RE: [Declude.JunkMail] Should postmaster or abuse accept all e-mail?

2002-12-02 Thread John Tolmachoff
>I don't use my own blacklists, I use the ORDB, spamcop etc.

FWIW, I and others have downgraded the weight of SpamCop do to their method
of listing an IP address which is catching a significant number of legit
e-mails.

John Tolmachoff MCSE, CSSA
IT Manager, Network Engineer
RelianceSoft, Inc.
Fullerton, CA  92835
www.reliancesoft.com



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RE: [Declude.JunkMail] Should postmaster or abuse accept all e-mail?

2002-11-30 Thread Phillip B. Holmes
Thanks Todd,

I understand your point. I don't use my own blacklists, I use the ORDB,
spamcop etc. I don't use the filters, just the organizations that
actually investigate the mailers by running diagnostics for open relays,
etc.,. You have to really screw up to not get mail through to us. I
appreciate your opinion.

Regards,

Phillip B. Holmes
Media Resolutions Inc.
Macromedia Alliance Partner
http://www.mediares.com
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
1-888-395-4678 ext. 101
972-889-0201 ext. 101

/* Please send support requests to
[EMAIL PROTECTED] */

Failure is not falling down but refusing to get up.--- Chinese Proverb





-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of Todd Ryan
Sent: Saturday, November 30, 2002 7:48 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [Declude.JunkMail] Should postmaster or abuse accept all
e-mail?


Phillip,

I see one flaw in this logic.  It seems that you are assuming that all
mail admins are "good mail admins" as you say in the last paragraph. In
my experience, not very many of them are.  And probably all the good
ones are on this list!  ;-)

The typical scenerio I've seen is that for one reason or another, an ISP
will get blacklisted.  Sometimes because they host multiple smaller
companies and one did something stupid and got blacklisted. Sometimes
because they don't know what they're doing and screw up their config in
one way or another and don't realize it (schools, government, etc).

Either way, if one of their servers has reached our "bounce" threshhold,
I bounce a message back to the user INVITING them to forward it to my
postmaster@ account so we can review it.  postmaster@ and abuse@ have
gotten no more than 5 spam messages in 2 years (and I'm not sure why) so
I gladly whitelist them.  Letting the occasional end user respond to
abuse@ or postmaster@ inquiring into why their mail was blocked is not a
burden on resources.

OK...here's my philosophy which is quite different than yours:  I am
offering a service to people.  Not ISPs and mail admins.  If someone
gets one of my bounce messages due to the filters I've built, I feel
that it is my job to let them know it was not delivered and to give them
a way to have it investigated.  This works very well.  On the rare
occasion that I bounced a message from a real person, I was able to
either alert the "good" mail admin and they resolved the problem or in
the case where of a "bad" mail admin that had no abuse@ or postmaster@,
I whitelisted that particular sender address so they could get their
mail through.  And in one or two cases, it made me aware of flaws in my
filters.

We can argue all day long about how things "should" be...how all mail
administrators "should" monitor their logs, "should" check their
configurations, "should" be aware of any blacklists they're on,etc. But
we all know that most (and mostly bigger) ISPs don't do this or can't do
this.  And since we get paid by the users of our services, it only takes
a few AOL users to call users on our system and say "Hey...all the mail
I'm sending you bounces...you should change ISPs" to give your business
a bad name.  It's all about keeping the users happy.

I know we look at our businesses from different points of view so I
won't discuss it further.  Just thought this might help you understand
why a lot of people on this list disagree with your approach.

Thanks for listening.

--Todd.





- Original Message -----
From: "Phillip B. Holmes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, November 28, 2002 2:17 PM
Subject: RE: [Declude.JunkMail] Should postmaster or abuse accept all
e-mail?


> John,
>
> Why don't you keep this on a professional level and keep your snide 
> little comments to yourself?
>
> I manage 4 ISP's John with revenues over 5 million a year. Declude
is a
> godsend to us as some over our clients have been receiving over 200
spam
> emails a day to a single POP account. If you are blacklisted, you
are
> there for a reason. Either your server allows relay or you are not
RFC
> compliant. Either way, in 99% of the cases, the mail server 
> implementation is broken and should not be running in production.
Trust
> me when I say that they find out VERY quickly that they can't send
mail
> to half the world when they are violating spam AUPs. It is not my 
> responsibility to baby sit those people or tell them how to run
their
> mail servers. They will have to learn the hard way that spam is 
> unacceptable and won't be tolerated on most networks.
>
> Spam is a huge issue that costs ISPs millions in man-hours and 
> bandwidth.  We do not tolerate blacklisted SMTP servers, period. And 
> yes... I would love to have the revenues of AOL, RoadRunner, SBC
o

Re: [Declude.JunkMail] Should postmaster or abuse accept all e-mail?

