Re: Iggdrasil, a new amazing screenreader

[the-official-samsung-cow!]

m, cow, do you moo?

On 09/01/2022 16:16, batman wrote:


high, I am batman, wlcome to gothum city

On 30/12/2021 15:56, Jordan Livesey wrote:
I don't have to tell you this but for the last time, slackware isn't 
easy to use nore is anything based on slackware, which is why it 
doesn't support secure boot also, that is why debian is better


On Thu, Dec 30, 2021 at 3:54 PM D.J.J. Ring, Jr.  wrote:

And I just stated that Slint was amazingly accessible,
accessibility also means easy to use. Slint has the features, at
least with additional screen readers, already installed, easy to
switch on with a well documented script named "speak-with".

That's not a war or any reason for a war, it's just a compliment.

I love Debian, although I'd like to install the 10.1 from the
installation media and have sound while doing so. I understand
it's just my hardware not everyone else's. I'm still trying to
figure out the cause, but with multiple problems it's difficult,
but I can run Debian 10.1 as root, but I don't want to! So I'll
uninstall and reinstall Debian 9.

There seems to be someone else who is flooding the list with
nonsense which should stop.

Samuel, I stand by my statement, accessibility is not only
ability to be used, but ease of use, but that wasn't and never
should be a call for a war, which is what only you have mentioned.

There, I said it. I never mentioned a war, I never called for
one, I simply said that it's easier to access accessibility
features in Slint, especially true for the newcomer. A
compliment, not a wish for war.

Best wishes,

David



On Thu, Dec 30, 2021, 06:20 Samuel Thibault
 wrote:

Didier Spaier, le jeu. 30 déc. 2021 10:32:24 +0100, a ecrit:
> On 30/12/2021 08:10, Samuel Thibault wrote:
> > You also have the same choice on other distributions such
as Debian.
> >
> > Please don't fall in a distro war, we don't need that.
>
> Well Samuel, you quoted me out of context, I am not the one
who started the war.

I didn't quote you, I quoted D.J.J. Ring.

Samuel

Re: Iggdrasil, a new amazing screenreader

[Samuel Thibault]

Hello,

I can only repeat myself.

Samuel Thibault, le ven. 31 déc. 2021 17:44:31 +0100, a ecrit:
> D.J.J. Ring, Jr., le ven. 31 déc. 2021 10:12:43 -0500, a ecrit:
> > The network-manager package should be installed by default to ANY 
> > installation
> 
> Well, not "any".
> 
> Again, that's where *discussion* needs to be done. And not here, but
> where such discussions belong: with the people who know about all the
> pros and cons of the various solutions. That is,
> debian-b...@lists.debian.org
> 
> I guess an answer to the concerns being raised is that we should
> have a "textual desktop" item in the list of tasks during debian
> installer. So that all desktop-like thingies such as network-manager get
> installed without having to install gnome or mate, without impacting all
> installations (embedded systems do not want desktop-like bloat).
> 
> Again, I'd really like *not* to have to raise such discussions myself on
> debian-boot. Again, such things should *not* rely on just one person.

Please people take up on the task. I just cannot do everything myself.

Samuel

Re: Iggdrasil, a new amazing screenreader

[john doe]

On 1/9/2022 7:57 PM, Jordan Livesey wrote:

like I said, this account is impersonating me



Than you should report it.

As far as I can tell, both of the e-mails are coming from the same host.

--
John Doe

Re: Iggdrasil, a new amazing screenreader

[Jordan Livesey]

like I said, this account is impersonating me

On Sun, Jan 9, 2022 at 6:56 PM Jude DaShiell  wrote:

> If I agreed with you, both of us would be wrong.
>
>
> On Sun, 9 Jan 2022, batman wrote:
>
> > high, I am batman, wlcome to gothum city
> >
> > On 30/12/2021 15:56, Jordan Livesey wrote:
> > > I don't have to tell you this but for the last time, slackware isn't
> easy to
> > > use nore is anything based on slackware, which is why it doesn't
> support
> > > secure boot also, that is why debian is better
> > >
> > > On Thu, Dec 30, 2021 at 3:54 PM D.J.J. Ring, Jr. 
> wrote:
> > >
> > > And I just stated that Slint was amazingly accessible,
> > > accessibility also means easy to use. Slint has the features, at
> > > least with additional screen readers, already installed, easy to
> > > switch on with a well documented script named "speak-with".
> > >
> > > That's not a war or any reason for a war, it's just a compliment.
> > >
> > > I love Debian, although I'd like to install the 10.1 from the
> > > installation media and have sound while doing so. I understand
> > > it's just my hardware not everyone else's. I'm still trying to
> > > figure out the cause, but with multiple problems it's difficult,
> > > but I can run Debian 10.1 as root, but I don't want to! So I'll
> > > uninstall and reinstall Debian 9.
> > >
> > > There seems to be someone else who is flooding the list with
> > > nonsense which should stop.
> > >
> > > Samuel, I stand by my statement, accessibility is not only ability
> > > to be used, but ease of use, but that wasn't and never should be a
> > > call for a war, which is what only you have mentioned.
> > >
> > > There, I said it. I never mentioned a war, I never called for one,
> > > I simply said that it's easier to access accessibility features in
> > > Slint, especially true for the newcomer. A compliment, not a wish
> > > for war.
> > >
> > > Best wishes,
> > >
> > > David
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On Thu, Dec 30, 2021, 06:20 Samuel Thibault 
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > Didier Spaier, le jeu. 30 d?c. 2021 10:32:24 +0100, a ecrit:
> > > > On 30/12/2021 08:10, Samuel Thibault wrote:
> > > > > You also have the same choice on other distributions such
> > > as Debian.
> > > > >
> > > > > Please don't fall in a distro war, we don't need that.
> > > >
> > > > Well Samuel, you quoted me out of context, I am not the one
> > > who started the war.
> > >
> > > I didn't quote you, I quoted D.J.J. Ring.
> > >
> > > Samuel
> > >
> >
>

Re: Iggdrasil, a new amazing screenreader

[Jude DaShiell]

If I agreed with you, both of us would be wrong.


On Sun, 9 Jan 2022, batman wrote:

> high, I am batman, wlcome to gothum city
>
> On 30/12/2021 15:56, Jordan Livesey wrote:
> > I don't have to tell you this but for the last time, slackware isn't easy to
> > use nore is anything based on slackware, which is why it doesn't support
> > secure boot also, that is why debian is better
> >
> > On Thu, Dec 30, 2021 at 3:54 PM D.J.J. Ring, Jr.  wrote:
> >
> > And I just stated that Slint was amazingly accessible,
> > accessibility also means easy to use. Slint has the features, at
> > least with additional screen readers, already installed, easy to
> > switch on with a well documented script named "speak-with".
> >
> > That's not a war or any reason for a war, it's just a compliment.
> >
> > I love Debian, although I'd like to install the 10.1 from the
> > installation media and have sound while doing so. I understand
> > it's just my hardware not everyone else's. I'm still trying to
> > figure out the cause, but with multiple problems it's difficult,
> > but I can run Debian 10.1 as root, but I don't want to! So I'll
> > uninstall and reinstall Debian 9.
> >
> > There seems to be someone else who is flooding the list with
> > nonsense which should stop.
> >
> > Samuel, I stand by my statement, accessibility is not only ability
> > to be used, but ease of use, but that wasn't and never should be a
> > call for a war, which is what only you have mentioned.
> >
> > There, I said it. I never mentioned a war, I never called for one,
> > I simply said that it's easier to access accessibility features in
> > Slint, especially true for the newcomer. A compliment, not a wish
> > for war.
> >
> > Best wishes,
> >
> > David
> >
> >
> >
> > On Thu, Dec 30, 2021, 06:20 Samuel Thibault 
> > wrote:
> >
> > Didier Spaier, le jeu. 30 d?c. 2021 10:32:24 +0100, a ecrit:
> > > On 30/12/2021 08:10, Samuel Thibault wrote:
> > > > You also have the same choice on other distributions such
> > as Debian.
> > > >
> > > > Please don't fall in a distro war, we don't need that.
> > >
> > > Well Samuel, you quoted me out of context, I am not the one
> > who started the war.
> >
> > I didn't quote you, I quoted D.J.J. Ring.
> >
> > Samuel
> >
>

Re: Iggdrasil, a new amazing screenreader

[batman]

high, I am batman, wlcome to gothum city

On 30/12/2021 15:56, Jordan Livesey wrote:
I don't have to tell you this but for the last time, slackware isn't 
easy to use nore is anything based on slackware, which is why it 
doesn't support secure boot also, that is why debian is better


On Thu, Dec 30, 2021 at 3:54 PM D.J.J. Ring, Jr.  wrote:

And I just stated that Slint was amazingly accessible,
accessibility also means easy to use. Slint has the features, at
least with additional screen readers, already installed, easy to
switch on with a well documented script named "speak-with".

That's not a war or any reason for a war, it's just a compliment.

I love Debian, although I'd like to install the 10.1 from the
installation media and have sound while doing so. I understand
it's just my hardware not everyone else's. I'm still trying to
figure out the cause, but with multiple problems it's difficult,
but I can run Debian 10.1 as root, but I don't want to! So I'll
uninstall and reinstall Debian 9.

There seems to be someone else who is flooding the list with
nonsense which should stop.

Samuel, I stand by my statement, accessibility is not only ability
to be used, but ease of use, but that wasn't and never should be a
call for a war, which is what only you have mentioned.

There, I said it. I never mentioned a war, I never called for one,
I simply said that it's easier to access accessibility features in
Slint, especially true for the newcomer. A compliment, not a wish
for war.

Best wishes,

David



On Thu, Dec 30, 2021, 06:20 Samuel Thibault 
wrote:

Didier Spaier, le jeu. 30 déc. 2021 10:32:24 +0100, a ecrit:
> On 30/12/2021 08:10, Samuel Thibault wrote:
> > You also have the same choice on other distributions such
as Debian.
> >
> > Please don't fall in a distro war, we don't need that.
>
> Well Samuel, you quoted me out of context, I am not the one
who started the war.

I didn't quote you, I quoted D.J.J. Ring.

Samuel

Re: Tutorial wasRe: Iggdrasil, a new amazing screenreader

[James AUSTIN]

Hi John

Thanks very much for the info.

Always wishes

James

Sent from my iPhone

> On 1 Jan 2022, at 09:35, john doe  wrote:
> 
> On 12/31/2021 7:04 PM, James AUSTIN wrote:
>> I am wondering if there are any tutorials available to help someone set a 
>> system such as the one being discussed up from scratch. Well I can access 
>> the command line from a GUI I am reliant upon a graphical user interface 
>> being pre-installed with orca before I can use the command line.
>> 
>> Any pointers to tutorials to set this up from scratch from a blindness 
>> perspective it would be greatly appreciated.
>> 
> 
> Debian makes it easy to follow the "regular" documentation and the
> accessibility wiki details accessibility features!
> 
> You can simply 'Install Debian with speach' as usual but at the package
> selection prompt (see below) only enter '12' to only install 'Standard
> System Utilities':
> 
> "Software selection
> --
> 
> At the moment, only the core of the system is installed. To tune the
> system to
> your needs, you can choose to install one or more of the following
> predefined
> collections of software.
> Choose software to install:
>  1: Debian desktop environment [*],  7: ... MATE,
>  2: ... GNOME [*],   8: ... LXDE,
>  3: ... Xfce,9: ... LXQt,
>  4: ... GNOME Flashback,10: web server,
>  5: ... KDE Plasma, 11: SSH server,
>  6: ... Cinnamon,   12: standard system utilities [*],
> Prompt: '?' for help, default=1 2 12> 12"
> 
> 
> There is no need to do that to get the desired result though, see 'Case
> B. Permanently booting to text mode (console mode)' at (1):
> 
> - Graphical mode: 'systemctl set-default graphical.target'
> - Console mode: 'systemctl set-default multi-user.target'
> 
> Use 'systemctl reboot' to reboot after having executed one or the above
> command.
> 
> 
> CTRL + alt + f1 to f6 should also bring to the console.
> 
> 
> 1)
> https://www.linuxuprising.com/2020/01/how-to-boot-to-console-text-mode-in.html
> 
> --
> John Doe
> 

Re: Tutorial wasRe: Iggdrasil, a new amazing screenreader

[Jeffery Mewtamer]

While I think, "if the user chooses to install a desktop environment
during installation, it should come up automatically at boot" is a
reasonable default, I agree there should probably be an option in the
installer to make console login the default boot option, and if it
already exists in the expert mode, to migrate it to the standard
installer... And if the user installs multiple desktop environments,
there should probably be an option to pick which one comes up by
default, including a "none" option.

Also, a question of mailing list etiquette: Since Gmail and how this
list is configured forces me to manually edit the to field anyways
because the only reply to option are either the last respondent or
everyone in the coversation, with no "just the list" option, the
thought of adding Debian-boot to the to field crossed my mind, but I'm
not sure if bringing in another mailing list in the middle of a
conversation like that would be considered rude.

Re: Tutorial wasRe: Iggdrasil, a new amazing screenreader

[D.J.J. Ring, Jr.]

I have been hunting for a command that will bring up Debian in console mode
for over a year, I'm glad there is one and thanks for sending it along, but
again it's not accessible if just a very few know about it.  My opinion is
that this configuration should be part of the installer to ask how the
person wants the system to start, and tell them that to use the default
graphical user interface they will need to type "startx" in the console.


systemctl set-default multi-user.target

Thank you,

David (and I'm sure many others).

On Sat, Jan 1, 2022 at 4:35 AM john doe  wrote:

> On 12/31/2021 7:04 PM, James AUSTIN wrote:
> > I am wondering if there are any tutorials available to help someone set
> a system such as the one being discussed up from scratch. Well I can access
> the command line from a GUI I am reliant upon a graphical user interface
> being pre-installed with orca before I can use the command line.
> >
> > Any pointers to tutorials to set this up from scratch from a blindness
> perspective it would be greatly appreciated.
> >
>
> Debian makes it easy to follow the "regular" documentation and the
> accessibility wiki details accessibility features!
>
> You can simply 'Install Debian with speach' as usual but at the package
> selection prompt (see below) only enter '12' to only install 'Standard
> System Utilities':
>
> "Software selection
> --
>
> At the moment, only the core of the system is installed. To tune the
> system to
> your needs, you can choose to install one or more of the following
> predefined
> collections of software.
> Choose software to install:
>1: Debian desktop environment [*],  7: ... MATE,
>2: ... GNOME [*],   8: ... LXDE,
>3: ... Xfce,9: ... LXQt,
>4: ... GNOME Flashback,10: web server,
>5: ... KDE Plasma, 11: SSH server,
>6: ... Cinnamon,   12: standard system utilities [*],
> Prompt: '?' for help, default=1 2 12> 12"
>
>
> There is no need to do that to get the desired result though, see 'Case
> B. Permanently booting to text mode (console mode)' at (1):
>
> - Graphical mode: 'systemctl set-default graphical.target'
> - Console mode: 'systemctl set-default multi-user.target'
>
> Use 'systemctl reboot' to reboot after having executed one or the above
> command.
>
>
> CTRL + alt + f1 to f6 should also bring to the console.
>
>
> 1)
>
> https://www.linuxuprising.com/2020/01/how-to-boot-to-console-text-mode-in.html
>
> --
> John Doe
>
>

Re: Tutorial wasRe: Iggdrasil, a new amazing screenreader

[john doe]

On 12/31/2021 7:04 PM, James AUSTIN wrote:

I am wondering if there are any tutorials available to help someone set a 
system such as the one being discussed up from scratch. Well I can access the 
command line from a GUI I am reliant upon a graphical user interface being 
pre-installed with orca before I can use the command line.

Any pointers to tutorials to set this up from scratch from a blindness 
perspective it would be greatly appreciated.



Debian makes it easy to follow the "regular" documentation and the
accessibility wiki details accessibility features!

You can simply 'Install Debian with speach' as usual but at the package
selection prompt (see below) only enter '12' to only install 'Standard
System Utilities':

"Software selection
--

At the moment, only the core of the system is installed. To tune the
system to
your needs, you can choose to install one or more of the following
predefined
collections of software.
Choose software to install:
  1: Debian desktop environment [*],  7: ... MATE,
  2: ... GNOME [*],   8: ... LXDE,
  3: ... Xfce,9: ... LXQt,
  4: ... GNOME Flashback,10: web server,
  5: ... KDE Plasma, 11: SSH server,
  6: ... Cinnamon,   12: standard system utilities [*],
Prompt: '?' for help, default=1 2 12> 12"


There is no need to do that to get the desired result though, see 'Case
B. Permanently booting to text mode (console mode)' at (1):

- Graphical mode: 'systemctl set-default graphical.target'
- Console mode: 'systemctl set-default multi-user.target'

Use 'systemctl reboot' to reboot after having executed one or the above
command.


CTRL + alt + f1 to f6 should also bring to the console.


1)
https://www.linuxuprising.com/2020/01/how-to-boot-to-console-text-mode-in.html

--
John Doe

Re: Iggdrasil, a new amazing screenreader

[john doe]

On 12/31/2021 4:42 PM, D.J.J. Ring, Jr. wrote:

John,

You say in Mate we have other methods of configuring it.  I'm talking about
configuring it in console, even if MATE is installed.

What is that way of configuring,


In headless you can only use the console (see below).



In headless, there is no need to use nmcli to configure the network,
'systemd-network' '/etc/network/interfaces' are some possibilities.




--
John Doe

Re: Tutorial wasRe: Iggdrasil, a new amazing screenreader

[Jude DaShiell]

acbradio now has a youtube channel available for subscription too.


On Sat, 1 Jan 2022, Jeffery Mewtamer wrote:

> Following the link gives me an invalid certificate error in Firefox,
> ignoring the warning brings me to the so long message, but removing
> the s from https brings me to a page that says ACB Radio is now part
> of ACB Media and provides the following address to the new website:
>
> https://www.acbmedia.org/
>
>

Re: Tutorial wasRe: Iggdrasil, a new amazing screenreader

[Jeffery Mewtamer]

Following the link gives me an invalid certificate error in Firefox,
ignoring the warning brings me to the so long message, but removing
the s from https brings me to a page that says ACB Radio is now part
of ACB Media and provides the following address to the new website:

https://www.acbmedia.org/

Re: Tutorial wasRe: Iggdrasil, a new amazing screenreader

[Jude DaShiell]

The android program to download is acb link or by now maybe that's also
gone.


On Fri, 31 Dec 2021, D.J.J. Ring, Jr. wrote:

> It now says "so long" - I guess it's all gone.
>
> DR
>
> On Fri, Dec 31, 2021 at 6:19 PM Jude DaShiell  wrote:
>
> > https://www.acbradio.org/ is the starting point.  It's a radio station and
> > can be listened to on the internet and with android and iphone apps but
> > the current programs play.  The main menu channel is the one for technical
> > information and treasure trove has old-time radio programs.
> >
> >
> > On Fri, 31 Dec 2021, D.J.J. Ring, Jr. wrote:
> >
> > > Is this acbradio, a podcast, radio program, linux application, or what?
> > >
> > > acbradio has a main menu program and a large archive of programs from
> > main
> > > menu available for download.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On Fri, Dec 31, 2021 at 3:26 PM Jude DaShiell 
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > > acbradio has a main menu program and a large archive of programs from
> > main
> > > > menu available for download.  One of them has a debian install
> > > > demonstration in it and another one has a slackware demonstration
> > install
> > > > in it.  It will not be easy to find them either but they're some of the
> > > > earlier programs in the archive.  More than that I cannot tell you.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On Fri, 31 Dec 2021, James AUSTIN wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Hi everyone
> > > > >
> > > > > Happy New Year to you all.
> > > > >
> > > > > I am really enjoying this discussion and also found it fascinating. I
> > > > would like to use the command line more and while I have some
> > experience
> > > > with it much of what is being discussed here goes over my head.
> > > > >
> > > > > I am wondering if there are any tutorials available to help someone
> > set
> > > > a system such as the one being discussed up from scratch. Well I can
> > access
> > > > the command line from a GUI I am reliant upon a graphical user
> > interface
> > > > being pre-installed with orca before I can use the command line.
> > > > >
> > > > > I appreciate that historically Linux was viewed by many as a
> > programmers
> > > > operating system, but in recent years it has become much more
> > user-friendly
> > > > and available to every day computer users.
> > > > >
> > > > > Any pointers to tutorials to set this up from scratch from a
> > blindness
> > > > perspective it would be greatly appreciated.
> > > > >
> > > > > Thank you
> > > > >
> > > > > Warmest wishes
> > > > >
> > > > > James
> > > > >
> > > > > Sent from my iPhone
> > > > >
> > > > > > On 31 Dec 2021, at 05:16, Jordan Livesey  > >
> > > > wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > That is why when you are just starting out on the console, and you
> > > > know how to set up speak up,  the keyboard shortcuts for that only
> > require
> > > > you to hold down the caps lock key by default, when ever I do an
> > install I
> > > > always turn the volume up with caps lock and 2 to turn up the volume,
> > but
> > > > as a rule of thumb, I generally don?t need to use it as the terminal
> > gets
> > > > all the work I need done, a simple sudo aptitude update and sudo
> > aptitude
> > > > upgrade if needed if I check for updates which I do regularly
> > > > > >
> > > > > >> On 31 Dec 2021, at 03:14, Jeffery Mewtamer 
> > > > wrote:
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> Even with console applications, there are various toolkits that
> > allow
> > > > > >> for the creation of pseudo-GUIs and many such applications do
> > have a
> > > > > >> number of keyboard commands, though they don't always adhere to
> > the
> > > > > >> conventions shared by most GUI applications(e.g. in the Nano text
> > > > > >> editor, save is ctrl+o, not ctrl+s, cut and paste are ctrl+k and
> > > > > >> ctrl+u instead of ctrl+x and ctrl+v, and find is ctrl+w instead of
> > > > > >> ctrl+f)
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> Most such text-only GUIs are built on ncurses, and there are
> > packages
> > > > > >> like dialog that allow shell scripts to  to display dialog boxes
> > and
> > > > > >> scrollable menus.
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> I also think it worth noting that, on most distros, there isn't
> > just
> > > > > >> one console, but several and that you can easily switch between
> > them
> > > > > >> with just a couple of key presses.
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> As a general rule, each console is reference by the abbreviation
> > tty
> > > > > >> followed by a number and if you're in one console, you switch to a
> > > > > >> different one by pressing alt+ the function key corresponding to
> > the
> > > > > >> number of the console you want. The number varies from distro to
> > > > > >> distro, but 12 is common, one for each function key on a standard
> > > > > >> keyboard, though I understand setups with 24 and a distinction
> > made
> > > > > >> between left alt and right alt when switching aren't uncommon. If
> > > > > >> you're running an Xserver, it takes up one of the consoles, and if
> > > > > >> you're in the GUI, you typically need to 

Re: Tutorial wasRe: Iggdrasil, a new amazing screenreader

[Jude DaShiell]

I have no idea what happened there.


