Re: [CoTyroneMailingList] Marriage Customs
Linda, I got the Amazon version for $3.99 (AUD) and downloaded to my iPad. Gordon On 25/06/2020 7:27 am, Marion via CoTyroneList wrote: ‘Bob was a Protestant Horse’ is a book which you will find on Amazon. You can buy the kindle version and download it. JSTOR is where I found the journal articles related to the book ‘The population of Ireland 1750-1845’ by KH Connell. Marion Sent from Mail for Windows 10 From: Linda Nimer Sent: 24 June 2020 19:59 To: CoTyroneIreland. com Mailing List; Marion Subject: Re: [CoTyroneMailingList] Marriage Customs Thanks for the clarification. I did find JSTOR while looking for the other one, but did not see Bob was a Protestant Horse in their Irish section. Any suggestions on how to locate it on the JSTOR website? Linda ___ CoTyroneList Mailing List Mailing List Email Address: CoTyroneList@cotyroneireland.com Change Your Preferences: http://cotyroneireland.com/mailman/listinfo/cotyronelist_cotyroneireland.com Mailing List Archive: https://goo.gl/mQCKrY
Re: [CoTyroneMailingList] Marriage Customs
Hi Elwyn, I wonder if 'your' farmer bought a Fordson tractor, as that was the franchise P p/l had, and whether they bought from dad as he sold mainly in Down and Armagh? On one occasion I recall standing at the bottom of a rather steep field (dressed in shorts like the lad in the cover picture of the book) alongside the farmer, as dad demonstrated the tractor ploughing up the field and harrowing it (P made ploughs and harrows). He often commented that he thought that some farmers just wanted their fields ploughed and had no intention of buying a tractor! Anyway, dad got to the top of the seep rise and tried to turn, but the slope was too great. Then he tried to reverse, when the front of the tractor rose up before him (a bit like in the popular Irish Blessing), so he called to us and we had to cling onto the front of the machine to counterweigh it as he eventually got back down the hill. Dad later remarked that the Irish stand their fields on edge so they can plough both sites. :) He also confessed that he thought some of the terrain he demonstrated on, whilst he could handle the tractor in those conditions, was too dangerous for the average farmer to use a tractor and it gave him some cause for concern. Being in Belfast, we had electricity during the war, although the street lights were gas. We got a telephone installed around 1945 so that the firm could contact him in emergency. We were all admonished to not use the phone, it's for business only!!! I still recall the number: 5557. Fond memories. Thanks for mentioning the McDonald's book. Must write my own memoirs sometime, when I get the time. Gordon On 24/06/2020 7:26 pm, elwyn soutter via CoTyroneList wrote: Gordon, I am glad you are enjoying the book. It made me laugh. I have a neighbour who was brought up on a farm like that in Co. Down and he says it’s pretty typical. He particularly recalled the arrival of the first tractor in the late 1940s which he (as a young man) was wildly enthusiastic about. His father however was very suspicious and preferred horses. Whenever the tractor broke down, his father was quick to point out: ‘You don’t have that problem with horses.” (Though actually you do). The horses were kept on largely as pets till the end of their days because his father was so fond of them. Electricity was another controversial change. His father couldn’t see the point of it at first. It was just as easy to light a paraffin lamp to milk the cows, as flick a switch, was his view. However when someone invented electric milking machines and it halved the time taken to milk the cows, he suddenly came round to its uses. At first the only electricity on the farm was in the milking shed. None in the house. No use for it there! Elwyn ___ CoTyroneList Mailing List Mailing List Email Address: CoTyroneList@cotyroneireland.com Change Your Preferences: http://cotyroneireland.com/mailman/listinfo/cotyronelist_cotyroneireland.com Mailing List Archive: https://goo.gl/mQCKrY
Re: [CoTyroneMailingList] Marriage Customs
‘Bob was a Protestant Horse’ is a book which you will find on Amazon. You can buy the kindle version and download it. JSTOR is where I found the journal articles related to the book ‘The population of Ireland 1750-1845’ by KH Connell. Marion Sent from Mail for Windows 10 From: Linda Nimer Sent: 24 June 2020 19:59 To: CoTyroneIreland. com Mailing List; Marion Subject: Re: [CoTyroneMailingList] Marriage Customs Thanks for the clarification. I did find JSTOR while looking for the other one, but did not see Bob was a Protestant Horse in their Irish section. Any suggestions on how to locate it on the JSTOR website? Linda On Wednesday, June 24, 2020, 01:03:43 AM PDT, Marion wrote: Sorry Linda, That should have been JSTOR ! Its a website where you can access a variety of academic journals. I’ ve only just discovered it and they are allowing free accounts during COVID pandemic. Apologies for typing error; it was late when I sent the email. Regards Marion Sent from Mail for Windows 10 From: Linda Nimer via CoTyroneList Sent: 24 June 2020 05:07 To: Marion via CoTyroneList Cc: Linda Nimer Subject: Re: [CoTyroneMailingList] Marriage Customs What is YSTOR? Linda On Tuesday, June 23, 2020, 03:11:42 PM PDT, Marion via CoTyroneList wrote: Elwyn Thanks again for all your explanations and insight which have helped me understand this topic more clearly. The journals I mentioned cover similar topics to the book you described and I have been able to access them through YSTOR which is free at the moment. I have already downloaded ‘Bob was a Protestant horse’ onto my kindle and am looking forward to reading it. I always expect an interesting response to my queries from you and am never disappointed. Ron Thanks to you too for your perspective on illegitimacy and the way people tend to be supportive in these circumstances. Its strange that no one in my family knew that my grandfather was illegitimate till I started delving into the past! I am grateful to everyone who has contributed to this discussion and really appreciate the forum the mailing list provides. Regards Marion Sent from Mail for Windows 10 ___ CoTyroneList Mailing List Mailing List Email Address: CoTyroneList@cotyroneireland.com Change Your Preferences: http://cotyroneireland.com/mailman/listinfo/cotyronelist_cotyroneireland.com Mailing List Archive: https://goo.gl/mQCKrY ___ CoTyroneList Mailing List Mailing List Email Address: CoTyroneList@cotyroneireland.com Change Your Preferences: http://cotyroneireland.com/mailman/listinfo/cotyronelist_cotyroneireland.com Mailing List Archive: https://goo.gl/mQCKrY ___ CoTyroneList Mailing List Mailing List Email Address: CoTyroneList@cotyroneireland.com Change Your Preferences: http://cotyroneireland.com/mailman/listinfo/cotyronelist_cotyroneireland.com Mailing List Archive: https://goo.gl/mQCKrY
Re: [CoTyroneMailingList] Marriage Customs
Thanks for the clarification. I did find JSTOR while looking for the other one, but did not see Bob was a Protestant Horse in their Irish section. Any suggestions on how to locate it on the JSTOR website? Linda On Wednesday, June 24, 2020, 01:03:43 AM PDT, Marion wrote: Sorry Linda, That should have been JSTOR ! Its a website where you can access a variety of academic journals. I’ ve only just discovered it and they are allowing free accounts during COVID pandemic. Apologies for typing error; it was late when I sent the email. Regards Marion Sent from Mail for Windows 10 From: Linda Nimer via CoTyroneList Sent: 24 June 2020 05:07 To: Marion via CoTyroneList Cc: Linda Nimer Subject: Re: [CoTyroneMailingList] Marriage Customs What is YSTOR? Linda On Tuesday, June 23, 2020, 03:11:42 PM PDT, Marion via CoTyroneList wrote: Elwyn Thanks again for all your explanations and insight which have helped me understand this topic more clearly. The journals I mentioned cover similar topics to the book you described and I have been able to access them through YSTOR which is free at the moment. I have already downloaded ‘Bob was a Protestant horse’ onto my kindle and am looking forward to reading it. I always expect an interesting response to my queries from you and am never disappointed. Ron Thanks to you too for your perspective on illegitimacy and the way people tend to be supportive in these circumstances. Its strange that no one in my family knew that my grandfather was illegitimate till I started delving into the past! I am grateful to everyone who has contributed to this discussion and really appreciate the forum the mailing list provides. Regards Marion Sent from Mail for Windows 10 ___ CoTyroneList Mailing List Mailing List Email Address: CoTyroneList@cotyroneireland.com Change Your Preferences: http://cotyroneireland.com/mailman/listinfo/cotyronelist_cotyroneireland.com Mailing List Archive: https://goo.gl/mQCKrY ___ CoTyroneList Mailing List Mailing List Email Address: CoTyroneList@cotyroneireland.com Change Your Preferences: http://cotyroneireland.com/mailman/listinfo/cotyronelist_cotyroneireland.com Mailing List Archive: https://goo.gl/mQCKrY ___ CoTyroneList Mailing List Mailing List Email Address: CoTyroneList@cotyroneireland.com Change Your Preferences: http://cotyroneireland.com/mailman/listinfo/cotyronelist_cotyroneireland.com Mailing List Archive: https://goo.gl/mQCKrY
Re: [CoTyroneMailingList] Marriage Customs
