subject:"Re\: Bug#727708\: Fsck SystemD and its developers and its users. GR to override this please."

On Tue, Feb 11, 2014 at 03:47:59PM +0100, John Paul Adrian Glaubitz wrote:
 systemd is used as the default init system in:
 
 - Fedora
 - Arch Linux
 - Mageia
 - openSUSE
 - SLES (upcoming)
 - RHEL7
 - Frugalware
 - (see Wikipedia)

  And what is this prove? That a small part of a distro dev team choose to use
a systemd? Where are votes of all distro users?

 Plus companies like Intel and BMW are using it in their embedded platforms.

Plus many other companies that doesn't use it. And how embedded platforms belong
to desktops and servers?

 What I don't get is why are those people trying to push Debian's decision 
 when they are primarily using a different platform. But I guess it's pure 
 politics and trying to push their own projects.

  I'm using debian and i don't want to use systemd in any form (with gnome3, 
etc).


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Re: Bug#727708: Fsck SystemD and its developers and its users. GR to override this please.

On Tue, Feb 11, 2014 at 08:37:59PM +0100, John Paul Adrian Glaubitz wrote:
 On the other hand, what companies and distributions and companies
 actively support Upstart and OpenRC.

  Is this important? Or our way is to make init such a complex, that it
can be supported only by companies? If you want company support use RedHat.


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Re: Bug#727708: Fsck SystemD and its developers and its users. GR to override this please.

On Tue, Feb 11, 2014 at 11:20:55PM +0100, Olav Vitters wrote:
 $ journalctl | grep
 $ journalctl | tail -n 500

grep /var/log/syslog
tail -n 500 /var/log/syslog

Hm... Is this really simplier? O, wait. I can easily copy my log to any other
machine to analyze it there with:

scp /var/log/syslog ...

Why do i need an unneeded layer for this - journalctl?


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Re: Bug#727708: Fsck SystemD and its developers and its users. GR to override this please.

2014-02-12 Thread Salvo Tomaselli


  There is no bug if its not installed.
 
 Which is the case for most programs. We could close almost all our bugs
 on this ground.
But the normal case is that uninstalling a software you also stop getting the 
functionality it provides, with pulseaudio you START getting the functionality 
it claims to provide by uninstalling it.

-- 

Salvo Tomaselli

Io non mi sento obbligato a credere che lo stesso Dio che ci ha dotato di
senso, ragione ed intelletto intendesse che noi ne facessimo a meno.
-- Galileo Galilei

http://ltworf.github.io/ltworf/


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Re: Bug#727708: Fsck SystemD and its developers and its users. GR to override this please.

On 02/12/2014 11:28 AM, Oleg wrote:
 On Tue, Feb 11, 2014 at 03:47:59PM +0100, John Paul Adrian Glaubitz wrote:
 systemd is used as the default init system in:

 - Fedora
 - Arch Linux
 - Mageia
 - openSUSE
 - SLES (upcoming)
 - RHEL7
 - Frugalware
 - (see Wikipedia)
 
   And what is this prove? That a small part of a distro dev team choose to use
 a systemd? Where are votes of all distro users?

Those are among the most important distributions which attract most
users and developers. So, it does prove that systemd has already
a large market share.

 Plus companies like Intel and BMW are using it in their embedded platforms.
 
 Plus many other companies that doesn't use it. And how embedded platforms 
 belong
 to desktops and servers?

The point is that multi-billion dollar companies invest money into the
development of systemd and therefore support and push it which will
mean everyone else who uses it profits from that.

 What I don't get is why are those people trying to push Debian's decision 
 when they are primarily using a different platform. But I guess it's pure 
 politics and trying to push their own projects.
 
   I'm using debian and i don't want to use systemd in any form (with gnome3, 
 etc).

That's ok, you don't have to use it. Yet, we have chosen it to be the
default and you should accept that.

Thanks!

Adrian

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Re: Bug#727708: Fsck SystemD and its developers and its users. GR to override this please.

On 02/12/2014 11:33 AM, Oleg wrote:
 On Tue, Feb 11, 2014 at 08:37:59PM +0100, John Paul Adrian Glaubitz wrote:
 On the other hand, what companies and distributions and companies
 actively support Upstart and OpenRC.
 
   Is this important?

Yes, it is. Large market share means large interest of developers
means steady and fast progress.

 Or our way is to make init such a complex, that it
 can be supported only by companies?

No. You are turning my argument upside down.

 If you want company support use RedHat.

If you want to use sysvinit, don't use Debian.

Adrian

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Re: Bug#727708: Fsck SystemD and its developers and its users. GR to override this please.

On 02/12/2014 11:53 AM, Oleg wrote:
 Why do i need an unneeded layer for this - journalctl?

We have discussed this over and over again and there is tons
of documentation and discussions explaining the reasoning
behind that.

Please do your homework yourself and stop asking the same
questions over and over again.

Adrian

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Re: Bug#727708: Fsck SystemD and its developers and its users. GR to override this please.

2014-02-12 Thread Josselin Mouette

Le mercredi 12 février 2014 à 12:10 +0100, Salvo Tomaselli a écrit : 
 But the normal case is that uninstalling a software you also stop getting the 
 functionality it provides, with pulseaudio you START getting the 
 functionality 
 it claims to provide by uninstalling it.

Oh really? You get per-application mixing, dynamic output redirection,
bluetooth support, network transparency, all of that with alsa+dmix?

-- 
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: :' :
`. `'
  `-


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Re: Bug#727708: Fsck SystemD and its developers and its users. GR to override this please.

2014-02-12 Thread Jean-Christophe Dubacq

Le 12/02/2014 12:10, Salvo Tomaselli a écrit :
 
 There is no bug if its not installed.

 Which is the case for most programs. We could close almost all our bugs
 on this ground.
 But the normal case is that uninstalling a software you also stop getting the 
 functionality it provides, with pulseaudio you START getting the 
 functionality 
 it claims to provide by uninstalling it.
 

No. You get a basic functionality, not all the features provided by
pulseaudio. And I, for one, could never get out of the box mixing of
audio streams when not using pulseaudio. I should have configured this
manually with esoteric writings in a non-existent file (not remove a
comment from a file). Go figure, listening to music and wanting a sound
when I receive a message is not default?

Could we move on from this subject? Unless you have a bug number to back
your affirmations with technical informations (and a date), this is not
useful.

Sincerely,
-- 
Jean-Christophe Dubacq



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Re: Bug#727708: Fsck SystemD and its developers and its users. GR to override this please.

On Wed, Feb 12, 2014 at 12:24:03PM +0100, John Paul Adrian Glaubitz wrote:
And what is this prove? That a small part of a distro dev team choose to 
  use
  a systemd? Where are votes of all distro users?
 
 Those are among the most important distributions which attract most
 users and developers.

ok. How this is contradict to this:

A small part of a distro dev team choose to use a systemd and others users are
simply forced to use it.

  So, it does prove that systemd has already
 a large market share.

  Are we engineers or marketers? I thought we talk about a technical side
of a debian init and not about market and other nonsense. 

  Plus many other companies that doesn't use it. And how embedded platforms 
  belong
  to desktops and servers?
 
 The point is that multi-billion dollar companies invest money into the
 development of systemd and therefore support and push it which will
 mean everyone else who uses it profits from that.

Again. If these companies invest money into the development of their embedded
platforms init, we must not use it in our desktops and servers.


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Re: Bug#727708: Fsck SystemD and its developers and its users. GR to override this please.

2014-02-12 Thread Darac Marjal

On Wed, Feb 12, 2014 at 12:10:58PM +0100, Salvo Tomaselli wrote:
 
   There is no bug if its not installed.
  
  Which is the case for most programs. We could close almost all our bugs
  on this ground.
 But the normal case is that uninstalling a software you also stop getting the 
 functionality it provides, with pulseaudio you START getting the 
 functionality 
 it claims to provide by uninstalling it.

Really? Uninstalling Pulseaudio gives you a graphical interface for
moving streams of audio between devices? Uninstalling Pulseaudio gives
you software mixing of audio streams? Uninstalling Pulseaudio gives you
the ability to stream your audio across the network?

Well, yes, if you've done the work to set all that up externally to
Pulseaudio, then of course you don't need Pulseaudio(!)



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Re: Bug#727708: Fsck SystemD and its developers and its users. GR to override this please.

On Wed, Feb 12, 2014 at 12:26:39PM +0100, John Paul Adrian Glaubitz wrote:
 On 02/12/2014 11:33 AM, Oleg wrote:
  On Tue, Feb 11, 2014 at 08:37:59PM +0100, John Paul Adrian Glaubitz wrote:
  On the other hand, what companies and distributions and companies
  actively support Upstart and OpenRC.
  
Is this important?
 
 Yes, it is. Large market share means large interest of developers
 means steady and fast progress.

  No, it is not. Market is closer to money, than to stability and technical
beauty.

  If you want company support use RedHat.
 
 If you want to use sysvinit, don't use Debian.

  Why? I want to use debian as i used before - with a classic init. I like
debian in the form as it is now. You doesn't like it. May be _you_ should
use an another system, that meet your wishes?


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Re: Bug#727708: Fsck SystemD and its developers and its users. GR to override this please.

On 02/12/2014 03:01 AM, John Paul Adrian Glaubitz wrote:
 Why not stop here with OpenRC and call it day?
 You cannot always win in life :).

Short version:

Why don't you just call it a day, and let me work on what I wish? What
is your problem with me working on it???

Longer version:

Part of why I work on OpenRC is because I find it fun, when I'm tired of
doing the OpenStack packaging (which is maybe 75% made of very
repetitive Python module packaging) and need recreation with my
computer. And doing so, I believe it's producing something useful, and
which seems to gather some interest (which is very hard to evaluate how
much), which is enough to motivate me.

That you don't believe in the technology is a well established point,
and we all got it. Nobody needs another occurrence of this. And the fact
that you don't find this work useful will not change *ANYTHING* to this
Adrian. Even with all what you wrote, you didn't succeed in destroying
the fun I have hacking OpenRC.

This is the first instance I see in Debian of someone trying to convince
another person to *not* work on something. Please give up trying to
convince me not to do what I do, I'm a grown up, and I can decide for
myself.

Thomas


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Re: Bug#727708: Fsck SystemD and its developers and its users. GR to override this please.

On Wed, Feb 12, 2014 at 03:42:54PM +0400, Oleg wrote:
 A small part of a distro dev team choose to use a systemd and others users are
 simply forced to use it.

Kind of empty speak. In any distribution you have a small amount of
people who contribute loads of time. E.g. ctte people, etc. If they go
into a certain direction you can change things by providing
alternatives. You aren't forced in any way. It's a default and nobody is
preventing alternatives.

-- 
Regards,
Olav


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Re: Bug#727708: Fsck SystemD and its developers and its users. GR to override this please.

2014-02-12 Thread Matthias Urlichs

Hi,

Oleg:
  If you want to use sysvinit, don't use Debian.
 
   Why? I want to use debian as i used before - with a classic init. I like
 debian in the form as it is now. You doesn't like it. May be _you_ should
 use an another system, that meet your wishes?
 
Since Jessie (at least) will still support sys5-rc, you both get what you
want, within Debian.  So what's the problem? Somebody will be forced to
manually install the init system of their choice? How sad(TM).

Snarkiness aside, IMHO it makes much more sense to have the most-featureful
init system be the default, because then those features actually get used
and tested -- and thus the situation will be more reliable than if only
those users/sysadmins switch to systemd who actually _are_ desperate for
its features (as opposed to, say, those who are skeptics but find that they
won't want to miss those selfsame features once they get used to them …).

-- 
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Re: Bug#727708: Fsck SystemD and its developers and its users. GR to override this please.

