Re: sexist content in the package openclipart2-png

[Chris Bannister]

On Fri, Jan 08, 2016 at 04:38:02PM -0500, David Niklas wrote:
> 
> You two are really funny.
> This thread is kinda funny too, don't you guys have more productive things
> to do then argue?

Probably the best time, at a guess, is *after* productive work.

-- 
"If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people
who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the 
oppressing." --- Malcolm X

Re: sexist content in the package openclipart2-png

[David Niklas]

On Wed, 6 Jan 2016 15:09:34 Gene Heskett wrote:
> On Wednesday 06 January 2016 11:46:09 Lisi Reisz wrote:
> 
> > On Wednesday 06 January 2016 15:45:22 Ric Moore wrote:  
> > > > jdd writes:  
> > > >> sexism - like describing women as men's toys should be prohibited
> > > >> (apart for historical work), and images may be such.  
> > > >
> > > > And disrespectful images of pasta should also be prohibited.  
> > >
> > > We've already been through this loop with Supertuxkart,  
> >
> > I don't remember Supertuxkart objectifying women to the extent of
> > equating them with pasta. :-/
> >
> > Lisi  
> 
> Being a long term DM-II diabetic, I'd like to see any images of pasta, 
> which I should not eat, excised from all of these image packages, 
> thereby removing the temptation. :-]>

You two are really funny.
This thread is kinda funny too, don't you guys have more productive things
to do then argue?
How about standing on your head and spitting pasta!?
My mother used to be concerned that my brother's Bionicles (LEGO plastic
figures), were standing in embarrassing positions (really).
She was afraid it would destroy my brothers self image (he was crazy
about them).

David

Re: sexist content in the package openclipart2-png

[Ron]

On Mon, 18 Jan 2016 20:57:40 +0100
deloptes  wrote:

> But we want to be politically correct right?

"Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical 
minority,
and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media,
which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a 
turd by the clean end."
 
Cheers,
 
Ron.
-- 
   Good manners: The noise you don't make when you're eating soup.
   -- Bennett Cerf

   -- http://www.olgiati-in-paraguay.org --
 

Re: sexist content in the package openclipart2-png

[Thomas Schmitt]

Hi,

how about we just add these obscure figures to the list of
known sex offenders and close the case ?
  
http://vignette4.wikia.nocookie.net/disney/images/c/c9/Toy-story-2-characters-desktop-wallpaper-3840x2400.jpg


Have a nice day :)

Thomas

Re: sexist content in the package openclipart2-png

[John Hasler]

deloptes writes:
> You've seen an "obese" coming out from McDonalds or similar with take
> away bag full to the top?  How do you feel? S/he is taking care of
> what ... the money all we pay to the health care system for her/his
> treatments?

Chris Bannister writes:
> I personally resent that.

Do you also resent people who engage in other dangerous hobbies?
-- 
John Hasler 
jhas...@newsguy.com
Elmwood, WI USA

Re: sexist content in the package openclipart2-png

[Chris Bannister]

On Thu, Jan 07, 2016 at 08:02:14AM -0600, John Hasler wrote:
> deloptes writes:
> > You've seen an "obese" coming out from McDonalds or similar with take
> > away bag full to the top?  How do you feel? S/he is taking care of
> > what ... the money all we pay to the health care system for her/his
> > treatments?
> 
> Chris Bannister writes:
> > I personally resent that.
> 
> Do you also resent people who engage in other dangerous hobbies?

I suggest you read what I wrote again, including the part you snipped.

-- 
"If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people
who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the 
oppressing." --- Malcolm X

Re: sexist content in the package openclipart2-png

[Martin Read]

On 06/01/16 10:00, Mart van de Wege wrote:

There is nothing wrong with trying to reach a reasonable accommodation
with people to make them feel more comfortable. The only argument
against OP is simply that you feel that they are not asking for a
*reasonable* accommodation. That can be debated, but a dismissive tone
like above does not come over like you're interested in actually
debating it.


To me, the OP doesn't seem to be asking for an "accommodation" at all, 
but rather for the images to be removed and similar material excluded 
from Debian in future.


Other parties in this thread are proposing accommodations such as 
"partition the package" or "whatever we do, can we at least get the 
images organized *usefully* so that we don't have to browse literally 
every subdirectory of this clipart collection to find the images we want?"

Re: sexist content in the package openclipart2-png

[Mart van de Wege]

Anders Andersson  writes:

> On Tue, Jan 5, 2016 at 2:21 AM, Joel Rees  wrote:
>> Others? You and I seem to have different ideas about what we want
>> children to find when they reach up on the family/school bookshelf.
>
> Please leave your children's upbringing out of our operating system.
> I'm not sure why you would have Debian's packages printed and on
> display in your bookshelf without scrutiny. As a parent, you know that
> it's your responsibility to limit their access to whatever your
> culture might find offensive, if you don't wish them to be exposed to
> that. On the school bookshelf I expect to find a good encyclopedia
> containing a lot more interesting images than what is available in the
> clip-art package, and if not, they can always turn to Wikipedia
> (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breast comes to mind).
>
> Hopefully no one will have to determine if a package is "child-safe"
> before accepting it into Debian. That would be a big can of worms to
> open.

But we already do so. The fortunes package has the sexually-oriented
jokes and the atheism aphorisms split out into the fortunes-off package,
because it is (rightly IMO) considered that people might take offense at
getting these randomly.

There is nothing wrong with trying to reach a reasonable accommodation
with people to make them feel more comfortable. The only argument
against OP is simply that you feel that they are not asking for a
*reasonable* accommodation. That can be debated, but a dismissive tone
like above does not come over like you're interested in actually
debating it.

Mart

-- 
"We will need a longer wall when the revolution comes."
--- AJS, quoting an uncertain source.

Re: sexist content in the package openclipart2-png

[Ron]

On Wed, 06 Jan 2016 09:36:58 +0100
deloptes  wrote:

> Start educating is what I want to say, start educating your children, and
> building up self protection. Believe me this is the only way you can
> protect them.

And that would start with educating the parents...
 
Cheers,
 
Ron.
-- 
 A fractal is by definition a set for which the Hausdorff Besicovitch
dimension strictly exceeds the topological dimension.
-- Mandelbrot

   -- http://www.olgiati-in-paraguay.org --
 

Re: sexist content in the package openclipart2-png

[Jonathan Dowland]

On Wed, Jan 06, 2016 at 09:36:58AM +0100, deloptes wrote:
> I would suggest all of you stop this discussion. It points to no where.

Your suggestion would carry more moral weight if you had followed your own
advice, rather than suffixing your opinion as if as some kind of definitive
coda.

Re: sexist content in the package openclipart2-png

[Jonathan Dowland]

On Wed, Jan 06, 2016 at 11:00:48AM +0100, Mart van de Wege wrote:
> Anders Andersson  writes:
> > Hopefully no one will have to determine if a package is "child-safe"
> > before accepting it into Debian. That would be a big can of worms to
> > open.
> 
> But we already do so. The fortunes package

The fortunes-off package is in Debian, and so was accepted. I have not
seen anyone seriously suggest that the clipart in question is removed
from Debian outright: the discussion seems to be around adding
categorisation, which IMHO would be useful for many more reasons than
just addressing this issue.


