RE: Wheezy to Stretch
On Wednesday, February 21, 2018 12:45 PM, I wrote: > I am running Wheezy (v7 = oldoldstable) and intend to replace it with a fresh > install of Stretch (v9 = stable) before Wheezy's support runs out on May > 31st. I will try the default systemd installation and see how I like it. > ... > I know systemd doesn't have inittab. Will the default installation leave me > with a terminal interface whenever I boot? If not, how will I accomplish > that? On Wednesday, February 21, 2018 1:11 PM,Greg Wooledge [wool...@eeg.ccf.org] replied: > The default target of systemd in Debian is "graphical.target", which > means that if you have installed a Display Manager (gdm3, lightdm, > etc.) it will be started at boot time. > > If you don't want that, the other default target you can use is > named "multi-user.target". This one will not run a Display Manager. > > You can check your default target by running "systemctl get-default". > > You can set your default target by running "systemctl set-default foo". That sounds like just what I need to know. Thanks to you and to all of the others who followed up with helpful discussions. From: deloptes [delop...@gmail.com] Sent: Thursday, February 22, 2018 12:35 PM To: debian-user@lists.debian.org Subject: Re: Wheezy to Stretch Roberto C. Sánchez wrote: > Just keep in mind that we all have different experiences and different > reasons for thinking and believing the things that we think and believe. I can only support this (in fact all your writing, but removed most of it to make it easier to read). 12+ Years ago I had difficulties upgrading Debian and started following the release notes. After this it was very easy to do an upgrade, because most of the problems one would face during upgrade were already covered in the release notes. Even in the past few releases on one machine or type of setup it would work and on another it would not and again the release notes were very helpful to find a way out. I would recommend anyone who wants to do an upgrade to follow the release notes and contribute if facing problems. regards
Re: Wheezy to Stretch
Roberto C. Sánchez wrote: > Just keep in mind that we all have different experiences and different > reasons for thinking and believing the things that we think and believe. I can only support this (in fact all your writing, but removed most of it to make it easier to read). 12+ Years ago I had difficulties upgrading Debian and started following the release notes. After this it was very easy to do an upgrade, because most of the problems one would face during upgrade were already covered in the release notes. Even in the past few releases on one machine or type of setup it would work and on another it would not and again the release notes were very helpful to find a way out. I would recommend anyone who wants to do an upgrade to follow the release notes and contribute if facing problems. regards
Re: Wheezy to Stretch
On Wed, Feb 21, 2018 at 11:07:09PM -0800, Jimmy Johnson wrote: > > First off you're quoting something you have read and not from any real > experience. You have aboslutely no evidence to support your statement. I don't think rhkramer has specifically stated whether he is basing his statements on his own experience or what he read. However, others have spoken up in this thread regarding your suggestion and the results are mixed: some have tried and succeeded, while others have tried it and failed. > I can say this, I run 5 laptops and two desktops, one laptop is > reaching it's end of life for kde plasma upstream, it's an older real IBM > Thinkpad, while all the others are different makes and models, AMD and > Intel, none are the same but they are running Wheezy, Jessie, Stretch, > Buster, Sid, 14.04 lts, 16.04 lts, 18.04 lts and I test other systems of > interest too and it keeps me busy, these are not virtual installs, they are > real hardware installs and I fix my problems, that's how I learn, I've been > doing this for more than 20 years, it's called experience, real experience. I am not trying to minimize your experience, but by my count it is likely that at most one or two of the systems you list might have been subjected to a wheezy -> stretch upgrade. Now, you may have actually tried it on all of them and then gone on to install different versions or distros on them, but that is not really the point. Your experience, though lengthy in terms of number of years, is essentially anecdotal. If you approached this discussion saying that you recommend the procedure after having attempted it on 10 server clusters of 100 servers each in varying configurations, then that would be different. Put differently, I have done a fair amount of electrical work on my home over the years. That, however, does not qualify me to read the national eletrical code and respond with "those idiots have no idea what they are saying." Many people, including Debian Developers, other Debian contributors, and regular users have contributed to getting Debian to where it is after more than 25 years. If you have a better approach, please document it, publish it, post it to the appropriate mailing lists, file wishlist bugs against the right packages, get others to test it and reproduce your results, and then get it adopted by the project. That is how consensus is built in a Free Software community. Otherwise, please do others courtesy of being forthright by adding a simple "I've done this one (or twice, or however many times) and it worked for me and my configuration, but YMMV." > No more or less than anybody else here, I don't know the OP or what his > capabilities are and my time is limited, but when I see a post where I can > help I will, what else can you ask from a fellow Linux User. It is definitely a good thing to want to help fellow users. However, please keep in mind that, as several others have pointed out, your recommended course of action has some potential pitfalls. Beyond that, it is even specifically discouraged in the official release notes. That is not because some group of people sat around trying to think how they could waste users' time and ruin their experience with Debian. Rather, it was a concensus reached based on their collective knowledge and experience. If