Re: [CTRL] Politically Correct Jesus
-Caveat Lector- "Tatman, Robert" wrote: > > -Caveat Lector- > > The human brain has receptors for an astounding number of substances and > phenomena, which science is just beginning to realize. There are receptors > for morphine, Prozac, nicotine, alcohol, for ecstasy, both physical and > aesthetic; there are receptors that are so multiply-redundant that the brain > looks like an engineer's kludge. The surprising thing is not that there is a > "God module" or "God receptor." It would be surprising if it were *not* > there and we were really only talking to the other side of our brains. Even with the *god module* who says that's not the case? The possible existence of *god receptors* in the brain only indicates that there was a long-standing biological need for the species to BELIEVE in a supernatural Big Daddy. It says nothing about whether or not such a being really exists. > What's surprising is that it took so long for science to accept something > that the rest of humanity has known for thousands of years. Science does not yet accept this hypothesis. It is not a fact. It is only speculation at this point. The rest of humanity hasn't known shit for thousands of years. Early humans lived in a fearful world of real and imagined dangers. A brain mechanism for the reduction of terror and stress was clearly warranted. Don't get carried away here. It took a long time for humans to break away from religious supernaturalism enough to establish the sciences, and even today, Kansans think that creationism is in the same ball park as evolution. This is due to the negative effects of a vestigial * god module.* > This does not > "prove" the truth of Christianity, Judaism, Islam, Buddhism, S*ientology, or > the Church of the SubGenius. On the contrary. It proves that they are absurd concoctions generated by a part of the brain that not only no longer serves a positive biological function, but has now become a hindrance to further evolution. Like the vestigial appendix. > What it *does* demonstrate is that the human > race is hardwired to look beyond itself, beyond the reality of the normal > senses, for answers to its questions about the meaning of existence. Oh really? Do you think that Neanderthals and early Homo Sapiens had that kind of sophistication as far back as 60,000 or 100,000 years ago? Not bloody likely. It is more likely that the early ones buried there dead ceremonially with trinkets because they simply did not want death to be final. JUST LIKE TODAY. > It also > suggests a hard, physiological reason for the parallels in religious > experience between traditions radically different in belief and practice. Not at all. It only suggests that all ( most ) people still need to invent a buffer to deal with the harsher aspects of life and death. > > > -Original Message- > > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > > Sent: Friday, December 24, 1999 3:12 AM > > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Subject: Re: [CTRL] Politically Correct Jesus > > > > -Caveat Lector- > > > > Kris Millegan wrote: > > > > > > Fairytales. > > > Om > > > k > > > >Brain researchers find 'God module' > >Los Angeles Times > >[re-post] > > > > NEW ORLEANS -- No one knows why humanity felt its first religious > > stirrings, but researchers at University of California, San Diego, > > reported > > Tuesday that the human brain may be hard-wired to hear the voice of > > heaven. > > > The last sentence here is VERY presumptuous. There is evidence for hardwiring but none for voices from heaven. Joshua2 DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Politically Correct Jesus
-Caveat Lector- The human brain has receptors for an astounding number of substances and phenomena, which science is just beginning to realize. There are receptors for morphine, Prozac, nicotine, alcohol, for ecstasy, both physical and aesthetic; there are receptors that are so multiply-redundant that the brain looks like an engineer's kludge. The surprising thing is not that there is a "God module" or "God receptor." It would be surprising if it were *not* there and we were really only talking to the other side of our brains. What's surprising is that it took so long for science to accept something that the rest of humanity has known for thousands of years. This does not "prove" the truth of Christianity, Judaism, Islam, Buddhism, S*ientology, or the Church of the SubGenius. What it *does* demonstrate is that the human race is hardwired to look beyond itself, beyond the reality of the normal senses, for answers to its questions about the meaning of existence. It also suggests a hard, physiological reason for the parallels in religious experience between traditions radically different in belief and practice. > -Original Message- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > Sent: Friday, December 24, 1999 3:12 AM > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subject: Re: [CTRL] Politically Correct Jesus > > -Caveat Lector- > > Kris Millegan wrote: > > > > Fairytales. > > Om > > k > >Brain researchers find 'God module' >Los Angeles Times >[re-post] > > NEW ORLEANS -- No one knows why humanity felt its first religious > stirrings, but researchers at University of California, San Diego, > reported > Tuesday that the human brain may be hard-wired to hear the voice of > heaven. > DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Politically Correct Jesus
-Caveat Lector- Kris Millegan wrote: > > Fairytales. > Om > k Brain researchers find 'God module' Los Angeles Times [re-post] NEW ORLEANS -- No one knows why humanity felt its first religious stirrings, but researchers at University of California, San Diego, reported Tuesday that the human brain may be hard-wired to hear the voice of heaven. In an experiment with patients suffering from an unusual form of epilepsy, researchers at the UC San Diego brain and perception laboratory determined that the parts of the brain's temporal lobe -- which the scientists dubbed the "God module" -- may affect how intensely a person responds to religious beliefs. The researchers said the experiment was the first effort to address the neural basis of religious expression. People suffering this type of seizure have reported intense mystical and religious experiences as part of their attacks but also are usually preoccupied with mystical thoughts between seizures. That led the researchers to use the patients as a way of investigating the relationship between the physical structure of the brain and spiritual experiences. The researchers determined that one effect of the patients' seizures was to strengthen their brain's involuntary response to religious words, which led the scientists to suggest a portion of the brain was attuned to ideas about a supreme being. "It is not clear why such dedicated neural machinery ... for religion may have evolved," the team reported Tuesday at a meeting of the Society for Neuroscience in New Orleans. One possibility, the scientists suggested, was to encourage tribe loyalty or reinforce kinship ties or the stability of a closely knit clan. The scientists emphasized that their findings in no way suggest that religion is simply a matter of brain chemistry. "These studies do not in any way negate the validity of religious experience or God," the team cautioned. "They merely provide an explanation in terms of brain regions that may be involved." Until recently, most neuroscientists confined their inquiries to research aimed at alleviating the medical problems that affect the brain's health and to attempts to fathom its fundamental neural mechanisms. Emboldened by their growing understanding of how the brain works, however, scientists now dare to investigate the relationship between the brain, human consciousness and intangible mental experiences. Craig Kinsely, an expert in psychology and neuroscience at the University of Richmond in Virginia, said: "People have been tickling around the edges of consciousness, and this sort of research plunges in. There is the quandary of whether the mind created God or God created the mind. This is going to shake people up, but (any conclusion) is very premature." Vilayanur Ramachandran, the senior scientist involved in the experiment and the director of the center for brain and cognition at UC San Diego, said, "We are skating on thin ice. We are only starting to look at this. The exciting thing is that you can even begin to contemplate scientific experiments on the neural basis of religion and God." DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Politically Correct Jesus
-Caveat Lector- "Religious science fiction," bordering on heresy if it wasn't in the Bible... ISTM that there are an awful lot of supposed "Christians" who spend more time contemplating the Devil or angels or saints or anything other than Jesus Christ. > -Original Message- > From: Kris Millegan [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > Sent: Sunday, December 19, 1999 1:07 PM > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subject: Re: [CTRL] Politically Correct Jesus > > -Caveat Lector- > > In a message dated 12/19/99 9:15:28 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > > >(Still LOL about satan under the little tiles... that's funny!) > >If it matters, Satan is alive and well and being held in heaven until > >Michael releases him for a very special purpose... which you can read > about > >by going to your Bible, 2 Thessalonians 2:1-12). (And contrary to > popular > >belief, satan has never seen the sights of any place called 'hell', as > >of > >yet. He has a more special place for his demise). > > > > Fairytales. > Om > k > > DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Politically Correct Jesus
-Caveat Lector- Robert, Thank you for that excellent minimized summary of the situation. You're right, who is counting? (In my book the two equate... on the bottom line, anyway. They still result in the same act.) Yes, God is not happy with the continued following of and worshipping of other gods. This action on the part of Hosea was also symbollic and type for the last days, when the habits of most show to have lost their sense of direction and who follow after strange gods, strange flesh, and other doctrinal "philosophies" that are directly contrary and replaced in the stead of the Covenant that God has made with Israel from generation to generation to the end of this earth age. eagle 1 - Original Message - From: "Tatman, Robert" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Tuesday, December 21, 1999 11:38 AM Subject: Re: [CTRL] Politically Correct Jesus > -Caveat Lector- > > Plus which, the entire marriage was a metaphor, symbolizing God's continuing > convenant with Israel despite the people's habit of whoring after false > gods. Hosea was typical of the Yahwist prophets in seeking to focus worship > solely on one supreme deity. While Eagle1's point is technically correct > (okay, it should have been fornication rather than adultery, but who's > counting?), Hosea presented himself as a type of Israel, so that when asked > "Why did you marry a whore?" he could say, "Because the people of Israel > have done exactly this by lusting after Asherah in her high places." > > > -Original Message- > > From: YnrChyldzWyld [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > > Sent: Saturday, December 18, 1999 8:49 AM > > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Subject: Re: [CTRL] Politically Correct Jesus > > > > -Caveat Lector- > > > > On Fri, 17 Dec 1999, Eagle 1 wrote: > > >There is a difference between "sin" and "disobedience". > > >The two are not equal; nor do they have the same connotations. > > >Example: God ordered Hosea to marry a whore - Hosea 1:2. He "obeyed" ... > > >but technically, he "sinned", because he became party to a "sin" of the > > >flesh, which was 'adultry'. > > > > Wrong. Adultery (try learning how to spell it correctly) according to > > the Bible, is sexual relations between a man and a woman who are both > > married to someone else. If only one partner is married, only that > > person is committing adultery. An unmarried person cannot commit > > adultery, neither is sexual intercourse between a man and a woman who are > > legally married to each other adultery. > > > > Hosea was legally married to the whore, therefore he could not be > > committing adultery when he had sexual relations with her. Neither was > > she an adulteress when having sexual relations with Hosea. And the fact > > that she was able to legally marry Hosea suggests that she was not > > married to another man, therefore even when she made a living as a whore, > > SHE did not commit adultery, even tho a client may have been married. It > > would have been her married clients who were adulterers... > > > > > > June ;-) DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Politically Correct Jesus
-Caveat Lector- Plus which, the entire marriage was a metaphor, symbolizing God's continuing convenant with Israel despite the people's habit of whoring after false gods. Hosea was typical of the Yahwist prophets in seeking to focus worship solely on one supreme deity. While Eagle1's point is technically correct (okay, it should have been fornication rather than adultery, but who's counting?), Hosea presented himself as a type of Israel, so that when asked "Why did you marry a whore?" he could say, "Because the people of Israel have done exactly this by lusting after Asherah in her high places." > -Original Message- > From: YnrChyldzWyld [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > Sent: Saturday, December 18, 1999 8:49 AM > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subject: Re: [CTRL] Politically Correct Jesus > > -Caveat Lector- > > On Fri, 17 Dec 1999, Eagle 1 wrote: > >There is a difference between "sin" and "disobedience". > >The two are not equal; nor do they have the same connotations. > >Example: God ordered Hosea to marry a whore - Hosea 1:2. He "obeyed" ... > >but technically, he "sinned", because he became party to a "sin" of the > >flesh, which was 'adultry'. > > Wrong. Adultery (try learning how to spell it correctly) according to > the Bible, is sexual relations between a man and a woman who are both > married to someone else. If only one partner is married, only that > person is committing adultery. An unmarried person cannot commit > adultery, neither is sexual intercourse between a man and a woman who are > legally married to each other adultery. > > Hosea was legally married to the whore, therefore he could not be > committing adultery when he had sexual relations with her. Neither was > she an adulteress when having sexual relations with Hosea. And the fact > that she was able to legally marry Hosea suggests that she was not > married to another man, therefore even when she made a living as a whore, > SHE did not commit adultery, even tho a client may have been married. It > would have been her married clients who were adulterers... > > > June ;-) > > |===SEASONS===GREETINGS==| > | \ /| > | *~o) )_ )_ )_ )_ - * - | > | |`--) , ,_),_),_),_/ / \| > | ``^^^`` /~\/~\/~\/~\| > || > | / / / | | > | \ / (((((( -+- | > | - * -.-#--..-#-..--#-. | | > | /|\/__\ /_\ /__\ /-\ | > |__//|\\| [] [] || [] [] || [] [] |___/---\___ldb__| > > artist -SheDragon (Laura) (ldb) > > *---* > revcoal AT connix DOT com > *---* > It is UNLAWFUL to send unsolicited commercial email to this email > address per United States Code Title 47 Sec. 227. I assess a fee of > $500.00 US currency for reading and deleting such unsolicited commercial > email. Sending such email to this address denotes acceptance of these > terms. My posting messages to Usenet neither grants consent to receive > unsolicited commercial email nor is intended to solicit commercial > email. > ** > > DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER > == > CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting > propagandic > screeds are not allowed. Substance-not soapboxing! These are sordid > matters > and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and > outright > frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor > effects > spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL > gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to > readers; > be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and > nazi's need not apply. > > Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. > > Archives Available at: > http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html > > http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ > > To subscribe to Conspiracy
