" joseki will be future work. (Orego also has a small fuseki book, which we're working to expand.) On an intermediate level, a joseki that is good for a professional is not necessarily so good for a kyu player. Professionals are better than weak players at using thickness, whereas solid territory is worth much the same to both. So if your objective is for Orego to become 1-dan, you should tend to prefer josekis which give low solid territorial positions, leaving the hard-to-use outer influence for its opponents. Good advice! We have, of course, linked goals: we want to make the program stronger, but we also want to discover techniques that might be relevant to problems other than Go; thus the focus on automatically extracting joseki. Peter Drake http://www.lclark.edu/~drake/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] Joseki Book
On Mon, Nov 09, 2009 at 02:46:11PM +0100, Alain Baeckeroot wrote: > Le 09/11/2009 à 08:04, Jessica Mullins a écrit : > > > > Hi, > > > > I am wondering what is the best way to build a Joseki Book? I am a student > > at > > Lewis & Clark College and am working with Professor Peter Drake to build a > > Joseki Book for the program Orego. > > > > Right now I am extracting moves from professor players and saving those > > into a > > database. Then if during game play a position is contained in the database, > > play the response move like the professional. I am just wondering what other > > people have done to build a Joseki Book, or if anyone knows of any papers > > that > > might be helpful. > > > > I don't knwo how to build such a book, but > "Kogo's Joseki dictionnary" is a huge .sgf file containging joseki + trick > moves and punishment. Maybe it can be parsed to extract only joskis. It has "* GOOD VARIATION *" and "* BAD VARIATION *" marks in some branches, I think you should get a pretty good coveraged by just taking these branches into consideration. But for something basic, I think re-using Gnugo database would be easiest. The other extreme is automatic pattern extraction from professional games database, either by extracting actual general patterns (see Remi Colulom's seminal paper) or by attempting to isolate only joseki sequences (a way to define a joseki sequence could be something like: subsequence of a game starting in an empty corner and with each move in distance <=2 of some previous joseki move, terminated as soon as a move appears that could either be part of two joseki sequences or appears in distance 3<=x<=5 of the joseki stones). -- Petr "Pasky" Baudis A lot of people have my books on their bookshelves. That's the problem, they need to read them. -- Don Knuth ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] Joseki Book
Le 09/11/2009 à 08:04, Jessica Mullins a écrit : > > Hi, > > I am wondering what is the best way to build a Joseki Book? I am a student at > Lewis & Clark College and am working with Professor Peter Drake to build a > Joseki Book for the program Orego. > > Right now I am extracting moves from professor players and saving those into a > database. Then if during game play a position is contained in the database, > play the response move like the professional. I am just wondering what other > people have done to build a Joseki Book, or if anyone knows of any papers that > might be helpful. > I don't knwo how to build such a book, but "Kogo's Joseki dictionnary" is a huge .sgf file containging joseki + trick moves and punishment. Maybe it can be parsed to extract only joskis. Gnugo includes a joseki db, with tags (joseki, hamete ...) so maybe it can be used more easily. my 2 cents. Alain ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [SPAM] Re: [computer-go] Joseki Book
you could always take a joseki dictionary and build the trees by hand, if you feel that you're strong enough to work out the most common variations for the most common opening situations. s. 2009/11/9 Olivier Teytaud : > There is a paper about that in > http://hal.inria.fr/inria-00369783/en/ > and Tristan Cazenave published something around that also. > (these two works are about the automatic building of opening book in > self-play) > See also the references in the PDF above. > Best regards, > Olivier > >> >> Only papers I can recall are from seventies (assuming you mean academic >> papers) from Wilcoxx. I may have electrical copies. Not sure though. I >> managed to find some of them from ACM site. >> >> That paper described position based approach where each and every stage >> was stored into datastructure, kinda like huge pattern matching library. Was >> called lenses if I remember correctly. More common way is store joseki moves >> as a tree. >> >> Biggest issue is always hos key in all those variations. >> >> Petri >> >> 2009/11/9 Jessica Mullins >>> >>> Hi, >>> >>> I am wondering what is the best way to build a Joseki Book? I am a >>> student at >>> Lewis & Clark College and am working with Professor Peter Drake to build >>> a >>> Joseki Book for the program Orego.sed aproach i.e each state of joske >>> >>> Right now I am extracting moves from professor players and saving those >>> into a >>> database. Then if during game play a position is contained in the >>> database, >>> play the response move like the professional. I am just wondering what >>> other >>> people have done to build a Joseki Book, or if anyone knows of any papers >>> that >>> might be helpful. >>> >>> Thank you, >>> Jessica Mullins >>> Lewis & Clark College '10 >>> >>> >>> ___ >>> computer-go mailing list >>> computer-go@computer-go.org >>> http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ >> >> >> ___ >> computer-go mailing list >> computer-go@computer-go.org >> http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ > > > > -- > = > Olivier Teytaud (TAO-inria) olivier.teyt...@inria.fr > Tel (33)169154231 / Fax (33)169156586 > Equipe TAO (Inria-Futurs), LRI, UMR 8623(CNRS - Universite Paris-Sud), > bat 490 Universite Paris-Sud 91405 Orsay Cedex France > (one of the 56.5 % of french who did not vote for Sarkozy in 2007) > > > > ___ > computer-go mailing list > computer-go@computer-go.org > http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ > ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] Joseki Book
