Re: [CoTyroneMailingList] Using a researcher

[Jacque Newman via CoTyroneList]

Margaret, I've been searching for Armstrongs, too - Northern Ireland to 
Canada.My bunch ended up in the Halton area (west of Toronto) and includes more 
than a few Samuels and Williams.
Just by chance, is that where your Samuel and William ended up?
Jacquelyn

 

On Monday, December 3, 2018 9:24 PM, Katie Green via CoTyroneList 
 wrote:
 

 Yes, my Armstrongs are Dublin to Quebec. Lots of those Armstrongs in Ireland.
Katie Green
On Dec 3, 2018, at 5:40 PM, Elwyn Soutter via CoTyroneList 
 wrote:

Margaret,  I echo what Boyd has said.   Armstrong is a very common name in 
Ireland.In the 1901 census there are 6122. 545 in Co Tyrone, 6 named Samuel 
and41 named William. The names would have been even more common in the mid 
1800s asthe population was considerably greater then. (It was 8 million in 1841 
and it’sonly 6 million today).  There’s 42 parishes in the county, and 
probably250 – 300 churches. Not all the churches have records back to the mid 
1800s letalone 1811 when William was born, and of those that do, many are not 
on-line.Only the RC records are fairly comprehensively on-line. For all other 
denominationsit’s very patchy. A lot have been copied and are in PRONI, but 
there are somesmall churches where the Minister still has the only copy of the 
records.No-one has copied them at all, and the only way of checking them is to 
contacthim/her. Searching all the various church records for Tyrone is a 
mammoth task.Researchers need to be able to reduce the search by knowing the 
exact denomination(s)of the families they are looking at. And we need some 
reasonably reliableinformation on where they might have lived to keep the 
research withinreasonable bounds. Searching the church records for the whole 
county forArmstrong would be a huge task. But even then, there’s no getting 
away from thefact that the Church of Ireland lost a significant portion of its 
records inthe 1922 fire, and that other denominations didn’t always keep 
records, or ifthey did, they have been lost or damaged. So no certainty of 
success at all.  It’s worth bearing in mind that noteveryone is listed in 
Griffiths. Servants, people lodging with others and folkwith very low value 
properties were all excluded. Labourers who moved aroundregularly to follow 
available work often slipped through the Griffiths clerks net.There are other 
examples. Also it was compiled for Tyrone around 1860, so if afamily had left 
by that year, they won't be in it.  With your Samuel and William, I wouldsearch 
all possible records in Canada, or wherever else they ended up. Marriageand 
death certificates sometimes give places of birth, as well as parentsnames. 
Military records, obituaries, wills etc can all throw up informationabout 
someone’s origins.  Because it’ssuch a common name, to trace William Armstrong 
born c1852, we’d need hismother’s full name, to be sure of finding the right 
family. Presumably you knowthat, though it isn’t in your post.   The 
researcher’s expertise is obviouslyimportant but equally we can’t magic up 
records that don’t exist anymore, and themore accurate your information and the 
narrower the search area, the better thechances of success.   Elwyn 
  From: Boyd Gray via CoTyroneList 
 To: CoTyroneIreland.com Mailing List  
Cc: Boyd Gray 
 Sent: Monday, 3 December 2018, 22:31
 Subject: Re: [CoTyroneMailingList] Using a researcher
  
Hi Margaret,
I am a "researcher" currently working on a project very similar to the one you 
describe.  And after weeks of research, I have not found that magical "smoking 
gun" which you seem to desire.  Thankfully, I am not being expected to do so 
and I made that clear at the start when I offered to help.  It is as simple as 
this.  If the records do not exist, no amount of research, by anyone other than 
a magic fairy, is ever going to find that definitive link for which you seek.  
In the end, it will all come down to probabilities.  If you have researched 
every birth, marriage and death, every land record from the Tithe Applotment 
Books, through the Griffiths Valuation AND beyond through the Griffiths 
Valuation Revision Books, through their overlap with the censuses and right 
through to their end circa 1930, then you will have sufficient sense of the 
family in that area to know whether they are your folks, to withing 80% or 90% 
degree of certainty.  But you can not expect even a professional researcher to 
magic up a record which does not exist.
Just like you, we found a Christopher Irwin, but not the Christopher Irwin who 
emigrated to Ontario in 1850 because this Christopher Irwin was still in Co 
Tyrone when he died in 1906.  But, we have done enough work on this branch of 
the Irwins, compared to other Irwins from County Tyrone, which was the only 
clue given by Canadian records, to be reasonably sure we have the right Irwins. 
 But no smoking gun.  No family bible.  No record from a list of sources which 
simply does not exist.  No researcher with a magic wand. 

