Re: [CTRL] JESUS WAS JEWISH ?

[Tatman, Robert]

 -Caveat Lector-

FWIW, in Robert Graves's *King Jesus*, Mary Magdalene is portrayed as the
high priestess of Astarte/Asherah, who attempts to "educate" Jesus about the
reality behind the myths he has been taught. I'm not saying that Graves's
depiction is necessarily accurate, but it presents an interesting
alternative to conventional scholarship.

 -Original Message-
 From: Tenorlove [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
 Sent: Friday, December 31, 1999 1:08 AM
 To:   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Subject:  Re: [CTRL] JESUS WAS JEWISH ?

  -Caveat Lector-

 As for Mary Magdalene, she is variously described in the Gospels as "a
 sinner" and "out of whom went seven devils." Her hometown, Magdala or
 Migdal, was the headquarters for an Astarte cult that had a seven-stage
 initiation. Astarte's mascot, like MM's, was the dove. IF MM was a
 prostitute, it would have been in connection with the sacred
 prostitution which took place within the Astarte cult. If she were an
 Astarte initiate, she would have been a sinner in the eyes of all four
 of the Gospel writers. The prostitute tradition did not come about
 until the second century A.D.



DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

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Re: [CTRL] To all you chicken littles and wolf criers (RE: By the time that you read this)

[Tatman, Robert]

 -Caveat Lector-

I'm waiting for everyone in Europe and North America to log on at 12:01 AM
(local) January 1, to see whether the Internet is experiencing any problems,
thereby causing the whole global network to crash... Did someone mention
"self-fulfilling prophecy?"

 -Original Message-
 From: Tenorlove [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
 Sent: Friday, December 31, 1999 7:42 AM
 To:   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Subject:  Re: [CTRL] To all you chicken littles and wolf criers (RE:
 By the time that  you read this)

  -Caveat Lector-

 As of 7:43 am Eastern, the only thing of note is that New Zealand's
 cell phone network was overloaded, like it is every other holiday.


DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

Archives Available at:
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Om

Re: [CTRL] Post Millenial Bonkers.

[Tatman, Robert]

 -Caveat Lector-

If you can find the books, see also Edward Whittemore's "Jerusalem Quartet":
*Jerusalem Poker*, *Sinai Tapestry*, *Jericho Mosaic*, *Quin's Shanghai
Circus*.
==
The Philadelphia Inquirer, December 31, 1999
http://www.phillynews.com/inquirer/99/Dec/31/front_page/JERU31.htm

Eccentricity turns scary to Israelis
Characters once regarded as harmless are seen as a security risk as 2000
nears.
By Barbara Demick
INQUIRER STAFF WRITER

JERUSALEM - Bobby Engel was fresh off the airplane from Los Angeles when he
first aroused suspicion. The 60-year-old Los Angeles preacher cut a striking
figure, wandering around with a Bible in one hand and a crucifix in the
other, a CD player strapped to his waist belting out Christmas carols.

"I was a one-man church," says Engel, who also goes by the nickname of
"Bobby Bible."

Palestinian police first arrested Engel in Bethlehem on Dec. 22. They
searched his hotel room so thoroughly that his talcum powder was sniffed for
explosives, and then they deported him into Israeli territory. He has since
been picked up twice by Israeli police for questioning, most recently
yesterday on the Mount of Olives - his third arrest in less than two weeks
of touring the Holy Land.

In ordinary times, Engel might have been ignored as just another harmless
eccentric treading a fine line between the devotional and the delusional.

But these are no ordinary times. The approach of 2000 has tightened nerves,
and security forces here are tolerating few eccentrics.

"I never thought that lunacy is a crime, especially in the holy land," said
Shlomo Ben-Ami, Israel's public security minister. "But one cannot deny that
people have become more sensitive because of the date."

Israeli authorities have deported about 60 Christian pilgrims since the
beginning of this year, fearing that they might set off millennial violence
or even kill themselves.

Some of the people deported had lived in Israel for many years. For example,
on Christmas Eve, the Interior Ministry started proceedings to deport a
family from Detroit with five children that had been living in caves and
abandoned farmhouses in the West Bank.

Many more Christians have been denied entry to Israel, and still others,
like Engel, are followed by police and picked up for questioning.
Jerusalem's main psychiatric hospital, Kfar Shaul, meanwhile, is bracing for
an influx of arrivals suffering from the so-called Jerusalem syndrome - the
religious delusions that sometimes afflict tourists here, causing them to
believe that they are biblical figures.

Gregory Katz, a psychiatrist specializing in the syndrome, says the hospital
has treated about 50 patients this year, up more than 40 percent from
previous years.

"They are found in the desert, dehydrated with no money, or they are out
talking about prophecy and people get into an argument with them," Katz
said.

In a study of 151 cases to be published next month in a British psychiatric
journal, the hospital's doctors found that most of those afflicted were
American tourists. Jews, as well as Christians, come down with the Jerusalem
syndrome - with one key difference.

"It is more popular for the Christians to think they are a prophet," Katz
said. "The Jews often think they are the Messiah."

Jerusalem always has been a magnet for religious oddballs. No less an
authority on lunacy than Sigmund Freud called the city a "tragically mad
land . . . that has never produced anything but religions, sacred frenzies
and presumptuous attempts to overcome the outer world of appearances by
means of the inner world of wishful thinking."

Never has it been more true than on the eve of 2000, which some evangelical
Christians believe is a likely date for Jesus' return to earth or the onset
of an apocalyptic war. Authorities' fear is that some madman might try to
hasten the apocalypse by an act of terrorism.

The arrest this month in nearby Jordan of 13 suspected terrorists linked to
Saudi militant Osama bin Laden exacerbated the fears.

"If somebody wanted to create a drama, this is a fairly good date," said
Ben-Ami. ". . . All kinds of groups could be interested in a disruption at
this highly sensitive moment."

Security is tightest in Jerusalem's Old City, especially at the Temple
Mount, the plateau that once held the Second Jewish Temple and that is now
the site of the gold-topped Dome of the Rock and Al-Aqsa mosques. The Temple
Mount is a frequent target for Christian and Jewish zealots, who believe
that the destruction of the Islamic holy places will augur the coming of the
Messiah.

Today, concerns will be heightened because it is also the busiest day of the
year at Al-Aqsa - more than 400,000 worshipers are expected at the mosque
for the last Friday of Ramadan, the month-long Muslim holy period.

All of this is perplexing to many religious Christian tourists.

Robert Seales, a 42-year-old tour guide who moved to Jerusalem from New
Zealand recently, says that 

Re: [CTRL] To all you chicken littles and wolf criers (RE: By the timethat you read this)

[Tatman, Robert]

 -Caveat Lector-

I wasn't thinking of the phone system as such, but of the Internet. A number
of government agencies will be taking down their websites to avoid problems,
and I have a feeling that CNN and other big news sites will crash just after
midnight. Of course, Microsoft will also crash, but that's normal. As for
myself, I plan to be in bed at midnight...

 -Original Message-
 From: Bard [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
 Sent: Friday, December 31, 1999 11:48 AM
 To:   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Subject:  Re: [CTRL] To all you chicken littles and wolf criers (RE:
 By thetimethat  you read this)

  -Caveat Lector-

 Mr. Tatman, If you wish to 'crash' the phone system, then place a call
 to a friend between 12:01AM thru 12:15AM.
 lol
 Bard

 "Tatman, Robert" wrote:
 
   -Caveat Lector-
 
  I'm waiting for everyone in Europe and North America to log on at 12:01
 AM
  (local) January 1, to see whether the Internet is experiencing any
 problems,
  thereby causing the whole global network to crash... Did someone mention
  "self-fulfilling prophecy?"
 


DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

Archives Available at:
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Om

Re: [CTRL] Skeptic News - Thu.1 - y2k minus 2

[Tatman, Robert]

 -Caveat Lector-

That's "frumious bandersnatchi," as anyone who has read Larry Niven's Known
Space stories knows! Sheesh. You'd think the toves weren't slithy, and that
they weren't gyre and gimbal in the wabe... And as for the Jub-Jub Bird...
Is *everything* a snark?

 -Original Message-
 From: Ric Carter [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
 Sent: Thursday, December 30, 1999 1:59 PM
 To:   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Subject:  [CTRL] Skeptic News - Thu.1 - y2k minus 2

No fruminous bandersnachii were harmed to produce this bulletin.
Honest.

DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

Archives Available at:
http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html

http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/

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Om

Re: [CTRL] Got this in my email

[Tatman, Robert]

 -Caveat Lector-

And *these* are the turkeys who impeached Clinton? Talk about the pot and
the kettle... Or perhaps the mote in your brother's eye and the beam in your
own would be more appropriate, given the GOP's current liking for biblical
morality. Has anyone suggested to them that they are in danger of being
hoist by their own collective petard?

 -Original Message-
 From: Tenorlove [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
 Sent: Thursday, December 30, 1999 4:59 PM
 To:   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Subject:  [CTRL] Got this in my email

  -Caveat Lector-

 I didn't get this from BARD, unless he is one of my relatives in
 disguisesnort But it reads like something he would send!
 

 Can you imagine working at the following Company? It has a little over
 500 employees with the following statistics:

 *29 have been accused of spousal abuse
 *7 have been arrested for fraud
 *19 have been accused of writing bad checks
 *117 have bankrupted at least two businesses
 *3 have been arrested for assault
 *71 cannot get a credit card due to bad credit
 *14 have been arrested on drug-related charges

 *8 have been arrested for shoplifting
 *21 are current defendants in lawsuits
 *In 1998 alone, 84 were stopped for drunk driving



 Can you guess which organization this is? Give up?





 It's the 535 members of your United States Congress. The same group
 that
 perpetually cranks out hundreds upon hundreds of new laws signed to
 keep
 the rest of us in line.


DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

Archives Available at:
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http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/

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Om

Re: [CTRL] Calif. Initiative Against SPAM

[Tatman, Robert]

 -Caveat Lector-

Now *this* is exactly the approach that makes the most sense: require mass
marketers to have a specific, affirmative statement that you want to get
junk mail/faxes/phone calls/e-mail...and prohibit them from sending anything
to anyone from whom they do not have such a statement. In fact, it makes so
much sense that I'm quite sure it will never be enacted; the mass marketers
have too many legislators in their pockets. But it's still something that we
can work toward.

 -Original Message-
 From: Bill Kingsbury [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
 Sent: Thursday, December 30, 1999 4:24 PM
 To:   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Subject:  [CTRL] Calif. Initiative Against SPAM

  -Caveat Lector-

  http://www.currents.net/newstoday/99/12/23/news7.html


  Calif. Initiative Against SPAM

  snip

  Under federal law, consumers can bar marketers from
  contacting them by e-mail and telephone only through
  contacting individual advertisers and demanding to be placed
  on their do-not-contact lists.

  In contrast, Johnson claims that the Voter Revolt initiative
  would assume that consumers do not want unsolicited calls and
  e-mails and would forbid marketers from contacting anyone who
  had not affirmatively opted to receive such communications.
  This is known as an opt-in plan, as opposed to the federal
  system, which is known as opt-out.

  snip

DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

Archives Available at:
http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html

http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/

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Om

Re: [CTRL] Bauer: Gay [homo]Couples Akin to Terrorism

[Tatman, Robert]

 -Caveat Lector-

The "nuclear family" as a widespread social phenomenon emerged in the United
States only during the late 1940's, as ex-GI's returning from the war took
advantage of VA loans to acquire their own homes. It flourished during the
1950's and early '60's, but began to disappear in the late '60's, as
alternative forms of the family began to take shape. These alternatives were
not necessarily multi-generational families (although for a good bit of my
life I lived with three and even four generations under one or two roofs);
they included unmarried couples, both straight and gay, in short-term
relationships; ditto, but in long-term committed relationships; multiple
couples sharing living space; polymorphous-perverse assemblages; and every
conceivable combination in between. As divorce has become more accepted,
something often called "serial monogamy" has come into being...i.e., being
faithful to one partner at a time. (The multi-generational arrangements are
better for children, of course.) Another widespread phenomenon is
grandparents raising grandchildren, for a variety of reasons.

If anyone can find the nuclear family in all of this hodgepodge, go to it...

 -Original Message-
 From: Ynr Chyldz Wyld [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
 Sent: Tuesday, December 28, 1999 11:48 PM
 To:   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Subject:  Re: [CTRL] Bauer: Gay [homo]Couples Akin to Terrorism

  -Caveat Lector-

 From: "nessie" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  What exactly are "homosexual values" and why would the NWO promote them?

 Well, all the gays I've known over the years were staunch Reaganite
 conservatives...


  Good riddance. The nuclear family is a very recent and not very wide
  spread abberation. Most people on earth live in extended families of at
  least three generations.

 And not necessarily blood kin.

 What is now called 'the nuclear family' is, as you say, a recent
 phenomenon,
 and quite frankly is not all that great, in my estimation...

 It encourages a self-centeredness that older, 'tribal' societies (which
 includes
 most of Europe up until the 19th century) didn't have...


  Most people have always lived in extended
  families since before we came down from the trees.

 And those extended families then gathered into 'tribal' units, called
 villages
 and towns.


  The nuclear family fragments and atomizes
  society into easily managable consumer units. It fosters mental illness,
  particularly neurosis, because it limits the child's role models to two
  and because it discourages community.

 Exactly.  God save us from the cult of the 'nuclear family'


 June  ;-)



DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

Archives Available at:
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Om

Re: [CTRL] Explosives found in alleged terrorist's car were RDX a nd HMTD

[Tatman, Robert]

 -Caveat Lector-

If I were infiltrating the United States with the mission of conducting
terrorist operations, I sure as hell would not try to bring my own
explosives across the border in such a way that they would be found by a
routine inspection. I presume that this guy had a network with which he was
planning to hook up--it would be a lot easier to obtain the munitions once
he was inside the country. This whole thing smells like a setup to
me...either a sting run by the FBI and the RCMP, or (more likely) a snark
hunt designed to feed "terrorist hysteria" in both the U.S. and Canada.

 -Original Message-
 From: Richard Sampson [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
 Sent: Wednesday, December 29, 1999 7:26 AM
 To:   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Subject:  [CTRL] Explosives found in alleged terrorist's car were RDX
 and HMTD

  -Caveat Lector-

 http://www.ab.sympatico.ca/news/Fullstories/n122814.html


  SYMPATICO NEWSEXPRESS NATIONAL
  NEWS
  Wed, Dec 29th

  Explosives found in alleged
  terrorist's car more sophisticated
  than originally thought

snip

DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

Archives Available at:
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Om

Re: [CTRL] Explosives found in alleged terrorist's car were RDX a nd HMTD

[Tatman, Robert]

 -Caveat Lector-

Even granting that he might have been a mule, it still makes no sense to me
to try to bring the explosives into the U.S., when they are probably more
available here than they are in Canada. That's why I think this whole deal
is a snark hunt designed to fuel anti-terrorist hysteria. As for your other
point, why, sir, it's *un-Amurrican* not to try to make a buck wherever you
can! Of course you're right...but our market-worshipping masters will never
accept it.

 -Original Message-
 From: nessie [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
 Sent: Wednesday, December 29, 1999 2:02 PM
 To:   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Subject:  Re: [CTRL] Explosives found in alleged terrorist's car were
 RDX a nd HMTD

  -Caveat Lector-

 [EMAIL PROTECTED],Internet writes:
 If I were infiltrating the United States with the mission of conducting
 terrorist operations, I sure as hell would not try to bring my own
 explosives across the border in such a way that they would be found by a
 routine inspection. I presume that this guy had a network



 He was  mule. One gets caught, ten get through. It is no more possible to
 keep out explosives than it is to keep out drugs. It can't be done. We
 must adopt a different strategy. I suggest that we stop pissing the whole
 world off in order to make a lousy buck.



DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

Archives Available at:
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Om

Re: [CTRL] Do They Know Something In D.C. That They Aren't Tellin g?????

[Tatman, Robert]

 -Caveat Lector-

Naturally D.C.'s Y2K warning is worse than everyone else's--that government
has been incompetent for so long, regardless of who was running it, that ANY
incident, no matter how minor, becomes a major public disaster when it hits
D.C. Just look at the way they handle the one heavy snowfall they get every
year...they are NEVER prepared for it, and the entire city goes into
paralysis. This warning isn't so much about Y2K as it is about D.C. itself.

And please listen up, people...I'm not talking about the fact that D.C.'s
government is overwhelmingly black and Democrat. It doesn't matter whether
it's black Democrats in City Hall or white Republicans in Congress...D.C. is
now, always has been, and, I daresay, always will be utterly and
unredeemably corrupt and incompetent. The Congress could outsource D.C.'s
government to the Disney Corporation, for all I know, and it wouldn't make a
scrap of difference. They'd be better off making D.C. the personal fief of
the House Speaker, and channel all the graft into his pocket--that way at
least we'd know where the buck was stopping...

 -Original Message-
 From: William Shannon [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
 Sent: Wednesday, December 29, 1999 3:29 PM
 To:   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Subject:  [CTRL] Do They Know Something In D.C. That They Aren't
 Telling?

  -Caveat Lector-

 December 28, 1999


 2000 warning in D.C. more dire than most
 By Ronald J. Hansen
 THE WASHINGTON TIMES


snip

DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

Archives Available at:
http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html

http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/

To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email:
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Om

[CTRL] California explosives theft probed

[Tatman, Robert]

 -Caveat Lector-

http://www.msnbc.com/msn/347663.asp

California explosives theft probed

Second large heist in a month worries law enforcement agencies


MSNBC staff and wire reports

Dec. 29 - As a private New Year's Eve party in Seattle's Space Needle became
the latest victim of millennial terrorism fears, investigators on Wednesday
were looking for clues in the theft of 200 pounds of explosives from a
police bunker in California - the second heist of large amounts of
explosives this month.

DYNAMITE, GUNPOWDER and the military plastic explosive C4 were stolen from a
police bomb-squad bunker near Fresno, raising fears of New Year's Eve
violence. But the blasting caps were left behind, prompting one expert to
suggest there wasn't much to worry about.
The explosives - 125 pounds of dynamite and C4, plus 75 pounds of gunpowder
- were stolen between Saturday and Monday from the reinforced concrete
bunker 20 miles northeast of Fresno.

"We have a great concern, and we're not going to hide that concern," said
Fresno Police Chief Ed Winchester.

'THREE LEVELS OF SECURITY'
Police Lt. Andy Hall said the thieves broke through "three levels of
security" - a fence topped with barbed wire, several locks and a heavy steel
door - to gain entry to the bunker, which is half-embedded in a hill.

"We don't know if it was connectedin any way to ... the New Year's Eve
celebration, and we hate to speculate on anything like that. But we're
certainly taking it as a breach of security and a high risk factor," he
said.

Despite the theft, Fresno Mayor Jim Patterson said the city's millennium
celebrations will go on as planned.

Authorities said the danger posed by the explosives would depend on the
expertise of the thieves.

Hall said a demolition expert could "take down a high-rise" with the amount
of explosives taken. "But if you put it all in a box and set it next to a
wall, it wouldn't do much other than to destroy some of that wall," he said.


But Mark Loizeaux, president of Controlled Demolition Inc. in Maryland, said
the danger was minimal since the blasting caps weren't stolen.

'CHILDISH PRANK' SUSPECTED
"The people don't know what they were doing, or they certainly would have
taken the detonators. It sounds like a childish prank," said Loizeaux, whose
company has demolished more than 1,200 buildings. "The gasoline in your gas
tank is technically more dangerous than this product, because you can set it
off with a match."

Last week, authorities reported that nearly 1,000 pounds of explosives were
stolen from a flagstone quarry north of Flagstaff, Ariz.

Investigators from the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms have not
identified any suspects in the theft of about 750 pounds of ammonium
nitrate, 225 pounds of dynamite, 6,000 feet of detonation cord and roughly
20 blasting caps.

The materials are commonly used in mining, but also could be used to make a
bomb, authorities said. Ammonium nitrate was the main ingredient in the
4,800-pound bomb used to blow up the Alfred P. Murrah Federal Building in
Oklahoma City in 1995, in which 168 people were killed.

The Arizona theft has not been linked to any terroristic threat. But the
amount of explosives taken - enough to level a high-rise - has raised
concerns and suspicions.

SEATTLE CANCELS CELEBRATION
Such concerns on Tuesday caused the city of Seattle to cancel its planned
New Year's Eve celebration, which had been expected to attract 50,000
people.

Concern in the city has been growing since Dec. 14, when suspected terrorist
Ahmed Ressam was arrested at the U.S.-Canadian border with alleged
bomb-making materials packed into his rental car. Investigators found that
Ressam, an Algerian who had been living in Canada, had booked a motel room
within blocks of the Seattle Center.

The decision to cancel the celebration at the city's Seattle Center claimed
its final victim late Tuesday, when organizers of a private party planned
for the Space Needle said they too were staying away.

Party organizer Wendy Warren said the gala millennial event planned a decade
earlier by a group of friends and family members from Portland, Ore., had
been scrapped. She gave no reason for the decision, but other members of the
group said fears of violence were behind the action.

Dean Nelson, the president of the Space Needle Corp., told the Seattle
Post-Intelligencer, said he was "disappointed."

He would not say how much Warren's group had spent to rent the Space Needle,
nor would he say whether she would get any of her money back.

Earlier Tuesday, Seattle Mayor Paul Schell defended his decision to cancel
the city's New Year's Eve bash even though no specific threat to the city
had been uncovered, saying, "Though we are comfortable that Seattle is not a
target (of terrorists), the FBI can't assure us that there's no risk."