Re: [CTRL] Politically Correct Jesus to Eagle
-Caveat Lector- I'm curious where it says in the Bible, that Michael releases satan who is confined in Heaven??? I know that II Thess. is about the coming apostasia--or falling away, but it has always been my understanding that satan is given rule of the world up until the end of the 7 yr. tribulation period...example would be when he tempted Jesus in the wilderness and offered him everything, which he could not have had it not been his to give..just wondering ks Eagle 1 wrote: > -Caveat Lector- > > ROTFL - June! > The word defined was not "subtile", it was "Serpent" from the Genesis 3 > account. And the definition can be found in the Strong's Exhaustive > Concordance of the Bible - version 1978. > > (Still LOL about satan under the little tiles... that's funny!) > If it matters, Satan is alive and well and being held in heaven until > Michael releases him for a very special purpose... which you can read about > by going to your Bible, 2 Thessalonians 2:1-12). (And contrary to popular > belief, satan has never seen the sights of any place called 'hell', as of > yet. He has a more special place for his demise). > > eagle 1 > > - Original Message - > From: "YnrChyldzWyld" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Sent: Sunday, December 19, 1999 8:15 AM > Subject: Re: [CTRL] Politically Correct Jesus > > > -Caveat Lector- > > > > On Sat, 18 Dec 1999, Eagle 1 wrote: > > >Well then, with all that said... > > >It stands to reason that the Biblical account of Lucifer's beauty should > > >also be considered. In Genesis he was called the "Serpent", the most > > >subtile of all the beasts... (this includes man). > > > > Can you tell me what dictionary you find the word 'subtile' in? And just > > what its definition is? > > > > Sounds to me that you are telling us that Satan is below the little > > squares of ceramic on our bathroom floors, as part of the subflooring? > > > > > > June > > DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER > == > CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic > screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters > and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright > frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects > spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL > gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; > be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and > nazi's need not apply. > > Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. > > Archives Available at: > http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html > > http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ > > To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: > SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: > SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Om DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Politically Correct Jesus
-Caveat Lector- Genesis 3:1 KJV. Subtil, not subtile. Archaic spelling of subtle. Tenorlove __ Do You Yahoo!? Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. All in one place. Yahoo! Shopping: http://shopping.yahoo.com DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Politically Correct Jesus
-Caveat Lector- In a message dated 12/19/99 9:15:28 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: >(Still LOL about satan under the little tiles... that's funny!) >If it matters, Satan is alive and well and being held in heaven until >Michael releases him for a very special purpose... which you can read about >by going to your Bible, 2 Thessalonians 2:1-12). (And contrary to popular >belief, satan has never seen the sights of any place called 'hell', as >of >yet. He has a more special place for his demise). > Fairytales. Om k DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Politically Correct Jesus
-Caveat Lector- ROTFL - June! The word defined was not "subtile", it was "Serpent" from the Genesis 3 account. And the definition can be found in the Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible - version 1978. (Still LOL about satan under the little tiles... that's funny!) If it matters, Satan is alive and well and being held in heaven until Michael releases him for a very special purpose... which you can read about by going to your Bible, 2 Thessalonians 2:1-12). (And contrary to popular belief, satan has never seen the sights of any place called 'hell', as of yet. He has a more special place for his demise). eagle 1 - Original Message - From: "YnrChyldzWyld" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Sunday, December 19, 1999 8:15 AM Subject: Re: [CTRL] Politically Correct Jesus > -Caveat Lector- > > On Sat, 18 Dec 1999, Eagle 1 wrote: > >Well then, with all that said... > >It stands to reason that the Biblical account of Lucifer's beauty should > >also be considered. In Genesis he was called the "Serpent", the most > >subtile of all the beasts... (this includes man). > > Can you tell me what dictionary you find the word 'subtile' in? And just > what its definition is? > > Sounds to me that you are telling us that Satan is below the little > squares of ceramic on our bathroom floors, as part of the subflooring? > > > June DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Politically Correct Jesus
-Caveat Lector- Terry Trainor wrote: > > -Caveat Lector- > > CTRL is not the proper forum, so I will not go into detail concerning > your several statements here. Needless to say, I am not of the school > of J, P, Q, or any of that other modern crud. But your last statement > I simply cannot let pass without comment. > > > -Original Message- > > From: Tatman, Robert [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > > Sent: Thursday, December 16, 1999 12:01 PM > > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Subject: Re: [CTRL] Politically Correct Jesus > > > > > > > Indeed, there is some evidence that > > Jesus deliberately > > sought to embody *all* of the many different messianic images > > found in the > > Hebrew Scriptures. > > Like deliberately being born of a virgin? > like deliberately seeking to be nailed to a cross Between two thieves? > Like deliberately seeking to have a sword rammed into his side? > Like deliberately dying? > Like deliberately being resurrected by God the Father? > > Gee - some guys will do ANYTHING for fame, huh? This is absurd. These examples you give are the RESULTS of retrofitting the mythological Jesus by taking " prophesies " out of the ( Jewish ) Bible and making Him seem to fit. The NT writers made so many stupid and contradictory mistakes doing this, that the resulting Jesus is one that only a desperate or non thinking true believer can believe. For a book full of examples, see " Gospel Fictions " by Randel Helms. Joshua2 DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Politically Correct Jesus
-Caveat Lector- On Sat, 18 Dec 1999, Eagle 1 wrote: >Well then, with all that said... >It stands to reason that the Biblical account of Lucifer's beauty should >also be considered. In Genesis he was called the "Serpent", the most >subtile of all the beasts... (this includes man). Can you tell me what dictionary you find the word 'subtile' in? And just what its definition is? Sounds to me that you are telling us that Satan is below the little squares of ceramic on our bathroom floors, as part of the subflooring? June ;-) |===SEASONS===GREETINGS==| | \ /| | *~o) )_ )_ )_ )_ - * - | | |`--) , ,_),_),_),_/ / \| | ``^^^`` /~\/~\/~\/~\| || | / / / | | | \ / (((((( -+- | | - * -.-#--..-#-..--#-. | | | /|\/__\ /_\ /__\ /-\ | |__//|\\| [] [] || [] [] || [] [] |___/---\___ldb__| artist -SheDragon (Laura) (ldb) *---* revcoal AT connix DOT com *---* It is UNLAWFUL to send unsolicited commercial email to this email address per United States Code Title 47 Sec. 227. I assess a fee of $500.00 US currency for reading and deleting such unsolicited commercial email. Sending such email to this address denotes acceptance of these terms. My posting messages to Usenet neither grants consent to receive unsolicited commercial email nor is intended to solicit commercial email. ** DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Politically Correct Jesus
-Caveat Lector- On Sat, 18 Dec 1999, Eagle 1 wrote: >I vary to differ with you. >IF the woman Hosea married, ever had relations with a married client during >the course of her business, she became an adultress. That title, or "sin", >is never removed, except by the grace or pardon of God. Perhaps...but 'adultery', as defined in the Bible itself, is an act that only married people can commit...adultery is cheating on one's spouse. An unmarried person cannot, by the Bible's own definition, be an adulterer or adulteress...although they may be guilty of fornication... even if they have sexual relations with a person who is married. The married person is guilty of adultery, their unmarried person is guilty of fornication, not adultery (since by being single, they cannot commit adultery by the Bible's definiton of the word). Even The Merriam-Webster Dictionary defines adultery as: sexual unfaithfulness of a married person. So you see, an unmarried person is incapable of committing adultery (altho they may be guilty of causing another person to commit it). >So, in other words, I disagree. >I will leave it at that. Well, you can disagree all you want, it doesn't change the FACTS of the matter...which includes the fact that you display great ignorance and little research in these matters. June ;-) *---* revcoal AT connix DOT com *---* It is UNLAWFUL to send unsolicited commercial email to this email address per United States Code Title 47 Sec. 227. I assess a fee of $500.00 US currency for reading and deleting such unsolicited commercial email. Sending such email to this address denotes acceptance of these terms. My posting messages to Usenet neither grants consent to receive unsolicited commercial email nor is intended to solicit commercial email. ** DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Politically Correct Jesus
-Caveat Lector- In a message dated 99-12-18 13:48:57 EST, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: >Beauty of the physical entity is not the most desired. >It is more the beauty within that is to be desired. An appropriate thing to consider in this day of media-manufactured "beautiful people," when no one is "real" to us unless they've appeared on TV, and everyone who appears on TV --especially heads of state and social lions-- is subject to extensive makeovers, wardrobe advice, voice coaches, acting lessons, and the help of public relations firms. The death of Princess Di got more airtime on TV and column inches in the press than Mother Theresa for the simple reason that she was photogenic and the old nun wasn't. It's a "miracle" that aging, frail, sometimes drooly Pope John Paul II --who STILL, or so I've heard, gets made up for the cameras) even gets his face in the news nowadays ... What's external to the person --physical appearance and "image"-- might be the most superficial and least character-based of human attributes, but it's certainly become the most marketable, just another "product" in a world running on sales of "commodities." The true spiritual worth of a person is something that can't be SEEN, but even worse, because of that fact, it can't be SOLD! Conversely, what CAN be seen --what might APPEAR to be "spiritual worth"-- IS "bought and sold" -- and should be questioned ... So, without even considering the quirky possibility that a Messiah or the Christ might in fact be "ugly," you're right about the fabled "beauty" of Lucifer, Satan, the Antichrist, or whoever.-- if the Devil himself ever wanted to deceive the whole world, all for the profit of EVIL, you can bet that he'd beat "God" hands-down in today's arena of mass-media ... DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Politically Correct Jesus
-Caveat Lector- Well then, with all that said... It stands to reason that the Biblical account of Lucifer's beauty should also be considered. In Genesis he was called the "Serpent", the most subtile of all the beasts... (this includes man). "Serpent" in this instance, is interpreted from the Hebrew to mean "glistening one; one who enchants and casts spells; one who hisses and murmers". Lucifer is said to have been created perfect in beauty; therefore, the antichrist, Lucifer, the Devil, the Old Serpent, the Dragon, "et al", should be classified as the most beautiful, and so does the Bible give him such traits, unlike common stories that he is ugly, has horns, carries a pitchfork, while wearing red long-handled underwear. He's wants to present himself as God, as is described in the greatest conspiracy of the Bible and according to "Isaiah 14:12-16", since long ago. (And he will soon get his opportunity to appear as the Messiah). Ezekiel acknowledged that he was of much beauty and wisdom, according to the letter to the King of Tyre, of whom when reading on, we find that the King of Tyre is merely a type of antichrist to come, according to the book of the same name chapter 28:1-19 In the same passage, we find that this cherub was not animal or human, but rather a creature called a 'cherub'. The Bible / Hebrew is very non-descript of this being. It is not directly defined as to what a cherub actually is, other than a protector of the mercy seat of God, as described in Exodus regarding the design applications for the ark of the covenant. However, information can be gathered from the Bible that indicates that this being is nothing like anything we have ever experienced in our course of humanity, either living or dead. Cherubs are called "living creatures" in the Revelation. Cherubs, contrary to popular belief, are not "angels" or "messengers", but rather a non-mobile creature attached to the presence of God, that is relatively and totally different than anything we know of, past or present on the face of the earth, other than Lucifer's temporary detachment that caused his demise and judgment which is awaiting to be fulfilled. Beauty of the physical entity is not the most desired. It is more the beauty within that is to be desired. eagle 1 - Original Message - From: "Das GOAT" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Saturday, December 18, 1999 6:34 AM Subject: Re: [CTRL] Politically Correct Jesus > -Caveat Lector- > > Wow. At least two people (notably John H. Taylor and Robert Tatman) jumped > in with the correct response, in BALLPARK terms, but NEITHER zeroed in on the > RELEVANT passages in the Old Testament regarding the UGLINESS of the > "Suffering Servant" -- allegedly Jesus Christ, as Biblical "prophecy" sees > it. And predictably, even the correct passages in Mr Taylor's post, from > http://www.jewsforjudaism.org/j4j-2000/index.html, SKIP OVER the relevant > verses, OBFUSCATING the entire issue beneath a numbing smokescreen of > secondary pious "interpretation" and cross-references. How typical! > > Okay, let's look right at the statements in question, used to argue that the > "Messiah" or "Christ" was or will be UGLY, and was SHUNNED for his ugliness > and/or his "disease." > (Taylor's post is included at the end, so you can watch our AVOIDANCE of the > fact.) > > > Isaiah 52:13-15 and 53:2-6 et seq., KING JAMES translation: > > 52:13 Behold, my servant shall deal prudently, he shall be > exalted and extolled, and be very high. > 52:14 As many were astonied at thee; HIS VISAGE WAS SO MARRED > MORE THAN ANY MAN, and HIS FORM [MARRED] MORE THAN THE SONS OF > MEN: > 52:15 So shall he sprinkle many nations; THE KINGS SHALL SHUT > THEIR MOUTHS AT HIM: for that which had not been told them shall > they see; and that which they had not heard shall they consider. > ... > > 53:2 For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant and as a > root, out of a dry ground: HE HATH NO FORM NOR COMELINESS; and > WHEN WE SHALL SEE HIM, THERE IS NO BEAUTY that we should DESIRE > him. > 53:3 He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and > acquainted with grief: and WE HID AS IT WERE OUR FACES FROM HIM; > he was despised, and we esteemed him not. > 53:4 Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our > sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and > afflicted. > 53:5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was > bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was > upon him; and with his stripes we are healed. > 53:6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every > one to his
