Re: Micro-report: using Stable without systemd

[Morel Bérenger]

Le Wed, 17 Oct 2018 13:02:23 -0400,
Gene Heskett  a écrit :

> On Wednesday 17 October 2018 05:38:38 Morel Bérenger wrote:
> 
> > Le Wed, 17 Oct 2018 04:40:49 -0400,
> >
> > Gene Heskett  a écrit :  
> > > On Wednesday 17 October 2018 04:00:37 Morel Bérenger wrote:  
> > > > Le Tue, 16 Oct 2018 17:53:37 -0400,
> > > >
> > > > Gene Heskett  a écrit :  
> > > > > On Tuesday 16 October 2018 13:11:45 Greg Wooledge wrote:  
> > > > > > On Tue, Oct 16, 2018 at 12:43:40PM -0400, Gene Heskett
> > > > > > wrote:  
> > > > > > > #1 is ssh -Y has been killed from jessie on. No excuse for
> > > > > > > doing it and bug filing is ignored.  
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I don't know what you mean by this.  I just performed the
> > > > > > following experiment on my stretch workstation (wooledg), in
> > > > > > communications with a stretch server (arc3) elsewhere on our
> > > > > > network.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > 1) Already logged into wooledg, I opened a new urxvt window.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > 2) In this window, I typed: ssh -Y arc3
> > > > > >
> > > > > > 3) After authenticating to arc3 with a password, at the
> > > > > > shell prompt, I typed: xterm
> > > > > >
> > > > > > 4) After a moment, a new xterm window appeared on my
> > > > > > display.  
> > > > >
> > > > > Thats expected. Now enter synaptic-pkexec. It should ask you,
> > > > > if you are user 1000, for a passwd and given it, it will run.
> > > > > But after wheezy, its not possible. LinuxCNC's graphics needs
> > > > > are modest, and it will run, as the user. But its not root.
> > > > > And root is denied regardless of how you go about obtaining
> > > > > root permissions.  
> > > >
> > > > Also, I wonder if you tried to do that through, for example
> > > > Xephyr? Might workaround the issue you have?  
> > >
> > > Well I was just reminded that gksudo works. Now what the heck is
> > > Xephyr? Google says its x on x, whatever that means. I'll try to
> > > remember that and play with it if its available for wheezy &
> > > later.
> > >
> > > Thanks Morel Bérenger.  
> >
> > The ncurses mode of aptitude says Xephyr is a X server that can be
> > executed inside another X server, more or less like Xnest (or xming,
> > for people like me that had to work on a windows station but wanted
> > to keep a nice wm embedded on personal hardware ;)).
> >
> > I can not really explain how this works, but in short you could
> > consider a remote system providing the performances stuff (hard disk
> > space, strong CPU, tons or RAM...) and opening the X session on
> > local systems.
> > I think it might fix your problem because basically, su-programs
> > (probably PAM modules, in fact) do some security related checks to
> > avoid passwords to be sniffed by a client on another computer: which
> > is what I would expect a ssh -Y gksudo do.
> >
> > If my explanation is not clear (and I'm certain of it), it's
> > because I don't really master that side of systems, sorry for
> > that :)  
> 
> You at least, dug deep enough to see that pam was probably the guilty 
> party,

I have not dug, not even a minute. It's just that I've always played a
lot with my debians, and I started really using it when Lenny was
testing.
Playing with apt-pining, agetty alternatives and alike tends to teach
some stuff, especially when one starts to have some years of background
to compare.
You know, the month I started really using something different from
windows, I stopped spitting on that system, because I understood that
(most of) the crashes were not windows' fault but coders doing their
job the wrong way.
It's so easy to hit the 1st thing one can see.

> same conclusion I reached. Unforch, removing pam also pretty
> much nukes the whole system.

Building a PAM-less distro based on Debian would be quite the
challenge, for sure.
I intend to try, some day, just for fun (PAM might also be part of the
reason Xorg have to be started by root, on sysV, and since systemd
comes into the game, this might have allowed them this improvement. It
seems the *BSD guys are taking a very different approach, I must learn
how they do that, because loading as root a shared library just to
read 2 files (or ask a server) seems bad for both performance and
security to me).

But I do not think it's the smartest solution to fix an actual,
real-life problem.
PAM is basically a set of dynamic libraries, and in theory (never
played with it, the whole model as I know it seems disgusting to me) you
can configure it to use a "module" or another one to identify a user or
an application.
Maybe this would be easier than hacking the whole distro to remove PAM.

Re: Micro-report: using Stable without systemd

[David Wright]

On Wed 17 Oct 2018 at 08:32:30 (+0100), mick crane wrote:
> On 2018-10-17 05:33, David Wright wrote:
> > On Wed 17 Oct 2018 at 04:35:36 (+0100), mick crane wrote:
> > > On 2018-10-16 22:53, Gene Heskett wrote:
> > > > On Tuesday 16 October 2018 13:11:45 Greg Wooledge wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > On Tue, Oct 16, 2018 at 12:43:40PM -0400, Gene Heskett wrote:
> > > > > > #1 is ssh -Y has been killed from jessie on. No excuse for doing it
> > > > > > and bug filing is ignored.
> > > > >
> > > > > I don't know what you mean by this.  I just performed the following
> > > > > experiment on my stretch workstation (wooledg), in communications with
> > > > > a stretch server (arc3) elsewhere on our network.
> > > > >
> > > > > 1) Already logged into wooledg, I opened a new urxvt window.
> > > > >
> > > > > 2) In this window, I typed: ssh -Y arc3
> > > > >
> > > > > 3) After authenticating to arc3 with a password, at the shell prompt,
> > > > > I typed: xterm
> > > > >
> > > > > 4) After a moment, a new xterm window appeared on my display.
> > > >
> > > > Thats expected. Now enter synaptic-pkexec. It should ask you, if
> > > > you are
> > > > user 1000, for a passwd and given it, it will run. But after
> > > > wheezy, its
> > > > not possible. LinuxCNC's graphics needs are modest, and it will run, as
> > > > the user. But its not root.
> > > 
> > > seems correct you can't use X over ssh as root.
> > > I don't know why but always seemed wrong running X as root.
> > 
> > To be fair, I don't think Gene is trying to run X as root (which would
> > an X *server*), but just a client. Yes, I agree that running X as root
> > would be horrible, but I have no difficulty in running an X client as
> > root, either on the same machine or having logged in as root (by key)
> > to another machine. But I would be very choosy about which clients I'd
> > be prepared to run.
> 
> meant clients. I'm a bit uncertain how exporting X works.
> Had it working with keys as user and left it alone.
> Assume ssh on remote sends X requests to machine you are sat at.
> Changed a bit sshd_config on remote to check this but guess that might
> be sshd_config on sat at machine and ssh_config on remote ( or both, I
> dunno ).
> will have a fiddle but assume it's not meant to work.

As Greg wrote above, I'd sit at the machine (A) running the X server
and open an xterm. I'd then obtain root (I use su). Now I'd ssh -X
into root on the other machine (B) by means of keys. IIRC at this
point A would write a /root/.Xauthority file on B if required. Now I'd
type, say, xeyes on B (in the xterm) and expect to see the eyes pop up
on the Xserver screen at A.

Using sudo at any stage might complicate this, and a client could also
decide whether to run or not depending on certain security criteria.
I can't help with that as I'm not familiar with Gene's client, and
also I use sudo only to perform various "potted" tasks like shutdown
(and then only on the same machine as the user).

Cheers,
David.

Re: Micro-report: using Stable without systemd

[Gene Heskett]

On Wednesday 17 October 2018 05:38:38 Morel Bérenger wrote:

> Le Wed, 17 Oct 2018 04:40:49 -0400,
>
> Gene Heskett  a écrit :
> > On Wednesday 17 October 2018 04:00:37 Morel Bérenger wrote:
> > > Le Tue, 16 Oct 2018 17:53:37 -0400,
> > >
> > > Gene Heskett  a écrit :
> > > > On Tuesday 16 October 2018 13:11:45 Greg Wooledge wrote:
> > > > > On Tue, Oct 16, 2018 at 12:43:40PM -0400, Gene Heskett wrote:
> > > > > > #1 is ssh -Y has been killed from jessie on. No excuse for
> > > > > > doing it and bug filing is ignored.
> > > > >
> > > > > I don't know what you mean by this.  I just performed the
> > > > > following experiment on my stretch workstation (wooledg), in
> > > > > communications with a stretch server (arc3) elsewhere on our
> > > > > network.
> > > > >
> > > > > 1) Already logged into wooledg, I opened a new urxvt window.
> > > > >
> > > > > 2) In this window, I typed: ssh -Y arc3
> > > > >
> > > > > 3) After authenticating to arc3 with a password, at the shell
> > > > > prompt, I typed: xterm
> > > > >
> > > > > 4) After a moment, a new xterm window appeared on my display.
> > > >
> > > > Thats expected. Now enter synaptic-pkexec. It should ask you, if
> > > > you are user 1000, for a passwd and given it, it will run. But
> > > > after wheezy, its not possible. LinuxCNC's graphics needs are
> > > > modest, and it will run, as the user. But its not root. And root
> > > > is denied regardless of how you go about obtaining root
> > > > permissions.
> > >
> > > Also, I wonder if you tried to do that through, for example
> > > Xephyr? Might workaround the issue you have?
> >
> > Well I was just reminded that gksudo works. Now what the heck is
> > Xephyr? Google says its x on x, whatever that means. I'll try to
> > remember that and play with it if its available for wheezy & later.
> >
> > Thanks Morel Bérenger.
>
> The ncurses mode of aptitude says Xephyr is a X server that can be
> executed inside another X server, more or less like Xnest (or xming,
> for people like me that had to work on a windows station but wanted to
> keep a nice wm embedded on personal hardware ;)).
>
> I can not really explain how this works, but in short you could
> consider a remote system providing the performances stuff (hard disk
> space, strong CPU, tons or RAM...) and opening the X session on local
> systems.
> I think it might fix your problem because basically, su-programs
> (probably PAM modules, in fact) do some security related checks to
> avoid passwords to be sniffed by a client on another computer: which
> is what I would expect a ssh -Y gksudo do.
>
> If my explanation is not clear (and I'm certain of it), it's because I
> don't really master that side of systems, sorry for that :)

You at least, dug deep enough to see that pam was probably the guilty 
party, same conclusion I reached. Unforch, removing pam also pretty much 
nukes the whole system.

