Re: OT: Top Posting
On 5/15/24 10:50, Nicolas George wrote: Cindy Sue Causey (12024-05-15): PS Afterthought is that email signatures are another of that widely accepted netiquette set of standards. You can add the “Re: ” to that list. It is the sequence of four octets 0x52, 0x65, 0x3a, 0x20, and nothing else. The MUAs who write “RE: ” are wrong. The MUAs who write “Re : ” are wrong. The MUAs who write “AW: ” are wrong. The MUAs who put it in base64 are wrong. It is not a string that is designed to be internationalized, we cannot expect every MUA to know every stupid local or vanity variant of “Re: ”. + 5, Excellent point Nicolas The same can be said for sig separators. One fellow here has it as part of his sig but his definition in his sig is incomplete. Its actually an lf,dash,dash,space.lf ignoring the comma's I used here..Some email agents won't use it as a sig separator w/o the full lf's as wrapper. cr's are not valid subs for the lf's.. Regards, Take care & stay well Nicolas. Cheers, Gene Heskett, CET. -- "There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order." -Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940) If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable. - Louis D. Brandeis
Re: OT: Top Posting
On 5/15/24 6:46 AM, Cindy Sue Causey wrote: . . . No its not, its your refusal to use the down arrow in your reply editor to put your reply after the question. It really is that simple. If your choice of email agents cannot do that, its time to switch to an agent that can. There are dozens of them. . . . Actually, it isn't necessarily the user's fault. Thanks to the "business standard," (and think about the initials) of top-posting over the complete, unpared quote of the entire thread, there are an awful lot of email readers (and especially webmail interfaces) that make it difficult to follow any other convention, and a few that make it damn-near impossible. Just as there are an awful lot that make it difficult or impossible to send a plain-text email. Incidentally, regarding the Hollerith card origins of the 80-column standard, the very first Hollerith cards, from the 1890 U.S. Census, had 24 columns and 12 rows of round holes, and were punched with a pantograph punch. In 1928, IBM introduced rectangular holes, in an 80-column, 10-row format, later expanded to 12 rows. -- JHHL
Re: OT: Top Posting
Since my request started this offtopic subthread I hope I can put it to rest. Yes I requested to not toppost. I asked politely, and I added pertinent response on topic. I do not claim to be right or wrong about this. I prefer interleaved style for reason. Everyone on this list heard all arguments pro and con in previous discussions, and there is no need to repeat them. It is a matter of personal choice though I have to admit I feel a bit emboldened by the posting guidelines. And in my experience a polite question goes a long way with most civilized people. You can ignore my request, well you even ask me to toppost. I will ignore it. There is no need for a lecture, you have no claim to right or wrong either. Claiming a de facto industry standard (I avoided the literally sidebar here) on majority is a questionable argument. Large numbers do not make right. There are many examples where the majority is wrong. Well I go along with majority practice knowing they are wrong, just to make life easier. I try not to yell at people though for choosing differently. And it is questionable to get you anywhere anytime fast. And I do not like that Gene was called an "epitome of humanity" in a cynical way and I earned a hypocrite long after I copped out of that discussion. Please let this rest. -H -- Henning Follmann | hfollm...@itcfollmann.com
Re: OT: Top Posting
Cindy Sue Causey (12024-05-15): > PS Afterthought is that email signatures are another of that widely > accepted netiquette set of standards. You can add the “Re: ” to that list. It is the sequence of four octets 0x52, 0x65, 0x3a, 0x20, and nothing else. The MUAs who write “RE: ” are wrong. The MUAs who write “Re : ” are wrong. The MUAs who write “AW: ” are wrong. The MUAs who put it in base64 are wrong. It is not a string that is designed to be internationalized, we cannot expect every MUA to know every stupid local or vanity variant of “Re: ”. Regards, -- Nicolas George
Re: OT: Top Posting
On 5/15/24 10:06, Nicolas George wrote: Cindy Sue Causey (12024-05-15): Best as I was able to discern from the Net [0], 72 characters is the magic number for line length because 4 extra characters are added to both ends when e.g. git processes submissions. Makes good common sense to me. Git is an order of magnitude younger than the limit at 72 characters. PS I thought it was 80. Guess it was about those extra 8 characters. It is 80 but you anticipate that people will be adding “> ” in front of your lines. "Pretty well agreed upon..." That's implying that unspoken list standards are really not users "picking on each other." Listserv standards is a concept that has evolved over decades for rational reasons as Developer and User communications evolved. Indeed. It's easy to mess up badly while moving emails around As a general rule, GUIs suck at anything but trivial tasks. Evolution appears to do some form of maybe symlinking instead of downloading so everything is available almost immediately seconds after the first time Evolution is ever fired up. The IMAP protocol is designed to let us manipulate mails directly on the server without downloading the bulk of them. A lot of GUI MUA are still designed around the old paradigm where mails are downloaded, and turned it into some kind of cache: it rarely works well. Manipulate mails directly on the server. Have a backup. If your server is often down and accessing the mails is urgent, have a local *copy* of it. reach back a limited time span into history before I a-sume Gmail cut off access to touching older emails. If you want mail that works well, start by avoiding services meant for the lowest common denominator of the general public. Regards, I'll add that googles gmail, written by former outlook developers is the biggest pita to ever hit the net. They break every rfc that can. Cheers, Gene Heskett, CET. -- "There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order." -Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940) If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable. - Louis D. Brandeis
Re: OT: Top Posting
On Wed, May 15, 2024 at 09:46:08AM -0400, Cindy Sue Causey wrote: > Best as I was able to discern from the Net [0], 72 characters is the > magic number for line length because 4 extra characters are added to > both ends when e.g. git processes submissions. Makes good common sense > to me. > > PS I thought it was 80. Guess it was about those extra 8 characters. For many decades, there was an industry standard that lines of text should be up to 80 characters wide. Punch cards were 80 characters wide, for example. I don't know whether punch cards were the *first* place it appeared, but they're the first I'm aware of. A lot of the printers from the last century allowed 80 characters per line on standard US 8.5x11 inch paper. I'm not sure if teletypes used 80-column paper, or 133-column paper (green bar), or a mixture. Later, we got terminals. A typical ASCII terminal (a physical one, like a DEC VT-100) is 80x24 characters, or sometimes 80x25. The 80-character line standard continued. When hardware evolved and most of us started using X11 or similar GUI interfaces, terminal emulators became the norm. xterm and other software terminal emulators use an 80x24 window as the default, for compatibility with physical terminals. When writing code in most programming languages, there are style guides that still suggest sticking to 80-character lines whenever possible. It avoids line wrapping when being read in an 80-character terminal, and besides that, really long lines of code are harder to read than shorter lines. When it comes to email or Usenet, though, the 72-character suggestion is meant to allow a bit of room for quoting markup. If I write a 79-character line of text, and then you reply to it with "> " in front, the resulting 81-character line of text either gets wrapped or truncated. Limiting yourself to 72-character lines allows a few levels of quoting before the text becomes unreadable. This is why the 72-character limit is just a suggestion, not a hard requirement. If you write lines that are 74 characters wide, probably nobody's going to care. The goal is simply to make it easy to carry on a conversation.
Re: OT: Top Posting
-Original Message- From: Greg Wooledge To: debian-user@lists.debian.org Subject: Re: OT: Top Posting Date: 05/14/24 13:41:17 On Tue, May 14, 2024 at 05:01:31PM +, fxkl4...@protonmail.com wrote: > how many times has this top post crap been dug up > don't y'all have any thing better to do It's never going to stop. We have a clash of two cultures here. The first culture are Unix users who grew up with Internet email and Usenet news. For people in this culture, there is a well-defined set of "netiquette" rules -- plain text messages, inline quoting with "> " citation characters, lines limited to ~72 characters, etc. Too funny for words! Make that twice now that I've seen line length mentioned here on Debian in over a decade++. I also referenced the inline quoting method since my new chosen email software appears to be failing with its default on that feature. Will try AGAIN to fix that as soon as I hit "Send" here BECAUSE tech reply emails are difficult to follow without those stacked ">" over ">>" pointers attached showing who said what when. And, yeah, netiquette, that's the word echoed across the Internet. I totally forgot that in my own response. It's not users picking on each other. It's a respectful "virtual handshake approved" set of standards with the straightforward purpose of putting everyone on as close to the same page as is humanly possible. PS Afterthought is that email signatures are another of that widely accepted netiquette set of standards. I consciously altered mine many years ago after reading about that, most likely also here on Debian- User. Might have been over on W3C, too, now that I think about it. That's where I first heard of Linux circa 1999. W3C's Linux reference was about installing HTML validators locally, and the rest is terminal command line history. Thank you, Developers! What you all do and that works so near flawlessly in nanoseconds still.. blows my mind to this.. second. Watching daily upgrades methodically unfold as each package successfully coordinates its place in line with the others is pure magic. :) Cindy :) -- Talking Rock, Pickens County, North Georgia * runs with birdseed! *
Re: OT: Top Posting
Cindy Sue Causey (12024-05-15): > Best as I was able to discern from the Net [0], 72 characters is the > magic number for line length because 4 extra characters are added to > both ends when e.g. git processes submissions. Makes good common sense > to me. Git is an order of magnitude younger than the limit at 72 characters. > PS I thought it was 80. Guess it was about those extra 8 characters. It is 80 but you anticipate that people will be adding “> ” in front of your lines. > "Pretty well agreed upon..." That's implying that unspoken list > standards are really not users "picking on each other." Listserv > standards is a concept that has evolved over decades for rational > reasons as Developer and User communications evolved. Indeed. > It's easy to mess up badly while moving emails around As a general rule, GUIs suck at anything but trivial tasks. > Evolution appears to do some form of maybe symlinking instead of > downloading so everything is available almost immediately seconds after > the first time Evolution is ever fired up. The IMAP protocol is designed to let us manipulate mails directly on the server without downloading the bulk of them. A lot of GUI MUA are still designed around the old paradigm where mails are downloaded, and turned it into some kind of cache: it rarely works well. Manipulate mails directly on the server. Have a backup. If your server is often down and accessing the mails is urgent, have a local *copy* of it. > reach back a limited time span into history before I a-sume Gmail cut > off access to touching older emails. If you want mail that works well, start by avoiding services meant for the lowest common denominator of the general public. Regards, -- Nicolas George
Re: OT: Top Posting
-Original Message- From: gene heskett To: debian-user@lists.debian.org Subject: Re: OT: Top Posting Date: 05/14/24 10:54:50 On 5/14/24 10:09, Richard wrote: Just because something isn't an official ISO standard doesn't mean it's not standard behavior. And how it relates to this mailing list? It's called a setting. No its not, its your refusal to use the down arrow in your reply editor to put your reply after the question. It really is that simple. If your choice of email agents cannot do that, its time to switch to an agent that can. There are dozens of them. DISCLAIMER: I just realized above portion might not quote properly. My apologies in advance if it does not. That's one glitch I haven't located a fix for, yet. The rest of the email: I think Evolution has finally fixed my own latest issues with tech reply emails just since Gmail forced all users onto its more dynamic release. My biggest issue is, hopefully "was," line length. This email is only my second reply sent in maybe 2 months so am about to find out how things are progressing. Accidentally just this second was reminded there's a setting for avoiding top posting by lunging to bottom of reply emails. That setting is found by going through the now classic 3-line settings "hamburger" then: Edit > Preferences > Composer Preferences > General (tab) There's a simple toggle on/off checkbox that says, "Start typing at the bottom." The setting for word wrapping is just a few lines above that. Regarding line length (word wrapping), that's an even less spoken "standard" that has merit at its base. I think I've seen it mentioned maybe one time in more than a decade++ on Debian. That "standard" is about usability.. readability.. aka conscious consideration for fellow list members. Best as I was able to discern from the Net [0], 72 characters is the magic number for line length because 4 extra characters are added to both ends when e.g. git processes submissions. Makes good common sense to me. PS I thought it was 80. Guess it was about those extra 8 characters. Or.. Maybe whoever I saw write that over ten years ago almost understood that "handshake standard" but not quite. That's one scary part of trusting strangers on the WWW. :) Again back to the concept of tech listserv standards, the source I'm referencing after randomly finding it via search this morning says, "The 50/72 Rule is a set of standards that are pretty well agreed upon in the industry to standardize the format of commit messages." "Pretty well agreed upon..." That's implying that unspoken list standards are really not users "picking on each other." Listserv standards is a concept that has evolved over decades for rational reasons as Developer and User communications evolved. Am not embarrassed to say Evolution has kicked my backside k/t its learning curve versus a user's level of cognitive ability. This experience ended up touching on "frightening" a couple times, e.g. I sent 2,000 online emails to (online) trash when that was not intended. It's easy to mess up badly while moving emails around between desktop folders because that activity directly affects the linked online email provider if a user approves those access permissions. For what it's worth as a huge selling point for me, I have a massive online email account. There are hundreds of thousands of emails from the last 20 years. Evolution said whatever, bring it on. Evolution appears to do some form of maybe symlinking instead of downloading so everything is available almost immediately seconds after the first time Evolution is ever fired up. Other email software I've used only seems to work by downloading. That difference is huge for anyone using a data download limiting Internet provider. NOTE: Evolution appears to possibly offer related tweaking if one prefers working offline. In the other email software cases I attempted, the software could only reach back a limited time span into history before I a-sume Gmail cut off access to touching older emails. If there's a work-around for that, I never found it. I simply (and immediately) purged the email software, instead. With Evolution, I'm instantly looking at emails I haven't seen in ~20 years. I was having a horrible time accessing those same emails in Gmail itself online. Talk about mind blowing nostalgia overload... Cindy :) [0] https://dev.to/noelworden/improving-your-commit-message-with-the-50-72-rule-3g79 -- Talking Rock, Pickens County, North Georgia * runs with birdseed! *
Markup in mail messages (was: Re: OT: Top Posting)
On 15/05/2024 02:32, Greg Wooledge wrote: On Tue, May 14, 2024 at 08:16:20PM +0200, Nicolas George wrote: Messages in Markdown in the Windows world? I have never seen it. [...] The only sensible interpretation I can come up with for why these asterisks were added is that they're being placed around text that's supposed to be emphasized/italicized. *Bold*, /italics/, and _underlined_ markup is supported by various mailers, e.g. Thunderbird and Gnus. Some render superscripts^1 and subscripts_2 as well. Backticks (`echo $PATH`) are more specific to markdown. However sometimes I use them not expecting that the message will be rendered as markdown. Just to avoid ambiguity where a piece of code starts and ends.