2002-11-30 Thread Todd Ryan
Phillip,

I see one flaw in this logic.  It seems that you are assuming that all
mail admins are "good mail admins" as you say in the last paragraph.
In my experience, not very many of them are.  And probably all the
good ones are on this list!  ;-)

The typical scenerio I've seen is that for one reason or another, an
ISP will get blacklisted.  Sometimes because they host multiple
smaller companies and one did something stupid and got blacklisted.
Sometimes because they don't know what they're doing and screw up
their config in one way or another and don't realize it (schools,
government, etc).

Either way, if one of their servers has reached our "bounce"
threshhold, I bounce a message back to the user INVITING them to
forward it to my postmaster@ account so we can review it.  postmaster@
and abuse@ have gotten no more than 5 spam messages in 2 years (and
I'm not sure why) so I gladly whitelist them.  Letting the occasional
end user respond to abuse@ or postmaster@ inquiring into why their
mail was blocked is not a burden on resources.

OK...here's my philosophy which is quite different than yours:  I am
offering a service to people.  Not ISPs and mail admins.  If someone
gets one of my bounce messages due to the filters I've built, I feel
that it is my job to let them know it was not delivered and to give
them a way to have it investigated.  This works very well.  On the
rare occasion that I bounced a message from a real person, I was able
to either alert the "good" mail admin and they resolved the problem or
in the case where of a "bad" mail admin that had no abuse@ or
postmaster@, I whitelisted that particular sender address so they
could get their mail through.  And in one or two cases, it made me
aware of flaws in my filters.

We can argue all day long about how things "should" be...how all mail
administrators "should" monitor their logs, "should" check their
configurations, "should" be aware of any blacklists they're on,etc.
But we all know that most (and mostly bigger) ISPs don't do this or
can't do this.  And since we get paid by the users of our services, it
only takes a few AOL users to call users on our system and say
"Hey...all the mail I'm sending you bounces...you should change ISPs"
to give your business a bad name.  It's all about keeping the users
happy.

I know we look at our businesses from different points of view so I
won't discuss it further.  Just thought this might help you understand
why a lot of people on this list disagree with your approach.

Thanks for listening.

--Todd.





- Original Message -----
From: "Phillip B. Holmes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, November 28, 2002 2:17 PM
Subject: RE: [Declude.JunkMail] Should postmaster or abuse accept all
e-mail?


> John,
>
> Why don't you keep this on a professional level and keep your snide
> little comments to yourself?
>
> I manage 4 ISP's John with revenues over 5 million a year. Declude
is a
> godsend to us as some over our clients have been receiving over 200
spam
> emails a day to a single POP account. If you are blacklisted, you
are
> there for a reason. Either your server allows relay or you are not
RFC
> compliant. Either way, in 99% of the cases, the mail server
> implementation is broken and should not be running in production.
Trust
> me when I say that they find out VERY quickly that they can't send
mail
> to half the world when they are violating spam AUPs. It is not my
> responsibility to baby sit those people or tell them how to run
their
> mail servers. They will have to learn the hard way that spam is
> unacceptable and won't be tolerated on most networks.
>
> Spam is a huge issue that costs ISPs millions in man-hours and
> bandwidth.  We do not tolerate blacklisted SMTP servers, period.
> And yes... I would love to have the revenues of AOL, RoadRunner, SBC
or
> PacBell. They all delete blacklisted mail and report the issue back
to
> the sending ISPs via logging (which is totally acceptable). A good
email
> admin would simply need to investigate his logs to find out why
their
> mail is rejected around half the planet. If more ISPs took a hard
line
> on spam, there would not be the huge problem that it is today.
>
> Regards,
>
> Phillip B. Holmes
> Media Resolutions Inc.
> Macromedia Alliance Partner
>  <http://www.mediares.com> http://www.mediares.com
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> 1-888-395-4678 ext. 101
> 972-889-0201 ext. 101
>
> /* Please send support requests to
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] */
>
> Failure is not falling down but refusing to get up.--- Chinese
Proverb
>
>
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTEC

RE: [Declude.JunkMail] Should postmaster or abuse accept all e-mail?