Schell cited the Ressam's arrest two weeks earlier in nearby Port Angeles,
Wash., the need to have police available to respond to possible Y2K computer
problems and the 

Re: [CTRL] Bug at hotmail

[Tatman, Robert]

 -Caveat Lector-

You've been lucky. I've used Hotmail, Yahoo, and Netscape WebMail, and had
problems with all three. To be fair about it, Hotmail seems to have ironed
out a lot of their problems now.

 -Original Message-
 From: pennie hammons [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
 Sent: Tuesday, December 28, 1999 1:27 AM
 To:   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Subject:  Re: [CTRL] Bug at hotmail

  -Caveat Lector-

 I have had my Hotmail account for 2 years and have never had a problem
 with
 it...Pennie


 From: "Tatman, Robert" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Reply-To: Conspiracy Theory Research List [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Subject: Re: [CTRL] Bug at hotmail
 Date: Mon, 27 Dec 1999 12:37:19 -0500
 
   -Caveat Lector-
 
 Hotmail has been buggy since its creation (1996?). It's notorious for
 crashing. All of the Web-based e-mail services have problems, but
 Hotmail's
 historically been about the worst, perhaps because they've been around
 longer and have more experience at screwing up. And I can't say that
 Hotmail
 has improved noticeably since Microsquish took them over.
 


DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

Archives Available at:
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Om

Re: [CTRL] Bill Z. Bubb

[Tatman, Robert]

 -Caveat Lector-

You don't know Bill? His cousin R.E. Mann has the Persia concession.

 -Original Message-
 From: Kathryn R Smith [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
 Sent: Tuesday, December 28, 1999 1:49 AM
 To:   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Subject:  [CTRL] Bill Z. Bubb

  -Caveat Lector-

 "Intriguing" name to say the least

  So glad you could join us. I'm glad that He watches over me.
  Otherwise
  how would I ever face life?
 
  Bill Z. Bubb
 



DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

Archives Available at:
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Om

[CTRL] Smoking Marijuana Increases Head and Throat Cancer Risk

[Tatman, Robert]

 -Caveat Lector-

Smoking is smoking is smoking... Because of the unregulated nature of
marijuana production and sale, marijuana growers have no incentive to
control the amount of tar in their product. In addition, most marijuana
smokers hold the smoke in the respiratory tract far longer than is normal
with tobacco smoke. Verb. sap.

http://www.medscape.com/reuters/eline/tue/t1227-3f.html

Smoking Marijuana Increases Head And Neck Cancer Risk

NEW YORK, Dec 27 (Reuters Health) -- People who smoke marijuana may be more
likely than those who do not smoke to develop cancer of the head and neck,
according to a report in the December 17th issue of Cancer Epidemiology
Biomarker and Prevention.

"Many people may think marijuana is harmless, but it's not," said study
author Dr. Zuo-Feng Zhang, in a statement issued by the University of
California, Los Angeles.

The more often each day a person smokes marijuana, and the longer they
continue to smoke it, the greater their chance of developing cancer in
places such as the mouth, tongue, larynx or pharynx, according to the study
by Zhang, of UCLA's Jonsson Comprehensive Cancer Center, and colleagues.

The researchers compared marijuana, alcohol and tobacco use in 173 patients
who had cancer of the head and neck with that of 176 blood donors who did
not have cancer.

When they eliminated other factors that contribute to cancer, including
smoking and alcohol intake, they found that people who smoked marijuana at
any point during their lifetime were 2.6 times more likely to develop head
and neck cancer compared with people who had never smoked marijuana.

The risk increased in relation to the amount of the drug used and the number
of years a person smoked marijuana.

"If you smoke a little, your risk increases a little," Zhang said. "If you
smoke a lot, your risk increases a lot."

Marijuana may interact with a genetic susceptibility to such cancers, with
cigarette smoking, and, to a lesser extent, with alcohol consumption to
increase a person's chances of developing head and neck cancer, according to
the report.

Back in the 1960s, many people in their twenties smoked marijuana, Zhang
points out. Because cancers of the head and neck take 20 to 30 years to
develop, individuals who smoked large amounts of marijuana 20 to 30 years
ago may just now be developing head and neck cancer.

The researchers note that the blood donors, the comparison group in the
study, may have been less likely than the cancer patients to have used
marijuana.

Or it is possible that the cancer patients were more likely than the blood
donors to remember and report marijuana use.

Either factor could bias the study, which should be confirmed with more
research, the research team says.

Although it's known that the cancer-causing properties of marijuana smoke
are similar to those of cigarette smoke, this is the first study in which
investigators have looked at the relationship between smoking marijuana and
head and neck cancer, Zhang said.

It is estimated that approximately 31% of adults in the United States use
marijuana.

Cancer Epidemiology Biomarker and Prevention 1999;1071-1078.

Copyright © 1999 Reuters Ltd. All rights reserved. Republication or
redistribution of Reuters content is expressly prohibited without the prior
written consent of Reuters. Reuters shall not be liable for any errors or
delays in the content, or for any actions taken in reliance thereon.




===
Robert F. Tatman
Computer Help Desk
Desktop  LAN Services
Systems Department
Philadelphia Newspapers, Inc.
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
215.854.2729
215.854.2788
The contents of this message represent the opinion only of the writer, and
may not be construed to indicate the endorsement of Knight-Ridder, Inc.;
Philadelphia Newspapers, Inc.; The Philadelphia Inquirer; or the
Philadelphia Daily News.
"Artificial intelligence is no match for natural stupidity."

DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

Archives Available at:
http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html

http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/

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SIGNOFF CTRL 

[CTRL] Government to Review Y2K-Fix Patent

[Tatman, Robert]

 -Caveat Lector-

http://my.cnn.com/jbcl/cnews/Go?template=tnmDethd=0sname=Top+News+from+CNN
art_id=5243168sbc_id=7uid=946414751200

Government to Review Y2K-Fix Patent

December 28, 1999
Web posted at: 11:21 a.m. EST (1621 GMT)
by Linda Rosencrance

(IDG) -- In a rare move, the U.S. Patent Office has decided to re-examine
the year 2000 date-correction patent for windowing that it issued to
software developer Bruce Dickens on Sept. 8, 1998.

But Dickens' attorney, Bill Cray of the Laguna Beach, Calif., law office of
Levin  Hawes, said, "Bruce welcomes the opportunity to have the patent
reviewed and anticipates that it will strengthen his patent when it gets
through the re-examination process."

The agency's decision comes after the inventor sent bills to Fortune 1,000
companies and software manufacturers asking each of them to pay him up to
$50,000 in licensing fees, as well as an additional $1,000-$2,000 per month,
according to the Arlington, Va.-based Information Technology Association of
America (ITAA). In addition, ITAA said Dickens was planning to increase the
fees substantially for companies which didn't pay him before the first of
the year.

While not taking a position on the patent office's decision, Marc Pearl,
ITAA's legal counsel, said the move will help companies stay focused on
fixing and testing systems in the final run up to the year 2000 date
rollover.

"We had never taken a position on this. And we had never told companies not
to pay the fees. What we did tell them was to check with legal counsel,"
Pearl said. "But we were concerned that [even though this was] something as
obvious as windowing, an individual had found a patent officer who said this
was 'non-obvious,' " Pearl said. "A number of IT companies were concerned
because they had been doing things like this before, even though not
directly related to the Y2K date change."

Pearl said he hoped the publicity surrounding the patent office's decision
would discourage companies from writing checks until they consulted an
attorney.

Dickens worked for McDonnell Douglas, which is now part of The Boeing Co.,
in Long Beach, Calif., when the firm applied for a windowing patent. When
the patent office granted the patent, the company assigned it to him.

Since that time Dickens started a company called Dickens2000 to solicit
licensees for the windowing technique, which he calls Dickens Y2K Solution.
Windowing is the technique used for accurately interpreting data entered in
the double-digit year fields. Rather than having to rewrite a program to
represent all dates with four digits -- 99 would be replaced by 1999 --
windowing allows a programmer to enable software to understand whether the
last two digits of a date should be preceded by a "19" or a "20."

This technique creates a "window" that would allow a computer to recognize,
for example, that years entered as 00-29 would represent 2000-2029 and years
entered as 30-99 would represent 1930-1999.

In a press release Q. Todd Dickinson, the commissioner of patents and
trademarks, said he decided to review the patent after the agency discovered
information that wasn't considered when the patent was originally examined
and granted.

In this case numerous companies contacted the patent office complaining --
as well as providing documentation -- that the method was already being used
by programmers before Dickens claimed he developed it, Pearl said.

In the release Dickinson noted that "commissioner-ordered re-examinations
were discretionary and rare." Patent office spokeswoman Ruth Nyblod said the
agency couldn't comment further on the matter because of legal issues.

Kazim Isfahani, an analyst at Giga Information Group Inc. in Cambridge,
Mass., said the patent commissioner's decision to re-examine the patent was
a "positive action."

"There has been an overwhelming amount of evidence that there was "prior
art" [evidence that the technique had been in use] before Dickens applied
for his patent," Isfahani said.

"The patent office never puts out a press release announcing that they are
going to re-examine a patent," Isfahani said. "But the patent office has
come under a lot of scrutiny recently for not being up on the times
technologically-speaking. This is a way to [refute that]."



===
Robert F. Tatman
Computer Help Desk
Desktop  LAN Services
Systems Department
Philadelphia Newspapers, Inc.
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
215.854.2729
215.854.2788
The contents of this message represent the opinion only of the writer, and
may not be construed to indicate the endorsement of Knight-Ridder, Inc.;
Philadelphia Newspapers, Inc.; The Philadelphia Inquirer; or the
Philadelphia Daily News.
"Artificial intelligence is no match for natural stupidity."

DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, 

Re: [CTRL] Let Them Eat Bush

[Tatman, Robert]

 -Caveat Lector-

Ah...you're a self-trained authority on...conjugation?

 -Original Message-
 From: Nurev Ind Research [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
 Sent: Tuesday, December 28, 1999 6:02 PM
 To:   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Subject:  Re: [CTRL] Let Them Eat Bush

snip
 PS: I consider myself a lay expert on this subject.



DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

Archives Available at:
http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html

http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/

To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email:
SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED]

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Om

Re: [CTRL] Fake Terrorism - The Road To Dictatorship

[Tatman, Robert]

 -Caveat Lector-

And the Mexican War was equally a manufactured war, created with the sole
objective of opening the way for U.S. annexation of a significant portion of
Mexican territory.

 -Original Message-
 From: nessie [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
 Sent: Friday, December 24, 1999 10:41 PM
 To:   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Subject:  Re: [CTRL] Fake Terrorism - The Road To Dictatorship

  -Caveat Lector-

 Under the slogan "Remember the Maine", Americans went to war with Spain,
 wresting from that nation ownership of what is now much of the American
 southwest.


 "Ownership of what is now much of the American southwest" was actually
 wrested from a different nation, Mexico, in a war with equally bogus
 beginnings, over half a century earlier.

 DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
 ==
 CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting
 propagandic
 screeds are not allowed. Substance-not soapboxing!  These are sordid
 matters
 and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and
 outright
 frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor
 effects
 spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
 gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to
 readers;
 be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
 nazi's need not apply.

 Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.
 
 Archives Available at:
 http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html

 http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/
 
 To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email:
 SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED]

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 SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED]

 Om

DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

Archives Available at:
http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html

http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/

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Om

Re: [CTRL] Bug at hotmail

[Tatman, Robert]

 -Caveat Lector-

Hotmail has been buggy since its creation (1996?). It's notorious for
crashing. All of the Web-based e-mail services have problems, but Hotmail's
historically been about the worst, perhaps because they've been around
longer and have more experience at screwing up. And I can't say that Hotmail
has improved noticeably since Microsquish took them over.

 -Original Message-
 From: Nicky Molloy [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
 Sent: Saturday, December 25, 1999 6:17 PM
 To:   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Subject:  [CTRL] Bug at hotmail

  -Caveat Lector-

 Hi all,

 Apparently Hotmail has a bug they are working on, according to them. Has
 Microsoft been got at I wonder? I will try to find out if that error
 message
 is a bug which disables sites.

 Nicky

 DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
 ==
 CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting
 propagandic
 screeds are not allowed. Substance-not soapboxing!  These are sordid
 matters
 and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and
 outright
 frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor
 effects
 spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
 gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to
 readers;
 be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
 nazi's need not apply.

 Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.
 
 Archives Available at:
 http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html

 http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/
 
 To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email:
 SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED]

 To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email:
 SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED]

 Om

DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

Archives Available at:
http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html

http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/

To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email:
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Om

Re: [CTRL] Question on the origin of AIDS

[Tatman, Robert]

 -Caveat Lector-

More likely that someone *ate* a monkey which was carrying the Green Monkey
Virus. Apparently the local equivalent of McDonald's in the Congo and Angola
bush country is to shoot and stew a monkey... Yummy!

 -Original Message-
 From: Tenorlove [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
 Sent: Sunday, December 26, 1999 8:08 AM
 To:   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Subject:  [CTRL] Question on the origin of AIDS

  -Caveat Lector-

 My hubby's pet theory is that AIDS came about because some guy had sex
 with a monkey. Is there any evidence that this could be the case?

 Tenorlove
 ducking cyber-tomatoes
 _
 Do You Yahoo!?
 Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

 DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
 ==
 CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting
 propagandic
 screeds are not allowed. Substance-not soapboxing!  These are sordid
 matters
 and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and
 outright
 frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor
 effects
 spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
 gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to
 readers;
 be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
 nazi's need not apply.

 Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.
 
 Archives Available at:
 http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html

 http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/
 
 To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email:
 SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED]

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 SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED]

 Om

DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

Archives Available at:
http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html

http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/

To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email:
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Om

Re: [CTRL] Homeopaths vs quackbusters, stage magicians, and fools ...

[Tatman, Robert]

 -Caveat Lector-

That's no science *that you will recognize.* Homeopathy has a 200-year
history of rigorous research and development. And from your tone, it's not
the supporters of homeopathy who are fighting a losing battle, clutching at
straws. *You* may feel comfortable with putting systemic poisons into your
body; I am not.
 -Original Message-
 From: William Shannon [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
 Sent: Sunday, December 26, 1999 10:49 AM
 To:   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Subject:  Re: [CTRL] Homeopaths vs quackbusters, stage magicians, and
 fools...

  -Caveat Lector-

 In a message dated 12/26/99 9:28:54 AM Central Standard Time,
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

  If one can stick to arguing the science, or lack thereof, 

 The problem here is that there IS no science to support the claims of
 homeopathy...NONE...the supporters of this fraud are fighting a losing
 battle
 and they know it...their desperation is clear,there merely clutching at
 straws.
 Bill.



DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

Archives Available at:
http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html

http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/

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SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED]

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SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Om

Re: [CTRL] Question on the origin of AIDS

[Tatman, Robert]

 -Caveat Lector-

Actually, this culinary custom has endangered quite a few species of
primates, including the bonobos. The chaos caused by the ongoing Central
African war (can't call it a civil war any longer) has only made matters
worse, with soldiers and everyone else foraging off the land.

 -Original Message-
 From: Gavin Phillips [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
 Sent: Monday, December 27, 1999 1:34 PM
 To:   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Subject:  Re: [CTRL] Question on the origin of AIDS

  -Caveat Lector-

 Sounds like a lot of monkey business to me! Gavin.


 In a message dated 12/27/99 11:43:33 AM Central Standard Time,
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

  More likely that someone *ate* a monkey which was carrying the Green
 Monkey
  Virus. Apparently the local equivalent of McDonald's in the Congo and
 Angola
  bush country is to shoot and stew a monkey... Yummy!

   -Original Message-
   From: Tenorlove [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
   Sent: Sunday, December 26, 1999 8:08 AM
   To:   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
   Subject:  [CTRL] Question on the origin of AIDS
  
-Caveat Lector-
  
   My hubby's pet theory is that AIDS came about because some guy had sex
   with a monkey. Is there any evidence that this could be the case?
  
   Tenorlove
   ducking cyber-tomatoes


DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

Archives Available at:
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Om

Re: [CTRL] Signoff CTRL

[Tatman, Robert]

 -Caveat Lector-

Well, I can understand why you're hanging up your horns...but the list sure
ain't the same without you. GOAT, you are a gentleman and a scholar, in the
best sense of those words, and I consider it both a privilege and a pleasure
to have been both your sparring partner and your accomplice in some of the
most intellectually challenging and satisfying discussions I have taken part
in online. And there is nothing more I can really say except to quote an old
post of yours: "In the words of Herman Trismagizmo, 'As above, so what?'"

Ave atque vale,
Bob

P.S.--Oh, and Merry Christmas and Happy Armageddon Day while I'm at it.

 -Original Message-
 From: Das GOAT [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
 Sent: Friday, December 24, 1999 8:37 AM
 To:   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Subject:  [CTRL] Signoff CTRL

  -Caveat Lector-

 Well, it's the holidays (Y2K is my birthday) and I'm busting my goat-butt
 at
 work with little time left over, and I seem to be plagued each day now
 with a
 barrage of e-mails from outraged proponents of crackpot "experts" like
 Sitchin, and now this "Acharya,"
 who's vowed to personally bombard me with her spurious arguments and
 quasi-facts until I "give in" or else give up -- which to her would mean
 I'd
 "given in" -- and I just don't have the time, energy, or inclination
 anymore
 to waste what little is left of my "life of the mind" in sparring matches
 with inmates of that "information-age" insane asylum called the Internet
 ...
 So, I think it's time to take another break and try again to "get a life,"
 if
 such a thing is even possible as we drag ourselves wearily from Y2K to
 5-5-2000 ...

 Das GOAT is retiring, hanging up his horns.  Friends on CTRL (you know who
 you are), stay in touch --I'll let you know my next, more "anonymous"
 screen-name and e-mail address-- and please forward me any posts of
 burning
 significance.  It's been fun --at times-- and CTRL is still a worthwhile
 forum for alternative information, can't knock it.

 Happy holidays to you --may "God bless us all, every one"-- and to all a
 good
 night ...


 ¦-- 8-

 DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
 ==
 CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting
 propagandic
 screeds are not allowed. Substance-not soapboxing!  These are sordid
 matters
 and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and
 outright
 frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor
 effects
 spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
 gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to
 readers;
 be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
 nazi's need not apply.

 Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.
 
 Archives Available at:
 http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html

 http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/
 
 To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email:
 SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED]

 To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email:
 SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED]

 Om

DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

Archives Available at:
http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html

http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/

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Om

Re: [CTRL] Homeopaths vs quackbusters, stage magicians, and fools ...

[Tatman, Robert]

 -Caveat Lector-

Just one question, Bill: have you yourself ever *tried* homeopathic
remedies?

 -Original Message-
 From: William Shannon [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
 Sent: Thursday, December 23, 1999 11:42 PM
 To:   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Subject:  Re: [CTRL] Homeopaths vs quackbusters, stage magicians, and
 fools...

  -Caveat Lector-

 In a message dated 12/23/99 9:53:49 PM Central Standard Time,
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

  During the cholera epidemics in Europe during the 1830's, homeopathic
  doctors had 80% of their patients recover, where allopathic doctors had
 only
  50% of their patients recover. 

 Gee, could that be due to the fact that "allopathic" medicine in the early
 19th century was utter horsecrap and that doing nothing (or taking
 homeopathic water, same thing)
 was less an affront to the body than bleedings and purgings?
 Bill.



DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

Archives Available at:
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Om

Re: [CTRL] Politically Correct Jesus

[Tatman, Robert]

 -Caveat Lector-

The human brain has receptors for an astounding number of substances and
phenomena, which science is just beginning to realize. There are receptors
for morphine, Prozac, nicotine, alcohol, for ecstasy, both physical and
aesthetic; there are receptors that are so multiply-redundant that the brain
looks like an engineer's kludge. The surprising thing is not that there is a
"God module" or "God receptor." It would be surprising if it were *not*
there and we were really only talking to the other side of our brains.
What's surprising is that it took so long for science to accept something
that the rest of humanity has known for thousands of years. This does not
"prove" the truth of Christianity, Judaism, Islam, Buddhism, S*ientology, or
the Church of the SubGenius. What it *does* demonstrate is that the human
race is hardwired to look beyond itself, beyond the reality of the normal
senses, for answers to its questions about the meaning of existence. It also
suggests a hard, physiological reason for the parallels in religious
experience between traditions radically different in belief and practice.

 -Original Message-
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
 Sent: Friday, December 24, 1999 3:12 AM
 To:   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Subject:  Re: [CTRL] Politically Correct Jesus

  -Caveat Lector-

 Kris Millegan wrote:
 
   Fairytales.
  Om
  k

Brain researchers find 'God module'
Los Angeles Times
[re-post]

 NEW ORLEANS -- No one knows why humanity felt its first religious
 stirrings, but researchers at University of California, San Diego,
 reported
 Tuesday that the human brain may be hard-wired to hear the voice of
 heaven.

snip

DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

Archives Available at:
http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html

http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/

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Om

Re: [CTRL] Status of the United States Navy

[Tatman, Robert]

 -Caveat Lector-

One does wonder why, if modern artillery, both land-based and naval, is so
highly computerized that what passes for "cannoneers" today might just as
well be sitting in a video parlor in a mall in Dubuque, Iowa, as on a
destroyer escort in the North Sea, why the hell do they need live-fire
exercises at all? They've got simulators that do a better job of training
service personnel without the expense of fighting a fake war. I suggest that
the real reason for the Navy's indignation at the popular opposition to
continued use of Vieques as a target range is simply that live-fire
exercises make much better news bites, and they impress junketing
Congresspeople...