In the United States JSTOR can be accessed via a public library membership. > On Jun 24, 2020, at 4:03 AM, Marion via CoTyroneList > wrote: > > Sorry Linda, > That should have been JSTOR ! Its a website where you can access a variety of > academic journals. I’ ve only just discovered it and they are allowing free > accounts during COVID pandemic. Apologies for typing error; it was late when > I sent the email. > Regards Marion > > Sent from Mail for Windows 10 > > From: Linda Nimer via CoTyroneList > Sent: 24 June 2020 05:07 > To: Marion via CoTyroneList > Cc: Linda Nimer > Subject: Re: [CoTyroneMailingList] Marriage Customs > > What is YSTOR? > Linda > >On Tuesday, June 23, 2020, 03:11:42 PM PDT, Marion via CoTyroneList > wrote: > > Elwyn > Thanks again for all your explanations and insight which have helped me > understand this topic more clearly. The journals I mentioned cover similar > topics to the book you described and I have been able to access them through > YSTOR which is free at the moment. I have already downloaded ‘Bob was a > Protestant horse’ onto my kindle and am looking forward to reading it. I > always expect an interesting response to my queries from you and am never > disappointed. > > Ron > Thanks to you too for your perspective on illegitimacy and the way people > tend to be supportive in these circumstances. Its strange that no one in my > family knew that my grandfather was illegitimate till I started delving into > the past! > > I am grateful to everyone who has contributed to this discussion and really > appreciate the forum the mailing list provides. > Regards Marion > > Sent from Mail for Windows 10 > > > > > > ___ > CoTyroneList Mailing List > Mailing List Email Address: CoTyroneList@cotyroneireland.com > Change Your Preferences: > http://cotyroneireland.com/mailman/listinfo/cotyronelist_cotyroneireland.com > Mailing List Archive: https://goo.gl/mQCKrY > > ___ > CoTyroneList Mailing List > Mailing List Email Address: CoTyroneList@cotyroneireland.com > Change Your Preferences: > http://cotyroneireland.com/mailman/listinfo/cotyronelist_cotyroneireland.com > Mailing List Archive: https://goo.gl/mQCKrY > > ___ > CoTyroneList Mailing List > Mailing List Email Address: CoTyroneList@cotyroneireland.com > Change Your Preferences: > http://cotyroneireland.com/mailman/listinfo/cotyronelist_cotyroneireland.com > Mailing List Archive: https://goo.gl/mQCKrY ___ CoTyroneList Mailing List Mailing List Email Address: CoTyroneList@cotyroneireland.com Change Your Preferences: http://cotyroneireland.com/mailman/listinfo/cotyronelist_cotyroneireland.com Mailing List Archive: https://goo.gl/mQCKrY
Re: [CoTyroneMailingList] Marriage Customs
Gordon, I am glad you are enjoying the book. It made me laugh. I have a neighbour who was brought up on a farm like that in Co. Down and he says it’s pretty typical. He particularly recalled the arrival of the first tractor in the late 1940s which he (as a young man) was wildly enthusiastic about. His father however was very suspicious and preferred horses. Whenever the tractor broke down, his father was quick to point out: ‘You don’t have that problem with horses.” (Though actually you do). The horses were kept on largely as pets till the end of their days because his father was so fond of them. Electricity was another controversial change. His father couldn’t see the point of it at first. It was just as easy to light a paraffin lamp to milk the cows, as flick a switch, was his view. However when someone invented electric milking machines and it halved the time taken to milk the cows, he suddenly came round to its uses. At first the only electricity on the farm was in the milking shed. None in the house. No use for it there! Elwyn On Wed, 24 Jun 2020 at 09:04, Marion via CoTyroneList < cotyronelist@cotyroneireland.com> wrote: > Sorry Linda, > That should have been JSTOR ! Its a website where you can access a variety > of academic journals. I’ ve only just discovered it and they are allowing > free accounts during COVID pandemic. Apologies for typing error; it was > late when I sent the email. > Regards Marion > > Sent from Mail for Windows 10 > > From: Linda Nimer via CoTyroneList > Sent: 24 June 2020 05:07 > To: Marion via CoTyroneList > Cc: Linda Nimer > Subject: Re: [CoTyroneMailingList] Marriage Customs > > What is YSTOR? > Linda > > On Tuesday, June 23, 2020, 03:11:42 PM PDT, Marion via CoTyroneList < > cotyronelist@cotyroneireland.com> wrote: > > Elwyn > Thanks again for all your explanations and insight which have helped me > understand this topic more clearly. The journals I mentioned cover similar > topics to the book you described and I have been able to access them > through YSTOR which is free at the moment. I have already downloaded ‘Bob > was a Protestant horse’ onto my kindle and am looking forward to reading > it. I always expect an interesting response to my queries from you and am > never disappointed. > > Ron > Thanks to you too for your perspective on illegitimacy and the way people > tend to be supportive in these circumstances. Its strange that no one in my > family knew that my grandfather was illegitimate till I started delving > into the past! > > I am grateful to everyone who has contributed to this discussion and > really appreciate the forum the mailing list provides. > Regards Marion > > Sent from Mail for Windows 10 > > > > > > ___ > CoTyroneList Mailing List > Mailing List Email Address: CoTyroneList@cotyroneireland.com > Change Your Preferences: > http://cotyroneireland.com/mailman/listinfo/cotyronelist_cotyroneireland.com > Mailing List Archive: https://goo.gl/mQCKrY > > ___ > CoTyroneList Mailing List > Mailing List Email Address: CoTyroneList@cotyroneireland.com > Change Your Preferences: > http://cotyroneireland.com/mailman/listinfo/cotyronelist_cotyroneireland.com > Mailing List Archive: https://goo.gl/mQCKrY > > ___ > CoTyroneList Mailing List > Mailing List Email Address: CoTyroneList@cotyroneireland.com > Change Your Preferences: > http://cotyroneireland.com/mailman/listinfo/cotyronelist_cotyroneireland.com > Mailing List Archive: https://goo.gl/mQCKrY > ___ CoTyroneList Mailing List Mailing List Email Address: CoTyroneList@cotyroneireland.com Change Your Preferences: http://cotyroneireland.com/mailman/listinfo/cotyronelist_cotyroneireland.com Mailing List Archive: https://goo.gl/mQCKrY
Re: [CoTyroneMailingList] Marriage Customs
Sorry Linda, That should have been JSTOR ! Its a website where you can access a variety of academic journals. I’ ve only just discovered it and they are allowing free accounts during COVID pandemic. Apologies for typing error; it was late when I sent the email. Regards Marion Sent from Mail for Windows 10 From: Linda Nimer via CoTyroneList Sent: 24 June 2020 05:07 To: Marion via CoTyroneList Cc: Linda Nimer Subject: Re: [CoTyroneMailingList] Marriage Customs What is YSTOR? Linda On Tuesday, June 23, 2020, 03:11:42 PM PDT, Marion via CoTyroneList wrote: Elwyn Thanks again for all your explanations and insight which have helped me understand this topic more clearly. The journals I mentioned cover similar topics to the book you described and I have been able to access them through YSTOR which is free at the moment. I have already downloaded ‘Bob was a Protestant horse’ onto my kindle and am looking forward to reading it. I always expect an interesting response to my queries from you and am never disappointed. Ron Thanks to you too for your perspective on illegitimacy and the way people tend to be supportive in these circumstances. Its strange that no one in my family knew that my grandfather was illegitimate till I started delving into the past! I am grateful to everyone who has contributed to this discussion and really appreciate the forum the mailing list provides. Regards Marion Sent from Mail for Windows 10 ___ CoTyroneList Mailing List Mailing List Email Address: CoTyroneList@cotyroneireland.com Change Your Preferences: http://cotyroneireland.com/mailman/listinfo/cotyronelist_cotyroneireland.com Mailing List Archive: https://goo.gl/mQCKrY ___ CoTyroneList Mailing List Mailing List Email Address: CoTyroneList@cotyroneireland.com Change Your Preferences: http://cotyroneireland.com/mailman/listinfo/cotyronelist_cotyroneireland.com Mailing List Archive: https://goo.gl/mQCKrY ___ CoTyroneList Mailing List Mailing List Email Address: CoTyroneList@cotyroneireland.com Change Your Preferences: http://cotyroneireland.com/mailman/listinfo/cotyronelist_cotyroneireland.com Mailing List Archive: https://goo.gl/mQCKrY
Re: [CoTyroneMailingList] Marriage Customs
What is YSTOR? Linda On Tuesday, June 23, 2020, 03:11:42 PM PDT, Marion via CoTyroneList wrote: Elwyn Thanks again for all your explanations and insight which have helped me understand this topic more clearly. The journals I mentioned cover similar topics to the book you described and I have been able to access them through YSTOR which is free at the moment. I have already downloaded ‘Bob was a Protestant horse’ onto my kindle and am looking forward to reading it. I always expect an interesting response to my queries from you and am never disappointed. Ron Thanks to you too for your perspective on illegitimacy and the way people tend to be supportive in these circumstances. Its strange that no one in my family knew that my grandfather was illegitimate till I started delving into the past! I am grateful to everyone who has contributed to this discussion and really appreciate the forum the mailing list provides. Regards Marion Sent from Mail for Windows 10 ___ CoTyroneList Mailing List Mailing List Email Address: CoTyroneList@cotyroneireland.com Change Your Preferences: http://cotyroneireland.com/mailman/listinfo/cotyronelist_cotyroneireland.com Mailing List Archive: https://goo.gl/mQCKrY ___ CoTyroneList Mailing List Mailing List Email Address: CoTyroneList@cotyroneireland.com Change Your Preferences: http://cotyroneireland.com/mailman/listinfo/cotyronelist_cotyroneireland.com Mailing List Archive: https://goo.gl/mQCKrY
Re: [CoTyroneMailingList] Marriage Customs