2002-11-28 Thread Tom


> ORDB is not going to put a server on the blacklist unless they have
> tested successfully for an open relay.

BTW: I was only making a comment about the abuse account and
just stating that it could benefit some poor soul that
was hacked or had an open relay without knowing it. But,
this is entirely up to the SysOp.

In any-case depending on what service you use it is possible they 
may add some one to their blacklist without investigating it and 
without allowing the offender to respond.  What it comes down to 
is we should consider the fact that no one is perfect and we 
should not react on a message that one of these companies decided
to claim it as spam.  I have seem allot of legitimate mailings 
listed with some of these companies and because of this I can 
not trust them.  However, because of Declude I can take advantage
of different tests to validate their findings.  I have created my 
own blacklist as some of you might already know, but not every one
agrees with my list, though it has been very similar to Spamcop's 
findings.  Because of this I strongly suggest using weight values 
to declare spam or junk mail.

My post is not meant to be an argument and/or agreement, just
another opinion for those reading it to consider.

PS: Happy Thanks Giving!

Best Regards,
Tom
Image`fx





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Re: [Declude.JunkMail] Should postmaster or abuse accept all e-mail?

2002-11-28 Thread Darin T. Cox
Title: Message



I would argue that we're not being professional if 
we respond hastily to another, regardless of what our perceptions of 
another's comments are.  Professionalism is not just the avoidance of 
insults, slights, slander, etc., but the decision to not react to another's 
perceived insults, slights, slander, etc. in a way that could be perceived as 
argumentative, insulting, etc.  Not to say that I haven't done it myself, 
but this has been a very clean, well-meaning, generally humble, and helpful 
group and I would hate to see us get too sidetracked by emotions.
 
Enough on that...Happy Thanksgiving all!!!
 
To comment on the issue at hand, I have to say that regardless 
of the status of a particular network's listing on blacklists, it is 
our PRIMARY responsibility as mail system administrators or IT 
infrastructure management to ensure that ALL legitimate email makes it to it's 
intended destination.  Businesses rely on our keeping them connected in a 
faster and faster moving economy.  Timely and accurate delivery of their 
correspondence is a MUST.
 
SECONDARILY to that, though still mightily important, we 
should filter out objectionable and/or wasteful UCE/UBE.  I think most of 
us agree that Declude is a wonderful product with the weighting system to help 
us achieve that goal.
 
From what I heard over the few months I've been on the list, 
Declude coupled with Message Sniffer do an amazing job of identifying UBE/UCE 
without interfering with non-UBE/UCE mail.  I look forward to implementing 
Message Sniffer on our systems after the first of the year.
 
For what it's worth, we've decided to never delete or hold 
emails for our customers, and instead prepend the message subject with a [SPAM] 
token for our users to use as they see fit.  Most of our users add a simple 
rule to their email client to route these messages into a separate folder.  
That way they have the messages in case a critical communication they needed was 
identified as spam, but don't have to deal with a glut of probable spam in their 
inboxes.
 
Until we have a new mail protocol that enforces validation 
rules which make UBE/UCE impractical or impossible, I think that's the best we 
will be able to do.  Identifying spam is good, but stopping it 
altogether at the protocol level should be the ultimate goal.  Any 
other response has little chance of success at dealing with the impact on 
both individuals AND networks.  There will always be individuals or 
organizations that will take advantage of any loophole they can find to send out 
their cheap and flagrant marketing materials.
 
Just my four cents...two cents for each 
issue...
 
Darin.
 
- Original Message - 

  From: 
  Phillip B. 
  Holmes 
  To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  
  Sent: Thursday, November 28, 2002 2:17 
  PM
  Subject: RE: [Declude.JunkMail] Should 
  postmaster or abuse accept all e-mail?
  