Re: OT: Top Posting
On Tue, May 14, 2024 at 6:05 PM Jeffrey Walton wrote: > > > On Tue, May 14, 2024 at 2:40 PM Richard wrote: > >> You really must think of yourself as being the epitome of human creation. >> I don't see any use in continuing this nonsense. If you don't have anything >> relevant to say, this case is closed for me. >> > > Who are you talking about? There are two people in the reply below. > Gene IS the epitome of human creation. > >> Am Di., 14. Mai 2024 um 16:55 Uhr schrieb gene heskett < >> ghesk...@shentel.net>: >> >>> On 5/14/24 10:09, Richard wrote: >>> > Just because something isn't an official ISO standard doesn't mean >>> it's >>> > not standard behavior. And how it relates to this mailing list? It's >>> > called a setting. >>> > >>> No its not, its your refusal to use the down arrow in your reply editor >>> to put your reply after the question. It really is that simple. If your >>> choice of email agents cannot do that, its time to switch to an agent >>> that can. There are dozens of them. >>> >>> > Am Di., 14. Mai 2024 um 15:57 Uhr schrieb Loris Bennett >>> > mailto:loris.benn...@fu-berlin.de>>: >>> > >>> > Hi Richard, >>> > >>> > Richard mailto:rrosn...@gmail.com>> writes: >>> > >>> > > "Top posting" (writing the answer above the text that's being >>> replied >>> > > to) is literally industry standard behavior. >>> > >>> > Can you provide a link to the standard you are referring to? >>> > >>> > Assuming such a standard exists, how would it apply to this >>> newsgroup? >>> > >>> > [snip (51 lines)] >>> > >>> > Cheers, >>> > >>> > Loris >>> >>> Cheers, Gene Heskett, CET. >>> >>
Re: OT: Top Posting
On Tue, 14 May 2024, Andy Smith wrote: > Hello, > > On Tue, May 14, 2024 at 05:01:31PM +, fxkl4...@protonmail.com wrote: >> don't y'all have any thing better to do > > You must be new here. sorta i've only been using versions of linux since the early 90's :) downloaded it from an archie server on to 2 floppies > > Get used to reading with a "mark thread read" key in your MUA of > choice, is my best advice. i've got to admit to being weak reading the brilliant and riveting prose is addictive and entertainment is in short supply around here especially after the chickens go to bed > > Thanks, > Andy > > -- > https://bitfolk.com/ -- No-nonsense VPS hosting >
Re: OT: Top Posting
Hello, On Tue, May 14, 2024 at 05:01:31PM +, fxkl4...@protonmail.com wrote: > don't y'all have any thing better to do You must be new here. Get used to reading with a "mark thread read" key in your MUA of choice, is my best advice. Thanks, Andy -- https://bitfolk.com/ -- No-nonsense VPS hosting
Re: OT: Top Posting
Greg Wooledge wrote: > In this particular instance, we've got a person from the second > culture who seems to have no idea that other cultures exist, or that > a mailing list might not adhere to their own expectations. This > person is acting belligerantly, and will not listen to gentle > reminders. There's another point that this person doesn't seem to realize, which is that he's the one asking for help, and so he should be making efforts to adapt to the desires of those he wishes to help him, rather than trying to insist they adapt to his ways :( But there's a noticeably slower response to his posts now, so maybe he'll learn by experience.
Re: OT: Top Posting
On Tue, May 14, 2024 at 08:16:20PM +0200, Nicolas George wrote: > Messages in Markdown in the Windows world? I have never seen it. I can't be sure where they're coming from exactly, but every once in a while I see messages on debian-user, bug-bash or help-bash which have extra asterisk characters scattered throughout them (usually make the code samples break). The only sensible interpretation I can come up with for why these asterisks were added is that they're being placed around text that's supposed to be emphasized/italicized. When reading the message with the idea that "this might be markdown text" in mind, it's possible to guess, in most cases, which asterisks should be removed to render the code samples or terminal session pastes correct.
Re: OT: Top Posting
On Tue, May 14, 2024 at 2:40 PM Richard wrote: > You really must think of yourself as being the epitome of human creation. > I don't see any use in continuing this nonsense. If you don't have anything > relevant to say, this case is closed for me. > Who are you talking about? There are two people in the reply below. Jeff > Am Di., 14. Mai 2024 um 16:55 Uhr schrieb gene heskett < > ghesk...@shentel.net>: > >> On 5/14/24 10:09, Richard wrote: >> > Just because something isn't an official ISO standard doesn't mean it's >> > not standard behavior. And how it relates to this mailing list? It's >> > called a setting. >> > >> No its not, its your refusal to use the down arrow in your reply editor >> to put your reply after the question. It really is that simple. If your >> choice of email agents cannot do that, its time to switch to an agent >> that can. There are dozens of them. >> >> > Am Di., 14. Mai 2024 um 15:57 Uhr schrieb Loris Bennett >> > mailto:loris.benn...@fu-berlin.de>>: >> > >> > Hi Richard, >> > >> > Richard mailto:rrosn...@gmail.com>> writes: >> > >> > > "Top posting" (writing the answer above the text that's being >> replied >> > > to) is literally industry standard behavior. >> > >> > Can you provide a link to the standard you are referring to? >> > >> > Assuming such a standard exists, how would it apply to this >> newsgroup? >> > >> > [snip (51 lines)] >> > >> > Cheers, >> > >> > Loris >> >> Cheers, Gene Heskett, CET. >> >
Re: OT: Top Posting
well, speaking personally, I can respect both sides. I use a screen reader. Having to wade through loads of text, for a conversational flow, especially when not edited is far from productive for me personally. it is much better to have a top post, for me personally, because I have no issues reading below..if needful. I can only imagine what it is like for folks on small screens, having to translate from English etc. Do I understand the conversation idea? absolutely. Do I also realize that if the thread is not edited the conversation is less fluid and more a lake of mud? Absolutely as well. Karen On Tue, 14 May 2024, Nicolas George wrote: Greg Wooledge (12024-05-14): Usenet news. For people in this culture, there is a well-defined set of "netiquette" rules -- plain text messages, inline quoting with "> " citation characters, lines limited to ~72 characters, etc. I slightly disagree with this wording: you make it sound like we follow the rules just because they are there. Not so: we follow the rules because they make sense, because they make conversations more fluid: - Limiting to 72 characters was good because a lot of terminals were 80 columns, and it is still good because longer lines are hard to read but mail software still is not smart enough to rewrap text by the mile but not code. - Trimmed interleaved quoting presents to the reader the exact information they need in the order they need it to understand the reply and what it is about. In summary, the hackers culture expects the sender to spend a little effort into making the mail easy to read for the recipient(s) while the culture of the general population expects the sender to make as little effort as possible and the recipient(s) to bear the burden that the software in between cannot take, i.e. most of it. And the “(s)” tells us which culture is more efficient and why. The second culture are Windows users who grew up with Microsoft products in their school or workplace. In this culture, top-posting is the norm, and inline quoting is nigh impossible. Messages are often sent in either HTML or markdown format. Messages in Markdown in the Windows world? I have never seen it. The best course of action in this case is to drop it Indeed. But we can still discuss cultural issues relevant to mailing-lists around it. Regards, -- Nicolas George
Re: OT: Top Posting
On Tue, May 14, 2024 at 05:01:31PM +, fxkl4...@protonmail.com wrote: > how many times has this top post crap been dug up > don't y'all have any thing better to do > i know > how about some real debian issues > Hi, Have a quick look at the Debian-user FAQ posted each month and the Debian Code of Conduct. Both of those are real Debian issues - they're part of the way that this mailing list operates so that people can read and understand long threads. They also allow us to maintain smaller archives that nonetheless retain the important information. May I suggest that you look back at about 30 years worth of the history here? All the very best, as ever, Andy (amaca...@debian.org)
Re: OT: Top Posting
Greg Wooledge (12024-05-14): > Usenet news. For people in this culture, there is a well-defined set > of "netiquette" rules -- plain text messages, inline quoting with "> " > citation characters, lines limited to ~72 characters, etc. I slightly disagree with this wording: you make it sound like we follow the rules just because they are there. Not so: we follow the rules because they make sense, because they make conversations more fluid: - Limiting to 72 characters was good because a lot of terminals were 80 columns, and it is still good because longer lines are hard to read but mail software still is not smart enough to rewrap text by the mile but not code. - Trimmed interleaved quoting presents to the reader the exact information they need in the order they need it to understand the reply and what it is about. In summary, the hackers culture expects the sender to spend a little effort into making the mail easy to read for the recipient(s) while the culture of the general population expects the sender to make as little effort as possible and the recipient(s) to bear the burden that the software in between cannot take, i.e. most of it. And the “(s)” tells us which culture is more efficient and why. > The second culture are Windows users who grew up with Microsoft products > in their school or workplace. In this culture, top-posting is the norm, > and inline quoting is nigh impossible. Messages are often sent in either > HTML or markdown format. Messages in Markdown in the Windows world? I have never seen it. > The best course of action in this case is to drop it Indeed. But we can still discuss cultural issues relevant to mailing-lists around it. Regards, -- Nicolas George
Re: OT: Top Posting
On 5/14/24 10:41 AM, Greg Wooledge wrote: We have a clash of two cultures here. More than just *nix vs. M$. In business communications by email, the norm is to quote the *entire* thread, every time, without paring anything down, purely for the sake of CYA. As such, top-posting is the only reasonable alternative, given that recipients would otherwise have to scroll through hundreds, perhaps thousands of lines of quoted material to find a bottom-posted reply, or worse, *actually read* through all that quoted material to find an inline-posted reply. In list-server communications (and to a lesser extent, BBS posts), the norm is to pare down quoted material to the barest minimum needed to provide context (originally to save bandwidth and storage, both of which are *still* finite resources), and to bottom-post or inline-post one's replies, in order to give them a more natural flow. CYA doesn't factor in at all. -- JHHL
Re: OT: Top Posting
On Tue, May 14, 2024 at 05:01:31PM +, fxkl4...@protonmail.com wrote: > how many times has this top post crap been dug up > don't y'all have any thing better to do It's never going to stop. We have a clash of two cultures here. The first culture are Unix users who grew up with Internet email and Usenet news. For people in this culture, there is a well-defined set of "netiquette" rules -- plain text messages, inline quoting with "> " citation characters, lines limited to ~72 characters, etc. For users in this first group, email is often read and composed on a terminal, or a terminal emulator. Characters are displayed in a fixed-width font. ASCII art is possible, albeit frowned upon as juvenile. The second culture are Windows users who grew up with Microsoft products in their school or workplace. In this culture, top-posting is the norm, and inline quoting is nigh impossible. Messages are often sent in either HTML or markdown format. Whole paragraphs are presented as single lines. Explicit line breaks are only used between paragraphs. Users in this second group typically use Microsoft Outlook, or a web-based mail user agent in a graphical environment. Fonts are variable-width, and any ASCII art or tables will not align properly. Now, normally when these cultures clash, we're able to point to the Debian netiquette guidelines, and move on. In this particular instance, we've got a person from the second culture who seems to have no idea that other cultures exist, or that a mailing list might not adhere to their own expectations. This person is acting belligerantly, and will not listen to gentle reminders. The best course of action in this case is to drop it, but pride can make people do the wrong things sometimes.
Re: OT: Top Posting
how many times has this top post crap been dug up don't y'all have any thing better to do i know how about some real debian issues
Re: OT: Top Posting (was: Dovecot correct ownership for logs)
On Tue, May 14, 2024 at 04:08:19PM +0200, Richard wrote: > Just because something isn't an official ISO standard doesn't mean it's not > standard behavior. And how it relates to this mailing list? It's called a > setting. Most people prefer inline quoting around here (I know I do). That's because for big mailing lists, with long threads, it works much, much better. That said, we usually are tolerant of top posts. What gets me is the hostility of your reaction. You aren't going to convince anyone. Even not with "industry standards" [1] As far as your main concern goes... I lost interest. Cheers [1] Q: How many Microsoft technicians does it take to change a light bulb? A: None, they just redefine Darkness (TM) as the new industry standard. https://www.linux.com/news/how-many-microsoft-technicians-does-it-take-change-light-bulb/ -- t signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: OT: Top Posting
You really must think of yourself as being the epitome of human creation. I don't see any use in continuing this nonsense. If you don't have anything relevant to say, this case is closed for me. Am Di., 14. Mai 2024 um 16:55 Uhr schrieb gene heskett : > On 5/14/24 10:09, Richard wrote: > > Just because something isn't an official ISO standard doesn't mean it's > > not standard behavior. And how it relates to this mailing list? It's > > called a setting. > > > No its not, its your refusal to use the down arrow in your reply editor > to put your reply after the question. It really is that simple. If your > choice of email agents cannot do that, its time to switch to an agent > that can. There are dozens of them. > > > Am Di., 14. Mai 2024 um 15:57 Uhr schrieb Loris Bennett > > mailto:loris.benn...@fu-berlin.de>>: > > > > Hi Richard, > > > > Richard mailto:rrosn...@gmail.com>> writes: > > > > > "Top posting" (writing the answer above the text that's being > replied > > > to) is literally industry standard behavior. > > > > Can you provide a link to the standard you are referring to? > > > > Assuming such a standard exists, how would it apply to this > newsgroup? > > > > [snip (51 lines)] > > > > Cheers, > > > > Loris > > > > -- > > This signature is currently under constuction. > > > > Cheers, Gene Heskett, CET. > -- > "There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: > soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order." > -Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940) > If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable. > - Louis D. Brandeis > >
Re: OT: Top Posting
On 5/14/24 10:09, Richard wrote: Just because something isn't an official ISO standard doesn't mean it's not standard behavior. And how it relates to this mailing list? It's called a setting. No its not, its your refusal to use the down arrow in your reply editor to put your reply after the question. It really is that simple. If your choice of email agents cannot do that, its time to switch to an agent that can. There are dozens of them. Am Di., 14. Mai 2024 um 15:57 Uhr schrieb Loris Bennett mailto:loris.benn...@fu-berlin.de>>: Hi Richard, Richard mailto:rrosn...@gmail.com>> writes: > "Top posting" (writing the answer above the text that's being replied > to) is literally industry standard behavior. Can you provide a link to the standard you are referring to? Assuming such a standard exists, how would it apply to this newsgroup? [snip (51 lines)] Cheers, Loris -- This signature is currently under constuction. Cheers, Gene Heskett, CET. -- "There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order." -Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940) If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable. - Louis D. Brandeis
Re: OT: Top Posting (was: Dovecot correct ownership for logs)
Just because something isn't an official ISO standard doesn't mean it's not standard behavior. And how it relates to this mailing list? It's called a setting. Am Di., 14. Mai 2024 um 15:57 Uhr schrieb Loris Bennett < loris.benn...@fu-berlin.de>: > Hi Richard, > > Richard writes: > > > "Top posting" (writing the answer above the text that's being replied > > to) is literally industry standard behavior. > > Can you provide a link to the standard you are referring to? > > Assuming such a standard exists, how would it apply to this newsgroup? > > [snip (51 lines)] > > Cheers, > > Loris > > -- > This signature is currently under constuction. > >
OT: Top Posting (was: Dovecot correct ownership for logs)
Hi Richard, Richard writes: > "Top posting" (writing the answer above the text that's being replied > to) is literally industry standard behavior. Can you provide a link to the standard you are referring to? Assuming such a standard exists, how would it apply to this newsgroup? [snip (51 lines)] Cheers, Loris -- This signature is currently under constuction.
Re: OT: Forwarding and top posting (was: Re: OT: Pedantic, yet wrong)
Hello, On Thu, Jun 22, 2023 at 04:24:47PM -0700, Manphiz wrote: > Personally I don't have a strong preference either way, but would like > to hear more opinions on this. The complaint about a top-posted forwarded message just because it had a contextual hint at the top, seemed excessive to me. I would have done the same as the OP without thinking anything of it. Cheers, Andy -- https://bitfolk.com/ -- No-nonsense VPS hosting
OT: Forwarding and top posting (was: Re: OT: Pedantic, yet wrong)
David Christensen writes:
> On 6/22/23 03:28, Ottavio Caruso wrote:
>> Am 21/06/2023 um 15:46 schrieb to...@tuxteam.de:
>
>>> ... top posting ...
