subject:"KDE is now broken $Fwd\: Heads\-up\: KDE4 hitting testing tonight \(UTC$ \)"

On Wed, May 27, 2009 at 05:22:32PM -0400, H.S. wrote:
 I agree with Boyd in his understanding of your post. What is the use of
 language if you say one thing that a reasonable person would understand
 but meant something completely different? If a reasonable receiver does
 not understand the message as intended, the communication was faulty.

Misunderstandings are always possible.

  that I don't have the mysql server installed and that kde isn't
  working anymore after the update.
 
 What follows from Boyd's post is that mysql is not necessary for a
 working system and he disagrees with you that removal of mysql breaks
 KE. Proof: I have the new KDE working fine in Debian Testing even after
 having removed mysql server. So the fact is that mysql is not necessary
 for a working KDE unless you are using package which require it.

I haven't said that mysql is necessary for a working kde. What I have
said is that it doesn't work anymore after the last update during
which I refused to install a mysql server.

 Perhaps you should see what exactly is broken.

I already mentioned about 3 or 4 times in this thread that kdm, when
it tries to start, says that there is no greeting widget and that I
should check the configuration. I'm merely expecting it to work
because no packages are broken, no dependencies are unfulfilled, and I
didn't mess with kdm in any way. I'm also not very inclined to figure
out what the error message is supposed to tell me and how to fix it
because it's not that important that I'd want to spend hours on
that. Maybe it fixes itself after some updates.

 I tried to help in this thread by posting the log of packages that I
 removed while removing mysql. From your sole response to that post,
 I gather your kdm is not working.

Yes, kdm isn't working. I haven't tried to remove more packages
because it doesn't make sense to me to remove more packages when
something appears to be already missing.

 Try gdm instead, I use it without any problem.

Maybe it's working for you because you're using gdm and not kdm.

For the second time in this thread: Is there another way to start kde
than using kdm (or gdm)? Though they can be nice to have, I don't want
to have to use either of them.


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Re: KDE is now broken (Fwd: Heads-up: KDE4 hitting testing tonight (UTC) )

2009-05-28 Thread Sjoerd Hardeman


lee wrote:

For the second time in this thread: Is there another way to start kde
than using kdm (or gdm)? Though they can be nice to have, I don't want
to have to use either of them.


Isn't startx or startkde supposed to do that? Login at the console and 
try that.
FYI, I have kde 4.2 and kdm working, without any tampering with config 
files, but then I do have a mysql server installed. Yet, that can hardly 
be the reason for kdm to fail. Are you sure all libraries used by kdm 
are installed?


Sjoerd




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Re: KDE is now broken (Fwd: Heads-up: KDE4 hitting testing tonight (UTC) )

2009-05-28 Thread Douglas A. Tutty

On Wed, May 27, 2009 at 11:18:54AM -0500, lee wrote:
 On Tue, May 26, 2009 at 10:46:47AM -0500, Boyd Stephen Smith Jr. wrote:
  In 20090526142918.gc5...@cat.rubenette.is-a-geek.com, lee wrote:
  On Mon, May 25, 2009 at 01:17:16PM -0500, Boyd Stephen Smith Jr. wrote:
   Use the old software.  It might not run on the latest release of Debian,
   but it should run on whatever version you had before.  Older releases
   are maintained in the archive, and you can archive whatever you need
   yourself if you don't want to depend on the Debian infrastructure.
 
  How do you get it to run on
  contemporary hardware?
  
  Run it on the hardware you were running it on before.  We are talking about 
  accessing the data for the purpose of migration; you should still have the 
  hardware (and software) you are migrating from.
 
 1.) When I'm changing hardware, I'm usually replacing board, CPU and
 RAM. I take that out of the case and put the new stuff in. That means
 I can't run the software on the old hardware anymore, not without
 changing the stuff out again. It would really suck if I had to do
 that.

If your backup/archive hardware won't connect to the new computer, then
you'll need to migrate the data to new archive hardware first, then
migrate the computer to new hardware.

 2.) I'm not so much talking about migration as about keeping data
 readable. Keep it on your disks or put it aside on some removable
 storage medium, then after 15 or 30 years, try to read it. Having used
 a mysql database to store the data doesn't make it easier to read it
 after 15 or 30 years.

As far as I know, the only digital media that is designed to last that
long on the shelf without data loss is tape.  Since tape technology
moves apace, you should probably archive a couple of tape drives along
with the data.
 
  Find your local LUG and ask around.  I can virtually guarantee that there 
  someone with a storage unit full of old hardware they are keeping for some 
  reason.  Even better if you have a local FreeGeek.
 
 Who would keep all the old hardware? And for what? And it's nothing
 you could rely on.

Actually, I need old hardware.  Newer hardware gives my wife headaches.
It varies, though.  Usually, she can tolerate my NetServer LPr dual
P-II-450, but right now its a problem.  I'll get my 486 out of storage
and put NetBSD on it and see how it is for her.  Of course, its
ISA and won't boot if there's a drive bigger than 1.2 GB on either IDE
controller.  What I really need is an old 100 MHz or slower SMP server
with scsi.  Or, at least, an ISA scsi card.

 
 How do you maintain 15 or 30 year old hardware?

Carefully.  Memory is still available for my 486.  The biggest problem
for me is hard drives; they die and aren't made small anymore.  Scsi
fixes that (since there are no bios issues with scsi). 
 
  And who guarantees that 30 year old hardware you kept in
  storage will still work when you need it?
  
  You do.
 
 No, I don't. I have no way to do that. I didn't manufacture it. I can
 only assume that it might work or not after 30 years.
 
 If what you're saying is practical for you, go ahead and keep your
 pile of hardware over 30 years or longer and try to put something
 together to read your data when you need to. That isn't practical for
 me.
 
Choose hardware in the first place that allows upgrade.  E.g. scsi
drives instead of IDE.  

Also, do you really need the data to sit on a shelf for 30 years, or can
it be cycled to new media every 5 years?  

There's something to be said for tarring to a raw disk partition (so
there's no filesystem to be corrupted), and putting the same data to
three different drives.  Then using some data comparision utility
(there's a deb available, I forget the name) to choose the correct block
for every block of the data.  This is far more reliable given three
partially corrupted data sets than e.g. raid where if a certain number
of blocks fail, the whole disk is marked bad. 

Doug.


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Re: KDE is now broken (Fwd: Heads-up: KDE4 hitting testing tonight (UTC) )

2009-05-28 Thread thveillon.debian

Sjoerd Hardeman wrote:
 lee wrote:
 For the second time in this thread: Is there another way to start kde
 than using kdm (or gdm)? Though they can be nice to have, I don't want
 to have to use either of them.
 
 Isn't startx or startkde supposed to do that? Login at the console and
 try that.
 FYI, I have kde 4.2 and kdm working, without any tampering with config
 files, but then I do have a mysql server installed. Yet, that can hardly
 be the reason for kdm to fail. Are you sure all libraries used by kdm
 are installed?
 
 Sjoerd
 
 
Hi,

FWIW I had problems with kdm when I migrated from kde3.5 to kde4
(Squeeze), and used gdm or startx to launch kde sessions. For some
reason startkde never did what I expected, never launched a kde4
session for me.

I just removed mysql-server from my system, and the few kde4 parts that
depends on it and I don't use. Everything is working fine here, even
after a reboot.

I'm sorry to say that I never found what was causing me trouble with kdm
at first. After a lot of experiments I ended up reinstalling a new
Squeeze system, copying just my config files and other stuff I needed
(doing the dpkg --get-selections magic, and keeping the same /home),
and kde4 now works as expected, including kdm, and without mysql-server.
What I have left on the system is :

aptitude search ~S~i~nmysql
i A libmysqlclient15off
i A mysql-common


There's a few discussions going on about similar problems on the
debian-kde list.

http://lists.debian.org/debian-kde/



Tom


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Re: KDE is now broken (Fwd: Heads-up: KDE4 hitting testing tonight (UTC) )

2009-05-28 Thread Douglas A. Tutty

On Wed, May 27, 2009 at 01:51:25PM -0500, lee wrote:
 On Wed, May 27, 2009 at 09:21:15PM +0300, Dotan Cohen wrote:
  If the issue is saving $20 on a case, then you are just $20 short of
  having a working solution. Sounds good to me.
 
 Where do you get a good case for $20? Shop around a bit and you'll
 find that useable ones start at about $250, and good ones cost more
 --- if you can find one at all.

Buy an old computer and use that case.

Doug.


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Re: KDE is now broken (Fwd: Heads-up: KDE4 hitting testing tonight (UTC) )

On Wed, May 27, 2009 at 04:19:07PM -0500, Boyd Stephen Smith Jr. wrote:
 In 20090527205036.gn5...@cat.rubenette.is-a-geek.com, lee wrote:
 On Wed, May 27, 2009 at 12:01:08PM -0500, Boyd Stephen Smith Jr. wrote:
  So, yes, you did say that.  You just didn't use those words, which is
  why they weren't a quote.  (Notice the lack of quotation marks.)  Anyone
  reading this message can follow the exact reasoning I used to get to
  that conclusion, based on the facts in this message--the quoted text. 
  Please let me know what, if any, problems exist in my reasoning.
 
 I'm not interested in how you're turning and twisting the words ---
 
 Yes you are; my grasp of the English language is that only thing that allows 
 you and I to communicate (for now).  Assuming you want to communicate with 
 me, you are interested on how your words acquire meaning in my mind.

That still doesn't mean that I'd be interested in how you are turning
and twisting words.

Anyway, how do words acquire meaning in your mind? How words/language
acquire(s) meaning is an interesting topic.

 maybe it helps if you keep in mind that using language is different
 from using mathematics or a programming language. 
 
 Not entirely.  There's a bit more fuzz on it since words and higher-level 
 language constructs do not map directly to meanings or, in the logic/math 
 parlance, propositions.  However, failing to apply logical techniques to 
 language analysis is leaving a very useful tool (maybe even your most useful 
 tool) behind.

Then you might agree that applying logic to language can be an
inappropriate usage of a concept that can be sometimes useful. Using
it can easily lead to misunderstanding.

 I believe the transformations I applied to your words preserve their 
 meaning.  Can you show where exactly I failed to preserve your meaning?

I guess you failed to preserve the meaning by applying
transformations and losing the meaning somewhere along the way:

   Oh, then you don't want to run those parts of KDE; They require a
   connection to an Akonadi server.  They've been scheduled to since
   before KDE 4.0 was available.
  
  Maybe not. I'd be fine without them, if it would work without ---
   but it doesn't.
   [...]

 Your exact statement: I'd be fine without them, if it would work
 without --- but it doesn't.
 [...]

You seem to have made a leap here by connecting two things and/or
drawing a conclusion. What I was saying is that I would be fine
without the parts of KDE that require a connection to an akonadi
server if KDE would work without. I was also saying that it doesn't
work (which is a matter of fact).