  John,Why don't you 
  keep this on a professional level and keep your snide little comments to 
  yourself?I manage 4 ISP's John with revenues over 5 million a year. 
  Declude is a godsend to us as some over our clients have been receiving over 
  200 spam emails a day to a single POP account. If you are blacklisted, you are 
  there for a reason. Either your server allows relay or you are not RFC 
  compliant. Either way, in 99% of the cases, the mail server 
  implementation is broken and should not be running in 
  production. Trust me when I say that they find out VERY quickly 
  that they can't send mail to half the world when they are violating spam AUPs. 
  It is not my responsibility to baby sit those people or tell them how to run 
  their mail servers. They will have to learn the hard way that spam is 
  unacceptable and won't be tolerated on most networks.Spam is a huge 
  issue that costs ISPs millions in man-hours and bandwidth.  We do not 
  tolerate blacklisted SMTP servers, period.And yes... I would love 
  to have the revenues of AOL, RoadRunner, SBC or PacBell. They all 
  delete blacklisted mail and report the issue back to the sending ISPs 
  via logging (which is totally acceptable). A good email admin would 
  simply need to investigate his logs to find out why their mail is rejected 
  around half the planet. If more ISPs took a hard line on spam, there would not 
  be the huge problem that it is today.Regards,Phillip B. 
  HolmesMedia Resolutions Inc.Macromedia Alliance Partnerhttp://www.mediares.com[EMAIL PROTECTED]1-888-395-4678 ext. 101972-889-0201 
  ext. 101/* Please send support requests to[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  */Failure is not falling down but refusing to get up.--- Chinese 
  Proverb-Original Message-From: 
  [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] 
  On Behalf Of John TolmachoffSent: Thursday, November 28, 2002 12:43 
  PMTo: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: RE: [Declude.JunkMail] 
  Should postmaster or abuse accept all e-mail?>

RE: [Declude.JunkMail] Should postmaster or abuse accept all e-mail?

2002-11-28 Thread Phillip B. Holmes
Tom,

ORDB is not going to put a server on the blacklist unless they have
tested successfully for an open relay.

Phil





-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of Thomas Juliano
Sent: Thursday, November 28, 2002 3:45 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: RE: [Declude.JunkMail] Should postmaster or abuse accept all
e-mail?


>If you are blacklisted, you are there for a reason.
>Either your server allows relay or you are not RFC
>compliant. Either way, in 99% of the cases, the mail 
>server implementation is broken and should not be 
>running in production. 

While that may be true, you must be aware that headers
are forged and with that in mind you have to be careful
when you blacklist someone.  I would suggest you leave
abuse open and allow then to reply to that account.
However, it is up to you.  Some times others deserve
a second chance as much as I hate spam, I have to be
somewhat considerate.

Regards,
Tom
Image`fx


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RE: [Declude.JunkMail] Should postmaster or abuse accept all e-mail?

2002-11-28 Thread Thomas Juliano
>If you are blacklisted, you are there for a reason. 
>Either your server allows relay or you are not RFC
>compliant. Either way, in 99% of the cases, the mail 
>server implementation is broken and should not be 
>running in production. 

While that may be true, you must be aware that headers
are forged and with that in mind you have to be careful
when you blacklist someone.  I would suggest you leave
abuse open and allow then to reply to that account.
However, it is up to you.  Some times others deserve
a second chance as much as I hate spam, I have to be
somewhat considerate.

Regards,
Tom
Image`fx


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RE: [Declude.JunkMail] Should postmaster or abuse accept all e-mail?

2002-11-28 Thread Phillip B. Holmes
Title: Message



John,Why don't you keep 
this on a professional level and keep your snide little comments to 
yourself?I manage 4 ISP's John with revenues over 5 million a year. 
Declude is a godsend to us as some over our clients have been receiving over 200 
spam emails a day to a single POP account. If you are blacklisted, you are there 
for a reason. Either your server allows relay or you are not RFC compliant. 
Either way, in 99% of the cases, the mail server implementation is 
broken and should not be running in production. Trust me when 
I say that they find out VERY quickly that they can't send mail to half the 
world when they are violating spam AUPs. It is not my responsibility to baby sit 
those people or tell them how to run their mail servers. They will have to learn 
the hard way that spam is unacceptable and won't be tolerated on most 
networks.Spam is a huge issue that costs ISPs millions in man-hours and 
bandwidth.  We do not tolerate blacklisted SMTP servers, period.And 
yes... I would love to have the revenues of AOL, RoadRunner, SBC or 
PacBell. They all delete blacklisted mail and report the issue back to 
the sending ISPs via logging (which is totally acceptable). A good email 
admin would simply need to investigate his logs to find out why their mail is 
rejected around half the planet. If more ISPs took a hard line on spam, there 
would not be the huge problem that it is today.Regards,Phillip 
B. HolmesMedia Resolutions Inc.Macromedia Alliance Partnerhttp://www.mediares.com[EMAIL PROTECTED]1-888-395-4678 ext. 101972-889-0201 
ext. 101/* Please send support requests to[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
*/Failure is not falling down but refusing to get up.--- Chinese 
Proverb-Original Message-From: 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] 
On Behalf Of John TolmachoffSent: Thursday, November 28, 2002 12:43 
PMTo: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: RE: [Declude.JunkMail] Should 
postmaster or abuse accept all e-mail?>If you have earned a place 
on the blacklists, you wont be sending mailto my networks.Oh wait, I 
get it, he wants to be AOL.John Tolmachoff MCSE, CSSAIT Manager, 
Network EngineerRelianceSoft, Inc.Fullerton, CA  
92835www.reliancesoft.com---[This E-mail was scanned for 
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RE: [Declude.JunkMail] Should postmaster or abuse accept all e-mail?