>
>> ... When the message is forwarded ("Weitergeleitet", ... you have no
>> other choice than to top post because the forwarded message is not
>> indented. It would make no sense to bottom post because there would
>> be no way to tell the comment apart from the post. ...
>
>
> I use Thunderbird. When I want to start a new thread based upon an existing
> thread and keep prior content, I click "Reply", copy the content to the
> clipboard, create a new message, paste, and choose Edit -> Rewrap. This
> produces a new thread with proper indentation of prior content. Perhaps your
> mail client has a similar capability.
>
>
> HTH,
>
> David
Honest question regarding forwarding and top posting: while I totally
get that bottom posting style works naturally in a conversation thread,
for a forwarded email the situation is slightly different: it may not be
obvious why the recipient is getting a mail starting with a (potentially
long) quoted message. IMHO in such case top posting with an explanation
on why the sender is forwarding the mail kind of makes sense.
Regarding forwarding in MUA, old school MUAs (like gnus, mu4e) provides
a quote automatically and put the cursor below; however in Thunderbird
it doesn't quote the forwarded message but provide a separate line, and
even if I set posting style to be below original message, it will post
the cursor above the forwarded message anyway, which makes me feel that
this may be a sensible way to handle forwarded message after all.
Personally I don't have a strong preference either way, but would like
to hear more opinions on this.
--
Manphiz
Re: Top-posting (was Re: how to test disk for bad sector)
On Sun, 30 Aug 2020 09:14:16 -0700 Charlie Gibbs wrote: > If someone can't be bothered to take the time to write a readable > message, I can't be bothered to take the time to decipher it. On the other tentacle, this sort of thing is usually the province of newbies. I think it would help to refer newbies to some advice. I would refer them to ESR's How To Ask Questions The Smart Way, but the catb.org server is not co-operating. -- Does anybody read signatures any more? https://charlescurley.com https://charlescurley.com/blog/
Re: Top-posting
Charlie Gibbs composed on 2020-08-30 09:14 (UTC-0700): > On Sun, 30 Aug 2020 16:30:01 +0200 Charles Curley wrote: >> On Sun, 30 Aug 2020 14:02:48 + Andy Smith wrote: >>> Between your top posting and the HTML mails, I find it very >>> difficult to read your emails so I mostly haven't bothered. >> Hear, hear. My sentiments exactly. >> Yahoo mail is broken. I encourage Mr. Wind to get another mail reader. > If someone can't be bothered to take the time to write a readable > message, I can't be bothered to take the time to decipher it. > As for Outlook, I've been told that the correct pronunciation is > "Look out!" I pronounce it out house. "Even the magic 8 ball has an opinion on email clients: Outlook not so good" -- Evolution as taught in public schools, like religion, is based on faith, not on science. Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/
Top-posting (was Re: how to test disk for bad sector)
On Sun, 30 Aug 2020 16:30:01 +0200 Charles Curley wrote: > On Sun, 30 Aug 2020 14:02:48 + > Andy Smith wrote: > >> Between your top posting and the HTML mails, I find it very >> difficult to read your emails so I mostly haven't bothered. > > Hear, hear. My sentiments exactly. > > Yahoo mail is broken. I encourage Mr. Wind to get another mail reader. If someone can't be bothered to take the time to write a readable message, I can't be bothered to take the time to decipher it. As for Outlook, I've been told that the correct pronunciation is "Look out!" -- /~\ Charlie Gibbs | Microsoft is a dictatorship. \ /| Apple is a cult. X I'm really at ac.dekanfrus | Linux is anarchy. / \ if you read it the right way. | Pick your poison.
Re: OT Top-posting y Bottom Posting
El mié., 18 de sep. de 2019 a la(s) 20:02, Fran Torres (frantorresgall...@gmail.com) escribió: > > Buenas, > > el problema del bottom posting, es que cuando necesitas encontrar una > solución x a un problema z de una forma rápida y eficiente (aquí > también entra la accesibilidad), el bottom posting no ayuda... > > Fran. > Accesibilidad si puede ser, podría implementarse una solución que permitiera invertir el orden de lectura del correo.. ¿Pero acaso cuando buscas en un libro esperar encontrar la respuesta en el primer capítulo o en la primera hoja? Por eso se marca el tema como [Solucionado] así si no quieres darte "el trabajo" de leer el hilo completo te guías por el asunto (por eso la importancia del asunto) y por el [Solucionado]. Es correo lo envié a la lista ya que me llegó al privado, lo cual es otro error recurrente. Saludos. > El 19/9/19, Felix Perez escribió: > > El mié., 18 de sep. de 2019 a la(s) 16:38, juan > > (juansanti...@riseup.net) escribió: > >> > >> > >> El 18/9/19 a las 18:10, Felix Perez escribió: > >> > El mié., 21 de ago. de 2019 a la(s) 13:55, juan > >> > (juansanti...@riseup.net) escribió: > >> >> No sabía que en esta lista hay un regla anti top-postng por eso lo > >> >> hacía siempre, para mi es la forma natural de responder para mi es muy > >> >> fácil seguir un hilo si se que tengo que hacerlo de abajo a arriba, > >> >> pero lo más importante es que nos pongamos de acuerdo, ya que el > >> >> verdadero desbarajuste y las complicaciones a la hora de leer y > >> >> organizar discusiones vienen cuanto unos lo hacemos de una manera y > >> >> otros de otra. > >> >> > >> > No, no es la forma natural ¿o tú respondes antes que te hagan una > >> > pregunta? ¿o respondes antes que te hablen? > >> > > >> > Saludos. > >> > > >> > > >> Lo concidero la forma natural porque es una respuesta a algo ya leido, > >> muy diferete a la cominicación hablada, imagina hablando antes de > >> respoder repetir todo lo ya dicho > >> > > La verdad no se te entiende mucho, pero no es natural el top posting, > > si el bottom posting, ejemplos: > > > > escrito: > > - leo > > - contesto > > - leo > > - contesto > > > > hablado: > > - escucho > > - contesto > > - escucho > > - contesto > > > > > > Saludos. > > > > -- > > usuario linux #274354 > > normas de la lista: http://wiki.debian.org/es/NormasLista > > como hacer preguntas inteligentes: > > http://www.sindominio.net/ayuda/preguntas-inteligentes.html > > > > -- usuario linux #274354 normas de la lista: http://wiki.debian.org/es/NormasLista como hacer preguntas inteligentes: http://www.sindominio.net/ayuda/preguntas-inteligentes.html
Re: OT Top-posting y Bottom Posting
El mié., 18 de sep. de 2019 a la(s) 16:38, juan (juansanti...@riseup.net) escribió: > > > El 18/9/19 a las 18:10, Felix Perez escribió: > > El mié., 21 de ago. de 2019 a la(s) 13:55, juan > > (juansanti...@riseup.net) escribió: > >> No sabía que en esta lista hay un regla anti top-postng por eso lo hacía > >> siempre, para mi es la forma natural de responder para mi es muy fácil > >> seguir un hilo si se que tengo que hacerlo de abajo a arriba, pero lo más > >> importante es que nos pongamos de acuerdo, ya que el verdadero > >> desbarajuste y las complicaciones a la hora de leer y organizar > >> discusiones vienen cuanto unos lo hacemos de una manera y otros de otra. > >> > > No, no es la forma natural ¿o tú respondes antes que te hagan una > > pregunta? ¿o respondes antes que te hablen? > > > > Saludos. > > > > > Lo concidero la forma natural porque es una respuesta a algo ya leido, > muy diferete a la cominicación hablada, imagina hablando antes de > respoder repetir todo lo ya dicho > La verdad no se te entiende mucho, pero no es natural el top posting, si el bottom posting, ejemplos: escrito: - leo - contesto - leo - contesto hablado: - escucho - contesto - escucho - contesto Saludos. -- usuario linux #274354 normas de la lista: http://wiki.debian.org/es/NormasLista como hacer preguntas inteligentes: http://www.sindominio.net/ayuda/preguntas-inteligentes.html
Re: OT Top-posting y Bottom Posting
El 18/9/19 a las 18:10, Felix Perez escribió: El mié., 21 de ago. de 2019 a la(s) 13:55, juan (juansanti...@riseup.net) escribió: No sabía que en esta lista hay un regla anti top-postng por eso lo hacía siempre, para mi es la forma natural de responder para mi es muy fácil seguir un hilo si se que tengo que hacerlo de abajo a arriba, pero lo más importante es que nos pongamos de acuerdo, ya que el verdadero desbarajuste y las complicaciones a la hora de leer y organizar discusiones vienen cuanto unos lo hacemos de una manera y otros de otra. No, no es la forma natural ¿o tú respondes antes que te hagan una pregunta? ¿o respondes antes que te hablen? Saludos. Lo concidero la forma natural porque es una respuesta a algo ya leido, muy diferete a la cominicación hablada, imagina hablando antes de respoder repetir todo lo ya dicho
Re: OT Top-posting y Bottom Posting
El jue., 22 de ago. de 2019 a la(s) 07:17, Debian (javier.debian.bb...@gmail.com) escribió: > > Sí. > Nosotros, los propios usuarios, con un acuerdo, podemos modificar las > normas. > Son normas de convivencia, no leyes escritas en piedra bajadas desde lo > alto. > > Lo que habla Fran, invidente, es algo que debe incorporarse en las > normas. No se me había pasado siquiera por la mente. > Yo tampoco ni siquiera lo había pensado. > Podemos abrir un hilo con el párrafo a modificar de las normas y llegar > a un consenso de redacción que incluya el tema de accesibilidad. > Tal y como cuando un usuario señala que se le envía copia al privado, el usuario podría solicitar que se le conteste con top posting. Saludos. > Yo, personalmente, soy editor de la Wiki Debian; tengo los permisos > necesarios; cosa que no es difícil de hacer, pero también en ellas hay > que mantener ciertas normas. > > JAP > > > > El 21/8/19 a las 19:19, juan escribió: > > |Accesibilidad ||es palabra mayor, debido a eso y al cambio tecnológico > > antes mencionado > > por otro compañero ¿como es el método para modificar las normas de esta > > lista? ¿hay uno?| > > > > |Posdata un poco off topic: Se agradece enormemente que no se usen > > signos extra alfabéticos ni las famosas x para el lenguaje inclusivo, > > eso hace terriblemente ripiosa la lectura con moduladores de voz como > > los que usa el compañero Fran y yo en ocasiones también, se puede > > construir lenguaje influyente usando solo trucos de redacción y buscando > > sinónimos inclusivos que si no incluimos todos los generos pero > > excluimos a los ciegos, mal negocio, un día un ciego va a tirar su > > computadora por la ventana de tanta @, x, etc > > | > > > -- usuario linux #274354 normas de la lista: http://wiki.debian.org/es/NormasLista como hacer preguntas inteligentes: http://www.sindominio.net/ayuda/preguntas-inteligentes.html
Re: OT Top-posting y Bottom Posting
El mié., 21 de ago. de 2019 a la(s) 13:55, juan (juansanti...@riseup.net) escribió: > > No sabía que en esta lista hay un regla anti top-postng por eso lo hacía > siempre, para mi es la forma natural de responder para mi es muy fácil seguir > un hilo si se que tengo que hacerlo de abajo a arriba, pero lo más importante > es que nos pongamos de acuerdo, ya que el verdadero desbarajuste y las > complicaciones a la hora de leer y organizar discusiones vienen cuanto unos > lo hacemos de una manera y otros de otra. > No, no es la forma natural ¿o tú respondes antes que te hagan una pregunta? ¿o respondes antes que te hablen? Saludos. -- usuario linux #274354 normas de la lista: http://wiki.debian.org/es/NormasLista como hacer preguntas inteligentes: http://www.sindominio.net/ayuda/preguntas-inteligentes.html
Re: OT Top-posting y Bottom Posting
On Tue, Sep 10, 2019 at 6:40 PM Jaime Casanova wrote: > > Sin embargo, el hacerlo así no es una cuestión de debian por ejemplo > en el rfc 1855 (https://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc1855.txt) se incluye este > párrafo: > """ > - Be brief without being overly terse. When replying to a message, > include enough original material to be understood but no more. It > is extremely bad form to simply reply to a message by including > all the previous message: edit out all the irrelevant material. > """ > y, por supuesto, este otro párrafo: """ - If you are sending a reply to a message or a posting be sure you summarize the original at the top of the message, or include just enough text of the original to give a context. This will make sure readers understand when they start to read your response. Since NetNews, especially, is proliferated by distributing the postings from one host to another, it is possible to see a response to a message before seeing the original. Giving context helps everyone. But do not include the entire original! """ -- Jaime Casanova www.2ndQuadrant.com Professional PostgreSQL: Soporte 24x7 y capacitación
Re: OT Top-posting y Bottom Posting
On Wed, Aug 21, 2019 at 10:39 AM Paynalton wrote: > > En Debian siempre ha imperado la democracia y, además de ser la mayor base > tecnológica de nuestros tiempos, se ha convertido en un ejemplo de lo que una > organización democrática bien organizada puede lograr. > De hecho, aunque así lo parece en realidad Debian como muchos otros proyectos de software libre es una *meritocracia*. > > Siguiendo esta línea de razonamiento pongo sobre la mesa la siguiente > discusión: > > La regla de Top Posting y Bottom-Posting fue establecida en un tiempo en que > la mayoría de los usuarios Debian usábamos clientes sólo texto por su > versatilidad, rapidez y muchas otras cosas que en su tiempo superaban a > cualquier cliente gráfico. Sin embargo a más de una década desde entonces, > además del avance en los clientes gráficos tenemos los clientes web, > aplicaciones móviles, asistentes y demás tecnologías. > Es la primera vez que veo el termino "bottom-posting" pero parece referirse a escribir las respuestas o comentarios justo abajo de las preguntas o párrafos que se comentan Sin embargo, el hacerlo así no es una cuestión de debian por ejemplo en el rfc 1855 (https://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc1855.txt) se incluye este párrafo: """ - Be brief without being overly terse. When replying to a message, include enough original material to be understood but no more. It is extremely bad form to simply reply to a message by including all the previous message: edit out all the irrelevant material. """ -- Jaime Casanova www.2ndQuadrant.com Professional PostgreSQL: Soporte 24x7 y capacitación
Re: OT Top-posting y Bottom Posting
El 29/8/19 a las 18:26, Paynalton escribió:
El jue., 22 ago. 2019 a las 6:17, Debian
(<mailto:javier.debian.bb...@gmail.com>>) escribió:
Sí.
Nosotros, los propios usuarios, con un acuerdo, podemos modificar las
normas.
Son normas de convivencia, no leyes escritas en piedra bajadas
desde lo
alto.
Lo que habla Fran, invidente, es algo que debe incorporarse en las
normas. No se me había pasado siquiera por la mente.
Podemos abrir un hilo con el párrafo a modificar de las normas y
llegar
a un consenso de redacción que incluya el tema de accesibilidad.
Yo, personalmente, soy editor de la Wiki Debian; tengo los permisos
necesarios; cosa que no es difícil de hacer, pero también en ellas
hay
que mantener ciertas normas.
Para hacer esto transparente y ordenado quiero proponer un proceso de
decisión democrático. En la parte de recepción de propuestas sería muy
útil que se pusiera la fuente del wiki en github para recibir las
propuestas de modificación y la que resulte ganadora se integra, así
sólo tendrías que copiar y pegar la fuente de regreso al wiki.
