Re: printing QR-codes on labels with 300dpi label printers with LaTeX

[hw]

On Wed, 2024-03-13 at 03:50 +0800, jeremy ardley wrote:
> On 12/3/24 21:21, hw wrote:
> > 
> > Even if they did that, it would be totally useless because it won't be
> > able to automatically print labels from databases.
> 
> The manufacturer applications  usually allow you to print a list from a 
> spreadsheet or text file.

That isn't very useful.

> > > It is possible to use document generation tools like latex and printing
> > > systems like CUPS to print a label, but pixel registration will be poor.
> > Why?  The manufacturer provided a CPUS printer driver without which
> > printing wouldn't be possible at all.
> 
> Most custom barcodes programs run on windows and don't use CUPS.

That makes them entirely useless.

> Manufacturers can provide CUPS drivers as well, but the barcode 
> application is usually only windows.
> 
> In my case I had to write my own CUPS driver as the manufacturer does 
> not provide one.

How did you do that?

> Getting back to pixel registration, the latex CUPS route is very 
> unlikely to work well.

It's working great here since years.  Barcodes are no problem, only qr
codes can't be scanned.



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Re: printing QR-codes on labels with 300dpi label printers with LaTeX

[hw]

On Mon, 2024-03-11 at 23:45 +0700, Max Nikulin wrote:
> On 11/03/2024 08:06, hw wrote:
> > On Sun, 2024-03-10 at 09:50 +0700, Max Nikulin wrote:
> > > On 10/03/2024 04:41, hw wrote:
> > > > \psbarcode{textblah foo}{height=0.6 width=0.6 eclevel=L}{qrcode}
> > > > 
> > > > That works for 600dpi laser printers.  When you print the QR-code with
> > > > a 300dpi label printer you can't reliably scan it, not even when you
> > > > make the QR-code 1x1" in size.
> > > > 
> > > > Perhaps that's not a reasonable size?
> > > 
> > > Perhaps height and width are chosen improperly. An image some percents
> > > smaller may be sharper.
> > 
> > What size do you consider reasonable?
> 
> It seems you expect some number that you can use for any QR code. There 
> is no size that fits for all codes.

It's because you said: "I believed that 300dpi is high enough
resolution for QR-codes of reasonable size if source image has proper
quality." that I keep asking what you consider a reasonable size.

> Out of curiosity I tried to scan a QR code printed on a thermal printer 
> (so likely having ~200dpi resolution) having size of approximately 0.8in 
> and 50 pixels (modules) per inch. It encodes a 69 bytes long link. 
> Likely the same code scaled to 0.4in will still work, but I would prefer 
> to avoid it, 0.6in should be more reliable. On your 300dpi printer this 
> particular QR code may be printed e.g. at ~(0.8/1.5)in.

Did you successfully scan it?

> > [...]
> > The QR-code must fit on the label, plus some text.  The labels are
> > 50x35mm in size.
> 
> It limits amount of information you may put into QR codes. You can still 
> choose to use e.g. 4,5,6, etc. printer dots per QR code module.

How can I choose that?  I don't know that there would be an option
with pdflatex or pdf or the printer driver that would let me choose
how many dots per module the printer puts onto the label.

> > When I zoom in on QR-codes in a PDF viewer, they don't get blurry.
> > Perhaps the pst-barcode package uses vector graphics?
> 
> Nice, however you have to adjust size to avoid blurring.

How do you mean?  I thought vector graphics don't blur when scaled.



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Re: printing QR-codes on labels with 300dpi label printers with LaTeX

[hw]

On Mon, 2024-03-11 at 11:58 +0100, Florent Rougon wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> I haven't read the whole thread (sorry) but thought this might help.
> 
> hw  wrote:
> 
> > When I zoom in on QR-codes in a PDF viewer, they don't get blurry.
> > Perhaps the pst-barcode package uses vector graphics?
> 
> That is quite likely: the pst- prefix means this is PSTricks, which is
> an oldish way of doing vector graphics with LaTeX. I tend to avoid
> PSTricks these days as it is generally awkward to use in PDF contexts,
> although there are various workarounds that often allow to do so.

Is that bad?  It works great for what I'm doing.

> The ubiquitous, powerful and modern way to do vector graphics in LaTeX
> is PGF/TiKZ[1],

That package has almost 1300 pages of documentation which doesn't seem
to mention qr-codes or barcodes.

> however this is not even necessary for QR codes, because
> [...]

good :)

> I've played with a different package for producing QR codes in LaTeX,
> which uses the aforementioned \hrule and \vrule primitives: qrcode. Its
> manual is here (follow the “Package documentation” link):
> 
>   https://ctan.org/pkg/qrcode

I wonder why it uses different options for URLs and other data.  What
difference does that make?

> Here is a simple example you can compile with pdflatex:
> 
> \documentclass{article}
> \usepackage{qrcode}
> 
> \pagestyle{empty}
> 
> \begin{document}
> 
> \noindent
> % \qrset affects \qrcode commands in the current group. You can use it
> % to factor out options used for several QR codes.
> \qrset{nolinks, padding}% add padding to make sure the codes are 
> “legal”/readable
> \qrcode[version=1]{Hey Debian-user!}% Can't do version=1 with level=M or more
> \qrcode[level=L, version=1]{Hey Debian-user!}% Less redundancy but is doable
> 
> \end{document}
> 
> Note the terminal output:
> 
> 
> 
>  Version increased to '2' to fit text.>
> 
> 
>  calculated.>
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  calculated.>
> 

It might be worth a try for when I need to experiment with qr-codes on
small labels again.  It might not work because I may need to place the
qr-code in some way and it could conflict with other packages like the
labels package ...  I even might have already tried it; it's been a
few years and I don't remember exactly.

> [...]
> But with low printer resolution constraints, who knows?).
> 
> Hope this helps!

Yes, thanks, knowing about these packages can be useful.

Now I'm wondering why the qr-codes I printed with the label printer
couldn't be reliably scanned.  When I look at [1] and [2], for the
data I wanted to print (between 38 and 40 alphanumericals at L
quality) I would have to use a version 2 qr code, i. e. 25x25 modules.
I don't know how the modules transfer to dots, but assuming the
minimum of 4 dots per module, it would take 25 x 4 dots, i. e. 100
dots.  Each module would be 0.33mm in size which would require 25 x
0.33mm, i. e. 8.25mm for the size of the qr-code.

I printed the qr-code much larger than that, about 1x1".  That is
about three times as large as would be required, and the printer can
print three times as many dots per inch as the 100 dots needed.

So in theory, my theory that the resolution of the printer is too low
can't be true.

But why couldn't these qr-codes be scanned?  It shouldn't have been a
problem at all.


[1]: https://www.qrcode.com/en/about/version.html
[2]: https://www.qrcode.com/en/howto/cell.html

> 
> Regards
> 
> [1] https://ctan.org/pkg/pgf
> 





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Re: printing QR-codes on labels with 300dpi label printers with LaTeX

[hw]

On Mon, 2024-03-11 at 09:57 +0800, jeremy ardley wrote:
> On 11/3/24 07:34, hw wrote:
> > Do you think that thermal transfer printers with 203dpi would be
> > better suited to print QR codes than the 300dpi multi-mode printers?
> > 
> > I'm not fond of thermal transfer at all.  Usually what is being
> > printed that way fades rather quickly over time and is more slightly
> > gray rather than black and so thin that it's hard to read even when
> > freshly printed.  Perhaps better labels are available, but the labels
> > must not get too expensive ...
> 
> 
> Thermal transfer and thermal direct printers have the same resolution.
> 
> Thermal transfer printers are used for archival labels as they fade very 
> little over time.
> 
> Direct thermal printers are intended for mailing applications where it 
> doesn't matter if they fade after a few months.
> 
> Given that, I think a lot of commercial shippers use thermal transfer 
> for mailing labels. Very few shippers use laser printed adhesive address 
> label, nor non-adhesive in pockets or pouches.
> 
> To print a QR code or other 2D code on any thermal printer, the printer 
> manufacturer will supply an application that generate the codes and 
> prints them independently of the host printing system. These codes will 
> scan perfectly.

Even if they did that, it would be totally useless because it won't be
able to automatically print labels from databases.

> It is possible to use document generation tools like latex and printing 
> systems like CUPS to print a label, but pixel registration will be poor. 

Why?  The manufacturer provided a CPUS printer driver without which
printing wouldn't be possible at all.

> The only practical option for this route is to print the code BIG
 
That's what I thought, but then the codes won't fit on the labels.
That's why I wonder if there's a better way.



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Re: printing QR-codes on labels with 300dpi label printers with LaTeX

[hw]

On Sun, 2024-03-10 at 09:50 +0700, Max Nikulin wrote:
> On 10/03/2024 04:41, hw wrote:
> > \psbarcode{textblah foo}{height=0.6 width=0.6 eclevel=L}{qrcode}
> > 
> > That works for 600dpi laser printers.  When you print the QR-code with
> > a 300dpi label printer you can't reliably scan it, not even when you
> > make the QR-code 1x1" in size.
> > 
> > Perhaps that's not a reasonable size?
> 
> Perhaps height and width are chosen improperly. An image some percents 
> smaller may be sharper.

What size do you consider reasonable?

> - Find the dpi value in the specs of your printer

300dpi

> - Find number of pixels in QR code in QR specs (or just calculate them)

Calculate them how or find them where?  Pdflatex somehow does it and
the QR-codes are fine when printed on a laser printer and when shown
on a 4k display.

> - Specify width and height so that the ration of 2 numbers above is a 
> whole number.
> 
> Image may become a bit larger or a bit smaller.

The QR-code must fit on the label, plus some text.  The labels are
50x35mm in size.

That limits the QR-code to about 1x1", give or take a few mm.  1" is
already half the width of the label which doesn't leave much room for
text, and you have to give it some slack because you want to end up
printing somewhere on the label and not on the gaps between the
labels.

When I zoom in on QR-codes in a PDF viewer, they don't get blurry.
Perhaps the pst-barcode package uses vector graphics?

'pdfimages -list' doesn't show any images for a PDF with QR-codes
created with pdflatex.



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Re: printing QR-codes on labels with 300dpi label printers with LaTeX

[hw]

On Sun, 2024-03-10 at 07:56 +0800, jeremy ardley wrote:
> On 10/3/24 05:41, hw wrote:
> > The QR-codes are sharp and easily scanable when printed in 600dpi.
> > With the label printer you can't really tell if they're sharp or not.
> 
> As  mentioned in my previous post, thermal label printers are 203dpi, 
> *not the 300 that the OP quoted.*

The printers I've been printing on are 300dpi and can do both thermal
and ribbon/ink.  I haven't tried thermal.

> [...]
> The data_matrix code (like a QRcode) for the same 41 digits is a 26x26 matrix 
> which at 203dpi can have pixels of 8x8 dots in a field of 26x26mm. These are 
> super easy for a thermal printer

Do you think that thermal transfer printers with 203dpi would be
better suited to print QR codes than the 300dpi multi-mode printers?

I'm not fond of thermal transfer at all.  Usually what is being
printed that way fades rather quickly over time and is more slightly
gray rather than black and so thin that it's hard to read even when
freshly printed.  Perhaps better labels are available, but the labels
must not get too expensive ...



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Re: printing QR-codes on labels with 300dpi label printers with LaTeX

[hw]

On Sun, 2024-03-10 at 10:21 +0700, Max Nikulin wrote:
> On 10/03/2024 03:48, jeremy ardley wrote:
> > 
> > Standard thermal label printers are 203DPI (8 dots per mm).
> 
> Thanks, this number suits better to my expectation. I just trusted hw 
> earlier.

I should clarify:

The printer the OP pointed to seems to be rated at 203DPI and I
somehow thought it had 300dpi.  (203 seems very odd.)

The printers I have been trying to print QR-codes on are actually
300dpi printers.  They can do both thermal transfer or use a ribbon
that transfers ink to the labels kinda like typewriters did.  I
haven't used the thermal transfer mode and only the ribbon/ink mode.

> > I have asked the postal service to generate labels at 203dpi which will 
> > print just fine at 600 dpi and so work with laser and thermal printers, 
> > but they will not cooperate.

Why would they create labels that can not be scanned when printed?

Maybe ask them to print the labels for you?  If they can't scan them
then that's their problem.



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Re: printing QR-codes on labels with 300dpi label printers with LaTeX

[hw]

On Sat, 2024-03-09 at 23:20 +0700, Max Nikulin wrote:
> On 09/03/2024 19:08, hw wrote:
> > On Fri, 2024-03-08 at 23:21 +0700, Max Nikulin wrote:
> > > On 08/03/2024 12:35, hw wrote:
> > > > On Thu, 2024-03-07 at 23:15 -0500, Jeffrey Walton wrote:
> > > > > 
> > > > > I have a USB thermal printer for the shipping labels,
> > > > > <https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B08V28J3JS>.
> > > > 
> > > > This printer has only 300dpi.  If you print QR-codes on it make sure
> > > > you can scan them: they have to be large enough or get you an
> > > > unscanable smear.
> > > 
> > > I believed that 300dpi is high enough resolution for QR-codes of
> > > reasonable size if source image has proper quality. On the other hand,
> > > if possible, it is better to scale QR-codes to match some whole factor
> > > of printer pixel size.
> > 
> > What do you consider a 'reasonable size'?
> 
> Looking at a QR code likely having ~75 pixels per inch I find it 
> unreasonably small for delivery labels.

Shipping labels tend to be pretty large.

> I am in doubts if its redundancy is high enough to reliably
> recognize it if it would be scratched during delivery. Another

Increased redundancy can make the QR-code harder or impossible to
scan because it creates more smear instead of more redundancy.

Once you've seen what that looks like, it is evident that smearing
more ink into the same area for more redundancy makes things only
worse.  You'd have to print the QR-code larger.

> limitation may be stability of optics in scanners in respect to
> labels. This one is printed using a laser printer with resolution at
> least 600 dpi. Each QR code pixel has still 4x4 printer dots in the
> case of 300dpi, so when image is properly aligned, printer quality
> is not an issue.

Yes, the QR-codes printed on a 600dpi laser printer are fine.

> > There is no source image other than whatever LaTeX creates.  I can
> > specify the size of the QR-code.  Other than that, how do you apply
> > scaling?
> 
> I am unsure what particular QR code generator do you use and what is the 

I'm using the pst-barcode package and pdflatex to create a PDF file
which is then sent through cups to the printer.  So LaTeX, the
bst-barcode package, some PDF stuff, the printer driver, the printer
and it's settings for darkness and printing speed, the material the
labels are made of and the ribbon with the ink on it which gets
transferred to the label all influence the result.

Also, labels are continuously being fed through the printer while
printing without stopping.  That makes some smear inevitable.

> format of QR codes.

It basically goes like this:

\psbarcode{textblah foo}{height=0.6 width=0.6 eclevel=L}{qrcode}

That works for 600dpi laser printers.  When you print the QR-code with
a 300dpi label printer you can't reliably scan it, not even when you
make the QR-code 1x1" in size.

Perhaps that's not a reasonable size?

> Is it raster or vector image? Specify size that makes QR code pixels
> having whole number of printer pixels.

I only know that the QR-code must fit on the label.

> "Fit to page" or "fit to printable area" in printer options may make an 
> image blurry.

No such options are specified.

> In the case of low input image resolution, upscaling method suitable
> for photos may make QR code blurry. However consistent configuration
> should make QR codes sharp.

IIRC there is an option to create a PDF having a particular
resolution, like 300DPI, but that didn't seem to have any effect.  I
don't remember what that option was :/

The QR-codes are sharp and easily scanable when printed in 600dpi.
With the label printer you can't really tell if they're sharp or not.




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Re: very poor nfs performance

[hw]

On Thu, 2024-03-07 at 10:13 +0100, Stefan K wrote:
> Hello guys,
> 
> I hope someone can help me with my problem.
> Our NFS performance ist very bad, like ~20MB/s, mountoption looks like that:

Reading or writing, or both?

Try testing with files on a different volume.

> rw,relatime,sync,vers=4.2,rsize=1048576,wsize=1048576,namlen=255,hard,proto=tcp,timeo=600,retrans=2,sec=sys,local_lock=none

try IPv6

> [...]
> Only one nfs client(debian 12) is connected via 10G,

try a good 1GB network card

> since we host also database files on the nfs share,

bad idea

> 'sync'-mountoption is important (more or less), but it should still
> be much faster than 20MB/s

I wouldn't dare to go without sync other than for making backups
maybe.  Without sync, you probably need to test with a larger file.

> so can somebody tell me whats wrong or what should I change to speed
> that up?

Guesswork:

NFS can be hard on network card drivers
IPv6 may be faster than IPv4
the network cable might suck
the switch might suck or block stuff
ZFS might suck in combination with NFS
network cards might happen to be in disadvantageous slots
network cards can get too hot
try Fedora instead of Debian (boot a live system on the server,
configure NFS and see what happens when serving files from BTRFS)
do you see any unusual system load while transferring files?
do you need to run more NFS processes (increase their limit)
are you running irqbalance?
are you running numad if you're on a numa machine?
what CPU governors are you using?
do the i/o schedulers interfere?



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printing QR-codes on labels with 300dpi label printers with LaTeX (was: libbusiness-us-usps-webtools-perl and USPS Ground Advantage shipping)

[hw]

On Fri, 2024-03-08 at 23:21 +0700, Max Nikulin wrote:
> On 08/03/2024 12:35, hw wrote:
> > On Thu, 2024-03-07 at 23:15 -0500, Jeffrey Walton wrote:
> > > 
> > > I have a USB thermal printer for the shipping labels,
> > > <https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B08V28J3JS>.
> > 
> > This printer has only 300dpi.  If you print QR-codes on it make sure
> > you can scan them: they have to be large enough or get you an
> > unscanable smear.
> 
> I believed that 300dpi is high enough resolution for QR-codes of 
> reasonable size if source image has proper quality. On the other hand, 
> if possible, it is better to scale QR-codes to match some whole factor 
> of printer pixel size.

What do you consider a 'reasonable size'?  The maximum possible size
of the QR-code is limited by the size of the label.  (Shipping labels
are probably big enough ...)

There is no source image other than whatever LaTeX creates.  I can
specify the size of the QR-code.  Other than that, how do you apply
scaling?




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Re: libbusiness-us-usps-webtools-perl and USPS Ground Advantage shipping

[hw]

On Thu, 2024-03-07 at 23:15 -0500, Jeffrey Walton wrote:
> Hi Everyone,
> 
> I need to generate some shipping labels for drop-off at the USPS post
> office using USPS Ground Advantage.
> 
> I have a USB thermal printer for the shipping labels,
> .
> 
> I see Debian carries libbusiness-us-usps-webtools-perl. I visited the
> module's GitHub at
> , but the
> examples are on the lite side. I don't see a workflow similar to
> creating and printing a shipping label.
> 
> My question is, can I use the module to create and print a shipping
> label for a USPS Ground Advantage package?

When you look at the documentation at
https://metacpan.org/pod/Business::US::USPS::WebTools it looks as if
this doesn't do any printing.  The most recent commit seems to be 3
years old and I doubt that this library is still useful since the web
services it uses have probably changed in the meantime.

If you can print on the printer and want to automate printing labels,
you could use LaTeX.  Other options like scribus and libreoffice don't
run headless (unless scribus has changed).  However, I don't know what
these labels look like.

This printer has only 300dpi.  If you print QR-codes on it make sure
you can scan them: they have to be large enough or get you an
unscanable smear.



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Re: Serious problem with debian 12 bookworm

[hw]

On Thu, 2024-02-29 at 19:58 +, Anastasia Broch wrote:
> Hi I'm using debian 12 in Lenovo yoga legion core i5 12th gen with
> RTX 3050 and I'm figuring a serious issue using debian 12 on this
> PC,  When the PC is on sleep mode ( suspend ) it's doesn't wake up
> anymore until forcing shutting down and this each time the PC turns
> on suspend mode, ( fastboot are disabled )of course, on my old PC
> dell i7 10th I never had this kind of issue, but this it it's the
> case, please help to resolve this problem I really don't want to
> back to windows anymore. Thank you so much 

How do you do try to wake it up?  Could you be pressing the wrong
button?

Does suspend to disk work?

> Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone

Please disable the SPAM addon.

Re: medically smart watches

[hw]

Well, I was merely hoping that someone might finally have come up with
a working solution ...


On Mon, 2024-02-26 at 13:07 +, Andy Smith wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> On Mon, Feb 26, 2024 at 12:24:34PM +0100, hw wrote:
> > How does the watch you got measure blood sugar?  Doesn't that require
> > a blood sample?
> 
> Some of them claim to extrapolate it from sweat, others claim to be
> able to estimate it from shining near-infrared at the blood vessels
> that are near the surface. Neither method has yet proven to be
> accurate, which is why they aren't certified as a medical device in
> UK.
> 
> You can learn all about it by searching "non-invasive blood glucose
> monitoring"
> 
> Thanks,
> Andy
> 

Re: medically smart watches

[hw]

On Mon, 2024-02-26 at 09:48 -0500, gene heskett wrote:
> On 2/26/24 06:25, hw wrote:
> > On Sat, 2024-02-24 at 10:03 -0500, gene heskett wrote:
> > > [...]
> > > bluetooth, and It looks as if I have to buy a BT adaptor, so advise on
> > > that front would be most welcome also.
> > > [...]
> > 
> > If you're locking for a bluetooth USB adapter: I have a 'Bluetooth
> > 5.0' adapter from TP-Link which works with Fedora.  I've been able to
> > use it with a headset and an xbox controller.  A smartphone and an IP
> > phone also show up as devices, but I haven't tried to use them via
> > bluetooth.
> > 
> I have only one enabled radio, in a 3d printer, lists all the neighbors 
> wifi routers it scans for and I assume the neighbors can hear it, but 
> this things login id does not appear in its scan. Maybe its duff, IDK.

Well, the IP phone is neat because you can pair a smartphone and use
it to call contacts on your smartphone and talk through it instead of
the smartphone.  Smartphones aren't even useful for making phone calls
because their sound quality is too bad for that, not to mention the
endless latency that makes every call impossible.  It's not surprising
that you can't really hear anything with the speaker(s) and
microphone(s) in smartphones being so tiny.