-- 
Jonathan Dowland

Re: sexist content in the package openclipart2-png

[John Hasler]

jdd writes:
> sexism - like describing women as men's toys should be prohibited
> (apart for historical work), and images may be such.

And disrespectful images of pasta should also be prohibited.
-- 
John Hasler 
jhas...@newsguy.com
Elmwood, WI USA

Re: sexist content in the package openclipart2-png

[jdd]

Le 06/01/2016 13:00, Martin Read a écrit :


To me, the OP doesn't seem to be asking for an "accommodation" at all,
but rather for the images to be removed and similar material excluded
from Debian in future.


sexism - like describing women as men's toys should be prohibited (apart 
for historical work), and images may be such. I didn't find the time to 
scan the opencliparts collection, but I very easily see what can be a 
problem.


Debian code of conduct (https://www.debian.org/code_of_conduct) do not 
speak of this aspect of the problem.


Fosdem one (https://fosdem.org/2016/practical/conduct/) is a bit more 
comprehensive, but not much


That said I see more and more in large meetings people asking against 
sexism that still shows in some diapos.


I also remember of discussions asking why there are so few women around, 
when they are more present in IT world...


it's mostly a matter of respect: do not blame somebody for his gender, 
religion or color (or anything else like fatness or dumbness...)


jdd

Re: sexist content in the package openclipart2-png

[Ric Moore]

On 01/06/2016 08:38 AM, John Hasler wrote:

jdd writes:

sexism - like describing women as men's toys should be prohibited
(apart for historical work), and images may be such.


And disrespectful images of pasta should also be prohibited.


We've already been through this loop with Supertuxkart, on the games 
list, where "Sara" was depicted wearing a Bikini in a beach scene. 
 "when a human body is "portrayed in a sexual manner (e.g., 
dressed in revealing clothing, with bodily postures or facial 
expressions that imply sexual readiness) and are objectified (e.g., used 
as a decorative object, or as body parts rather than a whole person)". 



To be blunt, it appears the call is for us to be in need of brain police 
"for the children" instead of a parent being responsible for their own 
policing what their children come in contact with. Otherwise, we accept 
liability for the content of packages and potentially might get sued 
over ANY lack of "due diligence". We would have to erase all images of 
children at play because they might incite some errant priest to act 
out. That is the thing, any attempt to censor anything not illegal is a 
slippery slope and best avoided or we accept liability. Ric





--
My father, Victor Moore (Vic) used to say:
"There are two Great Sins in the world...
..the Sin of Ignorance, and the Sin of Stupidity.
Only the former may be overcome." R.I.P. Dad.
http://linuxcounter.net/user/44256.html

Re: sexist content in the package openclipart2-png

[Martin Read]

On 06/01/16 14:53, deloptes wrote:

BTW a doctor dealing with overweight (political correct word) people stated,
most (90%) are fat because they have unhealthy life and food. All desieases
they have are a result of it. No one can escape causality. That's it! This
is not a blame. This is a fact. Period.


If you are committed to the truth (rather than merely the superficial 
facts), "90% of obese people are obese because they have an unhealthy 
lifestyle and diet" is nowhere near enough information, since it doesn't 
address why they have an unhealthy lifestyle and diet, and the glib 
answer (popular with people who want to deny obese people access to 
socialized medicine) "because they choose to" isn't *useful* in 
addressing the problem.

Re: sexist content in the package openclipart2-png

[Ron]

On Wed, 06 Jan 2016 15:53:14 +0100
deloptes  wrote:

>  dealing with overweight (political correct word) people 

Please: "ponderally challenged"...
 
Cheers,
 
Ron.
-- 
 Under capitalism, man exploits man.
   Under communism, it's just the opposite.
  -- J.K. Galbraith

   -- http://www.olgiati-in-paraguay.org --
 

Re: sexist content in the package openclipart2-png

[Joel Rees]

On Wed, Jan 6, 2016 at 6:11 PM, Renaud  OLGIATI
 wrote:
> On Wed, 06 Jan 2016 09:36:58 +0100
> deloptes  wrote:
>
>> Start educating is what I want to say, start educating your children, and
>> building up self protection. Believe me this is the only way you can
>> protect them.
>
> And that would start with educating the parents...
> [...]

For those of you who find the discussion more objectionable than the
images, I have four questions:

(1) Are you relying on the first image in the list, the face of a
reclining woman?

There are, in fact, cultures where the makeup an expression would
indicate a woman of a certain class, but, then again, there is
something discriminatory and repressive about accepting such opinions
as authoritative.

When I saw that image, I'll admit I was wondering whether the OP were
a sock puppet looking to generate some Streisand effect and a little
more user love for the package.

So I took a look to see if the package is worth using and I think it
probably is, in general.

(2) Are you basing your opinions only on the low resolution png images
in the debian directories Thomas Schmitt pointed out?

They are mostly a bit "cuter" at that resolution.

Which leads to the third question,

(3) Have you gone to the trouble of installing the openclipart2
package and looking at the svg images under the /usr/share/ so that
you can base your opinion on the actual contents?

(4) Aside from the copyright issues, would you be game for including
vectorized playboy centerfolds at full resolution in general clipart
packages for family and work?

-- 
Joel Rees

Be careful when you look at conspiracy.
Arm yourself with knowledge of yourself, as well:
http://reiisi.blogspot.jp/2011/10/conspiracy-theories.html

RE: sexist content in the package openclipart2-png

[Arno Schuring]

(yes, I know, old post, and offtopic. Still, pet peeve...)


> Date: Thu, 31 Dec 2015 11:25:55 -0800
> From: jr...@salford-systems.com
>
> [..] combined with a general contempt for women
> (beautiful or not) as weaklings and inferiors. Thus, while removing
> sexually provacative pictures from collections of clip art *might*
> discourage perverse sexual behavior to a very modest extent, it is
> unlikely to reduce the number of wife-beaters. Treating the latter and
> other bullies as the common criminals they are, and ceasing to make
> excuses for them (together with teaching boys from a young age to respect
> girls and women and protect them from violence) would do a lot more.

I don't think you can have it both ways. There is no way to combine the
perception of "women as weaklings and inferiors" with "teaching boys from
a young age to [protect] girls and women". If you do the latter, you
reinforce the former. Yes, teach boys to respect others. Teach girls the
same. But stop perpetuating the misguided idea that one gender is
reponsible (as either provider or protector) for the other.