you feel like that should be challenged, I have already outlined the steps. > Just one other > thing, I'm not a joiner and I won't get held back. I'm done discussing this > tread, unless the OP has a question for me. Your like a pack of wolf's ready > to pounce on anything different than what you have read and some of you have > not changed in the 20+ years I've been using Linux, you are bullies and mean > to anyone different than you, > I think you are perceiving personal attacks where none are being made. It is common and natural to want to speak up when one hears bad advice or advice without appropriate warnings being given. For example, if I am talking with someone about how to reach some destination on foot and say something like "and when you come to this busy intersection, just close your eyes and start crossing the street and the cars will stop and let you pass," it would not be at all surprising to hear that challenged. We are taught from a young age that crossing the street is dangerous and that there is a right way to do it. Now, upgrading Debian is not dangerous like crossing the street (unlike upgrading Windows or RedHat). However, for many users, a catastrophic mishap during an upgrade would be very inconvenient. It might prevent them from doing work, school, or some other important task. The other participants in this thread are simply trying to be good netizens and help their fellow user, same as you. Please, continue lending assistance to your fellow users. As far as places to find help, debian-user has always been one of the best places for users of Debian (and even related distros) and has been around longer than most other p
Re: Wheezy to Stretch
On Thursday, February 22, 2018 02:07:09 AM Jimmy Johnson wrote: > On 02/21/2018 07:02 PM, rhkra...@gmail.com wrote: > > On Wednesday, February 21, 2018 03:40:51 PM Jimmy Johnson wrote: > >> On 02/21/2018 10:47 AM, Roberto C. S�nchez wrote: > >>> Note that upgrades skipping a release (e.g., wheezy -> stretch instead > >>> of wheezy -> jessie -> stretch) are not supported. A fresh install > >>> sounds like the better route in this case. > >> > >> I know what I'm talking about and if I can do it anybody can do it, > >> Debian has given us all the tools we need to upgrade any stable release > >> to current stable release or higher for that matter, thank about it. > >> Just start with a simple upgrade first before tackling the other things, > >> it's not rocket science after all. > > > > And what if their system has slightly different hardware or some other > > difference such that your advice doesn't work? (AFAICT, the fact that > > Debian does not support an upgrade skipping a release means that little > > or no testing has been done and there is an indeterminate amount of > > risk.) > > First off you're quoting something you have read and not from any real > experience. I can say this, You are absolutely right about that--they (the developers) wrote that it is not supported. Are you supporting it instead? It's wonderful that it worked well for you, but can you (and will youi) guarantee that it will work well for others? If so, why don't you contact Debian and offer to support such upgrades? > I run 5 laptops and two desktops, one > laptop is reaching it's end of life for kde plasma upstream, it's an > older real IBM Thinkpad, while all the others are different makes and > models, AMD and Intel, none are the same but they are running Wheezy, > Jessie, Stretch, Buster, Sid, 14.04 lts, 16.04 lts, 18.04 lts and I test > other systems of interest too and it keeps me busy, these are not > virtual installs, they are real hardware installs and I fix my problems, > that's how I learn, I've been doing this for more than 20 years, it's > called experience, real experience. My main testing desktop has sid on > sda15 and its probably broken with every release, been moved to more > computers than I care to remember, but I fix it, clean it and keep > going, so far this release, knock on wood and thinks to Debian upstream > repairs have been minimal. Outside of machine language I'm not a coder, > nor do I use machine language any longer. > > > Will you stand behind the upgrade, and fix his system if there is a > > problem? (Site visits are usually not cheap.) > > No more or less than anybody else here, I don't know the OP or what his > capabilities are and my time is limited, but when I see a post where I > can help I will, what else can you ask from a fellow Linux User. Just > one other thing, I'm not a joiner and I won't get held back. I'm done > discussing this tread, unless the OP has a question for me. > Your like a > pack of wolf's I am one person. > ready to pounce on anything different than what you have > read and some of you have not changed in the 20+ years I've been using > Linux, you are bullies and mean to anyone different than you, and I am > different than you period. > > Cheers,
Re: Wheezy to Stretch
On 2018-02-21, Jimmy Johnson wrote: [...] > I know what I'm talking about ... Dude, you're talking to a Debian developer. OP, if you're reading this, I urge you to follow the advice of Roberto and other wiser heads. -- Liam
Re: Wheezy to Stretch
Hello, On Thu, Feb 22, 2018 at 08:17:43AM +0100, deloptes wrote: > Jimmy Johnson wrote: > > I never said that! But I do know what I'm talking about because I do > > what I'm talking about constantly. > > you have said that, because in the official upgrade notes, as Roberto > pointed out, it says you can go only one level up at a time. I too have done quite a few in-place upgrades where I've skipped releases. In an ideal world I will be deploying a virtual machine straight out of config management so it's quicker to just destroy it and deploy a new one than it is to upgrade an existing one. But occasionally I have to work on some VMs where they're neglected snowflakes and the goal is to bring them up to the current stable release. Since I can just snapshot them and revert to that in the event of catastrophe I am sometimes willing to give skipping a release a try. If it goes terribly wrong I can revert the snapshot and do it one release at a time like you're supposed to. Most of the time it's worked fine. I still wouldn't recommend