Parenthesis or square brackets and "was" (was: Re: Monthly FAQ for Debian-user mailing list (last modified 20240501))
On 6/1/24 23:02, Max Nikulin wrote: On 02/06/2024 02:59, Andrew M.A. Cater wrote: If you change subject or emphasis in mid-thread, please change the subject line on your email accordingly so that this can be clearly seen. For example: New question [WAS Old topic] Are square brackets intentional here? E.g. thunderbird strips "(was:" subject part from response subject. This is true. I (on Thunderbird 115) had to restore the subject line after Thunderbird modified it. Do you know of a plugin or weird setting to make it stop doing that? Web searches were fruitless. -- A mob with torches and pitchforks approaches the castle. "Sire, the peasants are revolting!" "Yeah, disgusting, aren't they?"
Re: Parenthesis or square brackets and "was" (was: Re: Monthly FAQ for Debian-user mailing list (last modified 20240501))
On Sun, Jun 02, 2024 at 10:02:58AM +0700, Max Nikulin wrote: > On 02/06/2024 02:59, Andrew M.A. Cater wrote: > > If you change subject > > or emphasis in mid-thread, please change the subject line on your email > > accordingly so that this can be clearly seen. > > > > For example: New question [WAS Old topic] > > Are square brackets intentional here? E.g. thunderbird strips "(was:" > subject part from response subject. Perhaps Gnus may treat square brackets > as well. I have no idea concerning other mailers. > No - the square brackets are an example :) Square brackets can be noticed, perhaps, and the effort to type them may be worth the distinctiveness, but what I really wanted was to make the distinction visually clear so that the reader would notice it.. I routinely type ammedments to the subject in square brackets and add WAS in upper case so that this is immediately apparent in a long email thread. Whatever your mailer does is fine but it needs to stand out clearly. Similarly, whenever I reply to something on behalf of the Community Team, I add that in square brackets to show that it is distinct. New topic - brackets or parentheses (WAS: Debian-user Monthly FAQ) might be appropriate here. So that email subjects don't go beyond 72 characters, you may always need to abbreviate the amended subject. [WAS: WAS: WAS (previous subject)] would be too many levels of off-topic discussion - but this discussion is still, just about, on topic. All the very best, as ever, Andy Cater (amaca...@debian.org) > Sorry for violating the rule. Curious users may test if their MUAs recognize > "(was: ...)" in the subject and remove old part. > > >
Re: Parenthesis or square brackets and "was" (was: Re: Monthly FAQ for Debian-user mailing list (last modified 20240501))
On Sun, Jun 02, 2024 at 10:02:58AM +0700, Max Nikulin wrote: > On 02/06/2024 02:59, Andrew M.A. Cater wrote: > > If you change subject > > or emphasis in mid-thread, please change the subject line on your email > > accordingly so that this can be clearly seen. > > > > For example: New question [WAS Old topic] > > Are square brackets intentional here? E.g. thunderbird strips "(was:" > subject part from response subject. Perhaps Gnus may treat square brackets > as well. I have no idea concerning other mailers. My despair and agony increase every time I hear about some new abomination that people's mail user agents perform by default. *face palms, shakes head*
Parenthesis or square brackets and "was" (was: Re: Monthly FAQ for Debian-user mailing list (last modified 20240501))
On 02/06/2024 02:59, Andrew M.A. Cater wrote: If you change subject or emphasis in mid-thread, please change the subject line on your email accordingly so that this can be clearly seen. For example: New question [WAS Old topic] Are square brackets intentional here? E.g. thunderbird strips "(was:" subject part from response subject. Perhaps Gnus may treat square brackets as well. I have no idea concerning other mailers. Sorry for violating the rule. Curious users may test if their MUAs recognize "(was: ...)" in the subject and remove old part.
Monthly FAQ for Debian-user mailing list (last modified 20240501)
Debian-user is a mailing list provided for support for Debian users, and to facilitate discussion on relevant topics. Codes of Conduct * The list is a Debian communication forum. As such, it is subject to both the Debian mailing list Code of Conduct and the main Debian Code of Conduct https://www.debian.org/MailingLists/#codeofconduct https://www.debian.org/code_of_conduct Guidelines for this list Some guidelines which may help explain how the list should work: Language * The language on this mailing list is English. There may be other mailing lists that are language-specific, for example, debian-user-french or debian-user-catalan * It is common for users to be redirected here from other lists, for example, from debian-project. It is also common for people to be posting here when English is not their primary language. Please be considerate. Answering questions and contributing to discussions constructively == * This is a fairly busy mailing list but even so you may have to wait some time for an answer - please be patient. * Help and advice on this list is provided by volunteers in their own time. It is common for there to be different opinions or answers provided. * It is not necessary to answer every post on the mailing list. * Be constructive in your responses. It may be that somebody else answers a question before you - if so, you should not reply simply in order to get the last word in, only reply if you can add useful information. Off-topic posts === * Please try to stay on topic. * Off-topic posts will happen occasionally as threads wander. Don't reply to them to make them carry on. * If you wish to introduce an off-topic subject that might be of interest to the wider list, start a new thread and preface the title with [OT]. * There is no debian-offtopic mailing list: please don't try to start one. Partisan topics and political arguments === * Arguments for the sake of it are not welcome here. * Partisan political / religious / cultural arguments do not belong here either. Debian's community is world wide; do not assume others will agree with your views or need to read them on a Debian list. Editing and answering mailing list posts * It is helpful to write meaningful subject lines. If you change subject or emphasis in mid-thread, please change the subject line on your email accordingly so that this can be clearly seen. For example: New question [WAS Old topic] * It may also be useful for someone to post a summary email from time to time to explain long threads. * Before posting, it may be useful to check your post for spelling mistakes and scan it for redundancy, duplicate words and redundancy. * Clear replies and a short mailing list thread are much easier to read and follow than long threads. * If you are replying to a post, please reply in-line if possible and cut out extra text that is not relevant to your point. Private replies and responding to posts off-list * Please post answers back to the list so others can benefit: private conversations don't benefit people who may only be following along on the list or reading the archives later. * We're only human: you may want to respond to someone off-list to make a point (or to wish them Happy Birthday / comment that you haven't seen them for a long time). We're also a community and the people you find on the list may become familiar friends BUT * Posting outside the list can be unhelpful: bad behaviour outside the lists can't easily be dealt with and will be invisible. You may inadvertently leak personal information by posting a private reply back to the list. If you *do* want to post outside the list - make it clear that you have done so at the top of the message. If someone replies to you privately and you think that this should go back to the list - ask them to post it to the list - do not just do so on their behalf without checking. I can't see what I want here - help me! === * It is often useful to look through the archives to see whether the issue you wish to raise or a similar issue has been raised before by someone else. The top level link to the archives of this list is at https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/ organised by year, then month. * Although there are only 20 or 30 regular contributors, there may be a couple of thousand readers in the background. Nobody is a mind reader, nobody can sit beside you. Please help by providing useful details if asked, especially which version of Debian you are running. I'm not using Debian but ... * Strictly, discussions of other distributions
Monthly FAQ for Debian-user mailing list [Modified 20240408]
Debian-user is a mailing list provided for support for Debian users, and to facilitate discussion on relevant topics. Codes of Conduct * The list is a Debian communication forum. As such, it is subject to both the Debian mailing list Code of Conduct and the main Debian Code of Conduct https://www.debian.org/MailingLists/#codeofconduct https://www.debian.org/code_of_conduct Guidelines for this list Some guidelines which may help explain how the list should work: Language * The language on this mailing list is English. There may be other mailing lists that are language-specific, for example, debian-user-french or debian-user-catalan * It is common for users to be redirected here from other lists, for example, from debian-project. It is also common for people to be posting here when English is not their primary language. Please be considerate. Answering questions and contributing to discussions constructively == * This is a fairly busy mailing list but even so you may have to wait some time for an answer - please be patient. * Help and advice on this list is provided by volunteers in their own time. It is common for there to be different opinions or answers provided. * It is not necessary to answer every post on the mailing list. * Be constructive in your responses. It may be that somebody else answers a question before you - if so, you should not reply simply in order to get the last word in, only reply if you can add useful information. Off-topic posts === * Please try to stay on topic. * Off-topic posts will happen occasionally as threads wander. Don't reply to them to make them carry on. * If you wish to introduce an off-topic subject that might be of interest to the wider list, start a new thread and preface the title with [OT]. * There is no debian-offtopic mailing list: please don't try to start one. Partisan topics and political arguments === * Arguments for the sake of it are not welcome here. * Partisan political / religious / cultural arguments do not belong here either. Debian's community is world wide; do not assume others will agree with your views or need to read them on a Debian list. Editing and answering mailing list posts * It is helpful to write meaningful subject lines. If you change subject or emphasis in mid-thread, please change the subject line on your email accordingly so that this can be clearly seen. For example: New question [WAS Old topic] * It may also be useful for someone to post a summary email from time to time to explain long threads. * Before posting, it may be useful to check your post for spelling mistakes and scan it for redundancy, duplicate words and redundancy. * Clear replies and a short mailing list thread are much easier to read and follow than long threads. * If you are replying to a post, please reply in-line if possible and cut out extra text that is not relevant to your point. Private replies and responding to posts off-list * Please post answers back to the list so others can benefit: private conversations don't benefit people who may only be following along on the list or reading the archives later. * We're only human: you may want to respond to someone off-list to make a point (or to wish them Happy Birthday / comment that you haven't seen them for a long time). We're also a community and the people you find on the list may become familiar friends BUT * Posting outside the list can be unhelpful: bad behaviour outside the lists can't easily be dealt with and will be invisible. You may inadvertently leak personal information by posting a private reply back to the list. If you *do* want to post outside the list - make it clear that you have done so at the top of the message. If someone replies to you privately and you think that this should go back to the list - ask them to post it to the list - do not just do so on their behalf without checking. I can't see what I want here - help me! === * It is often useful to look through the archives to see whether the issue you wish to raise or a similar issue has been raised before by someone else. The top level link to the archives of this list is at https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/ organised by year, then month. * Although there are only 20 or 30 regular contributors, there may be a couple of thousand readers in the background. Nobody is a mind reader, nobody can sit beside you. Please help by providing useful details if asked, especially which version of Debian you are running. I'm not using Debian but ... * Strictly, discussions of other distributions
Monthly FAQ for Debian-user mailing list [Modified 20240401]
Debian-user is a mailing list provided for support for Debian users, and to facilitate discussion on relevant topics. Codes of Conduct * The list is a Debian communication forum. As such, it is subject to both the Debian mailing list Code of Conduct and the main Debian Code of Conduct https://www.debian.org/MailingLists/#codeofconduct https://www.debian.org/code_of_conduct Guidelines for this list Some guidelines which may help explain how the list should work: Language * The language on this mailing list is English. There may be other mailing lists that are language-specific, for example, debian-user-french or debian-user-catalan * It is common for users to be redirected here from other lists, for example, from debian-project. It is also common for people to be posting here when English is not their primary language. Please be considerate. Answering questions and contributing to discussions constructively == * This is a fairly busy mailing list but even so you may have to wait some time for an answer - please be patient. * Help and advice on this list is provided by volunteers in their own time. It is common for there to be different opinions or answers provided. * It is not necessary to answer every post on the mailing list. * Be constructive in your responses. It may be that somebody else answers a question before you - if so, you should not reply simply in order to get the last word in, only reply if you can add useful information. Off-topic posts === * Please try to stay on topic. * Off-topic posts will happen occasionally as threads wander. Don't reply to them to make them carry on. * If you wish to introduce an off-topic subject that might be of interest to the wider list, start a new thread and preface the title with [OT]. * There is no debian-offtopic mailing list: please don't try to start one. Partisan topics and political arguments * Arguments for the sake of it are not welcome here. * Partisan political / religious / cultural arguments do not belong here either. Debian's community is world wide; do not assume others will agree with your views or need to read them on a Debian list. Editing and answering mailing list posts * It is helpful to write meaningful subject lines. If you change subject or emphasis in mid-thread, please change the subject line on your email accordingly so that this can be clearly seen. For example: New question [WAS Old topic] * It may also be useful for someone to post a summary email from time to time to explain long threads. * Before posting, it may be useful to check your post for spelling mistakes and scan it for redundancy, duplicate words and redundancy. * Clear replies and a short mailing list thread are much easier to read and follow than long threads. * If you are replying to a post, please reply in-line if possible and cut out extra text that is not relevant to your point. Private replies and responding to posts off-list * Please post answers back to the list so others can benefit: private conversations don't benefit people who may only be following along on the list or reading the archives later. * We're only human: you may want to respond to someone off-list to make a point (or to wish them Happy Birthday / comment that you haven't seen them for a long time). We're also a community and the people you find on the list may become familiar friends BUT * Posting outside the list can be unhelpful: bad behaviour outside the lists can't easily be dealt with and will be invisible. You may inadvertently leak personal information by posting a private reply back to the list. If you *do* want to post outside the list - make it clear that you have done so at the top of the message. If someone replies to you privately and you think that this should go back to the list - ask them to post it to the list - do not just do so on their behalf without checking. I can't see what I want here - help me! === * It is often useful to look through the archives to see whether the issue you wish to raise or a similar issue has been raised before by someone else. The top level link to the archives of this list is at https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/ organised by year, then month. * Although there are only 20 or 30 regular contributors, there may be a couple of thousand readers in the background. Nobody is a mind reader, nobody can sit beside you. Please help by providing useful details if asked, especially which version of Debian you are running. I'm not using Debian but ... * Strictly, discussions of other distributions are off-topic here. Please note: advice
Re: Spam from the list?
Hi, Andy Smith wrote: > [...] I argue that at present it > isn't a good idea to just reject all DKIM failures like OP's mailbox > provider appears to be doing. Just for the records: The mails in question don't get rejected but rather marked as spam and then get delivered. The currently best theory is that megamailservers.eu adds a header X-Spam-Flag: YES if it perceives DKIM problems, and that the local anti-spam software of the receiver takes this header as reason to alter the subject by the prefix "*SPAM*". Whether it is a good idea to map DKIM failure to a spam marking header is another interesting topic. Original post of this thread with an example of all headers of a mail: https://lists.debian.org/msgid-search/3371640.PXJkl210th@protheus2 Have a nice day :) Thomas
Re: Spam from the list?
Hello, On Fri, Mar 08, 2024 at 02:16:07AM +, Tim Woodall wrote: > And some dkim seems setup with the intention that it should not be used > for mailinglusts: > > DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; > d=dow.land; > s=20210720; > h=From:In-Reply-To:References:Subject:To:Message-Id:Date: > Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Mime-Version:Sender:Reply-To:Cc: > Content-ID:Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From:Resent-Sender: > Resent-To:Resent-Cc:Resent-Message-ID:List-Id:List-Help:List-Unsubscribe: > List-Subscribe:List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; So the thing is that the RFC for DKIM specifies a list of headers to sign and those include ones commonly used by mailing list software so as soon as one of those mails goes through list software, the DKIM signatures get broken. And sadly because that is what is suggested in the RFC, that is also the default setting of Exim in Debian. As a result heaps of messages don't make it through mailing lists with DKIM intact even when the list operator makes some effort to allow it to work (e.g. avoids adding footers or subject tags, just passes the mail through, like debian-user does). > AFAICT, it's a problem at the originator causing failures, either > something wrong with dkim setup or too strict set of headers. Yes. But I think a person whose receiving system outright rejects on DKIM failure might spend their whole lives tracking down and contacting the operators of sending systems to educate them about DKIM, only to be mostly met with disagreement, lack of understanding, or silence. Which is why I argue that at present it isn't a good idea to just reject all DKIM failures like OP's mailbox provider appears to be doing. That sort of setup would only be suitable for someone who doesn't really use email, except for "transactional" mails (password reminders, OTP, etc.) and one-way newsletters. Which admittedly is probably the majority of users - but not OP! > I shall be checking what this does when it gets back to me. One of the > problems with dkim is that you assume it still works, it's hard to know > what others actually see... Adding DMARC and a reporting address gets you far more unwelcome insight into what others do. Thanks, Andy -- https://bitfolk.com/ -- No-nonsense VPS hosting
Re: Spam from the list?
On Thu, 7 Mar 2024, Andy Smith wrote: Hi, On Thu, Mar 07, 2024 at 09:44:51AM +0100, Hans wrote: > --- sninp --- > > Authentication-Results: mail35c50.megamailservers.eu; spf=none > smtp.mailfrom=lists.debian.org > Authentication-Results: mail35c50.megamailservers.eu; > dkim=fail reason="signature verification failed" (2048-bit key) > header.d=debian.org header.i=@debian.org header.b="pDp/TPD5" > Return-Path: > Received: from bendel.debian.org (bendel.debian.org [82.195.75.100]) > by mail35c50.megamailservers.eu (8.14.9/8.13.1) with ESMTP id > 425I9ZEK112497 >for ; Tue, 5 Mar 2024 18:09:37 + > > --- snap --- > > White mails get the dkim=pass and spam mails got dkim=fail (as you see above). A great many legitimate emails will fail DKIM so it is not a great idea to reject every email that does so. I don't think that you are going to have a good time using Internet mailing lists while your mail provider rejects mails with invalid DKIM, so if I were you I'd work on fixing that rather than trying to get everyone involved to correctly use DKIM. And some dkim seems setup with the intention that it should not be used for mailinglusts: DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=dow.land; s=20210720; h=From:In-Reply-To:References:Subject:To:Message-Id:Date: Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Mime-Version:Sender:Reply-To:Cc: Content-ID:Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From:Resent-Sender: Resent-To:Resent-Cc:Resent-Message-ID:List-Id:List-Help:List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe:List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; This one passed on bendel but not when it got to me. Most on debian-user seem ok, debian-devel does seem to get more submissions with broken dkim (based on looking at a random handful on each list) AFAICT, it's a problem at the originator causing failures, either something wrong with dkim setup or too strict set of headers. I shall be checking what this does when it gets back to me. One of the problems with dkim is that you assume it still works, it's hard to know what others actually see...
Re: Spam from the list?