 -Original Message-
 From: Andrew Hennessey [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
 Sent: Friday, December 24, 1999 1:22 PM
 To:   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Subject:  Re: [CTRL] Status of the United States Navy

  -Caveat Lector-

 hi,

  sorry to interrupt your enjoyment of raw phallic power here  but
 ...

 your wonderful navy  having been unable to use firing ranges within
 simple guidelines at puerto rico and having been responsible for several
 deaths during practise .
 have now brought their shit to cape wrath in northern scotland ...
 where they are currently shelling bemused seagulls with depleted uranium
 shells.

 can someone not tell these assholes to mess up their own countryside ???

 Andrew Hennessey



DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

Archives Available at:
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Om

Re: [CTRL] Fwd: Re: Christ Killer

[Tatman, Robert]

 -Caveat Lector-

Definitely! Some of Acharya's points are interesting, such as the assorted
attributes of Osiris...but on the whole I'd be more inclined to trust Das
GOAT's scholarship than hers.

reaches into backpack and pulls out hoagies and steak sandwiches for
all...

 -Original Message-
 From: Tenorlove [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
 Sent: Friday, December 24, 1999 7:18 AM
 To:   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Subject:  Re: [CTRL] Fwd: Re: Christ Killer

  -Caveat Lector-

 --- Das GOAT [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  In a message dated 12/23/1999 02:10:31 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 writes:
 This guy Das is really OUT TO LUNCH.

 If that's the case, I'm dining at Das' table!

 passes Italian subs  beer through screen to fellow diners

 Tenorlove
 _
 Do You Yahoo!?
 Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

 DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
 ==
 CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting
 propagandic
 screeds are not allowed. Substance-not soapboxing!  These are sordid
 matters
 and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and
 outright
 frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor
 effects
 spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
 gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to
 readers;
 be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
 nazi's need not apply.

 Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.
 
 Archives Available at:
 http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html

 http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/
 
 To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email:
 SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED]

 To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email:
 SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED]

 Om

DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

Archives Available at:
http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html

http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/

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Om

Re: [CTRL] Fwd: Christ Killer

[Tatman, Robert]

 -Caveat Lector-

There are at least two genuine churches of Elvis, the First Presleyterian
Church and I forget the second one. It seriously wouldn't surprise me to
see Elvis resurrected with Diana in the coming NWO New Age religious
thingy... "There is no Goddess but Diana, and Elvis is Her prophet"???

 -Original Message-
 From: Tenorlove [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
 Sent: Friday, December 24, 1999 7:57 AM
 To:   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Subject:  Re: [CTRL] Fwd: Christ Killer

  -Caveat Lector-

 Speaking of Elvis, on the Priory-of-Sion list there's been a
 discussion; an ITV poll showed that its viewers consider Elvis Presley
 the most influential person of the century. Hee hee hee.. shows
 what TV does to the brain...

 Tenorlove
 who says "Who needs TV when you have the Internet?" snort


DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

Archives Available at:
http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html

http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/

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Om

Re: [CTRL] Let Them Eat Bush

[Tatman, Robert]

 -Caveat Lector-

Careful, Joshua...there might be children watching... wink

 -Original Message-
 From: Nurev Ind Research [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
 Sent: Friday, December 24, 1999 12:27 PM
 To:   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Subject:  Re: [CTRL] Let Them Eat Bush

  -Caveat Lector-

 Is that the same as " carpet munching, and muff diving?"

 Joshua2



DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

Archives Available at:
http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html

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Om

Re: [CTRL] [EWAR] New Worm virus - from CTRL List

[Tatman, Robert]

 -Caveat Lector-

Fortunately this worm, W32.NewApt.Worm, (which is NOT a virus) is "only"
annoying. The answer to all virus issues is ALWAYS: KEEP YOUR ANTI-VIRUS
DEFINITIONS UP TO DATE. If your AV program allows you to opt for automatic
updating, select that. If you have to update manually, make an appointment
to do it at the same time each week. There are a godawful lot of viruses,
worms, "joke" programs, and other stuff going around right now, and it's up
to individual users to defend themselves.

 -Original Message-
 From: Kris Millegan [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
 Sent: Tuesday, December 21, 1999 7:23 PM
 To:   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Subject:  Re: [CTRL] [EWAR] New Worm virus - from "CTRL List"

  -Caveat Lector-

 In a message dated 12/21/99 3:54:03 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

  Watch your Off-List e-mail messages for the following .EXE
 
  attachments, comprising the "W32.NewApt.Worm" worm virus.
 
  I received two of them recently, from the same virus brain:

  Bill, I am confused, I do not see the attachment in the CTRL archives and
 you yourself sent the email on the topic from Orbit.

 Did someone send you something in response, personally?

 Om
 k



DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

Archives Available at:
http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html

http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/

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Om

Re: [CTRL] Zipped File-Report To Pres. And Congress Re:Terrorism and ...

[Tatman, Robert]

 -Caveat Lector-

Bill, if you have a very large item to send to the list, save it as a text
file and then split it into two or three separate messages. Sending stuff
from AOL is a problem anyway; when I am using MS Outlook Web Access to read
mail from my company's e-mail server over the Web, I can't open AOL
attachments...and AOL treats any forwarded message as an attachment, which
is a royal, ah, bain in the putt.

 -Original Message-
 From: William Shannon [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
 Sent: Tuesday, December 21, 1999 7:31 PM
 To:   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Subject:  Re: [CTRL] Zipped File-Report To Pres. And Congress
 Re:Terrorism and ...

  -Caveat Lector-

 In a message dated 12/20/99 9:47:11 PM Central Standard Time,
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

  better send
  it as text or you may be making a wasted effort.  Also, please refrain
 from
  using cute background colors and patterns as this makes reading difficult
 and
  I usually dump them, without reading. 

 Uh, yeah well this "text" would exceed the lomits imposed on me by my
 e-mail
 server, it's a huge file...and I certainly didn't use any "cute" colours
 or
 patterns...
 Otherwise, thanks a ton for your advice...
 Bill



DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

Archives Available at:
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Om

[CTRL] The New World Disorder

[Tatman, Robert]

 -Caveat Lector-

http://www.marxist.com/Theory/worldrelations.html
The New World Disorder
World Relations at the dawn of the 21st Century
"Just as the 19th century came to a close with the outbreak of the first
world war in 1914, the war that has started in Kosovo, Europe's first since
1945, marks our true entrance into the 21st century. That we should be
entering a new era in the same tragic way we did the previous one, and more
or less in the same place, is highly symbolic... The events taking place
there reflect the changing clout of the various international actors..."

"The United States is clearly the sole 'hyper power', an imbalance that
could prove damaging."

Dominique Moisi, deputy director of the Paris-based Institut Francais des
Relations Internationales writing in the Financial Times (29/3/99)

Exactly one hundred years ago Kropotkin wrote that war is the normal
condition of Europe. Yet for a long period--half a century--this dismal
prediction appeared to be contradicted by reality. In the period after the
Second World War, world capitalism experienced a strong period of growth.
This was the objective basis for the relative stability of relations between
the classes, and also between the national states in the post-war period. It
was this long period of economic upswing--together with the division of the
world between US imperialism and the USSR--which gave rise to this relative
stability in world relations. But now everything has changed.

The reason why they could get this so-called peace was because of the
balance of terror between mighty Stalinist Russia on the one hand and mighty
American imperialism on the other. The struggle between two mutually
contradictory social systems with the so-called 'cold war'.

The changing face of war

For a period of 50 years after the Second World War, there was relative
stability in world relations, based on the balance of terror between
Stalinist Russia on the one hand and American Imperialism on the other. They
divided the whole world up into what seemed to be immutable blocs and
spheres of influence. At that time there would have been no question
whatever of the Americans attacking Yugoslavia or bombing Iraq. It would
have led to war between the USA and the Soviet Union, and such a war was
ruled out for 50 years. It was impossible for the reasons that Engels
anticipated over a hundred years ago. At that time it was wrong--as the
great slaughter of 1914-18 subsequently showed. But it was right for the
last 50 years. The Cold War was the manifestation of a struggle between two
mutually contradictory social systems on a world scale. In this so-called
period of peace, the fundamental contradictions were not removed. On the
contrary. Tremendous contradictions were building up. This was revealed by
the monstrous arms race, which devoured a large part of the wealth of
society. The question is: why these contradictions did not lead to war
between America and Russia at that time?

Towards the end of his life, old Engels wrote of the development of
imperialism and militarism, which were then new phenomena. Up until the
French revolution there were never standing armies. The monarchical states
of the 18th century maintained small professional armies. The French
Revolution changed all that. Before the French Revolution, it was fairly
common for the generals of two contending armies to arrive at a gentleman's
agreement to avoid a costly battle by deciding which side had "won". War was
an expensive business! This kind of warfare was undermined, first by the
American revolutionary War of Independence, when the colonial irregulars, in
Engels' words, refused to dance the military minuet with the forces of the
English crown. But it was completely destroyed by the French revolution
which, for the first time, confronted reactionary-feudal Europe with the
spectacle of an armed revolutionary people.

Brilliant revolutionary generals like Lazare Carnot evolved entirely new
military tactics and methods, especially the leveé en masse, in effect a
mobilisation of the whole people, which carried all before it. Bismarck
learnt that from the French Revolution. As early as 1807 Hardenberg wrote to
the king of Prussia: "We must do from above what the French have done from
below." The Prussians based themselves on Carnot's idea of an armed people,
but did so in the reactionary spirit of militarism. Nevertheless, the
Prussian military machine was perfected and won a series of spectacular
victories. This enabled the conservative Junker Bismarck to carry out the
historically progressive task of German unification, but in a reactionary
way--under the domination of feudal-bureaucratic Prussia.

By the 1890s the Prussian state, always bureaucratic and militaristic in
spirit, had evolved into a vast monster, spending unprecedented sums on
armaments. The French and others naturally followed the trend. The whole of
Europe was becoming transformed into a huge armed camp. When Engels saw the

Re: [CTRL] Anarchism: Two Kinds / Wendy McElroy

[Tatman, Robert]

 -Caveat Lector-

Thanks, Nessie! A very cogent explanation. Of course, where the worshippers
of the marketplace go wrong is that they define "property" in terms of
*private* property and extend the statement that "property is liberty" to
include General Motors, Bertelsmann, and Mitsubishi...which is a logical
absurdity.

 -Original Message-
 From: nessie [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
 Sent: Wednesday, December 22, 1999 11:47 AM
 To:   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Subject:  Re: [CTRL] Anarchism: Two Kinds / Wendy McElroy

  -Caveat Lector-

  Property is theft.
   Property is liberty.
   Property is impossible.



 Proudhon is obviously talking about three different things. The word
 "property" is like the word "love." It has more than one meaning. You
 "love" your girlfriend. You "love" your mother. You "love" pizza. These
 are obviously different things. So too are the three different kinds of
 property.

 "Property is theft" refers to private property, i.e., a factory where
 workers toil to produce goods the owner sells back to us. We built those
 factories. They rightfully belong to us. We were robbed.

 "Property is liberty" refers to personal property. If the things you
 actually use, your home, your car, your tools, your toys, etc. are not
 entirely immune to confiscation and forfieture, your "liberty" is an cruel
 illusion.

 "Property is impossible" refers to public property. A long as the things
 we all use, the roads, the schools, the airwaves, etc. are under control
 of the state and of private capital and not of the public, public property
 is impossible.

 DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
 ==
 CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting
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 screeds are not allowed. Substance-not soapboxing!  These are sordid
 matters
 and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and
 outright
 frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor
 effects
 spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
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DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

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[CTRL] FW: Araucanos are descedants of ancient Greeks

[Tatman, Robert]

 -Caveat Lector-

In light of the current threads on prehistoric migration and exploration and
their implications for history, here's a piece arguing that the Araucanas of
Chile are of Greek origin.

 -Original Message-
 From: m [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
 Sent: Monday, December 20, 1999 4:13 PM
 To:   Eternera
 Subject:  Araucanos are descedants of ancient Greeks

 Eternera Mailing List - http://get.to/eternera Excuse me, list owner, this
 has nothing to do with NWO but it is interesting.
 The book "The Greek origin of Araucanos (or Araukanos?) of Chile" made its
 second Greek edition.
 The book is written  by  Lonko Kilapan, chief of  the Araukanos tribe that
 lives in Chile. He claims - and proves,  as I've been told, because I
 haven't read  it yet - that Araukanos are offspring of ancient Greeks,
 namely Spartans, who went to Chile about 600 a.D. and founded a colony.
 Araukanos still follow the ancient Spartan laws of Lycourgos.
 It is a fact that there is a sympathy between the people of  Greece and
 Chile, a sympathy that seems to have no specific reason. Pablo Neruda, a
 Nobel-prized poet from Chile, used to lay  emphasis on his Araukanos
 origin, associating this origin with the tribal tradition that Araukanos
 are descedants of Greeks. In his poem "Canto Jeneral" he speaks
 specifically of "Greek blood", that "goes down from the mountains to the
 sea".
 As far as I know, Greeks have discovered America in ancient times, before
 Colombus of course. This epirus is mentioned in ancient Greek writings
 with the name "Hesperia", that is to  say Western land. Greek arms have
 been discovered in tombs in America, but I don't remember where.
 Fortunately enough,  Greeks were not of genocidal mentality, so their
 discovery had no deplorable incidents.
 I am not among the nuts who believe that all earth inhabitants are
 descedants of Greeks. Moreover, there is no need to have blood
 relationship with  peoples in order to like them. This is racism.
 But, despite of what some nuts are saying, many people allover the earth
 are of Greek origin or of mixing of Greeks with local inhabitants- i.g.
 Italians, particularly Sicelians, and Spaniards.
 There is a similarity among  some tribal systems of American Indians and
 the ancient Greek communal  system, that still exists in the form of
 Christian parishes in small communities. Of course this may be a
 coincidense. The best thing for the nowadays people is to know one
 another, and to love one another, despite of blood relationships.
 M.
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==
CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

Archives Available at:
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Re: [CTRL] Politically Correct Jesus

[Tatman, Robert]

 -Caveat Lector-

Plus which, the entire marriage was a metaphor, symbolizing God's continuing
convenant with Israel despite the people's habit of whoring after false
gods. Hosea was typical of the Yahwist prophets in seeking to focus worship
solely on one supreme deity. While Eagle1's point is technically correct
(okay, it should have been fornication rather than adultery, but who's
counting?), Hosea presented himself as a type of Israel, so that when asked
"Why did you marry a whore?" he could say, "Because the people of Israel
have done exactly this by lusting after Asherah in her high places."

 -Original Message-
 From: YnrChyldzWyld [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
 Sent: Saturday, December 18, 1999 8:49 AM
 To:   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Subject:  Re: [CTRL] Politically Correct Jesus

  -Caveat Lector-

 On Fri, 17 Dec 1999, Eagle 1 wrote:
 There is a difference between "sin" and "disobedience".
 The two are not equal; nor do they have the same connotations.
 Example: God ordered Hosea to marry a whore - Hosea 1:2.  He "obeyed" ...
 but technically, he "sinned", because he became party to a "sin" of the
 flesh,  which was 'adultry'.

 Wrong.  Adultery (try learning how to spell it correctly) according to
 the Bible, is sexual relations between a man and a woman who are both
 married to someone else.  If only one partner is married, only that
 person is committing adultery.  An unmarried person cannot commit
 adultery, neither is sexual intercourse between a man and a woman who are
 legally married to each other adultery.

 Hosea was legally married to the whore, therefore he could not be
 committing adultery when he had sexual relations with her.  Neither was
 she an adulteress when having sexual relations with Hosea.  And the fact
 that she was able to legally marry Hosea suggests that she was not
 married to another man, therefore even when she made a living as a whore,
 SHE did not commit adultery, even tho a client may have been married.  It
 would have been her married clients who were adulterers...


 June ;-)

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 artist -SheDragon (Laura) (ldb)

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 DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
 ==
 CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting
 propagandic
 screeds are not allowed. Substance-not soapboxing!  These are sordid
 matters
 and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and
 outright
 frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor
 effects
 spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
 gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to
 readers;
 be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
 nazi's need not apply.

 Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.
 
 Archives Available at:
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 Om

DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is 

Re: [CTRL] Phoenicians in ancient New Zealand ? (fwd)

[Tatman, Robert]

 -Caveat Lector-

You're assuming that both "Israel" and "Phoenicia" were nations as we know
that concept today. They weren't. They were a collection of cities (i.e.
trading stations) loosely held together by cultural ties and fealty to a
"high king." As we've discussed in other threads, there is considerable
evidence of close cultural contact between Syria-Canaan-Israel and Mycenaean
Greeks, both in Greece and in Anatolia. The "Philistines" (who gave their
name, via a convoluted route, to "Filistina" [Palestine]) seem to have been
a particularly heterogeneous group, some of whom were usually fighting with
various Israelites at any given time...while at the same time other
Philistines were *allied* with various Israelites. The same was true of
Phoenicia, as well as Ammon, Midian, and the other "nations" of the Fertile
Crescent. It wasn't the non-existent "king of Phoenicia" who was allied with
Solomon of Israel, for example, but rather Hiram of Tyre...and it is not at
all beyond the realm of possibility that there were Israelites on ships
sailing out of Tyre and other Phoenician cities.

 -Original Message-
 From: YnrChyldzWyld [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
 Sent: Sunday, December 19, 1999 8:25 AM
 To:   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Subject:  Re: [CTRL] Phoenicians in ancient New Zealand ?  (fwd)

  -Caveat Lector-

 On Sat, 18 Dec 1999, Nurev Ind Research wrote:
 
snip
 cities on the Eastern Mediterranean evolved into Philistia. The
 Philistines
 were the enemies of the Jews then and down to this day. Both tribes were
 warring over the same territory. Down to this very day.

 Not according to the archeological evidence presented in the article --
 before they became Philistines, apparantly Israel and Phoenicia were
 quite cordial with each other...Phoenicia in the beginning apparantly
 acted as an outpost of its neighbor to the south...



 June ;-)



DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

Archives Available at:
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Om

Re: [CTRL] Did humans lose a sixth sense?

[Tatman, Robert]

 -Caveat Lector-

On a different tack, but generally agreeing, I used to have a supervisor who
was a quintessential jock--a triathlete, for God's sake! When he had an
all-male meeting in his office, the place smelled like a locker room after
they finished. You could almost *see* the testosterone in the air.

 -Original Message-
 From: Hilary A. Thomas [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
 Sent: Sunday, December 19, 1999 12:02 PM
 To:   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Subject:  Re: [CTRL] Did humans lose a sixth sense?

  snip

 Research has shown that the one constant in partners staying together is
 liking each other's personal aroma.  Conversely, couples tend to split if
 they don't like how their partner smells.

 Hilary



DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

Archives Available at:
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Om

Re: [CTRL] Politically Correct Jesus

[Tatman, Robert]

 -Caveat Lector-

"Religious science fiction," bordering on heresy if it wasn't in the
Bible... ISTM that there are an awful lot of supposed "Christians" who spend
more time contemplating the Devil or angels or saints or anything other than
Jesus Christ.

 -Original Message-
 From: Kris Millegan [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
 Sent: Sunday, December 19, 1999 1:07 PM
 To:   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Subject:  Re: [CTRL] Politically Correct Jesus

  -Caveat Lector-

 In a message dated 12/19/99 9:15:28 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

 (Still LOL about satan under the little tiles...  that's funny!)
 If it matters,  Satan is alive and well and being held in heaven until
 Michael releases him for a very special purpose... which you can read
 about
 by going to your Bible,  2 Thessalonians 2:1-12). (And contrary to
 popular
 belief,  satan has never seen the sights of any place called 'hell', as
 of
 yet.  He has a more special place for his demise).
 

  Fairytales.
 Om
 k



DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

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Om

Re: [CTRL] Anarchism: Two Kinds / Wendy McElroy

[Tatman, Robert]

 -Caveat Lector-

Nessie, you and I may disagree about nonviolence (and BTW, I'm going to pick
up that thread again soon), but here we agree completely. There is no such
thing as "Russian" anarchism (usually described as nihilism), "American"
anarchism, "German" anarchism, etc. That would be as impossible as electing
the president of  the International Anarchist Central Committee. I suspect
that a lot of the "explanations" of anarchism going around right now are
desinformatsiya, aimed at discrediting a movement which has the potential to
pose a serious threat to the Oligarchy, and also at encouraging anarchists
who speak particular languages to identify themselves as "Russian,"
"American," "German," "Catalan," and thus put artificial boundaries between
people and disrupt the movement's unity.

 -Original Message-
 From: nessie [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
 Sent: Sunday, December 19, 1999 8:29 PM
 To:   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Subject:  Re: [CTRL] Anarchism: Two Kinds / Wendy McElroy

  -Caveat Lector-

 An excellent article that explains this tricky subject really well!

 This article is bunk. It is absurd to talk about "American" anarchism and
 "Russian" anarchism. Anarchism, by definition,  recognizes no borders. If
 you're one of us, you're one of us, period. We don't care where you're
 from. It is particularly absurd to atribute the differences between
 individualist anarchism and collectivist anarchism to national origin.
 Both tendencies exist everywhere anarchists exist, which is most places on
 earth.  Both are present in virtually every anarchist individual. We
 believe that self reliance and mutual aid are of equal importance.