I haven't said anywhere that KDE doesn't work without an akonadi
server. That seems to be a leap/conclusion you seem to have made. ---
Maybe I should have been more unambiguous.

Let me add that I don't know why it doesn't work. I have tried to
describe what I did and stated that KDE doesn't work anymore and
mentioned the error message that is being displayed when KDE (or kdm,
if that is an important difference) tries to start. I'm still thinking
that it would work if I had let aptitude install all the packages it
wanted to install --- but even if would work with all the packages
installed, that still wouldn't mean that it doesn't work now because I
didn't let it install the mysql server package.

However, it is a very common mistake to think that when something
isn't one thing, that this automatically means it is another. That
would be like saying Because this isn't a table, it must be a
chair. Unfortunately, people make this mistake all the time. This
mistake leads to the sort of assumptions as you have made.

 The fact remains
 that I don't have the mysql server installed and that kde isn't
 working anymore after the update.
 
 I don't doubt that.  However, I know that KDE 4.2 *can* work without Akonadi 
 and MySQL, because I have it *working*.

I don't doubt that, either.

 Your statements do not allow for the possibility that your issues
 could be local.

That's your assumption/conclusion. It's not what my statements do.


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Re: KDE is now broken (Fwd: Heads-up: KDE4 hitting testing tonight (UTC) )

On Thu, May 28, 2009 at 03:22:57PM +0200, Sjoerd Hardeman wrote:
 lee wrote:
 For the second time in this thread: Is there another way to start kde
 than using kdm (or gdm)? Though they can be nice to have, I don't want
 to have to use either of them.

 Isn't startx or startkde supposed to do that? Login at the console and  
 try that.

Ah! startkde might work; I'll try that. startx starts X with only
what I put into ~/.xinitrc, that's what I'm currently using.

 Are you sure all libraries used by kdm are installed?

There are no broken packages or unfulfilled dependencies, so I would
assume that everything needed is installed unless there's a mistake in
some package (like not having all the dependencies needed). Still I
guess that something might be missing because that's what the error
message indicates.


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Re: KDE is now broken (Fwd: Heads-up: KDE4 hitting testing tonight (UTC) )

On Thu, May 28, 2009 at 03:42:08PM +0200, komodo wrote:
 On Thursday 28 of May 2009 15:00:29 lee wrote:
 
  I already mentioned about 3 or 4 times in this thread that kdm, when
  it tries to start, says that there is no greeting widget and that I
  should check the configuration. I'm merely expecting it to work
  because no packages are broken, no dependencies are unfulfilled, and I
  didn't mess with kdm in any way. I'm also not very inclined to figure
  out what the error message is supposed to tell me and how to fix it
  because it's not that important that I'd want to spend hours on
  that. Maybe it fixes itself after some updates.
 
 Hi
 
 What about this ?
 
 http://albertech.net/2009/04/kde-how-to-fix-no-greeter-widget-plugin-loaded-error/

That fits perfectly, thanks! The symptoms are the same, and
kdebase-workspace is currently not installed. I'll install it and see
what happens ...


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Re: KDE is now broken (Fwd: Heads-up: KDE4 hitting testing tonight (UTC) )

2009-05-28 Thread Andrei Popescu

On Thu,28.May.09, 08:58:03, lee wrote:
 On Thu, May 28, 2009 at 03:22:57PM +0200, Sjoerd Hardeman wrote:
  lee wrote:
  For the second time in this thread: Is there another way to start kde
  than using kdm (or gdm)? Though they can be nice to have, I don't want
  to have to use either of them.
 
  Isn't startx or startkde supposed to do that? Login at the console and  
  try that.
 
 Ah! startkde might work; I'll try that. startx starts X with only
 what I put into ~/.xinitrc, that's what I'm currently using.

If you remove (or rename) .xinitrc startx will start x-session-manager.  
You can use update-alternatives to choose yours.

Regards,
Andrei
-- 
If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough.
(Albert Einstein)


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Re: KDE is now broken (Fwd: Heads-up: KDE4 hitting testing tonight (UTC) )

On Wed, May 27, 2009 at 04:23:18PM -0500, Boyd Stephen Smith Jr. wrote:
 In 20090527205142.go5...@cat.rubenette.is-a-geek.com, lee wrote:
 On Wed, May 27, 2009 at 12:03:29PM -0500, Boyd Stephen Smith Jr. wrote:
   Older releases are maintained in the archive
  For 30 years or more?
  From what I understand, that is the plan.  The archive currently goes
  back to the first release of Debian.
 It may be planned to do that, but that doesn't mean that it will be
 done.
 
 And when we have done it for 30 years, you or your successor will simply up 
 the number to something that is longer than the lifespan of the Debian 
 project so you don't have to be without your strawman.

You can consider the problem of keeping data readable and usable over
long periods of time a strawman all you want. If you have data that
you want to still be able to read/use after a long time, you might
have a problem that is somewhat difficult to solve.

It's up to you if you want to rely on external sources like Debian
archives being available for a long time or not.


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Re: KDE is now broken (Fwd: Heads-up: KDE4 hitting testing tonight (UTC) )

2009-05-28 Thread komodo

On Thursday 28 of May 2009 16:01:14 lee wrote:
 On Thu, May 28, 2009 at 03:42:08PM +0200, komodo wrote:
  On Thursday 28 of May 2009 15:00:29 lee wrote:
   I already mentioned about 3 or 4 times in this thread that kdm, when
   it tries to start, says that there is no greeting widget and that I
   should check the configuration. I'm merely expecting it to work
   because no packages are broken, no dependencies are unfulfilled, and I
   didn't mess with kdm in any way. I'm also not very inclined to figure
   out what the error message is supposed to tell me and how to fix it
   because it's not that important that I'd want to spend hours on
   that. Maybe it fixes itself after some updates.
 
  Hi
 
  What about this ?
 
  http://albertech.net/2009/04/kde-how-to-fix-no-greeter-widget-plugin-load
 ed-error/

 That fits perfectly, thanks! The symptoms are the same, and
 kdebase-workspace is currently not installed. I'll install it and see
 what happens ...


Good, so there is some dependecy problem, hope it will be fixed in next 
update.

Martin


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Re: KDE is now broken (Fwd: Heads-up: KDE4 hitting testing tonight (UTC) )

2009-05-28 Thread komodo

On Thursday 28 of May 2009 15:00:29 lee wrote:

 I already mentioned about 3 or 4 times in this thread that kdm, when
 it tries to start, says that there is no greeting widget and that I
 should check the configuration. I'm merely expecting it to work
 because no packages are broken, no dependencies are unfulfilled, and I
 didn't mess with kdm in any way. I'm also not very inclined to figure
 out what the error message is supposed to tell me and how to fix it
 because it's not that important that I'd want to spend hours on
 that. Maybe it fixes itself after some updates.

Hi

What about this ?

http://albertech.net/2009/04/kde-how-to-fix-no-greeter-widget-plugin-loaded-error/

Martin


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Re: KDE is now broken (Fwd: Heads-up: KDE4 hitting testing tonight (UTC) )

On Thu, May 28, 2009 at 01:14:03AM -0400, Brendan wrote:
  Where do you get a good case for $20? Shop around a bit and you'll
  find that useable ones start at about $250, and good ones cost more
  --- if you can find one at all.
 
 250? Is this a gold case?

Show me where you can buy the following for $20: a new (or used) metal
or aluminum full-size tower (or equal size) case with wheels, room for
at least six, better eight, 3.5 disks, at least five 5.25 slots and
some openings on the back to install fans that are at least 120mm in
diameter. It must not be a so-called tool less case but use screws
to install components and to hold the panels to the chassis. It
should be available without a power supply.

$250 is cheap for a good case, without any gold on it. Overpriced?
Probably, but when nobody sells them cheaper, you don't have a choice.


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Re: KDE is now broken (Fwd: Heads-up: KDE4 hitting testing tonight (UTC) )

On Thu, May 28, 2009 at 07:40:37AM +0200, Dotan Cohen wrote:
  Where do you get a good case for $20? Shop around a bit and you'll
  find that useable ones start at about $250, and good ones cost more
 
 You should start looking for a new place to buy cases.

Do you know a good place? I was lucky and got a good used one for $50.

 Or just screw the motherboard to a sheet of plywood for a temporary
 fix, I've done that!

Well, you can just put it on a table for that. I don't know how
plywood is sold where you live, but here you have to buy the whole
sheet if you need some; they don't sell pieces.


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Re: KDE is now broken (Fwd: Heads-up: KDE4 hitting testing tonight (UTC) )

On Thu, May 28, 2009 at 09:44:12AM -0400, Douglas A. Tutty wrote:

  Where do you get a good case for $20? Shop around a bit and you'll
  find that useable ones start at about $250, and good ones cost more
  --- if you can find one at all.
 
 Buy an old computer and use that case.

That's what I did, though the computer was already taken out of the
case. I even threw away the redundant power supply that came with it
because it wasn't useable for modern boards (and would probably have
been too loud, anyway). It was a pity, but if you don't throw things
away eventually, you drown in all the stuff you pile up.

However, it's not easy to find one that comes with a good case.


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Re: KDE is now broken (Fwd: Heads-up: KDE4 hitting testing tonight (UTC) )

On Thu, May 28, 2009 at 09:42:57AM -0400, Douglas A. Tutty wrote:
 If your backup/archive hardware won't connect to the new computer, then
 you'll need to migrate the data to new archive hardware first, then
 migrate the computer to new hardware.

Yes, but then you might have overlooked something ... And hardware is
only a part of the problem.

  2.) I'm not so much talking about migration as about keeping data
  readable. Keep it on your disks or put it aside on some removable
  storage medium, then after 15 or 30 years, try to read it. Having used
  a mysql database to store the data doesn't make it easier to read it
  after 15 or 30 years.
 
 As far as I know, the only digital media that is designed to last that
 long on the shelf without data loss is tape.  Since tape technology
 moves apace, you should probably archive a couple of tape drives along
 with the data.

Well, I used to have some tape drives when the disks were smaller, but
I haven't looked into them for years. I always bought them used, and
they were still rather expensive.

Can you get a reliable tape drive, incl. some tapes, that stores at
least 1TB per tape, for max. $200 now?

  Who would keep all the old hardware? And for what? And it's nothing
  you could rely on.
 
 Actually, I need old hardware.  Newer hardware gives my wife headaches.

Why is that? It limits her to very slow hardware which could be a
problem sooner or later because the old hardware isn't up to the task
anymore. It depends on what she wants to do, of course ...

 controller.  What I really need is an old 100 MHz or slower SMP server
 with scsi.  Or, at least, an ISA scsi card.

You can still get that --- but for how long?


  How do you maintain 15 or 30 year old hardware?
 