On 07/03/2024 21:04, Andy Smith wrote: Hi, On Thu, Mar 07, 2024 at 09:44:51AM +0100, Hans wrote: --- sninp --- Authentication-Results: mail35c50.megamailservers.eu; spf=none smtp.mailfrom=lists.debian.org Authentication-Results: mail35c50.megamailservers.eu; dkim=fail reason="signature verification failed" (2048-bit key) header.d=debian.org header.i=@debian.org header.b="pDp/TPD5" Return-Path: Received: from bendel.debian.org (bendel.debian.org [82.195.75.100]) by mail35c50.megamailservers.eu (8.14.9/8.13.1) with ESMTP id 425I9ZEK112497 for ; Tue, 5 Mar 2024 18:09:37 + --- snap --- White mails get the dkim=pass and spam mails got dkim=fail (as you see above). A great many legitimate emails will fail DKIM so it is not a great idea to reject every email that does so. I don't think that you are going to have a good time using Internet mailing lists while your mail provider rejects mails with invalid DKIM, so if I were you I'd work on fixing that rather than trying to get everyone involved to correctly use DKIM. In this specific example your problem is that a mail came through the Debian bug tracking system (which pretends to be the original sender) and on the way out was DKIm signed by debian.org and then went through Debian's list servers. Somewhere in there the DKIM signature was broken. I don't rate your chances of getting the operators of bugs.debian.org and lists.debian.org to agree to preserve DKIM since I know at least some of them are severely opposed to DKIM. Your mailbox provider really should not be rejecting everything that has a broken DKIm signature. This email from me will probably have a broken DKIM signature. Thanks, Andy Andy's mail's DKIM looks OK here: Authentication-Results: mx.zohomail.com; dkim=pass; spf=none (zohomail.com: 82.195.75.100 is neither permitted nor denied by domain of lists.debian.org) smtp.mailfrom=bounce-debian-user=john=bunsenlabs@lists.debian.org; dmarc=pass(p=none dis=none) header.from=strugglers.net ARC-Seal: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; t=1709813111; cv=none; d=zohomail.com; s=zohoarc; b=E/0YtYVq6D01XC5ug3vazK169M6jDxoXOO6K7rs6qdKhNHP1XDV7QSLAvwJetsjzooDe39MNSl/160MWgl3URqQ1YhPYZ9aBFQ3DsmN74mTKPiQYOxqx0XzNy1Nemo4oRetVQDrwEGeegQWUBbrxtbD18x8R7Dd9Ps19NxKRMP8= ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=zohomail.com; s=zohoarc; t=1709813111; h=Content-Type:Date:Date:From:From:In-Reply-To:List-Subscribe:List-Post:List-Id:List-Archive:List-Help:List-Unsubscribe:MIME-Version:Message-ID:Resent-Sender:Resent-Date:References:Resent-Message-ID:Resent-From:Subject:Subject:To:To:Message-Id:Reply-To:Cc; bh=ohelUf+wTnNtAeaNpYE6UONuc2euPhvqBvxLaU7Fz7c=; b=MUW94hTSknXpUch7F94usVvulKMrwldlWtoyP582oO6+EMhKaeisaBraF7KE46pdbHyE+AAzf/dn0xPDxNnN+M+RXSbXsQvu7qEIe/+q6fCdppDhql+IMx+U9H+Q61olqpD+JMh9IxFgAUSKme0bLD8NhFKOskvLdtzqq3XeIpg= ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; mx.zohomail.com; dkim=pass; spf=none (zohomail.com: 82.195.75.100 is neither permitted nor denied by domain of lists.debian.org) smtp.mailfrom=bounce-debian-user=john=bunsenlabs@lists.debian.org; dmarc=pass header.from= (p=none dis=none) --snip-- DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=strugglers.net; s=alpha; h=In-Reply-To:Content-Type:MIME-Version:References :Message-ID:Subject:To:From:Date:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Sender:Reply-To:Cc :Content-ID:Content-Description:Resent-To; bh=ohelUf+wTnNtAeaNpYE6UONuc2euPhvqBvxLaU7Fz7c=; b=c5YTQp9JWbbPNuLxDYO19XXqgy KmEiV4tSD2LlNXy4C9/5PPfZ5JGT6U70UQpwIXgC1alHcUyD+LY6JDPEbO33KuWsWr4gvrJCwrq0u HMUc+sKwQgknFeLxa5Jk3a3VFLURsYYec+6Lc9C4WsQB9I+xuv8CmO22xpRRNqB3SWdR7gtHy+Ab8 1UGvqoeEsCAtc5y2dt3uiX6Uy5qYDRbgbSVBhfq4TwjxmyTqmnkT1oG62tW2LavipJDvfR/40weCR B/S7To5h6Lgc/1oLArFNtrtPlfyyRg38maGSj5Jgt9X5Vwdfg187lIla/I4OBjib2pDV5d38QzL7v 4Vz0PYFg==; -- John
Re: Spam from the list?
Hi, On Thu, Mar 07, 2024 at 09:44:51AM +0100, Hans wrote: > --- sninp --- > > Authentication-Results: mail35c50.megamailservers.eu; spf=none > smtp.mailfrom=lists.debian.org > Authentication-Results: mail35c50.megamailservers.eu; > dkim=fail reason="signature verification failed" (2048-bit key) > header.d=debian.org header.i=@debian.org header.b="pDp/TPD5" > Return-Path: > Received: from bendel.debian.org (bendel.debian.org [82.195.75.100]) > by mail35c50.megamailservers.eu (8.14.9/8.13.1) with ESMTP id > 425I9ZEK112497 > for ; Tue, 5 Mar 2024 18:09:37 + > > --- snap --- > > White mails get the dkim=pass and spam mails got dkim=fail (as you see above). A great many legitimate emails will fail DKIM so it is not a great idea to reject every email that does so. I don't think that you are going to have a good time using Internet mailing lists while your mail provider rejects mails with invalid DKIM, so if I were you I'd work on fixing that rather than trying to get everyone involved to correctly use DKIM. In this specific example your problem is that a mail came through the Debian bug tracking system (which pretends to be the original sender) and on the way out was DKIm signed by debian.org and then went through Debian's list servers. Somewhere in there the DKIM signature was broken. I don't rate your chances of getting the operators of bugs.debian.org and lists.debian.org to agree to preserve DKIM since I know at least some of them are severely opposed to DKIM. Your mailbox provider really should not be rejecting everything that has a broken DKIm signature. This email from me will probably have a broken DKIM signature. Thanks, Andy -- https://bitfolk.com/ -- No-nonsense VPS hosting
Re: Spam from the list?
On Thu, Mar 07, 2024 at 09:44:51AM +0100, Hans wrote: > Hi all, > I believe, I found the reason, why mails are marked as spam and others not. > > All spam mails shjow this entry in the header: > > --- sninp --- > > Authentication-Results: mail35c50.megamailservers.eu; spf=none > smtp.mailfrom=lists.debian.org > Authentication-Results: mail35c50.megamailservers.eu; > dkim=fail reason="signature verification failed" (2048-bit key) > header.d=debian.org header.i=@debian.org header.b="pDp/TPD5" > Return-Path: > Received: from bendel.debian.org (bendel.debian.org [82.195.75.100]) > by mail35c50.megamailservers.eu (8.14.9/8.13.1) with ESMTP id > 425I9ZEK112497 > for ; Tue, 5 Mar 2024 18:09:37 + > > --- snap --- > > White mails get the dkim=pass and spam mails got dkim=fail (as you see above). > > However, I am not much experienced with DKIM, but as far as I read, it has > soemthing to do with key exchanges. > > But who must exchange keys? I see also bendel.debian.org and a bounce message. > > Can that be the reason, that bendel.debian.org and megameilservers.eu has > some > problems with the keys? > > On both I can not take a look and have no influence to it, but mayme the > admins > of bendel.debian.org do know more. > > Thanks for reading this, > > Best regards > > Hans Well i think that you would be add to whitelist emails from bendel.debian.org. Thanks, Byunghee from South Korea
Re: Spam from the list?
Hi all, I believe, I found the reason, why mails are marked as spam and others not. All spam mails shjow this entry in the header: --- sninp --- Authentication-Results: mail35c50.megamailservers.eu; spf=none smtp.mailfrom=lists.debian.org Authentication-Results: mail35c50.megamailservers.eu; dkim=fail reason="signature verification failed" (2048-bit key) header.d=debian.org header.i=@debian.org header.b="pDp/TPD5" Return-Path: Received: from bendel.debian.org (bendel.debian.org [82.195.75.100]) by mail35c50.megamailservers.eu (8.14.9/8.13.1) with ESMTP id 425I9ZEK112497 for ; Tue, 5 Mar 2024 18:09:37 + --- snap --- White mails get the dkim=pass and spam mails got dkim=fail (as you see above). However, I am not much experienced with DKIM, but as far as I read, it has soemthing to do with key exchanges. But who must exchange keys? I see also bendel.debian.org and a bounce message. Can that be the reason, that bendel.debian.org and megameilservers.eu has some problems with the keys? On both I can not take a look and have no influence to it, but mayme the admins of bendel.debian.org do know more. Thanks for reading this, Best regards Hans
Re: Spam from the list?
Hans wrote: > HI Brad, > > I do not believe, it is a training problem. Why? Well, your formerly > mail was marked as spam. So I marked it as ham. Now, your second mail > again is marked as spam. > > We know, there is nothing unusual with your mail, but it is again > marked as spam. Even, when I explicity marked your mails as ham! > > Thus the problem is not on my computer. > > I believe, what Thomas said: Megamail or my mailprovider is setting > the X- Spam-Flag to YES, and my spamassassin is recognizing this and > marks this as spam. > > The solution would be, either to make megamails or my provider make > things correctly (but I have no atom bombs to force them) , or delete > my rule, to check the X-Spam-Flag (which I actually do not want). You don't need an atom bomb. Simply contact their support and tell them they appear to be misclassifying mail. If they don't fix the problem then consider changing your provider. Or at least tell them you will :) Also they are still sending the mail to you, so it is your choice whether to actually classify it as spam! Look at your mail program and see what options it has regarding classifying spam. Change it to not respect the particular header you think is causing problems. > Important is: The cause is not at debian server (which is fine!) and > not on my system (which is also fine), but on the provider server. > > To know this, I think we can safely close this issue. > > We have learnt some things (which is always important) and could find > the reason. > > Thank you all for your help and input!!
Re: Spam from the list?
On Wed, 06 Mar 2024 15:36:25 +0100
Hans wrote:
Hello Hans,
>I do not believe, it is a training problem. Why? Well, your formerly
>mail was marked as spam. So I marked it as ham. Now, your second mail
>again is marked as spam.
Spam/ham training is not, IME, a single shot affair. However, as you go
on to say, this particular issue is in all likelihood due to forces
outside of our control.
At which point, I'll hand over to people far more experienced than I.
--
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/ ) "The blindingly obvious is never immediately apparent"
/ _)rad "Is it only me that has a working delete key?"
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Re: Spam from the list?
HI Brad, I do not believe, it is a training problem. Why? Well, your formerly mail was marked as spam. So I marked it as ham. Now, your second mail again is marked as spam. We know, there is nothing unusual with your mail, but it is again marked as spam. Even, when I explicity marked your mails as ham! Thus the problem is not on my computer. I believe, what Thomas said: Megamail or my mailprovider is setting the X- Spam-Flag to YES, and my spamassassin is recognizing this and marks this as spam. The solution would be, either to make megamails or my provider make things correctly (but I have no atom bombs to force them) , or delete my rule, to check the X-Spam-Flag (which I actually do not want). Important is: The cause is not at debian server (which is fine!) and not on my system (which is also fine), but on the provider server. To know this, I think we can safely close this issue. We have learnt some things (which is always important) and could find the reason. Thank you all for your help and input!! Best regards Hans Am Mittwoch, 6. März 2024, 14:24:19 CET schrieb Brad Rogers: > On Wed, 06 Mar 2024 13:53:49 +0100 > Hans wrote: > > Hello Hans, > > >It should be well trained > > Spam training is an ongoing process > > >But until then suddenly the false positives increased from one day to > >another, although I had changed nothing. > > because the spam changes. What's coming now is new, and SA has not > seen it before. You have to train it. Equally, what you consider ham > can change - for example, when you subscribe to a new mailing list that > caters to a subject not encountered by you before because of, say, taking > up a new hobby. > > I've been using my spam filtering set up for years too, and I still get > the occasional false positive. I mark them as ham to (hopefully) > improve spam filtering here.
Re: Spam from the list?
On Wed, 06 Mar 2024 13:53:49 +0100
Hans wrote:
Hello Hans,
>It should be well trained
Spam training is an ongoing process
>But until then suddenly the false positives increased from one day to
>another, although I had changed nothing.
because the spam changes. What's coming now is new, and SA has not
seen it before. You have to train it. Equally, what you consider ham
can change - for example, when you subscribe to a new mailing list that
caters to a subject not encountered by you before because of, say, taking
up a new hobby.
I've been using my spam filtering set up for years too, and I still get
the occasional false positive. I mark them as ham to (hopefully)
improve spam filtering here.
--
Regards _ "Valid sig separator is {dash}{dash}{space}"
/ ) "The blindingly obvious is never immediately apparent"
/ _)rad "Is it only me that has a working delete key?"
If you ain't sticking your knives in me, you will be eventually
Monsoon - Robbie Williams
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Re: *****SPAM***** Re: Spam from the list?
Hans (12024-03-06): > I am using this spamfilter now for several years. It should be well trained > and > almost until about 4 months I never had any problems with it. Hi. It is probably not the reason for you problem now, but it is important to note that in the “several years” since your spam filter was trained, spammers have not stayed idle, they have learned, they have refined their mail to bypass the most common protections. And in turn, protections have evolved to fight the new stealthiness of spammers. Spammers also have changed topics, they used to sell pills, now they sell cryptocurrencies. If your Bayesian filter is trained to recognize mails that sell pills, they might accept mails that seem to talk about technical points of computing. So if your own mail filter has not evolved, it is not surprising that it becomes progressively less efficient. > Am Mittwoch, 6. März 2024, 12:22:53 CET schrieb Brad Rogers: Please remember not to top-post. Regards, -- Nicolas George
Re: Spam from the list?
Hi, Hans wrote: > Re: *SPAM* Re: Spam from the list? > In-Reply-To: <20240306112253.55e25...@earth.stargate.org.uk> referring the mail > > Date: Wed, 6 Mar 2024 11:22:53 + > > From: Brad Rogers > > Message-ID: <20240306112253.55e25...@earth.stargate.org.uk> I assume that this mail appeared with the "*SPAM*" marker in your mailbox. (The currently most plausible theory is that megamailservers.eu adds "X-Spam-Flag: YES" and your local mail processing takes this header as reason to change the subject.) So what does the mail which you received from Brad via debian-user say about "Authentication-Results:" ? Your initial post quoted three such headers. Expect more than one. Have a nice day :) Thomas
Re: *****SPAM***** Re: Spam from the list?
On Wed, Mar 06, 2024 at 01:53:49PM +0100, Hans wrote: > Hi Brad, > > I am using this spamfilter now for several years. It should be well trained > and > almost until about 4 months I never had any problems with it. > > But until then suddenly the false positives increased from one day to > another, > although I had changed nothing. You keep saying that. Your mail provider seems to have changed something. Your spamassassin is seeing those new headers (which, by all comments in this thread are being added on the way from the mailing list to you) and acts accordingly. So nothing weird. Except, perhaps, your mail provider. There are few of them which are not weird these days. Cheers -- t signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: *****SPAM***** Re: Spam from the list?
Hi Brad, I am using this spamfilter now for several years. It should be well trained and almost until about 4 months I never had any problems with it. But until then suddenly the false positives increased from one day to another, although I had changed nothing. And weired: It happened only with mails from the debian forum! This looks weired for me. Other spammails are still well recognized and I get no false positives from any other site. Maybe this is by chance. But mails, which are recognized as spam are looking not fishy in any kind. Even a mail sent by myself to the forum was seen as spam. Of course there is the option, that my own spamfilter has changed, although I did nothing manually, it could not be excluded. I do not believe, it is is a training model, but of course, i will mark white mails as ham manually and see, if the false positives decrease. Will inform you again in a few days. Best Hans Am Mittwoch, 6. März 2024, 12:22:53 CET schrieb Brad Rogers: > On Wed, 06 Mar 2024 11:19:27 +0100 > Hans wrote: > > Hello Hans, > > >Does one see any reason, why this is considered as spam??? > > Further to what Thomas says; You haven't told your spam filtering that > it's ham. If you don't train your spam filters, it's never going to get > any better at detecting what you consider to be ham/spam.
Re: Spam from the list?
Hans wrote: > Hi Thomas, > > > you perhaps subscribed to one of the "Resent-*" lists ? > > > Not as far as I know. > > > > Subject: *SPAM* Bug#1065537: ITP: bleak-retry-connector -- > > > Connector for Bleak Clients that handles transient connection > > > failures > > > > The mark "*SPAM*" does not appear in the archive > > > > This line is set by spamassassin on my own computer, when a spam mail > is marked as spam. Then it will be filtered out. But I can not see, > WHJY it is recognised as apam! > > > https://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/2024/03/msg00076.html > > > > All in all it looks like a legit message, not like spam. > > So the suspect would sit after Debian's mail servers. > > > > The only Received header i see between Debian and you is: > > > Received: from bendel.debian.org (bendel.debian.org > > > [82.195.75.100]) > > > > > > by mail104c50.megamailservers.eu (8.14.9/8.13.1) with > > > ESMTP id 4269vZOl098298 > > > for ; Wed, 6 Mar 2024 09:57:37 > > > + > > > > It looks like either megamailservers.eu or your own processing added > > the spam mark to the subject. > > > Hmm, suspicious. I changed nothing and suddenly many mails from > debian-user (but not all, only some) are recognized as spam. And I > can not see, why they are. Thre are no URLs in it, no suspicous gifs > or any other content. Just quite normal mails. And some are flagged > as spam, some not. Weired. So if it's not you, then it sounds like you need to ask megamailservers.eu why.
Re: Spam from the list?
On Wed, 06 Mar 2024 11:19:27 +0100
Hans wrote:
Hello Hans,
>Does one see any reason, why this is considered as spam???
Further to what Thomas says; You haven't told your spam filtering that
it's ham. If you don't train your spam filters, it's never going to get
any better at detecting what you consider to be ham/spam.