Re: [CTRL] Politically Correct Jesus
-Caveat Lector- I vary to differ with you. IF the woman Hosea married, ever had relations with a married client during the course of her business, she became an adultress. That title, or "sin", is never removed, except by the grace or pardon of God. So, in other words, I disagree. I will leave it at that. eagle 1 - Original Message - From: "YnrChyldzWyld" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Saturday, December 18, 1999 7:48 AM Subject: Re: [CTRL] Politically Correct Jesus > -Caveat Lector- > > On Fri, 17 Dec 1999, Eagle 1 wrote: > >There is a difference between "sin" and "disobedience". > >The two are not equal; nor do they have the same connotations. > >Example: God ordered Hosea to marry a whore - Hosea 1:2. He "obeyed" ... > >but technically, he "sinned", because he became party to a "sin" of the > >flesh, which was 'adultry'. > > Wrong. Adultery (try learning how to spell it correctly) according to > the Bible, is sexual relations between a man and a woman who are both > married to someone else. If only one partner is married, only that > person is committing adultery. An unmarried person cannot commit > adultery, neither is sexual intercourse between a man and a woman who are > legally married to each other adultery. > > Hosea was legally married to the whore, therefore he could not be > committing adultery when he had sexual relations with her. Neither was > she an adulteress when having sexual relations with Hosea. And the fact > that she was able to legally marry Hosea suggests that she was not > married to another man, therefore even when she made a living as a whore, > SHE did not commit adultery, even tho a client may have been married. It > would have been her married clients who were adulterers... > > > June DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Politically Correct Jesus
-Caveat Lector- >even when she made a living as a whore, More likely she was a worshiper of Ashera or Astarte or whatever She was called in the local dialect, and as such practiced ritual prostitution as part her religion. If so, once a year she turned a single trick. The money went to charity and temple vestments. If she were particularly religious, and young, she might do it full time for a while. But it wasn't a trade that one worked like carpentry of tax collecting, as it is today. It was a sacrament of a competing religion. That's why Jews preached against it. That's why they still preach against it, as do the followers of Judiasm's primary break away sub-sects, Christianity and Islam. Everyone always preaches against the sacraments of competing religion. Or they can be adopted. That happens sometimes, too. DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Politically Correct Jesus
-Caveat Lector- On Fri, 17 Dec 1999, Eagle 1 wrote: >There is a difference between "sin" and "disobedience". >The two are not equal; nor do they have the same connotations. >Example: God ordered Hosea to marry a whore - Hosea 1:2. He "obeyed" ... >but technically, he "sinned", because he became party to a "sin" of the >flesh, which was 'adultry'. Wrong. Adultery (try learning how to spell it correctly) according to the Bible, is sexual relations between a man and a woman who are both married to someone else. If only one partner is married, only that person is committing adultery. An unmarried person cannot commit adultery, neither is sexual intercourse between a man and a woman who are legally married to each other adultery. Hosea was legally married to the whore, therefore he could not be committing adultery when he had sexual relations with her. Neither was she an adulteress when having sexual relations with Hosea. And the fact that she was able to legally marry Hosea suggests that she was not married to another man, therefore even when she made a living as a whore, SHE did not commit adultery, even tho a client may have been married. It would have been her married clients who were adulterers... June ;-) |===SEASONS===GREETINGS==| | \ /| | *~o) )_ )_ )_ )_ - * - | | |`--) , ,_),_),_),_/ / \| | ``^^^`` /~\/~\/~\/~\| || | / / / | | | \ / (((((( -+- | | - * -.-#--..-#-..--#-. | | | /|\/__\ /_\ /__\ /-\ | |__//|\\| [] [] || [] [] || [] [] |___/---\___ldb__| artist -SheDragon (Laura) (ldb) *---* revcoal AT connix DOT com *---* It is UNLAWFUL to send unsolicited commercial email to this email address per United States Code Title 47 Sec. 227. I assess a fee of $500.00 US currency for reading and deleting such unsolicited commercial email. Sending such email to this address denotes acceptance of these terms. My posting messages to Usenet neither grants consent to receive unsolicited commercial email nor is intended to solicit commercial email. ** DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Politically Correct Jesus
-Caveat Lector-
Wow. At least two people (notably John H. Taylor and Robert Tatman) jumped
in with the correct response, in BALLPARK terms, but NEITHER zeroed in on the
RELEVANT passages in the Old Testament regarding the UGLINESS of the
"Suffering Servant" -- allegedly Jesus Christ, as Biblical "prophecy" sees
it. And predictably, even the correct passages in Mr Taylor's post, from
http://www.jewsforjudaism.org/j4j-2000/index.html, SKIP OVER the relevant
verses, OBFUSCATING the entire issue beneath a numbing smokescreen of
secondary pious "interpretation" and cross-references. How typical!
Okay, let's look right at the statements in question, used to argue that the
"Messiah" or "Christ" was or will be UGLY, and was SHUNNED for his ugliness
and/or his "disease."
(Taylor's post is included at the end, so you can watch our AVOIDANCE of the
fact.)
Isaiah 52:13-15 and 53:2-6 et seq., KING JAMES translation:
52:13 Behold, my servant shall deal prudently, he shall be
exalted and extolled, and be very high.
52:14 As many were astonied at thee; HIS VISAGE WAS SO MARRED
MORE THAN ANY MAN, and HIS FORM [MARRED] MORE THAN THE SONS OF
MEN:
52:15 So shall he sprinkle many nations; THE KINGS SHALL SHUT
THEIR MOUTHS AT HIM: for that which had not been told them shall
they see; and that which they had not heard shall they consider.
...
53:2 For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant and as a
root, out of a dry ground: HE HATH NO FORM NOR COMELINESS; and
WHEN WE SHALL SEE HIM, THERE IS NO BEAUTY that we should DESIRE
him.
53:3 He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and
acquainted with grief: and WE HID AS IT WERE OUR FACES FROM HIM;
he was despised, and we esteemed him not.
53:4 Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our
sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and
afflicted.
53:5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was
bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was
upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.
53:6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every
one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of
us all.
From the HEBREW (Masoretic text), literally translated into English:
52:13 Watch, my servant who shall minister wisely will be lifted
up and held high, greatly -- as (great) as the 'disfigurement'
[MShChTh] of his appearance among (other) men and of his form
among (other) human beings -- to the astonishment of many.
52:14 Thus he 'sprinkles' [=a "purifying" gesture] many (other)
nations -- (Because) on (seeing} him, kings will be speechless,
since they will be witnessing something they had never been told
about and contemplating (something) they had never heard of.
...
53:2 (He was) without stature or attractiveness that might cause
anyone to notice him, and without impressive appearance that
might cause anyone to admire him.
53:3 (He was) despised and rejected by people, a man of woes,
having much experience of pain. Others averted their eyes
from him in disgust, not seeing anything worthwhile in him.
53:4 (But) even while we regarded {him} as (one whom) God had
punished (as if) with the plague and misforune, (it was) really
OUR pain he held high and OUR woes he carried around.
53:5 He was humiliated by OUR misdeeds, (he was) tormented from
OUR wickedness. In him (there existed) an offense to our peace
of mind, so by 'whipping' HIM, (we) felt OURSELVES 'restored.'
53:6 (We are) all like sheep gone astray, (every) man having
turned aside his eyes to {pursue} his (own) course -- but through
HIM, YHWH has made us encounter the wickedness in all of US.
_
KJV 53:7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened
not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a
sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.
KJV 53:8 He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who
shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land
of the living: for the transgression of my people was he
stricken.
KJV 53:9 And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the
rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was
any deceit in his mouth.
KJV 53:10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him
to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he
shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure
of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.
KJV 53:11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be
satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify
many; for he shall bear their iniquities.
KJV 53:12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great,
and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath
poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the
transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession
for the transgressors.
__
Re: [CTRL] Politically Correct Jesus
-Caveat Lector- In a message dated 12/17/99 6:48:28 AM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > << is said to have "spilled his seed on the ground". God then kills Onan. > Personally I think Onan was killed for disobeying God and not for the > masturbation, or the spilling of the seed. >> > > I've always wondered at the odd interpretation in this case. If your God > orders you to do anything, and you failed to do so, I would imagine it was a > sin. Besides I'm seeing Coitus Interruptus rather than masterbation anyway. > Oh well. Prudy I agree, my point was that it was the disobeying which was the sin, not the "coitus interruptus" (or masturbation if anyone prefers to interpret it that way). ** *** "Welcome to the desert of the real." Morpheus, "The Matrix". "The most merciful thing in the world, I think, is the inability of the human mind to correlate all its contents. We live on a placid island of ignorance in the midst of seas of infinity, and it is not meant that we should voyage far. The sciences, each straining in its own direction, have hitherto harmed us little; but someday the piecing together of dissociated knowledge will open up such terrifying vistas of reality, and of our frightful position therein, that we shall either go mad from the revelation or flee from the deadly light into the peace and safety of a new dark age." H.P.Lovecraft; "The Call of Cthulhu" DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Politically Correct Jesus
-Caveat Lector- Well, Tenebrous, aside from it being his brother's *widow*, your remarks are right in line with standard mainstream theological thinking today. You're quite correct that there aren't any other references to anything that could be construed as masturbation, in either the Old Testament or the New Testament. Virtually all of the O.T. references to prohibited sex acts occur in tandem with prohibited *religious* practices, which leads to the logical conclusion that the sex acts in question actually formed part of the prohibited "pagan" (i.e., non-Yahwist) practices. Now, lest someone charge me with being too far off-list, I hasten to submit that this is a perfect example of editorial censorship in the compilation of the Bible over the centuries. *All* of the confusion stems from the deletion of explicit references to the deity or deities whose cult was prohibited. There is some (admittedly controversial) evidence, which we have discussed before on the list, that prior to the Exile, the Hebrews were, at least part of the time, *henotheistic*--that is, they worshipped *several* gods, of whom Yahweh Sabaoth, "the Lord of Hosts" (i.e., the Generalissimo of Heaven), was primus inter pares, much like Zeus among the Olympians. (x-ref the thread DasGOAT and I got going a while back which included the considerable evidence for cultural and religious interaction between Greece and Palestine-Syria.) Apparently Yahweh had at least one consort, Asherah, plus possibly Tanit of the Phoenicians. The Deuteronomic reforms under "Good King Josiah," as Robert Graves calls him, stripped off the consorts and other "impure" accretions, then recast the Law of Moses in the scroll that was "found" in the Temple and brought to Josiah, which became what we know today as Deuteronomy (that is, "the second law"). It is this new legal recension that forms the basis of the subsequent social code that lies behind much of our modern social customs, or rather the "officially-sanctioned" version of those customs. > -Original Message- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > Sent: Thursday, December 16, 1999 7:21 PM > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subject: Re: [CTRL] Politically Correct Jesus > > -Caveat Lector- > > In a message dated 12/16/99 3:38:06 PM Eastern Standard Time, > [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > > > > > << his tremor > > caused him to masturbate, which is a sin. >> > > > > I've heard a lot of strange things from Christian beliefs, but this is > the > > first I've heard of this. God denies ugly Christians this only form of > > relief? I don't recall seeing this in the ten commandments. > > > > Regards, > > Bob Stokes > > It is a hotly debated topic. Most of the people who say that masturbation > is > a sin point out one particular passage of scripture to support the view. > It's in the OT somewhere, where God commands a man named Onan to go into > his > brothers wife (or some such) and have sex with her in order to produce an > heir (at least this is how I remember the story). Onan fails to do so, > and > is said to have "spilled his seed on the ground". God then kills Onan. > Personally I think Onan was killed for disobeying God and not for the > masturbation, or the spilling of the seed. That is of course predicated > on > the notion that any of that stuff has any basis in fact, or that it is a > canon you hold to. I am not aware of any other passages of the Bible > which > prohibit the activity, though I am quite certain the Roman Church has it > listed as a sin. > > DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Politically Correct Jesus
-Caveat Lector- There is a difference between "sin" and "disobedience". The two are not equal; nor do they have the same connotations. Example: God ordered Hosea to marry a whore - Hosea 1:2. He "obeyed" ... but technically, he "sinned", because he became party to a "sin" of the flesh, which was 'adultry'. With regards to the God of the Bible, 'obedience' is always more preferred rather than if a thing is a sin. Sin, has been superflourized by man with modernday folklores of religion... eagle 1 - Original Message - From: "Prudence L. Kuhn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Friday, December 17, 1999 5:48 AM Subject: Re: [CTRL] Politically Correct Jesus > -Caveat Lector- > > In a message dated 12/16/1999 7:20:50 PM Eastern Standard Time, > [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > > << is said to have "spilled his seed on the ground". God then kills Onan. > Personally I think Onan was killed for disobeying God and not for the > masturbation, or the spilling of the seed. >> > > I've always wondered at the odd interpretation in this case. If your God > orders you to do anything, and you failed to do so, I would imagine it was a > sin. Besides I'm seeing Coitus Interruptus rather than masterbation anyway. > Oh well. Prudy DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Politically Correct Jesus