I've just downloaded "Bob was a Protestant Horse" and I notice a few similarities to my early days: * It's set near Cookstown, just north of Dungannon where my ancestors came from (or is it 'from whence my ancestors came'? :) ) * There's a Wilkinson farm just up the road. That's my name, but not my farm. There are many Wilkinsons in that general area. Mine moved to Belfast in the late 19thC. * I too spent several summers, in the '40s up to 1948 when we emigrated, on family friend Robinson's Farm in Hillsborough, Co. Down, as a child. Dad was works manager of Patrick & Wilkinson, an agricultural machinery manufacturer in Belfast, and I'd often accompany him on trips where he'd try to sell tractors to farmers. Sometimes successfully, but draught horses were common then. * The farm's description brings back fond memories of those farming days. I do remember the cold mornings, running barefoot all the time, collecting eggs, keeping away from the geese, and harvesting time in the fields when the 'ladies' would ply us 'workers' with ploughmens lunches. What a lovely whimsical story I have yet to read in full. Gordon On 24/06/2020 10:02 am, Gordon Wilkinson via CoTyroneList wrote: Elwyn, Don't for one moment think Handfasting is obsolete. My Irish cousin (of mature years) 'Handfasted' a few years ago in true Druid fashion to his 3rd wife. Although married in Oz they traveled to the UK to visit Liverpool relatives (from Armagh) and for their Handfasting. I have the video and it was a moving ceremony. Some of these Druid traditions still persist. In this case I think the Handfasting came after the marriage. ;-) Gordon On 24/06/2020 4:45 am, elwyn soutter via CoTyroneList wrote: Peter, I have come across “buckle the beggar” but not buckleberry. It looks to be a term that must have come to Ulster with the Scots, as many of our local words did. I have never heard it used in Ulster but it seems as though it was at one time because I can see a couple of references on the net. In the Scottish National Dictionary it says: *buckle-beggar*, *buckle-the-beggars*, “one who marries others in a clandestine and disorderly manner” (Sc. 1808 Jam.) It reminds me a little of another form of marriage known as “handfasting.” This was particularly common in the Scottish Borders in the 1500s & early 1600s, where there were very few Priests or Ministers due to the whole place being basically lawless. Such clerics as there were usually had to have a peel tower (similar to a bawn in Ulster) to retreat to if attacked. So it was hard to get a Priest or a Minister to marry you. Quoting from Godfrey Watsons’ book ”The Border Reivers[1] <#_ftn1>” (publ 1974) p 180: “..if a priest was perhaps available only once a year, a problem inevitably arose for those who wished to get married out of season, as it were. The answer was ‘handfasting.’ This was a custom whereby a couple would live together till the book-a-bosom man could bless their union. The arrangement was for a trial period of one year (unless the parson appeared earlier), after which it became permanent. If, before then, one or other wanted to bring the arrangement to an end, he or she must accept responsibility for any children of the union, in which case they were still regarded as legitimate. There is still in existence an old genealogy of the Elliots of Lariston, which refers to “Simon of Benks who handfasted or took for a trial a bastard daughter of the said Gibbie with the Golden Garters on condition he should pay her a considerable tocher[2] <#_ftn2> in case he was not pleased with her.” Normally handfasting required no dowry, and this idea of making second hand goods more marriageable may well have been restricted to the gentry, who appear to have handfasted in the same way as anyone else. John, Lord Maxwell, for instance was contracted thus to a sister of the Earl of Angus. Nobody in the Borders seems to have worried very much about children being born out of wedlock, and there are countless examples of natural[3] <#_ftn3> children figuring openly in men’s wills.” Isn’t “Gibbie with the Golden Garters” a wonderful name? ___ CoTyroneList Mailing List Mailing List Email Address: CoTyroneList@cotyroneireland.com Change Your Preferences: http://cotyroneireland.com/mailman/listinfo/cotyronelist_cotyroneireland.com Mailing List Archive: https://goo.gl/mQCKrY -- _ Nereda & Gordon Wilkinson, Hyde Park, South Australia. Web: www.ozemail.com.au/~neredon Skype id: neredon Emails: gordon.wilkin...@ozemail.com.aunereda.wilkin...@ozemail.com.au ___ CoTyroneList Mailing List Mailing List Email Address: CoTyroneList@cotyroneireland.com Change Your Preferences: http://cotyroneireland.com/mailman/listinfo/cotyronelist_cotyroneireland.com
Re: [CoTyroneMailingList] Marriage Customs
Elwyn, Don't for one moment think Handfasting is obsolete. My Irish cousin (of mature years) 'Handfasted' a few years ago in true Druid fashion to his 3rd wife. Although married in Oz they traveled to the UK to visit Liverpool relatives (from Armagh) and for their Handfasting. I have the video and it was a moving ceremony. Some of these Druid traditions still persist. In this case I think the Handfasting came after the marriage. ;-) Gordon On 24/06/2020 4:45 am, elwyn soutter via CoTyroneList wrote: Peter, I have come across “buckle the beggar” but not buckleberry. It looks to be a term that must have come to Ulster with the Scots, as many of our local words did. I have never heard it used in Ulster but it seems as though it was at one time because I can see a couple of references on the net. In the Scottish National Dictionary it says: *buckle-beggar*, *buckle-the-beggars*, “one who marries others in a clandestine and disorderly manner” (Sc. 1808 Jam.) It reminds me a little of another form of marriage known as “handfasting.” This was particularly common in the Scottish Borders in the 1500s & early 1600s, where there were very few Priests or Ministers due to the whole place being basically lawless. Such clerics as there were usually had to have a peel tower (similar to a bawn in Ulster) to retreat to if attacked. So it was hard to get a Priest or a Minister to marry you. Quoting from Godfrey Watsons’ book ”The Border Reivers[1] <#_ftn1>” (publ 1974) p 180: “..if a priest was perhaps available only once a year, a problem inevitably arose for those who wished to get married out of season, as it were. The answer was ‘handfasting.’ This was a custom whereby a couple would live together till the book-a-bosom man could bless their union. The arrangement was for a trial period of one year (unless the parson appeared earlier), after which it became permanent. If, before then, one or other wanted to bring the arrangement to an end, he or she must accept responsibility for any children of the union, in which case they were still regarded as legitimate. There is still in existence an old genealogy of the Elliots of Lariston, which refers to “Simon of Benks who handfasted or took for a trial a bastard daughter of the said Gibbie with the Golden Garters on condition he should pay her a considerable tocher[2] <#_ftn2> in case he was not pleased with her.” Normally handfasting required no dowry, and this idea of making second hand goods more marriageable may well have been restricted to the gentry, who appear to have handfasted in the same way as anyone else. John, Lord Maxwell, for instance was contracted thus to a sister of the Earl of Angus. Nobody in the Borders seems to have worried very much about children being born out of wedlock, and there are countless examples of natural[3] <#_ftn3> children figuring openly in men’s wills.” Isn’t “Gibbie with the Golden Garters” a wonderful name? ___ CoTyroneList Mailing List Mailing List Email Address: CoTyroneList@cotyroneireland.com Change Your Preferences: http://cotyroneireland.com/mailman/listinfo/cotyronelist_cotyroneireland.com Mailing List Archive: https://goo.gl/mQCKrY
Re: [CoTyroneMailingList] Marriage Customs
Elwyn Thanks again for all your explanations and insight which have helped me understand this topic more clearly. The journals I mentioned cover similar topics to the book you described and I have been able to access them through YSTOR which is free at the moment. I have already downloaded ‘Bob was a Protestant horse’ onto my kindle and am looking forward to reading it. I always expect an interesting response to my queries from you and am never disappointed. Ron Thanks to you too for your perspective on illegitimacy and the way people tend to be supportive in these circumstances. Its strange that no one in my family knew that my grandfather was illegitimate till I started delving into the past! I am grateful to everyone who has contributed to this discussion and really appreciate the forum the mailing list provides. Regards Marion Sent from Mail for Windows 10 ___ CoTyroneList Mailing List Mailing List Email Address: CoTyroneList@cotyroneireland.com Change Your Preferences: http://cotyroneireland.com/mailman/listinfo/cotyronelist_cotyroneireland.com Mailing List Archive: https://goo.gl/mQCKrY
Re: [CoTyroneMailingList] Marriage Customs
Peter, I have come across “buckle the beggar” but not buckleberry. It looks to be a term that must have come to Ulster with the Scots, as many of our local words did. I have never heard it used in Ulster but it seems as though it was at one time because I can see a couple of references on the net. In the Scottish National Dictionary it says: *buckle-beggar*, *buckle-the-beggars*, “one who marries others in a clandestine and disorderly manner” (Sc. 1808 Jam.) It reminds me a little of another form of marriage known as “handfasting.” This was particularly common in the Scottish Borders in the 1500s & early 1600s, where there were very few Priests or Ministers due to the whole place being basically lawless. Such clerics as there were usually had to have a peel tower (similar to a bawn in Ulster) to retreat to if attacked. So it was hard to get a Priest or a Minister to marry you. Quoting from Godfrey Watsons’ book ”The Border Reivers[1] <#_ftn1>” (publ 1974) p 180: “..if a priest was perhaps available only once a year, a problem inevitably arose for those who wished to get married out of season, as it were. The answer was ‘handfasting.’ This was a custom whereby a couple would live together till the book-a-bosom man could bless their union. The arrangement was for a trial period of one year (unless the parson appeared earlier), after which it became permanent. If, before then, one or other wanted to bring the arrangement to an end, he or she must accept responsibility for any children of the union, in which case they were still regarded as legitimate. There is still in existence an old genealogy of the Elliots of Lariston, which refers to “Simon of Benks who handfasted or took for a trial a bastard daughter of the said Gibbie with the Golden Garters on condition he should pay her a considerable tocher[2] <#_ftn2> in case he was not pleased with her.” Normally handfasting required no dowry, and this idea of making second hand goods more marriageable may well have been restricted to the gentry, who appear to have handfasted in the same way as anyone else. John, Lord Maxwell, for instance was contracted thus to a sister of the Earl of Angus. Nobody in the Borders seems to have worried very much about children being born out of wedlock, and there are countless examples of natural[3] <#_ftn3> children figuring openly in men’s wills.” Isn’t “Gibbie with the Golden Garters” a wonderful name? Elwyn -- [1] <#_ftnref1> Reiver = thief (robber) [2] <#_ftnref2> dowry [3] <#_ftnref3> illegitimate On Tue, 23 Jun 2020 at 13:39, Peter Sinclair wrote: > I must thank Elwyn for his very interesting texts about marriage and > children born out of wedlock (lovely term 'wedlock', with all it implies!). > There is another term I have come across during my research into the > Sinclair families in Cos. Armagh, Tyrone and Monaghan: 'buckle-the-beggar' > or 'buckleberry' marriage. Apparently this was marrying after the birth of > children and was accepted by the Presbyterian and Roman Catholic churches, > but not by the Church of Ireland (presumably before 1845). If Elwyn has any > more information about this I know I would be interested. > > Peter > > please don't print this email unless you really need to > > -Original Message- > From: CoTyroneList On Behalf > Of elwyn soutter via CoTyroneList > Sent: 22 June 2020 22:49 > To: CoTyroneIreland.com Mailing List > Cc: elwyn soutter > Subject: Re: [CoTyroneMailingList] Marriage Customs > > Marion, > > > > Sorry you can’t find Connell’s book. It is fairly old (1950) and may not > be on-line anywhere. I think I found a copy in the Linenhall Library in > Belfast and photocopied a couple of dozen pages. The book looks at Ireland > as a whole and I am not sure if every custom reported there was necessarily > represented in Tyrone, and especially by Ulster-Scots, but it’s obviously a > useful background on marriage practices in Ireland in general. > > > > There are detailed references to arranged marriages but it is also clear > that many were not arranged. (Connell distinguishes between what he called > arranged and customary marriages). Not every bride had a dowry. And there > were some that were perhaps half way between. “John Kerrigan, a Mayo > farmer, told the Poor Inquiry Commission that: “It is not always the > father’s fault that his children get married too soon; sometimes the father > suffers more than the child. I was a comfortable man, and had 4 cows and a > heifer, till my daughter got married, and played me a trick that a good > many girls have done before: she ran off with a young man and, after a > week’s sport, he sent her back without having married her. She never > stopped at me, saying that he wouldn’t take her without a fort
Re: [CoTyroneMailingList] Marriage Customs
I must thank Elwyn for his very interesting texts about marriage and children born out of wedlock (lovely term 'wedlock', with all it implies!). There is another term I have come across during my research into the Sinclair families in Cos. Armagh, Tyrone and Monaghan: 'buckle-the-beggar' or 'buckleberry' marriage. Apparently this was marrying after the birth of children and was accepted by the Presbyterian and Roman Catholic churches, but not by the Church of Ireland (presumably before 1845). If Elwyn has any more information about this I know I would be interested. Peter please don't print this email unless you really need to -Original Message- From: CoTyroneList On Behalf Of elwyn soutter via CoTyroneList Sent: 22 June 2020 22:49 To: CoTyroneIreland.com Mailing List Cc: elwyn soutter Subject: Re: [CoTyroneMailingList] Marriage Customs Marion, Sorry you can’t find Connell’s book. It is fairly old (1950) and may not be on-line anywhere. I think I found a copy in the Linenhall Library in Belfast and photocopied a couple of dozen pages. The book looks at Ireland as a whole and I am not sure if every custom reported there was necessarily represented in Tyrone, and especially by Ulster-Scots, but it’s obviously a useful background on marriage practices in Ireland in general. There are detailed references to arranged marriages but it is also clear that many were not arranged. (Connell distinguishes between what he called arranged and customary marriages). Not every bride had a dowry. And there were some that were perhaps half way between. “John Kerrigan, a Mayo farmer, told the Poor Inquiry Commission that: “It is not always the father’s fault that his children get married too soon; sometimes the father suffers more than the child. I was a comfortable man, and had 4 cows and a heifer, till my daughter got married, and played me a trick that a good many girls have done before: she ran off with a young man and, after a week’s sport, he sent her back without having married her. She never stopped at me, saying that he wouldn’t take her without a fortune, until I was forced to give her three of my cows, and money besides; moreover I had to pay the priest.’” (Page 56). My own view is that arranged marriages were mostly linked to retaining property, and so were of great relevance to farmers but largely irrelevant to labourers and others with few assets (ie the greater part of the population). What you say about your Urney relatives marrying other local farmers was I think fairly common. Until the arrival of the bicycle in rural Ireland in the 1860s most travel, and consequently most courtship, was done on foot. Whilst they were much fitter than most of us today, and could easily travel 15 or 20 miles a day, at the same time they were needed on the farm most of the time and so courting someone who lived say 30 miles away was almost impossible (save for folk whose occupations involved a bit of travel eg soldiers, policemen, stonemasons etc). My wife comes from Co. Fermanagh. Her ancestors all married locally and in a history of her parish (Galloon) a local author said that that in the 1800s it was normal to marry within an “an asses bark of where you lived.” I suppose an asses bark can be heard for about half a mile or so. So you often married someone close to you. The girl next door perhaps? Just as today, family pressures in many households would be to marry someone deemed suitable. So a farmer would want his children to marry another farmer’s children and not a labourer’s. A Church of Ireland – Presbyterian marriage wouldn't raise any eyebrows. A Church of Ireland – RC marriage could do so. Some couples just ignored the difficulties. For others it was a factor in their decision to emigrate. In the 1800s there wasn’t a lot of subdivision of farms. They were mostly pretty small and just wouldn’t be viable if divided out amongst several sons, generation after generation. So the farm usually went to the eldest son, and the other sons were expected to make their own way in the world. (Some did stay as labourers on bigger farms but many had to leave. There was often no other work for them locally). The daughters were hopefully going to be disposed of by marriage with perhaps one – often the youngest – being retained to look after her parents in their old age (lucky her). See *Note* below. I have touched on Ireland’s problems in the 1800s. There were many. (One wit has said that Ireland has too much history and should be given a break.). Most contributed to emigration. I mentioned previously the massive population explosion between 1741 and 1841. In addition, Ireland has very few natural resources (no oil, coal, iron ore etc) and so did not benefit from the industrial revolution in the 1800s, the way Scotland, England, the US, Canada & Australia did, which created hundreds of thousands of comparatively well-paid new jobs in
Re: [CoTyroneMailingList] Marriage Customs
ily ties. It was > I believe probably a very old and effective way of caring for people who > were in effect defenseless in a cruel world looking for scapegoats... > > Cheers > > Ron McCoy > > On 2020-06-22 7:15 a.m., Marion via CoTyroneList wrote: > > Elwyn, > > Many thanks for all the information and suggestions. I have been trying > to access the book you recommended , not very successfully, but I have > found some journal articles he wrote, so I shall be busy reading. > > I was interested in the view that couples mostly selected each other , > as I have read elsewhere that marriage was more of a business matter with > dowries being paid, and wondered how true this was. My own ancestors lived > in the parish of Urney , in both Tyrone and Donegal. The Tyrone family were > Church of Ireland and small farmers, and the men seemed to marry the > daughters of neighbouring farmers, who were Presbyterians. I have wondered > about the basis for their choice but it seems it was to do with > demographics as much as anything. There were many daughters in the family > ,some of whom married, some remained unmarried and others emigrated to > America . Their lives seem to have been much more uncertain. > > My Donegal ancestors were Presbyterians and distinctly Ulster Scots and > fit your description of their patterns of marriage, with the same family > names being linked repeatedly over the generations and the marriage of > relatives often occurring. This seems to have declined in the beginning of > the twentieth century. > > My interest in illegitimacy was also related to an ancestor born out of > wedlock in the Tyrone branch. The mother was the daughter of a small farmer > whose wife had died when her children were very young. She disappeared from > the records for a while but was obviously sent to St Johnstone in Donegal, > as there is a baptism for her son recorded in Taughboyne Parish church in > 1889. After this discreet birth she appears to have returned to the family > although it is not clear what happened to her son. After her fathers death > she continued there acting as housekeeper to her then unmarried brother. In > 1901 she was still with her brother but looking at the inhabitants of > another house on a neighbouring farm , owned by the family, her son, aged > 11, is found lodging with them. By 1911 he was back with his mother, her > brother and his wife in the family home. This was obviously a caring > family, (her father had left her well provided for in his will) but they > must have been concerned about the stigma of illegitimacy. I was curious > about this and wondered if it was an isolated example but from what you say > families were often as supportive as possible. > > Well thanks again for all your knowledgeable comments and your > willingness to share. > > Regards Marion > > > > Sent from Mail for Windows 10 > > > > From: elwyn soutter > > Sent: 21 June 2020 18:56 > > To: CoTyroneIreland.com Mailing List > > Cc: Marion > > Subject: Re: [CoTyroneMailingList] Marriage Customs > > > > Marion, > > > > I suspect that a full answer to your interesting question could fill a > hundred pages. > > > > One source you might want to investigate is: “The Population of Ireland > 1750 – 1845” by KH Connell, published in Oxford 1950. One of the many > causes of the problems that plagued Ireland in the 1800s was the fact that > there had been a massive population explosion. It went up from 3 million in > 1741 to 8 million in 1841. (It’s only 6 million today). No-one is entirely > certain why. A reduction in neo-natal death rates was a factor. Connell > also speculates that they started to marry younger and that consequently > the reproductive rate ( R ) increased significantly. And as we all know > these days, if the R number rises significantly you can see an exponential > increase in whatever you are studying. In this case, children. > > > > The book therefore spends quite a bit of time discussing the customs > surrounding marriage, and also different customs between Catholics and > Protestants. There’s some interesting but grim stuff about arranged > marriages in the West of Ireland, with girls being dragged to the altar by > their fathers, bathed in tears, to marry men they hadn’t a notion for. “The > Chief time for marriages is from Christmas until Lent, being the season of > the year when people have the most leisure for settling such business.” > (page 55). > > > > But not all marriages were arranged. Couples mostly seemed to select > each other in the ways we would recognise today. Another factor was that > marriage was the only thing they could look to, to break the miserableness > of their
