Re: SOLVED (was: Re: using mbuffer: what am i doing wrong?)

[Marc SCHAEFER]

On Thu, Apr 11, 2024 at 04:14:33PM +0200, DdB wrote:
> - the resulting transfer is way faster than say ... ssh.

AFAIK ssh is mono-threaded (like OpenVPN, unless you use the kernel
module).  wireguard is multi-threaded.

The symptom will be one CPU ("core") at 100% and the rest mostly
idle.

SOLVED (was: Re: using mbuffer: what am i doing wrong?)

[DdB]

Am 11.04.2024 um 15:49 schrieb Marc SCHAEFER:
> Hello,
> 
> On Tue, Apr 09, 2024 at 03:13:01PM +0200, DdB wrote:
>> from my research, the abbreviated takeaway is:
> 
> I never used mbuffer, I use buffer combined with netcat-traditional:
> 
># receiver (TCP server on port 8000)
>nc -l -p 8000 | buffer -S 1048576 -s 32768 -o /dev/null
> 
># sender (TCP client on ephemeral port)
>nc localhost 8000 < /dev/zero
> 
> I just installed mbuffer:
> 
>mbuffer -I 8000 -o /dev/null
> 
>mbuffer -i /dev/zero -O 127.0.0.1:8000
> 
> and it also works.
> 
>>> sudo netstat | grep $port
>> to return nothing
> 
> yes, but those work:
> 
>netstat -a | grep :8000
> 
>netstat --listen | grep :8000
> 
> Maybe it's just that by default netstat only shows sockets in the
> ESTABLISHED state and not in the LISTEN state.
> 
>> What am i doing wrong?
> 
> If there is a timeout, I would suggest to investigate firewalls
> on the server side.
> 
> 

Thank you for your (and everyone else)'s hints.
It is working now. The lessons learned:
- in fact netstat is somewhat outdated, ss is the replacement (package
iproute2 instead of net-tools)
- yes, and my attempt at checking just failed, as you kindly pointed
out, due to missing out on listening ports. LOL
- when using mbuffer from a pipe, it is important to say "-i - " in the
arguments (missed that at first)
- the resulting transfer is way faster than say ... ssh.

Re: using mbuffer: what am i doing wrong?

[Marc SCHAEFER]

Hello,

On Tue, Apr 09, 2024 at 03:13:01PM +0200, DdB wrote:
> from my research, the abbreviated takeaway is:

I never used mbuffer, I use buffer combined with netcat-traditional:

   # receiver (TCP server on port 8000)
   nc -l -p 8000 | buffer -S 1048576 -s 32768 -o /dev/null

   # sender (TCP client on ephemeral port)
   nc localhost 8000 < /dev/zero

I just installed mbuffer:

   mbuffer -I 8000 -o /dev/null

   mbuffer -i /dev/zero -O 127.0.0.1:8000

and it also works.

> > sudo netstat | grep $port
> to return nothing

yes, but those work:

   netstat -a | grep :8000

   netstat --listen | grep :8000

Maybe it's just that by default netstat only shows sockets in the
ESTABLISHED state and not in the LISTEN state.

> What am i doing wrong?

If there is a timeout, I would suggest to investigate firewalls
on the server side.

Re: using mbuffer: what am i doing wrong?

[DdB]

Am 09.04.2024 um 15:30 schrieb Arno Lehmann:

> I'd propose to use
> 
> ss -f inet -lpn
> 
> ss instead of netstat... I try to catch up with changing times :-)
(...)
> 
> Arno
> 
> 

Thank you so much! Your suggestion did help big time, and the transfer
is working now as desired.

Great relief and a good lesson: not to install net-tools, but iproute2
instead. :-)

Have a nice day!
DdB

Re: using mbuffer: what am i doing wrong?

[Michael Kjörling]

On 9 Apr 2024 15:13 +0200, from debianl...@potentially-spam.de-bruyn.de (DdB):
>> port=8000 # just an example
>> filename=test.bin # created before
>> 
>> # Start the receiver first, like:
>> mbuffer -I $port -o $filename
>> 
>> # Then start the sender like:
>> mbuffer -i $filename -O ${receiverIP}:$port
> 
> On my LAN (all virtual, at the moment), this fails, because the sender
> cannot connect to the receiver, so times out.

Looking at the mbuffer man page, it certainly looks like it should
work. Another tool that will let you do the same thing is nc (netcat);
nc -l on the listener side, plain nc on the connecting side.


> What left me puzzled is this:
> Just starting the receiver, and then checking, if it is listening at the
> $port, i found:
>> sudo netstat | grep $port
> to return nothing

netstat defaults to resolving IPs and ports to names. At a minimum,
add -n if you are grepping its output for a specific port number. (You
may also want to use grep -w.)

I also suggest to double-check to make sure that you don't have a
firewall blocking the traffic.

-- 
Michael Kjörling  https://michael.kjorling.se
“Remember when, on the Internet, nobody cared that you were a dog?”

Re: using mbuffer: what am i doing wrong?

[Arno Lehmann]

Hello,


I have not used mbuffer for a long time, so won't comment on that.

But your netstat call looks unsuitable to diagnose.

I'd propose to use

ss -f inet -lpn

ss instead of netstat... I try to catch up with changing times :-)

-f inet because in this case, you're (probably) just interested in IPv4 
network sockets. Could be IPv6, of course, then use inet6


-l list listening sockets, not active connections
-p show the process using the socket. Will usually require root
-n show numbers, not translated names

l and n are probably most important for you (and are also available for 
netstat) as you would otherwise first miss a listening socket, and then 
have grep miss the output if you use a port number that is assigned (see 
/etc/services)


Good luck!

Arno


--
Arno Lehmann

IT-Service Lehmann
Sandstr. 6, 49080 Osnabrück

using mbuffer: what am i doing wrong?

[DdB]

Hello list,

from my research, the abbreviated takeaway is:

> port=8000 # just an example
> filename=test.bin # created before
> 
> # Start the receiver first, like:
> mbuffer -I $port -o $filename
> 
> # Then start the sender like:
> mbuffer -i $filename -O ${receiverIP}:$port

On my LAN (all virtual, at the moment), this fails, because the sender
cannot connect to the receiver, so times out.

What left me puzzled is this:
Just starting the receiver, and then checking, if it is listening at the
$port, i found:
> sudo netstat | grep $port
to return nothing

At that point, i decided, i would appreciate some hint from people more
experienced than i am.

What am i doing wrong?
DdB

Re: What use can i give to linux?

[gene heskett]

On 4/6/24 16:30, Roy J. Tellason, Sr. wrote:

On Saturday 06 April 2024 11:05:52 am Curt wrote:

On 2024-04-05, John Hasler  wrote:

Desktop Linux is widely used in physics and mathematics.  NASA uses
Linux extensively, including on Mars and on the ISS.  SpaceX uses Linux
on their rockets and spacecraft.  Over 90% of the top 1 million Web
servers run Linux, including Yahoo, X, and Ebay.  Almost all
supercomputers use Linux. Linux has a large and growing share of the
automotive market.  Your router almost certainly runs Linux.


Yeah, but Grandma's still using Windows XP.


Don't believe the stereotypes...

My lady,  now 79,  was running XP until there was a hard drive crash some few years back. 
 After I dealt with that but before I did the re-install I stuck an Ubuntu CD in the 
machine and said "Try this" and it was apparently okay enough to go ahead and 
install it and run it for several years.  The only regret was one game that wouldn't 
load,  but we couldn't get a clean read off of that install medium anyhow.  Not all that 
long ago that machine got replaced by one running linux Mint,  which she's still happily 
running today.  I offered Debian,  by putting it on a second drive in that earlier 
machine and pointing out the boot options,  but she never did get that much of a handle 
on the idea of selecting different desktop environments.  Not a big deal,  at least the 
house is an M$-free zone still,  and I know that she's a damn smart lady.  :-)

We're way off topic Roy, but my now departed music teacher never "got 
the fever" was not a bit impressed by the district forcing her to use a 
dos box (2.1 I think), two floppy drives to make out grades and report 
cards the last 5 years of her 35 year teaching career.


Cheers, Gene Heskett, CET.
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis

Re: What use can i give to linux?

[Roy J. Tellason, Sr.]

On Saturday 06 April 2024 11:05:52 am Curt wrote:
> On 2024-04-05, John Hasler  wrote:
> > Desktop Linux is widely used in physics and mathematics.  NASA uses
> > Linux extensively, including on Mars and on the ISS.  SpaceX uses Linux
> > on their rockets and spacecraft.  Over 90% of the top 1 million Web
> > servers run Linux, including Yahoo, X, and Ebay.  Almost all
> > supercomputers use Linux. Linux has a large and growing share of the
> > automotive market.  Your router almost certainly runs Linux.
> 
> Yeah, but Grandma's still using Windows XP.

Don't believe the stereotypes...

My lady,  now 79,  was running XP until there was a hard drive crash some few 
years back.  After I dealt with that but before I did the re-install I stuck an 
Ubuntu CD in the machine and said "Try this" and it was apparently okay enough 
to go ahead and install it and run it for several years.  The only regret was 
one game that wouldn't load,  but we couldn't get a clean read off of that 
install medium anyhow.  Not all that long ago that machine got replaced by one 
running linux Mint,  which she's still happily running today.  I offered 
Debian,  by putting it on a second drive in that earlier machine and pointing 
out the boot options,  but she never did get that much of a handle on the idea 
of selecting different desktop environments.  Not a big deal,  at least the 
house is an M$-free zone still,  and I know that she's a damn smart lady.  :-)

-- 
Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and
ablest -- form of life in this section of space,  a critter that can
be killed but can't be tamed.  --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters"
-
Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James 
M Dakin

Re: What use can i give to linux?

[Curt]

On 2024-04-06, gene heskett  wrote:
> On 4/6/24 11:07, Curt wrote:
>> On 2024-04-05, John Hasler  wrote:
>>> Desktop Linux is widely used in physics and mathematics.  NASA uses
>>> Linux extensively, including on Mars and on the ISS.  SpaceX uses Linux
>>> on their rockets and spacecraft.  Over 90% of the top 1 million Web
>>> servers run Linux, including Yahoo, X, and Ebay.  Almost all
>>> supercomputers use Linux. Linux has a large and growing share of the
>>> automotive market.  Your router almost certainly runs Linux.
>> 
>> Yeah, but Grandma's still using Windows XP
> .
> And she will never experience its only major bug, the timer rollover at 
> 46.something days. She will never leave it running that long. That was 
> the most stable windows ever published.  That was the only reason we 
> ever rebooted the machine that literally ran the WDTV news dept back in 
> its day despite the reporters best efforts to crash it. I'd calculate 
> when it had to be rebooted & stick a postit note on it.  And kept a copy 
> in my office to remind me when it was time to go reboot it.

Well, you'll be reassured to note that she is now defunct. Where the
machine ended up, I am unaware. Her ashes are currently confined in some
buried urn.

Time heals all wounds, n'est-ce pas ?

> Cheers, Gene Heskett, CET.


-- 

Re: What use can i give to linux?

[gene heskett]

On 4/6/24 11:07, Curt wrote:

On 2024-04-05, John Hasler  wrote:

Desktop Linux is widely used in physics and mathematics.  NASA uses
Linux extensively, including on Mars and on the ISS.  SpaceX uses Linux
on their rockets and spacecraft.  Over 90% of the top 1 million Web
servers run Linux, including Yahoo, X, and Ebay.  Almost all
supercomputers use Linux. Linux has a large and growing share of the
automotive market.  Your router almost certainly runs Linux.


Yeah, but Grandma's still using Windows XP

.
And she will never experience its only major bug, the timer rollover at 
46.something days. She will never leave it running that long. That was 
the most stable windows ever published.  That was the only reason we 
ever rebooted the machine that literally ran the WDTV news dept back in 
its day despite the reporters best efforts to crash it. I'd calculate 
when it had to be rebooted & stick a postit note on it.  And kept a copy 
in my office to remind me when it was time to go reboot it.



.


Cheers, Gene Heskett, CET.
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis

Re: What use can i give to linux?

[Curt]

On 2024-04-05, John Hasler  wrote:
> Desktop Linux is widely used in physics and mathematics.  NASA uses
> Linux extensively, including on Mars and on the ISS.  SpaceX uses Linux
> on their rockets and spacecraft.  Over 90% of the top 1 million Web
> servers run Linux, including Yahoo, X, and Ebay.  Almost all
> supercomputers use Linux. Linux has a large and growing share of the
> automotive market.  Your router almost certainly runs Linux.

Yeah, but Grandma's still using Windows XP.

Re: What use can i give to linux?

[Charles Curley]

On Fri, 5 Apr 2024 13:38:50 -0700
"James H. H. Lampert"  wrote:

> Which is why I still have DOS boxes  (running IBM PC-DOS 2000, 
> with DOSShell, and no WinDoze whatsoever….

You might look into freedos.

-- 
Does anybody read signatures any more?

https://charlescurley.com
https://charlescurley.com/blog/

Re: What use can i give to linux?

[James H. H. Lampert]

On 4/5/24 12:12 PM, Nate Bargmann wrote:
. . .

Most of the time the platform is dictated by the application(s) a
user wants to run. . . .


Indeed. Which is why I still have DOS boxes  (running IBM PC-DOS 2000, 
with DOSShell, and no WinDoze whatsoever: Xerox Ventura Publisher 
(DOS/GEM Edition) is *still* my typesetting software of choice, and I 
still use WordPerfect 5.1+ and Quattro Pro SE.


And as to Ventura and WordPerfect, well, Corel can go to . . . (rhymes 
with Corel), for turning perfectly good DOS apps into bad, bloated, 
WinDoze apps.


--
JHHL

Re: What use can i give to linux?

[Nate Bargmann]

* On 2024 05 Apr 12:37 -0500, William Torrez Corea wrote:
> My colleague uses Windows, another uses Mac OS while I use Debian Gnu/Linux
> 12.

Choice is good.

> The majority of users use Windows while developers and designers use mac os
> but a little of people use Debian Gnu/Linux 12. So, what is the goal of
> having this distribution?.

https://www.debian.org/intro/why_debian

> I use in Debian Gnu/Linux the following tools:
> 
>1. gdb
>2. gcc
>3. valgrind
>4. git
>5. vim
>6. postgresql

You're using tools provided by Debian to get your work done or to do
things you want to do that work well for you.  Is that the case for your
colleagues?

Understand that some people will only use one computing platform no
matter the benefits of another.  Others will try everything and still
others will seek the absolute best platform to achieve their goals no
matter what it is.  You and your colleagues may well each be in one of
those categories.

Most of the time the platform is dictated by the application(s) a user
wants to run.  Sometimes the platform is dictated by ego.