And I'm not seeing well enough to expound at length, cataract operation 
this morning.















-- 
Cheers, Gene Heskett
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page 

Re: Micro-report: using Stable without systemd

[Richard Owlett]

On 10/17/2018 07:32 AM, Greg Wooledge wrote:

On Tue, Oct 16, 2018 at 05:28:04PM -0400, Gene Heskett wrote:

The point is that no one from the systemd camp has, to my knowledge,
posted a list of things it can do better than sysvinit. Point out
sysvinit's warts, and what systemd does to excise the ugly stuff.


I'm not really in "the systemd camp", but I'm definitely in the group
of people who want to get away from sysv-rc because of its tremendous
flaws.

In addition to the responses you've already received, here's one in
the form of a Frequently Given Answer.  I consider it a good starting
point if you're already an experienced sysadmin.

http://jdebp.eu./FGA/system-5-rc-problems.html

That said, it might not be the best starting point for novices who are
wondering what all this stuff even *means*.



Speaking as a novice, it may not be the ideal starting point. But it is 
well written and without vitriol. A novice may not understand important 
details, but he should come away with an idea why developers tackled it.


I'll have to give it a detailed read when I have time to actively pursue 
nested links.

Thanks for the reference.

Re: Micro-report: using Stable without systemd

[Greg Wooledge]

On Tue, Oct 16, 2018 at 05:28:04PM -0400, Gene Heskett wrote:
> The point is that no one from the systemd camp has, to my knowledge, 
> posted a list of things it can do better than sysvinit. Point out 
> sysvinit's warts, and what systemd does to excise the ugly stuff.

I'm not really in "the systemd camp", but I'm definitely in the group
of people who want to get away from sysv-rc because of its tremendous
flaws.

In addition to the responses you've already received, here's one in
the form of a Frequently Given Answer.  I consider it a good starting
point if you're already an experienced sysadmin.

http://jdebp.eu./FGA/system-5-rc-problems.html

That said, it might not be the best starting point for novices who are
wondering what all this stuff even *means*.

Re: Micro-report: using Stable without systemd

[Morel Bérenger]

Le Wed, 17 Oct 2018 04:40:49 -0400,
Gene Heskett  a écrit :

> On Wednesday 17 October 2018 04:00:37 Morel Bérenger wrote:
> 
> > Le Tue, 16 Oct 2018 17:53:37 -0400,
> >
> > Gene Heskett  a écrit :  
> > > On Tuesday 16 October 2018 13:11:45 Greg Wooledge wrote:  
> > > > On Tue, Oct 16, 2018 at 12:43:40PM -0400, Gene Heskett wrote:  
> > > > > #1 is ssh -Y has been killed from jessie on. No excuse for
> > > > > doing it and bug filing is ignored.  
> > > >
> > > > I don't know what you mean by this.  I just performed the
> > > > following experiment on my stretch workstation (wooledg), in
> > > > communications with a stretch server (arc3) elsewhere on our
> > > > network.
> > > >
> > > > 1) Already logged into wooledg, I opened a new urxvt window.
> > > >
> > > > 2) In this window, I typed: ssh -Y arc3
> > > >
> > > > 3) After authenticating to arc3 with a password, at the shell
> > > > prompt, I typed: xterm
> > > >
> > > > 4) After a moment, a new xterm window appeared on my display.  
> > >
> > > Thats expected. Now enter synaptic-pkexec. It should ask you, if
> > > you are user 1000, for a passwd and given it, it will run. But
> > > after wheezy, its not possible. LinuxCNC's graphics needs are
> > > modest, and it will run, as the user. But its not root. And root
> > > is denied regardless of how you go about obtaining root
> > > permissions.  
> >
> > Also, I wonder if you tried to do that through, for example Xephyr?
> > Might workaround the issue you have?  
> 
> Well I was just reminded that gksudo works. Now what the heck is
> Xephyr? Google says its x on x, whatever that means. I'll try to
> remember that and play with it if its available for wheezy & later.
> 
> Thanks Morel Bérenger.
> 

The ncurses mode of aptitude says Xephyr is a X server that can be
executed inside another X server, more or less like Xnest (or xming,
for people like me that had to work on a windows station but wanted to
keep a nice wm embedded on personal hardware ;)).

I can not really explain how this works, but in short you could
consider a remote system providing the performances stuff (hard disk
space, strong CPU, tons or RAM...) and opening the X session on local
systems.
I think it might fix your problem because basically, su-programs
(probably PAM modules, in fact) do some security related checks to
avoid passwords to be sniffed by a client on another computer: which is
what I would expect a ssh -Y gksudo do.

If my explanation is not clear (and I'm certain of it), it's because I
don't really master that side of systems, sorry for that :)


pgpbf0VO5bYVv.pgp
Description: Signature digitale OpenPGP

Re: Micro-report: using Stable without systemd

[tomas]

On Wed, Oct 17, 2018 at 04:58:58AM -0400, Gene Heskett wrote:
> On Wednesday 17 October 2018 04:11:00 to...@tuxteam.de wrote:

[...]

> > Now there are counter-arguments to all of that, and on my balance
> > they dominate (that's why I stick with sysvinit), but saying that
> > "no one from the systemd camp has ... posted a list of things ..."
> > is highly unfair. Look again.
> 
> Where?
> 
> > You ask where? My go-to site for fundamental knowledge is lwn.net.
> > A (hpoefully *not* Google) network search "systemd site:lwn.net"
> > yields, among other things, those gems:
> 
> Not an lwn subscriber. I mean publically available sites. lwn is not.

C'mon, Gene. You can do better. Just /look/ at things before stating
alternative facts.

LWN /is/ a subscription-financed site. But its content is generally
available, has always been. Non-subscribers just "pay" a week's
delay for editorial content. After that, it's accessible to all, no
strings attached.
 
> >   Systemd programming part 1: modularity and configuration
> >   https://lwn.net/Articles/584175/
> >
> By golly, the embargo has expired, so the public can access them. I WILL 
> read them when I have working eyes again.

The "embargo" is, and has been for a long time, just one week. For a
subscriber-sponsored publication (which is very important, because this
means independency from the Big Ones!), this is outstanding, IMHO.

> We'll see, after I have absorbed what lwn has to offer. I've never been 
> bashfull about that when I find I'm wrong.

:-)

> > (And all of this from a systemd opponent. Sheesh.)
> 
> That figures, Tomas, many thanks.

I never dreamt I was going to do this ;-D

Cheers
-- tomás


signature.asc
Description: Digital signature

Re: Micro-report: using Stable without systemd

[Morel Bérenger]

Le Tue, 16 Oct 2018 17:53:37 -0400,
Gene Heskett  a écrit :

> For me, its a right PITA because I am forced to goto that machines
> keyboard/monitor location when there is something I need to install.

I wonder why you don't use a tool like rex in combination with apt/dpkg
to update/install softwares on your systems?
I mean, this would allow you to do the task on all the systems you need
to do it, at once, instead of moving on every single computer by foot
or by network?


pgpPIbmygXD7Y.pgp
Description: Signature digitale OpenPGP

Re: Micro-report: using Stable without systemd

[Gene Heskett]

On Wednesday 17 October 2018 04:11:00 to...@tuxteam.de wrote:

> On Tue, Oct 16, 2018 at 05:28:04PM -0400, Gene Heskett wrote:
>
> [...]
>
> > The point is that no one from the systemd camp has, to my knowledge,
> > posted a list of things it can do better than sysvinit. Point out
> > sysvinit's warts, and what systemd does to excise the ugly stuff.
>
> Now this is unfair. There *has* been a lot of discussion, by both
> sides. Lennart Poettering himself (you /may/ like his ways or you
> may dislike them) has gone out of his way to explain how the whole
> thing works.
>
> Off the top of may head, what systemd has to offer over
> (out-of-the-box) sysvinit:
>
>   - process supervision: when a daemon is started by sysvinit,
> it (typically) plonks its PID in some pid file. sysvinit
> forgets about it. If the proc dies, it's up to you to do
> something about it (there are "third-party" process supervisors
> like runit, or you can just bricolage your own, a thing I've
> done myself some times).
>
> This actually brings something back we (those old enough who
> weren't wasting their time back then with Norton Commander ;-)

Norton Commander? Heard of it, never used it, never had a dos or windows 
box of my own. I went from trs-80 color computers running the unix-like  
os9, to amigados, to linux, and have never missed amigados's lack of a 
memory management. I recall the early days when CED would scribble all 
over memory it didn't own so you were looking at the guru entirely too 
often.  That finally got fixed but it took years.