anyone else to try it though, because some of the time it has gone very badly. IIRC there were some releases where you just couldn't skip through them due to kernel and udev changes. It might have been when trying to go from etch to squeeze without visiting lenny first. Then other times there were problems with specific packages. Since it is explicitly not supported to do this, it's no surprise that some packages break when you try it. I'm surprised it works as well as it does as often as it does. It doesn't really save all that much time. I mean, it's only going to be a reboot or two extra per release. Or course the worst case is that something goes wrong but it's not immediately obvious so you call the job done and only discover the issue after a long period of time, maybe then not even being able to prove it was some issue caused by the way you chose to upgrade as opposed to something else you did in the intervening time. I've never had that happen to me, but it seems like a risk that has to be considered. As I mostly only ever try this on virtual machines they are already quite simple things dedicated to a single task, and I think that helps in spotting aberrant behaviour. So yeah it mostly works, but even speaking as someone who does it, it's not something I'd recommend without fully appreciating the dangers. I've had it break badly! Cheers, Andy -- https://bitfolk.com/ -- No-nonsense VPS hosting
Re: Wheezy to Stretch
Jimmy Johnson wrote: > I never said that! But I do know what I'm talking about because I do > what I'm talking about constantly. > you have said that, because in the official upgrade notes, as Roberto pointed out, it says you can go only one level up at a time. Perhaps your setup has nothing special and you have not hit the fan (yet), but it does not mean that what is working for you may work for everybody, while what Debian has recommended works indeed for everybody. > I have a question for you. Why do your emails wind up in my spam box > where I have to fish them out? I have never black-listed you or marked > your email as spam yet you keep going to my spam box, maybe my system > knows something about you that I don't know. I have no influence either on the communication channel, or on your spam filter(s). I really have no idea. It might be your mail server does not like me much regards
Re: Wheezy to Stretch
On 02/21/2018 07:02 PM, rhkra...@gmail.com wrote: On Wednesday, February 21, 2018 03:40:51 PM Jimmy Johnson wrote: On 02/21/2018 10:47 AM, Roberto C. S�nchez wrote: Note that upgrades skipping a release (e.g., wheezy -> stretch instead of wheezy -> jessie -> stretch) are not supported. A fresh install sounds like the better route in this case. I know what I'm talking about and if I can do it anybody can do it, Debian has given us all the tools we need to upgrade any stable release to current stable release or higher for that matter, thank about it. Just start with a simple upgrade first before tackling the other things, it's not rocket science after all. And what if their system has slightly different hardware or some other difference such that your advice doesn't work? (AFAICT, the fact that Debian does not support an upgrade skipping a release means that little or no testing has been done and there is an indeterminate amount of risk.) First off you're quoting something you have read and not from any real experience. I can say this, I run 5 laptops and two desktops, one laptop is reaching it's end of life for kde plasma upstream, it's an older real IBM Thinkpad, while all the others are different makes and models, AMD and Intel, none are the same but they are running Wheezy, Jessie, Stretch, Buster, Sid, 14.04 lts, 16.04 lts, 18.04 lts and I test other systems of interest too and it keeps me busy, these are not virtual installs, they are real hardware installs and I fix my problems, that's how I learn, I've been doing this for more than 20 years, it's called experience, real experience. My main testing desktop has sid on sda15 and its probably broken with every release, been moved to more computers than I care to remember, but I fix it, clean it and keep going, so far this release, knock on wood and thinks to Debian upstream repairs have been minimal. Outside of machine language I'm not a coder, nor do I use machine language any longer. Will you stand behind the upgrade, and fix his system if there is a problem? (Site visits are usually not cheap.) No more or less than anybody else here, I don't know the OP or what his capabilities are and my time is limited, but when I see a post where I can help I will, what else can you ask from a fellow Linux User. Just one other thing, I'm not a joiner and I won't get held back. I'm done discussing this tread, unless the OP has a question for me. Your like a pack of wolf's ready to pounce on anything different than what you have read and some of you have not changed in the 20+ years I've been using Linux, you are bullies and mean to anyone different than you, and I am different than you period. Cheers, -- Jimmy Johnson - The Linux Tester Ubuntu 18.04 LTS - KDE Plasma 5.12.1 - AMD A8-7600 - EXT4 at sda9 Registered Linux User #380263
Re: Wheezy to Stretch
On Wednesday, February 21, 2018 03:40:51 PM Jimmy Johnson wrote: > On 02/21/2018 10:47 AM, Roberto C. Sánchez wrote: > > Note that upgrades skipping a release (e.g., wheezy -> stretch instead > > of wheezy -> jessie -> stretch) are not supported. A fresh install > > sounds like the better route in this case. > > I know what I'm talking about and if I can do it anybody can do it, > Debian has given us all the tools we need to upgrade any stable release > to current stable release or higher for that matter, thank about it. > Just start with a simple upgrade first before tackling the other things, > it's not rocket science after all. And what if their system has slightly different hardware or some other difference such that your advice doesn't work? (AFAICT, the fact that Debian does not support an upgrade skipping a release means that little or no testing has been done and there is an indeterminate amount of risk.) Will you stand behind the upgrade, and fix his system if there is a problem? (Site visits are usually not cheap.)