- Nate

-- 
"The optimist proclaims that we live in the best of all
possible worlds.  The pessimist fears this is true."
Web: https://www.n0nb.us
Projects: https://github.com/N0NB
GPG fingerprint: 82D6 4F6B 0E67 CD41 F689 BBA6 FB2C 5130 D55A 8819



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Re: What use can i give to linux?

[James H. H. Lampert]

On 4/5/24 11:35 AM, John Hasler wrote:

Desktop Linux is widely used in physics and mathematics.  NASA uses
Linux extensively, including on Mars and on the ISS.  SpaceX uses Linux
on their rockets and spacecraft.  Over 90% of the top 1 million Web
servers run Linux, including Yahoo, X, and Ebay.  Almost all
supercomputers use Linux. Linux has a large and growing share of the
automotive market.  Your router almost certainly runs Linux.


Not to mention people like me, who refuse to use WinDoze, in order to 
avoid paying "The Bill" (hasn't Gates gotten rich enough already, 
selling ill-behaved bloatware and deliberately driving competitors out 
of business?), and who have become increasingly disgusted with Apple's 
"we know what you want better than you do" attitude, and with the fact 
that their upgrade treadmill is getting to be almost as bad as 
Microsloth's (I'd use a stronger dysphemism, involving a very rude 
Yiddish word, but this is presumably a family list-server).


And of course, every Chromebook in the world has a variant of Linux at 
its core (just as every Mac that runs a Mac OS later than 9 uses a 
variant of BSD), and a *good* Chromebook will run Linux apps.


--
JHHL

Re: What use can i give to linux?

[John Hasler]

Desktop Linux is widely used in physics and mathematics.  NASA uses
Linux extensively, including on Mars and on the ISS.  SpaceX uses Linux
on their rockets and spacecraft.  Over 90% of the top 1 million Web
servers run Linux, including Yahoo, X, and Ebay.  Almost all
supercomputers use Linux. Linux has a large and growing share of the
automotive market.  Your router almost certainly runs Linux.
-- 
John Hasler 
j...@sugarbit.com
Elmwood, WI USA

Re: What use can i give to linux?

[Leandro Noferini]

William Torrez Corea  writes:

[...]

> The majority of users use Windows while developers and designers use
> mac os but a little of people use Debian Gnu/Linux 12. So, what is the
> goal of having this distribution?.

Translating from a contemporary italian philosopher, the answer you are
looking for is inside you but it is wrong.

[...]

--
Ciao
Leandro


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What use can i give to linux?

[William Torrez Corea]

My colleague uses Windows, another uses Mac OS while I use Debian Gnu/Linux
12.

The majority of users use Windows while developers and designers use mac os
but a little of people use Debian Gnu/Linux 12. So, what is the goal of
having this distribution?.

I use in Debian Gnu/Linux the following tools:

   1. gdb
   2. gcc
   3. valgrind
   4. git
   5. vim
   6. postgresql


-- 

With kindest regards, William.

⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀
⣾⠁⢠⠒⠀⣿⡁ Debian - The universal operating system
⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋⠀ https://www.debian.org
⠈⠳⣄

Re: Question about what package to report bug

[Erwan David]

Le 06/03/2024 à 18:19, ke6jti a écrit :

Hi,

I have a possible kernel regression for a usb-dvb tuner card.  I know 
the error in dmesg points to kernel : au0828 but I am not sure what 
package this belongs to.  I think it belongs to v4l(video for linux) 
but I am still not sure what specific v4l package.



Thanks for you help.


apt-file shows au0828.ko comes in the linux-image-* packages. So report 
the bug for the one you use.

Question about what package to report bug

[ke6jti]

Hi,

I have a possible kernel regression for a usb-dvb tuner card.  I know 
the error in dmesg points to kernel : au0828 but I am not sure what 
package this belongs to.  I think it belongs to v4l(video for linux) but 
I am still not sure what specific v4l package.



Thanks for you help.

Re: What sets LC_TIME?

[Greg Wooledge]

On Sat, Feb 17, 2024 at 08:18:41PM +, debian-u...@howorth.org.uk wrote:
> Greg Wooledge  wrote:
> 
> > That's all normal and expected.
> > 
> > What's odd is that client *actually has* LC_NUMERIC and so on set in
> > its environment.  Which... is not a problem if they're all set to the
> > correct values.  It's weird, but not wrong.  The problem for the OP
> > was that one of the values was not set correctly, or at least not as
> > expected.
> 
> It's not weird at all. It's how many people set their machines, when
> they have logical minds and prefer -MM-DD date format rather than
> the illogical messes most countries have in their locales.

It's weird to set *every* LC_* variable when all you want to change is
LC_TIME.

I personally set LANG and LC_TIME.  But I don't set the others.  Why
would I?  That would be weird.

unicorn:~$ locale
LANG=en_US.utf8
LANGUAGE=
LC_CTYPE="en_US.utf8"
LC_NUMERIC="en_US.utf8"
LC_TIME=C
LC_COLLATE="en_US.utf8"
LC_MONETARY="en_US.utf8"
LC_MESSAGES="en_US.utf8"
LC_PAPER="en_US.utf8"
LC_NAME="en_US.utf8"
LC_ADDRESS="en_US.utf8"
LC_TELEPHONE="en_US.utf8"
LC_MEASUREMENT="en_US.utf8"
LC_IDENTIFICATION="en_US.utf8"
LC_ALL=

As you can see, the only variables with unquoted, non-empty values are
LANG and LC_TIME.

Re: What sets LC_TIME?

[debian-user]

Greg Wooledge  wrote:

> That's all normal and expected.
> 
> What's odd is that client *actually has* LC_NUMERIC and so on set in
> its environment.  Which... is not a problem if they're all set to the
> correct values.  It's weird, but not wrong.  The problem for the OP
> was that one of the values was not set correctly, or at least not as
> expected.

It's not weird at all. It's how many people set their machines, when
they have logical minds and prefer -MM-DD date format rather than
the illogical messes most countries have in their locales.

Re: What sets LC_TIME?

[Anssi Saari]

Greg Wooledge  writes:

> On Fri, Feb 16, 2024 at 03:34:12PM +0200, Anssi Saari wrote:
>> Yah. It was ssh passing through all that. On serial console, locale
>> settings are as expected:
>> 
>> $ locale
>> LANG=en_US.UTF-8
>> LANGUAGE=en_US:en
>> LC_CTYPE="en_US.UTF-8"
>> LC_NUMERIC="en_US.UTF-8"
>> LC_TIME="en_US.UTF-8"
> [...]
>
> Well then, that just changes the mystery from "happens on the Debian
> system I ssh into" to "happens on my ssh client".  For some reason,
> your ssh client has all of those LC_* variables set in its environment,
> which is still quite unusual.

Not at all, I know perfectly well where that comes from. I'd be upset if
I didn't. I set all that in my shell config. It's a kind of a legacy
contamination from remote shell machines. As I don't have root on all
the shell machines I use, I have traditionally configured locales in
shell init there. And at some point, I've copied those locale settings
to my home desktop, possibly other machines too.

I guess one of these days I'll run update-locale and clean up my shell
config.

Re: What sets LC_TIME?

[tomas]

On Fri, Feb 16, 2024 at 05:19:10PM -0600, David Wright wrote:
> On Fri 16 Feb 2024 at 16:25:05 (-0500), Greg Wooledge wrote:

[...]

> > At this point we have no idea whether the ssh client is even a Unix/Linux
> > system.  It could be anything.  It could be a literal toaster.
> 
> More likely an æbleskiver pan?

But we know that all toasters run Unix, since a well-known company
got burnt by that recall they had to do.

On pans... I'm out of my depth, sorry.

;-)

Cheers
-- 
t


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Re: What sets LC_TIME?

[David Wright]

On Fri 16 Feb 2024 at 16:25:05 (-0500), Greg Wooledge wrote:
> On Fri, Feb 16, 2024 at 11:11:09AM -0600, David Wright wrote:
> > On Fri 16 Feb 2024 at 09:12:24 (-0500), Greg Wooledge wrote:
> > > On Fri, Feb 16, 2024 at 03:34:12PM +0200, Anssi Saari wrote:
> > > > Yah. It was ssh passing through all that. On serial console, locale
> > > > settings are as expected:
> > > > 
> > > > $ locale
> > > > LANG=en_US.UTF-8
> > > > LANGUAGE=en_US:en
> > > > LC_CTYPE="en_US.UTF-8"
> > > > LC_NUMERIC="en_US.UTF-8"
> > > > LC_TIME="en_US.UTF-8"
> > > [...]
> > > 
> > > Well then, that just changes the mystery from "happens on the Debian
> > > system I ssh into" to "happens on my ssh client".  For some reason,
> > > your ssh client has all of those LC_* variables set in its environment,
> > > which is still quite unusual.
> > 
> > Could something weird here do that?
> > 
> >   $ grep LC /etc/ssh/*g
> >   /etc/ssh/ssh_config:SendEnv LANG LC_*
> >   /etc/ssh/sshd_config:AcceptEnv LANG LC_*
> >   $ 
> 
> That's all normal and expected.

Yes, they're off my system :) though I should have added -r to
catch any ssh_config.d/* files, as in the illustration below.

> What's odd is that client *actually has* LC_NUMERIC and so on set in
> its environment.  Which... is not a problem if they're all set to the
> correct values.  It's weird, but not wrong.  The problem for the OP was
> that one of the values was not set correctly, or at least not as
> expected.

That's why I posted the last line about SetEnv, illustrated by:

  $ cat /etc/ssh/ssh_config.d/test.conf 
  Host ahost
SetEnv LC_PAPER=en_GB.utf8
  #
  $ ssh ahost
  Linux ahost 5.10.0-27-amd64 #1 SMP Debian 5.10.205-2 (2023-12-31) x86_64

  The programs included with the Debian GNU/Linux system are free software;
  [ … ]
  You have new mail.
  Last login: Fri Feb 16 22:41:18 2024 from 192.168.1.14
  $ locale
  LANG=C.UTF-8
  LANGUAGE=
  LC_CTYPE=en_GB.UTF-8
  LC_NUMERIC="C.UTF-8"
  LC_TIME="C.UTF-8"
  LC_COLLATE="C.UTF-8"
  LC_MONETARY="C.UTF-8"
  LC_MESSAGES="C.UTF-8"
  LC_PAPER=en_GB.utf8←
  LC_NAME="C.UTF-8"
  LC_ADDRESS="C.UTF-8"
  LC_TELEPHONE="C.UTF-8"
  LC_MEASUREMENT="C.UTF-8"
  LC_IDENTIFICATION="C.UTF-8"
  LC_ALL=
  $ 

It's not a place I'd have immediately thought of looking.

> At this point we have no idea whether the ssh client is even a Unix/Linux
> system.  It could be anything.  It could be a literal toaster.

More likely an æbleskiver pan?

Cheers,
David.

Re: What sets LC_TIME?

[Greg Wooledge]

On Fri, Feb 16, 2024 at 11:11:09AM -0600, David Wright wrote:
> On Fri 16 Feb 2024 at 09:12:24 (-0500), Greg Wooledge wrote:
> > On Fri, Feb 16, 2024 at 03:34:12PM +0200, Anssi Saari wrote:
> > > Yah. It was ssh passing through all that. On serial console, locale
> > > settings are as expected:
> > > 
> > > $ locale
> > > LANG=en_US.UTF-8
> > > LANGUAGE=en_US:en
> > > LC_CTYPE="en_US.UTF-8"
> > > LC_NUMERIC="en_US.UTF-8"
> > > LC_TIME="en_US.UTF-8"
> > [...]
> > 
> > Well then, that just changes the mystery from "happens on the Debian
> > system I ssh into" to "happens on my ssh client".  For some reason,
> > your ssh client has all of those LC_* variables set in its environment,
> > which is still quite unusual.
> 
> Could something weird here do that?
> 
>   $ grep LC /etc/ssh/*g
>   /etc/ssh/ssh_config:SendEnv LANG LC_*
>   /etc/ssh/sshd_config:AcceptEnv LANG LC_*
>   $ 

That's all normal and expected.

What's odd is that client *actually has* LC_NUMERIC and so on set in
its environment.  Which... is not a problem if they're all set to the
correct values.  It's weird, but not wrong.  The problem for the OP was
that one of the values was not set correctly, or at least not as
expected.

At this point we have no idea whether the ssh client is even a Unix/Linux
system.  It could be anything.  It could be a literal toaster.

Re: What sets LC_TIME?

[David Wright]

On Fri 16 Feb 2024 at 09:12:24 (-0500), Greg Wooledge wrote:
> On Fri, Feb 16, 2024 at 03:34:12PM +0200, Anssi Saari wrote:
> > Yah. It was ssh passing through all that. On serial console, locale
> > settings are as expected:
> > 
> > $ locale
> > LANG=en_US.UTF-8
> > LANGUAGE=en_US:en
> > LC_CTYPE="en_US.UTF-8"
> > LC_NUMERIC="en_US.UTF-8"
> > LC_TIME="en_US.UTF-8"
> [...]
> 
> Well then, that just changes the mystery from "happens on the Debian
> system I ssh into" to "happens on my ssh client".  For some reason,
> your ssh client has all of those LC_* variables set in its environment,
> which is still quite unusual.

Could something weird here do that?

  $ grep LC /etc/ssh/*g
  /etc/ssh/ssh_config:SendEnv LANG LC_*
  /etc/ssh/sshd_config:AcceptEnv LANG LC_*
  $ 

Perhaps the OP's also sets SetEnv … in the client's config?

Cheers,
David.

Re: What sets LC_TIME?

[Greg Wooledge]

On Fri, Feb 16, 2024 at 03:34:12PM +0200, Anssi Saari wrote:
> Yah. It was ssh passing through all that. On serial console, locale
> settings are as expected:
> 
> $ locale
> LANG=en_US.UTF-8
> LANGUAGE=en_US:en
> LC_CTYPE="en_US.UTF-8"
> LC_NUMERIC="en_US.UTF-8"
> LC_TIME="en_US.UTF-8"
[...]

Well then, that just changes the mystery from "happens on the Debian
system I ssh into" to "happens on my ssh client".  For some reason,
your ssh client has all of those LC_* variables set in its environment,
which is still quite unusual.

Re: What sets LC_TIME?