On Fri, 31 Dec 2021, D.J.J. Ring, Jr. wrote:

> It now says "so long" - I guess it's all gone.
>
> DR
>
> On Fri, Dec 31, 2021 at 6:19 PM Jude DaShiell  wrote:
>
> > https://www.acbradio.org/ is the starting point.  It's a radio station and
> > can be listened to on the internet and with android and iphone apps but
> > the current programs play.  The main menu channel is the one for technical
> > information and treasure trove has old-time radio programs.
> >
> >
> > On Fri, 31 Dec 2021, D.J.J. Ring, Jr. wrote:
> >
> > > Is this acbradio, a podcast, radio program, linux application, or what?
> > >
> > > acbradio has a main menu program and a large archive of programs from
> > main
> > > menu available for download.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On Fri, Dec 31, 2021 at 3:26 PM Jude DaShiell 
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > > acbradio has a main menu program and a large archive of programs from
> > main
> > > > menu available for download.  One of them has a debian install
> > > > demonstration in it and another one has a slackware demonstration
> > install
> > > > in it.  It will not be easy to find them either but they're some of the
> > > > earlier programs in the archive.  More than that I cannot tell you.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On Fri, 31 Dec 2021, James AUSTIN wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Hi everyone
> > > > >
> > > > > Happy New Year to you all.
> > > > >
> > > > > I am really enjoying this discussion and also found it fascinating. I
> > > > would like to use the command line more and while I have some
> > experience
> > > > with it much of what is being discussed here goes over my head.
> > > > >
> > > > > I am wondering if there are any tutorials available to help someone
> > set
> > > > a system such as the one being discussed up from scratch. Well I can
> > access
> > > > the command line from a GUI I am reliant upon a graphical user
> > interface
> > > > being pre-installed with orca before I can use the command line.
> > > > >
> > > > > I appreciate that historically Linux was viewed by many as a
> > programmers
> > > > operating system, but in recent years it has become much more
> > user-friendly
> > > > and available to every day computer users.
> > > > >
> > > > > Any pointers to tutorials to set this up from scratch from a
> > blindness
> > > > perspective it would be greatly appreciated.
> > > > >
> > > > > Thank you
> > > > >
> > > > > Warmest wishes
> > > > >
> > > > > James
> > > > >
> > > > > Sent from my iPhone
> > > > >
> > > > > > On 31 Dec 2021, at 05:16, Jordan Livesey  > >
> > > > wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > That is why when you are just starting out on the console, and you
> > > > know how to set up speak up,  the keyboard shortcuts for that only
> > require
> > > > you to hold down the caps lock key by default, when ever I do an
> > install I
> > > > always turn the volume up with caps lock and 2 to turn up the volume,
> > but
> > > > as a rule of thumb, I generally don?t need to use it as the terminal
> > gets
> > > > all the work I need done, a simple sudo aptitude update and sudo
> > aptitude
> > > > upgrade if needed if I check for updates which I do regularly
> > > > > >
> > > > > >> On 31 Dec 2021, at 03:14, Jeffery Mewtamer 
> > > > wrote:
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> Even with console applications, there are various toolkits that
> > allow
> > > > > >> for the creation of pseudo-GUIs and many such applications do
> > have a
> > > > > >> number of keyboard commands, though they don't always adhere to
> > the
> > > > > >> conventions shared by most GUI applications(e.g. in the Nano text
> > > > > >> editor, save is ctrl+o, not ctrl+s, cut and paste are ctrl+k and
> > > > > >> ctrl+u instead of ctrl+x and ctrl+v, and find is ctrl+w instead of
> > > > > >> ctrl+f)
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> Most such text-only GUIs are built on ncurses, and there are
> > packages
> > > > > >> like dialog that allow shell scripts to  to display dialog boxes
> > and
> > > > > >> scrollable menus.
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> I also think it worth noting that, on most distros, there isn't
> > just
> > > > > >> one console, but several and that you can easily switch between
> > them
> > > > > >> with just a couple of key presses.
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> As a general rule, each console is reference by the abbreviation
> > tty
> > > > > >> followed by a number and if you're in one console, you switch to a
> > > > > >> different one by pressing alt+ the function key corresponding to
> > the
> > > > > >> number of the console you want. The number varies from distro to
> > > > > >> distro, but 12 is common, one for each function key on a standard
> > > > > >> keyboard, though I understand setups with 24 and a distinction
> > made
> > > > > >> between left alt and right alt when switching aren't uncommon. If
> > > > > >> you're running an Xserver, it takes up one of the consoles, and if
> > > > > >> you're in the GUI, you typically need to do trl+alt+fn to break
> > out of
> > > > 

Re: Tutorial wasRe: Iggdrasil, a new amazing screenreader

[D.J.J. Ring, Jr.]

It now says "so long" - I guess it's all gone.

DR

On Fri, Dec 31, 2021 at 6:19 PM Jude DaShiell  wrote:

> https://www.acbradio.org/ is the starting point.  It's a radio station and
> can be listened to on the internet and with android and iphone apps but
> the current programs play.  The main menu channel is the one for technical
> information and treasure trove has old-time radio programs.
>
>
> On Fri, 31 Dec 2021, D.J.J. Ring, Jr. wrote:
>
> > Is this acbradio, a podcast, radio program, linux application, or what?
> >
> > acbradio has a main menu program and a large archive of programs from
> main
> > menu available for download.
> >
> >
> >
> > On Fri, Dec 31, 2021 at 3:26 PM Jude DaShiell 
> wrote:
> >
> > > acbradio has a main menu program and a large archive of programs from
> main
> > > menu available for download.  One of them has a debian install
> > > demonstration in it and another one has a slackware demonstration
> install
> > > in it.  It will not be easy to find them either but they're some of the
> > > earlier programs in the archive.  More than that I cannot tell you.
> > >
> > >
> > > On Fri, 31 Dec 2021, James AUSTIN wrote:
> > >
> > > > Hi everyone
> > > >
> > > > Happy New Year to you all.
> > > >
> > > > I am really enjoying this discussion and also found it fascinating. I
> > > would like to use the command line more and while I have some
> experience
> > > with it much of what is being discussed here goes over my head.
> > > >
> > > > I am wondering if there are any tutorials available to help someone
> set
> > > a system such as the one being discussed up from scratch. Well I can
> access
> > > the command line from a GUI I am reliant upon a graphical user
> interface
> > > being pre-installed with orca before I can use the command line.
> > > >
> > > > I appreciate that historically Linux was viewed by many as a
> programmers
> > > operating system, but in recent years it has become much more
> user-friendly
> > > and available to every day computer users.
> > > >
> > > > Any pointers to tutorials to set this up from scratch from a
> blindness
> > > perspective it would be greatly appreciated.
> > > >
> > > > Thank you
> > > >
> > > > Warmest wishes
> > > >
> > > > James
> > > >
> > > > Sent from my iPhone
> > > >
> > > > > On 31 Dec 2021, at 05:16, Jordan Livesey  >
> > > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > That is why when you are just starting out on the console, and you
> > > know how to set up speak up,  the keyboard shortcuts for that only
> require
> > > you to hold down the caps lock key by default, when ever I do an
> install I
> > > always turn the volume up with caps lock and 2 to turn up the volume,
> but
> > > as a rule of thumb, I generally don?t need to use it as the terminal
> gets
> > > all the work I need done, a simple sudo aptitude update and sudo
> aptitude
> > > upgrade if needed if I check for updates which I do regularly
> > > > >
> > > > >> On 31 Dec 2021, at 03:14, Jeffery Mewtamer 
> > > wrote:
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Even with console applications, there are various toolkits that
> allow
> > > > >> for the creation of pseudo-GUIs and many such applications do
> have a
> > > > >> number of keyboard commands, though they don't always adhere to
> the
> > > > >> conventions shared by most GUI applications(e.g. in the Nano text
> > > > >> editor, save is ctrl+o, not ctrl+s, cut and paste are ctrl+k and
> > > > >> ctrl+u instead of ctrl+x and ctrl+v, and find is ctrl+w instead of
> > > > >> ctrl+f)
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Most such text-only GUIs are built on ncurses, and there are
> packages
> > > > >> like dialog that allow shell scripts to  to display dialog boxes
> and
> > > > >> scrollable menus.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> I also think it worth noting that, on most distros, there isn't
> just
> > > > >> one console, but several and that you can easily switch between
> them
> > > > >> with just a couple of key presses.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> As a general rule, each console is reference by the abbreviation
> tty
> > > > >> followed by a number and if you're in one console, you switch to a
> > > > >> different one by pressing alt+ the function key corresponding to
> the
> > > > >> number of the console you want. The number varies from distro to
> > > > >> distro, but 12 is common, one for each function key on a standard
> > > > >> keyboard, though I understand setups with 24 and a distinction
> made
> > > > >> between left alt and right alt when switching aren't uncommon. If
> > > > >> you're running an Xserver, it takes up one of the consoles, and if
> > > > >> you're in the GUI, you typically need to do trl+alt+fn to break
> out of
> > > > >> the GUI and into the text consoles. If you start x manually, the
> > > > >> xserver will be on whichever console you were on when you invoked
> > > > >> startx, but if your system boots into the desktop automatically,
> which
> > > > >> console is used for the GUI varies from distro to distro, though I
> > > > >> believe tty1 and 

Re: Tutorial wasRe: Iggdrasil, a new amazing screenreader

[Jude DaShiell]

https://www.acbradio.org/ is the starting point.  It's a radio station and
can be listened to on the internet and with android and iphone apps but
the current programs play.  The main menu channel is the one for technical
information and treasure trove has old-time radio programs.


On Fri, 31 Dec 2021, D.J.J. Ring, Jr. wrote:

> Is this acbradio, a podcast, radio program, linux application, or what?
>
> acbradio has a main menu program and a large archive of programs from main
> menu available for download.
>
>
>
> On Fri, Dec 31, 2021 at 3:26 PM Jude DaShiell  wrote:
>
> > acbradio has a main menu program and a large archive of programs from main
> > menu available for download.  One of them has a debian install
> > demonstration in it and another one has a slackware demonstration install
> > in it.  It will not be easy to find them either but they're some of the
> > earlier programs in the archive.  More than that I cannot tell you.
> >
> >
> > On Fri, 31 Dec 2021, James AUSTIN wrote:
> >
> > > Hi everyone
> > >
> > > Happy New Year to you all.
> > >
> > > I am really enjoying this discussion and also found it fascinating. I
> > would like to use the command line more and while I have some experience
> > with it much of what is being discussed here goes over my head.
> > >
> > > I am wondering if there are any tutorials available to help someone set
> > a system such as the one being discussed up from scratch. Well I can access
> > the command line from a GUI I am reliant upon a graphical user interface
> > being pre-installed with orca before I can use the command line.
> > >
> > > I appreciate that historically Linux was viewed by many as a programmers
> > operating system, but in recent years it has become much more user-friendly
> > and available to every day computer users.
> > >
> > > Any pointers to tutorials to set this up from scratch from a blindness
> > perspective it would be greatly appreciated.
> > >
> > > Thank you
> > >
> > > Warmest wishes
> > >
> > > James
> > >
> > > Sent from my iPhone
> > >
> > > > On 31 Dec 2021, at 05:16, Jordan Livesey 
> > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > That is why when you are just starting out on the console, and you
> > know how to set up speak up,  the keyboard shortcuts for that only require
> > you to hold down the caps lock key by default, when ever I do an install I
> > always turn the volume up with caps lock and 2 to turn up the volume, but
> > as a rule of thumb, I generally don?t need to use it as the terminal gets
> > all the work I need done, a simple sudo aptitude update and sudo aptitude
> > upgrade if needed if I check for updates which I do regularly
> > > >
> > > >> On 31 Dec 2021, at 03:14, Jeffery Mewtamer 
> > wrote:
> > > >>
> > > >> Even with console applications, there are various toolkits that allow
> > > >> for the creation of pseudo-GUIs and many such applications do have a
> > > >> number of keyboard commands, though they don't always adhere to the
> > > >> conventions shared by most GUI applications(e.g. in the Nano text
> > > >> editor, save is ctrl+o, not ctrl+s, cut and paste are ctrl+k and
> > > >> ctrl+u instead of ctrl+x and ctrl+v, and find is ctrl+w instead of
> > > >> ctrl+f)
> > > >>
> > > >> Most such text-only GUIs are built on ncurses, and there are packages
> > > >> like dialog that allow shell scripts to  to display dialog boxes and
> > > >> scrollable menus.
> > > >>
> > > >> I also think it worth noting that, on most distros, there isn't just
> > > >> one console, but several and that you can easily switch between them
> > > >> with just a couple of key presses.
> > > >>
> > > >> As a general rule, each console is reference by the abbreviation tty
> > > >> followed by a number and if you're in one console, you switch to a
> > > >> different one by pressing alt+ the function key corresponding to the
> > > >> number of the console you want. The number varies from distro to
> > > >> distro, but 12 is common, one for each function key on a standard
> > > >> keyboard, though I understand setups with 24 and a distinction made
> > > >> between left alt and right alt when switching aren't uncommon. If
> > > >> you're running an Xserver, it takes up one of the consoles, and if
> > > >> you're in the GUI, you typically need to do trl+alt+fn to break out of
> > > >> the GUI and into the text consoles. If you start x manually, the
> > > >> xserver will be on whichever console you were on when you invoked
> > > >> startx, but if your system boots into the desktop automatically, which
> > > >> console is used for the GUI varies from distro to distro, though I
> > > >> believe tty1 and tty6 or tty7 are the most common.
> > > >>
> > > >> I usually have a stripped down Xserver running Firefox+Orca on tty1
> > > >> and use tty2+ for everything else... at the moment, I have:
> > > >>
> > > >> Firefox+Orca running on tty1
> > > >> aumix(a audio mixer) opened in tty2
> > > >> A text file open in nano on tty3
> > > >> tty4 at the command 

Re: Tutorial wasRe: Iggdrasil, a new amazing screenreader

[Jude DaShiell]

It's a series of podcasts that can be downloaded.


On Fri, 31 Dec 2021, D.J.J. Ring, Jr. wrote:

> Is this acbradio, a podcast, radio program, linux application, or what?
>
> acbradio has a main menu program and a large archive of programs from main
> menu available for download.
>
>
>
> On Fri, Dec 31, 2021 at 3:26 PM Jude DaShiell  wrote:
>
> > acbradio has a main menu program and a large archive of programs from main
> > menu available for download.  One of them has a debian install
> > demonstration in it and another one has a slackware demonstration install
> > in it.  It will not be easy to find them either but they're some of the
> > earlier programs in the archive.  More than that I cannot tell you.
> >
> >
> > On Fri, 31 Dec 2021, James AUSTIN wrote:
> >
> > > Hi everyone
> > >
> > > Happy New Year to you all.
> > >
> > > I am really enjoying this discussion and also found it fascinating. I
> > would like to use the command line more and while I have some experience
> > with it much of what is being discussed here goes over my head.
> > >
> > > I am wondering if there are any tutorials available to help someone set
> > a system such as the one being discussed up from scratch. Well I can access
> > the command line from a GUI I am reliant upon a graphical user interface
> > being pre-installed with orca before I can use the command line.
> > >
> > > I appreciate that historically Linux was viewed by many as a programmers
> > operating system, but in recent years it has become much more user-friendly
> > and available to every day computer users.
> > >
> > > Any pointers to tutorials to set this up from scratch from a blindness
> > perspective it would be greatly appreciated.
> > >
> > > Thank you
> > >
> > > Warmest wishes
> > >
> > > James
> > >
> > > Sent from my iPhone
> > >
> > > > On 31 Dec 2021, at 05:16, Jordan Livesey 
> > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > That is why when you are just starting out on the console, and you
> > know how to set up speak up,  the keyboard shortcuts for that only require
> > you to hold down the caps lock key by default, when ever I do an install I
> > always turn the volume up with caps lock and 2 to turn up the volume, but
> > as a rule of thumb, I generally don?t need to use it as the terminal gets
> > all the work I need done, a simple sudo aptitude update and sudo aptitude
> > upgrade if needed if I check for updates which I do regularly
> > > >
> > > >> On 31 Dec 2021, at 03:14, Jeffery Mewtamer 
> > wrote:
> > > >>
> > > >> Even with console applications, there are various toolkits that allow
> > > >> for the creation of pseudo-GUIs and many such applications do have a
> > > >> number of keyboard commands, though they don't always adhere to the
> > > >> conventions shared by most GUI applications(e.g. in the Nano text
> > > >> editor, save is ctrl+o, not ctrl+s, cut and paste are ctrl+k and
> > > >> ctrl+u instead of ctrl+x and ctrl+v, and find is ctrl+w instead of
> > > >> ctrl+f)
> > > >>
> > > >> Most such text-only GUIs are built on ncurses, and there are packages
> > > >> like dialog that allow shell scripts to  to display dialog boxes and
> > > >> scrollable menus.
> > > >>
> > > >> I also think it worth noting that, on most distros, there isn't just
> > > >> one console, but several and that you can easily switch between them
> > > >> with just a couple of key presses.
> > > >>
> > > >> As a general rule, each console is reference by the abbreviation tty
> > > >> followed by a number and if you're in one console, you switch to a
> > > >> different one by pressing alt+ the function key corresponding to the
> > > >> number of the console you want. The number varies from distro to
> > > >> distro, but 12 is common, one for each function key on a standard
> > > >> keyboard, though I understand setups with 24 and a distinction made
> > > >> between left alt and right alt when switching aren't uncommon. If
> > > >> you're running an Xserver, it takes up one of the consoles, and if
> > > >> you're in the GUI, you typically need to do trl+alt+fn to break out of
> > > >> the GUI and into the text consoles. If you start x manually, the
> > > >> xserver will be on whichever console you were on when you invoked
> > > >> startx, but if your system boots into the desktop automatically, which
> > > >> console is used for the GUI varies from distro to distro, though I
> > > >> believe tty1 and tty6 or tty7 are the most common.
> > > >>
> > > >> I usually have a stripped down Xserver running Firefox+Orca on tty1
> > > >> and use tty2+ for everything else... at the moment, I have:
> > > >>
> > > >> Firefox+Orca running on tty1
> > > >> aumix(a audio mixer) opened in tty2
> > > >> A text file open in nano on tty3
> > > >> tty4 at the command prompt in the directory where the text file that's
> > > >> open in tty3 is located, for easily running wc to get word count of
> > > >> the file without having to close and reopen my editor or if I need to
> > > >> pull up a different 

Re: Tutorial wasRe: Iggdrasil, a new amazing screenreader

[D.J.J. Ring, Jr.]

Is this acbradio, a podcast, radio program, linux application, or what?

acbradio has a main menu program and a large archive of programs from main
menu available for download.