Re: Wheezy to Stretch
On Wed, 21 Feb 2018 17:45:51 + "Kleene, Steven (kleenesj)" wrote: > I am running Wheezy (v7 = oldoldstable) and intend to replace it with > a fresh install of Stretch (v9 = stable) before Wheezy's support runs > out on May 31st. I will try the default systemd installation and see > how I like it. > > After the installation, I will want to build my system from my > favorite window manager (fvwm). With sysvinit, I would set > initdefault to runlevel 3 in /etc/inittab. In /etc/rc3.d, I would > rename gdm3 so that I would boot into a terminal interface (command > line) instead of Gnome. Then I would quickly install fvwm, call > startx, and happily finish building. Just install a "terminal only" system first. That is no X, no display manager, no window manager, etc. I used the Netinstall ISO. Then install what you want piece by piece. This is what I did with both Wheezy and Stretch. For Stretch, the init conversion -- systemd to sysvinit -- is a simple, as root, 'apt-get install sysvinit-core sysvinit-utils' IIRC. You don't have to "uninstall" systemd. The sysvinit-core install takes care of everything so systemd won't run, but the systemd libraries remain for those apps that have them as dependencies. These are the instructions I used. Just the Required Steps: http://without-systemd.org/wiki/index.php/Debian_Stretch > I know systemd doesn't have inittab. Will the default installation > leave me with a terminal interface whenever I boot? If not, how will > I accomplish that? With both my systems, I boot directly to a terminal by default which was what I wanted. Didn't have to do anything special. > I also thought I had read about some problem with window > authentication in Stretch, but I can't find any such posts now. I've never had any problems, but I use Openbox instead of fvwm. B
Re: Wheezy to Stretch
On 02/21/2018 02:10 PM, Karol Augustin wrote: On 2018-02-21 21:42, Jimmy Johnson wrote: On 02/21/2018 01:31 PM, deloptes wrote: Jimmy Johnson wrote: For all the "Na" Sayers here, nothing lost except for sometime and something to gan the system you want and if you can't make it work format and do a new system, but remember there is no "sysvinit" in Stretch. OK, I have a question: Why do you think you are smarter than all Debian developers? I never said that! But I do know what I'm talking about because I do what I'm talking about constantly. I have a question for you. Why do your emails wind up in my spam box where I have to fish them out? I have never black-listed you or marked your email as spam yet you keep going to my spam box, maybe my system knows something about you that I don't know. Its because Deloptes is using an e-mail to news gateway with his gmail address. As you are also using gmail it is marked as spam/phishing as DMARC fails because the mail is sent using third party servers to reach Debian mailing list instead of Google's. I'm using my gmail account's smtp.gmail server. But thanks. Even though gmail DMARC policy is "none" i think they mark messages without DKIM from gmail domain as spam to protect themselves. It might be hard to fix as even if you repeatedly mark Deloptes' emails as not spam it probably won't help. You can try adding him to contacts if you desire. If you are using Android you will also have his e-mail address on your phone for quick access anytime you might need to reach him... k. Cheers, -- Jimmy Johnson Debian Wheezy - KDE 4.8.4 - Intel i7-3540M - EXT4 at sda10 Registered Linux User #380263
Re: Wheezy to Stretch
On 02/21/2018 02:18 PM, Sven Joachim wrote: On 2018-02-21 16:49 -0500, Greg Wooledge wrote: On Wed, Feb 21, 2018 at 10:39:15PM +0100, Sven Joachim wrote: Speaking of sysvinit, one problem with a direct upgrade from Wheezy to Stretch is that there is no _package_ named sysvinit in Stretch, so you will be left with the old sysvinit from Wheezy and have to do a manual upgrade, e.g. like this: Moot argument. You don't *DO* a direct upgrade from wheezy to stretch in the first place. You go wheezy->jessie, and then jessie->stretch. Certainly. I only mentioned this because Jimmy had suggested the reckless method of directly upgrading from Wheezy to Stretch, and I was curious how badly it would break. It's sicking the people who talk with authority about things they have never done and I don't care if they read something somewhere, doing is knowing. Cheers, -- Jimmy Johnson Debian Wheezy - KDE 4.8.4 - Intel i7-3540M - EXT4 at sda10 Registered Linux User #380263
Re: Wheezy to Stretch
On 2018-02-21 16:49 -0500, Greg Wooledge wrote: > On Wed, Feb 21, 2018 at 10:39:15PM +0100, Sven Joachim wrote: >> Speaking of sysvinit, one problem with a direct upgrade from Wheezy to >> Stretch is that there is no _package_ named sysvinit in Stretch, so you >> will be left with the old sysvinit from Wheezy and have to do a manual >> upgrade, e.g. like this: > > Moot argument. You don't *DO* a direct upgrade from wheezy to stretch > in the first place. You go wheezy->jessie, and then jessie->stretch. Certainly. I only mentioned this because Jimmy had suggested the reckless method of directly upgrading from Wheezy to Stretch, and I was curious how badly it would break. Cheers, Sven
Re: Wheezy to Stretch
On 2018-02-21 21:42, Jimmy Johnson wrote: > On 02/21/2018 01:31 PM, deloptes wrote: >> Jimmy Johnson wrote: >> >>> For all the "Na" Sayers here, nothing lost except for sometime and >>> something to gan the system you want and if you can't make it work >>> format and do a new system, but remember there is no "sysvinit" in >>> Stretch. >> >> OK, I have a question: >> Why do you think you are smarter than all Debian developers? > > I never said that! But I do know what I'm talking about because I do > what I'm talking about constantly. > > I have a question for you. Why do your emails wind up in my spam box > where I have to fish them out? I have never black-listed you or marked > your email as spam yet you keep going to my spam box, maybe my system > knows something about you that I don't know. Its because Deloptes is using an e-mail to news gateway with his gmail address. As you are also using gmail it is marked as spam/phishing as DMARC fails because the mail is sent using third party servers to reach Debian mailing list instead of Google's. Even though gmail DMARC policy is "none" i think they mark messages without DKIM from gmail domain as spam to protect themselves. It might be hard to fix as even if you repeatedly mark Deloptes' emails as not spam it probably won't help. You can try adding him to contacts if you desire. If you are using Android you will also have his e-mail address on your phone for quick access anytime you might need to reach him... k. -- Karol Augustin ka...@augustin.pl http://karolaugustin.pl/ +353 85 775 5312
Re: Wheezy to Stretch
On Wed, Feb 21, 2018 at 10:39:15PM +0100, Sven Joachim wrote: > Speaking of sysvinit, one problem with a direct upgrade from Wheezy to > Stretch is that there is no _package_ named sysvinit in Stretch, so you > will be left with the old sysvinit from Wheezy and have to do a manual > upgrade, e.g. like this: Moot argument. You don't *DO* a direct upgrade from wheezy to stretch in the first place. You go wheezy->jessie, and then jessie->stretch.