 Carefully.  Memory is still available for my 486.  The biggest problem
 for me is hard drives; they die and aren't made small anymore.  Scsi
 fixes that (since there are no bios issues with scsi). 

Yeah, SCSI is great, but it's not affordable anymore. What's the price
for a 1TB SCSI disk now? Like $1500? And I'd need two because I don't
put data on disks that aren't at least RAID1. I've seen too many disks
failing for that.

And look at the cables and terminators. You end up paying about $100
just to connect a few SCSI disks. I still have the controller and
disks, but the cables got lost when moving. They'd be nice to have,
though rather loud, but I didn't want to spend all the money on
cables. You can get 1TB SATA disks for the price of the SCSI cables
and the terminators ...


In your case, you could have the computer for your wife boot over the
network and run it without any disks. Put the sever for that at some
place where it doesn't bother her.

 Choose hardware in the first place that allows upgrade.  E.g. scsi
 drives instead of IDE.  

SCSI doesn't allow upgrades anymore because it's too expensive.

 Also, do you really need the data to sit on a shelf for 30 years, or can
 it be cycled to new media every 5 years?  

I keep it on the disks. I don't have a solution for making backups
anymore. I'm going to need new disks soon, and I'm also going to need
a second set for backups (still better than none) --- but I don't have
the money for that atm.

 There's something to be said for tarring to a raw disk partition (so
 there's no filesystem to be corrupted), and putting the same data to
 three different drives.  Then using some data comparision utility
 (there's a deb available, I forget the name) to choose the correct block
 for every block of the data.  This is far more reliable given three
 partially corrupted data sets than e.g. raid where if a certain number
 of blocks fail, the whole disk is marked bad. 

You want to buy 8 sets of 3 disks each for your dayly and monthly
backups and an SATA controller that can do hotplug? That's about
$2500 --- maybe you can get a tape drive for that kind of money.


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Re: KDE is now broken (Fwd: Heads-up: KDE4 hitting testing tonight (UTC) )

On Wed, May 27, 2009 at 04:35:01PM -0500, Boyd Stephen Smith Jr. wrote:
 In 20090527205951.gp5...@cat.rubenette.is-a-geek.com, lee wrote:
 On Wed, May 27, 2009 at 12:10:54PM -0500, Boyd Stephen Smith Jr. wrote:
  It's
  something hidden from the user instead of telling them about
  it. That's never a good idea.
 
  Actually, according to actual HCI studies it is often better to hide
  things from a user instead of telling them about it.
 
 What means better in that case?
 
 They are able to complete a series of tasks in less time or with less 
 prompting/guidance.
 
  Now, once the user starts
  looking for that setting, it should be available, but too many settings
  and too much explanatory text confuses rather than enlightens.
 
 Whatever you do, there's nothing that helps against stupidity.
 
 And being confused by an over-abundance of options is not a sign of 
 stupidity.  While the number of facts one can track shows some 
 correspondence to financial success, academic success, and the one-size-
 fits-all monstrosity that is IQ, it is much lower than the number of options 
 that will fit on a 800x600 panel, even for the very 
 successful/intelligent.

I'm talking about knowledge and understanding. If your users don't
have sufficient knowledge and understanding to complete a series of
tasks, hiding knowledge and means to increase understanding --- or
indications that they might lack sufficient knowledge and
understanding or motivations to learn more --- will not enable them to
complete a series of tasks.

Given sufficient knowledge and understanding and an appropriate way in
which options are being presented, having options isn't confusing.

You can try to level everything down to no
knowledge/understanding/skill/talent/intelligence required and thus
try to keep your users stupid. But I don't want to use that kind of
software, and I'm against keeping people stupid.

 Then it's irrelevant that translations can be usually much faster
 when an RDBMS is used.
 
 Okay, but it is not irrelevant that the translations can still be hidden 
 from the user so there's no reason to worry about minor migration issues 
 with it anymore that with plain-text files.

They shouldn't be hidden.

 Change happens.  Trying to prevent it is futile.  Instead, focus on
 shaping the future into something you like better than the present.

That's why I'm saying it would be nice if something could be used or
invented that avoids future problems with reading/using data that has
been created a long time ago or stored for a long time.


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Re: KDE is now broken (Fwd: Heads-up: KDE4 hitting testing tonight (UTC) )

2009-05-28 Thread H.S.

lee wrote:
 On Wed, May 27, 2009 at 05:22:32PM -0400, H.S. wrote:
 I agree with Boyd in his understanding of your post. What is the use of
 language if you say one thing that a reasonable person would understand
 but meant something completely different? If a reasonable receiver does
 not understand the message as intended, the communication was faulty.
 
 Misunderstandings are always possible.

Sure, but you didn't show similar understanding, and were not forgiving,
while replying to Boyd's reasonable explanation how he interpreted your
writing.


 
 I haven't said that mysql is necessary for a working kde. What I have
 said is that it doesn't work anymore after the last update during
 which I refused to install a mysql server.

See further below.


 Perhaps you should see what exactly is broken.
 
 I already mentioned about 3 or 4 times in this thread that kdm, when
 it tries to start, says that there is no greeting widget and that I
 should check the configuration. I'm merely expecting it to work
 because no packages are broken, no dependencies are unfulfilled, and I
 didn't mess with kdm in any way. I'm also not very inclined to figure
 out what the error message is supposed to tell me and how to fix it
 because it's not that important that I'd want to spend hours on
 that. Maybe it fixes itself after some updates.

Have you tried reinstalling kdm with aptitude? Or purging it and then
installing it again? Purging might recreate the config files.


 
 Try gdm instead, I use it without any problem.
 
 Maybe it's working for you because you're using gdm and not kdm.
 
 For the second time in this thread: Is there another way to start kde
 than using kdm (or gdm)? Though they can be nice to have, I don't want
 to have to use either of them.

Your system is messed up somehow. I do not have mysql installed yet
trying to install kdm goes without a hitch!
$ sudo aptitude install kdm
Reading package lists... Done
Building dependency tree
Reading state information... Done
Reading extended state information
Initializing package states... Done
Reading task descriptions... Done
The following NEW packages will be installed:
  kdm
0 packages upgraded, 1 newly installed, 0 to remove and 3 not upgraded.
Need to get 1710kB of archives. After unpacking 3682kB will be used.


Fact: from the above, it is quite clear that kdm does *not* require
mysql. You have some other problem with kdm, it appears, and mysql is
not the culprit here.





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Re: KDE is now broken (Fwd: Heads-up: KDE4 hitting testing tonight (UTC) )

On Wed, May 27, 2009 at 04:37:33PM -0500, Boyd Stephen Smith Jr. wrote:
 In 20090527210120.gq5...@cat.rubenette.is-a-geek.com, lee wrote:
 On Wed, May 27, 2009 at 09:11:38PM +0300, Dotan Cohen wrote:
   You might check out the database component of KOffice 2.
   It is supposed to be a bit friendlier than the OO.o
   database component and should, by default, use an SQLite database
   embedded in the document.
  Kexi hasn't made it into Koffice 2.0. We are still hopeful for Koffice
  2.1.
 But it's in the version that comes with testing. It looks promising,
 but it always crashed when I wanted to save a query.
 
 D'Oh, sorry about the poor recommendation.  I really do have high hopes for 
 KOffice.

Nah, it's a good recommendation. It doesn't work well yet, but even in
this state I'll try it next time I need a database for something and
might get further than I did with openoffice.


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Re: KDE is now broken (Fwd: Heads-up: KDE4 hitting testing tonight (UTC) )

On Thu, May 28, 2009 at 11:44:49AM -0400, H.S. wrote:
 
 Have you tried reinstalling kdm with aptitude? Or purging it and then
 installing it again? Purging might recreate the config files.

Yes, I tried that, but it didn't change anything.

It's working now, but I don't like it ...


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Re: KDE is now broken (Fwd: Heads-up: KDE4 hitting testing tonight (UTC) )

On Thu, May 28, 2009 at 04:12:18PM +0200, komodo wrote:
   What about this ?
  
   http://albertech.net/2009/04/kde-how-to-fix-no-greeter-widget-plugin-load
  ed-error/
 
  That fits perfectly, thanks! The symptoms are the same, and
  kdebase-workspace is currently not installed. I'll install it and see
  what happens ...
 
 
 Good, so there is some dependecy problem, hope it will be fixed in next 
 update.

It seems so --- it's working now, but I don't like it ...


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Re: KDE is now broken (Fwd: Heads-up: KDE4 hitting testing tonight (UTC) )

2009-05-28 Thread H.S.

lee wrote:
 On Thu, May 28, 2009 at 11:44:49AM -0400, H.S. wrote:
 Have you tried reinstalling kdm with aptitude? Or purging it and then
 installing it again? Purging might recreate the config files.
 
 Yes, I tried that, but it didn't change anything.
 
 It's working now, but I don't like it ...
 
 

I am not sure I understand what you mean here. You don't like what? KDE
working? kdm working? kdm itself?


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Re: KDE is now broken (Fwd: Heads-up: KDE4 hitting testing tonight (UTC) )

2009-05-28 Thread Douglas A. Tutty

On Thu, May 28, 2009 at 10:08:00AM -0500, lee wrote:
 On Thu, May 28, 2009 at 09:42:57AM -0400, Douglas A. Tutty wrote:
  As far as I know, the only digital media that is designed to last that
  long on the shelf without data loss is tape.  Since tape technology
  moves apace, you should probably archive a couple of tape drives along
  with the data.
 
 Well, I used to have some tape drives when the disks were smaller, but
 I haven't looked into them for years. I always bought them used, and
 they were still rather expensive.
 
 Can you get a reliable tape drive, incl. some tapes, that stores at
 least 1TB per tape, for max. $200 now?

No.  You can get used LTO-3 drives for about $250 on ebay.  Tapes, of
whatever capacity, end up costing about $50 each (I suppose unless you
buy in great volume).  You have to do the math once you determine your
data set size to know whether its cheaper to have a lower-capacity drive
with more tapes or a higher-capacity drive with fewer tapes.  

I just went through the math for my 12 GB data-set size and compared
tape to USB sticks (not for archive, but for off-site backup).  The
break-even point was 72GB: less than that and USB sticks (16 GB) were
cheaper; more than that and a used LTO-3 tape changer was cheaper.

   Who would keep all the old hardware? And for what? And it's nothing
   you could rely on.
  
  Actually, I need old hardware.  Newer hardware gives my wife headaches.
 
 Why is that? It limits her to very slow hardware which could be a
 problem sooner or later because the old hardware isn't up to the task
 anymore. It depends on what she wants to do, of course ...


Whether it limits her (actually me) or not is not the issue.  If it
gives her a headache then I can't use it at all, which is very limiting.
Other than web-browsing (e.g. firefox/iceweasel), I can do everything on
my 486 if I have enough drives.  

  controller.  What I really need is an old 100 MHz or slower SMP server
  with scsi.  Or, at least, an ISA scsi card.
 