On Wed, Feb 12, 2014 at 03:57:53PM +0400, Oleg wrote:
 On Wed, Feb 12, 2014 at 12:26:39PM +0100, John Paul Adrian Glaubitz wrote:
  On 02/12/2014 11:33 AM, Oleg wrote:
   On Tue, Feb 11, 2014 at 08:37:59PM +0100, John Paul Adrian Glaubitz wrote:
   On the other hand, what companies and distributions and companies
   actively support Upstart and OpenRC.
   
 Is this important?
  
  Yes, it is. Large market share means large interest of developers
  means steady and fast progress.
 
   No, it is not. Market is closer to money, than to stability and technical
 beauty.

Empty statement. He meant that market share means that loads of
attention will be given to systemd as well. You'll notice this by the
amount of contributors.

It's quite clear you don't like systemd. But stability is vague,
technical beauty: CTTE determined code quality of both Upstart as well
as systemd is at the same level.

   If you want company support use RedHat.
  
  If you want to use sysvinit, don't use Debian.
 
   Why? I want to use debian as i used before - with a classic init. I like
 debian in the form as it is now. You doesn't like it. May be _you_ should
 use an another system, that meet your wishes?

This request ignores that CTTE decided on systemd as default.

-- 
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Olav


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Re: Bug#727708: Fsck SystemD and its developers and its users. GR to override this please.

2014-02-12 Thread Matthias Urlichs

Hi,

Oleg:
 A small part of a distro dev team choose to use a systemd and others users are
 simply forced to use it.
 
(a) then you should have complained / started a GR *instead of* delegating
the question to the TC.

   Are we engineers or marketers? I thought we talk about a technical side
 of a debian init and not about market and other nonsense. 
 
Market share correlates with user and developer interest, which correlates
with number of people who work on the program and find bugs and whatnot.
We *do* want an init system which doesn't wither away because upstream
loses interest or doesn't fix year-old fatal bugs, don't we?

 Again. If these companies invest money into the development of their embedded
 platforms init, we must not use it in our desktops and servers.

So, in your opnion, everybody who works on their Debian packages on some
company's time+payroll should immediately stop doing it and leave the project?
You can't really mean that …

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Re: Bug#727708: Fsck SystemD and its developers and its users. GR to override this please.

On 02/12/2014 01:27 AM, John Paul Adrian Glaubitz wrote:
 Don't get me wrong, I really appreciate what you and the other
 maintainers are working on. But I think that it's not leading
 anywhere.

That's entirely your view, and it's fine if you have it. Though *we got
your point* Adrian, no need to insist more. It's perfectly fine if we do
not agree.

 The only advantage I have with OpenRC is its portability

IMO, it's not, though I believe it is useless to discuss it with you.
This very sentence is the proof of that.

Thomas


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Re: Bug#727708: Fsck SystemD and its developers and its users. GR to override this please.

Hi!

On 02/12/2014 01:04 PM, Thomas Goirand wrote:
 On 02/12/2014 03:01 AM, John Paul Adrian Glaubitz wrote:
 Why not stop here with OpenRC and call it day?
 You cannot always win in life :).
 
 Short version:
 
 Why don't you just call it a day, and let me work on what I wish? What
 is your problem with me working on it???

My problem is your attitude. I don't have any problems to let you work
on what you want, as I said before, I appreciate your work. However,
I have a problem with how you reacted when it was clear that your
favored system would not be chosen as default. All kinds of accusations
against members of the TC (OpenRC was not considered at all) and
being huffy like a little child that didn't get what he wanted [1].

My statement about letting go was about you accepting that the TC
has made up their minds, nothing else.

 Longer version:
 
 Part of why I work on OpenRC is because I find it fun, when I'm tired of
 doing the OpenStack packaging (which is maybe 75% made of very
 repetitive Python module packaging) and need recreation with my
 computer. And doing so, I believe it's producing something useful, and
 which seems to gather some interest (which is very hard to evaluate how
 much), which is enough to motivate me.

Good. At least you're being honest now. It's your hobby.

 That you don't believe in the technology is a well established point,
 and we all got it. Nobody needs another occurrence of this. And the fact
 that you don't find this work useful will not change *ANYTHING* to this
 Adrian. Even with all what you wrote, you didn't succeed in destroying
 the fun I have hacking OpenRC.

Then why on earth are you reiterating your points over and over again
and acted like that when you didn't get what you want? Just accept
it and move on. No one keeps you from hacking on OpenRC and I *never*
said you should stop doing that, as I said in a previous mail, I
appreciate your work.

 This is the first instance I see in Debian of someone trying to convince
 another person to *not* work on something. Please give up trying to
 convince me not to do what I do, I'm a grown up, and I can decide for
 myself.

I was *NOT* trying you to convince you to stop working on something,
you are putting words into my mouth that I never said. I said, you
should stop trying to push your opinion about what should be the
default init system when the committee has already made it's decision.

And now, I'm out of this discussion, the decision has been made and
I have been threatened with violence - twice.

Happy OpenRC hacking (no, don't mean this sarcastically!)

Adrian

 [1] https://lists.debian.org/debian-ctte/2014/01/msg00340.html

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Re: Bug#727708: Fsck SystemD and its developers and its users. GR to override this please.

On 02/12/2014 01:49 PM, Thomas Goirand wrote:
 On 02/12/2014 01:27 AM, John Paul Adrian Glaubitz wrote:
 Don't get me wrong, I really appreciate what you and the other
 maintainers are working on. But I think that it's not leading
 anywhere.
 
 That's entirely your view, and it's fine if you have it. Though *we got
 your point* Adrian, no need to insist more. It's perfectly fine if we do
 not agree.

Dude, it was you who has been constantly posting on that topic, not
me. Look at the debian-ctte archives. You're - again - behaving
as if you're somewhat more important than I am. Don't be so
derogative and arrogant, it's utterly annoying. Especially when you say
WE as if you're talking for everyone else.

If you ask me to shut up about this discussion, then you yourself
should do it as well. Don't be such an hypocrite.

 The only advantage I have with OpenRC is its portability
 
 IMO, it's not, though I believe it is useless to discuss it with you.
 This very sentence is the proof of that.

Please, Thomas, just stop discussing this topic and I will do so
as well. Please, for the sake of peace, ACCEPT that the TC has
made their choice and the choice was NOT OpenRC. And don't take
this as the message to stop working on what you like, but as the
message that the TC has made a decision and you should stop
questioning it. We seriously need to move on!

Again, I don't want to discuss this anymore.

Adrian

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Re: Bug#727708: Fsck SystemD and its developers and its users. GR to override this please.

On Wed, Feb 12, 2014 at 12:28:49PM +0100, John Paul Adrian Glaubitz wrote:
 Please do your homework yourself and stop asking the same
 questions over and over again.

Agree, I explained various things already in the same thread. There are
indications of people who indicate they don't like the amount of email
and repeated discussions. I don't think it is too much to ask that if
you do participate, you at least read what was already written in this
thread. I'm totally fine to repeat otherwise: not everyone knows every
little detail, was aware of previous threads or remembers everything
that might have been discussed before.

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Olav


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Re: Bug#727708: Fsck SystemD and its developers and its users. GR to override this please.

2014-02-12 Thread The Wanderer

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA512

On 02/12/2014 07:45 AM, Matthias Urlichs wrote:

 Again. If these companies invest money into the development of
 their embedded platforms init, we must not use it in our desktops
 and servers.
 
 So, in your opnion, everybody who works on their Debian packages on
 some company's time+payroll should immediately stop doing it and
 leave the project? You can't really mean that …

This reads to me like a language-syntax mistake, one I've seen many
times before from non-native speakers. I think what was meant by the
phrasing was not If X, then Y, but Just because X, that does not mean
Y.

- --
   The Wanderer

Secrecy is the beginning of tyranny.

A government exists to serve its citizens, not to control them.
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Re: Bug#727708: Fsck SystemD and its developers and its users. GR to override this please.

On 02/12/2014 09:31 PM, John Paul Adrian Glaubitz wrote:
 On 02/12/2014 01:49 PM, Thomas Goirand wrote:
 On 02/12/2014 01:27 AM, John Paul Adrian Glaubitz wrote:
 Don't get me wrong, I really appreciate what you and the other
 maintainers are working on. But I think that it's not leading
 anywhere.

 That's entirely your view, and it's fine if you have it. Though *we got
 your point* Adrian, no need to insist more. It's perfectly fine if we do
 not agree.
 
 Dude, it was you who has been constantly posting on that topic, not
 me. Look at the debian-ctte archives. You're - again - behaving
 as if you're somewhat more important than I am. Don't be so
 derogative and arrogant, it's utterly annoying. Especially when you say
 WE as if you're talking for everyone else.
 
 If you ask me to shut up about this discussion, then you yourself
 should do it as well. Don't be such an hypocrite.
 
 The only advantage I have with OpenRC is its portability

 IMO, it's not, though I believe it is useless to discuss it with you.
 This very sentence is the proof of that.
 
 Please, Thomas, just stop discussing this topic and I will do so
 as well. Please, for the sake of peace, ACCEPT that the TC has
 made their choice and the choice was NOT OpenRC.

From where exactly did you made up that I didn't accept the TC decision?
I wrote already to some of them that I did accept it *before* they did
it (whatever the decision was). Please stop making-up...

Ian Jackson was clear enough, and his input was valuable. I do not
regret I asked.

 And don't take
 this as the message to stop working on what you like, but as the
 message that the TC has made a decision and you should stop
 questioning it. We seriously need to move on!
 
 Again, I don't want to discuss this anymore.
 
 Adrian

On 02/12/2014 09:16 PM, John Paul Adrian Glaubitz wrote:
 Good. At least you're being honest now.

To sum up what Adrian wrote, according to him, I'm:
- derogative
- arrogant
- utterly annoying
- hypocrite
- and finally, I wasn't honest before

Well done... ! Anything else?

Adrian, your insults aren't welcome in this list.

Thomas


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Re: Bug#727708: Fsck SystemD and its developers and its users. GR to override this please.

On 02/12/2014 03:35 PM, Thomas Goirand wrote:
 To sum up what Adrian wrote, according to him, I'm:
 - derogative
 - arrogant
 - utterly annoying
 - hypocrite
 - and finally, I wasn't honest before
 
 Well done... ! Anything else?

Telling me to shut up and using sentences like we get it while you
keep the right for yourself to continue arguing is derogative, arrogant
and hypocrite, yes.

 Adrian, your insults aren't welcome in this list.

Again, are you the listmaster or DPL or what? You continue to behave
that way, yet you claim those are insults.

You know that you did this before and you apologized to me in private.
If you like, I can post this mail to the public list. You said the exact
same things before and I have heard other Debian Developers who think
the same way about you.

Your problem is that you can't accept defeat. Again, just read your
own post:

 https://lists.debian.org/debian-ctte/2014/01/msg00340.html

Also, please count how often you posted to debian-ctte and how
often I posted to debian-ctte. That's why you're being hypocrite.

Adrian

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Re: Bug#727708: Fsck SystemD and its developers and its users. GR to override this please.

Maybe time for both to agree to take this offlist or just not continue?

I don't think anyone means any harm, but arguing will just result in bad
blood IMO.

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Re: Bug#727708: Fsck SystemD and its developers and its users. GR to override this please.

2014-02-12 Thread The Wanderer

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA512

On 02/11/2014 12:38 PM, Russ Allbery wrote:

 The Wanderer wande...@fastmail.fm writes:
 
 In my case: because I want to be able to read them conveniently at
 a glance, without requiring the presence of a functioning
 specialized tool for doing so. As the UNIX Philosophy puts it,
 text streams ... [are] a universal interface.
 
 All the folks who are upset about the journal are aware, I hope,
 that, as configured in the current systemd packages in Debian at
 least (I haven't tried a generic upstream install), all journal
 messages are forwarded directly to syslog, right?  All the text files
 that you are looking for still exist in the same form they always
 have.

I believe I've seen that mentioned before, yes. and I'm certainly aware
of it now.