2002-11-28 Thread John Tolmachoff
>If you have earned a place on the blacklists, you wont be sending mail
to my networks.

Oh wait, I get it, he wants to be AOL.

John Tolmachoff MCSE, CSSA
IT Manager, Network Engineer
RelianceSoft, Inc.
Fullerton, CA  92835
www.reliancesoft.com



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RE: [Declude.JunkMail] Should postmaster or abuse accept all e-mail?

2002-11-28 Thread Phillip B. Holmes
John..

I commented on blacklists only.. i.e. spamcop, open relay db, etc... NOT
badheaders, revdns etc.
I do not kill email based on REVDNS or badheaders.. I hold mail based on
weight 20 (based on those criteria).

Bottom line:
If you have earned a place on the blacklists, you wont be sending mail
to my networks.

Regards,

Phillip B. Holmes
Media Resolutions Inc.
Macromedia Alliance Partner
http://www.mediares.com
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
1-888-395-4678 ext. 101
972-889-0201 ext. 101

/* Please send support requests to
[EMAIL PROTECTED] */

Failure is not falling down but refusing to get up.--- Chinese Proverb



-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of John Tolmachoff
Sent: Thursday, November 28, 2002 11:44 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: RE: [Declude.JunkMail] Should postmaster or abuse accept all
e-mail?


>Ah. Well, there it is.
>My opinion still stands. If clients are on the blacklists, there is no 
>point in receiving mail from them AT ALL. Screw em till they remove 
>themselves... Just my opinion.

I am sorry you feel that way.

What about the new mail admin at a company taking over a g*d awfull mess
left by the last one and is trying to contact of mail admins to help
clear things up?

Or what about the mail admin that has to change to a new IP and finds
that IP address listed on many spam databases until he can work through
them and get it cleaned up?

What about the company that sets up a new web server, but the programmer
has an error in the code that ends up allowing some one to relay, or
creates messages in a way that they fail SPAMHEADERS, BADHEADERS,
BASE64, REVDNS and such?

What about the mail admin that made a mistake and set the relay settings
wrong allowing a spammer in? Or what about the user with a password so
simple whereby a spammer finds it and starts sending out large amounts
of spam via that user, causing the server to be blacklisted?

I was face with the first scenario about 15 months ago. Fortunately, I
was able to contact a "postmaster" at AOL who was very helpful and
helped to clean up the mess rather quickly. If he had your opinion, how
much longer would it have taken for me to figure out what was wrong and
how to fix it?

We are talking about allowing mail to two accounts as required by RFC,
postmaster and abuse. That way, no matter what happens, at least there
will be a way to communicate.

You are taking an awfull hard stance on an issue that does not really
need it.

Reminds me of a infamaus quote, "Is this the hill you want to die on?"

John Tolmachoff MCSE, CSSA
IT Manager, Network Engineer
RelianceSoft, Inc.
Fullerton, CA  92835
www.reliancesoft.com


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RE: [Declude.JunkMail] Should postmaster or abuse accept all e-mail?

2002-11-28 Thread Michael
John - Great quote!

John has provided great examples why we give these two items super low
weight values.

Michael Jaworski
Puget Sound Network, Inc.
Seattle, WA
http://www.psni.com

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of John Tolmachoff
Sent: Thursday, November 28, 2002 9:44 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: RE: [Declude.JunkMail] Should postmaster or abuse accept all
e-mail?