--
Regards _ "Valid sig separator is {dash}{dash}{space}"
/ ) "The blindingly obvious is never immediately apparent"
/ _)rad "Is it only me that has a working delete key?"
People stare like they've seen a ghost
Titanic (My Over) Reaction - 999
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Re: Spam from the list?
Hi, Hans wrote: > I changed nothing and suddenly many mails from debian-user > (but not all, only some) are recognized as spam. But the one you posted here did not come from debian-user. So maybe what changed is an inadverted subscription to one of debian-bugs-d...@lists.debian.org debian-de...@lists.debian.org debian-pyt...@lists.debian.org, w...@debian.org This might have broadened the set of mail senders and thus gives your mail provider opportunities to complain like spotted by Dan Ritter: > Authentication-Results: mail104c50.megamailservers.eu; > dkim=fail reason="signature verification failed" (4096-bit key) > header.d=4angle.com header.i=@4angle.com header.b="bS+3bWmq" "4angle.com" matches the mail address of the bug submitter "Edward Betts ". The shown message headers offer unsubscription from debian-devel: > List-Unsubscribe: > <mailto:debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org?subject=unsubscribe> I.e. to send a mail to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with the subject line unsubscribe Have a nice day :) Thomas
Re: Spam from the list?
Am Mittwoch, 6. März 2024, 12:10:57 CET schrieb Dan Ritter: > > > > X-Spam-Flag: YES > > > > X-SPAM-FACTOR: DKIM > > What sets these two headers? > I do not know. So I asked on this list. What I believe is, that the X-Spam-Flag: YES is set somehow on the way and as spamassin is looking at that is marking the mail as spam. The question is: Where and why is this flag set? Maybe because of the DKIM failure? Sorry, I do not know, and maybe you are right: It might be a problem with megamailservers, who knows. Best Hans
Re: Spam from the list?
Hi Thomas, > you perhaps subscribed to one of the "Resent-*" lists ? > Not as far as I know. > > Subject: *SPAM* Bug#1065537: ITP: bleak-retry-connector -- > > Connector for Bleak Clients that handles transient connection failures > > The mark "*SPAM*" does not appear in the archive > This line is set by spamassassin on my own computer, when a spam mail is marked as spam. Then it will be filtered out. But I can not see, WHJY it is recognised as apam! > https://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/2024/03/msg00076.html > > All in all it looks like a legit message, not like spam. > So the suspect would sit after Debian's mail servers. > > The only Received header i see between Debian and you is: > > Received: from bendel.debian.org (bendel.debian.org [82.195.75.100]) > > > > by mail104c50.megamailservers.eu (8.14.9/8.13.1) with ESMTP > > id 4269vZOl098298 > > for ; Wed, 6 Mar 2024 09:57:37 + > > It looks like either megamailservers.eu or your own processing added > the spam mark to the subject. > Hmm, suspicious. I changed nothing and suddenly many mails from debian-user (but not all, only some) are recognized as spam. And I can not see, why they are. Thre are no URLs in it, no suspicous gifs or any other content. Just quite normal mails. And some are flagged as spam, some not. Weired. > > Have a nice day :) > > Thomas Best Hans
Re: Spam from the list?
Hans wrote: > Hi folks, > > during the last moonths I get more mails from the debian-user list marked as > spam than before. Something must have changed. > > I examined the header of the mails, but did not see any unusual. > > Below I send the header of an example of such a mail, maybe you can see the > reason? > > On my computer I am also using spamassassin, and my own score is set to 3.4, > so even so it should not considered as spam. > > X-Spam-Flag: YES > X-SPAM-FACTOR: DKIM What sets these two headers? > Authentication-Results: mail104c50.megamailservers.eu; > dkim=fail reason="signature verification failed" (4096-bit key) > header.d=4angle.com header.i=@4angle.com header.b="bS+3bWmq" That's the source of the DKIM fail. > X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.2 (2018-09-13) on bendel.debian.org > X-Spam-Level: > X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.7 required=4.0 tests=BODY_INCLUDES_PACKAGE, > > DKIM_INVALID,DKIM_SIGNED,HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS,LDO_WHITELIST, > T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no > version=3.4.2 This is debian.org's mailserver checking for spam and deciding that it isn't, even though DKIM is invalid. > X-Virus-Scanned: at lists.debian.org with policy bank en-ht > X-Amavis-Spam-Status: No, score=-8.561 tagged_above=-1 required=5.3 > tests=[BAYES_00=-2, BODY_INCLUDES_PACKAGE=-2, DKIM_INVALID=0.1, > DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.249, > LDO_WHITELIST=-5, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01] > autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no This is debian.org again. > X-Bogosity: Ham, tests=bogofilter, spamicity=0.053994, version=1.2.5 > > --- snap --- > > Does one see any reason, why this is considered as spam??? Whatever set X-SPAM-FLAG: YES is probably at fault. -dsr-
Re: Spam from the list?
Hi, Hans wrote: > during the last moonths I get more mails from the debian-user list marked as > spam than before. > [...] > Below I send the header of an example of such a mail, maybe you can see the > reason? The message does not look like it came to you via debian-user: > X-Original-To: lists-debian-de...@bendel.debian.org > Delivered-To: lists-debian-de...@bendel.debian.org > Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) > by bendel.debian.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B720220598 > for ; Wed, 6 Mar 2024 > [...] > Resent-To: debian-bugs-d...@lists.debian.org > Resent-CC: debian-de...@lists.debian.org, debian-pyt...@lists.debian.org, > w...@debian.org Are you perhaps subscribed to one of the "Resent-*" lists ? > Subject: *SPAM* Bug#1065537: ITP: bleak-retry-connector -- Connector > for Bleak Clients that handles transient connection failures The mark "*SPAM*" does not appear in the archive https://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/2024/03/msg00076.html All in all it looks like a legit message, not like spam. So the suspect would sit after Debian's mail servers. The only Received header i see between Debian and you is: > Received: from bendel.debian.org (bendel.debian.org [82.195.75.100]) > by mail104c50.megamailservers.eu (8.14.9/8.13.1) with ESMTP > id 4269vZOl098298 > for ; Wed, 6 Mar 2024 09:57:37 + It looks like either megamailservers.eu or your own processing added the spam mark to the subject. Have a nice day :) Thomas
Spam from the list?
Hi folks, during the last moonths I get more mails from the debian-user list marked as spam than before. Something must have changed. I examined the header of the mails, but did not see any unusual. Below I send the header of an example of such a mail, maybe you can see the reason? On my computer I am also using spamassassin, and my own score is set to 3.4, so even so it should not considered as spam. Thisis the header: --- snip --- X-Spam-Flag: YES X-SPAM-FACTOR: DKIM X-Envelope-From: bounce-debian-devel=hans.ullrich=loop...@lists.debian.org DMARC-Filter: OpenDMARC Filter v1.4.1 mail104c50.megamailservers.eu 4269vZOl098298 Authentication-Results: mail104c50.megamailservers.eu; dmarc=fail (p=reject dis=none) header.from=4angle.com Authentication-Results: mail104c50.megamailservers.eu; spf=none smtp.mailfrom=lists.debian.org Authentication-Results: mail104c50.megamailservers.eu; dkim=fail reason="signature verification failed" (4096-bit key) header.d=4angle.com header.i=@4angle.com header.b="bS+3bWmq" Return-Path: Received: from bendel.debian.org (bendel.debian.org [82.195.75.100]) by mail104c50.megamailservers.eu (8.14.9/8.13.1) with ESMTP id 4269vZOl098298 for ; Wed, 6 Mar 2024 09:57:37 + Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by bendel.debian.org (Postfix) with QMQP id C9230205B1; Wed, 6 Mar 2024 09:57:27 + (UTC) X-Mailbox-Line: From debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org Wed Mar 6 09:57:27 2024 Old-Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.2 (2018-09-13) on bendel.debian.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.7 required=4.0 tests=BODY_INCLUDES_PACKAGE, DKIM_INVALID,DKIM_SIGNED,HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS,LDO_WHITELIST, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no version=3.4.2 X-Original-To: lists-debian-de...@bendel.debian.org Delivered-To: lists-debian-de...@bendel.debian.org Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by bendel.debian.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B720220598 for ; Wed, 6 Mar 2024 09:57:16 + (UTC) X-Virus-Scanned: at lists.debian.org with policy bank en-ht X-Amavis-Spam-Status: No, score=-8.561 tagged_above=-1 required=5.3 tests=[BAYES_00=-2, BODY_INCLUDES_PACKAGE=-2, DKIM_INVALID=0.1, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.249, LDO_WHITELIST=-5, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from bendel.debian.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (lists.debian.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 2525) with ESMTP id CnwFbHimGCbL for ; Wed, 6 Mar 2024 09:57:08 + (UTC) Received: from buxtehude.debian.org (buxtehude.debian.org [IPv6:2607:f8f0:614:1::1274:39]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange ECDHE (P-256) server-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "buxtehude.debian.org", Issuer "Debian SMTP CA" (not verified)) by bendel.debian.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id F06C820576; Wed, 6 Mar 2024 09:57:07 + (UTC) Received: from debbugs by buxtehude.debian.org with local (Exim 4.94.2) (envelope-from ) id 1rho1I-0040qp-GA; Wed, 06 Mar 2024 09:57:04 + X-Loop: ow...@bugs.debian.org Subject: *SPAM* Bug#1065537: ITP: bleak-retry-connector -- Connector for Bleak Clients that handles transient connection failures Reply-To: Edward Betts , 1065...@bugs.debian.org Resent-From: Edward Betts Resent-To: debian-bugs-d...@lists.debian.org Resent-CC: debian-de...@lists.debian.org, debian-pyt...@lists.debian.org, w...@debian.org X-Loop: ow...@bugs.debian.org Resent-Date: Wed, 06 Mar 2024 09:57:02 + Resent-Message-ID: X-Debian-PR-Message: report 1065537 X-Debian-PR-Package: wnpp X-Debian-PR-Keywords: Received: via spool by sub...@bugs.debian.org id=B.1709718770954021 (code B); Wed, 06 Mar 2024 09:57:02 + Received: (at submit) by bugs.debian.org; 6 Mar 2024 09:52:50 + Received: from 4angle.com ([78.129.222.14]:43828) by buxtehude.debian.org with esmtps (TLS1.3:ECDHE_SECP256R1__RSA_PSS_RSAE_SHA256__AES_256_GCM:256) (Exim 4.94.2) (envelope-from ) id 1rhnxC-0040B7-74 for sub...@bugs.debian.org; Wed, 06 Mar 2024 09:52:50 + DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=4angle.com; s=bridge; h=Content-Type:MIME-Version:Message- ID:Subject:To:From:Date:Sender: Reply-To:Cc:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-ID:Content- Description: Resent-Date:Resent-From:Resent-Sender:Resent-To:Resent-Cc:Resent- Message-ID: In-Reply-To:References:List-Id:List-Help:List-Unsubscribe:List- Subscribe: List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=RkmeLzNl75rHSQ2ewaAj7V5oqKSJrzv7gFE
Mailing list FAQ for Debian-user mailing list (modified 20240201)
Debian-user is a mailing list provided for support for Debian users, and to facilitate discussion on relevant topics. Codes of Conduct * The list is a Debian communication forum. As such, it is subject to both the Debian mailing list Code of Conduct and the main Debian Code of Conduct https://www.debian.org/MailingLists/#codeofconduct https://www.debian.org/code_of_conduct Guidelines for this list Some guidelines which may help explain how the list should work: Language * The language on this mailing list is English. There may be other mailing lists that are language-specific, for example, debian-user-french or debian-user-catalan * It is common for users to be redirected here from other lists, for example, from debian-project. It is also common for people to be posting here when English is not their primary language. Please be considerate. Answering questions and contributing to discussions constructively == * This is a fairly busy mailing list but even so you may have to wait some time for an answer - please be patient. * Help and advice on this list is provided by volunteers in their own time. It is common for there to be different opinions or answers provided. * It is not necessary to answer every post on the mailing list. * Be constructive in your responses. It may be that somebody else answers a question before you - if so, you should not reply simply in order to get the last word in, only reply if you can add useful information. * Please try to stay on topic. Arguments for the sake of it are not welcome here. * Partisan political / religious / cultural arguments do not belong here either. Debian's community is world wide; do not assume others will agree with your views or need to read them on a Debian list. Editing and answering mailing list posts * It is helpful to write meaningful subject lines. If you change subject or emphasis in mid-thread, please change the subject line on your email accordingly so that this can be clearly seen. For example: New question [WAS Old topic] * It may also be useful for someone to post a summary email from time to time to explain long threads. * Before posting, it may be useful to check your post for spelling mistakes and scan it for redundancy, duplicate words and redundancy. * Clear replies and a short mailing list thread are much easier to read and follow than long threads. * If you are replying to a post, please reply in-line if possible and cut out extra text that is not relevant to your point. Private replies and responding to posts off-list * Please post answers back to the list so others can benefit: private conversations don't benefit people who may only be following along on the list or reading the archives later. * We're only human: you may want to respond to someone off-list to make a point (or to wish them Happy Birthday / comment that you haven't seen them for a long time). We're also a community and the people you find on the list may become familiar friends BUT * Posting outside the list can be unhelpful: bad behaviour outside the lists can't easily be dealt with and will be invisible. You may inadvertently leak personal information by posting a private reply back to the list. If you *do* want to post outside the list - make it clear that you have done so at the top of the message. If someone replies to you privately and you think that this should go back to the list - ask them to post it to the list - do not just do so on their behalf without checking. I can't see what I want here - help me! === * It is often useful to look through the archives to see whether the issue you wish to raise or a similar issue has been raised before by someone else. The top level link to the archives of this list is at https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/ organised by year, then month. * Although there are only 20 or 30 regular contributors, there may be a couple of thousand readers in the background. Nobody is a mind reader, nobody can sit beside you. Please help by providing useful details if asked, especially which version of Debian you are running. I'm not using Debian but ... * Strictly, discussions of other distributions are off-topic here. Please note: advice on Linux distributions other than Debian will be only our best guess - other distributions may do things very differently. Any advice given accordingly may be inaccurate but is given in good faith. FAQ topics == * There is an FAQ on the Debian wiki derived from some questions asked on this list at https://wiki.debian.org/FAQsFromDebianUser This is a public list, archived in many places
Re: Reply to list vs. group reply [was: Inlclusive terminology...]
Summary: exposing a troll On Sun, Feb 25, 2024 at 10:48:17AM +0100, to...@tuxteam.de wrote: > On Sun, Feb 25, 2024 at 10:35:33AM +0100, Geert Stappers wrote: > } troll tomas wrote: > } } I think I'm out of it. *Plonk* > [Adjusting the topic] > > > For keeping that promise would it be better to use "Reply-To-List". > > > > And in other cases is it also better to use "Reply-To-List". > > I know it is a hot topic here. Preferences vary by the sender, which > I can't perfectly know. > > My e-mail client honours "Mail-Followup-To", which is the sender's > way to state "hey, I'd prefer for you to send replies to...", > usually to the list address. There is no 'Mail-Followup-To" header in email sent by Zenaan Harkness. There is difference in To headers from troll tomas in reply to Zenaan messages. In https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2024/02/msg01022.html is the To this mailinglist. In https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2024/02/msg01027.html that is the email with "I think I'm out of it" is the To Zenaan and Cc to the mailinglist. I call the 'My e-mail client honours "Mail-Followup-To"' bullshit. Then the promise of "I'm out of it" was broken. Probably due my troll feeding. I should have ignored the passive agressive "To: Zenaan" > [...] > > > P.S. > > The better e-mail client has 3 reply buttons: > > - Reply > > - Reply-To-All > > - Reply-To-List > > Mine has those. https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2024/02/msg01029.html has documented that the troll did choose "Reply-To-All". > It *also* honours "Mail-Followup-To" (and could set it, if I cared > the other way around, but my MDA eliminates dupes anyway, so I'm happy > both ways). > > If you care, you might consider setting your "Mail-Followup-To" header? There is no technical problem, email headers and mail-user-agents wouldn't help to solve it. The challenge is to spend attention to what deserves attention. Troll email doesn't deserve attention. Time will tell if the signal noise ratio improves. > Cheers > -- > t Groeten Geert Stappers Also wrote - https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2024/02/msg01035.html (sad) - https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2024/02/msg00994.html (hope) -- Silence is hard to parse
Reply to list vs. group reply [was: Inlclusive terminology...]
On Sun, Feb 25, 2024 at 10:35:33AM +0100, Geert Stappers wrote: [Adjusting the topic] > For keeping that promise would it be better to use "Reply-To-List". > > And in other cases is it also better to use "Reply-To-List". I know it is a hot topic here. Preferences vary by the sender, which I can't perfectly know. My e-mail client honours "Mail-Followup-To", which is the sender's way to state "hey, I'd prefer for you to send replies to...", usually to the list address. [...] > P.S. > The better e-mail client has 3 reply buttons: > - Reply > - Reply-To-All > - Reply-To-List Mine has those. It *also* honours "Mail-Followup-To" (and could set it, if I cared the other way around, but my MDA eliminates dupes anyway, so I'm happy both ways). If you care, you might consider setting your "Mail-Followup-To" header? Cheers -- t signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: Can't list root directory
On 2024-02-01 02:37, Loren M. Lang wrote: On January 31, 2024 1:28:37 PM PST, hw wrote: On Wed, 2024-01-31 at 09:27 -0500, Gary Dale wrote: On 2024-01-30 15:54, hw wrote: On Mon, 2024-01-29 at 11:42 -0500, Gary Dale wrote: I'm running Debian/Trixie on an AMD64 workstation. I've lost the ability to see the root directory even when I am logged in as root (su -). This has been happening intermittently for several months. I initially thought it might be related to failing NVME drive that was part of a RAID1 array that is mounted as "/" but I replaced the device and the problem is still happening. [...] What happens when you put the device you replaced back? How could putting a known-failing device back in help? The problem existed before I replaced it and continues to exist after the replacement. It sounded like you were able to list the root directory (at least sometimes) before you did the replacement. Manually failing the device (perhaps after adding it back first) could make a difference. I've seen such indefinite hangs only when an NFS share has become unreachable after it had been mounted. You could use clonezilla to make a copy and then perhaps convert the file system to btrfs. Do you still have the problem when you remove one of the NVME storage things? Perhaps you have the equivivalent of a bad SATA cable or the mainboard doesn't like it when you access two of those at the same time, or something like that. Even simple network cables can behave very strangely, and NVME may be a bit more complicated than that. Running fsck on every boot to work around an issue like this is certainly a bad idea. Doesn't fsck report anything? If it really makes a difference in itself rather than creating some side effect that leads to the root directory being readable, it should report something. Perhaps you need to increase its verbosity. If there's no report then it would look like a side effect and raise the question what side effect it might be. Does fsck run before the RAID has been brought up or after? Is the RAID up when booting is completed? What does mdadm say about the device(s)? Can you still list the root directory when you manually fail either drive? What exactly are the circumstances under which you can and not list the root directory? You need to do some investigating and ask questions like those ... Also, instead of doing "ls -l /" which will stat() every child folder under root, try "/bin/ls -f /" and see if that is successful. That will only do a readdir() on root itself. Also, it might be interesting to get a log of "strace ls -l /" to confirm exactly where the hang happens. -Loren Thanks loren. /bin/ls -l works. The strace shows the hang is on /keybase. The strace did a really bad hang - ctrlC wouldn't kill it. I've set the fsck count to 1 again, so I can reboot and take a look at it.