I was responding specifically to the question of Why do you want your
log files in plain-text format?, which is orthogonal to the question of
whether systemd et al. support logging in such a format.

- --
   The Wanderer

Secrecy is the beginning of tyranny.

A government exists to serve its citizens, not to control them.
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Re: Bug#727708: Fsck SystemD and its developers and its users. GR to override this please.

2014-02-12 Thread Kevin Chadwick

previously on this list John Paul Adrian Glaubitz contributed:

 You know that you did this before and you apologized to me in private.
 If you like, I can post this mail to the public list. You said the exact
 same things before and I have heard other Debian Developers who think
 the same way about you.
 

I think you need some balance here as much can be flung in your
direction here too.

 Your problem is that you can't accept defeat. Again, 

Defeat? That says it all

If they have decided on systemd as default then I'd like to see the
published reasoning, though I am sure it would annoy me greatly.

The fragmentation of Linux (which includes cortex and blackfin
kernel support) has begun through an idea that was said to unite and
not divide and the benefits are negligible when you consider what
linux can already optionally do.

OpenRC is also more intuitive and easier to CLI and on install
scripts.

Promises of uniting leading to the opposite continues to repeat itself
through human history, it seems.

-- 
___

'Write programs that do one thing and do it well. Write programs to work
together. Write programs to handle text streams, because that is a
universal interface'

(Doug McIlroy)

In Other Words - Don't design like polkit or systemd
___


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Re: Bug#727708: Fsck SystemD and its developers and its users. GR to override this please.

2014-02-12 Thread Salvo Tomaselli


 Oh really? You get per-application mixing, dynamic output redirection,
 bluetooth support, network transparency, all of that with alsa+dmix?
No, but per application mixing with no sound coming out from the speakers is 
not the most useful thing.

-- 

Salvo Tomaselli

Io non mi sento obbligato a credere che lo stesso Dio che ci ha dotato di
senso, ragione ed intelletto intendesse che noi ne facessimo a meno.
-- Galileo Galilei

http://ltworf.github.io/ltworf/


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Re: Bug#727708: Fsck SystemD and its developers and its users. GR to override this please.

On Wed, Feb 12, 2014 at 04:57:57PM +0100, Salvo Tomaselli wrote:
  Oh really? You get per-application mixing, dynamic output redirection,
  bluetooth support, network transparency, all of that with alsa+dmix?
 No, but per application mixing with no sound coming out from the speakers is 
 not the most useful thing.

As said various times before regarding bugs: File a bug.

Your answer does not relate though. The comment was that pulseaudio does
not add any value. Your reply doesn't address this at all, just repeats
that there is a bug, that was established already. Without a bugreport
the bug will not be fixed any time soon. Same as that pulseaudio does
allow you to do lots of new things.

-- 
Regards,
Olav


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Re: Bug#727708: Fsck SystemD and its developers and its users. GR to override this please.

2014-02-12 Thread Paul Tagliamonte

On Wed, Feb 12, 2014 at 03:54:48PM +, Kevin Chadwick wrote:
 If they have decided on systemd as default [...]

https://lists.debian.org/debian-devel-announce/2014/02/msg5.html

Can we please end this thread?

Thanks!
  Paul

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Re: Bug#727708: Fsck SystemD and its developers and its users. GR to override this please.

On Wed, Feb 12, 2014 at 09:03:54AM -0500, The Wanderer wrote:
 -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
 Hash: SHA512
 
 On 02/12/2014 07:45 AM, Matthias Urlichs wrote:
 
  Again. If these companies invest money into the development of
  their embedded platforms init, we must not use it in our desktops
  and servers.
  
  So, in your opnion, everybody who works on their Debian packages on
  some company's time+payroll should immediately stop doing it and
  leave the project? You can't really mean that ???
 
 This reads to me like a language-syntax mistake, one I've seen many
 times before from non-native speakers. I think what was meant by the
 phrasing was not If X, then Y, but Just because X, that does not mean
 Y.

  Yes. The second variant is what i want to say. Thank you. Sorry my
english.


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Re: Bug#727708: Fsck SystemD and its developers and its users. GR to override this please.

On Wed, Feb 12, 2014 at 01:36:14PM +0100, Matthias Urlichs wrote:
 Hi,
 
 Oleg:
   If you want to use sysvinit, don't use Debian.
  
Why? I want to use debian as i used before - with a classic init. I like
  debian in the form as it is now. You doesn't like it. May be _you_ should
  use an another system, that meet your wishes?
  
 Since Jessie (at least) will still support sys5-rc, you both get what you
 want, within Debian.  So what's the problem? Somebody will be forced to
 manually install the init system of their choice? How sad(TM).

  Who nows what will be in the future... Here some men talk about cost of
simultaneous support of many init systems. So, in the future default init
system may stay stable and working, but alternative ones no.


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Re: Bug#727708: Fsck SystemD and its developers and its users. GR to override this please.

2014-02-12 Thread Stephan Seitz


On Wed, Feb 12, 2014 at 11:39:06AM +, Darac Marjal wrote:
But the normal case is that uninstalling a software you also stop 
getting the functionality it provides, with pulseaudio you START 
getting the functionality it claims to provide by uninstalling it.

Really? Uninstalling Pulseaudio gives you a graphical interface for
moving streams of audio between devices? Uninstalling Pulseaudio gives
you software mixing of audio streams? Uninstalling Pulseaudio gives you


Alsa is using the DMIX plugin for years, and before that I always had 
soundcards with hardware mixing. Simply buy the proper tools.



the ability to stream your audio across the network?


And if you don’t need these features?


Well, yes, if you've done the work to set all that up externally to
Pulseaudio, then of course you don't need Pulseaudio(!)


Most people simply want to play audio, no streaming, no stream moving, 
etc.


I have a USB soundcard. If I power it on pulseaudio doesn’t recognize it 
or only the analog output (I want to use the digital output). I have to 
restart pulseaudio (even with the current version in Debian Testing).


And now guess what is always working? Right, Alsa. If necessary it takes 
less than 10 seconds to reconfigure the sound device in the application.

So why should I use pulseaudio?

Shade and sweet water!

Stephan

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Re: Bug#727708: Fsck SystemD and its developers and its users. GR to override this please.

2014-02-12 Thread Stephan Seitz


On Wed, Feb 12, 2014 at 01:36:14PM +0100, Matthias Urlichs wrote:
Snarkiness aside, IMHO it makes much more sense to have the 
most-featureful init system be the default, because then those features 
actually get used and tested -- and thus the situation will be more 
reliable than if only those users/sysadmins switch to systemd who 
actually _are_ desperate for its features (as opposed to, say, those who 
are skeptics but find that they won't want to miss those selfsame 
features once they get used to them …).


Well, sounds like pulseaudio which got „forced” on the users and broke 
many setups to find bugs.


Users (at least users from Debian Stable) are not beta testers.

Shade and sweet water!

Stephan

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Re: Bug#727708: Fsck SystemD and its developers and its users. GR to override this please.

2014-02-12 Thread Paul Tagliamonte

On Wed, Feb 12, 2014 at 04:34:17PM +0100, Stephan Seitz wrote:
 Users (at least users from Debian Stable) are not beta testers.

This is assuming that either:

  1) This is not going to be tested in Debian
  2) systemd is not production quality


I don't think 1 is fair, seeing as how quite a few DDs (who are OK with
doing this change early and fine with being a beta tester, such as
myself) have been testing it for a while.

I also don't think 2 is fair, seeing as how it's enabled by default on
Arch, Fedora, OpenSUSE, RHEL (7, before that is upstart), CoreOS and a
few other derivitives (tanglu, siduction).

Perhaps you're interested in helping beta test it in unstable to
ensure your stable use-case works? (If not, that's cool too, just
offering to offer.)

 Shade and sweet water!

Ditto :)

   Stephan

-T



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Re: Bug#727708: Fsck SystemD and its developers and its users. GR to override this please.

2014-02-12 Thread Kevin Chadwick

On Wed, 12 Feb 2014 11:25:14 -0500
Paul Tagliamonte wrote:

  If they have decided on systemd as default [...]  
 
 https://lists.debian.org/debian-devel-announce/2014/02/msg5.html
 
 Can we please end this thread?

Sure but perhaps you could save me the trouble to say if there is a
general outline of the factors that the decision made was based upon
perhaops somewhere in the ctte mailing list archive. Or a round up
published before voting.

Don't tell me it was just a vote with licensing issues being taken by
many over real issues as some sites seem to be saying. Do voters give
their primary reasons?


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Re: Bug#727708: Fsck SystemD and its developers and its users. GR to override this please.

2014-02-12 Thread Andrei POPESCU

On Mi, 12 feb 14, 19:02:00, Kevin Chadwick wrote:
 On Wed, 12 Feb 2014 11:25:14 -0500
 Paul Tagliamonte wrote:
 
   If they have decided on systemd as default [...]  
  
  https://lists.debian.org/debian-devel-announce/2014/02/msg5.html
  
  Can we please end this thread?
 
 Sure but perhaps you could save me the trouble to say if there is a
 general outline of the factors that the decision made was based upon
 perhaops somewhere in the ctte mailing list archive. Or a round up
 published before voting.
 
 Don't tell me it was just a vote with licensing issues being taken by
 many over real issues as some sites seem to be saying. Do voters give
 their primary reasons?

Yes, as far as I recall all TC members have explained their reasoning 
quite thoroughly.

Kind regards,
Andrei
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Re: Bug#727708: Fsck SystemD and its developers and its users. GR to override this please.

2014-02-12 Thread Sune Vuorela

On 2014-02-12, Kevin Chadwick ma1l1i...@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
 On Wed, 12 Feb 2014 11:25:14 -0500
 Paul Tagliamonte wrote:
 
 https://lists.debian.org/debian-devel-announce/2014/02/msg5.html
 
 Can we please end this thread?

 Don't tell me it was just a vote with licensing issues being taken by
 many over real issues as some sites seem to be saying. Do voters give
 their primary reasons?


The link above does have a 'see link for discussion'.
People have said why they have voted what they voted.

Technical reasons seems to have been the primary driver behind it,
though a bit 'how healthy does the project seem to be' has also been
involved.

Licensing was mentioned, but I don't have the impression that it was
neither primary nor secondary concerns.

/Sune


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Re: Bug#727708: Fsck SystemD and its developers and its users. GR to override this please.

2014-02-12 Thread Matthias Urlichs

Hi,

Kevin Chadwick:
  Can we please end this thread?
 
 Sure but perhaps you could save me the trouble to say if there is a
 general outline of the factors that the decision made was based upon
 perhaops somewhere in the ctte mailing list archive. Or a round up
 published before voting.
 
The links to the proponents' position statements have been posted.
Multiple times. IMHO all arguments therein were relevant for the TC
members in some way or another.

 Don't tell me it was just a vote with licensing issues being taken by
 many over real issues

Definitely not.

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Re: Bug#727708: Fsck SystemD and its developers and its users. GR to override this please.

2014-02-12 Thread Matt Zagrabelny

On Wed, Feb 12, 2014 at 1:02 PM, Kevin Chadwick ma1l1i...@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
On Wed, 12 Feb 2014 11:25:14 -0500
Paul Tagliamonte wrote:

If they have decided on systemd as default [...]

https://lists.debian.org/debian-devel-announce/2014/02/msg5.html

Can we please end this thread?

Sure but perhaps you could save me the trouble to say if there is a
general outline of the factors that the decision made was based upon
perhaops somewhere in the ctte mailing list archive. Or a round up
published before voting.

Don't tell me it was just a vote with licensing issues being taken by
many over real issues as some sites seem to be saying. Do voters give
their primary reasons?

Kevin,

This is what I found. Hopefully it is useful.