> >  [...]
> > How does the watch you got measure blood sugar?  Doesn't that require
> > a blood sample?
> > 
> That is what the FDA is pushing. This shines a uv led, and claims to be 
> able to measure by the color of the blood going by.  But w/o a bt 
> connection to the net, it can't even tell the time, its about a month 
> out of whack.

Pushing?  It would sure be nice to have some sufficiently reliable
device for measuring blood sugar that doesn't require test strips and
doesn't need to be implanted or otherwise has to constantly remain
attached your body.  It's always a nightmare to get test strips, and
you never get enough of them.

Even if someone is trying to push the research and development, better
don't hold your breath.  Manufacturers are making way too much money
with the test strips to go for anything else unless they can make more
money with that than with the strips.

Re: medically smart watches

[hw]

On Mon, 2024-02-26 at 13:21 +0100, Hans wrote:
> [...]
> However, on my mobile a pairing password or number is not needed and for 
> pairing the special app is also not needed on the mobile.
> 
> This let me conclude, some other thing I must have missed.
> 
> For testing purposes I used kde in-built blue-tooth-manager and as well the 
> app "blueman" from Gnome. I had the feeling, blueman is working more stable 
> and smoother than the kde-built-in one.
> 
> If someone knows, how to pair these (maybe I have to take notice of some 
> things), I will take a further look.

Some devices can not be paired.  Bluetooth sucks badly; it may or may
not work and it's always been like that.

Last time I bought something with bluetooth, it couldn't be paired and
I got a discount.  I don't need, nor want its bluetooth functionality
at all, and it's better that it doesn't work because it may make it
more difficult for potential attackers, so I got an even better deal
than it already was.

Re: medically smart watches

[hw]

On Sat, 2024-02-24 at 10:03 -0500, gene heskett wrote:
> [...]
> bluetooth, and It looks as if I have to buy a BT adaptor, so advise on 
> that front would be most welcome also.
> [...]

If you're locking for a bluetooth USB adapter: I have a 'Bluetooth
5.0' adapter from TP-Link which works with Fedora.  I've been able to
use it with a headset and an xbox controller.  A smartphone and an IP
phone also show up as devices, but I haven't tried to use them via
bluetooth.

However, a while ago I found that the xbox controller did have
connection issues in that the connection seemed to get interrupted, so
I went back to using an USB cable.  I'm pretty sure it's a software
problem because it worked fine at first.  I don't know if it's been
fixed since because my workstation only has 4 USB ports of which 3
are occupied and an USB cable extension is plugged into the 4th for
the xbox controller.

How does the watch you got measure blood sugar?  Doesn't that require
a blood sample?

Re: Re: Issue with USB External Keyboard, External Mouse, and Screen Brightness on Dell Laptop

[hw]

Is it possible that the USB ports do not supply power once the laptop
is running on battery?

Does the NumLock LED of the keyboard go out?


On Thu, 2024-02-22 at 13:49 -0300, Marcelo Laia wrote:
> Dear Debian Users,
> 
> Thank you all for the invaluable assistance provided. Unfortunately, the 
> issue has resurfaced today. I don't believe it's related to the age of the 
> hardware, although my Inspiron 5547-A20 is from 2014, as indicated below:
> 
> Inspiron 5547 01 OCT. 2014
> 
> Some hardware details:
> 
> - BIOS:
>- Vendor: Dell Inc.
>- Version: A13
>- Date: 05/27/2019
> - CPU:
>- Product: Intel(R) Core(TM) i7-4510U CPU @ 2.00GHz
> - Memory:
>- Size: 16GB
> 
> Today, the battery still had 66% charge when this strange problem occurred. 
> It's worth mentioning that in all these days, between my last post here on 
> the list and today, I always use the battery until it reaches between 20-10%, 
> at which point I plug in the charger and let it charge until it reaches 
> 95-100%.
> 
> I ran the following commands:
> 
> With the power cable plugged into the power grid, i.e., the battery is 
> charging:
> 
> :~$ sudo lsusb -t
> 
> /:  Bus 001.Port 001: Dev 001, Class=root_hub, Driver=ehci-pci/2p, 480M
>  |__ Port 001: Dev 002, If 0, Class=Hub, Driver=hub/8p, 480M
>  |__ Port 005: Dev 003, If 0, Class=Wireless, Driver=btusb, 12M
>  |__ Port 005: Dev 003, If 1, Class=Wireless, Driver=btusb, 12M
>  |__ Port 006: Dev 004, 12M
>  |__ Port 007: Dev 005, If 0, Class=Vendor Specific Class, 
> Driver=rtsx_usb, 480M
>  |__ Port 008: Dev 006, If 0, Class=Video, Driver=uvcvideo, 480M
>  |__ Port 008: Dev 006, If 1, Class=Video, Driver=uvcvideo, 480M
> /:  Bus 002.Port 001: Dev 001, Class=root_hub, Driver=xhci_hcd/9p, 480M
>  |__ Port 002: Dev 007, If 0, Class=Human Interface Device, 
> Driver=usbhid, 1.5M
> /:  Bus 003.Port 001: Dev 001, Class=root_hub, Driver=xhci_hcd/4p, 5000M
> :~$
> 
> :~$ ls /sys/bus/usb/drivers/usb/
> 1-1  1-1.5  1-1.6  1-1.7  1-1.8  2-2  bind  module  uevent  unbind  usb1  
> usb2  usb3
> :~$ 
> 
> After unplugging the power cable, i.e., the battery is discharging:
> 
> After a few seconds, the screen brightness is set to zero. The mouse remains 
> active, and I can use it for a few more seconds, when it also becomes 
> disabled. From then on, only the touchpad and internal keyboard are 
> functional.
> 
> :~$ sudo lsusb -t
> 
> /:  Bus 001.Port 001: Dev 001, Class=root_hub, Driver=ehci-pci/2p, 480M
>  |__ Port 001: Dev 002, If 0, Class=Hub, Driver=hub/8p, 480M
>  |__ Port 005: Dev 003, If 0, Class=Wireless, Driver=btusb, 12M
>  |__ Port 005: Dev 003, If 1, Class=Wireless, Driver=btusb, 12M
>  |__ Port 006: Dev 004, 12M
>  |__ Port 007: Dev 005, If 0, Class=Vendor Specific Class, 
> Driver=rtsx_usb, 480M
>  |__ Port 008: Dev 006, If 0, Class=Video, Driver=uvcvideo, 480M
>  |__ Port 008: Dev 006, If 1, Class=Video, Driver=uvcvideo, 480M
> /:  Bus 002.Port 001: Dev 001, Class=root_hub, Driver=xhci_hcd/9p, 480M
> /:  Bus 003.Port 001: Dev 001, Class=root_hub, Driver=xhci_hcd/4p, 5000M
> :~$ 
> 
> ~$ ls /sys/bus/usb/drivers/usb/
> 1-1  1-1.5  1-1.6  1-1.7  1-1.8  bind  module  uevent  unbind  usb1  usb2  
> usb3
> :~$ 
> 
> :~$ echo '2-2' | sudo tee /sys/bus/usb/drivers/usb/bind 
> 2-2
> tee: /sys/bus/usb/drivers/usb/bind: No device
> :~$ 
> 
> :~$ upower --dump
> Device: /org/freedesktop/UPower/devices/line_power_ACAD
>native-path:  ACAD
>power supply: yes
>updated:  qui 22 fev 2024 13:23:50 (182 seconds ago)
>has history:  no
>has statistics:   no
>line-power
>  warning-level:   none
>  online:  no
>  icon-name:  'ac-adapter-symbolic'
> 
> Device: /org/freedesktop/UPower/devices/battery_BAT1
>native-path:  BAT1
>vendor:   SANYO
>model:DELL WYT3M94Q
>serial:   0038
>power supply: yes
>updated:  qui 22 fev 2024 13:26:31 (21 seconds ago)
>has history:  yes
>has statistics:   yes
>battery
>  present: yes
>  rechargeable:yes
>  state:   discharging
>  warning-level:   none
>  energy:  23,9982 Wh
>  energy-empty:0 Wh
>  energy-full: 36,4857 Wh
>  energy-full-design:  59,94 Wh
>  energy-rate: 30,0588 W
>  voltage: 10,916 V
>  charge-cycles:   N/A
>  time to empty:   47,9 minutes
>  percentage:  65%
>  capacity:60,8704%
>  technology:  lithium-ion
>  icon-name:  'battery-full-symbolic'
>History (charge):
>  1708619191   65,000  discharging
>  1708619161   66,000  discharging
>  1708619101   67,000  discharging
>History (rate):
>  1708619101 

Re: How can we change the keyboard layout?

[hw]

On Wed, 2024-02-21 at 12:55 -0600, David Wright wrote:
> On Tue 13 Feb 2024 at 08:09:40 (+0100), hw wrote:
> > On Sun, 2024-02-11 at 10:35 -0600, David Wright wrote:
> > > On Wed 07 Feb 2024 at 06:58:39 (+0100), hw wrote:
> > > > [...]
> > I'd use multiple keyboards if I had to do that and just change between
> > keyboards.
> 
> Do it if you like. That's what I have on my computer in the basement:
> a GB-layout M keyboard and a US-layout Microsoft Pro.

And is their layout identical?  If isn't, do all the keys on both
keyboards what you expect them to do?

> In my case, the layout difference is incidental: the M sits on the
> table, the other sits on a shelf, for standing use. (There are two
> screens, set to mirroring.)
> 
> > > > > My 2014 keyboard appears to identify itself correctly as a K520. My
> > > > > old IBM M says it's an "AT Translated Set 2 keyboard", which seems
> > > > > reasonable for a keyboard dating from 1988.
> > > > 
> > > > I can see USB keyboards identifying themselves, but keyboards with
> > > > PS/2 or DIN connectors?  How does your keyboard from 1988 connect?
> > > 
> > > PS/2. IIRC it came with a genuine IBM PS/2 computer.
> > 
> > Where does it show up?  Where does the information originate from?
> > Perhaps the information is merely an assumption some of the involved
> > the software makes and not something the keyboard tells it.
> 
> I get it from xinput, which I assume gets it from udev, as the ID's
> description string occurs in /lib/udev/hwdb.d/60-keyboard.hwdb.

Does that mean it doesn't come form the keyboard itself?

> > > > 10% more keys isn't considerably more.  Can you show me a keyboard
> > > > with 122 keys that has all keys usable and unique rather than sending
> > > > key combinations instead?
> > > 
> > > That would be difficult:
> 
> I think some etiquette might be appropriate. You shouldn't quote half
> a sentence just to change the meaning to suit yourself. I wrote:

I have no intention of doing something like that.

>  "That would be difficult: I've never had a 122 key keyboard, or
>   even seen one. You have one. In terms of xev output, are there
>   duplicate keys?"
> 
> That difficulty has nothing to do with the one you wrote about here:
> 
> > That's what I've been saying :)  Years ago I read an article about
> > keyboards and it said that due to hardware restrictions, only so many
> > keys can be handled so that keyboards with 122 keys don't really work:
> > Either the controller in the keyboard key combinations, or the keys do
> > nothing.  Apparently such keyboards seem to come from terminals that
> > could use all the keys while PC hardware can not.
> 
> I've not heard of that. The keyboard files in the kernel source and in
> udev seem to have far more keys available than 122.

Perhaps what I have been reading wasn't true, or things have changed
and it is now possible to have more keys.  It was sufficiently long
ago for things to have been changed.

But then, how many manufacturers nowadays make keyboards with 122 keys
like these terminal keyboards for PCs?  The only one I know of is
Unicomp, and they have adjusted the keyboard controller to deliver
substitutes for keys PCs don't know (or usually don't have) in order
to make the keyobard usable for PCs.

Why would the kernel developers make provisions for keyboards that
don't exist (for PCs)?

> > > I've never had a 122 key keyboard, or even seen one. You have
> > > one. In terms of xev output, are there duplicate keys? Which ones,
> > > and how does xev identify them?
> > 
> > I don't know if there are duplicate keys.  I didn't try out all the
> > key to find any, and I haven't noticed any.
> 
> It can't take that long to press 122 keys in turn, can it.
> 
> > When I press F18, for example, wev says: [ … lengthy output snipped … ]
> 
> Does wl signify wayland output? I can't decode it. However, you appear
> to have your NumLock on, which could change things considerably.

You mean wev?  What are trying to decode?

I usually NumLock enabled; if it's ever turned off, it's usually only
by accidident.

> > For the backtab key it says:
> 
> Looking at 911QQZnUFrL.jpg, I don't know which key that is. But again,
> NumLock appears to be on.

It's the key to the left to the Delete key which is below the key
labeled Dup/Insert.

> > These keys don't exist on PCs, so the keyboards converts them.  IIRC,
> > Unicomp used to have a version that was suited for terminals like IBM
> > made them, i. e. with all 122 keys working and not converted.
> 
> That's odd—911QQZnU

Re: Combining Distro DVD's

[hw]

On Mon, 2024-02-12 at 13:41 -0500, Steve Matzura wrote:
> I thought it'd be a nice idea to combine any and all distribution media 
> for a release into a single medium--a USB drive, of course. I'd start by 
> creating my USB drive by extracting the first DVD to it, thereby 
> ensuring the boot block and boot material is where it should be. But 
> then what do I do with the additional media?
> [...]

Maybe put a copy of a Debian mirror onto another partition.

Re: How can we change the keyboard layout?

[hw]

On Sun, 2024-02-11 at 10:35 -0600, David Wright wrote:
> On Wed 07 Feb 2024 at 06:58:39 (+0100), hw wrote:
> > [...]
> > > It's also obvious that "change the keyboard layout" is ambiguous,
> > > and you didn't intend to mean switching between two layouts.
> > 
> > It's not at all obvious, and it's not really ambiguous.  Changing the
> > keyboard layout has always been about changing the keybaord layout and
> > never about switching between different keyboards or between different
> > layouts.  That only came up much later when such a feature was added
> > to some so-called desktop environments, and it's a very short sighted
> > feature since it omits a way of changing they keyboard layouts, which
> > is a far more important feature.
> 
> It seems quite important when you're used to typing in more than
> one language, and want your layout to match what you're used to.

Sure it is, and when you do that, it's even more important to be able
to change the layout because you have to do it for all the languages
you're used to typing in --- and for all the keyboards you're using.
I'd use multiple keyboards if I had to do that and just change between
keyboards.

I don't know if that's possible, but I expect it to be possible since
USB makes it easily possible to have multiple keyboards connected at
the same time.  So like in gnome settings, all the connected keyboards
need to show up so that I can pick a layout for each and then change
their layouts as I need them.  If that doesn't work it's a bug.

Actually, I just tried it and it doesn't work :(  The German keyboard
gets an US layout just like the US keyboard; it doesn't show up in
gnome settings, and there is no way to select a keyboard and to pick a
layout for it.  That really sucks --- I can only assume that
developers don't want to have to do anything with keyboard layouts,
which might explain why it has always been a nightmare to get a
keyboard to work right and still is.

> > > > [...]
> > > My 2014 keyboard appears to identify itself correctly as a K520. My
> > > old IBM M says it's an "AT Translated Set 2 keyboard", which seems
> > > reasonable for a keyboard dating from 1988.
> > 
> > I can see USB keyboards identifying themselves, but keyboards with
> > PS/2 or DIN connectors?  How does your keyboard from 1988 connect?
> 
> PS/2. IIRC it came with a genuine IBM PS/2 computer.

Where does it show up?  Where does the information originate from?
Perhaps the information is merely an assumption some of the involved
the software makes and not something the keyboard tells it.

> > > In 26 years, the number of keys has increased considerably, from 102
> > > to 107, plus six audiovisual buttons. Two of the extra keys are
> > > shifting ones (win and fn).
> > 
> > 10% more keys isn't considerably more.  Can you show me a keyboard
> > with 122 keys that has all keys usable and unique rather than sending
> > key combinations instead?
> 
> That would be difficult:

That's what I've been saying :)  Years ago I read an article about
keyboards and it said that due to hardware restrictions, only so many
keys can be handled so that keyboards with 122 keys don't really work:
Either the controller in the keyboard key combinations, or the keys do
nothing.  Apparently such keyboards seem to come from terminals that
could use all the keys while PC hardware can not.

About 20 years ago I've seen a machine with terminals running some HP
Unix that had keyboards like that.  They were networked through token
ring coax cables and had been used to run some CAD software which had
been replaced with, IIRC, autocad, but there were still files people
sometimes needed to retrieve from them, via NFS IIRC.  They were nice
keyboards and had connectors that wouldn't fit any PC.

> I've never had a 122 key keyboard, or even seen one. You have
> one. In terms of xev output, are there duplicate keys? Which ones,
> and how does xev identify them?

I don't know if there are duplicate keys.  I didn't try out all the
key to find any, and I haven't noticed any.

When I press F18, for example, wev says:

,
| [11:  wl_data_device] selection: id: 4278190081
| [13:  wl_pointer] motion: time: 665008611; x, y: 617.781250, 467.316406
| [13:  wl_pointer] frame
| [14: wl_keyboard] key: serial: 270273; time: 665012185; key: 50; state: 1 
(pressed)
|   sym: Shift_L  (65505), utf8: ''
| [14: wl_keyboard] modifiers: serial: 270274; group: 0
|   depressed: 0001: Shift 
|   latched: 
|   locked: 0010: Mod2 
| [14: wl_keyboard] key: serial: 270275; time: 665012185; key: 72; state: 1 
(pressed)
|   sym: F6   

Re: Home UPS recommendations

[hw]

On Sat, 2024-02-10 at 18:40 +, Joe wrote:
> On Sat, 10 Feb 2024 16:45:29 +0100
> hw  wrote:
> 
> 
> > 
> > The cheap APC models seem to produce a lot more heat, and their
> > batteries don't seem to last as long.  They work and they're not
> > really a good deal.  I don't have test equipment for UPCs, but you can
> > feel how warm they get and see how cheaply they're built without
> > special equipment.
> > 
> 
> It's quite surprising how many complaints about swollen UPS batteries
> there are around the Net. Given the fairly light duties of the batteries
> almost all of the time, this is pretty well certain to be caused by
> overheating due to incompetent charging. Batteries, particularly
> lead-acid types, are not exactly new technology, and the correct
> charging of them is well understood.
> 

The batteries in the cheap ones were not swollen.  They're just no fun
to replace.

Perhaps they use cheaper components that are less efficient and thus
create more heat.  That doesn't necessarily affect the batteries.

Re: -new HP AMD ryzen with realtec audio. The HP is mo1-F3xxx It has winblows 11 on it and I want it gone. It does have a 256GB SSD. Is there any thing i need to know before i try to install Bookworm

[hw]

https://fostips.com/6-ways-create-bootable-debian-ubuntu-usb-installer/


On Sat, 2024-02-10 at 21:48 +, Maureen Thomas wrote:
>  So can I please get some help.  I have a portable CD/DVD and I made a USB 
> with a ISO on it.  The computer does not have a cd/dvd burner but I have a 
> portable one.  Can some one tell me if there are any special things I need to 
> do to put Debian 12 on this machine.  I really hate windows and need to get 
> it gone.  Your help is always appreciated by this old lady.  Thank you in 
> advance>
> On Friday, February 9, 2024 at 08:10:24 PM EST, Maureen Thomas 
>  wrote:  
>  
>  
> ,, 1  

Re: Home UPS recommendations

[hw]

On Sat, 2024-02-10 at 08:57 -0500, Felix Miata wrote:
> hw composed on 2024-02-10 11:01 (UTC+0100):
> 
> > On Fri, 2024-02-09 at 22:28 -0500, Felix Miata wrote:
> 
> > > Those from the above URL are the same spec batteries used in many APC 
> > > models.
> 
> > Maybe, maybe not.  I couldn't get replacement batteries for the UPS
> > from HP not only because HP was so ridiculous as to tell me that I
> > could pay for a support ticket to get a price for the batteries, but
> > also because the replacement batteries I could get had smaller
> > contacts.
> 
> Contact size is part of an SLA battery's specs. Small contacts are
> terminal type "F1". I've never encountered a UPS that uses them. All
> I've encountered use terminal type "F2", which is 1/4" or about
> 6.35mm wide spade.

I don't remember how wide the contacts are the UPS from HP uses.
6.35mm is probably a common size, same as yellow connectors use.
There are connectors of the same type that are wider than that.

> > At least you have some cooling.  Basically nobody here has that,
> > though it's probably becoming more widespread because it gets warmer
> > all the time, and it's unbearable in the summer.  Electricity is
> > insanely expensive here and keeps getting more expensive all the time.
> 
> It's a big planet. Where is your "here"?

Germany

> > Hm, if the OEM batteries actually lasted 5 years and if what you say
> > is true, they must have been some awesome batteries.  That UPS takes
> > two batteries which are tightly packed, and they can get very warm.
> 
> OEM batteries must hold up through warranties, so are probably more
> locally sourced for high quality rather than low cost from
> China. Less expensive UPS models might be designed for a shorter
> expected lifetime, overcharging more as they get older and heat
> takes its toll. It's not something very many consumers are equipped
> to test.

The cheap APC models seem to produce a lot more heat, and their
batteries don't seem to last as long.  They work and they're not
really a good deal.  I don't have test equipment for UPCs, but you can
feel how warm they get and see how cheaply they're built without
special equipment.

Re: Home UPS recommendations

[hw]

On Fri, 2024-02-09 at 22:28 -0500, Felix Miata wrote:
> hw composed on 2024-02-10 03:18 (UTC+0100):
> [...]
> > Well, having batteries shipped over from the US would probably cost
> > more than a new UPS.
> 
> They are made in China. Surely there are UK sellers.

It might be cheaper to ship them from China than from the UK.
Apparently there's some kind of agreement in place that makes shipping
stuff from China (or Hong Kong) cheap --- but I don't know if it
applies to UPS batteries.

> The URL was simply provided
> as a representative of specifications of a very common SLA battery for UPS 
> type.
> 
> > That rules out Liebert, Cyperpower and Triplite due to uncertain or no
> > availability.  That only leaves Eaton.
> 
> Those from the above URL are the same spec batteries used in many APC models.