Regards,
Arno

  

Re: sexist content in the package openclipart2-png

[jdd]

Le 06/01/2016 16:44, Charlie Kravetz a écrit :


Even if a doctor states 90% of obese people are that way due to an
unhealthy lifestyle, how do you, as an observer, determine who is in
that other 10%. There is no way to make that determination without
their health records. That is the truth.


and no reason to ask about that in the first place...

jdd

Re: sexist content in the package openclipart2-png

[Charlie Kravetz]

On Wed, 06 Jan 2016 15:53:14 +0100
deloptes  wrote:

>jdd wrote:
>
>> it's mostly a matter of respect: do not blame somebody for his gender,
>> religion or color (or anything else like fatness or dumbness...)
>
>I do not blame, I do ascertain something. And I do not understand the type
>of political correctness claimed around.
>If someone is fat, than s/he is fat. period. First of all s/he has to agree
>with it and admit it for her/his own good.
>BTW a doctor dealing with overweight (political correct word) people stated,
>most (90%) are fat because they have unhealthy life and food. All desieases
>they have are a result of it. No one can escape causality. That's it! This
>is not a blame. This is a fact. Period.
>
>Either one is committed to the truth or to the opposite. There is no in
>between, even if you use political correct words, it will not change the
>ontological truth. But I also do not see what this all has to do with the
>OPs desire to see the images removed. This is what buzzed me. People do not
>want to deal with issues, rather prohibit by low, which is not exactly good
>in all cases
>
>regards
>

Even if a doctor states 90% of obese people are that way due to an
unhealthy lifestyle, how do you, as an observer, determine who is in
that other 10%. There is no way to make that determination without
their health records. That is the truth.

-- 
Charlie Kravetz
Linux Registered User Number 425914
[http://linuxcounter.net/user/425914.html]
Never let anyone steal your DREAM.   [http://keepingdreams.com]

Re: sexist content in the package openclipart2-png

[Lisi Reisz]

On Wednesday 06 January 2016 15:45:22 Ric Moore wrote:
> > jdd writes:
> >> sexism - like describing women as men's toys should be prohibited
> >> (apart for historical work), and images may be such.
> >
> > And disrespectful images of pasta should also be prohibited.
>
> We've already been through this loop with Supertuxkart,

I don't remember Supertuxkart objectifying women to the extent of equating 
them with pasta. :-/

Lisi

Re: sexist content in the package openclipart2-png

[Matt Ventura]

On 01/05/2016 04:24 AM, Brad Rogers wrote:


On Tue, 5 Jan 2016 10:21:02 +0900
Joel Rees  wrote:

Hello Joel,


of the clipart out into a separate package so that a child looking for
a general image of a woman won't bump into a male sexual fantasy

Not aimed at any person, just observation.

By putting "sensitive" images in a separate package, one *highlights*
them, thus enabling those children one's intention it is to protect,
to find them a good deal more easily.  Whether that's preferable to
lumping the images in with a more generalised package is up for debate.

It's a two edged sword;  Damned if you do, and damned if you don't.
Either way, somebody gets upset/annoyed.   :-(


Yes, you might end up highlighting it, but what I assumed from the OP is
not that the children were looking for clipart packages, but rather
looking through clipart that the parent had already installed. So
separating it would still help in that situation.

If I were searching for inappropriate imagery, 'apt-cache search' is one
of the last places I'd look.

Matt

Re: sexist content in the package openclipart2-png

[Gene Heskett]

On Wednesday 06 January 2016 11:46:09 Lisi Reisz wrote:

> On Wednesday 06 January 2016 15:45:22 Ric Moore wrote:
> > > jdd writes:
> > >> sexism - like describing women as men's toys should be prohibited
> > >> (apart for historical work), and images may be such.
> > >
> > > And disrespectful images of pasta should also be prohibited.
> >
> > We've already been through this loop with Supertuxkart,
>
> I don't remember Supertuxkart objectifying women to the extent of
> equating them with pasta. :-/
>
> Lisi

Being a long term DM-II diabetic, I'd like to see any images of pasta, 
which I should not eat, excised from all of these image packages, 
thereby removing the temptation. :-]>

Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page 

Re: sexist content in the package openclipart2-png

[Brad Rogers]

On Tue, 5 Jan 2016 10:21:02 +0900
Joel Rees  wrote:

Hello Joel,

>of the clipart out into a separate package so that a child looking for
>a general image of a woman won't bump into a male sexual fantasy

Not aimed at any person, just observation.

By putting "sensitive" images in a separate package, one *highlights*
them, thus enabling those children one's intention it is to protect,
to find them a good deal more easily.  Whether that's preferable to
lumping the images in with a more generalised package is up for debate.

It's a two edged sword;  Damned if you do, and damned if you don't.
Either way, somebody gets upset/annoyed.   :-(

-- 
 Regards  _
 / )   "The blindingly obvious is
/ _)radnever immediately apparent"
The deadbeats and the dispossessed, the seekers of unlikeliness
Street Of Dreams - The Damned


pgp4LtS2AV0wV.pgp
Description: OpenPGP digital signature

Re: sexist content in the package openclipart2-png

[Joel Rees]

On Tue, Jan 5, 2016 at 9:24 PM, Brad Rogers  wrote:
> On Tue, 5 Jan 2016 10:21:02 +0900
> Joel Rees  wrote:
>
> Hello Joel,

Hello, Brad,

>>of the clipart out into a separate package so that a child looking for
>>a general image of a woman won't bump into a male sexual fantasy
>
> Not aimed at any person, just observation.
>
> By putting "sensitive" images in a separate package, one *highlights*
> them, thus enabling those children one's intention it is to protect,

Conflation on conflation -- Which children? What does protect mean?

> to find them a good deal more easily.

The children who go looking for them will find them anyway. In some
ways, it's better for them not to have reason to brag about how hard
they had to work to find them.

The way things are now with openclipart2, children -- and adults --
who aren't looking for that kind of thing will bump into it while
looking for something else. It's kind of like teenagers getting
together for a dance and somebody spiking the punch with vodka.

>  Whether that's preferable to
> lumping the images in with a more generalised package is up for debate.
>
> It's a two edged sword;  Damned if you do, and damned if you don't.
> Either way, somebody gets upset/annoyed.   :-(

Acknowledged.

But the problem with the debian openclipart2 package is precisely the
lack of organization.

You can't find wht you want without rifling through the lot, and you
end up finding lots of things you don't need, and some you really
didn't want. And you're not sure what you're going to see until you
see it. (Even using graphical editors, when you select the image to
open it, you see the preview.) And the file names help in some cases,
but don't help at all in others.

openclipart is much better indexed, but it needs help, too. Both
packages need crowd help to catalog the index -- sort, index, and
improve the descriptions.

I've been looking around the openclipart.org site, signed up, etc.,
but I haven't yet tried to contact the people who manage it to see if
they would be interested in direct help. I need to do that, and anyone
else interested could lend a hand, as well.

And maybe we need to file a bug about the images that started this
thread. I admit I'm not absolutely sure that's the best solution. But
the packages do need help, if anyone here can spare the time.

-- 
Joel Rees

Be careful when you look at conspiracy.
Arm yourself with knowledge of yourself, as well:
http://reiisi.blogspot.jp/2011/10/conspiracy-theories.html

Re: sexist content in the package openclipart2-png

[Joel Rees]

On Tue, Jan 5, 2016 at 9:53 PM, Anders Andersson  wrote:
> On Tue, Jan 5, 2016 at 2:21 AM, Joel Rees  wrote:
>> Others? You and I seem to have different ideas about what we want
>> children to find when they reach up on the family/school bookshelf.
>
> Please leave your children's upbringing out of our operating system.
> I'm not sure why you would have Debian's packages printed and on
> display in your bookshelf without scrutiny. As a parent, you know that
> it's your responsibility to limit their access to whatever your
> culture might find offensive, if you don't wish them to be exposed to
> that. On the school bookshelf I expect to find a good encyclopedia
> containing a lot more interesting images than what is available in the
> clip-art package, and if not, they can always turn to Wikipedia
> (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breast comes to mind).
>
> Hopefully no one will have to determine if a package is "child-safe"
> before accepting it into Debian. That would be a big can of worms to
> open.
>

Rather than argue with you here, I'll ask you to read my response to Brad.