Re: Wheezy to Stretch
On 02/21/2018 01:31 PM, deloptes wrote: Jimmy Johnson wrote: For all the "Na" Sayers here, nothing lost except for sometime and something to gan the system you want and if you can't make it work format and do a new system, but remember there is no "sysvinit" in Stretch. OK, I have a question: Why do you think you are smarter than all Debian developers? I never said that! But I do know what I'm talking about because I do what I'm talking about constantly. I have a question for you. Why do your emails wind up in my spam box where I have to fish them out? I have never black-listed you or marked your email as spam yet you keep going to my spam box, maybe my system knows something about you that I don't know. Cheers, -- Jimmy Johnson - The Linux Tester Ubuntu 18.04 LTS - KDE Plasma 5.12.1 - AMD A8-7600 - EXT4 at sda9 Registered Linux User #380263
Re: Wheezy to Stretch
On 2018-02-21 16:01 -0500, Greg Wooledge wrote: > On Wed, Feb 21, 2018 at 12:58:11PM -0800, Jimmy Johnson wrote: >> For all the "Na" Sayers here, nothing lost except for sometime and something >> to gan the system you want and if you can't make it work format and do a new >> system, but remember there is no "sysvinit" in Stretch. > > There is. It's just not the default. Speaking of sysvinit, one problem with a direct upgrade from Wheezy to Stretch is that there is no _package_ named sysvinit in Stretch, so you will be left with the old sysvinit from Wheezy and have to do a manual upgrade, e.g. like this: # apt-get install sysvinit-core # dpkg --purge --force-remove-essential sysvinit Other than that, on a fairly minimal chroot this worked surprisingly well. However, on a system with ~2000 packages I would rather not try it. There are certainly many other cases where you will be left with old packages without an obvious upgrade path, obsolete conffiles, directories which should be symlinks or vice versa and other issues which are not immediately obvious but may bite you many months later. Cheers, Sven
Re: Wheezy to Stretch
On 02/21/2018 01:01 PM, Greg Wooledge wrote: On Wed, Feb 21, 2018 at 12:58:11PM -0800, Jimmy Johnson wrote: For all the "Na" Sayers here, nothing lost except for sometime and something to gan the system you want and if you can't make it work format and do a new system, but remember there is no "sysvinit" in Stretch. There is. It's just not the default.\ I had to boot stretch to double check my memory and there is no "sysvinit", you do have sysv-rc, sysv-rc-conf, sysvinit-core and sysvinit-utils and yes I do know that you can run a sysvinit system with those files or so it seems. I'll let the OP choose what he wants to do. Cheers, -- Jimmy Johnson - "The Linux Tester" Ubuntu 18.04 LTS - KDE Plasma 5.12.1 - AMD A8-7600 - EXT4 at sda9 Registered Linux User #380263
Re: Wheezy to Stretch
Jimmy Johnson wrote: > For all the "Na" Sayers here, nothing lost except for sometime and > something to gan the system you want and if you can't make it work > format and do a new system, but remember there is no "sysvinit" in > Stretch. OK, I have a question: Why do you think you are smarter than all Debian developers?
Re: Wheezy to Stretch
On Wed, Feb 21, 2018 at 12:58:11PM -0800, Jimmy Johnson wrote: > For all the "Na" Sayers here, nothing lost except for sometime and something > to gan the system you want and if you can't make it work format and do a new > system, but remember there is no "sysvinit" in Stretch. There is. It's just not the default.