>Ah. Well, there it is.
>My opinion still stands. If clients are on the blacklists, there is no
>point in receiving mail from them AT ALL.
>Screw em till they remove themselves... Just my opinion.

I am sorry you feel that way.

What about the new mail admin at a company taking over a g*d awfull mess
left by the last one and is trying to contact of mail admins to help clear
things up?

Or what about the mail admin that has to change to a new IP and finds that
IP address listed on many spam databases until he can work through them and
get it cleaned up?

What about the company that sets up a new web server, but the programmer has
an error in the code that ends up allowing some one to relay, or creates
messages in a way that they fail SPAMHEADERS, BADHEADERS, BASE64, REVDNS and
such?

What about the mail admin that made a mistake and set the relay settings
wrong allowing a spammer in? Or what about the user with a password so
simple whereby a spammer finds it and starts sending out large amounts of
spam via that user, causing the server to be blacklisted?

I was face with the first scenario about 15 months ago. Fortunately, I was
able to contact a "postmaster" at AOL who was very helpful and helped to
clean up the mess rather quickly. If he had your opinion, how much longer
would it have taken for me to figure out what was wrong and how to fix it?

We are talking about allowing mail to two accounts as required by RFC,
postmaster and abuse. That way, no matter what happens, at least there will
be a way to communicate.

You are taking an awfull hard stance on an issue that does not really need
it.

Reminds me of a infamaus quote, "Is this the hill you want to die on?"

John Tolmachoff MCSE, CSSA
IT Manager, Network Engineer
RelianceSoft, Inc.
Fullerton, CA  92835
www.reliancesoft.com


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RE: [Declude.JunkMail] Should postmaster or abuse accept all e-mail?

2002-11-28 Thread John Tolmachoff
>Ah. Well, there it is.
>My opinion still stands. If clients are on the blacklists, there is no
>point in receiving mail from them AT ALL.
>Screw em till they remove themselves... Just my opinion.

I am sorry you feel that way.

What about the new mail admin at a company taking over a g*d awfull mess
left by the last one and is trying to contact of mail admins to help clear
things up?

Or what about the mail admin that has to change to a new IP and finds that
IP address listed on many spam databases until he can work through them and
get it cleaned up?

What about the company that sets up a new web server, but the programmer has
an error in the code that ends up allowing some one to relay, or creates
messages in a way that they fail SPAMHEADERS, BADHEADERS, BASE64, REVDNS and
such?

What about the mail admin that made a mistake and set the relay settings
wrong allowing a spammer in? Or what about the user with a password so
simple whereby a spammer finds it and starts sending out large amounts of
spam via that user, causing the server to be blacklisted?

I was face with the first scenario about 15 months ago. Fortunately, I was
able to contact a "postmaster" at AOL who was very helpful and helped to
clean up the mess rather quickly. If he had your opinion, how much longer
would it have taken for me to figure out what was wrong and how to fix it?

We are talking about allowing mail to two accounts as required by RFC,
postmaster and abuse. That way, no matter what happens, at least there will
be a way to communicate.

You are taking an awfull hard stance on an issue that does not really need
it.

Reminds me of a infamaus quote, "Is this the hill you want to die on?"

John Tolmachoff MCSE, CSSA
IT Manager, Network Engineer
RelianceSoft, Inc.
Fullerton, CA  92835
www.reliancesoft.com


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RE: [Declude.JunkMail] Should postmaster or abuse accept all e-mail?

2002-11-28 Thread Phillip B. Holmes
Ah. Well, there it is.
My opinion still stands. If clients are on the blacklists, there is no
point in receiving mail from them AT ALL.
Screw em till they remove themselves... Just my opinion.

Regards,

Phillip B. Holmes
Media Resolutions Inc.
Macromedia Alliance Partner
http://www.mediares.com
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
1-888-395-4678 ext. 101
972-889-0201 ext. 101

/* Please send support requests to
[EMAIL PROTECTED] */

Failure is not falling down but refusing to get up.--- Chinese Proverb



-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of John Tolmachoff
Sent: Wednesday, November 27, 2002 3:13 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: RE: [Declude.JunkMail] Should postmaster or abuse accept all
e-mail?