[Anssi Saari]

Greg Wooledge  writes:

> On Fri, Feb 16, 2024 at 10:24:07AM +0200, Anssi Saari wrote:
>> With the recent LC_ALL thread, I noticed I have LC_TIME set by
>> mysterious means on at least two headless systems, for example:
>> 
>> $ locale
>> LANG=en_US.UTF-8
>> LANGUAGE=
>> LC_CTYPE=en_US.utf8
>> LC_NUMERIC=en_US.utf8
>> LC_TIME=en_DK.utf8
>> LC_COLLATE=en_US.utf8
>> LC_MONETARY=en_US.utf8
>> LC_MESSAGES=en_US.utf8
>> LC_PAPER=en_US.utf8
>> LC_NAME=en_US.utf8
>> LC_ADDRESS=en_US.utf8
>> LC_TELEPHONE=en_US.utf8
>> LC_MEASUREMENT=en_US.utf8
>> LC_IDENTIFICATION=en_US.utf8
>> LC_ALL=
>
> This is *extremely* abnormal locale output.  Here's mine:

Yah. It was ssh passing through all that. On serial console, locale
settings are as expected:

$ locale
LANG=en_US.UTF-8
LANGUAGE=en_US:en
LC_CTYPE="en_US.UTF-8"
LC_NUMERIC="en_US.UTF-8"
LC_TIME="en_US.UTF-8"
LC_COLLATE="en_US.UTF-8"
LC_MONETARY="en_US.UTF-8"
LC_MESSAGES="en_US.UTF-8"
LC_PAPER="en_US.UTF-8"
LC_NAME="en_US.UTF-8"
LC_ADDRESS="en_US.UTF-8"
LC_TELEPHONE="en_US.UTF-8"
LC_MEASUREMENT="en_US.UTF-8"
LC_IDENTIFICATION="en_US.UTF-8"
LC_ALL=

Re: What sets LC_TIME?

[Greg Wooledge]

On Fri, Feb 16, 2024 at 10:24:07AM +0200, Anssi Saari wrote:
> With the recent LC_ALL thread, I noticed I have LC_TIME set by
> mysterious means on at least two headless systems, for example:
> 
> $ locale
> LANG=en_US.UTF-8
> LANGUAGE=
> LC_CTYPE=en_US.utf8
> LC_NUMERIC=en_US.utf8
> LC_TIME=en_DK.utf8
> LC_COLLATE=en_US.utf8
> LC_MONETARY=en_US.utf8
> LC_MESSAGES=en_US.utf8
> LC_PAPER=en_US.utf8
> LC_NAME=en_US.utf8
> LC_ADDRESS=en_US.utf8
> LC_TELEPHONE=en_US.utf8
> LC_MEASUREMENT=en_US.utf8
> LC_IDENTIFICATION=en_US.utf8
> LC_ALL=

This is *extremely* abnormal locale output.  Here's mine:

unicorn:~$ locale
LANG=en_US.utf8
LANGUAGE=
LC_CTYPE="en_US.utf8"
LC_NUMERIC="en_US.utf8"
LC_TIME=C
LC_COLLATE="en_US.utf8"
LC_MONETARY="en_US.utf8"
LC_MESSAGES="en_US.utf8"
LC_PAPER="en_US.utf8"
LC_NAME="en_US.utf8"
LC_ADDRESS="en_US.utf8"
LC_TELEPHONE="en_US.utf8"
LC_MEASUREMENT="en_US.utf8"
LC_IDENTIFICATION="en_US.utf8"
LC_ALL=

Do you see what's different?  The double quotes are meaningful here.
A value that's printed in double quotes is not actually set -- it's
deduced from LANG.  In my output, the only values that are actually
set are LANG and LC_TIME.

In yours, *every* variable is set (except LANGUAGE and LC_ALL).

> LC_TIME ends up with en_DK.utf8. It's what I usually want so I've
> probably set this up and possibly I did it in the Debian installer but
> where does it come from? /etc/default/locale has just LANG=en_US.UTF-8
> 
> find /etc /home/as -type f -print0 -follow|xargs -0 grep -e LC_TIME -e en_DK
> 
> does find some matches, in /etc/locale.gen as expected and in some
> binary files but not in any relevant config file. Come to think of it,
> is this actually hidden inside the initrd somehow?

I can't imagine how the initrd would be related.

My first suspicion would be your desktop environment, if you're running
one.  Who knows what those things do.

If you login on a text console (Ctrl-Alt-F2 for example), do you still
get these same locale values?  How about "ssh localhost" (if an ssh
server is installed)?  If those differ from what you see in your desktop
environment, then it's a strong indicator the DE is doing something.

What sets LC_TIME?

[Anssi Saari]

With the recent LC_ALL thread, I noticed I have LC_TIME set by
mysterious means on at least two headless systems, for example:

$ locale
LANG=en_US.UTF-8
LANGUAGE=
LC_CTYPE=en_US.utf8
LC_NUMERIC=en_US.utf8
LC_TIME=en_DK.utf8
LC_COLLATE=en_US.utf8
LC_MONETARY=en_US.utf8
LC_MESSAGES=en_US.utf8
LC_PAPER=en_US.utf8
LC_NAME=en_US.utf8
LC_ADDRESS=en_US.utf8
LC_TELEPHONE=en_US.utf8
LC_MEASUREMENT=en_US.utf8
LC_IDENTIFICATION=en_US.utf8
LC_ALL=

LC_TIME ends up with en_DK.utf8. It's what I usually want so I've
probably set this up and possibly I did it in the Debian installer but
where does it come from? /etc/default/locale has just LANG=en_US.UTF-8

find /etc /home/as -type f -print0 -follow|xargs -0 grep -e LC_TIME -e en_DK

does find some matches, in /etc/locale.gen as expected and in some
binary files but not in any relevant config file. Come to think of it,
is this actually hidden inside the initrd somehow?

solved: How can we change the keyboard layout? (was: what keyboard do you use?)

[hw]

On Tue, 2024-02-06 at 01:37 -0500, Brian Sammon wrote:
> On Mon, 05 Feb 2024 21:06:30 +0100
> hw  wrote:
> 
> > Yes, it's a misunderstanding: How can we change the keyboard layout?
> 
> [...]
> https://medium.com/@canadaduane/key-remapping-in-linux-2021-edition-47320999d2aa

So this allowed me to install keyd[1] and with a simple config like
below, I get the tilde without shift and the backtick with shift.
Seems like a pretty cool daemon which can do a lot more than that :)


[ids]
*

[main]
` = ~

[shift]
` = `


[1]: https://github.com/rvaiya/keyd/tree/master

Re: what keyboard do you use?

[songbird]

hw wrote:
...
>> $80 for what i have now was acceptable.
>
> Which one is that?  It must be an unusually sturdy one.  Or did you
> put a metal plate under it?

  Corsair K70 CORE RGB Mechanical Gaming Keyboard

  it is solid but stiff, it is also pretty quiet compared to a
model M and has no feel like it either, but i can cope with 
that.  the question is how long will it last?  :)  i will find
out...  if i can get three years out of it then i'm ahead of 
my trend with keyboards.  with mice it has been even worse,
but that was another thread...


[complete aside]

  texting on a phone is freaking hideous, i don't know how 
people get things done with those.  thank goodness most
phones have e-mail to text ways of sending and getting 
messages.


  songbird

Re: How can we change the keyboard layout? (was: what keyboard do you use?)

[hw]

On Tue, 2024-02-06 at 11:28 +, debian-u...@howorth.org.uk wrote:
> hw  wrote:
> > On Mon, 2024-02-05 at 14:34 -0600, David Wright wrote:
> > > [...]
> > >  "The German layout differs from the English (US and UK) layouts in
> > >   four major ways:  
> > 
> > It's missing out on yet another major way: Umlaute.
> 
> If you reread the wikipedia page, you'll see that umlaut keys are
> mentioned as the second of the four ways.

Strange, it's also in the part you quoted.  I don't understand how I
missed that, sorry.

Re: what keyboard do you use?

[songbird]

hw wrote:
> On Mon, 2024-02-05 at 08:46 -0500, songbird wrote:
>> hw wrote:
>> ...
>> > It's a badly missing feature from gnome settings that we can't change
>> > the key bindings.  The layout must be defined somewhere, though.
>> > Maybe someone knows where that is?
>> 
>>   in MATE there's keyboard settings you can use to switch
>> around keyboards and common keys being swapped.
>
> Does that work with wayland?

  i'm using Debian testing, so whatever MATE is at in there
in respect to wayland is where i'm at.  i haven't intentionally
prevented changes from happening, but i'm also not sure wayland
is fully supported in MATE in testing right now.  i think
though that i run X11 still.


> With a German keyboard, one of the keys I need to change is ~.
> There's also ` when you get to do with databases, and a bunch of
> others, like changing comma to dot and more that don't come to mind
> atm.
>
> Have you ever entered ipv4 addresses (and floats) on a German
> keyboard?  It's insane.

  i had 3 weeks of German in college about 40 years ago.
that's it other than Hogan's Heroes...  so, the answer
would be no.


>> i don't use them now, but did in the past.  likely GNOME has
>> something similar but i haven't touched that desktop in quite a long
>> time.
>
> Gnome has actually become usable about 2 years ago, though I miss
> fvwm, and the lack of configurability with Gnome sucks badly.  I'd
> like KDE much better, but KDE has always been rather slow and too
> buggy.  When I tried KDE with wayland it didn't really work at all.
>
> The only alternative I know of is sway, but I don't get along with
> tiling WMs.  I like the idea; the problem is that they need to do
> floating windows just as well, and they don't do that.
>
> I had fvwm configured so it would manage the windows for me instead of
> having to manage them myself, including tiling, but as long there's
> no wayland version of fvwm, we're stuck with KDE and Gnome ...
>
> Maybe give Gnome another try.  It does have its advantages, and it
> can't hurt to check it out.

  good luck.  i don't have time or space to try GNOME out
again.  i went a long torturous route via GNOME, to KDE 
and back to GNOME for a short while and then disgusted at
it went to MATE and have been mostly happy there.  it is
a consistent interface enough that it doesn't get in my
way.  that's what i wanted stability and those others kept
destroying my efforts (or more accurately my lack of the
desire to figure out a new method of doing the same thing
without the interface making the wrong assumptions about
what i wanted it to do (stay out of the way :) ))...


> The additional keys on my 122 key keyboard help with Gnome (and other
> things) a great deal.  So if you want to get a kind of Model M, get
> 122 keys.
>
> Who still makes 122 key keyboards except Unicomp?

  no idea.

  i'm content with 104.  i rarely use odd keys.  i have to
retrain myself to use the number pad because it really is
faster for when i'm editing numbers or doing data entry.


  songbird

Re: On graphical environments [was: what keyboard do you use?]

[tomas]

On Tue, Feb 06, 2024 at 02:55:30PM +0100, hw wrote:
> On Tue, 2024-02-06 at 06:33 +0100, to...@tuxteam.de wrote:
> > On Mon, Feb 05, 2024 at 09:40:30PM +0100, hw wrote:
> > 
> > [...]
> > 
> > > Have you ever entered ipv4 addresses (and floats) on a German
> > > keyboard?  It's insane.
> > 
> > While I do agree with other of your points (CTRL-] being one,

[...]

> > But floats? Where's the problem?
> 
> I'm entering numbers, like ipv4 addresses and floats, through the
> number pad [...]

Ah, that was the missing piece, thanks.

[...]

> > Fvwm does work in Debian. Try it!
> 
> Then why aren't you using fvwm?  Gnome is more your enemy than your
> ally since it still lacks almost all configurability.

I /am/ using fvwm. Everything else would drive me nuts (more than
I am, already).

Cheers
-- 
t


signature.asc
Description: PGP signature

Re: On graphical environments [was: what keyboard do you use?]

[hw]

On Tue, 2024-02-06 at 06:33 +0100, to...@tuxteam.de wrote:
> On Mon, Feb 05, 2024 at 09:40:30PM +0100, hw wrote:
> 
> [...]
> 
> > Have you ever entered ipv4 addresses (and floats) on a German
> > keyboard?  It's insane.
> 
> While I do agree with other of your points (CTRL-] being one,
> although you exaggerated by one key), I don't understand this
> one. I'm entering IPv4 addresses every day in a German keyboard
> and I don't see any problem. IPv6 is trickier, though...
> 
> But floats? Where's the problem?

I'm entering numbers, like ipv4 addresses and floats, through the
number pad, with one hand.  Unless you change the keyboard layout so
you have a dot instead of a (useless) comma on the Del key, you can't
sanely enter such numbers, and you can't reasonably do it with one
hand.

Add to that that I'm using the trackball with my left hand and you
understand that I would have to take my hand off the trackball just to
enter such numbers.  Even then it would be nuisance.

> 
> [...]
> 
> > Gnome has actually become usable about 2 years ago, though I miss
> > fvwm [...]
> 
> That's why I came full circle back from GNOME (with some stops in
> XFCE, awesome) to fvwm. I like a setup where the window manager is
> *my* ally, not that of some krazy applications (browsers, I'm looking
> at you). Including a key combo for xkill (I even clawed back the
> little skull for the cursor :-)
> 
> Fvwm does work in Debian. Try it!

Then why aren't you using fvwm?  Gnome is more your enemy than your
ally since it still lacks almost all configurability.

Re: How can we change the keyboard layout? (was: what keyboard do you use?)

[hw]

On Tue, 2024-02-06 at 01:37 -0500, Brian Sammon wrote:
> On Mon, 05 Feb 2024 21:06:30 +0100
> hw  wrote:
> 
> > Yes, it's a misunderstanding: How can we change the keyboard layout?
> 
> I recently dug into this because I am running Debian on a
> Chromebook, and I wanted to map the Google-key (located next to the
> A key, where you usually expect Caps-Lock to be) to be a Ctrl, for
> Emacs-Correctness.  I wanted a solution that would also work when I
> used an external keyboard (which has an actual CapsLock next to the
> A), and would work both in X and in console mode.

Wow that's a very tall order!

> The solution I found, which should work when using Wayland as well,
> was to customize the lowlevel scancode-to-keycode mapping that is
> managed by udev.  You can have different remappings for different
> keyboard models.
> 
> This keymapping system is very powerful, but somewhat ideosyncratic,
> and somewhat poorly documented.

At least there is a way :)

Have you been able to find the predefined keyboard layouts that can be
selected through gnome (or KDE) settings somewhere?  I was thinking if
I could find those, I might be able to make a copy of one and then
modify it they way I need it.  Or is that approach not even feasible?

I think I rather don't want to change the scancode-to-keycode mapping
but would want to change the keycode-to-key mapping like it's done
with xmodmap.

> And it's an edit-the-configfile system; I'm not aware of any GUI
> config tools for it.

Well, I prefer that.

> Some of the webpages in my notes that I remember being useful are:
> https://wiki.archlinux.org/title/Keyboard_input

Hmm, that gives me wev to start with, as the equivalent of xev.