Maybe, maybe not.  I couldn't get replacement batteries for the UPS
from HP not only because HP was so ridiculous as to tell me that I
could pay for a support ticket to get a price for the batteries, but
also because the replacement batteries I could get had smaller
contacts.  Since I didn't want to take the risk of burning down the
place because the smaller contacts might have melted under load, I
decided to get a new UPS.

It wasn't too bad because I had only payed 65 for the UPS, and the
batteries lasted about 3 years.  I hate having to trash a perfectly
good UPS just because the batteries aren't available, and shame on HP
for being so environmentally friendly as to make and sell one-way
UPSs.  That kind of thing should be illegal.

But it was a lesson about battery availability.

> > Does Eaton provide their own Linux software and/or do they accept
> > monitoring results from other software like nut (assuming that apcupsd
> > won't work for Eaton UPSs)?
> 
> Mine are all connected to a multitude of devices more to protect the
> hardware from a lousy power source. I don't try to use the
> software. When power fails, I shut things down when the outage lasts
> more than a few seconds.

Well, I need the UPSs monitored so the computer(s) can shutdown
properly.

> When you live on a power grid, extended outages are much less common
> than when on or near waterfront or political boundaries. Most of
> Florida's population has no out-of-state neighbors to share
> utilities with, making its grid more fragile. Being the lightning
> capital of the world doesn't help either.

Did they put the power lines into the ground water or something like
that?

> > > Here in FL, replacement battery life averages under 30 months, no
> > > matter the battery brand. OEM batteries have averaged more like 54.
> 
> > How is that?  Do you have frequent power outages that stress the
> > batteries so much?
> The nature of the beasts is that their use generates heat. These batteries 
> don't
> like heat. The cooler they can be kept, the longer they can last. My 
> thermostat
> temp setting in heating season is 78F, in cooling season 82F, and cooling 
> season
> is much longer than heating season. In climates where heating season is most 
> of
> the year and tstat is kept below 65F, I'm guessing likely they could last a 
> decade
> or more.

At least you have some cooling.  Basically nobody here has that,
though it's probably becoming more widespread because it gets warmer
all the time, and it's unbearable in the summer.  Electricity is
insanely expensive here and keeps getting more expensive all the time.

> Battery orientation within the unit probably makes a difference, and
> even more, separation, with worst orientation side-by-side with no
> air space between. It's not easy to learn about such specs prior to
> purchase. UPS makers seem to want to keep battery specs top secret,
> out of marketing materials, even from manuals.

Hm, if the OEM batteries actually lasted 5 years and if what you say
is true, they must have been some awesome batteries.  That UPS takes
two batteries which are tightly packed, and they can get very warm.

Re: Home UPS recommendations

[hw]

On Fri, 2024-02-09 at 18:51 -0500, Felix Miata wrote:
> hw composed on 2024-02-09 22:45 (UTC+0100):
> [...]
> > Hm, Powercom doesn't seem to exist here, but Eaton seems to have good
> > prices.  How's the battery availability with Eaton?
> 
> <https://batterysharks.com/csb-battery-hr1234w-battery-replacement-12v-9ah-version.html>
> has the very common physical attributes used by all my Eaton, Tripp-Lite and
> Powercom UPSes.

Well, having batteries shipped over from the US would probably cost
more than a new UPS.  And the question is not so much if I can get the
batteries now but more if I can get them at reasonable prices in 20 or
30 years or later and every time in between when I need them.

That rules out Liebert, Cyperpower and Triplite due to uncertain or no
availability.  That only leaves Eaton.

Does Eaton provide their own Linux software and/or do they accept
monitoring results from other software like nut (assuming that apcupsd
won't work for Eaton UPSs)?

When I buy an UPS used so that there aren't any relevant warranty
issues APC might produce, am I not still better off buying APC because
the batteries are likely to be available?  Also, Eaton is very hard to
come by used while APC is very common here.

> Here in FL, replacement battery life averages under 30 months, no
> matter the battery brand. OEM batteries have averaged more like 54.

How is that?  Do you have frequent power outages that stress the
batteries so much?

54 months?  I'm getting confused now because I'm sure I replaced the
batteries in my 10-year-old APC UPS three times now, two times with
OEM batteries and last time --- recently --- with aftermarket ones
because they doubled the price for the OEM ones.  That would mean 5
years for the OEM batteries each --- and not 3 years like I said
before.

So 54 months could be right.  Now I'm curious to see how long the
aftermarket ones will last.

Re: Home UPS recommendations

[hw]

On Fri, 2024-02-09 at 12:10 -0500, Felix Miata wrote:
> hw composed on 2024-02-09 12:07 (UTC+0100):
> 
> > What other manufacturers could we buy UPSs from?
> 
> I bought my first APC just last year, because it was what I found on the 
> shelf in
> WalMart, only 450VA, with "Best-in-class Service and Support", more to protect
> bedroom TV and recorder against anomalies than power outage here in the 
> world's
> lightning capital. All my larger ones that are currently in service are Eaton 
> or
> Tripp-Lite. My spare is a Powercom with steel frame and cover, hard to extract
> swollen old batteries from.

Hm, Powercom doesn't seem to exist here, but Eaton seems to have good
prices.  How's the battery availability with Eaton?

Re: Home UPS recommendations (Was Re: rsync --delete vs rsync --delete-after)

[hw]

On Fri, 2024-02-09 at 11:34 -0500, Roy J. Tellason, Sr. wrote:
> On Friday 09 February 2024 06:07:16 am hw wrote:
> > What other manufacturers could we buy UPSs from?
>  
> I have a Tripp-Lite sitting next to me here that replaced an APC and
> has 2-1/2 times the capabiliity.  Been in service several weeks and
> so far I'm pretty happy with it...

They seem to be extremely rare here.  Are they any good, and how's the
battery availability?

Re: Home UPS recommendations (Was Re: rsync --delete vs rsync --delete-after)

[hw]

On Fri, 2024-02-09 at 06:44 -0500, Dan Ritter wrote:
> hw wrote: 
> > On Thu, 2024-02-08 at 15:29 +, Andy Smith wrote:
> > > [...]
> > That sucks.  I didn't know that they don't stand behind their
> > products, and it makes APC not recommendable any longer.
> > 
> > What other manufacturers could we buy UPSs from?
> 
> Liebert at the high end, CyberPower at the low end. 

I've never heard of Liebert, they are rather expensive.  Cyberpower
seems to be cheap.

Are they any good, and how is the battery availability?  Can they even
be monitored?

Re: Home UPS recommendations (Was Re: rsync --delete vs rsync --delete-after)

[hw]

On Thu, 2024-02-08 at 15:29 +, Andy Smith wrote:
> [...]
> Someone on the apcupsd mailing list thinks I have a faulty UPS or
> battery and should get a replacement.
> 
> APC refuses to proceed with a warranty claim because they don't
> support apcupsd or nut, only their own proprietary Powerchute. They
> won't proceed unless I can get Powerchute to show these events or a
> failed self-test.

That sucks.  I didn't know that they don't stand behind their
products, and it makes APC not recommendable any longer.

What other manufacturers could we buy UPSs from?

> [...]
> Having said that, I don't need to do a warranty claim. As it was
> only purchased a couple of weeks ago, consumer law allows me to
> return it to the seller as faulty whether they accept that or not,
> so I'll likely do that. It's just disappointing and a lot more
> hassle.

That seems like the best option.  You can then buy from a better
manufacturer which may avoid having trouble with APC later if there's
a problem.

Re: How can we change the keyboard layout?

[hw]

On Tue, 2024-02-06 at 21:43 -0600, David Wright wrote:
> On Tue 06 Feb 2024 at 11:28:11 (+0100), hw wrote:
> > [...]
> > I'm talking about wayland all the time; you brought Xorg up instead.
> 
> If that concerned you unduly, you could have put that in the Subject
> line.

It doesn't concern me.

> It's also obvious that "change the keyboard layout" is ambiguous,
> and you didn't intend to mean switching between two layouts.

It's not at all obvious, and it's not really ambiguous.  Changing the
keyboard layout has always been about changing the keybaord layout and
never about switching between different keyboards or between different
layouts.  That only came up much later when such a feature was added
to some so-called desktop environments, and it's a very short sighted
feature since it omits a way of changing they keyboard layouts, which
is a far more important feature.

> > [...]
> My 2014 keyboard appears to identify itself correctly as a K520. My
> old IBM M says it's an "AT Translated Set 2 keyboard", which seems
> reasonable for a keyboard dating from 1988.

I can see USB keyboards identifying themselves, but keyboards with
PS/2 or DIN connectors?  How does your keyboard from 1988 connect?

> In 26 years, the number of keys has increased considerably, from 102
> to 107, plus six audiovisual buttons. Two of the extra keys are
> shifting ones (win and fn).

10% more keys isn't considerably more.  Can you show me a keyboard
with 122 keys that has all keys usable and unique rather than sending
key combinations instead?

> > We're still trying to figure out keyboards manually.  Instead of
> > improvements, we now have come so far that we even can't do that at
> > all now.
> 
> I'm guessing that criticism is specific to wayland.

No, it's about keyboards and computers.  Can you show me a keyboard
that you can plug in and have working with the correct keyboard layout
so that every key does what it is supposed to do without any
configuration required?

I haven't seen one yet.  You still need to pick a keyboard in a Debian
or Fedora installer because it can't figure out for what language the
keyboard is, how many keys it has and whatever else may be necessary.
When you log into a GUI like gnome, you still need to pick the
keyboard layout in case you connected a different keyboard after the
installation.

I can connect a German keyboard instead of the currently connected US
one and neither the console nor gnome would adjust to that.  That one
keyboard identifies itself as 'foo' and the other one as 'bar' doesn't
make a difference.

I could connect both at the same time.  What do you think what happens
when I press the same key on either, like the = key for example?  I
haven't tried it yet but I'm sure that pressing = on the German
keyboard will give some other character instead of =.  How can that
be?

Do you see in the gnome settings multiple keyboards displayed when you
connect multiple keyboards at the same time so you can at least pick a
layout for each one manually?

> > [...]
> > It is.  Apparently nobody wants to maintain it anymore, and Fedora
> > seems to have plans to omit it entirely for next release (which is
> > like 4 months away).  And it makes perfect sense to omit it.
> 
> I haven't seen a reference for this. I have seen references
> that say something quite different.

About Xorg being no longer maintained or about Fedora dropping it?
What are those references?

I've only found that apparently one person wanted to see some features
in Xorg and decided to work on it after it was declared abandoned and
that it is still on the way out.  It seems it's only a matter of time.

> > I'm sure others will follow.  It's only that an up to it's date Debian
> > is already outdated so badly that you can't even get an AMD graphics
> > card to work which was released a year ago.  Maybe that's why Debian
> > users haven't noticed yet.
> > 
> > Already 20 years ago Debian was so outdated that I had to run testing
> > even on servers, and that's one of the reasons why I'm very reluctant
> > to use it for servers now.  Unfortunately, that leaves no good
> > alternative for servers.
> 
> I can't make heads or tails of this. I don't know whether you have
> some unique problems with running Debian: you certainly seem to have
> an awful lot of them.

I've described my experience and I can't help it when you can't
understand what I'm saying and draw conclusions out of what you don't
understand.

solved: How can we change the keyboard layout? (was: what keyboard do you use?)

[hw]

On Tue, 2024-02-06 at 01:37 -0500, Brian Sammon wrote:
> On Mon, 05 Feb 2024 21:06:30 +0100
> hw  wrote:
> 
> > Yes, it's a misunderstanding: How can we change the keyboard layout?
> 
> [...]
> https://medium.com/@canadaduane/key-remapping-in-linux-2021-edition-47320999d2aa

So this allowed me to install keyd[1] and with a simple config like
below, I get the tilde without shift and the backtick with shift.
Seems like a pretty cool daemon which can do a lot more than that :)


[ids]
*

[main]
` = ~

[shift]
` = `


[1]: https://github.com/rvaiya/keyd/tree/master

Re: How can we change the keyboard layout? (was: what keyboard do you use?)

[hw]

On Tue, 2024-02-06 at 11:28 +, debian-u...@howorth.org.uk wrote:
> hw  wrote:
> > On Mon, 2024-02-05 at 14:34 -0600, David Wright wrote:
> > > [...]
> > >  "The German layout differs from the English (US and UK) layouts in
> > >   four major ways:  
> > 
> > It's missing out on yet another major way: Umlaute.
> 
> If you reread the wikipedia page, you'll see that umlaut keys are
> mentioned as the second of the four ways.

Strange, it's also in the part you quoted.  I don't understand how I
missed that, sorry.

Re: On graphical environments [was: what keyboard do you use?]

[hw]

On Tue, 2024-02-06 at 06:33 +0100, to...@tuxteam.de wrote:
> On Mon, Feb 05, 2024 at 09:40:30PM +0100, hw wrote:
> 
> [...]
> 
> > Have you ever entered ipv4 addresses (and floats) on a German
> > keyboard?  It's insane.
> 
> While I do agree with other of your points (CTRL-] being one,
> although you exaggerated by one key), I don't understand this
> one. I'm entering IPv4 addresses every day in a German keyboard
> and I don't see any problem. IPv6 is trickier, though...
> 
> But floats? Where's the problem?

I'm entering numbers, like ipv4 addresses and floats, through the
number pad, with one hand.  Unless you change the keyboard layout so
you have a dot instead of a (useless) comma on the Del key, you can't
sanely enter such numbers, and you can't reasonably do it with one
hand.

Add to that that I'm using the trackball with my left hand and you
understand that I would have to take my hand off the trackball just to
enter such numbers.  Even then it would be nuisance.

> 
> [...]
> 
> > Gnome has actually become usable about 2 years ago, though I miss
> > fvwm [...]
> 
> That's why I came full circle back from GNOME (with some stops in
> XFCE, awesome) to fvwm. I like a setup where the window manager is
> *my* ally, not that of some krazy applications (browsers, I'm looking
> at you). Including a key combo for xkill (I even clawed back the
> little skull for the cursor :-)
> 
> Fvwm does work in Debian. Try it!

Then why aren't you using fvwm?  Gnome is more your enemy than your
ally since it still lacks almost all configurability.

Re: Of German keycap translations [was: How can we change the keyboard layout?]

[hw]

On Tue, 2024-02-06 at 13:32 +0100, to...@tuxteam.de wrote:
> On Tue, Feb 06, 2024 at 01:07:24PM +0100, Ralph Aichinger wrote:
> 
> [...]
> 
> > But translating "Ctrl" to "Strg" (if you do not read it as "String
> > or even "Strange" as some people do) is not one of these [...]
> 
> Funny. I always read it as "Strangulieren"...

Hm I guess that's one way of controlling someone.  For a computer,
you might have to put some variable resistors into a buch of wires to
make it work.  But they're way too digital for that.

Re: How can we change the keyboard layout? (was: what keyboard do you use?)

[hw]

On Tue, 2024-02-06 at 01:37 -0500, Brian Sammon wrote:
> On Mon, 05 Feb 2024 21:06:30 +0100
> hw  wrote:
> 
> > Yes, it's a misunderstanding: How can we change the keyboard layout?
> 
> I recently dug into this because I am running Debian on a
> Chromebook, and I wanted to map the Google-key (located next to the
> A key, where you usually expect Caps-Lock to be) to be a Ctrl, for
> Emacs-Correctness.  I wanted a solution that would also work when I
> used an external keyboard (which has an actual CapsLock next to the
> A), and would work both in X and in console mode.

Wow that's a very tall order!

> The solution I found, which should work when using Wayland as well,
> was to customize the lowlevel scancode-to-keycode mapping that is
> managed by udev.  You can have different remappings for different
> keyboard models.
> 
> This keymapping system is very powerful, but somewhat ideosyncratic,
> and somewhat poorly documented.

At least there is a way :)

Have you been able to find the predefined keyboard layouts that can be
selected through gnome (or KDE) settings somewhere?  I was thinking if
I could find those, I might be able to make a copy of one and then
modify it they way I need it.  Or is that approach not even feasible?

I think I rather don't want to change the scancode-to-keycode mapping
but would want to change the keycode-to-key mapping like it's done
with xmodmap.

> And it's an edit-the-configfile system; I'm not aware of any GUI
> config tools for it.

Well, I prefer that.

> Some of the webpages in my notes that I remember being useful are:
> https://wiki.archlinux.org/title/Keyboard_input

Hmm, that gives me wev to start with, as the equivalent of xev.

Is wayland using this XKB thing?  When I run 'setxkbmap -print
-verbose 10' I'm getting 'WARNING: Running setxkbmap against an
Xwayland server'.  Does that mean we're not supposed to do that and/or
that we're not supposed to use XKB?

> https://yulistic.gitlab.io/2017/12/linux-keymapping-with-udev-hwdb/ 
> (including some of the comments that contain more recent info)
> https://medium.com/@canadaduane/key-remapping-in-linux-2021-edition-47320999d2aa
> 
> Some somewhat-informative files on my computer were
> /lib/udev/hwdb.d/60-keyboard.hwdb (comes with udev)

That's an interesting file indeed!

So I want to change that I have to press Shift+` to get a tilde to not
having to press Shift.  I. e. the key is the first key on top row of
my keyboard and has ` and ~ on it, and I want to just press it and get
a tilde.

Wev says 'key: 49'.  That is 0x31 which doesn't show up in this file.
Now what?

> /usr/include/linux/input-event-codes.h (comes with linux-libc-dev package)

According to that, 49 is KEY_N and 'tilde' doesn't exist.

> Gotchas include:
> Some things *must* be in lowercase (keycodes, I think?)
> Some things *must* be in uppercase (certain hexadecimal stuff?)

Yeah it says something about that in the comments in 60-keyboard.hwdb.

> For best results, triple-check that the case you use is exactly the
> same as the example/sample config files.

It seems to me that 60-keyboard.hwdb is intended to provide certain
keycodes --- i. e. symbols understood by the kernel since they seem to
show up in input-event-codes.h --- for a bunch of different keyboards.

That seems like the case Loris described with a laptop.  Perhaps he
would need to specify some (evdev) identifier for that particular
keyboard in 60-keyboard.hwdb, along with a mapping for the scancode
and the symbol --- and then somehow make a pull request or bug report
as described in the file.  Then these keys may end up working for
everyone with such a laptop.

> If you get this wrong, udev will just ignore the erroneous parts of
> your config file, (and you might think it just didn't see it)
> instead of giving an error message.

Hm, that's bad ...

Still I think this the wrong place to make changes for my case.  I
could try something with my keyboard, but I don't understand these
evdev designations in 60-keyboard.hwdb, so I won't even be able to
specify my keyboard to make settings for it.

Re: How can we change the keyboard layout?

[hw]

On Tue, 2024-02-06 at 10:57 +0100, Loris Bennett wrote:
> [...]
> OK, now I am with you.  Indeed, I have an HP EliteBook 840 G6 which, to
> my mind insanely, has no 'insert' key, but does have 'call' and 'hang
> up' telephone keys, which are of no use to me.  I have tried and failed
> to remap them.  The keys produce two keycodes and I couldn't work out
> how to map that to a single insert.

That is another good example that we need to be able to change the
keyboard layout.

When these strange keys create scan codes and you're using Xorg, it's
probably easy to remap them with xmodmap.  Just change their mapping
to what usually the insert key is mapped to.

> [...]
> As many have pointed out, it is short for 'Steuerung', but I have met
> many Germans who refer to this key as 'String'.  I am not sure why

'Strg' doesn't belong on a key.  It's 'Ctrl'.  There is no German
translation for that, and calling it 'Steuerung' is plain wrong.  A
more correct translation would be 'Kontrolle', and it is also wrong
for this key.  If someone says 'String' that only shows that they have
no clue what they're talking about.

'Strg' means nothing.  It's another failure like 'allgemeine
Schutzverletzung' which, very likely, is a failed transation of
'segementation fault'.  'Allgemeine Schutzverletzung' means nothing.

A lot of things don't translate into German and the people who are
creating such translations don't know what the term they are trying to
translate means and thus come up with such nonsense.  I never read any
documentation in German because the transation is always garbage and
not understandable; you have to read it in English for it to make any
sense.  Computers and software were not created and developed in
Germany but in the US and thus fit into the English language and not
into German.  That's still the case, and German doesn't have the
necessary words.  There's probably more to it, like computers being
part of the worlds American peoeple live in while not being part of
the worlds Germans live in, with a few exceptions, so they never made
it into the language.  There is still not even a word for 'computer'
in German (there is no word for cellphone, either).  Germany has been
cut off, and it shows.

When you need to tell a German to press Ctrl, you have to tell them to
press Strg.  They won't find the Ctrl key and they won't find the
Steuerung key.  Those keys aren't on German keyboards.  I don't know
why they changed that, it used be Ctrl on Germany keyboards.  People
used to be able to find the Ctrl key when you told them to press
Control.  It's just bullshit, they should never have changed it, and
it's stupid and annoying.

Re: what keyboard do you use?

[hw]

On Tue, 2024-02-06 at 11:11 +0700, Max Nikulin wrote:
> On 05/02/2024 18:37, hw wrote:
> > With xmodmap, I was able to adjust the layout as needed.  With
> > wayland, I can't do that anymore
> 
> Untested:
> 
> https://who-t.blogspot.com/2020/02/user-specific-xkb-configuration-part-1.html
> User-specific XKB configuration - part 1
> 
> and I have heard about a low-level trick
> 
> /etc/udev/hwdb.d/90-custom-keyboard.hwdb
> evdev:input:b0003v1A2Cp0E24*
>   KEYBOARD_KEY_70039=f14

ls -la /etc/udev/hwdb.d/
total 0
drwxr-xr-x. 1 root root  0 Jan 22 01:00 .
drwxr-xr-x. 1 root root 82 Feb  5 13:03 ..

But this is on Fedora, and perhaps Debian does it differently.

> However I am unsure if it is possible to remap "Fn" key, it may be 
> handled by device firmware.