 If you want to know about anarchism, don't listen to non-anarchists. Never
 believe anything anybody says about their enemies. Listen to what we say
 about ourselves and our beliefs. We knowus  better  than anybody does.

snip

DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

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Re: [CTRL] Anarchism: Two Kinds / Wendy McElroy

[Tatman, Robert]

 -Caveat Lector-

Hell, even the distinction between collectivist and individualist is
baloney. The anarchists you name here leaped right out of the political
spectrum and became non-Euclideans. Consider Proudhon:

  Property is theft.
  Property is liberty.
  Property is impossible.

Whenever I try to seriously understand Proudhon, I am reminded of the *Last
Whole Earth Catalog*'s comment on the *Tao Te Ching*: "Just when you think
you understand it, it giggles and rains on you."

;^)


 -Original Message-
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
 Sent: Monday, December 20, 1999 2:53 AM
 To:   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Subject:  Re: [CTRL] Anarchism: Two Kinds / Wendy McElroy

 nessie wrote:
 
   -Caveat Lector-
 
  An excellent article that explains this tricky subject really well!
 
  This article is bunk. It is absurd to talk about "American" anarchism
 and
  "Russian" anarchism. Anarchism, by definition,  recognizes no borders.
 If
  you're one of us, you're one of us, period. We don't care where you're
  from. It is particularly absurd to atribute the differences between
  individualist anarchism and collectivist anarchism to national origin.

 True, it is particularly absurd to attribute the differences between
 individualist anarchism and collectivist anarchism to national origin, but
 you must admit there are major philosophical differences between great
 European Anarchist thinkers like Mikhail Bakunin, Peter Kropotkin,
 Pierre-Joseph Proudhon, et al. (collectivist), and great America's
 Anarchist thinkers like Benjamin Tucker, Lysander Spooner, etc.
 (individualist). Their national origin is irrelevant and at most a
 coincidence, although their differences in beliefs are not (collectivist
 v.
 individualist, anarcho-syndicalist v. anarcho-capitalist, anarcho-left v.
 anarcho-right, etc.). And although all the beliefs of these great thinkers
 would not fit neatly into a single 'faction', many of them do, and they
 serve to give a rough idea of where they each stand, what type of anarcho
 society they advocate, and how to get there. So while the 'national
 origin'
 fallacy is generally bunk, it does not necessarily make the entire article
 bunk.

snip

DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
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Re: [CTRL] Politically Correct Jesus

[Tatman, Robert]

 -Caveat Lector-

Well, Tenebrous, aside from it being his brother's *widow*, your remarks are
right in line with standard mainstream theological thinking today. You're
quite correct that there aren't any other references to anything that could
be construed as masturbation, in either the Old Testament or the New
Testament. Virtually all of the O.T. references to prohibited sex acts occur
in tandem with prohibited *religious* practices, which leads to the logical
conclusion that the sex acts in question actually formed part of the
prohibited "pagan" (i.e., non-Yahwist) practices. Now, lest someone charge
me with being too far off-list, I hasten to submit that this is a perfect
example of editorial censorship in the compilation of the Bible over the
centuries. *All* of the confusion stems from the deletion of explicit
references to the deity or deities whose cult was prohibited. There is some
(admittedly controversial) evidence, which we have discussed before on the
list, that prior to the Exile, the Hebrews were, at least part of the time,
*henotheistic*--that is, they worshipped *several* gods, of whom Yahweh
Sabaoth, "the Lord of Hosts" (i.e., the Generalissimo of Heaven), was primus
inter pares, much like Zeus among the Olympians. (x-ref the thread DasGOAT
and I got going a while back which included the considerable evidence for
cultural and religious interaction between Greece and Palestine-Syria.)
Apparently Yahweh had at least one consort, Asherah, plus possibly Tanit of
the Phoenicians. The Deuteronomic reforms under "Good King Josiah," as
Robert Graves calls him, stripped off the consorts and other "impure"
accretions, then recast the Law of Moses in the scroll that was "found" in
the Temple and brought to Josiah, which became what we know today as
Deuteronomy (that is, "the second law"). It is this new legal recension that
forms the basis of the subsequent social code that lies behind much of our
modern social customs, or rather the "officially-sanctioned" version of
those customs.

 -Original Message-
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
 Sent: Thursday, December 16, 1999 7:21 PM
 To:   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Subject:  Re: [CTRL] Politically Correct Jesus

  -Caveat Lector-

 In a message dated 12/16/99 3:38:06 PM Eastern Standard Time,
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

 
his tremor
caused him to masturbate, which is a sin. 
 
   I've heard a lot of strange things from Christian beliefs, but this is
 the
   first I've heard of this.  God denies ugly Christians this only form of
   relief?  I don't recall seeing this in the ten commandments.
 
   Regards,
   Bob Stokes

 It is a hotly debated topic.  Most of the people who say that masturbation
 is
 a sin point out one particular passage of scripture to support the view.
 It's in the OT somewhere, where God commands a man named Onan to go into
 his
 brothers wife (or some such) and have sex with her in order to produce an
 heir (at least this is how I remember the story).  Onan fails to do so,
 and
 is said to have "spilled his seed on the ground".  God then kills Onan.
 Personally I think Onan was killed for disobeying God and not for the
 masturbation, or the spilling of the seed.  That is of course predicated
 on
 the notion that any of that stuff has any basis in fact, or that it is a
 canon you hold to.  I am not aware of any other passages of the Bible
 which
 prohibit the activity, though I am quite certain the Roman Church has it
 listed as a sin.



DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

Archives Available at:
http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html

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Om

Re: [CTRL] Fw: CONSUMER WARNING/PHONING - ACTION ALERT - - PLEASE POST!

[Tatman, Robert]

 -Caveat Lector-

Of course! Remember, this was the era when Bufferin ads showed those little
A's and B's racing through the sanitized guts of a neuter mannikin, and also
when Disney and the AEC collaborated on *Our Friend, the Atom*--one of the
most effective domestic propaganda pieces since Leni Riefenstahl's *Sieg des
Willens*. Radiation was *good* for you! Why, it would even cure *acne*!
snort

 -Original Message-
 From: piper [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
 Sent: Friday, December 17, 1999 12:02 AM
 To:   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Subject:  Re: [CTRL] Fw: CONSUMER WARNING/PHONING - ACTION ALERT - -
 PLEASE POST!

  -Caveat Lector-

 this gives some information on Qua'c'ker Oats
 Subject:   [CTRL] Fwd: "experiments" on civilians
  Date:  Mon, 22 Nov 1999 15:02:14 EST
  From:  Kris Millegan [EMAIL PROTECTED]

  Subject:"experiments" on civilians
Date: Mon, 22 Nov 1999 13:21:27 -0400
From:Dana Beal [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Source: New Scientist (UK)
Copyright: New Scientist, RBI Limited 1999
Contact: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Website: http://www.newscientist.com/
Page: 49-51
Author: Charles Seife

WITHOUT CONSENT

 A review of: Undue Risk:
 Secret State Experiments on Humans, by
 Jonathan Moreno, WH Freeman,
 UKP15, ISBN 0716731428

 a quote from the post
 " Few more so than the so-called "science club"
 studies of the 1940s and 1950s, in which scientists
 fed radioactive cereal to unsuspecting youngsters
 at institutions for troubled adolescents.  The
 experiments were co-sponsored by the US
 government's Atomic Energy Commission
 and the Quaker Oats company in the US, and
 carried out by scientists from the prestigious
 Massachusetts Institute of Technology.
 According to Moreno, Quaker Oats
 wanted to trace where the iron and other
 nutrients in their cereals travelled
 to in the body, while the AEC wanted to
 learn more about how radiation was deposited.

In 1997, Quaker Oats and MIT agreed to
 pay $1.85 million in compensation without
 admitting guilt.  Moreno acknowledges that the
 radiation levels were too low to do any harm.
 But that's not the point, he says. The parents
 weren't told radiation was involved, or that the
 research offered no medical benefits.  All  they
 knew was their kids were joining a special club
 which would involve outings to watch baseballand
 a special cereal diet."

 end of quote


DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

Archives Available at:
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Om

Re: [CTRL] Phoenicians in ancient New Zealand ? (fwd)

[Tatman, Robert]

 -Caveat Lector-

ISTR that the primary evidence for Phoenician or Carthaginian landings in
the Americas is a heavily-eroded monument found in Brazil (sorry, can't
remember when or exactly where). IIRC, near the end of his life, the great
Semitic-language scholar and archaeologist Cyrus Gordon did a rough
translation of this stone; he believed it to be Phoenician, and said that it
recorded a trading expedition down the coast of West Africa that got blown
badly off course and crashed on the Brazilian coast (near Bahia?). They
worked their way inland and finally wound up totally stranded in the Matto
Grosso.

There are some much more iffy "inscriptions" found in Oklahoma, which could
either be West Semitic script or grooves cut by years of plowing.

Of all the pre-Columbian traders, the Phoenicians were certainly the finest
seafarers. I am not familiar with the New Zealand evidence, and will watch
with interest to see whether some of our Kiwi sistern and brethren can
contribute more detailed information on these sites. I *have* seen some of
the work of the "radical diffusionist" Heine-Gelderen, who believed that
ancient stoneworks in New Zealand were actually Egyptian in origin.
Heine-Gelderen is often derided as a crackpot, but recent anthropological
discoveries, such as the DNA/virus link between aboriginal populations in
Japan and Peru, suggest that we have just barely begun to document the
wanderings of our human ancestors...in short, you really *can't* rule out
the possibility of Phoenicians or Egyptians (or Egyptians with a Phoenician
crew?) reaching New Zealand. I'm not prepared to believe it outright, but
neither am I prepared to *dis*believe it.

 -Original Message-
 From: Bill Kingsbury [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
 Sent: Thursday, December 16, 1999 9:40 PM
 To:   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Subject:  [CTRL] Phoenicians in ancient New Zealand ?  (fwd)

  -Caveat Lector-

  snip

  If anyone has any information about ancient Phoenician landings in
  America, I would be pleased to hear them. One message had mention
  of proof that this was so, but did not say what he evidence was.

  snip

DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

Archives Available at:
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Om

Re: [CTRL] Skeptic News - Tue.1 - y2k minus 18

[Tatman, Robert]

 -Caveat Lector-

*No armadillos* were squashed?? But...what will you *eat*??

 -Original Message-
 From: Ric Carter [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
 Sent: Friday, December 17, 1999 7:01 AM
 To:   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Subject:  [CTRL] Skeptic News - Tue.1 - y2k minus 18

* No armadillos were squashed during the non-production of this
bulletin.

DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

Archives Available at:
http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html

http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/

To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email:
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Om

Re: [CTRL] WHO'S IN JAIL? High court rules states can keep it a s ecret

[Tatman, Robert]

 -Caveat Lector-

Scalia is even worse.

 -Original Message-
 From: Prudence L. Kuhn [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
 Sent: Friday, December 17, 1999 11:12 AM
 To:   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Subject:  Re: [CTRL] WHO'S IN JAIL? High court rules states can keep
 it a secret

  -Caveat Lector-

 In a message dated 12/16/1999 11:01:00 PM Eastern Standard Time,
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

  law, which the court upheld, is too restrictive of public information,
 but
  Chief Justice William Rehnquist's opinion says states may deny access to
 any
  information in their possession and, furthermore, may keep all
 information
  about arrests secret from everyone. 

 Who was it out there who was worried about Clinton's dictatorial ideas.
 Looks like he's a piker compared to our Chief Justice.  William Rehnquist
 is
 paving the way for the return of Feudalism.  Maybe that's better than
 fascism, but I wouldn't bet on it.  And don't forget the Rehnquist
 decision
 that innocence is no bar to carrying out a conviction.  That's our Supreme
 Court protecting your freedom.  Prudy



DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

Archives Available at:
http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html

http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/

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Om

[CTRL] Did humans lose a sixth sense?

[Tatman, Robert]

 -Caveat Lector-

I am reminded of a story published in *Astounding SF* (precursor of
*Analog*) in the late 1950's which theorized that the defining factor in the
explosive climb of Homo sapiens toward civilization could be attributed to a
cold virus which became symbiotic with humans, living in our nasal tract and
drastically reducing our sense of smell...and incidentally making it
possible for large numbers of humans to live and work together. I have also
seen speculation that circumcision has the effect of reducing male secretion
of pheromones which would otherwise produce instinctive hostility from other
males and instinctive receptivity from females; this reduced-pheromone
effect apparently allows the creation of stable societies in very confined
environments such as bedouin tent communities. Not that I necessarily accept
either hypothesis, but both of them dovetail rather neatly with this BBC
report.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/low/english/sci/tech/newsid_566000/566368.stm

Wednesday, 15 December, 1999, 15:23 GMT

Did humans lose a sixth sense?

By BBC News Online Science Editor Dr David Whitehouse

Our distant ancestors may have had a sixth sense that modern humans have
lost because of a genetic mutation.

Some researchers believe that the vestige of an organ that we all have in
our noses was once responsible for detecting chemical signals given off by
other humans. Some even think that it still influences our behaviour.

Located just behind our nostrils are two tiny pits called the vomeronasal
organ (VNO). The organ contains nerves that respond to chemicals called
pheromones that are secreted by many animals. Whether humans do so as well
is a matter of conjecture.

In many creatures, pheromones trigger a variety of instinctive behaviours
such as aggression and mating.

Mouse gene

Professor Catherine Dulac of the Harvard Medical School and researchers have
isolated in mice a gene that she believes plays a major role in the
detection of pheromones.

 ...
Humans have the gene as well but in a mutated form that may make it useless
for detecting pheromones. This suggests we may once have had the ability to
pick up the delicate chemical language of pheromones but have now lost it
because the VNO cannot develop and function properly.

The researchers are currently making a careful search for other human genes
that we may use to detect pheromones other than the one we share with mice.
Rats and mice have well-developed VNO's containing millions of nerve cells.
The human VNO is different - it may work in the same way or it may not.

Pheromones from insects and rodents are known but so far nobody has been
able to find one from humans, despite the scent products that can be bought
with names like Desire.

Menstrual cycles

There is some evidence that pheromones are at work in humans. Some research
suggests that the female menstrual cycle can be advanced or retarded by
sniffing the scent from other females captured via underarm pads. However,
some scientists believe that the VNO is not responsible for detecting these
scents. Instead, they are picked up by the so-called main olfactory system
which runs our general sense of smell.

 ...
Some scientists have speculated that the signals from the main olfactory
system, situated further up the nose than the VNO, go to higher regions of
the brain where scents can be associated with memories. Signals from the
VNO, however, if it works, may be routed directly into brain regions
responsible for more unconscious and instinctive behaviour.

The team at the Harvard Medical School and the Massachusetts General
Hospital have isolated a molecule, called TRP2, that acts as a trigger for
pheromone reception on the VNO. It works in mice and rats but apparently
humans do not have either the same molecule or the nerve connections found
in rodent that are sensitive to pheromones.

Professor Dulac believes that talk of a sixth sense is nonsense but that
pheromones may play an as yet unappreciated role in human behaviour.

===
Robert F. Tatman
Computer Help Desk
Desktop  LAN Services
Systems Department
Philadelphia Newspapers, Inc.
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
215.854.2729
215.854.2788
The contents of this message represent the opinion only of the writer, and
may not be construed to indicate the endorsement of Knight-Ridder, Inc.;
Philadelphia Newspapers, Inc.; The Philadelphia Inquirer; or the
Philadelphia Daily News.
"Artificial intelligence is no match for natural stupidity."

DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary 

Re: [CTRL] [Fwd: Fw: CONSUMER WARNING/PHONING - ACTION ALERT - PL EASE POST!]

[Tatman, Robert]

 -Caveat Lector-

Wouldn't surprise me at all that Quaker Oats was GE... The name "Quaker
Oats" was originally chosen in the 19th century because "Quaker" had come to
mean "guaranteed quality." The irony is that today it means Cap'n Crunch and
genetically-engineered oatmeal, at least to Wall Street.

 -Original Message-
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
 Sent: Wednesday, December 15, 1999 10:11 PM
 To:   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Subject:  Re: [CTRL] [Fwd: Fw: CONSUMER WARNING/PHONING - ACTION ALERT
 - PLEASE POST!]

  -Caveat Lector-

 On 14 Dec 99, at 13:07, piper wrote:

  GE Foods
  --

 I was surprised to see Quaker Oats on your list. Does this mean
 that Quaker Oats Oatmeal is GE Oats? If it is, I certainly
 won't buy it again.

 sno0wl



DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

Archives Available at:
http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html

http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/

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Om

Re: [CTRL] Politically Correct Jesus

[Tatman, Robert]

 -Caveat Lector-

Second Isaiah is the part of Isaiah starting with 40:1, "Comfort, comfort ye
my people, saith your God..." The style is very different from the earlier
chapters, indicating a different author of the same prophetic school. Look
at it from the viewpoint of a Jewish scholar, who obviously isn't interested
in Jesus as Messiah: this part of Isaiah was probably written just before
the Exile, when Israel (the northern part of the Divided Kingdom) had been
absorbed by Babylon and Judea was waiting nervously for the ravening beast
to turn in its direction. There was already a tendency to personify Israel,
which would become much more significant after the return. Read through
Kings and Chronicles--all of the evils visited upon the two kingdoms are
attributed to monarchs who "departed from the ways of his fathers..."; that
is, turned to the old semi-pagan forms of worship instead of worshipping
Yahweh alone. By the same token, anything good is because the king "walked
in the paths of righteousness." The Suffering Servant verses focus on the
evil periods, and (according to this interpretation) portray Israel (the
land, not the kingdom) as bearing the brunt of the people's sins. This is a
quite legitimate interpretation from a Jewish viewpoint; the Christian
assumption that it applies to Jesus is based on Jesus' application of its
metaphors to himself. Indeed, there is some evidence that Jesus deliberately
sought to embody *all* of the many different messianic images found in the
Hebrew Scriptures.

 -Original Message-
 From: Terry Trainor [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
 Sent: Thursday, December 16, 1999 7:22 AM
 To:   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Subject:  Re: [CTRL] Politically Correct Jesus

  -Caveat Lector-

 Hmm.  There's only one Isaiah.  This passage is located in Isaiah 53:3.
 Reading the entire chapter (only 12 verses) leaves one with little doubt
 that it is Jesus being spoken of here.  Like that 'All we like sheep have
 gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the Lord hath
 laid
 on him the iniquity of us all' (53:6), and 'He was wounded for our
 transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: . . .' (53:5).  With
 all
 respect to modern scholars, I don't see how Israel bore my sins, spent
 time
 in prison, or was punished by God for my failures.

  -Original Message-
  From: Tatman, Robert [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
  Sent: Wednesday, December 15, 1999 3:34 PM
  To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  Subject: Re: [CTRL] Politically Correct Jesus
 
 
   -Caveat Lector-
 
  It *is* in Second Isaiah, but I can't remember the exact
  verse. The verse
  forms one of the most striking passages in Handel's
  *Messiah*: "He was a man
  of sorrows and acquainted with grief." It's part of the
  "suffering servant"
  theme, which many modern scholars believe refers not to a
  specific person
  but rather to Eretz Israel, the ever-suffering Land of Israel itself.
  Evangelical theologians, of course, generally consider the "suffering
  servant" passages to apply to Jesus Christ.
 


DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

Archives Available at:
http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html

http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/

To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email:
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Om

Re: [CTRL] June: Market crash and martial law

[Tatman, Robert]

 -Caveat Lector-

All hail Discordia! Hail, She What Done It All! fnord

 -Original Message-
 From: Das GOAT [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
 Sent: Thursday, December 16, 1999 8:27 AM
 To:   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Subject:  Re: [CTRL] June: Market crash and martial law

  -Caveat Lector-

 In a message dated 99-12-16 07:25:30 EST, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

 I'm referring to people following the advice you all give:
 if they do, they will bring about the very thing you fear...
 
 Or do you?  I always hear an undertone of glee in all of you Chicken
 Little's predictions...

 Ah, how perceptive of you ...  Yes, we "doomsayers" dearly HOPE for the
 catastrophic conditions we "warn" you of, because --and I'm sorry if I'll
 have to break ranks with my class and let the cat out of the bag-- CHAOS
 is
 more conducive to LIBERTY than any known form of "ORDER" has been.
 "Anarchy," not "organization," is man's NATURAL state, and it worked
 perfectly well for everyone (except predators) for 40 thousand years --
 until
 those sociopathic con men called our "leaders" gained an unfair edge with
 secret weapons, back in the Bronze and Iron Age.  On to a new Golden Age,
 I
 say, through the ONLY opportunities for FREEDOM that we will EVER be
 permitted, in the "Kali Yuga"!

 Hail Eris!   [Written with tongue in cheek, but I wonder ... My jaw is
 clenched too ...]

 "Those who would sacrifice LIBERTY for SECURITY deserve NEITHER" --Ben
 Franklin



DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

Archives Available at:
http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html

http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/

To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email:
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Om

Re: [CTRL] Politically Correct Jesus

[Tatman, Robert]

 -Caveat Lector-

Terry, I didn't say I *believed* that hypothesis...only that someone
suggested it. (As it happens, it was Robert Graves in a novel called *King
Jesus*, which is probably Graves's oddest book. Hugh Schoenfeld's *The
Passover Plot* and its sequels say much the same thing.) However, because it
involves a conspiracy, whether genuine or not, I'd suggest that it actually
*is* a legitimate topic for this list.