Re: [CoTyroneMailingList] Using a researcher

[Katie Green via CoTyroneList]

Yes, my Armstrongs are Dublin to Quebec. Lots of those Armstrongs in Ireland.

Katie Green
On Dec 3, 2018, at 5:40 PM, Elwyn Soutter via CoTyroneList 
 wrote:

> Margaret,
>  
> I echo what Boyd has said.
>  
> Armstrong is a very common name in Ireland. In the 1901 census there are 
> 6122. 545 in Co Tyrone, 6 named Samuel and 41 named William. The names would 
> have been even more common in the mid 1800s as the population was 
> considerably greater then. (It was 8 million in 1841 and it’s only 6 million 
> today).
>  
> There’s 42 parishes in the county, and probably 250 – 300 churches. Not all 
> the churches have records back to the mid 1800s let alone 1811 when William 
> was born, and of those that do, many are not on-line. Only the RC records are 
> fairly comprehensively on-line. For all other denominations it’s very patchy. 
> A lot have been copied and are in PRONI, but there are some small churches 
> where the Minister still has the only copy of the records. No-one has copied 
> them at all, and the only way of checking them is to contact him/her. 
> Searching all the various church records for Tyrone is a mammoth task. 
> Researchers need to be able to reduce the search by knowing the exact 
> denomination(s) of the families they are looking at. And we need some 
> reasonably reliable information on where they might have lived to keep the 
> research within reasonable bounds. Searching the church records for the whole 
> county for Armstrong would be a huge task. But even then, there’s no getting 
> away from the fact that the Church of Ireland lost a significant portion of 
> its records in the 1922 fire, and that other denominations didn’t always keep 
> records, or if they did, they have been lost or damaged. So no certainty of 
> success at all.
>  
> It’s worth bearing in mind that not everyone is listed in Griffiths. 
> Servants, people lodging with others and folk with very low value properties 
> were all excluded. Labourers who moved around regularly to follow available 
> work often slipped through the Griffiths clerks net. There are other 
> examples. Also it was compiled for Tyrone around 1860, so if a family had 
> left by that year, they won't be in it.
>  
> With your Samuel and William, I would search all possible records in Canada, 
> or wherever else they ended up. Marriage and death certificates sometimes 
> give places of birth, as well as parents names. Military records, obituaries, 
> wills etc can all throw up information about someone’s origins.  Because it’s 
> such a common name, to trace William Armstrong born c1852, we’d need his 
> mother’s full name, to be sure of finding the right family. Presumably you 
> know that, though it isn’t in your post.
>  
> The researcher’s expertise is obviously important but equally we can’t magic 
> up records that don’t exist anymore, and the more accurate your information 
> and the narrower the search area, the better the chances of success.
>  
>  
> Elwyn
> 
> From: Boyd Gray via CoTyroneList 
> To: CoTyroneIreland.com Mailing List  
> Cc: Boyd Gray 
> Sent: Monday, 3 December 2018, 22:31
> Subject: Re: [CoTyroneMailingList] Using a researcher
> 
> Hi Margaret,
> 
> I am a "researcher" currently working on a project very similar to the one 
> you describe.  And after weeks of research, I have not found that magical 
> "smoking gun" which you seem to desire.  Thankfully, I am not being expected 
> to do so and I made that clear at the start when I offered to help.  It is as 
> simple as this.  If the records do not exist, no amount of research, by 
> anyone other than a magic fairy, is ever going to find that definitive link 
> for which you seek.  In the end, it will all come down to probabilities.  If 
> you have researched every birth, marriage and death, every land record from 
> the Tithe Applotment Books, through the Griffiths Valuation AND beyond 
> through the Griffiths Valuation Revision Books, through their overlap with 
> the censuses and right through to their end circa 1930, then you will have 
> sufficient sense of the family in that area to know whether they are your 
> folks, to withing 80% or 90% degree of certainty.  But you can not expect 
> even a professional researcher to magic up a record which does not exist.
> 
> Just like you, we found a Christopher Irwin, but not the Christopher Irwin 
> who emigrated to Ontario in 1850 because this Christopher Irwin was still in 
> Co Tyrone when he died in 1906.  But, we have done enough work on this branch 
> of the Irwins, compared to other Irwins from County Tyrone, which was the 
> only clue given by Canadian records, to be reasonably sure we have the right 
> Irwins.  But no smoking gun.  No family bible.  No record from a list of 
> sources which simply does not exist.  No researcher with a magic wand.  If 
> you need to know what sources are actually available, have a look here at the 
> helpful hints, workshop videos, sources and links:
> 