Re: Can't list root directory
On 2024-01-31 12:02, Max Nikulin wrote: On 29/01/2024 23:42, Gary Dale wrote: "ls -l /" just hangs It may dereference symlinks, call stat, etc. to colorize output. May it happen that you have automount points or something related to network mounts? Does "echo /*" hangs? Even bash prompt may do some funny stuff. I would try it from "dash". Can you install strace? E.g. copy files while booted from a live media. Thanks everyone for the suggestions. I'll retune the array to not fsck every boot and see if the problem recurs so I can try your suggestions.
FAQ for Debian-user mailing list (modified 20240201)
Debian-user is a mailing list provided for support for Debian users, and to facilitate discussion on relevant topics. Codes of Conduct * The list is a Debian communication forum. As such, it is subject to both the Debian mailing list Code of Conduct and the main Debian Code of Conduct https://www.debian.org/MailingLists/#codeofconduct https://www.debian.org/code_of_conduct Guidelines for this list Some guidelines which may help explain how the list should work: Language * The language on this mailing list is English. There may be other mailing lists that are language-specific, for example, debian-user-french or debian-user-catalan * It is common for users to be redirected here from other lists, for example, from debian-project. It is also common for people to be posting here when English is not their primary language. Please be considerate. Answering questions and contributing to discussions constructively == * This is a fairly busy mailing list but even so you may have to wait some time for an answer - please be patient. * Help and advice on this list is provided by volunteers in their own time. It is common for there to be different opinions or answers provided. * It is not necessary to answer every post on the mailing list. * Be constructive in your responses. It may be that somebody else answers a question before you - if so, you should not reply simply in order to get the last word in, only reply if you can add useful information. * Please try to stay on topic. Arguments for the sake of it are not welcome here. * Partisan political / religious / cultural arguments do not belong here either. Debian's community is world wide; do not assume others will agree with your views or need to read them on a Debian list. Editing and answering mailing list posts * It is helpful to write meaningful subject lines. If you change subject or emphasis in mid-thread, please change the subject line on your email accordingly so that this can be clearly seen. For example: New question [WAS Old topic] * It may also be useful for someone to post a summary email from time to time to explain long threads. * Before posting, it may be useful to check your post for spelling mistakes and scan it for redundancy, duplicate words and redundancy. * Clear replies and a short mailing list thread are much easier to read and follow than long threads. * If you are replying to a post, please reply in-line if possible and cut out extra text that is not relevant to your point. Private replies and responding to posts off-list * Please post answers back to the list so others can benefit: private conversations don't benefit people who may only be following along on the list or reading the archives later. * We're only human: you may want to respond to someone off-list to make a point (or to wish them Happy Birthday / comment that you haven't seen them for a long time). We're also a community and the people you find on the list may become familiar friends BUT * Posting outside the list can be unhelpful: bad behaviour outside the lists can't easily be dealt with and will be invisible. You may inadvertently leak personal information by posting a private reply back to the list. If you *do* want to post outside the list - make it clear that you have done so at the top of the message. If someone replies to you privately and you think that this should go back to the list - ask them to post it to the list - do not just do so on their behalf without checking. I can't see what I want here - help me! === * It is often useful to look through the archives to see whether the issue you wish to raise or a similar issue has been raised before by someone else. The top level link to the archives of this list is at https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/ organised by year, then month. * Although there are only 20 or 30 regular contributors, there may be a couple of thousand readers in the background. Nobody is a mind reader, nobody can sit beside you. Please help by providing useful details if asked, especially which version of Debian you are running. I'm not using Debian but ... * Strictly, discussions of other distributions are off-topic here. Please note: advice on Linux distributions other than Debian will be only our best guess - other distributions may do things very differently. Any advice given accordingly may be inaccurate but is given in good faith. FAQ topics == * There is an FAQ on the Debian wiki derived from some questions asked on this list at https://wiki.debian.org/FAQsFromDebianUser This is a public list, archived in many places
Monthly FAQ for Debian-user mailing list (modified 20240201)
Debian-user is a mailing list provided for support for Debian users, and to facilitate discussion on relevant topics. Codes of Conduct * The list is a Debian communication forum. As such, it is subject to both the Debian mailing list Code of Conduct and the main Debian Code of Conduct https://www.debian.org/MailingLists/#codeofconduct https://www.debian.org/code_of_conduct Guidelines for this list Some guidelines which may help explain how the list should work: Language * The language on this mailing list is English. There may be other mailing lists that are language-specific, for example, debian-user-french or debian-user-catalan * It is common for users to be redirected here from other lists, for example, from debian-project. It is also common for people to be posting here when English is not their primary language. Please be considerate. Answering questions and contributing to discussions constructively == * This is a fairly busy mailing list but even so you may have to wait some time for an answer - please be patient. * Help and advice on this list is provided by volunteers in their own time. It is common for there to be different opinions or answers provided. * It is not necessary to answer every post on the mailing list. * Be constructive in your responses. It may be that somebody else answers a question before you - if so, you should not reply simply in order to get the last word in, only reply if you can add useful information. * Please try to stay on topic. Arguments for the sake of it are not welcome here. * Partisan political / religious / cultural arguments do not belong here either. Debian's community is world wide; do not assume others will agree with your views or need to read them on a Debian list. Editing and answering mailing list posts * It is helpful to write meaningful subject lines. If you change subject or emphasis in mid-thread, please change the subject line on your email accordingly so that this can be clearly seen. For example: New question [WAS Old topic] * It may also be useful to for someone to post a summary email from time to time to explain long threads. * Before posting, it may be useful to check your post for spelling mistakes and scan it for redundancy, duplicate words and redundancy. * Clear replies and a short mailing list thread are much easier to read and follow than long threads. * If you are replying to a post, please reply in-line if possible and cut out extra text that is not relevant to your point. Private replies and responding to posts off-list * Please post answers back to the list so others can benefit: private conversations don't benefit people who may only be following along on the list or reading the archives later. * We're only human: you may want to respond to someone off-list to make a point (or to wish them Happy Birthday / comment that you haven't seen them for a long time). We're also a community BUT * Posting outside the list can be unhelpful: bad behaviour outside the lists can't easily be dealt with and will be invisible. You may inadvertently leak personal information by posting a private reply back to the list. If you *do* want to post outside the list - make it clear that you have done so at the top of the message. If someone replies to you privately and you think that this should go back to the list - ask them to post it to the list - do not just do so on their behalf without checking. I can't see what I want here - help me! === * It is often useful to look through the archives to see whether the issue you wish to raise or a similar issue has been raised before by someone else. The top level link to the archives of this list is at https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/ organised by year, then month. * Although there are only 20 or 30 regular contributors, there may be a couple of thousand readers in the background. Nobody is a mind reader, nobody can sit beside you. Please help by providing useful details if asked, especially which version of Debian you are running. I'm not using Debian but ... * Strictly, discussions of other distributions are off-topic here. Please note: advice on Linux distributions other than Debian will be only our best guess - other distributions may do things very differently. Any advice given accordingly may be inaccurate but is given in good faith. FAQ topics == * There is an FAQ on the Debian wiki derived from some questions asked on this list at https://wiki.debian.org/FAQsFromDebianUser This is a public list, archived in many places == * One question
Re: Can't list root directory
On January 31, 2024 1:28:37 PM PST, hw wrote: >On Wed, 2024-01-31 at 09:27 -0500, Gary Dale wrote: >> On 2024-01-30 15:54, hw wrote: >> > On Mon, 2024-01-29 at 11:42 -0500, Gary Dale wrote: >> > > I'm running Debian/Trixie on an AMD64 workstation. I've lost the ability >> > > to see the root directory even when I am logged in as root (su -). >> > > >> > > This has been happening intermittently for several months. I initially >> > > thought it might be related to failing NVME drive that was part of a >> > > RAID1 array that is mounted as "/" but I replaced the device and the >> > > problem is still happening. >> > > [...] >> > What happens when you put the device you replaced back? >> > >> How could putting a known-failing device back in help? The problem >> existed before I replaced it and continues to exist after the replacement. > >It sounded like you were able to list the root directory (at least >sometimes) before you did the replacement. Manually failing the >device (perhaps after adding it back first) could make a difference. > >I've seen such indefinite hangs only when an NFS share has become >unreachable after it had been mounted. You could use clonezilla to >make a copy and then perhaps convert the file system to btrfs. > >Do you still have the problem when you remove one of the NVME storage >things? Perhaps you have the equivivalent of a bad SATA cable or the >mainboard doesn't like it when you access two of those at the same >time, or something like that. Even simple network cables can behave >very strangely, and NVME may be a bit more complicated than that. > >Running fsck on every boot to work around an issue like this is >certainly a bad idea. Doesn't fsck report anything? If it really >makes a difference in itself rather than creating some side effect >that leads to the root directory being readable, it should report >something. Perhaps you need to increase its verbosity. > >If there's no report then it would look like a side effect and raise >the question what side effect it might be. Does fsck run before the >RAID has been brought up or after? Is the RAID up when booting is >completed? What does mdadm say about the device(s)? Can you still >list the root directory when you manually fail either drive? What >exactly are the circumstances under which you can and not list the >root directory? > >You need to do some investigating and ask questions like those ... > Also, instead of doing "ls -l /" which will stat() every child folder under root, try "/bin/ls -f /" and see if that is successful. That will only do a readdir() on root itself. Also, it might be interesting to get a log of "strace ls -l /" to confirm exactly where the hang happens. -Loren -- Sent from my Nexus 4 with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.
Re: Can't list root directory
On Wed, 2024-01-31 at 09:27 -0500, Gary Dale wrote: > On 2024-01-30 15:54, hw wrote: > > On Mon, 2024-01-29 at 11:42 -0500, Gary Dale wrote: > > > I'm running Debian/Trixie on an AMD64 workstation. I've lost the ability > > > to see the root directory even when I am logged in as root (su -). > > > > > > This has been happening intermittently for several months. I initially > > > thought it might be related to failing NVME drive that was part of a > > > RAID1 array that is mounted as "/" but I replaced the device and the > > > problem is still happening. > > > [...] > > What happens when you put the device you replaced back? > > > How could putting a known-failing device back in help? The problem > existed before I replaced it and continues to exist after the replacement. It sounded like you were able to list the root directory (at least sometimes) before you did the replacement. Manually failing the device (perhaps after adding it back first) could make a difference. I've seen such indefinite hangs only when an NFS share has become unreachable after it had been mounted. You could use clonezilla to make a copy and then perhaps convert the file system to btrfs. Do you still have the problem when you remove one of the NVME storage things? Perhaps you have the equivivalent of a bad SATA cable or the mainboard doesn't like it when you access two of those at the same time, or something like that. Even simple network cables can behave very strangely, and NVME may be a bit more complicated than that. Running fsck on every boot to work around an issue like this is certainly a bad idea. Doesn't fsck report anything? If it really makes a difference in itself rather than creating some side effect that leads to the root directory being readable, it should report something. Perhaps you need to increase its verbosity. If there's no report then it would look like a side effect and raise the question what side effect it might be. Does fsck run before the RAID has been brought up or after? Is the RAID up when booting is completed? What does mdadm say about the device(s)? Can you still list the root directory when you manually fail either drive? What exactly are the circumstances under which you can and not list the root directory? You need to do some investigating and ask questions like those ...
Re: Can't list root directory
On 29/01/2024 23:42, Gary Dale wrote: "ls -l /" just hangs It may dereference symlinks, call stat, etc. to colorize output. May it happen that you have automount points or something related to network mounts? Does "echo /*" hangs? Even bash prompt may do some funny stuff. I would try it from "dash". Can you install strace? E.g. copy files while booted from a live media.
Re: Can't list root directory
On 2024-01-29 at 11:42, Gary Dale wrote: > I'm running Debian/Trixie on an AMD64 workstation. I've lost the > ability to see the root directory even when I am logged in as root > (su -). > > This has been happening intermittently for several months. I > initially thought it might be related to failing NVME drive that was > part of a RAID1 array that is mounted as "/" but I replaced the > device and the problem is still happening. > > I had been able to fix it by booting to SystemRescue and running an > fsck on the device but it didn't work this time. The device checks > out OK (even when using fsck -/dev/mdx -f) but I still can't list the > root. "ls -l /" just hangs, as do any attempts to see the root > directory in a graphical file manager. In dolphin this means there is > nothing in the folders - and since that is the default starting point > I have to manually enter a folder name (e.g. /home/me) in the > location bar to be able to see anything - but even then the folders > panel remains empty. > > Even running commands like df -h hang because they can't access the > root folder. However the system is otherwise running normally. I'm not sure it'll help lead to anything, but out of curiosity and/or as a possible diagnostic: when the problem is manifesting, what happens if you run 'stat /'? Does it report data (similar to what you'd get from 'stat' on another directory), or does it hang, or give errors, or...? My thought is that this will give information about the filesystem object that is the root directory, without trying to also access information about the *contents* of that directory. If the one succeeds where the other fails, that might help narrow down where the actual issue is. -- The Wanderer The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man. -- George Bernard Shaw signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: Can't list root directory
On 2024-01-29 12:55, Hans wrote: Hi Gary, before loosing any data, I suggest, to boot from a liuvefile linux. Please use a modern livefile like Knoppix or Kali-Linux. If it is not a BIOS problem, you should see the device again and are able to mount it. If /root is on a seperated partition, you can do some filesystem checks, like e2fsck or else. Ans: Most important, with a livefile system you can mount an external harddrive and backup all files. Thus , even when the /dev/nvme*** is died or partly broken, you can maybe restore /root on another partition. Second: Please check ACL, although I do not believe the reason for these, it is worth to look at this. Maybe you or someone else has chenged it accidently. Third idea: Is the harddrive full? In the past I has the problem, not to be able to do anything. The reason: My harddrive was completely full (some temporary file was the reason). Deleting this big file was the trick. Just some ideas, maybe it could help. Good luck! Best Hans There is no problem seeing the root folder when I boot from a live distro. fsck never finds any significant issue. An ACL issue would be permanent. This comes and goes. I actually doubled the size of the root device when I put in the new NVME drive. When I set up the RAID array, I'd bought a 500G second drive to mirror the 256G original drive. When I replaced the 256G drive, I was able to expand the array to 500G (less a small amount for the EFI partition). The partition has lots of free space. As I said, running an fsck seems to fix the issue temporarily. I now run an fsck on every boot.
Re: Can't list root directory
On 2024-01-29 11:42, Gary Dale wrote: I'm running Debian/Trixie on an AMD64 workstation. I've lost the ability to see the root directory even when I am logged in as root (su -). This has been happening intermittently for several months. I initially thought it might be related to failing NVME drive that was part of a RAID1 array that is mounted as "/" but I replaced the device and the problem is still happening. I had been able to fix it by booting to SystemRescue and running an fsck on the device but it didn't work this time. The device checks out OK (even when using fsck -/dev/mdx -f) but I still can't list the root. "ls -l /" just hangs, as do any attempts to see the root directory in a graphical file manager. In dolphin this means there is nothing in the folders - and since that is the default starting point I have to manually enter a folder name (e.g. /home/me) in the location bar to be able to see anything - but even then the folders panel remains empty. Even running commands like df -h hang because they can't access the root folder. However the system is otherwise running normally. Strangely, in the past simply booting to a rescue shell then exiting would also work. I'd usually try to do an fsck on the raid device but that would always fail because it was mounted. The only thing I noticed that was unusual was I rebooted after installing the latest Trixie updates this morning. That took about 10 minutes to shut down - 6 of which were spent waiting for a drkonqi process to finish. There was also a systemd message really late in the shutdown about /dev/md0 but that's not the root device. I'm used to Linux taking its time to shutdown lately so I don't think this was related. The systemd shutdown just seems to be easily delayed. Any ideas on how I can restore my ability to see the root directory? OK, got it working again. I used tune2fs to do an fsck on every boot. This being an NVME device, it's barely noticeable.
Re: Can't list root directory
On 2024-01-30 15:54, hw wrote: On Mon, 2024-01-29 at 11:42 -0500, Gary Dale wrote: I'm running Debian/Trixie on an AMD64 workstation. I've lost the ability to see the root directory even when I am logged in as root (su -). This has been happening intermittently for several months. I initially thought it might be related to failing NVME drive that was part of a RAID1 array that is mounted as "/" but I replaced the device and the problem is still happening. [...] What happens when you put the device you replaced back? How could putting a known-failing device back in help? The problem existed before I replaced it and continues to exist after the replacement.
Re: Can't list root directory
On Mon, 2024-01-29 at 11:42 -0500, Gary Dale wrote: > I'm running Debian/Trixie on an AMD64 workstation. I've lost the ability > to see the root directory even when I am logged in as root (su -). > > This has been happening intermittently for several months. I initially > thought it might be related to failing NVME drive that was part of a > RAID1 array that is mounted as "/" but I replaced the device and the > problem is still happening. > [...] What happens when you put the device you replaced back?