 You can still get that --- but for how long?
 
 
   How do you maintain 15 or 30 year old hardware?
  
  Carefully.  Memory is still available for my 486.  The biggest problem
  for me is hard drives; they die and aren't made small anymore.  Scsi
  fixes that (since there are no bios issues with scsi). 
 
 Yeah, SCSI is great, but it's not affordable anymore. What's the price
 for a 1TB SCSI disk now? Like $1500? And I'd need two because I don't
 put data on disks that aren't at least RAID1. I've seen too many disks
 failing for that.

Look at the sweet-spot price point for used scsi drives, then get a used
hardware raid card.  My HP NetServer LPr (dual P-II-450) came with 1 GB
ram, two 36 GB scsi drives, and a HP NetRaid 1si card for $65 (and all
cables, terminators, etc).  You can get the raid cards cheap if used.
Get a 14-bay external scsi hot-swap enclosure to hook up to it (another
$50) and load it up with the scsi drives (of whatever size).  

Of course, if you have to pay for power, I guess at some point its
cheaper to buy two 1TB drives.

 And look at the cables and terminators. You end up paying about $100
 just to connect a few SCSI disks. I still have the controller and
 disks, but the cables got lost when moving. They'd be nice to have,
 though rather loud, but I didn't want to spend all the money on
 cables. You can get 1TB SATA disks for the price of the SCSI cables
 and the terminators ...

And forgo the reliability.  You really comparing SATA to SCSI?  SAS to
SCSI sure; SATA to IDE sure.  

Check ebay for the cables and terminators.  There are lots of computer
recyclers that only sell through ebay.

 In your case, you could have the computer for your wife boot over the
 network and run it without any disks. Put the sever for that at some
 place where it doesn't bother her.

That would be about 500 feet away.  First, I'd have to buy a lot that's
big enough, then build a data centre 500 feet away...

  Also, do you really need the data to sit on a shelf for 30 years, or can
  it be cycled to new media every 5 years?  
 
 I keep it on the disks. I don't have a solution for making backups
 anymore. I'm going to need new disks soon, and I'm also going to need
 a second set for backups (still better than none) --- but I don't have
 the money for that atm.
 
  There's something to be said for tarring to a raw disk partition (so
  there's no filesystem to be corrupted), and putting the same data to
  three different drives.  Then using some data comparision utility
  (there's a deb available, I forget the name) to choose the correct block
  for every block of the data.  This is far more reliable given three
  partially corrupted data sets than e.g. raid where if a certain number
  of blocks fail, the whole disk is marked bad. 
 
 You want to buy 8 sets of 3 disks each for your dayly and monthly
 backups and an SATA controller that can do hotplug? That's about
 $2500 --- maybe you can get a tape drive for that kind of money.

Re: KDE is now broken (Fwd: Heads-up: KDE4 hitting testing tonight (UTC) )

On Tue, May 26, 2009 at 10:31:00AM -0500, Boyd Stephen Smith Jr. wrote:
 In 20090526142918.gc5...@cat.rubenette.is-a-geek.com, lee wrote:
 On Mon, May 25, 2009 at 01:17:16PM -0500, Boyd Stephen Smith Jr. wrote:
  In 20090525163904.gb5...@cat.rubenette.is-a-geek.com, lee wrote:
  On Sun, May 24, 2009 at 03:28:50PM -0500, Boyd Stephen Smith Jr. wrote:
   In 20090524145214.ga16...@cat.rubenette.is-a-geek.com, lee wrote:
   I
   don't want to run an akonadi server either, whatever that is.
   Oh, then you don't want to run those parts of KDE; They require a
   connection to an Akonadi server.  They've been scheduled to since
   before KDE 4.0 was available.
  Maybe not. I'd be fine without them, if it would work without --- but
  it doesn't.
  I said it before, and I'll say it again: That is just not true.  I was
  careful in my package selection and I have a working KDE 4.2 (including
  my must-have kmail) and I do not have a mysql server installed.
 
  KDE 4.2 can work without Akonadi, with a minimum of fuss.
 It is true, just a matter of fact.
 
 No, it is not.
 
 Your statement: KDE 4.2 doesn't work without the parts that want an Akonadi 
 server.

I've never said that.


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Re: KDE is now broken (Fwd: Heads-up: KDE4 hitting testing tonight (UTC) )

On Tue, May 26, 2009 at 10:46:47AM -0500, Boyd Stephen Smith Jr. wrote:
 In 20090526142918.gc5...@cat.rubenette.is-a-geek.com, lee wrote:
 On Mon, May 25, 2009 at 01:17:16PM -0500, Boyd Stephen Smith Jr. wrote:
  Use the old software.  It might not run on the latest release of Debian,
  but it should run on whatever version you had before.  Older releases
  are maintained in the archive, and you can archive whatever you need
  yourself if you don't want to depend on the Debian infrastructure.
 
  No one is forced to upgrade, but support does dwindle for a product over
  time.
 
 Where do you find the old software?
 
 Older releases are maintained in the archive

For 30 years or more?

 How do you get it to run on
 contemporary hardware?
 
 Run it on the hardware you were running it on before.  We are talking about 
 accessing the data for the purpose of migration; you should still have the 
 hardware (and software) you are migrating from.

1.) When I'm changing hardware, I'm usually replacing board, CPU and
RAM. I take that out of the case and put the new stuff in. That means
I can't run the software on the old hardware anymore, not without
changing the stuff out again. It would really suck if I had to do
that.

2.) I'm not so much talking about migration as about keeping data
readable. Keep it on your disks or put it aside on some removable
storage medium, then after 15 or 30 years, try to read it. Having used
a mysql database to store the data doesn't make it easier to read it
after 15 or 30 years.

 Or do you suggest to rent old hardware from a
 museum to install 15 or 20 year old software on it to make your data
 accessible?
 
 Find your local LUG and ask around.  I can virtually guarantee that there 
 someone with a storage unit full of old hardware they are keeping for some 
 reason.  Even better if you have a local FreeGeek.

Who would keep all the old hardware? And for what? And it's nothing
you could rely on.

 Or are you suggesting to rent storage space to pile up old
 hardware?
 
 If that's what you need to keep your data safe.  I certainly don't suggest 
 running on hardware platform that you can't maintain (which includes 
 acquiring replacement parts).

How do you maintain 15 or 30 year old hardware?

 That would require you to buy everything new, including hard
 disks, for example, when upgrading your hardware, and that's something
 I never did.
 
 That's not true.  It might mean you have to multi-task hardware during the 
 transition, but I generally don't buy everything new either.  Gradual 
 upgrades are much preferable.

If you don't buy everything new, you can't put your old hardware into
storage in working order in case you need it to read some data in 30
years.

 And who guarantees that 30 year old hardware you kept in
 storage will still work when you need it?
 
 You do.

No, I don't. I have no way to do that. I didn't manufacture it. I can
only assume that it might work or not after 30 years.

If what you're saying is practical for you, go ahead and keep your
pile of hardware over 30 years or longer and try to put something
together to read your data when you need to. That isn't practical for
me.


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Re: KDE is now broken (Fwd: Heads-up: KDE4 hitting testing tonight (UTC) )

On Tue, May 26, 2009 at 10:53:25AM -0500, Boyd Stephen Smith Jr. wrote:
 Then why do the dependencies require that a mysql server be installed?
 
 As I understand it:
 Because the embedded MySQL server is very much still a server.  You do 
 *not* have to start the daemon via the init script, and it doesn't listen on 
 public ports, but it needs all the server components.

So it's neither embedded, nor a server. That might make it difficult
to use a central server for many users. Anyway, I don't like it. It's
something hidden from the user instead of telling them about
it. That's never a good idea.

  These same issues can be hidden when using RDBMS backed, but the
  translations are usually much faster.
 
 Both of these won't be human readable, plain text files.
 
 Actually, yes.  KDE Configuration files are human-readable, plain-text 
 files.  They aren't free-form prose.  For the most part they follow the 
 .desktop file specification put together by XDG.

If you have to make so many translations of a configuration file
that nowadays' computers run into performance problems when doing so,
I don't consider the file as a human readable configuration file
anymore.

 The application writers can abuse them to store binary data, but that's true 
 of any plain-text format.

Yeah, that something is plain text doesn't mean that it is human
readable.

 Try to read
 your current kde configuration in 35 years, or try to read your data
 from the the RDBMS you're currently using in 35 years. You'll find
 that it won't be easy.
 
 I hope so.  I plan on using different, hopefully better, software by then.

And what if you need the information stored in it?


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Re: KDE is now broken (Fwd: Heads-up: KDE4 hitting testing tonight (UTC) )

On Tue, May 26, 2009 at 05:36:09PM +, marc wrote:
 lee said:
 
  Both of these won't be human readable, plain text files. Try to read
  your current kde configuration in 35 years, or try to read your data
  from the the RDBMS you're currently using in 35 years. You'll find that
  it won't be easy.
 
  Maybe software developers need to wake up and find a solution for
  keeping data readable and useable for long periods of time --- if that's
  possible at all.
 
 Problem solved:
 
   New memory material may hold data for one billion years.
 
   http://www.physorg.com/news162061022.html

Having a storage medium that can store data for a long time is only
part of the problem (and not one for software developers). What's for
software developers is, is finding storage formats for data that will
still be commonly used in a hundred years --- or even in a billion
years.


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Re: KDE is now broken (Fwd: Heads-up: KDE4 hitting testing tonight (UTC) )

On Tue, May 26, 2009 at 10:20:54AM -0500, Boyd Stephen Smith Jr. wrote:
 In 20090526144742.gd5...@cat.rubenette.is-a-geek.com, lee wrote:
 On a side note, what I could use is a Linux version of MS Access. That
 really is one very useful tool, and even that doesn't require an
 RDBMS.
 
 Actually, it does.  The Microsoft Jet Database Engine is a required part of 
 an MS Access install.  MS Excel might even require it at this point.

Sorry, I was mistaken about the meaning of RDBMS. I was thinking about
a DBMS that uses some sort of server which can be run on another
computer (or the same).

 You might check out the database component of KOffice 2 (still in beta, 
 IIRC).  It is supposed to be a bit friendlier than the OO.o database 
 component and should, by default, use an SQLite database embedded in the 
 document.

Sounds good --- I'll try it out. 44 packages to install ...


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Re: KDE is now broken (Fwd: Heads-up: KDE4 hitting testing tonight (UTC) )

On Tue, May 26, 2009 at 10:23:35AM -0500, Boyd Stephen Smith Jr. wrote:
 In 20090526144742.gd5...@cat.rubenette.is-a-geek.com, lee wrote:
 Even if I wanted to run an RDBMS because it's needed for something I
 want, I'd think at least twice about it and look for another solution
 first to keep the resource usage low: There are some games I want to
 play, and I don't want to have to try stopping things that are running
 before I can play them smoothly.
 