On Fri, Dec 31, 2021 at 3:26 PM Jude DaShiell  wrote:

> acbradio has a main menu program and a large archive of programs from main
> menu available for download.  One of them has a debian install
> demonstration in it and another one has a slackware demonstration install
> in it.  It will not be easy to find them either but they're some of the
> earlier programs in the archive.  More than that I cannot tell you.
>
>
> On Fri, 31 Dec 2021, James AUSTIN wrote:
>
> > Hi everyone
> >
> > Happy New Year to you all.
> >
> > I am really enjoying this discussion and also found it fascinating. I
> would like to use the command line more and while I have some experience
> with it much of what is being discussed here goes over my head.
> >
> > I am wondering if there are any tutorials available to help someone set
> a system such as the one being discussed up from scratch. Well I can access
> the command line from a GUI I am reliant upon a graphical user interface
> being pre-installed with orca before I can use the command line.
> >
> > I appreciate that historically Linux was viewed by many as a programmers
> operating system, but in recent years it has become much more user-friendly
> and available to every day computer users.
> >
> > Any pointers to tutorials to set this up from scratch from a blindness
> perspective it would be greatly appreciated.
> >
> > Thank you
> >
> > Warmest wishes
> >
> > James
> >
> > Sent from my iPhone
> >
> > > On 31 Dec 2021, at 05:16, Jordan Livesey 
> wrote:
> > >
> > > That is why when you are just starting out on the console, and you
> know how to set up speak up,  the keyboard shortcuts for that only require
> you to hold down the caps lock key by default, when ever I do an install I
> always turn the volume up with caps lock and 2 to turn up the volume, but
> as a rule of thumb, I generally don?t need to use it as the terminal gets
> all the work I need done, a simple sudo aptitude update and sudo aptitude
> upgrade if needed if I check for updates which I do regularly
> > >
> > >> On 31 Dec 2021, at 03:14, Jeffery Mewtamer 
> wrote:
> > >>
> > >> Even with console applications, there are various toolkits that allow
> > >> for the creation of pseudo-GUIs and many such applications do have a
> > >> number of keyboard commands, though they don't always adhere to the
> > >> conventions shared by most GUI applications(e.g. in the Nano text
> > >> editor, save is ctrl+o, not ctrl+s, cut and paste are ctrl+k and
> > >> ctrl+u instead of ctrl+x and ctrl+v, and find is ctrl+w instead of
> > >> ctrl+f)
> > >>
> > >> Most such text-only GUIs are built on ncurses, and there are packages
> > >> like dialog that allow shell scripts to  to display dialog boxes and
> > >> scrollable menus.
> > >>
> > >> I also think it worth noting that, on most distros, there isn't just
> > >> one console, but several and that you can easily switch between them
> > >> with just a couple of key presses.
> > >>
> > >> As a general rule, each console is reference by the abbreviation tty
> > >> followed by a number and if you're in one console, you switch to a
> > >> different one by pressing alt+ the function key corresponding to the
> > >> number of the console you want. The number varies from distro to
> > >> distro, but 12 is common, one for each function key on a standard
> > >> keyboard, though I understand setups with 24 and a distinction made
> > >> between left alt and right alt when switching aren't uncommon. If
> > >> you're running an Xserver, it takes up one of the consoles, and if
> > >> you're in the GUI, you typically need to do trl+alt+fn to break out of
> > >> the GUI and into the text consoles. If you start x manually, the
> > >> xserver will be on whichever console you were on when you invoked
> > >> startx, but if your system boots into the desktop automatically, which
> > >> console is used for the GUI varies from distro to distro, though I
> > >> believe tty1 and tty6 or tty7 are the most common.
> > >>
> > >> I usually have a stripped down Xserver running Firefox+Orca on tty1
> > >> and use tty2+ for everything else... at the moment, I have:
> > >>
> > >> Firefox+Orca running on tty1
> > >> aumix(a audio mixer) opened in tty2
> > >> A text file open in nano on tty3
> > >> tty4 at the command prompt in the directory where the text file that's
> > >> open in tty3 is located, for easily running wc to get word count of
> > >> the file without having to close and reopen my editor or if I need to
> > >> pull up a different file to reference something.
> > >> tty5 is open to the directory where Firefox dumps all of my downloads.
> > >>
> > >> and from Firefox, I just use ctrl+alt+F2-F5 to jump to aumix, the open
> > >> text file, the directory where the file is saved, or my downloads
> > >> directory, and can 

Re: Iggdrasil, a new amazing screenreader

[Jude DaShiell]

Sometimes report-bug will find the right list for you and running
report-bug will get the report in in the correct format.  Only thing is,
you need to already have an smtp transport package working first since
report-bug will use that to send your report.


On Fri, 31 Dec 2021, D.J.J. Ring, Jr. wrote:

> I agree, one of the difficulties with reporting bugs and suggestions for a
> non-technical person with Debian is finding the list that handles the
> problems.  Ubuntu has a system "Bug Squad"  that, like a hospital emergency
> room, let's people search for a similar bug, if one is found, allow the
> person to say "me too" or if none is found to submit a new bug. The bug is
> then - just like a good hospital emergency room - assigned to the correct
> team by volunteers who in Debian terms "know the correct list".  It's an
> excellent program, but I still like Debian better despite its flaws.
>
> David
>
> On Fri, Dec 31, 2021 at 12:51 PM Samuel Thibault 
> wrote:
>
> > Samuel Thibault, le ven. 31 d?c. 2021 18:50:07 +0100, a ecrit:
> > > D.J.J. Ring, Jr., le ven. 31 d?c. 2021 12:40:39 -0500, a ecrit:
> > > > I thought your reluctance to go there was related to poor treatment
> > > > instead of what it most likely is, "too darned many things to
> > > > accomplish".
> > >
> > > No it's really that I cannot do everything in debian-accessibility
> > > longterm-wise. The question at stake is not so technical, thus many
> > > people can discuss/work on it, it doesn't have to be me, so I can spend
> > > my time on more technical concerns.
> >
> > Of course I can help in the discussion such as suggesting ideas of
> > compromises. But explaining the situation etc. takes time to write by
> > mail, and it doesn't have to be me taking that time.
> >
> > Samuel
> >
> >
>

Re: Tutorial wasRe: Iggdrasil, a new amazing screenreader

[Jude DaShiell]

acbradio has a main menu program and a large archive of programs from main
menu available for download.  One of them has a debian install
demonstration in it and another one has a slackware demonstration install
in it.  It will not be easy to find them either but they're some of the
earlier programs in the archive.  More than that I cannot tell you.


On Fri, 31 Dec 2021, James AUSTIN wrote:

> Hi everyone
>
> Happy New Year to you all.
>
> I am really enjoying this discussion and also found it fascinating. I would 
> like to use the command line more and while I have some experience with it 
> much of what is being discussed here goes over my head.
>
> I am wondering if there are any tutorials available to help someone set a 
> system such as the one being discussed up from scratch. Well I can access the 
> command line from a GUI I am reliant upon a graphical user interface being 
> pre-installed with orca before I can use the command line.
>
> I appreciate that historically Linux was viewed by many as a programmers 
> operating system, but in recent years it has become much more user-friendly 
> and available to every day computer users.
>
> Any pointers to tutorials to set this up from scratch from a blindness 
> perspective it would be greatly appreciated.
>
> Thank you
>
> Warmest wishes
>
> James
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> > On 31 Dec 2021, at 05:16, Jordan Livesey  wrote:
> >
> > That is why when you are just starting out on the console, and you know 
> > how to set up speak up,  the keyboard shortcuts for that only require you 
> > to hold down the caps lock key by default, when ever I do an install I 
> > always turn the volume up with caps lock and 2 to turn up the volume, but 
> > as a rule of thumb, I generally don?t need to use it as the terminal gets 
> > all the work I need done, a simple sudo aptitude update and sudo aptitude 
> > upgrade if needed if I check for updates which I do regularly
> >
> >> On 31 Dec 2021, at 03:14, Jeffery Mewtamer  wrote:
> >>
> >> Even with console applications, there are various toolkits that allow
> >> for the creation of pseudo-GUIs and many such applications do have a
> >> number of keyboard commands, though they don't always adhere to the
> >> conventions shared by most GUI applications(e.g. in the Nano text
> >> editor, save is ctrl+o, not ctrl+s, cut and paste are ctrl+k and
> >> ctrl+u instead of ctrl+x and ctrl+v, and find is ctrl+w instead of
> >> ctrl+f)
> >>
> >> Most such text-only GUIs are built on ncurses, and there are packages
> >> like dialog that allow shell scripts to  to display dialog boxes and
> >> scrollable menus.
> >>
> >> I also think it worth noting that, on most distros, there isn't just
> >> one console, but several and that you can easily switch between them
> >> with just a couple of key presses.
> >>
> >> As a general rule, each console is reference by the abbreviation tty
> >> followed by a number and if you're in one console, you switch to a
> >> different one by pressing alt+ the function key corresponding to the
> >> number of the console you want. The number varies from distro to
> >> distro, but 12 is common, one for each function key on a standard
> >> keyboard, though I understand setups with 24 and a distinction made
> >> between left alt and right alt when switching aren't uncommon. If
> >> you're running an Xserver, it takes up one of the consoles, and if
> >> you're in the GUI, you typically need to do trl+alt+fn to break out of
> >> the GUI and into the text consoles. If you start x manually, the
> >> xserver will be on whichever console you were on when you invoked
> >> startx, but if your system boots into the desktop automatically, which
> >> console is used for the GUI varies from distro to distro, though I
> >> believe tty1 and tty6 or tty7 are the most common.
> >>
> >> I usually have a stripped down Xserver running Firefox+Orca on tty1
> >> and use tty2+ for everything else... at the moment, I have:
> >>
> >> Firefox+Orca running on tty1
> >> aumix(a audio mixer) opened in tty2
> >> A text file open in nano on tty3
> >> tty4 at the command prompt in the directory where the text file that's
> >> open in tty3 is located, for easily running wc to get word count of
> >> the file without having to close and reopen my editor or if I need to
> >> pull up a different file to reference something.
> >> tty5 is open to the directory where Firefox dumps all of my downloads.
> >>
> >> and from Firefox, I just use ctrl+alt+F2-F5 to jump to aumix, the open
> >> text file, the directory where the file is saved, or my downloads
> >> directory, and can switch between any of those text consoles with just
> >> alt+a function key.
> >>
> >> And while I haven't use them, there are utilities like screen and some
> >> others to facilitate multi-tasking in a single console.
> >>
> >> And if things are properly configured, switching between the console
> >> running X and one of the text consoles should seamlessly switch
> >> 

Re: Iggdrasil, a new amazing screenreader

[D.J.J. Ring, Jr.]

To unsubscribe from any debian list send an email to:

listname-requ...@lists.debian.org with the subject of unsubscribe.

To subscribe do the same thing but use a subject of subscribe.

You'd want to use debian-accessibility-requ...@lists.debian.org with a
subject of unsubscribe to do what you're asking.

Happy New Year from your friendly Debian Accessibility list.

David

Re: Iggdrasil, a new amazing screenreader

[Jordan Livesey]

ok how do I unsubscribe

On Fri, Dec 31, 2021 at 6:14 PM Chime Hart 
wrote:

> Well DJ, why not just type "reportbug" followed by the name of package?
> I've
> had fairly good luck over the years, at least having my concerns be heard.
> I
> think the most trouble I had was having the program send my request
> through a
> remote server.
> Chime
>
>

Re: Iggdrasil, a new amazing screenreader

[Chime Hart]

Well DJ, why not just type "reportbug" followed by the name of package? I've 
had fairly good luck over the years, at least having my concerns be heard. I 
think the most trouble I had was having the program send my request through a 
remote server.

Chime

Re: Iggdrasil, a new amazing screenreader

[D.J.J. Ring, Jr.]

I agree, one of the difficulties with reporting bugs and suggestions for a
non-technical person with Debian is finding the list that handles the
problems.  Ubuntu has a system "Bug Squad"  that, like a hospital emergency
room, let's people search for a similar bug, if one is found, allow the
person to say "me too" or if none is found to submit a new bug. The bug is
then - just like a good hospital emergency room - assigned to the correct
team by volunteers who in Debian terms "know the correct list".  It's an
excellent program, but I still like Debian better despite its flaws.

David

On Fri, Dec 31, 2021 at 12:51 PM Samuel Thibault 
wrote:

> Samuel Thibault, le ven. 31 déc. 2021 18:50:07 +0100, a ecrit:
> > D.J.J. Ring, Jr., le ven. 31 déc. 2021 12:40:39 -0500, a ecrit:
> > > I thought your reluctance to go there was related to poor treatment
> > > instead of what it most likely is, "too darned many things to
> > > accomplish".
> >
> > No it's really that I cannot do everything in debian-accessibility
> > longterm-wise. The question at stake is not so technical, thus many
> > people can discuss/work on it, it doesn't have to be me, so I can spend
> > my time on more technical concerns.
>
> Of course I can help in the discussion such as suggesting ideas of
> compromises. But explaining the situation etc. takes time to write by
> mail, and it doesn't have to be me taking that time.
>
> Samuel
>
>

Tutorial wasRe: Iggdrasil, a new amazing screenreader

[James AUSTIN]

Hi everyone

Happy New Year to you all.

I am really enjoying this discussion and also found it fascinating. I would 
like to use the command line more and while I have some experience with it much 
of what is being discussed here goes over my head.

I am wondering if there are any tutorials available to help someone set a 
system such as the one being discussed up from scratch. Well I can access the 
command line from a GUI I am reliant upon a graphical user interface being 
pre-installed with orca before I can use the command line.

I appreciate that historically Linux was viewed by many as a programmers 
operating system, but in recent years it has become much more user-friendly and 
available to every day computer users.

Any pointers to tutorials to set this up from scratch from a blindness 
perspective it would be greatly appreciated.

Thank you

Warmest wishes

James

Sent from my iPhone

> On 31 Dec 2021, at 05:16, Jordan Livesey  wrote:
> 
> That is why when you are just starting out on the console, and you know how 
> to set up speak up,  the keyboard shortcuts for that only require you to hold 
> down the caps lock key by default, when ever I do an install I always turn 
> the volume up with caps lock and 2 to turn up the volume, but as a rule of 
> thumb, I generally don’t need to use it as the terminal gets all the work I 
> need done, a simple sudo aptitude update and sudo aptitude upgrade if needed 
> if I check for updates which I do regularly
> 
>> On 31 Dec 2021, at 03:14, Jeffery Mewtamer  wrote:
>> 
>> Even with console applications, there are various toolkits that allow
>> for the creation of pseudo-GUIs and many such applications do have a
>> number of keyboard commands, though they don't always adhere to the
>> conventions shared by most GUI applications(e.g. in the Nano text
>> editor, save is ctrl+o, not ctrl+s, cut and paste are ctrl+k and
>> ctrl+u instead of ctrl+x and ctrl+v, and find is ctrl+w instead of
>> ctrl+f)
>> 
>> Most such text-only GUIs are built on ncurses, and there are packages
>> like dialog that allow shell scripts to  to display dialog boxes and
>> scrollable menus.
>> 
>> I also think it worth noting that, on most distros, there isn't just
>> one console, but several and that you can easily switch between them
>> with just a couple of key presses.
>> 
>> As a general rule, each console is reference by the abbreviation tty
>> followed by a number and if you're in one console, you switch to a
>> different one by pressing alt+ the function key corresponding to the
>> number of the console you want. The number varies from distro to
>> distro, but 12 is common, one for each function key on a standard
>> keyboard, though I understand setups with 24 and a distinction made
>> between left alt and right alt when switching aren't uncommon. If
>> you're running an Xserver, it takes up one of the consoles, and if
>> you're in the GUI, you typically need to do trl+alt+fn to break out of
>> the GUI and into the text consoles. If you start x manually, the
>> xserver will be on whichever console you were on when you invoked
>> startx, but if your system boots into the desktop automatically, which
>> console is used for the GUI varies from distro to distro, though I
>> believe tty1 and tty6 or tty7 are the most common.
>> 
>> I usually have a stripped down Xserver running Firefox+Orca on tty1
>> and use tty2+ for everything else... at the moment, I have:
>> 
>> Firefox+Orca running on tty1
>> aumix(a audio mixer) opened in tty2
>> A text file open in nano on tty3
>> tty4 at the command prompt in the directory where the text file that's
>> open in tty3 is located, for easily running wc to get word count of
>> the file without having to close and reopen my editor or if I need to
>> pull up a different file to reference something.
>> tty5 is open to the directory where Firefox dumps all of my downloads.
>> 
>> and from Firefox, I just use ctrl+alt+F2-F5 to jump to aumix, the open
>> text file, the directory where the file is saved, or my downloads
>> directory, and can switch between any of those text consoles with just
>> alt+a function key.
>> 
>> And while I haven't use them, there are utilities like screen and some
>> others to facilitate multi-tasking in a single console.
>> 
>> And if things are properly configured, switching between the console
>> running X and one of the text consoles should seamlessly switch
>> between Orca and your console screen reader, though this can sometimes
>> be tricky to get working right.
>> 
> 

Re: Iggdrasil, a new amazing screenreader

[Didier Spaier]

On 31/12/2021 18:35, Samuel Thibault wrote:
> Perhaps we can just dump the wiki page
> 
> http://wiki.debian.org/accessibility
> 
> somewhere in the installed system?

If going this way I suggest to also ship the good ol' w3m in the installer to
read the relevant part during installation, as it is a both a browser and a
pager, needs very few key binding, and can be stripped from useless features in
this context through configure options to limit the payload.

I consider doing this in the Slint installer instead of or maybe in addition to
slint-doc, to read part of https://slint.fr/doc/HandBook.html

There is nothing fancy in slint-doc really, it's just a shell script which
provides a documentation menu using dialog. Source here:
https://slackware.uk/slint/x86_64/slint-14.2.1/source/slint-docs/
Not all files there are shipped, one can have a look to:
https://slackware.uk/slint/x86_64/slint-14.2.1/source/slint-docs/slint-docs.SlackBuild
to know what is in the package.

Cheers,
Didier

Re: Iggdrasil, a new amazing screenreader

[Samuel Thibault]

Samuel Thibault, le ven. 31 déc. 2021 18:50:07 +0100, a ecrit:
> D.J.J. Ring, Jr., le ven. 31 déc. 2021 12:40:39 -0500, a ecrit:
> > I thought your reluctance to go there was related to poor treatment
> > instead of what it most likely is, "too darned many things to
> > accomplish".
> 
> No it's really that I cannot do everything in debian-accessibility
> longterm-wise. The question at stake is not so technical, thus many
> people can discuss/work on it, it doesn't have to be me, so I can spend
> my time on more technical concerns.

Of course I can help in the discussion such as suggesting ideas of
compromises. But explaining the situation etc. takes time to write by
mail, and it doesn't have to be me taking that time.

Samuel

Re: Iggdrasil, a new amazing screenreader

[Samuel Thibault]

D.J.J. Ring, Jr., le ven. 31 déc. 2021 12:40:39 -0500, a ecrit:
> I thought your reluctance to go there was related to poor treatment
> instead of what it most likely is, "too darned many things to
> accomplish".

No it's really that I cannot do everything in debian-accessibility
longterm-wise. The question at stake is not so technical, thus many
people can discuss/work on it, it doesn't have to be me, so I can spend
my time on more technical concerns.

Samuel

Re: Iggdrasil, a new amazing screenreader

[D.J.J. Ring, Jr.]

Chris,

To unsubscribe from any debian list send an email to:

listname-requ...@lists.debian.org with the subject of unsubscribe.

To subscribe do the same thing but use a subject of subscribe.

You'd want to use debian-accessibility-requ...@lists.debian.org with a
subject of unsubscribe to do what you're asking.

Happy New Year from your friendly Debian Accessibility list.

David

On Fri, Dec 31, 2021 at 12:17 PM Chris Orme  wrote:

> Sorry, I'm flooded with emails.  Can you remove me from this list, please?
>
>
> On Fri, 31 Dec 2021, at 5:11 PM, D.J.J. Ring, Jr. wrote:
>
> I'll introduce the discussion, I'd rather not have someone as worthy as
> you be shot up on Debian-Boot email list.
>
> Obviously, we are more civilized on this email list, but it seems that
> Debian-Boot is the wild and wooly frontier where new suggestions are met
> with barbs and malice. Sounds like a retarded group that doesn't realize
> the harm they do, but that's typical of the 21st century and for centuries
> before. We can only lead by example.
>
> Best wishes,
>
> David
>
> On Fri, Dec 31, 2021 at 11:44 AM Samuel Thibault 
> wrote:
>
> Hello,
>
> D.J.J. Ring, Jr., le ven. 31 déc. 2021 10:12:43 -0500, a ecrit:
> > The network-manager package should be installed by default to ANY
> installation
>
> Well, not "any".
>
> Again, that's where *discussion* needs to be done. And not here, but
> where such discussions belong: with the people who know about all the
> pros and cons of the various solutions. That is,
> debian-b...@lists.debian.org
>
> I guess an answer to the concerns being raised is that we should
> have a "textual desktop" item in the list of tasks during debian
> installer. So that all desktop-like thingies such as network-manager get
> installed without having to install gnome or mate, without impacting all
> installations (embedded systems do not want desktop-like bloat).
>
> Again, I'd really like *not* to have to raise such discussions myself on
> debian-boot. Again, such things should *not* rely on just one person.
>
> Samuel
>
>
>

Re: Iggdrasil, a new amazing screenreader

[D.J.J. Ring, Jr.]

Thanks, now there's less reason for fear. I thought your reluctance to go
there was related to poor treatment instead of what it most likely is, "too
darned many things to accomplish".

Good news for all, especially that they pushed to keep a feature that "TAP"
type people - "Temporarily Able People" as opposed to those impaired in
their abilities - would wish to eliminate.,

This bodes well for Debian Accessibility.