Re: Can't list root directory
Hi Gary, before loosing any data, I suggest, to boot from a liuvefile linux. Please use a modern livefile like Knoppix or Kali-Linux. If it is not a BIOS problem, you should see the device again and are able to mount it. If /root is on a seperated partition, you can do some filesystem checks, like e2fsck or else. Ans: Most important, with a livefile system you can mount an external harddrive and backup all files. Thus , even when the /dev/nvme*** is died or partly broken, you can maybe restore /root on another partition. Second: Please check ACL, although I do not believe the reason for these, it is worth to look at this. Maybe you or someone else has chenged it accidently. Third idea: Is the harddrive full? In the past I has the problem, not to be able to do anything. The reason: My harddrive was completely full (some temporary file was the reason). Deleting this big file was the trick. Just some ideas, maybe it could help. Good luck! Best Hans
Re: Can't list root directory
On Mon, Jan 29, 2024 at 11:42:14AM -0500, Gary Dale wrote: > I'm running Debian/Trixie on an AMD64 workstation. I've lost the ability to > see the root directory even when I am logged in as root (su -). > > This has been happening intermittently for several months. I initially > thought it might be related to failing NVME drive that was part of a RAID1 > array that is mounted as "/" but I replaced the device and the problem is > still happening. [...] Anything mounted below / whose block device is taking its time? Maybe a network device? What does mount say? Cheers -- t signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Can't list root directory
I'm running Debian/Trixie on an AMD64 workstation. I've lost the ability to see the root directory even when I am logged in as root (su -). This has been happening intermittently for several months. I initially thought it might be related to failing NVME drive that was part of a RAID1 array that is mounted as "/" but I replaced the device and the problem is still happening. I had been able to fix it by booting to SystemRescue and running an fsck on the device but it didn't work this time. The device checks out OK (even when using fsck -/dev/mdx -f) but I still can't list the root. "ls -l /" just hangs, as do any attempts to see the root directory in a graphical file manager. In dolphin this means there is nothing in the folders - and since that is the default starting point I have to manually enter a folder name (e.g. /home/me) in the location bar to be able to see anything - but even then the folders panel remains empty. Even running commands like df -h hang because they can't access the root folder. However the system is otherwise running normally. Strangely, in the past simply booting to a rescue shell then exiting would also work. I'd usually try to do an fsck on the raid device but that would always fail because it was mounted. The only thing I noticed that was unusual was I rebooted after installing the latest Trixie updates this morning. That took about 10 minutes to shut down - 6 of which were spent waiting for a drkonqi process to finish. There was also a systemd message really late in the shutdown about /dev/md0 but that's not the root device. I'm used to Linux taking its time to shutdown lately so I don't think this was related. The systemd shutdown just seems to be easily delayed. Any ideas on how I can restore my ability to see the root directory?
Re: rfkill list wlan, Hard blocked: yes
On Sun 21 Jan 2024 at 21:57:20 (+0100), Geert Stappers wrote: > On Sun, Jan 21, 2024 at 12:59:01PM -0600, David Wright wrote: > > On Sun 21 Jan 2024 at 18:58:43 (+0100), Geert Stappers wrote: > > > On Sun, Jan 21, 2024 at 10:44:04AM -0600, David Wright wrote: > > > > On Sun 21 Jan 2024 at 17:33:57 (+0100), Geert Stappers wrote: > > > > ( https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2024/01/msg01038.html ) > > > > > [7.854942] iwlwifi :02:00.0: reporting RF_KILL (radio > > > > > disabled) > > > > > [7.860452] iwlwifi :02:00.0: RF_KILL bit toggled to disable > > > > > radio. > > > > > [8.356275] iwlwifi :02:00.0 wlp2s0: renamed from wlan0 > > > > > > > > Run rfkill and, if it's blocked, unblock it. > > > > > > Installed package `rfkill` (it wasn't installed before) > > > and tried it. > > > > > > It does report "hard blocked", but rfkill can't change it. > > > > > > I always tried a "function key" on the keyboard of the laptop, > > > also without the desired effect. > > > > Has that worked in the past … on previous Debians … on > > the originally installed OS? > > I think it has. Years ago. You might need to firm up that answer. I now see thinkpad added to your Subject line, and also occurring in the logs. A naive search for such a device turns up: https://www.amazon.com/Centrino-Wireless-N-112BNHMW-300Mbps-Wireless/dp/B009WJ44CA which warns "About this item // Note: this wireless card could not work on IBM/Lenovo/Thinkpad and HP version laptop". Several reviews expressed disappointment with the product. Cheers, David.
Re: rfkill list wlan, Hard blocked: yes
On Sun 21 Jan 2024 at 21:57:20 (+0100), Geert Stappers wrote: > On Sun, Jan 21, 2024 at 12:59:01PM -0600, David Wright wrote: > > On Sun 21 Jan 2024 at 18:58:43 (+0100), Geert Stappers wrote: > > > On Sun, Jan 21, 2024 at 10:44:04AM -0600, David Wright wrote: > > > > On Sun 21 Jan 2024 at 17:33:57 (+0100), Geert Stappers wrote: > > > > ( https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2024/01/msg01038.html ) > > > > > [7.854942] iwlwifi :02:00.0: reporting RF_KILL (radio > > > > > disabled) > > > > > [7.860452] iwlwifi :02:00.0: RF_KILL bit toggled to disable > > > > > radio. > > > > > [8.356275] iwlwifi :02:00.0 wlp2s0: renamed from wlan0 > > > > > > > > Run rfkill and, if it's blocked, unblock it. > > > > > > Installed package `rfkill` (it wasn't installed before) > > > and tried it. > > > > > > It does report "hard blocked", but rfkill can't change it. > > > > > > I always tried a "function key" on the keyboard of the laptop, > > > also without the desired effect. > > > > Has that worked in the past … on previous Debians … on > > the originally installed OS? > > I think it has. Years ago. > > In recent years only the ethernet interface has been used. Just checking, as some laptops are supplied without a wifi option. You could try checking the BIOS—my Lenovo has an ?InsydeH2O BIOS with a section: WirelessEnabled Bluetooth Enabled Power Beep Disabled Intel Virtual TechnologyDisabled BIOS Back Flash Disabled HotKey Mode Enabled → Disabled Always On USB Disabled AOAC Configuration Enabled Deep S3 FunctionDisabled You could install the regulatory database if it's not there (wireless-regdb). However, I think normal behaviour is to allow wifi to run at the lowest legal power when the regulatory domain is not known. After that, I'm getting out of my depth: > [8.002917] thinkpad_acpi: rfkill switch tpacpi_bluetooth_sw: radio is > blocked > [8.019804] thinkpad_acpi: rfkill switch tpacpi_wwan_sw: radio is blocked > [8.685725] iwlwifi :02:00.0: can't disable ASPM; OS doesn't have ASPM > control Possibilities here are suggested by: https://www.reddit.com/r/debian/comments/8c6ytj/active_state_power_management_aspm/ https://www.reddit.com/r/debian/comments/y4ahsh/solution_cant_disable_aspm_os_doesnt_have_aspm/ and: https://www.kernel.org/doc/html/v5.19/admin-guide/kernel-parameters.html which warns: pcie_aspm= [PCIE] Forcibly enable or disable PCIe Active State Power Management. off Disable ASPM. force Enable ASPM even on devices that claim not to support it. WARNING: Forcing ASPM on may cause system lockups. Cheers, David.
Re: rfkill list wlan, Hard blocked: yes
On Sun, Jan 21, 2024 at 12:59:01PM -0600, David Wright wrote: > On Sun 21 Jan 2024 at 18:58:43 (+0100), Geert Stappers wrote: > > On Sun, Jan 21, 2024 at 10:44:04AM -0600, David Wright wrote: > > > On Sun 21 Jan 2024 at 17:33:57 (+0100), Geert Stappers wrote: > > > ( https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2024/01/msg01038.html ) > > > > [7.854942] iwlwifi :02:00.0: reporting RF_KILL (radio disabled) > > > > [7.860452] iwlwifi :02:00.0: RF_KILL bit toggled to disable > > > > radio. > > > > [8.356275] iwlwifi :02:00.0 wlp2s0: renamed from wlan0 > > > > > > Run rfkill and, if it's blocked, unblock it. > > > > Installed package `rfkill` (it wasn't installed before) > > and tried it. > > > > It does report "hard blocked", but rfkill can't change it. > > > > I always tried a "function key" on the keyboard of the laptop, > > also without the desired effect. > > Has that worked in the past … on previous Debians … on > the originally installed OS? I think it has. Years ago. In recent years only the ethernet interface has been used. > Do you see any reaction in the logs (daemon.log and syslog) > when you press that function key? Does xev show a XF86WLAN > keysym occurring (or anything)? The laptop doesn't run X any more. Tried `xev` anyway: | # xev | xev: unable to open display '' | # With `dmesg -w` was neither the function key press seen. > Presumably as there's a function key, there's no button > on the laptop, as commonly found on ones old enough. Indeed, no dedicated "airplane switch" present. Tried with parameter for the rfkill kernel module. Either I did that wrong or it had not the desired effect. Further suggestions appriciated. What follows is the parameter attempt. root@nero:~# modinfo -p rfkill master_switch_mode:SW_RFKILL_ALL ON should: 0=do nothing (only unlock); 1=restore; 2=unblock all (uint) default_state:Default initial state for all radio types, 0 = radio off (uint) root@nero:~# echo 'rfkill master_switch_mode=2' > /etc/modules-load.d/rfkil_unblock.conf root@nero:~# update-initramfs -u update-initramfs: Generating /boot/initrd.img-5.10.0-27-amd64 root@nero:~# dmesg | grep -e rfkill -e iwlwifi [8.002917] thinkpad_acpi: rfkill switch tpacpi_bluetooth_sw: radio is blocked [8.019804] thinkpad_acpi: rfkill switch tpacpi_wwan_sw: radio is blocked [8.685725] iwlwifi :02:00.0: can't disable ASPM; OS doesn't have ASPM control [8.768395] iwlwifi :02:00.0: firmware: direct-loading firmware iwlwifi-1000-5.ucode [8.768624] iwlwifi :02:00.0: loaded firmware version 39.31.5.1 build 35138 1000-5.ucode op_mode iwldvm [8.768677] iwlwifi :02:00.0: firmware: failed to load iwl-debug-yoyo.bin (-2) [9.074938] iwlwifi :02:00.0: CONFIG_IWLWIFI_DEBUG disabled [9.074943] iwlwifi :02:00.0: CONFIG_IWLWIFI_DEBUGFS disabled [9.074946] iwlwifi :02:00.0: CONFIG_IWLWIFI_DEVICE_TRACING disabled [9.074950] iwlwifi :02:00.0: Detected Intel(R) Centrino(R) Wireless-N 1000 BGN, REV=0x6C [9.088734] iwlwifi :02:00.0: reporting RF_KILL (radio disabled) [9.088763] iwlwifi :02:00.0: RF_KILL bit toggled to disable radio. [9.194253] iwlwifi :02:00.0 wlp2s0: renamed from wlan0 root@nero:~# reboot Connection to nero closed by remote host. Connection to nero closed. stappers@paddy:~ $ bong E: Missing hostname I: This programm reduces output of I: Like is a hostname as parameter required stappers@paddy:~ $ bong nero 21:24:18 just_started 0:00:00 PING nero.gpm.stappers.nl (172.24.0.54) 56(84) bytes of data. 21:24:19 still_up 0:00:01 21:26:09 up_again 0:01:50 stappers@paddy:~ $ ssh nero Linux nero 5.10.0-27-amd64 #1 SMP Debian 5.10.205-2 (2023-12-31) x86_64 The programs included with the Debian GNU/Linux system are free software; the exact distribution terms for each program are described in the individual files in /usr/share/doc/*/copyright. Debian GNU/Linux comes with ABSOLUTELY NO WARRANTY, to the extent permitted by applicable law. Last login: Sun Jan 21 20:25:08 2024 from 172.24.0.36 stappers@nero:~$ sudo su - root@nero:~# dmesg | grep -e rfkill -e iwlwifi [7.952756] thinkpad_acpi: rfkill switch tpacpi_bluetooth_sw: radio is blocked [7.976749] thinkpad_acpi: rfkill switch tpacpi_wwan_sw: radio is blocked [8.397512] iwlwifi :02:00.0: can't disable ASPM; OS doesn't have ASPM control [8.405654] iwlwifi :02:00.0: firmware: direct-loading firmware iwlwifi-1000-5.ucode [8.405864] iwlwifi :02:00.0: loaded firmware version 39.31.5.1 build 35138 1000-5.ucode op_mode iwldvm [8.405909] iwlwifi :02:00.0: firmware: failed to load iwl-debug-yoyo.bin (-2) [8.658837] iwlwifi :02:00.0: CONFIG_IWLWIFI_DEBUG disabled [8.658843] iwlwifi :02:00.0: CONFIG_IWLWIFI_DEBUGFS disabled [8.658846] iwlwifi :02:00.0: CONFIG_IWLWIFI_DEVICE_TRACING disabled [8.658850] iwlwifi :02:00.0: Detected Intel(R) Centrino(R)
Re: rfkill list wlan, Hard blocked: yes
On Sun 21 Jan 2024 at 18:58:43 (+0100), Geert Stappers wrote: > On Sun, Jan 21, 2024 at 10:44:04AM -0600, David Wright wrote: > > On Sun 21 Jan 2024 at 17:33:57 (+0100), Geert Stappers wrote: > > ( https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2024/01/msg01038.html ) > > > [7.854942] iwlwifi :02:00.0: reporting RF_KILL (radio disabled) > > > [7.860452] iwlwifi :02:00.0: RF_KILL bit toggled to disable radio. > > > [8.356275] iwlwifi :02:00.0 wlp2s0: renamed from wlan0 > > > > Run rfkill and, if it's blocked, unblock it. > > Installed package `rfkill` (it wasn't installed before) > and tried it. > > It does report "hard blocked", but rfkill can't change it. > > I always tried a "function key" on the keyboard of the laptop, > also without the desired effect. Has that worked in the past … on previous Debians … on the originally installed OS? Do you see any reaction in the logs (daemon.log and syslog) when you press that function key? Does xev show a XF86WLAN keysym occurring (or anything)? Presumably as there's a function key, there's no button on the laptop, as commonly found on ones old enough. Cheers, David.
Re: rfkill list wlan, Hard blocked: yes
Am 21.01.2024 um 18:58:43 Uhr schrieb Geert Stappers: > It does report "hard blocked", but rfkill can't change it. Look for a hardware switch or a keystroke (mostly combined with FN) to enable it.