Russ' reasoning:
https://lists.debian.org/debian-ctte/2013/12/msg00234.html

Colin's reasoning:
https://lists.debian.org/debian-ctte/2013/12/msg00296.html

Ian's reasoning:
https://lists.debian.org/debian-ctte/2013/12/msg00182.html

Bdale's reasoning:
https://lists.debian.org/debian-ctte/2014/01/msg00067.html

Digging through the mailing list archives to find the remaining CTTE
member's reasoning is left as an exercise to the reader. :)

-mz

PS. I'm looking forward to this thread ending - sorry for adding to it!

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Re: Bug#727708: Fsck SystemD and its developers and its users. GR to override this please.

On 02/12/2014 11:01 PM, John Paul Adrian Glaubitz wrote:
 Again, are you the listmaster or DPL or what?

I thought you were smarter and would understand you went too far and
should stop. Though if the only way to stop your insults is to go to the
DPL or the listmaster, I believe I wont even have to do it myself (I
don't think I should anyway, since I'm involved): someone else will be
upset by your wording in a public Debian list and will report you.

 yet you claim those are insults.

You will have a hard time convincing anyone that saying that someone is
derogative, arrogant, utterly annoying, hypocrite and dishonest is not
insulting.

 Your problem is that you can't accept defeat.

I have *no problem* with it, or anything else. I don't think I have lost
anything, or that there's even a defeat. The above sentence is very
silly, because it paints a very wrong picture of what happened. I
accepted OpenRC wouldn't be taken as default even before it happened. If
you think that's what I wrote, then you miss-interpreted.

 https://lists.debian.org/debian-ctte/2014/01/msg00340.html

What lead me to write was that:
- bdale wrote to me that he didn't evaluate OpenRC
- Russ wrote wrong statements on public list or blogs (I can't remember
which one it was, I believe it was his blog)
- Don stated he didn't spent much time with it or something similar

So, because this was a repeated pattern, I posted that message. I asked
for the TC to properly evaluate OpenRC, and explain why it wouldn't be
the choice.

I was very pleased by Ian Jackson's technical response, which helps us
for our (future) development. I don't see anything wrong in that, and I
believe what I asked for was legitimate.

 Also, please count how often you posted to debian-ctte and how
 often I posted to debian-ctte.

I tried to not post too much in this bug, and let the TC do its work. I
posted 10 messages to #727708, out of which 5 were talking about the
current status of OpenRC, which I believe was appreciated by the TC (at
least bdale seemed happy of these messages). In these messages, I wasn't
talking about anything else.

I have counted around 43 messages from Josselin Mouette, why don't you
complain about him posting too much? (note: I took Joss as a random
example, and I have no problem with him posting on the TC bug...)

Besides this, I'm the person behind the proposal of OpenRC, and there
was some direct inquiries, so I don't think 10 messages is a lot. You
can also see that Russ seemed happy about the corrections I contributed
to his statements, since he didn't evaluate OpenRC properly either (at
least at the beginning, not sure later on). Bdale also seemed pleased
with the reported status about Hurd support and so on.

Gosh, why do I even have to justify myself... This is crazy. Adrian,
look at the posts from Olav  Didier. I think they are representative of
the fact that your personal attacks toward me, leading to what I wrote
above, is of very little interest to anyone.

Yet, if you are again repeating the same pattern, your next move will
be: coming back after your insults, posting some more (why not, since
the listmasters accepted the previous ones?), then more critics of what
I do or did which will include wrong statement and reality distortion,
and then writing hey, I already wrote that we should stop... it's not
me who don't want to stop.

That's not the way you get to a more relaxed atmosphere. Pushing me to
justify myself on my behavior isn't the way to go either. If you are
sending direct attacks publicly, don't you think it's to be expected
that I reply to public accusations?

I'm not asking you to stop discussing here, even about the init system.
I've asked you to stop your insult and direct attacks toward me in
public lists. This leads to nowhere, and annoys everyone.

Thomas


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Re: Bug#727708: Fsck SystemD and its developers and its users. GR to override this please.

On 02/11/2014 12:53 PM, Clint Byrum wrote:
 Excerpts from Thomas Goirand's message of 2014-02-10 20:20:36 -0800:
 On 02/11/2014 04:10 AM, John Paul Adrian Glaubitz wrote:
 Do we allow users to choose their FireWire stack, WiFi or Audio Driver
 stack in the kernel? There were several alternative implementations
 of these, yet we only provide one of each.

 I don't see why we would explicitly forbid this choice (which has
 nothing to do with what we provide by default). Last time I checked, it
 was possible for our users to rebuild their own kernel. We even provide
 some userland tools for that.
 
 In the case of init system choice, having choice means having packages
 that work poorly with the non-default init system.
 
 Nobody wants to forbid OpenRC or Upstart. Having all four working init
 systems is a lot like having kFreeBSD and Hurd.
 
 However, the reason we can have kFreeBSD is basically POSIX. Some things
 don't work, but the majority of things do work. There is a long standing
 set of rules that things play by for the most part, and when they diverge,
 that is a choice they make.
 
 By and large these init systems work nothing like eachother. So having
 lots of them, means having lots of variation in init scripts, or having
 a lowest common denominator init format which AFAIK does not exist and
 would not achieve anything a switch away from sysvinit is intended to
 solve.
 
 So, perhaps if we teach Upstart and OpenRC to read systemd unit files,
 and they all can be expected to behave similarly, this will work out.
 Otherwise, giving everyone a choice just makes work for little gain.

You are talking as if we were starting from zero. Reality: all of our
packages support both sysv-rc and OpenRC. We only have to maintain that,
which is anyway important for our non-linux ports, and none of us have a
crystal ball to predict how it will happen. I don't think it's a good
idea to just give-up, or to spread the word that we should (give-up)
before things even happen.

The situation with upstart or systemd, if not chosen as default, will be
quite different, since not all packages are supporting them directly
right now. One of these 2 will suffer from the choice of default init
system.

Cheers,

Thomas


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Re: Bug#727708: Fsck SystemD and its developers and its users. GR to override this please.

2014-02-11 Thread Clint Byrum

Excerpts from Svante Signell's message of 2014-02-10 21:49:56 -0800:
 On Mon, 2014-02-10 at 20:53 -0800, Clint Byrum wrote:
 
  So, perhaps if we teach Upstart and OpenRC to read systemd unit files,
  and they all can be expected to behave similarly, this will work out.
  Otherwise, giving everyone a choice just makes work for little gain.
 
 Why should OpenRC and Upstart adapt to a format that is not standardized
 in _any_ way? The format specification should be written by Debian
 people (including downstream), and be a common denominator for all init
 systems wanting to be compatible. The proposal could be based on the LSB
 headers, and a good extension to that has recently been proposed by the
 sysvinit maintainer: Two line init.d scripts
 https://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/2014/02/msg00106.html

Meh. Pick one.

 
 Additionally a very good proposal for a PID 1 program was in
 http://ewontfix.com/14/ Broken by design: systemd, copied here for
 convenience:
 
 #define _XOPEN_SOURCE 700
 #include signal.h
 #include unistd.h
 
 int main()
 {
 sigset_t set;
 int status;
 
 if (getpid() != 1) return 1;
 
 sigfillset(set);
 sigprocmask(SIG_BLOCK, set, 0);
 
 if (fork()) for (;;) wait(status);
 
 sigprocmask(SIG_UNBLOCK, set, 0);
 
 setsid();
 setpgid(0, 0);
 return execve(/etc/rc, (char *[]){ rc, 0 }, (char *[]){ 0 });
 }
 

Indeed, I have no problem with this approach and I'm not crazy about
systemd's scope. But if the default ends up as systemd, it gets a bonus
as the one to follow in the Linux world so IMO it is an easier choice to
just use their syntax.


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Re: Bug#727708: Fsck SystemD and its developers and its users. GR to override this please.

On 02/11/2014 03:09 AM, Vitaliy Filippov wrote:
 Excuse me, but this reply isn't appropriate, just as much as the OP.
 Redirecting him to another Unix distribution isn't the thing to do.

 Instead, you should have informed the OP that we will continue to
 support not only systemd, upstart, or whichever becomes the default.
 Because that's the plan. And nobody will force anyone to use the default
 settings, just like nobody is forced to use the default desktop.
 
 It seems that in case of systemd it may end being forced, doesn't Gnome
 3 depend on it?

We have between 40 and 50 window managers in Debian. Nobody forces you
to use Gnome. How about switching to TWM! :)

 I have another idea - maybe systemd could be split in parts in Debian? I
 think it would fix some objections.

This has been discussed at large already.

It would. But neither upstream nor the Debian package maintainers wish
to have (or wish to do the work so that) systemd (is) split into
relevant independent parts. This is a shame, because that's the most
controversial issue, but that's a a view which can be defended: they
believe in the current design, where each component is used by another.

 I.e. for example, systemd-journal looks like the most bloated part of
 systemd to me, with its binary log format, QR codes and built-in HTTP
 server - so maybe it could be disabled via a patch? Or even packaged
 separately so you can choose whether to install it? Is anyone familiar
 with systemd code - does it look possible and/or simple task to you?

As much as I understood, systemd-journal is the part which is the most
optional, and which you can avoid completely currently. Problem is: we
have no idea how long this is going to be truth (as it happened with
logind and other components).

I don't think it is reasonable to expect Debian systemd maintainers will
do the work of separating each components to make them independent. They
haven't stated that this is what they want to do.

Thomas


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Re: Bug#727708: Fsck SystemD and its developers and its users. GR to override this please.

2014-02-11 Thread Clint Byrum

Excerpts from Thomas Goirand's message of 2014-02-11 00:02:38 -0800:
 On 02/11/2014 12:53 PM, Clint Byrum wrote:
  Excerpts from Thomas Goirand's message of 2014-02-10 20:20:36 -0800:
  On 02/11/2014 04:10 AM, John Paul Adrian Glaubitz wrote:
  Do we allow users to choose their FireWire stack, WiFi or Audio Driver
  stack in the kernel? There were several alternative implementations
  of these, yet we only provide one of each.
 
  I don't see why we would explicitly forbid this choice (which has
  nothing to do with what we provide by default). Last time I checked, it
  was possible for our users to rebuild their own kernel. We even provide
  some userland tools for that.
  
  In the case of init system choice, having choice means having packages
  that work poorly with the non-default init system.
  
  Nobody wants to forbid OpenRC or Upstart. Having all four working init
  systems is a lot like having kFreeBSD and Hurd.
  
  However, the reason we can have kFreeBSD is basically POSIX. Some things
  don't work, but the majority of things do work. There is a long standing
  set of rules that things play by for the most part, and when they diverge,
  that is a choice they make.
  
  By and large these init systems work nothing like eachother. So having
  lots of them, means having lots of variation in init scripts, or having
  a lowest common denominator init format which AFAIK does not exist and
  would not achieve anything a switch away from sysvinit is intended to
  solve.
  
  So, perhaps if we teach Upstart and OpenRC to read systemd unit files,
  and they all can be expected to behave similarly, this will work out.
  Otherwise, giving everyone a choice just makes work for little gain.
 
 You are talking as if we were starting from zero. Reality: all of our
 packages support both sysv-rc and OpenRC. We only have to maintain that,
 which is anyway important for our non-linux ports, and none of us have a
 crystal ball to predict how it will happen. I don't think it's a good
 idea to just give-up, or to spread the word that we should (give-up)
 before things even happen.
 

One point of moving to a system like upstart or systemd is that the
sysvinit scripts do not run as scripts. They are little tiny declarative
files that run all or most in C. This speeds up boot, but only makes
sense if all of the early stage boot things make use of it.

Leaving most things to just use the sysvinit compatibility layer means
not realizing one of the more important benefits of the default init
system if it should in fact turn out to be systemd.

So at best you're talking about maintaining two for every daemon. That
is still roughly twice the maintenance work and twice the testing.