Thanks,

David

On Fri, Dec 31, 2021 at 12:34 PM Samuel Thibault 
wrote:

> D.J.J. Ring, Jr., le ven. 31 déc. 2021 12:11:14 -0500, a ecrit:
> > Obviously, we are more civilized on this email list, but it seems that
> > Debian-Boot is the wild and wooly frontier where new suggestions are met
> with
> > barbs and malice.
>
> ? No. Really no.
>
> The beep-at-installer-boot-menu took some exchanges to weigh the pros
> and cons, sure, but it went completely civilized.
>
> And...
>
> when some user asked debian-boot for removing the
> beep-at-installer-boot-menu, it's debian-boot people themselves who
> calmly explained why the feature shall remain.
>
> No need to be pushy, one just needs to explain the situation and discuss
> possible solutions until a compromise is found.
>
> Samuel
>
>

Re: Iggdrasil, a new amazing screenreader

[Samuel Thibault]

D.J.J. Ring, Jr., le ven. 31 déc. 2021 12:25:59 -0500, a ecrit:
> One way would be to have a text file pointing out the accessibility features -
> perhaps similar to Didier Spaier's excellent slint-docs

Perhaps we can just dump the wiki page

http://wiki.debian.org/accessibility

somewhere in the installed system?

Again, it's just a matter of somebody taking the time to work out a
solution that is reasonable, and implement it or get somebody to
implement it.

Samuel

Re: Iggdrasil, a new amazing screenreader

[Samuel Thibault]

D.J.J. Ring, Jr., le ven. 31 déc. 2021 12:11:14 -0500, a ecrit:
> Obviously, we are more civilized on this email list, but it seems that
> Debian-Boot is the wild and wooly frontier where new suggestions are met with
> barbs and malice.

? No. Really no.

The beep-at-installer-boot-menu took some exchanges to weigh the pros
and cons, sure, but it went completely civilized.

And...

when some user asked debian-boot for removing the
beep-at-installer-boot-menu, it's debian-boot people themselves who
calmly explained why the feature shall remain.

No need to be pushy, one just needs to explain the situation and discuss
possible solutions until a compromise is found.

Samuel

Re: Iggdrasil, a new amazing screenreader

[Samuel Thibault]

Jeffery Mewtamer wrote:
> anyone have a link for joining the Debian Boot mailing list?

Like all Debian lists:

https://lists.debian.org/debian-boot/

Samuel

Re: Iggdrasil, a new amazing screenreader

[D.J.J. Ring, Jr.]

I'm just suggesting that a text type of network manager be initially
configured and running the very same settings that were used and were set
up by the installation program which very excellently by the way, tells you
which network connections you have, and if there is encryption on WiFi
actually elects the correct type and prompts you for the security key.

That's splendid and perfectly accessible.

The only other problem after that is telling the user that such a tool
exists!

One way would be to have a text file pointing out the accessibility
features - perhaps similar to Didier Spaier's excellent slint-docs which is
readable in console and gives "all you need to know" about accessibility
and other features might be an excellent template for such a document to be
supplied for Debian.  It truly is an excellent work and extremely helpful
to Slackware / Slint users especially those needing accessibility
features..I have no idea how Didier did it, but his slint-docs scrolls up
and down in the console just like it used to do before kernel changes made
it too labor intensive to continue its development since most users had
"graduated" to GUI and were using a terminal program.  CLI users have been
frustrated by this lack of ability ever since, but Didier has solved it in
this example of excellent accessible and complete documentation.

Best wishes and Happy New Year to all,
David

Re: Iggdrasil, a new amazing screenreader

[Jeffery Mewtamer]

I'm not convinced making mouse controls more accessible is really all
that important. The problem with some GUI applications isn't so much
the need to precisely move a cursor and click on tiny icons or in this
age where everyone assumes everyone has a smartphone, precisely tap on
tiny icons, but that some applications make clicking/tapping the tiny
icons the only way of doing things. If every icon in an application
has a corresponding keyboard command or menu entry, the need to click
tiny icons is eliminated... a universal command to bring up all of a
program's pre-defined keyboard commands would probably be handy as
well.

And it totally sucks that there's such a wide divide between the
discussion area for accessibility, and the discussion area where the
people who can address the system level issues are, and I agree it
isn't fair if Samuel is the only one acting as liaison between the
two... and honestly, this is a discussion that should probably involve
both lists... anyone have a link for joining the Debian Boot mailing
list? Because I doubt sending a message there will do any good if I'm
not on the list to recieve replies sent to the list instead of me
directly, assuming it won't just bounce my message for not being a
member.

Re: Iggdrasil, a new amazing screenreader

[Chris Orme]

Sorry, I'm flooded with emails.  Can you remove me from this list, please?


On Fri, 31 Dec 2021, at 5:11 PM, D.J.J. Ring, Jr. wrote:
> I'll introduce the discussion, I'd rather not have someone as worthy as you 
> be shot up on Debian-Boot email list.
> 
> Obviously, we are more civilized on this email list, but it seems that 
> Debian-Boot is the wild and wooly frontier where new suggestions are met with 
> barbs and malice. Sounds like a retarded group that doesn't realize the harm 
> they do, but that's typical of the 21st century and for centuries before. We 
> can only lead by example.
> 
> Best wishes,
> 
> David
> 
> On Fri, Dec 31, 2021 at 11:44 AM Samuel Thibault  wrote:
>> Hello,
>> 
>> D.J.J. Ring, Jr., le ven. 31 déc. 2021 10:12:43 -0500, a ecrit:
>> > The network-manager package should be installed by default to ANY 
>> > installation
>> 
>> Well, not "any".
>> 
>> Again, that's where *discussion* needs to be done. And not here, but
>> where such discussions belong: with the people who know about all the
>> pros and cons of the various solutions. That is,
>> debian-b...@lists.debian.org
>> 
>> I guess an answer to the concerns being raised is that we should
>> have a "textual desktop" item in the list of tasks during debian
>> installer. So that all desktop-like thingies such as network-manager get
>> installed without having to install gnome or mate, without impacting all
>> installations (embedded systems do not want desktop-like bloat).
>> 
>> Again, I'd really like *not* to have to raise such discussions myself on
>> debian-boot. Again, such things should *not* rely on just one person.
>> 
>> Samuel

Re: Iggdrasil, a new amazing screenreader

[D.J.J. Ring, Jr.]

I'll introduce the discussion, I'd rather not have someone as worthy as you
be shot up on Debian-Boot email list.

Obviously, we are more civilized on this email list, but it seems that
Debian-Boot is the wild and wooly frontier where new suggestions are met
with barbs and malice. Sounds like a retarded group that doesn't realize
the harm they do, but that's typical of the 21st century and for centuries
before. We can only lead by example.

Best wishes,

David

On Fri, Dec 31, 2021 at 11:44 AM Samuel Thibault 
wrote:

> Hello,
>
> D.J.J. Ring, Jr., le ven. 31 déc. 2021 10:12:43 -0500, a ecrit:
> > The network-manager package should be installed by default to ANY
> installation
>
> Well, not "any".
>
> Again, that's where *discussion* needs to be done. And not here, but
> where such discussions belong: with the people who know about all the
> pros and cons of the various solutions. That is,
> debian-b...@lists.debian.org
>
> I guess an answer to the concerns being raised is that we should
> have a "textual desktop" item in the list of tasks during debian
> installer. So that all desktop-like thingies such as network-manager get
> installed without having to install gnome or mate, without impacting all
> installations (embedded systems do not want desktop-like bloat).
>
> Again, I'd really like *not* to have to raise such discussions myself on
> debian-boot. Again, such things should *not* rely on just one person.
>
> Samuel
>

Re: Iggdrasil, a new amazing screenreader

[Jeffery Mewtamer]

Wi-Fi can be a bit finicky, both with ensuring you have the right
driver and configuration(there really ought to be a script that scans
for available access points, presents a menu of the detected access
points, and prompts for apassword if needed instead of having to
either bake wi-fi networks into one's wpa_supplicant file or using one
tool to scan and then another to connect that you have to type the
name precisely as the scan reported without the benefit of tab
completion), but ethernet should just work and never need
configuration, even when switching between different Ethernet access
points unless you get a bit overeager trimming a system down
post-install.

And while part of me agrees that having things pre-installed and
already configured is a big part of accessibility, both in the "blind
people can use this" and "easy to use" senses of the word, I do think
it worth mentioning that the Debian Unstable repositories contain over
63,000 packages, and that's not including the contrib and non-free
repositories. Stable might have a little less, and over 11,000 of
those 63,000 are in the lib and libdevel categories their are plenty
of libs elsewhere in the repositories, and modularity means an
application might be spread out over many packages(the version of
Firefox I'm running depends on 32 packages, most of which probably
have dependencies of their own), so the true number of available apps
is much lower than the total number of packages, but there's only so
much that can fit on a single CD/DVD, and only so many options a net
installer can offer without overwhelming all but the most particular
users, and its hard to hit that sweet spot where the installed system
is lean but doesn't require manual configuration of basic things and
is full-featured without being bloated with many packages most users
will never use.

Admittedly, "Just works" configuration of a computer's internet
connection seems pretty darn basic, especially if you're using the net
installer... but at the same time, the base system requiring manual
configuration doesn't seem unreasonable and while it's been a while
since I've done a clean install of vanilla Debian, I could imagine it
being easier than it should be to miss whatever handles
autoconfiguration of the network if you don't accept the defaults at
the install additional packages step(which is probably most console
users since I believe the default includes whichever Desktop came on
your install disc(if using one of the variants of Debian CD1) or
whichever desktop is Debian's default(if using the net installer or
the DVD), especially since I recall some of the non-desktop options on
the list of package bundles to install not being that
self-explanatory.

Re: Iggdrasil, a new amazing screenreader

[Samuel Thibault]

Hello,

D.J.J. Ring, Jr., le ven. 31 déc. 2021 10:12:43 -0500, a ecrit:
> The network-manager package should be installed by default to ANY installation

Well, not "any".

Again, that's where *discussion* needs to be done. And not here, but
where such discussions belong: with the people who know about all the
pros and cons of the various solutions. That is,
debian-b...@lists.debian.org

I guess an answer to the concerns being raised is that we should
have a "textual desktop" item in the list of tasks during debian
installer. So that all desktop-like thingies such as network-manager get
installed without having to install gnome or mate, without impacting all
installations (embedded systems do not want desktop-like bloat).

Again, I'd really like *not* to have to raise such discussions myself on
debian-boot. Again, such things should *not* rely on just one person.

Samuel

Re: Iggdrasil, a new amazing screenreader

[Jude DaShiell]

gnome, the 800 pound gorilla of desktop systems.  Pandemic memory prices
have gone up and lighter memory systemsmay not be able to take a visit
from our gorilla.


On Fri, 31 Dec 2021, john doe wrote:

> On 12/31/2021 4:12 PM, D.J.J. Ring, Jr. wrote:
> > The network-manager package should be installed by default to ANY
> > installation of Debian perhaps even along with the basic system prior to
> > software selection - so that using the undocumented "!" software selection
> > (it should be documented right in the installer itself to produce a working
> > command line networking system!
> >
>
> In headless, there is no need to use nmcli to configure the network,
> 'systemd-network' '/etc/network/interfaces' are some possibilities.
>
> The utility is generaly pulled as an dependency.
>
> > But your saying that even with network-manager package installed, it has to
> > be configured to run! Not very accessible. Installation should install the
> > package and at least ask the user if he wants it started, or better yet,
> > start it and have it ready for use with the commands given to disable or
> > stop it.
> >
>
> This is already the case, nmcli is an dependency of Gnnome/ for example.
> For Mate, it makes less sense as you have other means to configure it.
>
> --
> John Doe
>
>
>

Re: Iggdrasil, a new amazing screenreader

[Jude DaShiell]

Mouse accessibility stinks no matter on what operating system it exists.
Icons are too small too numerous on a screen and haven't got standard
screen positions either.  If those three problems could be fixed then
mouse accessibility would get workable.
Say putting at most 9 mouse icons on any given screen arranged like a
tic-tac-toe board with standard positioning based on the tic-tac-toe board
where the icons were large enough so a mouse would have to be moved  1.5
inches to go through an icon with 1 inch between icons I think this could
work.  Maybe 11 icons on a screen as maximum but one would be previous and
another would be ok or next and those ought to be well separated from the
menu icons lower on the screen.



On Fri, 31 Dec 2021, D.J.J. Ring, Jr. wrote:

> John,
>
> You say in Mate we have other methods of configuring it.  I'm talking about
> configuring it in console, even if MATE is installed.
>
> What is that way of configuring, you don't mean starting up MATE which is
> what I wanted to avoid.
>
> It's like starting up a major load on the computer (MATE) just to be able
> to turn the Internet on.
>
> Also if that is the only way, it brings up the difficulty in accessing the
> MATE Network settings using the mouse. I dislike playing "Pin the Mouse
> Tail on the Icon" game.  It's frustrating.
>
> Regards,
> David
>
>
> On Fri, Dec 31, 2021 at 10:27 AM john doe  wrote:
>
> > On 12/31/2021 4:12 PM, D.J.J. Ring, Jr. wrote:
> > > The network-manager package should be installed by default to ANY
> > > installation of Debian perhaps even along with the basic system prior to
> > > software selection - so that using the undocumented "!" software
> > selection
> > > (it should be documented right in the installer itself to produce a
> > working
> > > command line networking system!
> > >
> >
> > In headless, there is no need to use nmcli to configure the network,
> > 'systemd-network' '/etc/network/interfaces' are some possibilities.
> >
> > The utility is generaly pulled as an dependency.
> >
> > > But your saying that even with network-manager package installed, it has
> > to
> > > be configured to run! Not very accessible. Installation should install
> > the
> > > package and at least ask the user if he wants it started, or better yet,
> > > start it and have it ready for use with the commands given to disable or
> > > stop it.
> > >
> >
> > This is already the case, nmcli is an dependency of Gnnome/ for example.
> > For Mate, it makes less sense as you have other means to configure it.
> >
> > --
> > John Doe
> >
> >
>

Re: Iggdrasil, a new amazing screenreader

[D.J.J. Ring, Jr.]

John,

You say in Mate we have other methods of configuring it.  I'm talking about
configuring it in console, even if MATE is installed.

What is that way of configuring, you don't mean starting up MATE which is
what I wanted to avoid.

It's like starting up a major load on the computer (MATE) just to be able
to turn the Internet on.

Also if that is the only way, it brings up the difficulty in accessing the
MATE Network settings using the mouse. I dislike playing "Pin the Mouse
Tail on the Icon" game.  It's frustrating.

Regards,
David


On Fri, Dec 31, 2021 at 10:27 AM john doe  wrote:

> On 12/31/2021 4:12 PM, D.J.J. Ring, Jr. wrote:
> > The network-manager package should be installed by default to ANY
> > installation of Debian perhaps even along with the basic system prior to
> > software selection - so that using the undocumented "!" software
> selection
> > (it should be documented right in the installer itself to produce a
> working
> > command line networking system!
> >
>
> In headless, there is no need to use nmcli to configure the network,
> 'systemd-network' '/etc/network/interfaces' are some possibilities.
>
> The utility is generaly pulled as an dependency.
>
> > But your saying that even with network-manager package installed, it has
> to
> > be configured to run! Not very accessible. Installation should install
> the
> > package and at least ask the user if he wants it started, or better yet,
> > start it and have it ready for use with the commands given to disable or
> > stop it.
> >
>
> This is already the case, nmcli is an dependency of Gnnome/ for example.
> For Mate, it makes less sense as you have other means to configure it.
>
> --
> John Doe
>
>

Re: Iggdrasil, a new amazing screenreader

[john doe]

On 12/31/2021 4:12 PM, D.J.J. Ring, Jr. wrote:

The network-manager package should be installed by default to ANY
installation of Debian perhaps even along with the basic system prior to
software selection - so that using the undocumented "!" software selection
(it should be documented right in the installer itself to produce a working
command line networking system!



In headless, there is no need to use nmcli to configure the network,
'systemd-network' '/etc/network/interfaces' are some possibilities.

The utility is generaly pulled as an dependency.


But your saying that even with network-manager package installed, it has to
be configured to run! Not very accessible. Installation should install the
package and at least ask the user if he wants it started, or better yet,
start it and have it ready for use with the commands given to disable or
stop it.



This is already the case, nmcli is an dependency of Gnnome/ for example.
For Mate, it makes less sense as you have other means to configure it.

--
John Doe

Re: Iggdrasil, a new amazing screenreader

[D.J.J. Ring, Jr.]

The network-manager package should be installed by default to ANY
installation of Debian perhaps even along with the basic system prior to
software selection - so that using the undocumented "!" software selection
(it should be documented right in the installer itself to produce a working
command line networking system!

But your saying that even with network-manager package installed, it has to
be configured to run! Not very accessible. Installation should install the
package and at least ask the user if he wants it started, or better yet,
start it and have it ready for use with the commands given to disable or
stop it.

Accessibility is not having the tools needed and not telling anyone about
them, it's having the tools available and ready to use!

David

On Fri, Dec 31, 2021, 02:41 Jude DaShiell  wrote:

> nmcli is in the network-manager package.  Once the package is downloaded,
> network-manager has to be started before nmcli and nmtui can be used.
>
>
> On Fri, 31 Dec 2021, john doe wrote:
>
> > On 12/31/2021 6:51 AM, D.J.J. Ring, Jr. wrote:
> > > Debian desperately needs a console network manager like Slackware's
> nmcli
> >
> > Actually, I have set up a bridge using 'nmcli' on Bullseye.
> >
> > --
> > John Doe
> >
> >
> >
>
>

Re: Fwd: Iggdrasil, a new amazing screenreader

[Devin Prater]

I mean, I use Emacs and such, but I'm trying to get into the CLI more too.
That and Python. I just wish Debian already had Python 3.10, but I was able
to compile it from source. I'm doing this on a Chromebook through Crostini,
so I have to use Stable, since the bridge between Crostini and ChromeOS,
for sound and such, doesn't work work unstable or testing. Although, I do
have Orca's Backport.  I'm learning more about compiling packages, and I
can run Emacs with Emacspeak just fine.

Screen is a really good tool if you want to work in a single console and
such. I didn't know about screenrc, but I'll look into that. I'm coming to
love the man command. Before, I'd just used Info, but now I know the value
of man.
Devin Prater
r.d.t.pra...@gmail.com




On Fri, Dec 31, 2021 at 8:44 AM D.J.J. Ring, Jr.  wrote:

> Adding the word "exclusive" makes it clear to me, just as this reply was
> with that word added.
>
> Booting into the CLI reminds the user of the simple but tremendous power
> of their computer that lies underneath the beautiful graphical interface,
> poised to instantly respond to the keystrokes of their fingers.
>
> Humbling really.
>
> Thanks,
>
> David
>
>
>
> On Fri, Dec 31, 2021, 05:53 Didier Spaier  wrote:
>
>> David,
>>
>> I meant that nobody should have an exclusive choice, i.e. anyone should be
>> allowed to use both a console and a graphical environment (possibly at
>> the same
>> time), not being limited to the mode of operation the used first after
>> booting.
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Didier
>>
>> On 31/12/2021 02:16, D.J.J. Ring, Jr. wrote:
>> > Didier,
>> >
>> > I didn't understand this:
>> >
>> > "I agree that nobody should have to choose between a text interface
>> and a
>> > graphical one (and between Braille and speech). As an aside mpv is
>> perfectly
>> > able to display videos in a console, but I digress."
>> >
>> >
>> > I'm guessing you might be saying nobody should be forced to either have
>> to use a
>> > test or graphical interface, because that's exactly what you have done
>> in your
>> > work on Slint. Users can specify which Desktop - MATE and KDE are
>> standard as is
>> > just a text log on.
>> >
>> > Which is perfect for those of us who either prefer text console or have
>> such low
>> > powered computers that working in Graphic User Interface is only used
>> when
>> > necessary because screen drawing just takes so long.
>> >
>> > If so your quote could be:
>> >
>> > I agree that everybody should have a choice between a text interface
>> and a
>> > graphical one (and between Braille and speech). As an aside mpv is
>> perfectly
>> > able to displays videos in a console, but I digress.
>> >
>> > I personally know many who value Slint's ability to boot directly into
>> console
>> > without Xserver running as a big plus to that distro.
>> >
>> > I modify Debian by using systemctl by disabling lightdm.
>> >
>> > As root:
>> >
>> > systemctl stop lightdm
>> > systemctl disable lightdm
>> >
>> > This will cause Debian to boot into the console, and from there, I can
>> just use
>> > "startx" to go into graphical mode.
>> >
>> > Works well, and on my old computer, it's much faster.
>> >
>> > Regards,
>> > David
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>>
>>

Re: Fwd: Iggdrasil, a new amazing screenreader

[D.J.J. Ring, Jr.]

Adding the word "exclusive" makes it clear to me, just as this reply was
with that word added.

Booting into the CLI reminds the user of the simple but tremendous power of
their computer that lies underneath the beautiful graphical interface,
poised to instantly respond to the keystrokes of their fingers.

Humbling really.