Is wayland using this XKB thing?  When I run 'setxkbmap -print
-verbose 10' I'm getting 'WARNING: Running setxkbmap against an
Xwayland server'.  Does that mean we're not supposed to do that and/or
that we're not supposed to use XKB?

> https://yulistic.gitlab.io/2017/12/linux-keymapping-with-udev-hwdb/ 
> (including some of the comments that contain more recent info)
> https://medium.com/@canadaduane/key-remapping-in-linux-2021-edition-47320999d2aa
> 
> Some somewhat-informative files on my computer were
> /lib/udev/hwdb.d/60-keyboard.hwdb (comes with udev)

That's an interesting file indeed!

So I want to change that I have to press Shift+` to get a tilde to not
having to press Shift.  I. e. the key is the first key on top row of
my keyboard and has ` and ~ on it, and I want to just press it and get
a tilde.

Wev says 'key: 49'.  That is 0x31 which doesn't show up in this file.
Now what?

> /usr/include/linux/input-event-codes.h (comes with linux-libc-dev package)

According to that, 49 is KEY_N and 'tilde' doesn't exist.

> Gotchas include:
> Some things *must* be in lowercase (keycodes, I think?)
> Some things *must* be in uppercase (certain hexadecimal stuff?)

Yeah it says something about that in the comments in 60-keyboard.hwdb.

> For best results, triple-check that the case you use is exactly the
> same as the example/sample config files.

It seems to me that 60-keyboard.hwdb is intended to provide certain
keycodes --- i. e. symbols understood by the kernel since they seem to
show up in input-event-codes.h --- for a bunch of different keyboards.

That seems like the case Loris described with a laptop.  Perhaps he
would need to specify some (evdev) identifier for that particular
keyboard in 60-keyboard.hwdb, along with a mapping for the scancode
and the symbol --- and then somehow make a pull request or bug report
as described in the file.  Then these keys may end up working for
everyone with such a laptop.

> If you get this wrong, udev will just ignore the erroneous parts of
> your config file, (and you might think it just didn't see it)
> instead of giving an error message.

Hm, that's bad ...

Still I think this the wrong place to make changes for my case.  I
could try something with my keyboard, but I don't understand these
evdev designations in 60-keyboard.hwdb, so I won't even be able to
specify my keyboard to make settings for it.

Re: what keyboard do you use?

[Greg Wooledge]

On Tue, Feb 06, 2024 at 12:04:16PM +0100, hw wrote:
> ls -la /etc/udev/hwdb.d/
> total 0
> drwxr-xr-x. 1 root root  0 Jan 22 01:00 .
> drwxr-xr-x. 1 root root 82 Feb  5 13:03 ..
> 
> But this is on Fedora, and perhaps Debian does it differently.

unicorn:~$ ls /etc/udev
hwdb.d/  rules.d/  udev.conf
unicorn:~$ ls /etc/udev/hwdb.d/
unicorn:~$ 

Looks like a blank slate.  Create your own rules, at your own risk.

Re: How can we change the keyboard layout? (was: what keyboard do you use?)

[debian-user]

Brian Sammon  wrote:
> On Mon, 05 Feb 2024 21:06:30 +0100
> hw  wrote:
> 
> > Yes, it's a misunderstanding: How can we change the keyboard
> > layout?  
> 
> I recently dug into this because I am running Debian on a Chromebook,
> and I wanted to map the Google-key (located next to the A key, where
> you usually expect Caps-Lock to be) to be a Ctrl, for
> Emacs-Correctness.  I wanted a solution that would also work when I
> used an external keyboard (which has an actual CapsLock next to the
> A), and would work both in X and in console mode.
> 
> The solution I found, which should work when using Wayland as well,
> was to customize the lowlevel scancode-to-keycode mapping that is
> managed by udev.  You can have different remappings for different
> keyboard models.
> 
> This keymapping system is very powerful, but somewhat ideosyncratic,
> and somewhat poorly documented.  And it's an edit-the-configfile
> system; I'm not aware of any GUI config tools for it.
> 
> It took me over 2 hours to figure out and set up, after which I had a
> scrambled pile of notes (in a text file) but not the energy to clean
> them up.  The next time I do it I expect it'll take me about an hour
> (if the same process still applies) instead of the 15 minutes it
> would take if I did a proper job of documenting it for myself.
> 
> Some of the webpages in my notes that I remember being useful are:
> https://wiki.archlinux.org/title/Keyboard_input
> https://yulistic.gitlab.io/2017/12/linux-keymapping-with-udev-hwdb/
> (including some of the comments that contain more recent info)
> https://medium.com/@canadaduane/key-remapping-in-linux-2021-edition-47320999d2aa

Many, many thanks for this post Brian. Those links are truly excellent.

> Some somewhat-informative files on my computer were
> /lib/udev/hwdb.d/60-keyboard.hwdb (comes with udev)
> /usr/include/linux/input-event-codes.h (comes with linux-libc-dev
> package)
> 
> Gotchas include:
> Some things *must* be in lowercase (keycodes, I think?)
> Some things *must* be in uppercase (certain hexadecimal stuff?)
> For best results, triple-check that the case you use is exactly the
> same as the example/sample config files. If you get this wrong, udev
> will just ignore the erroneous parts of your config file, (and you
> might think it just didn't see it) instead of giving an error message.
> 

Re: How can we change the keyboard layout? (was: what keyboard do you use?)

[debian-user]

hw  wrote:
> On Mon, 2024-02-05 at 14:34 -0600, David Wright wrote:
> > [...]
> >  "The German layout differs from the English (US and UK) layouts in
> >   four major ways:  
> 
> It's missing out on yet another major way: Umlaute.

If you reread the wikipedia page, you'll see that umlaut keys are
mentioned as the second of the four ways.

> The Umlaute take whole keys for themselves like other letters, and
> since there aren't any more keys on the keyboard, they replace other
> characters which contributes to the German keyboard layout being
> rather awkward and difficult to use.  Whoever created it has
> completely overlooked that computers aren't typewriters.
> 
> And it's very bad not to have a right Alt key.  That also has
> consequences that make things worse.
> 
> > 
> > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_keyboard_layout  
> 
> 

Re: what keyboard do you use?

[hw]

On Tue, 2024-02-06 at 11:11 +0700, Max Nikulin wrote:
> On 05/02/2024 18:37, hw wrote:
> > With xmodmap, I was able to adjust the layout as needed.  With
> > wayland, I can't do that anymore
> 
> Untested:
> 
> https://who-t.blogspot.com/2020/02/user-specific-xkb-configuration-part-1.html
> User-specific XKB configuration - part 1
> 
> and I have heard about a low-level trick
> 
> /etc/udev/hwdb.d/90-custom-keyboard.hwdb
> evdev:input:b0003v1A2Cp0E24*
>   KEYBOARD_KEY_70039=f14

ls -la /etc/udev/hwdb.d/
total 0
drwxr-xr-x. 1 root root  0 Jan 22 01:00 .
drwxr-xr-x. 1 root root 82 Feb  5 13:03 ..

But this is on Fedora, and perhaps Debian does it differently.

> However I am unsure if it is possible to remap "Fn" key, it may be 
> handled by device firmware.

IIUC that is the case: The number of keys the PC hardware can deal
with is (was) limited, and it's less than 122.  There used to be
terminals that could use all 122 keys, using connectors that don't fit
PCs.  So a keyboard to be connected to a PC which has 122 keys is
either incompatibel, or you can't use all keys, or the
hardware/firmware in the keyboard translates (some) keys to what a PC
can understand.

In case of the 122 key keyoard I'm using, its hard-/firmware
translates keys like F14 to Shift+4.  IIRC that was the classical way
to press F14 (because someone made up that pressing Shift+F4 should be
called F14 because they wanted more keys for some software).  There is
probably no scan code for F14 a PC would understand because it doesn't
exist for a PC.  This keyboard has other keys like 'Help' that it also
translates to something a PC can understand.

Re: How can we change the keyboard layout? (was: what keyboard do you use?)

[Brian Sammon]

On Mon, 05 Feb 2024 21:06:30 +0100
hw  wrote:

> Yes, it's a misunderstanding: How can we change the keyboard layout?

I recently dug into this because I am running Debian on a Chromebook, and I 
wanted to map the Google-key (located next to the A key, where you usually 
expect Caps-Lock to be) to be a Ctrl, for Emacs-Correctness.  I wanted a 
solution that would also work when I used an external keyboard (which has an 
actual CapsLock next to the A), and would work both in X and in console mode.

The solution I found, which should work when using Wayland as well, was to 
customize the lowlevel scancode-to-keycode mapping that is managed by udev.  
You can have different remappings for different keyboard models.

This keymapping system is very powerful, but somewhat ideosyncratic, and 
somewhat poorly documented.  And it's an edit-the-configfile system; I'm not 
aware of any GUI config tools for it.

It took me over 2 hours to figure out and set up, after which I had a scrambled 
pile of notes (in a text file) but not the energy to clean them up.  The next 
time I do it I expect it'll take me about an hour (if the same process still 
applies) instead of the 15 minutes it would take if I did a proper job of 
documenting it for myself.

Some of the webpages in my notes that I remember being useful are:
https://wiki.archlinux.org/title/Keyboard_input
https://yulistic.gitlab.io/2017/12/linux-keymapping-with-udev-hwdb/ (including 
some of the comments that contain more recent info)
https://medium.com/@canadaduane/key-remapping-in-linux-2021-edition-47320999d2aa

Some somewhat-informative files on my computer were
/lib/udev/hwdb.d/60-keyboard.hwdb (comes with udev)
/usr/include/linux/input-event-codes.h (comes with linux-libc-dev package)

Gotchas include:
Some things *must* be in lowercase (keycodes, I think?)
Some things *must* be in uppercase (certain hexadecimal stuff?)
For best results, triple-check that the case you use is exactly the same as the 
example/sample config files.
If you get this wrong, udev will just ignore the erroneous parts of your config 
file, (and you might think it just didn't see it) instead of giving an error 
message.

On graphical environments [was: what keyboard do you use?]

[tomas]

On Mon, Feb 05, 2024 at 09:40:30PM +0100, hw wrote:

[...]

> Have you ever entered ipv4 addresses (and floats) on a German
> keyboard?  It's insane.

While I do agree with other of your points (CTRL-] being one,
although you exaggerated by one key), I don't understand this
one. I'm entering IPv4 addresses every day in a German keyboard
and I don't see any problem. IPv6 is trickier, though...

But floats? Where's the problem?

[...]

> Gnome has actually become usable about 2 years ago, though I miss
> fvwm [...]

That's why I came full circle back from GNOME (with some stops in
XFCE, awesome) to fvwm. I like a setup where the window manager is
*my* ally, not that of some krazy applications (browsers, I'm looking
at you). Including a key combo for xkill (I even clawed back the
little skull for the cursor :-)

Fvwm does work in Debian. Try it!

Cheers
-- 
t


signature.asc
Description: PGP signature

Re: what keyboard do you use?

[David Wright]

On Fri 02 Feb 2024 at 20:25:09 (-0500), Lee wrote:
> I bought a Dell desktop in 2019 and the keyboard just died :(
> 
> ssh in from another machine & do a 'sudo reboot now' and get an alert
> about 'Keyboard not found.'  on power up.  The keyboard also doesn't
> work in another machine so it's really & truly dead.
> 
> I figure there's a high percentage of keyboard jockeys here so ..
> which keyboard do you like and why?
> 
> I have a Logitech k740 attached to my Windows machine which is ok.
> Not great but OK.
> I found a spare Logitech k120 keyboard in the closet; its better than
> nothing but too thick for regular use.
> And the old Dell keyboard from the Windows machine - also too thick,
> the keys are too cramped and lettering has worn off on about 1/4 of
> the keys (which is why I got the Logitech 740)

Most of the time I use a Logitech K520, bought with a unified mouse,
though I use it with a wired optical mouse. We have another K520 and
a K540, also with mice, though the mice are scattered around. The
540 says Logitech Europe, though it's a US layout like the rest.

I also have an M 1391406 keyboard from 1988, with a GB layout, so
it's got 102 keys. I use it on a 2011 Dell tower (which has PS/2
connectors), paired with a 20-year old Logitech Pilot 3-button.

In a cupboard we've also got a couple of MS Internet Pros (US) and
a Viglen (GB), all USB wired. I don't like their touch.

Cheers,
David.

Re: what keyboard do you use?

[Max Nikulin]

On 05/02/2024 18:37, hw wrote:

With xmodmap, I was able to adjust the layout as needed.  With
wayland, I can't do that anymore


Untested:

https://who-t.blogspot.com/2020/02/user-specific-xkb-configuration-part-1.html
User-specific XKB configuration - part 1

and I have heard about a low-level trick

/etc/udev/hwdb.d/90-custom-keyboard.hwdb
evdev:input:b0003v1A2Cp0E24*
 KEYBOARD_KEY_70039=f14

However I am unsure if it is possible to remap "Fn" key, it may be 
handled by device firmware.

Re: what keyboard do you use?

[Peter Ehlert]

On 2/5/24 14:11, Ash Joubert wrote:

On 06/02/2024 04:15, Peter Ehlert wrote:

Logitech K270
full size, simple, $22 USD, fits me just fine


I use a Logitech MK270r 


good tip, packaged with a mouse for $6 more

thanks. I will get that bundle next time

Wireless Keyboard and Mouse Combo which has the same keyboard. 
Full-size standard layout plus media keys, physical power switches on 
both keyboard and mouse. I find the keyboard comfortable and not too 
loud, and the compact mouse suits my smallish hands. I have several of 
these sets for my various work and home computers.


Cheers,

Re: what keyboard do you use?

[Ash Joubert]

On 06/02/2024 04:15, Peter Ehlert wrote:

Logitech K270
full size, simple, $22 USD, fits me just fine


I use a Logitech MK270r Wireless Keyboard and Mouse Combo which has the 
same keyboard. Full-size standard layout plus media keys, physical power 
switches on both keyboard and mouse. I find the keyboard comfortable and 
not too loud, and the compact mouse suits my smallish hands. I have 
several of these sets for my various work and home computers.


Cheers,

--
Ash Joubert (they/them) 
Director / Game Developer
Transient Software Limited 
New Zealand

Re: How can we change the keyboard layout? (was: what keyboard do you use?)

[hw]

On Mon, 2024-02-05 at 14:34 -0600, David Wright wrote:
> [...]
>  "The German layout differs from the English (US and UK) layouts in
>   four major ways:

It's missing out on yet another major way: Umlaute.

The Umlaute take whole keys for themselves like other letters, and
since there aren't any more keys on the keyboard, they replace other
characters which contributes to the German keyboard layout being
rather awkward and difficult to use.  Whoever created it has
completely overlooked that computers aren't typewriters.