> used to have with /etc/rc style booting. Those still showing
> some Pavlovian kind of salivation at the sight of "getty"
> and "respawn" will know what I mean
>
>   - socket-based activation: systemd listens on IPC or network
> sockets, and whenever a "client" knocks on them, it starts
> the service supposed to be serving this socket: i.e. whenever
> someone tries to contact the PosrgreSQL database at port
> 5432, the database is started.
>
> This takes a lot of manual work usually done to sort the
> starting order of services, because they "sort themselves",
> based on who needs whom.
>
> This will remind some of us of (x)inetd. It is similar, but
> not the same

And amanda, being very old school, is still managed by it.
>
>   - Init configuration is expressed in a more declarative way
> ("what" you want to achieve) instead of the traditional
> imperative way ("how" you get there), which is deemed to
> be more robust wrt. change.
>
> Now there are counter-arguments to all of that, and on my balance
> they dominate (that's why I stick with sysvinit), but saying that
> "no one from the systemd camp has ... posted a list of things ..."
> is highly unfair. Look again.

Where?

> You ask where? My go-to site for fundamental knowledge is lwn.net.
> A (hpoefully *not* Google) network search "systemd site:lwn.net"
> yields, among other things, those gems:

Not an lwn subscriber. I mean publically available sites. lwn is not.

>   Systemd programming part 1: modularity and configuration
>   https://lwn.net/Articles/584175/
>
By golly, the embargo has expired, so the public can access them. I WILL 
read them when I have working eyes again.

>   Systemd programming part 2: activation and language issues
>   https://lwn.net/Articles/587385/
>
> Enjoy. And apologize to the systemd proponents ;-)

We'll see, after I have absorbed what lwn has to offer. I've never been 
bashfull about that when I find I'm wrong.
>
> (And all of this from a systemd opponent. Sheesh.)

That figures, Tomas, many thanks.

> Cheers
> -- tomás

-- 
Cheers, Gene Heskett
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page 

Re: Micro-report: using Stable without systemd

[Gene Heskett]

On Wednesday 17 October 2018 04:00:37 Morel Bérenger wrote:

> Le Tue, 16 Oct 2018 17:53:37 -0400,
>
> Gene Heskett  a écrit :
> > On Tuesday 16 October 2018 13:11:45 Greg Wooledge wrote:
> > > On Tue, Oct 16, 2018 at 12:43:40PM -0400, Gene Heskett wrote:
> > > > #1 is ssh -Y has been killed from jessie on. No excuse for doing
> > > > it and bug filing is ignored.
> > >
> > > I don't know what you mean by this.  I just performed the
> > > following experiment on my stretch workstation (wooledg), in
> > > communications with a stretch server (arc3) elsewhere on our
> > > network.
> > >
> > > 1) Already logged into wooledg, I opened a new urxvt window.
> > >
> > > 2) In this window, I typed: ssh -Y arc3
> > >
> > > 3) After authenticating to arc3 with a password, at the shell
> > > prompt, I typed: xterm
> > >
> > > 4) After a moment, a new xterm window appeared on my display.
> >
> > Thats expected. Now enter synaptic-pkexec. It should ask you, if you
> > are user 1000, for a passwd and given it, it will run. But after
> > wheezy, its not possible. LinuxCNC's graphics needs are modest, and
> > it will run, as the user. But its not root. And root is denied
> > regardless of how you go about obtaining root permissions.
>
> Also, I wonder if you tried to do that through, for example Xephyr?
> Might workaround the issue you have?

Well I was just reminded that gksudo works. Now what the heck is Xephyr? 
Google says its x on x, whatever that means. I'll try to remember that 
and play with it if its available for wheezy & later.

Thanks Morel Bérenger.

-- 
Cheers, Gene Heskett
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page 

Re: Micro-report: using Stable without systemd

[Alessandro Vesely]

On Tue 16/Oct/2018 16:54:57 +0200 Morel Bérenger wrote:
> Le Sun, 14 Oct 2018 10:23:15 -0400,
> Dan Ritter  a écrit :
> 
>> I have encountered no problems that can be attributed to my choice of
>> init system.
> 
> Doing the same. Works fine, except the fact network interfaces that are
> using DHCPCD but are unplugged slow down the boot process *a lot*.
> I could only solve that point by no longer
> using /etc/network/interfaces and initialising stuff by hand in a
> home-made service script (using runit on top of sysV here, so that's
> pretty easy to do).


Same here, although the reason for rolling my own script was to simplify
setting up a server-router-firewall boot.  I wouldn't call that a problem,
though.  Flexibility is a feature.


> Concerning the fact systemd-udev's developers do not intend to support
> non-systemd inits, I guess the best would be to port the Devuan's eudev
> package to Debian.
> That would probably not be that hard, and might become something I'll
> need to do for work someday.

Interesting.

Best
Ale
-- 

Re: Micro-report: using Stable without systemd

[Jonathan Dowland]

On Tue, Oct 16, 2018 at 05:28:04PM -0400, Gene Heskett wrote:

> > On Tue, Oct 16, 2018 at 11:18:10AM -0400, Gene Heskett wrote:
> > >The packagers, who probably have a better overall view of just
> > > what this thing called systemd is, should be speaking up to
> > > confirm or dispel this rumor


I thought it was a reasonable question, and I didn't start that rumor.
Like most however, I am seeing our community shooting at each other and
I don't like it.


I didn't see a question: I saw an assertion that the systemd packagers
should take some action.

Starting rumors is like being patient 0 in a pandemic It's useful to
know who/where/what patient 0 is/was, but stopping the pandemic means
stopping the carriers.


The point is that no one from the systemd camp has, to my knowledge,
posted a list of things it can do better than sysvinit. Point out
sysvinit's warts, and what systemd does to excise the ugly stuff.

But there has been zero salesmanship that has reached my environment.


My first reaction to this was amazement that you could have missed this
stuff, of which there is plenty. But, on reflection, many people will
have missed it, because of the terrible signal:noise ratio whenever the
topic comes up.


Why is this? If there is a url explaining this, please post, so the rest
of us can be educated.


I'm not going to advocate for systemd, and if you want to evaluate it
for your own use, please do so actively, not passively. It would wise
also to ask general questions about it on its own mailing list(s) rather
than here. I will, however, re-post one URI I posted in another reply
(regarding security). It's the twelfth post in a series of in-depth,
technical focus articles that talk about the things you can do with
systemd. If you truly are interested in checking it out, then this
series is a good place to start.

http://0pointer.de/blog/projects/security.html


I'm sure I am not the only one laying back to see the casualty
list before I commit to diving in head first.


Fair enough holding off on looking at it; but please don't ask people to
spoon-feed the salient points afterwards. Some of us are already
forgetting life under sysvinit, so it's getting harder by the day to try
and answer the question of why we switched in retrospect.

Doing some research would also help you to answer your own question as
to the likelyhood of it being an NSA/Microsoft/alien plot etc.

--

⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀
⣾⠁⢠⠒⠀⣿⡁ Jonathan Dowland
⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋⠀ https://jmtd.net
⠈⠳⣄ Please do not CC me, I am subscribed to the list.

Re: Micro-report: using Stable without systemd

[Morel Bérenger]

Le Tue, 16 Oct 2018 17:53:37 -0400,
Gene Heskett  a écrit :

> On Tuesday 16 October 2018 13:11:45 Greg Wooledge wrote:
> 
> > On Tue, Oct 16, 2018 at 12:43:40PM -0400, Gene Heskett wrote:  
> > > #1 is ssh -Y has been killed from jessie on. No excuse for doing
> > > it and bug filing is ignored.  
> >
> > I don't know what you mean by this.  I just performed the following
> > experiment on my stretch workstation (wooledg), in communications
> > with a stretch server (arc3) elsewhere on our network.
> >
> > 1) Already logged into wooledg, I opened a new urxvt window.
> >
> > 2) In this window, I typed: ssh -Y arc3
> >
> > 3) After authenticating to arc3 with a password, at the shell
> > prompt, I typed: xterm
> >
> > 4) After a moment, a new xterm window appeared on my display.  
> 
> Thats expected. Now enter synaptic-pkexec. It should ask you, if you
> are user 1000, for a passwd and given it, it will run. But after
> wheezy, its not possible. LinuxCNC's graphics needs are modest, and
> it will run, as the user. But its not root. And root is denied
> regardless of how you go about obtaining root permissions.

Also, I wonder if you tried to do that through, for example Xephyr?
Might workaround the issue you have?


pgpEKkvNSchqI.pgp
Description: Signature digitale OpenPGP

Re: Micro-report: using Stable without systemd

[tomas]

On Tue, Oct 16, 2018 at 05:28:04PM -0400, Gene Heskett wrote:

[...]

> The point is that no one from the systemd camp has, to my knowledge, 
> posted a list of things it can do better than sysvinit. Point out 
> sysvinit's warts, and what systemd does to excise the ugly stuff.

Now this is unfair. There *has* been a lot of discussion, by both
sides. Lennart Poettering himself (you /may/ like his ways or you
may dislike them) has gone out of his way to explain how the whole
thing works.

Off the top of may head, what systemd has to offer over (out-of-the-box)
sysvinit:

  - process supervision: when a daemon is started by sysvinit,
it (typically) plonks its PID in some pid file. sysvinit
forgets about it. If the proc dies, it's up to you to do
something about it (there are "third-party" process supervisors
like runit, or you can just bricolage your own, a thing I've
done myself some times).