-- 
Joel Rees

Be careful when you look at conspiracy.
Arm yourself with knowledge of yourself, as well:
http://reiisi.blogspot.jp/2011/10/conspiracy-theories.html

Re: sexist content in the package openclipart2-png

[Anders Andersson]

On Tue, Jan 5, 2016 at 2:21 AM, Joel Rees  wrote:
> Others? You and I seem to have different ideas about what we want
> children to find when they reach up on the family/school bookshelf.

Please leave your children's upbringing out of our operating system.
I'm not sure why you would have Debian's packages printed and on
display in your bookshelf without scrutiny. As a parent, you know that
it's your responsibility to limit their access to whatever your
culture might find offensive, if you don't wish them to be exposed to
that. On the school bookshelf I expect to find a good encyclopedia
containing a lot more interesting images than what is available in the
clip-art package, and if not, they can always turn to Wikipedia
(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breast comes to mind).

Hopefully no one will have to determine if a package is "child-safe"
before accepting it into Debian. That would be a big can of worms to
open.

Re: sexist content in the package openclipart2-png

[Joel Rees]

On Thu, Dec 31, 2015 at 10:10 PM, Thomas Schmitt  wrote:
> Hi,
>
> Fernando Arenas wrote:
>> have found in a package called
>> openclipart2 clipsarts clearly sexist content in which women are presented
>> as sex objects.
>
> I had a look at
>   https://sources.debian.net/src/openclipart2/2.0%2Bdfsg-1/clipart/
>
> Some of the images in your list are moderate male fantasy stereotypes
> but many of your complaints are about images which i'd expect in
> fashion magazines for women.
>
>
>> Only in Spain during 2015 male violence he has killed 62 women.
>
> The violent male is indeed a problem everywhere in the world.
> Protecting those who are peaceful is an obligation to everybody.
>
> Nevertheless i cannot make a connection between the images
> and violence or sexual offenses.
>
>
> As for flesh:
> Don't download whimsy clipart. Google for the real stuff.
>
>   https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francisco_Goya#Mid_period_.281793-1799.29
>   https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lawrence_Alma-Tadema#Move_to_England
>   https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fran%C3%A7ois_Boucher#Gallery
>   https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sandro_Botticelli
>   https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egon_Schiele#Figurative_works
>
>
> Have a nice day :)
>
> Thomas
>



-- 
Joel Rees

Be careful when you look at conspiracy.
Arm yourself with knowledge of yourself, as well:
http://reiisi.blogspot.jp/2011/10/conspiracy-theories.html

Re: sexist content in the package openclipart2-png

[Joel Rees]

On Sat, Jan 2, 2016 at 1:20 AM, Ric Moore  wrote:
> On 01/01/2016 04:47 AM, Joel Rees wrote:
>> The comment on facebook aside,   I looked at the first twenty or so
>> images in the list, and I agree that the general point of view is very
>> much one that treats people as objects. I would not want my children
>> finding those when looking for clipart.
>>
>> In my opinion, a complaint is justified here. Those should be sorted
>> out into a separate package, at minimum.
>
> I looked at the first 100 and found nothing meriting censorship. Ric

There were only 95 in the list the OP gave. FWIW.

I let you badger me into looking at the rest of them, and, I'll
acknowledge that some of the images in the list the OP gave are not
really offensive, particularly if taken alone.

Others? You and I seem to have different ideas about what we want
children to find when they reach up on the family/school bookshelf.

Censorship? I'm not suggesting burning bits here -- just moving some
of the clipart out into a separate package so that a child looking for
a general image of a woman won't bump into a male sexual fantasy
cartoon image of a woman giving him or her the come-on in moderately
graphic detail.

On a positive note, if you know where to avoid looking, the
openclipart packages have a lot of useful artwork, both for direct use
and for ideas to build on. Does need some more work on organization to
make what one is looking for easier to find.

-- 
Joel Rees

Re: sexist content in the package openclipart2-png

[Joel Rees]

On Thu, Dec 31, 2015 at 10:10 PM, Thomas Schmitt  wrote:
> Hi,
>
> Fernando Arenas wrote:
>> have found in a package called
>> openclipart2 clipsarts clearly sexist content in which women are presented
>> as sex objects.
>
> I had a look at
>   https://sources.debian.net/src/openclipart2/2.0%2Bdfsg-1/clipart/

I'm wondering whether you based your opinions on the low-resolution
thumbnails in the png directory there, or whether were able to display
the vector files in the svg directory.

> [...]

Responding to the rest of your comments and keeping it sort-of
on-topic to the lists will take some time I don't have, and some
off-topic thinking that would belong more in my blog, so I'll refrain
for now.

-- 
Joel Rees

Be careful when you look at conspiracy.
Arm yourself with knowledge of yourself, as well:
http://reiisi.blogspot.jp/2011/10/conspiracy-theories.html

Re: sexist content in the package openclipart2-png

[Tony van der Hoff]

On 02/01/16 08:52, Richard Hector wrote:
> 
> I'm also aware that the respondents to this thread so far appear to be
> (apologies if I'm mistaken) male; I'm not sure whether the women of
> the list have deliberately withheld comment?
> 
Well, I suspect that the more level-headed members of this list (and I
would most certainly include the females) have all withheld comment.

-- 
Tony van der Hoff  | mailto:t...@vanderhoff.org
Ariège, France |

Re: sexist content in the package openclipart2-png

[Mart van de Wege]

John Hasler  writes:

> peter write:
>> I'm confused what specifically is meriting censorship?
>
> Political incorrectness.

So when do we see your bugreport asking to merge fortunes-off into
fortunes?

Mart

-- 
"We will need a longer wall when the revolution comes."
--- AJS, quoting an uncertain source.

Re: sexist content in the package openclipart2-png

[tomas]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

On Sat, Jan 02, 2016 at 08:52:24PM +1300, Richard Hector wrote:

[...]

> I'm also aware that the respondents to this thread so far appear to be
> (apologies if I'm mistaken) male; I'm not sure whether the women of
> the list have deliberately withheld comment?

This is unfortunate. But given the tone of half of the thread here, I
was myself hesitant to even participate. I mean: one can agree with
the OP or disagree -- but the amount of unnecessary sarcasm on display
here can be... a bit off-putting.

There have been many very reasonable posts, though.

regards
- -- tomás
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Re: sexist content in the package openclipart2-png

[Ron]

> Chris Bannister writes:
> > Is sarcasm ever necessary? (BTW, I don't recall reading any.)  
> 
> I posted some.  And yes, it is sometimes justified.

He must have missed my reply, where I profusely thanked the original poster for 
the useful pointer he had given us  ;-3)
 
Cheers,
 
Ron.
-- 
  Does the name Pavlov ring a bell?