And it's very bad not to have a right Alt key.  That also has
consequences that make things worse.

> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_keyboard_layout

Re: what keyboard do you use?

[Steve McIntyre]

Lee wrote:
>
>I bought a Dell desktop in 2019 and the keyboard just died :(
>
>ssh in from another machine & do a 'sudo reboot now' and get an alert
>about 'Keyboard not found.'  on power up.  The keyboard also doesn't
>work in another machine so it's really & truly dead.
>
>I figure there's a high percentage of keyboard jockeys here so ..
>which keyboard do you like and why?

I used to love the old IBM Model M, and I used a few of those over the
years until I started having trouble with USB-PS/2 adapters. Then I
tried a new Unicomp USB keyboard. Very similar feel, as you'd expect,
but it didn't have the same build quality and the lower row of keys
started to die after ~5 years or so. It was also *very* loud, enough
to be a problem even in my home office.

About 2y aho I picked up a Filco Majestouch-2 with Cherry MX Brown
switches. I'm loving it - full size and a good level of mechanical
tactile feedback WITHOUT ALL THE NOISE ALL THE TIME. Very much
recommended.

-- 
Steve McIntyre, Cambridge, UK.st...@einval.com
Can't keep my eyes from the circling sky,
Tongue-tied & twisted, Just an earth-bound misfit, I...

Re: what keyboard do you use?

[hw]

On Mon, 2024-02-05 at 08:40 -0800, James H. H. Lampert wrote:
> On 2/2/24 5:25 PM, Lee wrote:
> > I figure there's a high percentage of keyboard jockeys here so ..
> > which keyboard do you like and why?
> 
> Unicomp. They acquired the rights and the tooling for the IBM buckling 
> spring technology.
> 
> If only they also offered mice that were as rugged as their keyboards.

... and trackballs like CST ones, and full metal versions.

Re: what keyboard do you use?

[hw]

On Mon, 2024-02-05 at 08:46 -0500, songbird wrote:
> hw wrote:
> ...
> > It's a badly missing feature from gnome settings that we can't change
> > the key bindings.  The layout must be defined somewhere, though.
> > Maybe someone knows where that is?
> 
>   in MATE there's keyboard settings you can use to switch
> around keyboards and common keys being swapped.

Does that work with wayland?

With a German keyboard, one of the keys I need to change is ~.
There's also ` when you get to do with databases, and a bunch of
others, like changing comma to dot and more that don't come to mind
atm.

Have you ever entered ipv4 addresses (and floats) on a German
keyboard?  It's insane.

> i don't use them now, but did in the past.  likely GNOME has
> something similar but i haven't touched that desktop in quite a long
> time.

Gnome has actually become usable about 2 years ago, though I miss
fvwm, and the lack of configurability with Gnome sucks badly.  I'd
like KDE much better, but KDE has always been rather slow and too
buggy.  When I tried KDE with wayland it didn't really work at all.

The only alternative I know of is sway, but I don't get along with
tiling WMs.  I like the idea; the problem is that they need to do
floating windows just as well, and they don't do that.

I had fvwm configured so it would manage the windows for me instead of
having to manage them myself, including tiling, but as long there's
no wayland version of fvwm, we're stuck with KDE and Gnome ...

Maybe give Gnome another try.  It does have its advantages, and it
can't hurt to check it out.

The additional keys on my 122 key keyboard help with Gnome (and other
things) a great deal.  So if you want to get a kind of Model M, get
122 keys.

Who still makes 122 key keyboards except Unicomp?

Re: How can we change the keyboard layout? (was: what keyboard do you use?)

[Ralph Aichinger]

On Mon, 2024-02-05 at 21:06 +0100, hw wrote:
> And what the hell is 'Strg' supposed to mean?

"Strg" is short for "Steuerung", just the literal translation of 
"control".

/ralph

Re: How can we change the keyboard layout? (was: what keyboard do you use?)

[David Wright]

On Mon 05 Feb 2024 at 21:06:30 (+0100), hw wrote:
> On Mon, 2024-02-05 at 15:26 +0100, Loris Bennett wrote:
> > hw  writes:
> > > On Sun, 2024-02-04 at 18:23 +, Michael Kjörling wrote:
> > > > On 4 Feb 2024 12:08 -0600, from n...@n0nb.us (Nate Bargmann):
> > > > > xmodmap trickery?  I am running GNOME on Wayland.
> > > > 
> > > > Or whatever the equivalent in Wayland (or GNOME) might be. Either way,
> > > > surely there must be _some_ way to map (sets of) keyboard scan codes
> > > > to symbols or actions, and that way is almost certainly reconfigurable
> > > > because otherwise everyone would be stuck with the exact same keyboard
> > > > layout, which would make for a rather poor internationalization/
> > > > localization experience.
> > > 
> > > We are stuck with it :(  Last time I checked, KDE isn't any better.
> > > 
> > > With xmodmap, I was able to adjust the layout as needed.  With
> > > wayland, I can't do that anymore and I'm stuck with an US layout ---
> > > which my keyboard fortunately physically has --- because some keys on
> > > German keyboards are so badly placed and configured that I need to be
> > > able to change the layout if want to use a German keyboard with a
> > > German layout.
> > 
> > Maybe I have misunderstood the problem, but I use Gnome with Wayland and
> > regularly switch between US and German layouts.  I just added the German
> > layout in the 'Keyboard' section of Gnome's Settings and switch with the
> > default shortcut of 'Super + space'.
> 
> Yes, it's a misunderstanding: How can we change the keyboard layout?
> 
> We can only pick or add another of the available layouts, but we can't
> change them.  If I were using a German keyboard, I could pick a German
> layout, and it would be a good starting point --- but I still won't be
> able to change the layout.  Some characters on a German keyboard (and
> layout) are placed very badly, and I need to change some of them for
> the keyboard to be usable.
> 
> And try to figure out how to press ^] on a German keyboard, for
> example, like telnet used to tell you.  It's no problem at all with an
> US keyboard without any modification.  With a German keyboard, you
> have to press something like AltGr+Shift+Strg+] ...  It took me like
> 30 years or so before I managed.  And what the hell is 'Strg' supposed
> to mean?

Control.

> So how do we change keyboard layouts when using wayland?  Why is there
> no way to do that in gnome settings (or KDEs equivalent) like there
> should be?
> 
> Picking from/adding a bunch of available keyboard layouts is an
> entirely obsolete feature.  I never need that.  I only need to be able
> to change the keyboard layout after picking one once in the installer.
> 
> In case I switch to a different keyboard which I might do every so
> many years when I feel like doing that, I also need to change it for
> the console in the first place.  How that is done changes like all the
> time, and when it's not right, the keyboard won't work right,
> especially in that the function keys to switch between consoles don't
> work[1].  So that's a big issue right there --- and then I need to be
> able to change the keyboard layout in wayland sessions unless I use an
> US keyboard.  But I only have one of those.
> 
> It's certainly a good feature for the 7 people who keep between
> switching different keyboard layouts and/or keyboards frequently.  But
> the relevant feature everyone needs is now entirely missing.
> 
> [1]: Maybe that changed with wayland; I haven't tried yet.

 "The German layout differs from the English (US and UK) layouts in
  four major ways:

The positions of the "Z" and "Y" keys are switched. In English,
the letter "y" is very common and the letter "z" is relatively
rare, whereas in German the letter "z" is very common and the
letter "y" is very uncommon.[1] The German layout places "z" in a
position where it can be struck by the index finger, rather than
by the weaker little finger.

Part of the keyboard is adapted to include umlauted vowels (ä, ö,
ü) and the sharp s (ß). (Some newer types of German keyboards
offer the fixed assignment Alt+++H → ẞ for its capitalized
version.)

Some of special key inscriptions are changed to a graphical symbol
(e.g. ⇪ Caps Lock is an upward arrow, ← Backspace a leftward
arrow). Most of the other abbreviations are replaced by German
abbreviations (thus e.g. "Ctrl" is translated to its German
equivalent "Strg", for Steuerung). "Esc" remains as

How can we change the keyboard layout? (was: what keyboard do you use?)

[hw]

On Mon, 2024-02-05 at 15:26 +0100, Loris Bennett wrote:
> hw  writes:
> 
> > On Sun, 2024-02-04 at 18:23 +, Michael Kjörling wrote:
> > > On 4 Feb 2024 12:08 -0600, from n...@n0nb.us (Nate Bargmann):
> > > > xmodmap trickery?  I am running GNOME on Wayland.
> > > 
> > > Or whatever the equivalent in Wayland (or GNOME) might be. Either way,
> > > surely there must be _some_ way to map (sets of) keyboard scan codes
> > > to symbols or actions, and that way is almost certainly reconfigurable
> > > because otherwise everyone would be stuck with the exact same keyboard
> > > layout, which would make for a rather poor internationalization/
> > > localization experience.
> > 
> > We are stuck with it :(  Last time I checked, KDE isn't any better.
> > 
> > With xmodmap, I was able to adjust the layout as needed.  With
> > wayland, I can't do that anymore and I'm stuck with an US layout ---
> > which my keyboard fortunately physically has --- because some keys on
> > German keyboards are so badly placed and configured that I need to be
> > able to change the layout if want to use a German keyboard with a
> > German layout.
> 
> Maybe I have misunderstood the problem, but I use Gnome with Wayland and
> regularly switch between US and German layouts.  I just added the German
> layout in the 'Keyboard' section of Gnome's Settings and switch with the
> default shortcut of 'Super + space'.

Yes, it's a misunderstanding: How can we change the keyboard layout?

We can only pick or add another of the available layouts, but we can't
change them.  If I were using a German keyboard, I could pick a German
layout, and it would be a good starting point --- but I still won't be
able to change the layout.  Some characters on a German keyboard (and
layout) are placed very badly, and I need to change some of them for
the keyboard to be usable.

And try to figure out how to press ^] on a German keyboard, for
example, like telnet used to tell you.  It's no problem at all with an
US keyboard without any modification.  With a German keyboard, you
have to press something like AltGr+Shift+Strg+] ...  It took me like
30 years or so before I managed.  And what the hell is 'Strg' supposed
to mean?

So how do we change keyboard layouts when using wayland?  Why is there
no way to do that in gnome settings (or KDEs equivalent) like there
should be?

Picking from/adding a bunch of available keyboard layouts is an
entirely obsolete feature.  I never need that.  I only need to be able
to change the keyboard layout after picking one once in the installer.

In case I switch to a different keyboard which I might do every so
many years when I feel like doing that, I also need to change it for
the console in the first place.  How that is done changes like all the
time, and when it's not right, the keyboard won't work right,
especially in that the function keys to switch between consoles don't
work[1].  So that's a big issue right there --- and then I need to be
able to change the keyboard layout in wayland sessions unless I use an
US keyboard.  But I only have one of those.

It's certainly a good feature for the 7 people who keep between
switching different keyboard layouts and/or keyboards frequently.  But
the relevant feature everyone needs is now entirely missing.


[1]: Maybe that changed with wayland; I haven't tried yet.

Re: what keyboard do you use?

[hw]

On Mon, 2024-02-05 at 08:40 -0500, songbird wrote:
> hw wrote:
> > On Sun, 2024-02-04 at 09:43 -0500, songbird wrote:
> ...
> > >   if they made them with a metal base mine would probably
> > > still be working, but the plastic base is too flexible for
> > > me.  i have two dead ones.  :(  the pressure fitted ribbon
> > > cable connection is a really bad design and those plastic
> > > tabs break off.
> > > 
> > >   otherwise the feel is good.  very loud when i'm writing...
> > 
> > IIRC IBM omitted the metal plate long time ago.  What are you doing
> > that it's too wobbly for you?
> 
>   it's not wobbly it is the entire keyboard flexes when you
> use it in a non-conventional manner.  i do not use them on a
> flat desktop, i have them laying across my lap as a am laying
> here on my comfy perch

Hm, ok, I still find it amazing that it's so wobbly that the
wobblyness is causing issues since it's still relatively sturdy
compared to other keyboards.  They're not inflexible, though, so using
like them like this, it's not inconvieable that they break.

That pretty much leaves you with having to put a metal plate (like a
piece of 3mm aluminum) under any keyboard, and that'll probably make
it feel cold in your lap.

> [...]
>   i won't contact Unicomp again because despite their claims
> of having goals of great customer service i tried to resolve
> issues of a bad key and this repeated issue of malfunctioning
> connections and didn't get any satisfaction.  the key problem
> was noted and should have been covered under the 1yr warranty,
> but when i brought it up i got static and resistance.  three
> strikes and i'm done with them.

I'm sorry to hear that.  It seems like they cut back on the models and
options a bit, so perhaps they also cut back on customer service.  I
can't tell since I was so lucky as to get mine through German ebay,
and it cost less than what they cost new though it was practically
new.  The shipping alone may cost more than the keyboard itself if I
were to order directly from them :(

>   i did like the restored keyboard project[*] and read through
> their website and history to follow it for a few hours but
> the overall price is just too much ($300-500).

Oh!  I didn't notice that they have come this far and now even offer
different models!  I didn't like the layout of the Model F they
planned a few years ago, and I found the price too steep for a
keyboard the layout of which I don't want.

I'll have to check out their web site; if I could get a F104 Model M
in all metal for 300, it may be worth thinking about getting one ---
but the shipping will probably forbid it.

I do like full size keyboards like the Model M and even more so the
122 key version.  It kinda sucks that every other keyboard is smaller,
especially since the keys are squeezed so tightly together that it can
be difficult to type on it.  The Cherry G80, for example, has that
problem --- it's almost as if Casio designed it like their watches
since they're trying to sell those with bracelets sized for puppets
and small children, which are way too short for anyone with normal
size wrists.

> $80 for what i have now was acceptable.

Which one is that?  It must be an unusually sturdy one.  Or did you
put a metal plate under it?

> [*] https://www.modelfkeyboards.com/

Re: what keyboard do you use?

[James H. H. Lampert]

On 2/4/24 9:56 AM, Michael Kjörling wrote:


If you contact them and ask, they can probably tell you whether the
key caps . . . can be flipped physically.


Unicomp can and will make custom keycaps.

--
JHHL

Re: what keyboard do you use?

[James H. H. Lampert]

I also wouldn't mind one bit if somebody came up with a computer 
keyboard that exactly duplicates the key arrangement and feel of a 
Linotype keyboard.


Not for practical daily use, mind you (I'll stick with my Unicomps); 
rather, as a practice instrument for those who occasionally run Linotype 
and Intertype machines, and for interpretive exhibits in graphic arts 
museums (given that I spend my Saturdays docenting at the International 
Printing Museum, I'd find both useful).


"etaoin shrdlu"

--
JHHL

Re: what keyboard do you use?