Sería posible que nos ayudaras con eso???
JAP
El 21/8/19 a las 19:19, juan escribió:
> |Accesibilidad ||es palabra mayor, debido a eso y al cambio
tecnológico antes mencionado
> por otro compañero ¿como es el método para modificar las normas
de esta
> lista? ¿hay uno?|
>
> |Posdata un poco off topic: Se agradece enormemente que no se usen
> signos extra alfabéticos ni las famosas x para el lenguaje
inclusivo,
> eso hace terriblemente ripiosa la lectura con moduladores de voz
como
> los que usa el compañero Fran y yo en ocasiones también, se puede
> construir lenguaje influyente usando solo trucos de redacción y
buscando
> sinónimos inclusivos que si no incluimos todos los generos pero
> excluimos a los ciegos, mal negocio, un día un ciego va a tirar su
> computadora por la ventana de tanta @, x, etc
> |
>
Hola
A mi personalmente me da lo mismo Top-posting o Bottom Posting. Lo que
creo es que las normas se pueden modificar, no estamos en una
dictadura,pero esa modificación debe ser por acuerdo entre todos y que
esa norma acordada la cumplamos todos, y no como hasta ahora que unos
hacen top-posting y otros Bottom-posting.
Saludos
--
Un saludo,
José Manuel
Gran Canaria/España
Si vas a escribir.. piensa en esto:
no digas nada que no sea mas precioso que el silencio!!!
Re: OT Top-posting y Bottom Posting
El jue., 22 ago. 2019 a las 6:17, Debian () escribió: > Sí. > Nosotros, los propios usuarios, con un acuerdo, podemos modificar las > normas. > Son normas de convivencia, no leyes escritas en piedra bajadas desde lo > alto. > > Lo que habla Fran, invidente, es algo que debe incorporarse en las > normas. No se me había pasado siquiera por la mente. > > Podemos abrir un hilo con el párrafo a modificar de las normas y llegar > a un consenso de redacción que incluya el tema de accesibilidad. > > Yo, personalmente, soy editor de la Wiki Debian; tengo los permisos > necesarios; cosa que no es difícil de hacer, pero también en ellas hay > que mantener ciertas normas. > Para hacer esto transparente y ordenado quiero proponer un proceso de decisión democrático. En la parte de recepción de propuestas sería muy útil que se pusiera la fuente del wiki en github para recibir las propuestas de modificación y la que resulte ganadora se integra, así sólo tendrías que copiar y pegar la fuente de regreso al wiki. Sería posible que nos ayudaras con eso??? > > JAP > > > > El 21/8/19 a las 19:19, juan escribió: > > |Accesibilidad ||es palabra mayor, debido a eso y al cambio tecnológico > antes mencionado > > por otro compañero ¿como es el método para modificar las normas de esta > > lista? ¿hay uno?| > > > > |Posdata un poco off topic: Se agradece enormemente que no se usen > > signos extra alfabéticos ni las famosas x para el lenguaje inclusivo, > > eso hace terriblemente ripiosa la lectura con moduladores de voz como > > los que usa el compañero Fran y yo en ocasiones también, se puede > > construir lenguaje influyente usando solo trucos de redacción y buscando > > sinónimos inclusivos que si no incluimos todos los generos pero > > excluimos a los ciegos, mal negocio, un día un ciego va a tirar su > > computadora por la ventana de tanta @, x, etc > > | > > >
Re: OT Top-posting y Bottom Posting
Sí. Nosotros, los propios usuarios, con un acuerdo, podemos modificar las normas. Son normas de convivencia, no leyes escritas en piedra bajadas desde lo alto. Lo que habla Fran, invidente, es algo que debe incorporarse en las normas. No se me había pasado siquiera por la mente. Podemos abrir un hilo con el párrafo a modificar de las normas y llegar a un consenso de redacción que incluya el tema de accesibilidad. Yo, personalmente, soy editor de la Wiki Debian; tengo los permisos necesarios; cosa que no es difícil de hacer, pero también en ellas hay que mantener ciertas normas. JAP El 21/8/19 a las 19:19, juan escribió: |Accesibilidad ||es palabra mayor, debido a eso y al cambio tecnológico antes mencionado por otro compañero ¿como es el método para modificar las normas de esta lista? ¿hay uno?| |Posdata un poco off topic: Se agradece enormemente que no se usen signos extra alfabéticos ni las famosas x para el lenguaje inclusivo, eso hace terriblemente ripiosa la lectura con moduladores de voz como los que usa el compañero Fran y yo en ocasiones también, se puede construir lenguaje influyente usando solo trucos de redacción y buscando sinónimos inclusivos que si no incluimos todos los generos pero excluimos a los ciegos, mal negocio, un día un ciego va a tirar su computadora por la ventana de tanta @, x, etc |
Re: OT Top-posting y Bottom Posting
Dios que coñazo de lista ya no aguanto más, me doy de baja El jue., 22 ago. 2019 0:20, juan escribió: > Accesibilidad es palabra mayor, debido a eso y al cambio tecnológico antes > mencionado por otro compañero ¿como es el método para modificar las normas de > esta lista? ¿hay uno? > > Posdata un poco off topic: Se agradece enormemente que no se usen signos > extra alfabéticos ni las famosas x para el lenguaje inclusivo, eso hace > terriblemente ripiosa la lectura con moduladores de voz como los que usa el > compañero Fran y yo en ocasiones también, se puede construir lenguaje > influyente usando solo trucos de redacción y buscando sinónimos inclusivos > que si no incluimos todos los generos pero excluimos a los ciegos, mal > negocio, un día un ciego va a tirar su computadora por la ventana de tanta > @, x, etc > > > El 21/8/19 a las 22:50, Fran Torres escribió: > > Buenas, > > yo siempre suelo hacer incapié en la accesibilidad (como usuario > invidente de debian). De hecho, si no me equivoco, en la lista > debian-accessibility (también estoy en ella) se utiliza mucho el > top-posting. Por qué? > Por que con lectores de pantalla, es mucho más sencillo, rápido y > eficiente, leer la última respuesta como la primera. la penúltima como > la segunda y así sucesivamente. Es decir, top-posting. > A demás, si hay contenido HTML mejor, pues permite saltar a enlaces, > hencabezados, etc... Siempre que estos estén bien estructurados Pero, > si se ha de prescindir del HTML, eso no va a afectar a la > accesibilidad que es el punto importante aquí, mas sí a la eficiencia > de lectura. > Obviamente, estamos hablando de usuarios ciegos que leemos o bien > con clientes de correo, o bien con interface web. En mi caso, es la > segunda. > Si usase la consola, creo que mi preferencia sería la misma. El > top-posting, por eso de poder usar la regla de los 2 minutos. > Encontrar la información en aproximadamente dos minutos. > > Como digo, no es cuestión de gustos; si no de accesibilidad. > > Fran. > PD: si son varias preguntas en un solo mensaje, entonces estoy a favor > de la política de respuesta entre líneas. Pues, ahí también hay > accesibilidad. > > > El 21/8/19, Debian > escribió: > > > > El 21/8/19 a las 14:55, juan escribió: > > |No sabía que en esta lista hay un regla anti top-postng por eso lo > hacía siempre, para mi es la forma natural de responder para mi es muy > fácil seguir un hilo si se que tengo que hacerlo de abajo a arriba, pero > lo más importante es que nos pongamos de acuerdo, ya que el verdadero > desbarajuste y las complicaciones a la hora de leer y organizar > discusiones vienen cuanto unos lo hacemos de una manera y otros de otra.| > > |Posdata: ¿lo que acabo de hacer de borrar todo y responder a página en > blanco está mal visto o rompe alguna regla?| > > > > No, no está mal, muchas veces se suele hacer, > Por ejemplo, si alguien tuvo que hacer varias pruebas antes de dar la > solución final, lo que fue intentando, se borra. > > Y sólo se deja en el hilo el problema original, y las distintas > soluciones que se fueron dando en el tiempo que condujeron a la solución > final, si la hubo. > > > |¿por que lo hago? Porque no respondo a nadie en particular sino tema > del hilo que está bastante esparramado y si alguien no conoce el hilo y > quiere ver antecedentes puede buscar por el tículo. > | > > > > Por supuesto, peeero... > Lo ideal es que un hilo se cierre, modificando el "Asunto", agregando al > final la palabra "solucionado", así: > > Re: OT Top-posting y Bottom Posting - [SOLUCIONADO] > > > |Y la respuesta directa a un ||usuario||creo que la mayoría la > ||consideramos||improcedente, ||creo que mailman pude bloquear esta > posibilidad siempre que los correos estén ocultos en esta lista son > públicos.| > > || > > > > La respuesta directa a un usuario se considera de MUY MALA educación. Es > como estar en una reunión entre varias personas, y que dos se pongan a > "secretear" entre ellos. > > > Y también es válido responder entre párrafos cuando es conveniente > mantener un orden en las respuestas a varias preguntas. > > JAP > > > >
Re: OT Top-posting y Bottom Posting
|Accesibilidad ||es palabra mayor, debido a eso y al cambio tecnológico antes mencionado por otro compañero ¿como es el método para modificar las normas de esta lista? ¿hay uno?| |Posdata un poco off topic: Se agradece enormemente que no se usen signos extra alfabéticos ni las famosas x para el lenguaje inclusivo, eso hace terriblemente ripiosa la lectura con moduladores de voz como los que usa el compañero Fran y yo en ocasiones también, se puede construir lenguaje influyente usando solo trucos de redacción y buscando sinónimos inclusivos que si no incluimos todos los generos pero excluimos a los ciegos, mal negocio, un día un ciego va a tirar su computadora por la ventana de tanta @, x, etc | | | El 21/8/19 a las 22:50, Fran Torres escribió: Buenas, yo siempre suelo hacer incapié en la accesibilidad (como usuario invidente de debian). De hecho, si no me equivoco, en la lista debian-accessibility (también estoy en ella) se utiliza mucho el top-posting. Por qué? Por que con lectores de pantalla, es mucho más sencillo, rápido y eficiente, leer la última respuesta como la primera. la penúltima como la segunda y así sucesivamente. Es decir, top-posting. A demás, si hay contenido HTML mejor, pues permite saltar a enlaces, hencabezados, etc... Siempre que estos estén bien estructurados Pero, si se ha de prescindir del HTML, eso no va a afectar a la accesibilidad que es el punto importante aquí, mas sí a la eficiencia de lectura. Obviamente, estamos hablando de usuarios ciegos que leemos o bien con clientes de correo, o bien con interface web. En mi caso, es la segunda. Si usase la consola, creo que mi preferencia sería la misma. El top-posting, por eso de poder usar la regla de los 2 minutos. Encontrar la información en aproximadamente dos minutos. Como digo, no es cuestión de gustos; si no de accesibilidad. Fran. PD: si son varias preguntas en un solo mensaje, entonces estoy a favor de la política de respuesta entre líneas. Pues, ahí también hay accesibilidad. El 21/8/19, Debian escribió: El 21/8/19 a las 14:55, juan escribió: |No sabía que en esta lista hay un regla anti top-postng por eso lo hacía siempre, para mi es la forma natural de responder para mi es muy fácil seguir un hilo si se que tengo que hacerlo de abajo a arriba, pero lo más importante es que nos pongamos de acuerdo, ya que el verdadero desbarajuste y las complicaciones a la hora de leer y organizar discusiones vienen cuanto unos lo hacemos de una manera y otros de otra.| |Posdata: ¿lo que acabo de hacer de borrar todo y responder a página en blanco está mal visto o rompe alguna regla?| No, no está mal, muchas veces se suele hacer, Por ejemplo, si alguien tuvo que hacer varias pruebas antes de dar la solución final, lo que fue intentando, se borra. Y sólo se deja en el hilo el problema original, y las distintas soluciones que se fueron dando en el tiempo que condujeron a la solución final, si la hubo. |¿por que lo hago? Porque no respondo a nadie en particular sino tema del hilo que está bastante esparramado y si alguien no conoce el hilo y quiere ver antecedentes puede buscar por el tículo. | Por supuesto, peeero... Lo ideal es que un hilo se cierre, modificando el "Asunto", agregando al final la palabra "solucionado", así: Re: OT Top-posting y Bottom Posting - [SOLUCIONADO] |Y la respuesta directa a un ||usuario||creo que la mayoría la ||consideramos||improcedente, ||creo que mailman pude bloquear esta posibilidad siempre que los correos estén ocultos en esta lista son públicos.| || La respuesta directa a un usuario se considera de MUY MALA educación. Es como estar en una reunión entre varias personas, y que dos se pongan a "secretear" entre ellos. Y también es válido responder entre párrafos cuando es conveniente mantener un orden en las respuestas a varias preguntas. JAP
Re: OT Top-posting y Bottom Posting
Buenas, yo siempre suelo hacer incapié en la accesibilidad (como usuario invidente de debian). De hecho, si no me equivoco, en la lista debian-accessibility (también estoy en ella) se utiliza mucho el top-posting. Por qué? Por que con lectores de pantalla, es mucho más sencillo, rápido y eficiente, leer la última respuesta como la primera. la penúltima como la segunda y así sucesivamente. Es decir, top-posting. A demás, si hay contenido HTML mejor, pues permite saltar a enlaces, hencabezados, etc... Siempre que estos estén bien estructurados Pero, si se ha de prescindir del HTML, eso no va a afectar a la accesibilidad que es el punto importante aquí, mas sí a la eficiencia de lectura. Obviamente, estamos hablando de usuarios ciegos que leemos o bien con clientes de correo, o bien con interface web. En mi caso, es la segunda. Si usase la consola, creo que mi preferencia sería la misma. El top-posting, por eso de poder usar la regla de los 2 minutos. Encontrar la información en aproximadamente dos minutos. Como digo, no es cuestión de gustos; si no de accesibilidad. Fran. PD: si son varias preguntas en un solo mensaje, entonces estoy a favor de la política de respuesta entre líneas. Pues, ahí también hay accesibilidad. El 21/8/19, Debian escribió: > > > El 21/8/19 a las 14:55, juan escribió: >> |No sabía que en esta lista hay un regla anti top-postng por eso lo >> hacía siempre, para mi es la forma natural de responder para mi es muy >> fácil seguir un hilo si se que tengo que hacerlo de abajo a arriba, pero >> lo más importante es que nos pongamos de acuerdo, ya que el verdadero >> desbarajuste y las complicaciones a la hora de leer y organizar >> discusiones vienen cuanto unos lo hacemos de una manera y otros de otra.| >> >> |Posdata: ¿lo que acabo de hacer de borrar todo y responder a página en >> blanco está mal visto o rompe alguna regla?| >> > > No, no está mal, muchas veces se suele hacer, > Por ejemplo, si alguien tuvo que hacer varias pruebas antes de dar la > solución final, lo que fue intentando, se borra. > > Y sólo se deja en el hilo el problema original, y las distintas > soluciones que se fueron dando en el tiempo que condujeron a la solución > final, si la hubo. > >> |¿por que lo hago? Porque no respondo a nadie en particular sino tema >> del hilo que está bastante esparramado y si alguien no conoce el hilo y >> quiere ver antecedentes puede buscar por el tículo. >> | >> > > Por supuesto, peeero... > Lo ideal es que un hilo se cierre, modificando el "Asunto", agregando al > final la palabra "solucionado", así: > > Re: OT Top-posting y Bottom Posting - [SOLUCIONADO] > >> |Y la respuesta directa a un ||usuario||creo que la mayoría la >> ||consideramos||improcedente, ||creo que mailman pude bloquear esta >> posibilidad siempre que los correos estén ocultos en esta lista son >> públicos.| >> >> || >> > > La respuesta directa a un usuario se considera de MUY MALA educación. Es > como estar en una reunión entre varias personas, y que dos se pongan a > "secretear" entre ellos. > > > Y también es válido responder entre párrafos cuando es conveniente > mantener un orden en las respuestas a varias preguntas. > > JAP > >
Re: OT Top-posting y Bottom Posting