   -- http://www.olgiati-in-paraguay.org --
 

Re: sexist content in the package openclipart2-png

[Chris Bannister]

On Sat, Jan 02, 2016 at 08:37:12AM +0100, to...@tuxteam.de wrote:
> On Sat, Jan 02, 2016 at 08:52:24PM +1300, Richard Hector wrote:
> > I'm also aware that the respondents to this thread so far appear to be
> > (apologies if I'm mistaken) male; I'm not sure whether the women of
> > the list have deliberately withheld comment?
> 
> This is unfortunate. But given the tone of half of the thread here, I
> was myself hesitant to even participate. I mean: one can agree with
> the OP or disagree -- but the amount of unnecessary sarcasm on display
> here can be... a bit off-putting.

Is sarcasm ever necessary? (BTW, I don't recall reading any.)

-- 
"If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people
who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the 
oppressing." --- Malcolm X

Re: sexist content in the package openclipart2-png

[John Hasler]

Chris Bannister writes:
> Is sarcasm ever necessary? (BTW, I don't recall reading any.)

I posted some.  And yes, it is sometimes justified.
-- 
John Hasler 
jhas...@newsguy.com
Elmwood, WI USA

Re: sexist content in the package openclipart2-png

[Richard Hector]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA256

On 02/01/16 07:05, Martin Read wrote:
> On 01/01/16 17:47, Ric Moore wrote:
>> On 01/01/2016 11:23 AM, pe...@berghold.net wrote:
>>> I'm confused what specifically is meriting censorship?
>> 
>> I'm not seeing any full frontal nudity. Ric
> 
> An image can feature full frontal nudity without being an exercise
> in sexual objectification, and equally can be an exercise in
> sexual objectification without featuring full frontal nudity.
> 
> A reasonable person could certainly conclude that quite a few of
> the images specifically called out by the original poster in this
> thread fall into the latter category.
> 

I tend to agree. I assumed there was something in Debian's core
documents (social contract etc) about this, but couldn't find it. I
did find something about how everyone will be willingly accepted, but
that could be applied either way ...

I'm also aware that the respondents to this thread so far appear to be
(apologies if I'm mistaken) male; I'm not sure whether the women of
the list have deliberately withheld comment?

Richard

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Re: sexist content in the package openclipart2-png

[Charlie]

On Fri, 01 Jan 2016 22:22:13 +0100 deloptes sent:

> The only solution in my opinion is to explain and give a good example
> to the children for what is good and what is bad. Once they know it,
> they do not forget.

How often do the children see the worst sexism and other iniquities in
their home, where they are not recognised by the perpetrators?

Charlie

-- 
Registered Linux User:- 329524
***

Every generation laughs at the old fashions, but religiously
follows the new. Henry David Thoreau

***

Debian GNU/Linux - Magic indeed.

-

Re: sexist content in the package openclipart2-png

[Ric Moore]

On 01/01/2016 05:51 PM, Charlie wrote:

On Fri, 01 Jan 2016 22:22:13 +0100 deloptes sent:


The only solution in my opinion is to explain and give a good example
to the children for what is good and what is bad. Once they know it,
they do not forget.


How often do the children see the worst sexism and other iniquities in
their home, where they are not recognised by the perpetrators?


The DOJ stats claim about 90% of all offenses to children are committed 
by parents, family or friends of family.



--
My father, Victor Moore (Vic) used to say:
"There are two Great Sins in the world...
..the Sin of Ignorance, and the Sin of Stupidity.
Only the former may be overcome." R.I.P. Dad.
http://linuxcounter.net/user/44256.html

Re: sexist content in the package openclipart2-png

[John Hasler]

deloptes writes:
> I do not want our women to wear hijab, because someone could be
> affected when they show their neck, or chin. Following the OPs request
> we would end up there sooner or later.

Of course, the OP would probably want women to be forbidden to wear ha jib...
-- 
John Hasler 
jhas...@newsguy.com
Elmwood, WI USA

Re: sexist content in the package openclipart2-png

[Joel Rees]

Just for the record, in case the package maintainer or policy group
look at this thread hoping for representative opinions:

On Fri, Jan 1, 2016 at 5:31 AM, Gary Dale  wrote:
> On 31/12/15 03:10 PM, Gary Dale wrote:
>>
>> On 31/12/15 06:15 AM, Fernando Arenas wrote:
>>>
>>> First my sincere congratulations to the entire team that works every day
>>> to improve this wonderful operating system.
>>> The reason for writing to you is to have found in a package called
>>> openclipart2 clipsarts clearly sexist content in which women are presented
>>> as sex objects. So I ask you to withdraw these images and improve its
>>> protocols for such content is not put back into their servers.
>>> I hate that my children may find these images when they perform their
>>> work for the school.
>>> Only in Spain during 2015 male violence he has killed 62 women. Do not
>>> you contribute to promoting ideas about women favoring these behaviors.
>>>
>>> greetings from
>>> Fernando Arenas
>>>
>>> https://packages.debian.org/wheezy/all/openclipart2-png/filelist
>>> https://packages.debian.org/sid/all/openclipart2-png/filelist
>>
>>
>> I will note that the package is not available for Jessie or Stretch except
>> as a download from Sid.I gather the package maintainer has a problem with it
>> too. Perhaps the openclipart packages should be divided into categories
>> which would allow for more targeted downloads. People looking for animal
>> clipart, for example, may not want furniture clipart installed as well. This
>> would allow for "sexy-female" and "sexy-male" packages that aren't installed
>> except by explicit request.
>>
> My apologies for the above comment. Up until reading Fernando's post, I
> wasn't aware of openclipart2.

I personally see no reason for you to apologize for your suggestion.

It would take a bit of work, but non-programmers who want to help
could do a few at a time and it would help make openclipart2 more
useful for everyone.

One volunteer by him/herself would get worn out, yes, and I wouldn't
ask the package maintainer to categorize the whole list without help.

> I note that it is substantially larger than
> openclipart and is organized by contributor, not by topic.

And that makes it less useful than it would b if organized by topic.

It would have been nice if we had the contributors' opinions about the
categorization as a starting point, too, if I were making wishes.

> Following my
> suggestion would be hugely time consuming and achieve very little.

Strongly disagree. Clipart is only useful when you can find what you
are looking for.

> Looking at the images that were identified, I find little justification in
> the original complaint. One can easily accidentally stumble across far more
> provocative content on Facebook.
>

The comment on facebook aside, I looked at the first twenty or so
images in the list, and I agree that the general point of view is very
much one that treats people as objects. I would not want my children
finding those when looking for clipart.

In my opinion, a complaint is justified here. Those should be sorted
out into a separate package, at minimum.

-- 
Joel Rees

Ranting is free.
http://free-is-not-free.blogspot.jp/

Re: sexist content in the package openclipart2-png

[Lee Winter]

On Fri, Jan 1, 2016 at 1:05 PM, Martin Read  wrote:
> On 01/01/16 17:47, Ric Moore wrote:
>>
>> On 01/01/2016 11:23 AM, pe...@berghold.net wrote:
>>>
>>> I'm confused what specifically is meriting censorship?
>>
>>
>> I'm not seeing any full frontal nudity. Ric
>
>
> An image can feature full frontal nudity without being an exercise in sexual
> objectification, and equally can be an exercise in sexual objectification
> without featuring full frontal nudity.
>
> A reasonable person could certainly conclude that quite a few of the images
> specifically called out by the original poster in this thread
> fall into the latter category.