rfkill list wlan, Hard blocked: yes
In-Reply-To: Subject: Re: ip link versus nmcli device, WIFI firmware related On Sun, Jan 21, 2024 at 10:44:04AM -0600, David Wright wrote: > On Sun 21 Jan 2024 at 17:33:57 (+0100), Geert Stappers wrote: > ( https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2024/01/msg01038.html ) > > [7.854942] iwlwifi :02:00.0: reporting RF_KILL (radio disabled) > > [7.860452] iwlwifi :02:00.0: RF_KILL bit toggled to disable radio. > > [8.356275] iwlwifi :02:00.0 wlp2s0: renamed from wlan0 > > Run rfkill and, if it's blocked, unblock it. Installed package `rfkill` (it wasn't installed before) and tried it. It does report "hard blocked", but rfkill can't change it. root@nero:~# rfkill ID TYPE DEVICE SOFTHARD 0 bluetooth tpacpi_bluetooth_sw blocked blocked 1 wwan tpacpi_wwan_sw unblocked blocked 2 wlan phy0unblocked blocked root@nero:~# nmcli radio WIFI-HW WIFI WWAN-HW WWAN enabled disabled enabled disabled root@nero:~# rfkill list wlan 2: phy0: Wireless LAN Soft blocked: no Hard blocked: yes root@nero:~# rfkill unblock wlan root@nero:~# rfkill list wlan 2: phy0: Wireless LAN Soft blocked: no Hard blocked: yes root@nero:~# rfkill unblock all root@nero:~# rfkill list wlan 2: phy0: Wireless LAN Soft blocked: no Hard blocked: yes root@nero:~# nmcli radio WIFI-HW WIFI WWAN-HW WWAN enabled disabled enabled disabled root@nero:~# I always tried a "function key" on the keyboard of the laptop, also without the desired effect. So now in doubt how to proceed. > Cheers, > David. Groeten Geert Stappers -- Silence is hard to parse
Monthly FAQ for Debian-user mailing list (modified 20240102)
Debian-user is a mailing list provided for support for Debian users, and to facilitate discussion on relevant topics. A Debian resource - Codes of Conduct * The list is a Debian communication forum hosted on Debian resources. As such, it is subject to both the Debian mailing list Code of Conduct and the main Debian Code of Conduct. https://www.debian.org/MailingLists/#codeofconduct https://www.debian.org/code_of_conduct Guidelines for this list Some guidelines which may help explain how the list should work: Language * The language on this mailing list is English. There may be other mailing lists that are language-specific, for example, debian-user-french or debian-user-catalan. * It is common for users to be redirected here from other lists, for example, from debian-project. It is also common for people to be posting here when English is not their primary language. Please be considerate. Answering questions and contributing to discussions constructively == * This is a fairly busy mailing list but even so you may have to wait some time for an answer - please be patient. * Help and advice on this list is provided by volunteers in their own time. It is common for there to be different opinions or answers provided. * It is not necessary to answer every post on the mailing list. * Be constructive in your responses. It may be that somebody else answers a question before you - if so, you should not reply simply in order to get the last word in, only reply if you can add useful information. * Please try to stay on topic. Arguments for the sake of it are not welcome here. * Partisan political / religious / cultural arguments do not belong here either. Debian's community is world wide; do not assume others will agree with your views or need to read them on a Debian list. Editing and answering mailing list posts * It is helpful to write meaningful subject lines. If you change subject or emphasis in mid-thread, please change the subject line on your email accordingly so that this can be clearly seen. For example: New question [WAS Old topic] * It may also be useful for someone to post a summary email from time to time to explain long threads. * Before posting, it may be useful to check your post for spelling mistakes and to scan it for redundancy, duplicate words and redundancy. * Clear replies and a short mailing list thread are much easier to read and follow than long threads. * If you are replying to a post, please reply in-line if possible and cut extra text that is not relevant to your point, showing that you have done. so. Private replies and responding to posts off-list * Please post answers back to the list so others can benefit: private conversations don't benefit people who may only be following along on the list or reading the archives later. * We're only human: you may want to respond to someone off-list to make a point (or to wish them Happy Birthday / comment that you haven't seen them for a long time). We're also a community and the people you find on the list become familiar friends BUT * Posting outside the list can be unhelpful: bad behaviour outside the lists can't easily be dealt with and will be invisible. You may inadvertently leak personal information by posting a private reply back to the list. If you do want to post outside the list for any reason - please make it clear that you have done so at the top of the message. If someone replies to you privately and you think that this should go back to the list - ask them to post it back to the list and do not just post it on their behalf without checking with them. I can't see what I want here - help me! === * It is often useful to look through the archives to see whether the issue you wish to raise or a similar issue has been raised before by someone else. The top level link to the archives of this list is at https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/ organised by year, then month. * Although there are only twenty or thirty regular contributors, there may be a couple of thousand readers following the list in the background. Nobody is a mind reader, nobody can sit beside you and see what you see. Please help the rest of us by providing useful details if asked, especially which version of Debian you are running. Problem solving === * If you hit problems with Debian, please don't blindly follow advice that you find on the Internet. Please DO stop, note what you think you've done and, if possible, take a note of the cirucmstances and commands you have run that have got you to this point. If you have been researching solutions, it may be useful
On threads and changing Subject [was: Monthly FAQ for Debian-user mailing list (modified 20240101)]
On Tue, Jan 02, 2024 at 03:26:03AM +, Andy Smith wrote: > Hello, > > On Mon, Jan 01, 2024 at 07:32:18PM -0700, Charles Curley wrote: > > If one changes subject, would it not be better to simply start a new > > thread? With most mail readers threading using the In-Reply-To header, > > the new subject would get buried in the old thread. > > Personally I prefer that. I appreciate being able to break out > sub-threads that seem interesting, instead of having that decision > made for me. I'd tend to leave the (real, In-Reply-To:, References:) thread intact as long as there's still a relation and to actively break the thread when the relation was lost. But of course, change the Subject: appropriately. Here I try an example :) > But in any case, ~30% of the posters of this list (the largest > single constituency) use gmail which I recently learned will break > such emails out to appear to be in a different "conversation" > anyway. Why cater to gmail users and Google's interests? That's on their plate to complain to Google if their mail reader is garbage (I try to be friendly to them by putting a [was: ...] in the Subject: relating to the old one. Either they sort it out manually or they let their fancy AIs do it for them -- and sneak in some targeted advertising if their overlords feel like it). The other 70% are more important to me anyway. Cheers -- t signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: Monthly FAQ for Debian-user mailing list (modified 20240101)
Hello, On Mon, Jan 01, 2024 at 07:32:18PM -0700, Charles Curley wrote: > If one changes subject, would it not be better to simply start a new > thread? With most mail readers threading using the In-Reply-To header, > the new subject would get buried in the old thread. Personally I prefer that. I appreciate being able to break out sub-threads that seem interesting, instead of having that decision made for me. But in any case, ~30% of the posters of this list (the largest single constituency) use gmail which I recently learned will break such emails out to appear to be in a different "conversation" anyway. Thanks, Andy -- https://bitfolk.com/ -- No-nonsense VPS hosting
Re: Monthly FAQ for Debian-user mailing list (modified 20240101)
On Mon, Jan 01, 2024 at 07:32:18PM -0700, Charles Curley wrote: > If one changes subject, would it not be better to simply start a new > thread? With most mail readers threading using the In-Reply-To header, > the new subject would get buried in the old thread. There's a difference between natural subject drift, or someone hijacking a thread to ask their own question. A judgment call may be needed in some cases where it might be unclear, but most of the time it should be obvious which one's happening.
Re: Monthly FAQ for Debian-user mailing list (modified 20240101)
The refactoring and headers are an improvement, thank you. On Mon, 1 Jan 2024 22:56:03 + "Andrew M.A. Cater" wrote: > If you change subject or emphasis in mid-thread, please change the > subject line on your email accordingly so that this can be clearly > seen. > > For example: New question [WAS Old topic] If one changes subject, would it not be better to simply start a new thread? With most mail readers threading using the In-Reply-To header, the new subject would get buried in the old thread. -- Does anybody read signatures any more? https://charlescurley.com https://charlescurley.com/blog/
Re: Monthly FAQ for Debian-user mailing list (modified 20240101)
Debian-user is a mailing list provided for support for Debian users, and to facilitate discussion on relevant topics. Codes of Conduct * The list is a Debian communication forum. As such, it is subject to both the Debian mailing list Code of Conduct and the main Debian Code of Conduct https://www.debian.org/MailingLists/#codeofconduct https://www.debian.org/code_of_conduct Guidelines for this list Some guidelines which may help explain how the list should work: Language * The language on this mailing list is English. There may be other mailing lists that are language-specific, for example, debian-user-french or debian-user-cat * It is common for users to be redirected here from other lists, for example, from debian-project. It is also common for people to be posting here when English is not their primary language. Please be considerate. Answering questions and contributing to discussions constructively == * This is a fairly busy mailing list but even so you may have to wait some time for an answer - please be patient. * Help and advice on this list is provided by volunteers in their own time. It is common for there to be different opinions or answers provided. * It is not necessary to answer every post on the mailing list. * Be constructive in your responses. It may be that somebody else answers a question before you - if so, you should not reply simply in order to get the last word in, only reply if you can add useful information. * Please try to stay on topic. Arguments for the sake of it are not welcome here. * Partisan political / religious / cultural arguments do not belong here either. Debian's community is world wide; do not assume others will agree with your views or need to read them on a Debian list. Editing and answering mailing list posts * It is helpful to write meaningful subject lines. If you change subject or emphasis in mid-thread, please change the subject line on your email accordingly so that this can be clearly seen. For example: New question [WAS Old topic] * It may also be useful to for someone to post a summary email from time to time to explain long threads. * Before posting, it may be useful to check your post for spelling mistakes and scan it for redundancy, duplicate words and redundancy. * Clear replies and a short mailing list thread are much easier to read and follow than long threads. * If you are replying to a post, please reply in-line if possible and cut extra text that is not relevant to your point. Private replies and responding to posts off-list * Please post answers back to the list so others can benefit: private conversations don't benefit people who may only be following along on the list or reading the archives later. * We're only human: you may want to respond to someone off-list to make a point (or to wish them Happy Birthday / comment that you haven't seen them for a long time). We're also a community BUT * Posting outside the list can be unhelpful: bad behaviour outside the lists can't easily be dealt with and will be invisible. You may inadvertently leak personal information by posting a private reply back to the list. If you *do* want to post outside the list - make it clear that you have done so at the top of the message. If someone replies to you privately and you think that this should go back to the list - ask them to post it to the list do not just do so on their behalf without checking. I can't see what I want here - help me! === * It is often useful to look through the archives to see whether the issue you wish to raise or a similar issue has been raised before by someone else. The top level link to the archives of this list is at https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/ organised by year, then month. * Although there are only 20 or 30 regular contributors, there may be a couple of thousand readers in the background. Nobody is a mind reader, nobody can sit beside you. Please help by providing useful details if asked, especially which version of Debian you are running. I'm not using Debian but ... * Strictly, discussions of other distributions are off-topic here. Please note: advice on Linux distributions other than Debian will be only our best guess - other distributions may do things very differently. Any advice given accordingly may be inaccurate but is given in good faith. FAQ topics == * There is an FAQ on the Debian wiki derived from some questions asked on this list at https://wiki.debian.org/FAQsFromDebianUser This is a public list, archived in many places == * One question that comes up
Re: Monthly FAQ for Debian-user mailing list (modified 20231216)
Could we perchance add something to the FAQ about the inappropriateness of reposting private replies to the list without first confirming with the people involved that doing so is acceptable? -- Michael Kjörling https://michael.kjorling.se “Remember when, on the Internet, nobody cared that you were a dog?”
Monthly FAQ for Debian-user mailing list (modified 20231216)
Debian-user is a mailing list provided for support for Debian users, and to facilitate discussion on relevant topics. Some guidelines which may help explain how the list works: * The language on this mailing list is English. There may be other mailing lists that are language-specific, for example, debian-user-french * It is common for users to be redirected here from other lists, for example, from debian-project. It is also common for people to be posting here when English is not their primary language. Please be considerate. * The list is a Debian communication forum. As such, it is subject to both the Debian mailing list Code of Conduct and the main Debian Code of Conduct https://www.debian.org/MailingLists/#codeofconduct https://www.debian.org/code_of_conduct * It is not necessary to answer every post on the mailing list. * Be constructive in your responses. It may be that somebody else answers a question before you - if so, you should not reply in order to get the last word in, only reply if you can add useful information. * Before posting, it may be useful to check your post for spelling mistakes and scan it for redundancy, duplicate words and redundancy. * Clear replies and a short mailing list thread may be much easier to read than long threads. * This is a fairly busy mailing list and you may have to wait for an answer - please be patient. * Please post answers back to the list so others can benefit: private conversations don't benefit people who may only be following along on the list or reading the archives later. * It is helpful to write meaningful subject lines. If you change subject or emphasis in mid-thread, please change the subject line on the email accordingly. * It may also be useful to for someone to post a summary email from time to time to explain long threads. * It is often useful to look through the archives to see whether the issue you wish to raise or a similar issue has been raised before by someone else. The top level link to the archives of this list is at https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/ organised by year, then month. * Help and advice on this list is provided by volunteers in their own time. It is common for there to be different opinions or answers provided. * Strictly, discussions of other distributions are off-topic here. Please note: advice on Linux distributions other than Debian will be only our best guess - other distributions may do things very differently. Any advice given accordingly may be inaccurate but is given in good faith. * Please try to stay on topic. Arguments for the sake of it are not welcome here. Partisan political / religious / cultural arguments do not belong here either. Debian's community is world wide; do not assume others will agree with your views or need to read them on a Debian list. * There is an FAQ on the Debian wiki derived from some questions asked on this list at https://wiki.debian.org/FAQsFromDebianUser * One question that comes up on almost all Debian lists from time to time is of the form: "I have done something wrong / included personal details in an email. Could you please delete my name / details / remove the mail" Practically, this is impossible: the mailing lists are archived, potentially cached by Google and so on. Unfortunately, there is nothing much we can do to ensure that all copies anywhere on the Internet are deleted. Asking to do this may only serve to draw further attention - the so-called "Streisand effect" See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Streisand_effect Problems? = Complaints about inappropriate behaviour should be referred to the Debian Community Team . Inappropriate behaviour on the list may lead to warnings: repeated bad behaviour may lead to temporary or permanent bans for offenders.
Monthly FAQ for Debian-user mailing list (modified x2 16th December 2023)
Debian-user is a mailing list provided for support for Debian users, and to facilitate discussion on relevant topics. Some guidelines which may help explain how the list works: * The language on this mailing list is English. There may be other mailing lists that are language-specific, for example, debian-user-french * It is common for users to be redirected here from other lists, for example, from debian-project. It is also common for people to be posting here when English is not their primary language. Please be considerate. * The list is a Debian communication forum. As such, it is subject to both the Debian mailing list Code of Conduct and the main Debian Code of Conduct https://www.debian.org/MailingLists/#codeofconduct https://www.debian.org/code_of_conduct * It is not necessary to answer every post on the mailing list. * Be constructive in your responses. It may be that somebody else answers a question before you - if so, you should not reply in order to get the last word in, only reply if you can add useful information. * Before posting, it may be useful to check your post for spelling mistakes and scan it for redundancy, duplicate words and redundancy. * Clear replies and a short mailing list thread may be much easier to read than long threads. * This is a fairly busy mailing list and you may have to wait for an answer - please be patient. * Please post answers back to the list so others can benefit: private conversations don't benefit people who may only be following along on the list or reading the archives later. * It is helpful to write meaningful subject lines. If you change subject or emphasis in mid-thread, please change the subject line on the email accordingly. * It may also be useful for either a thread contributor or an observer to post a summary email from time to time to summarise long threads or to effectively bring a long thread to an end. * It is often useful to look through the archives to see whether the issue you wish to raise or a similar issue has been raised before by someone else. The top level link to the archives of this list is at https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/ organised by year, then month. * Help and advice on this list is provided by volunteers in their own time. It is common for there to be different opinions or answers provided. * Strictly, discussions of other distributions are off-topic here. Please note: advice on Linux distributions other than Debian will be only our best guess - other distributions may do things very differently. Any advice given accordingly may be inaccurate but is given in good faith. * Please try to stay on topic. Arguments for the sake of it are not welcome here. Partisan political / religious / cultural arguments do not belong here either. Debian's community is world wide; do not assume others will agree with your views or need to read them on a Debian list. * There is an FAQ on the Debian wiki derived from some questions asked on this list at https://wiki.debian.org/FAQsFromDebianUser * One question that comes up on almost all Debian lists from time to time is of the form: "I have done something wrong / included personal details in an email. Could you please delete my name / details / remove the mail" Practically, this is impossible: the mailing lists are archived, potentially cached by Google and so on. Unfortunately, there is nothing much we can do to ensure that all copies anywhere on the Internet are deleted. Asking to do this may only serve to draw further attention - the so-called "Streisand effect" See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Streisand_effect Problems? = Complaints about inappropriate behaviour should be referred to the Debian Community Team . Inappropriate behaviour on the list may lead to warnings: repeated bad behaviour may lead to temporary or permanent bans for offenders.
Re: Monthly FAQ for Debian-user mailing list (modified 16th December 2023)
Hi, Andrew M.A. Cater wrote: > * It may also be useful to for someone to post a summary email from time to > time to explain long threads. You did not move the old "to" but rather added a new one during the change from the text in 2023/12/msg00045.html to the new one: > > * It may also be useful to post a summary email from time to time to > > explain long threads. As we are at it, i think the term "for someone" does not add much of information. Do you have in mind future readers of the archive ? Or casual readers who got lost in forth and back ? Or contributors who deviated from the original topic of the thread ? Further: I see a surplus leading blank in the line " and scan it for redundancy, duplicate words and redundancy." Other lines have only two of those blanks. I see an inner double blank in " Any advice given accordingly may be inaccurate but is given in good faith." Have a nice day :) Thomas
Monthly FAQ for Debian-user mailing list (modified 16th December 2023)
Debian-user is a mailing list provided for support for Debian users, and to facilitate discussion on relevant topics. Some guidelines which may help explain how the list works: * The language on this mailing list is English. There may be other mailing lists that are language-specific, for example, debian-user-french * It is common for users to be redirected here from other lists, for example, from debian-project. It is also common for people to be posting here when English is not their primary language. Please be considerate. * The list is a Debian communication forum. As such, it is subject to both the Debian mailing list Code of Conduct and the main Debian Code of Conduct https://www.debian.org/MailingLists/#codeofconduct https://www.debian.org/code_of_conduct * It is not necessary to answer every post on the mailing list. * Be constructive in your responses. It may be that somebody else answers a question before you - if so, you should not reply in order to get the last word in, only reply if you can add useful information. * Before posting, it may be useful to check your post for spelling mistakes and scan it for redundancy, duplicate words and redundancy. * Clear replies and a short mailing list thread may be much easier to read than long threads. * This is a fairly busy mailing list and you may have to wait for an answer - please be patient. * Please post answers back to the list so others can benefit: private conversations don't benefit people who may only be following along on the list or reading the archives later. * It is helpful to write meaningful subject lines. If you change subject or emphasis in mid-thread, please change the subject line on the email accordingly. * It may also be useful to for someone to post a summary email from time to time to explain long threads. * It is often useful to look through the archives to see whether the issue you wish to raise or a similar issue has been raised before by someone else. The top level link to the archives of this list is at https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/ organised by year, then month. * Help and advice on this list is provided by volunteers in their own time. It is common for there to be different opinions or answers provided. * Strictly, discussions of other distributions are off-topic here. Please note: advice on Linux distributions other than Debian will be only our best guess - other distributions may do things very differently. Any advice given accordingly may be inaccurate but is given in good faith. * Please try to stay on topic. Arguments for the sake of it are not welcome here. Partisan political / religious / cultural arguments do not belong here either. Debian's community is world wide; do not assume others will agree with your views or need to read them on a Debian list. * There is an FAQ on the Debian wiki derived from some questions asked on this list at https://wiki.debian.org/FAQsFromDebianUser * One question that comes up on almost all Debian lists from time to time is of the form: "I have done something wrong / included personal details in an email. Could you please delete my name / details / remove the mail" Practically, this is impossible: the mailing lists are archived, potentially cached by Google and so on. Unfortunately, there is nothing much we can do to ensure that all copies anywhere on the Internet are deleted. Asking to do this may only serve to draw further attention - the so-called "Streisand effect" See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Streisand_effect Problems? = Complaints about inappropriate behaviour should be referred to the Debian Community Team . Inappropriate behaviour on the list may lead to warnings: repeated bad behaviour may lead to temporary or permanent bans for offenders.