-Caveat Lector- In a message dated 12/16/1999 7:20:50 PM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: << is said to have "spilled his seed on the ground". God then kills Onan. Personally I think Onan was killed for disobeying God and not for the masturbation, or the spilling of the seed. >> I've always wondered at the odd interpretation in this case. If your God orders you to do anything, and you failed to do so, I would imagine it was a sin. Besides I'm seeing Coitus Interruptus rather than masterbation anyway. Oh well. Prudy DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Politically Correct Jesus
-Caveat Lector- In a message dated 12/16/99 3:38:06 PM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > > << his tremor > caused him to masturbate, which is a sin. >> > > I've heard a lot of strange things from Christian beliefs, but this is the > first I've heard of this. God denies ugly Christians this only form of > relief? I don't recall seeing this in the ten commandments. > > Regards, > Bob Stokes It is a hotly debated topic. Most of the people who say that masturbation is a sin point out one particular passage of scripture to support the view. It's in the OT somewhere, where God commands a man named Onan to go into his brothers wife (or some such) and have sex with her in order to produce an heir (at least this is how I remember the story). Onan fails to do so, and is said to have "spilled his seed on the ground". God then kills Onan. Personally I think Onan was killed for disobeying God and not for the masturbation, or the spilling of the seed. That is of course predicated on the notion that any of that stuff has any basis in fact, or that it is a canon you hold to. I am not aware of any other passages of the Bible which prohibit the activity, though I am quite certain the Roman Church has it listed as a sin. ** *** "Welcome to the desert of the real." Morpheus, "The Matrix". "The most merciful thing in the world, I think, is the inability of the human mind to correlate all its contents. We live on a placid island of ignorance in the midst of seas of infinity, and it is not meant that we should voyage far. The sciences, each straining in its own direction, have hitherto harmed us little; but someday the piecing together of dissociated knowledge will open up such terrifying vistas of reality, and of our frightful position therein, that we shall either go mad from the revelation or flee from the deadly light into the peace and safety of a new dark age." H.P.Lovecraft; "The Call of Cthulhu" DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Politically Correct Jesus
-Caveat Lector- Well I must say I have enjoyed the replies to my irreverent comments.. LMAO Peter We are about to go on a Journey. All Aboard http://sites.netscape.net/gsussnzl/poleshift - Original Message - From: Tenorlove <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Friday, December 17, 1999 10:33 AM Subject: Re: [CTRL] Politically Correct Jesus > -Caveat Lector- > > --- earthman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > -Caveat Lector- > > > > You know what I think Paul's defect was. Now I am no scholar so don't > > be > > offended, but I have been reading between the lines of some > > information > > lately, and I think he may have been a homosexual. > > He seems to be anti women. He seemed to be very jealous of Mary > > Magdalene > > and his teachings belittled the role of woman. > > The thorn in his side may have meant his back side.. > > From what I have read Paul was a prick.. > > Now only my opinion so please don't get upset. > > > > Peter > > I've thought the same thing for years--it's so nice to know someone > else feels the same way. Maybe the thorn was hemorrhoids > __ > Do You Yahoo!? > Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. All in one place. > Yahoo! Shopping: http://shopping.yahoo.com > > DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER > == > CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic > screeds are not allowed. Substance-not soapboxing! These are sordid matters > and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright > frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects > spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL > gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; > be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and > nazi's need not apply. > > Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. > > Archives Available at: > http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html > > http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ > > To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: > SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: > SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Om > DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Politically Correct Jesus
-Caveat Lector- Onan's sin was not masturbation; it was coitus interruptus, refusing to "bring up seed unto his dead brother for an inheritance" by impregnating his brother's widow, as required by Jewish law in OT times. __ Do You Yahoo!? Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. All in one place. Yahoo! Shopping: http://shopping.yahoo.com DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Politically Correct Jesus
-Caveat Lector- --- Terry Trainor <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > -Caveat Lector- > > Well, as long as we are speculating, I always figured that Paul > was afflicted with severe nervous disorder, which caused an > uncontrollable trembling of his extremities. This troubled him > so much because whenever he held himself to urinate, his tremor > caused him to masturbate, which is a sin. > I think he did it on purpose--otherwise, he would have sat down to urinate. __ Do You Yahoo!? Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. All in one place. Yahoo! Shopping: http://shopping.yahoo.com DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Politically Correct Jesus
-Caveat Lector- --- earthman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > -Caveat Lector- > > You know what I think Paul's defect was. Now I am no scholar so don't > be > offended, but I have been reading between the lines of some > information > lately, and I think he may have been a homosexual. > He seems to be anti women. He seemed to be very jealous of Mary > Magdalene > and his teachings belittled the role of woman. > The thorn in his side may have meant his back side.. > From what I have read Paul was a prick.. > Now only my opinion so please don't get upset. > > Peter I've thought the same thing for years--it's so nice to know someone else feels the same way. Maybe the thorn was hemorrhoids __ Do You Yahoo!? Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. All in one place. Yahoo! Shopping: http://shopping.yahoo.com DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Politically Correct Jesus
-Caveat Lector- First off, I was being facetious. Second, it's not a belief of all Christians, nor is it restricted to Christians. Something about a guy named Onan, IIRC. And 'self abuse'. I was basing the story on my Dad, who had developed a severe tremor in his later years. He confided in me once; "It's not TOO bad, though. Sometimes I'll start out intendin' to take a leak, but end up jerkin' off!" Bless the old man's heart. He didn't think it was a sin either, Bob. > -Original Message- > From: Bob Stokes [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > Sent: Thursday, December 16, 1999 2:38 PM > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subject: Re: [CTRL] Politically Correct Jesus > > > -Caveat Lector- > > In a message dated 99-12-16 14:51:57 EST, you write: > > << his tremor > caused him to masturbate, which is a sin. >> > > I've heard a lot of strange things from Christian beliefs, > but this is the > first I've heard of this. God denies ugly Christians this > only form of > relief? I don't recall seeing this in the ten commandments. > > Regards, > Bob Stokes > > DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER > == > CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. > Proselyzting propagandic > screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are > sordid matters > and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, > misdirections and outright > frauds is used politically by different groups with major > and minor effects > spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That > being said, CTRL > gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always > suggests to readers; > be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to > Holocaust denial and > nazi's need not apply. > > Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. > == > == > Archives Available at: > http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html > > http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ > == > == > To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: > SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: > SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Om > DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Politically Correct Jesus
-Caveat Lector- In a message dated 99-12-16 14:51:57 EST, you write: << his tremor caused him to masturbate, which is a sin. >> I've heard a lot of strange things from Christian beliefs, but this is the first I've heard of this. God denies ugly Christians this only form of relief? I don't recall seeing this in the ten commandments. Regards, Bob Stokes DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Politically Correct Jesus
-Caveat Lector- Excellent. And to your point, I agree. It was the area of higher criticism which I declined to enter due to the forum here. AmPat > -Original Message- > From: Tatman, Robert [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > Sent: Thursday, December 16, 1999 1:47 PM > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subject: Re: [CTRL] Politically Correct Jesus > > > -Caveat Lector- > > Terry, I didn't say I *believed* that hypothesis...only that someone > suggested it. (As it happens, it was Robert Graves in a novel > called *King > Jesus*, which is probably Graves's oddest book. Hugh Schoenfeld's *The > Passover Plot* and its sequels say much the same thing.) > However, because it > involves a conspiracy, whether genuine or not, I'd suggest > that it actually > *is* a legitimate topic for this list. > > Brief personal statement: I'm a Christian. The Jesus of the > Gospels speaks > to me. The Apostle Paul speaks to me. When I read the Bible, > I don't expect > to find an absolutely correct historical record. The Bible is a *faith > document*...the records of two thousand years of a people's > dealings with > God. When I read about Jesus' birth, his Passion, his death and > Resurrection, I don't go looking for validation from the > archaeological > record, *because it doesn't matter to me* what the > archaeologists think. If > they never find *any* evidence that Jesus actually existed, it *still* > doesn't matter to me, because I know in my heart, in my soul, > in my deepest > center, that Jesus Christ is real and that he is the Way, the > Truth, and the > Life. I don't need physical proof to know that. > > > -Original Message----- > > From: Terry Trainor [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > > Sent: Thursday, December 16, 1999 1:29 PM > > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Subject: Re: [CTRL] Politically Correct Jesus > > > > -Caveat Lector- > > > > CTRL is not the proper forum, so I will not go into detail > concerning > > your several statements here. Needless to say, I am not of > the school > > of J, P, Q, or any of that other modern crud. But your > last statement > > I simply cannot let pass without comment. > > > > > -Original Message- > > > From: Tatman, Robert [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > > > Sent: Thursday, December 16, 1999 12:01 PM > > > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > Subject: Re: [CTRL] Politically Correct Jesus > > > > > > > > > > > > Indeed, there is some evidence that > > > Jesus deliberately > > > sought to embody *all* of the many different messianic images > > > found in the > > > Hebrew Scriptures. > > > > Like deliberately being born of a virgin? > > like deliberately seeking to be nailed to a cross Between > two thieves? > > Like deliberately seeking to have a sword rammed into his side? > > Like deliberately dying? > > Like deliberately being resurrected by God the Father? > > > > Gee - some guys will do ANYTHING for fame, huh? > > > > > > > > > > DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER > == > CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. > Proselyzting propagandic > screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are > sordid matters > and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, > misdirections and outright > frauds is used politically by different groups with major > and minor effects > spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That > being said, CTRL > gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always > suggests to readers; > be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to > Holocaust denial and > nazi's need not apply. > > Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. > == > == > Archives Available at: > http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html > > http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ > == > == > To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: > SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: > SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Om > DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different g
Re: [CTRL] Politically Correct Jesus
-Caveat Lector- Well, as long as we are speculating, I always figured that Paul was afflicted with severe nervous disorder, which caused an uncontrollable trembling of his extremities. This troubled him so much because whenever he held himself to urinate, his tremor caused him to masturbate, which is a sin. No offense from me either - just a thought. :^) AmPat > -Original Message- > From: earthman [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > Sent: Thursday, December 16, 1999 1:36 PM > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subject: Re: [CTRL] Politically Correct Jesus > > > -Caveat Lector- > > You know what I think Paul's defect was. Now I am no scholar > so don't be > offended, but I have been reading between the lines of some > information > lately, and I think he may have been a homosexual. > He seems to be anti women. He seemed to be very jealous of > Mary Magdalene > and his teachings belittled the role of woman. > The thorn in his side may have meant his back side.. > From what I have read Paul was a prick.. > Now only my opinion so please don't get upset. > > Peter > > We are about to go on a Journey. All Aboard > http://sites.netscape.net/gsussnzl/poleshift > > > > > - Original Message - > From: Das GOAT <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Sent: Wednesday, December 15, 1999 11:47 PM > Subject: Re: [CTRL] Politically Correct Jesus > > > > -Caveat Lector- > > > > In a message dated 99-12-14 14:08:00 EST, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > > > > >This is also why historians often disagree about the > authenticity of > Paul's > > >writings, and often renounce his writings, because the handwriting > varies > > >in more than one copy of the manuscript notations. > > > > Beg to differ. No manuscript of any book in the New > Testament is --or > ever > > was, in historical times-- in the "author's" own hand. All > were copies of > > copies of copies, ad infinitum, of scribes. Also, > historians dispute the > > authenticity of several of "Paul's" writings not because of any > graphological > > differences but because of rather glaring differences in > the criteria used > > for determining authorship -- vocabulary, grammar, mode of > exposition, in > > short "style." Shakespeare did not write or think like Hemingway. > > > > For my next two cents, I've read all the best scholarly > studies of Paul, > and > > the honest conclusion is that no one knows what Paul's "defect" was. > There > > aren't any "outside" sources in history, even in the Church, that > described > > his appearance. All we have to work with is the internal > evidence Paul > > himself gives in his writings, and those are not specific > at all, beyond > > references to some "thorn in his side," physically or > behaviorally, which > > tended to disrupt his self-control, leading to results he considered > > "sinful." The consensus is that, IF it even WAS a PHYSICAL > problem, it > may > > have been epilepsy. > > > > DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER > > == > > CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting > propagandic > > screeds are not allowed. Substance-not soapboxing! These are sordid > matters > > and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, > misdirections and > outright > > frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor > effects > > spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That > being said, CTRL > > gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always > suggests to > readers; > > be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to > Holocaust denial and > > nazi's need not apply. > > > > Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. > > > == > == > > Archives Available at: > > http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html > > > > http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ > > > == > == > > To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: > > SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: > > SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > Om > > > > DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER > == > CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. > Proselyzting propagandic > sc