Thanks,

David



On Fri, Dec 31, 2021, 05:53 Didier Spaier  wrote:

> David,
>
> I meant that nobody should have an exclusive choice, i.e. anyone should be
> allowed to use both a console and a graphical environment (possibly at the
> same
> time), not being limited to the mode of operation the used first after
> booting.
>
> Cheers,
> Didier
>
> On 31/12/2021 02:16, D.J.J. Ring, Jr. wrote:
> > Didier,
> >
> > I didn't understand this:
> >
> > "I agree that nobody should have to choose between a text interface
> and a
> > graphical one (and between Braille and speech). As an aside mpv is
> perfectly
> > able to display videos in a console, but I digress."
> >
> >
> > I'm guessing you might be saying nobody should be forced to either have
> to use a
> > test or graphical interface, because that's exactly what you have done
> in your
> > work on Slint. Users can specify which Desktop - MATE and KDE are
> standard as is
> > just a text log on.
> >
> > Which is perfect for those of us who either prefer text console or have
> such low
> > powered computers that working in Graphic User Interface is only used
> when
> > necessary because screen drawing just takes so long.
> >
> > If so your quote could be:
> >
> > I agree that everybody should have a choice between a text interface and
> a
> > graphical one (and between Braille and speech). As an aside mpv is
> perfectly
> > able to displays videos in a console, but I digress.
> >
> > I personally know many who value Slint's ability to boot directly into
> console
> > without Xserver running as a big plus to that distro.
> >
> > I modify Debian by using systemctl by disabling lightdm.
> >
> > As root:
> >
> > systemctl stop lightdm
> > systemctl disable lightdm
> >
> > This will cause Debian to boot into the console, and from there, I can
> just use
> > "startx" to go into graphical mode.
> >
> > Works well, and on my old computer, it's much faster.
> >
> > Regards,
> > David
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>

Re: Iggdrasil, a new amazing screenreader

[Didier Spaier]

Hi Mike and all,,

also you can use w3m as both a web browser and a pager, so it allows to read
documentation it text format as remote and local web pages.

You can also use lynx as Chime wrote, and allo links.

Also you can use several consoles at the same time, allowing for instance to
read the document in one and type commands in another one.

Suggested reading (mostly borrowed to SUSE, applicable to any Linux):
https://slint.fr/doc/shell_and_bash_scripts.html

Cheers,
Didier

On 31/12/2021 03:21, Chime Hart wrote:
> Well, Mike, I will hopefully answer both your questions. #1 I think there are
> ways of creating menus based on LYNX the browser, similar to what Universities
> made for students or visitors. #2 You can also use LYNX to browse or read 
> files
> on your local drive. So as an example, if you were to type lynx . you would 
> see
> names of files-and-directories in the style of a web-page. And if your 
> documents
> were in a text format, you could type lynx mike.txt  and lynx would display 
> it.
> There are certainly other ways of reading files from a command-line, but I 
> think
> as a starter, this would be best. Happy exploring.
> Chime
> 

Re: Fwd: Iggdrasil, a new amazing screenreader

[Didier Spaier]

David,

I meant that nobody should have an exclusive choice, i.e. anyone should be
allowed to use both a console and a graphical environment (possibly at the same
time), not being limited to the mode of operation the used first after booting.

Cheers,
Didier

On 31/12/2021 02:16, D.J.J. Ring, Jr. wrote:
> Didier,
> 
> I didn't understand this:
> 
> "I agree that nobody should have to choose between a text interface and a
> graphical one (and between Braille and speech). As an aside mpv is 
> perfectly
> able to display videos in a console, but I digress."
> 
> 
> I'm guessing you might be saying nobody should be forced to either have to 
> use a
> test or graphical interface, because that's exactly what you have done in your
> work on Slint. Users can specify which Desktop - MATE and KDE are standard as 
> is
> just a text log on.
> 
> Which is perfect for those of us who either prefer text console or have such 
> low
> powered computers that working in Graphic User Interface is only used when
> necessary because screen drawing just takes so long.
> 
> If so your quote could be:
> 
> I agree that everybody should have a choice between a text interface and a
> graphical one (and between Braille and speech). As an aside mpv is perfectly
> able to displays videos in a console, but I digress.
> 
> I personally know many who value Slint's ability to boot directly into console
> without Xserver running as a big plus to that distro.
> 
> I modify Debian by using systemctl by disabling lightdm.
> 
> As root:
> 
> systemctl stop lightdm
> systemctl disable lightdm
> 
> This will cause Debian to boot into the console, and from there, I can just 
> use
> "startx" to go into graphical mode.
> 
> Works well, and on my old computer, it's much faster.
> 
> Regards,
> David
> 
> 
> 
> 

Re: Iggdrasil, a new amazing screenreader

[Jude DaShiell]

The screen command will be your friend if you study it and learn to write
a good .screenrc file.


On Fri, 31 Dec 2021, john doe wrote:

> On 12/31/2021 2:37 AM, Mike Reiser wrote:
> >> I have thought about switching to just working in a console, but I worry
> >> about having to memorize a bunch of commands to do things.  in a graphical
> >> program, I can use keyboard commands to get around it mostly. Is this
> >> available in  console programs? Also, how can I have the documentation open
> >> in a web browser, so I can read it while learning the commands in the
> >> console? Thanks,
> >
>
> Yes, shortcuts in a graphical env could be aliases in the console or
> creating a shell function that does what you want.
>
> In the terminal, there is no need to use a browser as all documentation
> is available using the 'man' command.
>
> Going online might be useful if you want to research a specific
> question, have some example ...
>
>
> To me those two envs are not antagonist, the only difference between the
> CLI ('console') and a DE (desktop environment) is that with the CLI you
> can do what ever you want by providing options to a utility.
> In a grafical env, you are able to do what is  made available but in
> general you don't have access to all functionalities that the CLI offers.
>
> The advantage of Linux is that when you are stuck in a DE you always
> have the choise to fall back to the CLI!
>
> A visual environment is sometime easier and more friendly when sited
> help is needed.
>
> What suits you best is what is importent.
>
> --
> John Doe
>
>

Re: Iggdrasil, a new amazing screenreader

[Jude DaShiell]

nmcli is in the network-manager package.  Once the package is downloaded,
network-manager has to be started before nmcli and nmtui can be used.


On Fri, 31 Dec 2021, john doe wrote:

> On 12/31/2021 6:51 AM, D.J.J. Ring, Jr. wrote:
> > Debian desperately needs a console network manager like Slackware's nmcli
>
> Actually, I have set up a bridge using 'nmcli' on Bullseye.
>
> --
> John Doe
>
>
>

Re: Iggdrasil, a new amazing screenreader

[john doe]

On 12/31/2021 6:51 AM, D.J.J. Ring, Jr. wrote:

Debian desperately needs a console network manager like Slackware's nmcli


Actually, I have set up a bridge using 'nmcli' on Bullseye.

--
John Doe

Re: Iggdrasil, a new amazing screenreader

[Jordan Livesey]

the 2 I know of are nmcli and iwctl

On Fri, Dec 31, 2021 at 7:01 AM john doe  wrote:

> On 12/31/2021 2:37 AM, Mike Reiser wrote:
> >> I have thought about switching to just working in a console, but I
> worry about having to memorize a bunch of commands to do things.  in a
> graphical program, I can use keyboard commands to get around it mostly. Is
> this available in  console programs? Also, how can I have the documentation
> open in a web browser, so I can read it while learning the commands in the
> console? Thanks,
> >
>
> Yes, shortcuts in a graphical env could be aliases in the console or
> creating a shell function that does what you want.
>
> In the terminal, there is no need to use a browser as all documentation
> is available using the 'man' command.
>
> Going online might be useful if you want to research a specific
> question, have some example ...
>
>
> To me those two envs are not antagonist, the only difference between the
> CLI ('console') and a DE (desktop environment) is that with the CLI you
> can do what ever you want by providing options to a utility.
> In a grafical env, you are able to do what is  made available but in
> general you don't have access to all functionalities that the CLI offers.
>
> The advantage of Linux is that when you are stuck in a DE you always
> have the choise to fall back to the CLI!
>
> A visual environment is sometime easier and more friendly when sited
> help is needed.
>
> What suits you best is what is importent.
>
> --
> John Doe
>
>

Re: Iggdrasil, a new amazing screenreader

[john doe]

On 12/31/2021 2:37 AM, Mike Reiser wrote:

I have thought about switching to just working in a console, but I worry about 
having to memorize a bunch of commands to do things.  in a graphical program, I 
can use keyboard commands to get around it mostly. Is this available in  
console programs? Also, how can I have the documentation open in a web browser, 
so I can read it while learning the commands in the console? Thanks,




Yes, shortcuts in a graphical env could be aliases in the console or
creating a shell function that does what you want.

In the terminal, there is no need to use a browser as all documentation
is available using the 'man' command.

Going online might be useful if you want to research a specific
question, have some example ...


To me those two envs are not antagonist, the only difference between the
CLI ('console') and a DE (desktop environment) is that with the CLI you
can do what ever you want by providing options to a utility.
In a grafical env, you are able to do what is  made available but in
general you don't have access to all functionalities that the CLI offers.

The advantage of Linux is that when you are stuck in a DE you always
have the choise to fall back to the CLI!

A visual environment is sometime easier and more friendly when sited
help is needed.

What suits you best is what is importent.

--
John Doe

Re: Iggdrasil, a new amazing screenreader

[D.J.J. Ring, Jr.]

Debian desperately needs a console network manager like Slackware's nmcli
or nmtui which is curses but easier to use if you have some sight.  Debian
Bullseye has ceni which is excellent for managing networks including WiFi
networks.

I have problems remembering all the ifup commands to do it completely
manually.  If it were installed by default, then an install using the !
instead of package installation would give the console only user the
ability to install a console only system that has access to WiFi networks,
of course they would probably have to use the Debian Firmware installer
especially with laptops, but the firmware collection is excellent.

Slackware has nmcli which is text only and nmtui with is curses - but both
work very well with console, but Debian has no text only easy way to
connect to WiFi in console.

Regards,
David

On Fri, Dec 31, 2021 at 12:16 AM Jordan Livesey 
wrote:

> That is why when you are just starting out on the console, and you know
> how to set up speak up,  the keyboard shortcuts for that only require you
> to hold down the caps lock key by default, when ever I do an install I
> always turn the volume up with caps lock and 2 to turn up the volume, but
> as a rule of thumb, I generally don’t need to use it as the terminal gets
> all the work I need done, a simple sudo aptitude update and sudo aptitude
> upgrade if needed if I check for updates which I do regularly
>
> > On 31 Dec 2021, at 03:14, Jeffery Mewtamer  wrote:
> >
> > Even with console applications, there are various toolkits that allow
> > for the creation of pseudo-GUIs and many such applications do have a
> > number of keyboard commands, though they don't always adhere to the
> > conventions shared by most GUI applications(e.g. in the Nano text
> > editor, save is ctrl+o, not ctrl+s, cut and paste are ctrl+k and
> > ctrl+u instead of ctrl+x and ctrl+v, and find is ctrl+w instead of
> > ctrl+f)
> >
> > Most such text-only GUIs are built on ncurses, and there are packages
> > like dialog that allow shell scripts to  to display dialog boxes and
> > scrollable menus.
> >
> > I also think it worth noting that, on most distros, there isn't just
> > one console, but several and that you can easily switch between them
> > with just a couple of key presses.
> >
> > As a general rule, each console is reference by the abbreviation tty
> > followed by a number and if you're in one console, you switch to a
> > different one by pressing alt+ the function key corresponding to the
> > number of the console you want. The number varies from distro to
> > distro, but 12 is common, one for each function key on a standard
> > keyboard, though I understand setups with 24 and a distinction made
> > between left alt and right alt when switching aren't uncommon. If
> > you're running an Xserver, it takes up one of the consoles, and if
> > you're in the GUI, you typically need to do trl+alt+fn to break out of
> > the GUI and into the text consoles. If you start x manually, the
> > xserver will be on whichever console you were on when you invoked
> > startx, but if your system boots into the desktop automatically, which
> > console is used for the GUI varies from distro to distro, though I
> > believe tty1 and tty6 or tty7 are the most common.
> >
> > I usually have a stripped down Xserver running Firefox+Orca on tty1
> > and use tty2+ for everything else... at the moment, I have:
> >
> > Firefox+Orca running on tty1
> > aumix(a audio mixer) opened in tty2
> > A text file open in nano on tty3
> > tty4 at the command prompt in the directory where the text file that's
> > open in tty3 is located, for easily running wc to get word count of
> > the file without having to close and reopen my editor or if I need to
> > pull up a different file to reference something.
> > tty5 is open to the directory where Firefox dumps all of my downloads.
> >
> > and from Firefox, I just use ctrl+alt+F2-F5 to jump to aumix, the open
> > text file, the directory where the file is saved, or my downloads
> > directory, and can switch between any of those text consoles with just
> > alt+a function key.
> >
> > And while I haven't use them, there are utilities like screen and some
> > others to facilitate multi-tasking in a single console.
> >
> > And if things are properly configured, switching between the console
> > running X and one of the text consoles should seamlessly switch
> > between Orca and your console screen reader, though this can sometimes
> > be tricky to get working right.
> >
>
>

Re: Iggdrasil, a new amazing screenreader

[Jordan Livesey]

That is why when you are just starting out on the console, and you know how to 
set up speak up,  the keyboard shortcuts for that only require you to hold down 
the caps lock key by default, when ever I do an install I always turn the 
volume up with caps lock and 2 to turn up the volume, but as a rule of thumb, I 
generally don’t need to use it as the terminal gets all the work I need done, a 
simple sudo aptitude update and sudo aptitude upgrade if needed if I check for 
updates which I do regularly

> On 31 Dec 2021, at 03:14, Jeffery Mewtamer  wrote:
> 
> Even with console applications, there are various toolkits that allow
> for the creation of pseudo-GUIs and many such applications do have a
> number of keyboard commands, though they don't always adhere to the
> conventions shared by most GUI applications(e.g. in the Nano text
> editor, save is ctrl+o, not ctrl+s, cut and paste are ctrl+k and
> ctrl+u instead of ctrl+x and ctrl+v, and find is ctrl+w instead of
> ctrl+f)
> 
> Most such text-only GUIs are built on ncurses, and there are packages
> like dialog that allow shell scripts to  to display dialog boxes and
> scrollable menus.
> 
> I also think it worth noting that, on most distros, there isn't just
> one console, but several and that you can easily switch between them
> with just a couple of key presses.
> 
> As a general rule, each console is reference by the abbreviation tty
> followed by a number and if you're in one console, you switch to a
> different one by pressing alt+ the function key corresponding to the
> number of the console you want. The number varies from distro to
> distro, but 12 is common, one for each function key on a standard
> keyboard, though I understand setups with 24 and a distinction made
> between left alt and right alt when switching aren't uncommon. If
> you're running an Xserver, it takes up one of the consoles, and if
> you're in the GUI, you typically need to do trl+alt+fn to break out of
> the GUI and into the text consoles. If you start x manually, the
> xserver will be on whichever console you were on when you invoked
> startx, but if your system boots into the desktop automatically, which
> console is used for the GUI varies from distro to distro, though I
> believe tty1 and tty6 or tty7 are the most common.
> 
> I usually have a stripped down Xserver running Firefox+Orca on tty1
> and use tty2+ for everything else... at the moment, I have:
> 
> Firefox+Orca running on tty1
> aumix(a audio mixer) opened in tty2
> A text file open in nano on tty3
> tty4 at the command prompt in the directory where the text file that's
> open in tty3 is located, for easily running wc to get word count of
> the file without having to close and reopen my editor or if I need to
> pull up a different file to reference something.
> tty5 is open to the directory where Firefox dumps all of my downloads.
> 
> and from Firefox, I just use ctrl+alt+F2-F5 to jump to aumix, the open
> text file, the directory where the file is saved, or my downloads
> directory, and can switch between any of those text consoles with just
> alt+a function key.
> 
> And while I haven't use them, there are utilities like screen and some
> others to facilitate multi-tasking in a single console.
> 
> And if things are properly configured, switching between the console
> running X and one of the text consoles should seamlessly switch
> between Orca and your console screen reader, though this can sometimes
> be tricky to get working right.
> 

Re: Iggdrasil, a new amazing screenreader

[Jeffery Mewtamer]

Even with console applications, there are various toolkits that allow
for the creation of pseudo-GUIs and many such applications do have a
number of keyboard commands, though they don't always adhere to the
conventions shared by most GUI applications(e.g. in the Nano text
editor, save is ctrl+o, not ctrl+s, cut and paste are ctrl+k and
ctrl+u instead of ctrl+x and ctrl+v, and find is ctrl+w instead of
ctrl+f)

Most such text-only GUIs are built on ncurses, and there are packages
like dialog that allow shell scripts to  to display dialog boxes and
scrollable menus.

I also think it worth noting that, on most distros, there isn't just
one console, but several and that you can easily switch between them
with just a couple of key presses.

As a general rule, each console is reference by the abbreviation tty
followed by a number and if you're in one console, you switch to a
different one by pressing alt+ the function key corresponding to the
number of the console you want. The number varies from distro to
distro, but 12 is common, one for each function key on a standard
keyboard, though I understand setups with 24 and a distinction made
between left alt and right alt when switching aren't uncommon. If
you're running an Xserver, it takes up one of the consoles, and if
you're in the GUI, you typically need to do trl+alt+fn to break out of
the GUI and into the text consoles. If you start x manually, the
xserver will be on whichever console you were on when you invoked
startx, but if your system boots into the desktop automatically, which
console is used for the GUI varies from distro to distro, though I
believe tty1 and tty6 or tty7 are the most common.

I usually have a stripped down Xserver running Firefox+Orca on tty1
and use tty2+ for everything else... at the moment, I have:

Firefox+Orca running on tty1
aumix(a audio mixer) opened in tty2
A text file open in nano on tty3
tty4 at the command prompt in the directory where the text file that's
open in tty3 is located, for easily running wc to get word count of
the file without having to close and reopen my editor or if I need to
pull up a different file to reference something.
tty5 is open to the directory where Firefox dumps all of my downloads.

and from Firefox, I just use ctrl+alt+F2-F5 to jump to aumix, the open
text file, the directory where the file is saved, or my downloads
directory, and can switch between any of those text consoles with just
alt+a function key.

And while I haven't use them, there are utilities like screen and some
others to facilitate multi-tasking in a single console.

And if things are properly configured, switching between the console
running X and one of the text consoles should seamlessly switch
between Orca and your console screen reader, though this can sometimes
be tricky to get working right.

Re: Iggdrasil, a new amazing screenreader

[David J. J. Ring, Jr.]

Mike,

When using a console at least four more consoles are available for simultaneous 
use. I can use one, then use 
Alt+Left Arrow (or Alt+Right Arrow) to go to the next console.

I just use console for either email using either mutt (as I am doing now) or 
alpine, or for browsing the web 
using a combination of console browsers, like lynx, w3m, elinks, unfortunately 
elinks stopped supporting java 
which means that I can no longer access gmail in html web page, but I can get 
my email in alpine or mutt.

Although I can still see, I consider the number of pictures these days to be 
just a clogging my Internet bandwidth,
so w3m is perfect for browsing - it shows pictures but not video or the spam 
type of pictures.

I can also access many news sites using w3m that are blocked by a paywall if I 
were using firefox or chrome - or 
Debian equivalents but I can read the news sites for free with a text browser.

If I need to find the commands for something, I open another console, Debian 
and most Linux distros have 6 
consoles to use. If you are running the graphical user interface, one of the 
consoles - usually either console 1 
or console 6 is used for the graphic user interface.  So you still have 5 more 
consoles to use.

I am using console 2 to write this, I have console 3 runnning a command line 
program called surfraw which is 
very powerful and can search many things very easily.  It installs (if you 
configure it to do this) short cuts 
called elvi.  If you've configured it to install those short cuts, I can type 
"google chess" it will open up a 
google search for "chess".  If I use "debpackages" instead "debpackages 
browser" I will see a search at Debian 
Packages with all the results from a text search for "browser".  It's really 
time saving.

If you install surfraw, read the manual with "man surfraw" and you will learn 
how to see the names of the elvi and 
what they can do.

I find using the graphical user interface very frustrating because of not being 
able to see where the mouse is.
With text mode programs it is ALL keyboard, all of it, but mouse can be used if 
you wish.

Best wishes,
David


  Mike Reiser wrote: Thu, Dec 30, 2021 at 07:37:02PM -0600

> > I have thought about switching to just working in a console, but I worry 
> > about having to memorize a bunch of 
> > commands to do things.  in a graphical program, I can use keyboard commands 
> > to get around it mostly. Is this 
> > available in console programs? Also, how can I have the documentation open 
> > in a web browser, so I can read 
> > it while learning the commands in the console? Thanks,
> Mike

Re: Iggdrasil, a new amazing screenreader

[Chime Hart]

Well, Mike, I will hopefully answer both your questions. #1 I think there are 
ways of creating menus based on LYNX the browser, similar to what Universities 
made for students or visitors. #2 You can also use LYNX to browse or read files 
on your local drive. So as an example, if you were to type lynx . you would see 
names of files-and-directories in the style of a web-page. And if your 
documents were in a text format, you could type lynx mike.txt  and lynx would 
display it. There are certainly other ways of reading files from a 
command-line, but I think as a starter, this would be best. Happy exploring.

Chime

Re: Iggdrasil, a new amazing screenreader

[Mike Reiser]

> I have thought about switching to just working in a console, but I worry 
> about having to memorize a bunch of commands to do things.  in a graphical 
> program, I can use keyboard commands to get around it mostly. Is this 
> available in  console programs? Also, how can I have the documentation open 
> in a web browser, so I can read it while learning the commands in the 
> console? Thanks,
Mike

Re: Fwd: Iggdrasil, a new amazing screenreader

[D.J.J. Ring, Jr.]