 SQLite doesn't run a daemon at all.  While there is an binary that 
 functional as a simple SQL Shell, all the real RDBMS work is handled by 
 the shared library.

Still it wants to install the full mysql server --- and doesn't that
package automatically start the server, even if it's then not used by
kde? Not that I couldn't prevent that, but they could make a package
that only installs the needed library instead of the full server ...

 Of course, there would still be the Akonadi server hanging around -- but it 
 should only wake up on demand when applications need services.

But does it take CPU time to figure out if it needs to wake up?


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Re: KDE is now broken (Fwd: Heads-up: KDE4 hitting testing tonight (UTC) )

2009-05-27 Thread Muzer

lee wrote:

On Tue, May 26, 2009 at 10:23:35AM -0500, Boyd Stephen Smith Jr. wrote:

In 20090526144742.gd5...@cat.rubenette.is-a-geek.com, lee wrote:

Even if I wanted to run an RDBMS because it's needed for something I
want, I'd think at least twice about it and look for another solution
first to keep the resource usage low: There are some games I want to
play, and I don't want to have to try stopping things that are running
before I can play them smoothly.

SQLite doesn't run a daemon at all. While there is an binary that
functional as a simple SQL Shell, all the real RDBMS work is handled by
the shared library.

Still it wants to install the full mysql server --- and doesn't that
package automatically start the server, even if it's then not used by
kde? Not that I couldn't prevent that, but they could make a package
that only installs the needed library instead of the full server ...

Haven't tested it, but couldn't you do (for example):
aptitude install koffice sqlite

to make it use the other one?

Chances are both will satisfy the dependancy, just sql is listed before
sqlite.

Of course, there would still be the Akonadi server hanging around -- but it
should only wake up on demand when applications need services.

But does it take CPU time to figure out if it needs to wake up?

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Re: KDE is now broken (Fwd: Heads-up: KDE4 hitting testing tonight (UTC) )

On Tue, May 26, 2009 at 11:06:48AM -0500, John Hasler wrote:
 lee wrote:
  Even if I wanted to run an RDBMS because it's needed for something I
  want, I'd think at least twice about it and look for another solution
  first to keep the resource usage low: There are some games I want to
  play, and I don't want to have to try stopping things that are running
  before I can play them smoothly.
 
 A database server that isn't doing anything doesn't use any resources.

It uses space on the hard disks and memory. It uses CPU time when it's
being started and when it's shut down. It eventually comes with
crontab entries that eventually run something. And how is figured out
if it needs to do something or if it can remain asleep?


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Re: KDE is now broken (Fwd: Heads-up: KDE4 hitting testing tonight (UTC) )

In 20090527160338.ge5...@cat.rubenette.is-a-geek.com, lee wrote:
On Tue, May 26, 2009 at 10:31:00AM -0500, Boyd Stephen Smith Jr. wrote:
 In 20090526142918.gc5...@cat.rubenette.is-a-geek.com, lee wrote:
 On Mon, May 25, 2009 at 01:17:16PM -0500, Boyd Stephen Smith Jr. wrote:
  In 20090525163904.gb5...@cat.rubenette.is-a-geek.com, lee wrote:
  On Sun, May 24, 2009 at 03:28:50PM -0500, Boyd Stephen Smith Jr.
  wrote:
   Oh, then you don't want to run those parts of KDE; They require a
   connection to an Akonadi server.  They've been scheduled to since
   before KDE 4.0 was available.
  
  Maybe not. I'd be fine without them, if it would work without ---
   but it doesn't.
 
  I said it before, and I'll say it again: That is just not true.  I
  was careful in my package selection and I have a working KDE 4.2
  (including my must-have kmail) and I do not have a mysql server
  installed.
 
  KDE 4.2 can work without Akonadi, with a minimum of fuss.
 
 It is true, just a matter of fact.

 No, it is not.

 Your statement: KDE 4.2 doesn't work without the parts that want an
 Akonadi server.

I've never said that.

Your exact statement: I'd be fine without them, if it would work without 
--- but it doesn't.

In your statement them refers to those parts of KDE that require a 
connection to an Akonadi server.  Put more succinctly, the parts that want 
an Akonadi server.

In your statement it refers to KDE 4.2, the version of KDE that entered 
testing and is causing you problems.

Performing substitutions, your statement becomes: I'd be fine without the 
parts that want an Akonadi server, if KDE 4.2 would work without --- but KDE 
4.2 doesn't.

Focusing on the second independent clause gives: KDE 4.2 doesn't.

Doesn't what?  This part was elided from the second independent clause 
because it was already in the first independent clause.  Adding it back 
gives:  KDE 4.2 doesn't work without.

Without what?  This part was elided from the first independent clause 
because it was already in the dependent clause.  Adding it back gives:  KDE 
4.2 doesn't work without the parts that want an Akonadi server.

So, yes, you did say that.  You just didn't use those words, which is why 
they weren't a quote.  (Notice the lack of quotation marks.)  Anyone reading 
this message can follow the exact reasoning I used to get to that 
conclusion, based on the facts in this message--the quoted text.  Please let 
me know what, if any, problems exist in my reasoning.
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Re: KDE is now broken (Fwd: Heads-up: KDE4 hitting testing tonight (UTC) )

On Tue, May 26, 2009 at 01:02:56PM -0500, Boyd Stephen Smith Jr. wrote:
 I'm sure they would prefer something based on multiple 
 CSV files (structured, but must mostly human-readable) instead, and I see no 
 technical roadblocks to that goal.
 
 Lee, could you do or sponsor such development?

Unfortunately not --- I'm not rich, and I never really understood
C++. Even if I did, I might not have the time to do much. And I don't
even need these applications ...


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Re: KDE is now broken (Fwd: Heads-up: KDE4 hitting testing tonight (UTC) )

In 20090527161854.gf5...@cat.rubenette.is-a-geek.com, lee wrote:
On Tue, May 26, 2009 at 10:46:47AM -0500, Boyd Stephen Smith Jr. wrote:
 In 20090526142918.gc5...@cat.rubenette.is-a-geek.com, lee wrote:
 On Mon, May 25, 2009 at 01:17:16PM -0500, Boyd Stephen Smith Jr. wrote:
  Use the old software.
 Where do you find the old software?
 Older releases are maintained in the archive
For 30 years or more?

From what I understand, that is the plan.  The archive currently goes back 
to the first release of Debian.
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Re: KDE is now broken (Fwd: Heads-up: KDE4 hitting testing tonight (UTC) )

In 20090527163101.gg5...@cat.rubenette.is-a-geek.com, lee wrote:
On Tue, May 26, 2009 at 10:53:25AM -0500, Boyd Stephen Smith Jr. wrote:
 Then why do the dependencies require that a mysql server be installed?
 As I understand it:
 Because the embedded MySQL server is very much still a server.  You do
 *not* have to start the daemon via the init script, and it doesn't
 listen on public ports, but it needs all the server components.
So it's neither embedded, nor a server. That might make it difficult
to use a central server for many users. Anyway, I don't like it. It's
something hidden from the user instead of telling them about
it. That's never a good idea.

Actually, according to actual HCI studies it is often better to hide things 
from a user instead of telling them about it.  Now, once the user starts 
looking for that setting, it should be available, but too many settings and 
too much explanatory text confuses rather than enlightens.

  These same issues can be hidden when using RDBMS backed, but the
  translations are usually much faster.
 Both of these won't be human readable, plain text files.
 Actually, yes.  KDE Configuration files are human-readable, plain-text
 files.  They aren't free-form prose.  For the most part they follow the
 .desktop file specification put together by XDG.
If you have to make so many translations of a configuration file
that nowadays' computers run into performance problems when doing so,
I don't consider the file as a human readable configuration file
anymore.

I never said the translations were causing performance issues.  I said 
they'd be faster with an SQL backend.  That is definitely *not* the reason 
Akonadi wants an SQL backend.

They are quite readable.  Usually a translation is just changing the 
name/spelling of a key.  But, it might be converting a value that is a list 
into multiple stanzas or something like that.  Generally, they leave the 
values alone, but they are the migration path from 'old' configuration files 
to 'new' configuration files.

 Try to read
 your current kde configuration in 35 years, or try to read your data
 from the the RDBMS you're currently using in 35 years. You'll find
 that it won't be easy.
 I hope so.  I plan on using different, hopefully better, software by
 then.
And what if you need the information stored in it?

I won't.  I'll export the data as I abandon that software.  Actually, I'll 
export the data before I abandon the software so I can import it into the 
new software and test it.
-- 
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Re: KDE is now broken (Fwd: Heads-up: KDE4 hitting testing tonight (UTC) )

In 20090527165037.gj5...@cat.rubenette.is-a-geek.com, lee wrote:
On Tue, May 26, 2009 at 10:23:35AM -0500, Boyd Stephen Smith Jr. wrote:
 SQLite doesn't run a daemon at all.  While there is an binary that
 functional as a simple SQL Shell, all the real RDBMS work is handled
 by the shared library.

Still it wants to install the full mysql server --- and doesn't that
package automatically start the server, even if it's then not used by
kde?

Sorry.  I think I've confused the conversation a bit.

SQLite is not part of MySQL.  It is a separate RDBMS that Akonadi may have 
support for in the future, since it is already understood by the QtSQL 
library.

But yes, the mysql package that akonadi-server Depends on does install and 
start a system daemon.  On top of that, I think Akonadi doesn't actually use 
that server, but rather uses a per-user embedded server by default.  (I 
could very well be mistaken about that.)

 Of course, there would still be the Akonadi server hanging around -- but
 it should only wake up on demand when applications need services.

But does it take CPU time to figure out if it needs to wake up?

Most likely not.  There are numerous ways for a process to wait for an 
outside event and not get scheduled by the kernel until that event occurs.  
select() probably being the most common.
-- 
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Re: KDE is now broken (Fwd: Heads-up: KDE4 hitting testing tonight (UTC) )

 You might check out the database component of KOffice 2 (still in beta,
 IIRC).  It is supposed to be a bit friendlier than the OO.o database
 component and should, by default, use an SQLite database embedded in the
 document.

Kexi hasn't made it into Koffice 2.0. We are still hopeful for Koffice 2.1.

-- 
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http://what-is-what.com
http://gibberish.co.il


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Re: KDE is now broken (Fwd: Heads-up: KDE4 hitting testing tonight (UTC) )

 Find your local LUG and ask around.  I can virtually guarantee that there
 someone with a storage unit full of old hardware they are keeping for some
 reason.  Even better if you have a local FreeGeek.

 Who would keep all the old hardware? And for what? And it's nothing
 you could rely on.


Geeks would keep that hardware. For what? For the same reason that
Hillary climbed Everest.

 How do you maintain 15 or 30 year old hardware?


Cooling, circuit breakers, relaxed duty cycle. And prayer, if you're into that.