IIUC that is the case: The number of keys the PC hardware can deal
with is (was) limited, and it's less than 122.  There used to be
terminals that could use all 122 keys, using connectors that don't fit
PCs.  So a keyboard to be connected to a PC which has 122 keys is
either incompatibel, or you can't use all keys, or the
hardware/firmware in the keyboard translates (some) keys to what a PC
can understand.

In case of the 122 key keyoard I'm using, its hard-/firmware
translates keys like F14 to Shift+4.  IIRC that was the classical way
to press F14 (because someone made up that pressing Shift+F4 should be
called F14 because they wanted more keys for some software).  There is
probably no scan code for F14 a PC would understand because it doesn't
exist for a PC.  This keyboard has other keys like 'Help' that it also
translates to something a PC can understand.

Re: How can we change the keyboard layout?

[hw]

On Tue, 2024-02-06 at 09:17 +, Michael Kjörling wrote:
> On 6 Feb 2024 00:11 +0100, from h...@adminart.net (hw):
> > and for almost 30 years we had
> > to manually switch on NumLock every time we started an X11 session
> 
> numlockx has been around since _at least_ 2002, so over 20 years.
> Depending on your exact definition of "almost 30 years" that leaves a
> gap of at most a few years.

NumLock has been around well before 2002.

> 
> https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php?title=Activating_numlock_on_bootup=5154
> 
> https://tracker.debian.org/news/509143/accepted-numlockx-10-3-i386-source/
> 
> May I humbly suggest that if you're having some issue, it might be
> more productive if you ask how to solve that issue within the
> environment you're using (whether GNOME on Wayland or Xfce on X11 or
> plain virtual terminals at the console or a mix or whatever) than to
> simply gripe about the issue and when someone suggests a possible
> solution simply brush it off?

Nobody has yet suggested a solution to how to change keyboard layouts
when using wayland.

> Chances are that someone has an entirely workable suggestion, if not
> an outright solution, which _would_ help; but whether you intend
> them that way or not, your posts come across as rather condescending
> or spiteful, which seems to me to likely put people off from even
> reading them, severely reducing the pool of people who might have an
> answer to share.

It's not unusual that people don't like to hear the truth.

Re: How can we change the keyboard layout?

[hw]

On Mon, 2024-02-05 at 22:25 -0600, David Wright wrote:
> On Tue 06 Feb 2024 at 00:11:43 (+0100), hw wrote:
> [...]
> > How can it be so difficult to get basic things like that right?  It
> > still sucks because after more then 30 years, we still don't have a
> > good way to change the keyboard layouts!
> 
> I presume you're now talking about wayland, though I don't think it's
> been around for 30 years.

I'm talking about wayland all the time; you brought Xorg up instead.

Keyboards are around for more than 30 years, and they have always been
troublesome.  I'm finding it amazing that there were no features added
over time, like the ability to actually have more keys and every
keyboard giving information about itself to the computer.  If displays
were like keyboards, we'd still be trying to figure out modelines
manually.

We're still trying to figure out keyboards manually.  Instead of
improvements, we now have come so far that we even can't do that at
all now.

> > [...]
> > Xorg doesn't seem to be maintained anymore and is on the way out.
> > 
> > So how do you change the keyboard layout when using wayland?
> 
> I've no idea. I don't seem to have noticed that X is on the way out.

It is.  Apparently nobody wants to maintain it anymore, and Fedora
seems to have plans to omit it entirely for next release (which is
like 4 months away).  And it makes perfect sense to omit it.

I'm sure others will follow.  It's only that an up to it's date Debian
is already outdated so badly that you can't even get an AMD graphics
card to work which was released a year ago.  Maybe that's why Debian
users haven't noticed yet.

Already 20 years ago Debian was so outdated that I had to run testing
even on servers, and that's one of the reasons why I'm very reluctant
to use it for servers now.  Unfortunately, that leaves no good
alternative for servers.

Re: How can we change the keyboard layout?

[hw]

On Mon, 2024-02-05 at 20:59 +, Michael Kjörling wrote:
> On 5 Feb 2024 21:06 +0100, from h...@adminart.net (hw):
> > [...]
> > --- and then I need to be able to change the keyboard layout in
> > wayland sessions unless I use an US keyboard.  But I only have one
> > of those.
> 
> Pretty sure /etc/default/keyboard has been a thing on Debian for just
> about forever. I haven't dug into the details but it seems to date
> back to 2006 which would put its first appearance at circa Sarge or
> Etch (3.1/mid-2005 or 4.0/early-2007 respectively); possibly even
> earlier, but that's as far back as the console-setup package history
> goes.

Yeah it was an issue back then, and how do you know that there's such
a thing as /etc/default/keyboard and what it means.  Try to get a
German Model M keyboard to work right with Xorg in, for example, 2010.

It starts with the question 'How many keys does it have?' and soon the
question is 'How do I turn CapsLock into Ctrl?' and 'How do I put that
into xorg.conf?' --- which eventually was omitted, so you had to bring
that back, and that even in snippets, to get it to work.  Ugh ...

Even fvwm kinda never got it right because stuff would change in some
ideosyncratic, unexpected way depending on if NumLock was on or off.
So don't you dare to turn that off --- and for almost 30 years we had
to manually switch on NumLock every time we started an X11 session and
if we were to switch to a console, we had to turn it on again and then
do something because it was screwed up after switching back (or the
other way round).

How can it be so difficult to get basic things like that right?  It
still sucks because after more then 30 years, we still don't have a
good way to change the keyboard layouts!

> The one on my Bookworm system even has a comment right there on how to
> use an entirely custom keymap, and that's also mentioned in the
> keyboard(5) man page.

"In Debian systems the default keyboard layout is described in
 /etc/default/keyboard and it is shared between X and the
 console."

Xorg doesn't seem to be maintained anymore and is on the way out.

So how do you change the keyboard layout when using wayland?

Re: How can we change the keyboard layout? (was: what keyboard do you use?)

[hw]

On Mon, 2024-02-05 at 14:34 -0600, David Wright wrote:
> [...]
>  "The German layout differs from the English (US and UK) layouts in
>   four major ways:

It's missing out on yet another major way: Umlaute.

The Umlaute take whole keys for themselves like other letters, and
since there aren't any more keys on the keyboard, they replace other
characters which contributes to the German keyboard layout being
rather awkward and difficult to use.  Whoever created it has
completely overlooked that computers aren't typewriters.

And it's very bad not to have a right Alt key.  That also has
consequences that make things worse.

> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_keyboard_layout

Re: Many systemd units do not start anymore

[hw]

On Mon, 2024-02-05 at 17:28 +0100, Christoph Pleger wrote:
> Hello,
> 
> > > Does anyone have an idea what is possibly wrong?
> > 
> > Look for more information.
> 
> This is the output of systemctl list-jobs :
> 
> JOB UNIT TYPE  STATE
> 102 autofs.service   start waiting
> 82  mlocate.timerstart waiting
> 80  e2scrub_all.timerstart waiting
> 117 cron.service start waiting
> 1   graphical.target start waiting
> 140 apache2.service  start waiting
> 127 nullmailer.service   start waiting
> 81  phpsessionclean.timerstart waiting
> 94  nslcd.servicestart waiting
> 40  time-sync.target start waiting
> 86  logrotate.timer  start waiting
> 83  man-db.timer start waiting
> 84  apt-daily-upgrade.timer  start waiting
> 115 systemd-update-utmp-runlevel.service start waiting
> 135 atd.service  start waiting
> 79  timers.targetstart waiting
> 87  apt-daily.timer  start waiting
> 39  systemd-time-wait-sync.service   start running
> 88  fstrim.timer start waiting
> 2   multi-user.targetstart waiting
> 
> As you can see, there are really many failed services.

They haven't failed, at least not yet.

>From the man page:


Job Commands
   list-jobs [PATTERN...]
   List jobs that are in progress. If one or more PATTERNs are
   specified, only jobs for units matching one of them are shown.

   When combined with --after or --before the list is augmented
   with information on which other job each job is waiting for,
   and which other jobs are waiting for it, see above.

   cancel [JOB...]
   Cancel one or more jobs specified on the command line by their
   numeric job IDs. If no job ID is specified, cancel all pending
   jobs.


So what are they waiting for?

(I have to admit that this is actually rather friendly to the users.)

Re: what keyboard do you use?

[hw]

On Mon, 2024-02-05 at 08:40 -0800, James H. H. Lampert wrote:
> On 2/2/24 5:25 PM, Lee wrote:
> > I figure there's a high percentage of keyboard jockeys here so ..
> > which keyboard do you like and why?
> 
> Unicomp. They acquired the rights and the tooling for the IBM buckling 
> spring technology.
> 
> If only they also offered mice that were as rugged as their keyboards.

... and trackballs like CST ones, and full metal versions.

Re: what keyboard do you use?

[hw]

On Mon, 2024-02-05 at 08:46 -0500, songbird wrote:
> hw wrote:
> ...
> > It's a badly missing feature from gnome settings that we can't change
> > the key bindings.  The layout must be defined somewhere, though.
> > Maybe someone knows where that is?
> 
>   in MATE there's keyboard settings you can use to switch
> around keyboards and common keys being swapped.

Does that work with wayland?

With a German keyboard, one of the keys I need to change is ~.
There's also ` when you get to do with databases, and a bunch of
others, like changing comma to dot and more that don't come to mind
atm.

Have you ever entered ipv4 addresses (and floats) on a German
keyboard?  It's insane.

> i don't use them now, but did in the past.  likely GNOME has
> something similar but i haven't touched that desktop in quite a long
> time.

Gnome has actually become usable about 2 years ago, though I miss
fvwm, and the lack of configurability with Gnome sucks badly.  I'd
like KDE much better, but KDE has always been rather slow and too
buggy.  When I tried KDE with wayland it didn't really work at all.

The only alternative I know of is sway, but I don't get along with
tiling WMs.  I like the idea; the problem is that they need to do
floating windows just as well, and they don't do that.

I had fvwm configured so it would manage the windows for me instead of
having to manage them myself, including tiling, but as long there's
no wayland version of fvwm, we're stuck with KDE and Gnome ...

Maybe give Gnome another try.  It does have its advantages, and it
can't hurt to check it out.

The additional keys on my 122 key keyboard help with Gnome (and other
things) a great deal.  So if you want to get a kind of Model M, get
122 keys.

Who still makes 122 key keyboards except Unicomp?

How can we change the keyboard layout? (was: what keyboard do you use?)

[hw]

On Mon, 2024-02-05 at 15:26 +0100, Loris Bennett wrote:
> hw  writes:
> 
> > On Sun, 2024-02-04 at 18:23 +, Michael Kjörling wrote:
> > > On 4 Feb 2024 12:08 -0600, from n...@n0nb.us (Nate Bargmann):
> > > > xmodmap trickery?  I am running GNOME on Wayland.
> > > 
> > > Or whatever the equivalent in Wayland (or GNOME) might be. Either way,
> > > surely there must be _some_ way to map (sets of) keyboard scan codes
> > > to symbols or actions, and that way is almost certainly reconfigurable
> > > because otherwise everyone would be stuck with the exact same keyboard
> > > layout, which would make for a rather poor internationalization/
> > > localization experience.
> > 
> > We are stuck with it :(  Last time I checked, KDE isn't any better.
> > 
> > With xmodmap, I was able to adjust the layout as needed.  With
> > wayland, I can't do that anymore and I'm stuck with an US layout ---
> > which my keyboard fortunately physically has --- because some keys on
> > German keyboards are so badly placed and configured that I need to be
> > able to change the layout if want to use a German keyboard with a
> > German layout.
> 
> Maybe I have misunderstood the problem, but I use Gnome with Wayland and
> regularly switch between US and German layouts.  I just added the German
> layout in the 'Keyboard' section of Gnome's Settings and switch with the
> default shortcut of 'Super + space'.

Yes, it's a misunderstanding: How can we change the keyboard layout?

We can only pick or add another of the available layouts, but we can't
change them.  If I were using a German keyboard, I could pick a German
layout, and it would be a good starting point --- but I still won't be
able to change the layout.  Some characters on a German keyboard (and
layout) are placed very badly, and I need to change some of them for
the keyboard to be usable.

And try to figure out how to press ^] on a German keyboard, for
example, like telnet used to tell you.  It's no problem at all with an
US keyboard without any modification.  With a German keyboard, you
have to press something like AltGr+Shift+Strg+] ...  It took me like
30 years or so before I managed.  And what the hell is 'Strg' supposed
to mean?

So how do we change keyboard layouts when using wayland?  Why is there
no way to do that in gnome settings (or KDEs equivalent) like there
should be?

Picking from/adding a bunch of available keyboard layouts is an
entirely obsolete feature.  I never need that.  I only need to be able
to change the keyboard layout after picking one once in the installer.

In case I switch to a different keyboard which I might do every so
many years when I feel like doing that, I also need to change it for
the console in the first place.  How that is done changes like all the
time, and when it's not right, the keyboard won't work right,
especially in that the function keys to switch between consoles don't
work[1].  So that's a big issue right there --- and then I need to be
able to change the keyboard layout in wayland sessions unless I use an
US keyboard.  But I only have one of those.

It's certainly a good feature for the 7 people who keep between
switching different keyboard layouts and/or keyboards frequently.  But
the relevant feature everyone needs is now entirely missing.


[1]: Maybe that changed with wayland; I haven't tried yet.

Re: what keyboard do you use?

[hw]

On Mon, 2024-02-05 at 08:40 -0500, songbird wrote:
> hw wrote:
> > On Sun, 2024-02-04 at 09:43 -0500, songbird wrote:
> ...
> > >   if they made them with a metal base mine would probably
> > > still be working, but the plastic base is too flexible for
> > > me.  i have two dead ones.  :(  the pressure fitted ribbon
> > > cable connection is a really bad design and those plastic
> > > tabs break off.
> > > 
> > >   otherwise the feel is good.  very loud when i'm writing...
> > 
> > IIRC IBM omitted the metal plate long time ago.  What are you doing
> > that it's too wobbly for you?
> 
>   it's not wobbly it is the entire keyboard flexes when you
> use it in a non-conventional manner.  i do not use them on a
> flat desktop, i have them laying across my lap as a am laying
> here on my comfy perch

Hm, ok, I still find it amazing that it's so wobbly that the
wobblyness is causing issues since it's still relatively sturdy
compared to other keyboards.  They're not inflexible, though, so using
like them like this, it's not inconvieable that they break.

That pretty much leaves you with having to put a metal plate (like a
piece of 3mm aluminum) under any keyboard, and that'll probably make
it feel cold in your lap.

> [...]
>   i won't contact Unicomp again because despite their claims
> of having goals of great customer service i tried to resolve
> issues of a bad key and this repeated issue of malfunctioning
> connections and didn't get any satisfaction.  the key problem
> was noted and should have been covered under the 1yr warranty,
> but when i brought it up i got static and resistance.  three
> strikes and i'm done with them.

I'm sorry to hear that.  It seems like they cut back on the models and
options a bit, so perhaps they also cut back on customer service.  I
can't tell since I was so lucky as to get mine through German ebay,
and it cost less than what they cost new though it was practically
new.  The shipping alone may cost more than the keyboard itself if I
were to order directly from them :(

>   i did like the restored keyboard project[*] and read through
> their website and history to follow it for a few hours but
> the overall price is just too much ($300-500).

Oh!  I didn't notice that they have come this far and now even offer
different models!  I didn't like the layout of the Model F they
planned a few years ago, and I found the price too steep for a
keyboard the layout of which I don't want.

I'll have to check out their web site; if I could get a F104 Model M
in all metal for 300, it may be worth thinking about getting one ---
but the shipping will probably forbid it.

I do like full size keyboards like the Model M and even more so the
122 key version.  It kinda sucks that every other keyboard is smaller,
especially since the keys are squeezed so tightly together that it can
be difficult to type on it.  The Cherry G80, for example, has that
problem --- it's almost as if Casio designed it like their watches
since they're trying to sell those with bracelets sized for puppets
and small children, which are way too short for anyone with normal
size wrists.

> $80 for what i have now was acceptable.

Which one is that?  It must be an unusually sturdy one.  Or did you
put a metal plate under it?

> [*] https://www.modelfkeyboards.com/

Re: what keyboard do you use?

[hw]

On Sun, 2024-02-04 at 18:23 +, Michael Kjörling wrote:
> On 4 Feb 2024 12:08 -0600, from n...@n0nb.us (Nate Bargmann):
> > xmodmap trickery?  I am running GNOME on Wayland.
> 
> Or whatever the equivalent in Wayland (or GNOME) might be. Either way,
> surely there must be _some_ way to map (sets of) keyboard scan codes
> to symbols or actions, and that way is almost certainly reconfigurable
> because otherwise everyone would be stuck with the exact same keyboard
> layout, which would make for a rather poor internationalization/
> localization experience.

We are stuck with it :(  Last time I checked, KDE isn't any better.

With xmodmap, I was able to adjust the layout as needed.  With
wayland, I can't do that anymore and I'm stuck with an US layout ---
which my keyboard fortunately physically has --- because some keys on
German keyboards are so badly placed and configured that I need to be
able to change the layout if want to use a German keyboard with a
German layout.

It's one of these basic things we shouldn't need to have any trouble
at all with, and it really pisses me off.

All the developers are proabably Americans and never come across this
problem.  Why else won't they let us change the keyobard layout as we
need to.

Re: what keyboard do you use?

[hw]

On Sun, 2024-02-04 at 11:36 -0600, Nate Bargmann wrote:
> * On 2024 04 Feb 04:23 -0600, hw wrote:
> > On Fri, 2024-02-02 at 20:09 -0600, Nate Bargmann wrote:
> > > [...]
> > > I have several of the now classic IBM Model M keyboards I procured in
> > > the '90s.  Modern BIOSes don't like them even with a PS/2 to USB
> > > adapter so I gave up on them.
> > 
> > They might work with a so-called active adapter.  IIRC it has
> > something to do with the adpater suppling power.  With some research
> > and an investment of like $5, you can probably still use your
> > keyboards.
> 
> As I use GNOME, I need the left menu key as I have the hotspot disabled
> to open the overview.  My old Model Ms lack that key.
> 
> > Unicomp[1] still makes these keyboards, and you can get them for USB.
> 
> I don't like their swapping of the right Alt and Menu keys unless the
> keyboard can be configured to swap them back.  Otherwise, I would prefer
> the right Menu key in that position be removed and that area given back
> to the Space bar.  I don't find any documentation on their Web site
> about that capability.

Contact them, maybe you can get a layout you want --- or check out the
122 key version closeley.

> I do like about the Daskeyboard is that instead of being the right Menu
> key that key is a Function key much like a laptop and it activates media
> control keys on several of the function keys.  It's quite handy to raise
> or lower the speaker volume when playing a video full screen.
> 
> > I'm using one right now (with 122 keys), and among all the different
> > keyboards I used over the last 40 years, I've never found anything
> > better than these buckling spring ones.
> 
> No question.  The M is the ultimate but unless someone can point me to a
> document that shows swapping those two keys, I won't be buying.

I'm not sure what you mean.  I don't have these stupid extra keys
nobody wants or needs they put into the row with the space bar --- I
guess you mean those?  Those get in the way all the time and I hate
them.  On the 122 key version, they are at the bottom of the small
block of keys an the left where they are not in the way.

You can pull all the keycaps and swap them around if you like.  If
you're still using Xorg, you should be able to reconfigure the key
bindings.

I couldn't find out how to do that with wayland :(  Without being able
to modify the key bindings, I'm stuck with an US layout, and keyboards
with a physical US layout are almost impossible to get here.

It's a badly missing feature from gnome settings that we can't change
the key bindings.  The layout must be defined somewhere, though.
Maybe someone knows where that is?

Re: what keyboard do you use?

[hw]

On Sun, 2024-02-04 at 09:43 -0500, songbird wrote:
> hw wrote:
> > On Fri, 2024-02-02 at 20:09 -0600, Nate Bargmann wrote:
> > > [...]
> > > I have several of the now classic IBM Model M keyboards I procured in
> > > the '90s.  Modern BIOSes don't like them even with a PS/2 to USB
> > > adapter so I gave up on them.
> > 
> > They might work with a so-called active adapter.  IIRC it has
> > something to do with the adpater suppling power.  With some research
> > and an investment of like $5, you can probably still use your
> > keyboards.
> > 
> > Unicomp[1] still makes these keyboards, and you can get them for USB.
> > 
> > I'm using one right now (with 122 keys), and among all the different
> > keyboards I used over the last 40 years, I've never found anything
> > better than these buckling spring ones.
> 
>   if they made them with a metal base mine would probably
> still be working, but the plastic base is too flexible for
> me.  i have two dead ones.  :(  the pressure fitted ribbon
> cable connection is a really bad design and those plastic
> tabs break off.
> 
>   otherwise the feel is good.  very loud when i'm writing...

IIRC IBM omitted the metal plate long time ago.  What are you doing
that it's too wobbly for you?

Re: script/history

[hw]

Oh you're right, I entirely overlooked the usage of 'script' and
didn't understand the question right, sorry.

On Sun, 2024-02-04 at 06:28 -0500, Michael Grant wrote:
> > $ script foo.txt
> > Script started, output log file is 'foo.txt'.
> > $ date
> > Sun  4 Feb 09:44:00 GMT 2024
> > $ exit
> > exit
> > Script done.
> > $ history|tail -n2
> > 30797  2024-02-04 09:43:57  script foo.txt
> > 30798  2024-02-04 09:44:21  history|tail -n2
> > 
> > I did try to search on this but just got lots of "bash history" and 
> > "history in
> > bash script" references.
> 
> So this might surprise you but the commands are actually in the
> history list!  But not in the current shell.
> 
> What happens is this:
> 
> You start 'script foo.txt' and this starts a sub bash shell on a
> different pseudo tty.  You run some commands, it appends each command
> to the history of this sub-shell's history.
> 
> You then exit your script.  Those commands you ran are at the bottom
> of .bash_history (try to cat that file out after you exit script and
> you should see them).
> 
> But those commands are not sucked into the history of your current
> shell.  Then, you log out (or exit) your current shell and the history
> of that shell overwrites the history of the previous one.
> 
> If all you want to do is save off the commands after you exit your
> script session, then simply move or copy .bash_history out of the way
> before it gets overwritten.
> 
> You might consider setting $HISTFILE to some other location other than
> .bash_history.
> 
> Michael Grant

Re: Network Problem: Redirection

[hw]

On Fri, 2024-02-02 at 16:47 -0700, Charles Curley wrote:
> On Fri, 2 Feb 2024 15:52:41 -0700
> Charles Curley  wrote:
> 
> > But I don't think that will solve the routing problem.
> 
> Well, I was wrong. That did solve the routing problems.
> 
> I moved the apt-proxy line for the VMs' benefit into a VM's /etc/hosts
> and took it out of hawk's /etc/hosts. samba is now an alias in the
> virtual zone, so I don't need that line at all.
> 
> Thanks, Greg, for spotting that. Sometimes I'm dense. It took me a
> while to realize what you were getting at.
> 

This is not a routing problem in the first place.