Re: [CoTyroneMailingList] Marriage Customs
Hi Marion I can't speak to what happened in Tyrone with your family but I grew up in a Scot-Irish community in Canada and what you described of the family, daughter and illegitimate child would be very typical of how they would be treated in our community. In my family and neighbours they were still like a Clan while not obviously officially. Children who were related and some who were not but fell under the protection of the Clan were looked after by the family best able to care for them and keep them in the community. There was always people who wanted to cast aspirations on to those children and their mothers but the Clan depending on it strength, physical or financial or other wise protected them from the harm that might befall them. They were raised usually in the community as an open secret which was understood and was not held against them. However out side that group was a different and often less forgiving story. Many children were rejected when new wives came on the scene or outside influences over took the family who sheltered the child. At these points the child or mother would if possible move around the group looking for work and a home. If that was impossible then it was brutally hard on those individuals. For that reason you see the movement of young people in the records as you do. That is my experience living in a world with few social services and close family ties. It was I believe probably a very old and effective way of caring for people who were in effect defenseless in a cruel world looking for scapegoats... Cheers Ron McCoy On 2020-06-22 7:15 a.m., Marion via CoTyroneList wrote: Elwyn, Many thanks for all the information and suggestions. I have been trying to access the book you recommended , not very successfully, but I have found some journal articles he wrote, so I shall be busy reading. I was interested in the view that couples mostly selected each other , as I have read elsewhere that marriage was more of a business matter with dowries being paid, and wondered how true this was. My own ancestors lived in the parish of Urney , in both Tyrone and Donegal. The Tyrone family were Church of Ireland and small farmers, and the men seemed to marry the daughters of neighbouring farmers, who were Presbyterians. I have wondered about the basis for their choice but it seems it was to do with demographics as much as anything. There were many daughters in the family ,some of whom married, some remained unmarried and others emigrated to America . Their lives seem to have been much more uncertain. My Donegal ancestors were Presbyterians and distinctly Ulster Scots and fit your description of their patterns of marriage, with the same family names being linked repeatedly over the generations and the marriage of relatives often occurring. This seems to have declined in the beginning of the twentieth century. My interest in illegitimacy was also related to an ancestor born out of wedlock in the Tyrone branch. The mother was the daughter of a small farmer whose wife had died when her children were very young. She disappeared from the records for a while but was obviously sent to St Johnstone in Donegal, as there is a baptism for her son recorded in Taughboyne Parish church in 1889. After this discreet birth she appears to have returned to the family although it is not clear what happened to her son. After her fathers death she continued there acting as housekeeper to her then unmarried brother. In 1901 she was still with her brother but looking at the inhabitants of another house on a neighbouring farm , owned by the family, her son, aged 11, is found lodging with them. By 1911 he was back with his mother, her brother and his wife in the family home. This was obviously a caring family, (her father had left her well provided for in his will) but they must have been concerned about the stigma of illegitimacy. I was curious about this and wondered if it was an isolated example but from what you say families were often as supportive as possible. Well thanks again for all your knowledgeable comments and your willingness to share. Regards Marion Sent from Mail for Windows 10 From: elwyn soutter Sent: 21 June 2020 18:56 To: CoTyroneIreland.com Mailing List Cc: Marion Subject: Re: [CoTyroneMailingList] Marriage Customs Marion, I suspect that a full answer to your interesting question could fill a hundred pages. One source you might want to investigate is: “The Population of Ireland 1750 – 1845” by KH Connell, published in Oxford 1950. One of the many causes of the problems that plagued Ireland in the 1800s was the fact that there had been a massive population explosion. It went up from 3 million in 1741 to 8 million in 1841. (It’s only 6 million today). No-one is entirely certain why. A reduction in neo-natal death rates was a factor. Connell also speculates that they started to marry younger and that consequently the reproductive rate
Re: [CoTyroneMailingList] Marriage Customs
Elwyn, Many thanks for all the information and suggestions. I have been trying to access the book you recommended , not very successfully, but I have found some journal articles he wrote, so I shall be busy reading. I was interested in the view that couples mostly selected each other , as I have read elsewhere that marriage was more of a business matter with dowries being paid, and wondered how true this was. My own ancestors lived in the parish of Urney , in both Tyrone and Donegal. The Tyrone family were Church of Ireland and small farmers, and the men seemed to marry the daughters of neighbouring farmers, who were Presbyterians. I have wondered about the basis for their choice but it seems it was to do with demographics as much as anything. There were many daughters in the family ,some of whom married, some remained unmarried and others emigrated to America . Their lives seem to have been much more uncertain. My Donegal ancestors were Presbyterians and distinctly Ulster Scots and fit your description of their patterns of marriage, with the same family names being linked repeatedly over the generations and the marriage of relatives often occurring. This seems to have declined in the beginning of the twentieth century. My interest in illegitimacy was also related to an ancestor born out of wedlock in the Tyrone branch. The mother was the daughter of a small farmer whose wife had died when her children were very young. She disappeared from the records for a while but was obviously sent to St Johnstone in Donegal, as there is a baptism for her son recorded in Taughboyne Parish church in 1889. After this discreet birth she appears to have returned to the family although it is not clear what happened to her son. After her fathers death she continued there acting as housekeeper to her then unmarried brother. In 1901 she was still with her brother but looking at the inhabitants of another house on a neighbouring farm , owned by the family, her son, aged 11, is found lodging with them. By 1911 he was back with his mother, her brother and his wife in the family home. This was obviously a caring family, (her father had left her well provided for in his will) but they must have been concerned about the stigma of illegitimacy. I was curious about this and wondered if it was an isolated example but from what you say families were often as supportive as possible. Well thanks again for all your knowledgeable comments and your willingness to share. Regards Marion Sent from Mail for Windows 10 From: elwyn soutter Sent: 21 June 2020 18:56 To: CoTyroneIreland.com Mailing List Cc: Marion Subject: Re: [CoTyroneMailingList] Marriage Customs Marion, I suspect that a full answer to your interesting question could fill a hundred pages. One source you might want to investigate is: “The Population of Ireland 1750 – 1845” by KH Connell, published in Oxford 1950. One of the many causes of the problems that plagued Ireland in the 1800s was the fact that there had been a massive population explosion. It went up from 3 million in 1741 to 8 million in 1841. (It’s only 6 million today). No-one is entirely certain why. A reduction in neo-natal death rates was a factor. Connell also speculates that they started to marry younger and that consequently the reproductive rate ( R ) increased significantly. And as we all know these days, if the R number rises significantly you can see an exponential increase in whatever you are studying. In this case, children. The book therefore spends quite a bit of time discussing the customs surrounding marriage, and also different customs between Catholics and Protestants. There’s some interesting but grim stuff about arranged marriages in the West of Ireland, with girls being dragged to the altar by their fathers, bathed in tears, to marry men they hadn’t a notion for. “The Chief time for marriages is from Christmas until Lent, being the season of the year when people have the most leisure for settling such business.” (page 55). But not all marriages were arranged. Couples mostly seemed to select each other in the ways we would recognise today. Another factor was that marriage was the only thing they could look to, to break the miserableness of their existence. “Perhaps the strongest motives urging young people towards early marriages were the wretchedness of their living conditions and their realization that no ordinary amount of self-denial or industry gave promise of better times. Contemporaries frequently regarded early marriage as one of the evils of poor living conditions.” (p57). Anyway, as I say, that study contains quite a bit on marriage customs. Some couples eloped (if they had the means). For years the main ferry between Scotland and the Belfast area was between Portpatrick in Wigtownshire and Donaghadee in Co. Down. So couples eloped to Portpatrick to get married. Scottish law then (and now) allows a couple to marry