Brief personal statement: I'm a Christian. The Jesus of the Gospels speaks
to me. The Apostle Paul speaks to me. When I read the Bible, I don't expect
to find an absolutely correct historical record. The Bible is a *faith
document*...the records of two thousand years of a people's dealings with
God. When I read about Jesus' birth, his Passion, his death and
Resurrection, I don't go looking for validation from the archaeological
record, *because it doesn't matter to me* what the archaeologists think. If
they never find *any* evidence that Jesus actually existed, it *still*
doesn't matter to me, because I know in my heart, in my soul, in my deepest
center, that Jesus Christ is real and that he is the Way, the Truth, and the
Life. I don't need physical proof to know that.

 -Original Message-
 From: Terry Trainor [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
 Sent: Thursday, December 16, 1999 1:29 PM
 To:   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Subject:  Re: [CTRL] Politically Correct Jesus

  -Caveat Lector-

 CTRL is not the proper forum, so I will not go into detail concerning
 your several statements here.  Needless to say, I am not of the school
 of J, P, Q, or any of that other modern crud.  But your last statement
 I simply cannot let pass without comment.

  -Original Message-
  From: Tatman, Robert [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
  Sent: Thursday, December 16, 1999 12:01 PM
  To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  Subject: Re: [CTRL] Politically Correct Jesus
 

 Kerschnip

  Indeed, there is some evidence that
  Jesus deliberately
  sought to embody *all* of the many different messianic images
  found in the
  Hebrew Scriptures.

 Like deliberately being born of a virgin?
 like deliberately seeking to be nailed to a cross Between two thieves?
 Like deliberately seeking to have a sword rammed into his side?
 Like deliberately dying?
 Like deliberately being resurrected by God the Father?

 Gee - some guys will do ANYTHING for fame, huh?

 kerschnip



DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
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be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

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Om

Re: [CTRL] Millennium Wingding

[Tatman, Robert]

 -Caveat Lector-

Cute! I guess The Gates really *is* the Antichrist, eh?

 -Original Message-
 From: earthman [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
 Sent: Thursday, December 16, 1999 5:17 PM
 To:   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Subject:  [CTRL] Millennium Wingding

  -Caveat Lector-

 Love it..

 Peter

 Heres a little something



 What lies ahead of us in the new millennium?
 Will it be peace on earth or a time of great unrest?

 The answer may be hidden in the word itself.
 Check this out...

 1.  In MS Word, type the word MILLENNIUM in upper case.
 2.  Change the font to Wingdings and increase the font size to something
 legible.

 You decide



DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

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Om

Re: [CTRL] Lyme vaccine

[Tatman, Robert]

 -Caveat Lector-

Actually, that's our YANKEE cousins...Lyme disease was named after Lyme,
Connecticut, IIRC. Now, if they could develop a vaccine against
Republicans...

 -Original Message-
 From: Nurev Ind Research [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
 Sent: Thursday, December 16, 1999 6:13 PM
 To:   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Subject:  Re: [CTRL] Lyme vaccine

  -Caveat Lector-

 Dave wrote:
 
   -Caveat Lector-
 
  Dave Hartley
  http://www.Asheville-Computer.com/dave
 
  http://www.sightings.com/health3/kline.htm
  SmithKline Sued Over
  Lyme Vaccine

 This is outrageous racism! Why would anybody develop a vacine against
 our English cousins???
 Just because they suckered us into 2 world wars? Let's put it all behind
 us
 I say.

 Joshua2

 DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
 ==
 CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting
 propagandic
 screeds are not allowed. Substance-not soapboxing!  These are sordid
 matters
 and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and
 outright
 frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor
 effects
 spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
 gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to
 readers;
 be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
 nazi's need not apply.

 Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.
 
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 Om

DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
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screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

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Om

Re: [CTRL] Neo-Liberal Wins Re-Election in SF

[Tatman, Robert]

 -Caveat Lector-

I gather that Willie Brown will be the best mayor that money can buy.

 -Original Message-
 From: Das GOAT [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
 Sent: Wednesday, December 15, 1999 9:24 AM
 To:   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Subject:  [CTRL] Neo-Liberal Wins Re-Election in SF

  -Caveat Lector-

  "Ammiano ran for Mayor on a platform of undoing corporate tax breaks,
 imposing campaign finance reforms, giving neighborhoods more local say
 over
 developments and declaring an ``immediate war' on gentrification to
 preserve
 affordable housing.
  "Alarmed corporations, union leaders, and real estate developers
 poneyed
 up nearly $2 million to ensure the election of his opponent, incumbent
 Democrat Willie Brown."

  During the last weeks of the campaign, fellow-traveller "liberals"
 Bill
 Clinton and Jesse Jackson flew to San Francisco to publicly pledge their
 support for Brown.

  I voted AGAINST Brown, of course.  The Bad Guys won -- as usual.
  Proof again that "Democracy will never work, because when it comes
 down
 to voting for 'the lesser of two evils,'  supporters of evil outnumber
 everyone else at the polls."
  Brown was re-elected by 60% of a 30% voter turnout -- in other words,
 by
 only 20% of the citizenry of San Francisco.  Nowadays in America, that's
 called a "landslide."

snip

DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
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Om

Re: [CTRL] Politically Correct Jesus

[Tatman, Robert]

 -Caveat Lector-

It *is* in Second Isaiah, but I can't remember the exact verse. The verse
forms one of the most striking passages in Handel's *Messiah*: "He was a man
of sorrows and acquainted with grief." It's part of the "suffering servant"
theme, which many modern scholars believe refers not to a specific person
but rather to Eretz Israel, the ever-suffering Land of Israel itself.
Evangelical theologians, of course, generally consider the "suffering
servant" passages to apply to Jesus Christ.

 -Original Message-
 From: Das GOAT [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
 Sent: Wednesday, December 15, 1999 5:26 AM
 To:   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Subject:  Re: [CTRL] Politically Correct Jesus

  -Caveat Lector-

 In a message dated 99-12-14 13:52:52 EST, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

 Actually, there is a sort of underground tradition, mostly in the later
 New
 Testament apocrypha, that Jesus was in fact an ugly man ...

 That tradition seems to have originated with one of the seldom-quoted Old
 Testament "prophecies" regarding the coming of the Messiah, therein
 called, I
 believe, the "man of sorrows."  When correctly translated from the
 original
 Hebrew, it describes him as a man totally lacking in physical
 attractveness,
 even ugly, AND as socially rejected for his appearance, like a thorn among
 roses or whatever.  (It's been treated as "just a metaphor" by Christians
 who
 know of it, but the description in context is a literal one, and, apart
 from
 the desire to make the Savior one of the "beautiful people," there's no
 other
 reason to doubt it being a simple statement of fact.  To sidestep the
 implications of that conclusion, in fact, some Biblicists even resort to a
 Talmudic sleight of hand, claiming that "prophecy" refers not to the One
 Yet
 to Come but to MOSES long ago.
 My OWN understanding, for what it's worth, is that it refers to NEITHER
 and
 is not a "prophecy" at all but describes an historic person, a "failed"
 Messiah ca. 400 BC.)

 If no one else comes forward first with the passage in question, which I
 seem
 to recall is found in Second Isaiah, I'll look it up when I have more time
 and post it here myself.



DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

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Om

Re: [CTRL] Politically Correct Jesus

[Tatman, Robert]

 -Caveat Lector-

Actually, there is a sort of underground tradition, mostly in the later New
Testament apocrypha, that Jesus was in fact an ugly man with one twisted
leg. Paul is also reported to have been a cripple, possibly bow-legged from
rickets; note that while *Paulos* has no specific meaning in Greek, one
meaning of its Latin homonym *paulus* is "lame".

 -Original Message-
 From: Tenorlove [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
 Sent: Tuesday, December 14, 1999 10:58 AM
 To:   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Subject:  Re: [CTRL] Politically Correct Jesus

  -Caveat Lector-

 --- YnrChyldzWyld [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 
  More of a chance of him looking like Arafat than Allen...
 

 If that's the case, Jesus would truly have my pity, 'cause Arafat is
 ONE PLUG UGLY DUDE!


DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

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Om

Re: [CTRL] Indictment Sought for Scientist Lee (fwd)

[Tatman, Robert]

 -Caveat Lector-

Basically zilch, aside from having all of his privileges as a former DCI
revoked. No criminal charges were filed.

 -Original Message-
 From: Prudence L. Kuhn [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
 Sent: Tuesday, December 14, 1999 1:36 PM
 To:   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Subject:  Re: [CTRL] Indictment Sought for Scientist Lee (fwd)

  -Caveat Lector-

 In a message dated 12/10/1999 6:47:35 PM Eastern Standard Time,
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

  It was not until after he was fired that authorities discovered
  that Lee, around 1994, had improperly transferred thousands of
  computer codes, the "legacy codes" that provide a history of
  nuclear weapons development, from Los Alamos' highly secured
  computer system to his less-secure personal office computer. 

 Does anyone know what happened in the case of the former head of the CIA
 who
 had all kinds of highly classified material that he had taken from CIA
 computers and transferred to his home computer?  Prudy



DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

Archives Available at:
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Om

Re: [CTRL] $Capitalism at work.$

[Tatman, Robert]

 -Caveat Lector-

Cooptation. It's the simplest way to neutralize your actual or potential
opponents. We're just lucky that enough good people reject the cooptation
that opposing voices are still heard in the Forum...not enough, but some.

 -Original Message-
 From: Nurev Ind Research [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
 Sent: Friday, December 10, 1999 11:19 PM
 To:   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Subject:  Re: [CTRL] $Capitalism at work.$

  snip
  A totalitarian state thrives on propaganda, and there
  is no more effective way to limit thought than to
  control the language itself.  By changing definitions
  of words through continual association, any serious
  discussion involving the concepts that the words
  represents becomes hopelessly muddled.
  The words "democracy," "hate" and "racism" immediately
  comes to mind. -- Thomas Sowell

 I really admire Sowell for his intellect and his honesty,
 but he is after all is said and done, a capitalist hack.
 In its latter stages, capitalism buys out its intellectuals.
 It is called apologetics.

 J2

snip

DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

Archives Available at:
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Om

Re: [CTRL] IRS LOSES EVIDENCE

[Tatman, Robert]

 -Caveat Lector-

Uh-huh...Landmark would be perfectly happy, of course, if the audits were
being done on liberal and progressive groups. To quote Martin Luther, "it
all depends whose ox is being gored."

 -Original Message-
 From: Tenorlove [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
 Sent: Friday, December 10, 1999 11:39 PM
 To:   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Subject:  [CTRL] IRS "LOSES" EVIDENCE

  -Caveat Lector-

 from http://cc.org/news/issues.html

 2 - IN THE NEWS

 IRS "LOSES" EVIDENCE - The IRS admitted last month that they have lost
 114 files requested for review by a non-profit watchdog group.
 Earlier this year a U.S. District Court judge ordered the IRS to turn
 over the relevant documents to the Landmark Legal Foundation, a group
 that is trying to find evidence of IRS wrongdoing.  In response to the
 lost files, Landmark has charged that the IRS is destroying evidence in
 an effort to protect White House and Congressional sources who may have
 initiated politically-motivated audits, particularly of conservative,
 tax exempt groups.  The group is alleging that a 1997 IRS meeting
 instructing agents in procedures to conceal and destroy evidence was
 recorded.  That tape has since been recorded over by an IRS secretary.
 The Associated Press has reported that officials in the White House
 and Congress have prompted hundreds of audits of political opponents
 in the 1990s.
 __


DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

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Om

Re: [CTRL] The Great Seattle Anarchist Mystery - Solved ?

[Tatman, Robert]

 -Caveat Lector-

Hmm. So just who was being trained during Urban Warrior--the grunts or the
"demonstrators"? A very interesting suggestion.

 -Original Message-
 From: Dave [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
 Sent: Saturday, December 11, 1999 3:05 AM
 To:   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Subject:  [CTRL] The Great Seattle "Anarchist" Mystery - Solved ?

  -Caveat Lector-

 food for thought...

 Dave Hartley
 http://www.Asheville-Computer.com/dave



 The Great Seattle "Anarchist" Mystery - Solved
 by Brasscheck 12:37pm Sat Dec 4 '99


 What happened to the masked vandals
 who sabatoged the peaceful anti-WTO
 demonstration with the help of Seattle police? The
 police say they arrested "several" of them, but now
 won't give details. The local news media
 doesn't care.

 Does this make sense to you?


  snip

 Do US government agencies, from local law
 enforcement on up, ever stage violent events to justify repressive
 measures when they want to silence dissent or amputate civil liberties?

 Are government employeed agents ever explicitly trained to act as rioters?

 For an affirmative answer to the last question,
 see this picture taken from the
 Marine Corps Urban Advanced Warfare web site:

 http://www.brasscheck.com/seattle/mia.html 

 Nine months before the Seattle WTO meeting, the US military,
 with NATO guests, conducted a massive urban warfare training
 exercise in Oakland and other parts of Northern California. West coast
 police
 departments were invited to participate.

snip

DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

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Om

Re: [CTRL] Did The Vikings Name America?

[Tatman, Robert]

 -Caveat Lector-

Helluland, Markland, and Vinland are well-attested from the sagas. Please
show me where in the sagas the name "Ommerike" occurs. If there were any
truth to this blatant exercise in North European chauvinism, we would find
evidence for the name's use in the sagas. Q.E.D.

 -Original Message-
 From: Bill Kingsbury [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
 Sent: Saturday, December 11, 1999 2:19 AM
 To:   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Subject:  [CTRL] Did The Vikings Name America?

  -Caveat Lector-

  http://www.orangestreet.demon.co.uk/Vikings.htm


  Did The Vikings Name America?

  snip


  Therefore, it is herewith submitted that the word "America" is
  simply a phonetic derivation of an ancient Norse compound word
  "omme-rike".  In its simplest translation from the largely
  four-letter language of the Viking discoverers of the New World,
  it means "the remotest land".  The various parts of the New World
  were referred to in the Icelandic Sagas as Helluland (Stoneland),
  Markland (Woodland) and Vineland (Wineland).  "Omme-rike" would
  have been the logical name to apply to the great land mass as a
  whole.

  snip


DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

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Om

Re: [CTRL] [Fwd: FWD: A CENTURY OF U.S. MILITARY INTERVENTIONS:]

[Tatman, Robert]

 -Caveat Lector-

More like *two* centuries of U.S. military interventions...

IIRC, the first U.S. intervention in Indochina was in *1848*, when U.S.
Marines landed in Tonkin to protect American traders from pirates.

And, of course, by the 1790s, U.S. naval and Marine forces were being used
for similar protection in the Mediterranean, most notably off the Barbary
Coast (including the city of Tripoli, now capital of Libya...whence "the
shores of Tripoli" in the Marine Hymn).

Also, the Mexican War in the 1840s was a classic war of imperialism, perhaps
the most blatant military intervention in U.S. history. Among other things,
the war produced a generation of U.S. Army officers who would, twenty years
later, lead the armies of North and South in the Civil War. It also produced
Henry David Thoreau's essay "On Civil Disobedience". Thoreau refused to pay
the special excise tax levied to pay for the war and was thrown into Concord
Town Jail. Emerson encountered him at the door of the jail (security was not
very stringent) and exclaimed, "Why Henry! What are you doing in there?"
Thoreau replied, "The question is not what I am doing in here...but what
*you* are doing out *there*."

 -Original Message-
 From: Nurev Ind Research [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
 Sent: Saturday, December 11, 1999 9:28 AM
 To:   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Subject:  [CTRL] [Fwd: FWD: A CENTURY OF U.S. MILITARY INTERVENTIONS:]

  -Caveat Lector-

  Original Message 
 Subject: FWD: A CENTURY OF U.S. MILITARY INTERVENTIONS:
 Date: Sat, 11 Dec 1999 14:15:51 +0200

 A CENTURY OF U.S. MILITARY INTERVENTIONS:
 From Wounded Knee to Yugoslavia

 Compiled by Zoltan Grossman

 The following is a partial list of U.S. military interventions
 from 1890 to 1999. snipped for space

DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

Archives Available at:
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Om

Re: [CTRL] Y1K and GERBERT, the First European

[Tatman, Robert]

 -Caveat Lector-

Yes, of course...I had forgotten "the Head" in *That Hideous Strength*. I
first read the Perelandra Trilogy in seventh grade, and came back to it only
a couple of years ago. June, you're absolutely right about Lewis's
prescience. The book is  chilling...and perhaps Lewis's best writing aside
from *The Screwtape Letters*.

 -Original Message-
 From: YnrChyldzWyld [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
 Sent: Saturday, December 11, 1999 5:19 PM
 To:   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Subject:  Re: [CTRL] Y1K and GERBERT, the First "European"

  -Caveat Lector-

 On Fri, 10 Dec 1999, Tatman, Robert wrote:
 It's related to Baphomet, and also to the talking brass head that Roger
 Bacon is supposed to have had. BTW, for an excellent historical fantasy
 based on the Gerbert story, see Judith Tarr's *Ars Magica*--a
 well-written,
 meticulously-researched novel by a trained medievalist.

 For another relatively modern spin on the 'talking head' and its
 use by evil forces, read "That Hideous Strength", the third book
 in C. S. Lewis' "Perelandra" trilogy...

 I reread it a couple of years ago (having originally read it in the early
 70s), and was impressed with how prescient Lewis was in predicting what
 is now modern society...especially his vision of a world run by a
 superconglomerate, a 'new world order', as it were...


 June ;-)



DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

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Om

Re: [CTRL] Dec14 Frontline TV Snitches to reair

[Tatman, Robert]

 -Caveat Lector-

Last month I got mugged on my way to the train after work. I was jumped from
behind and wrestled down, wrenching my (already bad) left arm in the
process. I tried calling for the police, as a police substation is half a
block from there, but they must all have been on a doughnut break... The
thief kept yelling, "Gimme my stuff, gimme my stuff!" as he yanked my wallet
out of my trousers. Somehow I actually made my train; my pass had been in my
coat pocket, thank God... When I got home, I tried to call in a report, but
was told that I would have to come back in town and report it *in person*.
Needless to say, I did *not* go back to make the report. The next day I had
the arm looked at in the ER at the hospital--badly sprained but nothing
more--and took the rest of that day and the next off. And I never *did*
report the crime to the police. I cancelled all of my credit cards, etc.;
because my long-distance calling card was in the wallet, we had our phone
number changed to an unlisted one. Since then I have used the escort shuttle
service that the company's security guards provide. As a footnote, whenever
management decides to trim the budget, the first thing they look at is the
escort service (rather than the bloated salaries of top managers). The
union, however, keeps a log of all employees who have been mugged on the way
from work, and whenever management tries to cut the service, they show them
the list... Needless to say, none of the managers walks to work or takes the
train.

 -Original Message-
 From: Das GOAT [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
 Sent: Monday, December 13, 1999 7:13 AM
 To:   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Subject:  Re: [CTRL] Dec14 Frontline TV Snitches to reair

  -Caveat Lector-

snip Life is cheap in a
 big city.  Violent crimes don't even get reported unless it's unavoidable
 --
 because high crime rates make the  politicians look bad and make the
 "business community" (especially the real estate lobby) worry about its
 profits.  Here in San Francisco, no one ever sees a police car unless the
 cops are out hassling the homeless (always a big priority for City Hall)
 or
 protecting some landlord's or merchant's property. Only money matters;
 life
 is cheap.
 The "right" people (defined by incomes over $60K a year) will of course be
 kept safe.  The rest of us are being left to die on the street, one way or
 another, BY DEFAULT.

snip

DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

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Om

Re: [CTRL] Fwd: Black Bloc and obsessive analysis

[Tatman, Robert]

 -Caveat Lector-

Nessie, in all candor, this is the one case that has caused more serious
debate within the nonviolent community than any other. I don't have an
answer for you. I do know people who genuinely feel that violent resistance,
even to rape or murder, is so totally evil that they cannot even contemplate
it. I know others who are firm advocates of nonviolent civil disobedience,
but who draw the line at endangering their loved ones. There are still
others who view nonviolence as a political tactic, and do not extend it to
their own personal lives. Nessie, I am honestly not sure where I stand on
this. It's something I've struggled with for many years, and I haven't been
able to come anywhere near clearness on it.

 -Original Message-
 From: nessie [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
 Sent: Thursday, December 09, 1999 9:14 PM
 To:   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Subject:  Re: [CTRL] Fwd: Black Bloc and obsessive analysis

  -Caveat Lector-

 Violence is violence, no matter what or who the target is.

 Are you saying that somebody who is being raped or murdered should not
 resist?

 DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
 ==
 CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting
 propagandic
 screeds are not allowed. Substance-not soapboxing!  These are sordid
 matters
 and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and
 outright
 frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor
 effects
 spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
 gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to
 readers;
 be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
 nazi's need not apply.

 Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.
 
 Archives Available at:
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 Om

DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

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Om

Re: [CTRL] Skeptic News - Thursday #2 - y2k minus 23

[Tatman, Robert]

 -Caveat Lector-

Uh...doesn't that take it something like half the human race? Are you
offering *this* as the explanation for the War Between the Sexes?

 -Original Message-
 From: Ric Carter [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
 Sent: Friday, December 10, 1999 12:12 AM
 To:   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Subject:  [CTRL] Skeptic News - Thursday #2 - y2k minus 23

"Don't trust anything that bleeds for 5 days and doesn't die."
--anon

DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

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Om

Re: [CTRL] Fwd: violence in Seattle

[Tatman, Robert]

 -Caveat Lector-

The present social order is so firmly rooted in violence--the violence of
property, the violence of greed, the violence of racism, the violence of
capitalism--that only a society which totally rejects violence can have any
hope of truly changing anything. Nessie, tell me, what is the essential
difference between the violence of nihilists trashing store windows and the
violence of police beating up demonstrators? And please don't say that
vandalism is not violence--it sure as hell is violence when you pick up a
brick and throw it through a window...or at a cop. Nonviolence doesn't
defend corporate property. Violence defends corporate property. Violence
legitimates counter-violence. It's the old Tar-Baby Principle: you are
attached to what you attack. Remember this:

They nailed Love to a Cross,
Symbolic of their might.
But Love was undefeated:
It simply didn't fight.