Re: [CTRL] Politically Correct Jesus
-Caveat Lector- Terry, I didn't say I *believed* that hypothesis...only that someone suggested it. (As it happens, it was Robert Graves in a novel called *King Jesus*, which is probably Graves's oddest book. Hugh Schoenfeld's *The Passover Plot* and its sequels say much the same thing.) However, because it involves a conspiracy, whether genuine or not, I'd suggest that it actually *is* a legitimate topic for this list. Brief personal statement: I'm a Christian. The Jesus of the Gospels speaks to me. The Apostle Paul speaks to me. When I read the Bible, I don't expect to find an absolutely correct historical record. The Bible is a *faith document*...the records of two thousand years of a people's dealings with God. When I read about Jesus' birth, his Passion, his death and Resurrection, I don't go looking for validation from the archaeological record, *because it doesn't matter to me* what the archaeologists think. If they never find *any* evidence that Jesus actually existed, it *still* doesn't matter to me, because I know in my heart, in my soul, in my deepest center, that Jesus Christ is real and that he is the Way, the Truth, and the Life. I don't need physical proof to know that. > -Original Message- > From: Terry Trainor [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > Sent: Thursday, December 16, 1999 1:29 PM > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subject: Re: [CTRL] Politically Correct Jesus > > -Caveat Lector- > > CTRL is not the proper forum, so I will not go into detail concerning > your several statements here. Needless to say, I am not of the school > of J, P, Q, or any of that other modern crud. But your last statement > I simply cannot let pass without comment. > > > -Original Message- > > From: Tatman, Robert [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > > Sent: Thursday, December 16, 1999 12:01 PM > > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Subject: Re: [CTRL] Politically Correct Jesus > > > > > > > Indeed, there is some evidence that > > Jesus deliberately > > sought to embody *all* of the many different messianic images > > found in the > > Hebrew Scriptures. > > Like deliberately being born of a virgin? > like deliberately seeking to be nailed to a cross Between two thieves? > Like deliberately seeking to have a sword rammed into his side? > Like deliberately dying? > Like deliberately being resurrected by God the Father? > > Gee - some guys will do ANYTHING for fame, huh? > > > > DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Politically Correct Jesus
-Caveat Lector- You know what I think Paul's defect was. Now I am no scholar so don't be offended, but I have been reading between the lines of some information lately, and I think he may have been a homosexual. He seems to be anti women. He seemed to be very jealous of Mary Magdalene and his teachings belittled the role of woman. The thorn in his side may have meant his back side.. >From what I have read Paul was a prick.. Now only my opinion so please don't get upset. Peter We are about to go on a Journey. All Aboard http://sites.netscape.net/gsussnzl/poleshift - Original Message - From: Das GOAT <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Wednesday, December 15, 1999 11:47 PM Subject: Re: [CTRL] Politically Correct Jesus > -Caveat Lector- > > In a message dated 99-12-14 14:08:00 EST, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > > >This is also why historians often disagree about the authenticity of Paul's > >writings, and often renounce his writings, because the handwriting varies > >in more than one copy of the manuscript notations. > > Beg to differ. No manuscript of any book in the New Testament is --or ever > was, in historical times-- in the "author's" own hand. All were copies of > copies of copies, ad infinitum, of scribes. Also, historians dispute the > authenticity of several of "Paul's" writings not because of any graphological > differences but because of rather glaring differences in the criteria used > for determining authorship -- vocabulary, grammar, mode of exposition, in > short "style." Shakespeare did not write or think like Hemingway. > > For my next two cents, I've read all the best scholarly studies of Paul, and > the honest conclusion is that no one knows what Paul's "defect" was. There > aren't any "outside" sources in history, even in the Church, that described > his appearance. All we have to work with is the internal evidence Paul > himself gives in his writings, and those are not specific at all, beyond > references to some "thorn in his side," physically or behaviorally, which > tended to disrupt his self-control, leading to results he considered > "sinful." The consensus is that, IF it even WAS a PHYSICAL problem, it may > have been epilepsy. > > DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER > == > CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic > screeds are not allowed. Substance-not soapboxing! These are sordid matters > and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright > frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects > spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL > gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; > be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and > nazi's need not apply. > > Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. > > Archives Available at: > http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html > > http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ > > To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: > SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: > SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Om > DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Politically Correct Jesus
-Caveat Lector- CTRL is not the proper forum, so I will not go into detail concerning your several statements here. Needless to say, I am not of the school of J, P, Q, or any of that other modern crud. But your last statement I simply cannot let pass without comment. > -Original Message- > From: Tatman, Robert [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > Sent: Thursday, December 16, 1999 12:01 PM > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subject: Re: [CTRL] Politically Correct Jesus > > Indeed, there is some evidence that > Jesus deliberately > sought to embody *all* of the many different messianic images > found in the > Hebrew Scriptures. Like deliberately being born of a virgin? like deliberately seeking to be nailed to a cross Between two thieves? Like deliberately seeking to have a sword rammed into his side? Like deliberately dying? Like deliberately being resurrected by God the Father? Gee - some guys will do ANYTHING for fame, huh? DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Politically Correct Jesus
-Caveat Lector- Second Isaiah is the part of Isaiah starting with 40:1, "Comfort, comfort ye my people, saith your God..." The style is very different from the earlier chapters, indicating a different author of the same prophetic school. Look at it from the viewpoint of a Jewish scholar, who obviously isn't interested in Jesus as Messiah: this part of Isaiah was probably written just before the Exile, when Israel (the northern part of the Divided Kingdom) had been absorbed by Babylon and Judea was waiting nervously for the ravening beast to turn in its direction. There was already a tendency to personify Israel, which would become much more significant after the return. Read through Kings and Chronicles--all of the evils visited upon the two kingdoms are attributed to monarchs who "departed from the ways of his fathers..."; that is, turned to the old semi-pagan forms of worship instead of worshipping Yahweh alone. By the same token, anything good is because the king "walked in the paths of righteousness." The Suffering Servant verses focus on the evil periods, and (according to this interpretation) portray Israel (the land, not the kingdom) as bearing the brunt of the people's sins. This is a quite legitimate interpretation from a Jewish viewpoint; the Christian assumption that it applies to Jesus is based on Jesus' application of its metaphors to himself. Indeed, there is some evidence that Jesus deliberately sought to embody *all* of the many different messianic images found in the Hebrew Scriptures. > -Original Message- > From: Terry Trainor [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > Sent: Thursday, December 16, 1999 7:22 AM > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subject: Re: [CTRL] Politically Correct Jesus > > -Caveat Lector- > > Hmm. There's only one Isaiah. This passage is located in Isaiah 53:3. > Reading the entire chapter (only 12 verses) leaves one with little doubt > that it is Jesus being spoken of here. Like that 'All we like sheep have > gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the Lord hath > laid > on him the iniquity of us all' (53:6), and 'He was wounded for our > transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: . . .' (53:5). With > all > respect to modern scholars, I don't see how Israel bore my sins, spent > time > in prison, or was punished by God for my failures. > > > -Original Message- > > From: Tatman, Robert [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > > Sent: Wednesday, December 15, 1999 3:34 PM > > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Subject: Re: [CTRL] Politically Correct Jesus > > > > > > -Caveat Lector- > > > > It *is* in Second Isaiah, but I can't remember the exact > > verse. The verse > > forms one of the most striking passages in Handel's > > *Messiah*: "He was a man > > of sorrows and acquainted with grief." It's part of the > > "suffering servant" > > theme, which many modern scholars believe refers not to a > > specific person > > but rather to Eretz Israel, the ever-suffering Land of Israel itself. > > Evangelical theologians, of course, generally consider the "suffering > > servant" passages to apply to Jesus Christ. > > > DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Politically Correct Jesus
-Caveat Lector- Hmm. There's only one Isaiah. This passage is located in Isaiah 53:3. Reading the entire chapter (only 12 verses) leaves one with little doubt that it is Jesus being spoken of here. Like that 'All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all' (53:6), and 'He was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: . . .' (53:5). With all respect to modern scholars, I don't see how Israel bore my sins, spent time in prison, or was punished by God for my failures. > -Original Message- > From: Tatman, Robert [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > Sent: Wednesday, December 15, 1999 3:34 PM > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subject: Re: [CTRL] Politically Correct Jesus > > > -Caveat Lector- > > It *is* in Second Isaiah, but I can't remember the exact > verse. The verse > forms one of the most striking passages in Handel's > *Messiah*: "He was a man > of sorrows and acquainted with grief." It's part of the > "suffering servant" > theme, which many modern scholars believe refers not to a > specific person > but rather to Eretz Israel, the ever-suffering Land of Israel itself. > Evangelical theologians, of course, generally consider the "suffering > servant" passages to apply to Jesus Christ. > > > -Original Message- > > From: Das GOAT [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > > Sent: Wednesday, December 15, 1999 5:26 AM > > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Subject: Re: [CTRL] Politically Correct Jesus > > > > -Caveat Lector- > > > > In a message dated 99-12-14 13:52:52 EST, > [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > > > > >Actually, there is a sort of underground tradition, mostly > in the later > > New > > >Testament apocrypha, that Jesus was in fact an ugly man ... > > > > That tradition seems to have originated with one of the > seldom-quoted Old > > Testament "prophecies" regarding the coming of the Messiah, therein > > called, I > > believe, the "man of sorrows." When correctly translated from the > > original > > Hebrew, it describes him as a man totally lacking in physical > > attractveness, > > even ugly, AND as socially rejected for his appearance, > like a thorn among > > roses or whatever. (It's been treated as "just a metaphor" > by Christians > > who > > know of it, but the description in context is a literal > one, and, apart > > from > > the desire to make the Savior one of the "beautiful > people," there's no > > other > > reason to doubt it being a simple statement of fact. To > sidestep the > > implications of that conclusion, in fact, some Biblicists > even resort to a > > Talmudic sleight of hand, claiming that "prophecy" refers > not to the One > > Yet > > to Come but to MOSES long ago. > > My OWN understanding, for what it's worth, is that it > refers to NEITHER > > and > > is not a "prophecy" at all but describes an historic > person, a "failed" > > Messiah ca. 400 BC.) > > > > If no one else comes forward first with the passage in > question, which I > > seem > > to recall is found in Second Isaiah, I'll look it up when I > have more time > > and post it here myself. > > > > > > DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER > == > CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. > Proselyzting propagandic > screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are > sordid matters > and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, > misdirections and outright > frauds is used politically by different groups with major > and minor effects > spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That > being said, CTRL > gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always > suggests to readers; > be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to > Holocaust denial and > nazi's need not apply. > > Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. > == > == > Archives Available at: > http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html > > http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ > == > == > To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: > SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: > SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] &g