>It has been my findings that most spam that really needs to be deleted
comes from >servers that have neither a postmaster@ or abuse@.
Personally, I feel its a waste of >resources to try and bounce it back
to those addresses. If they have no A / MX >record and are on a
blacklists, they need to be completely ignored :).

Phillip, what they are talking about is receiving messages locally to
the local abuse and postmaster accounts, not bouncing.

John Tolmachoff MCSE, CSSA
IT Manager, Network Engineer
RelianceSoft, Inc.
Fullerton, CA  92835
www.reliancesoft.com


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BEGIN:VCARD
VERSION:2.1
N:Holmes;Phillip;B.
FN:Phillip B. Holmes ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
ORG:Media Resolutions Inc.;IT
TITLE:Vice-President
TEL;WORK;VOICE:(972) 889-0201
TEL;CELL;VOICE:(214) 537-2772
TEL;WORK;FAX:(972) 889-2355
ADR;WORK;ENCODING=QUOTED-PRINTABLE:;1-888-395-4678;16415 Addison=0D=0ASuite 610;Addison;TX;75001;United States =
of America
LABEL;WORK;ENCODING=QUOTED-PRINTABLE:1-888-395-4678=0D=0A16415 Addison=0D=0ASuite 610=0D=0AAddison, TX 75001=0D=
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URL;WORK:http://www.mediaresolutions.com
EMAIL;PREF;INTERNET:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
REV:20021114T064649Z
END:VCARD



RE: [Declude.JunkMail] Should postmaster or abuse accept all e-mail?

2002-11-27 Thread John Tolmachoff
Scott said:

>You can add "WHITELIST TO [EMAIL PROTECTED]" and "WHITELIST TO 
>[EMAIL PROTECTED]" to the \IMail\Declude\Global.cfg file to whitelist 
>E-mail to those domains (even if you are not running the Pro version, you 
>can whitelist E-mail to postmaster@ and abuse@ accounts).

And Darrell said:

>We actually whitelist the following addresses
>
>WHITELIST TO postmaster@
>WHITELIST TO abuse@
>
>For the mentioned reasons below.

Excellent idea. Thanks.

John Tolmachoff MCSE, CSSA
IT Manager, Network Engineer
RelianceSoft, Inc.
Fullerton, CA  92835
www.reliancesoft.com



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RE: [Declude.JunkMail] Should postmaster or abuse accept all e-mail?

2002-11-27 Thread John Tolmachoff
>It has been my findings that most spam that really needs to be deleted
comes from >servers that have neither a postmaster@ or abuse@. Personally, I
feel its a waste of >resources to try and bounce it back to those addresses.
If they have no A / MX >record and are on a blacklists, they need to be
completely ignored :).

Phillip, what they are talking about is receiving messages locally to the
local abuse and postmaster accounts, not bouncing.

John Tolmachoff MCSE, CSSA
IT Manager, Network Engineer
RelianceSoft, Inc.
Fullerton, CA  92835
www.reliancesoft.com


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RE: [Declude.JunkMail] Should postmaster or abuse accept all e-mail?

2002-11-27 Thread John Shacklett
Title: Message



I think 
that misses the point of this thread: If I'm bouncing [or rejecting outright] 
mail from a host or domain, then they have no appeal recourse unless I can open 
up a safe channel for _SOME_ mail to flow through. 
 
On the 
other hand, I have abuse@mydomains and postmaster@mydomains both whitelisted and 
all I get are SPAM solicitations from hosting providers I wouldn't leave 
Michael Jackson's kids with, much less my domains.
 
-Original Message-From: 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of 
[EMAIL PROTECTED]Sent: Wednesday, 27 November 2002 3:47 
PMTo: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: RE: 
[Declude.JunkMail] Should postmaster or abuse accept all 
e-mail?
 
 
It 
has been my findings that most spam that really needs to be deleted comes from 
servers that have neither a postmaster@ or abuse@. Personally, I feel its a 
waste of resources to try and bounce it back to those addresses. If they have no 
A / MX record and are on a blacklists, they need to be completely ignored 
:).
Respectfully,Phillip B. HolmesMedia Resolutions 
Inc.Macromedia Alliance Partnerhttp://www.mediares.com[EMAIL PROTECTED]1-888-395-4678 
| Option 8 Ext. 101972-889-0201 | Option 8 Ext. 
101/* Please send 
support requests to[EMAIL PROTECTED] */  

-Original Message-From: 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] 
On Behalf Of Darrell L.Sent: Wednesday, November 27, 2002 2:14 
PMTo: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: RE: 
[Declude.JunkMail] Should postmaster or abuse accept all 
e-mail?