Re: [CoTyroneMailingList] Using a researcher

[Elwyn Soutter via CoTyroneList]

Margaret,

 I echo what Boyd has said. 

 Armstrong is a very common name in Ireland.In the 1901 census there are 6122. 
545 in Co Tyrone, 6 named Samuel and41 named William. The names would have been 
even more common in the mid 1800s asthe population was considerably greater 
then. (It was 8 million in 1841 and it’sonly 6 million today).

 There’s 42 parishes in the county, and probably250 – 300 churches. Not all the 
churches have records back to the mid 1800s letalone 1811 when William was 
born, and of those that do, many are not on-line.Only the RC records are fairly 
comprehensively on-line. For all other denominationsit’s very patchy. A lot 
have been copied and are in PRONI, but there are somesmall churches where the 
Minister still has the only copy of the records.No-one has copied them at all, 
and the only way of checking them is to contacthim/her. Searching all the 
various church records for Tyrone is a mammoth task.Researchers need to be able 
to reduce the search by knowing the exact denomination(s)of the families they 
are looking at. And we need some reasonably reliableinformation on where they 
might have lived to keep the research withinreasonable bounds. Searching the 
church records for the whole county forArmstrong would be a huge task. But even 
then, there’s no getting away from thefact that the Church of Ireland lost a 
significant portion of its records inthe 1922 fire, and that other 
denominations didn’t always keep records, or ifthey did, they have been lost or 
damaged. So no certainty of success at all.

 It’s worth bearing in mind that noteveryone is listed in Griffiths. Servants, 
people lodging with others and folkwith very low value properties were all 
excluded. Labourers who moved aroundregularly to follow available work often 
slipped through the Griffiths clerks net.There are other examples. Also it was 
compiled for Tyrone around 1860, so if afamily had left by that year, they 
won't be in it.

 With your Samuel and William, I wouldsearch all possible records in Canada, or 
wherever else they ended up. Marriageand death certificates sometimes give 
places of birth, as well as parentsnames. Military records, obituaries, wills 
etc can all throw up informationabout someone’s origins.  Because it’ssuch a 
common name, to trace William Armstrong born c1852, we’d need hismother’s full 
name, to be sure of finding the right family. Presumably you knowthat, though 
it isn’t in your post. 

 The researcher’s expertise is obviouslyimportant but equally we can’t magic up 
records that don’t exist anymore, and themore accurate your information and the 
narrower the search area, the better thechances of success.

  Elwyn


  From: Boyd Gray via CoTyroneList 
 To: CoTyroneIreland.com Mailing List  
Cc: Boyd Gray 
 Sent: Monday, 3 December 2018, 22:31
 Subject: Re: [CoTyroneMailingList] Using a researcher
   
Hi Margaret,
I am a "researcher" currently working on a project very similar to the one you 
describe.  And after weeks of research, I have not found that magical "smoking 
gun" which you seem to desire.  Thankfully, I am not being expected to do so 
and I made that clear at the start when I offered to help.  It is as simple as 
this.  If the records do not exist, no amount of research, by anyone other than 
a magic fairy, is ever going to find that definitive link for which you seek.  
In the end, it will all come down to probabilities.  If you have researched 
every birth, marriage and death, every land record from the Tithe Applotment 
Books, through the Griffiths Valuation AND beyond through the Griffiths 
Valuation Revision Books, through their overlap with the censuses and right 
through to their end circa 1930, then you will have sufficient sense of the 
family in that area to know whether they are your folks, to withing 80% or 90% 
degree of certainty.  But you can not expect even a professional researcher to 
magic up a record which does not exist.
Just like you, we found a Christopher Irwin, but not the Christopher Irwin who 
emigrated to Ontario in 1850 because this Christopher Irwin was still in Co 
Tyrone when he died in 1906.  But, we have done enough work on this branch of 
the Irwins, compared to other Irwins from County Tyrone, which was the only 
clue given by Canadian records, to be reasonably sure we have the right Irwins. 
 But no smoking gun.  No family bible.  No record from a list of sources which 
simply does not exist.  No researcher with a magic wand.  If you need to know 
what sources are actually available, have a look here at the helpful hints, 
workshop videos, sources and links:https://www.facebook.com/westulstergenealogy/