 If you don't buy everything new, you can't put your old hardware into
 storage in working order in case you need it to read some data in 30
 years.


If the issue is saving $20 on a case, then you are just $20 short of
having a working solution. Sounds good to me.

-- 
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http://what-is-what.com
http://gibberish.co.il


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Re: KDE is now broken (Fwd: Heads-up: KDE4 hitting testing tonight (UTC) )

On Wed, May 27, 2009 at 09:21:15PM +0300, Dotan Cohen wrote:
  How do you maintain 15 or 30 year old hardware?
 
 
 Cooling, circuit breakers, relaxed duty cycle. And prayer, if you're into 
 that.

If you want to keep it running all the time ... Even if you don't, you
might have a problem when you need spare parts.

  If you don't buy everything new, you can't put your old hardware into
  storage in working order in case you need it to read some data in 30
  years.
 
 
 If the issue is saving $20 on a case, then you are just $20 short of
 having a working solution. Sounds good to me.

Where do you get a good case for $20? Shop around a bit and you'll
find that useable ones start at about $250, and good ones cost more
--- if you can find one at all.


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Re: KDE is now broken (Fwd: Heads-up: KDE4 hitting testing tonight (UTC) )

On Wed, May 27, 2009 at 12:01:08PM -0500, Boyd Stephen Smith Jr. wrote:
 So, yes, you did say that.  You just didn't use those words, which is why 
 they weren't a quote.  (Notice the lack of quotation marks.)  Anyone reading 
 this message can follow the exact reasoning I used to get to that 
 conclusion, based on the facts in this message--the quoted text.  Please let 
 me know what, if any, problems exist in my reasoning.

I'm not interested in how you're turning and twisting the words ---
maybe it helps if you keep in mind that using language is different
from using mathematics or a programming language. The fact remains
that I don't have the mysql server installed and that kde isn't
working anymore after the update.


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Re: KDE is now broken (Fwd: Heads-up: KDE4 hitting testing tonight (UTC) )

On Wed, May 27, 2009 at 12:03:29PM -0500, Boyd Stephen Smith Jr. wrote:
  Older releases are maintained in the archive
 For 30 years or more?
 
 From what I understand, that is the plan.  The archive currently goes back 
 to the first release of Debian.

It may be planned to do that, but that doesn't mean that it will be
done.


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Re: KDE is now broken (Fwd: Heads-up: KDE4 hitting testing tonight (UTC) )

On Wed, May 27, 2009 at 12:10:54PM -0500, Boyd Stephen Smith Jr. wrote:
 It's
 something hidden from the user instead of telling them about
 it. That's never a good idea.
 
 Actually, according to actual HCI studies it is often better to hide things 
 from a user instead of telling them about it.

What means better in that case?

 Now, once the user starts 
 looking for that setting, it should be available, but too many settings and 
 too much explanatory text confuses rather than enlightens.

Whatever you do, there's nothing that helps against stupidity.

   These same issues can be hidden when using RDBMS backed, but the
   translations are usually much faster.
  Both of these won't be human readable, plain text files.
  Actually, yes.  KDE Configuration files are human-readable, plain-text
  files.  They aren't free-form prose.  For the most part they follow the
  .desktop file specification put together by XDG.
 If you have to make so many translations of a configuration file
 that nowadays' computers run into performance problems when doing so,
 I don't consider the file as a human readable configuration file
 anymore.
 
 I never said the translations were causing performance issues.  I
 said they'd be faster with an SQL backend.  That is definitely *not*
 the reason Akonadi wants an SQL backend.

Then it's irrelevant that translations can be usually much faster
when an RDBMS is used.

 They are quite readable.  Usually a translation is just changing the 
 name/spelling of a key.  But, it might be converting a value that is a list 
 into multiple stanzas or something like that.  Generally, they leave the 
 values alone, but they are the migration path from 'old' configuration files 
 to 'new' configuration files.

So these translations need to be done only once?

  Try to read
  your current kde configuration in 35 years, or try to read your data
  from the the RDBMS you're currently using in 35 years. You'll find
  that it won't be easy.
  I hope so.  I plan on using different, hopefully better, software by
  then.
 And what if you need the information stored in it?
 
 I won't.  I'll export the data as I abandon that software.  Actually, I'll 
 export the data before I abandon the software so I can import it into the 
 new software and test it.

That is a possibility, but it requires to plan for it and to work on
it, and mistakes can be made. It would be easier if that wasn't
required.


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Re: KDE is now broken (Fwd: Heads-up: KDE4 hitting testing tonight (UTC) )

On Wed, May 27, 2009 at 09:11:38PM +0300, Dotan Cohen wrote:
  You might check out the database component of KOffice 2 (still in beta,
  IIRC).  It is supposed to be a bit friendlier than the OO.o database
  component and should, by default, use an SQLite database embedded in the
  document.
 
 Kexi hasn't made it into Koffice 2.0. We are still hopeful for Koffice 2.1.

But it's in the version that comes with testing. It looks promising,
but it always crashed when I wanted to save a query.


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Re: KDE is now broken (Fwd: Heads-up: KDE4 hitting testing tonight (UTC) )

On Wed, May 27, 2009 at 05:54:31PM +0100, Muzer wrote:
 lee wrote:
 Still it wants to install the full mysql server --- and doesn't that
 package automatically start the server, even if it's then not used by
 kde? Not that I couldn't prevent that, but they could make a package
 that only installs the needed library instead of the full server ...
   
 Haven't tested it, but couldn't you do (for example):
 aptitude install koffice sqlite

 to make it use the other one?

 Chances are both will satisfy the dependancy, just sql is listed before  
 sqlite.

Maybe that works --- but since I don't need the applications that use
mysql, I'd rather keep them removed but the rest of kde working.


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Re: KDE is now broken (Fwd: Heads-up: KDE4 hitting testing tonight (UTC) )

In 20090527205036.gn5...@cat.rubenette.is-a-geek.com, lee wrote:
On Wed, May 27, 2009 at 12:01:08PM -0500, Boyd Stephen Smith Jr. wrote:
 So, yes, you did say that.  You just didn't use those words, which is
 why they weren't a quote.  (Notice the lack of quotation marks.)  Anyone
 reading this message can follow the exact reasoning I used to get to
 that conclusion, based on the facts in this message--the quoted text. 
 Please let me know what, if any, problems exist in my reasoning.

I'm not interested in how you're turning and twisting the words ---

Yes you are; my grasp of the English language is that only thing that allows 
you and I to communicate (for now).  Assuming you want to communicate with 
me, you are interested on how your words acquire meaning in my mind.

maybe it helps if you keep in mind that using language is different
from using mathematics or a programming language. 

Not entirely.  There's a bit more fuzz on it since words and higher-level 
language constructs do not map directly to meanings or, in the logic/math 
parlance, propositions.  However, failing to apply logical techniques to 
language analysis is leaving a very useful tool (maybe even your most useful 
tool) behind.

I believe the transformations I applied to your words preserve their 
meaning.  Can you show where exactly I failed to preserve your meaning?

The fact remains
that I don't have the mysql server installed and that kde isn't
working anymore after the update.

I don't doubt that.  However, I know that KDE 4.2 *can* work without Akonadi 
and MySQL, because I have it *working*.  Your statements do not allow for 
the possibility that your issues could be local.
-- 
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Re: KDE is now broken (Fwd: Heads-up: KDE4 hitting testing tonight (UTC) )

In 20090527205142.go5...@cat.rubenette.is-a-geek.com, lee wrote:
On Wed, May 27, 2009 at 12:03:29PM -0500, Boyd Stephen Smith Jr. wrote:
  Older releases are maintained in the archive
 For 30 years or more?
 From what I understand, that is the plan.  The archive currently goes
 back to the first release of Debian.
It may be planned to do that, but that doesn't mean that it will be
done.

And when we have done it for 30 years, you or your successor will simply up 
the number to something that is longer than the lifespan of the Debian 
project so you don't have to be without your strawman.

Everything that has ever been Debian is still available, over a decade into 
the project.  That's better than most, and I've yet to see an actual reason 
to doubt that Debian won't continue it's pattern of excellence.
-- 
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Re: KDE is now broken (Fwd: Heads-up: KDE4 hitting testing tonight (UTC) )

2009-05-27 Thread H.S.

lee wrote:
 On Wed, May 27, 2009 at 12:01:08PM -0500, Boyd Stephen Smith Jr. wrote:
 So, yes, you did say that.  You just didn't use those words, which is why 
 they weren't a quote.  (Notice the lack of quotation marks.)  Anyone reading 
 this message can follow the exact reasoning I used to get to that 
 conclusion, based on the facts in this message--the quoted text.  Please let 
 me know what, if any, problems exist in my reasoning.
 
 I'm not interested in how you're turning and twisting the words ---
 maybe it helps if you keep in mind that using language is different
 from using mathematics or a programming language. The fact remains

I agree with Boyd in his understanding of your post. What is the use of
language if you say one thing that a reasonable person would understand
but meant something completely different? If a reasonable receiver does
not understand the message as intended, the communication was faulty.

 that I don't have the mysql server installed and that kde isn't
 working anymore after the update.

What follows from Boyd's post is that mysql is not necessary for a
working system and he disagrees with you that removal of mysql breaks
KE. Proof: I have the new KDE working fine in Debian Testing even after
having removed mysql server. So the fact is that mysql is not necessary
for a working KDE unless you are using package which require it.

Perhaps you should see what exactly is broken. I tried to help in this
thread by posting the log of packages that I removed while removing
mysql. From your sole response to that post, I gather your kdm is not
working. Try gdm instead, I use it without any problem. Other than that,
you didn't report any issues to the resolution I posted so I thought you
had it all working again.


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Re: KDE is now broken (Fwd: Heads-up: KDE4 hitting testing tonight (UTC) )

In 20090527205951.gp5...@cat.rubenette.is-a-geek.com, lee wrote:
On Wed, May 27, 2009 at 12:10:54PM -0500, Boyd Stephen Smith Jr. wrote:
 It's
 something hidden from the user instead of telling them about
 it. That's never a good idea.

 Actually, according to actual HCI studies it is often better to hide
 things from a user instead of telling them about it.

What means better in that case?

They are able to complete a series of tasks in less time or with less 
prompting/guidance.

 Now, once the user starts
 looking for that setting, it should be available, but too many settings
 and too much explanatory text confuses rather than enlightens.

Whatever you do, there's nothing that helps against stupidity.

And being confused by an over-abundance of options is not a sign of 
stupidity.  While the number of facts one can track shows some 
correspondence to financial success, academic success, and the one-size-
fits-all monstrosity that is IQ, it is much lower than the number of options 
that will fit on a 800x600 panel, even for the very 
successful/intelligent.