This actually brings something back we (those old enough who
weren't wasting their time back then with Norton Commander ;-)
used to have with /etc/rc style booting. Those still showing
some Pavlovian kind of salivation at the sight of "getty"
and "respawn" will know what I mean

  - socket-based activation: systemd listens on IPC or network
sockets, and whenever a "client" knocks on them, it starts
the service supposed to be serving this socket: i.e. whenever
someone tries to contact the PosrgreSQL database at port
5432, the database is started.

This takes a lot of manual work usually done to sort the
starting order of services, because they "sort themselves",
based on who needs whom.

This will remind some of us of (x)inetd. It is similar, but
not the same

  - Init configuration is expressed in a more declarative way
("what" you want to achieve) instead of the traditional
imperative way ("how" you get there), which is deemed to
be more robust wrt. change.

Now there are counter-arguments to all of that, and on my balance
they dominate (that's why I stick with sysvinit), but saying that
"no one from the systemd camp has ... posted a list of things ..."
is highly unfair. Look again.

You ask where? My go-to site for fundamental knowledge is lwn.net.
A (hpoefully *not* Google) network search "systemd site:lwn.net"
yields, among other things, those gems:

  Systemd programming part 1: modularity and configuration
  https://lwn.net/Articles/584175/

  Systemd programming part 2: activation and language issues
  https://lwn.net/Articles/587385/

Enjoy. And apologize to the systemd proponents ;-)

(And all of this from a systemd opponent. Sheesh.)

Cheers
-- tomás



signature.asc
Description: Digital signature

Re: Micro-report: using Stable without systemd

[mick crane]

On 2018-10-17 05:33, David Wright wrote:

On Wed 17 Oct 2018 at 04:35:36 (+0100), mick crane wrote:

On 2018-10-16 22:53, Gene Heskett wrote:
> On Tuesday 16 October 2018 13:11:45 Greg Wooledge wrote:
>
> > On Tue, Oct 16, 2018 at 12:43:40PM -0400, Gene Heskett wrote:
> > > #1 is ssh -Y has been killed from jessie on. No excuse for doing it
> > > and bug filing is ignored.
> >
> > I don't know what you mean by this.  I just performed the following
> > experiment on my stretch workstation (wooledg), in communications with
> > a stretch server (arc3) elsewhere on our network.
> >
> > 1) Already logged into wooledg, I opened a new urxvt window.
> >
> > 2) In this window, I typed: ssh -Y arc3
> >
> > 3) After authenticating to arc3 with a password, at the shell prompt,
> > I typed: xterm
> >
> > 4) After a moment, a new xterm window appeared on my display.
>
> Thats expected. Now enter synaptic-pkexec. It should ask you, if
> you are
> user 1000, for a passwd and given it, it will run. But after
> wheezy, its
> not possible. LinuxCNC's graphics needs are modest, and it will run, as
> the user. But its not root.

seems correct you can't use X over ssh as root.
I don't know why but always seemed wrong running X as root.


To be fair, I don't think Gene is trying to run X as root (which would
an X *server*), but just a client. Yes, I agree that running X as root
would be horrible, but I have no difficulty in running an X client as
root, either on the same machine or having logged in as root (by key)
to another machine. But I would be very choosy about which clients I'd
be prepared to run.


meant clients. I'm a bit uncertain how exporting X works.
Had it working with keys as user and left it alone.
Assume ssh on remote sends X requests to machine you are sat at.
Changed a bit sshd_config on remote to check this but guess that might 
be sshd_config on sat at machine and ssh_config on remote ( or both, I 
dunno ).

will have a fiddle but assume it's not meant to work.

mick





Cheers,
David.


--
Key ID4BFEBB31

Re: Micro-report: using Stable without systemd

[Felmon Davis]

On Tue, 16 Oct 2018, Gene Heskett wrote:


Other things on my mind, like the cataract op on my right eye at 7AM,


good luck with that! I had both eyes done this past Spring.

fjd

--
Felmon Davis

Re: Micro-report: using Stable without systemd

[David Wright]

On Wed 17 Oct 2018 at 04:35:36 (+0100), mick crane wrote:
> On 2018-10-16 22:53, Gene Heskett wrote:
> > On Tuesday 16 October 2018 13:11:45 Greg Wooledge wrote:
> > 
> > > On Tue, Oct 16, 2018 at 12:43:40PM -0400, Gene Heskett wrote:
> > > > #1 is ssh -Y has been killed from jessie on. No excuse for doing it
> > > > and bug filing is ignored.
> > > 
> > > I don't know what you mean by this.  I just performed the following
> > > experiment on my stretch workstation (wooledg), in communications with
> > > a stretch server (arc3) elsewhere on our network.
> > > 
> > > 1) Already logged into wooledg, I opened a new urxvt window.
> > > 
> > > 2) In this window, I typed: ssh -Y arc3
> > > 
> > > 3) After authenticating to arc3 with a password, at the shell prompt,
> > > I typed: xterm
> > > 
> > > 4) After a moment, a new xterm window appeared on my display.
> > 
> > Thats expected. Now enter synaptic-pkexec. It should ask you, if
> > you are
> > user 1000, for a passwd and given it, it will run. But after
> > wheezy, its
> > not possible. LinuxCNC's graphics needs are modest, and it will run, as
> > the user. But its not root.
> 
> seems correct you can't use X over ssh as root.
> I don't know why but always seemed wrong running X as root.

To be fair, I don't think Gene is trying to run X as root (which would
an X *server*), but just a client. Yes, I agree that running X as root
would be horrible, but I have no difficulty in running an X client as
root, either on the same machine or having logged in as root (by key)
to another machine. But I would be very choosy about which clients I'd
be prepared to run.

Cheers,
David.

Re: Micro-report: using Stable without systemd

[mick crane]

On 2018-10-16 22:53, Gene Heskett wrote:

On Tuesday 16 October 2018 13:11:45 Greg Wooledge wrote:


On Tue, Oct 16, 2018 at 12:43:40PM -0400, Gene Heskett wrote:
> #1 is ssh -Y has been killed from jessie on. No excuse for doing it
> and bug filing is ignored.

I don't know what you mean by this.  I just performed the following
experiment on my stretch workstation (wooledg), in communications with
a stretch server (arc3) elsewhere on our network.

1) Already logged into wooledg, I opened a new urxvt window.

2) In this window, I typed: ssh -Y arc3

3) After authenticating to arc3 with a password, at the shell prompt,
I typed: xterm

4) After a moment, a new xterm window appeared on my display.


Thats expected. Now enter synaptic-pkexec. It should ask you, if you 
are
user 1000, for a passwd and given it, it will run. But after wheezy, 
its

not possible. LinuxCNC's graphics needs are modest, and it will run, as
the user. But its not root.


seems correct you can't use X over ssh as root.
I don't know why but always seemed wrong running X as root.


mick


--
Key ID4BFEBB31

Re: Micro-report: using Stable without systemd

[Gene Heskett]

On Tuesday 16 October 2018 19:01:53 David Wright wrote:

> On Tue 16 Oct 2018 at 17:53:37 (-0400), Gene Heskett wrote:
> > On Tuesday 16 October 2018 13:11:45 Greg Wooledge wrote:
> > > On Tue, Oct 16, 2018 at 12:43:40PM -0400, Gene Heskett wrote:
> > > > #1 is ssh -Y has been killed from jessie on. No excuse for doing
> > > > it and bug filing is ignored.
> > >
> > > I don't know what you mean by this.  I just performed the
> > > following experiment on my stretch workstation (wooledg), in
> > > communications with a stretch server (arc3) elsewhere on our
> > > network.
> > >
> > > 1) Already logged into wooledg, I opened a new urxvt window.
> > >
> > > 2) In this window, I typed: ssh -Y arc3
> > >
> > > 3) After authenticating to arc3 with a password, at the shell
> > > prompt, I typed: xterm
> > >
> > > 4) After a moment, a new xterm window appeared on my display.
> >
> > Thats expected. Now enter synaptic-pkexec. It should ask you, if you
> > are user 1000, for a passwd and given it, it will run. But after
> > wheezy, its not possible. LinuxCNC's graphics needs are modest, and
> > it will run, as the user. But its not root. And root is denied
> > regardless of how you go about obtaining root permissions.  For me,
> > its a right PITA because I am forced to goto that machines
> > keyboard/monitor location when there is something I need to install.
> > And those, with a single exception, are all standup, look up at the
> > monitor and get a sore neck from tilting ones head back far enough
> > to get the bi section of my trifocals up so I can read what the
> > monitor is telling me. I presume all this discomfort is the result
> > of somebody deciding that root cannot be trusted to export the gui
> > of the program he wants to run.
> >
> > That to me is quite similar to the warm, sometimes steaming
> > green/brown piles of used food for the male of the bovine specie.
> >
> > It is my machine, let me run it the way /I/ want.
> >
> > > 5) Inside this xterm, to confirm that the xterm was running on
> > > arc3, I typed: uname -a
> > >
> > > Terminal sessions shown without modification:
> > >
> > > =
> > > wooledg:~$ ssh -Y arc3
> > > wooledg@arc3's password:
> > > Linux arc3 4.9.0-8-686-pae #1 SMP Debian 4.9.110-3+deb9u5
> > > (2018-09-30) i686
> > >
> > > The programs included with the Debian GNU/Linux system are free
> > > software; the exact distribution terms for each program are
> > > described in the individual files in /usr/share/doc/*/copyright.
> > >
> > > Debian GNU/Linux comes with ABSOLUTELY NO WARRANTY, to the extent
> > > permitted by applicable law.
> > > Last login: Mon Oct  1 17:18:16 2018 from 10.76.172.97
> > > $ xterm
> > >
> > > =
> > > $ uname -a
> > > Linux arc3 4.9.0-8-686-pae #1 SMP Debian 4.9.110-3+deb9u5
> > > (2018-09-30) i686 GNU/Linux $
> > > =
> > >
> > > So, I don't know why you believe that ssh's -Y option has been
> > > "killed". If you are having trouble with it, start a new thread
> > > and we can try to help you figure out what's wrong.
> >
> > See above, and tell me again that its not /now/ broken. I need some
> > levity at my age.
> >
> > As for the new thread, I have posted to this list 3 or 4 times about
> > this and got nothing but crickets. After a while, one gets the
> > impression its a verboten question.
>
> I was under the impression that your ssh X forwarding problem was
> fixed https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2018/09/msg00836.html as
> was your synaptic problem
> https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2018/09/msg00870.html or have you
> changed your mind?
>
No, but never having gotten into the habit of using it, I had forgotten 
about it already. Its working on jessie (armhf) now try stretch (arm64)
I didn't have to enter my pw for jessie, but had to on stretch but both 
are running, so lets see if stretch actually works. Yes, now to paint it 
on the wall so I don't forget again. :(