Marc,
 
We actually whitelist 
the following addresses
 
WHITELIST 
TO postmaster@
WHITELIST 
TO abuse@
 
For the mentioned 
reasons below.
 
Darrell
 
-Original 
Message-From: 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] 
On Behalf Of Marc 
CatuognoSent: 
Wednesday, November 27, 
2002 3:06 
PMTo: 
[EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: [Declude.JunkMail] Should 
postmaster or abuse accept all e-mail?
 

I've been using the delete action on 
a blacklist test for Junkmail.  I also have a few ip ranges blocked.  
I was thinking that if anyone with any brains figured out that they were blocked 
that maybe they would e-mail postmaster or abuse.  Should I have a separate 
junkmail file for one or both of these address that allows all mail through? 
This way there is an appeal process.  Is there an RFC for 
this?

 

Thanks - 
Marc


RE: [Declude.JunkMail] Should postmaster or abuse accept all e-mail?

2002-11-27 Thread pholmes
Title: Message



 
 
It 
has been my findings that most spam that really needs to be deleted comes from 
servers that have neither a postmaster@ or abuse@. Personally, I feel its a 
waste of resources to try and bounce it back to those addresses. If they have no 
A / MX record and are on a blacklists, they need to be completely ignored 
:).
Respectfully,Phillip B. HolmesMedia Resolutions 
Inc.Macromedia Alliance Partnerhttp://www.mediares.com[EMAIL PROTECTED]1-888-395-4678 
| Option 8 Ext. 101972-889-0201 | Option 8 Ext. 
101/* Please send 
support requests to[EMAIL PROTECTED] */  

-Original Message-From: 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] 
On Behalf Of Darrell L.Sent: Wednesday, November 27, 2002 2:14 
PMTo: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: RE: 
[Declude.JunkMail] Should postmaster or abuse accept all 
e-mail?

Marc,
 
We actually whitelist 
the following addresses
 
WHITELIST 
TO postmaster@
WHITELIST 
TO abuse@
 
For the mentioned 
reasons below.
 
Darrell
 
-Original 
Message-From: 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] 
On Behalf Of Marc 
CatuognoSent: 
Wednesday, November 27, 
2002 3:06 
PMTo: 
[EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: [Declude.JunkMail] Should 
postmaster or abuse accept all e-mail?
 

I've been using the delete action on 
a blacklist test for Junkmail.  I also have a few ip ranges blocked.  
I was thinking that if anyone with any brains figured out that they were blocked 
that maybe they would e-mail postmaster or abuse.  Should I have a separate 
junkmail file for one or both of these address that allows all mail through? 
This way there is an appeal process.  Is there an RFC for 
this?

 

Thanks - 
Marc


RE: [Declude.JunkMail] Should postmaster or abuse accept all e-mail?

2002-11-27 Thread Darrell L.









Marc,

 

We actually whitelist the following
addresses

 

WHITELIST TO postmaster@

WHITELIST TO abuse@

 

For the mentioned reasons below.

 

Darrell

 

-Original Message-
From:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of Marc Catuogno
Sent: Wednesday,
 November 27, 2002 3:06 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: [Declude.JunkMail] Should
postmaster or abuse accept all e-mail?

 



I've been using the delete action on
a blacklist test for Junkmail.  I also have a few ip ranges blocked. 
I was thinking that if anyone with any brains figured out that they were
blocked that maybe they would e-mail postmaster or abuse.  Should I have a
separate junkmail file for one or both of these address that allows all mail
through? This way there is an appeal process.  Is there an RFC for this?





 





Thanks - Marc










[Declude.JunkMail] Should postmaster or abuse accept all e-mail?

2002-11-27 Thread Marc Catuogno



I've been using the 
delete action on a blacklist test for Junkmail.  I also have a few ip 
ranges blocked.  I was thinking that if anyone with any brains figured out 
that they were blocked that maybe they would e-mail postmaster or abuse.  
Should I have a separate junkmail file for one or both of these address that 
allows all mail through? This way there is an appeal process.  Is there an 
RFC for this?
 
Thanks - 
Marc