[James H. H. Lampert]

On 2/2/24 5:25 PM, Lee wrote:

I figure there's a high percentage of keyboard jockeys here so ..
which keyboard do you like and why?


Unicomp. They acquired the rights and the tooling for the IBM buckling 
spring technology.


If only they also offered mice that were as rugged as their keyboards.

--
JHHL

Re: what keyboard do you use?

[Peter Ehlert]

On 2/2/24 17:25, Lee wrote:

I bought a Dell desktop in 2019 and the keyboard just died :(

ssh in from another machine & do a 'sudo reboot now' and get an alert
about 'Keyboard not found.'  on power up.  The keyboard also doesn't
work in another machine so it's really & truly dead.

I figure there's a high percentage of keyboard jockeys here so ..
which keyboard do you like and why?


Logitech K270

full size, simple, $22 USD, fits me just fine




I have a Logitech k740 attached to my Windows machine which is ok.
Not great but OK.
I found a spare Logitech k120 keyboard in the closet; its better than
nothing but too thick for regular use.
And the old Dell keyboard from the Windows machine - also too thick,
the keys are too cramped and lettering has worn off on about 1/4 of
the keys (which is why I got the Logitech 740)

Thanks
Lee

Re: what keyboard do you use?

[Loris Bennett]

hw  writes:

> On Sun, 2024-02-04 at 18:23 +, Michael Kjörling wrote:
>> On 4 Feb 2024 12:08 -0600, from n...@n0nb.us (Nate Bargmann):
>> > xmodmap trickery?  I am running GNOME on Wayland.
>> 
>> Or whatever the equivalent in Wayland (or GNOME) might be. Either way,
>> surely there must be _some_ way to map (sets of) keyboard scan codes
>> to symbols or actions, and that way is almost certainly reconfigurable
>> because otherwise everyone would be stuck with the exact same keyboard
>> layout, which would make for a rather poor internationalization/
>> localization experience.
>
> We are stuck with it :(  Last time I checked, KDE isn't any better.
>
> With xmodmap, I was able to adjust the layout as needed.  With
> wayland, I can't do that anymore and I'm stuck with an US layout ---
> which my keyboard fortunately physically has --- because some keys on
> German keyboards are so badly placed and configured that I need to be
> able to change the layout if want to use a German keyboard with a
> German layout.

Maybe I have misunderstood the problem, but I use Gnome with Wayland and
regularly switch between US and German layouts.  I just added the German
layout in the 'Keyboard' section of Gnome's Settings and switch with the
default shortcut of 'Super + space'.

> It's one of these basic things we shouldn't need to have any trouble
> at all with, and it really pisses me off.
>
> All the developers are proabably Americans and never come across this
> problem.  Why else won't they let us change the keyobard layout as we
> need to.

-- 
This signature is currently under constuction.

Re: what keyboard do you use?

[songbird]

hw wrote:
> On Sun, 2024-02-04 at 09:43 -0500, songbird wrote:
...
>>   if they made them with a metal base mine would probably
>> still be working, but the plastic base is too flexible for
>> me.  i have two dead ones.  :(  the pressure fitted ribbon
>> cable connection is a really bad design and those plastic
>> tabs break off.
>> 
>>   otherwise the feel is good.  very loud when i'm writing...
>
> IIRC IBM omitted the metal plate long time ago.  What are you doing
> that it's too wobbly for you?

  it's not wobbly it is the entire keyboard flexes when you
use it in a non-conventional manner.  i do not use them on a
flat desktop, i have them laying across my lap as a am laying
here on my comfy perch (i find sitting uncomfortable and 
eventually painful so i don't do it any more - instead i
sprawl out and have some pillows propping me up a little bit).

  i didn't really figure this out until it was too late for
the second keyboard (a replacement for the first which flaked
out right after the warranty period was up).  after i got the
2nd keyboard i took the first one apart hoping i could fix it
but there were broken plastic tabs and then the pressure
ribbon connection so i just left it aside for parts for the 
new one.  the new one also started having issues within about
a year and a half.

  the first keyboard may have been damaged in shipping based
upon the broken plastic tabs inside, but i can't say for sure
all i know is that it is not built sturdy enough for my use.

  if i knew that flexing was bad i could have come up with a
board or piece of metal to put underneath it to begin with.
this is why i'm mentioning it because there may be someone
else who sees this topic/thread who's doing something like i
am and i don't want them to be out of a keyboard that other-
wise may last quite a long time.

  if i can find a way to get keyboards functional again with-
out costing so much (the pressure ribbon connection just is
not seeming reliable enough) i'd love to have them working
again.  youtube vids are not really covering how to do this
sort of repair (making that connection reliable again).

  i won't contact Unicomp again because despite their claims
of having goals of great customer service i tried to resolve
issues of a bad key and this repeated issue of malfunctioning
connections and didn't get any satisfaction.  the key problem
was noted and should have been covered under the 1yr warranty,
but when i brought it up i got static and resistance.  three
strikes and i'm done with them.

  i did like the restored keyboard project[*] and read through
their website and history to follow it for a few hours but
the overall price is just too much ($300-500).  $80 for what
i have now was acceptable.

[*] https://www.modelfkeyboards.com/


  songbird

Re: what keyboard do you use?

[songbird]

hw wrote:
...
> It's a badly missing feature from gnome settings that we can't change
> the key bindings.  The layout must be defined somewhere, though.
> Maybe someone knows where that is?

  in MATE there's keyboard settings you can use to switch
around keyboards and common keys being swapped.  i don't use
them now, but did in the past.  likely GNOME has something
similar but i haven't touched that desktop in quite a long
time.


  songbird

Re: what keyboard do you use?

[Dan Ritter]

Henrik Morsing wrote: 
> Happy Hacking lite for the last 20+ years, absolutely nothing else will 
> suffice. And I work faster than any colleague I've ever met because of it.
> 
> And it has to be that exact version (they don't make it anymore) because of 
> the right-side Fn key and the separate arrow keys.
> 
> So it will be a task over the next 50 years getting my current one 
> repaired/replaced should it break.

You might want to buy a spare as soon as you see one and wrap it
up against dust and mechanical accidents.

-dsr-

Re: what keyboard do you use?

[hw]

On Sun, 2024-02-04 at 18:23 +, Michael Kjörling wrote:
> On 4 Feb 2024 12:08 -0600, from n...@n0nb.us (Nate Bargmann):
> > xmodmap trickery?  I am running GNOME on Wayland.
> 
> Or whatever the equivalent in Wayland (or GNOME) might be. Either way,
> surely there must be _some_ way to map (sets of) keyboard scan codes
> to symbols or actions, and that way is almost certainly reconfigurable
> because otherwise everyone would be stuck with the exact same keyboard
> layout, which would make for a rather poor internationalization/
> localization experience.

We are stuck with it :(  Last time I checked, KDE isn't any better.

With xmodmap, I was able to adjust the layout as needed.  With
wayland, I can't do that anymore and I'm stuck with an US layout ---
which my keyboard fortunately physically has --- because some keys on
German keyboards are so badly placed and configured that I need to be
able to change the layout if want to use a German keyboard with a
German layout.

It's one of these basic things we shouldn't need to have any trouble
at all with, and it really pisses me off.

All the developers are proabably Americans and never come across this
problem.  Why else won't they let us change the keyobard layout as we
need to.

Re: what keyboard do you use?

[Henrik Morsing]

On Fri, Feb 02, 2024 at 08:25:09PM -0500, Lee wrote:


I have a Logitech k740 attached to my Windows machine which is ok.
Not great but OK.
I found a spare Logitech k120 keyboard in the closet; its better than
nothing but too thick for regular use.
And the old Dell keyboard from the Windows machine - also too thick,
the keys are too cramped and lettering has worn off on about 1/4 of
the keys (which is why I got the Logitech 740)



Happy Hacking lite for the last 20+ years, absolutely nothing else will 
suffice. And I work faster than any colleague I've ever met because of it.

And it has to be that exact version (they don't make it anymore) because of the 
right-side Fn key and the separate arrow keys.

So it will be a task over the next 50 years getting my current one 
repaired/replaced should it break.

Regards,
Henrik Morsing

Re: what keyboard do you use?

[hw]

On Sun, 2024-02-04 at 11:36 -0600, Nate Bargmann wrote:
> * On 2024 04 Feb 04:23 -0600, hw wrote:
> > On Fri, 2024-02-02 at 20:09 -0600, Nate Bargmann wrote:
> > > [...]
> > > I have several of the now classic IBM Model M keyboards I procured in
> > > the '90s.  Modern BIOSes don't like them even with a PS/2 to USB
> > > adapter so I gave up on them.
> > 
> > They might work with a so-called active adapter.  IIRC it has
> > something to do with the adpater suppling power.  With some research
> > and an investment of like $5, you can probably still use your
> > keyboards.
> 
> As I use GNOME, I need the left menu key as I have the hotspot disabled
> to open the overview.  My old Model Ms lack that key.
> 
> > Unicomp[1] still makes these keyboards, and you can get them for USB.
> 
> I don't like their swapping of the right Alt and Menu keys unless the
> keyboard can be configured to swap them back.  Otherwise, I would prefer
> the right Menu key in that position be removed and that area given back
> to the Space bar.  I don't find any documentation on their Web site
> about that capability.

Contact them, maybe you can get a layout you want --- or check out the
122 key version closeley.

> I do like about the Daskeyboard is that instead of being the right Menu
> key that key is a Function key much like a laptop and it activates media
> control keys on several of the function keys.  It's quite handy to raise
> or lower the speaker volume when playing a video full screen.
> 
> > I'm using one right now (with 122 keys), and among all the different
> > keyboards I used over the last 40 years, I've never found anything
> > better than these buckling spring ones.
> 
> No question.  The M is the ultimate but unless someone can point me to a
> document that shows swapping those two keys, I won't be buying.

I'm not sure what you mean.  I don't have these stupid extra keys
nobody wants or needs they put into the row with the space bar --- I
guess you mean those?  Those get in the way all the time and I hate
them.  On the 122 key version, they are at the bottom of the small
block of keys an the left where they are not in the way.

You can pull all the keycaps and swap them around if you like.  If
you're still using Xorg, you should be able to reconfigure the key
bindings.

I couldn't find out how to do that with wayland :(  Without being able
to modify the key bindings, I'm stuck with an US layout, and keyboards
with a physical US layout are almost impossible to get here.

It's a badly missing feature from gnome settings that we can't change
the key bindings.  The layout must be defined somewhere, though.
Maybe someone knows where that is?

Re: what keyboard do you use?

[hw]

On Sun, 2024-02-04 at 09:43 -0500, songbird wrote:
> hw wrote:
> > On Fri, 2024-02-02 at 20:09 -0600, Nate Bargmann wrote:
> > > [...]
> > > I have several of the now classic IBM Model M keyboards I procured in
> > > the '90s.  Modern BIOSes don't like them even with a PS/2 to USB
> > > adapter so I gave up on them.
> > 
> > They might work with a so-called active adapter.  IIRC it has
> > something to do with the adpater suppling power.  With some research
> > and an investment of like $5, you can probably still use your
> > keyboards.
> > 
> > Unicomp[1] still makes these keyboards, and you can get them for USB.
> > 
> > I'm using one right now (with 122 keys), and among all the different
> > keyboards I used over the last 40 years, I've never found anything
> > better than these buckling spring ones.
> 
>   if they made them with a metal base mine would probably
> still be working, but the plastic base is too flexible for
> me.  i have two dead ones.  :(  the pressure fitted ribbon
> cable connection is a really bad design and those plastic
> tabs break off.
> 
>   otherwise the feel is good.  very loud when i'm writing...

IIRC IBM omitted the metal plate long time ago.  What are you doing
that it's too wobbly for you?

Re: what keyboard do you use?

[Anssi Saari]

Lee  writes:

> I figure there's a high percentage of keyboard jockeys here so ..
> which keyboard do you like and why?

I've had a fnatic ministreak for a few years. Why?
- RGB backlight, I set it to a pleasant green.
- remappable keys, remappings stored in the keyboard so it works the
  same everywhere. Two layouts but I only need one.
- mechanical keys but quiet ones (Cherry MX Red Silent).
- tenkeyless, so without the numeric pad I don't need.
- Some media keys, I really only use volume up and down.

Only improvement I'd like is macros that you could copy-paste in and
adjust their speed. This has macros but you have to type them in which
isn't that helpful. My use case is getting passwords into stupid devices
and apps, thankfully it's not that common but there's always that one
thing on some gizmo that insists you have to type in the password. In
fact, my TV has at least two.

Before this I had a Happy Hacking keyboard lite for about 20 years. It
was and is great, just a little short on keys and lacks the other
features mentioned above too.

Re: what keyboard do you use?

[Michael Kjörling]

On 4 Feb 2024 12:08 -0600, from n...@n0nb.us (Nate Bargmann):
> xmodmap trickery?  I am running GNOME on Wayland.

Or whatever the equivalent in Wayland (or GNOME) might be. Either way,
surely there must be _some_ way to map (sets of) keyboard scan codes
to symbols or actions, and that way is almost certainly reconfigurable
because otherwise everyone would be stuck with the exact same keyboard
layout, which would make for a rather poor internationalization/
localization experience.

If you're happy with your current keyboard, great.

-- 
Michael Kjörling  https://michael.kjorling.se
“Remember when, on the Internet, nobody cared that you were a dog?”

Re: what keyboard do you use?

[Nate Bargmann]

* On 2024 04 Feb 11:57 -0600, Michael Kjörling wrote:
> On 4 Feb 2024 11:36 -0600, from n...@n0nb.us (Nate Bargmann):
> >> Unicomp[1] still makes these keyboards, and you can get them for USB.
> > 
> > I don't like their swapping of the right Alt and Menu keys unless the
> > keyboard can be configured to swap them back.
> 
> The keyboard doesn't care what's printed on the key caps; that should
> be purely a software configuration issue.
> 
> If you contact them and ask, they can probably tell you whether the
> key caps are of identical size for the two keys you have in mind for
> the particular keyboard configuration you're interested in, and thus
> can be flipped physically. Past that I expect it involves some Xmodmap
> trickery (or maybe treachery) to flip the mapping of the scan codes.

xmodmap trickery?  I am running GNOME on Wayland.  Maybe this
combination has a way to remap keys but that's not something I've been
inclined to do.  The daskeyboard suits me fine and I plan to just stick
with it.

- Nate

-- 
"The optimist proclaims that we live in the best of all
possible worlds.  The pessimist fears this is true."
Web: https://www.n0nb.us
Projects: https://github.com/N0NB
GPG fingerprint: 82D6 4F6B 0E67 CD41 F689 BBA6 FB2C 5130 D55A 8819



signature.asc
Description: PGP signature

Re: what keyboard do you use?