Other things on my mind, like the cataract op on my right eye at 7AM, an 
hour north of here.  Or we could blame it on oldtimers, I have fought 
with this for 2 years!


> Cheers,
> David.



-- 
Cheers, Gene Heskett
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page 

Re: Micro-report: using Stable without systemd

[David Wright]

On Tue 16 Oct 2018 at 17:53:37 (-0400), Gene Heskett wrote:
> On Tuesday 16 October 2018 13:11:45 Greg Wooledge wrote:
> 
> > On Tue, Oct 16, 2018 at 12:43:40PM -0400, Gene Heskett wrote:
> > > #1 is ssh -Y has been killed from jessie on. No excuse for doing it
> > > and bug filing is ignored.
> >
> > I don't know what you mean by this.  I just performed the following
> > experiment on my stretch workstation (wooledg), in communications with
> > a stretch server (arc3) elsewhere on our network.
> >
> > 1) Already logged into wooledg, I opened a new urxvt window.
> >
> > 2) In this window, I typed: ssh -Y arc3
> >
> > 3) After authenticating to arc3 with a password, at the shell prompt,
> > I typed: xterm
> >
> > 4) After a moment, a new xterm window appeared on my display.
> 
> Thats expected. Now enter synaptic-pkexec. It should ask you, if you are 
> user 1000, for a passwd and given it, it will run. But after wheezy, its 
> not possible. LinuxCNC's graphics needs are modest, and it will run, as 
> the user. But its not root. And root is denied regardless of how you go 
> about obtaining root permissions.  For me, its a right PITA because I am 
> forced to goto that machines keyboard/monitor location when there is 
> something I need to install. And those, with a single exception, are all 
> standup, look up at the monitor and get a sore neck from tilting ones 
> head back far enough to get the bi section of my trifocals up so I can 
> read what the monitor is telling me. I presume all this discomfort is 
> the result of somebody deciding that root cannot be trusted to export 
> the gui of the program he wants to run.
> 
> That to me is quite similar to the warm, sometimes steaming green/brown 
> piles of used food for the male of the bovine specie.
> 
> It is my machine, let me run it the way /I/ want.
> 
> 
> > 5) Inside this xterm, to confirm that the xterm was running on arc3,
> >I typed: uname -a
> >
> > Terminal sessions shown without modification:
> >
> > =
> > wooledg:~$ ssh -Y arc3
> > wooledg@arc3's password:
> > Linux arc3 4.9.0-8-686-pae #1 SMP Debian 4.9.110-3+deb9u5 (2018-09-30)
> > i686
> >
> > The programs included with the Debian GNU/Linux system are free
> > software; the exact distribution terms for each program are described
> > in the individual files in /usr/share/doc/*/copyright.
> >
> > Debian GNU/Linux comes with ABSOLUTELY NO WARRANTY, to the extent
> > permitted by applicable law.
> > Last login: Mon Oct  1 17:18:16 2018 from 10.76.172.97
> > $ xterm
> >
> > =
> > $ uname -a
> > Linux arc3 4.9.0-8-686-pae #1 SMP Debian 4.9.110-3+deb9u5 (2018-09-30)
> > i686 GNU/Linux $
> > =
> >
> > So, I don't know why you believe that ssh's -Y option has been
> > "killed". If you are having trouble with it, start a new thread and we
> > can try to help you figure out what's wrong.
> 
> See above, and tell me again that its not /now/ broken. I need some 
> levity at my age.
> 
> As for the new thread, I have posted to this list 3 or 4 times about this 
> and got nothing but crickets. After a while, one gets the impression its 
> a verboten question.

I was under the impression that your ssh X forwarding problem was fixed
https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2018/09/msg00836.html as was your
synaptic problem https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2018/09/msg00870.html
or have you changed your mind?

Cheers,
David.

Re: Micro-report: using Stable without systemd

[Gene Heskett]

On Tuesday 16 October 2018 13:11:45 Greg Wooledge wrote:

> On Tue, Oct 16, 2018 at 12:43:40PM -0400, Gene Heskett wrote:
> > #1 is ssh -Y has been killed from jessie on. No excuse for doing it
> > and bug filing is ignored.
>
> I don't know what you mean by this.  I just performed the following
> experiment on my stretch workstation (wooledg), in communications with
> a stretch server (arc3) elsewhere on our network.
>
> 1) Already logged into wooledg, I opened a new urxvt window.
>
> 2) In this window, I typed: ssh -Y arc3
>
> 3) After authenticating to arc3 with a password, at the shell prompt,
> I typed: xterm
>
> 4) After a moment, a new xterm window appeared on my display.

Thats expected. Now enter synaptic-pkexec. It should ask you, if you are 
user 1000, for a passwd and given it, it will run. But after wheezy, its 
not possible. LinuxCNC's graphics needs are modest, and it will run, as 
the user. But its not root. And root is denied regardless of how you go 
about obtaining root permissions.  For me, its a right PITA because I am 
forced to goto that machines keyboard/monitor location when there is 
something I need to install. And those, with a single exception, are all 
standup, look up at the monitor and get a sore neck from tilting ones 
head back far enough to get the bi section of my trifocals up so I can 
read what the monitor is telling me. I presume all this discomfort is 
the result of somebody deciding that root cannot be trusted to export 
the gui of the program he wants to run.

That to me is quite similar to the warm, sometimes steaming green/brown 
piles of used food for the male of the bovine specie.

It is my machine, let me run it the way /I/ want.


> 5) Inside this xterm, to confirm that the xterm was running on arc3,
>I typed: uname -a
>
> Terminal sessions shown without modification:
>
> =
> wooledg:~$ ssh -Y arc3
> wooledg@arc3's password:
> Linux arc3 4.9.0-8-686-pae #1 SMP Debian 4.9.110-3+deb9u5 (2018-09-30)
> i686
>
> The programs included with the Debian GNU/Linux system are free
> software; the exact distribution terms for each program are described
> in the individual files in /usr/share/doc/*/copyright.
>
> Debian GNU/Linux comes with ABSOLUTELY NO WARRANTY, to the extent
> permitted by applicable law.
> Last login: Mon Oct  1 17:18:16 2018 from 10.76.172.97
> $ xterm
>
> =
> $ uname -a
> Linux arc3 4.9.0-8-686-pae #1 SMP Debian 4.9.110-3+deb9u5 (2018-09-30)
> i686 GNU/Linux $
> =
>
> So, I don't know why you believe that ssh's -Y option has been
> "killed". If you are having trouble with it, start a new thread and we
> can try to help you figure out what's wrong.

See above, and tell me again that its not /now/ broken. I need some 
levity at my age.

As for the new thread, I have posted to this list 3 or 4 times about this 
and got nothing but crickets. After a while, one gets the impression its 
a verboten question.

Thanks Greg. I'd continue this argument, but I'd better go put on my 
chefs hat and see what my lady wants for dinner. Then its eyedrops time 
and bedtime as I'm getting a new lens in my right eye early in the 
morning. And the OR is nearly an hour away, so I'll need to be on the 
road by 6AM.

-- 
Cheers, Gene Heskett
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page 

Re: Micro-report: using Stable without systemd

[Gene Heskett]

On Tuesday 16 October 2018 12:48:21 to...@tuxteam.de wrote:

> On Tue, Oct 16, 2018 at 12:18:43PM -0400, Default User wrote:
> > On Tue, Oct 16, 2018, 12:12 Jonathan Dowland  wrote:
> > > On Tue, Oct 16, 2018 at 11:18:10AM -0400, Gene Heskett wrote:
> > > >The packagers, who probably have a better overall view of just
> > > > what this thing called systemd is, should be speaking up to
> > > > confirm or dispel this rumor

I thought it was a reasonable question, and I didn't start that rumor. 
Like most however, I am seeing our community shooting at each other and 
I don't like it.