Please don't clutter list
Please start new threads when sidelining into silly arguments. The "IMPORTANT: do NOT upgrade" thread is getting cluttered with useless junk making it hard to determine the current status of the problem. Also, use a new thread, don't just change the subject line. Some threading mail readers follow the "References" headers still creating confusion. Stuart -- I've never been lost; I was once bewildered for three days, but never lost! -- Daniel Boone
Re: Mailing List
On Sun 03 Dec 2023 at 10:01:25 (+0100), Thomas Schmitt wrote: > David Wright wrote: > > I'm subscribed, but I don't receive that badge of honour. > > This is from my other post in this thread—no LDOSUBSCRIBER: > > > > > X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.9 required=4.0 tests=CAPINIT,FOURLA, > > > HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS,LDO_WHITELIST,RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW, > > > T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no > > > version=3.4.2 > > This is known to happen if the mail is sent from an address that is different > from the subscribed mail address. Maybe you discovered a new cause. > > > > I'm guessing your last example is Curt's. > > > X-Spam-Status: No, > > > score=-10.5 required=4.0 tests=FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN, > > > FREEMAIL_FROM,HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS,LDOSUBSCRIBER, > > > LDO_WHITELIST,T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE autolearn=unavailable > > > autolearn_force=no version=3.4.2 > > Yes. It's from: > > Subject: Re: rhs time out error? > Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2023 16:30:02 - (UTC) > Message-ID: > > > The only occurrence of > > the From: address in the entire email is in the From: line. > > That's no different from my own post, except for the lines at the > > very top, which show my post being delivered to me. > > > > I had thought the server was using the envelope-from in order to > > identify subscribers, yet Curt's posts, like mine, have different > > envelope-from and From: addresses, which is presumably the reason > > behind HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS. > > HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS would have been my first suspicion, too. > But i see no "envelope-from" Curt's mail and yours. > Only > Envelope-To: > (If "envelope-from" is a typo and "Envelope-To:" differs from "From:", > then we'd probably have the situation of different sender and receiver.) As you can see from the headers I've posted below, what the envelope-to (RCPT) gets called depends on the hosting service. In my case, it's the X-Original-To: header. (As the list server generates it, it won't take part in spam detection, of course.) OTOH the envelope-from (MAIL/MAIL FROM) is, I presume, of great interest to the spam scanners, perhaps more than the From: address itself, because it's more likely to be checked by the mail submission system. Curt's envelope-from is embedded in a Received: header, pasted here with some surrounding context: Received: from ciao.gmane.io (ciao.gmane.io [116.202.254.214]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange ECDHE (P-256) server-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) server-digest SHA256) (Client did not present a certificate) by bendel.debian.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D0D83205F2 for ; Sun, 26 Nov 2023 16:30:11 + (UTC) Received: from list by ciao.gmane.io with local (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1r7I1I-0001BZ-JA for debian-user@lists.debian.org; Sun, 26 Nov 2023 17:30:08 +0100 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: debian-user@lists.debian.org > It would be interesting to see all "Received:" headers of your own > mail when it arrives back to you. I see in your mail to which i now reply: > > Received: from bendel.debian.org ([82.195.75.100]) by mx-ha.gmx.net > (mxgmx109 > [212.227.17.5]) with ESMTPS (Nemesis) id 1MZzsi-1qmfcQ0kRo-00R0wN for > ; Sun, 03 Dec 2023 05:24:06 +0100 > Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) > by bendel.debian.org (Postfix) with QMQP > id 0F8C9209D5; Sun, 3 Dec 2023 04:23:55 + (UTC) > Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) > by bendel.debian.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0413D20837 > for ; Sun, > 3 Dec 2023 04:23:42 + (UTC) > Received: from bendel.debian.org ([127.0.0.1]) > by localhost (lists.debian.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 2525) > with ESMTP id 1Ym_tsLfWzf6 for ; > Sun, 3 Dec 2023 04:23:33 + (UTC) > Received: from omta012.uswest2.a.cloudfilter.net > (omta012.uswest2.a.cloudfilter.net [35.164.127.235]) > (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) > (Client CN "Client", Issuer "CA" (not verified)) > by bendel.debian.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1A7BD209C6 > for ; Sun, > 3 Dec 2023 04:23:32 + (UTC) > Received: from cxr.smtp.a.cloudfilter.net ([10.0.16.145]) > by cmsmtp with ESMTP > id 9deErTpHpaga99e0vrCJA8; Sun, 03 Dec 2023 04:23:29 + > Received: from axis.corp ([68.102.133.185]) > by cmsmtp with ESMTPSA > id 9e0srwhHYTywR9e0urtWnm; Sun, 03 Dec 2023 04:23:29 + > > All t
Re: Mailing List
On Fri 01 Dec 2023 at 20:39:51 (+), piorunz wrote: > On 01/12/2023 16:15, to...@tuxteam.de wrote: > > > > Your message is here, so you are subscribed :) > > > > Not necessarily, you can post here as a non-subscriber. Actually I have > > the hunch that the OP is not subscribed (going by the X-Spam-Status header). > > > > Cheers > > Oh, ok, I didn't know that. That's why the group receives so much spam > lol -_- Almost all the spam I receive addressed to deblis@… has not come from the list server: the address deblis@… has been harvested. Currently they're translators and cushions; last month I'd won tens of millions of dollars many times over, from a slew of slebs. And there's the perennial trickle of mailbox-full/hacked/expired phishing expeditions. I don't blame the list admins. Cheers, David.
Re: Mailing List
Hi, David Wright wrote: > I'm subscribed, but I don't receive that badge of honour. > This is from my other post in this thread—no LDOSUBSCRIBER: > > > X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.9 required=4.0 tests=CAPINIT,FOURLA, > > HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS,LDO_WHITELIST,RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW, > > T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no > > version=3.4.2 This is known to happen if the mail is sent from an address that is different from the subscribed mail address. Maybe you discovered a new cause. > I'm guessing your last example is Curt's. > > X-Spam-Status: No, > > score=-10.5 required=4.0 tests=FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN, > > FREEMAIL_FROM,HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS,LDOSUBSCRIBER, > > LDO_WHITELIST,T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE autolearn=unavailable > > autolearn_force=no version=3.4.2 Yes. It's from: Subject: Re: rhs time out error? Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2023 16:30:02 - (UTC) Message-ID: > The only occurrence of > the From: address in the entire email is in the From: line. > That's no different from my own post, except for the lines at the > very top, which show my post being delivered to me. > > I had thought the server was using the envelope-from in order to > identify subscribers, yet Curt's posts, like mine, have different > envelope-from and From: addresses, which is presumably the reason > behind HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS. HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS would have been my first suspicion, too. But i see no "envelope-from" Curt's mail and yours. Only Envelope-To: (If "envelope-from" is a typo and "Envelope-To:" differs from "From:", then we'd probably have the situation of different sender and receiver.) It would be interesting to see all "Received:" headers of your own mail when it arrives back to you. I see in your mail to which i now reply: Received: from bendel.debian.org ([82.195.75.100]) by mx-ha.gmx.net (mxgmx109 [212.227.17.5]) with ESMTPS (Nemesis) id 1MZzsi-1qmfcQ0kRo-00R0wN for ; Sun, 03 Dec 2023 05:24:06 +0100 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by bendel.debian.org (Postfix) with QMQP id 0F8C9209D5; Sun, 3 Dec 2023 04:23:55 + (UTC) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by bendel.debian.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0413D20837 for ; Sun, 3 Dec 2023 04:23:42 + (UTC) Received: from bendel.debian.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (lists.debian.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 2525) with ESMTP id 1Ym_tsLfWzf6 for ; Sun, 3 Dec 2023 04:23:33 + (UTC) Received: from omta012.uswest2.a.cloudfilter.net (omta012.uswest2.a.cloudfilter.net [35.164.127.235]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "Client", Issuer "CA" (not verified)) by bendel.debian.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1A7BD209C6 for ; Sun, 3 Dec 2023 04:23:32 + (UTC) Received: from cxr.smtp.a.cloudfilter.net ([10.0.16.145]) by cmsmtp with ESMTP id 9deErTpHpaga99e0vrCJA8; Sun, 03 Dec 2023 04:23:29 + Received: from axis.corp ([68.102.133.185]) by cmsmtp with ESMTPSA id 9e0srwhHYTywR9e0urtWnm; Sun, 03 Dec 2023 04:23:29 + All these headers except the first were added on the sender side, i.e on the list server bendel.debian.org and in your mail provider's realm. In a mail of mine to this list i see: Received: from bendel.debian.org ([82.195.75.100]) by mx-ha.gmx.net (mxgmx009 [212.227.15.9]) with ESMTPS (Nemesis) id 1MMYsv-1qsRpG2aBT-00SPIm for ; Fri, 01 Dec 2023 21:11:45 +0100 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by bendel.debian.org (Postfix) with QMQP id 869AC20BB3; Fri, 1 Dec 2023 20:11:33 + (UTC) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by bendel.debian.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 920DB20B9A for ; Fri, 1 Dec 2023 20:11:22 + (UTC) Received: from bendel.debian.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (lists.debian.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 2525) with ESMTP id g1fSuxvi8ZX9 for ; Fri, 1 Dec 2023 20:11:19 + (UTC) Received: from mout.gmx.net (mout.gmx.net [212.227.15.15]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange ECDHE (P-256) server-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) server-digest SHA256) (Client did not present a certificate) by bendel.debian.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 14F4520A27 for ; Fri, 1 Dec 2023 20:11:19 + (UTC) Received: from scdbackup.webframe.org ([91.8.169.164]) by mail.gmx.net (mrgmx005 [212.227.17.190]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 1Mqs0R-1reJbZ24e1-00mwgO for ; Fri, 01 Dec 2023 21:11:16 +0100 So there is one mail relay hop more on your side, before the mail reaches the Debian list server. I wonder whether this earns you the spam test attribute HEADER_FROM_DIFFEREN
Re: Mailing List
On Fri 01 Dec 2023 at 17:24:53 (+0100), Thomas Schmitt wrote: > > > Anyone one else having trouble with the mailing list? > > I got your message via the list. > > > Have received any messages since Nov 30 > > Normal traffic yesterday and today, i'd say. > > > I can not tell if I am still subscribed > > The "From:" address poc...@columbus.rr.com seems not to be recognized as > being subscribed. > The message to which i reply bears no "LDOSUBSCRIBER": > > X-Spam-Status: No, score=2.7 required=4.0 tests=CAPINIT,HTML_MESSAGE, > KHOP_HELO_FCRDNS,LDO_WHITELIST,META_ATTENDEES_DBSPAM1, > RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2,T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE autolearn=no autolearn_force=no > version=3.4.2 > > Unlike examples of other messages from other sender to the list: > > X-Spam-Status: No, score=-10.7 required=4.0 tests=DKIM_SIGNED,DKIM_VALID, > FOURLA,LDOSUBSCRIBER,LDO_WHITELIST,RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW, > T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE,WORD_WITHOUT_VOWELS autolearn=unavailable > autolearn_force=no version=3.4.2 > > X-Spam-Status: No, score=-8.7 required=4.0 tests=DKIM_SIGNED,DKIM_VALID, > DKIM_VALID_AU,DKIM_VALID_EF,FORGED_HOTMAIL_RCVD2,FOURLA,FREEMAIL_FROM, > HTML_MESSAGE,LDOSUBSCRIBER,LDO_WHITELIST,RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE, > RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2,T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE autolearn=unavailable > autolearn_force=no version=3.4.2 > > X-Spam-Status: No, > score=-10.5 required=4.0 tests=FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN, > FREEMAIL_FROM,HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS,LDOSUBSCRIBER, > LDO_WHITELIST,T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE autolearn=unavailable > autolearn_force=no version=3.4.2 I'm subscribed, but I don't receive that badge of honour. This is from my other post in this thread—no LDOSUBSCRIBER: > X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.9 required=4.0 tests=CAPINIT,FOURLA, > HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS,LDO_WHITELIST,RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW, > T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no > version=3.4.2 I'm guessing your last example is Curt's. The only occurrence of the From: address in the entire email is in the From: line. That's no different from my own post, except for the lines at the very top, which show my post being delivered to me. I had thought the server was using the envelope-from in order to identify subscribers, yet Curt's posts, like mine, have different envelope-from and From: addresses, which is presumably the reason behind HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS. Cheers, David.
Re: Mailing List
On 12/1/23 11:36, debian-u...@howorth.org.uk wrote: Pocket wrote: Anyone one else having trouble with the mailing list? Have received any messages since Nov 30 I can not tell if I am still subscribed I get Error: Overload On thehttps://lists.debian.org/users.html page Looks like I was dropped from the list It took me awhile to figure out but here is what I found Send an email to: majord...@lists.debian.org which in the message body That will show what you are subscribed to Then send and email to: majord...@lists.debian.org subscribe in the message body And you should get conformation.
Re: Mailing List
On Fri, Dec 01, 2023 at 08:39:51PM +, piorunz wrote: > On 01/12/2023 16:15, to...@tuxteam.de wrote: > > > > Your message is here, so you are subscribed :) > > > > Not necessarily, you can post here as a non-subscriber. Actually I have > > the hunch that the OP is not subscribed (going by the X-Spam-Status header). > > > > Cheers > > Oh, ok, I didn't know that. That's why the group receives so much spam > lol -_- I think this is unfair: given the list's volume (~3k members, ~0.5k posts per month) I find spam ratio to be no less than stellar. I'm sure there is quite a bit of quiet work behind the scenes to keep things running *that* smoothly. Keeping the list open to non-subscribers goes a long way of making Debian itself open, so I understand and support that decision. Cheers -- t signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: Monthly FAQ for Debian-user mailing list (modified 1st December2023)
On Fri, Dec 01, 2023 at 07:30:47PM +, Andrew M.A. Cater wrote: > On Fri, Dec 01, 2023 at 08:18:13PM +0100, Thomas Schmitt wrote: > > Hi, > > > > there is a new surplus word "private" in these lines: > > > > > * Please post answers back to the list so others can benefit: private > > > private conversations don't benefit people who may only be following > > > > > > Have a nice day :) > > > > Thomas > > > > OK, you know how it is when you only notice the mistake *after* you've > posted it ... I'm unsure whether to republish this with an additional > line > > * Before posting, it may be useful to check your post for spelling mistakes > and scan it for redundancy, duplicate words and redundancy. :-) Thanks you both (& so many others!) for shining steady lights here. Cheers -- t signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: Mailing List
piorunz writes: > On 01/12/2023 16:15, to...@tuxteam.de wrote: > >>> Your message is here, so you are subscribed :) >> >> Not necessarily, you can post here as a non-subscriber. Actually I have >> the hunch that the OP is not subscribed (going by the X-Spam-Status header). >> >> Cheers > > Oh, ok, I didn't know that. That's why the group receives so much spam No. This group does not has a lot of spam. KJ
Re: Mailing List
On Fri 01 Dec 2023 at 16:32:44 (+), Joe wrote: > On Fri, 1 Dec 2023 17:12:56 +0100 > Marco Moock wrote: > > Am 01.12.2023 um 15:55:41 Uhr schrieb Joe: > > > > > I received a message timed 22:52 on 28th, the last that day, the > > > next three were on 29th at > > > 08:39 > > > 13:14 > > > 15:55 > > > then normal flow was resumed, which is typically about 50 messages > > > per day. > > > > > > So yes, there was a problem. > > > Times UTC by the way. > > > > IIRC the amount of messages varies depending on how much people take > > part in discussions. > > > > I don't think the current behavior is unusual. > > > > No, it's fine now, but there definitely was a blockage on the 29th. It > returned to normal about 16:00 UTC and has been OK since then. I can certainly see the gap you mention—I got nothing from the list between 2023-11-28 22:34:58+00:00 (arrived in ~Manchester 2023-11-28T22:35:24+00:00) and 2023-11-29 17:49:37+00:00 (arrived 2023-11-29T17:50:03+00:00) /unless/ I just happen to have deleted everything in that period (unlikely as I have the entirety of gene's thread). Looking at everything I still have from the list over 28th/29th (in Central time), I only see two trivial delays between posting and delivery here: Felix M (~5 min) and Dan R (15 min). What I don't see is any posts sent during that gap but delivered afterwards. PS Your clock is ahead, Dan P. Cheers, David.
Re: Mailing List
On 01/12/2023 16:15, to...@tuxteam.de wrote: Your message is here, so you are subscribed :) Not necessarily, you can post here as a non-subscriber. Actually I have the hunch that the OP is not subscribed (going by the X-Spam-Status header). Cheers Oh, ok, I didn't know that. That's why the group receives so much spam lol -_- -- With kindest regards, Piotr. ⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀ ⣾⠁⢠⠒⠀⣿⡁ Debian - The universal operating system ⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋⠀ https://www.debian.org/ ⠈⠳⣄
Re: Monthly FAQ for Debian-user mailing list (modified 1st December2023)
Hi, Andrew M.A. Cater wrote: > * Before posting, it may be useful to check your post for spelling mistakes > and scan it for redundancy, duplicate words and redundancy. Some wisdom cannot be repeated enough. Have a nice day :) Thomas
Re: Monthly FAQ for Debian-user mailing list (modified 1st December2023)
On Fri, Dec 01, 2023 at 08:18:13PM +0100, Thomas Schmitt wrote: > Hi, > > there is a new surplus word "private" in these lines: > > > * Please post answers back to the list so others can benefit: private > > private conversations don't benefit people who may only be following > > > Have a nice day :) > > Thomas > OK, you know how it is when you only notice the mistake *after* you've posted it ... I'm unsure whether to republish this with an additional line * Before posting, it may be useful to check your post for spelling mistakes and scan it for redundancy, duplicate words and redundancy. With every good wish, as ever, Andy [amaca...@debian.org]
Re: Monthly FAQ for Debian-user mailing list (modified 1st December2023)
Hi, there is a new surplus word "private" in these lines: > * Please post answers back to the list so others can benefit: private > private conversations don't benefit people who may only be following Have a nice day :) Thomas
Monthly FAQ for Debian-user mailing list (modified 1st December 2023)
Debian-user is a mailing list provided for support for Debian users, and to facilitate discussion on relevant topics. Some guidelines which may help explain how the list works: * The language on this mailing list is English. There may be other mailing lists that are language-specific, for example, debian-user-french * It is common for users to be redirected here from other lists, for example, from debian-project. It is also common for people to be posting here when English is not their primary language. Please be considerate. * The list is a Debian communication forum. As such, it is subject to both the Debian mailing list Code of Conduct and the main Debian Code of Conduct https://www.debian.org/MailingLists/#codeofconduct https://www.debian.org/code_of_conduct * It is not necessary to answer every post on the mailing list. Be constructive in your responses. It may be that somebody else answers a question before you - if so, you should not reply in order to get the last word in, only reply if you can add useful information. * Clear replies and a short mailing list thread may be much easier to read than long threads. * This is a fairly busy mailing list and you may have to wait for an answer - please be patient. * Please post answers back to the list so others can benefit: private private conversations don't benefit people who may only be following along on the list or reading the archives later. * It is helpful to write meaningful subject lines. If you change subject or emphasis in mid-thread, please change the subject line on the email accordingly. * It may also be useful to post a summary email from time to time to explain long threads. * It is often useful to look through the archives to see whether the issue you wish to raise or a similar issue has been raised before by someone else. The top level link to the archives of this list is at https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/ organised by year, then month. * Help and advice on this list is provided by volunteers in their own time. It is common for there to be different opinions or answers provided. Please note: advice on Linux distributions other than Debian may be inaccurate and, strictly, discussions of other distributions are off-topic here. * Please try to stay on topic. Arguments for the sake of it are not welcome here. Partisan political / religious / cultural arguments do not belong here either. Debian's community is world wide; do not assume others will agree with your views or need to read them on a Debian list. * There is an FAQ on the Debian wiki derived from some questions asked on this list at https://wiki.debian.org/FAQsFromDebianUser * One question that comes up on almost all Debian lists from time to time is of the form: "I have done something wrong / included personal details in an email. Could you please delete my name / details / remove the mail" Practically, this is impossible: the mailing lists are archived, potentially cached by Google and so on. Unfortunately, there is nothing much we can do to ensure that all copies anywhere on the Internet are deleted. Asking to do this may only serve to draw further attention - the so-called "Streisand effect" See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Streisand_effect Problems? = Complaints about inappropriate behaviour should be referred to the Debian Community Team . Inappropriate behaviour on the list may lead to warnings; repeated bad behaviour may lead to temporary or permanent bans for offenders.