Re: [CTRL] Politically Correct Jesus
-Caveat Lector- It *is* in Second Isaiah, but I can't remember the exact verse. The verse forms one of the most striking passages in Handel's *Messiah*: "He was a man of sorrows and acquainted with grief." It's part of the "suffering servant" theme, which many modern scholars believe refers not to a specific person but rather to Eretz Israel, the ever-suffering Land of Israel itself. Evangelical theologians, of course, generally consider the "suffering servant" passages to apply to Jesus Christ. > -Original Message- > From: Das GOAT [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > Sent: Wednesday, December 15, 1999 5:26 AM > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subject: Re: [CTRL] Politically Correct Jesus > > -Caveat Lector- > > In a message dated 99-12-14 13:52:52 EST, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > > >Actually, there is a sort of underground tradition, mostly in the later > New > >Testament apocrypha, that Jesus was in fact an ugly man ... > > That tradition seems to have originated with one of the seldom-quoted Old > Testament "prophecies" regarding the coming of the Messiah, therein > called, I > believe, the "man of sorrows." When correctly translated from the > original > Hebrew, it describes him as a man totally lacking in physical > attractveness, > even ugly, AND as socially rejected for his appearance, like a thorn among > roses or whatever. (It's been treated as "just a metaphor" by Christians > who > know of it, but the description in context is a literal one, and, apart > from > the desire to make the Savior one of the "beautiful people," there's no > other > reason to doubt it being a simple statement of fact. To sidestep the > implications of that conclusion, in fact, some Biblicists even resort to a > Talmudic sleight of hand, claiming that "prophecy" refers not to the One > Yet > to Come but to MOSES long ago. > My OWN understanding, for what it's worth, is that it refers to NEITHER > and > is not a "prophecy" at all but describes an historic person, a "failed" > Messiah ca. 400 BC.) > > If no one else comes forward first with the passage in question, which I > seem > to recall is found in Second Isaiah, I'll look it up when I have more time > and post it here myself. > > DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Politically Correct Jesus
ed and taken away without cause (52:4-5). A similar theme is developed in Psalm 44, wherein King David speaks of Israel's faithfulness even in the face of gentile oppression (44:17- 18) and describes Israel as "sheep to be slaughtered" in the midst of the unfaithful gentile nations (44:22,11). Regarding the claim that Jesus "did not open his mouth" when faced with oppression and affliction, see Matt. 27:46, Jn. 18:23, 36-37. 53:8 "From dominion and judgement he was taken away." Note the correct translation of the Hebrew. The Christians are forced to mistranslate, since - by Jesus' own testimony - he never had any rights to rulership or judgement, at least not on the "first coming." See, e.g., Jn. 3:17; Jn. 8:15; Jn. 12:47; Jn. 18:36. 53:8 "He was cut off out of the land of the living." 53:9 "His grave was assigned with wicked men." See Ez. 37:11-14, wherein Israelis described as "cut off" and G-D promises to open its "graves" and bring Israel back into its own land. Other examples of figurative deaths include Ex. 10:17; 2 Sam. 9:8; 2 Sam. 16:9. 53:8 "From my peoples' sins, there was injury to them." Here the Prophet makes absolutely clear, to anyone familiar with Biblical Hebrew, that the oppressed Servant is a collective Servant, not a single individual. The Hebrew word "lamoh", when used in our Scriptures, always means "to them" never "to him" and may be found, for example, in Psalm 99:7 - "They kept his testimonies, and the statute that He gave to them." 53:9 "And with the rich in his deaths." Perhaps King James should have changed the original Hebrew, which again makes clear that we are dealing with a collective Servant, i.e., Israel, which will "come to life" when the exile ends (Ez. 37:14). 53:9 "He had done no violence." See Matt. 21:12; Mk. 11:15-16; Lk. 19:45; Lk. 19:27; Matt. 10:34 and Lk. 12:51; then judge for yourself whether this passage is truly consistent with the New Testament account of Jesus. 53:10 "He shall see his seed." The Hebrew word for "seed", used in this verse, always refers to physical descendants in our Jewish Scriptures. See, e.g., Gen. 12:7; Gen. 15:13; Gen. 46:6; Ex. 28:43. A different word, generally translated as "sons", is used to refer to spiritual descendants (see Deut. 14:1, e.g.). 53:10 "He will prolong his days." Not only did Jesus die young, but how could the days be prolonged of someone who is alleged to be G-D? 53:11 "With his knowledge the righteous one, my Servant, will cause many to be just." Note again the correct translation: the Servant will cause many to be just, he will not "justify the many." The Jewish mission is to serve as a "light to the nations" which will ultimately lead the world to a knowledge of the one true G-D, this both by example (Deut. 4:5-8; Zech. 8:23) and by instructing the nations in G-D's Law (Isa. 2:3-4; Micah 4:2-3). 53:12 "Therefore, I will divide a portion to him with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the mighty." If Jesus is G-D, does the idea of reward have any meaning? Is it not rather the Jewish people - who righteously bore the sins of the world and yet remained faithful to G-D (Ps. 44) - who will be rewarded, and this in the manner described more fully in Isaiah chapters 52 and 54? -Original Message- From: Das GOAT [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: 15 December 1999 12:26 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [CTRL] Politically Correct Jesus -Caveat Lector- In DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Politically Correct Jesus
-Caveat Lector- On Tue, 14 Dec 1999, Eagle 1 wrote: >As far as Jesus with dark complexion? Who really knows? His body was never >found. And really, what does it matter what color his skin was? However, >if we follow the heritage, his skin was most likely what we know today as >European caucasian. Granted that His skin color doesn't matter, but there is no logical reason to assume He looked like a European caucasian, since He came from a Middle Eastern semitic peopleso it would be more likely that He had dark hair, dark eyes, and a fairly 'swarthy' skin (which I personally find attractive) >Jesus' claimed ancestry is directly from Adam, With a couple of thousand years interveningso it is foolish to expect Jesus to look exactly like Adam...just as it is foolish to put a modern European Caucasoid interpretation of 'ruddy complected'... What would 'ruddy complected' have meant to a Middle Eastern semitic people, who for the most part were of a fairly swarthy complexion? >nothing more. If you follow the Biblical historical record, his mother was >Jewish and of the Levites. Chances are most likely he was fair complected. There is no logic to this statement. There is no reason for the Levites of the period living in Judea to have been of any lighter complexion than their fellow Hebrewsand tomb paintings and mosaics found in archeological digs of Jewish temples of the period shows that they presented themselves as looking no different than modern day Palestinians >Those who are considered "Arabic" or dark complected, are technically from >the premature liason of Abraham with the bond woman, which produced and >whose descendants are of Ishmael, not the sons (descendants) of Isaac. And why are we to presume that neither Abraham nor Sarah were typically swarthy as other semitic people are? >Historically, it can all be proven by Biblical history, for those who are >willing to do the research, and not listen to what some man says about it. Even taking the Bible as unerring history, does not justify the presumption that Abraham, Sarah, Mary or Jesus were of a lighter complexion than their fellow semites... June ;-) |===SEASONS===GREETINGS==| | \ /| | *~o) )_ )_ )_ )_ - * - | | |`--) , ,_),_),_),_/ / \| | ``^^^`` /~\/~\/~\/~\| || | / / / | | | \ / (((((( -+- | | - * -.-#--..-#-..--#-. | | | /|\/__\ /_\ /__\ /-\ | |__//|\\| [] [] || [] [] || [] [] |___/---\___ldb__| artist -SheDragon (Laura) (ldb) *---* revcoal AT connix DOT com *---* It is UNLAWFUL to send unsolicited commercial email to this email address per United States Code Title 47 Sec. 227. I assess a fee of $500.00 US currency for reading and deleting such unsolicited commercial email. Sending such email to this address denotes acceptance of these terms. My posting messages to Usenet neither grants consent to receive unsolicited commercial email nor is intended to solicit commercial email. ** DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Politically Correct Jesus
-Caveat Lector-
In a message dated 99-12-14 15:13:01 EST, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
>Let me ask you this ... if there are not manuscripts and or written notes
>and or notations, who did the King James Committee copy their works from?
>It is my understanding that there are five copies of the Septuagint in
>various hands over the world. I've seen one copy with my own eyes about 20
>years ago. These seem to reflect what is written, to the "T", in what is
>commonly called the King James Bible.
The KJV translators did not rely on the Septuagint, which is a
frequently iffy Greek translation of ONLY the Old Testament, often
disagreeing with the Hebrew original.
(And I just happen to have on my shelves the full text of the Septuagint in
the original, and a word-for-word literal translation into English, plus a
concordance for its Greek.)
The Septuagint as it has come down to us includes numerous textual
interpolations --made apparently by early Greek-speaking Christians-- and
deliberate MIS-translations of the Hebrew found without exception in OLDER
texts of the Old Testament.
The KJV committee used the "Textus Receptus," a combination of the five
most authoritative MSS. of the NEW Testament [in existence up to the 16th
Century, that is -- more were found LATER in history] in Greek, compiled by
Dutch churchman Erasmus a century before, and the canonic ("Masoretic") text
of the OLD Testament in HEBREW.
Along with more than a little guidance in noting how St Jerome far
earlier translated both of those languages into Latin ...
Read (especially the closing sections) what the KJV translators
THEMSELVES explained in their OWN Preface:
http://www4.autoelect.com/BKJ/preface.htm
And for a look at the occasionally "unholy," crudely POLITICAL "hidden
agenda" of the overseers of King James' translation, and of some of the chief
translators, see:
http://www.dtl.org/versions/article/king-james.htm
DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.
Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.
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Re: [CTRL] Politically Correct Jesus
-Caveat Lector- In a message dated 99-12-14 14:08:00 EST, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: >This is also why historians often disagree about the authenticity of Paul's >writings, and often renounce his writings, because the handwriting varies >in more than one copy of the manuscript notations. Beg to differ. No manuscript of any book in the New Testament is --or ever was, in historical times-- in the "author's" own hand. All were copies of copies of copies, ad infinitum, of scribes. Also, historians dispute the authenticity of several of "Paul's" writings not because of any graphological differences but because of rather glaring differences in the criteria used for determining authorship -- vocabulary, grammar, mode of exposition, in short "style." Shakespeare did not write or think like Hemingway. For my next two cents, I've read all the best scholarly studies of Paul, and the honest conclusion is that no one knows what Paul's "defect" was. There aren't any "outside" sources in history, even in the Church, that described his appearance. All we have to work with is the internal evidence Paul himself gives in his writings, and those are not specific at all, beyond references to some "thorn in his side," physically or behaviorally, which tended to disrupt his self-control, leading to results he considered "sinful." The consensus is that, IF it even WAS a PHYSICAL problem, it may have been epilepsy. DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Politically Correct Jesus
-Caveat Lector- In a message dated 99-12-14 13:52:52 EST, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: >Actually, there is a sort of underground tradition, mostly in the later New >Testament apocrypha, that Jesus was in fact an ugly man ... That tradition seems to have originated with one of the seldom-quoted Old Testament "prophecies" regarding the coming of the Messiah, therein called, I believe, the "man of sorrows." When correctly translated from the original Hebrew, it describes him as a man totally lacking in physical attractveness, even ugly, AND as socially rejected for his appearance, like a thorn among roses or whatever. (It's been treated as "just a metaphor" by Christians who know of it, but the description in context is a literal one, and, apart from the desire to make the Savior one of the "beautiful people," there's no other reason to doubt it being a simple statement of fact. To sidestep the implications of that conclusion, in fact, some Biblicists even resort to a Talmudic sleight of hand, claiming that "prophecy" refers not to the One Yet to Come but to MOSES long ago. My OWN understanding, for what it's worth, is that it refers to NEITHER and is not a "prophecy" at all but describes an historic person, a "failed" Messiah ca. 400 BC.) If no one else comes forward first with the passage in question, which I seem to recall is found in Second Isaiah, I'll look it up when I have more time and post it here myself. DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Politically Correct Jesus
-Caveat Lector- --- Eagle 1 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > -Caveat Lector- > > Let me ask you this Kris, if there are not manuscripts and or > written notes > and or notations, who did the King James Committee copy their works > from? > It is my understanding that there are five copies of the Septuagint > in > various hands over the world. The Septuagint is only the Old Testament. No New Testament MSS exist that date prior to the reign of Diocletian, who ordered all Christian documents destroyed. Constantine, after his conversion to Christianity/Sol Invictus monotheism, commissioned new documents. __ Do You Yahoo!? Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. All in one place. Yahoo! Shopping: http://shopping.yahoo.com DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Politically Correct Jesus
-Caveat Lector- I thought that the reason Paul used an amanuensis was that *everyone* used an amanuensis then and there. Kris, no, there are no actual Pauline manuscripts, but if you read New Testament Greek, you realize quite rapidly that Paul's letters read like transcripts of someone thinking out loud: run-on sentences, sentences cut off in mid-thought, long stretches of near-stream-of-consciousness. There are a lot of places where material has obviously been inserted at a later point, obviously to bolster official Church doctrine; these passages are never in the same style as the "original" Pauline material. You can disagree with the doctrine, but as I read Paul's letters, both in Greek and in English translation (I prefer the New Revised Standard Version), I find a real *person* emerging, someone who dictates at white heat, striding back and forth, rattling off his ideas faster than anyone can possibly write them down. IMO, Paul was a real person, whose personality survives very clearly in his letters. > -Original Message- > From: Kris Millegan [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > Sent: Tuesday, December 14, 1999 2:58 PM > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subject: Re: [CTRL] Politically Correct Jesus > > -Caveat Lector- > > In a message dated 12/14/99 11:08:00 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > > >This is why he had others write for him so often, such as Luke and > Timothy. > >This is also why historians often disagree about the authenticity of > Paul's > >writings, and often renounce his writings, because the handwriting > varies > >in more than one copy of the manuscript notations. > > There are the actual manuscripts of Pauline letters available? > > Om > k > > DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Politically Correct Jesus