When you commit violence, be it against the state, a corporation, or another
human being, you commit violence against yourself. With each blow you
strike, you die a small death...and sooner rather than later you are no
different from the thugs and provocateurs doing the bosses' dirty work. It's
no hypocrisy to stop you from throwing that brick; it's an act of grace, an
effort (not to mince words) to save your soul. *That's* why the nonviolent
demonstrators stood in the way of your violence. If some people succumbed to
the temptation to use your own tactics against you, shame on them; they lost
their discipline. But people truly committed to nonviolence as a way of life
must condemn and oppose *all* violence, no matter who commits it. Forget the
"leftists" and the liberal shills...listen to the voices of the real
nonviolent community, and you won't find anyone defending the police. But
neither will you find anyone defending the nihilists.

 -Original Message-
 From: nessie [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
 Sent: Friday, December 10, 1999 12:52 AM
 To:   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Subject:  [CTRL] Fwd: violence in Seattle

  -Caveat Lector-
snip

 Adherents to non-violent protest methods have always preached in the most
 self-righteous of tones against the strategy of targeting corporate
 property. We feel that their "morality" is actually an uncritical
 acceptance of the essence of corporate ideology, which elevates fictional
 corporate entities to the status of human beings, violently imposes an
 identity between these two categories of "persons," and thus demands
 "equal
 protection" under the law for both. Because corporations (only) serve the
 interests of certain individuals, the inevitable result of this "equal
 protection for all" is actually double-protection for corporate "persons"
 and no protection for real ones. The destruction of corporate property is
 the positive affirmation of autonomous human society and its right to be
 in
 control of its institutions, rather than be controlled by them.

 But, this time, in Seattle, the "moral" non-violent protesters did more
 than preach to the unconverted: they actually acted like cops until the
 real cops came and took over. Using their numerical advantage, the
 non-violent protesters surrounded, denounced, un-masked, beat up and
 actually turned over to the police the practitioners of violent protest.
 In
 doing so, the "moral majority" among the anti-WTO protesters not only
 helped the police and the National Guard do their dirty work, but they
 also
 assisted in the larger and more long-term effort to criminalize radical
 political philosophies that is taking place all over this country and
 through-out the rest of the world. Ironically, the "moral majority" was
 compensated for its counter-revolutionary efforts with indiscriminate and
 unprovoked beatings, gassings, shootings and arrests.

 It is both appalling and quite telling that none of the professionals who
 have denounced the controlled violence of the anarchists -- neither the
 mainstream commentators and politicians nor the leftist activists -- have
 denounced the unrestrained violence against people (not property)
 committed
 in Seattle by the police forces and the National Guard.
snip

DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

Archives Available at:
http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html

http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/

Re: [CTRL] Monsanto Government Regulatory Agency Employees Ar e The Same People!!

[Tatman, Robert]

 -Caveat Lector-

Ah yes, the old revolving door...there's nothing like it...

 -Original Message-
 From: earthman [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
 Sent: Friday, December 10, 1999 1:52 AM
 To:   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Subject:  [CTRL] Monsanto  Government  Regulatory Agency Employees
 Are The Same People!!

  -Caveat Lector-

 - Original Message - From: RJ [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: RJ
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, December 10, 1999 6:10 PM Subject:
 [earthchanges] Monsanto  Government Regulatory Agency Employees Are The
 Same People!!

snip

DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

Archives Available at:
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Om

Re: [CTRL] Why Jesse's death got no play - 12-9-99

[Tatman, Robert]

 -Caveat Lector-

Both crimes are crimes of violence. Both have more to do with power and fear
than with sex. Homosexuality in itself surely can't be considered a crime,
any more than *heterosexuality* can. But killing a gay person *because* he's
gay is *two* crimes: first, homicide; second, hatred that leads to violence.
Rape and murder are evil, no matter who commits them, and doubly so when the
victim is a child. I don't care if these rapist-murderers were gay,
straight, polygamist, or polymorphous-perverse...their sexual orientation
has nothing to do with the violent nature of the act.

 -Original Message-
 From: Tenorlove [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
 Sent: Friday, December 10, 1999 7:22 AM
 To:   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Subject:  Re: [CTRL] Why Jesse's death got no play  - 12-9-99

  -Caveat Lector-

 Another double standard--anything done against a homosexual is a "hate
 crime" but rape is still being defined as a crime of "lust." This
 serves to make the gay perpetrators of little Jesse's rape/murder into
 "victims." Makes one want to become a card-carrying member of Operation
 Clydesdale.

 Tenorlove



DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

Archives Available at:
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Om

Re: [CTRL] Fwd: Konformist: Diana as the Madonna

[Tatman, Robert]

 -Caveat Lector-

Kelly, what you say may be true from a strict theological standpoint, but
let me assure you that the average person-in-the-street will view it
differently. Mariolatry comes perilously close to heresy as it is; adding
the doctrine of Mary as CoRedemptrix only makes it easier for people to
consider her to be actually divine. And please pay close attention to the
things that have been posted on the list about the creation of a New Age
religion centered on Diana...something is definitely evolving in that
direction, with some highly sophisticated psyops encouraging it.
Developments concerning Mary only feed that tendency.

 -Original Message-
 From: Kelly [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
 Sent: Friday, December 10, 1999 9:18 AM
 To:   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Subject:  Re: [CTRL] Fwd: Konformist: Diana as the Madonna

  -Caveat Lector-

 Tatman, Robert wrote:


  It is widely expected by Vatican watchers that Pope John Paul II will
 use
  the occasion of the Jubilee Year 2000 with its attendant gigantic
  pilgrimages to Rome to formally proclaim the doctrine of Mary as
  Co-Redemptrix, the equal of Jesus Christ as agent of human
 salvation...thus
  effectively expanding the Holy Trinity to a Holy Quaternity or Holy
  Foursome, and presenting the Western World with its first
  officially-sanctioned female deity since the conversion of the last
 European
  pagans at the end of the Middle Ages.

 The Co-Redemptrix thinking doesn't work that way.  Mary is a human being
 - a creature - and would never be considered Jesus' equal nor would she
 ever be considered a deity.  What Co-Redemptrix means is actually quite
 subtle and a little difficult for me to explain without my books - but
 basically it means that God loves Mary more than any other *creature*
 and so he gave his son to the world through Mary.  So the thinking is
 that she is thus the Co-Redeemer.  Similar thoughts are that the Trinity
 like it when people pray not *to* Mary but *through* Mary to Jesus or
 God, because he so loves her that he will not refuse anything she
 requests of Him.

 So, Mary is and was and always will be considered a *creature* or a
 creation of God - the one most loved by God though.

 Now, I am sure a theologian could explain it better than this, sorry.

 Kelly

 DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
 ==
 CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting
 propagandic
 screeds are not allowed. Substance-not soapboxing!  These are sordid
 matters
 and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and
 outright
 frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor
 effects
 spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
 gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to
 readers;
 be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
 nazi's need not apply.

 Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.
 
 Archives Available at:
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 To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email:
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 Om

DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

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Re: [CTRL] FW: Chemical war in Seattle-The World's Still Watching -

[Tatman, Robert]

 -Caveat Lector-

If this report is correct, and assuming that the symptoms described cannot
be attributed to other causes such as stress, the symptoms identified appear
to match those produced by the nerve agents VX (sarin) and GB. It will be
extremely interesting to see if any of the canisters brought in have yellow
stripes on them; this is the standard ID for chemical nerve agents. (My
suspicion is however that any such canisters will have been disguised as
"regular" CS or CN.)

 -Original Message-
 From: Dave [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
 Sent: Wednesday, December 08, 1999 11:11 PM
 To:   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Subject:  [CTRL] FW: Chemical war in Seattle-The World's Still
 Watching-

  -Caveat Lector-

 Dave Hartley
 http://www.Asheville-Computer.com/dave

 =

 [Seattle Independent Media Center]
 The Seattle Indy Media Center is a
 coalition of many independent media
 organizations and producers, offering
 live coverage of the WTO protests
 ignored by the corporate media.

 Latest News:

 Neurotoxic Symptoms In Chemical Warfare
 Casualties At Seattle WTO Meeting
 by kirk james murphy, MD
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] 10:04am
 Tue Dec 7 '99

 Direct Action Network Medical
 Collective members provided first aid
 and other  care for thousands of
 casualties of chemical warfare during
 the Seattle WTO protests.

 Collective members identified a subset
 of casualties with  symptoms consistent
  with exposure to neurotoxins which
 disrupt  acetylcholine irritant agents
 do not explain the symptoms.

snip

DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

Archives Available at:
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Om

Re: [CTRL] People in America early

[Tatman, Robert]

 -Caveat Lector-

ISTR that some archaeologists identify the Jomon culture with the ancestors
of the Ainu, who inhabited the entire Japanese archipelago before the
arrival of the ancestral Japanese, probably from Korea. This is of course
quite controversial in Japan.

 -Original Message-
 From: Das GOAT [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
 Sent: Thursday, December 09, 1999 4:53 AM
 To:   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Subject:  Re: [CTRL] People in America early

  -Caveat Lector-

  New World colonists from the mysterious Jomon culture?


  DNA links Japanese with ancient Andeans

  by Steve Connor
  London Independent, Dec 1, 1999

  Scientists have established a direct link between the present-day
 inhabitants of Japan and the ancient Andeans by studying the DNA of
 mummies
 recovered from the Atacama Desert in Chile.
  snip
  The findings show that...  the Asiatic ancestors of the Andeans ...
 migrated to Alaska across the frozen Bering Strait more than 20,000 years
 ago
 to colonize North and South America.
  snip

  --Study published in the journal Nature Medicine, by Kazuo Tajima and
 colleagues from the Aichi Cancer Center Research Institute in Nagoya,
 Japan



DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

Archives Available at:
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Om

Re: [CTRL] Fwd: Konformist: Diana as the Madonna

[Tatman, Robert]

 -Caveat Lector-

It is widely expected by Vatican watchers that Pope John Paul II will use
the occasion of the Jubilee Year 2000 with its attendant gigantic
pilgrimages to Rome to formally proclaim the doctrine of Mary as
Co-Redemptrix, the equal of Jesus Christ as agent of human salvation...thus
effectively expanding the Holy Trinity to a Holy Quaternity or Holy
Foursome, and presenting the Western World with its first
officially-sanctioned female deity since the conversion of the last European
pagans at the end of the Middle Ages.

 -Original Message-
 From: Kris Millegan [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
 Sent: Thursday, December 09, 1999 11:20 AM
 To:   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Subject:  [CTRL] Fwd: Konformist: Diana as the Madonna

  snipped

DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

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Om

[CTRL] FW: WTO, etc.

[Tatman, Robert]

 -Caveat Lector-

Some comments extracted from a personal e-mail from a family member in
Seattle commenting on the WTO foofaraw, edited slightly:
...
[A source] high up in King County government ... had some comments on how
Seattle government handled the mess. [The source] said that the county and
other local and state agencies offered to help Seattle manage the situation.
They were initially turned down, and then when things were at their worst
(Wednesday), they got calls for help, but of course could not respond in
time.

 That Norm Stamper resigned as police chief is a good thing. Although he
 personally holds values that seem liberal and compatible with Seattle's
 reputation, he did a poor job of managing his department, with the result
 that the policeman's union and the rank and file really do a lot of acting
 on their own. From a community perspective, police have felt out of
 control for some time, very uneven from precinct to precinct. I'm glad to
 see him go, but worry about who will take his place, and the tone that
 will be set.
...

DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

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Om

Re: [CTRL] People in America early

[Tatman, Robert]

 -Caveat Lector-

I'll have to dig out my Barry Fell books (*America B.C.*, etc.), which I do
not have readily available. If memory serves me, however, this is an example
of the kind of racist argument I mean (and I am not accusing Fell of racism
himself): the Welsh heroic tradition supposedly records the voyages of the
medieval prince Madoc from North Wales to North America. As some students of
Madoc interpret the story, Madoc landed on the Gulf Coast of Alabama and
worked his way inland with a band of settlers, along the way building a fort
"in archaic Welsh style" at Stone Mountain, Ga. They settled for a time in
Kentucky, according to this hypothesis, then for unknown reasons moved on to
the northwest, eventually intermarrying with and being absorbed by the
Mandan tribe of the Dakotas, who were supposed to be blue-eyed blonds. This
hypothesis was very popular during the Eighteenth Century, when virtually
all pre-Columbian earthworks in Eastern North America were attributed
variously to Egyptians, Romans, or Madoc's Welshmen, among many other
(non-Native American) peoples. One of the assignments Thomas Jefferson gave
to Lewis and Clark was to contact the Mandans and study their language, to
see how much Welsh vocabulary had survived. Other examples of this kind of
racially-oriented pseudo-archaeology include the speculation about the
"Celtic" or "Viking" origins of the Mystery Hill earthworks in New Hampshire
(which have been so extensively altered that any determination of their
origin is probably impossible); the Kensington Runestone, almost certainly a
fake; and mysterious stones with supposed "Punic" inscriptions on them
turned up by a farmer's plow in Oklahoma and adduced as evidence of
Carthaginian settlements in the New World. Virtually all of these
"discoveries" have been made in the context of efforts to "prove" that
Native Americans could not be the legitimate possessors of the land where
the artifacts were found, because (obviously white) settlers had gotten
there first.

With this said, I recognize full well that there is *much* evidence for
extensive pre-Columbian exploration and settlement by "non-Native
Americans." In fact, this can be expanded worldwide; our human ancestors
seem to have been inveterate roamers, forever wandering in search of
whatever they could find, always following the horizon. This has meant that
there is no such thing as a "pure" race, a "pure" culture, a "pure"
language...anywhere, anywhen. No one, not the Smithsonian, the Hopis, the
Maori, or the Dalai Lama, has anything approaching the truth about our
race's past. Discoveries reported just in the last year, such as "Woodhenge"
on the English North Sea coast, the "Miami Circle," and the
recently-revealed evidence for routine cannibalism among at least some
Neanderthal populations, have thrown a lot of accepted archaeological and
historical dogma into confusion. There are mysteries enough on this planet
to keep us busy until the turn of the Fourth Millennium without having to
invent new ones!

 -Original Message-
 From: Anon Ymous [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
 Sent: Thursday, December 09, 1999 9:25 AM
 To:   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Subject:  Re: [CTRL] People in America early

  -Caveat Lector-

  Even borderline researchers such as
   Barry Fell, for all their good intentions, often wind up using
 arguments
   which originated with white racists.

 Could you please give more info on this?

 tanx



DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

Archives Available at:
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Om

Re: [CTRL] Another possibility

[Tatman, Robert]

 -Caveat Lector-

This is what I'm starting to wonder. Stay tuned...

 -Original Message-
 From: nessie [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
 Sent: Thursday, December 09, 1999 1:40 AM
 To:   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Subject:  [CTRL] Another possibility

  -Caveat Lector-

 Maybe the Seattle nerve gas story is disinfo, part of of a psy-war op.



DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

Archives Available at:
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Om

Re: [CTRL] Fwd: Black Bloc and obsessive analysis

[Tatman, Robert]

 -Caveat Lector-

In Gandhian nonviolence, which is the form I hesitatingly try to follow,
this is NOT a valid distinction. Violence is violence, no matter what or who
the target is. We need to be working toward a society where even the thought
of violence simply doesn't enter into the picture. The present society is
built on a foundation of human bodies and souls, as surely as if they had
been buried beneath the walls of the United States Capitol. The Declaration
of Independence proclaims our inalienable right to Life, Liberty, and the
Pursuit of Happiness. Nowhere does it say that those rights include the
right to murder anyone who gets in your way; nowhere does it say that
trashing your opponent's means of livelihood is all right; in fact, it goes
on to accuse George III of doing just that against the people of the
American colonies. Revolutionary societies never come about because of
revolutionary wars. In every case, the real change has come about BEFORE the
war; revolutionary wars are fought to establish the legitimacy of
revolutions, not to create the revolutions themselves. And there are better,
more humane, more SANE ways of establishing the legitimacy of revolutionary
societies than by violence.

 -Original Message-
 From: nessie [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
 Sent: Thursday, December 09, 1999 1:59 AM
 To:   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Subject:  Re: [CTRL] Fwd: Black Bloc and obsessive analysis

  -Caveat Lector-

  And violence can have no part in creating such a society.

 Is it valid to distinguish between vandalism and assault?



DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

Archives Available at:
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Om

Re: [CTRL] Doctor fired for challenging Navy diagnoses

[Tatman, Robert]

 -Caveat Lector-

No surprises here... I happen to have pulmonary sarcoidosis myself, and am
well aware of the Navy's history of the disease. In fact, the Navy cases
have often been cited as exemplars of sarcoidosis, which is not exactly a
"rare disease": it is at least as common as multiple sclerosis. The symptoms
of silicosis would be virtually identical to those of sarcoidosis, which
mimics dozens of other disorders; however, the characteristic scar tissue of
sarcoidosis, called "noncaseinating granulomas," would not be present, nor
would the frequent blood abnormalities. Diagnosing sarcoidosis is a process
of ruling out everything else, and it looks very much, in light of this
story, as if the Navy's doctors either didn't bother to do all the work
required for a real diagnosis, or (more likely) deliberately misdiagnosed
the affected sailors to keep them from being able to claim service-related
disability. (I received a medical discharge from the Army in 1967 after 160
days of service, 20 days short of the 180 days needed to qualify for
disability; according to an Army Reserve colleague of my father's who was a
VA executive, this was very deliberate policy on the part of D0D to avoid as
many disability claims as possible.)

-Original Message-
From:   Steve Wingate [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent:   Wednesday, December 08, 1999 1:11 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject:[CTRL] Doctor fired for challenging Navy diagnoses

 -Caveat Lector-

Doctor fired for challenging Navy diagnoses

Copyright © 1999 Nando Media
Copyright © 1999 Associated Press
By VICKI SMITH

MORGANTOWN, W.Va. (December 6, 1999 10:25 p.m. EST
http://www.nandotimes.com) - A doctor who went public with his
belief the
Navy may have misdiagnosed hundreds of sailors exposed to
potentially
lethal mineral dust says he was fired Monday for insubordination.

Dr. Philip Jajosky, an outspoken medical investigator and 23-year
veteran
of the U.S. Public Health Service, was ordered to pack up his
belongings,
then escorted out of his office at the National Institute for
Occupational
Safety and Health here.
snip
The old diagnosis was sarcoidosis, a rare lung disorder with no
known
cause. The new diagnosis identified silicosis, a chronic respiratory
disease caused by inhaling silica, a hard, glassy mineral.

The change and Jajosky's report to the Navy led to a recommendation
by
the VA that its 172 medical centers perform detailed medical
histories on
affected sailors. There are no known estimates of how many could be
at
risk.

Jajosky's opinions on the sarcoidosis cases, if validated, could
have
enormous financial ramifications for the Navy. Compensation and
disability
payments to those who have suffered or died of lung disease could
become possibilities.
snip

DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

Archives Available at:
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Om

Re: [CTRL] The rioters' version

[Tatman, Robert]

 -Caveat Lector-

This is absolutely true. Crimes against paperwork (destruction of files,
etc.) and other forms of information are also anathema to the Oligarchs, who
regard information as a vital means of controlling the hoi polloi (i.e,
us'ns). Remember, these are men to whom Property Rights are sacred, ranking
well above human rights. Despoiling their Property is tantamount to raping
their wives and daughters in their eyes. Workers exist to create Property
for the ruling class; they have no other raison d'etre...

-Original Message-
From:   Das GOAT [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent:   Wednesday, December 08, 1999 4:53 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject:Re: [CTRL] The rioters' version

 -Caveat Lector-

In a message dated 99-12-08 03:16:41 EST, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

Another massive misrepresentation was the facile use of the word
"violence." Acts of window breaking, tire slashing, and graffiti
(whether
you love them or hate them) are not violence; such acts are called
vandalism.

The "violence" which The Powers That Be fear most is "violence"
directed
against the inanimate material objects used for raking in huge
profits --
retail outlets, commercial real property, capital equipment.  Let
the workers
die -- but don't hurt the machinery!



DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

Archives Available at:
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Om

Re: [CTRL] Skeptic News - Wednesday #1 - y2k minus 24

[Tatman, Robert]

 -Caveat Lector-

See Umberto Eco, *Foucault's Pendulum*, for some very interesting insights
into the hidden (occult) nature of subways, sewers, tunnels, and the like...

-Original Message-
From:   Ric Carter [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent:   Wednesday, December 08, 1999 8:00 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject:[CTRL] Skeptic News - Wednesday #1 - y2k
minus 24

: What's your favorite underworld experience? Did you ever
go to the gates
of Hell and back, and all you got was a lousy t-shirt? Do
you descend into
the underworld everytime you ride a subway? Are subways
Hellish? All of'em?

DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

Archives Available at:
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Om

Re: [CTRL] People in America early

[Tatman, Robert]

 -Caveat Lector-

Most of the hard scientific evidence for "non-Indian" or "non-Native
American" origins has been discovered quite recently. Yes, there are many
anomalous sites throughout North America, but there is also an amazing mass
of pure nonsense put out over the past two centuries by people seemingly
determined to prove that the "Indians" were not the true possessors of the
Americas before the European conquests. Even borderline researchers such as
Barry Fell, for all their good intentions, often wind up using arguments
which originated with white racists. Now, I do believe very strongly in
pre-Columbian intercultural contacts, especially in Mesoamerica (Aztec,
Maya, Toltec, Olmec)...but the efforts of a lot of so-called scholars, even
today (including many New Age types), to find European or Egyptian (or
Atlantean) roots for American high civilizations purely disgust me. That
line of reasoning does a huge disservice to the creative abilities of the
Native American peoples.

With that said, I am equally aghast at the political games being played with
finds such as the Kennewick Man, games played both by Washington and by the
Indian tribes themselves. The "folk memories" many Indians and other
aboriginal peoples are so proud of, the meticulously chronicled lineages,
are in many cases either guesswork or fiction. In most cases, I suspect,
they have no more idea of where they came from than we (Anglo America) do.
Aboriginal cultures have changed as much over the millennia as have
"civilized" ones, and have suffered the same kinds of Dark Ages where
teachings and knowledge vanished and had to be recreated or reimagined. The
Pueblo and Hopi have no more idea of who the Hohokam ("Anasazi" is a Navaho
word and is considered an insult) were than do the archaeologists at Penn or
Arizona.

At this point, I'd be very interested to see Judith ABR's comments on this
whole controversy; she has been very helpful in past discussions on CTRL
involving Native American cultures. Judith, any thoughts?

-Original Message-
From:   Taylor, John (JH) [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent:   Wednesday, December 08, 1999 9:41 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject:[CTRL] People in America early

snip

DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

Archives Available at:
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Om

Re: [CTRL] Skeptic News - Wednesday #3 - y2k minus 24

[Tatman, Robert]

 -Caveat Lector-

Hey, when I came outside to start up my car the other day, the windows were
all frosted over, and before I got in to start the engine and turn on the
defroster I could SWEAR, up, down, and sideways that I saw the Goddess Eris
(Hail, She What Done It All!) peering out at me from inside the car...but
you know, when I got the car door open, it was just a smudge where the dog
had pressed his nose against the glass... Oh well. "Indeed do many things
come to pass." Fnord.

-Original Message-
From:   Ric Carter [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent:   Wednesday, December 08, 1999 10:11 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject:[CTRL] Skeptic News - Wednesday #3 - y2k
minus 24

# Virgin Mary In New Jersey? Devout Catholics flock to a
Jersey City super-
  market to catch a glimpse of what they believe to be a
manifestation of
  the Virgin Mary on a freezer door. She sure picks some
strange places:

http://www.xprojectmagazine.com/archives/paranormal/vmarynews.html

DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

Archives Available at:
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Om

Re: [CTRL] Skeptic News - Wednesday #3 - y2k minus 24

[Tatman, Robert]

 -Caveat Lector-

"God made mud. Lucky, lucky mud."
--Kurt Vonnegut, *Cat's Cradle*

-Original Message-
From:   Ric Carter [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent:   Wednesday, December 08, 1999 10:11 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject:[CTRL] Skeptic News - Wednesday #3 - y2k
minus 24

"God made pot. Man made beer. Who do you trust?" --anon

DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

Archives Available at:
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Om

Re: [CTRL] Fwd: Black Bloc and obsessive analysis

[Tatman, Robert]

 -Caveat Lector-

I never said that *all* of the anarchists were provocateurs. *Some* of them
were provocateurs. Most were just "useful idiots." But provocateurs *have*
provoked violence against property many times in the past, and if people got
injured or killed into the bargain, so much the better... I cannot say this
too many times: *violence only serves the Oligarchy's purposes.* Doubt this?
Then tell me who got NATO to come in and cover their asses in Kosovo, the
nonviolent activists led by Rugova who had created a parallel government
with their own institutions, or the drug-running disciples of the CIA and
BND? Uh-uh. The bosses understand violence. They love to manipulate it.
Nonviolence, OTOH, entails withdrawing consent from the PTB, creating a new
society, with new rules, right alongside the old order, and finally
supplanting the bosses and all they stand for. And violence can have no part
in creating such a society.

-Original Message-
From:   nessie [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent:   Wednesday, December 08, 1999 10:38 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject:[CTRL] Fwd: Black Bloc and obsessive analysis

 -Caveat Lector-

I didn't write this, but I would have if this person hadn't beaten
me to
it. This is the most cogent analysis of what happened in the streets
of
Seattle that's appeared on the net yet.

   -- nessie

**

C'mon, people!

Enough crap about the Black Bloc anarchists being provocateurs.

When did provocateurs advocate or practice property damage? Never.
Provocateurs lay it on much thicker than that.  They call for
violence
("off the pigs!") and other hysteria.
snip


DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

Archives Available at:
http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html

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Om

Re: [CTRL] Cloning the soul ?

[Tatman, Robert]

 -Caveat Lector-

There was a story written years ago which suggested that the reason for the
sudden proliferation of amoral, sociopathic behavior in this particular
near-future world was that too many humans had been born, with too few souls
available to inhabit those bodies... IIRC, the story also suggested that
there is an upper limit to the total amount of life on Earth, and that
therefore the more human beings are born, the more animal and plant species
must die out. Unfortunately, I cannot remember the title or author--I think
it was published in an Earth Day-related anthology in 1970, but I'm not
certain of that.

 -Original Message-
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
 Sent: Saturday, December 04, 1999 2:27 PM
 To:   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Subject:  Re: [CTRL] Cloning the soul ?

  -Caveat Lector-

 In a message dated 12/3/99 5:20:25 PM Eastern Standard Time,
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

  I just got this comment re cloning from another list and I thought it
 worthy
   of passing on ..Any comments then ?
 
   Peter
 
   "And when we clone a human, will it have a soul. If so, is this
 acceptable
   proof
   that the soul is a function of a brain as complex as ours.
   Can a clone go to heaven?"
 
   Brett
 
 There are several collateral questions that need to be considered before
 one
 can answer this one.  First, is there any such thing as a soul?  Is the
 soul
 a seperate component, an intangible aspect, of human beings?  Is there a
 heaven?  Theologians have incredibly complex theories about human life and
 philosophical positions on just about everything.  I've heard it said that
 upon the assumption of life (which itself is a matter of debate) the human
 embryo gains its soul, others claim different times.  Additionally are
 there
 a finite number of souls in existence?  Are new ones created as are
 needed?
 Are people reincarnated?  Too many philosophical conundrums to give a
 single
 simple answer to the question, at least IMO.



DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

Archives Available at:
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Om

Re: [CTRL] Secret history of anarchism (intro)

[Tatman, Robert]

 -Caveat Lector-

Years ago, doing disaster relief in the Finger Lakes region of New York
State following Tropical Storm Agnes, I realized that what we had right
after the storm, in the first day and a half or two days, was precisely
Kropotskian mutual aid. Ideologies, politics, theology, class
differences--everything went out the window, and everyone just plain pulled
together to salvage what the storm had left. After about two days,
selfishness and greed--call it "the capitalist ethic"--set in and the mutual
aid broke down, but until then it was a truly amazing experience. I also saw
mutual aid working during the MayDay actions in D.C. in the spring of 1971;
had things gone just slightly differently, had there been less infighting
within the Movement, had we been able to mobilize union support, we could
really have seized control of the city and created a true "Washington
Commune." More on this later...

 -Original Message-
 From: nessie [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
 Sent: Saturday, December 04, 1999 11:48 PM
 To:   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Subject:  [CTRL] Secret history of  anarchism (intro)

  -Caveat Lector-

 I've been asked what I recommend for the first time reader of anarchism?
snip

 Mutual aid is our most central core value, which makes us really good to
 have for friends and really bad to have for enemies. We're also the flat
 out, hands down, no competition, very best networkers on earth. Any
 anarchist who puts any effort into it can find comrades in the most
 obscure corners of the world. Even a cursory perusal of our thriving 'zine
 scene will give anybody who wants them enough pen pals to give Godzilla
 carpal tunnel syndrome.

snip

DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

Archives Available at:
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Re: [CTRL] Skeptic News - Monday #1 - y2k minus 26

[Tatman, Robert]

 -Caveat Lector-

I once heard of an Irish monk who observed, with some bemusement, that Jesus
Christ was born before the birth of Jesus Christ...

 -Original Message-
 From: Ric Carter [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
 Sent: Monday, December 06, 1999 2:32 PM
 To:   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Subject:  [CTRL] Skeptic News - Monday #1 - y2k minus 26

: Have you died  been resurrected lately? Since Yeshua was born
some years
before 1/1/, didn't the millennium already happen? Did you
notice? How?

DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

Archives Available at:
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Om

Re: [CTRL] COINTELPRO in Seattle

[Tatman, Robert]

 -Caveat Lector-

I suspect that several things were happening at the same time in Seattle,
and they were not being orchestrated by the same people. One faction--the
ADM/Pepsi/etc. group--was working to discredit opposition to "free trade" by
bankrolling violence by the fake "anarchists." What *Clinton* was doing was
trying to coopt the nonviolent groups by adopting their agenda (or seeming
to adopt their agenda). Sure, violence scares the pols...but really big
nonviolent actions frighten them more--remember the MayDay actions in 1971.
The pols know that the media will pick up on "demonstrators" throwing rocks,
Molotov cocktails, etc., at the police, MPs, what have you, which makes for
*much better* press (for the pols) than does pictures of cops, MPs, etc.,
beating up on unarmed, nonviolent demonstrators.

 -Original Message-
 From: Nurev Ind Research [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
 Sent: Monday, December 06, 1999 6:29 PM
 To:   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Subject:  Re: [CTRL] COINTELPRO in Seattle

  -Caveat Lector-

 "Tatman, Robert" wrote:
 
   -Caveat Lector-
 
  I didn't say police violence was legitimate. What I am trying to do is
  identify WHY the "anarchists" were ignored by the cops on Tuesday, while
 the
  nonviolent demonstrators were targeted. As a matter of principle, I do
 not
  believe that ANY violence is legitimate. With all due respect to my
 Jesuit
  professors, I don't accept the principle of double effect: it is NEVER
  appropriate to use violence to stop violence. If activists use violence
  themselves, they are simply adopting the methods of the Oligarchy, and
 by
  doing that they have allowed themselves to be coopted. QED: if not, why
 do
  agents provocateurs always try to get their targets to engage in violent
  actions? We DARE not use the enemy's weapons to fight the enemy...if we
 do
  that, we might as well just give up and enlist in the enemy's army.
 
   -Original Message-
   From: nessie [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
   Sent: Thursday, December 02, 1999 3:00 PM
   To:   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
   Subject:  Re: [CTRL] COINTELPRO in Seattle
  
-Caveat Lector-
  
   the legitimate nonviolent anti-WTO movement,
  
  
   What makes the nonviolent anti-WTO movement "legitimate" and the
 violent
   movement not?   Was the Boston Tea Party not violent? Did that make it
 a
   bad thing?  More to the point, what makes police violence legitimate
 and
   citizen violence not legitimate?

 If I may join the conversation.

 I too prefer non violence. But the reality of our world is such that it is
 violence which scares the politicians. Not because they can't overcome it,
 but
 because it demonstrates how far people are willing to go to oppose their
 rule.

 Have you ever wondered why there is a Martin L. King holiday but not a
 Malcolm
 X holiday? It was the threat of violent Black insurrection which
 frightened
 the establishment into making Jim Crow illegal. Power is not afraid of
 peaceful demonstrations. They even prefer it because it lets people let
 off
 steam and feel that they are accomplishing something when they are not.
 This
 is why Clinton praised the " peaceful " protesters, and admonished the
 violent
 " anarchists."

 Joshua2



DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

Archives Available at:
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Om

Re: [CTRL] Towards Ultimate CONTROL

[Tatman, Robert]

 -Caveat Lector-

snort Yup, the spellchecker don't catch that kind of mistake... I guess
them Lawrence Liverpool Labs must be out at that Area 52...

 -Original Message-
 From: nessie [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
 Sent: Monday, December 06, 1999 10:03 PM
 To:   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Subject:  Re: [CTRL] Towards Ultimate CONTROL

  -Caveat Lector-

 To help promote the U.N. global dictatorship, Soviet KGB scientist have
 recently been working at various U.S. advanced weapons facilities, such as
 Lawrence Liverpool and Los Alamos Laboratories.

 "Liverpool"!?!



DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

Archives Available at:
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Om

Re: [CTRL] COINTELPRO in Seattle

[Tatman, Robert]

 -Caveat Lector-

And how many of those 3,000 bombings were done or instigated by agents
provocateurs? It is MUCH easier for the Establishment to turn violent
protest to its own purposes than for them to coopt a nonviolent movement.
The Oligarchy has too many, and too powerful, weapons for anyone to be able
to use violence against them. Do YOU want to try lobbing a Molotov cocktail
at an M-1 tank? How many anti-tank grenades do you have handy? Far better to
combine mass street demonstrations with covert information warfare, to
scramble the information the tank commander needs to know where to fire and
put so many people in his path that he doesn't dare move forward...

 -Original Message-
 From: nessie [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
 Sent: Tuesday, December 07, 1999 5:27 PM
 To:   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Subject:  Re: [CTRL] COINTELPRO in Seattle

  -Caveat Lector-

 but really big nonviolent actions frighten them more--remember the MayDay
 actions in 1971.

 There were over three thousand bombings in 1971. That's what scared them.

 This fact was uncovered by Ramparts magazine who had to go to Canada to
 get that issue printed after the feds leaned on their regular printer.

 If we're going to be remembering May Days we oughta be remembering the
 only two that really count. One was the original in 1888, a key step in
 the anarchist led campaign for the eight hour work day. The other was in
 Paris in 1968.

 DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
 ==
 CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting
 propagandic
 screeds are not allowed. Substance-not soapboxing!  These are sordid
 matters
 and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and
 outright
 frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor
 effects
 spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
 gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to
 readers;
 be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
 nazi's need not apply.

 Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.
 
 Archives Available at:
 http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html

 http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/
 
 To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email:
 SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED]

 To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email:
 SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED]

 Om

DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

Archives Available at:
http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html

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Om

Re: [CTRL] Seattle: ADM hires shills?

[Tatman, Robert]

 -Caveat Lector-

This report of ADM, Pepsi, and other multinationals hiring "demonstrators"
to act out for the news cameras in Seattle bears out what I have been saying
all along: the Oligarchy is determined to discredit the progressive
coalition by any means necessary. Forget COINTELPRO--the corporations are
now bypassing the "official" law enforcement agencies and are hiring their
agents provocateurs directly. Welcome to the 21st Century.

 -Original Message-
 From: Kevin [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
 Sent: Thursday, December 02, 1999 8:17 PM
 To:   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Subject:  [CTRL] Seattle: ADM hires shills?

 I got this off one of the boards.
snip
 Several weeks ago I was approached by the representative of a
 major company. I was offered a lucrative, temporary job as a
 demonstrator as part of a 'media event' that the company rep
 said she was involved in planning. I was offered $35 an hour,
 plus bonuses and meals, for a job that would last a week or so.
 Being a rather poor college student, I jumped at the offer. I
 was assured it was all legal. I signed a strict non-disclosure
 agreement. And I was given a few days paid training.

 All of this was before I had heard about the upcoming World
 Trade Organization meeting. In fact, I didn't really know what
 the WTO was.

 In the past few days I have carried protest signs and chanted
 slogans for various causes - whales, farmers, human rights,
 rainforests; I have blocked traffic, been shoved, kicked,
 tear-gassed, arrested (bail promptly paid), worn a panda bear
 costume, and been on tv; I've been well-fed on steaks and shrimp
 and pizza; had a hell of a lot of fun; made some good cash money
 and recieved some merchandise bonuses like vitamins and Pepsi
 stuff; - and become totally disillusioned with our political
 system.

 The company that hired me is Archer Daniels Midland, but Pepsi
 was somehow involved, too (and no doubt some others).

 The demonstrations this past week in Seattle are contrived and
 manufactured. I'm sure that many of the people out there are
 sincerely trying to further their cause, but many more are just
 nuts getting caught up in the moment, and some are paid agitators
 (like me and about another 100 or so that I know of). I'm not out
 there anymore, though, I took my cash last night and left, went
 back to school.

snip

DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

Archives Available at:
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Re: [CTRL] Skeptic News - Friday #1 - 12/03/99

[Tatman, Robert]

 -Caveat Lector-

Because violence can easily be manipulated to suit the Oligarchy's
objectives; nonviolence, because it is based on mutual support and consent,
is much more difficult to coopt. The bosses understand violence, because
it's the basis on which they operate; but mutual support and consent are
totally alien concepts to them, and therefore they don't know how to deal
with nonviolent resistance when they encounter it. Nonviolence, in short,
scares the shit out of the bosses.

 -Original Message-
 From: Ric Carter [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
 Sent: Friday, December 03, 1999 10:03 AM
 To:   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Subject:  [CTRL] Skeptic News - Friday #1 - 12/03/99
snip
: Can nonviolent resistance be safely ignored by power structures?
Why not?
snip

DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

Archives Available at:
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Om

[CTRL] BBC: New Zealand approves GM cows

[Tatman, Robert]

 -Caveat Lector-

http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/sci/tech/newsid_538000/538000.stm

New Zealand approves GM cows

Scientists in New Zealand have been given the go-ahead to raise two herds of
genetically-modified cows - but they cannot introduce any human genes into
the animals.

Instead, the cows' own genetic material will be altered to change the
content of their milk. Some of the cows will produce milk rich in casein,
the main protein component of milk which can be made into a wide range of
food and industrial products.

Other cattle will produce milk with lowered levels of beta lactoglobulin,
which causes allergies in some people.

Ag Research, which will rear the animals at its Ruakura campus near
Hamilton, had put forward a proposal for engineered cattle that would
express a human protein in their milk which could be used to develop a new
treatment for multiple sclerosis.

But the country's Environmental Risk Management Authority (ERMA) has
deferred a decision on the request after receiving complaints from those
such as the local Maori who have cultural objections. ERMA wants to take a
closer look at the issues involved in introducing synthetic human genes into
cattle.

Strict controls

The authority has also laid down strict controls for the experiments it has
approved.

"The cattle will be kept in close containment and all the
genetically-modified material, and the milk and waste products, will be kept
on site or destroyed," said ERMA New Zealand Chief Executive, Dr Bas Walker.
"This is a field test for a limited period of time, under strict conditions,
so there is a negligible risk to the environment or public health."

The authority said the genetic modifications would involve 'knocking out'
some cow genes and the 'doubling up' of others.

It will be several years before any commercial products are available.

ERMA has already given approval to the developers of Dolly the cloned sheep,
PPL Therapeutics, to breed a flock of sheep in New Zealand that incorporate
a human gene that will hopefully lead to a drug capable of treating the lung
tissue disease cystic fibrosis.


===
Robert F. Tatman
Computer Help Desk
Desktop  LAN Services
Systems Department
Philadelphia Newspapers, Inc.
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
215.854.2729
215.854.2788
The contents of this message represent the opinion only of the writer, and
may not be construed to indicate the endorsement of Knight-Ridder, Inc.;
Philadelphia Newspapers, Inc.; The Philadelphia Inquirer; or the
Philadelphia Daily News.
"Artificial intelligence is no match for natural stupidity."

DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

Archives Available at:
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[CTRL] Human evolution slowed down by central heating

[Tatman, Robert]

 -Caveat Lector-

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/et?ac=000343180237640rtmo=glbYnjkuatmo=
pg=/et/99/12/2/ecnevo02.html
Human evolution slowed down by central heating

By Roger Highfield

HUMAN beings are in the slow lane of evolution, according to a study that
suggests that changes to our species will be more to do with culture than
biology.

In the natural world, evolution is driven when the environment alters, for
example as a result of climate change. While insects, plants and animals
have to adapt to global warming, humans turn down the central heating, wear
less clothing and use more air conditioning.

The slow down in human evolution has long been suspected and evidence is
published today in Nature in a study that compares the genetic code of mice,
humans and chickens. Surprisingly, people may have more in common with
chickens than with mice.

The mouse genetic code "has evolved faster and man evolves the slowest",
said Dr David Burt of the Roslin Institute, Edinburgh. Humans adapt to new
conditions "by using our brains and creating solutions with our hands. We
are less vulnerable to environmental changes", he said.

With colleagues, he has been mapping the genome - the large-scale
organisation of genes - in the domestic chicken, and comparing their gene
maps with what is known for mice and humans.

The study focuses on genes shared by many organisms and shows that the
chicken and human gene maps share more features of their organisation - in
terms of the relative placement of genes - than either does with the mouse
gene map.

"Birds and mammals arose from a common ancestor over 300 million years ago,"
said Dr Burt. "So we had expected many more genetic re-arrangements over
this much longer time scale than found between two mammals, such as human
and mouse."

But the study showed 100 large blocks of the genetic code were similar in a
comparison of the birds and humans, while 200 smaller blocks were similar in
a comparison of humans and mice.

It seems that the rodent genetic code has evolved much faster, particularly
over the past few tens of millions of years, than that in the lineages
leading to either humans or chickens. "Evolution has occurred at least 10
times faster during the evolution of mice, than in chicken or man," he said.