Actually that is incorrect.  All such conclusions rest on the
interpretation of the graphic, and interpretation is guided or even
controlled by the biases of the observer.  So objectification, like
beauty, lies in the eyes of the beholder.

So people who detect objectification in an arrangement of pixels
should be forbidden from interpreting imagery.  Such a policy is NOT
censorship -- it is more an exercise of preventive medicine.

One might as well object to the data downloaded on the basis that the
bits involved were recycled rather than fresh.  Prohibit images
composed of stale bits!  Not.

Lee Winter
Nashua, New Hampshire
United States of America

Re: sexist content in the package openclipart2-png

[Ric Moore]

On 01/01/2016 04:47 AM, Joel Rees wrote:
 I looked at the first twenty or so

images in the list, and I agree that the general point of view is very
much one that treats people as objects. I would not want my children
finding those when looking for clipart.

In my opinion, a complaint is justified here. Those should be sorted
out into a separate package, at minimum.


I looked at the first 100 and found nothing meriting censorship. Ric


--
My father, Victor Moore (Vic) used to say:
"There are two Great Sins in the world...
..the Sin of Ignorance, and the Sin of Stupidity.
Only the former may be overcome." R.I.P. Dad.
http://linuxcounter.net/user/44256.html

Re: sexist content in the package openclipart2-png

[Thomas Schmitt]

Hi,

pe...@berghold.net wrote:
> I'm confused what specifically is meriting censorship?

Article 5 Grundgesetz (that's our local constitition) says:
"No censorship happens."

Therefore it is forbidden to say that censorship happens.


Have a nice day :)

Thomas

Re: sexist content in the package openclipart2-png

[Ric Moore]

On 01/01/2016 11:23 AM, pe...@berghold.net wrote:

I'm confused what specifically is meriting censorship?


I'm not seeing any full frontal nudity. Ric

--
My father, Victor Moore (Vic) used to say:
"There are two Great Sins in the world...
..the Sin of Ignorance, and the Sin of Stupidity.
Only the former may be overcome." R.I.P. Dad.
http://linuxcounter.net/user/44256.html

Re: sexist content in the package openclipart2-png

[Martin Read]

On 01/01/16 17:47, Ric Moore wrote:

On 01/01/2016 11:23 AM, pe...@berghold.net wrote:

I'm confused what specifically is meriting censorship?


I'm not seeing any full frontal nudity. Ric


An image can feature full frontal nudity without being an exercise in 
sexual objectification, and equally can be an exercise in sexual 
objectification without featuring full frontal nudity.


A reasonable person could certainly conclude that quite a few of the 
images specifically called out by the original poster in this thread

fall into the latter category.

Re: sexist content in the package openclipart2-png

[peter]

I'm confused what specifically is meriting censorship?

Sent from my android device.

-Original Message-
From: Ric Moore <wayward4...@gmail.com>
To: debian-user@lists.debian.org
Sent: Fri, 01 Jan 2016 11:21
Subject: Re: sexist content in the package openclipart2-png

On 01/01/2016 04:47 AM, Joel Rees wrote:
  I looked at the first twenty or so
> images in the list, and I agree that the general point of view is very
> much one that treats people as objects. I would not want my children
> finding those when looking for clipart.
>
> In my opinion, a complaint is justified here. Those should be sorted
> out into a separate package, at minimum.

I looked at the first 100 and found nothing meriting censorship. Ric


-- 
My father, Victor Moore (Vic) used to say:
"There are two Great Sins in the world...
..the Sin of Ignorance, and the Sin of Stupidity.
Only the former may be overcome." R.I.P. Dad.
http://linuxcounter.net/user/44256.html

Re: sexist content in the package openclipart2-png

[John Hasler]

peter write:
> I'm confused what specifically is meriting censorship?

Political incorrectness.
-- 
John Hasler 
jhas...@newsguy.com
Elmwood, WI USA

Re: sexist content in the package openclipart2-png

[Terence]

Peter,

You shouldn't be confused: there will always be people of limited
intelligence and understanding who will find offence in any statement,
picture, opinion or attitude that does not conform to their severely
restricted mind-set.

There is nothing to be found on the internet that transcends the barbarity
of certain groups that rape , murder, mutilate and gloat over their
actions, and post their obscene videos to the world, to compare with the
images that are  complained about here.

Perhaps certain people need a reality check, and  professional
reorientation help to rejoin the real world.

Wishing you a happy new year, but doubting it will be, given the human
obstacles to progress,

Saki

On 1 January 2016 at 16:23, <pe...@berghold.net> wrote:

> I'm confused what specifically is meriting censorship?
>
> Sent from my android device.
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Ric Moore <wayward4...@gmail.com>
> To: debian-user@lists.debian.org
> Sent: Fri, 01 Jan 2016 11:21
> Subject: Re: sexist content in the package openclipart2-png
>
> On 01/01/2016 04:47 AM, Joel Rees wrote:
>   I looked at the first twenty or so
> > images in the list, and I agree that the general point of view is very
> > much one that treats people as objects. I would not want my children
> > finding those when looking for clipart.
> >
> > In my opinion, a complaint is justified here. Those should be sorted
> > out into a separate package, at minimum.
>
> I looked at the first 100 and found nothing meriting censorship. Ric
>
>
> --
> My father, Victor Moore (Vic) used to say:
> "There are two Great Sins in the world...
> ..the Sin of Ignorance, and the Sin of Stupidity.
> Only the former may be overcome." R.I.P. Dad.
> http://linuxcounter.net/user/44256.html
>
>

Re: sexist content in the package openclipart2-png

[Ron]

On Thu, 31 Dec 2015 12:15:01 +0100
Fernando Arenas  wrote:

> The reason for writing to you is to have found in a package called
> openclipart2 clipsarts clearly sexist content in which women are presented
> as sex objects. 

Thank you for the pointer, I'll install the package immediately, and enjoy a 
look at those pictures...
 
Cheers,
 
Ron.
-- 
   Paranoids are people, too; they have their own problems.
 It's easy to criticize, but if everybody hated you,
you'd be paranoid too.
  -- D.J. Hicks

   -- http://www.olgiati-in-paraguay.org --
 

Re: sexist content in the package openclipart2-png

[Thomas Schmitt]

Hi,

Fernando Arenas wrote:
> have found in a package called
> openclipart2 clipsarts clearly sexist content in which women are presented
> as sex objects.

I had a look at
  https://sources.debian.net/src/openclipart2/2.0%2Bdfsg-1/clipart/

Some of the images in your list are moderate male fantasy stereotypes
but many of your complaints are about images which i'd expect in
fashion magazines for women.


> Only in Spain during 2015 male violence he has killed 62 women.

The violent male is indeed a problem everywhere in the world.
Protecting those who are peaceful is an obligation to everybody.