-Caveat Lector- Lighten up, Eagle - I'm quite sure that this was a joking reference to your use of the term 'handwriting'; I know that no one here thinks we have an ORIGINAL manuscript, one that Paul himself penned - - - AmPat > -Original Message- > From: Eagle 1 [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > Sent: Tuesday, December 14, 1999 2:14 PM > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subject: Re: [CTRL] Politically Correct Jesus > > > -Caveat Lector- > > Let me ask you this Kris, if there are not manuscripts and > or written notes > and or notations, who did the King James Committee copy > their works from? > It is my understanding that there are five copies of the Septuagint in > various hands over the world. I've seen one copy with my own > eyes about 20 > years ago. These seem to reflect what is written, to the > "T", in what is > commonly called the King James Bible. Where other > translators got their > translations or transliterations, I cannot say. > > However, I do not believe that this work we have come to > call the Bible is > merely a collection of simple hand-me-down hagadah's, but > rather it is a > documentable and historical reference regarding the tribes of > the Hebrews > and their migrations from Adam and Eve until we end with > John's writings of > the Messiah's Revealings - the Revelation. The original > recordings are > mostly obtainable, or at least viewable. If you want a more > exact resource, > give me a couple of weeks, since I have to work through and > including New > Year's Day, and I'll give you a documentable resource of > where you can go > to view, or where you can obtain a copy of these same > documents I viewed. > > I believe that they are available. I do not believe, > however, that they > are all in manuscript / coptic form, as you may think of the > "Dead Sea > Scrolls". > > eagle 1 > > - Original Message - > From: "Kris Millegan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Sent: Tuesday, December 14, 1999 1:57 PM > Subject: Re: [CTRL] Politically Correct Jesus > > > > -Caveat Lector- > > > > In a message dated 12/14/99 11:08:00 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > > > > >This is why he had others write for him so often, such as Luke and > Timothy. > > >This is also why historians often disagree about the > authenticity of > Paul's > > >writings, and often renounce his writings, because the handwriting > varies > > >in more than one copy of the manuscript notations. > > > > There are the actual manuscripts of Pauline letters available? > > > > Om > > k > > DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER > == > CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. > Proselyzting propagandic > screeds are not allowed. Substance-not soapboxing! These are > sordid matters > and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, > misdirections and outright > frauds is used politically by different groups with major > and minor effects > spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That > being said, CTRL > gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always > suggests to readers; > be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to > Holocaust denial and > nazi's need not apply. > > Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. > == > == > Archives Available at: > http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html > > http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ > == > == > To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: > SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: > SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Om > DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Politically Correct Jesus
-Caveat Lector- Let me ask you this Kris, if there are not manuscripts and or written notes and or notations, who did the King James Committee copy their works from? It is my understanding that there are five copies of the Septuagint in various hands over the world. I've seen one copy with my own eyes about 20 years ago. These seem to reflect what is written, to the "T", in what is commonly called the King James Bible. Where other translators got their translations or transliterations, I cannot say. However, I do not believe that this work we have come to call the Bible is merely a collection of simple hand-me-down hagadah's, but rather it is a documentable and historical reference regarding the tribes of the Hebrews and their migrations from Adam and Eve until we end with John's writings of the Messiah's Revealings - the Revelation. The original recordings are mostly obtainable, or at least viewable. If you want a more exact resource, give me a couple of weeks, since I have to work through and including New Year's Day, and I'll give you a documentable resource of where you can go to view, or where you can obtain a copy of these same documents I viewed. I believe that they are available. I do not believe, however, that they are all in manuscript / coptic form, as you may think of the "Dead Sea Scrolls". eagle 1 - Original Message - From: "Kris Millegan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Tuesday, December 14, 1999 1:57 PM Subject: Re: [CTRL] Politically Correct Jesus > -Caveat Lector- > > In a message dated 12/14/99 11:08:00 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > > >This is why he had others write for him so often, such as Luke and Timothy. > >This is also why historians often disagree about the authenticity of Paul's > >writings, and often renounce his writings, because the handwriting varies > >in more than one copy of the manuscript notations. > > There are the actual manuscripts of Pauline letters available? > > Om > k DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Politically Correct Jesus
-Caveat Lector- In a message dated 12/14/99 11:08:00 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: >This is why he had others write for him so often, such as Luke and Timothy. >This is also why historians often disagree about the authenticity of Paul's >writings, and often renounce his writings, because the handwriting varies >in more than one copy of the manuscript notations. There are the actual manuscripts of Pauline letters available? Om k DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Politically Correct Jesus
-Caveat Lector- Hello Robert, I've been quoted almost the exact thing you wrote... about Jesus & Paul, from my estranged dad who is a Mason, first and above all other things. (The fact that he believes this from Masonic folklore, to me, says enough). I happen to disagree with that opinion, both about Jesus and Paul, and leave it on that step. I would rather follow the Biblically historical facts that show an entirely different point of view. In historical records, it is noted that Paul was not lame but rather nearly, if not completely, blind. This is why he had others write for him so often, such as Luke and Timothy. This is also why historians often disagree about the authenticity of Paul's writings, and often renounce his writings, because the handwriting varies in more than one copy of the manuscript notations. eagle 1 - Original Message - From: "Tatman, Robert" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Tuesday, December 14, 1999 12:52 PM Subject: Re: [CTRL] Politically Correct Jesus > -Caveat Lector- > > Actually, there is a sort of underground tradition, mostly in the later New > Testament apocrypha, that Jesus was in fact an ugly man with one twisted > leg. Paul is also reported to have been a cripple, possibly bow-legged from > rickets; note that while *Paulos* has no specific meaning in Greek, one > meaning of its Latin homonym *paulus* is "lame". > > > -Original Message- > > From: Tenorlove [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > > Sent: Tuesday, December 14, 1999 10:58 AM > > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Subject: Re: [CTRL] Politically Correct Jesus > > > > -Caveat Lector- > > > > --- YnrChyldzWyld <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > > > > More of a chance of him looking like Arafat than Allen... > > > > > > > If that's the case, Jesus would truly have my pity, 'cause Arafat is > > ONE PLUG UGLY DUDE! > > > > DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER > == > CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic > screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters > and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright > frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects > spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL > gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; > be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and > nazi's need not apply. > > Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. > > Archives Available at: > http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html > > http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ > > To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: > SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: > SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Om DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Politically Correct Jesus
-Caveat Lector- Actually, there is a sort of underground tradition, mostly in the later New Testament apocrypha, that Jesus was in fact an ugly man with one twisted leg. Paul is also reported to have been a cripple, possibly bow-legged from rickets; note that while *Paulos* has no specific meaning in Greek, one meaning of its Latin homonym *paulus* is "lame". > -Original Message- > From: Tenorlove [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > Sent: Tuesday, December 14, 1999 10:58 AM > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subject: Re: [CTRL] Politically Correct Jesus > > -Caveat Lector- > > --- YnrChyldzWyld <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > More of a chance of him looking like Arafat than Allen... > > > > If that's the case, Jesus would truly have my pity, 'cause Arafat is > ONE PLUG UGLY DUDE! > DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Politically Correct Jesus
-Caveat Lector- Hello Terry, They've already tried to clone the stains on the shroud. So far, no luck. But, then again, there are prominent groups who have significant proof that the shroud is bogus. WHO really knows? Carbon dating isn't always so reliable. You can see an article about the shroud though, at http://www.shroud.com/ As far as Jesus with dark complexion? Who really knows? His body was never found. And really, what does it matter what color his skin was? However, if we follow the heritage, his skin was most likely what we know today as European caucasian. Tracing the skin color isn't that difficult. Jesus' claimed ancestry is directly from Adam, which the word Adam in Hebrew means "ruddy complected" or "able to show blood in the face". It tells us really nothing more. If you follow the Biblical historical record, his mother was Jewish and of the Levites. Chances are most likely he was fair complected. Regardless. Those who are considered "Arabic" or dark complected, are technically from the premature liason of Abraham with the bond woman, which produced and whose descendants are of Ishmael, not the sons (descendants) of Isaac. Historically, it can all be proven by Biblical history, for those who are willing to do the research, and not listen to what some man says about it. eagle 1 http://www.lambsheart.com - Original Message - From: "Terry Trainor" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Tuesday, December 14, 1999 7:07 AM Subject: Re: [CTRL] Politically Correct Jesus > -Caveat Lector- > > I would agree with the dark complexion; probably look like > someone that would not be allowed to sit at the front of > the bus in the 60's. > > As soon as some idiot clones from blood stains on the shroud, I guess > we'll know for sure, huh? > > :^) > > AmPat > > > -Original Message- > > From: YnrChyldzWyld [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > > Sent: Tuesday, December 14, 1999 7:01 AM > > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Subject: Re: [CTRL] Politically Correct Jesus > > > > > > -Caveat Lector- > > > > >The TRUTH is that Jesus probably looked like Woody Allen without > > >glasses. Or perhaps, Gene Wilder. Or, if Christians are > > really lucky, > > >Bernard Schwartz a.k.a. Tony Curtis. > > > > The TRUTH is that Jesus would probably NOT have looked like > > the men you > > mentioned, who are of European ancestry (albeit Judaic), rather Jesus > > probably looked just like any other modern > > Palestinian...which means he > > was NOT blond-haired and blue-eyed, but of a somewhat dark > > complexion... > > > > More of a chance of him looking like Arafat than Allen... > > > > > > June ;-) DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Politically Correct Jesus
-Caveat Lector- --- YnrChyldzWyld <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > More of a chance of him looking like Arafat than Allen... > If that's the case, Jesus would truly have my pity, 'cause Arafat is ONE PLUG UGLY DUDE! __ Do You Yahoo!? Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. All in one place. Yahoo! Shopping: http://shopping.yahoo.com DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Politically Correct Jesus
-Caveat Lector- I would agree with the dark complexion; probably look like someone that would not be allowed to sit at the front of the bus in the 60's. As soon as some idiot clones from blood stains on the shroud, I guess we'll know for sure, huh? :^) AmPat > -Original Message- > From: YnrChyldzWyld [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > Sent: Tuesday, December 14, 1999 7:01 AM > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subject: Re: [CTRL] Politically Correct Jesus > > > -Caveat Lector- > > >The TRUTH is that Jesus probably looked like Woody Allen without > >glasses. Or perhaps, Gene Wilder. Or, if Christians are > really lucky, > >Bernard Schwartz a.k.a. Tony Curtis. > > The TRUTH is that Jesus would probably NOT have looked like > the men you > mentioned, who are of European ancestry (albeit Judaic), rather Jesus > probably looked just like any other modern > Palestinian...which means he > was NOT blond-haired and blue-eyed, but of a somewhat dark > complexion... > > More of a chance of him looking like Arafat than Allen... > > > June ;-) > > |===SEASONS===GREETINGS==| > | \ /| > | *~o) )_ )_ )_ )_ - * - | > | |`--) , ,_),_),_),_/ / \| > | ``^^^`` /~\/~\/~\/~\| > || > | / / / | | > | \ / (((((( -+- | > | - * -.-#--..-#-..--#-. | | > | /|\/__\ /_\ /__\ /-\ | > |__//|\\| [] [] || [] [] || [] [] |___/---\___ldb__| > > artist -SheDragon (Laura) (ldb) > > *- > --* > revcoal AT connix DOT com > *- > --* > It is UNLAWFUL to send unsolicited commercial email to this email > address per United States Code Title 47 Sec. 227. I assess a fee of > $500.00 US currency for reading and deleting such > unsolicited commercial > email. Sending such email to this address denotes > acceptance of these > terms. My posting messages to Usenet neither grants consent > to receive > unsolicited commercial email nor is intended to solicit commercial > email. > *= > ===* > > DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER > == > CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. > Proselyzting propagandic > screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are > sordid matters > and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, > misdirections and outright > frauds is used politically by different groups with major > and minor effects > spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That > being said, CTRL > gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always > suggests to readers; > be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to > Holocaust denial and > nazi's need not apply. > > Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. > == > == > Archives Available at: > http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html > > http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ > == > == > To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: > SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: > SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Om > DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Politically Correct Jesus