If you have a DNS server configured that can resolve for you LAN(s)
(like you should), you don't need to (and should not) change anything
in /etc/hosts.  When you specify different addresses for the same host
at arbitrary places, you're likely to create confusion, especially
when you're using addresses that are supposed to have the same
meaning.  If you need to specify different names for the same host,
use CNAME records.  If you need to specify different addresses for the
same host, use different host names (at least I don't have a better
idea for that).

If you have vlans in use, make sure the addresses in the networks do
not overlap.  Otherwise your networks may not be as virtual as you
think, vlans or not, and you may create something that looks like a
routing problem.  If you're not using vlans and want virtual netwoks,
it's probably a very good idea to use vlans (and to use routing if
desirable and necessary).

Re: script/history

[hw]

On Sun, 2024-02-04 at 09:46 +, Gareth Evans wrote:
> Re the script command, does anyone know of a way to make commands
> run during a script session appear in bash history too?

Maybe this:
https://serverfault.com/questions/16204/how-to-make-bash-scripts-print-out-every-command-before-it-executes

It seems awkward to have scripts being put into the history.  You
could do something like

cat script.sh >> ~/.bash_history

maybe.  How would that be useful?

Re: what keyboard do you use?

[hw]

On Fri, 2024-02-02 at 20:25 -0500, Lee wrote:
> [...]
> I figure there's a high percentage of keyboard jockeys here so ..
> which keyboard do you like and why?

It comes down to your personal preference and on how much you're
willing to pay for a good keybard.  I'm using [1].

I'm using it because I'm finding these buckling spring keyboards the
best variant to type on.  I've never found anything better in the last
40 years.

They also have the advantage that they have a decent size not only for
the keys and their spacing, but also for the housing which is designed
so you can put stuff like pencils on it.

The ones from IBM are so old that they're usually somewhat worn out.
They also have become difficult to get and expensive.  Unless you can
find a new old stock and are willing to pay for it, you're better off
getting one from Unicomp.

I even got a new Model M a couple years ago for a steal, and I still
have it.  I like the Unicomp better because of the extra keys without
which I wouldn't know what to do, and it feels a little better to type
on than the Model M.

As an alternative, you could look for a Cherry G80.  Apparently they
don't make them anymore (And I wouldn't buy anything of what they show
on their web site now.).  It's a pity since they were acceptable
keyboards if you like their switches and if you could get one for a
decent price.  They were built cheaply and somewhat wobbly, and I
don't like that cheapness at all, but the money was in the switches.
When you have one have on your desk for typing it's fine.  The
switches are good (though I don't particularly like them, but that's
personal preference) and not in any way cheap or wobbly.

I would like Outemu switches way better than the Cherry ones if the
Outemu ones weren't so wobbly.  They give me nicer feedback while the
Cherry switches feel like nothing (perhaps that's intentional), and
I'm finding their way of travel too small while the Outemu switches
seem to travel a little further.  If you can find a keyboard with
Outemus, it might be worth a try.

Stay away from these so-called 'gaming keyboards'.  Everything that's
labled 'gaming' is usually either incompatible, otherwise bad, or
overpriced, or all of that at the same time.  So if you find a 'gaming
keyboard' at least make sure it's compatible before buying.


[1]:
https://www.pckeyboard.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD_Code=UB40B5A

Re: what keyboard do you use?

[hw]

On Fri, 2024-02-02 at 20:09 -0600, Nate Bargmann wrote:
> [...]
> I have several of the now classic IBM Model M keyboards I procured in
> the '90s.  Modern BIOSes don't like them even with a PS/2 to USB
> adapter so I gave up on them.

They might work with a so-called active adapter.  IIRC it has
something to do with the adpater suppling power.  With some research
and an investment of like $5, you can probably still use your
keyboards.

Unicomp[1] still makes these keyboards, and you can get them for USB.

I'm using one right now (with 122 keys), and among all the different
keyboards I used over the last 40 years, I've never found anything
better than these buckling spring ones.


[1]: https://www.pckeyboard.com/page/category/UKBD

Re: Automatically installing GRUB on multiple drives

[hw]

On Fri, 2024-02-02 at 14:41 +0100, Franco Martelli wrote:
> On 31/01/24 at 22:51, hw wrote:
> > > [...]
> > > If your suggested solution is "use hardware RAID", no need to repeat
> > > that one though: I see you said it in a few other messages, and that
> > > suggestions has been received. Assume the conversation continues
> > > amongst people who don't like that suggestion.
> 
> > Well, too late, I already said it again since you asked.  Do you have
> > a better solution?  It's ok not to like this solution, but do you have
> > a better one?
> 
> There is an alternative to hardware RAID if you want a Linux RAID: you 
> can disable UEFI in the BIOS and delete the ESP as I did when I bought 
> my gaming PC several years ago.
> 
> I created my software RAID level 5 using debian-installer and it works 
> perfectly without ESP, you have to choose "Expert install" in "Advanced 
> options". I installed Bookworm when it was released in this way.

Right, I forgot about that.  Is that always an option?

Re: Automatically installing GRUB on multiple drives

[hw]

On Wed, 2024-01-31 at 23:28 +0100, Nicolas George wrote:
> hw (12024-01-31):
> > Well, I doubt it.
> 
> Well, doubt it all you want. In the meantime, we will continue to use
> it.
> 
> Did not read the rest, not interested in red herring nightmare
> scenarios.
> 

You'll figure it out eventually.  Meanwhile, you may be happier by
unscrubscribing from all mailing lists since you're not interested in
what people have to say.  In any case, I'm filtering all emails from
you right into trash folder now.

Re: Automatically installing GRUB on multiple drives

[hw]

On Wed, 2024-01-31 at 06:33 +0100, to...@tuxteam.de wrote:
> On Tue, Jan 30, 2024 at 09:47:35PM +0100, hw wrote:
> > On Mon, 2024-01-29 at 18:41 +0100, to...@tuxteam.de wrote:
> > > On Mon, Jan 29, 2024 at 05:52:38PM +0100, hw wrote:
> > > 
> > > [...]
> > > 
> > > > Ok in that case, hardware RAID is a requirement for machines with UEFI
> > > > BIOS since otherwise their reliability is insufficient.
> > > 
> > > The price you pay for hardware RAID is that you need a compatible 
> > > controller
> > > if you take your disks elsewhere (e.g. because your controller dies).
> > 
> > How often do you take the system disks from one machine to another,
> > and how often will the RAID controller fail?
> > 
> > > With (Linux) software RAID you just need another Linux...
> > 
> > How's that supposed to help?  The machine still won't boot if the disk
> > with the UEFI partition has failed.
> 
> We are talking about getting out of a catastrophic event. In such cases,
> booting is the smallest of problems: use your favourite rescue medium
> with a kernel which understands your RAID (and possibly other details
> of your storage setup, file systems, LUKS, whatever).

Try to do that with a remote machine.

> [...]
> 
> > Maybe the problem needs to be fixed in all the UEFI BIOSs.  I don't
> > think it'll happen, though.
> 
> This still makes sense if you want a hands-off recovery (think data
> centre far away). Still you won't recover from a broken motherboard.

It would make sense that all the UEFI BIOSs would be fixed so that
they do not create this problem in the first place like they
shouldn't.

You seem to forget the point that one reason for using redundant
storage, like some kind of RAID, to boot from, is that I don't want to
have booting issues, especially not with remote machines.

Unfortunately UEFI BIOSs make that difficult unless you use hardware
raid.

And I don't want to have that problem with local machines either
because it's a really nasty problem.  How do you even restore the UEFI
partition when the disk it's on has failed and you don't have a copy?

Re: Automatically installing GRUB on multiple drives

[hw]

On Tue, 2024-01-30 at 21:35 +0100, Nicolas George wrote:
> hw (12024-01-30):
> > Yes, and how much effort and how reliable is doing that?
> 
> Very little effort and probably more reliable than hardware RAID with
> closed-source hardware.

Well, I doubt it.  After all you need to copy a whole partition and
must make sure that it doesn't fail through distribution upgrades and
all kinds of possible changes and even when someone shuts down or
reboots the computer or pulls the plug while the copying is still in
progress.  You also must make sure that the boot manager is installed
on multiple disks.

And when you're going to do it?  When shutting the machine down?
Might not happen and when it does happen, maybe you don't want to wait
on it.

When rebooting it?  Perhaps you don't want to overwrite the copy at
that time, or perhaps it's too late then because there were software
updates before you rebooted and one of the disks failed when
rebooting.

Do you suggest to install backup batteries or capacitors to keep the
machine running until the copying process has completed when the power
goes out?

Or do you want to do it all manually at a time convenient for you?
What if you forgot to do it?


I'm not so silly that you could convince me that you can do it more
reliably than the hardware RAID does it whith a bunch of scripts you
put together yourself, especially not by implying that the hardware
raid which has been tested in many datacenters with who knows how many
hundreds of thousands of machines over many years uses closed source
software which has been maintained and therefore must be unreliable.

The lowest listed MTBF of hardware RAID is over 26 hours
(i. e. about 30 years) on [1].  Can you show that you can do it more
reliably with your bunch of scripts?


[1]: 
https://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/support/articles/07641/server-products/sasraid.html

Re: Automatically installing GRUB on multiple drives

[hw]

On Wed, 2024-01-31 at 15:16 +, Andy Smith wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> On Tue, Jan 30, 2024 at 09:50:23PM +0100, hw wrote:
> > On Mon, 2024-01-29 at 23:53 +, Andy Smith wrote:
> > > I think you should read it again until you find the part where it
> > > clearly states what the problem is with using MD RAID for this. If
> > > you still can't find that part, there is likely to be a problem I
> > > can't assist with.
> > 
> > That there may be a problem doesn't automatically mean that you need a
> > bunch of scripts.
> 
> This is getting quite tedious.
> 
> Multiple people have said that there is a concern that UEFI firmware
> might write to an ESP, which would invalidate the use of software
> RAID for the ESP.
> 
> Multiple people have suggested instead syncing ESP partitions in
> userland. If you're going to do that then you'll need a script to do
> it.
> 
> I don't understand what you find so difficult to grasp about this.

You kept only saying 'read the link'.  Well, read the link!  It points
out 4 choices and none of them says 'you need a bunch of scripts'.

> If it's that you have some other proposal for solving this, it would
> be helpful for you to say so

I already said my solution is using hardware raid or fixing the
problem in all the UEFI BIOSs.

I'd also say that the BIOS must never write to the storage, be it to
an UEFI partition or anywhere else.  But that's a different topic.

> [...]
> If your suggested solution is "use hardware RAID", no need to repeat
> that one though: I see you said it in a few other messages, and that
> suggestions has been received. Assume the conversation continues
> amongst people who don't like that suggestion.

Well, too late, I already said it again since you asked.  Do you have
a better solution?  It's ok not to like this solution, but do you have
a better one?

> Otherwise, I don't think anyone knows what you have spent several
> messages trying to say. All we got was, "you don't need scripts".

What do you expect when you keep repeating 'read the link'.

Re: chrony date months off

[hw]

On Wed, 2024-01-31 at 12:56 -0500, gene heskett wrote:
> [...]
> Dec 30 03:15:42 bpi51e5p chronyd[1936]: Could not add source 192.168.71.3
> Dec 30 03:15:42 bpi51e5p chronyd[1936]: No suitable source for initstepslew
> Dec 30 03:15:42 bpi51e5p chronyd[1936]: Could not add source 192.168.71.3
> Dec 30 03:15:44 bpi51e5p systemd[1]: chrony.service: New main PID 1936 
> does not exist or is a zombie.
> Dec 30 03:15:44 bpi51e5p systemd[1]: chrony.service: Failed with result 
> 'protocol'.

Perhaps uncomment one/some of the pool address(es) in its config to
allow chrony to find a suitable server.

Re: Can't list root directory

[hw]

On Wed, 2024-01-31 at 09:27 -0500, Gary Dale wrote:
> On 2024-01-30 15:54, hw wrote:
> > On Mon, 2024-01-29 at 11:42 -0500, Gary Dale wrote:
> > > I'm running Debian/Trixie on an AMD64 workstation. I've lost the ability
> > > to see the root directory even when I am logged in as root (su -).
> > > 
> > > This has been happening intermittently for several months. I initially
> > > thought it might be related to failing NVME drive that was part of a
> > > RAID1 array that is mounted as "/" but I replaced the device and the
> > > problem is still happening.
> > > [...]
> > What happens when you put the device you replaced back?
> > 
> How could putting a known-failing device back in help? The problem 
> existed before I replaced it and continues to exist after the replacement.

It sounded like you were able to list the root directory (at least
sometimes) before you did the replacement.  Manually failing the
device (perhaps after adding it back first) could make a difference.

I've seen such indefinite hangs only when an NFS share has become
unreachable after it had been mounted.  You could use clonezilla to
make a copy and then perhaps convert the file system to btrfs.

Do you still have the problem when you remove one of the NVME storage
things?  Perhaps you have the equivivalent of a bad SATA cable or the
mainboard doesn't like it when you access two of those at the same
time, or something like that.  Even simple network cables can behave
very strangely, and NVME may be a bit more complicated than that.

Running fsck on every boot to work around an issue like this is
certainly a bad idea.  Doesn't fsck report anything?  If it really
makes a difference in itself rather than creating some side effect
that leads to the root directory being readable, it should report
something.  Perhaps you need to increase its verbosity.

If there's no report then it would look like a side effect and raise
the question what side effect it might be.  Does fsck run before the
RAID has been brought up or after?  Is the RAID up when booting is
completed?  What does mdadm say about the device(s)?  Can you still
list the root directory when you manually fail either drive?  What
exactly are the circumstances under which you can and not list the
root directory?

You need to do some investigating and ask questions like those ...

Re: Debian/Xen on ARM: How to identify source of an unhandled SMC call during boot?

[hw]

On Wed, 2024-01-31 at 08:02 +0100, Paul Leiber wrote:
> Am 25.01.2024 um 22:28 schrieb Paul Leiber:
> > Dear Debian user list members,
> > 
> > I am trying to run network related stuff (Samba, Zabbix) on a Raspberry 
> > Pi 4B in a virtualized environment using Debian Bookworm and Xen. I am 
> > running into reproducible complete system crashes/reboots due to a Xen 
> > watchdog triggering under certain, seemingly strange conditions (the 

Raspberry Pis have a watchdog?

Maybe disable the watchdog and see what happens?

> > number of VLANs involved seems to play a role, running tcpdump on 
> > certain interfaces prevents this issue, ...). If you are interested in 
> > the long version, you can find it here [1].
> > 
> > Some people on xen-devel pointed out to me two unhandled SMC calls in 
> > the boot logs which could be the root of the problem. I am now trying to 
> > find out where these calls come from to get closer to the root cause. 
> > The suspected calls are the following ones:
> > 
> > (XEN) d0v0 Unhandled SMC/HVC: 0x8450
> > (XEN) d0v0 Unhandled SMC/HVC: 0x8600ff01
> > 
> > These calls happen during the Dom0 boot process, so it's something from 
> > inside Linux and nothing Xen related, I've been told. The current 
> > working hypothesis is that the calls are trying to find some module not 
> > emulated by Xen and are therefore failing, leading to Linux waiting for 
> > the reply, and subsequently to the Xen watchdog triggering and rebooting.
> > 
> >  From what I could find out in ARM documentation, the unhandled SMC 
> > calls probably have the following purpose:
> > 
> > 0x8450 = TRNG_VERSION, returns the implemented TRNG (True Random 
> > Number Generator) ABI version [2]
> > 0x8600ff01 = Call UID Query for Vendor Specific Hypervisor Service, 
> > Returns a unique identifier of the service provider [3]
> > 
> > The more likely cause is the second call to the address 0x8600ff01.
> > 
> > Now I simply have no idea how to find out where in the Linux boot 
> > process these calls are made. I tried poking into the Linux sources a 
> > bit, and I couldn't find an exact match for these call addresses, so I 
> > assume these addresses are assembled from different parts. There are 
> > some matches for "0x8600" and for "ff01", but I couldn't identify if 
> > these matches are relevant.
> > 
> > I tried to find out if strace could help, but from what I understand, 
> > this is related to commands coming from userspace, so I am not sure that 
> > strace helps during the boot process.
> > 
> > I'd appreciate it if somebody more knowledgeable would point me in the 
> > right direction. If more information is needed, I can provide it.

I would search for the message 'Unhandled SMC/HVC' itself, or even for
'Unhandled', not for the address.  The address is probably determined
at runtime and not hardcoded.

Do you get better results with qemu/kvm?  Xen is more like 'hmm' than
anything else.

Re: Can't list root directory

[hw]

On Mon, 2024-01-29 at 11:42 -0500, Gary Dale wrote:
> I'm running Debian/Trixie on an AMD64 workstation. I've lost the ability 
> to see the root directory even when I am logged in as root (su -).
> 
> This has been happening intermittently for several months. I initially 
> thought it might be related to failing NVME drive that was part of a 
> RAID1 array that is mounted as "/" but I replaced the device and the 
> problem is still happening.
> [...]

What happens when you put the device you replaced back?

Re: Automatically installing GRUB on multiple drives

[hw]

On Mon, 2024-01-29 at 23:53 +, Andy Smith wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> On Mon, Jan 29, 2024 at 05:28:56PM +0100, hw wrote:
> > On Sun, 2024-01-28 at 21:55 +, Andy Smith wrote:
> > > On Sun, Jan 28, 2024 at 09:09:17PM +0100, hw wrote:
> > > > On Sun, 2024-01-28 at 17:32 +, Andy Smith wrote:
> > > > > If someone DOES want a script option that solves that problem, a
> > > > > couple of actual working scripts were supplied in the link I gave to
> > > > > the earlier thread:
> > > > > 
> > > > > https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2020/11/msg00455.html
> > > > > https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2020/11/msg00458.html
> > > > 
> > > > Huh?  Isn't it simpler to use mdraid RAID1 to keep the UEFI partitions
> > > > in sync without extra scripts needed?
> > > 
> > > Could you read the first link above.
> > 
> > I did, and it doesn't explain why you would need a bunch of scripts.
> 
> I think you should read it again until you find the part where it
> clearly states what the problem is with using MD RAID for this. If
> you still can't find that part, there is likely to be a problem I
> can't assist with.

That there may be a problem doesn't automatically mean that you need a
bunch of scripts.

Re: Automatically installing GRUB on multiple drives

[hw]

On Mon, 2024-01-29 at 18:41 +0100, to...@tuxteam.de wrote:
> On Mon, Jan 29, 2024 at 05:52:38PM +0100, hw wrote:
> 
> [...]
> 
> > Ok in that case, hardware RAID is a requirement for machines with UEFI
> > BIOS since otherwise their reliability is insufficient.
> 
> The price you pay for hardware RAID is that you need a compatible controller
> if you take your disks elsewhere (e.g. because your controller dies).

How often do you take the system disks from one machine to another,
and how often will the RAID controller fail?

> With (Linux) software RAID you just need another Linux...

How's that supposed to help?  The machine still won't boot if the disk
with the UEFI partition has failed.  Look at Linux installers, like
the Debian installer or the Fedora installer.  Last time I used
either, none of them would automatically create or at least require
redundant UEFI partitions --- at least for instances when software
RAID is used --- to make it possible to boot when a disk has failed.
It's a very bad oversight.

Maybe the problem needs to be fixed in all the UEFI BIOSs.  I don't
think it'll happen, though.

Re: Automatically installing GRUB on multiple drives

[hw]

On Mon, 2024-01-29 at 18:00 +0100, Nicolas George wrote:
> hw (12024-01-29):
> > Ok in that case, hardware RAID is a requirement for machines with UEFI
> 
> That is not true, you can still put the RAID in a partition and keep the
> boot partitions in sync manually or with scripts.

Yes, and how much effort and how reliable is doing that?

I didn't say it can't be done.

Re: Changing The PSI Definition

[hw]

On Fri, 2024-01-26 at 07:25 -0500, Dan Ritter wrote:
> Greg Wooledge wrote: 
> > On Thu, Jan 25, 2024 at 07:32:38PM -0500, Thomas George wrote:
> > > The current PSI works perfectly but I don't like the pale green prompt.
> > > 
> > > Tried editing .bashrd , /ext/fprofile and /ext/bash.bashrc but no changes 
> > > to
> > > the PSI definition had any effect
> > 
> > You appear to be asking about the shell prompt.
> > 
> > In bash, the shell prompt is defined in the PS1 variable, which stands
> > for "Prompt String One (1)".  The last character is the numeral 1, not
> > the capital letter I.
> 
> Might be time for a new font. I like Inconsolata, but l1I!
> should never look similar, nor O0@ or S$. 

Maybe try Monospace, 'BPG Courier GPL' or 'BPG Courier S GPL'.
I'm finding the line spacing with Monospace more useful though, and it
seems better balanced and better readable than 'Source Code Pro'.

For proportional fonts Helvetica is awesome (the licence for it was
well worth it to me).

Monospace and Helvetica also go together very well.