   These same issues can be hidden when using RDBMS backed, but the
   translations are usually much faster.
 If you have to make so many translations of a configuration file
 that nowadays' computers run into performance problems when doing so,
 I don't consider the file as a human readable configuration file
 anymore.
 I never said the translations were causing performance issues.  I
 said they'd be faster with an SQL backend.  That is definitely *not*
 the reason Akonadi wants an SQL backend.
Then it's irrelevant that translations can be usually much faster
when an RDBMS is used.

Okay, but it is not irrelevant that the translations can still be hidden 
from the user so there's no reason to worry about minor migration issues 
with it anymore that with plain-text files.

 They are quite readable.  Usually a translation is just changing the
 name/spelling of a key.  But, it might be converting a value that is a
 list into multiple stanzas or something like that.  Generally, they
 leave the values alone, but they are the migration path from 'old'
 configuration files to 'new' configuration files.

So these translations need to be done only once?

Yes.  They are preformed on the file and then a value is updated with the 
name of the translation to prevent it from being run against the file again 
(and for dependency tracking).

  Try to read
  your current kde configuration in 35 years, or try to read your data
  from the the RDBMS you're currently using in 35 years. You'll find
  that it won't be easy.
  I hope so.  I plan on using different, hopefully better, software by
  then.
 And what if you need the information stored in it?
 I won't.  I'll export the data as I abandon that software.  Actually,
 I'll export the data before I abandon the software so I can import it
 into the new software and test it.
That is a possibility, but it requires to plan for it and to work on
it, and mistakes can be made. It would be easier if that wasn't
required.

Change happens.  Trying to prevent it is futile.  Instead, focus on shaping 
the future into something you like better than the present.
-- 
Boyd Stephen Smith Jr.   ,= ,-_-. =.
b...@iguanasuicide.net  ((_/)o o(\_))
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Re: KDE is now broken (Fwd: Heads-up: KDE4 hitting testing tonight (UTC) )

In 20090527210120.gq5...@cat.rubenette.is-a-geek.com, lee wrote:
On Wed, May 27, 2009 at 09:11:38PM +0300, Dotan Cohen wrote:
  You might check out the database component of KOffice 2.
  It is supposed to be a bit friendlier than the OO.o
  database component and should, by default, use an SQLite database
  embedded in the document.
 Kexi hasn't made it into Koffice 2.0. We are still hopeful for Koffice
 2.1.
But it's in the version that comes with testing. It looks promising,
but it always crashed when I wanted to save a query.

D'Oh, sorry about the poor recommendation.  I really do have high hopes for 
KOffice.
-- 
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Re: KDE is now broken (Fwd: Heads-up: KDE4 hitting testing tonight (UTC) )

2009-05-27 Thread Brendan

 Where do you get a good case for $20? Shop around a bit and you'll
 find that useable ones start at about $250, and good ones cost more
 --- if you can find one at all.

250? Is this a gold case?


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Re: KDE is now broken (Fwd: Heads-up: KDE4 hitting testing tonight (UTC) )

2009-05-27 Thread JoeHill

Brendan wrote: 

  Where do you get a good case for $20? Shop around a bit and you'll
  find that useable ones start at about $250, and good ones cost more
  --- if you can find one at all.  
 
 250? Is this a gold case?

Nah, Adamantium ;)

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Re: KDE is now broken (Fwd: Heads-up: KDE4 hitting testing tonight (UTC) )

 Cooling, circuit breakers, relaxed duty cycle. And prayer, if you're into 
 that.

 If you want to keep it running all the time ... Even if you don't, you
 might have a problem when you need spare parts.


As mentioned previously, LUGs and geeks in general are usually a great
place to find old parts. It might take a week until the next LUG
meeting, but you can find the parts. Ebay, Craigslist, and
universities might be good places to look as well. Or ask here.

 If the issue is saving $20 on a case, then you are just $20 short of
 having a working solution. Sounds good to me.

 Where do you get a good case for $20? Shop around a bit and you'll
 find that useable ones start at about $250, and good ones cost more

You should start looking for a new place to buy cases. Or just screw
the motherboard to a sheet of plywood for a temporary fix, I've done
that!

-- 
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http://gibberish.co.il


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Re: KDE is now broken (Fwd: Heads-up: KDE4 hitting testing tonight (UTC) )

 Actually, according to actual HCI studies it is often better to hide things
 from a user instead of telling them about it.

 What means better in that case?


Really, this does sound ridiculous. We've all heard about the woman
who frees up disk space by removing the folders that she doesn't use,
such as C:/windows but the readers of this list are _not_ that
audience.

 Now, once the user starts
 looking for that setting, it should be available, but too many settings and
 too much explanatory text confuses rather than enlightens.

 Whatever you do, there's nothing that helps against stupidity.


Again, this type of study does not seem suitable for this list.

 And what if you need the information stored in it?

 I won't.  I'll export the data as I abandon that software.  Actually, I'll
 export the data before I abandon the software so I can import it into the
 new software and test it.

 That is a possibility, but it requires to plan for it and to work on
 it, and mistakes can be made. It would be easier if that wasn't
 required.


Or, it requires a ggod backup, worst case scenario. You do have one, right?

-- 
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http://gibberish.co.il


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Re: KDE is now broken (Fwd: Heads-up: KDE4 hitting testing tonight (UTC) )

 Nah, Adamantium ;)


Sounds like Unobtainium to me.

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Re: KDE is now broken (Fwd: Heads-up: KDE4 hitting testing tonight (UTC) )

2009-05-26 Thread lee

On Mon, May 25, 2009 at 01:17:16PM -0500, Boyd Stephen Smith Jr. wrote:
 In 20090525163904.gb5...@cat.rubenette.is-a-geek.com, lee wrote:
 On Sun, May 24, 2009 at 03:28:50PM -0500, Boyd Stephen Smith Jr. wrote:
  In 20090524145214.ga16...@cat.rubenette.is-a-geek.com, lee wrote:
  I
  don't want to run an akonadi server either, whatever that is.
  Oh, then you don't want to run those parts of KDE; They require a
  connection to an Akonadi server.  They've been scheduled to since before
  KDE 4.0 was available.
 Maybe not. I'd be fine without them, if it would work without --- but
 it doesn't.
 
 I said it before, and I'll say it again: That is just not true.  I was 
 careful 
 in my package selection and I have a working KDE 4.2 (including my must-have 
 kmail) and I do not have a mysql server installed.
 
 KDE 4.2 can work without Akonadi, with a minimum of fuss.

It is true, just a matter of fact. KDE is broken on my computer since
the last update I did. It doesn't matter if it's possible to get it to
work without a mysql server. I'm not going to re-install everything to
try to make it work without.

Careful package selection was a good thing until a some years ago; now
there are too many packages and dependencies to keep that up. You
probably still can do that if you're willing to spend a week or two or
more to read all the descriptions, check the dependencies and maybe
implement your own, but it's no longer practically feasible.

You could as well assume that the result of careful package selection
has been that KDE is now broken because I refused to install the mysql
server.

  Not if the file format was public.  I can understanding not using a format
  that can't be processed without a particular piece of software, but the
  on- disk format used by MySQL is public information.  You don't have to
  use MySQL to access.  You can write your own software or pay someone to
  write the software for you without the blessing or control of MySQL.
 Where do you find the needed information in 20 years?
 
 On your HD, or wherever you chose to store it.  If the information is public 
 you can copy it to any location and translate it to any form you need to.

Yeah, if you want to make a full time job out of tracking all changes
made over time to the storage formats of all software you're using to
store something and if you have an unlimited amount of storage space
and backup space available and if you can store and maintain all the
information (including keeping it in readable form) over at least 30
years, that might be a possibility. But it isn't practically feasible.

 And what if you
 want to access the stored information but you don't want to wait a
 year or two before you were eventually able to figure out what format
 was used to store it and to create software allowing you to retrieve
 the information?
 
 Use the old software.  It might not run on the latest release of Debian, but 
 it should run on whatever version you had before.  Older releases are 
 maintained in the archive, and you can archive whatever you need yourself if 
 you don't want to depend on the Debian infrastructure.
 
 No one is forced to upgrade, but support does dwindle for a product over time.

Where do you find the old software? How do you get it to run on
contemporary hardware? Or do you suggest to rent old hardware from a
museum to install 15 or 20 year old software on it to make your data
accessible? Or are you suggesting to rent storage space to pile up old
hardware? That would require you to buy everything new, including hard
disks, for example, when upgrading your hardware, and that's something
I never did. And who guarantees that 30 year old hardware you kept in
storage will still work when you need it?

 And BTW, it's not only wasting resources to have a mysql server
 installed that you don't need and don't use, it's also about making
 things more complicated and time consuming when you have a mysql
 server that eventually needs to be adminstered and that you eventually
 have to figure out a way to make backups for?
 
 IIRC, Akonadi uses the embeded MySQL by default.  It stores data and 
 settings in your $HOME so it would be naturally included in any backup.  It 
 also is fully administered by the Akonadi server itself.

Then why do the dependencies require that a mysql server be installed?

 What if you use
 stable and from one distribution to another, or the one after the
 next, they change something about mysql and you suddenly find yourself
 with the problem of having to somehow convert your data to be able to
 use it with the new mysql version?
 
 Data translation issues can, have, and will happen even if plain
 text files.

After a very long time maybe, yes. I haven't said they solve the
problem or that I had a solution. The only thing I can do is to use
something that appears to be very likeley still easily readable after
a long time. I can still read text files that are 15 years old. Maybe
I can't read them anymore in

Re: KDE is now broken (Fwd: Heads-up: KDE4 hitting testing tonight (UTC) )

In 20090526142918.gc5...@cat.rubenette.is-a-geek.com, lee wrote:
On Mon, May 25, 2009 at 01:17:16PM -0500, Boyd Stephen Smith Jr. wrote:
 In 20090525163904.gb5...@cat.rubenette.is-a-geek.com, lee wrote:
 On Sun, May 24, 2009 at 03:28:50PM -0500, Boyd Stephen Smith Jr. wrote:
  In 20090524145214.ga16...@cat.rubenette.is-a-geek.com, lee wrote:
  I
  don't want to run an akonadi server either, whatever that is.
  Oh, then you don't want to run those parts of KDE; They require a
  connection to an Akonadi server.  They've been scheduled to since
  before KDE 4.0 was available.
 Maybe not. I'd be fine without them, if it would work without --- but
 it doesn't.
 I said it before, and I'll say it again: That is just not true.  I was
 careful in my package selection and I have a working KDE 4.2 (including
 my must-have kmail) and I do not have a mysql server installed.

 KDE 4.2 can work without Akonadi, with a minimum of fuss.
It is true, just a matter of fact.

No, it is not.

Your statement: KDE 4.2 doesn't work without the parts that want an Akonadi 
server.  Fact: I have a working installation of KDE 4.2 sans Akonadi.  
Therefore, your statement is untrue.