> > > Why waste time giving credence to nonsense? Those who are prepared
> > > to believe that systemd is some NSA trojan via a complicit Red Hat
> > > are perfectly able to widen their paranoia to include any systemd
> > > packager or advocate in Debian.
>
> [...]
>
> > Stockholm Syndrome detected!
>
> See? and this is why we can't have nice things. Look: I've got (in my
> view) good reasons to dislike systemd, enough of them to rather use
> sysv (which has its sizeable collection of warts itself!), but I don't
> need to resort to crazy conspiracy theories. Much less to hate anyone
> developing free software.

The point is that no one from the systemd camp has, to my knowledge, 
posted a list of things it can do better than sysvinit. Point out 
sysvinit's warts, and what systemd does to excise the ugly stuff.

But there has been zero salesmanship that has reached my environment.

Its been a take it or go buy windows attitude.

Why is this? If there is a url explaining this, please post, so the rest 
of us can be educated.

I'm sure I am not the only one laying back to see the casualty
list before I commit to diving in head first.

> Cheers
> -- tomás

-- 
Cheers, Gene Heskett
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page 

Re: Micro-report: using Stable without systemd

[Jonathan Dowland]

On Tue, Oct 16, 2018 at 06:48:21PM +0200, to...@tuxteam.de wrote:

See? and this is why we can't have nice things.


Spam filters and killfiles are nice things. If you hadn't fed that
troll, I would never have seen that line of their message.


--

⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀
⣾⠁⢠⠒⠀⣿⡁ Jonathan Dowland
⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋⠀ https://jmtd.net
⠈⠳⣄ Please do not CC me, I am subscribed to the list.

Re: Micro-report: using Stable without systemd

[Jonathan Dowland]

On Tue, Oct 16, 2018 at 12:43:40PM -0400, Gene Heskett wrote:

You forget I'm a red hat ex-pat.

snip

I understand that a stretch version is being worked on,

snip

I haven't forgotten anything: I didn't know, I don't need to know, and
none of what you wrote in this mail seems to have any relevance
whatsoever to what I thought we were discussing.

--

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⣾⠁⢠⠒⠀⣿⡁ Jonathan Dowland
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Re: Micro-report: using Stable without systemd

[Joe]

On Tue, 16 Oct 2018 16:54:48 +0100
Jonathan Dowland  wrote:

> On Tue, Oct 16, 2018 at 11:18:10AM -0400, Gene Heskett wrote:
> >The packagers, who probably have a better overall view of just what
> >this thing called systemd is, should be speaking up to confirm or
> >dispel this rumor  
> 
> Why waste time giving credence to nonsense? Those who are prepared to
> believe that systemd is some NSA trojan via a complicit Red Hat are
> perfectly able to widen their paranoia to include any systemd packager
> or advocate in Debian.

I would have thought that the nonsense would be to assert that there is
any operating system in use today which is not completely transparent to
the US government, and maybe others. I'm quite confident that gcc and
every other capable publicly-available C compiler is compromised in the
way demonstrated more than thirty years ago.

In the same way, I assume my Internet router leaks like a sieve, along
with all other network equipment more complex than a hub. We know that
there is an additional CPU built into Intel processors, and I certainly
wouldn't assume that the same isn't true of AMD. And why store computer
logs in a way not readable by the computer's owner using simple
software? There's only one plausible reason.

It doesn't bother me: I'm of no interest to the people who run things,
and if I were to take up nefarious activities in the future, I wouldn't
rely on high technology for my communications and record-keeping. My
only real concern is that the CIA et al seem to be remarkably poor at
keeping their eavesdropping tools to themselves.

-- 
Joe

Re: Micro-report: using Stable without systemd

[Morel Bérenger]

Le Sun, 14 Oct 2018 10:23:15 -0400,
Dan Ritter  a écrit :

> I have encountered no problems that can be attributed to my choice of
> init system.

Doing the same. Works fine, except the fact network interfaces that are
using DHCPCD but are unplugged slow down the boot process *a lot*.
I could only solve that point by no longer
using /etc/network/interfaces and initialising stuff by hand in a
home-made service script (using runit on top of sysV here, so that's
pretty easy to do).

However, I would like to point out that the best way to have really no
traces of systemd in a system after a fresh install is to use
(c)debootstrap in minimal flavour, chroot in the resulting system,
install sysVinit, then the init metapackage (optional, obviously, but
may avoid problems from upgrades), all the stuff a working Debian needs
(netbase, kernel, etc...).

This is the only way to avoid having users and groups lying around for
nothing, or other stuff (files in /var, maybe  units (never really
checked)... ).
This is what I'm doing through a PXE installation that auto-installs
systems.

Concerning the fact systemd-udev's developers do not intend to support
non-systemd inits, I guess the best would be to port the Devuan's eudev
package to Debian.
That would probably not be that hard, and might become something I'll
need to do for work someday.


pgpDp3ygoz4Rz.pgp
Description: Signature digitale OpenPGP

Re: Micro-report: using Stable without systemd

[mick crane]

On 2018-10-16 18:11, Greg Wooledge wrote:

On Tue, Oct 16, 2018 at 12:43:40PM -0400, Gene Heskett wrote:
#1 is ssh -Y has been killed from jessie on. No excuse for doing it 
and

bug filing is ignored.


I don't know what you mean by this.  I just performed the following
experiment on my stretch workstation (wooledg), in communications with
a stretch server (arc3) elsewhere on our network.

1) Already logged into wooledg, I opened a new urxvt window.

2) In this window, I typed: ssh -Y arc3

3) After authenticating to arc3 with a password, at the shell prompt, I
   typed: xterm

4) After a moment, a new xterm window appeared on my display.

5) Inside this xterm, to confirm that the xterm was running on arc3,
   I typed: uname -a

Terminal sessions shown without modification:


works here with Buster.
"ssh -Y me@otherPC"
"xclock"

xclock appears

mick

--
Key ID4BFEBB31

Re: Micro-report: using Stable without systemd

[Alessandro Vesely]

On Tue 16/Oct/2018 17:52:15 +0200 Jonathan Dowland wrote:
> On Tue, Oct 16, 2018 at 04:18:52PM +0200, john doe wrote:
>> Hopefully, both parties (Debian/Devian) will come back to there senses
>> and will find a way to accomodate supporting Systemd and an alternative
>> init daemon.
> 
> In the case of Debian, I don't think anyone is short of their senses.
> Those who want sysvinit to stay are clear that they want help and will
> work with others. There are just not *that* many volunteers who actually
> care about it.

I don't think Devuan will ever want to accommodate systemd.  Since they will
support sysvinit anyway, it looks like Debian will take their cooperation to
keep it alive.

SysV sounds stable enough to not require a lot of maintenance.  I hope systemd
won't steer toward incompatible dependencies, though.  I mean packages that
would depend on more than shim emulations.

Best
Ale
-- 

Re: Micro-report: using Stable without systemd

[Default User]

On Tue, Oct 16, 2018, 13:06  wrote:

> On Tue, Oct 16, 2018 at 12:18:43PM -0400, Default User wrote:
> > On Tue, Oct 16, 2018, 12:12 Jonathan Dowland  wrote:
> >
> > > On Tue, Oct 16, 2018 at 11:18:10AM -0400, Gene Heskett wrote:
> > > >The packagers, who probably have a better overall view of just what
> this
> > > >thing called systemd is, should be speaking up to confirm or dispel
> this
> > > >rumor
> > >
> > > Why waste time giving credence to nonsense? Those who are prepared to
> > > believe that systemd is some NSA trojan via a complicit Red Hat are
> > > perfectly able to widen their paranoia to include any systemd packager
> > > or advocate in Debian.
>
> [...]
>
> > Stockholm Syndrome detected!
>
> See? and this is why we can't have nice things. Look: I've got (in my
> view) good reasons to dislike systemd, enough of them to rather use
> sysv (which has its sizeable collection of warts itself!), but I don't
> need to resort to crazy conspiracy theories. Much less to hate anyone
> developing free software.
>
> Cheers
> -- tomás
>


Stockholm Syndrome confirmed!

Re: Micro-report: using Stable without systemd

[Greg Wooledge]

On Tue, Oct 16, 2018 at 12:43:40PM -0400, Gene Heskett wrote:
> #1 is ssh -Y has been killed from jessie on. No excuse for doing it and 
> bug filing is ignored.

I don't know what you mean by this.  I just performed the following
experiment on my stretch workstation (wooledg), in communications with
a stretch server (arc3) elsewhere on our network.

1) Already logged into wooledg, I opened a new urxvt window.

2) In this window, I typed: ssh -Y arc3

3) After authenticating to arc3 with a password, at the shell prompt, I
   typed: xterm

4) After a moment, a new xterm window appeared on my display.

5) Inside this xterm, to confirm that the xterm was running on arc3,
   I typed: uname -a

Terminal sessions shown without modification:

=
wooledg:~$ ssh -Y arc3
wooledg@arc3's password: 
Linux arc3 4.9.0-8-686-pae #1 SMP Debian 4.9.110-3+deb9u5 (2018-09-30) i686

The programs included with the Debian GNU/Linux system are free software;
the exact distribution terms for each program are described in the
individual files in /usr/share/doc/*/copyright.

Debian GNU/Linux comes with ABSOLUTELY NO WARRANTY, to the extent
permitted by applicable law.
Last login: Mon Oct  1 17:18:16 2018 from 10.76.172.97
$ xterm

=
$ uname -a
Linux arc3 4.9.0-8-686-pae #1 SMP Debian 4.9.110-3+deb9u5 (2018-09-30) i686 
GNU/Linux
$ 
=

So, I don't know why you believe that ssh's -Y option has been "killed".
If you are having trouble with it, start a new thread and we can try to
help you figure out what's wrong.