[Michael Kjörling]

On 4 Feb 2024 11:36 -0600, from n...@n0nb.us (Nate Bargmann):
>> Unicomp[1] still makes these keyboards, and you can get them for USB.
> 
> I don't like their swapping of the right Alt and Menu keys unless the
> keyboard can be configured to swap them back.

The keyboard doesn't care what's printed on the key caps; that should
be purely a software configuration issue.

If you contact them and ask, they can probably tell you whether the
key caps are of identical size for the two keys you have in mind for
the particular keyboard configuration you're interested in, and thus
can be flipped physically. Past that I expect it involves some Xmodmap
trickery (or maybe treachery) to flip the mapping of the scan codes.

-- 
Michael Kjörling  https://michael.kjorling.se
“Remember when, on the Internet, nobody cared that you were a dog?”

Re: what keyboard do you use?

[songbird]

hw wrote:
> On Fri, 2024-02-02 at 20:09 -0600, Nate Bargmann wrote:
>> [...]
>> I have several of the now classic IBM Model M keyboards I procured in
>> the '90s.  Modern BIOSes don't like them even with a PS/2 to USB
>> adapter so I gave up on them.
>
> They might work with a so-called active adapter.  IIRC it has
> something to do with the adpater suppling power.  With some research
> and an investment of like $5, you can probably still use your
> keyboards.
>
> Unicomp[1] still makes these keyboards, and you can get them for USB.
>
> I'm using one right now (with 122 keys), and among all the different
> keyboards I used over the last 40 years, I've never found anything
> better than these buckling spring ones.

  if they made them with a metal base mine would probably
still be working, but the plastic base is too flexible for
me.  i have two dead ones.  :(  the pressure fitted ribbon
cable connection is a really bad design and those plastic
tabs break off.

  otherwise the feel is good.  very loud when i'm writing...


  songbird

Re: what keyboard do you use?

[Nate Bargmann]

* On 2024 04 Feb 04:23 -0600, hw wrote:
> On Fri, 2024-02-02 at 20:09 -0600, Nate Bargmann wrote:
> > [...]
> > I have several of the now classic IBM Model M keyboards I procured in
> > the '90s.  Modern BIOSes don't like them even with a PS/2 to USB
> > adapter so I gave up on them.
> 
> They might work with a so-called active adapter.  IIRC it has
> something to do with the adpater suppling power.  With some research
> and an investment of like $5, you can probably still use your
> keyboards.

As I use GNOME, I need the left menu key as I have the hotspot disabled
to open the overview.  My old Model Ms lack that key.

> Unicomp[1] still makes these keyboards, and you can get them for USB.

I don't like their swapping of the right Alt and Menu keys unless the
keyboard can be configured to swap them back.  Otherwise, I would prefer
the right Menu key in that position be removed and that area given back
to the Space bar.  I don't find any documentation on their Web site
about that capability.

I do like about the Daskeyboard is that instead of being the right Menu
key that key is a Function key much like a laptop and it activates media
control keys on several of the function keys.  It's quite handy to raise
or lower the speaker volume when playing a video full screen.

> I'm using one right now (with 122 keys), and among all the different
> keyboards I used over the last 40 years, I've never found anything
> better than these buckling spring ones.

No question.  The M is the ultimate but unless someone can point me to a
document that shows swapping those two keys, I won't be buying.

- Nate

-- 
"The optimist proclaims that we live in the best of all
possible worlds.  The pessimist fears this is true."
Web: https://www.n0nb.us
Projects: https://github.com/N0NB
GPG fingerprint: 82D6 4F6B 0E67 CD41 F689 BBA6 FB2C 5130 D55A 8819



signature.asc
Description: PGP signature

Re: what keyboard do you use?

[Richmond]

hw  writes:

> On Fri, 2024-02-02 at 20:09 -0600, Nate Bargmann wrote:
>> [...]
>> I have several of the now classic IBM Model M keyboards I procured in
>> the '90s.  Modern BIOSes don't like them even with a PS/2 to USB
>> adapter so I gave up on them.
>
> They might work with a so-called active adapter.  IIRC it has
> something to do with the adpater suppling power.  With some research
> and an investment of like $5, you can probably still use your
> keyboards.
>

Yes, I am using an IBM keyboard right now via usb into a laptop, with
this adapter:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B07FLD3T8T

Re: what keyboard do you use?

[hw]

On Fri, 2024-02-02 at 20:25 -0500, Lee wrote:
> [...]
> I figure there's a high percentage of keyboard jockeys here so ..
> which keyboard do you like and why?

It comes down to your personal preference and on how much you're
willing to pay for a good keybard.  I'm using [1].

I'm using it because I'm finding these buckling spring keyboards the
best variant to type on.  I've never found anything better in the last
40 years.

They also have the advantage that they have a decent size not only for
the keys and their spacing, but also for the housing which is designed
so you can put stuff like pencils on it.

The ones from IBM are so old that they're usually somewhat worn out.
They also have become difficult to get and expensive.  Unless you can
find a new old stock and are willing to pay for it, you're better off
getting one from Unicomp.

I even got a new Model M a couple years ago for a steal, and I still
have it.  I like the Unicomp better because of the extra keys without
which I wouldn't know what to do, and it feels a little better to type
on than the Model M.

As an alternative, you could look for a Cherry G80.  Apparently they
don't make them anymore (And I wouldn't buy anything of what they show
on their web site now.).  It's a pity since they were acceptable
keyboards if you like their switches and if you could get one for a
decent price.  They were built cheaply and somewhat wobbly, and I
don't like that cheapness at all, but the money was in the switches.
When you have one have on your desk for typing it's fine.  The
switches are good (though I don't particularly like them, but that's
personal preference) and not in any way cheap or wobbly.

I would like Outemu switches way better than the Cherry ones if the
Outemu ones weren't so wobbly.  They give me nicer feedback while the
Cherry switches feel like nothing (perhaps that's intentional), and
I'm finding their way of travel too small while the Outemu switches
seem to travel a little further.  If you can find a keyboard with
Outemus, it might be worth a try.

Stay away from these so-called 'gaming keyboards'.  Everything that's
labled 'gaming' is usually either incompatible, otherwise bad, or
overpriced, or all of that at the same time.  So if you find a 'gaming
keyboard' at least make sure it's compatible before buying.


[1]:
https://www.pckeyboard.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD_Code=UB40B5A

Re: what keyboard do you use?

[hw]

On Fri, 2024-02-02 at 20:09 -0600, Nate Bargmann wrote:
> [...]
> I have several of the now classic IBM Model M keyboards I procured in
> the '90s.  Modern BIOSes don't like them even with a PS/2 to USB
> adapter so I gave up on them.

They might work with a so-called active adapter.  IIRC it has
something to do with the adpater suppling power.  With some research
and an investment of like $5, you can probably still use your
keyboards.

Unicomp[1] still makes these keyboards, and you can get them for USB.

I'm using one right now (with 122 keys), and among all the different
keyboards I used over the last 40 years, I've never found anything
better than these buckling spring ones.


[1]: https://www.pckeyboard.com/page/category/UKBD

Re: what keyboard do you use?

[Roger Price]

On Sat, 3 Feb 2024, Russell L. Harris wrote:


On Fri, Feb 02, 2024 at 08:25:09PM -0500, Lee wrote:
>which keyboard do you like and why?



...  Cherry makes/uses a good keyswitch.  Buy Cherry.  RLH


I bought a Cherry MX 3000 USB.  In use permanently in a very dusty environment 
next to a wood stove.  No problems.  Roger

Re: what keyboard do you use?

[Russell L. Harris]

On Sat, Feb 03, 2024 at 09:10:49AM -0500, Lee wrote:

On Fri, Feb 2, 2024 at 8:57???PM Russell L. Harris  wrote:


On Fri, Feb 02, 2024 at 08:25:09PM -0500, Lee wrote:
>which keyboard do you like and why?

CHERRY MX BOARD 3.0 (Purchased several years ago; in daily use since.)
Excellent mechanical quality of the keyswitch.  Keyswitch plungers
which start sticking (high resistance upon depression) is the biggest
problem I have found.  The next-greatest problem is intermittent
contact of key switch contacts.  Both problems are maddening for the
touch typist.


OK - good to know.  I am a touch typist, so I guess I'm giving that one a pass.


I am saying that these are the biggest problems I have found with
keyboards in general, and that the CHERRY MX BOARD 3.0 does not have
these problems.  If you are a touch typist, focus upon the quality of
the keyswitch.  Cherry makes/uses a good keyswitch.  Buy Cherry.  RLH

Re: what keyboard do you use?

[Lee]

On Fri, Feb 2, 2024 at 10:51 PM Ralph Aichinger wrote:
>
> On Fri, 2024-02-02 at 20:25 -0500, Lee wrote:
> > I figure there's a high percentage of keyboard jockeys here so ..
> > which keyboard do you like and why?
>
> I like the flat style similar to what is in many notebooks. Current
> favourites are the Apple keyboards (expensive though, for what they
> are), the Microsoft Designer Compact Keyboard (stupid generic model
> name), that seems to have a problem for some that the electronics die
> prematurely, it might not be able to connect any longer after some
> time. Great if it works though, can often be gotten relatively cheaply
> for about half the normal price. Very minimal design, you can't take
> away much more from a keyboard:
>
> https://www.microsoft.com/en/accessories/products/keyboards/microsoft-designer-compact-keyboard?activetab=pivot:overviewtab

That looks nice for a tablet or something that you'll be carrying around.

> And a new fascination of mine, the Logitech MX series, also kind
> of expensive, and with rather ugly design, but typing feels just
> wonderful.

Logitech seems to be quitting the corded keyboard business :(  I go to
their keyboard selection site, select full sized with numpad and
corded and only two keyboards show up - the one I pulled out of the
closet that I think is too tall and a K-845.  I don't have a whole lot
of luck with batteries or wireless, so a cord is a must for me.

> Of the cheaper ones, I like the Logitech k280e. Feels quite OK for the
> price, not on the level of the obove three though. Also large, clunky
> and heavy.
>
> I used to be a full layout (with keypad) person, but recently I began
> to like the smaller layouts. Takes up less space on the desk, only
> thing I miss are the full cursor keys. Easier to move around on the
> desk, which I do a lot.
>
> Keyboards are a product where preferences diverge a lot and are very
> personal. Fortunately there is lots of choice in the market currently.

As I'm seeing :)

Thanks
Lee

Re: what keyboard do you use?

[Michael Kjörling]

On 3 Feb 2024 08:34 +0100, from m...@dorfdsl.de (Marco Moock):
>> I figure there's a high percentage of keyboard jockeys here so ..
>> which keyboard do you like and why?
> 
> IBM Model M.
> They are still made by the company Unicomp, with PS/2, DIN or USB.

I was going to suggest that too, but OP in Feb 3 14:31 UTC dismissed
daskeyboard because loud isn't an option, so I guess that makes a
Model M an even worse choice.

Probably can't beat it for durability, though.

Whichever keyboard you go for, I do recommend to make sure that either
it's hermetically sealed (unlikely...) or that the keys are easily
removable and replaceable for cleaning. Because no matter how clean
you try to keep it, grime eventually does get in and start interfering
with the mechanism.

-- 
Michael Kjörling  https://michael.kjorling.se
“Remember when, on the Internet, nobody cared that you were a dog?”

Re: what keyboard do you use?

[Jörg-Volker Peetz]

Dan Ritter wrote on 03/02/2024 13:16:


As far as I know, Logitech doesn't make a mechanical keyboard.



Logitech now has, with and w/o ten key block: search for "Logitech MX 
Mechanical". They are wireless with USB adapter and have a configurable 
mono-color key light.

I myself use the MX Mechanical Mini. Can be configured from Linux with solaar.

Regards,
Jörg.

Re: what keyboard do you use?

[Lee]

On Fri, Feb 2, 2024 at 9:09 PM Nate Bargmann wrote:
>
> * On 2024 02 Feb 19:26 -0600, Lee wrote:
> > I bought a Dell desktop in 2019 and the keyboard just died :(
> >
> > ssh in from another machine & do a 'sudo reboot now' and get an alert
> > about 'Keyboard not found.'  on power up.  The keyboard also doesn't
> > work in another machine so it's really & truly dead.
> >
> > I figure there's a high percentage of keyboard jockeys here so ..
> > which keyboard do you like and why?
>
> I have several of the now classic IBM Model M keyboards I procured in
> the '90s.  Modern BIOSes don't like them even with a PS/2 to USB
> adapter so I gave up on them.  The Lenovo KU-0225 is a good keyboard
> with the "standard" extra keys that are useful in some desktops.  It is
> full size and quiet.
>
> My main keyboard is a daskeyboard I bought several years ago with the
> Cherry key switches  It is thick so you might not like it and it is
> loud.  It has the same number of keys as the Lenovo, 104, I think.  This
> one was not cheap while the Lenovo was considerably less expensive.

Full size and quiet are good qualities :)  Tall not so much.. the
Logitech that I pulled out of the closet and think is too high is less
than 1 inch high.  The Lenovo is listed as 1.34 inches, so that's
probably not for me.
Thick and loud is  a no, so I'll pass on the daskeyboard.

Thanks
Lee

Re: what keyboard do you use?

[Lee]

On Fri, Feb 2, 2024 at 8:57 PM Russell L. Harris  wrote:
>
> On Fri, Feb 02, 2024 at 08:25:09PM -0500, Lee wrote:
> >which keyboard do you like and why?
>
> CHERRY MX BOARD 3.0 (Purchased several years ago; in daily use since.)
> Excellent mechanical quality of the keyswitch.  Keyswitch plungers
> which start sticking (high resistance upon depression) is the biggest
> problem I have found.  The next-greatest problem is intermittent
> contact of key switch contacts.  Both problems are maddening for the
> touch typist.

OK - good to know.  I am a touch typist, so I guess I'm giving that one a pass.
Thanks
Lee

Re: what keyboard do you use?

[Eric S Fraga]

I have two: a Kinesis Advantage 2 and a Corsair gaming mechanical
keyboard, both USB connected.  I use the latter almost exclusively and
love it: the feel of the mechanical keys, the sound of those keys, and
the keyboard lighting.  I seldom use the Kinesis: just could not get
used to it.

-- 
Eric S Fraga via gnus (Emacs 30.0.50 2023-09-14) on Debian 12.2

Re: what keyboard do you use?