Not saying I like it, but that is where choice hurts Debian. Perhaps
having the choice will also help Debian enough to make it worthwhile.


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Re: Bug#727708: Fsck SystemD and its developers and its users. GR to override this please.

2014-02-11 Thread Vitaliy Filippov


We have between 40 and 50 window managers in Debian. Nobody forces you

to use Gnome. How about switching to TWM!

No problem, I never actually used Gnome3, because I dislike it even more  
than systemd... I only tried it several times... :)



I.e. for example, systemd-journal looks like the most bloated part of
systemd to me, with its binary log format, QR codes and built-in HTTP
server - so maybe it could be disabled via a patch? Or even packaged
separately so you can choose whether to install it? Is anyone familiar
with systemd code - does it look possible and/or simple task to you?


As much as I understood, systemd-journal is the part which is the most
optional, and which you can avoid completely currently. Problem is: we
have no idea how long this is going to be truth (as it happened with
logind and other components).


Maybe it's optional, but there's no option to disable it currently. You  
can only configure it to not store logs and send them to syslog - so it  
will be still running.



I don't think it is reasonable to expect Debian systemd maintainers will
do the work of separating each components to make them independent. They
haven't stated that this is what they want to do.


I think Debian project is significant enough to have some influence on  
systemd development, i.e. at least send patches, and in this case Debian  
won't end up using any non-standard version. This can also reduce the  
risk of vendor-lock, because the speed Lennart adds features to systemd  
is so fast that I won't be really surprised if he adds HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE  
and HKEY_CURRENT_USER next. And everyone will be forced to use that new  
feature [registry] if Debian project won't have any influence on systemd.  
That's what I call vendor-lock :)


As I understand systemd has relatively active community with many  
developers from different distros (am I right?) so it should be no problem  
for Debian developers to also join it.


I mean that Debian systemd maintainers could try to untangle that ball of

current design, where each component is used by another

and even try to upstream this work! :)

...and it really seems like a good decision to me, because it would really  
fix some of its problems and make systemd-haters feel better... :)


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With best regards,
  Vitaliy Filippov


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Re: Bug#727708: Fsck SystemD and its developers and its users. GR to override this please.

2014-02-11 Thread Andrei POPESCU

On Ma, 11 feb 14, 00:31:18, Clint Byrum wrote:
 
 Leaving most things to just use the sysvinit compatibility layer means
 not realizing one of the more important benefits of the default init
 system if it should in fact turn out to be systemd.
 
 So at best you're talking about maintaining two for every daemon. That
 is still roughly twice the maintenance work and twice the testing.
 
 Not saying I like it, but that is where choice hurts Debian. Perhaps
 having the choice will also help Debian enough to make it worthwhile.

According to Russ Allbery, it's easier to maintain both systemd and 
upstart declarations than one sysv init script.

Kind regards,
Andrei
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Re: Bug#727708: Fsck SystemD and its developers and its users. GR to override this please.

2014-02-11 Thread Andrei POPESCU

On Ma, 11 feb 14, 06:49:56, Svante Signell wrote:
 On Mon, 2014-02-10 at 20:53 -0800, Clint Byrum wrote:
 
  So, perhaps if we teach Upstart and OpenRC to read systemd unit files,
  and they all can be expected to behave similarly, this will work out.
  Otherwise, giving everyone a choice just makes work for little gain.
 
 Why should OpenRC and Upstart adapt to a format that is not standardized
 in _any_ way? The format specification should be written by Debian
 people (including downstream), and be a common denominator for all init
 systems wanting to be compatible. 

And the obligatory XKCD:
http://xkcd.com/927/

Kind regards,
Andrei
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Re: don't panic - rejoice: jessie will be awesome and supporting lots of inits! (was: Re: Bug#727708: Fsck SystemD and its developers and its users. GR to override this please.

2014-02-11 Thread Josselin Mouette

Le lundi 10 février 2014 à 22:13 +0100, Holger Levsen a écrit : 
 And probably jessie should come with a slogan once again: Debian - there can 
 be more than one init system - or something like this :)

Supporting multiple init systems is the least relevant thing to do,
since it multiplies the work to be done.
http://islinuxaboutchoice.com/

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Re: Bug#727708: Fsck SystemD and its developers and its users. GR to override this please.

On Tue, Feb 11, 2014 at 06:49:56AM +0100, Svante Signell wrote:
 Additionally a very good proposal for a PID 1 program was in
 http://ewontfix.com/14/ Broken by design: systemd, copied here for
 convenience:

I like how people copy/paste blog articles. Did you read this article?
It completely lacks detail and where it does, it is conflicting with
itself.

E.g. Reboot to Upgrade, while a bit later: systemd's systemctl has a
daemon-reexec command to make systemd serialize its state, re-exec
itself. Meaning: reboot to upgrade is not needed, answer is given in
the same text. The objections to daemon-reexec are vague.

It's nice to copy/paste this blog, but moving all functionality from
pid1 and putting them in pid2 is cool. But you're still totally relying
on everything in pid2, so same difference.

It pretends to be technical, but the technical bits it does discuss are
conflicting.

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Re: Bug#727708: Fsck SystemD and its developers and its users. GR to override this please.

On Mon, Feb 10, 2014 at 11:09:10PM +0400, Vitaliy Filippov wrote:
 I.e. for example, systemd-journal looks like the most bloated part
 of systemd to me, with its binary log format, QR codes and built-in
 HTTP server - so maybe it could be disabled via a patch? Or even
 packaged separately so you can choose whether to install it? Is
 anyone familiar with systemd code - does it look possible and/or
 simple task to you?

QR codes is optional
Built-in HTTP server is optional

Binary logging - yeah, it logs stuff. Calling logging functionality in a
program which is meant to log things is a bit much.

You cannot separate it, if you look at status output of a service it'll
use the journal to give you useful output. Splitting things has
sideeffects. If the gain is uncertain of vague (I don't like it /
UNIX philosophy), then IMO time to trust the package maintainer.

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Re: Bug#727708: Fsck SystemD and its developers and its users. GR to override this please.

On Tue, Feb 11, 2014 at 12:51:13PM +0400, Vitaliy Filippov wrote:
 I think Debian project is significant enough to have some influence
 on systemd development, i.e. at least send patches, and in this case

- Debian has sent patches upstream
- Mageia is *much* smaller distribution, that packager has attended
  *various* systemd hackfests
- Mageia package maintainer sent various patches upstream
- Patches are *not* accepted based on how many people you represent
  or which company you work for (e.g. some Red Hat dude got a no
  during hackfest before FOSDEM)

 Debian won't end up using any non-standard version. This can also
 reduce the risk of vendor-lock, because the speed Lennart adds
 features to systemd is so fast that I won't be really surprised if
 he adds HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE and HKEY_CURRENT_USER next. And everyone
 will be forced to use that new feature [registry] if Debian project
 won't have any influence on systemd. That's what I call vendor-lock
 :)

Features are discussed beforehand at loads of conferences. I think
resorting to Windows registry to make a point says enough. The project
is under active development, that's is a good thing. If you have needs,
make them known. Be positive, not distrustful and you'll go a long way.

 As I understand systemd has relatively active community with many
 developers from different distros (am I right?) so it should be no
 problem for Debian developers to also join it.

AFAIK people are already active.

 I mean that Debian systemd maintainers could try to untangle that ball of
 current design, where each component is used by another
 and even try to upstream this work! :)

This is all very vague and non specific.

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Re: Bug#727708: Fsck SystemD and its developers and its users. GR to override this please.

On 02/11/2014 05:20 AM, Thomas Goirand wrote:
 It's like being able to customize internal parts of your cars engine
 when ordering one from your dealer. Customers don't care who the
 manufacturer of your ignition system is as long it's the best
 possible one. (Yes, I know comparisons with cars are bad ;)).
 
 That's partly not truth. Some customers care, and do customization of
 their car.

No, it's absolutely not. You can have the choice for the interior
design, the paint job, the radio, the type of engine and comfort
features, but you certainly cannot have the choice on internal
parts like the ignition system or starter motor.

Furthermore, if you do decide to replace these parts on your own,
you will end up losing your car manufacturer's warranty.

And this is very much what I would see in Debian. Use your desktop
and applications of choice and you will get support, but if you
want to change core components, you are free to do so, but you
will lose support.

A very reasonable approach in my opinion as you weigh the cost
of maintenance vs. advantage of being able to choose.

 Neglecting reliability and maintainability for the sake of being
 able to choose such a core component is a bad idea. I do not
 think it's really feasible to maintain several init systems, it
 just affects too many components of the system.
 
 It's just up to the volunteers, which was my message. If some of us car,
 it's going to be possible. If there's not enough interest, then you are
 right.

And since there are virtually no volunteers for OpenRC besides
you and the other two OpenRC maintainers, Roger and Benda, it
will be unsupported at some point when you guys step down.

Do you really think this is a desirable situation for our users?

I have seen you asking for help on OpenRC so many times during
these discussion, but I am yet to see people raise their hands
and say Yes Thomas, I am going to help you!

All I read are statements from you like Yes, it would work
in general if we had someone to implement it, I don't have
the time right now unfortunately.

See, I am one of the people involved in the m68k port of Debian.
Just recently, one of our main contributors decided to jump
the ship who cannot be replaced by someone else easily as
public interest in the m68k port is simply way too low meaning
we have lost lots of development manpower.

Thus, I fully agree that m68k has been abandoned as a release
architecture long time ago. It's nice that it's there, but
there isn't any official support and the rest of Debian
shouldn't have to worry about it.

 We don't even manage to maintain two versions of ffmpeg (the original
 and the fork) even though many users actually prefer the original. How
 should this even work with the init system then?
 
 Maybe no DD cares enough for ffmpeg?

No, it's because it's not possible to have libav and ffmpeg packaged
at the same time due to conflicting so names and the fact that reverse
dependencies would have to be taken care of as well.

 On 02/11/2014 04:10 AM, John Paul Adrian Glaubitz wrote:
 Again, I do not understand how our users will actually profit from
 being able to choose their init system.
 
 It doesn't mater, we don't force our thinking on you. Nor it's a good
 idea that you try to convince everyone that they should adopt *your*
 choice. I believe there's been enough discussion so that you will agree
 not everyone shares your view on systemd. I don't see it as a problem
 anymore.

It's not *my* choice, systemd is the choice of the majority of the
Linux community. OpenRC and upstart are used in Gentoo and Ubuntu
only (ChromeOS doesn't really count in that context, it's a more
or less closed system by Google), while virtually every other
of the large distributions has adopted systemd.

Using something which is not widely adopted and has very few supporters
in the development community means that if any of the OpenRC or
Upstart people will decide to retire, these systems will lose
much more development manpower than systemd does.

 Can you imagine this being an option in Debian Installer just like
 you can configure your time zone or filesystems? What would you
 write to the description texts of the different choices?
 
 Ubuntu users have a choice of installer: the Debian one and the standard
 Ubuntu one. I don't use the standard Ubuntu installer, though I have no
 pb with others using it.

That's not what I said. I asked whether it's possible to choose
the init system in the installer and it's not possible in either
the Ubuntu or Debian installer.

 It's crazy just to think about it.
 
 I don't see any craziness, it's just like all of Debian: volunteer
 based, and depending on everyone's motivation and involvement.

And that's the exact problem with OpenRC and Upstart - besides the
technical side - there are just a handful of volunteers in the
whole Linux community while systemd has a very large community meaning
even if any of their main developers decide to step back at some
point,

Re: Bug#727708: Fsck SystemD and its developers and its users. GR to override this please.

On 02/11/2014 09:02 AM, Thomas Goirand wrote:
 The situation with upstart or systemd, if not chosen as default, will be
 quite different, since not all packages are supporting them directly
 right now. One of these 2 will suffer from the choice of default init
 system.

What? That's not true. As people have explained here before - even
directly to you - both Upstart and systemd have perfect backwards
compatibility with sysvinit scripts.