Re: Mailing List
Pocket wrote: > Anyone one else having trouble with the mailing list? > > Have received any messages since Nov 30 > > I can not tell if I am still subscribed > > I get > > Error: Overload > > On the https://lists.debian.org/users.html page Your message made it to the list. Various people commented and you can see them in the archive as well as your own post at: https://lists.debian.org/msgid-search/14a3f8ab-8475-45c2-ae1c-b05ab135c...@columbus.rr.com FWIW, I haven't noticed anything strange but I haven't been observing closely.
Re: Mailing List
On Fri, 1 Dec 2023 17:12:56 +0100 Marco Moock wrote: > Am 01.12.2023 um 15:55:41 Uhr schrieb Joe: > > > I received a message timed 22:52 on 28th, the last that day, the > > next three were on 29th at > > 08:39 > > 13:14 > > 15:55 > > then normal flow was resumed, which is typically about 50 messages > > per day. > > > > So yes, there was a problem. > > Times UTC by the way. > > IIRC the amount of messages varies depending on how much people take > part in discussions. > > I don't think the current behavior is unusual. > No, it's fine now, but there definitely was a blockage on the 29th. It returned to normal about 16:00 UTC and has been OK since then. -- Joe
Re: Mailing List
Hi, > Anyone one else having trouble with the mailing list? I got your message via the list. > Have received any messages since Nov 30 Normal traffic yesterday and today, i'd say. > I can not tell if I am still subscribed The "From:" address poc...@columbus.rr.com seems not to be recognized as being subscribed. The message to which i reply bears no "LDOSUBSCRIBER": X-Spam-Status: No, score=2.7 required=4.0 tests=CAPINIT,HTML_MESSAGE, KHOP_HELO_FCRDNS,LDO_WHITELIST,META_ATTENDEES_DBSPAM1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2,T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE autolearn=no autolearn_force=no version=3.4.2 Unlike examples of other messages from other sender to the list: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-10.7 required=4.0 tests=DKIM_SIGNED,DKIM_VALID, FOURLA,LDOSUBSCRIBER,LDO_WHITELIST,RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE,WORD_WITHOUT_VOWELS autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no version=3.4.2 X-Spam-Status: No, score=-8.7 required=4.0 tests=DKIM_SIGNED,DKIM_VALID, DKIM_VALID_AU,DKIM_VALID_EF,FORGED_HOTMAIL_RCVD2,FOURLA,FREEMAIL_FROM, HTML_MESSAGE,LDOSUBSCRIBER,LDO_WHITELIST,RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2,T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no version=3.4.2 X-Spam-Status: No, score=-10.5 required=4.0 tests=FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN, FREEMAIL_FROM,HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS,LDOSUBSCRIBER, LDO_WHITELIST,T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no version=3.4.2 > I get > Error: Overload > On the https://lists.debian.org/users.html [lists.debian.org] page That's quite a long page. Try https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/ https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2023/12/threads.html and your message at https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2023/12/msg00028.html Have a nice day :) Thomas
Re: Mailing List
On Fri, Dec 01, 2023 at 03:24:33PM +, piorunz wrote: > On 01/12/2023 15:05, Pocket wrote: > > Anyone one else having trouble with the mailing list? > > > > Have received any messages since Nov 30 > > > > I can not tell if I am still subscribed > > Your message is here, so you are subscribed :) Not necessarily, you can post here as a non-subscriber. Actually I have the hunch that the OP is not subscribed (going by the X-Spam-Status header). Cheers -- t signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: Mailing List
Am 01.12.2023 um 15:55:41 Uhr schrieb Joe: > I received a message timed 22:52 on 28th, the last that day, the next > three were on 29th at > 08:39 > 13:14 > 15:55 > then normal flow was resumed, which is typically about 50 messages per > day. > > So yes, there was a problem. > Times UTC by the way. IIRC the amount of messages varies depending on how much people take part in discussions. I don't think the current behavior is unusual.
Re: Mailing List
Am 01.12.2023 um 10:05:02 Uhr schrieb Pocket: > I get > > > Error: Overload > > On the https://lists.debian.org/users.html page Works perfectly fine for me.
Re: Mailing List
On 01/12/2023 15:05, Pocket wrote: Anyone one else having trouble with the mailing list? Have received any messages since Nov 30 I can not tell if I am still subscribed Your message is here, so you are subscribed :) -- With kindest regards, Piotr. ⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀ ⣾⠁⢠⠒⠀⣿⡁ Debian - The universal operating system ⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋⠀ https://www.debian.org/ ⠈⠳⣄
Mailing List
Anyone one else having trouble with the mailing list? Have received any messages since Nov 30 I can not tell if I am still subscribed I get Error: Overload On the https://lists.debian.org/users.html page -- It's not easy to be me
Re: limit on attachment in mail to list
On Sat 11 Nov 2023, at 20:56, Thomas Schmitt wrote: On Sat 11 Nov 2023, at 20:23, Greg Wooledge wrote: >> Telnet to bendel, port 25. Wait for the banner. Type "EHLO your.domain". >> Type "quit" to get out. > > The protocol is named SMTP. > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simple_Mail_Transfer_Protocol Oh yes ;) Thanks to Greg and Thomas. Gareth
Re: limit on attachment in mail to list
Hi, > On Sat, Nov 11, 2023 at 08:16:20PM +, Gareth Evans wrote: > > > On 9 Nov 2023, at 13:47, Byung-Hee HWANG wrote: > > > > > > 220 bendel.debian.org ESMTP Postfix > > > ehlo penguin > > > 250-bendel.debian.org > > > 250-PIPELINING > > > 250-SIZE 3072 > > > 250-STARTTLS > > > 250-ENHANCEDSTATUSCODES > > > 250-8BITMIME > > > 250 CHUNKING > > > quit > > > 221 2.0.0 Bye > > > > > > > Hi Byung-Hee, > > > > How did you generate that, assuming it's a response to some command(s)? > > Telnet to bendel, port 25. Wait for the banner. Type "EHLO your.domain". > Type "quit" to get out. The protocol is named SMTP. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simple_Mail_Transfer_Protocol Have a nice day :) Thomas
Re: limit on attachment in mail to list
On Sat, Nov 11, 2023 at 08:16:20PM +, Gareth Evans wrote: > > On 9 Nov 2023, at 13:47, Byung-Hee HWANG wrote: > > > > 220 bendel.debian.org ESMTP Postfix > > ehlo penguin > > 250-bendel.debian.org > > 250-PIPELINING > > 250-SIZE 3072 > > 250-STARTTLS > > 250-ENHANCEDSTATUSCODES > > 250-8BITMIME > > 250 CHUNKING > > quit > > 221 2.0.0 Bye > > > > Hi Byung-Hee, > > How did you generate that, assuming it's a response to some command(s)? Telnet to bendel, port 25. Wait for the banner. Type "EHLO your.domain". Type "quit" to get out.
Re: limit on attachment in mail to list
> On 9 Nov 2023, at 13:47, Byung-Hee HWANG wrote: > > [...] > > 220 bendel.debian.org ESMTP Postfix > ehlo penguin > 250-bendel.debian.org > 250-PIPELINING > 250-SIZE 3072 > 250-STARTTLS > 250-ENHANCEDSTATUSCODES > 250-8BITMIME > 250 CHUNKING > quit > 221 2.0.0 Bye > Hi Byung-Hee, How did you generate that, assuming it's a response to some command(s)? Thanks, Gareth > > So 3072 bytes? > > Still it was not tested myself... > > > Sincerely, Byung-Hee >
Re: limit on attachment in mail to list
On Fri, 10 Nov 2023 19:01:57 -0600
Nicholas Geovanis wrote:
Hello Nicholas,
>
>Or maybe they are used to the more recently-devised file sharing
>services which let you exchange zillions of much larger files than this
>list allows, but every hour. On any given day I might listen to several
You/they go there voluntarily. No one's forcing you to. Forcing
everyone on a ML to d/l one's 1meg+ attachment is a very different thing.
>It's a different use-case but the thoughts are all the same: Have you
'lack of thoughts' more like.
>ever used, say, an S3 bucket for your Debian EC2 VM in Amazon cloud?
No. No VM. No Amazon. More generally - No cloud services.
--
Regards _ "Valid sig separator is {dash}{dash}{space}"
/ ) "The blindingly obvious is never immediately apparent"
/ _)rad "Is it only me that has a working delete key?"
I don't care about anyone else I just care about me
I Just Care About Me - Stiff Little Fingers
pgp96szBswl1_.pgp
Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: limit on attachment in mail to list
On Fri, Nov 10, 2023 at 07:01:57PM -0600, Nicholas Geovanis wrote: > On Fri, Nov 10, 2023, 4:54 AM Brad Rogers wrote: > > > On Fri, 10 Nov 2023 18:10:12 +0800 > > hlyg wrote: > > > > Hello hlyg, > > > > (sweeping generalisation coming) > > People that upload such images are lazy, arrogant, and suffer > > from a massive sense of entitlement. > > > > Or maybe they are used to the more recently-devised file sharing services > which let you exchange zillions of much larger files [...] Maybe. In any case, the insults seem unnecessary and over the top (this goes to Brad, not to Nicholas). Debian's policy of limiting message size is understandable, given the limits on available resources. After all, it is a free service, and the project hasn't a river of investor capital to burn through, betting on the sale of harvested user's behavioural surplus. Still, everyone has the right to a honest mistake without being called arrogant and other things. Cheers -- t signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: limit on attachment in mail to list
On Fri, Nov 10, 2023, 4:54 AM Brad Rogers wrote:
> On Fri, 10 Nov 2023 18:10:12 +0800
> hlyg wrote:
>
> Hello hlyg,
>
> (sweeping generalisation coming)
> People that upload such images are lazy, arrogant, and suffer
> from a massive sense of entitlement.
>
Or maybe they are used to the more recently-devised file sharing services
which let you exchange zillions of much larger files than this list allows,
but every hour. On any given day I might listen to several hundred gigs of
industrial, goth and EBM music on YouTube and Bandcamp, for free. Not even
0.1% of what was added only that one day just in those 3 styles of music.
It's a different use-case but the thoughts are all the same: Have you ever
used, say, an S3 bucket for your Debian EC2 VM in Amazon cloud?
--
> Regards _ "Valid sig separator is {dash}{dash}{space}"
> / ) "The blindingly obvious is never immediately apparent"
> / _)rad "Is it only me that has a working delete key?"
> If a thought came in your head it would die of loneliness
> I Don't Like You - Stiff Little Fingers
>
Re: limit on attachment in mail to list
On Fri, Nov 10, 2023 at 06:40:45AM +0100, to...@tuxteam.de wrote: > But whose list admins. My suspicion lies with the Outlook ones > (either they don't signal the rejection, or they eat the bounce, > or they had an Azure dropout or whatever). They are known to > behave erratically already. I see a few choices here. 1) Someone ELSE can try to send a 1.2 MB image attachment to this mailing list, PRAY TO $DEITY THAT IT FAILS, and then report to us in detail what happened. 2) Someone could ASK THE DEBIAN LIST ADMINS what the exact criteria are. 3) We could DROP THIS WHOLE FREAKING DISCUSSION. Sending image attachments of any size to a large mailing list is BAD and SHOULD NOT HAVE BEEN DONE TO BEGIN WITH. I, personally, do not want to be the asshole who sends a 1.2 MB image to a mailing list, just in case it somehow gets through, just to test something that doesn't need to be tested.
Re: limit on attachment in mail to list
On Fri, 10 Nov 2023 18:10:12 +0800
hlyg wrote:
Hello hlyg,
>how do you defend debian's vagueness that Large attachments are
>discouraged?
It's not really a matter of vagueness on Debian's part, but politeness
on the sender's part.
It's easy to forget that not everyone has an always on, unlimited
download, internet account. For those people still on dial up, with
limited data allowances, we should avoid attachments. Especially large
ones.
Personally, I'm dismayed that so many lists now allow multiple megabyte
attachments to be sent to their lists. Quite often, I see 80-90kbyte
(and more) images that show an error requester with text that could be
typed out in 60 characters or less. There's no need for that image to
be sent.
(sweeping generalisation coming)
People that upload such images are lazy, arrogant, and suffer
from a massive sense of entitlement.
--
Regards _ "Valid sig separator is {dash}{dash}{space}"
/ ) "The blindingly obvious is never immediately apparent"
/ _)rad "Is it only me that has a working delete key?"
If a thought came in your head it would die of loneliness
I Don't Like You - Stiff Little Fingers
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Re: limit on attachment in mail to list
On 11/10/23 13:26, to...@tuxteam.de wrote: You don't know what happened afterwards. Perhaps your provider threw it away silently. Perhaps the bounce message itself got lost. I see you are @outlook.com. This is an... idiosyncratic provider: they invent strange rules "to protect you" (in reality rather to protect their business model). Perhaps they bounce the bounce message (Microsoft is like that) and then you'll never know your mail got lost. As things stand I trust the Debian mail admins more than the Outlook ones to play by the rules [1]. Much, much more. Cheers [1] one basic rule of mail is that, when you've accepted one you are responsible for it. Thank tomas! my experience with mail providers are limited i won't investigate further (send big mail thru other mail provider) as this isn't big issue for me and my time/energy is limited how do you defend debian's vagueness that Large attachments are discouraged? definition of large might change as network connection and storage device become cheap. this might seem naive as admin face malicious attack. there might be other considerations after all debian list and outlook are free
Re: limit on attachment in mail to list
On Thu, Nov 09, 2023 at 11:40:17AM -0500, Greg Wooledge wrote:
> On Thu, Nov 09, 2023 at 01:47:01PM +, Byung-Hee HWANG wrote:
> > On Thu, Nov 09, 2023 at 02:04:39AM -0500, hlyg wrote:
> > > list doesn't seem to accept my mail, because of big attachment i believe
> > >
> > > what is max size of attachment allowed in list? Thanks!
>
> > This is my guess:
> >
> >
> > 220 bendel.debian.org ESMTP Postfix
> > ehlo penguin
> > 250-bendel.debian.org
> > 250-PIPELINING
> > 250-SIZE 3072
> > 250-STARTTLS
> > 250-ENHANCEDSTATUSCODES
> > 250-8BITMIME
> > 250 CHUNKING
> > quit
> > 221 2.0.0 Bye
> >
> >
> > So 3072 bytes?
>
> That looks like an upper limit on the total message size, not the size
> of a MIME attachment inside the message.
In another message, hlyg said the attachment is 1.2M, so with encoding
and things that's not very unplausible.
My take as far as now is that the message was rejected while the
protocol was "in flight" as above, and outlook.com didn't care to
generate an error message. Or you have to opt-in to an extra service
with them to be able to see them. Or something more preposterous
(Microsoft always tops my dirtiest fantasies).
> Restrictions on the message content (such as attachment size limits)
> would have to be enforced by something that parses the message body.
> SMTP receivers usually don't do that (although they may hand the message
> off to an anti-virus scanner or something which does).
This is standard nowadays. In the bad old days you did that after the
fact and had to generate a bounce message. Since the sender has control
over the address to bounce to, spammers have misused that to use MTAs
as bouncers for their stuff (mail backscatter [1]). So parsing the
message during reception ("connection-stage rejection", see also [1])
has become standard since the early 2000s, latest 2010 AFAIR.
> The OP claimed they never received a bounce, so presumably their message
> was simply dropped into the bit bucket when it failed whatever criteria
> were applied. This is sensible behavior in any kind of post-SMTP
> processing, although it's super frustrating for a legitimate sender who
> now has no idea why their mail disappeared.
Actually, no. This is behaving in non-standard ways, and, as you see
above, it is avoidable.
> So, only the list admins would know the answer.
But whose list admins. My suspicion lies with the Outlook ones
(either they don't signal the rejection, or they eat the bounce,
or they had an Azure dropout or whatever). They are known to
behave erratically already.
Cheers
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Backscatter_(email)
--
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Re: limit on attachment in mail to list
On Fri, Nov 10, 2023 at 08:43:09AM +0800, hlyg wrote: > On 11/9/23 22:13, Marco M. wrote: > > > > > The MX MTA of the debian-users mailing list shouldn't accept an email > > that is too larger and should reject it with a proper 5xx message, so > > you know what happened. > > > problem mail is in Sent folder in Thunderbird(tb), it means that tb has sent > it successfully You don't know what happened afterwards. Perhaps your provider threw it away silently. Perhaps the bounce message itself got lost. I see you are @outlook.com. This is an... idiosyncratic provider: they invent strange rules "to protect you" (in reality rather to protect their business model). Perhaps they bounce the bounce message (Microsoft is like that) and then you'll never know your mail got lost. As things stand I trust the Debian mail admins more than the Outlook ones to play by the rules [1]. Much, much more. Cheers [1] one basic rule of mail is that, when you've accepted one you are responsible for it. -- t signature.asc Description: PGP signature