Re: Micro-report: using Stable without systemd

[tomas]

On Tue, Oct 16, 2018 at 12:18:43PM -0400, Default User wrote:
> On Tue, Oct 16, 2018, 12:12 Jonathan Dowland  wrote:
> 
> > On Tue, Oct 16, 2018 at 11:18:10AM -0400, Gene Heskett wrote:
> > >The packagers, who probably have a better overall view of just what this
> > >thing called systemd is, should be speaking up to confirm or dispel this
> > >rumor
> >
> > Why waste time giving credence to nonsense? Those who are prepared to
> > believe that systemd is some NSA trojan via a complicit Red Hat are
> > perfectly able to widen their paranoia to include any systemd packager
> > or advocate in Debian.

[...]

> Stockholm Syndrome detected!

See? and this is why we can't have nice things. Look: I've got (in my
view) good reasons to dislike systemd, enough of them to rather use
sysv (which has its sizeable collection of warts itself!), but I don't
need to resort to crazy conspiracy theories. Much less to hate anyone
developing free software.

Cheers
-- tomás


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Re: Micro-report: using Stable without systemd

[Gene Heskett]

On Tuesday 16 October 2018 11:54:48 Jonathan Dowland wrote:

> On Tue, Oct 16, 2018 at 11:18:10AM -0400, Gene Heskett wrote:
> >The packagers, who probably have a better overall view of just what
> > this thing called systemd is, should be speaking up to confirm or
> > dispel this rumor
>
> Why waste time giving credence to nonsense? Those who are prepared to
> believe that systemd is some NSA trojan via a complicit Red Hat are
> perfectly able to widen their paranoia to include any systemd packager
> or advocate in Debian.

You forget I'm a red hat ex-pat. Fedora was their lab rat and they had an 
endless supply of those so they didn't care if a fedora system died.  I 
got tired of an unusable system because my rat died, repeatedly, and 
voted with my feet to a superior distro.  And for 2 reasons I'm still on 
wheezy for 80% of the running machines here.

#1 is ssh -Y has been killed from jessie on. No excuse for doing it and 
bug filing is ignored.

#2 is linuxcnc is still being built and developed on wheezy.

I understand that a stretch version is being worked on, but no alpha 
versions we can try have been made available. It does run on armhf 
versions of jessie, although the pi is low on iron to really do the job 
up to the usual std's for linuxcnc. It is however, doing a decent job of 
moving 1500 lbs of 70 year old 11x36 Sheldon lathe for me, doing far 
more than Sheldon made it to do.

-- 
Cheers, Gene Heskett
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page 

Re: Micro-report: using Stable without systemd

[Default User]

On Tue, Oct 16, 2018, 12:12 Jonathan Dowland  wrote:

> On Tue, Oct 16, 2018 at 11:18:10AM -0400, Gene Heskett wrote:
> >The packagers, who probably have a better overall view of just what this
> >thing called systemd is, should be speaking up to confirm or dispel this
> >rumor
>
> Why waste time giving credence to nonsense? Those who are prepared to
> believe that systemd is some NSA trojan via a complicit Red Hat are
> perfectly able to widen their paranoia to include any systemd packager
> or advocate in Debian.
>
> >
>
> --
>
> ⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀
> ⣾⠁⢠⠒⠀⣿⡁ Jonathan Dowland
> ⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋⠀ https://jmtd.net
> ⠈⠳⣄ Please do not CC me, I am subscribed to the list.
>



Stockholm Syndrome detected!

Re: Micro-report: using Stable without systemd

[Jonathan Dowland]

On Tue, Oct 16, 2018 at 11:18:10AM -0400, Gene Heskett wrote:

The packagers, who probably have a better overall view of just what this
thing called systemd is, should be speaking up to confirm or dispel this
rumor


Why waste time giving credence to nonsense? Those who are prepared to
believe that systemd is some NSA trojan via a complicit Red Hat are
perfectly able to widen their paranoia to include any systemd packager
or advocate in Debian.





--

⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀
⣾⠁⢠⠒⠀⣿⡁ Jonathan Dowland
⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋⠀ https://jmtd.net
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Re: Micro-report: using Stable without systemd

[Jonathan Dowland]

On Tue, Oct 16, 2018 at 04:18:52PM +0200, john doe wrote:

Hopefully, both parties (Debian/Devian) will come back to there senses
and will find a way to accomodate supporting Systemd and an alternative
init daemon.


In the case of Debian, I don't think anyone is short of their senses.
Those who want sysvinit to stay are clear that they want help and will
work with others. There are just not *that* many volunteers who actually
care about it.

--

⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀
⣾⠁⢠⠒⠀⣿⡁ Jonathan Dowland
⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋⠀ https://jmtd.net
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Re: Micro-report: using Stable without systemd

[Gene Heskett]

On Tuesday 16 October 2018 05:23:33 to...@tuxteam.de wrote:

> On Tue, Oct 16, 2018 at 10:01:46AM +0100, Jonathan Dowland wrote:
>
> [...]
>
> > If sysvinit was removed from Debian, than this would increase the
> > amount of work for Devuan quite significantly, because lots of
> > individual Debian packages that currently implement sysvinit support
> > would slowly start not to, and Devuan would have to patch support
> > back in, over time.
>
> This is the most important point: at the end, it's the individual
> packagers who are doing the hard work. Personally I'm pretty unhappy
> about the Debian/Devuan split, which stems from a lot of distrust.
> I'm convinced that in the long term, this distrust is
> counter-productive for "both sides".
>
> Cheers
> -- tomás

This distrust seems to stem from the accusation that red hat, as the 
source of systemd, is in the NSA's pocket, the most serious charge I've 
read on these lists. This has the same flavor and distrust associated 
with selinux, which it seems has faded into the sands of time as it 
deserves to do. Given the past, not even close to honest reputation of 
the TLA's here, its entirely plausible.

I don't know, but that fact that the charge has been made seems almost 
like a microsoft planted rumor. If the intent was to split us up and 
reduce our marketplace and political power, I'd have to say its working.

And I d-mned sure don't like it.

The packagers, who probably have a better overall view of just what this 
thing called systemd is, should be speaking up to confirm or dispel this 
rumor, but those who do, tend to get shot at when they stick their heads 
up, so I cannot lay too much blame on their doorstep for not doing it.

We as a group, need to change our attitude toward the packagers as they 
try to hit a balance and give us good usefull code. There are channels 
to submit that which we think is wrong, called bugzilla. I think the 
packagers are doing a generally good, and often quite thankless job.

So here is my many thanks to them.

The only comment I'll make is that I would like to see the -Y option to 
ssh restored. Taking that away in jessie and stretch has been a huge 
hindrance in me getting what I want to do on my local network because it 
forces me to actually goto that machine to run its package manager's 
gui. That machine may not be equipt with a comfy office chair for such 
duties, it has another, more important function, and at my years, thats 
becoming a major hindrance.


-- 
Cheers, Gene Heskett
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page 

Re: Micro-report: using Stable without systemd

[john doe]

On 10/16/2018 11:01 AM, Jonathan Dowland wrote:
> On Mon, Oct 15, 2018 at 09:58:30AM -0400, Kenneth Parker wrote:
>> On Mon, Oct 15, 2018, 9:42 AM Jonathan Dowland  wrote:
>>> It's currently at risk by a lack of maintainers for the sysvinit
>>> package.
>>
>> Does this mean that Devuan is also at risk?
> 
> I can merely speculate. I know very little about Devuan, but the
> impression I have got in the last day (entirely via mails from other
> people to debian mailing lists, I have not investigated myself) is that
> they are short on people-power. (so is Debian, of course!)
> 
> If sysvinit was removed from Debian, than this would increase the amount
> of work for Devuan quite significantly, because lots of individual
> Debian packages that currently implement sysvinit support would slowly
> start not to, and Devuan would have to patch support back in, over time.
> 
> This would be more work, IMHO, than if interested parties collaborated
> to support the sysvinit package and keep it in Debian.
> 

Hopefully, both parties (Debian/Devian) will come back to there senses
and will find a way to accomodate supporting Systemd and an alternative
init daemon.

-- 
John Doe

Re: Micro-report: using Stable without systemd

[tomas]

On Tue, Oct 16, 2018 at 10:01:46AM +0100, Jonathan Dowland wrote:

[...]

> If sysvinit was removed from Debian, than this would increase the amount
> of work for Devuan quite significantly, because lots of individual
> Debian packages that currently implement sysvinit support would slowly
> start not to, and Devuan would have to patch support back in, over time.

This is the most important point: at the end, it's the individual
packagers who are doing the hard work. Personally I'm pretty unhappy
about the Debian/Devuan split, which stems from a lot of distrust.
I'm convinced that in the long term, this distrust is counter-productive
for "both sides".

Cheers
-- tomás


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Re: Micro-report: using Stable without systemd

[Jonathan Dowland]

On Mon, Oct 15, 2018 at 09:58:30AM -0400, Kenneth Parker wrote:

On Mon, Oct 15, 2018, 9:42 AM Jonathan Dowland  wrote:

It's currently at risk by a lack of maintainers for the sysvinit
package.


Does this mean that Devuan is also at risk?