And at least for systemd, you can simply install the package and
start using it with init=/bin/systemd from the next reboot on. No
further changes are necessary and everything works right
out-of-the-box. And if you want to go back to sysvinit, just
remove the init line from the kernel command line and uninstall
the systemd package.

Adrian

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Re: Bug#727708: Fsck SystemD and its developers and its users. GR to override this please.

On 02/11/2014 09:13 AM, Thomas Goirand wrote:
 It seems that in case of systemd it may end being forced, doesn't Gnome
 3 depend on it?
 
 We have between 40 and 50 window managers in Debian. Nobody forces you
 to use Gnome. How about switching to TWM! :)

Window managers are leaf packages, at least they should be. If awesome
or fvwm are broken, other window managers or desktops won't be
affected at all.

If you are running into problems with your init system, you are risking
to affect hundreds of other packages. Core components like init should
be carefully chosen and maintained to be able to guarantee a stable
environment.

Adrian

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Re: Bug#727708: Fsck SystemD and its developers and its users. GR to override this please.

On Tue, 2014-02-11 at 10:08 +0100, Olav Vitters wrote:
 On Tue, Feb 11, 2014 at 06:49:56AM +0100, Svante Signell wrote:
  Additionally a very good proposal for a PID 1 program was in
  http://ewontfix.com/14/ Broken by design: systemd, copied here for
  convenience:
 
 I like how people copy/paste blog articles. Did you read this article?

Of course I've read it.

 It completely lacks detail and where it does, it is conflicting with
 itself.
 
 E.g. Reboot to Upgrade, while a bit later: systemd's systemctl has a
 daemon-reexec command to make systemd serialize its state, re-exec
 itself. Meaning: reboot to upgrade is not needed, answer is given in
 the same text. The objections to daemon-reexec are vague.

I'll do some more reading on daemon-rexec before saying more.

But: Don't you se the the current development is heading towards a
Windows locked-in situation, and a reboot is necessary for every
upgrade?

kdbus, udev, gnome, network-manager, pulseaudio, wayland, (add to the
list here)


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Re: Bug#727708: Fsck SystemD and its developers and its users. GR to override this please.

On Tue, 2014-02-11 at 10:27 +0100, John Paul Adrian Glaubitz wrote:

 See, I am one of the people involved in the m68k port of Debian.
 Just recently, one of our main contributors decided to jump
 the ship who cannot be replaced by someone else easily as
 public interest in the m68k port is simply way too low meaning
 we have lost lots of development manpower.

All people are replaceable, how could companies continue making products
when seniors retire and juniors replace them?


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Re: Bug#727708: Fsck SystemD and its developers and its users. GR to override this please.

On 02/11/2014 11:03 AM, Svante Signell wrote:
 On Tue, 2014-02-11 at 10:27 +0100, John Paul Adrian Glaubitz wrote:
 
 See, I am one of the people involved in the m68k port of Debian.
 Just recently, one of our main contributors decided to jump
 the ship who cannot be replaced by someone else easily as
 public interest in the m68k port is simply way too low meaning
 we have lost lots of development manpower.
 
 All people are replaceable, how could companies continue making products
 when seniors retire and juniors replace them?

Sure, they are replaceable. However, it's sometimes simply not possible
to find someone who has both the necessary expertise and is willing
to help. And this is why this needs to be factored in the decision
making process.

Adrian

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Re: Bug#727708: Fsck SystemD and its developers and its users. GR to override this please.

2014-02-11 Thread Emilio Pozuelo Monfort

On 11/02/14 10:57, Svante Signell wrote:
 kdbus, udev, gnome, network-manager, pulseaudio, wayland, (add to the
 list here)

I fail to see what your point is here.


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Re: Bug#727708: Fsck SystemD and its developers and its users. GR to override this please.


- Debian has sent patches upstream
- Mageia is *much* smaller distribution, that packager has attended 
*various* systemd hackfests

- Mageia package maintainer sent various patches upstream
- Patches are *not* accepted based on how many people you represent or 
which company you work for (e.g. some Red Hat dude got a no during 
hackfest before FOSDEM)


Glad to hear that! :)


QR codes is optional
Built-in HTTP server is optional

Binary logging - yeah, it logs stuff. Calling logging functionality in 
a

program which is meant to log things is a bit much.


It's not just calling logging functionality, it's running an own 
logging daemon that supports a lot of other things. calling logging 
functionality is syslog(3) or maybe even printf(3) :))) and it should 
be enough for software that just logs stuff. :)



You cannot separate it, if you look at status output of a service it'll
use the journal to give you useful output. Splitting things has
sideeffects. If the gain is uncertain of vague (I don't like it /
UNIX philosophy), then IMO time to trust the package maintainer.


Of course it has side effects! That's why people call it monolithic and 
that's why it needs some decoupling. Do you agree that a modular program 
is generally better than a non-modular one?


And yes, I can't say how much I don't like Windows-like ideas of binary 
logs / binary configs / unified registry and etc. Yeah, yeah, I know 
there are no binary configs in systemd, that's just an example. :)


And it seems I'm not the only one who doesn't like it! And I'm sure that 
at least 50% of swear words addressed to systemd could be stopped at 
once if the journal was made ALSO optional. So why not just do it?...


I'm not familiar with systemd code, but since it seems Debian faces 
systemd becoming the default, I even want to try to make journal 
optional by myself... :) the downside is that I don't know if systemd 
developers will like it at all. :(



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Re: Bug#727708: Fsck SystemD and its developers and its users. GR to override this please.

On Tue, 2014-02-11 at 11:47 +0100, Emilio Pozuelo Monfort wrote:
 On 11/02/14 10:57, Svante Signell wrote:
  kdbus, udev, gnome, network-manager, pulseaudio, wayland, (add to the
  list here)
 
 I fail to see what your point is here.

systemd dependencies of course, the vendor lock-in strategy is
successful: (the packages below are all from the source systemd)

build-rdeps libsystemd-login-dev

colord
gnome-packagekit
gnome-disk-utility
pulseaudio
dbus
accountsservice
weston
gvfs
packagekit

build-rdeps libgudev-1.0-dev

umockdev
entangle
gnomad2
shotwell
gst-plugins-good1.0
udisks2
indicator-session
update-notifier
webkitgtk
rhythmbox
libgusb
gst-plugins-bad1.0
network-manager-applet
gimp
gnome-settings-daemon
thunar
gammu
upower
modemmanager
thunar-volman
udisks
cheese
gnome-dvb-daemon
handbrake
gst-plugins-good0.10
xfburn
gst-plugins-base1.0
gnome-boxes
buzztard
python-gudev
gxine
network-manager
gvfs
simple-scan
empathy
gudev-sharp-1.0
libmbim
libwacom
colord
spice-gtk
cinnamon
gst-plugins-base0.10

build-rdeps libsystemd-journal-dev
==
packagekit
realmd
dbus

build-rdeps libudev-dev
===
libvirt
mountall
upstart
xserver-xorg-input-evdev
qwbfsmanager
libdrm
hplip
libsdl2
udisks
mesa
pulseaudio
vlc
tcplay
cgminer
media-ctl
libusbx
gqrx-sdr
multipath-tools
xserver-xorg-video-ati
bfgminer
libsigrok
udevil
libldm
qthid-fcd-controller
connman
consolekit
qtmobility
simpleburn
spacefm
bluez
xboxdrv
libopenusb
ofono
qextserialport
xserver-xorg-video-nouveau
umockdev
qtserialport-opensource-src
weston
urfkill
olpc-kbdshim
xserver-xorg-video-intel
flightgear
xorg-server
xserver-xorg-video-modesetting
gvfs
xwiimote
xf86-input-wacom
libatasmart
petitboot
xf86-video-omap
system-config-printer
chromium-browser
razorqt
libcec
higan
pcsc-lite
pyqt5
enna
guvcview
kde4libs
linphone
xbmc
kde-workspace
lvm2
network-manager
qtbase-opensource-src
pyudev

Do you want more examples?


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Re: Bug#727708: Fsck SystemD and its developers and its users. GR to override this please.

On Tue, Feb 11, 2014 at 10:27:04AM +0100, John Paul Adrian Glaubitz wrote:
 And this is very much what I would see in Debian. Use your desktop
 and applications of choice and you will get support, but if you
 want to change core components, you are free to do so, but you
 will lose support.

 [ Below all not directed to John, just additional comments ]

If suddenly OpenRC (or whatever) gets loads and loads of contributors,
gets lots of init scripts, solves/provides an logind alternative and
does whatever to improve then it should be supported. However, the
support should come from the OpenRC team / interested people. You cannot
assign :-P

IMO (and I'm an interested part / GNOME dude, so no say): blocking
progress is bad. So if someone wants to add OpenRC scripts to packages
and maintenance is low: as packager you should be allowing that to
happen. As long as the time required on packagers part is minimal. Only
by not blocking progress things can move to working nicely. But that
also means that it really falls under the task of people interested in
something different to make such change happen. At the moment there is
too much blocking progress going on IMO (but then against anything
other than sysvinit).

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Olav


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Re: Bug#727708: Fsck SystemD and its developers and its users. GR to override this please.

On Tue, Feb 11, 2014 at 03:02:13PM +0400, vita...@yourcmc.ru wrote:
 QR codes is optional
 Built-in HTTP server is optional
 
 Binary logging - yeah, it logs stuff. Calling logging
 functionality in a
 program which is meant to log things is a bit much.
 
 It's not just calling logging functionality, it's running an own
 logging daemon that supports a lot of other things. calling
 logging functionality is syslog(3) or maybe even printf(3) :))) and
 it should be enough for software that just logs stuff. :)

But all those other things are optional.

You mention e.g. maybe even printf(3): Loads of desktop software
prints error output. Which is then pretty hidden from any user. Unless
you know about ~/.xsession-errors and the various other files. The
journal allows (with some work) to log this output and identify which
application generated those messages and do this quickly. This across
desktops, without duplicating code across desktops.

So you could have a GUI which shows you the warnings/errors/etc of
Firefox / Iceweasel. Without having to know what firefox-bin and so on
means.

 You cannot separate it, if you look at status output of a service it'll
 use the journal to give you useful output. Splitting things has
 sideeffects. If the gain is uncertain of vague (I don't like it /
 UNIX philosophy), then IMO time to trust the package maintainer.
 
 Of course it has side effects! That's why people call it monolithic
 and that's why it needs some decoupling. Do you agree that a modular
 program is generally better than a non-modular one?

That's very vague statement to make. It is never modular is better or
worse than non-modular. E.g. Linux kernel is monolithic, micro kernel
might be more modular. Practically: Linux has modules.

Other example:
$ wget http://packages.debian.org/wheezy/amd64/coreutils/filelist -O- | grep 
bin -c
102

This coreutils package has 102 binaries. Is it modular? According to
you, no! Try splitting this up into subpackages. What is the gain?

 And it seems I'm not the only one who doesn't like it! And I'm sure
 that at least 50% of swear words addressed to systemd could be
 stopped at once if the journal was made ALSO optional. So why not
 just do it?...

People will not like and complain no matter. It is better to make
informed judgements than to respond purely on emotional responses.
Making a journal optional has a tradeoff. It's not free. Try splitting
coreutils up into 5 separate subpackages to get an impression of such
tradeoffs.

-- 
Regards,
Olav


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Re: Bug#727708: Fsck SystemD and its developers and its users. GR to override this please.

Hi,

Svante Signell:
 But: Don't you se the the current development is heading towards a
 Windows locked-in situation, and a reboot is necessary for every
 upgrade?
 
How so? You can upgrade systemd. (SysVinit doesn't have any features beyond
re-reading /etc/inittab you might want to upgrade _for_ …)

 kdbus, udev, gnome, network-manager, pulseaudio, wayland, (add to the
 list here)
 
kdbus is a kernel module, you don't upgrade that without upgrading the
kernel. I see no good solution to do a non-reboot kernel upgrade any time
soon; if you do need that, process migration works these days, so put a
second box beside the original one which takes over temporarily.