Re: Automatically installing GRUB on multiple drives

[hw]

On Mon, 2024-01-29 at 14:45 +0100, Franco Martelli wrote:
> On 28/01/24 at 17:17, hw wrote:
> > On Fri, 2024-01-26 at 16:57 +0100, Nicolas George wrote:
> > > hw (12024-01-26):
> > > > How do you make the BIOS read the EFI partition when it's on mdadm
> > > > RAID?
> > > 
> > > I have not yet tested but my working hypothesis is that the firmware
> > > will just ignore the RAID and read the EFI partition: with the scheme I
> > > described, the GPT points to the EFI partition and the EFI partition
> > > just contains the data.
> > > 
> > > Of course, it only works with RAID1, where the data on disk is the data
> > > in RAID.
> > 
> > Ok if Andy and you are right, you could reasonably boot machines with
> > an UEFI BIOS when using mdadm RAID :)
> 
> There is a sort of HOWTO [1] published in the archLinux wiki [2] but I 
> don't advise it because there are many things that could go wrong.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> [1] https://outflux.net/blog/archives/2018/04/19/uefi-booting-and-raid1/
> [2] 
> https://wiki.archlinux.org/title/EFI_system_partition#ESP_on_software_RAID1

Ok in that case, hardware RAID is a requirement for machines with UEFI
BIOS since otherwise their reliability is insufficient.

I didn't plan on using hardware RAID for my next server, and now
things are getting way more complicated than they already are because
I can't just keep using the disks from my current one :(  Hmm ...

But I'm glad that I looked into this.

Re: Automatically installing GRUB on multiple drives

[hw]

On Sun, 2024-01-28 at 21:55 +, Andy Smith wrote:
> Hello,
> 
> On Sun, Jan 28, 2024 at 09:09:17PM +0100, hw wrote:
> > On Sun, 2024-01-28 at 17:32 +, Andy Smith wrote:
> > > If someone DOES want a script option that solves that problem, a
> > > couple of actual working scripts were supplied in the link I gave to
> > > the earlier thread:
> > > 
> > > https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2020/11/msg00455.html
> > > https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2020/11/msg00458.html
> > 
> > Huh?  Isn't it simpler to use mdraid RAID1 to keep the UEFI partitions
> > in sync without extra scripts needed?
> 
> Could you read the first link above.

I did, and it doesn't explain why you would need a bunch of scripts.

Re: Automatically installing GRUB on multiple drives

[hw]

On Sun, 2024-01-28 at 17:32 +, Andy Smith wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> Keeping all this context because I don't actually see how the
> response matches the context and so I might have missed something…
> 
> On Sun, Jan 28, 2024 at 11:54:05AM -0500, Dan Ritter wrote:
> > hw wrote: 
> > > How is btrfs going to deal with this problem when using RAID?  Require
> > > hardware RAID?
> > > 
> > > Having to add mdadm RAID to a setup that uses btrfs just to keep efi
> > > partitions in sync would suck.
> > 
> > You can add hooks to update-initramfs or update-grub.
> > 
> > To a first approximation:
> > 
> > firstbootpart = wwn-0x5006942feedbee1-part1
> > extrabootparts = wwn-0x5004269deafbead-part1\
> >  wwn-0x5001234adefabe-part1 \
> >  wwn-0x5005432faebeeda-part1
> > 
> > for eachpart in $extrabootparts ; \
> > do cp /dev/disk/by-id/$firstbootpart /dev/disk/by-id/$eachpart; done
> 
> I realise that the above is pseudocode, but I have some issues with
> it, namely:
> 
> a) I don't see what this has to do with btrfs, the subject of the
>message you are replying to. Then again, I also did not see what
>btrfs had to do with the thing that IT was replying to, so
>possibly I am very confused.
> 
> b) My best interpretation of your message is that it solves the "how
>to keep ESPs in sync" question, but if it is intended to do that
>then you may as well have just said "just keep the ESPs in sync",
>because what you wrote is literally something like:
> 
>cp /dev/disk/by-id/wwn-0x5002538d425560a4-part1 
> /dev/disk/by-id/wwn-0x5002538d425560b5-part1
> 
>which …is rather like a "now draw the rest of the owl" sort of
>response given that it doesn't literally work and most of the job
>is in reworking that line of pseudocode into something that will
>actually work.
> 
> If someone DOES want a script option that solves that problem, a
> couple of actual working scripts were supplied in the link I gave to
> the earlier thread:
> 
> https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2020/11/msg00455.html
> https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2020/11/msg00458.html

Huh?  Isn't it simpler to use mdraid RAID1 to keep the UEFI partitions
in sync without extra scripts needed?

(I don't like that option, but it seems like an option when you have
no hardware RAID.)

Re: Automatically installing GRUB on multiple drives

[hw]

On Sun, 2024-01-28 at 16:46 +, Andy Smith wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> On Sun, Jan 28, 2024 at 05:17:14PM +0100, hw wrote:
> > Ok if Andy and you are right, you could reasonably boot machines with
> > an UEFI BIOS when using mdadm RAID :)
> 
> I've been doing it for more than two decades, though not with UEFI.
> 
> > How is btrfs going to deal with this problem when using RAID?  Require
> > hardware RAID?
> > 
> > Having to add mdadm RAID to a setup that uses btrfs just to keep efi
> > partitions in sync would suck.
> 
> ESP have to be vfat so why are you bringing up btrfs?
> 
> If you want to use btrfs, use btrfs. UEFI firmware isn't going to
> care as long as your ESP is not inside that.

It's easy to boot from btrfs software RAID without further ado.  These
nasty and annoying UEFI partitions get in the way of that since they
are not kept in sync with each other when you have several without
further ado.

That easily leads to situations in which you can't boot after a disk
has failed despite you have RAID.  That is something that must not
happen; it defeats the RAID.  It's bad enough when you have access to
the machine and it's a total nightmare when not because you'll have to
somehow go there to fix this.  If the disk having the UEFI partition
has failed and there's no redundance that's at least sufficently in
sync, it's even worse.

Show me any installer for Linux distributions that handles this
sufficently without further ado.

When you don't use btrfs, you have either hardware RAID or
mdraid.  With harware RAID, the problem doesn't come up.  With mdadm
RAID, it isn't much better than with btrfs since without further ado,
you still don't have redundant UEFI partitions.  With btrfs and mdadm
RAID, it's basically worse because you have to deploy another variant
of software RAID in addition to the software built into btrfs.

So at least for boot disks, I'll go for hardware RAID whenever
possible, especially with btrfs, until this problem is fixed.  Or do
you have a better option?

Re: Data and hardware protection measures; was: rsync --delete vs rsync --delete-after

[hw]

On Fri, 2024-01-26 at 15:56 +, Michael Kjörling wrote:
> On 26 Jan 2024 16:11 +0100, from h...@adminart.net (hw):
> > I rather spend the money on new batteries (EUR 40 last time after 5
> > years) every couple years [...]

To comment myself, I think was 3 years, not 5, sorry.

> > The hardware is usually extremely difficult --- and may be impossible
> > --- to replace.
> 
> And let's not forget that you can _plan_ to perform the battery
> replacement for whenever that is convenient.

How do you know in advance when the battery will have failed?

> Which is quite the contrast to a lightning strike blowing out even
> _just_ the PSU and it needing replacement before you can even use
> the computer again (and you _hope_ that nothing more took a hit,
> which it probably did even if the computer _seems_ to be working
> fine).

It would also hit the display(s), the switches and through that
everything that's connected to the network, the server(s) ...  That
adds up to a lot of money.

> [...]
> It's also worth talking to your local electrician about installing an
> incoming-mains overvoltage protection for lightning protection. I
> won't quote prices because I had mine installed a good while ago and
> also did it together with some other electrical work, but I was
> surprised at how low the cost for that was, and I _know_ that it has
> saved me on at least one occasion.

Hm I thought it's expensive.  I'll ask when I get a chance.

> [...]
> > You can always tell with a good hardware RAID because it
> > will indicate on the trays which disk has failed and the controller
> > tells you.
> 
> Or you can label the physical disks. Whenever I replace a disk, I
> print a label with the WWN of the new disk and place it so that it is
> readable without removing any disks or cabling;

That doesn't exactly help when the failed disk has disappeared
altogether, as if it had been removed ;)

But then, you can go by the numbers of the disks you can still see.

And beware of SSDs; when they fail, they're usually entirely
inaccessible whereas you may be still able to resuce (some) data from
a spinning disk after it failed.

It's probably really bad with mainbaords that use M2 storage since
apparently, they seem to support only one (of the some type at least)
rather than two.  So you can't use those at all.  What's the point of
that?  ZFS cache maybe?

Re: Home UPS recommendations (Was Re: rsync --delete vs rsync --delete-after)

[hw]

On Fri, 2024-01-26 at 15:17 +, Andy Smith wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> On Fri, Jan 26, 2024 at 04:11:39PM +0100, hw wrote:
> > I've never had issues with any UPS due to self tests.  The batteries
> > need to be replaced when they are worn out.  How often that is
> > required depends on the UPS and the conditions it is working in,
> > usually every 3--5 years.
> 
> Out of interest what brand of UPS do you recommend for home use that
> has easily-replaceable batteries every 3–5 years? For a load of
> about 300W.

Generally I recommend APC because they work well (which is something
to be expected and shouldn't need to be pointed out), they can easily
be monitored with apcupsd and, very importantly, their batteries are
usually easily available so you can replace them without difficulty.

However, stay away from their cheap models as seen on this[1] picture
(Back UPS).  They work and you can replace the batteries yourself even
though you're not supposed to.  It's a minimum basic device.  It may
be on ok option if you're on a budget.  Their batteries last about 3
years.

I like the better models way better, like as on that[2] picture (Back
UPS pro).  I bought one a bit over 10 years ago (it even came with a
120k or so warranty for when a device protected by it would get
damaged) and replaced the batteries twice so far.  It's been working
without any issues ever since, and it'll probably work as long as new
batteries remain available.  So that's about 3 years battery life as
well.

Then it depends on a lot of things, primarily on the availability of
replacement batteries, then on how much you're willing to spend ---
since you can buy used ones because the only thing that goes bad is
the batteries, and you can find new old stock --- how much power you
need, if you want one that features a network card and if you want a
19" rack version or a standalone version.

Of course, their models change over time.  The 900VA smart UPS pro
delivers up to 540W, IIRC, and when it's overloaded it very annoyingly
beeps, but it continues to provide power.  I guess it shuts down when
it's overloaded and the main power fails, but I've never had that
happen yet.

For only 300W you go for this one:
https://www.apc.com/us/en/product/BR700G/apc-backups-pro-700va-420w-tower-120v-6x-nema-515r-outlets-avr-lcd-user-replaceable-battery/

Just keep in mind that you usually end up needing a UPS with higher
capacity than you planned for.  So it makes sense to check what the
batterie(s) cost and what the price difference between models with
lower and higher capacity is.  Some models take two or more batteries
while the version with lower capacity may take the same battery but
only one, making it overall so much cheaper that the model with more
capacity that requires two (or more) batteries may get too expensive.
But there may be a model with slightly more capacity that still takes
only one battery and you may be glad later that you spent a little
more money for more capacity.

Definitely stay away from UPSs from HP.  If you can reach someone from
HP at all, they will charge you before they would tell you what the
price of the batteries might be :(

Eaton probably makes good ones, too, but they're not common here, same
as another manufacturer the name of which I can't remember.  So I have
no experience with them.

Of course, you don't want to buy one from an unknown manufacturer with
no reputation, especially when it's a chinese one.  The batteries are
pretty generic, but for all you know, the manufacturer may have not
understood that pretty high currents can flow in an UPS and probably
has skimped on the wiring and/or other components to keep it cheap,
and it'll set your house on fire.  APC has understood that even in
their basic models (at least for the wiring; I can't tell for the
other components since I don't have enough knowledge about those).

After having said all the above, it's pretty simple because it comes
down to that, unless anything APC is difficult to come by where you
life, you can't go wrong with APC.


[1]: https://cdn-reichelt.de/bilder/web/xxl_ws/E910/APC_BX1400U_01.png
[2]:
https://oaziscomputer.hu/images/products/6934_apc-back-ups-pro-900-br900g-gr_1527776643.jpg

Re: rsync --delete vs rsync --delete-after

[hw]

On Fri, 2024-01-26 at 16:27 +, Michael Kjörling wrote:
> On 26 Jan 2024 16:39 +0100, from h...@adminart.net (hw):
> [...]
> > Having multiple generations of backups already increases the needed
> > storage space by a bit more than half.  That makes it already arguable
> > if it's better to make (multiple generations of) backups on a single
> > RAID or on N single disks.  Any of the disks can fail at any time.  If
> > you go with N == 2, a RAID (with multiple generations of backups on
> > it) can be better because when a disk fails, the RAID will very likely
> > survive and the non-RAID may not.
> 
> I'm not sure how you figure that.

It's simple: when using RAID1 with 2 disks, you double the physical
storage capacity needed.  When using 2 independent disks, you also
double the capacity.  In either case, when a disk fails, the RAID has
a chance to survive the failure while the single disks don't (ignoring
that you may be able to recover data from a failed disk).  So either
you don't loose a backup or you do loose one backup.

If you're lucky, you loose the outdated backup rather than the most
recent one.  If you made the backup on RAID, you don't loose the most
recent backup.  I like it better not to loose the most recent backup.

That's assuming that you have storage capacity for a single backup,
i. e. one backup on RAID vs. one most recent backup on one disk and on
older backup on the other disk.

Of course, when you have multiple generations of backups on each set
of disks, things get more complicated.  It also gets more complicated
when the volume you're making backups of doesn't fit on a single disk
...

> [...]
> > Trying to make things appear easier by pointing out that failed disks
> > can be replaced is not helpful.
> 
> It's a _backup_. _By definition_, a backup is only critical once the
> primary copy becomes inaccessible for some reason. Hence:

I have to disagree here.  The backup is always critical before you
have eliminated the possibility that the data can get lost.  Only when
you have done that, then you don't need a backup at all.

Re: Automatically installing GRUB on multiple drives

[hw]

On Fri, 2024-01-26 at 16:57 +0100, Nicolas George wrote:
> hw (12024-01-26):
> > How do you make the BIOS read the EFI partition when it's on mdadm
> > RAID?
> 
> I have not yet tested but my working hypothesis is that the firmware
> will just ignore the RAID and read the EFI partition: with the scheme I
> described, the GPT points to the EFI partition and the EFI partition
> just contains the data.
> 
> Of course, it only works with RAID1, where the data on disk is the data
> in RAID.

Ok if Andy and you are right, you could reasonably boot machines with
an UEFI BIOS when using mdadm RAID :)

How is btrfs going to deal with this problem when using RAID?  Require
hardware RAID?

Having to add mdadm RAID to a setup that uses btrfs just to keep efi
partitions in sync would suck.

Re: Automatically installing GRUB on multiple drives

[hw]

On Wed, 2024-01-24 at 21:05 +0100, Nicolas George wrote:
> [...]
> GPT
>  ├─EFI
>  └─RAID
> └─LVM (of course)
> 
> Now, thanks to you, I know I can do:
> 
> GPT   
>  ┊  RAID
>  └───┤
>  ├─EFI
>  └─LVM
> 
> It is rather ugly to have the same device be both a RAID with its
> superblock in the hole between GPT and first partition and the GPT in
> the hole before the RAID superblock, but it serves its purpose: the EFI
> partition is kept in sync over all devices.
> 
> It still requires setting the non-volatile variables, though.

How do you make the BIOS read the EFI partition when it's on mdadm
RAID?

It seems you have to have an EFI partition directly, outside sofware
RAID, on each storage device, and that indeed raises the question how
you keep them up to date so you can still boot when a disk has failed.
It's a nasty problem.

I use hardware RAID to avoid this problem ...

Re: rsync --delete vs rsync --delete-after

[hw]

On Thu, 2024-01-18 at 13:09 +, Michael Kjörling wrote:
> On 18 Jan 2024 13:26 +0100, from r...@h5.or.at (Ralph Aichinger):
> > As a home/SOHO user, I'd rather have a working backup every few hours
> > or every day than some RAID10 wonder
> 
> Definitely agree that a solid backup regimen (including regular
> automated backups; at least one off-site copy _at least_ of critical,
> hot data; and planning for the contingency that you need to restore
> that backup onto a brand new system without access to anything on your
> current system -- think "home burns down at night" or "burglar"
> scenario) is the _first_ step, and one that a great deal of people
> still fail at.
> 
> RAID is for uptime.

It's also for saving you from the hassle involved with loosing data
when a disk fails.

> If a week-long outage (to get replacement hardware and restore the
> most recent backup) and a day's worth of data loss is largely
> inconsequential, as quite frankly it likely is for most home users
> save for the cost of replacement hardware, that's a very different
> scenario from if that same outage costs $$€€¥¥ and could destroy
> your livelihood; and consequently the choices made _should_ likely
> be different.

That's assuming your time isn't worth anything and ignores whatever
the loss of data may cost you.  If that isn't relevant to you, you
don't backups, either.

> _Mirrored backups_ makes very little sense to me. If a storage device
> used for storage of backups fails prematurely, just toss it and get a
> new one and make a new backup. If the backup software goes haywire and
> starts overwriting everything with random garbage, having the garbage
> mirrored isn't going to help you. It's much better to have two
> independent backup targets and switching between them, and figuring
> the switching interval into your RPO. The only time when something
> like mirrored backups will help you is when you have only one backup
> set, the backup itself works fine, but a backup drive fails, _and_ the
> source fails before you've been able to make a new backup. That's a
> _very_ narrow scenario and easily solved by having two backup sets.

Having multiple generations of backups already increases the needed
storage space by a bit more than half.  That makes it already arguable
if it's better to make (multiple generations of) backups on a single
RAID or on N single disks.  Any of the disks can fail at any time.  If
you go with N == 2, a RAID (with multiple generations of backups on
it) can be better because when a disk fails, the RAID will very likely
survive and the non-RAID may not.

So for daily use, I'd ideally make multiple generations on RAID and
copy the latest generation to somewhere off-site, using either single
disks, or another RAID.

Having no hassle and no downtime at the production system and instead
having hassle and downtime off-site may be much more desirable than
having it the other way round.

Trying to make things appear easier by pointing out that failed disks
can be replaced is not helpful.  Replacing a disk in a RAID isn't any
more difficult (and can be much easier) than replacing a disk that
isn't in a RAID.

Re: rsync --delete vs rsync --delete-after

[hw]

On Thu, 2024-01-18 at 13:26 +0100, Ralph Aichinger wrote:
> Hello fellow Debian users,
> 
> On Thu, 2024-01-18 at 12:18 +0100, hw wrote:
> 
> > Always use an UPS.
> 
> 
> Here I have a somewhat contrarian view, I hope not to offend too much:

It's not offending, you merely have a different opinion.

> For countries with stable electricity supplies (like Austria where I
> live) having a small UPS might actually lead to more problems instead
> of less, unless you are putting a lot of effort into it. Very often
> have I had problems with UPSes, e.g. batteries dying, the UPS going
> into some self test mode and inadvertedly shutting down, etc.

I've never had issues with any UPS due to self tests.  The batteries
need to be replaced when they are worn out.  How often that is
required depends on the UPS and the conditions it is working in,
usually every 3--5 years.

I rather spend the money on new batteries (EUR 40 last time after 5
years) every couple years rather than spending thousands on replacing
the hardware when a power surge damages it which could have been
prevented by the UPS, and it's better to have the machines shut down
properly rather taking risks with potential data loss, regardless of
file systems and RAID setups in use.

The hardware is usually extremely difficult --- and may be impossible
--- to replace.  On top of that, noone pays for the time and effort
lost, and even someone did, I'd rather keep my hardware instead of
going to all the lengths required to replace it.  Loosing hours of
work due to power outages can also be an issue, and nobody pays for
that, either.

> I've had no external power outage in the last 5 or 10 years, but a UPS
> often needs at least one battery replacement during that time.

Outages are (still) rare here, but it suffices to trigger a fuse or
the main switch when some device shorts out, or someone working on the
solar power systems some of the neighbours have, causing crazy voltage
fluctuations, or a lightning strike somewhere in the vinicity or
whatever reason for an UPS to be required.

Way too many times than I could count my UPSs saved me and the
hardware from power supply problems, so I can't recommend to go
without one.  It doesn't matter how stable you think the power grid in
your country is.

> [...]
> Here I also doubt if this is a wise suggestion for the typical home
> or small office user. RAID leads to lots and lots of complexity, that
> is often not needed in a home setup.

RAID isn't as complicated as you think.  Hardware RAID is most simple,
followed by btrfs, followed by mdadm.

With hardware RAID I can instruct someone who has no idea what they're
doing to replace a failed disk remotely.  Same goes for btrfs and
mdadm, though it better be someone who isn't entirely clueless.

More importantly, the hassle involved in trying to recover from a
failed disk is ridiculously enormous without RAID and can get
expensive when hours of work were lost.  With RAID, you don't even
notice unless you keep an eye on it, and when a disk has failed, you
simply order a replacement and plug it in.

It's not like you could go to a hardware store around the corner and
get a new disk same or next day.  Even if you have a store around,
they will need to order the disk, and that can, these days, take weeks
or months or longer if it's a small store.  The only way to get a
replacement is ordering online, which requires that your computer
still works and that you have access to your passwords.

> I'd rather have a working backup setup with many independent copies
> before I even start thinking about RAID. Yes, disks can fail, but
> data loss often is due to user error and malware.

That is simply wrong.  RAID doesn't protect you from malware, and
nothing protects you from user error.  If you have data losses from
malware and/or user error more often than from failed disks, you're
doing something majorly wrong.

> RAID helps very little with the latter two causes of data loss. And
> all too often have I seen people mess up their complicated RAID
> setups, because they pulled the wrong disk when another one broke,
> or because they misinterpreted complicated error messages, creating
> unnecessary data loss out of user error by themselves.

This shows that you have no experience with RAID and is not an
argument.

Making backups is way more complicated than RAID.  You can way more
easily overwrite the wrong backup or misinterpret error messages of
your backup solution than you can pull the wrong disk from a RAID or
misinterpret error messages from your RAID.