El 21/8/19 a las 14:55, juan escribió: |No sabía que en esta lista hay un regla anti top-postng por eso lo hacía siempre, para mi es la forma natural de responder para mi es muy fácil seguir un hilo si se que tengo que hacerlo de abajo a arriba, pero lo más importante es que nos pongamos de acuerdo, ya que el verdadero desbarajuste y las complicaciones a la hora de leer y organizar discusiones vienen cuanto unos lo hacemos de una manera y otros de otra.| |Posdata: ¿lo que acabo de hacer de borrar todo y responder a página en blanco está mal visto o rompe alguna regla?| No, no está mal, muchas veces se suele hacer, Por ejemplo, si alguien tuvo que hacer varias pruebas antes de dar la solución final, lo que fue intentando, se borra. Y sólo se deja en el hilo el problema original, y las distintas soluciones que se fueron dando en el tiempo que condujeron a la solución final, si la hubo. |¿por que lo hago? Porque no respondo a nadie en particular sino tema del hilo que está bastante esparramado y si alguien no conoce el hilo y quiere ver antecedentes puede buscar por el tículo. | Por supuesto, peeero... Lo ideal es que un hilo se cierre, modificando el "Asunto", agregando al final la palabra "solucionado", así: Re: OT Top-posting y Bottom Posting - [SOLUCIONADO] |Y la respuesta directa a un ||usuario||creo que la mayoría la ||consideramos||improcedente, ||creo que mailman pude bloquear esta posibilidad siempre que los correos estén ocultos en esta lista son públicos.| || La respuesta directa a un usuario se considera de MUY MALA educación. Es como estar en una reunión entre varias personas, y que dos se pongan a "secretear" entre ellos. Y también es válido responder entre párrafos cuando es conveniente mantener un orden en las respuestas a varias preguntas. JAP
Re: OT Top-posting y Bottom Posting
|No sabía que en esta lista hay un regla anti top-postng por eso lo hacía siempre, para mi es la forma natural de responder para mi es muy fácil seguir un hilo si se que tengo que hacerlo de abajo a arriba, pero lo más importante es que nos pongamos de acuerdo, ya que el verdadero desbarajuste y las complicaciones a la hora de leer y organizar discusiones vienen cuanto unos lo hacemos de una manera y otros de otra.| |Posdata: ¿lo que acabo de hacer de borrar todo y responder a página en blanco está mal visto o rompe alguna regla?| |¿por que lo hago? Porque no respondo a nadie en particular sino tema del hilo que está bastante esparramado y si alguien no conoce el hilo y quiere ver antecedentes puede buscar por el tículo. | |Y la respuesta directa a un ||usuario||creo que la mayoría la ||consideramos||improcedente, ||creo que mailman pude bloquear esta posibilidad siempre que los correos estén ocultos en esta lista son públicos.| ||
Re: OT Top-posting y Bottom Posting
El 21/8/19 a las 12:38, Paynalton escribió: Hola a todos. En una sociedad monárquica, la ley refleja la voluntad del soberano, estando los súbditos que aceptan su autoridad a obedecer la ley para mantener el orden establecido por el monarca. En una sociedad democrática, al no existir un monarca, la ley se convierte en un pacto social en el que los individuos acuerdan normas de comportamiento para garantizar la estabilidad y la paz social. Ninguna ley es permanente, en la monarquía la ley cambia a voluntad del monarca y en la democracia cambia bajo acuerdos sociales. En Debian siempre ha imperado la democracia y, además de ser la mayor base tecnológica de nuestros tiempos, se ha convertido en un ejemplo de lo que una organización democrática bien organizada puede lograr. Siguiendo esta línea de razonamiento pongo sobre la mesa la siguiente discusión: La regla de Top Posting y Bottom-Posting fue establecida en un tiempo en que la mayoría de los usuarios Debian usábamos clientes sólo texto por su versatilidad, rapidez y muchas otras cosas que en su tiempo superaban a cualquier cliente gráfico. Sin embargo a más de una década desde entonces, además del avance en los clientes gráficos tenemos los clientes web, aplicaciones móviles, asistentes y demás tecnologías. En lo particular he notado que la tecnología ha virado para apoyar el Top-posting por encima del Bottom-posting, haciendo que quienes usamos estas tecnologías encontremos dificultad en esta práctica. Obviamente esto es sólo mi perspectiva, falta escuchar la de quienes siguen usando clientes sólo texto, invidentes y demás casos que yo no puedo contemplar. En concordancia con el espíritu democrático imperante en la comunidad, propongo que este tema sea sometido a debate y la realización de un ejercicio democrático para determinar el futuro de esta norma. Si un ave no rompe su huevo morirá antes de nacer. Nosotros somos el ave y el mundo es nuestro huevo. POR LA REVOLUCIÓN DEL MUNDO Ciudad de México El "bottom posting" facilita la lectura cuando uno lee hilos de problemas viejos. Y cuando uno empieza a pelearse con configuraciones de servidores en bajo nivel, lo viejo se impone a las GUI nuevas, que NUNCA llegan a hacer todo lo que es necesario hacer, por ejemplo, en una IPTABLES con tres redes en segmentos distintos, contrafuegos y demás. Además, el formato "sólo texto" ahorra datos en el archivo de correos; seamos solidarios. Por ejemplo, un Zeroshell corriendo en una máquina MUY vieja, y cuando digo, MUY, es MUY, fungiendo de contrafuegos, SIEMPRE es mejor acceder a funciones de bajo nivel. Me mantengo en "la antigua". JAP
OT Top-posting y Bottom Posting
Hola a todos. En una sociedad monárquica, la ley refleja la voluntad del soberano, estando los súbditos que aceptan su autoridad a obedecer la ley para mantener el orden establecido por el monarca. En una sociedad democrática, al no existir un monarca, la ley se convierte en un pacto social en el que los individuos acuerdan normas de comportamiento para garantizar la estabilidad y la paz social. Ninguna ley es permanente, en la monarquía la ley cambia a voluntad del monarca y en la democracia cambia bajo acuerdos sociales. En Debian siempre ha imperado la democracia y, además de ser la mayor base tecnológica de nuestros tiempos, se ha convertido en un ejemplo de lo que una organización democrática bien organizada puede lograr. Siguiendo esta línea de razonamiento pongo sobre la mesa la siguiente discusión: La regla de Top Posting y Bottom-Posting fue establecida en un tiempo en que la mayoría de los usuarios Debian usábamos clientes sólo texto por su versatilidad, rapidez y muchas otras cosas que en su tiempo superaban a cualquier cliente gráfico. Sin embargo a más de una década desde entonces, además del avance en los clientes gráficos tenemos los clientes web, aplicaciones móviles, asistentes y demás tecnologías. En lo particular he notado que la tecnología ha virado para apoyar el Top-posting por encima del Bottom-posting, haciendo que quienes usamos estas tecnologías encontremos dificultad en esta práctica. Obviamente esto es sólo mi perspectiva, falta escuchar la de quienes siguen usando clientes sólo texto, invidentes y demás casos que yo no puedo contemplar. En concordancia con el espíritu democrático imperante en la comunidad, propongo que este tema sea sometido a debate y la realización de un ejercicio democrático para determinar el futuro de esta norma. Si un ave no rompe su huevo morirá antes de nacer. Nosotros somos el ave y el mundo es nuestro huevo. POR LA REVOLUCIÓN DEL MUNDO Ciudad de México
Re: (OT) Top Posting (was Re: Gimp Babl too old)
Kenneth Parker writes: > I have a special issue: Using Gmail on a Phone or Tablet (I have > both). Both of those devices lack a proper keyboard. That makes them unsuitable for composing anything but very short messages, and wholly unsuitable for editing text. > Seriously, how do others of you deal with navigating this Debian List > on Android, while being a "Good Netizen"? I deal with it by never composing or editing messages without a proper keyboard. Handheld, full-touchscreen devices are fine as reading devices, and maybe for very limited gross-control input, but it's a mistake to try to use them as text editing devices until you connect a real keyboard. -- \ “I know you believe you understood what you think I said, but I | `\ am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I | _o__) meant.” —Robert J. McCloskey | Ben Finney
Re: (OT) Top Posting (was Re: Gimp Babl too old)
On Fri, Sep 14, 2018 at 6:17 AM, Kenneth Parker wrote: > Seriously, how do others of you deal with navigating this Debian List on > Android, while being a "Good Netizen"? Personally I don't. A phone is a horrible tool for composing texts and is nowhere near a replacement for a computer. Using an inferior tool is no excuse to inconvenience others. My pet peeve here is when people try to use the Stack Exchange app or whatever, and excuse the lousy formatting on "I'm on the phone", but thanks for pointing out another one: gmail top posting! It's bad enough in an an actual browser on a real computer... I loathe the "appification" of everything these days, dumbing down everything to the lowest lousiest common denominator for people who can only point and click with their thumbs. (I was about to write but I will never stop ranting about this!)
(OT) Top Posting (was Re: Gimp Babl too old)
On Thu, Sep 13, 2018 at 10:07 PM Ric Moore wrote: > > > > Same reason some people top post. They just ignore the conventions. > I have a special issue: Using Gmail on a Phone or Tablet (I have both). I have yet to find a Straightforward way to Snip lots of lines, using the Android App. Also, Gmail "hides" the lines from the prior responses in the Thread, making it *WAY* too easy to Top Post. (You have to touch a link to see them). So, since I "feel your Pain", I generally save my Debian Responses for, when I get home with, either my Debian 9 Laptop, my Ubuntu 16.04 Laptop (to be upgraded to Debian 9 in the next month), or the Chromebook I am typing on now. Seriously, how do others of you deal with navigating this Debian List on Android, while being a "Good Netizen"? Thank you and best regards, Kenneth Parker, Computer Consultant
Re: [OT] top-posting (was: unlisted mirrors & non-gui installation)
Hi. On Tue, 13 Oct 2015 18:31:27 -0300 Renaud (Ron) OLGIATI <ren...@olgiati-in-paraguay.org> wrote: > On Tue, 13 Oct 2015 23:16:03 +0300 > Reco <recovery...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > Hi. > > > > Please do not top post. And please do not send html e-mails to the list. > > > > On Tue, 13 Oct 2015 14:40:08 -0500 > > Adrian O'Dell <crimsonm...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > That is not what appears in Debian 8, netinst. Here is the one that > > > appears: > > > You preach by example ? ;-3) Only if the situation calls for it. This one did :) And the best place for a friendly advice about top-posting is at the top. Reco
Re: top posting
http://lists.alioth.debian.org/pipermail/d-community-offtopic/2013-November/000303.html -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/1385024914.686.78.camel@archlinux
Re: top posting
On Thu, 21 Nov 2013 11:08:41 +1100 David bouncingc...@gmail.com wrote: On 21 November 2013 10:31, Brad Alexander stor...@gmail.com wrote: I'm just curious why so many people get so upset about top posting. When you're curious about anything, use a search engine, like I used to find this for you: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Posting_style Especially if the thing you are curious about is a question that has been asked a billion times already. scrolling to the bottom of each and every message is more of a pain than if a respondent posts at the top of the message. Trim to give the minimum context, and interleave replies, like this. Like a conversation. No scrolling required. And please forgive me for starting this. No. It is clearly off-topic for this list. Mostly, but not completely, this is a technical newsgroup, unlike many others. Questions can be asked and answered here, and indeed that is its purpose. Reasonable quoting and replying behaviour helps not just the person asking the question, but others who may be looking for the same answer years later. It is reasonable to assume that almost anything published on the Net will survive forever. -- Joe -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20131121090912.13c6a...@jretrading.com
Re: top posting
Kelly, On a related note, something is wrong with your MUA and quoting. Here's a section of the quoting from your last message, with an additional layer of quoting applied, and trimmed to 20 characters (to avoid further wrapping issues): I'm just curious so upset about top p mind, as threads not want All of that text originated from the same message, but your mailer has variably applied either zero or two levels of quoting (and thrown a few extra new lines in for good measure). -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20131121095908.ga26...@bryant.redmars.org
Re: Google other web mail (was Re: top posting)
David Guntner da...@guntner.com wrote: GMail Yahoo Mail both support encrypted POP3 IMAP [...] I don't have to look at their ads since I'm not using their web interface [...] How long do you think it's going to be before they start inserting ads into the message body then? (And/or offering a premium service that doesn't.) Or including messages that are actually just adverts (that way they're not altering the message body). Oh, did someone say spam? Chris -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/bs11maxblm@news.roaima.co.uk
top posting
I'm just curious why so many people get so upset about top posting. To my mind, as threads get longer, those keeping up with the thread would not want to scroll through messages that they have already read. I know that I don't. If they are commenting inline, that is fine, but I think that scrolling to the bottom of each and every message is more of a pain than if a respondent posts at the top of the message. And please forgive me for starting this. Thoughts?
Re: top posting
The usual objection to top posting is that it destroys the logical flow of the conversation (and no doubt someone will post a conversation in reverse order to illustrate the point). But I agree with you, and for years read my email in reverse chronological order precisely so that I could save time getting to the bottom line (at the top), so to speak. That said, this list's protocol requires inline or bottom posting (which I've just violated for obvious reasons), as is the case on most technical lists. Every one of the academic lists I have ever been on prefers (based on practice, at least) top posting. Go figure. Patrick On Wed, Nov 20, 2013 at 6:31 PM, Brad Alexander stor...@gmail.com wrote: I'm just curious why so many people get so upset about top posting. To my mind, as threads get longer, those keeping up with the thread would not want to scroll through messages that they have already read. I know that I don't. If they are commenting inline, that is fine, but I think that scrolling to the bottom of each and every message is more of a pain than if a respondent posts at the top of the message. And please forgive me for starting this. Thoughts? -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/CAJVvKsNU=QGFmjdD6=8dpn2lgywfhg0n0wocqvhsu6sea9x...@mail.gmail.com
Re: top posting
On Wed, Nov 20, 2013 at 3:40 PM, Patrick Wiseman pwise...@gmail.com wrote: The usual objection to top posting is that it destroys the logical flow of the conversation (and no doubt someone will post a conversation in reverse order to illustrate the point). But I agree with you, and for years read my email in reverse chronological order precisely so that I could save time getting to the bottom line (at the top), so to speak. That said, this list's protocol requires inline or bottom posting (which I've just violated for obvious reasons), as is the case on most technical lists. Every one of the academic lists I have ever been on prefers (based on practice, at least) top posting. Go figure. Patrick On Wed, Nov 20, 2013 at 6:31 PM, Brad Alexander stor...@gmail.com wrote: I'm just curious why so many people get so upset about top posting. To my mind, as threads get longer, those keeping up with the thread would not want to scroll through messages that they have already read. I know that I don't. If they are commenting inline, that is fine, but I think that scrolling to the bottom of each and every message is more of a pain than if a respondent posts at the top of the message. And please forgive me for starting this. Thoughts?