Re: Wheezy to Stretch
On 02/21/2018 10:39 AM, Jimmy Johnson wrote: On 02/21/2018 09:45 AM, Kleene, Steven (kleenesj) wrote: I am running Wheezy (v7 = oldoldstable) and intend to replace it with a fresh install of Stretch (v9 = stable) before Wheezy's support runs out on May 31st. I will try the default systemd installation and see how I like it. Okay, but I suggest instead you keep your wheezy system and your wheezy sources and do a upgrade using package upgrade-system, it will clean your system and then add the stretch sources including backports and run apt update & apt-upgrade and then run upgrade-system until your system is upgraded and clean, careful that sysvinit is not removed cause that package is not in stretch. You can also use apt dist-upgrade and deborphan. After the installation, I will want to build my system from my favorite window manager (fvwm). With sysvinit, I would set initdefault to runlevel 3 in /etc/inittab. In /etc/rc3.d, I would rename gdm3 so that I would boot into a terminal interface (command line) instead of Gnome. Then I would quickly install fvwm, call startx, and happily finish building. I know systemd doesn't have inittab. Will the default installation leave me with a terminal interface whenever I boot? If not, how will I accomplish that? I also thought I had read about some problem with window authentication in Stretch, but I can't find any such posts now. I don't know of any current problems in stretch. For all the "Na" Sayers here, nothing lost except for sometime and something to gan the system you want and if you can't make it work format and do a new system, but remember there is no "sysvinit" in Stretch. Cheers, -- Jimmy Johnson - "The Linux-Tester" Ubuntu 18.04 LTS - KDE Plasma 5.12.1 - AMD A8-7600 - EXT4 at sda9 Registered Linux User #380263
Re: Wheezy to Stretch
On Wed, Feb 21, 2018 at 12:40:51PM -0800, Jimmy Johnson wrote: > I know what I'm talking about Same here. > and if I can do it anybody can do it, There is a big difference between *can* and *should*. > Debian > has given us all the tools we need to upgrade any stable release to current > stable release or higher for that matter, thank about it. >From the release notes [0]: Direct upgrades from Debian releases older than 8 (jessie) are not supported. Please follow the instructions in the Release Notes for Debian 8 to upgrade to 8 first. > Just start with a > simple upgrade first before tackling the other things, it's not rocket > science after all. > Correct. It is not rocket science. However, the suggestion you made is far more likely to encounter problems, perhaps even very difficult to recover problems, than the supported and *tested* upgrade path. There are so many packages in Debian that you have no way of being certain that any given upgrade will work without issues. I have even done in place 32-bit -> 64-bit migrations. However, I would not recommend that anyone try that without understanding the potential risks. Your recommendation had a conspicuous lack of warnings concerning the potential provblems associated with it. Regards, -Roberto [0] https://www.debian.org/releases/stable/amd64/release-notes/ch-upgrading.en.html#system-status -- Roberto C. Sánchez
Re: Wheezy to Stretch
On 02/21/2018 09:45 AM, Kleene, Steven (kleenesj) wrote: I am running Wheezy (v7 = oldoldstable) and intend to replace it with a fresh install of Stretch (v9 = stable) before Wheezy's support runs out on May 31st. I will try the default systemd installation and see how I like it. Okay, but I suggest instead you keep your wheezy system and your wheezy sources and do a upgrade using package upgrade-system, it will clean your system and then add the stretch sources including backports and run apt update & apt-upgrade and then run upgrade-system until your system is upgraded and clean, careful that sysvinit is not removed cause that package is not in stretch. You can also use apt dist-upgrade and deborphan. After the installation, I will want to build my system from my favorite window manager (fvwm). With sysvinit, I would set initdefault to runlevel 3 in /etc/inittab. In /etc/rc3.d, I would rename gdm3 so that I would boot into a terminal interface (command line) instead of Gnome. Then I would quickly install fvwm, call startx, and happily finish building. I know systemd doesn't have inittab. Will the default installation leave me with a terminal interface whenever I boot? If not, how will I accomplish that? I also thought I had read about some problem with window authentication in Stretch, but I can't find any such posts now. I don't know of any current problems in stretch. Thanks. Cheers, -- Jimmy Johnson Debian Buster - KDE Plasma 5.12.0 - AMD A8-7600 - EXT4 at sda7 Registered Linux User #380263
Re: Wheezy to Stretch
On 2/21/2018 7:47 PM, Roberto C. Sánchez wrote: On Wed, Feb 21, 2018 at 10:39:54AM -0800, Jimmy Johnson wrote: On 02/21/2018 09:45 AM, Kleene, Steven (kleenesj) wrote: I am running Wheezy (v7 = oldoldstable) and intend to replace it with a fresh install of Stretch (v9 = stable) before Wheezy's support runs out on May 31st. I will try the default systemd installation and see how I like it. Okay, but I suggest instead you keep your wheezy system and your wheezy sources and do a upgrade using package upgrade-system, it will clean your system and then add the stretch sources including backports and run apt update & apt-upgrade and then run upgrade-system until your system is upgraded and clean, careful that sysvinit is not removed cause that package is not in stretch. You can also use apt dist-upgrade and deborphan. Note that upgrades skipping a release (e.g., wheezy -> stretch instead of wheezy -> jessie -> stretch) are not supported. A fresh install sounds like the better route in this case. Also, adding backports sources for the target version during an upgrade is a terrible idea. Packages in backports have not received upgrade testing, so who knows what sort of a mess it could create. For Steven, the best thing is to read the release notes and/or installation manual and follow the instructions found there. I agree with Roberto for both advices. -- John Doe
Re: Wheezy to Stretch
On Wed, Feb 21, 2018 at 08:12:56PM +0100, deloptes wrote: > Roberto C. Sánchez wrote: > > > Note that upgrades skipping a release (e.g., wheezy -> stretch instead > > of wheezy -> jessie -> stretch) are not supported. A fresh install > > sounds like the better route in this case. > > Roberto, OP said he want to replace wheezy with fresh install. Just FYI. > Right. Then Jimmy made the rather unwise suggestion of upgrading directly from wheezy to stretch and than also something about adding backports source prior to upgrading. I was simply reinforcing the OP's original position that a fresh install is the right way to go. Regards, -Roberto -- Roberto C. Sánchez