Didier,

I didn't understand this:

"I agree that nobody should have to choose between a text interface and a
> graphical one (and between Braille and speech). As an aside mpv is
> perfectly
> able to display videos in a console, but I digress."


I'm guessing you might be saying nobody should be forced to either have to
use a test or graphical interface, because that's exactly what you have
done in your work on Slint. Users can specify which Desktop - MATE and KDE
are standard as is just a text log on.

Which is perfect for those of us who either prefer text console or have
such low powered computers that working in Graphic User Interface is only
used when necessary because screen drawing just takes so long.

If so your quote could be:

I agree that everybody should have a choice between a text interface and a
graphical one (and between Braille and speech). As an aside mpv is perfectly
able to displays videos in a console, but I digress.

I personally know many who value Slint's ability to boot directly into
console without Xserver running as a big plus to that distro.

I modify Debian by using systemctl by disabling lightdm.

As root:

systemctl stop lightdm
systemctl disable lightdm

This will cause Debian to boot into the console, and from there, I can just
use "startx" to go into graphical mode.

Works well, and on my old computer, it's much faster.

Regards,
David

Re: Fwd: Iggdrasil, a new amazing screenreader

[Didier Spaier]

I meant "as the tune is only played"

On 31/12/2021 01:57, Didier Spaier wrote:
> it actually creates a sub-menu per boot entry, as the tune is
> only pressed when you press Enter.

Re: Fwd: Iggdrasil, a new amazing screenreader

[Didier Spaier]

Hi Chime,

indeed GRUB can play tunes. I am guilty of a program making use of that to
create and edit a boot menu, boot entries from top to bottom getting one more
note. Only caveat: it actually creates a sub-menu per boot entry, as the tune is
only pressed when you press Enter.  

I called it the EFI Multi-boot Menu Maker or EFI3M. It is available here:
https://github.com/DidierSpaier/EFI3M

However, a simpler solution is to use grub-emu, which displays an accessible
"fake" boot menu in a running system, with exactly the same layout and content
as the one that GRUB will display after rebooting.

On 31/12/2021 00:24, Chime Hart wrote:
> Well Martin-and-All, considering a PC-speaker gives a boop when a boot menu
> appears, couldn't more be done to take advantage of that? I mean, at very 
> least,
> have different amount of beeps as we up-and-down arrow. Obviously for Hams, CW
> would be an option, but I don't know what any actual words would sound like 
> in a
> pc-speaker? In my laptop that boop plays in the sound-card. I remember there 
> was
> a script, I think something like a toones which played some sort of music on
> bootup. Also, the Jupitor distro had rather active progress tones.
> Chime
> 

Re: Fwd: Iggdrasil, a new amazing screenreader

[Didier Spaier]

Martin, you made my day with your story about the 6800-base microcomputer.

I used a microcomputer for the first time circa 1978 (not sure an Olivetti
Programma 101 with external magnetic cards to store programs and data that I
used previously would be considered a computer nowadays).

This machine was equipped with a keyboard, a screen, two 8 inches floppy disks
readers an a 10 MB hard disk. It had an Inter 8080 inside with 64 KB of RAM.

People seeing it on my desk thought it was kind of a terminal and often asked:
"but where is the computer". You are not alone, my friend .

I agree that nobody should have to choose between a text interface and a
graphical one (and between Braille and speech). As an aside mpv is perfectly
able to displays videos in a console, but I digress.

Oh, and about OCR I highly recommend the Lios software, which associated to
Tesseract (or Cuneiform) can manage scanning and recognizing, recognize images
also in a pdf file or taken by the computer's camera, speak the recognized text
with espeak-ng and store an audio recording in wav of mp3 format, relying on
speech-dispatcher and any of the associated speech synthesizers.

Cheers,
Didier

On 31/12/2021 00:02, Martin McCormick wrote:
> I've been following this sometimes-difficult discussion intently
> as it goes to the heart of what computer users who happen to be
> blind deal with on a daily basis especially when things go wrong.
> How much insult can your working environment take before you
> simply can't rescue what's there without either blowing the whole
> thing away for a fresh install, getting somebody sighted to watch
> the screen at 3:00 on a Sunday morning while you poke around,
> trying to get the system to boot again.
> 
>   We've got the same darn problem today that I first
> encountered the first time I ever laid hands on a microcomputer
> which was in 1977 or so.
> 
>   I got to go to a presentation by the University of
> Houston, Clear Lake City which was given at Oklahoma State
> University.  I was a graduate student then and one of my
> advisors got me a ticket to attend.
> 
>   My knowledge then was severely limited to say the least
> and I even remember asking the professor who gave the
> demonstration whether this 6800-base microcomputer was actually
> connected to a big main-frame on campus or if it was the whole
> thing.
> 
>   He was very nice about it all and said it was the whole
> computer, not connected to anything else.
> 
>   The box probably had only a few KB of ram in it, 8 big
> toggle switches across the front of it and probably a pair of
> 7-segment LED readouts for the display.
> 
>   No!  It wasn't accessible but it could have been made
> that way if someone connected an extra device to the
> seven-segment display drivers.
> 
>   It's the same darn problem we have now only in it's
> nascent form.  If only we could just read what those LED readouts
> said.
> 
>   Of course, I knew nothing about computers at that moment
> except that you could get them to play music, run machines and
> even talk if they were powerful enough and programmed by people
> who were smart at their jobs.
> 
>   In 1965 or so, I heard a radio program in which a Bell
> Labs computer had been programmed to sing "A Bicycle Built for Two"
> 
> in a male voice that sounded unearthly but was understandable.
> 
>   In High school, a teacher played that same Bell Labs
> computer singing "A Bicycle Built for two" with a musical
> accompaniment of electronic notes along with the voice.
> 
>   I wondered at the time how does one do that?
> 
>   So basically, electronic computers that can talk and or
> print Braille have been around in industrial systems for over
> sixty years and the problem is still that they have tremendous
> potential but it doesn't come by accident.  Somebody has to
> deliberately decide to solve a specific problem and whether that
> solution fits in such a way as to solve other problems, is almost
> an accident if it does.
> 
>   We still have this fixation on a visual readout as being
> the sole way to peek inside the operation of the system and
> absolutely 0 alternative methods to do so or to put it another
> way, there is no Plan B and it's an utter shock when you raise
> the issue.  Imagine, as a small child, being told that the stove
> is hot but giving your hand a third-degree burn every day because
> one insists on touching the stove even though the outcome is
> quite predictable.  We would call that mental illness anywhere
> else because most of us don't like being burned so tend to
> remember how we got that way and we figure out to, dare I say it?, 
> learn to use the mitt to pickup the hot pan and not have to go to
> the emergency room every day for the same reason.
> 
>   One day, we may have a video evaluation device that
> connects where a monitor does, reads the screen via OCR plus
> looks for a cursor blinking away somewhere on the screen 

Re: Fwd: Iggdrasil, a new amazing screenreader

[Chime Hart]

Well Martin-and-All, considering a PC-speaker gives a boop when a boot menu 
appears, couldn't more be done to take advantage of that? I mean, at very 
least, have different amount of beeps as we up-and-down arrow. Obviously for 
Hams, CW would be an option, but I don't know what any actual words would sound 
like in a pc-speaker? In my laptop that boop plays in the sound-card. I 
remember there was a script, I think something like a toones which played some 
sort of music on bootup. Also, the Jupitor distro had rather active progress 
tones.

Chime

Re: Fwd: Iggdrasil, a new amazing screenreader

[Martin McCormick]

I've been following this sometimes-difficult discussion intently
as it goes to the heart of what computer users who happen to be
blind deal with on a daily basis especially when things go wrong.
How much insult can your working environment take before you
simply can't rescue what's there without either blowing the whole
thing away for a fresh install, getting somebody sighted to watch
the screen at 3:00 on a Sunday morning while you poke around,
trying to get the system to boot again.

We've got the same darn problem today that I first
encountered the first time I ever laid hands on a microcomputer
which was in 1977 or so.

I got to go to a presentation by the University of
Houston, Clear Lake City which was given at Oklahoma State
University.  I was a graduate student then and one of my
advisors got me a ticket to attend.

My knowledge then was severely limited to say the least
and I even remember asking the professor who gave the
demonstration whether this 6800-base microcomputer was actually
connected to a big main-frame on campus or if it was the whole
thing.

He was very nice about it all and said it was the whole
computer, not connected to anything else.

The box probably had only a few KB of ram in it, 8 big
toggle switches across the front of it and probably a pair of
7-segment LED readouts for the display.

No!  It wasn't accessible but it could have been made
that way if someone connected an extra device to the
seven-segment display drivers.

It's the same darn problem we have now only in it's
nascent form.  If only we could just read what those LED readouts
said.

Of course, I knew nothing about computers at that moment
except that you could get them to play music, run machines and
even talk if they were powerful enough and programmed by people
who were smart at their jobs.

In 1965 or so, I heard a radio program in which a Bell
Labs computer had been programmed to sing "A Bicycle Built for Two"

in a male voice that sounded unearthly but was understandable.

In High school, a teacher played that same Bell Labs
computer singing "A Bicycle Built for two" with a musical
accompaniment of electronic notes along with the voice.

I wondered at the time how does one do that?

So basically, electronic computers that can talk and or
print Braille have been around in industrial systems for over
sixty years and the problem is still that they have tremendous
potential but it doesn't come by accident.  Somebody has to
deliberately decide to solve a specific problem and whether that
solution fits in such a way as to solve other problems, is almost
an accident if it does.

We still have this fixation on a visual readout as being
the sole way to peek inside the operation of the system and
absolutely 0 alternative methods to do so or to put it another
way, there is no Plan B and it's an utter shock when you raise
the issue.  Imagine, as a small child, being told that the stove
is hot but giving your hand a third-degree burn every day because
one insists on touching the stove even though the outcome is
quite predictable.  We would call that mental illness anywhere
else because most of us don't like being burned so tend to
remember how we got that way and we figure out to, dare I say it?, 
learn to use the mitt to pickup the hot pan and not have to go to
the emergency room every day for the same reason.

One day, we may have a video evaluation device that
connects where a monitor does, reads the screen via OCR plus
looks for a cursor blinking away somewhere on the screen and
gives us the functional equivalent of a screen reader or
talking/Braille monitor but until that day happens, it's a
chicken-and-egg situation.

We need the computer running for the screen reader to
work and we need a running computer to produce speech or Braille, period.

This problem will persist in almost it's original form as
long as Speech/Braille is an afterthought and the full system
must be running for this afterthought to actually work.

I have tasted what life could be like with such an
interface when I bought a device that takes VGA output and turns
it in to web cam video and feeds it in to a USB port on a
computer equipped with the appropriate driver.

I used Tesseract which is an open-source OCR application
developed by several blue-chip companies and was able to read the
output of a few PC's that have VGA ports on them.  I got
letter-perfect text and could almost have used this setup as a
screen reader except for the fact that the video constantly
changes and the system would have to continuously stream the video
in order to even begin to function like a screen reader.

This would truly be a game changer but that may be what
we need to hopefully be talking about something other than
repeating the same discussion which has been going on way too
long.

Don't misunderstand 

Re: Iggdrasil, a new amazing screenreader

[D.J.J. Ring, Jr.]

Jordan,

gmail is a provider, you can always delete previous messages, as I have
just done.

Please stay on topic, and unless your postings are related in some way to
accessibility submit them to the Thunderbird list (your comment about
changing the personal name) or here about a non-sequitur diversion to talk
about gmail being the cause of quoting old messages,Gmail isn't the cause
of that, it's standard configuration for most email clients. In a web
interface, you can simply delete the old messages, hopefully leaving enough
to have others know what your replying to .  Neither is gmail, Debian, or
your other tried distros responsible for the flooding of this list with
comments by your email account with the name changed.  It's either idiotic,
demented or juvenile, take your pick, but please stop it, you've lost all
credibility at least by me by doing this.

Best wishes,
David

On Thu, Dec 30, 2021 at 12:16 PM Jordan Livesey 
wrote:

> Unfortunately that is a downside of using gmail as it always quotes
> previous messages, currently using mail on my Mac because it has autocorrect
>

Re: Iggdrasil, a new amazing screenreader

[Jordan Livesey]

Unfortunately that is a downside of using gmail as it always quotes previous 
messages, currently using mail on my Mac because it has autocorrect

> On 30 Dec 2021, at 17:06, john doe  wrote:
> 
> On 12/30/2021 5:50 PM, Jordan Livesey wrote:
>>> On 30 Dec 2021, at 16:49, D.J.J. Ring, Jr.  wrote:
>>> 
> 
> Please take this out of here.
> 
> --
> John Doe
> 

Fwd: Iggdrasil, a new amazing screenreader

[Jeffery Mewtamer]

Sorry if anyone gets this message twice, I got tripped up by the
default reply to being a choice between the last respondant and
everyone instead of something sensible like "just the list".

I might have missed some details on account of several people quoting
huge chunks of the conversation and their short replies getting lost
in the quote walls(a string of natural 1s upon whoever thought quoting
the entirety of the last message should be the default when replying
to e-mail), but some of my thoughts on what has been said:

Jordan, I don't like to call people out by name, but while I feel like
everyone else in this thread has expressed their opinions in a way
that is respectful to others, your comments have come across as you
stating opinions as fact and that anyone who disagrees is an idiot. I
hope that isn't how you intended your comments to come across and have
just fallen into the trap of things sounding harsher in text than when
spoken, but please try to be more respectful to those who prefer a
different Linux setup from your own. And for the record, I'm a fan of
Debian as well, and if not for a few things, I'd happily switch to a
vanilla Debian setup instead of running  a highly customized
derivative. That Debian "just works" for you is great, but it doesn't
"Just Work" for me and there are others in the same boat. And I don't
think anyone wants you to go back to Windows, we just don't want to
feel like we're being insulted for thinking Debian isn't perfect and
not all other distros are garbage. Again, I hope I just grossly
misreading your comments, but that's how you've been coming across and
I don't think I'm alone iin that.

As to the original topic, my only real complaint with Orca is that its
written in Python and the overhead that introduces, and Yggdrasil
being written in Rust doesn't really address that since it's trading
an interpreted language I'm at least somewhat familiar with with one I
know absolutely nothing about. Honestly, I'd be more interested in a
project to rewrite Orca in C++ with a goal of improving performance on
weak hardware, but I understand the reasons that is unlikely to ever
happen and that I'm unusual for being so young yet finding C++ less
frustrating to write code in than Python.

Also, isn't Debian 10.1 a very old version at this point? I don't
always keep the correspondence between version numbers and codenames
straight, but didn't Debian 11 become stable several months ago at
this point? And I thought the point releases for Debian 10 were at
least up to 10.6. Is whoever is having trouble with Debian sure they
are using the latest stable release? And since Debian 9 is working for
them, I'm curious if an upgrade breaks things...

As for secure boot... I might be misinformed, but I thought that was
just a Microsoft ploy to try and prevent people from nuking
preinstalled Windows they don't want but is nearly impossible to avoid
without paying extra in favor of installing Linux... Is there any
downside to disabling Secure Boot and using Legacy Boot if you aren't
planning a Linux/Windows Dual boot?

As for Slint, while I haven't tried it due to lack of spare hardware I
can easily setup to experiment with and reluctance to try anything
that requires me to learn a new package management system, I applaud
the efforts that have gone into it and wish there was a similar
project based on Debian(The Adriane component of Knoppix comes close,
and my system is customized from Adriane Knoppix, but Knoppix has
priorities aside from just making what its based on more accessible,
and its nature as a Live Distro makes it subpar as an installed system
running from hard drive) or if there was an effort to make the scripts
Slint uses to steamline installation of accessibility tools and easily
switch between them on the fly could be downloaded and run on a
variety of distros(imagine if Debian had a "reader-switcher" package
that recommended all the major console screen readers and then let you
switch between the installed ones on the fly, and because its in
Debian, it gets inherited by the umpteen dozen distros derived from
Debian... Because, as much as I love SBL and wish it was available on
a wider selection of distros, there is at least one case where I find
espeakup's "try to read everything as it appears on screen" behavior
beneficial instead of annoying, and I'm sure there are others who
spend substantial amounts of time in the console who would enjoy that
flexibility.

Re: Iggdrasil, a new amazing screenreader

[Jordan Livesey]

Word of advice, if you are using thunderbird, you can use your full name 
instead of using the name Mozilla provides as found in the from field, hope 
this helps for those new to thunderbird

> On 30 Dec 2021, at 17:06, john doe  wrote:
> 
> On 12/30/2021 5:50 PM, Jordan Livesey wrote:
>>> On 30 Dec 2021, at 16:49, D.J.J. Ring, Jr.  wrote:
>>> 
> 
> Please take this out of here.
> 
> --
> John Doe
> 

Re: Iggdrasil, a new amazing screenreader

[john doe]

On 12/30/2021 5:50 PM, Jordan Livesey wrote:

On 30 Dec 2021, at 16:49, D.J.J. Ring, Jr.  wrote:



Please take this out of here.

--
John Doe

Re: Iggdrasil, a new amazing screenreader

[Jordan Livesey]

That’s OK then, as long as we are talking about Debian I am fine with that. 
Because I love Debian, that’s why I came here

> On 30 Dec 2021, at 16:49, D.J.J. Ring, Jr.  wrote:
> 
> Jordan,
> 
> I am discussing Debian accessibility. 
> 
> Please stop with repeated comments. Mentioning other distributions or 
> operating systems is not forbidden. You yourself just mentioned "windows and 
> ubuntu".
> 
> Please stop.
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> David
> 
> On Thu, Dec 30, 2021, 11:11 Jordan Livesey  > wrote:
> This is not a war, and I told you 
> 37356456464646464647474748376373747638726349872398732498723498723484739287348729837349872348739423423424400400400440044004400440040
>  times that this is strictly for Debian, do you want me to go back to 
> windows? No, I came here because I want to get away from windows and ubuntu

Re: Iggdrasil, a new amazing screenreader

[D.J.J. Ring, Jr.]

Jordan,

I am discussing Debian accessibility.

Please stop with repeated comments. Mentioning other distributions or
operating systems is not forbidden. You yourself just mentioned "windows
and ubuntu".

Please stop.

Thanks,

David

On Thu, Dec 30, 2021, 11:11 Jordan Livesey  wrote:

> This is not a war, and I told you
> 37356456464646464647474748376373747638726349872398732498723498723484739287348729837349872348739423423424400400400440044004400440040
> times that this is strictly for Debian, do you want me to go back to
> windows? No, I came here because I want to get away from windows and ubuntu

Re: Iggdrasil, a new amazing screenreader

[Jordan Livesey]

This is not a war, and I told you 
37356456464646464647474748376373747638726349872398732498723498723484739287348729837349872348739423423424400400400440044004400440040
 times that this is strictly for Debian, do you want me to go back to windows? 
No, I came here because I want to get away from windows and ubuntu

Re: Iggdrasil, a new amazing screenreader

[D.J.J. Ring, Jr.]

Jordan, stop with the war, you've already stated your opinion, but
hopefully you will be true to what you just said "i don't have to tell you
this but for the last time,"

Since, you didn't have to tell me this (again), don't do it. You've stated
your opinion, anything more is oppressive.

Hopefully, it will be the last time, and not an endless number of last
times.