That is the reality.
Keep researching, do not give up, but do not look for the impossible 
though, who knows you may strike lucky and find that mythicak family bible.
I hope this helps.
Regards,
Boyd
https://www.westulstergenealogy.com/

https://www.facebook.com/westulstergenealogy/

Re: [CoTyroneMailingList] Using a researcher

[Boyd Gray via CoTyroneList]

Hi Margaret,

I am a "researcher" currently working on a project very similar to the one
you describe.  And after weeks of research, I have not found that magical
"smoking gun" which you seem to desire.  Thankfully, I am not being
expected to do so and I made that clear at the start when I offered to
help.  It is as simple as this.  If the records do not exist, no amount of
research, by anyone other than a magic fairy, is ever going to find that
definitive link for which you seek.  In the end, it will all come down to
probabilities.  If you have researched every birth, marriage and death,
every land record from the Tithe Applotment Books, through the Griffiths
Valuation AND beyond through the Griffiths Valuation Revision Books,
through their overlap with the censuses and right through to their end
circa 1930, then you will have sufficient sense of the family in that area
to know whether they are your folks, to withing 80% or 90% degree of
certainty.  But you can not expect even a professional researcher to magic
up a record which does not exist.

Just like you, we found a Christopher Irwin, but not the Christopher Irwin
who emigrated to Ontario in 1850 because this Christopher Irwin was still
in Co Tyrone when he died in 1906.  But, we have done enough work on this
branch of the Irwins, compared to other Irwins from County Tyrone, which
was the only clue given by Canadian records, to be reasonably sure we have
the right Irwins.  But no smoking gun.  No family bible.  No record from a
list of sources which simply does not exist.  No researcher with a magic
wand.  If you need to know what sources are actually available, have a look
here at the helpful hints, workshop videos, sources and links:
https://www.facebook.com/westulstergenealogy/

That is the reality.

Keep researching, do not give up, but do not look for the impossible
though, who knows you may strike lucky and find that mythicak family
bible.

I hope this helps.

Regards,

Boyd

https://www.westulstergenealogy.com/

https://www.facebook.com/westulstergenealogy/

http://familytrees.genopro.com/boydgray26/Boyd/




On Mon, 3 Dec 2018 at 21:42, margaret marion via CoTyroneList <
cotyronelist@cotyroneireland.com> wrote:

> I have grown more and more frustrated with my research in Northern
> Ireland.  Has anyone ever used a researcher?  Was it a good experience?
> Can anyone recommend someone?
> I have done my research for Samuel Armstrong born 1811 and his son William
> born 1852, Tyrone, Northern Ireland.
> I have done Griffith's Valuation and the census from 1901 and 1911.
> I centered on the Armstrong's of Sixmilecross.  I went there because in
> Griffith's Valuation, they had a Samuel Armstrong.
> I now know that it is not my Samuel Armstrong.  I figure he came to Canada
> in 1860 - 1862.
> The Samuel Armstrong of Sixmilecross is present right into the late
> 1800's.
> this is what frustrated me to the most.
> I have done the family tree for the Armstrong's of Sixmilecross back to
> 1797 with Isaac Armstrong, father Francis, I believe, but not lots of proof.
> My own guess is Samuel is a younger brother of Isaac.  But absolutely no
> proof.
> Hence the reason I am thinking of getting a researcher for a bit.
> Any advice would be appreciated.
> Margaret Marion
> Oshawa, Ontario, Canada
> ___
> CoTyroneList mailing list
> CoTyroneList@cotyroneireland.com
> http://mail.cotyroneireland.com/mailman/listinfo/
> (_internal_name)s
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Re: [CoTyroneMailingList] William IRWIN

[Boyd Gray via CoTyroneList]

Gr. "That is because most Irwins were PROTESTANT ( not Catholic)
but not all."