Re: top posting
Brad Alexander grabbed a keyboard and wrote: I'm just curious why so many people get so upset about top posting. To my mind, as threads get longer, those keeping up with the thread would not want to scroll through messages that they have already read. I know that I don't. If they are commenting inline, that is fine, but I think that scrolling to the bottom of each and every message is more of a pain than if a respondent posts at the top of the message. https://wiki.debian.org/FAQsFromDebianUser#What_is_top-posting_.28and_why_shouldn.27t_I_do_it.29.3F People shouldn't be bottom posting the way you describe, either. Long-standing (literally decades-old) conventions for E-Mail have used the quote-and-reply style for maintaining the flow of a conversation. This is especially important on a mailing list, where many people can contribute to a given conversation. It's also a part of that long-standing convention that as a conversation grows larger, you're also supposed to trim out the parts of the text which no longer pertain to what you're replying to (keeping in enough for relevance while getting rid of stuff that is no longer part of the discussion). That is also, sadly, something that a lot of people don't get. But it's not as disruptive to the conversation as suddenly throwing comments on top of an existing conversation flow instead of interspersed with the rest of them. Top posting is even more disruptive when it's thrown in at the top of an existing conversation where people have been quoting and adding their comments among the quoted text. It's just plain lazy and is disrespectful of the other people in the conversation. Given that this topic really isn't specific to Debian, it's probably best if you take the conversation regarding it to the off-topic list: http://lists.alioth.debian.org/mailman/listinfo/d-community-offtopic --Dave smime.p7s Description: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature
Re: top posting
Kelly, according to the rules of posting on this mailing list, you should've posted that empty comment at the bottom ;) On Thu, Nov 21, 2013 at 10:24 AM, Kelly Clowers kelly.clow...@gmail.comwrote: On Wed, Nov 20, 2013 at 3:40 PM, Patrick Wiseman pwise...@gmail.comwrote: The usual objection to top posting is that it destroys the logical flow of the conversation (and no doubt someone will post a conversation in reverse order to illustrate the point). But I agree with you, and for years read my email in reverse chronological order precisely so that I could save time getting to the bottom line (at the top), so to speak. That said, this list's protocol requires inline or bottom posting (which I've just violated for obvious reasons), as is the case on most technical lists. Every one of the academic lists I have ever been on prefers (based on practice, at least) top posting. Go figure. Patrick On Wed, Nov 20, 2013 at 6:31 PM, Brad Alexander stor...@gmail.com wrote: I'm just curious why so many people get so upset about top posting. To my mind, as threads get longer, those keeping up with the thread would not want to scroll through messages that they have already read. I know that I don't. If they are commenting inline, that is fine, but I think that scrolling to the bottom of each and every message is more of a pain than if a respondent posts at the top of the message. And please forgive me for starting this. Thoughts?
Re: top posting
On 21 November 2013 10:31, Brad Alexander stor...@gmail.com wrote: I'm just curious why so many people get so upset about top posting. When you're curious about anything, use a search engine, like I used to find this for you: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Posting_style Especially if the thing you are curious about is a question that has been asked a billion times already. scrolling to the bottom of each and every message is more of a pain than if a respondent posts at the top of the message. Trim to give the minimum context, and interleave replies, like this. Like a conversation. No scrolling required. And please forgive me for starting this. No. It is clearly off-topic for this list. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/CAMPXz=pUUEaXjA3oSMYUYxO9q7=cjyu9mzuvtzvix0xyf5+...@mail.gmail.com
Re: top posting
On Wed, Nov 20, 2013 at 3:40 PM, Patrick Wiseman pwise...@gmail.com wrote: The usual objection to top posting is that it destroys the logical flow of the conversation (and no doubt someone will post a conversation in reverse order to illustrate the point). snip On Wed, Nov 20, 2013 at 6:31 PM, Brad Alexander stor...@gmail.com wrote: I'm just curious why so many people get so upset about top posting. To my mind, as threads get longer, those keeping up with the thread would not want to scroll through messages that they have already read. I know that I don't. If they are commenting inline, that is fine, but I think that scrolling to the bottom of each and every message is more of a pain than if a respondent posts at the top of the message. And please forgive me for starting this. Thoughts? Excuse the other message, slip of the finger... The thing is, when bottom posting, you are supposed to trim out bits that don't matter to your response, and often you have inline comments as well, as you said. I prefer bottom posting, but I give up and top post in corporate environments, as it is just too much effort to fight the inevitable there. Likewise, there is little point fighting against bottom posting on a technical list such as this one, where most everyone prefers bottom posting. Especially since most everywhere else they get top posting pushed on them, probably making them cling harder to bottom posting where they can. Cheers, Kelly
Re: top posting
On 11/20/2013 06:31 PM, Brad Alexander wrote: I'm just curious why so many people get so upset about top posting. To my mind, as threads get longer, those keeping up with the thread would not want to scroll through messages that they have already read. I know that I don't. If they are commenting inline, that is fine, but I think that scrolling to the bottom of each and every message is more of a pain than if a respondent posts at the top of the message. And please forgive me for starting this. Thoughts? If the responder(s) clip the files to leave only the salient points, the files will not be so long as to bore you enroute. However, it does not help to clip _everything_ and just reply Yes, that's the way. I have seen some replies like that--_useless_! --doug -- Blessed are the peacemakers..for they shall be shot at from both sides. --A.M.Greeley -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/528d543f.5070...@optonline.net
Re: top posting
On Wed, Nov 20, 2013 at 6:59 PM, David Guntner da...@guntner.com wrote: Brad Alexander grabbed a keyboard and wrote: I'm just curious why so many people get so upset about top posting. To my mind, as threads get longer, those keeping up with the thread would not want to scroll through messages that they have already read. I know that I don't. If they are commenting inline, that is fine, but I think that scrolling to the bottom of each and every message is more of a pain than if a respondent posts at the top of the message. https://wiki.debian.org/FAQsFromDebianUser#What_is_top-posting_.28and_why_shouldn.27t_I_do_it.29.3F People shouldn't be bottom posting the way you describe, either. Long-standing (literally decades-old) conventions for E-Mail have used the quote-and-reply style for maintaining the flow of a conversation. This is especially important on a mailing list, where many people can contribute to a given conversation. Actually, I can see the point of posting inline, however, leave it to google and other mail apps to go and ruin it. In the gmail web interface, when you reply to an email or even a thread, you get the text entry box, with the message you are responding to hidden by a ... icon. Thus, if you are not paying attention or are trying to respond quickly, it is easily overlooked. I posted in a thread earlier, and was surprised when someone started their response with don't top post. I didn't even realize I had, thanks again to google. It's also a part of that long-standing convention that as a conversation grows larger, you're also supposed to trim out the parts of the text which no longer pertain to what you're replying to (keeping in enough for relevance while getting rid of stuff that is no longer part of the discussion). That is also, sadly, something that a lot of people don't get. But it's not as disruptive to the conversation as suddenly throwing comments on top of an existing conversation flow instead of interspersed with the rest of them. Top posting is even more disruptive when it's thrown in at the top of an existing conversation where people have been quoting and adding their comments among the quoted text. It's just plain lazy and is disrespectful of the other people in the conversation. All right, I can understand and respect that. Given that this topic really isn't specific to Debian, it's probably best if you take the conversation regarding it to the off-topic list: http://lists.alioth.debian.org/mailman/listinfo/d-community-offtopic --Dave
Google other web mail (was Re: top posting)
Brad Alexander grabbed a keyboard and wrote: Actually, I can see the point of posting inline, however, leave it to google and other mail apps to go and ruin it. In the gmail web interface, when you reply to an email or even a thread, you get the text entry box, with the message you are responding to hidden by a ... icon. Thus, if you are not paying attention or are trying to respond quickly, it is easily overlooked. I posted in a thread earlier, and was surprised when someone started their response with don't top post. I didn't even realize I had, thanks again to google. In case you were unaware of it, GMail Yahoo Mail both support encrypted POP3 IMAP access to your mail, so you can use the E-Mail client of your choice if you want to. I use Thunderbird with my both my GMail and Yahoo mail accounts and it works just fine. That way I can easily do quote-and-reply properly, and I don't have to look at their ads since I'm not using their web interface. Bonus! :-) If you want to know how to configure a mail program for use with your GMail account, feel free to contact me off-list (since that's really not a Debian thing; I don't want to clutter up the list with that discussion). --Dave smime.p7s Description: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature
[Fwd: [D-community-offtopic] Outrageous sexism - dump questions - carbon copy - ignoring hidden ids - HTML - top posting - brainstorming - etc.]
Perhaps the Debian user informers and vigilante group could continue the noise at http://lists.alioth.debian.org/mailman/listinfo/d-community-offtopic ?! Forwarded Message From: Ralf Mardorf ralf.mard...@alice-dsl.net To: d-community-offto...@lists.alioth.debian.org Subject: [D-community-offtopic] Outrageous sexism - dump questions - carbon copy - ignoring hidden ids - HTML - top posting - brainstorming - etc. Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2012 12:06:26 +0100 Is there anything people are else allowed on Debian user mailing list, besides dissing people for harmless jokes, breaking threads, asking the wrong questions, carbon copy, brainstorming etc.? All off-topic is caused by people who feel offended by harmless jokes, breaking threads, asking the wrong questions, carbon copy, brainstorming etc., not by the people who make harmless jokes, are breaking threads, asking the wrong questions, carbon copy, brainstorm etc.. What's their intention? Increasing the S/N ratio and blame others for their bad? Regards, Ralf ___ D-community-offtopic mailing list d-community-offto...@lists.alioth.debian.org http://lists.alioth.debian.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/d-community-offtopic -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/1353582859.27586.11.camel@q
Re: [Fwd: [D-community-offtopic] Outrageous sexism - dump questions - carbon copy - ignoring hidden ids - HTML - top posting - brainstorming - etc.]
On Thu, Nov 22, 2012 at 12:14:19PM +0100, Ralf Mardorf wrote: snip All off-topic is caused by people who feel offended by harmless jokes, breaking threads, asking the wrong questions, carbon copy, brainstorming etc., not by the people who make harmless jokes, are breaking threads, asking the wrong questions, carbon copy, brainstorm etc.. Perhaps you should re-examine your assumption that offensive behavior is harmless as well as the assumption that 'people who make harmless jokes, ...' are not responsible for the responses. Mike -- People hardly ever make use of the freedom they have, for example, freedom of thought; instead they demand freedom of speech as a compensation. - Soren Kierkegaard -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20121122204943.GC24102@playground
[OT] Sobre el top-posting, correos html y los privados
Hola Si me dieran 1 centavo por cada vez que leo lo del top-posting, los correos en html y los privados en la lista no tendría problemas financieros por el resto de mi vida :) Las normativas de la lista son claras al respecto: 1- Evitar el uso de HTML 2- Evitar el top-posting 3- Evitar los privados Pero. ¿Tantos correos sobre lo mismo? (incluido este) s...@lu2 Walber -- JHS/o +-===| (o_ //\Linux Registered User V_/_ #480598 () ascii ribbon campaign - against html e-mail /\ www.asciiribbon.org - against proprietary attachments -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-spanish-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: [OT] Sobre el top-posting, correos html y los privados
Walber Zaldivar Herrera escribió: Hola Si me dieran 1 centavo por cada vez que leo lo del top-posting, los correos en html y los privados en la lista no tendría problemas financieros por el resto de mi vida :) Las normativas de la lista son claras al respecto: 1- Evitar el uso de HTML 2- Evitar el top-posting 3- Evitar los privados Pero. ¿Tantos correos sobre lo mismo? (incluido este) s...@lu2 Walber Y por si a alguien le queda dudas, http://download.bblug.usla.org.ar/netiquette.png JAP -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-spanish-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: [OT] Sobre el top-posting, correos html y los privados
On Mar 01 Dic 2009 14:16:16 JAP escribió: Walber Zaldivar Herrera escribió: Hola Si me dieran 1 centavo por cada vez que leo lo del top-posting, los correos en html y los privados en la lista no tendría problemas financieros por el resto de mi vida :) Las normativas de la lista son claras al respecto: 1- Evitar el uso de HTML 2- Evitar el top-posting 3- Evitar los privados Pero. ¿Tantos correos sobre lo mismo? (incluido este) s...@lu2 Walber Y por si a alguien le queda dudas, http://download.bblug.usla.org.ar/netiquette.png JAP ¿Me puedo reir? ¿O hay tabla? Yo agregaría en los reglamentos el uso de español como corresponde, con ñ, ', ¿ y ¡. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-spanish-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: [OT] Sobre el top-posting, correos html y los privados
Estimados nuevos (o newbies, si prefieren el inglés). Son todos bienvenidos a hacer cualquier tipo de pregunta en esta lista, siempre y cuando vuestras preguntas cumplan estos requisitos: Se note que hayan leído las “netiquettes”, o normas de convivencias. Si no lo hicieron, háganlo en http://wiki.debian.org/NormasLista?highlight=(netiquett) Formulen la pregunta de tal manera que denote que se han esforzado en solucionar el problema ustedes mismos, que se han tomado el trabajo de documentarse, y más aún, se han tomado el trabajo de hacer la pregunta lo más comprensible para el resto de los usuarios. Si no saben cómo hacerlo, pueden leer esto aunque sea una vez: http://www.sindominio.net/ayuda/preguntas-inteligentes.html Sobre todo, antes que nada, hacer una buena búsqueda de lo que uno necesita en internet ¡Google es tu amigo! Lo principal, ir a la página http://www.google.com.ar/linux donde aparecerá un simpático pingüinito (no como un tuerto que tenemos por estas pampas), que nos ayudará a resolver el problema. Por ejemplo, ¿queremos saber cómo recuperar GRUB luego de haber hecho una instalación de Windows en una partición? Fácil: en esa página ingresamos en el campo de búsqueda: INSTALAR GRUB LUEGO DE WINDOWS y tendremos ¡111.000 respuestas! ¿No es maravilloso? Y si queremos ver si algo de eso se habló en esta lista, la búsqueda se puede hacer en la página http://lists.debian.org/search.html No es difícil ¿no? Ahora bien, si desean ser ignorados por el resto de la lista, hagan preguntas del tipo: ¡¡¡AYUDA SE ME ROMPIÓ EL KDM!!! ¿Quién sabe cómo configurar exim para un servidor? (y nada más.) Por comentar, nada más. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-spanish-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: [OT] Sobre el top-posting, correos html y los privados
JAP escribió: Y por si a alguien le queda dudas, http://download.bblug.usla.org.ar/netiquette.png JAP Jajajajajajajajajajajajajaja :) :) :) s...@lu2 Walber -- JHS/o +-===| (o_ //\Linux Registered User V_/_ #480598 () ascii ribbon campaign - against html e-mail /\ www.asciiribbon.org - against proprietary attachments -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-spanish-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
¿Qué es top-posting y cross-posting?
-- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-spanish-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: ¿Qué es top-posting y cross-posting?