Re: [CoTyroneMailingList] Marriage Customs
Thanks for your insight and history lesson Elwyn; that must have been quite some course of study you attended. Wonderful stuff, Len Swindley Sent from Mail for Windows 10 From: Dorothy Gaunt via CoTyroneList Sent: Monday, 22 June 2020 5:41 AM To: CoTyroneIreland.com Mailing List Cc: Dorothy Gaunt Subject: Re: [CoTyroneMailingList] Marriage Customs Thank you Elwyn. Absolutely fascinating. Dorothy Sent from my iPad > On 22/06/2020, at 5:56 AM, elwyn soutter via CoTyroneList > wrote: > > Marion, > > > > I suspect that a full answer to your interesting question could fill a > hundred pages. > > > > One source you might want to investigate is: “The Population of Ireland > 1750 – 1845” by KH Connell, published in Oxford 1950. One of the many > causes of the problems that plagued Ireland in the 1800s was the fact that > there had been a massive population explosion. It went up from 3 million in > 1741 to 8 million in 1841. (It’s only 6 million today). No-one is entirely > certain why. A reduction in neo-natal death rates was a factor. Connell > also speculates that they started to marry younger and that consequently > the reproductive rate ( R ) increased significantly. And as we all know > these days, if the R number rises significantly you can see an exponential > increase in whatever you are studying. In this case, children. > > > > The book therefore spends quite a bit of time discussing the customs > surrounding marriage, and also different customs between Catholics and > Protestants. There’s some interesting but grim stuff about arranged > marriages in the West of Ireland, with girls being dragged to the altar by > their fathers, bathed in tears, to marry men they hadn’t a notion for. “The > Chief time for marriages is from Christmas until Lent, being the season of > the year when people have the most leisure for settling such business.” > (page 55). > > > > But not all marriages were arranged. Couples mostly seemed to select each > other in the ways we would recognise today. Another factor was that > marriage was the only thing they could look to, to break the miserableness > of their existence. “Perhaps the strongest motives urging young people > towards early marriages were the wretchedness of their living conditions > and their realization that no ordinary amount of self-denial or industry > gave promise of better times. Contemporaries frequently regarded early > marriage as one of the evils of poor living conditions.” (p57). > > > > Anyway, as I say, that study contains quite a bit on marriage customs. > > > > Some couples eloped (if they had the means). For years the main ferry > between Scotland and the Belfast area was between Portpatrick in > Wigtownshire and Donaghadee in Co. Down. So couples eloped to Portpatrick > to get married. Scottish law then (and now) allows a couple to marry at 16, > and without parental consent. (In England and Ireland parental consent was > required till you were 21). Some folk may have heard of people running off > to Gretna Green to get married. Gretna Green is on the border between > England & Scotland and so was handy if you were English and in a hurry to > get married, but Portpatrick was the equivalent if coming from Ireland. > Here’s a link to marriages in Portpatrick involving couples from Ireland, > going back to 1721. Most of these are presumably elopements. I can’t think > of any other reason for marrying there: > > > > http://www.ulsterancestry.com/free/ShowFreePage-39.html#gsc.tab=0 > > > > > > The Ulster-Scots are an interesting group. I did a course at Queens > University, Belfast a year or two back on migration into Ireland. The > lecturer drew a contrast between various invaders such as the Vikings and > the Ulster – Scots. In spite of being present for 300 years or so, the > Vikings left very little impact on Ireland. There’s a few place names such > as Strangford (strong fjord) and the odd surname which may point to Norse > origins, but by and large there’s not much sign of them. Part of the reason > was that they only settled around the coast, and not in sufficient numbers > to dominate the population. But another factor was that they didn’t bring > any women with them. If they needed women then the answer was usually a > bit of rape and pillage amongst the locals. However the significance of > this was that if they settled and remained in Ireland, as some undoubtedly > did, then they quickly integrated into the local community and their Norse > identity was soon lost. In contrast, the Scots came with equal numbers of > men and women. They tended to marry each other and kept their separate > identity. They often looked down on the nativ
Re: [CoTyroneMailingList] Marriage Customs
All of theses historical readings are so interesting and informative. Thank you so much. Sent from my iPad > On Jun 21, 2020, at 2:41 PM, Dorothy Gaunt via CoTyroneList > wrote: > > Thank you Elwyn. Absolutely fascinating. > Dorothy > > Sent from my iPad > >> On 22/06/2020, at 5:56 AM, elwyn soutter via CoTyroneList >> wrote: >> >> Marion, >> >> >> >> I suspect that a full answer to your interesting question could fill a >> hundred pages. >> >> >> >> One source you might want to investigate is: “The Population of Ireland >> 1750 – 1845” by KH Connell, published in Oxford 1950. One of the many >> causes of the problems that plagued Ireland in the 1800s was the fact that >> there had been a massive population explosion. It went up from 3 million in >> 1741 to 8 million in 1841. (It’s only 6 million today). No-one is entirely >> certain why. A reduction in neo-natal death rates was a factor. Connell >> also speculates that they started to marry younger and that consequently >> the reproductive rate ( R ) increased significantly. And as we all know >> these days, if the R number rises significantly you can see an exponential >> increase in whatever you are studying. In this case, children. >> >> >> >> The book therefore spends quite a bit of time discussing the customs >> surrounding marriage, and also different customs between Catholics and >> Protestants. There’s some interesting but grim stuff about arranged >> marriages in the West of Ireland, with girls being dragged to the altar by >> their fathers, bathed in tears, to marry men they hadn’t a notion for. “The >> Chief time for marriages is from Christmas until Lent, being the season of >> the year when people have the most leisure for settling such business.” >> (page 55). >> >> >> >> But not all marriages were arranged. Couples mostly seemed to select each >> other in the ways we would recognise today. Another factor was that >> marriage was the only thing they could look to, to break the miserableness >> of their existence. “Perhaps the strongest motives urging young people >> towards early marriages were the wretchedness of their living conditions >> and their realization that no ordinary amount of self-denial or industry >> gave promise of better times. Contemporaries frequently regarded early >> marriage as one of the evils of poor living conditions.” (p57). >> >> >> >> Anyway, as I say, that study contains quite a bit on marriage customs. >> >> >> >> Some couples eloped (if they had the means). For years the main ferry >> between Scotland and the Belfast area was between Portpatrick in >> Wigtownshire and Donaghadee in Co. Down. So couples eloped to Portpatrick >> to get married. Scottish law then (and now) allows a couple to marry at 16, >> and without parental consent. (In England and Ireland parental consent was >> required till you were 21). Some folk may have heard of people running off >> to Gretna Green to get married. Gretna Green is on the border between >> England & Scotland and so was handy if you were English and in a hurry to >> get married, but Portpatrick was the equivalent if coming from Ireland. >> Here’s a link to marriages in Portpatrick involving couples from Ireland, >> going back to 1721. Most of these are presumably elopements. I can’t think >> of any other reason for marrying there: >> >> >> >> http://www.ulsterancestry.com/free/ShowFreePage-39.html#gsc.tab=0 >> >> >> >> >> >> The Ulster-Scots are an interesting group. I did a course at Queens >> University, Belfast a year or two back on migration into Ireland. The >> lecturer drew a contrast between various invaders such as the Vikings and >> the Ulster – Scots. In spite of being present for 300 years or so, the >> Vikings left very little impact on Ireland. There’s a few place names such >> as Strangford (strong fjord) and the odd surname which may point to Norse >> origins, but by and large there’s not much sign of them. Part of the reason >> was that they only settled around the coast, and not in sufficient numbers >> to dominate the population. But another factor was that they didn’t bring >> any women with them. If they needed women then the answer was usually a >> bit of rape and pillage amongst the locals. However the significance of >> this was that if they settled and remained in Ireland, as some undoubtedly >> did, then they quickly integrated into the local community and their Norse >> identity was soon lost. In contrast, the Scots came with equal numbers of >> men and women. They tended to marry each other and kept their separate >> identity. They often looked down on the native Irish and on Catholicism >> which was the denomination that most had fought to get rid of in Scotland >> in the 1500s, so that limited the tendency for inter-marriage, though for >> all that there were plenty of mixed marriages. But overall the Ulster – >> Scots, a high percentage of whom were Presbyterian tended to marry each >> other.