Nevertheless i cannot make a connection between the images
and violence or sexual offenses.


As for flesh:
Don't download whimsy clipart. Google for the real stuff.

  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francisco_Goya#Mid_period_.281793-1799.29
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lawrence_Alma-Tadema#Move_to_England
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fran%C3%A7ois_Boucher#Gallery
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sandro_Botticelli
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egon_Schiele#Figurative_works


Have a nice day :)

Thomas

Re: sexist content in the package openclipart2-png

[David Baron]

My two cents (not worth very much nowadays, I am afraid):

I have not looked at the collections but like others, there simply have to be 
some girlie stuff, scantily clad beauties, ripped men, etc. I suppose these 
have place in clipart collections, someone might make use of them and not 
necessarily in harmful ways.

I would like to see all the sexist and sexy stuff de-emphasized.

I am more concerned about the ad-pictures that will adorn our technical sites 
(and I have complained about some of it). I am also concerned about the 
prevalence of foul language in a professional forum.

I think we can do better.

Re: sexist content in the package openclipart2-png

[Ric Moore]

On 12/31/2015 07:31 AM, Renaud (Ron) OLGIATI wrote:


Thank you for the pointer, I'll install the package immediately, and
enjoy a look at those pictures...

I'm on it too.
:0 Ric



--
My father, Victor Moore (Vic) used to say:
"There are two Great Sins in the world...
..the Sin of Ignorance, and the Sin of Stupidity.
Only the former may be overcome." R.I.P. Dad.
http://linuxcounter.net/user/44256.html

Re: sexist content in the package openclipart2-png

[Jerome BENOIT]

Hello Fernando:

I am not sure that the debian-user forum is the best place for your message:
what I mean is that you may want to target better. The debian-user forum is 
meant
for end users who are not responsible for the content of the packages.

First, you may want to make a bugreport for the package asking to drop off 
these images
or to at least put them in a separate package with an explicit name (or 
something).
Second, you may address the issue to the debian-policy forum.

hth,
Jerome


On 31/12/15 12:15, Fernando Arenas wrote:
> First my sincere congratulations to the entire team that works every day to 
> improve this wonderful operating system.
> The reason for writing to you is to have found in a package called 
> openclipart2 clipsarts clearly sexist content in which women are presented as 
> sex objects. So I ask you to withdraw these images and improve its protocols 
> for such content is not put back into their servers.
> I hate that my children may find these images when they perform their work 
> for the school.
> Only in Spain during 2015 male violence he has killed 62 women. Do not you 
> contribute to promoting ideas about women favoring these behaviors.
> 
> greetings from
> Fernando Arenas
> 
> https://packages.debian.org/wheezy/all/openclipart2-png/filelist
> https://packages.debian.org/sid/all/openclipart2-png/filelist
> 
> **
> 
> En primer lugar mi mas sincera felicitación al todo el equipo que cada día 
> trabaja para mejorar este magnifico sistema operativo.
> El motivo de dirigirme a ustedes es por haber encontrado en el paquete 
> openclipart2 unos clipsarts de contenido claramente machista en los que se 
> presenta a la mujer como objeto sexual. Por lo que quiero pedirles que 
> retiren estas imágenes y que mejoren sus protocolos para que contenidos de 
> este tipo no se vuelvan a incluir en sus servidores.
> No es agradable comprobar que mis hijos pueden encontrar estas imágenes 
> cuando realizan su trabajo para el colegio.
> Solo en España durante 2015 la violencia machista ha asesinado a 62 mujeres. 
> No contribuyan ustedes a fomentar ideas sobre la mujer que favorecen estos 
> comportamientos.
> 
> Saludos
> Fernando Arenas
> 
> https://packages.debian.org/wheezy/all/openclipart2-png/filelist
> https://packages.debian.org/sid/all/openclipart2-png/filelist
> 
> **
> **
> 
> /usr/share/openclipart2/png/gustavorezende/gustavorezende_Woman.png
> /usr/share/openclipart2/png/gustavorezende/gustavorezende_Woman_10.png
> /usr/share/openclipart2/png/gustavorezende/gustavorezende_Woman_11.png
> /usr/share/openclipart2/png/gustavorezende/gustavorezende_Woman_12.png
> /usr/share/openclipart2/png/gustavorezende/gustavorezende_Woman_13.png
> /usr/share/openclipart2/png/gustavorezende/gustavorezende_Woman_14.png
> /usr/share/openclipart2/png/gustavorezende/gustavorezende_Woman_15.png
> /usr/share/openclipart2/png/gustavorezende/gustavorezende_Woman_16.png
> /usr/share/openclipart2/png/gustavorezende/gustavorezende_Woman_17.png
> /usr/share/openclipart2/png/gustavorezende/gustavorezende_Woman_18.png
> /usr/share/openclipart2/png/gustavorezende/gustavorezende_Woman_19.png
> /usr/share/openclipart2/png/gustavorezende/gustavorezende_Woman_2.png
> /usr/share/openclipart2/png/gustavorezende/gustavorezende_Woman_20.png
> /usr/share/openclipart2/png/gustavorezende/gustavorezende_Woman_3.png
> /usr/share/openclipart2/png/gustavorezende/gustavorezende_Woman_4.png
> /usr/share/openclipart2/png/gustavorezende/gustavorezende_Woman_5.png
> /usr/share/openclipart2/png/gustavorezende/gustavorezende_Woman_6.png
> /usr/share/openclipart2/png/gustavorezende/gustavorezende_Woman_7.png
> /usr/share/openclipart2/png/gustavorezende/gustavorezende_Woman_8.png
> /usr/share/openclipart2/png/gustavorezende/gustavorezende_Woman_9.png
> 
> /usr/share/openclipart2/png/grimgiant/grimgiant_nude_woman.png
> /usr/share/openclipart2/png/grimgiant/grimgiant_nude_woman_on_bed.png
> 
> /usr/share/openclipart2/png/juanmontoya/juanmontoya_lingerie_(see_png).png
> 
> /usr/share/openclipart2/png/kaeso/kaeso_Girls_rule_.png
> /usr/share/openclipart2/png/kaeso/kaeso_Toilet_sign.png
> 
> /usr/share/openclipart2/png/dodom01/dodom01_women_from_above.png
> 
> /usr/share/openclipart2/png/gopher/gopher_Pink_anime_girl_(beta_).png
> 
> /usr/share/openclipart2/png/molumen/molumen_Naked_girl.png
> /usr/share/openclipart2/png/molumen/molumen_Naked_girl_1.png
> 
> /usr/share/openclipart2/png/momoko/momoko_Silhouette_of_Stripper_on_a_Pole.png
> 
> 
> /usr/share/openclipart2/png/nicubunu/nicubunu_Woman_Silhouette_01.png
> /usr/share/openclipart2/png/nicubunu/nicubunu_Woman_Silhouette_02.png
> /usr/share/openclipart2/png/nicubunu/nicubunu_Woman_Silhouette_03.png
> /usr/share/openclipart2/png/nicubunu/nicubunu_Woman_Silhouette_04.png
> 

Re: sexist content in the package openclipart2-png

[Martin Read]

On 31/12/15 12:21, deloptes wrote:

Fernando Arenas wrote:


openclipart2


so which one is bugging you?