2009/3/30, santilin sa...@gestiong.org: -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-spanish-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org wikipedia es tu amiga ;) http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Top-posting http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Env%C3%ADo_cruzado (o en inglés: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crossposting ) -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-spanish-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: ¿Qué es top-posting y cross-posting?
santilin escribió: Top-posting es contestar arriba del mensaje respondido en vez de abajo, cosa que hace incómoda la lectura: http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Top-posting Cross-posting es preguntar lo mismo en varias listas, lo que ocasiona cierta mescolanza cuando alguien responde: http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crossposting Saludos -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-spanish-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: mutt tip (was ... Re: Top posting vs Bottom posting)
2009/3/28 Chris Jones cjns1...@gmail.com On Fri, Mar 27, 2009 at 05:48:10AM EDT, Chris Bannister wrote: I was asking one of the top-posting advocates to elaborate on archaic mail readers .. written in the 1980s .. I believe he wrote.. I would assume he is not using one himself .. but then who knows.. That would be me and I use Gmail like 300 million other people. I'm also not an advocate of top posting (note, I don't top post). I do, however, think that people who rail against it are stuck in the dark ages of computing (and should probably spend their time worrying about something more important). -- Chris
Re: Top posting vs Bottom posting
On Tue, Mar 24, 2009 at 01:30:15PM +, Bob Cox wrote: On Wed, Mar 25, 2009 at 01:06:11 +1300, Chris Bannister (mockingb...@earthlight.co.nz) wrote: [...] It was mentioned that inline posting and deleting unnecessary text is a better method, but that was shrugged off as being too confusing. :o So in that situation I was happier[2] seeing a silly top posting message. [2] Only because I didn't have to press space a dozen or so times. As you use mutt, 'S' should skip to the end of each section of quoted text, or, if you know there is no interleaved quoting, just press the 'End' key to go right to the bottom ;-) Yeah, of course ... oops. Also 'T' toggle-quoted. Although on dial-up, its still a pain downloading all that unnecessary extra redundant data. -- Chris. == I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours. -- Stephen F Roberts -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: Top posting vs Bottom posting
On Fri, Mar 27, 2009 at 05:48:26AM EDT, Chris Bannister wrote: On Mon, Mar 23, 2009 at 06:11:38PM -0400, Chris Jones wrote: Now then.. I have two bottom posters .. and one top poster.. OK. What do I do? Snip out the irrelevant bits. Do you use vim as your editor? If so you can put a number before the 'dd' command: 40dd will delete 40 lines. Are you kidding.. me, count 40 lines accurately..? :-) I hit V to enter visual mode .. move cursor to the end of what I want to delete and hit d. But that's not what I meant anyway. CJ -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: mutt tip (was ... Re: Top posting vs Bottom posting)
On Fri, Mar 27, 2009 at 05:48:10AM EDT, Chris Bannister wrote:
On Mon, Mar 23, 2009 at 06:08:35PM -0400, Chris Jones wrote:
What mailer are you referring to? I use mutt and it threads messages
reliably, flagging malformed mails that it adds to a thread when it
You can see what mailer he is using if you put in your .muttrc:
I was asking one of the top-posting advocates to elaborate on archaic
mail readers .. written in the 1980s .. I believe he wrote..
I would assume he is not using one himself .. but then who knows..
-
# What headers are displayed
ignore *
unignore From Date Subject To Cc User-agent X-Mailer
Something has to set User-agent and/or X-Mailer.. and a quick look at
the list - I keep my headers to a minimum and hit h whenever I want to
display them all - gives me over 50% posts that do not have either of
these set.
# What order the headers are displayed
unhdr_order *
hdr_order X-Mailer User-agent From Date To Cc Subject
--
and for added spice create a ~/configs/colours file.
You will need to source the file in your .muttrc, i.e.:
Here's my effort:
# -*- muttrc -*-
#
# Color settings for mutt.
#
# Default color definitions
color normal color250 default
color hdrdefault color136 default
color quoted color244 default
color quoted1color240 default
color quoted2color236 default
color quoted3color244 default
color quoted4color240 default
color quoted5color236 default
color signature color254 default
color indicator color231 color233
color error color88 default
color status black color245
color tree color240 default
color tilde black default
color attachment brightyellow default
color markerscolor240 default
color messagecolor250 default
color search color231 color233
color bold color231 default
# Color definitions when on a mono screen
mono boldbold
mono underline underline
mono indicator reverse
mono error bold
# Colors for message headers
color header color231 default ^(From|Subject):
color header color231 default ^To:
color header color231 default ^Cc:
mono header bold ^(From|Subject):
# This is a mess. What happens when a message is flagged twice?
# reset index to medium grey
color index color242 default
# regular new messages
color index color145 default ~O | ~N
# regular 'old' messages
#color index color145 default ~N
# regular tagged messages
color index color184 default ~T
# regular flagged messages
color index color185 default ~F
# messages to myself
color index color221 default ~p
# messages from myself
color index color221 default ~P
# big messages - don't see much point for this one
#color index color52 default ~z 32765-
# deleted messages
color index color160 default ~D
# Highlights inside the body of a message.
# Attribution lines
color body color208 default \\* [^]+ [^]+ \\[[^]]+\\]:
color body color208 default (^|[^[:alnum:]])on [a-z0-9 ,]+( at [a-z0-9:,.
+-]+)? wrote:
# The TOFU
#color body color231 default \[\-\-\-\=\|
color body color231 default TOFU
# Highlights inside the body of a message.
# URLs
color body color231default (http|https|ftp|news|telnet|finger)://[^
\\t\r\n]*
color body color231default mailto:[-a-z_0-9...@[-a-z_0-9.]+;
mono body bold(http|https|ftp|news|telnet|finger)://[^
\\t\r\n]*
mono body boldmailto:[-a-z_0-9...@[-a-z_0-9.]+;
# email addresses
color body color231default [-a-z_0-9.%...@[-a-z_0-9.]+\\.[-a-z][-a-z]+
mono body bold[-a-z_0-9.%...@[-a-z_0-9.]+\\.[-a-z][-a-z]+
# PGP messages
color bodycolor84 default ^gpg: Good signature .*
color bodycolor250default ^gpg:
color bodycolor88 default ^gpg: BAD signature from.*
mono bodybold^gpg: Good signature
mono bodybold^gpg: BAD signature from.*
# Various smilies and the like
color body color220default [Gg]# g
color body color220default [Bb][Gg]# bg
color body color220default [;:]-*[}){(|] # :-) etc...
# *bold*
color body color231default
(^|[[:space:][:punct:]])\\*[^*]+\\*([[:space:][:punct:]]|$)
mono body bold
(^|[[:space:][:punct:]])\\*[^*]+\\*([[:space:][:punct:]]|$)
# _underline_
color body color231default
(^|[[:space:][:punct:]])_[^_]+_([[:space:][:punct:]]|$)
mono body underline
(^|[[:space:][:punct:]])_[^_]+_([[:space:][:punct:]]|$)
# /italic/ (Sometimes gets directory names)
color body color231 default
(^|[[:space:][:punct:]])/[^/]+/([[:space:][:punct:]]|$)
mono body underline
(^|[[:space:][:punct:]])/[^/]+/([[:space:][:punct:]]|$)
# Border lines.
color body
Re: Top posting vs Bottom posting
On Sun, Mar 22, 2009 at 01:04:54PM -0500, John Hasler wrote: Chris Bannister wrote: Bottom posting of course is just as bad or worse than top posting. No. You obviously should middle post as I have done here: find the median line and insert your comments is the center of it, splitting a word if necessary. I thought my comment implied that. :( -- Chris. == I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours. -- Stephen F Roberts -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: Top posting vs Bottom posting
On Sun, Mar 22, 2009 at 10:43:28AM -0700, Robert Holtzman wrote: On Mon, 23 Mar 2009, Chris Bannister wrote: Bottom posting of course is just as bad or worse than top posting. Then, of course, it follows that not posting at all is ideal. I *should* have said: Without triming bottom posting is just as bad or worse than top posting due to having to scroll to read the reply. The remark Bottom posting of course is just as bad or worse than top posting. was to a post which stated something along the lines of sorry, I mean't bottom posting is the policy for the debian-user list which he wrote after mistakenly saying top posting is the policy for the debian-user list Sorry everyone for the confusion. -- Chris. == I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours. -- Stephen F Roberts -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
mutt tip (was ... Re: Top posting vs Bottom posting)
On Mon, Mar 23, 2009 at 06:08:35PM -0400, Chris Jones wrote:
What mailer are you referring to? I use mutt and it threads messages
reliably, flagging malformed mails that it adds to a thread when it
You can see what mailer he is using if you put in your .muttrc:
-
# What headers are displayed
ignore *
unignore From Date Subject To Cc User-agent X-Mailer
# What order the headers are displayed
unhdr_order *
hdr_order X-Mailer User-agent From Date To Cc Subject
--
and for added spice create a ~/configs/colours file.
You will need to source the file in your .muttrc, i.e.:
.muttrc ---
source ~/configs/colours
~/configs/colours
## MUTT COLORS
# valid colors : white, black, green, magenta,
#blue, cyan, yellow, red,
# Each color comes in plain (red) and bright (brightred)
# color thisthing foreground background [arguments]
color normalwhite default
color attachment black cyan
color hdrdefault cyan default
color indicator black green
color markers red default
color index green default ~N # New
color index magenta yellow ~T # Tagged
color index red default ~D # Deleted
color index blue default ~O# Old
#color index red white '~f cron'
#color index red white '~f Anacron'
#color index brightyellow black ~b '\ name.{0,9}\=.{2,30}\.zip'
#color index red yellow '~f root'
color quoted blue default
color quoted1 green default
color quoted2 magenta default
color quoted3 yellow default
color header blue default ^X-Spam-Status:
color header blue default ^X-Spam-Status:
color signature red cyan
color status yellow blue
color tilde blue default
color tree red default
color header blue default ^User-agent:
color header blue default ^From:
color header blue default ^To:
color header blue default ^Date:
color header blue default ^Reply-To:
color header blue default ^Cc:
color header red default ^Subject:
color body red default [\-\.+_a-za-z0-...@[\-\.a-za-z0-9]+
color body blue default (https?|ftp)://[\-\.,/%~_:?=\#a-zA-Z0-9]+
# Errors will be printed in red:
color error brightred brightdefault
# GPG/PGP related color directives:
#mono bodybold^gpg: Good signature
#mono bodyreverse ^gpg: Bad signature from.*
#color bodybrightblack cyan ^gpg: Signature made.*
#color bodybrightblack green ^gpg: Good signature from.*
#color bodybrightblack yellow^gpg: Can't check signature
.*
#color bodybrightblack yellow^gpg: WARNING: .*
#color bodybrightwhite red ^gpg: BAD signature from.*
(sorry, if it wraps. I have vga=791 in my /boot/grub/menu.lst, and dont
have any prob. Those colours may not be suitable in an X terminal.)
--
Chris.
==
I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god
than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other
possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours.
-- Stephen F Roberts
--
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org
with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: Top posting vs Bottom posting
On Mon, Mar 23, 2009 at 06:11:38PM -0400, Chris Jones wrote: Now then.. I have two bottom posters .. and one top poster.. OK. What do I do? Snip out the irrelevant bits. Do you use vim as your editor? If so you can put a number before the 'dd' command: 40dd will delete 40 lines. -- Chris. == I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours. -- Stephen F Roberts -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: Top posting vs Bottom posting
On Sun, Mar 22, 2009 at 11:40:14AM -0500, Ron Johnson wrote: On 2009-03-22 11:45, Chris Bannister wrote: Bottom posting of course is just as bad or worse than top posting. The only person who can say that with a straight face is one who has spent too much time using Windows. Or who reads quite a lot of mail from outhouse users. At least with top posting you don't have to scroll through _all_ the previous posts just to see if the reply is relevant. The problem isn't bottom-posting, it's... More importantly, IMHO is deleting any text which is not relevant. This. Which should be done whether you top- or bottom-post. It's just that with top-posting it's easy to forget to snip out all the crud. Good point!, but I regret it is more to do with laziness and this throw away and damn the consequences[1] way of life. :( One of the mailing lists I am on suffers horribly from top posters, the same software is also availabe for windoze. The admin occassionaly posts a message saying along the lines of bottom posting is the preferred method ... with the consequence that each post grows + grows + grows until it gets really annoying scrolling just to read some silly remark. It was mentioned that inline posting and deleting unnecessary text is a better method, but that was shrugged off as being too confusing. :o So in that situation I was happier[2] seeing a silly top posting message. [1] Remembering the story of the Big Mac which was forgotten about in a cupboard and when the person noticed it there a year or so later it looked just as fresh as the day it was purchased - no sign of decay ... nothing, not even the rodents etc. had bothered it. [2] Only because I didn't have to press space a dozen or so times. -- Chris. == I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours. -- Stephen F Roberts -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: Top posting vs Bottom posting
On 2009-03-24 07:06, Chris Bannister wrote: On Sun, Mar 22, 2009 at 11:40:14AM -0500, Ron Johnson wrote: On 2009-03-22 11:45, Chris Bannister wrote: Bottom posting of course is just as bad or worse than top posting. The only person who can say that with a straight face is one who has spent too much time using Windows. Or who reads quite a lot of mail from outhouse users. At least with top posting you don't have to scroll through _all_ the previous posts just to see if the reply is relevant. The problem isn't bottom-posting, it's... More importantly, IMHO is deleting any text which is not relevant. This. Which should be done whether you top- or bottom-post. It's just that with top-posting it's easy to forget to snip out all the crud. Good point!, but I regret it is more to do with laziness and this throw away and damn the consequences[1] way of life. :( [snip] [2] Only because I didn't have to press space a dozen or so times. Yet another reason for in-/bottom-posting with context: finding the email that it is replying to can be a bit tricky. http://members.cox.net/ron.l.johnson/Far_away_replies.png -- Ron Johnson, Jr. Jefferson LA USA Freedom is not a license for anarchy. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: Top posting vs Bottom posting
On Wed, Mar 25, 2009 at 01:06:11 +1300, Chris Bannister (mockingb...@earthlight.co.nz) wrote: [...] It was mentioned that inline posting and deleting unnecessary text is a better method, but that was shrugged off as being too confusing. :o So in that situation I was happier[2] seeing a silly top posting message. [2] Only because I didn't have to press space a dozen or so times. As you use mutt, 'S' should skip to the end of each section of quoted text, or, if you know there is no interleaved quoting, just press the 'End' key to go right to the bottom ;-) -- Bob Cox. Stoke Gifford, near Bristol, UK. Please reply to the list only. Do NOT send copies directly to me. Debian on the NSLU2: http://bobcox.com/slug/ -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: Top posting vs Bottom posting
On Tue,24.Mar.09, 13:30:15, Bob Cox wrote: On Wed, Mar 25, 2009 at 01:06:11 +1300, Chris Bannister (mockingb...@earthlight.co.nz) wrote: [...] It was mentioned that inline posting and deleting unnecessary text is a better method, but that was shrugged off as being too confusing. :o So in that situation I was happier[2] seeing a silly top posting message. [2] Only because I didn't have to press space a dozen or so times. As you use mutt, 'S' should skip to the end of each section of quoted text, or, if you know there is no interleaved quoting, just press the 'End' key to go right to the bottom ;-) skip-quoted by itself is a bit annoying as it doesn't show the last few lines (which should have relevant context). I prefer this: macro index,pager s skip-quotedhalf-up (I use S for save) There is also parent-message (jump to parent message, P by default) but you can't jump back :/ Regards, Andrei -- If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough. (Albert Einstein) signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Top posting vs Bottom posting
Christofer C. Bell wrote: On Mon, Mar 23, 2009 at 9:48 AM, Barclay, Daniel dan...@fgm.com mailto:dan...@fgm.com wrote: Christofer C. Bell wrote: Mail 1: Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? Mail 2: A: Top-posting. Mail 3: Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? Mail 4: A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text. Wrong. Since when does even a threaded mail reader rearrange the content within a single message into a different order? It doesn't, and you're splitting hairs. No, I'm not. You're presenting unclear and/or unrealistic examples, and I'm calling you on it. In a threaded mail reader, I've just read the previous post, there is zero need to provide context. That's only true if you haven't deleted the previous messages. If you've read a thread, deleted the messages you've read, and then come back later, you have no context via your mail reader. That's when you want some context in each message. This is what it looks like in a threaded mail reader when you're bottom posting: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? Top-posting. What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? Top-posting. Why is top-posting such a bad thing? What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? Top-posting. Why is top-posting such a bad thing? Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text. This sort of display is annoying. Again, your example is ambiguous and misleading (since the display never shows the above sequence (at any given time)). Apparently you're also talking about the _sequence_ of displays as you read through the messages. Yes, if each message quotes every previous message in its entirety, it is annoying, as you claim. However, proper replying cuts the quoted text down to just what is needed to provide sufficient context. Obviously there's a judgment call there, but don't think thate completely untrimmed quoting is what bottom-posting proponents are arguing for. Imagine a business letter in reply to a previous letter, in particular the stereotypical wording Regarding your letter of date about subject: ... That's the type of thing bottom-posters are arguing for: A reference (via simply quoting, rather than rewording like the Regarding your ... in a letter) to what's being replied to, but not the entire previous message. I understand the other Chris' example just fine. Do you understand mine? Of course not. You construct them too ambiguously. Daniel -- (Plain text sometimes corrupted to HTML courtesy of Microsoft Exchange.) [F]
Re: Top posting vs Bottom posting
Not all cultures have the same idea of manners. Another example, all cultures have the similar ideas about stealing, but not so about art. Somethings just have to be, others we can pick. On Sunday 22 March 2009 13:18:44 Ron Johnson wrote: On 2009-03-22 12:27, Jesus Arocho wrote: Hee, Hee; are you trying to humiliate people into using bottom posting by associating them with use of Windows? The debate of top/bottom posting is much alike elbows on/off the table, burp/not burp after a meal, etc, Hmmm. Manners or No Manners; it's an easy choice. Bottom posting of course is just as bad or worse than top posting. The only person who can say that with a straight face is one who has spent too much time using Windows. -- Ron Johnson, Jr. Jefferson LA USA Freedom is not a license for anarchy. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: Top posting vs Bottom posting
On Sunday 22 March 2009 23:07:29 Dave Patterson wrote: * Boyd Stephen Smith Jr. b...@iguanasuicide.net [2009-03-22 20:34:50 -0500]: That's hyperbole, at the very least. The original Pentium was released on March 22, 1993. 3 1/2 disks had been available for a while. While the first GB disk wouldn't be seen until 1995, 100MB drives were available. Not in '87. I recalled the modem wrong, though. Memory serves a V.22 complient USR, and it was slower. The message you were replying to, 143f0f6c0903221424x392b99cdpb14d6fe2ee7db...@mail.gmail.com, specifically said 1994. -- Boyd Stephen Smith Jr. ,= ,-_-. =. b...@iguanasuicide.net ((_/)o o(\_)) ICQ: 514984 YM/AIM: DaTwinkDaddy `-'(. .)`-' http://iguanasuicide.net/\_/ signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part.