Re: [CoTyroneMailingList] Marriage Customs
Thank you Elwyn. Absolutely fascinating. Dorothy Sent from my iPad > On 22/06/2020, at 5:56 AM, elwyn soutter via CoTyroneList > wrote: > > Marion, > > > > I suspect that a full answer to your interesting question could fill a > hundred pages. > > > > One source you might want to investigate is: “The Population of Ireland > 1750 – 1845” by KH Connell, published in Oxford 1950. One of the many > causes of the problems that plagued Ireland in the 1800s was the fact that > there had been a massive population explosion. It went up from 3 million in > 1741 to 8 million in 1841. (It’s only 6 million today). No-one is entirely > certain why. A reduction in neo-natal death rates was a factor. Connell > also speculates that they started to marry younger and that consequently > the reproductive rate ( R ) increased significantly. And as we all know > these days, if the R number rises significantly you can see an exponential > increase in whatever you are studying. In this case, children. > > > > The book therefore spends quite a bit of time discussing the customs > surrounding marriage, and also different customs between Catholics and > Protestants. There’s some interesting but grim stuff about arranged > marriages in the West of Ireland, with girls being dragged to the altar by > their fathers, bathed in tears, to marry men they hadn’t a notion for. “The > Chief time for marriages is from Christmas until Lent, being the season of > the year when people have the most leisure for settling such business.” > (page 55). > > > > But not all marriages were arranged. Couples mostly seemed to select each > other in the ways we would recognise today. Another factor was that > marriage was the only thing they could look to, to break the miserableness > of their existence. “Perhaps the strongest motives urging young people > towards early marriages were the wretchedness of their living conditions > and their realization that no ordinary amount of self-denial or industry > gave promise of better times. Contemporaries frequently regarded early > marriage as one of the evils of poor living conditions.” (p57). > > > > Anyway, as I say, that study contains quite a bit on marriage customs. > > > > Some couples eloped (if they had the means). For years the main ferry > between Scotland and the Belfast area was between Portpatrick in > Wigtownshire and Donaghadee in Co. Down. So couples eloped to Portpatrick > to get married. Scottish law then (and now) allows a couple to marry at 16, > and without parental consent. (In England and Ireland parental consent was > required till you were 21). Some folk may have heard of people running off > to Gretna Green to get married. Gretna Green is on the border between > England & Scotland and so was handy if you were English and in a hurry to > get married, but Portpatrick was the equivalent if coming from Ireland. > Here’s a link to marriages in Portpatrick involving couples from Ireland, > going back to 1721. Most of these are presumably elopements. I can’t think > of any other reason for marrying there: > > > > http://www.ulsterancestry.com/free/ShowFreePage-39.html#gsc.tab=0 > > > > > > The Ulster-Scots are an interesting group. I did a course at Queens > University, Belfast a year or two back on migration into Ireland. The > lecturer drew a contrast between various invaders such as the Vikings and > the Ulster – Scots. In spite of being present for 300 years or so, the > Vikings left very little impact on Ireland. There’s a few place names such > as Strangford (strong fjord) and the odd surname which may point to Norse > origins, but by and large there’s not much sign of them. Part of the reason > was that they only settled around the coast, and not in sufficient numbers > to dominate the population. But another factor was that they didn’t bring > any women with them. If they needed women then the answer was usually a > bit of rape and pillage amongst the locals. However the significance of > this was that if they settled and remained in Ireland, as some undoubtedly > did, then they quickly integrated into the local community and their Norse > identity was soon lost. In contrast, the Scots came with equal numbers of > men and women. They tended to marry each other and kept their separate > identity. They often looked down on the native Irish and on Catholicism > which was the denomination that most had fought to get rid of in Scotland > in the 1500s, so that limited the tendency for inter-marriage, though for > all that there were plenty of mixed marriages. But overall the Ulster – > Scots, a high percentage of whom were Presbyterian tended to marry each > other. (There were Scots Catholics and Episcopalians who settled in > Ireland too, but the majority were Presbyterian). This tendency can be > found in Ireland even today and in part accounts for the separate identity > that many in Ulster still feel, which is why they often identify as Ulster- >
Re: [CoTyroneMailingList] Marriage Customs
Thanks Bobby. I found the article and read it with interest. I didn’t realise marriages took place at home and it certainly answered some of my questions. I will have to try and locate the journals you mentioned to find out more. Thanks for all your help. Regards Marion Sent from Mail for Windows 10 From: Robert Forrest Sent: 21 June 2020 13:23 To: CoTyroneIreland.com Mailing List Cc: Marion Subject: Re: [CoTyroneMailingList] Marriage Customs Marion - you have touched upon a theme where there might be scholarly articles in some of the more obscure publications of Irish History (I am thinking particularly of Irish and Economic & Social History Journal published from 1974). By way of introduction I wrote a short piece on marriage pre-civil registration reflecting on marriages in an early period based on a case study of the Coleraine and Roe Valley (Limavady) districts. http://www.ulsterheritage.com/history/marriage_in_ireland.htm It doesn't cover all of your questions but hope you find it interesting. Regards Bobby Forrest From: CoTyroneList on behalf of Marion via CoTyroneList Sent: 21 June 2020 12:10 To: CoTyroneIreland.com Mailing List Cc: Marion Subject: [CoTyroneMailingList] Marriage Customs Hello all, I wonder if anyone can tell me or suggest where I might find out about marriage customs in nineteenth century Ireland, particularly amongst Ulster Scots. Were they based on social, cultural or religious factors ? Did the bride and groom have much input ? Were protestant and Roman Catholic approaches very different? Also what were the attitudes to illegitimacy by family members and society at large? How were the mothers and children treated ? Thank you in advance for your help ! Regards Marion Shephard Sent from Mail for Windows 10 ___ CoTyroneList Mailing List Mailing List Email Address: CoTyroneList@cotyroneireland.com Change Your Preferences: http://cotyroneireland.com/mailman/listinfo/cotyronelist_cotyroneireland.com Mailing List Archive: https://goo.gl/mQCKrY ___ CoTyroneList Mailing List Mailing List Email Address: CoTyroneList@cotyroneireland.com Change Your Preferences: http://cotyroneireland.com/mailman/listinfo/cotyronelist_cotyroneireland.com Mailing List Archive: https://goo.gl/mQCKrY
Re: [CoTyroneMailingList] Marriage Customs