In message <1257750292.4af7bf140b...@webmail.lclark.edu>, Jessica Mullins writes Hi, I am wondering what is the best way to build a Joseki Book? I am a student at Lewis & Clark College and am working with Professor Peter Drake to build a Joseki Book for the program Orego. Right now I am extracting moves from professor players and saving those into a database. Then if during game play a position is contained in the database, play the response move like the professional. I am just wondering what other people have done to build a Joseki Book, or if anyone knows of any papers that might be helpful. A simpler approach might be to find a free resource which has already done the extraction and built a tree from it, and copy that. On a broader level - it depends what you are trying to do. If you want Orego to play well in the long term, getting it to play good moves (what a professional would acknowledge as good) in the josekis must be a good thing. But there is the more difficult question of how to get the josekis in the four corners to relate to one another. A move can be good in the context of the local corner but bad in the context of the whole game. Dealing with this is, I think, difficult. Another approach is highly specific and short-term. Suppose you want to be able to beat a particular opponent, MFoG say. Then you can study MFoG's recent games, with the help of a strong player, and find positions where, just out of its joseki book, MFoG makes a bad move. Then you can tune Orego to play such josekis, and to follow up MFoG's bad move by knowing how to punish it. (I don't recommend this approach.) On an intermediate level, a joseki that is good for a professional is not necessarily so good for a kyu player. Professionals are better than weak players at using thickness, whereas solid territory is worth much the same to both. So if your objective is for Orego to become 1-dan, you should tend to prefer josekis which give low solid territorial positions, leaving the hard-to-use outer influence for its opponents. Nick -- Nick Weddn...@maproom.co.uk ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [SPAM] Re: [computer-go] Joseki Book
There is a paper about that in http://hal.inria.fr/inria-00369783/en/ and Tristan Cazenave published something around that also. (these two works are about the automatic building of opening book in self-play) See also the references in the PDF above. Best regards, Olivier > Only papers I can recall are from seventies (assuming you mean academic > papers) from Wilcoxx. I may have electrical copies. Not sure though. I > managed to find some of them from ACM site. > > That paper described position based approach where each and every stage > was stored into datastructure, kinda like huge pattern matching library. Was > called lenses if I remember correctly. More common way is store joseki moves > as a tree. > > Biggest issue is always hos key in all those variations. > > Petri > > 2009/11/9 Jessica Mullins > >> Hi, >> >> I am wondering what is the best way to build a Joseki Book? I am a student >> at >> Lewis & Clark College and am working with Professor Peter Drake to build a >> Joseki Book for the program Orego.sed aproach i.e each state of joske >> >> >> Right now I am extracting moves from professor players and saving those >> into a >> database. Then if during game play a position is contained in the >> database, >> play the response move like the professional. I am just wondering what >> other >> people have done to build a Joseki Book, or if anyone knows of any papers >> that >> might be helpful. >> >> Thank you, >> Jessica Mullins >> Lewis & Clark College '10 >> >> >> ___ >> computer-go mailing list >> computer-go@computer-go.org >> http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ >> > > > ___ > computer-go mailing list > computer-go@computer-go.org > http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ > -- = Olivier Teytaud (TAO-inria) olivier.teyt...@inria.fr Tel (33)169154231 / Fax (33)169156586 Equipe TAO (Inria-Futurs), LRI, UMR 8623(CNRS - Universite Paris-Sud), bat 490 Universite Paris-Sud 91405 Orsay Cedex France (one of the 56.5 % of french who did not vote for Sarkozy in 2007) ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] Joseki Book
Only papers I can recall are from seventies (assuming you mean academic papers) from Wilcoxx. I may have electrical copies. Not sure though. I managed to find some of them from ACM site. That paper described position based approach where each and every stage was stored into datastructure, kinda like huge pattern matching library. Was called lenses if I remember correctly. More common way is store joseki moves as a tree. Biggest issue is always hos key in all those variations. Petri 2009/11/9 Jessica Mullins > Hi, > > I am wondering what is the best way to build a Joseki Book? I am a student > at > Lewis & Clark College and am working with Professor Peter Drake to build a > Joseki Book for the program Orego.sed aproach i.e each state of joske > > Right now I am extracting moves from professor players and saving those > into a > database. Then if during game play a position is contained in the database, > play the response move like the professional. I am just wondering what > other > people have done to build a Joseki Book, or if anyone knows of any papers > that > might be helpful. > > Thank you, > Jessica Mullins > Lewis & Clark College '10 > > > ___ > computer-go mailing list > computer-go@computer-go.org > http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ > ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