Best wishes,

David

On Thu, Dec 30, 2021, 10:56 Jordan Livesey  wrote:

> I don't have to tell you this but for the last time, slackware isn't easy
> to use nore is anything based on slackware, which is why it doesn't support
> secure boot also, that is why debian is better
>
> On Thu, Dec 30, 2021 at 3:54 PM D.J.J. Ring, Jr.  wrote:
>
>> And I just stated that Slint was amazingly accessible, accessibility also
>> means easy to use. Slint has the features, at least with additional screen
>> readers, already installed, easy to switch on with a well documented script
>> named "speak-with".
>>
>> That's not a war or any reason for a war, it's just a compliment.
>>
>> I love Debian, although I'd like to install the 10.1 from the
>> installation media and have sound while doing so. I understand it's just my
>> hardware not everyone else's. I'm still trying to figure out the cause, but
>> with multiple problems it's difficult, but I can run Debian 10.1 as root,
>> but I don't want to! So I'll uninstall and reinstall Debian 9.
>>
>> There seems to be someone else who is flooding the list with nonsense
>> which should stop.
>>
>> Samuel, I stand by my statement, accessibility is not only ability to be
>> used, but ease of use, but that wasn't and never should be a call for a
>> war, which is what only you have mentioned.
>>
>> There, I said it. I never mentioned a war, I never called for one, I
>> simply said that it's easier to access accessibility features in Slint,
>> especially true for the newcomer. A compliment, not a wish for war.
>>
>> Best wishes,
>>
>> David
>>
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Dec 30, 2021, 06:20 Samuel Thibault  wrote:
>>
>>> Didier Spaier, le jeu. 30 déc. 2021 10:32:24 +0100, a ecrit:
>>> > On 30/12/2021 08:10, Samuel Thibault wrote:
>>> > > You also have the same choice on other distributions such as Debian.
>>> > >
>>> > > Please don't fall in a distro war, we don't need that.
>>> >
>>> > Well Samuel, you quoted me out of context, I am not the one who
>>> started the war.
>>>
>>> I didn't quote you, I quoted D.J.J. Ring.
>>>
>>> Samuel
>>>
>>>

Re: Iggdrasil, a new amazing screenreader

[Jordan Livesey]

Well if you want to be a hacker, go be my guest, because Slackware was designed 
for it, but for everyone else, Debian is the way to go, and this is a Debian 
specific mailing list, not a Slackware one

> On 30 Dec 2021, at 16:06, Devin Prater  wrote:
> 
> Dude, anyone that uses Slackware and enjoys it, enjoys it for what it is. 
> It's not your job to tell people what to use and what not to use. Some of 
> these people have been using computers, most likely, much longer than you 
> have, so can deal with compiling software, managing different package 
> managers, building compile scripts for their package managers, and generally 
> dealing with a system as... scenic as Slackware. You are not anyone's parents 
> on this list. It is a list for Linux users who enjoy using advanced software. 
> These people, in conclusion, know what they're getting into, and what they're 
> doing. If not, they'll ask for help on choosing a distribution. Also, for any 
> XKCD references, search for them on explainxkcd.org .
> 
> 
> Devin Prater
> r.d.t.pra...@gmail.com 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On Thu, Dec 30, 2021 at 9:57 AM Jordan Livesey  > wrote:
> I don't have to tell you this but for the last time, slackware isn't easy to 
> use nore is anything based on slackware, which is why it doesn't support 
> secure boot also, that is why debian is better
> 
> On Thu, Dec 30, 2021 at 3:54 PM D.J.J. Ring, Jr.  > wrote:
> And I just stated that Slint was amazingly accessible, accessibility also 
> means easy to use. Slint has the features, at least with additional screen 
> readers, already installed, easy to switch on with a well documented script 
> named "speak-with".
> 
> That's not a war or any reason for a war, it's just a compliment.
> 
> I love Debian, although I'd like to install the 10.1 from the installation 
> media and have sound while doing so. I understand it's just my hardware not 
> everyone else's. I'm still trying to figure out the cause, but with multiple 
> problems it's difficult, but I can run Debian 10.1 as root, but I don't want 
> to! So I'll uninstall and reinstall Debian 9.
> 
> There seems to be someone else who is flooding the list with nonsense which 
> should stop.
> 
> Samuel, I stand by my statement, accessibility is not only ability to be 
> used, but ease of use, but that wasn't and never should be a call for a war, 
> which is what only you have mentioned. 
> 
> There, I said it. I never mentioned a war, I never called for one, I simply 
> said that it's easier to access accessibility features in Slint, especially 
> true for the newcomer. A compliment, not a wish for war.
> 
> Best wishes,
> 
> David 
> 
> 
> 
> On Thu, Dec 30, 2021, 06:20 Samuel Thibault  > wrote:
> Didier Spaier, le jeu. 30 déc. 2021 10:32:24 +0100, a ecrit:
> > On 30/12/2021 08:10, Samuel Thibault wrote:
> > > You also have the same choice on other distributions such as Debian.
> > > 
> > > Please don't fall in a distro war, we don't need that.
> > 
> > Well Samuel, you quoted me out of context, I am not the one who started the 
> > war.
> 
> I didn't quote you, I quoted D.J.J. Ring.
> 
> Samuel
> 

Re: Iggdrasil, a new amazing screenreader

[Devin Prater]

Dude, anyone that uses Slackware and enjoys it, enjoys it for what it is.
It's not your job to tell people what to use and what not to use. Some of
these people have been using computers, most likely, much longer than you
have, so can deal with compiling software, managing different package
managers, building compile scripts for their package managers, and
generally dealing with a system as... scenic as Slackware. You are not
anyone's parents on this list. It is a list for Linux users who enjoy using
advanced software. These people, in conclusion, know what they're getting
into, and what they're doing. If not, they'll ask for help on choosing a
distribution. Also, for any XKCD references, search for them on
explainxkcd.org.


Devin Prater
r.d.t.pra...@gmail.com




On Thu, Dec 30, 2021 at 9:57 AM Jordan Livesey 
wrote:

> I don't have to tell you this but for the last time, slackware isn't easy
> to use nore is anything based on slackware, which is why it doesn't support
> secure boot also, that is why debian is better
>
> On Thu, Dec 30, 2021 at 3:54 PM D.J.J. Ring, Jr.  wrote:
>
>> And I just stated that Slint was amazingly accessible, accessibility also
>> means easy to use. Slint has the features, at least with additional screen
>> readers, already installed, easy to switch on with a well documented script
>> named "speak-with".
>>
>> That's not a war or any reason for a war, it's just a compliment.
>>
>> I love Debian, although I'd like to install the 10.1 from the
>> installation media and have sound while doing so. I understand it's just my
>> hardware not everyone else's. I'm still trying to figure out the cause, but
>> with multiple problems it's difficult, but I can run Debian 10.1 as root,
>> but I don't want to! So I'll uninstall and reinstall Debian 9.
>>
>> There seems to be someone else who is flooding the list with nonsense
>> which should stop.
>>
>> Samuel, I stand by my statement, accessibility is not only ability to be
>> used, but ease of use, but that wasn't and never should be a call for a
>> war, which is what only you have mentioned.
>>
>> There, I said it. I never mentioned a war, I never called for one, I
>> simply said that it's easier to access accessibility features in Slint,
>> especially true for the newcomer. A compliment, not a wish for war.
>>
>> Best wishes,
>>
>> David
>>
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Dec 30, 2021, 06:20 Samuel Thibault  wrote:
>>
>>> Didier Spaier, le jeu. 30 déc. 2021 10:32:24 +0100, a ecrit:
>>> > On 30/12/2021 08:10, Samuel Thibault wrote:
>>> > > You also have the same choice on other distributions such as Debian.
>>> > >
>>> > > Please don't fall in a distro war, we don't need that.
>>> >
>>> > Well Samuel, you quoted me out of context, I am not the one who
>>> started the war.
>>>
>>> I didn't quote you, I quoted D.J.J. Ring.
>>>
>>> Samuel
>>>
>>>

Re: Iggdrasil, a new amazing screenreader

[Jordan Livesey]

I don't have to tell you this but for the last time, slackware isn't easy
to use nore is anything based on slackware, which is why it doesn't support
secure boot also, that is why debian is better

On Thu, Dec 30, 2021 at 3:54 PM D.J.J. Ring, Jr.  wrote:

> And I just stated that Slint was amazingly accessible, accessibility also
> means easy to use. Slint has the features, at least with additional screen
> readers, already installed, easy to switch on with a well documented script
> named "speak-with".
>
> That's not a war or any reason for a war, it's just a compliment.
>
> I love Debian, although I'd like to install the 10.1 from the installation
> media and have sound while doing so. I understand it's just my hardware not
> everyone else's. I'm still trying to figure out the cause, but with
> multiple problems it's difficult, but I can run Debian 10.1 as root, but I
> don't want to! So I'll uninstall and reinstall Debian 9.
>
> There seems to be someone else who is flooding the list with nonsense
> which should stop.
>
> Samuel, I stand by my statement, accessibility is not only ability to be
> used, but ease of use, but that wasn't and never should be a call for a
> war, which is what only you have mentioned.
>
> There, I said it. I never mentioned a war, I never called for one, I
> simply said that it's easier to access accessibility features in Slint,
> especially true for the newcomer. A compliment, not a wish for war.
>
> Best wishes,
>
> David
>
>
>
> On Thu, Dec 30, 2021, 06:20 Samuel Thibault  wrote:
>
>> Didier Spaier, le jeu. 30 déc. 2021 10:32:24 +0100, a ecrit:
>> > On 30/12/2021 08:10, Samuel Thibault wrote:
>> > > You also have the same choice on other distributions such as Debian.
>> > >
>> > > Please don't fall in a distro war, we don't need that.
>> >
>> > Well Samuel, you quoted me out of context, I am not the one who started
>> the war.
>>
>> I didn't quote you, I quoted D.J.J. Ring.
>>
>> Samuel
>>
>>

Re: Iggdrasil, a new amazing screenreader

[D.J.J. Ring, Jr.]

And I just stated that Slint was amazingly accessible, accessibility also
means easy to use. Slint has the features, at least with additional screen
readers, already installed, easy to switch on with a well documented script
named "speak-with".

That's not a war or any reason for a war, it's just a compliment.

I love Debian, although I'd like to install the 10.1 from the installation
media and have sound while doing so. I understand it's just my hardware not
everyone else's. I'm still trying to figure out the cause, but with
multiple problems it's difficult, but I can run Debian 10.1 as root, but I
don't want to! So I'll uninstall and reinstall Debian 9.

There seems to be someone else who is flooding the list with nonsense which
should stop.

Samuel, I stand by my statement, accessibility is not only ability to be
used, but ease of use, but that wasn't and never should be a call for a
war, which is what only you have mentioned.

There, I said it. I never mentioned a war, I never called for one, I simply
said that it's easier to access accessibility features in Slint, especially
true for the newcomer. A compliment, not a wish for war.

Best wishes,

David



On Thu, Dec 30, 2021, 06:20 Samuel Thibault  wrote:

> Didier Spaier, le jeu. 30 déc. 2021 10:32:24 +0100, a ecrit:
> > On 30/12/2021 08:10, Samuel Thibault wrote:
> > > You also have the same choice on other distributions such as Debian.
> > >
> > > Please don't fall in a distro war, we don't need that.
> >
> > Well Samuel, you quoted me out of context, I am not the one who started
> the war.
>
> I didn't quote you, I quoted D.J.J. Ring.
>
> Samuel
>
>

Re: Iggdrasil, a new amazing screenreader

[Didier Spaier]

On 30/12/2021 12:20, Samuel Thibault wrote:
> Didier Spaier, le jeu. 30 déc. 2021 10:32:24 +0100, a ecrit:
>> On 30/12/2021 08:10, Samuel Thibault wrote:
>>> You also have the same choice on other distributions such as Debian.
>>>
>>> Please don't fall in a distro war, we don't need that.
>>
>> Well Samuel, you quoted me out of context, I am not the one who started the 
>> war.
> 
> I didn't quote you, I quoted D.J.J. Ring.
> 
> Samuel

Ah, OK, I stand corrected.

Didier

Re: Iggdrasil, a new amazing screenreader

[Samuel Thibault]

Didier Spaier, le jeu. 30 déc. 2021 10:32:24 +0100, a ecrit:
> On 30/12/2021 08:10, Samuel Thibault wrote:
> > You also have the same choice on other distributions such as Debian.
> > 
> > Please don't fall in a distro war, we don't need that.
> 
> Well Samuel, you quoted me out of context, I am not the one who started the 
> war.

I didn't quote you, I quoted D.J.J. Ring.

Samuel

Re: Iggdrasil, a new amazing screenreader

[Odd Martin Baanrud]

I’m tired of this discussion of what works best and all that.
Could you please continue this on e.g the blinux mailing list?
This list is for debian-related accessibility discussions, while the blinux 
list is more for general discussions like this “Iggdrasil”.

Martin

Re: Iggdrasil, a new amazing screenreader

[Jordan Livesey]

Orca is the only good screen reader, as well as fenrir and many other console 
screen readers, this project would be most useful for android x86 installers 
that have no accessible way of installing them or even include talkback, and 
yes, you can run android on your pc

> On 30 Dec 2021, at 10:19, Didier Spaier  wrote:
> 
> Hi Jordan,
> 
> Answers to some of your statements after the quotes.
> 
> On 30/12/2021 08:13, Jordan Livesey wrote:
>> chromium is only accessible on distros based on debian based
>> on a dependency that only debian has and that ubuntu also uses, fedora users
>> are out of luck here, so are arch and opensuse users
> 
> I wonder which dependency you are speaking about.
> Initially as Joanmarie Diggs wrote in:
> https://wiki.gnome.org/Projects/Orca/Chromium
> you needed to launch Chrome or Chromium with these options
> --enable-caret-browsing
> --force-renderer-accessibility
> but this is not necessary any more in recent versions of Chrome and Chromium.
> You only need insure that ACCESSIBILITY_ENABLED=1 is in your environment.
> This is true regardless of the distribution in use.
> 
> On 30/12/2021 08:58, Jordan Livesey wrote:
>> slint is not based on a newer version of slackware
> True, Slint is based on Slackware64-14.2 released in 2016. However it includes
> the most recent versions of Orca, speech dispatcher and console screen readers
> as Mate desktop, mpv and vlc, for instance.
> 
> This being said, yes I would like to re-base it on a more recent Slackware
> version, hopefully in a not too distant future. There is some hope: Patrick
> Volkerding posted that Slackware 15 could be released circa 17 January 2022.
> 
>> also, it doesn't support secure boot
> True, and I agree that we should overcome this limitation. Recent work has 
> been
> done by a Slackware contributor on this regard, and I will try to provide this
> support in Slint 15.
> 
>> I highly discourage
>> anyone from using slackware or anything based on it especially for new users
> 
> You are free to give the advice you deem appropriate. I am just guessing that
> this one is not based on a recent personal experience.
> 
>> also, linux distros that focus on accessibility tend to go out of support 
>> pretty
>> quickly
> 
> Indeed I can't guarantee that I will be able to provide support in the next 30
> years (hint: I am 72), but hope someone will take over Slint maintenance and
> support. And I am not the only one to provide support in our mailing list.
> 
> This being said, it is neither uncommon let alone unfeasible to switch to
> another distribution for any reason. I started with Mandrake.
> 
> Cheers,
> Didier
> 

Re: Iggdrasil, a new amazing screenreader

[Didier Spaier]

Hi Jordan,

Answers to some of your statements after the quotes.

On 30/12/2021 08:13, Jordan Livesey wrote:
> chromium is only accessible on distros based on debian based
> on a dependency that only debian has and that ubuntu also uses, fedora users
> are out of luck here, so are arch and opensuse users

I wonder which dependency you are speaking about.
Initially as Joanmarie Diggs wrote in:
https://wiki.gnome.org/Projects/Orca/Chromium
you needed to launch Chrome or Chromium with these options
--enable-caret-browsing
--force-renderer-accessibility
but this is not necessary any more in recent versions of Chrome and Chromium.
You only need insure that ACCESSIBILITY_ENABLED=1 is in your environment.
This is true regardless of the distribution in use.

On 30/12/2021 08:58, Jordan Livesey wrote:
> slint is not based on a newer version of slackware
True, Slint is based on Slackware64-14.2 released in 2016. However it includes
the most recent versions of Orca, speech dispatcher and console screen readers
as Mate desktop, mpv and vlc, for instance.

This being said, yes I would like to re-base it on a more recent Slackware
version, hopefully in a not too distant future. There is some hope: Patrick
Volkerding posted that Slackware 15 could be released circa 17 January 2022.

> also, it doesn't support secure boot
True, and I agree that we should overcome this limitation. Recent work has been
done by a Slackware contributor on this regard, and I will try to provide this
support in Slint 15.

> I highly discourage
> anyone from using slackware or anything based on it especially for new users

You are free to give the advice you deem appropriate. I am just guessing that
this one is not based on a recent personal experience.

> also, linux distros that focus on accessibility tend to go out of support 
> pretty
> quickly

Indeed I can't guarantee that I will be able to provide support in the next 30
years (hint: I am 72), but hope someone will take over Slint maintenance and
support. And I am not the only one to provide support in our mailing list.

This being said, it is neither uncommon let alone unfeasible to switch to
another distribution for any reason. I started with Mandrake.

Cheers,
Didier

Re: Iggdrasil, a new amazing screenreader

[Jordan Livesey]

fenrir is a pretty nice screen reader, it comes with jenux

On Thu, Dec 30, 2021 at 8:57 AM Sebastian Humenda  wrote:

> Hi all
>
> Samuel Thibault schrieb am 30.12.2021,  8:10 +0100:
> >D.J.J. Ring, Jr., le mer. 29 déc. 2021 21:56:55 -0500, a ecrit:
> >> Also with Slint, arguably the most accessible of them all, you have the
> choice
> >> of various screen readers in console:
> >>
> >> espeakup (Console screen reader connecting espeak-ng and speakup)
> >> fenrir (Modular, flexible and fast console screen reader)
> >> speechd-up (Console screen reader connecting Speech Dispatcher and
> speakup)
> >
> >You also have the same choice on other distributions such as Debian.
>
> Let me use this opportunity to thank all those who make this happen. I have
> been using Debian during my studies and now during work for more than 10
> years
> now. Real console (BRLTTY with speech) and GUI (Orca). Great documentation,
> friendly people helping out and a lot of choice. And good to hear that
> other
> distributions apparently also have good people doing the distributor's work
> ;).
>
> Regarding the original topic. I actually prefer Rust for critical
> components
> for many technical reasons and I could imagine that Python's global
> interpreter lock (GIL) is possibly not great for a screen reader either.
> However, given the limited resources on a11y, in particular on the GUI, I
> also
> would favour extending Orca. But in the end it is the spare time of people,
> and we can probably only start complaining if we actually pay them.
>
> Cheers
> Sebastian
>
>

Re: Iggdrasil, a new amazing screenreader

[Sebastian Humenda]

Hi all

Samuel Thibault schrieb am 30.12.2021,  8:10 +0100:
>D.J.J. Ring, Jr., le mer. 29 déc. 2021 21:56:55 -0500, a ecrit:
>> Also with Slint, arguably the most accessible of them all, you have the 
>> choice
>> of various screen readers in console:
>> 
>> espeakup (Console screen reader connecting espeak-ng and speakup)
>> fenrir (Modular, flexible and fast console screen reader)
>> speechd-up (Console screen reader connecting Speech Dispatcher and speakup)
>
>You also have the same choice on other distributions such as Debian.

Let me use this opportunity to thank all those who make this happen. I have
been using Debian during my studies and now during work for more than 10 years
now. Real console (BRLTTY with speech) and GUI (Orca). Great documentation,
friendly people helping out and a lot of choice. And good to hear that other
distributions apparently also have good people doing the distributor's work
;).

Regarding the original topic. I actually prefer Rust for critical components
for many technical reasons and I could imagine that Python's global
interpreter lock (GIL) is possibly not great for a screen reader either.
However, given the limited resources on a11y, in particular on the GUI, I also
would favour extending Orca. But in the end it is the spare time of people,
and we can probably only start complaining if we actually pay them.

Cheers
Sebastian

Re: Iggdrasil, a new amazing screenreader

[Didier Spaier]

On 30/12/2021 08:10, Samuel Thibault wrote:
> You also have the same choice on other distributions such as Debian.
> 
> Please don't fall in a distro war, we don't need that.
> 
> Samuel

Well Samuel, you quoted me out of context, I am not the one who started the war.

This being said, I usually try not to follow https://xkcd.com/386/ but no always
succeed, sorry 

Best,
Didier

Re: Iggdrasil, a new amazing screenreader

[D.J.J. Ring, Jr.]

Jordan,

You are misinformed and by posting here you are unfortunately posting
misinformation. SLINT is based on the newest version of Slackware. The
other accessible distributions didn't go out of support because people
didn't like them, people loved them but they were all volunteer projects as
is Debian and there are only so many volunteers and volunteer funders.

Current Debian doesn't work for me, the old Debian certainly did, so until
it's fixed I'll go back to Debian 9. No big deal.

Also there is a script in Slint to install the latest version of Google
Chrome, so you're also misinformed about this also.

You won't find Google Chrome on Debian but you'll find the latest version
is installable with the "latest" script in SLINT.

Also as soon as Slackware goes to 15.0, SLINT will also upgrade to 15.0.