Marion, I suspect that a full answer to your interesting question could fill a hundred pages. One source you might want to investigate is: “The Population of Ireland 1750 – 1845” by KH Connell, published in Oxford 1950. One of the many causes of the problems that plagued Ireland in the 1800s was the fact that there had been a massive population explosion. It went up from 3 million in 1741 to 8 million in 1841. (It’s only 6 million today). No-one is entirely certain why. A reduction in neo-natal death rates was a factor. Connell also speculates that they started to marry younger and that consequently the reproductive rate ( R ) increased significantly. And as we all know these days, if the R number rises significantly you can see an exponential increase in whatever you are studying. In this case, children. The book therefore spends quite a bit of time discussing the customs surrounding marriage, and also different customs between Catholics and Protestants. There’s some interesting but grim stuff about arranged marriages in the West of Ireland, with girls being dragged to the altar by their fathers, bathed in tears, to marry men they hadn’t a notion for. “The Chief time for marriages is from Christmas until Lent, being the season of the year when people have the most leisure for settling such business.” (page 55). But not all marriages were arranged. Couples mostly seemed to select each other in the ways we would recognise today. Another factor was that marriage was the only thing they could look to, to break the miserableness of their existence. “Perhaps the strongest motives urging young people towards early marriages were the wretchedness of their living conditions and their realization that no ordinary amount of self-denial or industry gave promise of better times. Contemporaries frequently regarded early marriage as one of the evils of poor living conditions.” (p57). Anyway, as I say, that study contains quite a bit on marriage customs. Some couples eloped (if they had the means). For years the main ferry between Scotland and the Belfast area was between Portpatrick in Wigtownshire and Donaghadee in Co. Down. So couples eloped to Portpatrick to get married. Scottish law then (and now) allows a couple to marry at 16, and without parental consent. (In England and Ireland parental consent was required till you were 21). Some folk may have heard of people running off to Gretna Green to get married. Gretna Green is on the border between England & Scotland and so was handy if you were English and in a hurry to get married, but Portpatrick was the equivalent if coming from Ireland. Here’s a link to marriages in Portpatrick involving couples from Ireland, going back to 1721. Most of these are presumably elopements. I can’t think of any other reason for marrying there: http://www.ulsterancestry.com/free/ShowFreePage-39.html#gsc.tab=0 The Ulster-Scots are an interesting group. I did a course at Queens University, Belfast a year or two back on migration into Ireland. The lecturer drew a contrast between various invaders such as the Vikings and the Ulster – Scots. In spite of being present for 300 years or so, the Vikings left very little impact on Ireland. There’s a few place names such as Strangford (strong fjord) and the odd surname which may point to Norse origins, but by and large there’s not much sign of them. Part of the reason was that they only settled around the coast, and not in sufficient numbers to dominate the population. But another factor was that they didn’t bring any women with them. If they needed women then the answer was usually a bit of rape and pillage amongst the locals. However the significance of this was that if they settled and remained in Ireland, as some undoubtedly did, then they quickly integrated into the local community and their Norse identity was soon lost. In contrast, the Scots came with equal numbers of men and women. They tended to marry each other and kept their separate identity. They often looked down on the native Irish and on Catholicism which was the denomination that most had fought to get rid of in Scotland in the 1500s, so that limited the tendency for inter-marriage, though for all that there were plenty of mixed marriages. But overall the Ulster – Scots, a high percentage of whom were Presbyterian tended to marry each other. (There were Scots Catholics and Episcopalians who settled in Ireland too, but the majority were Presbyterian). This tendency can be found in Ireland even today and in part accounts for the separate identity that many in Ulster still feel, which is why they often identify as Ulster- Scots, rather than Irish. You ask about illegitimacy and the churches attitude. There was plenty of illegitimacy around. One study I read suggested that about 1% of births were illegitimate in the mid 1800s. There were local exceptions especially if there was a workhouse in the area, and workhouse births distorted the figures:
Re: [CoTyroneMailingList] Marriage Customs
This was a very interesting article. Thank you for writing it. Linda On Sunday, June 21, 2020, 05:23:52 AM PDT, Robert Forrest via CoTyroneList wrote: Marion - you have touched upon a theme where there might be scholarly articles in some of the more obscure publications of Irish History (I am thinking particularly of Irish and Economic & Social History Journal published from 1974). By way of introduction I wrote a short piece on marriage pre-civil registration reflecting on marriages in an early period based on a case study of the Coleraine and Roe Valley (Limavady) districts. http://www.ulsterheritage.com/history/marriage_in_ireland.htm It doesn't cover all of your questions but hope you find it interesting. Regards Bobby Forrest From: CoTyroneList on behalf of Marion via CoTyroneList Sent: 21 June 2020 12:10 To: CoTyroneIreland.com Mailing List Cc: Marion Subject: [CoTyroneMailingList] Marriage Customs Hello all, I wonder if anyone can tell me or suggest where I might find out about marriage customs in nineteenth century Ireland, particularly amongst Ulster Scots. Were they based on social, cultural or religious factors ? Did the bride and groom have much input ? Were protestant and Roman Catholic approaches very different? Also what were the attitudes to illegitimacy by family members and society at large? How were the mothers and children treated ? Thank you in advance for your help ! Regards Marion Shephard Sent from Mail for Windows 10 ___ CoTyroneList Mailing List Mailing List Email Address: CoTyroneList@cotyroneireland.com Change Your Preferences: http://cotyroneireland.com/mailman/listinfo/cotyronelist_cotyroneireland.com Mailing List Archive: https://goo.gl/mQCKrY ___ CoTyroneList Mailing List Mailing List Email Address: CoTyroneList@cotyroneireland.com Change Your Preferences: http://cotyroneireland.com/mailman/listinfo/cotyronelist_cotyroneireland.com Mailing List Archive: https://goo.gl/mQCKrY ___ CoTyroneList Mailing List Mailing List Email Address: CoTyroneList@cotyroneireland.com Change Your Preferences: http://cotyroneireland.com/mailman/listinfo/cotyronelist_cotyroneireland.com Mailing List Archive: https://goo.gl/mQCKrY
Re: [CoTyroneMailingList] Marriage Customs
Marion - you have touched upon a theme where there might be scholarly articles in some of the more obscure publications of Irish History (I am thinking particularly of Irish and Economic & Social History Journal published from 1974). By way of introduction I wrote a short piece on marriage pre-civil registration reflecting on marriages in an early period based on a case study of the Coleraine and Roe Valley (Limavady) districts. http://www.ulsterheritage.com/history/marriage_in_ireland.htm It doesn't cover all of your questions but hope you find it interesting. Regards Bobby Forrest From: CoTyroneList on behalf of Marion via CoTyroneList Sent: 21 June 2020 12:10 To: CoTyroneIreland.com Mailing List Cc: Marion Subject: [CoTyroneMailingList] Marriage Customs Hello all, I wonder if anyone can tell me or suggest where I might find out about marriage customs in nineteenth century Ireland, particularly amongst Ulster Scots. Were they based on social, cultural or religious factors ? Did the bride and groom have much input ? Were protestant and Roman Catholic approaches very different? Also what were the attitudes to illegitimacy by family members and society at large? How were the mothers and children treated ? Thank you in advance for your help ! Regards Marion Shephard Sent from Mail for Windows 10 ___ CoTyroneList Mailing List Mailing List Email Address: CoTyroneList@cotyroneireland.com Change Your Preferences: http://cotyroneireland.com/mailman/listinfo/cotyronelist_cotyroneireland.com Mailing List Archive: https://goo.gl/mQCKrY ___ CoTyroneList Mailing List Mailing List Email Address: CoTyroneList@cotyroneireland.com Change Your Preferences: http://cotyroneireland.com/mailman/listinfo/cotyronelist_cotyroneireland.com Mailing List Archive: https://goo.gl/mQCKrY
[CoTyroneMailingList] Marriage Customs
Hello all, I wonder if anyone can tell me or suggest where I might find out about marriage customs in nineteenth century Ireland, particularly amongst Ulster Scots. Were they based on social, cultural or religious factors ? Did the bride and groom have much input ? Were protestant and Roman Catholic approaches very different? Also what were the attitudes to illegitimacy by family members and society at large? How were the mothers and children treated ? Thank you in advance for your help ! Regards Marion Shephard Sent from Mail for Windows 10 ___ CoTyroneList Mailing List Mailing List Email Address: CoTyroneList@cotyroneireland.com Change Your Preferences: http://cotyroneireland.com/mailman/listinfo/cotyronelist_cotyroneireland.com Mailing List Archive: https://goo.gl/mQCKrY