How exactly would you pull the wrong disk from a RAID and thus cause
data loss?  Before you pull one, you make a backup.  When the disk has
been pulled, its contents remain unchanged and when you put it back
in, your data is still there --- plus you have the backup.  Sure it
can sometimes be difficult to tell which disk you need to replace, a

Re: Seeking a Terminal Emulator on Debian for "Passthrough" Printing

[hw]

On Thu, 2024-01-18 at 07:14 -0500, Greg Wooledge wrote:
> On Thu, Jan 18, 2024 at 12:28:58PM +0100, hw wrote:
> > Ok, and what's the problem?  That the server wants to print to the
> > printer?  That the application sends data to the "screen" (a terminal
> > emulator) instead of sending it to the printer?  That it is necessary
> > to see the printer data displayed in a terminal emulator?
> 
> See, now we're going in circles again.  I already *asked* the OP to
> explain the full picture, and they still only gave a partial answer.
> 
> It has been hinted to us that there are more layers in the problem
> than simply  Server <--> PC --> Printer.  We've been told that there
> is another layer of devices connected to the Printer, although this
> was never confirmed in the "big picture" answer.
> 
> Apparently the (retail sales??) application on the server needs to
> talk to all three layers of hardware: the PC (to display information
> on the screen), the Printer (to generate ink on paper), and the other
> devices beyond the Printer (reasons never given).  Communication with
> the devices beyond the Printer is apparently "bidirectional", meaning
> the server application needs to be able to query one of these devices
> and get information from it, which will cause application state to
> be altered, information to appear on the screen, etc.  Or maybe the
> devices beyond the Printer are capable of initiating an async data
> transfer to the server app?  Who knows.  It was never clearly stated.
> 
> Apparently the OP has a proprietary Windows terminal emulator + telnet
> client program (name never revealed?) that can already do everything,
> and they want a Debian program that can be used in place of it.
> 
> The problem for *us* is that we don't know what "everything" is (since
> the OP is incapable of explaining it all), which makes it very hard
> to find a program that can do "everything".

Hm ok, it's all too much guesswork then.

Re: Seeking a Terminal Emulator on Debian for "Passthrough" Printing

[hw]

On Wed, 2024-01-17 at 23:08 -0600, David Wright wrote:
> On Tue 16 Jan 2024 at 11:47:53 (+0100), hw wrote:
> > On Mon, 2024-01-15 at 20:32 +0100, to...@tuxteam.de wrote:
> > > On Mon, Jan 15, 2024 at 08:08:36PM +0100, hw wrote:
> > > > 
> > > > I don't understand why you involve a terminal emulator in the process.
> > > > Do you need to see the data that goes through the COM port displayed
> > > > in a terminal (like minicom)?
> > > 
> > > People interact with the (remote) application by means of the terminal
> > > emulator. Things get sent to/from the printer based on escape sequences
> > > initiated by the application.
> > 
> > Desktop sharing works fine with gnome these days.  Why not interact
> > with the application through that kinda locally?
> > 
> > > In the original (proprietary) application, the dispatching functionality
> > 
> > Dispatching functionality?
> > 
> > > is integrated in the terminal emulator, so it is understandable that
> > > pheoebus phoebus wants to keep that structure in the replacement.
> > 
> > I don't understand.
> > 
> > > I proposed splitting off the "mux" functionality from the terminal
> > > emulator functionality, but I fully understand that phoebus phoebus
> > > favours the more "conservative" approach.
> > > 
> > > By the way -- back then (TM), when terminals were real things, it was
> > > not unheard of that they came with an attached printer and some bar
> > > code scannery -- all handily multiplexed over the RS-232 (or something
> > > more monstruous), orchestrated via intricate escapery.
> > > 
> > > So the thing is just a natural evolution dating back to The Dinosaurs.
> > 
> > Well, I'd have to be quit a bit older to have experienced "real"
> > terminals like that.  I do remember printers accepting some escape
> > sequences to control their functionality, though.
> > 
> > If this application is running on such a terminal, maybe it's time to
> > find a more modern und thus more feasible replacement ...  An ancient
> > terminal may cease to work eventually and be very difficult to repair
> > once it does ...
> 
> It isn't running on a terminal: tomas wrote "back then (TM), when
> terminals were real things".
> 
> It's running on a Windows PC. Walk into many a shop and you can see
> the sort of setup, a PC and screen with a barcode scanner, keyboard,
> credit card reader, receipt printer, etc, all hanging off it. The
> server might be in an office, or perhaps at HQ or in the cloud.
> All perfectly normal. The import of the thread is Windows → Linux.

Ok, and what's the problem?  That the server wants to print to the
printer?  That the application sends data to the "screen" (a terminal
emulator) instead of sending it to the printer?  That it is necessary
to see the printer data displayed in a terminal emulator?

Re: rsync --delete vs rsync --delete-after

[hw]

On Wed, 2024-01-17 at 14:52 -0500, Default User wrote:
> On Wed, 2024-01-17 at 10:29 -0800, Kushal Kumaran wrote:
> > On Wed, Jan 17 2024 at 11:19:39 AM, Default User
> >  wrote:
> > > Hello!
> > > 
> > > Opinions, please.
> > > 
> > > I use rsync to copy my primary backup drive to a secondary backup
> > > drive
> > > , so that the secondary backup drive is theoretically always an
> > > exact
> > > copy of the primary backup drive.  
> > > 
> > > Here is the rsync command I use:
> > > 
> > > time sudo rsync -aAXHxvv --delete-after --numeric-ids --
> > > info=progress2,stats2,name2 --
> > > exclude={"/dev/*","/proc/*","/sys/*","/tmp/*","/run/*","/mnt/*","/m
> > > edia
> > > /*","/lost+found"} /media/default/MSD0001/ /media/default/MSD0002/
> > > 
> > > Question: 
> > > I use rsync --delete-after because it might seem to be "safer", so
> > > in
> > > case of a "glitch" of any kind, no file ever disappears from both
> > > the 
> > > source drive and the destination drive.  
> > > 
> > 
> > What do you mean by "glitch"?  Irrespective of whether you use --
> > delete
> > or --delete-after, deleted files on the source are deleted on the
> > destination once your rsync is complete (which is what I'd assume you
> > want when you want an exact copy).  I'd presume if you're ok with
> > that,
> > you are also fine with the deletion happening earlier in the rsync
> > process?
> > 
> > If you're concerned about accidental deletions, you should just not
> > use
> > any of the `--delete*` options (and give up on the exact copy
> > requirement).  You can look at alternatives to bare rsync that keep
> > track of multiple backed-up images (rsnapshot is a very simple
> > wrapper
> > over rsync that can do this, for example).
> > 
> > > However, I have read that using rsync --delete instead of rsync --
> > > delete-after is faster and uses less memory, and so is more
> > > efficient. 
> > > 
> > > Note: The current copy process time varies, but takes a long time -
> > > last night 131 minutes.
> > > :(
> > 
> > You can try using --delete for a couple of runs and see if it
> > actually
> > affects performance in your situation.
> > 
> > > 
> > > Disk space used is not currently an issue.
> > > 
> > > But, is rsync --delete AS SAFE as rsync --delete-after?
> > 
> > You'll need to define what safety means for you.
> > 
> 
> 
> 
> Hi, Kushal! 
> Thanks for replying. 
> 
> By "glitch", I mean anything that could interfere with the rsync copy
> process.  Possible causes: 
> - electrical outages, voltage spikes, voltage drops, "brownouts"
> - mechanical failure
> - earthquake
> - lightning
> - cat walking on keyboard
> - out of memory errors
> - out of disk space errors
> - PEBKAC errors
> - etc.
> 
> By safe, may I try to explain using a story? 
> 
> I once read that centuries ago, a king wanted his crown to be safe.  So
> four guards watched his crown at all times.  The guards were not
> allowed to take their eves off of the crown, even for a second, until
> the the their replacements, the next group of guards, all said "I see
> the crown". 
> 
> I am sorry if I can not come up with a better, technical explanation. 
> I use this story because it has always been meaningful to me, and seems
> to point to the essence of what I am getting at. 
> 
> I am writing as someone who has lost data more than once over time, for
> various reasons.  The loss has ranged from slightly annoying, to soul-
> rending catastrophe. It is NEVER appreciated. 
> 
> I do intend to try doing rsync --delete instead of rsync --delete
> after, to see if it "seems to work".  
> 
> But I just wanted to ask first ask, as it would seem better to hear
> someone say "How stupid are you? I can't believe you were going to do
> that!", than to have them say "How stupid are you? I can't believe you
> did that!" 
> 
> 

On Wed, 2024-01-17 at 14:52 -0500, Default User wrote:
> [...]
> By "glitch", I mean anything that could interfere with the rsync copy
> process.  Possible causes: 
> - electrical outages, voltage spikes, voltage drops, "brownouts"
> - mechanical failure
> - earthquake
> - lightning
> - cat walking on keyboard
> - out of memory errors
> - out of disk space errors
> - PEBKAC errors
> - etc.
> 
> By safe, may I try to explain using a story? 
> 
> I once read that centuries ago, a king wanted his crown to be safe.  So
> four guards watched his crown at all times.  The guards were not
> allowed to take their eves off of the crown, even for a second, until
> the the their replacements, the next group of guards, all said "I see
> the crown". 
> 
> I am sorry if I can not come up with a better, technical explanation. 
> I use this story because it has always been meaningful to me, and seems
> to point to the essence of what I am getting at. 
> 
> I am writing as someone who has lost data more than once over time, for
> various reasons.  The loss has ranged from slightly annoying, to soul-
> rending catastrophe. It is NEVER appreciated. 
> 
> I do intend to try 

Re: How to prevent rtkit from giving firefox higher priority?

[hw]

On Wed, 2024-01-17 at 07:26 -0500, Greg Wooledge wrote:
> On Wed, Jan 17, 2024 at 11:19:50AM +0100, hw wrote:
> > On Tue, 2024-01-16 at 08:41 -0500, Greg Wooledge wrote:
> > > On Tue, Jan 16, 2024 at 02:17:05PM +0100, hw wrote:
> > > > On Tue, 2024-01-16 at 08:03 -0500, Greg Wooledge wrote:
> > > > > On Tue, Jan 16, 2024 at 01:43:23PM +0100, hw wrote:
> > > > > > There's only a bunch of links in that directory, apparently all
> > > > > > pointing to files that don't exist.  Don't you have that?
> > > > > 
> > > > > unicorn:~$ ls -l /run/user/1000/systemd/units
> > > > > total 0
> > > > > lrwxrwxrwx 1 greg greg 32 Jan  4 10:33 
> > > > > invocation:at-spi-dbus-bus.service -> bfec6466520a4586b8c9205c235ccc92
> 
> > > You can access it just fine.  You just don't *understand* it.  (Neither
> > > do I.)
> > 
> > If I could access it, I could display the file.  If there is no file,
> > then these directory entries shouldn't exist.
> 
> I don't know how to make it any clearer.  THE SYMBOLIC LINK TARGET IS
> THE CONTENT.  They are storing this "Invocation ID" inside the symbolic
> link itself.
>
> This is what they chose to do.  I don't know WHY.  But you can clearly
> see what they're doing.

I can only see links to files that don't exist.

> > > I did a bit of Google searching, and I think this is something called
> > > an "InvocationID".
> > > 
> > > > > lrwxrwxrwx 1 greg greg 32 Jan  4 10:33 
> > > > > invocation:at-spi-dbus-bus.service -> bfec6466520a4586b8c9205c235ccc92
> > > 
> > > unicorn:~$ systemctl --user show -p InvocationID at-spi-dbus-bus.service
> > > InvocationID=bfec6466520a4586b8c9205c235ccc92
> > 
> > That is not useful:
> > 
> > 
> > systemctl --user show -p InvocationID at-spi-dbus-bus.service 
> > InvocationID=4bd113a0ec4c4f1eab6c51da8a43c1af
> > Invalid unit name "InvocationID=4bd113a0ec4c4f1eab6c51da8a43c1af" escaped 
> > as "InvocationID\x3d4bd113a0ec4c4f1eab6c51da8a43c1af" (maybe you should use 
> > systemd-escape?).
> > InvocationID=b6e84c2dd18b4d9f84436580113abaca
> > 
> > InvocationID=
> 
> What were you trying to do?  You took my command and mangled it.  You
> appended the *output* of my command as an *argument* to your command,
> substituting my 128-bit InvocationID with one of your own.  Why?

I copied your command and replaced the UUID with one that shows up in
/run/user/1000/systemd/units/ as a link target since it seems unlikely
that the same UUIDs you have are being used here..  At least that was
my intention.

Maybe your command was supposed to be 'systemctl --user show -p
InvocationID at-spi-dbus-bus.service'?  That shows only


InvocationID=b6e84c2dd18b4d9f84436580113abaca


which doesn't tell me anything.

> > Neither the user, nor root gets anything from this.  What is it
> > supposed to show?
> 
> You got the InvocationID of the at-spi-dbus-bus.service unit.  You
> also got an error message because of the mangled argument you passed,
> and an extra blank InvocationID= line as output from that same mangled
> argument, because it wasn't a running unit's name.
> 
> When I ran *my* command, I was simply demonstrating that the "systemctl"
> command, when asked for the InvocationID of a unit, gives the same
> 128-bit number that you can see with ls -l.
> 
> That's all.  Nothing more complicated than that.

How would that be useful?

> THE 128-BIT HEX NUMBER IS THE CONTENT.  IT IS THE DATA.  IT IS WHAT YOU
> SEEM TO BE LOOKING FOR.  THAT'S ALL THERE IS.  THERE IS NO ADDITIONAL
> PAYLOAD TO BE FOUND.
> 
> THE SYMBOLIC LINKS ARE *SUPPOSED* TO BE DANGLING.  THEY ARE NOT MEANT
> TO BE catTED.

If that is so, what is the purpose of useless directory entries?

> > > Maybe it's just a fancy PID?  I dunno, it's all very shrouded in mystery.
> > 
> > See, you're starting to understand how this is alarming :)
> 
> If you want to know what the InvocationID IS USED FOR, ask on the
> systemd mailing lists, because clearly we don't know.

That may be a good idea.

> If you want to know WHY they chose to store the InvocationID inside
> the target of a symbolic link, instead of as regular file content,
> ask on the systemd mailing lists, because clearly we don't know.
> 
> If you want to know why things that you've never seen before are
> alarming to you, ask your therapist, because... well, you get the picture,
> I hope.
> 

Unknown things never seen before are always alarming.  There may not
be any therapist able to help you if they aren't alarming to you.

Re: How to prevent rtkit from giving firefox higher priority?

[hw]

On Wed, 2024-01-17 at 12:25 +, Tixy wrote:
> On Wed, 2024-01-17 at 11:19 +0100, hw wrote:
> > On Tue, 2024-01-16 at 08:41 -0500, Greg Wooledge wrote:
> > > On Tue, Jan 16, 2024 at 02:17:05PM +0100, hw wrote:
> > > > On Tue, 2024-01-16 at 08:03 -0500, Greg Wooledge wrote:
> > > > > On Tue, Jan 16, 2024 at 01:43:23PM +0100, hw wrote:
> > > > > > There's only a bunch of links in that directory, apparently all
> > > > > > pointing to files that don't exist.  Don't you have that?
> > > > > 
> > > > > unicorn:~$ ls -l /run/user/1000/systemd/units
> > > > > total 0
> > > > > lrwxrwxrwx 1 greg greg 32 Jan  4 10:33 
> > > > > invocation:at-spi-dbus-bus.service -> bfec6466520a4586b8c9205c235ccc92
> > > > > [...]
> > > > > I guess that's normal, then.  It seems they're using the symlink 
> > > > > target
> > > > > as the actual *data*, not a link to another file that contains the 
> > > > > data.
> > > > > Why?  I have no idea.  I seem to recall one of the BSDs doing 
> > > > > something
> > > > > like this, but I never fully understood the rationale.  Something 
> > > > > about
> > > > > atomic operations, maybe?
> > > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > I consider it as alarming rather than normal when I can't access data
> > > > on my own computer.
> > > 
> > > You can access it just fine.  You just don't *understand* it.  (Neither
> > > do I.)
> > 
> > If I could access it, I could display the file.  If there is no file,
> > then these directory entries shouldn't exist.
> 
> Filesystem directories entries hold more than file and directory
> objects. As well as symbolic links, there's named FIFOs, named sockets,
> and devices.
> 
> E.g.
> 
> $ mkfifo a-fifo
> $ nc -lkU a-socket&
> $ ln -T target -s a-link
> 
> $ ls -l a-*
> prw-r--r-- 1 tixy tixy 0 Jan 17 12:07 a-fifo
> lrwxrwxrwx 1 tixy tixy 6 Jan 17 12:08 a-link -> target
> srwxr-xr-x 1 tixy tixy 0 Jan 17 12:07 a-socket
> 

Ok but all the files in /run/user/1000/systemd/units/ are
lrwxrwxrwx. (except . and ..).

Re: How to prevent rtkit from giving firefox higher priority?

[hw]

On Tue, 2024-01-16 at 10:19 -0600, John Hasler wrote:
> I  wrote:
> > You may be able to prevent Firefox from getting increased priority by
> > using polkit.
> 
> hw writes:
> > How would I do that?  All the freedektop stuff always has been a big
> > mystery, and polkit is part of it, or isn't it?
> 
> I don't know, but it at least has a man page and I think that this is
> the sort of stuff it is supposed to be for.  Worth investigating.

Cool, it has a man page :)  I checked the files/directories mentioned
in the page, and nothing seems to indicate that there is anything that
would allow firefox to increase its priority.

It might not need a special allowance because I have allowed the user
to set a nice level of up to -10 in /etc/security/limits.conf.  I
think that doesn't mean that firefox could get real time priority
though --- unless rtkit-daemon is somehow able to set any process that
asks for it to whatever priority the process asks for.

If rtkit-daemon can do that I wonder why the default configuration
is made to open such an enormous security backdoor.

Re: How to prevent rtkit from giving firefox higher priority?

[hw]

On Tue, 2024-01-16 at 08:41 -0500, Greg Wooledge wrote:
> On Tue, Jan 16, 2024 at 02:17:05PM +0100, hw wrote:
> > On Tue, 2024-01-16 at 08:03 -0500, Greg Wooledge wrote:
> > > On Tue, Jan 16, 2024 at 01:43:23PM +0100, hw wrote:
> > > > There's only a bunch of links in that directory, apparently all
> > > > pointing to files that don't exist.  Don't you have that?
> > > 
> > > unicorn:~$ ls -l /run/user/1000/systemd/units
> > > total 0
> > > lrwxrwxrwx 1 greg greg 32 Jan  4 10:33 invocation:at-spi-dbus-bus.service 
> > > -> bfec6466520a4586b8c9205c235ccc92
> > > [...]
> > > I guess that's normal, then.  It seems they're using the symlink target
> > > as the actual *data*, not a link to another file that contains the data.
> > > Why?  I have no idea.  I seem to recall one of the BSDs doing something
> > > like this, but I never fully understood the rationale.  Something about
> > > atomic operations, maybe?
> > > 
> > 
> > I consider it as alarming rather than normal when I can't access data
> > on my own computer.
> 
> You can access it just fine.  You just don't *understand* it.  (Neither
> do I.)

If I could access it, I could display the file.  If there is no file,
then these directory entries shouldn't exist.

> > And I do want to know what this unit file for firefox contains and
> > does and how it is being brought about.
> 
> If it's a symlink whose name begins with "invocation:" and whose target
> is a 32-hex-digit (128-bit) value, like the one shown above, then
> you are seeing everything there is to see.  I don't know what the 128-bit
> number is used for, but that number *is* the data.  Of that, I'm certain.
> 
> I did a bit of Google searching, and I think this is something called
> an "InvocationID".
> 
> > > lrwxrwxrwx 1 greg greg 32 Jan  4 10:33 invocation:at-spi-dbus-bus.service 
> > > -> bfec6466520a4586b8c9205c235ccc92
> 
> unicorn:~$ systemctl --user show -p InvocationID at-spi-dbus-bus.service
> InvocationID=bfec6466520a4586b8c9205c235ccc92

That is not useful:


systemctl --user show -p InvocationID at-spi-dbus-bus.service 
InvocationID=4bd113a0ec4c4f1eab6c51da8a43c1af
Invalid unit name "InvocationID=4bd113a0ec4c4f1eab6c51da8a43c1af" escaped as 
"InvocationID\x3d4bd113a0ec4c4f1eab6c51da8a43c1af" (maybe you should use 
systemd-escape?).
InvocationID=b6e84c2dd18b4d9f84436580113abaca

InvocationID=


Neither the user, nor root gets anything from this.  What is it
supposed to show?

> <https://sleeplessbeastie.eu/2022/07/01/how-to-display-systemd-journal-for-specific-service-since-it-started/>
> describes this as "a unique 128-bit ID identifying each runtime cycle
> of the unit".
> 
> There is also a man page systemd-id128(1) ("man systemd-id128") but
> it doesn't describe things in a way I can currently understand. It
> seems to reference another page sd-id128(3) which I do not have, but
> which I can find online at
> <https://manpages.debian.org/bookworm/libsystemd-dev/sd-id128.3.en.html>

It indicates that these numbers are just UUIDs with the dashes
omitted.  Apparently they aren't called UUIDs to make things more
complicated and/or to hide something.

UUIDs are good as unique identifiers and not good for being data
themselves.

> ... which, OK, that's pretty boring.  What I cannot find anywhere is
> a basic explanation of *what this ID is used for*.
> 
> Maybe it's just a fancy PID?  I dunno, it's all very shrouded in mystery.

See, you're starting to understand how this is alarming :)

I'll try to find out more but I don't have time for now ...

Re: /mnt usage

[hw]

On Mon, 2024-01-15 at 21:41 -0800, David Christensen wrote:
> On 1/15/24 20:05, David Wright wrote:
>  > And I've never created any mount point under /mnt. For a one time
>  > copy, /mnt is handy; always there, I don't have to mkdir at all.
> 
> 
> What about when you need multiple temporary mount points?

I create subdirectories under /mnt as needed.

> What about when you have an portable backup drive that you connect once 
> a week?  And the drive is encrypted?  And your backup system wants to 
> know where?

See above :)

Also, see https://refspecs.linuxfoundation.org/FHS_3.0/fhs-3.0.pdf

It's left to the administrator to decide how temporary stuff is with
/mnt.  I use /srv for stuff that is being served by the particular
system.