Best wishes,

David



On Thu, Dec 30, 2021, 02:58 Jordan Livesey  wrote:

> slint is not based on a newer version of slackware, also, it doesn't
> support secure boot and that is why I favor debian because it does, I
> highly discourage anyone from using slackware or anything based on it
> especially for new users, also, linux distros that focus on accessibility
> tend to go out of support pretty quickly, look at talking arch, keysoft
> linux, vinux, sonar, and luwrain for instance, nobody liked them so they
> stopped being supported because mainstream linux was accessible enough, why
> do you think debian is the king of accessibility, it just works, boot your
> install up, down arrow 5 times and voa lah you have speech, for those
> sighted they can use calamares, sidenote you can't install chrome on
> slackware and for those who use it, like me, disappointing, even solus is
> bad
>
> On Thu, Dec 30, 2021 at 7:54 AM D.J.J. Ring, Jr.  wrote:
>
>> Hello Samuel,
>>
>> What I meant is that SLINT comes pre-installed and preconfigured with all
>> those console screen readers as well as emacspeak all preconfigured for the
>> user and two simple scripts that allow the user to switch screen readers by
>> just entering the name of the screen reader.
>>
>> Additionally when emacspeak is switched on, the script asks if the user
>> if the voxin voices are going to be used.
>>
>> Thirdly, the user can decide with scripts if he wishes to boot into just
>> console text mode or into the graphical environment. Many users rely on old
>> hardware that is slow in graphical environment but which are fast in text
>> console mode.
>>
>> No distro war is being stirred up, but it would be wonderful if Debian
>> had these things set up for users who want them. Many of us struggle with
>> getting things to work.
>>
>> It took me years to figure out how to install emacspeak and configure the
>> speech server. I understand it's much easier in Debian now, but it's as
>> easy as entering the command "switch-on emacspeak" and an emacs file is
>> produced with the right content and everything!
>>
>> It took me years to figure out that some of the on line documentation for
>> emacspeak no longer applied.
>>
>> Years of effort compared with one fast command "switch-on emacspeak" is a
>> huge difference.
>>
>> The documentation is all in "slint-docs" excellently written and easy to
>> follow, right in the console.
>>
>> Now if someone would give us a script to configure mutt and alpine
>> everything would be all done.
>>
>> Debian could and probably will do all of this in ten years, and I'm
>> looking forward to it as once I found the Debian iso files with firmware,
>> Debian has been my favorite distribution but currently the latest Debian
>> installation DVD doesn't find my sound card and I have X org errors so I
>> cannot boot into Mate except by using root account. So until Debian starts
>> working for me again, I'm using SLINT.
>>
>> But I can use the old Debian 9 and use that with my home files, just not
>> Debian 10.1. I'll have to find the time to reinstall the old Debian, I've
>> spent two weeks trying to install Debian 10.1 without screen reader and
>> then without graphics (except when using root). I love Debian but
>> accessibility is an after thought compared to Slint which has accessibility
>> as one of its primary goals.
>>
>> Happy 2022!
>>
>> David
>>
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Dec 30, 2021, 02:10 Samuel Thibault  wrote:
>>
>>> D.J.J. Ring, Jr., le mer. 29 déc. 2021 21:56:55 -0500, a ecrit:
>>> > Also with Slint, arguably the most accessible of them all, you have
>>> the choice
>>> > of various screen readers in console:
>>> >
>>> > espeakup (Console screen reader connecting espeak-ng and speakup)
>>> > fenrir (Modular, flexible and fast console screen reader)
>>> > speechd-up (Console screen reader connecting Speech Dispatcher and
>>> speakup)
>>>
>>> You also have the same choice on other distributions such as Debian.
>>>
>>> Please don't fall in a distro war, we don't need that.
>>>
>>> Samuel
>>>
>>>

Re: Iggdrasil, a new amazing screenreader

[Jordan Livesey]

slint is not based on a newer version of slackware, also, it doesn't
support secure boot and that is why I favor debian because it does, I
highly discourage anyone from using slackware or anything based on it
especially for new users, also, linux distros that focus on accessibility
tend to go out of support pretty quickly, look at talking arch, keysoft
linux, vinux, sonar, and luwrain for instance, nobody liked them so they
stopped being supported because mainstream linux was accessible enough, why
do you think debian is the king of accessibility, it just works, boot your
install up, down arrow 5 times and voa lah you have speech, for those
sighted they can use calamares, sidenote you can't install chrome on
slackware and for those who use it, like me, disappointing, even solus is
bad

On Thu, Dec 30, 2021 at 7:54 AM D.J.J. Ring, Jr.  wrote:

> Hello Samuel,
>
> What I meant is that SLINT comes pre-installed and preconfigured with all
> those console screen readers as well as emacspeak all preconfigured for the
> user and two simple scripts that allow the user to switch screen readers by
> just entering the name of the screen reader.
>
> Additionally when emacspeak is switched on, the script asks if the user if
> the voxin voices are going to be used.
>
> Thirdly, the user can decide with scripts if he wishes to boot into just
> console text mode or into the graphical environment. Many users rely on old
> hardware that is slow in graphical environment but which are fast in text
> console mode.
>
> No distro war is being stirred up, but it would be wonderful if Debian had
> these things set up for users who want them. Many of us struggle with
> getting things to work.
>
> It took me years to figure out how to install emacspeak and configure the
> speech server. I understand it's much easier in Debian now, but it's as
> easy as entering the command "switch-on emacspeak" and an emacs file is
> produced with the right content and everything!
>
> It took me years to figure out that some of the on line documentation for
> emacspeak no longer applied.
>
> Years of effort compared with one fast command "switch-on emacspeak" is a
> huge difference.
>
> The documentation is all in "slint-docs" excellently written and easy to
> follow, right in the console.
>
> Now if someone would give us a script to configure mutt and alpine
> everything would be all done.
>
> Debian could and probably will do all of this in ten years, and I'm
> looking forward to it as once I found the Debian iso files with firmware,
> Debian has been my favorite distribution but currently the latest Debian
> installation DVD doesn't find my sound card and I have X org errors so I
> cannot boot into Mate except by using root account. So until Debian starts
> working for me again, I'm using SLINT.
>
> But I can use the old Debian 9 and use that with my home files, just not
> Debian 10.1. I'll have to find the time to reinstall the old Debian, I've
> spent two weeks trying to install Debian 10.1 without screen reader and
> then without graphics (except when using root). I love Debian but
> accessibility is an after thought compared to Slint which has accessibility
> as one of its primary goals.
>
> Happy 2022!
>
> David
>
>
>
> On Thu, Dec 30, 2021, 02:10 Samuel Thibault  wrote:
>
>> D.J.J. Ring, Jr., le mer. 29 déc. 2021 21:56:55 -0500, a ecrit:
>> > Also with Slint, arguably the most accessible of them all, you have the
>> choice
>> > of various screen readers in console:
>> >
>> > espeakup (Console screen reader connecting espeak-ng and speakup)
>> > fenrir (Modular, flexible and fast console screen reader)
>> > speechd-up (Console screen reader connecting Speech Dispatcher and
>> speakup)
>>
>> You also have the same choice on other distributions such as Debian.
>>
>> Please don't fall in a distro war, we don't need that.
>>
>> Samuel
>>
>>

Re: Iggdrasil, a new amazing screenreader

[D.J.J. Ring, Jr.]

Hello Samuel,

What I meant is that SLINT comes pre-installed and preconfigured with all
those console screen readers as well as emacspeak all preconfigured for the
user and two simple scripts that allow the user to switch screen readers by
just entering the name of the screen reader.

Additionally when emacspeak is switched on, the script asks if the user if
the voxin voices are going to be used.

Thirdly, the user can decide with scripts if he wishes to boot into just
console text mode or into the graphical environment. Many users rely on old
hardware that is slow in graphical environment but which are fast in text
console mode.

No distro war is being stirred up, but it would be wonderful if Debian had
these things set up for users who want them. Many of us struggle with
getting things to work.

It took me years to figure out how to install emacspeak and configure the
speech server. I understand it's much easier in Debian now, but it's as
easy as entering the command "switch-on emacspeak" and an emacs file is
produced with the right content and everything!

It took me years to figure out that some of the on line documentation for
emacspeak no longer applied.

Years of effort compared with one fast command "switch-on emacspeak" is a
huge difference.

The documentation is all in "slint-docs" excellently written and easy to
follow, right in the console.

Now if someone would give us a script to configure mutt and alpine
everything would be all done.

Debian could and probably will do all of this in ten years, and I'm looking
forward to it as once I found the Debian iso files with firmware, Debian
has been my favorite distribution but currently the latest Debian
installation DVD doesn't find my sound card and I have X org errors so I
cannot boot into Mate except by using root account. So until Debian starts
working for me again, I'm using SLINT.

But I can use the old Debian 9 and use that with my home files, just not
Debian 10.1. I'll have to find the time to reinstall the old Debian, I've
spent two weeks trying to install Debian 10.1 without screen reader and
then without graphics (except when using root). I love Debian but
accessibility is an after thought compared to Slint which has accessibility
as one of its primary goals.

Happy 2022!

David



On Thu, Dec 30, 2021, 02:10 Samuel Thibault  wrote:

> D.J.J. Ring, Jr., le mer. 29 déc. 2021 21:56:55 -0500, a ecrit:
> > Also with Slint, arguably the most accessible of them all, you have the
> choice
> > of various screen readers in console:
> >
> > espeakup (Console screen reader connecting espeak-ng and speakup)
> > fenrir (Modular, flexible and fast console screen reader)
> > speechd-up (Console screen reader connecting Speech Dispatcher and
> speakup)
>
> You also have the same choice on other distributions such as Debian.
>
> Please don't fall in a distro war, we don't need that.
>
> Samuel
>
>

Re: Iggdrasil, a new amazing screenreader

[Jordan Livesey]

for those distros that are not accessible, you can make them accessible but
you may need sighted help, for instance, orca isn't just gonna work by
installing it as you have to enable espeak and espeakup as a service in any
distro that isn't debian or fedora, chromium is only accessible on distros
based on debian based on a dependency that only debian has and that ubuntu
also uses, fedora users are out of luck here, so are arch and opensuse users

On Thu, Dec 30, 2021 at 7:10 AM Samuel Thibault 
wrote:

> D.J.J. Ring, Jr., le mer. 29 déc. 2021 21:56:55 -0500, a ecrit:
> > Also with Slint, arguably the most accessible of them all, you have the
> choice
> > of various screen readers in console:
> >
> > espeakup (Console screen reader connecting espeak-ng and speakup)
> > fenrir (Modular, flexible and fast console screen reader)
> > speechd-up (Console screen reader connecting Speech Dispatcher and
> speakup)
>
> You also have the same choice on other distributions such as Debian.
>
> Please don't fall in a distro war, we don't need that.
>
> Samuel
>
>

Re: Iggdrasil, a new amazing screenreader

[Samuel Thibault]

D.J.J. Ring, Jr., le mer. 29 déc. 2021 21:56:55 -0500, a ecrit:
> Also with Slint, arguably the most accessible of them all, you have the choice
> of various screen readers in console:
> 
> espeakup (Console screen reader connecting espeak-ng and speakup)
> fenrir (Modular, flexible and fast console screen reader)
> speechd-up (Console screen reader connecting Speech Dispatcher and speakup)

You also have the same choice on other distributions such as Debian.

Please don't fall in a distro war, we don't need that.

Samuel

Re: Iggdrasil, a new amazing screenreader

[Chime Hart]

Well, DJ, first of all, I see why you like Zoe. But what were those metronome 
style clicks after each sentense? Maybe some time if they ever fix those 
non-interrupt issues, maybe I would purchase a 3rd voice.
Now, I completely agree with you about Word-Perfect. wp6.0 let me do anything I 
needed. I had actually tried installing wp8 for Linux, but no luck, however, 
running a duckduckgo search, this is a best place to start:

www.control-escape.com/linux/wp8.html
Best of success if you try.
Chime

Re: Iggdrasil, a new amazing screenreader

[D.J.J. Ring, Jr.]

In both Debian and in Slint, you don't have to even configure the console
screen reader, it comes pre-configured.

Also with Slint, arguably the most accessible of them all, you have the
choice of various screen readers in console:

espeakup (Console screen reader connecting espeak-ng and speakup)
fenrir (Modular, flexible and fast console screen reader)
speechd-up (Console screen reader connecting Speech Dispatcher and speakup)

Now, just to be clear, I'm not talking about a the orca screen reader
working in a terminal.  I'm talking about a real console screen reader
working in text mode console even with NO X Windows running.

Nothing works better than a good console screen reader - the trade off is
that you don't have graphics, but if you cannot see, that's not so much of
a trade off.  I do wish there were more good console programms like a Linux
WordPerfect - I have my old DOS WordPerfect working under DOSBox.  I'd pay
for a working Linux version of a text word processor.

Best wishes,
David





On Wed, Dec 29, 2021 at 5:38 PM Jordan Livesey 
wrote:

> rather than make something new, we should really concentrate on orca
> because its built into most popular distributions except manjaro and open
> suse. because quite frankly a new to linux user would rather use orca than
> fiddle about with a console based screen reader like fenrir, luckily I
> switched to debian because the version of orca it provides is better than
> that provided by ubuntu, by that works properly with mate unlike ubuntu
>
> On Sun, Dec 12, 2021 at 6:15 PM Aaron 
> wrote:
>
>>
>> On 12/12/21 04:59, Pawel L. wrote:
>> > Hi,
>> > I think that the blind Linux community would benefit more from
>> > consolidating the knowledge of talented programmers and creating one,
>> > but maximally complete screen reader.
>> >
>> > I am sure that it would be better for all of us to effectively support
>> > the development of ORCA, as is the case with NVDA in Windows, than to
>> > start new projects.
>> >
>> > There are many ideas out there, but usually nothing comes of it.
>> >
>> > Take care,
>> > Pawel
>>
>> Just to put in my own two cents as a developer - supporting an existing
>> project and starting an alternative project are not mutually exclusive.
>> One of the great things about open source is that the lessons learned
>> from one project can pretty easily be applied to a different project.
>>
>> There are many reasons why it might work better to start a new project
>> rather than contributing to an existing one. You might want to
>> experiment with concepts that the maintainers of the existing project
>> are not interested in, you might find the existing code base too
>> confusing to start contributing to, you might want to simplify the code
>> base or work in a different language that you are more familiar with.
>>
>> This allows people to experiment, or at least get familiar, with the
>> specific issues surrounding a project. The best aspects of the new
>> project can either be implemented as a patch or pulled into the main
>> project by its maintainers if they see a clear benefit.
>>
>> I'm interested in the comparison to NVDA, though. I don't know the
>> history of the development of that project, or what the main differences
>> in developer acceptance are between NVDA and ORCA. Do you find Windows
>> open source development to be less chaotic than Linux in general, or
>> just in this project specifically? It could make an interesting history.
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Aaron
>>
>>

Re: Iggdrasil, a new amazing screenreader

[Jude DaShiell]

I have been introduced to many different Linux distributions recently.
clear linux was the most recent and latest version of Manjaro neither
appear to have any screen reader in them.  Most Linux distributions don't
have accessibility stacks built into them.  As for Iggdrasill, it's not
ready for prime time yet.


On Sun, 12 Dec 2021, Jordan Livesey wrote:

> rather than make something new, we should really concentrate on orca
> because its built into most popular distributions except manjaro and open
> suse. because quite frankly a new to linux user would rather use orca than
> fiddle about with a console based screen reader like fenrir, luckily I
> switched to debian because the version of orca it provides is better than
> that provided by ubuntu, by that works properly with mate unlike ubuntu
>
> On Sun, Dec 12, 2021 at 6:15 PM Aaron  wrote:
>
> >
> > On 12/12/21 04:59, Pawel L. wrote:
> > > Hi,
> > > I think that the blind Linux community would benefit more from
> > > consolidating the knowledge of talented programmers and creating one,
> > > but maximally complete screen reader.
> > >
> > > I am sure that it would be better for all of us to effectively support
> > > the development of ORCA, as is the case with NVDA in Windows, than to
> > > start new projects.
> > >
> > > There are many ideas out there, but usually nothing comes of it.
> > >
> > > Take care,
> > > Pawel
> >
> > Just to put in my own two cents as a developer - supporting an existing
> > project and starting an alternative project are not mutually exclusive.
> > One of the great things about open source is that the lessons learned
> > from one project can pretty easily be applied to a different project.
> >
> > There are many reasons why it might work better to start a new project
> > rather than contributing to an existing one. You might want to
> > experiment with concepts that the maintainers of the existing project
> > are not interested in, you might find the existing code base too
> > confusing to start contributing to, you might want to simplify the code
> > base or work in a different language that you are more familiar with.
> >
> > This allows people to experiment, or at least get familiar, with the
> > specific issues surrounding a project. The best aspects of the new
> > project can either be implemented as a patch or pulled into the main
> > project by its maintainers if they see a clear benefit.
> >
> > I'm interested in the comparison to NVDA, though. I don't know the
> > history of the development of that project, or what the main differences
> > in developer acceptance are between NVDA and ORCA. Do you find Windows
> > open source development to be less chaotic than Linux in general, or
> > just in this project specifically? It could make an interesting history.
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > Aaron
> >
> >
>

Re: Iggdrasil, a new amazing screenreader

[Jordan Livesey]

rather than make something new, we should really concentrate on orca 
because its built into most popular distributions except manjaro and open 
suse. because quite frankly a new to linux user would rather use orca than 
fiddle about with a console based screen reader like fenrir, luckily I 
switched to debian because the version of orca it provides is better than 
that provided by ubuntu, by that works properly with mate unlike ubuntu

On Sun, Dec 12, 2021 at 6:15 PM Aaron  wrote:

>
> On 12/12/21 04:59, Pawel L. wrote:
> > Hi,
> > I think that the blind Linux community would benefit more from
> > consolidating the knowledge of talented programmers and creating one,
> > but maximally complete screen reader.
> >
> > I am sure that it would be better for all of us to effectively support
> > the development of ORCA, as is the case with NVDA in Windows, than to
> > start new projects.
> >
> > There are many ideas out there, but usually nothing comes of it.
> >
> > Take care,
> > Pawel
>
> Just to put in my own two cents as a developer - supporting an existing 
> project and starting an alternative project are not mutually exclusive. 
> One of the great things about open source is that the lessons learned 
> from one project can pretty easily be applied to a different project.
>
> There are many reasons why it might work better to start a new project 
> rather than contributing to an existing one. You might want to 
> experiment with concepts that the maintainers of the existing project 
> are not interested in, you might find the existing code base too 
> confusing to start contributing to, you might want to simplify the code 
> base or work in a different language that you are more familiar with.
>
> This allows people to experiment, or at least get familiar, with the 
> specific issues surrounding a project. The best aspects of the new 
> project can either be implemented as a patch or pulled into the main 
> project by its maintainers if they see a clear benefit.
>
> I'm interested in the comparison to NVDA, though. I don't know the 
> history of the development of that project, or what the main differences 
> in developer acceptance are between NVDA and ORCA. Do you find Windows 
> open source development to be less chaotic than Linux in general, or 
> just in this project specifically? It could make an interesting history.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Aaron
>
>

Re: Iggdrasil, a new amazing screenreader

[Sam Hartman]

> "john" == john doe  writes:


There are a couple of reasons you might want a screen reader with a
different architecture than Orca.

Orca's architecture makes it relatively easy for Orca to block.
It's written in python, and if anything in Orca does something CPU bound
while holding the global interpreter lock, the entire screen reader
blocks.

Similarly, if Orca makes blocking interactions with something like dbus,
or blocks waiting for some other application to respond to it, Orca can
block.

I don't know about the mix of first or second class of problems.
I do know that when interacting with large tables or large DOM trees,
Orca can block, disabling accessibility for all Orca-read applications.
I've definitely found the combination of Orca/Firefox to be problematic
particularly when interacting with large DOMs like build logs, or
sometimes app.element.io.

There are various things that Orca could do to be better about this.
And in fact, Orca has gotten better over the last couple of years about
only hanging Firefox rather than the entire system.  (Although I did
have a situation just a few minutes ago where ORca hung entirely until I
waited for ever or quit Firefox)

I haven't looked at what Orca actually does internally, nor the efforts
to reduce blocking over the years.  If someone did look at that and
concluded that a new architecture--one with better threading or first
class co-routine like structures (Think Rust or go) was appropriate, I
wouldn't disagree with them.

I hope the community gets behind a small number of solutions.
But if there's an actual good reason for trying something new,
particularly when the efforts to fix what we have are stalled, that
might be the right answer.

--Sam

Re: Iggdrasil, a new amazing screenreader

[john doe]

On 12/12/2021 2:44 PM, john doe wrote:

On 12/12/2021 10:59 AM, Pawel L. wrote:

Hi,
I think that the blind Linux community would benefit more from
consolidating the knowledge of talented programmers and creating one,
but maximally complete screen reader.



I concur.



I withdraw my comment.

While it take sometime to get use to the idea of having multiple
implementations of the same thing that is the strength and buty of Linux!

The reason why I'm on Linux is because I can find my own way of getting
things done.

--
John Doe

Re: Iggdrasil, a new amazing screenreader

[Chime Hart]

Hi Aaron: On at least 2 instances I asked NVDA if they would make a Linux 
version? Both times they said "no" While I am only a console user, I've always 
found ORCA confusing, but 1 of my Linux experts thinks that with a different 
desktop layout, I might like it better. If there were a graphical layout which 
felt like win98 that would be better. But even the other day I went on my 
Wife's windows7 machine, trying to navigate a site I couldn't access in L Y N 
X, but I certainly didn't find much there which would make me wanna be much in 
graphical.

Chime

Re: Iggdrasil, a new amazing screenreader

[Aaron]

On 12/12/21 04:59, Pawel L. wrote:

Hi,
I think that the blind Linux community would benefit more from
consolidating the knowledge of talented programmers and creating one,
but maximally complete screen reader.

I am sure that it would be better for all of us to effectively support
the development of ORCA, as is the case with NVDA in Windows, than to
start new projects.

There are many ideas out there, but usually nothing comes of it.

Take care,
Pawel


Just to put in my own two cents as a developer - supporting an existing 
project and starting an alternative project are not mutually exclusive. 
One of the great things about open source is that the lessons learned 
from one project can pretty easily be applied to a different project.


There are many reasons why it might work better to start a new project 
rather than contributing to an existing one. You might want to 
experiment with concepts that the maintainers of the existing project 
are not interested in, you might find the existing code base too 
confusing to start contributing to, you might want to simplify the code 
base or work in a different language that you are more familiar with.


This allows people to experiment, or at least get familiar, with the 
specific issues surrounding a project. The best aspects of the new 
project can either be implemented as a patch or pulled into the main 
project by its maintainers if they see a clear benefit.


I'm interested in the comparison to NVDA, though. I don't know the 
history of the development of that project, or what the main differences 
in developer acceptance are between NVDA and ORCA. Do you find Windows 
open source development to be less chaotic than Linux in general, or 
just in this project specifically? It could make an interesting history.


Thanks,

Aaron