There's a list at the end of the OP.

I don't agree that any of the images on that list need to be removed 
from Debian for the reasons stated by the OP (I can't comment on whether 
they constitute policy violations for other reasons such as non-free 
licences or unclear copyright status), but for most of the images on 
that list I can certainly imagine a reasonable person concluding that 
their inclusion in Debian is problematic, and I wouldn't encourage most 
of them to be added to Debian if they weren't already there.

Re: sexist content in the package openclipart2-png

[Gary Dale]

On 31/12/15 06:15 AM, Fernando Arenas wrote:
First my sincere congratulations to the entire team that works every 
day to improve this wonderful operating system.
The reason for writing to you is to have found in a package called 
openclipart2 clipsarts clearly sexist content in which women are 
presented as sex objects. So I ask you to withdraw these images and 
improve its protocols for such content is not put back into their servers.
I hate that my children may find these images when they perform their 
work for the school.
Only in Spain during 2015 male violence he has killed 62 women. Do not 
you contribute to promoting ideas about women favoring these behaviors.


greetings from
Fernando Arenas

https://packages.debian.org/wheezy/all/openclipart2-png/filelist
https://packages.debian.org/sid/all/openclipart2-png/filelist


I will note that the package is not available for Jessie or Stretch 
except as a download from Sid.I gather the package maintainer has a 
problem with it too. Perhaps the openclipart packages should be divided 
into categories which would allow for more targeted downloads. People 
looking for animal clipart, for example, may not want furniture clipart 
installed as well. This would allow for "sexy-female" and "sexy-male" 
packages that aren't installed except by explicit request.

Re: sexist content in the package openclipart2-png

[Javier Barroso]

Hello,

On Thu, Dec 31, 2015 at 12:15 PM, Fernando Arenas  wrote:
> First my sincere congratulations to the entire team that works every day to
> improve this wonderful operating system.
> The reason for writing to you is to have found in a package called
> openclipart2 clipsarts clearly sexist content in which women are presented
> as sex objects. So I ask you to withdraw these images and improve its
> protocols for such content is not put back into their servers.
> I hate that my children may find these images when they perform their work
> for the school.
> Only in Spain during 2015 male violence he has killed 62 women. Do not you
> contribute to promoting ideas about women favoring these behaviors.
>
> greetings from
> Fernando Arenas
>
> https://packages.debian.org/wheezy/all/openclipart2-png/filelist
> https://packages.debian.org/sid/all/openclipart2-png/filelist

As workaround, you can create a dpkg config file on
/etc/dpkg/dpkg.cfg.d/ (maybe called openclipart2-exclusions)  with:

path-exclude /usr/share/openclipart2/png/gustavorezende/gustavorezende_Wom*
path-exclude /usr/share/openclipart2/png/

Then do apt-get --reinstall install openclipart2  , and files listed
there should not be installed

Regards

Re: sexist content in the package openclipart2-png

[John L. Ries]

I was going to respond to the original post privately, as my thoughts are 
off topic, but at this point, I think I need to do it publicly.


While pornography and its attendant portrayal of women, children, and even 
men as sex objects encourage all manner of perverse behaviors, I don't 
that think non-sexual abuse of women by men is one of them (it's not like 
readers of "Playgirl" are thought to be more inclined to commit violence 
against men than others).  Rather, the latter appears to be more related 
to cultural attitudes that glorify bullying and physical punishment of 
perceived slights as "manly", and despise appeals to reason and compassion 
as weak and effeminate; combined with a general contempt for women 
(beautiful or not) as weaklings and inferiors.  Thus, while removing 
sexually provacative pictures from collections of clip art *might* 
discourage perverse sexual behavior to a very modest extent, it is 
unlikely to reduce the number of wife-beaters.  Treating the latter and 
other bullies as the common criminals they are, and ceasing to make 
excuses for them (together with teaching boys from a young age to respect 
girls and women and protect them from violence) would do a lot more.


--|
John L. Ries  |
Salford Systems   |
Phone: (619)543-8880 x107 |
or (435)867-8885  |
--|


On Thu, 31 Dec 2015, John Hasler wrote:


Javier Barroso writes:

As workaround, you can create a dpkg config file on
/etc/dpkg/dpkg.cfg.d/ (maybe called openclipart2-exclusions)  with:



path-exclude /usr/share/openclipart2/png/gustavorezende/gustavorezende_Wom*
path-exclude /usr/share/openclipart2/png/



Then do apt-get --reinstall install openclipart2 , and files listed
there should not be installed


But that does not achieve the OP's goal, which is to prevent anyone from
installing those files.

Perhaps the OP should create openclipart2forprudes and try to get it
packaged.
--
John Hasler
jhas...@newsguy.com
Elmwood, WI USA

Re: sexist content in the package openclipart2-png

[John Hasler]

Javier Barroso writes:
> As workaround, you can create a dpkg config file on
> /etc/dpkg/dpkg.cfg.d/ (maybe called openclipart2-exclusions)  with:

> path-exclude /usr/share/openclipart2/png/gustavorezende/gustavorezende_Wom*
> path-exclude /usr/share/openclipart2/png/

> Then do apt-get --reinstall install openclipart2 , and files listed
> there should not be installed

But that does not achieve the OP's goal, which is to prevent anyone from
installing those files.

Perhaps the OP should create openclipart2forprudes and try to get it
packaged.
-- 
John Hasler 
jhas...@newsguy.com
Elmwood, WI USA

Re: sexist content in the package openclipart2-png

[Gary Dale]

On 31/12/15 03:10 PM, Gary Dale wrote:

On 31/12/15 06:15 AM, Fernando Arenas wrote:
First my sincere congratulations to the entire team that works every 
day to improve this wonderful operating system.
The reason for writing to you is to have found in a package called 
openclipart2 clipsarts clearly sexist content in which women are 
presented as sex objects. So I ask you to withdraw these images and 
improve its protocols for such content is not put back into their 
servers.
I hate that my children may find these images when they perform their 
work for the school.
Only in Spain during 2015 male violence he has killed 62 women. Do 
not you contribute to promoting ideas about women favoring these 
behaviors.


greetings from
Fernando Arenas

https://packages.debian.org/wheezy/all/openclipart2-png/filelist
https://packages.debian.org/sid/all/openclipart2-png/filelist


I will note that the package is not available for Jessie or Stretch 
except as a download from Sid.I gather the package maintainer has a 
problem with it too. Perhaps the openclipart packages should be 
divided into categories which would allow for more targeted downloads. 
People looking for animal clipart, for example, may not want furniture 
clipart installed as well. This would allow for "sexy-female" and 
"sexy-male" packages that aren't installed except by explicit request.


My apologies for the above comment. Up until reading Fernando's post, I 
wasn't aware of openclipart2. I note that it is substantially larger 
than openclipart and is organized by contributor, not by topic. 
Following my suggestion would be hugely time consuming and achieve very 
little.


Looking at the images that were identified, I find little justification 
in the original complaint. One can easily accidentally stumble across 
far more provocative content on Facebook.