I can merely speculate. I know very little about Devuan, but the
impression I have got in the last day (entirely via mails from other
people to debian mailing lists, I have not investigated myself) is that
they are short on people-power. (so is Debian, of course!)

If sysvinit was removed from Debian, than this would increase the amount
of work for Devuan quite significantly, because lots of individual
Debian packages that currently implement sysvinit support would slowly
start not to, and Devuan would have to patch support back in, over time.

This would be more work, IMHO, than if interested parties collaborated
to support the sysvinit package and keep it in Debian.

--

⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀
⣾⠁⢠⠒⠀⣿⡁ Jonathan Dowland
⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋⠀ https://jmtd.net
⠈⠳⣄ Please do not CC me, I am subscribed to the list.

Re: Micro-report: using Stable without systemd

[Kenneth Parker]

On Mon, Oct 15, 2018, 9:42 AM Jonathan Dowland  wrote:

> On Sun, Oct 14, 2018 at 10:23:15AM -0400, Dan Ritter wrote:
>
> >I hope that this situation continues in the next iteration of Stable,
>
> It's currently at risk by a lack of maintainers for the sysvinit
> package.
>

Does this mean that Devuan is also at risk?

(Even though I keep up, best I can, with SystemD, I keep a Parallel Devuan
up to date, in VirtualBox, to ensure that it doesn't lose Packages I need).

Kenneth Parker

>

Re: Micro-report: using Stable without systemd

[Jonathan Dowland]

On Sun, Oct 14, 2018 at 10:23:15AM -0400, Dan Ritter wrote:


I hope that this situation continues in the next iteration of Stable,


It's currently at risk by a lack of maintainers for the sysvinit
package.

--

⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀
⣾⠁⢠⠒⠀⣿⡁ Jonathan Dowland
⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋⠀ https://jmtd.net
⠈⠳⣄ Please do not CC me, I am subscribed to the list.

Re: Micro-report: using Stable without systemd

[Erik Christiansen]

On 14.10.18 12:36, Patrick Bartek wrote:
> FYI: Testing Devuan ascii now for future consideration.  No problems so
> far.  Still like runit though.  And it's easy to convert the
> default sysvinit to it.

+1  (Running pre-systemd debian on laptop and one old desktop, devuan
ascii on the new one and any future hosts.

Erik

-- 
(5)  It is always possible to agglutinate multiple separate problems
 into a single complex interdependent solution. In most cases
 this is a bad idea.
 RFC-1925

Re: Micro-report: using Stable without systemd

[Patrick Bartek]

On Sun, 14 Oct 2018 10:23:15 -0400
Dan Ritter  wrote:

> Throughout Jessie and Stretch, I have been running Debian without
> systemd as the init system. If systemd became installed by accident, I
> promptly removed it in favor of sysvinit.

So did I. Started with a clean, netistall, terminal only Stretch
system, converted to sysvinit, but left the systemd libraries as
dependencies.  No problems, not even during apt upgrade.  Sysvinit
remains the default init.

> I hope that this situation continues in the next iteration of Stable,
> but if not - I have investigated OpenRC and nosh, and determined to my
> own satisfaction that openrc does not offer enough benefits to be
> worth the cost of changing over, but nosh might.

Take a look at runitinit and runit (the supervisor).  I was considering
it as an improvement over sysvinit when I was looking to completely
purge systemd, but found too many Debian apps, etc. have some part of
systemd as a dependency and I'd have to jump through too many hoops to
be totally free of it with the resulting system being potentially less
stable. Something I DIDN'T want.

FYI: Testing Devuan ascii now for future consideration.  No problems so
far.  Still like runit though.  And it's easy to convert the
default sysvinit to it.

B

Re: Micro-report: using Stable without systemd

[Tixy]

On Sun, 2018-10-14 at 18:19 +0200, to...@tuxteam.de wrote:
> On Sun, Oct 14, 2018 at 04:57:49PM +0100, Tixy wrote:
> > On Sun, 2018-10-14 at 10:23 -0400, Dan Ritter wrote:
> > > Throughout Jessie and Stretch, I have been running Debian without
> > > systemd as the init system. If systemd became installed by
> > > accident,
> > > I
> > > promptly removed it in favor of sysvinit.
> > > 
> > > I have done so on six desktops, two laptops, and a large number
> > > (I
> > > will
> > > not specify, but in the hundreds) of servers. 
> > > 
> > > I have encountered no problems that can be attributed to my
> > > choice of
> > > init system.
> > 
> > I take it you don't have encrypted disks then, because with them
> > Stretch will hang on shutdown if you aren't using systemd as the
> > init
> > process [...]
> 
> This is fixable. I've encrypted disks (unencrypted boot plus one LUKS
> partition containing an LVM whithin which the other partitions live).

That's my setup too.

> All under sysvinit.
> 
> If there's interest, I can recap what I had to do to fix it (it
> seemed
> obvious to me at the time, but memory is treacherous).

Thanks for the offer, personally I'm sticking with systemd for now.

BTW, I just noticed, the Debian bug I mentioned [1] has had recent
activity and was marked as fixed a month ago, so I guess Buster will
be fixed.

[1] https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=794721

-- 
Tixy

Re: Micro-report: using Stable without systemd

[Dan Ritter]

On Sun, Oct 14, 2018 at 06:09:12PM +0200, john doe wrote:
> On 10/14/2018 4:23 PM, Dan Ritter wrote:
> > 
> > Throughout Jessie and Stretch, I have been running Debian without
> > systemd as the init system. If systemd became installed by accident, I
> > promptly removed it in favor of sysvinit.
> > 
> 
> If I understand correctly, on a fresh install of Debian systemd is
> purge.systemd.
> If yes, why not going for a Debian derivative that does not include
> systemd per default:
> 
> https://distrowatch.com/search.php?ostype=All=All=All=Debian=None=All=All=All=All=All=All=All=Not+systemd=Active#simple

Er, because I like Debian? I've been using it since 1.3.

> Or were all your hosts upgraded from a version where systemd was not
> installed?

Some, not all. On new systems, I remove systemd in favor of
sysvinit, as I said. 

-dsr-

Re: Micro-report: using Stable without systemd

[tomas]

On Sun, Oct 14, 2018 at 04:57:49PM +0100, Tixy wrote:
> On Sun, 2018-10-14 at 10:23 -0400, Dan Ritter wrote:
> > Throughout Jessie and Stretch, I have been running Debian without
> > systemd as the init system. If systemd became installed by accident,
> > I
> > promptly removed it in favor of sysvinit.
> > 
> > I have done so on six desktops, two laptops, and a large number (I
> > will
> > not specify, but in the hundreds) of servers. 
> > 
> > I have encountered no problems that can be attributed to my choice of
> > init system.
> 
> I take it you don't have encrypted disks then, because with them
> Stretch will hang on shutdown if you aren't using systemd as the init
> process [...]

This is fixable. I've encrypted disks (unencrypted boot plus one LUKS
partition containing an LVM whithin which the other partitions live).
All under sysvinit.

If there's interest, I can recap what I had to do to fix it (it seemed
obvious to me at the time, but memory is treacherous).

Cheers
-- t


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Re: Micro-report: using Stable without systemd

[john doe]

On 10/14/2018 4:23 PM, Dan Ritter wrote:
> 
> Throughout Jessie and Stretch, I have been running Debian without
> systemd as the init system. If systemd became installed by accident, I
> promptly removed it in favor of sysvinit.
> 

If I understand correctly, on a fresh install of Debian systemd is
purge.systemd.
If yes, why not going for a Debian derivative that does not include
systemd per default:

https://distrowatch.com/search.php?ostype=All=All=All=Debian=None=All=All=All=All=All=All=All=Not+systemd=Active#simple

Or were all your hosts upgraded from a version where systemd was not
installed?

-- 
John Doe

Re: Micro-report: using Stable without systemd

[tomas]

On Sun, Oct 14, 2018 at 10:23:15AM -0400, Dan Ritter wrote:
> 
> Throughout Jessie and Stretch, I have been running Debian without
> systemd as the init system. If systemd became installed by accident, I
> promptly removed it in favor of sysvinit.
> 
> I have done so on six desktops, two laptops, and a large number (I will
> not specify, but in the hundreds) of servers. 
> 
> I have encountered no problems that can be attributed to my choice of
> init system.

Can confirm that.

> I hope that this situation continues in the next iteration of Stable,

That's my hope too. Moreover I hope we can leave the bickering behind
us and realize that after all, we're all working on free software,
may our approaches differ sometimes.

Thanks for your report, cheers
-- tomás


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Re: Micro-report: using Stable without systemd

[Tixy]

On Sun, 2018-10-14 at 10:23 -0400, Dan Ritter wrote:
> Throughout Jessie and Stretch, I have been running Debian without
> systemd as the init system. If systemd became installed by accident,
> I
> promptly removed it in favor of sysvinit.
> 
> I have done so on six desktops, two laptops, and a large number (I
> will
> not specify, but in the hundreds) of servers. 
> 
> I have encountered no problems that can be attributed to my choice of
> init system.

I take it you don't have encrypted disks then, because with them
Stretch will hang on shutdown if you aren't using systemd as the init
process [1], that was the reason I finally gave in and installed
systemd when I upgraded to Stretch. The nail in the coffin was the
comments linked to from that bug report where udev upstream maintainers
said they don't support non-systemd init (udev is part of the systemd
project now).

[1] https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=794721

-- 
Tixy