Re: Wheezy to Stretch
On 02/21/2018 10:47 AM, Roberto C. Sánchez wrote: On Wed, Feb 21, 2018 at 10:39:54AM -0800, Jimmy Johnson wrote: On 02/21/2018 09:45 AM, Kleene, Steven (kleenesj) wrote: I am running Wheezy (v7 = oldoldstable) and intend to replace it with a fresh install of Stretch (v9 = stable) before Wheezy's support runs out on May 31st. I will try the default systemd installation and see how I like it. Okay, but I suggest instead you keep your wheezy system and your wheezy sources and do a upgrade using package upgrade-system, it will clean your system and then add the stretch sources including backports and run apt update & apt-upgrade and then run upgrade-system until your system is upgraded and clean, careful that sysvinit is not removed cause that package is not in stretch. You can also use apt dist-upgrade and deborphan. Note that upgrades skipping a release (e.g., wheezy -> stretch instead of wheezy -> jessie -> stretch) are not supported. A fresh install sounds like the better route in this case. Also, adding backports sources for the target version during an upgrade is a terrible idea. Packages in backports have not received upgrade testing, so who knows what sort of a mess it could create. For Steven, the best thing is to read the release notes and/or installation manual and follow the instructions found there. Regards, -Roberto I know what I'm talking about and if I can do it anybody can do it, Debian has given us all the tools we need to upgrade any stable release to current stable release or higher for that matter, thank about it. Just start with a simple upgrade first before tackling the other things, it's not rocket science after all. Cheers, -- Jimmy Johnson Ubuntu 18.04 LTS - KDE Plasma 5.12.1 - AMD A8-7600 - EXT4 at sda9 Registered Linux User #380263
Re: Wheezy to Stretch
Roberto C. Sánchez wrote: > Right. Then Jimmy made the rather unwise suggestion of upgrading > directly from wheezy to stretch and than also something about adding > backports source prior to upgrading. > > I was simply reinforcing the OP's original position that a fresh install > is the right way to go. Sorry and thanks for clarification.
Re: Wheezy to Stretch
Roberto C. Sánchez wrote: > Note that upgrades skipping a release (e.g., wheezy -> stretch instead > of wheezy -> jessie -> stretch) are not supported. A fresh install > sounds like the better route in this case. Roberto, OP said he want to replace wheezy with fresh install. Just FYI. regards
Re: Wheezy to Stretch
On Wed, Feb 21, 2018 at 10:39:54AM -0800, Jimmy Johnson wrote: > On 02/21/2018 09:45 AM, Kleene, Steven (kleenesj) wrote: > > I am running Wheezy (v7 = oldoldstable) and intend to replace it with a > > fresh > > install of Stretch (v9 = stable) before Wheezy's support runs out on May > > 31st. I will try the default systemd installation and see how I like it. > > Okay, but I suggest instead you keep your wheezy system and your wheezy > sources and do a upgrade using package upgrade-system, it will clean your > system and then add the stretch sources including backports and run apt > update & apt-upgrade and then run upgrade-system until your system is > upgraded and clean, careful that sysvinit is not removed cause that package > is not in stretch. You can also use apt dist-upgrade and deborphan. > Note that upgrades skipping a release (e.g., wheezy -> stretch instead of wheezy -> jessie -> stretch) are not supported. A fresh install sounds like the better route in this case. Also, adding backports sources for the target version during an upgrade is a terrible idea. Packages in backports have not received upgrade testing, so who knows what sort of a mess it could create. For Steven, the best thing is to read the release notes and/or installation manual and follow the instructions found there. Regards, -Roberto -- Roberto C. Sánchez
Re: Wheezy to Stretch
Greg Wooledge composed on 2018-02-21 13:11 (UTC-0500): > If you simply want to boot *once* into multi-user.target without > changing the default target, you can edit the kernel command line > and add the option "systemd.unit=multi-user.target". > Which is a whole lot more typing than adding the option "2" used to > be, but is otherwise almost 100% equivalent. 5 works to override multi-user.target. 3 works to override graphical.target. Systemd aliases the old runlevels to its targets, so that 'init [S,1-6]' and 'telinit [S,1-6]' can more or less work like they used to with SysV. With RedHat's rpm runlevels, 3 nominally meant everything except GUI, with 2 nominally meaning multiuser without networking, but a lot of rpm distros included basic networking in 2 and 3 was distinguished to include most services that depend on functioning network. -- "Wisdom is supreme; therefore get wisdom. Whatever else you get, get wisdom." Proverbs 4:7 (New Living Translation) Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/
Re: Wheezy to Stretch
On Wed, Feb 21, 2018 at 05:45:51PM +, Kleene, Steven (kleenesj) wrote: > With sysvinit, I would set initdefault to runlevel 3 > in /etc/inittab. In /etc/rc3.d, I would rename gdm3 so that I would boot > into a terminal interface (command line) instead of Gnome. Then I would > quickly install fvwm, call startx, and happily finish building. > > I know systemd doesn't have inittab. Will the default installation leave me > with a terminal interface whenever I boot? If not, how will I accomplish > that? Systemd does not have runlevels, but it is being developed primarily by and for Red Hat systems, and therefore it *mimics* the Red Hat runlevels remarkably. Instead of runlevels, systemd has a "default target", which is the set of services that should be brought up at boot time. Which is basically a runlevel by a different name. The default target of systemd in Debian is "graphical.target", which means that if you have installed a Display Manager (gdm3, lightdm, etc.) it will be started at boot time. If you don't want that, the other default target you can use is named "multi-user.target". This one will not run a Display Manager. You can check your default target by running "systemctl get-default". You can set your default target by running "systemctl set-default foo". If you simply want to boot *once* into multi-user.target without changing the default target, you can edit the kernel command line and add the option "systemd.unit=multi-user.target". Which is a whole lot more typing than adding the option "2" used to be, but is otherwise almost 100% equivalent. Another way you can achieve the goal of "not booting into a Display Manager" is to remove your Display Manager package. You can always add it back later.