===
Robert F. Tatman
Computer Help Desk
Desktop  LAN Services
Systems Department
Philadelphia Newspapers, Inc.
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
215.854.2729
215.854.2788
The contents of this message represent the opinion only of the writer, and
may not be construed to indicate the endorsement of Knight-Ridder, Inc.;
Philadelphia Newspapers, Inc.; The Philadelphia Inquirer; or the
Philadelphia Daily News.
"Artificial intelligence is no match for natural stupidity."

DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

Archives Available at:
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[CTRL] Complete Genome Of West Nile Virus Identified: Middle East Origin Suggested

[Tatman, Robert]

 -Caveat Lector-

"Using reverse-transcription PCR (polymerase chain reaction), the scientists
identify the virus as a West Nile virus (WNV) virtually identical to a West
Nile virus that was found in an outbreak in Israel in 1998. It is also very
similar to a virus found in Egypt, they report. ... These similarities
suggest a Middle Eastern origin for the New York outbreak."
==

http://unisci.com/stories/19994/1203994.htm

Complete Genome Of West Nile Virus Identified

Dr. Ian Lipkin of the University of California at Irvine and his colleagues
have identified 100 percent of the genome of the West Nile virus that caused
the encephalitis outbreak in New York in August of this year.

The report appears in this week's Lancet.

This study marks the first time any scientist has cloned a viral genome in
the human brain, using a technique which may help identify causes of
encephalitis in other outbreaks.

Using reverse-transcription PCR (polymerase chain reaction), the scientists
identify the virus as a West Nile virus (WNV) virtually identical to a West
Nile virus that was found in an outbreak in Israel in 1998. It is also very
similar to a virus found in Egypt, they report.

These similarities suggest a Middle Eastern origin for the New York
outbreak.

The West Nile virus is among the Flaviviridae, which also include human
pathogens such as yellow fever, dengue, Japanese encephalitis and St. Louis
encephalitis. Normally, WNV infections are mild, but they can result in
encephalitis and in death.

WNV is transmitted by mosquitoes, but birds can carry it. The virus is now
known to have been responsible for bird deaths in New York, New Jersey and
Connecticut. The Lancet article notes that WNV infection was not recognized
in the Americas until August of this year, although there were reports of
WNV epidemics in Israel, France, South Africa and Romania.
Noting the existence of two international airports in the New York City area
where WNV was prevalent, the article suggests that potential routes for
introduction of the virus into the Eastern United States include importation
of infected birds, mosquitoes and viremic human beings.

Co-authors include Lipkin, Xi-Yu Jie, Thomas Brieze, Ingo Jordan, Andrew
Rambadt, Hen Chang Chi, John S. Mackenzie, Roy A. Hall and Jacqui Scharret.


[Contact: Andrew M. Porterfield mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]

03-Dec-1999


===
Robert F. Tatman
Computer Help Desk
Desktop  LAN Services
Systems Department
Philadelphia Newspapers, Inc.
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
215.854.2729
215.854.2788
The contents of this message represent the opinion only of the writer, and
may not be construed to indicate the endorsement of Knight-Ridder, Inc.;
Philadelphia Newspapers, Inc.; The Philadelphia Inquirer; or the
Philadelphia Daily News.
"Artificial intelligence is no match for natural stupidity."

DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

Archives Available at:
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[CTRL] Delay in identifying virus raises security questions

[Tatman, Robert]

 -Caveat Lector-

http://www.nandotimes.com/noframes/story/0,2107,500064078-500106042-50047933
7-0,00.html

Delay in identifying virus raises security questions

Copyright © 1999 Nando Media

Copyright © 1999 Scripps Howard News Service

By LANCE GAY

WASHINGTON (December 3, 1999 12:06 a.m. EST) - Prompted by delays in
identifying an obscure Middle East virus that appeared in New York City this
year, a debate has been touched off in Washington over how secure and
effective are America's defenses against terrorists using biological weapons
or exotic diseases.

It took federal authorities almost three months to identify the West Nile
virus, which first was reported when dead crows were found on New York City
streets in June.

On Sept. 3, the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention  misdiagnosed the
outbreak as being caused by St. Louis encephalitis. It retracted that
diagnosis three weeks later, saying the outbreak was caused by the West Nile
virus.

Though the federal government has spent millions of dollars developing
defenses to detect such viruses, experts say the West Nile virus incident
shows that the United States is vulnerable to terrorist use of biological
weapons.

"West Nile fever was a wake-up call for us," said Alan Zelicoff, a physician
and senior scientist at the Federal Center for National Security and Arms
Control at Sandia National Laboratories in Albuquerque, N.M.

He said it is unacceptable that it takes several weeks for federal
authorities to become aware of the appearance of a new pathogen. Unless
steps are taken to improve the reporting and identifying of outbreaks,
Zelicoff said more virulent viruses could be introduced into the United
States and will spread before federal authorities know what is happening.

If the relatively benign West Nile virus had been a more serious virus like
smallpox, it would have "dispersed and spread across the country to hundreds
of thousands of people before it was detected," Zelicoff said.

In New York, 56 cases of the West Nile virus were diagnosed and seven deaths
were reported. The virus also was found in Connecticut and New Jersey.

David Siegrist, a senior analyst with the Potomac Institute for Policy
Studies, an Arlington, Va., think tank that studies threats posed by
biological weapons, agreed that the difficulties in detecting the West Nile
virus show the need for a serious look at the adequacy of America's defenses
against biological weapons.

He said Congress must enlist the assistance of physicians in reporting
mysterious outbreaks of illnesses, and develop more laboratories for quicker
testing and identification of mysterious pathogens.

"We have to have more rapid identification when this happens," Siegrist
said.

In October, the Senate Armed Services Committee opened an investigation of
the West Niles virus incident. Congress last month allocated $36 million to
the Centers for Disease Control to conduct a study of what happened and to
make recommendations for better identifications of unusual infectious
agents. The Agriculture Department also is seeking to increase research into
deadly pathogens.

Sen. Pat Roberts, R-Kan., wants the early warning system expanded for quick
identification of agricultural pathogens, noting that terrorists seeking to
cripple America could attack with plant or animal diseases to create a
famine, or devastate U.S. agriculture.

John Wafeld, president of Kansas State University, told the Senate Armed
Services Committee that the West Nile virus incident exposed the weakness of
U.S. defenses against pathogens that could be introduced deliberately, or
naturally.

"It's a fireball in the night, because it suggests a warning to the American
people and our national security interests that these kinds of pathogens can
enter America even when we don't want them to," he said.

But Barbara Rosenberg, who heads the biological weapons programs for the
Federation of American Scientists, said the government response to dealing
with the West Nile virus shouldn't be used as a reason to launch expensive
new biological weapons programs.

"It's impossible to prepare for every possible pathogen in the world," she
said.

Rosenberg scoffed at the possibility that terrorists would use biological
weapons. "You get a lot more bang for your buck with bombs than biological
weapons," she said.

She did agree that the United States has to do more to alert physicians to
look out for unusual illnesses. "But that doesn't require millions of
dollars, it just requires a memo," she said.

Dr. Steve Ostroff, the CDC's associate director, said he also believes it's
unlikely that terrorists would use viruses. "It's not that easy to do," he
said. "I would play down a gaping hole in our defenses."

But Ostroff added the West Nile virus incident does show the need to upgrade
the capabilities of local laboratories to detect exotic pathogens.

Ostroff said it is not known whether the West Nile virus got to the United
States in the bloodstream of an 

[CTRL] Predicting the flu of the future

[Tatman, Robert]

 -Caveat Lector-

"School boards and science educators need to understand this simple fact: if
students don't learn about evolution, they can't possibly understand modern
biology or medicine."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/sci/tech/newsid_547000/547318.stm
Thursday, 2 December, 1999, 19:21 GMT

Predicting the flu of the future


Evolution experts have come up with a way of successfully predicting which
strain of influenza will strike the next year.

This will enable bodies such as the World Health Organisation to stock up on
suitable vaccines and reduce the global impact of any epidemics.

The new approach came from constructing and examining a decade-long family
tree of the influenza A viruses.

Testing the approach using past data, the scientists correctly predicted the
dominant strain of flu in nine years out of 11. The chances of doing this by
random guessing are tiny, just one in two billion.

"Scientists haven't known how to predict which strain of influenza virus is
going to be the progenitor of the strains that will cause future epidemics,"
said Walter Fitch, at the University of California Irvine, who lead the
research team. "This is the first time that an evolutionary study has been
used to identify which strains are the fittest."

A periodic table of biology

David Hillis, at the University of Texas, commenting on the research
published in the journal Science, said: "Just as the periodic table of
elements allows chemists to make predictions about reactions, so a [family
tree] allows biologists to make predictions about behaviour or any other
biological attribute."

He added: "The team show that analysis of the evolution of human influenza
virus A can be used to make predictions about the evolutionary course of
future strains."

Influenza viruses come in three types - A, B and C. Influenza C has very
little public health impact, but influenza A and B viruses cause the annual
epidemics of influenza seen in many parts of the world. The research team is
now extending its work to include all three groups of circulating influenza
viruses.

Spindly tree

The new method of prediction works because of the flu virus's unusual family
tree. While most organisms evolve through time to create a tree with many
forked branches, the flu virus tree shows that in each generation just one
main strain survives. This leaves the tree looking more like a stepped
staircase.

This unusual pattern of lineage occurs because, to be successful, the flu
viruses have to evade the human immune system which will attack and destroy
anything it recognises as foreign.

The viruses disguise themselves using spikes on their surface made of a
protein called hemagglutinin. But once the body has seen a particular spike,
it will remember it and attack it if the virus infects the body again.

Therefore, those viruses which most successfully mutate the hemagglutinin
spike will do best the next year. Those which do not will die out.

Change or perish

Professor Bush and his team identified 18 key regions of the hemagglutinin
gene. The viruses with the most changes in these areas were the most likely
to be the start of a dynasty. So by focusing on these areas, predictions can
be made.

Professor Hillis believes the success of this work, in using an evolutionary
approach to tackle future health problems, holds a lesson for those in the
US who have imposed bans on the teaching of evolution in schools.

"School boards and science educators need to understand this simple fact: if
students don't learn about evolution, they can't possibly understand modern
biology or medicine."

===
Robert F. Tatman
Computer Help Desk
Desktop  LAN Services
Systems Department
Philadelphia Newspapers, Inc.
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
215.854.2729
215.854.2788
The contents of this message represent the opinion only of the writer, and
may not be construed to indicate the endorsement of Knight-Ridder, Inc.;
Philadelphia Newspapers, Inc.; The Philadelphia Inquirer; or the
Philadelphia Daily News.
"Artificial intelligence is no match for natural stupidity."

DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

Archives Available at:
http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html

http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/

Re: [CTRL] COINTELPRO in Seattle

[Tatman, Robert]

 -Caveat Lector-

I am convinced that at least some of the black-clad "anarchists" in Seattle
are agents provocateurs. However, just whom they work for is another
question altogether. Their assignment is clearly to discredit the legitimate
nonviolent anti-WTO movement, which is one of the most broadly-based
movements in U.S. history. Their "sponsors" could be any of several U.S.
government agencies--FBI, CIA, military intelligence (remember the fake
"civilian demonstrators" from the Urban Warrior exercises? Was this what
*they* were practicing for?); they could also be working for one or more
multinational corporations, or for assorted foreign governments. Or perhaps
the answer is "All of the above."

Also, as a longtime student of nonviolent anarchism, I am extremely annoyed
at the use of these punks to smear the honorable name "anarchist." The big
parade on Tuesday included the IWW, and the Wobblies are *true* anarchists.
It's a fool's errand to try to make the news media see the difference
between real anarchists like the Wobblies and those nihilists in Nike
sneakers who trashed Niketown, but at least we in the movement owe it to
ourselves and our sisters and brothers to be aware of the distinction. True
anarchism scares the shit out of the Oligarchy; unthinking nihilism only
serves the Oligarchy's purposes.

 -Original Message-
 From: Dave [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
 Sent: Thursday, December 02, 1999 7:39 AM
 To:   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Subject:  [CTRL] COINTELPRO in Seattle

  -Caveat Lector-

 Read this.
 See if anyone can get hold of  CBS (KIRO) affiliate reporter named Meagan
 Black, and or copy of the broadcast.
 Most of us are aware that FBI COINTELPRO is famous for undermining
 activists
 with agents provocateur.  (or land-mining them, like Judi Bari)
 This CBS broadcast is evidence.

 Dave Hartley
 http://www.Asheville-Computer.com/dave



DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

Archives Available at:
http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html

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Om

Re: [CTRL] COINTELPRO in Seattle

[Tatman, Robert]

 -Caveat Lector-

I didn't say police violence was legitimate. What I am trying to do is
identify WHY the "anarchists" were ignored by the cops on Tuesday, while the
nonviolent demonstrators were targeted. As a matter of principle, I do not
believe that ANY violence is legitimate. With all due respect to my Jesuit
professors, I don't accept the principle of double effect: it is NEVER
appropriate to use violence to stop violence. If activists use violence
themselves, they are simply adopting the methods of the Oligarchy, and by
doing that they have allowed themselves to be coopted. QED: if not, why do
agents provocateurs always try to get their targets to engage in violent
actions? We DARE not use the enemy's weapons to fight the enemy...if we do
that, we might as well just give up and enlist in the enemy's army.

 -Original Message-
 From: nessie [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
 Sent: Thursday, December 02, 1999 3:00 PM
 To:   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Subject:  Re: [CTRL] COINTELPRO in Seattle

  -Caveat Lector-

 the legitimate nonviolent anti-WTO movement,


 What makes the nonviolent anti-WTO movement "legitimate" and the violent
 movement not?   Was the Boston Tea Party not violent? Did that make it a
 bad thing?  More to the point, what makes police violence legitimate and
 citizen violence not legitimate?

 DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
 ==
 CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting
 propagandic
 screeds are not allowed. Substance-not soapboxing!  These are sordid
 matters
 and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and
 outright
 frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor
 effects
 spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
 gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to
 readers;
 be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
 nazi's need not apply.

 Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.
 
 Archives Available at:
 http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html

 http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/
 
 To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email:
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 To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email:
 SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED]

 Om

DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

Archives Available at:
http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html

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Om

[CTRL] FW: New Belief System / GF 113099

[Tatman, Robert]

 -Caveat Lector-

FWIW.

 -Original Message-
 From: Red Anahuak Networks [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
 Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 1999 9:00 PM
 To:   AAANAHUAK
 Cc:   AAPAOPAG; AAGAYSPIRIT; AAHNS; AAGMN; AAELM; AAACTIVIST; AAANDROIA
 Subject:  New Belief System / GF 113099

 Activist Mailing List - http://get.to/activist

 LUXWEB ANAHUAKlists
 www.onelist.com/community/anahuak
 www.onelist.com/community/anahuakweekly
 Free New Info Selection Services

 TODAY:

 Update by Sheldan Nidle for the Spiritual Hierarchy and the Galactic
 Federation
 November 30, 1999 (5 Ix. 7 Yaxk'in, 8 Manik)

 Greetings! We welcome you, and with joy and in glee provide you with our
 message! Eons ago, dear Ones, your beloved Mother Earth and its many
 sentient
 caretakers were given the sacred task of guiding physical Creation to the
 next
 appointed stage in its development. The time for this task has now
 commenced
 formally. The many celestial events that are currently taking place around
 you
 in deep space are only a portent that your very magnificent planet and its
 numerous sentient dwellers are being readied for their prophesied
 assignments.
 These tasks imply conclusively that shortly, you shall possess fully
 integrated
 bodies and shall have become fully conscious Beings. We in Heaven have
 come to
 your shores to complete these sacred tasks. Once here, we have showered
 you with
 the sacred energies of A-E-O-N. We have followed the commands of Lord
 Siraya and
 permitted myriads of the divine Orders of Heaven to surround you with
 their Love
 and to fill you with their Blessings. This activity has rapidly
 transformed the
 matrix that orders your current reality.

   Your reality is destined to become a most miraculous place. Its
 inhabitants are presently feeling the nature of these changes. Your
 planetary
 entity, Mother Earth, sings daily of the wondrous events that are soon to
 occur.
 In addition, the main liaison team of the Galactic Federation's first
 contact
 mission has begun what are to be a most momentous series of negotiations
 with
 your worldly cabals and their governmental counterparts. Dear Ones of the
 Light,
 we shall not rest until these tasks are concluded successfully. These
 talks
 involve many things. Mostly, they involve the use of certain agreements
 that can
 bring your assigned tasks swiftly to the forefront. Keep in mind that your
 primary task is to function as the co-creators of a new reality. In
 achieving
 it, you are integrating an amazing number of realities into your own. You
 are to
 be a truly grand lynchpin for uniting this third dimension in ways that it
 has
 not known before. Moreover, you are to be the bridge that brings the
 energies
 and the profundity of the fourth, fifth and sixth dimensions to this
 reality.

   It is important that you begin to envision yourselves as a bridge
 between
 numerous realities and dimensions. This position is one for which your new
 reality has been designed. You have incarnated into this reality to alter
 it
 into what it is destined to become. You have also taken on the
 responsibility of
 acting as the hub for the next series of events that shall unfold this
 aspect of
 Creation. This process is one that we have briefly hinted at in some of
 our more
 recent messages. We would like now to examine this matter in some detail.
 However, you should know first that the intricate details of this process
 have
 already been put into the matrix that is currently creating your new
 reality.
 This new reality is inevitable. It is a part of your future. Nonetheless,
 there
 are still some aspects that you will need to manifest in the very near
 future.
 One of these is the creation of some unique societal structures, along
 with a
 new global belief system that empowers you and does not limit your
 abilities.
 This procedure is one that you are rapidly moving toward. You are starting
 to
 see how powerful you really are.

   This inner power stems from your True Self. This is the divine 'I
 Am'
 presence that is truly you. It is this great Spirit entity that willingly
 forms
 the many Orders, Councils and Administrations that divinely carry out the
 sacred
 decrees and commands of the divine plan. When you were plunged into
 limited
 consciousness, an etheric screen was forged that divided you from your
 inner
 essence. You were forced by the very nature of this reality to look
 outward and
 see your life as a temporary span of physical existence that usually
 lasted for
 many decades. The spiritual realm was seen only as a guide, and as a final
 repository for your soul. Indeed, the ways of the spiritual were deeply
 manipulated by those in your reality who sought to control you. In the
 past,
 only the sacred missions of a number of specially appointed heavenly
 Way-showers
 have prevented you from being cast into eternal darkness. Their messages
 and
 their sacred lives have helped to keep the door pried open that leads 

[CTRL] Nigeria on verge of AIDS explosion

[Tatman, Robert]

 -Caveat Lector-

http://cnn.com/1999/WORLD/africa/12/01/bc.aids.nigeria.reut/index.html
Nigeria on verge of AIDS explosion, says study

December 1, 1999
Web posted at: 12:26 PM EST (1726 GMT)

LAGOS, Nigeria (Reuters) -- Nigeria is on the verge of an AIDS explosion
that could kill millions and wreak untold economic damage, a new report
warned on Thursday.

The study released to coincide with World AIDS day showed overall HIV
infection rates in Africa's most populous nation of 5.4 percent, climbing as
high as 21 percent in the worst affected areas.

"Having reached prevalence of over five percent Nigeria has entered the
stage where the epidemic is likely to increase at an exponential rate if
adequate national response is not mounted," the study said.

Like other West African countries, Nigeria has been less severely affected
by the epidemic than eastern and southern Africa.

But its population of more than 108 million means that it already has more
people infected with the HIV virus which leads to AIDS than many other
African countries.

"This is bound to have a major socio-economic impact on Nigerian society,
including reduced life expectancy, increased burden of medical care,
increase in the number of orphans and decline in economic growth," the
report said.

Researchers say any change in sexual behaviour as a result of fear of
infection has been limited, even following the 1997 death of popular and
extremely promiscuous Afrobeat musician Fela Anikulapo-Kuti from an AIDS
related illness.

Fighting HIV infection has not been the highest priority in a country where
diseases like malaria and diarrhoea kill much more quickly and health
structures are left dilapidated after the end this year of 15 years of
corrupt military rule.

President Olusegun Obasanjo has promised to make the fight against AIDS a
priority despite his other challenges of ending murderous ethnic conflicts
and reviving a moribund economy.

"President Obasanjo said that he was determined to personally lead the
national war against the scourge," a statement from the presidency said on
Wednesday, adding that a comprehensive programme would soon be put in place.

In some parts of Nigeria it is already too late to stop the explosion,
spread mostly by heterosexual intercourse.

The report showed that HIV infection rates had increased by as much as 700
percent in the worst hit regions since the last survey in 1995 and said 4.9
million Nigerians could be infected over the next five years.

United Nations projections released in August showed infection could reach
10 percent of the population by 2005.

Worst hit according to the report are Benue and Taraba states -- two key
agricultural areas -- in northern central Nigeria, southeastern Akwa Ibom
and Ebonyi States, and the big commercial centres of southwestern Lagos and
northern Kaduna.

Copyright 1999 Reuters. All rights reserved. This material may not be
published, broadcast, rewritten, or redistributed.



===
Robert F. Tatman
Computer Help Desk
Desktop  LAN Services
Systems Department
Philadelphia Newspapers, Inc.
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
215.854.2729
215.854.2788
The contents of this message represent the opinion only of the writer, and
may not be construed to indicate the endorsement of Knight-Ridder, Inc.;
Philadelphia Newspapers, Inc.; The Philadelphia Inquirer; or the
Philadelphia Daily News.
"Artificial intelligence is no match for natural stupidity."

DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

Archives Available at:
http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html

http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/

To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email:
SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED]

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SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Om