[Dan Ritter]

jeremy ardley wrote: 
> Lee wrote:
> > > I bought a Dell desktop in 2019 and the keyboard just died :(
> 
> I have decided to go to the mechanical keyboard style where you get positive
> feedback on key strokes.
> 
> For me there are two 'colors' that are interesting
> 
> Blue which has strong tactile feedback, requires slight force, and gives a
> loud audible mechanical click on each keystroke.
> 
> Brown is the same as blue but has no load mechanical click, just the tactile
> feedback.
> 
> I don't necessarily make no mistakes but I know certainly when I have struck
> a key.
> 
> As far as brands go, most ones with names you don't recognise won't last a
> year. Probably a logitech one would be O.K.?
> 
> You can also get ones with keyboard lighting. It is actually helpful, though
> ones that do light shows are to be avoided. Just a simple green or such and
> perhaps ones that briefly dim the light on each key when you strike it.

As far as I know, Logitech doesn't make a mechanical keyboard.

Brands which have proven reliable to me:

Keychron
Ducky
CoolerMaster's MasterKeys series

-dsr-

Re: what keyboard do you use?

[songbird]

jeremy ardley wrote:
...
> You can also get ones with keyboard lighting. It is actually helpful, 
> though ones that do light shows are to be avoided. Just a simple green 
> or such and perhaps ones that briefly dim the light on each key when you 
> strike it.

  you can change the light show by pressing various key
combinations or you can use software to do it for you 
when the machine boots.  i decided to just use the key
presses and avoid having yet more packages installed.

  the light show i prefer for most typing is the one
which lights up the key just a little when it is 
pressed.  so it is not too bright as to be distracting
but it does provide some feedback.  you can adjust how
bright you want it to be in five increments.  i leave
it at one.  i rarely need to see all of the keys at 
one time.  when getting going for the day i have an id
and password so that is when i want all the keys visible
- after that it rarely matters, but it is easy enough to
change it back and forth.

  if you want to have some blinkin' lights you can put
on some nice effects when you press keys, at night it
can look like a Christmas tree.  :)  just to show someone.
i find it too distracting for normal operation.


  songbird

Re: what keyboard do you use?

[Marco Moock]

Am Fri, 2 Feb 2024 20:25:09 -0500
schrieb Lee :

> I figure there's a high percentage of keyboard jockeys here so ..
> which keyboard do you like and why?

IBM Model M.
They are still made by the company Unicomp, with PS/2, DIN or USB.

Re: what keyboard do you use?

[Marco Moock]

Am Fri, 2 Feb 2024 20:09:09 -0600
schrieb Nate Bargmann :

> I have several of the now classic IBM Model M keyboards I procured in
> the '90s.  Modern BIOSes don't like them even with a PS/2 to USB
> adapter so I gave up on them.

They need more power that normal keyboards, so not every converter
works.

I have a mainboard from 2019 wit PS/2 and the model M works fine.

Re: what keyboard do you use?

[jeremy ardley]

Lee wrote:

I bought a Dell desktop in 2019 and the keyboard just died :(


I have decided to go to the mechanical keyboard style where you get 
positive feedback on key strokes.


For me there are two 'colors' that are interesting

Blue which has strong tactile feedback, requires slight force, and gives 
a loud audible mechanical click on each keystroke.


Brown is the same as blue but has no load mechanical click, just the 
tactile feedback.


I don't necessarily make no mistakes but I know certainly when I have 
struck a key.


As far as brands go, most ones with names you don't recognise won't last 
a year. Probably a logitech one would be O.K.?


You can also get ones with keyboard lighting. It is actually helpful, 
though ones that do light shows are to be avoided. Just a simple green 
or such and perhaps ones that briefly dim the light on each key when you 
strike it.

Re: what keyboard do you use?

[David Christensen]

On 2/2/24 17:25, Lee wrote:

I bought a Dell desktop in 2019 and the keyboard just died :(

ssh in from another machine & do a 'sudo reboot now' and get an alert
about 'Keyboard not found.'  on power up.  The keyboard also doesn't
work in another machine so it's really & truly dead.

I figure there's a high percentage of keyboard jockeys here so ..
which keyboard do you like and why?

I have a Logitech k740 attached to my Windows machine which is ok.
Not great but OK.
I found a spare Logitech k120 keyboard in the closet; its better than
nothing but too thick for regular use.
And the old Dell keyboard from the Windows machine - also too thick,
the keys are too cramped and lettering has worn off on about 1/4 of
the keys (which is why I got the Logitech 740)

Thanks
Lee



The IBM Model M is the standard to which all other computer keyboards 
are compared.  The buckling spring design was created to provide a 
tactile experience comparable to an IBM Seletric typewriter, to support 
professional typists in an office environment.  I used and loved the 
Model M back in the day, but the noise gets tiresome and any persons not 
protected by a soundproof wall will hate you:


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Model_M_keyboard


Unicomp makes modernized variants:

https://www.pckeyboard.com/page/category/UKBD


I believe I have read postings by people who installed O-rings on their 
Model M's to reduce the noise.



Another reader mentioned Cherry.  You can get complete keyboards from 
Cherry and you can get keyboards from other manufacturers with Cherry MX 
mechanical switches.  Make sure you understand the various colors and 
your typing needs/ preferences:


https://www.keyboardco.com/blog/index.php/2012/12/an-introduction-to-cherry-mx-mechanical-switches/


I have been using a Keyed Up Labs ES-87 for the past several years.  I 
am a pounder and have worn out or broken many keyboards, but the KUL-87 
and its Cherry MX Clear switches have withstood me.  The noise level is 
tolerable when typing at full speed, but you can slow down and type 
half-stroke when you want minimal noise:


https://www.tweaktown.com/reviews/6625/keyed-up-labs-kul-es-87-tenkeyless-mechanical-keyboard-review/index.html


The bottom of the barrel are keyboards with rubber dome switches.  If 
you do any serious typing, you and your fingers will not be happy.  I 
use leftover dome switch keyboards on headless servers to prevent 
missing keyboard errors and to perform minimal sysadmin chores (entering 
encryption passphrases during boot, logging in as root, restarting, 
powering off, etc.).



I have noted that my older PS/2 keyboards and/or mice are not recognized 
by the motherboard firmware Setup utility on my newer Dell workstations 
and/or servers with PS/2 ports.  And, PS/2 keyboards and mice are not 
hot-pluggable.  So, unless you have some specific PS/2 need (gamer with 
large N-key rollover?), I suggest USB.



David

Re: what keyboard do you use?

[songbird]

Lee wrote:

> I bought a Dell desktop in 2019 and the keyboard just died :(
...

  a Corsair K70 CORE RGB Mechanical Gaming Keyboard.  my
previous keyboard was starting to miss key presses and
duplicating others.  since i also needed a new mouse it
was a day to get a refresh.  paid about $80 for it.

  works fine, did not install any software to mess with
the settings i just use the manual key presses to set
it after booting (i don't want lights flashing or moving
when i'm typing and i'm ok with not seeing the keys most
of the time so i turn the lights way down).

  it is a little stiff and very quiet compared to what
i'm used to but it's working fine.

  since they keys are partially clear to let light 
through i'm not worried about wearing the keycaps off.
if i get 3 years out of it i'll be happy.  i seem to
go from 1-3 years most of the time before something
breaks.

  it is not light, it is not thin.  i perch it on my
lap as i type, it has to be flat and kept flet by some-
thing better than plastic to not mess up the stuff 
inside (based upon previous keyboards that failed due 
to plastic flexing too much over time).

  so we'll see how this one works out longer term.


  songbird

Re: what keyboard do you use?

[Stefan Monnier]

> I figure there's a high percentage of keyboard jockeys here so ..
> which keyboard do you like and why?

My favorites are the old Thinkpad USB UltraNav travel keyboards
(http://salestores.com/stores/images/images_747/31P9490.jpg).  They even
come with a 2-port USB hub so you can connect a mouse directly to them
(and/or a security key, ... tho you can't go crazy because it has very
low power limits (and it's USB-1 only): no flash drive, for instance).
But they're becoming hard to find.

I also have one of those cheap 78-key compact keyboards and, beside
the lack of "page up"/"page down" keys (and of course the lack of
a trackpoint), I really like it.  Mine is a "no brand" model, but
it's fairly similar to the JLab Go wireless keyboard
(https://www.jlab.com/products/jlab-go-keyboard?variant=39457511407688),
except with a cable so I don't need to worry about batteries or
bluetooth connection.


Stefan

Re: what keyboard do you use?

[Joe Pfeiffer]

Lee  writes:

> I bought a Dell desktop in 2019 and the keyboard just died :(
>
> ssh in from another machine & do a 'sudo reboot now' and get an alert
> about 'Keyboard not found.'  on power up.  The keyboard also doesn't
> work in another machine so it's really & truly dead.
>
> I figure there's a high percentage of keyboard jockeys here so ..
> which keyboard do you like and why?
>
> I have a Logitech k740 attached to my Windows machine which is ok.
> Not great but OK.
> I found a spare Logitech k120 keyboard in the closet; its better than
> nothing but too thick for regular use.
> And the old Dell keyboard from the Windows machine - also too thick,
> the keys are too cramped and lettering has worn off on about 1/4 of
> the keys (which is why I got the Logitech 740)

A Logitech ergonomic keyboard that mimics the Microsoft Natural but,
sadly, has been out of production for many years. I don't know what I'll
do when it eventually dies, but I expect it'll be expensive...

Re: what keyboard do you use?

[Ralph Aichinger]

On Fri, 2024-02-02 at 20:25 -0500, Lee wrote:
> I figure there's a high percentage of keyboard jockeys here so ..
> which keyboard do you like and why?

I like the flat style similar to what is in many notebooks. Current
favourites are the Apple keyboards (expensive though, for what they
are), the Microsoft Designer Compact Keyboard (stupid generic model 
name), that seems to have a problem for some that the electronics die
prematurely, it might not be able to connect any longer after some
time. Great if it works though, can often be gotten relatively cheaply
for about half the normal price. Very minimal design, you can't take 
away much more from a keyboard:

https://www.microsoft.com/en/accessories/products/keyboards/microsoft-designer-compact-keyboard?activetab=pivot:overviewtab

And a new fascination of mine, the Logitech MX series, also kind
of expensive, and with rather ugly design, but typing feels just
wonderful.

Of the cheaper ones, I like the Logitech k280e. Feels quite OK for the
price, not on the level of the obove three though. Also large, clunky
and heavy.

I used to be a full layout (with keypad) person, but recently I began
to like the smaller layouts. Takes up less space on the desk, only
thing I miss are the full cursor keys. Easier to move around on the
desk, which I do a lot.

Keyboards are a product where preferences diverge a lot and are very 
personal. Fortunately there is lots of choice in the market currently.

/ralph

Re: what keyboard do you use?

[Timothy M Butterworth]

On Fri, Feb 2, 2024 at 8:42 PM Gremlin 
wrote:

> On 2/2/24 20:25, Lee wrote:
> > I bought a Dell desktop in 2019 and the keyboard just died :(
> >
> > ssh in from another machine & do a 'sudo reboot now' and get an alert
> > about 'Keyboard not found.'  on power up.  The keyboard also doesn't
> > work in another machine so it's really & truly dead.
> >
> > I figure there's a high percentage of keyboard jockeys here so ..
> > which keyboard do you like and why?
>

I have a Nulea RT02 Ergonomic Keyboard. You can get one at Amazon for $45.
I like it alot! The two USB ports on the keyboard are handy.
.


> > I have a Logitech k740 attached to my Windows machine which is ok.
> > Not great but OK.
> > I found a spare Logitech k120 keyboard in the closet; its better than
> > nothing but too thick for regular use.
> > And the old Dell keyboard from the Windows machine - also too thick,
> > the keys are too cramped and lettering has worn off on about 1/4 of
> > the keys (which is why I got the Logitech 740)
> >
> > Thanks
> > Lee
> >
> >
>
> The one I like to use
>
>
>

-- 
⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀
⣾⠁⢠⠒⠀⣿⡁ Debian - The universal operating system
⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋⠀ https://www.debian.org/
⠈⠳⣄⠀⠀

Re: what keyboard do you use?

[Nate Bargmann]

* On 2024 02 Feb 19:26 -0600, Lee wrote:
> I bought a Dell desktop in 2019 and the keyboard just died :(
> 
> ssh in from another machine & do a 'sudo reboot now' and get an alert
> about 'Keyboard not found.'  on power up.  The keyboard also doesn't
> work in another machine so it's really & truly dead.
> 
> I figure there's a high percentage of keyboard jockeys here so ..
> which keyboard do you like and why?

I have several of the now classic IBM Model M keyboards I procured in
the '90s.  Modern BIOSes don't like them even with a PS/2 to USB
adapter so I gave up on them.  The Lenovo KU-0225 is a good keyboard
with the "standard" extra keys that are useful in some desktops.  It is
full size and quiet.

My main keyboard is a daskeyboard I bought several years ago with the
Cherry key switches  It is thick so you might not like it and it is
loud.  It has the same number of keys as the Lenovo, 104, I think.  This
one was not cheap while the Lenovo was considerably less expensive.

- Nate

-- 
"The optimist proclaims that we live in the best of all
possible worlds.  The pessimist fears this is true."
Web: https://www.n0nb.us
Projects: https://github.com/N0NB
GPG fingerprint: 82D6 4F6B 0E67 CD41 F689 BBA6 FB2C 5130 D55A 8819



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Re: what keyboard do you use?

[ghe2001]

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On Friday, February 2nd, 2024 at 6:25 PM, Lee  wrote:

> I bought a Dell desktop in 2019 and the keyboard just died 
> :(https://www.google.com/search?q=map+of+the+USA+in+1845=active=2=1280=635=isch=u=univ=X=0ahUKEwjQ-9bvs93RAhXJ7YMKHXzWDkIQsAQIGw#safe=active=isch=map+of+the+USA+in+1848=GUh1lSV_dYk9KM%3A
> 
> I figure there's a high percentage of keyboard jockeys here so ..
> which keyboard do you like and why?

Cherry (available at Amazon).  I've used them for a 25 or 30 years, and I've 
never had one fail.  Or even think about it.

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Re: what keyboard do you use?

[Gremlin]

On 2/2/24 20:25, Lee wrote:

I bought a Dell desktop in 2019 and the keyboard just died :(

ssh in from another machine & do a 'sudo reboot now' and get an alert
about 'Keyboard not found.'  on power up.  The keyboard also doesn't
work in another machine so it's really & truly dead.

I figure there's a high percentage of keyboard jockeys here so ..
which keyboard do you like and why?

I have a Logitech k740 attached to my Windows machine which is ok.
Not great but OK.
I found a spare Logitech k120 keyboard in the closet; its better than
nothing but too thick for regular use.
And the old Dell keyboard from the Windows machine - also too thick,
the keys are too cramped and lettering has worn off on about 1/4 of
the keys (which is why I got the Logitech 740)

Thanks
Lee




The one I like to use