Re: Top posting vs Bottom posting
Christofer C. Bell wrote: On Sun, Mar 22, 2009 at 11:40 AM, Ron Johnson ron.l.john...@cox.net mailto:ron.l.john...@cox.net wrote: On 2009-03-22 11:45, Chris Bannister wrote: ... A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? This isn't true. Come enter the 21st Century, it started nearly a decade ago. ;-) Top posting works well in a modern threaded mail reader (all of which, incidentally, support HTML email). Because *you* are a curmudgeon doesn't mean everyone else has to be. ;-) Your example looks like this in a threaded mail reader: Mail 1: Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? Mail 2: A: Top-posting. Mail 3: Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? Mail 4: A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text. Wrong. Since when does even a threaded mail reader rearrange the content within a single message into a different order? Chris's example showed the order of replies in a message constructed with top-posting. Are you trying to win your argument by trying to pull a fast one (by switching to talking about the order in the message-list pane instead of the message), or do you just not understand Chris's example? Daniel -- (Plain text sometimes corrupted to HTML courtesy of Microsoft Exchange.) [F]
Re: Top posting vs Bottom posting
Chris Jones wrote: On Sun, Mar 22, 2009 at 01:51:31PM EDT, Florian Kulzer wrote: [..] I need to see the relevant context quoted (properly trimmed as the discussion progresses, of course), especially if a thread has run for a while. Most business mail runs something like this: - hey, Dee.. got my fax? (Cc: my boss, her boss.. ) - Yeah, got it.. Thanks! (Cc: same) Where I work, over 90% of the emails that I see are of this nature. There's no need for context whatsoever.. all parties know what the fax is about.. Does that example represent two message or one? If it's one: That's a good example of bottom posting (quoting what's being replied to (got my fax?) for context about the reply (got it). If it's two: How can you argue that there's no need for context? Without context, when someone writes Yeah, got it..., how can the recipient know which thing the writer is asking about (what it represents)? (Well, unless the correspondents can't handle having several things in their queues at once so that at any point in time there's only one possible thing that it could refer to.) Daniel -- (Plain text sometimes corrupted to HTML courtesy of Microsoft Exchange.) [F]
Re: Top posting vs Bottom posting
On Mon, Mar 23, 2009 at 9:48 AM, Barclay, Daniel dan...@fgm.com wrote: Christofer C. Bell wrote: Mail 1: Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? Mail 2: A: Top-posting. Mail 3: Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? Mail 4: A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text. Wrong. Since when does even a threaded mail reader rearrange the content within a single message into a different order? It doesn't, and you're splitting hairs. In a threaded mail reader, I've just read the previous post, there is zero need to provide context. This is what it looks like in a threaded mail reader when you're bottom posting: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? Top-posting. What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? Top-posting. Why is top-posting such a bad thing? What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? Top-posting. Why is top-posting such a bad thing? Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text. This sort of display is annoying. You've already seen what it looks like when top-posted in a modern mail reader (ie; it follows the order in which people normally read text). Chris's example showed the order of replies in a message constructed with top-posting. Are you trying to win your argument by trying to pull a fast one (by switching to talking about the order in the message-list pane instead of the message), or do you just not understand Chris's example? The most common arguments for bottom-posting are based on the mail reader people are using, but without context in my non-threaded, written in 1980 mail reader, I can't tell what the post is about. So obviously, what people are using to read their mail is germane to the discussion. In a modern mail reader, top-posted messages are what flow more naturally. A more successful argument for your position would be to point to mail archives where an entire discussion needs to be preserved in a logical order contained in a single post. Continuing to point to an active discussion thread as proof that top posting is illogical... is illogical. You are doing nothing more than pandering the to the pedantic. I understand the other Chris' example just fine. Do you understand mine? -- Chris
Re: Top posting vs Bottom posting
In 143f0f6c0903230837k4d6bc8a5r55fe985e82993...@mail.gmail.com, Christofer C. Bell wrote: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? Top-posting. What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? Top-posting. Why is top-posting such a bad thing? What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? Top-posting. Why is top-posting such a bad thing? Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text. This sort of display is annoying. Thank goodness my threaded mail reader never shows 4 messages at once. (Alright, alright, it *can* but it doesn't do so for me.) That sort of display is completely unheard of. You've already seen what it looks like when top-posted in a modern mail reader (ie; it follows the order in which people normally read text). No, it doesn't. The individual messages are hard to read because they are backwards. The individual message is what matters because the reader either has the whole message or none of it. However, losing a few messages from the middle of a thread (or not getting them before their replies) is not unheard of, even now. I find that this actually happens to me more often now, because my SPAM filters will be overzealous and shuffle one or two posters' messages to my Possible SPAM folder, which I don't check until after I've read the rest of the my mail. When everyone has included relevant context (and not too much of it) the discussion is still easy to follow. The most common arguments for bottom-posting are based on the mail reader people are using, but without context in my non-threaded, written in 1980 mail reader, I can't tell what the post is about. No, they are based on the fact that email is not a guaranteed delivery service and endpoint or intermediate servers may delay a message for days. [1] Because of this, context needs to be provided and ordered so that each message stands alone as much as possible. So obviously, what people are using to read their mail is germane to the discussion. In a modern mail reader, top-posted messages are what flow more naturally. The thread as a whole may flow slightly more naturally, but even that is arguable. However, even in a threaded mail reader, I still jump into the middle of threads all the time. I'll read the first half before work, another part in the afternoon, and the final messages over the weekend, for example. It helps for each message to contain relevant content so I don't have to go back and read the whole thread each time. Since I follow 20+ mailing lists, plus my personal and work mail, re-reading messages is not something I do much. Also, for discussions that are archived on the web, it helps for messages to have the proper amount of context because search engines and all the other methods for finding the page you need can often provide a link into the middle or end of a discussion. -- Boyd Stephen Smith Jr. ,= ,-_-. =. b...@iguanasuicide.net ((_/)o o(\_)) ICQ: 514984 YM/AIM: DaTwinkDaddy `-'(. .)`-' http://iguanasuicide.net/\_/ [1] Intermediate servers are rare these days. A delay over a few minutes is also not seen much either, but I've seen it this year, so it's not like it never happens. signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part.
Re: Top posting vs Bottom posting
On Mon, Mar 23, 2009 at 10:57:09AM EDT, Barclay, Daniel wrote: Chris Jones wrote: On Sun, Mar 22, 2009 at 01:51:31PM EDT, Florian Kulzer wrote: [..] I need to see the relevant context quoted (properly trimmed as the discussion progresses, of course), especially if a thread has run for a while. Most business mail runs something like this: - hey, Dee.. got my fax? (Cc: my boss, her boss.. ) - Yeah, got it.. Thanks! (Cc: same) Where I work, over 90% of the emails that I see are of this nature. There's no need for context whatsoever.. all parties know what the fax is about.. Does that example represent two message or one? If it's one: That's a good example of bottom posting (quoting what's being replied to (got my fax?) for context about the reply (got it). If it's two: How can you argue that there's no need for context? That's my point .. it's not e-mail .. it's instant messaging. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: Top posting vs Bottom posting
On Mon, Mar 23, 2009 at 10:37:21AM -0500, Christofer C. Bell wrote: On Mon, Mar 23, 2009 at 9:48 AM, Barclay, Daniel dan...@fgm.com wrote: Christofer C. Bell wrote: Mail 1: Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? Mail 2: A: Top-posting. Mail 3: Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? Mail 4: A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text. Wrong. Since when does even a threaded mail reader rearrange the content within a single message into a different order? It doesn't, and you're splitting hairs. In a threaded mail reader, I've just read the previous post, there is zero need to provide context. This is what it looks like in a threaded mail reader when you're bottom posting: true, I read my mail in the morning (in oz so my morning is the us evening) and most of the threads have been created, so I read them in order and in-line/bottom posting is actually more of a hassle, because for the majority of time I read the whole thread in one go. What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? Top-posting. What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? Top-posting. Why is top-posting such a bad thing? What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? Top-posting. Why is top-posting such a bad thing? Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text. 'Click your heels 3 times and repeat after me there's no place like home' say it three times and its true! [snip] I disagree with top posting being bad, but as a good netizen I comply with the way things are done on the list (rightly or wrongly) -- I think we ought to raise the age at which juveniles can have a gun. - George W. Bush 10/18/2000 St. Louis, MO During the third presidential debate signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Top posting vs Bottom posting
On Mon, Mar 23, 2009 at 12:16:12PM EDT, Boyd Stephen Smith Jr. wrote: In 143f0f6c0903230837k4d6bc8a5r55fe985e82993...@mail.gmail.com, Christofer C. Bell wrote: [..] Thank goodness my threaded mail reader never shows 4 messages at once. (Alright, alright, it *can* but it doesn't do so for me.) That sort of display is completely unheard of. Unless the messages have everything in the subject .. and no body..? Believe me I've seen a lot of that in the enterprise world .. or half a line subjects.. As I mentioned elsewhere it's a bit of a cross between e-mail and instant messaging .. with the advantage that the bean-counters can print each and every mail and .. file it, I guess. You've already seen what it looks like when top-posted in a modern mail reader (ie; it follows the order in which people normally read text). No, it doesn't. The individual messages are hard to read because they are backwards. The individual message is what matters because the reader either has the whole message or none of it. However, losing a few messages from the middle of a thread (or not getting them before their replies) is not unheard of, even now. Happens to me all the time.. a boring thread that I kept deleting and for some reason or other I want to go back to something from some subthread or other that I don't have any more. I find that this actually happens to me more often now, because my SPAM filters will be overzealous and shuffle one or two posters' messages to my Possible SPAM folder, which I don't check until after I've read the rest of the my mail. When everyone has included relevant context (and not too much of it) the discussion is still easy to follow. The most common arguments for bottom-posting are based on the mail reader people are using, but without context in my non-threaded, written in 1980 mail reader, I can't tell what the post is about. What mailer are you referring to? I use mutt and it threads messages reliably, flagging malformed mails that it adds to a thread when it thinks that's where it belongs, allows you to either split or join threads.. Sure it's not from 1980 .. 1995 .. only wrinkle this mailer has .. well he's sitting on it. No, they are based on the fact that email is not a guaranteed delivery service and endpoint or intermediate servers may delay a message for days. [1] Because of this, context needs to be provided and ordered so that each message stands alone as much as possible. So obviously, what people are using to read their mail is germane to the discussion. In a modern mail reader, top-posted messages are what flow more naturally. The thread as a whole may flow slightly more naturally, but even that is arguable. However, even in a threaded mail reader, I still jump into the middle of threads all the time. I'll read the first half before work, another part in the afternoon, and the final messages over the weekend, for example. It helps for each message to contain relevant content so I don't have to go back and read the whole thread each time. Since I follow 20+ mailing lists, plus my personal and work mail, re-reading messages is not something I do much. Also, for discussions that are archived on the web, it helps for messages to have the proper amount of context because search engines and all the other methods for finding the page you need can often provide a link into the middle or end of a discussion. Didn't trim .. sums it up better than I could. CJ -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: Top posting vs Bottom posting
On Mon, Mar 23, 2009 at 06:32:04AM EDT, Jesus Arocho wrote: Not all cultures have the same idea of manners. Another example, all cultures have the similar ideas about stealing, but not so about art. Somethings just have to be, others we can pick. On Sunday 22 March 2009 13:18:44 Ron Johnson wrote: On 2009-03-22 12:27, Jesus Arocho wrote: Hee, Hee; are you trying to humiliate people into using bottom posting by associating them with use of Windows? The debate of top/bottom posting is much alike elbows on/off the table, burp/not burp after a meal, etc, Hmmm. Manners or No Manners; it's an easy choice. Bottom posting of course is just as bad or worse than top posting. The only person who can say that with a straight face is one who has spent too much time using Windows. Now then.. I have two bottom posters .. and one top poster.. What do I do? Oh, and since this subthread is about table manners, culture.. thanks to my archaic mailer .. I can split it off the main tree and plonk its OT-ness. CJ -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