Re: Wheezy to Stretch upgrade failure
On 06/24/2017 02:04 AM, Andrew wrote: Ive tried to update a non GUI system from Wheezy to Stretch and its gone horribly wrong. Theres so many errors I cant even begin to fathom out what has gone wrong and I think the only solution is going to be a clean install. New infrastructure, new apt. Where you left off run #apt-get -f install and then #dpkg --configure -a Do that a couple of times and then you can start using the new apt, as in #apt update #apt upgrade and then install package 'upgrade-system' and run it and use -f install when you have to and dpkg --configure -a until done. Would I have been wise to upgrade it to Jessie first? Easier for sure, but you would still use the same steps as above. Regards Andrew Cheers! -- Jimmy Johnson Debian Stretch - KDE Plasma 5.8.6 - Intel G3220 - EXT4 at sda11 Registered Linux User #380263
Re: Wheezy to Stretch upgrade failure
Le 06/24/17 à 16:16, deloptes a écrit : > Henrique de Moraes Holschuh wrote: > >> Which kinda means it would have been faster for you to do a full backup >> (which you should always do before major upgrades, anyway) and install >> stretch from scratch, I suppose. > > upgrade to jessie and then to stretch would have worked if OP would have > read the upgrade/installation notes > > regards > Yes but depending on what is installed it can lead to have to adapt some configurations twice, to get a working jessie before upgrading to stretch then a working stretch. In that case installing from scratch may be an option to do it only once.
Re: Wheezy to Stretch upgrade failure
Henrique de Moraes Holschuh wrote: > Which kinda means it would have been faster for you to do a full backup > (which you should always do before major upgrades, anyway) and install > stretch from scratch, I suppose. upgrade to jessie and then to stretch would have worked if OP would have read the upgrade/installation notes regards
Re: Wheezy to Stretch upgrade failure
On Sat, 24 Jun 2017, Andrew wrote: > Ive tried to update a non GUI system from Wheezy to Stretch and its gone > horribly wrong. ... > Would I have been wise to upgrade it to Jessie first? Yes. The safest procedure is: 1. Update to the latest point-release of the version you have installed. 2. Read the release notes of the *next* Debian stable version 2a. update to the latest point-release of the next debian stable version, using the method described in the release notes. 3. clean up 4. repeat 2, 2a, 3 until you arrive at the latest Debian stable version. Which kinda means it would have been faster for you to do a full backup (which you should always do before major upgrades, anyway) and install stretch from scratch, I suppose. -- Henrique Holschuh
Re: Wheezy to Stretch upgrade failure
On Sat, Jun 24, 2017 at 11:10:58AM +0200, Erwan David wrote: > Le 06/24/17 à 11:04, Andrew a écrit : > > Ive tried to update a non GUI system from Wheezy to Stretch and its gone > > horribly wrong. > > > > Theres so many errors I cant even begin to fathom out what has gone > > wrong and I think the only solution is going to be a clean install. > > > > Would I have been wise to upgrade it to Jessie first? > Upgrade from version N to version N+2 is always prone to errors. The > only tested path is from N to N+1, thus it would have been wise to first > upgrade into Jessie. Or, depending on your settings, configurations, > services your computer provides even do a full install of stretch. You can also segment an upgrade into two, more digestible pieces. apt-get upgrade apt-get dist-upgrade -- Joel Roth
Re: Wheezy to Stretch upgrade failure
Le 06/24/17 à 11:04, Andrew a écrit : > Ive tried to update a non GUI system from Wheezy to Stretch and its gone > horribly wrong. > > Theres so many errors I cant even begin to fathom out what has gone > wrong and I think the only solution is going to be a clean install. > > Would I have been wise to upgrade it to Jessie first? > > Regards > > Andrew > Upgrade from version N to version N+2 is always prone to errors. The only tested path is from N to N+1, thus it would have been wise to first upgrade into Jessie. Or, depending on your settings, configurations, services your computer provides even do a full install of stretch.