On Sun, 2 Dec 2018, 14:37 Boyd Gray  Hi David,
>
> I am currently researching the Irwins of Claremore, Parish of Clogher,
> County Tyrone, who also emigrated to Ontario.  But since they came from
> Clogher, that means they are NOT your Irwins.  Except for the fact that we
> are not 100% sure our Irwins did come from Clogher and you do not seem too
> sure that yours came from Ardboe (Arboe?) because Ardboe is not the same
> place as Castlederg and if they came from one, it is highly unlikely they
> also came from the other.  (I live in this part of the world and my Grays
> are NOT related to the all the other Grays in County Tyrone!)  I should
> also add that I have never heard of Benbeg and it is not in this list of
> townlands for County Tyrone:
> https://www.townlands.ie/tyrone/
>
> So, the point of my response to you, David, is that you really need to
> work on the following points in order to make progress with your research:
>
> 1.  You need something, anything, from their lives in Canada, to give you
> a place name to work with in your research.  Why Ardboe?  Why Castlederg?
> It is really unlikely to be both.  What evidence do you have from Canada,
> or England, not just the discovery of similar names in Ireland?  Canadian
> deaths, and especially Ontario deaths, often give the place where people
> were born and also, perhaps even more helpfully, the names of both parents
> including the mother's maiden name.  English 19th century censuses may also
> be more helpful.
>
> 2.  If the older William was born between 1820 and 1830, it is likely he
> married after 1845 and that is when Protestant marriages were first
> recorded by the civil authorities here in Ireland and those records are
> online.  So, you need to know the name of his wife and look for that
> marriage.  It is unlikely the younger William and his brother Robert were
> born before 1864, so you will not find their civil births because they only
> started being recorded in 1864.  That is a task for church records and they
> are NOT online so cannot be researched at the click of a mouse.
> Incidentally, I am assuming they were Protestant (Church of Ireland,
> Presbyterian or Methodist typically).  That is because most Irwins were
> Catholic but not all.  So, you need to establish that first.  Catholic
> church records ARE online.
>
> If you can answer these questions, then get back to us and I am sure
> people will be able to help.
>
> You might also consider checking with this group to see if they know of
> any Ardboes or Benbegs near Castlederg:
> https://www.facebook.com/groups/castledergfamilyhistorysociety/
> (Actually, I did it for you so you can go there and see what they say.)
>
> Regards,
>
> Boyd
>
> https://www.westulstergenealogy.com/
>
> https://www.facebook.com/westulstergenealogy/
>
> http://familytrees.genopro.com/boydgray26/Boyd/
>
>
>
>
> On Sun, 2 Dec 2018 at 12:58, David Irwin via CoTyroneList <
> cotyronelist@cotyroneireland.com> wrote:
>
>> Please can you post the following on the Co Tyrone message board?
>>
>>
>>
>> I am researching William IRWIN, b1820-30ish near Ardboe in Co Tyrone. My
>> understanding is that he had two sons, William and Robert who both
>> emigrated to England in the late 1800s. However I think William (the
>> father) emigrated to Huron County, Ontario Canada and died there in 1889.
>> The family may also have spent the early part of their time in Northern
>> Ireland in the Castlederg or Benbeg areas. I would be delighted to hear
>> from anyone who can add to the story please, particularly as my father
>> William (yes another one!) and a direct descendant has recently passed
>> away. Thank you
>>
>>
>>
>> Many thanks
>>
>>
>>
>> David
>> ___
>> CoTyroneList mailing list
>> CoTyroneList@cotyroneireland.com
>> http://mail.cotyroneireland.com/mailman/listinfo/
>> (_internal_name)s
>
>
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[CoTyroneMailingList] CoTyroneIreland.com - New Content - Subsidy Roll, Donagheady Parish, Co. Tyrone 1666

[Jim McKane via CoTyroneList]

Subsidy Roll, Donagheady Parish, Co. Tyrone 1666


Thanks again to Len Swindley for another great addition to CTI!

Jim McKane
South Bruce Peninsula, Ontario
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