/tmp is volatile nowadays and not temporary.  That's particularly
braindead when you want Libreoffice to be able to recover files after
a crash, which, by default, autosaves in /tmp.

Re: How to prevent rtkit from giving firefox higher priority?

[hw]

On Tue, 2024-01-16 at 14:17 +0100, hw wrote:
> On Tue, 2024-01-16 at 08:03 -0500, Greg Wooledge wrote:
> > On Tue, Jan 16, 2024 at 01:43:23PM +0100, hw wrote:
> > > There's only a bunch of links in that directory, apparently all
> > > pointing to files that don't exist.  Don't you have that?
> > 
> > unicorn:~$ ls -l /run/user/1000/systemd/units
> > total 0
> > lrwxrwxrwx 1 greg greg 32 Jan  4 10:33 invocation:at-spi-dbus-bus.service 
> > -> bfec6466520a4586b8c9205c235ccc92
> > [...]
> > I guess that's normal, then.  It seems they're using the symlink target
> > as the actual *data*, not a link to another file that contains the data.
> > Why?  I have no idea.  I seem to recall one of the BSDs doing something
> > like this, but I never fully understood the rationale.  Something about
> > atomic operations, maybe?
> > 
> 
> I consider it as alarming rather than normal when I can't access data
> on my own computer.
> 
> And I do want to know what this unit file for firefox contains and
> does and how it is being brought about.
> 

Hm, ok, this seems to go to
'/usr/lib/systemd/user/app-firefox-.scope.d/99-cgroupify.conf'.

What the hell is cgroupify?  It seems to be yet another undocumented
thing coming from the freedesktop crap.

I still don't know what's with these non-existing files, though.

Re: How to prevent rtkit from giving firefox higher priority?

[hw]

On Tue, 2024-01-16 at 08:03 -0500, Greg Wooledge wrote:
> On Tue, Jan 16, 2024 at 01:43:23PM +0100, hw wrote:
> > There's only a bunch of links in that directory, apparently all
> > pointing to files that don't exist.  Don't you have that?
> 
> unicorn:~$ ls -l /run/user/1000/systemd/units
> total 0
> lrwxrwxrwx 1 greg greg 32 Jan  4 10:33 invocation:at-spi-dbus-bus.service -> 
> bfec6466520a4586b8c9205c235ccc92
> [...]
> I guess that's normal, then.  It seems they're using the symlink target
> as the actual *data*, not a link to another file that contains the data.
> Why?  I have no idea.  I seem to recall one of the BSDs doing something
> like this, but I never fully understood the rationale.  Something about
> atomic operations, maybe?
> 

I consider it as alarming rather than normal when I can't access data
on my own computer.

And I do want to know what this unit file for firefox contains and
does and how it is being brought about.

Re: How to prevent rtkit from giving firefox higher priority?

[hw]

On Tue, 2024-01-16 at 12:15 +, debian-u...@howorth.org.uk wrote:
> hw  wrote:
> > On Tue, 2024-01-16 at 11:27 +0100, Arno Lehmann wrote:
> > > I don't know anything about rtkit, but I may be able to parse
> > > English :-)
> > > 
> > > Am 16.01.2024 um 10:42 schrieb hw:
> > > ...  
> > > > The messages in the journal are actually weird:
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > rtkit-daemon[132284]: Successfully made thread 145442 of process
> > > > 145185 (/usr/lib64/firefox/firefox) owned by '1000' RT at
> > > > priority 10.
> > > > 
> > > > rtkit-daemon[132284]: Successfully made thread 2534 of process
> > > > 2507 (/usr/bin/gnome-shell) owned by '1000' RT at priority 20.
> > > > rtkit-daemon[132284]: Successfully made thread 2534 of process
> > > > 2507 (/usr/bin/gnome-shell) owned by '1000' high priority at nice
> > > > level 0. rtkit-daemon[132284]: Successfully made thread 2534 of
> > > > process 2507 (/usr/bin/gnome-shell) owned by '1000' RT at
> > > > priority 20. rtkit-daemon[132284]: Successfully made thread 2534
> > > > of process 2507 (/usr/bin/gnome-shell) owned by '1000' high
> > > > priority at nice level 0.
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > It says 'made owned by'.  Does user 1000 not own the process to
> > > > begin with?  Which user owned it before?  Or what is that
> > > > supposed to mean?  
> > > 
> > > What it tries to say is probably "made (thread ... owned by 1000)
> > > high priority".  
> > 
> > It says 'made thread ... (at nice level 0) owned by 1000'.  This is
> > inconclusive at best: The thread is obviously _at_ some nice level or
> > _at_ some priority and was made owned by 1000.
> 
> Well no it doesn't. You've changed the order of the words and that
> changes the meaning.
>  
> > If it had changed the priority it should say that, but it doesn't.
> 
> There's a rather unwieldy noun phrase
> "thread 2534 of process 2507 (/usr/bin/gnome-shell) owned by '1000'"
> which identifies a particular thread. Let's call that THREAD.
> 
> Then what the log says is:
> 
> rtkit-daemon[132284]: Successfully made THREAD RT at priority 20.
> rtkit-daemon[132284]: Successfully made THREAD high priority at nice
> level 0. 
> rtkit-daemon[132284]: Successfully made THREAD RT at priority 20.
> rtkit-daemon[132284]: Successfully made THREAD high priority at nice
> level 0.
> 
> So the log is telling you something about changes to the priority and
> real-time nature of that particular THREAD. I've no idea what they
> actually mean.

Yes, it finally occured to me that it's supposed to mean 'made RT'
when I looked at the journal again.  RT probably means real time, and
there seems to be a distinction between real time and nice.  However,
this is not a real time system, so real time is basically meaningless.

Still, how do I prevent rtkit-daemon and firefox from giving it(self)
higher priority?

Re: How to prevent rtkit from giving firefox higher priority?

[hw]

On Tue, 2024-01-16 at 07:05 -0500, Greg Wooledge wrote:
> On Tue, Jan 16, 2024 at 11:27:43AM +0100, hw wrote:
> > systemd[2241]: Started cgroupify@app-gnome-firefox-152280.scope.service.
> > systemd[2241]: Started app-gnome-firefox-152280.scope - Application 
> > launched by gnome-shell.
> > 
> > 
> > in the journal.  That service is a file that doesn't seem to exist,
> > and I can't see its contents:
> > 
> > 
> > ls -la 
> > /run/user/1000/systemd/units/invocation\:app-gnome-firefox-152280.scope 
> > lrwxrwxrwx. 1 ... ... 32 Jan 16 10:47 
> > /run/user/1000/systemd/units/invocation:app-gnome-firefox-152280.scope -> 
> > 47228f6ad8054d29a0d20c5517b76757
> > 
> > 
> > A file 47228f6ad8054d29a0d20c5517b76757 is not present where the link
> > points to.  What's with that?
> 
> See, this is why we ask people to include their SHELL PROMPT along with
> the command they type.  The shell prompt would most likely contain
> a "$" character or a "#" character, which would tell us who you were
> when you ran this command.
> 
> I'm betting you ran this as root, and this is why you can't see the
> contents underneath /run/user/1000.
> 
> Only user 1000 can see that.

Good point.  I tried it both as root and as user 1000, and both can
not display the file and the listing shows that the file the link
points to does not exist as either user.

There's only a bunch of links in that directory, apparently all
pointing to files that don't exist.  Don't you have that?

Re: How to prevent rtkit from giving firefox higher priority?

[hw]

On Tue, 2024-01-16 at 11:27 +0100, Arno Lehmann wrote:
> I don't know anything about rtkit, but I may be able to parse English :-)
> 
> Am 16.01.2024 um 10:42 schrieb hw:
> ...
> > The messages in the journal are actually weird:
> > 
> > 
> > rtkit-daemon[132284]: Successfully made thread 145442 of process 145185 
> > (/usr/lib64/firefox/firefox) owned by '1000' RT at priority 10.
> > 
> > rtkit-daemon[132284]: Successfully made thread 2534 of process 2507 
> > (/usr/bin/gnome-shell) owned by '1000' RT at priority 20.
> > rtkit-daemon[132284]: Successfully made thread 2534 of process 2507 
> > (/usr/bin/gnome-shell) owned by '1000' high priority at nice level 0.
> > rtkit-daemon[132284]: Successfully made thread 2534 of process 2507 
> > (/usr/bin/gnome-shell) owned by '1000' RT at priority 20.
> > rtkit-daemon[132284]: Successfully made thread 2534 of process 2507 
> > (/usr/bin/gnome-shell) owned by '1000' high priority at nice level 0.
> > 
> > 
> > It says 'made owned by'.  Does user 1000 not own the process to begin
> > with?  Which user owned it before?  Or what is that supposed to mean?
> 
> What it tries to say is probably "made (thread ... owned by 1000) high 
> priority".

It says 'made thread ... (at nice level 0) owned by 1000'.  This is
inconclusive at best: The thread is obviously _at_ some nice level or
_at_ some priority and was made owned by 1000.

If it had changed the priority it should say that, but it doesn't.

Re: Seeking a Terminal Emulator on Debian for "Passthrough" Printing

[hw]

On Mon, 2024-01-15 at 20:32 +0100, to...@tuxteam.de wrote:
> On Mon, Jan 15, 2024 at 08:08:36PM +0100, hw wrote:
> > Hi,
> > 
> > I don't understand why you involve a terminal emulator in the process.
> > Do you need to see the data that goes through the COM port displayed
> > in a terminal (like minicom)?
> 
> People interact with the (remote) application by means of the terminal
> emulator. Things get sent to/from the printer based on escape sequences
> initiated by the application.

Desktop sharing works fine with gnome these days.  Why not interact
with the application through that kinda locally?

> In the original (proprietary) application, the dispatching functionality

Dispatching functionality?

> is integrated in the terminal emulator, so it is understandable that
> pheoebus phoebus wants to keep that structure in the replacement.

I don't understand.

> I proposed splitting off the "mux" functionality from the terminal
> emulator functionality, but I fully understand that phoebus phoebus
> favours the more "conservative" approach.
> 
> By the way -- back then (TM), when terminals were real things, it was
> not unheard of that they came with an attached printer and some bar
> code scannery -- all handily multiplexed over the RS-232 (or something
> more monstruous), orchestrated via intricate escapery.
> 
> So the thing is just a natural evolution dating back to The Dinosaurs.

Well, I'd have to be quit a bit older to have experienced "real"
terminals like that.  I do remember printers accepting some escape
sequences to control their functionality, though.

If this application is running on such a terminal, maybe it's time to
find a more modern und thus more feasible replacement ...  An ancient
terminal may cease to work eventually and be very difficult to repair
once it does ...

Re: How to prevent rtkit from giving firefox higher priority?

[hw]

On Tue, 2024-01-16 at 06:52 +0100, to...@tuxteam.de wrote:
> On Mon, Jan 15, 2024 at 09:37:34PM +0100, hw wrote:
> [...]
> > And it turned out that it's apparently not rtkit-daemon but firefox
> > itself that makes it assume a higher priority.
> 
> Firefox itself can't (unless it is started with extra capabilities
> (CAP_SYS_NICE,I think). Thus the roundabout via DBus and (possibly)
> rtkit.

There are two scripts being executed that end up starting the firefox
binary.  None of them seem to be doing anything to make it so that
firefox could assume higher priority.

After that, there is


systemd[2241]: Started cgroupify@app-gnome-firefox-152280.scope.service.
systemd[2241]: Started app-gnome-firefox-152280.scope - Application launched by 
gnome-shell.


in the journal.  That service is a file that doesn't seem to exist,
and I can't see its contents:


ls -la /run/user/1000/systemd/units/invocation\:app-gnome-firefox-152280.scope 
lrwxrwxrwx. 1 ... ... 32 Jan 16 10:47 
/run/user/1000/systemd/units/invocation:app-gnome-firefox-152280.scope -> 
47228f6ad8054d29a0d20c5517b76757


A file 47228f6ad8054d29a0d20c5517b76757 is not present where the link
points to.  What's with that?

> > > [2] Phew. No DBus around here. Another bullet dodged :-D
> > 
> > Aren't there going to be lots of problems with things not working when
> > you don't have dbus?
> 
> Heh. But they are the known knowns. The only real limitation
> actually is no Bluetooth, because Bluez insists on a brain
> dead architecture which replaces plain old lib interface with
> DBus calls.
> 
> The others... well. No "Desktop Environment": duh, I don't enjoy
> those. Pulseaudio and Systemd don't want to play with me -- I don't
> want to play with them either, not on my daily driver. The browser
> has gone gaga and *wants* Pulseaudio: there's apulse for that
> (thanks, Rinat Ibragimov!).

Well, xorg is not longer maintained, and there is no version of fvwm
that would work with wayland.  That only leaves either KDE, Gnome or
sway.  I don't get along with tiling window managers though tiling
with fvwm was actually great.  You get the best of worlds with that.

Someone needs to make a fvwm version for wayland so we can have a
decent window manager again, and all the other software needs to be
improved so it doesn't have all these dependencies that don't even let
you do the most basic things like adjusting the font size.

> All I learn about those is when trying to help others keep their
> system afloat (yes, for someone coming from the Dark Side and
> not wanting to tinker, something like Gnome or Mate does make
> sense).

Well, yes, when software doesn't do what it is supposed to do, that
means it's not working right.  Give it a little time and sofware will
only do what /it/ wants and nothing else :(  We'll all be forced to go
braindead then, or have to escape this planet.

Re: How to prevent rtkit from giving firefox higher priority?

[hw]

On Mon, 2024-01-15 at 15:24 -0600, John Hasler wrote:
> You may be able to prevent Firefox from getting increased priority by
> using polkit.

How would I do that?  All the freedektop stuff always has been a big
mystery, and polkit is part of it, or isn't it?

Re: How to prevent rtkit from giving firefox higher priority?

[hw]

On Mon, 2024-01-15 at 21:02 +0100, to...@tuxteam.de wrote:
> > [...]
> > I have --- at least temporarily --- disabled rtkit-daemon by masking
> > the service and renaming
> > /usr/share/dbus-1/system-services/org.freedesktop.RealtimeKit1.service
> > so dbus doesn't try to start it anymore.
> > 
> > I've restarted firefox and am still seeing processes with higher
> > priority in htop (labled as /usr/lib64/firefox/firefox).  I've checked
> > with ps that rtkit-daemon is not running.
> 
> Interesting. All of them 20 here, i.e. normal. But my setup isn't
> normal, mind you :)

Mine isn't either in that I have allowed myself to run things at
higher priority when I tried to get better FPS rates for a game I was
playing.

I wonder if you're seeing the same with firefox when you allow higher
priority, too.  Otherwise I don't see how firefox or any other user
process should be able to do it (without rtkit).

Still it seems unusual that firefox does something it usually can't
do.  Who would go to the lengths of implementing a feature that nobody
uses.

The messages in the journal are actually weird:


rtkit-daemon[132284]: Successfully made thread 145442 of process 145185 
(/usr/lib64/firefox/firefox) owned by '1000' RT at priority 10.

rtkit-daemon[132284]: Successfully made thread 2534 of process 2507 
(/usr/bin/gnome-shell) owned by '1000' RT at priority 20.
rtkit-daemon[132284]: Successfully made thread 2534 of process 2507 
(/usr/bin/gnome-shell) owned by '1000' high priority at nice level 0.
rtkit-daemon[132284]: Successfully made thread 2534 of process 2507 
(/usr/bin/gnome-shell) owned by '1000' RT at priority 20.
rtkit-daemon[132284]: Successfully made thread 2534 of process 2507 
(/usr/bin/gnome-shell) owned by '1000' high priority at nice level 0.


It says 'made owned by'.  Does user 1000 not own the process to begin
with?  Which user owned it before?  Or what is that supposed to mean?

Eventually it will run into a limit:


rtkit-daemon[1121]: Failed to look up client: Device or resource busy
rtkit-daemon[1121]: Warning: Reached maximum concurrent process limit for user 
'1000', denying request.
J


Will firefox will make its processes higher priority despite the limit
is reached since it does it without rtkit?

Re: How to prevent rtkit from giving firefox higher priority?

[hw]

On Mon, 2024-01-15 at 20:21 +0100, to...@tuxteam.de wrote:
> On Mon, Jan 15, 2024 at 07:38:27PM +0100, hw wrote:
> > Hi,
> > 
> > I'm seeing in the journal (and in htop) that rtkit-daemon gives (has
> > given) a ton of firefox processes increased priority.
> > 
> > Of course, having tons of web browser processes running at increased
> > priority is like one of the last things I would want.
> 
> It's the ad industry. It won't settle for less than real time access
> to your eyeballs ;-P
> 
> Sarcasm [1] aside, the idea was possibly to enhance your videoconf
> experience.
> 
> As far as I understand, rtkit gets told by apps over DBus [2]
> "hey, I'm important. Gimme some real-time prio".
> 
> No idea where its config is, but there is an admin front end
> to it called rtkitctl.

It doesn't have any configuration other through command line
arguments.

> That said, it is Poetteringware, so it should come with a decent
> man page.

It doesn't have a man page.

> > How do I prevent this from happening?
> 
> Tell us when you find out. I always enjoy stories from the deep
> end of the pool :-)
> 
> > And why is there no control whatsoever about which processes can get
> > higher priority?  This is not an acceptable way to do such things.
> 
> There should, yes.
> 
> > Is there a better way then disabling/removing rtkit-daemon?  And how
> > could I remove/disable it?
> 
> Which package does it come with?

Well, I don't remove it because it can be useful.  I only want to
prevent it from doing stuff I don't want it to do.  That ability goes
more and more down the drain :(

And it turned out that it's apparently not rtkit-daemon but firefox
itself that makes it assume a higher priority.

> Cheers
> 
> [1] It always feels queasy when sarcasm and reality are so
>close together.
> 
> [2] Phew. No DBus around here. Another bullet dodged :-D

Aren't there going to be lots of problems with things not working when
you don't have dbus?

Re: How to prevent rtkit from giving firefox higher priority?

[hw]

On Mon, 2024-01-15 at 19:38 +0100, hw wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> I'm seeing in the journal (and in htop) that rtkit-daemon gives (has
> given) a ton of firefox processes increased priority.
> 
> Of course, having tons of web browser processes running at increased
> priority is like one of the last things I would want.
> 
> How do I prevent this from happening?
> 
> 
> And why is there no control whatsoever about which processes can get
> higher priority?  This is not an acceptable way to do such things.
> 
> Is there a better way then disabling/removing rtkit-daemon?  And how
> could I remove/disable it?
> 

PS:

I have --- at least temporarily --- disabled rtkit-daemon by masking
the service and renaming
/usr/share/dbus-1/system-services/org.freedesktop.RealtimeKit1.service
so dbus doesn't try to start it anymore.

I've restarted firefox and am still seeing processes with higher
priority in htop (labled as /usr/lib64/firefox/firefox).  I've checked
with ps that rtkit-daemon is not running.

How can firefox assume a higher priority, and how do I prevent these
processes from assuming higher priority?

Re: Seeking a Terminal Emulator on Debian for "Passthrough" Printing

[hw]

Hi,

I don't understand why you involve a terminal emulator in the process.
Do you need to see the data that goes through the COM port displayed
in a terminal (like minicom)?

I do not understand what you are trying to do at all.  Are you trying
to print to a remote printer that has a serial port?  For that,
perhaps you could use a printserver with a serial port (if you can
find one) or a printserver and an adapter from parallel to serial.

If you're trying to create a two-way communication between a remote
server and a remote client, with the client sending and receiving the
data through its COM port (for some weird reason), you could do that
over ethernet, using your own protocol or an existing one (maybe even
xmpp).

Unfortunately, COM ports have become quite rare :(


On Sat, 2024-01-13 at 00:50 +, phoebus phoebus wrote:
> Hello,
> 
> > > Suggestion:  Make another description of the challenge.
> > > 
> > > Describe it as a travelling route.  Spend effort on telling
> > > what the endpoints were and are.
> 
> 
> Our current starting point as being a third-party terminal emulator provided 
> by a licensed company. This emulator runs on an outdated version of Windows 
> and older Wyse versions and supports only the Telnet protocol, limiting our 
> ability to establish secure connections.
> 
> Now, our mandatory choice, if no other alternative emerges is to upgrade our 
> infrastructure by transitioning to newer Wyse clients equipped with more 
> recent versions of Windows and migrating to the commercial emulator from the 
> same company (or another) which supports the SSH protocol and Passthrough 
> Printing. We aim to migrate to an open-source terminal emulator that supports 
> the Passthrough Printing, thereby offering improved security and this remains 
> our preferred path.
> 
> Currently, PuTTY is an option but its current version has limitations that 
> make it insufficient for our operational use.
> We have conducted research in our quest to find such an open-source emulator 
> with full Passthrough Printing, but thus far, we have been unable to identify 
> one that fully meets our needs.
> 
> Best Regards,
> Thierry
> 

How to prevent rtkit from giving firefox higher priority?

[hw]

Hi,

I'm seeing in the journal (and in htop) that rtkit-daemon gives (has
given) a ton of firefox processes increased priority.

Of course, having tons of web browser processes running at increased
priority is like one of the last things I would want.

How do I prevent this from happening?


And why is there no control whatsoever about which processes can get
higher priority?  This is not an acceptable way to do such things.

Is there a better way then disabling/removing rtkit-daemon?  And how
could I remove/disable it?

Re: Alpine/Gmail/Imap expert needed.

[hw]

On Mon, 2023-11-27 at 19:22 +0100, to...@tuxteam.de wrote:
> On Mon, Nov 27, 2023 at 06:57:51PM +0100, hw wrote:
> > On Sun, 2023-11-26 at 20:54 -0500, Karen Lewellen wrote:
> > > Your surprise is surprising given you are living no one's life but your 
> > > own.
> > > as they say walk a mile in another person's shoes before you decide you 
> > > know what solutions are possible for them.
> > 
> > In that case, I suggest noone try to give any advice.
> 
> Hey, hw: no need to get grumpy. The OP has been polite all the time, she
> just has special need. If you feel like that, better not answer.

She has been the opposite of polite.

> 
> Cheers