A more correct statement would be: I can't get KDE 4.2 to work without 
Akonadi and no one can tell me how; there's at least one prat that has it 
working but he doesn't seem to know how to get from his configuration to 
mine.
-- 
Boyd Stephen Smith Jr.   ,= ,-_-. =.
b...@iguanasuicide.net  ((_/)o o(\_))
ICQ: 514984 YM/AIM: DaTwinkDaddy `-'(. .)`-'
http://iguanasuicide.net/\_/



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Re: KDE is now broken (Fwd: Heads-up: KDE4 hitting testing tonight (UTC) )

2009-05-26 Thread lee

On Mon, May 25, 2009 at 01:21:19PM -0500, Boyd Stephen Smith Jr. wrote:
 In 20090525163904.gb5...@cat.rubenette.is-a-geek.com, lee wrote:
  If you don't want to run any servers then you don't want to run Gnome
  (ORBit = CORBA server), KDE 3 (dcopserver), Xfce (notifications go via the
  DBus server) or X11 (xorg is an X11 server).
 
 Who says that I don't want to run any servers?
 
 I inferred that based on this:
 
 In 20090524145214.ga16...@cat.rubenette.is-a-geek.com, lee wrote:
 It doesn't matter to me which RDMBS is
 needed because I have none installed, and before I'm not needing one
 for something, I'm not going to install one --- and maybe even then I
 might not because my computer is a workstation and not a server.
 
 I interpreted that to mean servers are not appropriate for my computer 
 because it isn't a server.  I hope I showed by example how servers are not 
 foreign to your standard home PC.

Ok, I see what you mean. I do have servers running as much as they are
needed/wanted for what I'm doing and as much as they don't require an
undue amount of resources. But I don't need an RDBMS, no matter which
one, as well as I don't need the kde application(s) that would require
one. Therefore, it doesn't matter which RDBMS kde would require.

Even if I wanted to run an RDBMS because it's needed for something I
want, I'd think at least twice about it and look for another solution
first to keep the resource usage low: There are some games I want to
play, and I don't want to have to try stopping things that are running
before I can play them smoothly. I also don't want to set up another
computer to use as a server for things like that. That is what
considering my comp a workstation is about, and it doesn't mean that
I wouldn't run any servers at all on it. It means I want to keep it
useable for what I'm doing rather than burden it unnecessarily.

On a side note, what I could use is a Linux version of MS Access. That
really is one very useful tool, and even that doesn't require an
RDBMS. Unfortunately, the database part of openoffice just sucks.


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Re: KDE is now broken (Fwd: Heads-up: KDE4 hitting testing tonight (UTC) )

In 20090526142918.gc5...@cat.rubenette.is-a-geek.com, lee wrote:
On Mon, May 25, 2009 at 01:17:16PM -0500, Boyd Stephen Smith Jr. wrote:
 Use the old software.  It might not run on the latest release of Debian,
 but it should run on whatever version you had before.  Older releases
 are maintained in the archive, and you can archive whatever you need
 yourself if you don't want to depend on the Debian infrastructure.

 No one is forced to upgrade, but support does dwindle for a product over
 time.

Where do you find the old software?

Older releases are maintained in the archive

How do you get it to run on
contemporary hardware?

Run it on the hardware you were running it on before.  We are talking about 
accessing the data for the purpose of migration; you should still have the 
hardware (and software) you are migrating from.

Or do you suggest to rent old hardware from a
museum to install 15 or 20 year old software on it to make your data
accessible?

Find your local LUG and ask around.  I can virtually guarantee that there 
someone with a storage unit full of old hardware they are keeping for some 
reason.  Even better if you have a local FreeGeek.

Or are you suggesting to rent storage space to pile up old
hardware?

If that's what you need to keep your data safe.  I certainly don't suggest 
running on hardware platform that you can't maintain (which includes 
acquiring replacement parts).

That would require you to buy everything new, including hard
disks, for example, when upgrading your hardware, and that's something
I never did.

That's not true.  It might mean you have to multi-task hardware during the 
transition, but I generally don't buy everything new either.  Gradual 
upgrades are much preferable.

And who guarantees that 30 year old hardware you kept in
storage will still work when you need it?

You do.
-- 
Boyd Stephen Smith Jr.   ,= ,-_-. =.
b...@iguanasuicide.net  ((_/)o o(\_))
ICQ: 514984 YM/AIM: DaTwinkDaddy `-'(. .)`-'
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Re: KDE is now broken (Fwd: Heads-up: KDE4 hitting testing tonight (UTC) )

In 20090526144742.gd5...@cat.rubenette.is-a-geek.com, lee wrote:
On a side note, what I could use is a Linux version of MS Access. That
really is one very useful tool, and even that doesn't require an
RDBMS.

Actually, it does.  The Microsoft Jet Database Engine is a required part of 
an MS Access install.  MS Excel might even require it at this point.

You might check out the database component of KOffice 2 (still in beta, 
IIRC).  It is supposed to be a bit friendlier than the OO.o database 
component and should, by default, use an SQLite database embedded in the 
document.
-- 
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b...@iguanasuicide.net  ((_/)o o(\_))
ICQ: 514984 YM/AIM: DaTwinkDaddy `-'(. .)`-'
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Re: KDE is now broken (Fwd: Heads-up: KDE4 hitting testing tonight (UTC) )

In 20090526144742.gd5...@cat.rubenette.is-a-geek.com, lee wrote:
Even if I wanted to run an RDBMS because it's needed for something I
want, I'd think at least twice about it and look for another solution
first to keep the resource usage low: There are some games I want to
play, and I don't want to have to try stopping things that are running
before I can play them smoothly.

SQLite doesn't run a daemon at all.  While there is an binary that 
functional as a simple SQL Shell, all the real RDBMS work is handled by 
the shared library.

Of course, there would still be the Akonadi server hanging around -- but it 
should only wake up on demand when applications need services.
-- 
Boyd Stephen Smith Jr.   ,= ,-_-. =.
b...@iguanasuicide.net  ((_/)o o(\_))
ICQ: 514984 YM/AIM: DaTwinkDaddy `-'(. .)`-'
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Re: KDE is now broken (Fwd: Heads-up: KDE4 hitting testing tonight (UTC) )

In 20090526142918.gc5...@cat.rubenette.is-a-geek.com, lee wrote:
On Mon, May 25, 2009 at 01:17:16PM -0500, Boyd Stephen Smith Jr. wrote:
 In 20090525163904.gb5...@cat.rubenette.is-a-geek.com, lee wrote:
 And BTW, it's not only wasting resources to have a mysql server
 installed that you don't need and don't use, it's also about making
 things more complicated and time consuming when you have a mysql
 server that eventually needs to be adminstered and that you eventually
 have to figure out a way to make backups for?
 IIRC, Akonadi uses the embeded MySQL by default.  It stores data and
 settings in your $HOME so it would be naturally included in any backup. 
 It also is fully administered by the Akonadi server itself.
Then why do the dependencies require that a mysql server be installed?

As I understand it:
Because the embedded MySQL server is very much still a server.  You do 
*not* have to start the daemon via the init script, and it doesn't listen on 
public ports, but it needs all the server components.

 What if you use
 stable and from one distribution to another, or the one after the
 next, they change something about mysql and you suddenly find yourself
 with the problem of having to somehow convert your data to be able to
 use it with the new mysql version?

 Data translation issues can, have, and will happen even if plain
 text files.
 KDE generally hides this from the user.  For example, the KDE
 configuration API allows the developer to register a translation that is
 required (maybe something simple like a configuration key rename) and
 what translations it depends on.  The configuration file will contain a
 list of the translations already applied to it and the API will
 automatically apply whatever is needed to update the file.

 These same issues can be hidden when using RDBMS backed, but the
 translations are usually much faster.

Both of these won't be human readable, plain text files.

Actually, yes.  KDE Configuration files are human-readable, plain-text 
files.  They aren't free-form prose.  For the most part they follow the 
.desktop file specification put together by XDG.

The application writers can abuse them to store binary data, but that's true 
of any plain-text format.

Try to read
your current kde configuration in 35 years, or try to read your data
from the the RDBMS you're currently using in 35 years. You'll find
that it won't be easy.

I hope so.  I plan on using different, hopefully better, software by then.
-- 
Boyd Stephen Smith Jr.   ,= ,-_-. =.
b...@iguanasuicide.net  ((_/)o o(\_))
ICQ: 514984 YM/AIM: DaTwinkDaddy `-'(. .)`-'
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Re: KDE is now broken (Fwd: Heads-up: KDE4 hitting testing tonight (UTC) )

2009-05-26 Thread John Hasler

lee wrote:
 Even if I wanted to run an RDBMS because it's needed for something I
 want, I'd think at least twice about it and look for another solution
 first to keep the resource usage low: There are some games I want to
 play, and I don't want to have to try stopping things that are running
 before I can play them smoothly.

A database server that isn't doing anything doesn't use any resources.
-- 
John Hasler


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Re: KDE is now broken (Fwd: Heads-up: KDE4 hitting testing tonight (UTC) )

2009-05-26 Thread JoeHill

lee wrote: 

 There seems to be too much windoze thinking entering Debian: Hide
 everything from the users, take control of their computers away from
 them, make things unfixable --- and the next step is to provide them
 with only crappy software. I'm beginning to become more and more
 unhappy with Debian. The quality has gone down quite a bit already. If
 they keep going this way, we'll all be using windoze in about 10
 years.

Ha! I swear, I think I remember someone saying this before. I think it was...
about ten years ago ;)

Man, if I had a dollar...

-- 
J


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Re: KDE is now broken (Fwd: Heads-up: KDE4 hitting testing tonight (UTC) )

2009-05-26 Thread Tzafrir Cohen

On Tue, May 26, 2009 at 11:06:48AM -0500, John Hasler wrote:
 lee wrote:
  Even if I wanted to run an RDBMS because it's needed for something I
  want, I'd think at least twice about it and look for another solution
  first to keep the resource usage low: There are some games I want to
  play, and I don't want to have to try stopping things that are running
  before I can play them smoothly.
 
 A database server that isn't doing anything doesn't use any resources.

Memory?

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tzaf...@cohens.org.il ||  best
ICQ# 16849754 || friend


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Re: KDE is now broken (Fwd: Heads-up: KDE4 hitting testing tonight (UTC) )

2009-05-26 Thread marc

lee said:

 Both of these won't be human readable, plain text files. Try to read
 your current kde configuration in 35 years, or try to read your data
 from the the RDBMS you're currently using in 35 years. You'll find that
 it won't be easy.

 Maybe software developers need to wake up and find a solution for
 keeping data readable and useable for long periods of time --- if that's
 possible at all.

Problem solved:

  New memory material may hold data for one billion years.

  http://www.physorg.com/news162061022.html

-- 
Best,
Marc

Change requires small steps.


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Re: KDE is now broken (Fwd: Heads-up: KDE4 hitting testing tonight (UTC) )