You can restart pulse. No big problem except temporary interrupt of audio,
which cannot be avoided. Presumably it'll never be possible to seamlessly
re-exec Wayland, but then that was never possible with X11, so what exactly
are you complaining about?

You can restart udev. No problem. So can network-manager; not quite as
seamlessly, but then your network connections should tolerate a few seconds
of outage; if they don't don't use NM.

So if that's your biggest argument against systemd, I guess you'll have no
problem when Debian switches to it.

-- 
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Re: Bug#727708: Fsck SystemD and its developers and its users. GR to override this please.

Hi,

Svante Signell:
 All people are replaceable, how could companies continue making products
 when seniors retire and juniors replace them?
 
A company can tell its workers now you either do that or we won't pay you
and your family won't eat. (And even then, people you can reasonably tell
that to might not be available.)

Debian cannot. We'd end up with another ConsoleKit situation –
unmaintained, needs work, plus there's something better available
right now, so why would anybody bother …

Any other not-well-thought-out arguments?

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Re: Bug#727708: Fsck SystemD and its developers and its users. GR to override this please.

On Tue, Feb 11, 2014 at 12:18:23PM +0100, Svante Signell wrote:
 systemd dependencies of course, the vendor lock-in strategy is
 successful: (the packages below are all from the source systemd)
[..]
 Do you want more examples?

You skipped over the bit explaining:
- where the vendor lock in is?
  See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vendor_lock-in
  and e.g. Microsoft software carries a high level of vendor lock-in,
  based on its extensive set of proprietary APIs and how this relates
  to your list
- how systemd is driving this possibility (aka the forcing) vs
  developers just making their lives easier

-- 
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Olav


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Re: Bug#727708: Fsck SystemD and its developers and its users. GR to override this please.

On 02/11/2014 12:23 PM, Olav Vitters wrote:
 On Tue, Feb 11, 2014 at 10:27:04AM +0100, John Paul Adrian Glaubitz wrote:
 And this is very much what I would see in Debian. Use your desktop
 and applications of choice and you will get support, but if you
 want to change core components, you are free to do so, but you
 will lose support.
 
  [ Below all not directed to John, just additional comments ]

The name's Adrian :).

 If suddenly OpenRC (or whatever) gets loads and loads of contributors,
 gets lots of init scripts, solves/provides an logind alternative and
 does whatever to improve then it should be supported. However, the
 support should come from the OpenRC team / interested people. You cannot
 assign :-P

Yes, but we are not talking about hypothetical things. I am also not
planning my life for the case that I am winning the lottery tomorrow.

The current situation is that OpenRC has little adoption and a very
small development team while systemd is quite the opposite on both
terms. And this is an important fact you cannot ignore.

 IMO (and I'm an interested part / GNOME dude, so no say): blocking
 progress is bad. So if someone wants to add OpenRC scripts to packages
 and maintenance is low: as packager you should be allowing that to
 happen. As long as the time required on packagers part is minimal. Only
 by not blocking progress things can move to working nicely. But that
 also means that it really falls under the task of people interested in
 something different to make such change happen. At the moment there is
 too much blocking progress going on IMO (but then against anything
 other than sysvinit).

I agree. In any case, the OpenRC supporters should understand that their
system isn't high priority just as the m68k port isn't high priority
meaning I am not going to block you from doing your own thing, but
don't expect me to invest lots of time and efforts into it.

Adrian

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Re: Bug#727708: Fsck SystemD and its developers and its users. GR to override this please.

2014-02-11 Thread Salvo Tomaselli


 You can restart pulse. No big problem except temporary interrupt of audio,
You mean a temporary presence of audio that will immediately go away as soon 
as pulse is running again right?


-- 

Salvo Tomaselli

Io non mi sento obbligato a credere che lo stesso Dio che ci ha dotato di
senso, ragione ed intelletto intendesse che noi ne facessimo a meno.
-- Galileo Galilei

http://ltworf.github.io/ltworf/


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Re: Bug#727708: Fsck SystemD and its developers and its users. GR to override this please.

Hi,

vita...@yourcmc.ru:
 And it seems I'm not the only one who doesn't like it! And I'm sure
 that at least 50% of swear words addressed to systemd could be
 stopped at once if the journal was made ALSO optional. So why not
 just do it?...
 
Because it's work, for no apparent gain. I mean, the systemd people didn't
just code up all that journal stuff for no good reason, but because they
perceived a need to have it. And let's face it, the ability to just see the
stderr output from $FAILED_JOB with systemctl status is a whole damn lot
better than to restart the thing in the foreground and hope to be able to
reproduce the problem that caused it to die.

You can split off systemd-journal and its supporting files into a separate
binary package. That'd probably be quite simple. The question is, why would
you even want to ..?

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Re: Bug#727708: Fsck SystemD and its developers and its users. GR to override this please.

Hi,

Salvo Tomaselli:
 
  You can restart pulse. No big problem except temporary interrupt of audio,
 You mean a temporary presence of audio that will immediately go away as soon 
 as pulse is running again right?
 
Don't be daft. My audio works perfectly. So does lots of other people's.

If yours doesn't, file a bug.

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Re: Bug#727708: Fsck SystemD and its developers and its users. GR to override this please.

2014-02-11 Thread The Wanderer

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA512

On 02/11/2014 04:21 AM, Olav Vitters wrote:

 On Tue, Feb 11, 2014 at 12:51:13PM +0400, Vitaliy Filippov wrote:

 This can also reduce the risk of vendor-lock, because the speed
 Lennart adds features to systemd is so fast that I won't be really
 surprised if he adds HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE and HKEY_CURRENT_USER next.
 And everyone will be forced to use that new feature [registry] if
 Debian project won't have any influence on systemd. That's what I
 call vendor-lock :)
 
 Features are discussed beforehand at loads of conferences. I think
 resorting to Windows registry to make a point says enough. The
 project is under active development, that's is a good thing. If you
 have needs, make them known. Be positive, not distrustful and you'll
 go a long way.

I think this touches on - or possibly misses - a key point.

I do not trust the systemd project to not do things I consider bad or
even insane, because they've already done such things, and they show no
regret or repentance over having done so.

I've seen the same thing with the Mozilla project.

I've seen the same thing with Microsoft.

I believe all of those groups are acting in good faith, working towards
what they see as good goals, with good intentions, and I trust them to
continue to do that; based on the evidence of history, I no longer trust
that the result of that work will be - or, if it once is, will continue
to be - something *I* would consider good.

As such, advice to not be distrustful seems to me to be lacking an
essential foundation.

- --
   The Wanderer

Secrecy is the beginning of tyranny.

A government exists to serve its citizens, not to control them.
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Re: Bug#727708: Fsck SystemD and its developers and its users. GR to override this please.

2014-02-11 Thread Oleg

On Tue, Feb 11, 2014 at 10:27:04AM +0100, John Paul Adrian Glaubitz wrote:
 It's not *my* choice, systemd is the choice of the majority of the
 Linux community. OpenRC and upstart are used in Gentoo and Ubuntu

  What? I see many people who don't like systemd and won't use it. I don't
see that systemd is the choice of the _majority_. But i see that systemd
funs simply shout louder than others.


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Re: Bug#727708: Fsck SystemD and its developers and its users. GR to override this please.

Because it's work, for no apparent gain. I mean, the systemd people 
didn't
just code up all that journal stuff for no good reason, but because 
they
perceived a need to have it. And let's face it, the ability to just see 
the
stderr output from $FAILED_JOB with systemctl status is a whole damn 
lot
better than to restart the thing in the foreground and hope to be able 
to

reproduce the problem that caused it to die.

You can split off systemd-journal and its supporting files into a 
separate
binary package. That'd probably be quite simple. The question is, why 
would

you even want to ..?


Because I want logs to be plaintext in my system, not binary.

And I don't see why a binary log format is needed to implement the 
stderr capture.


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Re: Bug#727708: Fsck SystemD and its developers and its users. GR to override this please.

2014-02-11 Thread Salvo Tomaselli

Well if a bug can be solved by killing the buggy process and getting better 
functionality than when the process is running is certainly a very very bad 
bug!


 Don't be daft. My audio works perfectly. So does lots of other people's.
 
 If yours doesn't, file a bug.

-- 

Salvo Tomaselli

Io non mi sento obbligato a credere che lo stesso Dio che ci ha dotato di
senso, ragione ed intelletto intendesse che noi ne facessimo a meno.
-- Galileo Galilei

http://ltworf.github.io/ltworf/


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Re: Bug#727708: Fsck SystemD and its developers and its users. GR to override this please.

On Tue, Feb 11, 2014 at 06:06:39PM +0400, Oleg wrote:
 On Tue, Feb 11, 2014 at 10:27:04AM +0100, John Paul Adrian Glaubitz wrote:
  It's not *my* choice, systemd is the choice of the majority of the
  Linux community. OpenRC and upstart are used in Gentoo and Ubuntu
 
   What? I see many people who don't like systemd and won't use it. I don't
 see that systemd is the choice of the _majority_. But i see that systemd
 funs simply shout louder than others.

There are various technical reasons to choose systemd. Various
developers have chosen for this. It is not something you can gloss over
like e.g. the colour of a bikeshed. There are technical reasons behind
why projects are relying on the additional value it provides.

It's quite sad to be summarized as someone who simply shouts louder. :-(

Shouting is not how logind (optional) dependency was decided upon!

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Re: Bug#727708: Fsck SystemD and its developers and its users. GR to override this please.

2014-02-11 Thread Josselin Mouette

Le mardi 11 février 2014 à 18:30 +0400, vita...@yourcmc.ru a écrit : 
 And I don't see why a binary log format is needed to implement the 
 stderr capture.

It is of course well-known that systemd developers like to make their
life more complicated and love to implement binary formats instead of
writing simple text parsers, just for the sake of having fun programming
them, and absolutely not because they need things like indexing.

The same goes for relational databases developers, for example. How
silly of them all.

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: :' :
`. `'
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Re: Bug#727708: Fsck SystemD and its developers and its users. GR to override this please.



 On Feb 11, 2014, at 3:06 PM, Oleg lego12...@yandex.ru wrote:
 
  What? I see many people who don't like systemd and won't use it. I don't
 see that systemd is the choice of the _majority_. But i see that systemd
 funs simply shout louder than others.

systemd is used as the default init system in:

- Fedora
- Arch Linux
- Mageia
- openSUSE
- SLES (upcoming)
- RHEL7
- Frugalware
- (see Wikipedia)

Plus companies like Intel and BMW are using it in their embedded platforms.

The reason why you perceive the systemd opponents as being the majority than 
the supporters lies in the fact that the former are more vocal.

It's also usually comes from people who are running or affiliated with Gentoo 
or Ubuntu. The rest of the community already made up their minds.

What I don't get is why are those people trying to push Debian's decision when 
they are primarily using a different platform. But I guess it's pure politics 
and trying to push their own projects.

Adrian

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Re: Bug#727708: Fsck SystemD and its developers and its users. GR to override this please.

On Tue, 2014-02-11 at 15:47 +0100, John Paul Adrian Glaubitz wrote:

 What I don't get is why are those people trying to push Debian's
 decision when they are primarily using a different platform. But I
 guess it's pure politics and trying to push their own projects.

I'm pretty sure there are _many_ Debian users and developers among the
people not being happy with the way things are heading :-( Make your
voices heard!



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Re: Bug#727708: Fsck SystemD and its developers and its users. GR to override this please.

On Tue, Feb 11, 2014 at 09:05:48AM -0500, The Wanderer wrote:
 I think this touches on - or possibly misses - a key point.

I don't think so.

 I do not trust the systemd project to not do things I consider bad or
 even insane, because they've already done such things, and they show no
 regret or repentance over having done so.

You're talking about yourself and none of what you say contains
specifics. What bad and insane things have systemd done? It seems to be
that you're ignoring that they attend almost every conference out there,
discuss everything up front and hold loads and loads of presentations
where they specifically ask for feedback.

Saying I do not trust: I think you have a level of expectation for
systemd that is at a completely different level than any other project.

 I've seen the same thing with the Mozilla project.
 
 I've seen the same thing with Microsoft.
 
 I believe all of those groups are acting in good faith, working towards
 what they see as good goals, with good intentions, and I trust them to
 continue to do that; based on the evidence of history, I no longer trust
 that the result of that work will be - or, if it once is, will continue
 to be - something *I* would consider good.

You are not specific. Systemd is GPL. You can fork it, you can change
it, there is no CLA.

What do you mean?!? There are no specifics at all in most of the
objections. Only a bunch of I don't like it, while if you look at it
objectively, it seems that the bar is different for systemd than it is
for something such as coreutils.

 As such, advice to not be distrustful seems to me to be lacking an
 essential foundation.

You're turning things around. I'm being specific and giving examples.
Your answer is: but I don't trust them. Ok, whatever, I concluded that
already.
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Olav


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Re: Bug#727708: Fsck SystemD and its developers and its users. GR to override this please.

On Tue, Feb 11, 2014 at 03:51:33PM +0100, Salvo Tomaselli wrote:
 Well if a bug can be solved by killing the buggy process and getting better 
 functionality than when the process is running is certainly a very very bad 
 bug!

As mentioned before: File a bug.

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Re: Bug#727708: Fsck SystemD and its developers and its users. GR to override this please.

On Tue, Feb 11, 2014 at 06:30:24PM +0400, vita...@yourcmc.ru wrote:
 Because I want logs to be plaintext in my system, not binary.

Install syslog. Or maybe Debian will use both journal and syslog.

 And I don't see why a binary log format is needed to implement the
 stderr capture.

Try to find an efficient way to show the output of a particular daemon.
Now of a cgroup. Now anything of a user. It's not about capturing, it is
about doing something useful with it. You want to capture various
properties with each message.

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Re: Bug#727708: Fsck SystemD and its developers and its users. GR to override this please.

On 02/11/2014 04:31 PM, Clint Byrum wrote:
 One point of moving to a system like upstart or systemd is that the
 sysvinit scripts do not run as scripts. They are little tiny declarative
 files that run all or most in C. This speeds up boot, but only makes
 sense if all of the early stage boot things make use of it.
 
 Leaving most things to just use the sysvinit compatibility layer means
 not realizing one of the more important benefits of the default init
 system if it should in fact turn out to be systemd.

I agree with the above.

 So at best you're talking about maintaining two for every daemon. That
 is still roughly twice the maintenance work and twice the testing.

Yes, that's my proposal, and as well deprecate sysv-rc in the favor of
OpenRC, and allow OpenRC runscript files *only* if there's support for
the default init system (because this way the default init system will
not use them, so the runscript format is possible). Yes, testing and
maintenance will be double the amount of work, which is why I wrote that
it will all depend on contributions. I didn't write support for it would
be mandatory, but on best effort basis, which I think is fair. Also,
that will enable support for our non-linux ports.

 Not saying I like it, but that is where choice hurts Debian. Perhaps
 having the choice will also help Debian enough to make it worthwhile.

That's what I believe, yes.

On 02/11/2014 05:03 PM, Andrei POPESCU wrote:
 According to Russ Allbery, it's easier to maintain both systemd and
 upstart declarations than one sysv init script.

s/sysv init/sysv-rc/ --- Please don't do this mistake, it's really
sysv-rc that uses the init scripts, and OpenRC, which has a declarative
format, still uses sysvinit.

Anyway, to some degree, I agree with Russ here, which is why I think we
should replace sysv-rc by OpenRC completely at some point (which is when
we have stabilized support for *all* arch, which isn't the case right
now, latest Hurd patches broke support for kFreeBSD).

On 02/11/2014 05:31 PM, John Paul Adrian Glaubitz wrote:
 On 02/11/2014 09:02 AM, Thomas Goirand wrote:
 The situation with upstart or systemd, if not chosen as default,
 will be quite different, since not all packages are supporting them
 directly right now. One of these 2 will suffer from the choice of
 default init system.

 What? That's not true. As people have explained here before - even
 directly to you - both Upstart and systemd have perfect backwards
 compatibility with sysvinit scripts.

You missed one very important word: *directly*. Probably I should have
write *natively*. Sorry for this.

On 02/11/2014 05:27 PM, John Paul Adrian Glaubitz wrote:
 No, it's absolutely not. You can have the choice for the interior
 design, the paint job, the radio, the type of engine and comfort
 features, but you certainly cannot have the choice on internal
 parts like the ignition system or starter motor.

 Furthermore, if you do decide to replace these parts on your own,
 you will end up losing your car manufacturer's warranty.

The car analogy can only go so far... My point was saying that people do
customize things, and do it. That's a way more the case with computers
than with cars.

On 02/11/2014 05:27 PM, John Paul Adrian Glaubitz wrote:
 And since there are virtually no volunteers for OpenRC besides
 you and the other two OpenRC maintainers, Roger and Benda, it
 will be unsupported at some point when you guys step down.

That's truth for every bit of Debian, however, package gets orphaned,
adopted, etc. Please don't through this type of argument, especially
when we have co-maintainers already.

On 02/11/2014 05:27 PM, John Paul Adrian Glaubitz wrote:
 I have seen you asking for help on OpenRC so many times during
 these discussion, but I am yet to see people raise their hands
 and say Yes Thomas, I am going to help you!

Yet, it happened. Not in this list though...

On 02/11/2014 05:27 PM, John Paul Adrian Glaubitz wrote:
 All I read are statements from you like Yes, it would work
 in general if we had someone to implement it, I don't have
 the time right now unfortunately.

Please read the debian/changelog of OpenRC in Experimental, and measure
the work that has been done so far. I don't think this counts for
nothing, and I really see progress. Hurd  kFreeBSD support, and
lsb2rcconf comes to mind. Plus this doesn't include all what has been
done before the package entered Debian.

 It's not *my* choice, systemd is the choice of the majority of the
 Linux community. OpenRC and upstart are used in Gentoo and Ubuntu
 only (ChromeOS doesn't really count in that context, it's a more
 or less closed system by Google), while virtually every other
 of the large distributions has adopted systemd.

 Using something which is not widely adopted and has very few
 supporters in the development community means that if any of the
 OpenRC or Upstart people will decide to retire, these systems will
 lose much more development manpower than systemd does.

Re: Bug#727708: Fsck SystemD and its developers and its users. GR to override this please.


It is of course well-known that systemd developers like to make their
life more complicated and love to implement binary formats instead of
writing simple text parsers, just for the sake of having fun 
programming

them, and absolutely not because they need things like indexing.

The same goes for relational databases developers, for example. How
silly of them all.


1) If you really need a binary index, it could be initially put in a 
separate file.
2) Binary index isn't needed at all if you just want to print output of 
a service - you can just put output of each unit to its own log file and 
just tail it.
3) If you don't want to print only last X lines, but want to print full 
output of a service since last start - you can remember the previous log 
position in the service state structure.
4) At a first glance I don't see any _real_ index (i.e. btree) 
implementation in systemd journal, so I assume it still does fullscans 
to print logs for a service - am I correct?
5) After all, I don't see why writing 1 regexp is a hard task. And it 
won't be really slower because of (4).


DBMS is an incorrect example because DBMS is originally _meant_ to store 
and query structured data in different formats.


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  Vitaliy Filippov


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Re: Bug#727708: Fsck SystemD and its developers and its users. GR to override this please.

On 02/11/2014 07:23 PM, Olav Vitters wrote:
 IMO (and I'm an interested part / GNOME dude, so no say): blocking
 progress is bad. So if someone wants to add OpenRC scripts to packages
 and maintenance is low: as packager you should be allowing that to
 happen. As long as the time required on packagers part is minimal. Only
 by not blocking progress things can move to working nicely. But that
 also means that it really falls under the task of people interested in
 something different to make such change happen. At the moment there is
 too much blocking progress going on IMO

Yes, I agree with what's above.

On 02/11/2014 08:13 PM, John Paul Adrian Glaubitz wrote:
 Yes, but we are not talking about hypothetical things. I am also not
 planning my life for the case that I am winning the lottery tomorrow.

Chances to win the lottery are 1 against 14 000 000 (at least in my
country). Claiming this kind of odds for supporting OpenRC is IMO an
overstatement, especially considering that we have LSB header scripts
for *all* of our packages right now.

Cheers,

Thomas


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Re: Bug#727708: Fsck SystemD and its developers and its users. GR to override this please.


Because I want logs to be plaintext in my system, not binary.


Install syslog. Or maybe Debian will use both journal and syslog.


I dislike the idea of binary logs so much that I want to really and 
totally disable journal.



And I don't see why a binary log format is needed to implement the
stderr capture.


Try to find an efficient way to show the output of a particular daemon.
Now of a cgroup. Now anything of a user. It's not about capturing, it 
is

about doing something useful with it. You want to capture various
properties with each message.


No problem: one regexp, one more regexp, one more regexp.

And if I _really_ needed a binary index, I would put it in a separate 
file.



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Re: Bug#727708: Fsck SystemD and its developers and its users. GR to override this please.

2014-02-11 Thread Clint Byrum

Excerpts from Josselin Mouette's message of 2014-02-11 07:00:43 -0800:
 Le mardi 11 février 2014 à 18:30 +0400, vita...@yourcmc.ru a écrit : 
  And I don't see why a binary log format is needed to implement the 
  stderr capture.
 
 It is of course well-known that systemd developers like to make their
 life more complicated and love to implement binary formats instead of
 writing simple text parsers, just for the sake of having fun programming
 them, and absolutely not because they need things like indexing.
 
 The same goes for relational databases developers, for example. How
 silly of them all.
 

And how silly of all other tool makers to create full text binary search
indexes from text logs, giving simplicity with efficiency at the same
time. The real heroes got rid of that scourge, the text logs.


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Re: Bug#727708: Fsck SystemD and its developers and its users. GR to override this please.

On Tue, Feb 11, 2014 at 07:57:18PM +0400, vita...@yourcmc.ru wrote:
 2) Binary index isn't needed at all if you just want to print output
 of a service - you can just put output of each unit to its own log
 file and just tail it.

Now show everything of a particular user. Systemd allows you to do this
quickly (barring some performance bugs).

 3) If you don't want to print only last X lines, but want to print
 full output of a service since last start - you can remember the
 previous log position in the service state structure.

Then you also need to handle logrotate. 

 4) At a first glance I don't see any _real_ index (i.e. btree)
 implementation in systemd journal, so I assume it still does
 fullscans to print logs for a service - am I correct?

You're not.

 5) After all, I don't see why writing 1 regexp is a hard task. And
 it won't be really slower because of (4).

A regexp is unreliable and slow. Lots of ssh blocking tools have had
various security issues due to this.

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Re: Bug#727708: Fsck SystemD and its developers and its users. GR to override this please.

2014-02-11 Thread Matthias Klumpp

2014-02-11 17:03 GMT+01:00  vita...@yourcmc.ru:
[...]
 And if I _really_ needed a binary index, I would put it in a separate file.
Guess what journald is doing ;-) And if the journal is not running in
persistent mode, this extra logfile only exists temporarily and
everything is forwarded to rsyslog, so you gat your syslog-textfile
(but with much more structured content)
First try the software, then complain. Complaining about something you
never tried and/or don't know about doesn't make any sense.
Cheers,
Matthias

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I welcome VSRE emails. See http://vsre.info/


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Re: Bug#727708: Fsck SystemD and its developers and its users. GR to override this please.