-Caveat Lector- >The TRUTH is that Jesus probably looked like Woody Allen without >glasses. Or perhaps, Gene Wilder. Or, if Christians are really lucky, >Bernard Schwartz a.k.a. Tony Curtis. The TRUTH is that Jesus would probably NOT have looked like the men you mentioned, who are of European ancestry (albeit Judaic), rather Jesus probably looked just like any other modern Palestinian...which means he was NOT blond-haired and blue-eyed, but of a somewhat dark complexion... More of a chance of him looking like Arafat than Allen... June ;-) |===SEASONS===GREETINGS==| | \ /| | *~o) )_ )_ )_ )_ - * - | | |`--) , ,_),_),_),_/ / \| | ``^^^`` /~\/~\/~\/~\| || | / / / | | | \ / (((((( -+- | | - * -.-#--..-#-..--#-. | | | /|\/__\ /_\ /__\ /-\ | |__//|\\| [] [] || [] [] || [] [] |___/---\___ldb__| artist -SheDragon (Laura) (ldb) *---* revcoal AT connix DOT com *---* It is UNLAWFUL to send unsolicited commercial email to this email address per United States Code Title 47 Sec. 227. I assess a fee of $500.00 US currency for reading and deleting such unsolicited commercial email. Sending such email to this address denotes acceptance of these terms. My posting messages to Usenet neither grants consent to receive unsolicited commercial email nor is intended to solicit commercial email. ** DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Politically Correct Jesus
-Caveat Lector- In a message dated 99-12-13 18:03:51 EST, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: >The TRUTH is that Jesus probably looked like Woody Allen without glasses. >Or perhaps, Gene Wilder. Or, if Christians are really lucky, Bernard Schwartz >a.k.a. Tony Curtis. Personally, I like the unprepossessing face imprinted on the Shroud of Turin. DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Politically Correct Jesus
-Caveat Lector- I heard he had red hair and green eyes.. Peter We are about to go on a Journey. All Aboard http://sites.netscape.net/gsussnzl/poleshift - Original Message - From: Nurev Ind Research <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Tuesday, December 14, 1999 12:05 PM Subject: Re: [CTRL] Politically Correct Jesus > -Caveat Lector- > > Das GOAT wrote: > > > > -Caveat Lector- > > > > Updated Jesus Image Has Dark Skin > > > > By DAVID CRARY > > .c The Associated Press > > > > NEW YORK (AP) - A painting of a dark-skinned Jesus, by an artist who used a > > woman as a model, has been selected by a Catholic publication as the winner > > of its contest to update the image of Christ for the new millennium. > > > > The painting, ``Jesus of the People,'' was selected from nearly 1,700 entries > > for the cover of a special millennium issue being published this week by the > > National Catholic Reporter, an independent newsweekly and one of the > > best-known Catholic publications in the country. > > > > ``My goal was to be as inclusive as possible,'' said the artist, Janet > > McKenzie, from her studio in Island Pond, Vt. ``At first glance, he is a > > black or African-American Jesus, but looking more deeply you see many people > > in it.'' > > > > The painting shows a robed and haloed Jesus. Against a pale pink background > > are a yin-yang symbol, intended to represent perfect balance, and a feather, > > symbolizing the American Indian spirituality that McKenzie learned about > > during a stay in New Mexico. > > > > The painting ``is a haunting image of a peasant Jesus - dark, thick-lipped, > > looking out on us with ineffable dignity, with sadness but with confidence,'' > > wrote Sister Wendy Beckett, the 69-year-old British nun and host of a public > > television series about art. She selected the winner and three runners-up. > > > > In the view of one of the judges, Sherry Lynn Best, who directs an art > > gallery at Rockhurst University: ``It's not real masculine. It's not real > > feminine. It's not really androgynous, either.'' > > > > Contestants in 19 countries, ranging from children to prominent graphic > > designers, submitted entries that a three-member jury winnowed to 10 > > finalists. > > > > The contest was conceived by the National Catholic Reporter's editor, Michael > > Farrell, who had hoped it would produce a provocative winner. > > > > ``If everybody looks at it and says, `Very nice,' that means it will have > > failed,'' he said. ``Every new work of art that has been worth anything has > > been controversial when it first appeared.'' > > > > McKenzie, who wins a $2,000 first prize, describes herself as a ``devout > > agnostic'' with an interest in many faiths. She has devoted much of her work > > to images of strong, spiritual women. > > > > Her Jesus, she said, was intended to be a masculine presence, but she sought > > to add subtly a feminine dimension by using a woman as a model. > > > > ``This painting is about love,'' she said. ``It's about reminding all of us > > about the importance of celebrating our differences.'' > > > > The judges who reviewed the entries said they were struck by the variety: > > abstract designs, computer graphics, Jesus as a homeless person, Jesus in > > outer space cradling the Earth, a Jesus with superhero biceps. > > > > ``I think Jesus would have liked this contest,'' said one of the judges, > > Pattie Wigand Sporrong of Catholic Theological Union in Chicago. ``It didn't > > have a lot of boundaries and barriers.'' > > > > McKenzie, 51, is a Brooklyn native who moved to Vermont in 1976. Her base is > > Island Pond, a small town in the sparsely populated northeastern corner of > > the state where she sometimes paints 12 hours at a stretch in the wing of a > > 135-year-old house. > > > > ```Jesus of the People' simply came through me,'' McKenzie said. ``I feel as > > though I am only a vehicle for its existence.'' > > > > The 50,000-circulation National Catholic Reporter, based in Kansas City, Mo., > > and founded in 1964, has taken pride in its independence, its support for > > ecumenical reforms and its willingness to provoke debate. > > > > Farrell, in a column in the new issue, predicted the choice of ``Jesus of the > > People'' would carry on that tr
Re: [CTRL] Politically Correct Jesus
-Caveat Lector- According to a routine by comedy group Travesty Limited, from the late 70s: God (to Jesus, before sending him to earth): Whenever they paint your picture, you're gonna look like a gay Norwegian. Jesus: What'll I really look like? God: Frank Zappa! Jesus: What's my name gonna be? God: Jesus. Jesus: I'll be Puerto Rican? God: No, Jewish. Jesus (after screaming): Ok, as long as I don't have to go to the Middle East... Chances are better than average that he had dark hair and eyes. I have other ideas about this, but don't know how to express them without revealing some personal information that I'm not comfortable discussing on the Internet. Tenorlove confused __ Do You Yahoo!? Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. All in one place. Yahoo! Shopping: http://shopping.yahoo.com DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Politically Correct Jesus
-Caveat Lector- Das GOAT wrote: > > -Caveat Lector- > > Updated Jesus Image Has Dark Skin > > By DAVID CRARY > .c The Associated Press > > NEW YORK (AP) - A painting of a dark-skinned Jesus, by an artist who used a > woman as a model, has been selected by a Catholic publication as the winner > of its contest to update the image of Christ for the new millennium. > > The painting, ``Jesus of the People,'' was selected from nearly 1,700 entries > for the cover of a special millennium issue being published this week by the > National Catholic Reporter, an independent newsweekly and one of the > best-known Catholic publications in the country. > > ``My goal was to be as inclusive as possible,'' said the artist, Janet > McKenzie, from her studio in Island Pond, Vt. ``At first glance, he is a > black or African-American Jesus, but looking more deeply you see many people > in it.'' > > The painting shows a robed and haloed Jesus. Against a pale pink background > are a yin-yang symbol, intended to represent perfect balance, and a feather, > symbolizing the American Indian spirituality that McKenzie learned about > during a stay in New Mexico. > > The painting ``is a haunting image of a peasant Jesus - dark, thick-lipped, > looking out on us with ineffable dignity, with sadness but with confidence,'' > wrote Sister Wendy Beckett, the 69-year-old British nun and host of a public > television series about art. She selected the winner and three runners-up. > > In the view of one of the judges, Sherry Lynn Best, who directs an art > gallery at Rockhurst University: ``It's not real masculine. It's not real > feminine. It's not really androgynous, either.'' > > Contestants in 19 countries, ranging from children to prominent graphic > designers, submitted entries that a three-member jury winnowed to 10 > finalists. > > The contest was conceived by the National Catholic Reporter's editor, Michael > Farrell, who had hoped it would produce a provocative winner. > > ``If everybody looks at it and says, `Very nice,' that means it will have > failed,'' he said. ``Every new work of art that has been worth anything has > been controversial when it first appeared.'' > > McKenzie, who wins a $2,000 first prize, describes herself as a ``devout > agnostic'' with an interest in many faiths. She has devoted much of her work > to images of strong, spiritual women. > > Her Jesus, she said, was intended to be a masculine presence, but she sought > to add subtly a feminine dimension by using a woman as a model. > > ``This painting is about love,'' she said. ``It's about reminding all of us > about the importance of celebrating our differences.'' > > The judges who reviewed the entries said they were struck by the variety: > abstract designs, computer graphics, Jesus as a homeless person, Jesus in > outer space cradling the Earth, a Jesus with superhero biceps. > > ``I think Jesus would have liked this contest,'' said one of the judges, > Pattie Wigand Sporrong of Catholic Theological Union in Chicago. ``It didn't > have a lot of boundaries and barriers.'' > > McKenzie, 51, is a Brooklyn native who moved to Vermont in 1976. Her base is > Island Pond, a small town in the sparsely populated northeastern corner of > the state where she sometimes paints 12 hours at a stretch in the wing of a > 135-year-old house. > > ```Jesus of the People' simply came through me,'' McKenzie said. ``I feel as > though I am only a vehicle for its existence.'' > > The 50,000-circulation National Catholic Reporter, based in Kansas City, Mo., > and founded in 1964, has taken pride in its independence, its support for > ecumenical reforms and its willingness to provoke debate. > > Farrell, in a column in the new issue, predicted the choice of ``Jesus of the > People'' would carry on that tradition. > > ``We got a strong impression that the era of the blond, blue-eyed Jesus is > over,'' he wrote. ``When the church was overwhelmingly a Western institution, > we made Jesus in our likeness. ... This work of art may be prophetic of where > and how Christianity will flourish in the next millennium or two.'' Ahh ha ha ha ha ha haha ha ha . Next decade, when the Koreans and other Asians trade in their heritage for Western superstitions, Jesus will have slanted eyes and a yellowish tinge. The TRUTH is that Jesus probably looked like Woody Allen without glasses. Or perhaps, Gene Wilder. Or, if Christians are really lucky, Bernard Schwartz a.k.a. Tony Curtis. Joshua2 DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be
[CTRL] Politically Correct Jesus
-Caveat Lector- Some one sent a web site the other day that had the image of Diana as Madonna. Could whoever did that please do it again? Thanks DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
[CTRL] Politically Correct Jesus
-Caveat Lector- Updated Jesus Image Has Dark Skin By DAVID CRARY .c The Associated Press NEW YORK (AP) - A painting of a dark-skinned Jesus, by an artist who used a woman as a model, has been selected by a Catholic publication as the winner of its contest to update the image of Christ for the new millennium. The painting, ``Jesus of the People,'' was selected from nearly 1,700 entries for the cover of a special millennium issue being published this week by the National Catholic Reporter, an independent newsweekly and one of the best-known Catholic publications in the country. ``My goal was to be as inclusive as possible,'' said the artist, Janet McKenzie, from her studio in Island Pond, Vt. ``At first glance, he is a black or African-American Jesus, but looking more deeply you see many people in it.'' The painting shows a robed and haloed Jesus. Against a pale pink background are a yin-yang symbol, intended to represent perfect balance, and a feather, symbolizing the American Indian spirituality that McKenzie learned about during a stay in New Mexico. The painting ``is a haunting image of a peasant Jesus - dark, thick-lipped, looking out on us with ineffable dignity, with sadness but with confidence,'' wrote Sister Wendy Beckett, the 69-year-old British nun and host of a public television series about art. She selected the winner and three runners-up. In the view of one of the judges, Sherry Lynn Best, who directs an art gallery at Rockhurst University: ``It's not real masculine. It's not real feminine. It's not really androgynous, either.'' Contestants in 19 countries, ranging from children to prominent graphic designers, submitted entries that a three-member jury winnowed to 10 finalists. The contest was conceived by the National Catholic Reporter's editor, Michael Farrell, who had hoped it would produce a provocative winner. ``If everybody looks at it and says, `Very nice,' that means it will have failed,'' he said. ``Every new work of art that has been worth anything has been controversial when it first appeared.'' McKenzie, who wins a $2,000 first prize, describes herself as a ``devout agnostic'' with an interest in many faiths. She has devoted much of her work to images of strong, spiritual women. Her Jesus, she said, was intended to be a masculine presence, but she sought to add subtly a feminine dimension by using a woman as a model. ``This painting is about love,'' she said. ``It's about reminding all of us about the importance of celebrating our differences.'' The judges who reviewed the entries said they were struck by the variety: abstract designs, computer graphics, Jesus as a homeless person, Jesus in outer space cradling the Earth, a Jesus with superhero biceps. ``I think Jesus would have liked this contest,'' said one of the judges, Pattie Wigand Sporrong of Catholic Theological Union in Chicago. ``It didn't have a lot of boundaries and barriers.'' McKenzie, 51, is a Brooklyn native who moved to Vermont in 1976. Her base is Island Pond, a small town in the sparsely populated northeastern corner of the state where she sometimes paints 12 hours at a stretch in the wing of a 135-year-old house. ```Jesus of the People' simply came through me,'' McKenzie said. ``I feel as though I am only a vehicle for its existence.'' The 50,000-circulation National Catholic Reporter, based in Kansas City, Mo., and founded in 1964, has taken pride in its independence, its support for ecumenical reforms and its willingness to provoke debate. Farrell, in a column in the new issue, predicted the choice of ``Jesus of the People'' would carry on that tradition. ``We got a strong impression that the era of the blond, blue-eyed Jesus is over,'' he wrote. ``When the church was overwhelmingly a Western institution, we made Jesus in our likeness. ... This work of art may be prophetic of where and how Christianity will flourish in the next millennium or two.'' EDITOR'S NOTE: More information about the contest can be obtained from the National Catholic Reporter's Web site, www.natcath.com. DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory
