Re: [Declude.JunkMail] declude not modifying subject line
Kevin, I am very well aware of what byte sequences constitute the end of a line. However, if the problem were this simple it would have been fixed long ago. Contrary to what some have said here, we have seen many instances where IMail likewise appends its headers to the end of the message. The broken line terminators are not necessarily of the same type in a given message. In addition, they are not necessarily adjacent to each other (with leading whitespace or unprintable characters on a line). What may appear obvious to the eye is often not at all what exists behind the scene. You may look at a message and be certain where the headers end and the body begins (the separating blank line). However, that message may not necessarily contain two consecutive EOL sequences of any type anywhere. David Franco-Rocha - Original Message - From: Kevin Bilbee [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: declude.junkmail@declude.com Sent: Wednesday, November 08, 2006 5:45 PM Subject: RE: [Declude.JunkMail] declude not modifying subject line I do not understand why you need to rewrite the message beyond what you already do? Just determine the end of headers properly then rewrite the message with your headers in the proper location. You already rewrite the message when adding headers so why would it take any longer to properly detect the end of headers. If you have two LF sequences next to each other ignoring the CR then you have the end of headers. For example if you have CRLFCRLF OR LFCRLFCR OR LFLF I have never seen a message use CR alone for an end of line. There are two LF bytes in each sequence ignore the CR bytes. Then when writing out the message with the Declude headers include the original byte sequences for each line. And the Declude lines should have the proper CRLF sequences. My two cents! Kevin Bilbee 1. I don't like to keep going in circles on this. If it was as easy as just fix it there would be no issue. Please understand that this is a lot more complex than you may realize, we are considering making the fixing of line terminators as an optional feature to be turned on/off because of a potential performance degradation of rewriting the messages. --- This E-mail came from the Declude.JunkMail mailing list. To unsubscribe, just send an E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED], and type unsubscribe Declude.JunkMail. The archives can be found at http://www.mail-archive.com. --- This E-mail came from the Declude.JunkMail mailing list. To unsubscribe, just send an E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED], and type unsubscribe Declude.JunkMail. The archives can be found at http://www.mail-archive.com.
Re: [Declude.JunkMail] declude not modifying subject line
Well, David. You've known about the problem for a very long time, and from a customer perspective absolutely nothing has been done. No potential fix release date. Nothing other than we're working on it. From your post to the list, it doesn't even sound like we're working on it was true. Pardon my frustration at the continual lack of progress on almost every front, but this post makes it sound like you're just plain too lazy to make an effort to do anything about it. If you need help identify the various scenarios, post samples to the list and we'll help you. There are a lot of bright people on this list who can help you out. Bottom line, figure out what needs to be done, get it done, and we'll stop hounding you on this issue. Darin. - Original Message - From: David Franco-Rocha [ Declude ] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: declude.junkmail@declude.com Sent: Thursday, November 09, 2006 8:32 AM Subject: Re: [Declude.JunkMail] declude not modifying subject line Kevin, I am very well aware of what byte sequences constitute the end of a line. However, if the problem were this simple it would have been fixed long ago. Contrary to what some have said here, we have seen many instances where IMail likewise appends its headers to the end of the message. The broken line terminators are not necessarily of the same type in a given message. In addition, they are not necessarily adjacent to each other (with leading whitespace or unprintable characters on a line). What may appear obvious to the eye is often not at all what exists behind the scene. You may look at a message and be certain where the headers end and the body begins (the separating blank line). However, that message may not necessarily contain two consecutive EOL sequences of any type anywhere. David Franco-Rocha - Original Message - From: Kevin Bilbee [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: declude.junkmail@declude.com Sent: Wednesday, November 08, 2006 5:45 PM Subject: RE: [Declude.JunkMail] declude not modifying subject line I do not understand why you need to rewrite the message beyond what you already do? Just determine the end of headers properly then rewrite the message with your headers in the proper location. You already rewrite the message when adding headers so why would it take any longer to properly detect the end of headers. If you have two LF sequences next to each other ignoring the CR then you have the end of headers. For example if you have CRLFCRLF OR LFCRLFCR OR LFLF I have never seen a message use CR alone for an end of line. There are two LF bytes in each sequence ignore the CR bytes. Then when writing out the message with the Declude headers include the original byte sequences for each line. And the Declude lines should have the proper CRLF sequences. My two cents! Kevin Bilbee 1. I don't like to keep going in circles on this. If it was as easy as just fix it there would be no issue. Please understand that this is a lot more complex than you may realize, we are considering making the fixing of line terminators as an optional feature to be turned on/off because of a potential performance degradation of rewriting the messages. --- This E-mail came from the Declude.JunkMail mailing list. To unsubscribe, just send an E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED], and type unsubscribe Declude.JunkMail. The archives can be found at http://www.mail-archive.com. --- This E-mail came from the Declude.JunkMail mailing list. To unsubscribe, just send an E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED], and type unsubscribe Declude.JunkMail. The archives can be found at http://www.mail-archive.com. --- This E-mail came from the Declude.JunkMail mailing list. To unsubscribe, just send an E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED], and type unsubscribe Declude.JunkMail. The archives can be found at http://www.mail-archive.com.
RE: [Declude.JunkMail] declude not modifying subject line
Unfortunately Andy you are incorrect we have seen numerous instances where IMail likewise has put its headers at the end of the body. David B www.declude.com -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Andy Schmidt Sent: Wednesday, November 08, 2006 4:57 PM To: declude.junkmail@declude.com Subject: RE: [Declude.JunkMail] declude not modifying subject line Hi, As per previous posts I agree that Declude needs to deal with this issue, as neither SmarterMail or Imail have addressed this, just out of curiosity has anyone contacted SmarterMail or Imail and asked them to address this issue, and if so what was their response I never asked them to address it because Imail prepends the Received headers at the top and appends the other headers in the correct spot, as far as I can tell. It's accepting a message, works around the non-standard line feeds and delivers the message. So there's nothing to fix for them, in my opinion. Best Regards Andy Schmidt Phone: +1 201 934-3414 x20 (Business) Fax:+1 201 934-9206 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of David Barker Sent: Wednesday, November 08, 2006 04:37 PM To: declude.junkmail@declude.com Subject: RE: [Declude.JunkMail] declude not modifying subject line 1. I don't like to keep going in circles on this. If it was as easy as just fix it there would be no issue. Please understand that this is a lot more complex than you may realize, we are considering making the fixing of line terminators as an optional feature to be turned on/off because of a potential performance degradation of rewriting the messages. 2. Just so that you know we are a privately funded company and do not have any VC funding. 3. As per previous posts I agree that Declude needs to deal with this issue, as neither SmarterMail or Imail have addressed this, just out of curiosity has anyone contacted SmarterMail or Imail and asked them to address this issue, and if so what was their response ? David B www.declude.com -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Colbeck, Andrew Sent: Wednesday, November 08, 2006 2:03 PM To: declude.junkmail@declude.com Subject: RE: [Declude.JunkMail] declude not modifying subject line Me three! Is it done yet? No? Darn. Frankly, David, if the Declude app is going to have to rewrite the whole message anyway to insert headers, make it an optional *feature* to fix up the line terminators. Then market it as a unique feature; I understand that Venture Capitalists love their startups to have innovative features that differentiate their product in the marketplace. Meanwhile, just fix the Declude app so that inserts the header correctly as befits our reasonable expectations as set by all the other products in the marketplace. Andrew. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Darin Cox Sent: Wednesday, November 08, 2006 10:41 AM To: declude.junkmail@declude.com Subject: Re: [Declude.JunkMail] declude not modifying subject line Agreed. Put the headers where they need to be. Don't worry about fixing the message. Having this additional test could be worthwhile as well, to identify and report on mailers that are broken in this fashion. Darin. - Original Message - From: Andy Schmidt [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: declude.junkmail@declude.com Sent: Wednesday, November 08, 2006 12:03 PM Subject: RE: [Declude.JunkMail] declude not modifying subject line Hi Dave: 1. This is currently being worked on, there are several other things that need to be taken into account when doing this, for example if Declude has to rewrite all me messages in order to correct this problem there will be a hit on performance. We are also looking at some other alternatives. Any suggestions are welcome. Although I know this had been suggested - I personally don't feel that Declude needs (or even SHOULD) rewrite the message. If the message is readable by Imail, Outlook, etc. - then the sender is in luck. If not, then the fact that other software can't read the message will motivate the sender to use RFC compliant formatting. I feel all that's necessary is that Declude's end-of-line parsing should be made intelligent enough so that it DOES detect various CR CR/LF LF LF/CR combinations and treat them as end-of-line, so that it can properly detect the intended last header. This way, Declude can: A) append it's own header at the proper location (not append it below the message body.) B) determining where the message content starts (so that the content can be properly scanned for Viruses) I get the feeling this issue of end-of-line detection is being made overly complicated. Declude is not a message-fixer-upper. I have enough problems with people using CISCO SMTP FIXUP that breaks everything. Declude's job
RE: [Declude.JunkMail] declude not modifying subject line
Darin, I will not commit to a date of having a fix and then not reach that date. I understand your frustration with this issue. The truth is we are currently working on it, I think that your statement of being plain lazy to make an effort is uncalled for. I have posted we are open to suggestions, again if you feel like you need to vent your frustration feel free to call me directly 978-499-2933 xt 7007 David B www.declude.com -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Darin Cox Sent: Thursday, November 09, 2006 8:56 AM To: declude.junkmail@declude.com Subject: Re: [Declude.JunkMail] declude not modifying subject line Well, David. You've known about the problem for a very long time, and from a customer perspective absolutely nothing has been done. No potential fix release date. Nothing other than we're working on it. From your post to the list, it doesn't even sound like we're working on it was true. Pardon my frustration at the continual lack of progress on almost every front, but this post makes it sound like you're just plain too lazy to make an effort to do anything about it. If you need help identify the various scenarios, post samples to the list and we'll help you. There are a lot of bright people on this list who can help you out. Bottom line, figure out what needs to be done, get it done, and we'll stop hounding you on this issue. Darin. - Original Message - From: David Franco-Rocha [ Declude ] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: declude.junkmail@declude.com Sent: Thursday, November 09, 2006 8:32 AM Subject: Re: [Declude.JunkMail] declude not modifying subject line Kevin, I am very well aware of what byte sequences constitute the end of a line. However, if the problem were this simple it would have been fixed long ago. Contrary to what some have said here, we have seen many instances where IMail likewise appends its headers to the end of the message. The broken line terminators are not necessarily of the same type in a given message. In addition, they are not necessarily adjacent to each other (with leading whitespace or unprintable characters on a line). What may appear obvious to the eye is often not at all what exists behind the scene. You may look at a message and be certain where the headers end and the body begins (the separating blank line). However, that message may not necessarily contain two consecutive EOL sequences of any type anywhere. David Franco-Rocha - Original Message - From: Kevin Bilbee [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: declude.junkmail@declude.com Sent: Wednesday, November 08, 2006 5:45 PM Subject: RE: [Declude.JunkMail] declude not modifying subject line I do not understand why you need to rewrite the message beyond what you already do? Just determine the end of headers properly then rewrite the message with your headers in the proper location. You already rewrite the message when adding headers so why would it take any longer to properly detect the end of headers. If you have two LF sequences next to each other ignoring the CR then you have the end of headers. For example if you have CRLFCRLF OR LFCRLFCR OR LFLF I have never seen a message use CR alone for an end of line. There are two LF bytes in each sequence ignore the CR bytes. Then when writing out the message with the Declude headers include the original byte sequences for each line. And the Declude lines should have the proper CRLF sequences. My two cents! Kevin Bilbee 1. I don't like to keep going in circles on this. If it was as easy as just fix it there would be no issue. Please understand that this is a lot more complex than you may realize, we are considering making the fixing of line terminators as an optional feature to be turned on/off because of a potential performance degradation of rewriting the messages. --- This E-mail came from the Declude.JunkMail mailing list. To unsubscribe, just send an E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED], and type unsubscribe Declude.JunkMail. The archives can be found at http://www.mail-archive.com. --- This E-mail came from the Declude.JunkMail mailing list. To unsubscribe, just send an E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED], and type unsubscribe Declude.JunkMail. The archives can be found at http://www.mail-archive.com. --- This E-mail came from the Declude.JunkMail mailing list. To unsubscribe, just send an E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED], and type unsubscribe Declude.JunkMail. The archives can be found at http://www.mail-archive.com. --- This E-mail came from the Declude.JunkMail mailing list. To unsubscribe, just send an E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED], and type unsubscribe Declude.JunkMail. The archives can be found at http://www.mail-archive.com.
Re: [Declude.JunkMail] declude not modifying subject line
We're not asking Declude to fix IMail's problem, just do some intelligent parsing and put the headers Declude adds with the rest of the header. We'll work on Ipswitch to fix their issues. Darin. - Original Message - From: David Barker [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: declude.junkmail@declude.com Sent: Thursday, November 09, 2006 8:58 AM Subject: RE: [Declude.JunkMail] declude not modifying subject line Unfortunately Andy you are incorrect we have seen numerous instances where IMail likewise has put its headers at the end of the body. David B www.declude.com -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Andy Schmidt Sent: Wednesday, November 08, 2006 4:57 PM To: declude.junkmail@declude.com Subject: RE: [Declude.JunkMail] declude not modifying subject line Hi, As per previous posts I agree that Declude needs to deal with this issue, as neither SmarterMail or Imail have addressed this, just out of curiosity has anyone contacted SmarterMail or Imail and asked them to address this issue, and if so what was their response I never asked them to address it because Imail prepends the Received headers at the top and appends the other headers in the correct spot, as far as I can tell. It's accepting a message, works around the non-standard line feeds and delivers the message. So there's nothing to fix for them, in my opinion. Best Regards Andy Schmidt Phone: +1 201 934-3414 x20 (Business) Fax:+1 201 934-9206 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of David Barker Sent: Wednesday, November 08, 2006 04:37 PM To: declude.junkmail@declude.com Subject: RE: [Declude.JunkMail] declude not modifying subject line 1. I don't like to keep going in circles on this. If it was as easy as just fix it there would be no issue. Please understand that this is a lot more complex than you may realize, we are considering making the fixing of line terminators as an optional feature to be turned on/off because of a potential performance degradation of rewriting the messages. 2. Just so that you know we are a privately funded company and do not have any VC funding. 3. As per previous posts I agree that Declude needs to deal with this issue, as neither SmarterMail or Imail have addressed this, just out of curiosity has anyone contacted SmarterMail or Imail and asked them to address this issue, and if so what was their response ? David B www.declude.com -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Colbeck, Andrew Sent: Wednesday, November 08, 2006 2:03 PM To: declude.junkmail@declude.com Subject: RE: [Declude.JunkMail] declude not modifying subject line Me three! Is it done yet? No? Darn. Frankly, David, if the Declude app is going to have to rewrite the whole message anyway to insert headers, make it an optional *feature* to fix up the line terminators. Then market it as a unique feature; I understand that Venture Capitalists love their startups to have innovative features that differentiate their product in the marketplace. Meanwhile, just fix the Declude app so that inserts the header correctly as befits our reasonable expectations as set by all the other products in the marketplace. Andrew. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Darin Cox Sent: Wednesday, November 08, 2006 10:41 AM To: declude.junkmail@declude.com Subject: Re: [Declude.JunkMail] declude not modifying subject line Agreed. Put the headers where they need to be. Don't worry about fixing the message. Having this additional test could be worthwhile as well, to identify and report on mailers that are broken in this fashion. Darin. - Original Message - From: Andy Schmidt [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: declude.junkmail@declude.com Sent: Wednesday, November 08, 2006 12:03 PM Subject: RE: [Declude.JunkMail] declude not modifying subject line Hi Dave: 1. This is currently being worked on, there are several other things that need to be taken into account when doing this, for example if Declude has to rewrite all me messages in order to correct this problem there will be a hit on performance. We are also looking at some other alternatives. Any suggestions are welcome. Although I know this had been suggested - I personally don't feel that Declude needs (or even SHOULD) rewrite the message. If the message is readable by Imail, Outlook, etc. - then the sender is in luck. If not, then the fact that other software can't read the message will motivate the sender to use RFC compliant formatting. I feel all that's necessary is that Declude's end-of-line parsing should be made intelligent enough so that it DOES detect various CR CR/LF LF LF/CR combinations and treat them as end-of-line, so that it can properly detect the intended last header. This way, Declude can: A) append it's own header at the proper location
Re: [Declude.JunkMail] declude not modifying subject line
David, I'm sorry you feel that way, but I will not apologize for my post. Frankly I've had it with posts from Declude that seem to indicate no interest in solving the problem, as David F-R's post seemed. I've tried to be as nice as I could be through these past two years, but I've had enough of put-offs and lack of progress towards fixing issues over the past two years. Instead of a put-off, how about making some statements about what is or will be done? Refusal to give a date for anything just indicates poor project management practices. Our main business is software development, so I completely understand the issues of meeting dates, but in our business it's not acceptable to not give dates. We must use good project estimation and management skills to assess what needs to be done to perform a task, and balance the triangle of due date, resources, and task requirements to get the task done. That said extenuating circumstances can occur, requiring a due date to be moved. Communicating early and often with customers alleviates any concerns that customers might have with due date changes, but again, not giving a date is simply not acceptable. Giving a reasonable outside estimate, and meeting the date earlier is, however. Darin. - Original Message - From: David Barker [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: declude.junkmail@declude.com Sent: Thursday, November 09, 2006 9:06 AM Subject: RE: [Declude.JunkMail] declude not modifying subject line Darin, I will not commit to a date of having a fix and then not reach that date. I understand your frustration with this issue. The truth is we are currently working on it, I think that your statement of being plain lazy to make an effort is uncalled for. I have posted we are open to suggestions, again if you feel like you need to vent your frustration feel free to call me directly 978-499-2933 xt 7007 David B www.declude.com -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Darin Cox Sent: Thursday, November 09, 2006 8:56 AM To: declude.junkmail@declude.com Subject: Re: [Declude.JunkMail] declude not modifying subject line Well, David. You've known about the problem for a very long time, and from a customer perspective absolutely nothing has been done. No potential fix release date. Nothing other than we're working on it. From your post to the list, it doesn't even sound like we're working on it was true. Pardon my frustration at the continual lack of progress on almost every front, but this post makes it sound like you're just plain too lazy to make an effort to do anything about it. If you need help identify the various scenarios, post samples to the list and we'll help you. There are a lot of bright people on this list who can help you out. Bottom line, figure out what needs to be done, get it done, and we'll stop hounding you on this issue. Darin. - Original Message - From: David Franco-Rocha [ Declude ] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: declude.junkmail@declude.com Sent: Thursday, November 09, 2006 8:32 AM Subject: Re: [Declude.JunkMail] declude not modifying subject line Kevin, I am very well aware of what byte sequences constitute the end of a line. However, if the problem were this simple it would have been fixed long ago. Contrary to what some have said here, we have seen many instances where IMail likewise appends its headers to the end of the message. The broken line terminators are not necessarily of the same type in a given message. In addition, they are not necessarily adjacent to each other (with leading whitespace or unprintable characters on a line). What may appear obvious to the eye is often not at all what exists behind the scene. You may look at a message and be certain where the headers end and the body begins (the separating blank line). However, that message may not necessarily contain two consecutive EOL sequences of any type anywhere. David Franco-Rocha - Original Message - From: Kevin Bilbee [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: declude.junkmail@declude.com Sent: Wednesday, November 08, 2006 5:45 PM Subject: RE: [Declude.JunkMail] declude not modifying subject line I do not understand why you need to rewrite the message beyond what you already do? Just determine the end of headers properly then rewrite the message with your headers in the proper location. You already rewrite the message when adding headers so why would it take any longer to properly detect the end of headers. If you have two LF sequences next to each other ignoring the CR then you have the end of headers. For example if you have CRLFCRLF OR LFCRLFCR OR LFLF I have never seen a message use CR alone for an end of line. There are two LF bytes in each sequence ignore the CR bytes. Then when writing out the message with the Declude headers include the original byte sequences for each line. And the Declude lines should have the proper CRLF sequences. My two cents! Kevin Bilbee 1. I don't like to keep going
RE: [Declude.JunkMail] declude not modifying subject line
Darin, 1. Personal attacks ie. you're just plain too lazy to make an effort to do anything about it. on this list will not be tolerated I will remove you from the list if you cannot keep to the issue. 2. I have posted how we are looking to resolve this and asked for any helpful feedback, do not forget we had implememnted a fix, but as we have seen it did not solve the problem and we are looking at it again. 3. If this issue cannot be resolved for you when you want it resolved I suggest finding another solution we are not forcing you to use Declude. 4. To start to lecture on how to best run a software development business is again out of the scope of this conversation. My answer is that as of now there is no release date for a fix, as soon as we have determined that we have one I will post this information. David B www.declude.com -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Darin Cox Sent: Thursday, November 09, 2006 9:20 AM To: declude.junkmail@declude.com Subject: Re: [Declude.JunkMail] declude not modifying subject line David, I'm sorry you feel that way, but I will not apologize for my post. Frankly I've had it with posts from Declude that seem to indicate no interest in solving the problem, as David F-R's post seemed. I've tried to be as nice as I could be through these past two years, but I've had enough of put-offs and lack of progress towards fixing issues over the past two years. Instead of a put-off, how about making some statements about what is or will be done? Refusal to give a date for anything just indicates poor project management practices. Our main business is software development, so I completely understand the issues of meeting dates, but in our business it's not acceptable to not give dates. We must use good project estimation and management skills to assess what needs to be done to perform a task, and balance the triangle of due date, resources, and task requirements to get the task done. That said extenuating circumstances can occur, requiring a due date to be moved. Communicating early and often with customers alleviates any concerns that customers might have with due date changes, but again, not giving a date is simply not acceptable. Giving a reasonable outside estimate, and meeting the date earlier is, however. Darin. - Original Message - From: David Barker [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: declude.junkmail@declude.com Sent: Thursday, November 09, 2006 9:06 AM Subject: RE: [Declude.JunkMail] declude not modifying subject line Darin, I will not commit to a date of having a fix and then not reach that date. I understand your frustration with this issue. The truth is we are currently working on it, I think that your statement of being plain lazy to make an effort is uncalled for. I have posted we are open to suggestions, again if you feel like you need to vent your frustration feel free to call me directly 978-499-2933 xt 7007 David B www.declude.com -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Darin Cox Sent: Thursday, November 09, 2006 8:56 AM To: declude.junkmail@declude.com Subject: Re: [Declude.JunkMail] declude not modifying subject line Well, David. You've known about the problem for a very long time, and from a customer perspective absolutely nothing has been done. No potential fix release date. Nothing other than we're working on it. From your post to the list, it doesn't even sound like we're working on it was true. Pardon my frustration at the continual lack of progress on almost every front, but this post makes it sound like you're just plain too lazy to make an effort to do anything about it. If you need help identify the various scenarios, post samples to the list and we'll help you. There are a lot of bright people on this list who can help you out. Bottom line, figure out what needs to be done, get it done, and we'll stop hounding you on this issue. Darin. - Original Message - From: David Franco-Rocha [ Declude ] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: declude.junkmail@declude.com Sent: Thursday, November 09, 2006 8:32 AM Subject: Re: [Declude.JunkMail] declude not modifying subject line Kevin, I am very well aware of what byte sequences constitute the end of a line. However, if the problem were this simple it would have been fixed long ago. Contrary to what some have said here, we have seen many instances where IMail likewise appends its headers to the end of the message. The broken line terminators are not necessarily of the same type in a given message. In addition, they are not necessarily adjacent to each other (with leading whitespace or unprintable characters on a line). What may appear obvious to the eye is often not at all what exists behind the scene. You may look at a message and be certain where the headers end and the body begins (the separating blank line). However, that message may not necessarily contain two consecutive EOL sequences
RE: [Declude.JunkMail] declude not modifying subject line
Hi David: Unfortunately Andy you are incorrect we have seen numerous instances where IMail likewise has put its headers at the end of the body. In that case, I agree. Once I encounter a message with Imail Headers trailing the message, I will certainly open a report with Ipswitch. Unfortunately, so far, I have yet to encounter one (but that may just be a function of the type of mail I receive and/or which messages I'm blocking/deleting outright, etc.) Without any files to document the problem to Ipswitch, I don't feel I can approach the other vendor. Best Regards Andy Schmidt Phone: +1 201 934-3414 x20 (Business) Fax:+1 201 934-9206 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of David Barker Sent: Thursday, November 09, 2006 08:58 AM To: declude.junkmail@declude.com Subject: RE: [Declude.JunkMail] declude not modifying subject line Unfortunately Andy you are incorrect we have seen numerous instances where IMail likewise has put its headers at the end of the body. David B www.declude.com -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Andy Schmidt Sent: Wednesday, November 08, 2006 4:57 PM To: declude.junkmail@declude.com Subject: RE: [Declude.JunkMail] declude not modifying subject line Hi, As per previous posts I agree that Declude needs to deal with this issue, as neither SmarterMail or Imail have addressed this, just out of curiosity has anyone contacted SmarterMail or Imail and asked them to address this issue, and if so what was their response I never asked them to address it because Imail prepends the Received headers at the top and appends the other headers in the correct spot, as far as I can tell. It's accepting a message, works around the non-standard line feeds and delivers the message. So there's nothing to fix for them, in my opinion. Best Regards Andy Schmidt Phone: +1 201 934-3414 x20 (Business) Fax:+1 201 934-9206 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of David Barker Sent: Wednesday, November 08, 2006 04:37 PM To: declude.junkmail@declude.com Subject: RE: [Declude.JunkMail] declude not modifying subject line 1. I don't like to keep going in circles on this. If it was as easy as just fix it there would be no issue. Please understand that this is a lot more complex than you may realize, we are considering making the fixing of line terminators as an optional feature to be turned on/off because of a potential performance degradation of rewriting the messages. 2. Just so that you know we are a privately funded company and do not have any VC funding. 3. As per previous posts I agree that Declude needs to deal with this issue, as neither SmarterMail or Imail have addressed this, just out of curiosity has anyone contacted SmarterMail or Imail and asked them to address this issue, and if so what was their response ? David B www.declude.com -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Colbeck, Andrew Sent: Wednesday, November 08, 2006 2:03 PM To: declude.junkmail@declude.com Subject: RE: [Declude.JunkMail] declude not modifying subject line Me three! Is it done yet? No? Darn. Frankly, David, if the Declude app is going to have to rewrite the whole message anyway to insert headers, make it an optional *feature* to fix up the line terminators. Then market it as a unique feature; I understand that Venture Capitalists love their startups to have innovative features that differentiate their product in the marketplace. Meanwhile, just fix the Declude app so that inserts the header correctly as befits our reasonable expectations as set by all the other products in the marketplace. Andrew. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Darin Cox Sent: Wednesday, November 08, 2006 10:41 AM To: declude.junkmail@declude.com Subject: Re: [Declude.JunkMail] declude not modifying subject line Agreed. Put the headers where they need to be. Don't worry about fixing the message. Having this additional test could be worthwhile as well, to identify and report on mailers that are broken in this fashion. Darin. - Original Message - From: Andy Schmidt [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: declude.junkmail@declude.com Sent: Wednesday, November 08, 2006 12:03 PM Subject: RE: [Declude.JunkMail] declude not modifying subject line Hi Dave: 1. This is currently being worked on, there are several other things that need to be taken into account when doing this, for example if Declude has to rewrite all me messages in order to correct this problem there will be a hit on performance. We are also looking at some other alternatives. Any suggestions are welcome. Although I know this had been suggested - I personally don't feel that Declude needs (or even SHOULD) rewrite the message. If the message is readable
RE: [Declude.JunkMail] declude not modifying subject line
Hi David: The broken line terminators are not necessarily of the same type in a given message. In addition, they are not necessarily adjacent to each other (with leading whitespace or unprintable characters on a line). What may appear obvious to the eye is often not at all what exists behind the scene. You may look at a message and be certain where the headers end and the body begins (the separating blank line). However, that message may not necessarily contain two consecutive EOL sequences of any type anywhere. I think part of the frustration is, that some of us are in the business of problem solving and/or even systems programming and have a hard time relating to the specific difficulties you have encoutered without seeing live samples. After all, if Outlook can show the intended content of the message correctly, there IS a way how Outlook was able to determine the intended end of header (with Decludes headers appearing at the bottom of the message body in Outlook). Since Microsoft only cooks with water too (and I can't imagine them having put any deep thought into dealing with broken headers), it seems somewhat obvious that there is solution out there that just has been escaping whoever is working on it. Dave said in his message that he was asking for help / input / suggestions from users. I think some of us would love to step up to the plate and give it a try to devise an algorithm that discards white spaces, detects any newline sequences and then manages to detect the end of header the same way the human eye does and/or the same way Outlook clearly manages to. It may be unconventional - but if you placed sample text files of your different scenarios into a zip file and upload it somewhere, we all could collaborate - in the same way that we collaborated in the past when defining/devising new rules, filters, etc. Best Regards Andy Schmidt Phone: +1 201 934-3414 x20 (Business) Fax:+1 201 934-9206 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of David Franco-Rocha [ Declude ] Sent: Thursday, November 09, 2006 08:32 AM To: declude.junkmail@declude.com Subject: Re: [Declude.JunkMail] declude not modifying subject line Kevin, I am very well aware of what byte sequences constitute the end of a line. However, if the problem were this simple it would have been fixed long ago. Contrary to what some have said here, we have seen many instances where IMail likewise appends its headers to the end of the message. The broken line terminators are not necessarily of the same type in a given message. In addition, they are not necessarily adjacent to each other (with leading whitespace or unprintable characters on a line). What may appear obvious to the eye is often not at all what exists behind the scene. You may look at a message and be certain where the headers end and the body begins (the separating blank line). However, that message may not necessarily contain two consecutive EOL sequences of any type anywhere. David Franco-Rocha - Original Message - From: Kevin Bilbee [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: declude.junkmail@declude.com Sent: Wednesday, November 08, 2006 5:45 PM Subject: RE: [Declude.JunkMail] declude not modifying subject line I do not understand why you need to rewrite the message beyond what you already do? Just determine the end of headers properly then rewrite the message with your headers in the proper location. You already rewrite the message when adding headers so why would it take any longer to properly detect the end of headers. If you have two LF sequences next to each other ignoring the CR then you have the end of headers. For example if you have CRLFCRLF OR LFCRLFCR OR LFLF I have never seen a message use CR alone for an end of line. There are two LF bytes in each sequence ignore the CR bytes. Then when writing out the message with the Declude headers include the original byte sequences for each line. And the Declude lines should have the proper CRLF sequences. My two cents! Kevin Bilbee 1. I don't like to keep going in circles on this. If it was as easy as just fix it there would be no issue. Please understand that this is a lot more complex than you may realize, we are considering making the fixing of line terminators as an optional feature to be turned on/off because of a potential performance degradation of rewriting the messages. --- This E-mail came from the Declude.JunkMail mailing list. To unsubscribe, just send an E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED], and type unsubscribe Declude.JunkMail. The archives can be found at http://www.mail-archive.com. --- This E-mail came from the Declude.JunkMail mailing list. To unsubscribe, just send an E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED], and type unsubscribe Declude.JunkMail. The archives can be found at http://www.mail-archive.com. --- This E-mail came from the Declude.JunkMail mailing list. To unsubscribe, just send an E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED
Re: [Declude.JunkMail] declude not modifying subject line
Hi David F, David Franco-Rocha [ Declude ] wrote: The broken line terminators are not necessarily of the same type in a given message. In addition, they are not necessarily adjacent to each other (with leading whitespace or unprintable characters on a line).What may appear obvious to the eye is often not at all what exists behind the scene. You may look at a message and be certain where the headers end and the body begins (the separating blank line). However, that message may not necessarily contain two consecutive EOL sequences of any type anywhere. Would it be possible for you to post to the list samples of emails that are problematic? Lets all have a look and maybe the solution will be found right off - Heck maybe even Scott who I just saw post may chime in on this one. Regards, -Nick --- This E-mail came from the Declude.JunkMail mailing list. To unsubscribe, just send an E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED], and type unsubscribe Declude.JunkMail. The archives can be found at http://www.mail-archive.com.
Re: [Declude.JunkMail] declude not modifying subject line
Hi David; In an earlier message (below) you mentioned that you were working on adding the ability to handle these malformed messages. A couple questions. 1. When will this happen as it has been a problem for quite a while now? 2. The messages themselves are not failing any of the tests that I am using. Shouldn't we at least be able to have them fail a test and then take an action based on that? Also, I want to make sure that all of my config files are correct, and that I do not have any depreciated tests in them. When I go to the online manuals on your site, the links to the tests are broken, and I cannot find samples of the config files. Can you tell me where they are, and perhaps update the links in the KB so that they do point to them? Thanks, Herb David Barker wrote: Agreed Andy. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Andy Schmidt Sent: Wednesday, November 01, 2006 10:31 AM To: declude.junkmail@declude.com Subject: RE: [Declude.JunkMail] declude not modifying subject line Hi David: Pardon me - but lets not forget that we choose to pay Declude license and maintenance fees, precisely because of its claim of being superior in detecting viruses, vulnerabilities and RFC violations that other components are known to letting through. When your business model is based on the premise that you will be closing the holes that other components leave, then Declude cannot retreat behind an argument that you are only as defect as the other guys. Clearly, if Imail/Smartermail did act appropriately and offered all the features it should, then you wouldn't have a customer base in the first place. Best Regards Andy Schmidt Phone: +1 201 934-3414 x20 (Business) Fax:+1 201 934-9206 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of David Barker Sent: Wednesday, November 01, 2006 10:02 AM To: declude.junkmail@declude.com Subject: RE: [Declude.JunkMail] declude not modifying subject line Herb, I need to clarify something here. This source of this problem is that these messages do not conform to the RFC's and are extremely broken and should not be accepted by the mail server in the first place. That is the source of the problem, Declude is showing the symptom. Have you approached SmarterMail/Imail and asked them to fix this issue, either not accept the message or apply message standardization ? What was their response ? With that said, we are working on correcting this problem because clearly the Mail server is not doing it. Secondly, there are alternatives to marking the Subject line and having the mail server take action based on the headers. You could use actions like. # MAILBOX will move the E-mail to a user's folder (no, not a Windows directory) # ROUTETO will re-route the E-mail to an alternate address # HOLD will hold the message in the spool\spam directory. David B --- This E-mail came from the Declude.JunkMail mailing list. To unsubscribe, just send an E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED], and type unsubscribe Declude.JunkMail. The archives can be found at http://www.mail-archive.com. --- This E-mail came from the Declude.JunkMail mailing list. To unsubscribe, just send an E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED], and type unsubscribe Declude.JunkMail. The archives can be found at http://www.mail-archive.com. -- Herb Guenther Lanex, LLC www.lanex.com (262)789-0966x102 Office (262)780-0424 Direct This e-mail is confidential and is for the use of the intended recipient(s)only. If you are not an intended recipient please advise us of our error by return e-mail then delete this e-mail and any attached files. You may not copy, disclose or use the contents in any way. --- This E-mail came from the Declude.JunkMail mailing list. To unsubscribe, just send an E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED], and type unsubscribe Declude.JunkMail. The archives can be found at http://www.mail-archive.com.
RE: [Declude.JunkMail] declude not modifying subject line
Herb, 1. This is currently being worked on, there are several other things that need to be taken into account when doing this, for example if Declude has to rewrite all me messages in order to correct this problem there will be a hit on performance. We are also looking at some other alternatives. Any suggestions are welcome. 2. This is not as simple as having these type of messages fail a test as there are too many variables in play wrt line terminators. 3. In your \Declude folder there should be a \Resources folder which has the latest config files. David B -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Herb Guenther Sent: Wednesday, November 08, 2006 11:22 AM To: declude.junkmail@declude.com Subject: Re: [Declude.JunkMail] declude not modifying subject line Hi David; In an earlier message (below) you mentioned that you were working on adding the ability to handle these malformed messages. A couple questions. 1. When will this happen as it has been a problem for quite a while now? 2. The messages themselves are not failing any of the tests that I am using. Shouldn't we at least be able to have them fail a test and then take an action based on that? Also, I want to make sure that all of my config files are correct, and that I do not have any depreciated tests in them. When I go to the online manuals on your site, the links to the tests are broken, and I cannot find samples of the config files. Can you tell me where they are, and perhaps update the links in the KB so that they do point to them? Thanks, Herb David Barker wrote: Agreed Andy. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Andy Schmidt Sent: Wednesday, November 01, 2006 10:31 AM To: declude.junkmail@declude.com Subject: RE: [Declude.JunkMail] declude not modifying subject line Hi David: Pardon me - but lets not forget that we choose to pay Declude license and maintenance fees, precisely because of its claim of being superior in detecting viruses, vulnerabilities and RFC violations that other components are known to letting through. When your business model is based on the premise that you will be closing the holes that other components leave, then Declude cannot retreat behind an argument that you are only as defect as the other guys. Clearly, if Imail/Smartermail did act appropriately and offered all the features it should, then you wouldn't have a customer base in the first place. Best Regards Andy Schmidt Phone: +1 201 934-3414 x20 (Business) Fax:+1 201 934-9206 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of David Barker Sent: Wednesday, November 01, 2006 10:02 AM To: declude.junkmail@declude.com Subject: RE: [Declude.JunkMail] declude not modifying subject line Herb, I need to clarify something here. This source of this problem is that these messages do not conform to the RFC's and are extremely broken and should not be accepted by the mail server in the first place. That is the source of the problem, Declude is showing the symptom. Have you approached SmarterMail/Imail and asked them to fix this issue, either not accept the message or apply message standardization ? What was their response ? With that said, we are working on correcting this problem because clearly the Mail server is not doing it. Secondly, there are alternatives to marking the Subject line and having the mail server take action based on the headers. You could use actions like. # MAILBOX will move the E-mail to a user's folder (no, not a Windows directory) # ROUTETO will re-route the E-mail to an alternate address # HOLD will hold the message in the spool\spam directory. David B --- This E-mail came from the Declude.JunkMail mailing list. To unsubscribe, just send an E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED], and type unsubscribe Declude.JunkMail. The archives can be found at http://www.mail-archive.com. --- This E-mail came from the Declude.JunkMail mailing list. To unsubscribe, just send an E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED], and type unsubscribe Declude.JunkMail. The archives can be found at http://www.mail-archive.com. -- Herb Guenther Lanex, LLC www.lanex.com (262)789-0966x102 Office (262)780-0424 Direct This e-mail is confidential and is for the use of the intended recipient(s)only. If you are not an intended recipient please advise us of our error by return e-mail then delete this e-mail and any attached files. You may not copy, disclose or use the contents in any way. --- This E-mail came from the Declude.JunkMail mailing list. To unsubscribe, just send an E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED], and type unsubscribe Declude.JunkMail. The archives can be found at http://www.mail-archive.com. --- This E-mail came from the Declude.JunkMail mailing list. To unsubscribe, just send an E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED], and type unsubscribe
RE: [Declude.JunkMail] declude not modifying subject line
Hi Dave: 1. This is currently being worked on, there are several other things that need to be taken into account when doing this, for example if Declude has to rewrite all me messages in order to correct this problem there will be a hit on performance. We are also looking at some other alternatives. Any suggestions are welcome. Although I know this had been suggested - I personally don't feel that Declude needs (or even SHOULD) rewrite the message. If the message is readable by Imail, Outlook, etc. - then the sender is in luck. If not, then the fact that other software can't read the message will motivate the sender to use RFC compliant formatting. I feel all that's necessary is that Declude's end-of-line parsing should be made intelligent enough so that it DOES detect various CR CR/LF LF LF/CR combinations and treat them as end-of-line, so that it can properly detect the intended last header. This way, Declude can: A) append it's own header at the proper location (not append it below the message body.) B) determining where the message content starts (so that the content can be properly scanned for Viruses) I get the feeling this issue of end-of-line detection is being made overly complicated. Declude is not a message-fixer-upper. I have enough problems with people using CISCO SMTP FIXUP that breaks everything. Declude's job is to correctly determine the header vs. content and then subject the header and content to appropriate analysis. If a message is found to be malformed, then Declude can make it fail a Test so that the mail admin can decide to accept or reject those messages - but it's not Declude's job to artificially make an incompatible message compatible with email clients. Best Regards Andy Schmidt Phone: +1 201 934-3414 x20 (Business) Fax:+1 201 934-9206 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of David Barker Sent: Wednesday, November 08, 2006 11:38 AM To: declude.junkmail@declude.com Subject: RE: [Declude.JunkMail] declude not modifying subject line Herb, 1. This is currently being worked on, there are several other things that need to be taken into account when doing this, for example if Declude has to rewrite all me messages in order to correct this problem there will be a hit on performance. We are also looking at some other alternatives. Any suggestions are welcome. 2. This is not as simple as having these type of messages fail a test as there are too many variables in play wrt line terminators. 3. In your \Declude folder there should be a \Resources folder which has the latest config files. David B -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Herb Guenther Sent: Wednesday, November 08, 2006 11:22 AM To: declude.junkmail@declude.com Subject: Re: [Declude.JunkMail] declude not modifying subject line Hi David; In an earlier message (below) you mentioned that you were working on adding the ability to handle these malformed messages. A couple questions. 1. When will this happen as it has been a problem for quite a while now? 2. The messages themselves are not failing any of the tests that I am using. Shouldn't we at least be able to have them fail a test and then take an action based on that? Also, I want to make sure that all of my config files are correct, and that I do not have any depreciated tests in them. When I go to the online manuals on your site, the links to the tests are broken, and I cannot find samples of the config files. Can you tell me where they are, and perhaps update the links in the KB so that they do point to them? Thanks, Herb David Barker wrote: Agreed Andy. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Andy Schmidt Sent: Wednesday, November 01, 2006 10:31 AM To: declude.junkmail@declude.com Subject: RE: [Declude.JunkMail] declude not modifying subject line Hi David: Pardon me - but lets not forget that we choose to pay Declude license and maintenance fees, precisely because of its claim of being superior in detecting viruses, vulnerabilities and RFC violations that other components are known to letting through. When your business model is based on the premise that you will be closing the holes that other components leave, then Declude cannot retreat behind an argument that you are only as defect as the other guys. Clearly, if Imail/Smartermail did act appropriately and offered all the features it should, then you wouldn't have a customer base in the first place. Best Regards Andy Schmidt Phone: +1 201 934-3414 x20 (Business) Fax:+1 201 934-9206 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of David Barker Sent: Wednesday, November 01, 2006 10:02 AM To: declude.junkmail@declude.com Subject: RE: [Declude.JunkMail] declude not modifying subject line Herb, I need to clarify something here. This source
Re: [Declude.JunkMail] declude not modifying subject line
Andy Schmidt wrote: I get the feeling this issue of end-of-line detection is being made overly complicated. Declude is not a message-fixer-upper. I have enough problems with people using CISCO SMTP FIXUP that breaks everything. Declude's job is to correctly determine the header vs. content and then subject the header and content to appropriate analysis. If a message is found to be malformed, then Declude can make it fail a Test so that the mail admin can decide to accept or reject those messages - but it's not Declude's job to artificially make an incompatible message compatible with email clients. Well said Andy. I completely agree. Bill Green dfn Systems --- This E-mail came from the Declude.JunkMail mailing list. To unsubscribe, just send an E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED], and type unsubscribe Declude.JunkMail. The archives can be found at http://www.mail-archive.com.
Re: [Declude.JunkMail] declude not modifying subject line
Agreed. Put the headers where they need to be. Don't worry about fixing the message. Having this additional test could be worthwhile as well, to identify and report on mailers that are broken in this fashion. Darin. - Original Message - From: Andy Schmidt [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: declude.junkmail@declude.com Sent: Wednesday, November 08, 2006 12:03 PM Subject: RE: [Declude.JunkMail] declude not modifying subject line Hi Dave: 1. This is currently being worked on, there are several other things that need to be taken into account when doing this, for example if Declude has to rewrite all me messages in order to correct this problem there will be a hit on performance. We are also looking at some other alternatives. Any suggestions are welcome. Although I know this had been suggested - I personally don't feel that Declude needs (or even SHOULD) rewrite the message. If the message is readable by Imail, Outlook, etc. - then the sender is in luck. If not, then the fact that other software can't read the message will motivate the sender to use RFC compliant formatting. I feel all that's necessary is that Declude's end-of-line parsing should be made intelligent enough so that it DOES detect various CR CR/LF LF LF/CR combinations and treat them as end-of-line, so that it can properly detect the intended last header. This way, Declude can: A) append it's own header at the proper location (not append it below the message body.) B) determining where the message content starts (so that the content can be properly scanned for Viruses) I get the feeling this issue of end-of-line detection is being made overly complicated. Declude is not a message-fixer-upper. I have enough problems with people using CISCO SMTP FIXUP that breaks everything. Declude's job is to correctly determine the header vs. content and then subject the header and content to appropriate analysis. If a message is found to be malformed, then Declude can make it fail a Test so that the mail admin can decide to accept or reject those messages - but it's not Declude's job to artificially make an incompatible message compatible with email clients. Best Regards Andy Schmidt Phone: +1 201 934-3414 x20 (Business) Fax:+1 201 934-9206 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of David Barker Sent: Wednesday, November 08, 2006 11:38 AM To: declude.junkmail@declude.com Subject: RE: [Declude.JunkMail] declude not modifying subject line Herb, 1. This is currently being worked on, there are several other things that need to be taken into account when doing this, for example if Declude has to rewrite all me messages in order to correct this problem there will be a hit on performance. We are also looking at some other alternatives. Any suggestions are welcome. 2. This is not as simple as having these type of messages fail a test as there are too many variables in play wrt line terminators. 3. In your \Declude folder there should be a \Resources folder which has the latest config files. David B -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Herb Guenther Sent: Wednesday, November 08, 2006 11:22 AM To: declude.junkmail@declude.com Subject: Re: [Declude.JunkMail] declude not modifying subject line Hi David; In an earlier message (below) you mentioned that you were working on adding the ability to handle these malformed messages. A couple questions. 1. When will this happen as it has been a problem for quite a while now? 2. The messages themselves are not failing any of the tests that I am using. Shouldn't we at least be able to have them fail a test and then take an action based on that? Also, I want to make sure that all of my config files are correct, and that I do not have any depreciated tests in them. When I go to the online manuals on your site, the links to the tests are broken, and I cannot find samples of the config files. Can you tell me where they are, and perhaps update the links in the KB so that they do point to them? Thanks, Herb David Barker wrote: Agreed Andy. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Andy Schmidt Sent: Wednesday, November 01, 2006 10:31 AM To: declude.junkmail@declude.com Subject: RE: [Declude.JunkMail] declude not modifying subject line Hi David: Pardon me - but lets not forget that we choose to pay Declude license and maintenance fees, precisely because of its claim of being superior in detecting viruses, vulnerabilities and RFC violations that other components are known to letting through. When your business model is based on the premise that you will be closing the holes that other components leave, then Declude cannot retreat behind an argument that you are only as defect as the other guys. Clearly, if Imail/Smartermail did act appropriately and offered all the features it should, then you wouldn't have a customer base
RE: [Declude.JunkMail] declude not modifying subject line
Me three! Is it done yet? No? Darn. Frankly, David, if the Declude app is going to have to rewrite the whole message anyway to insert headers, make it an optional *feature* to fix up the line terminators. Then market it as a unique feature; I understand that Venture Capitalists love their startups to have innovative features that differentiate their product in the marketplace. Meanwhile, just fix the Declude app so that inserts the header correctly as befits our reasonable expectations as set by all the other products in the marketplace. Andrew. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Darin Cox Sent: Wednesday, November 08, 2006 10:41 AM To: declude.junkmail@declude.com Subject: Re: [Declude.JunkMail] declude not modifying subject line Agreed. Put the headers where they need to be. Don't worry about fixing the message. Having this additional test could be worthwhile as well, to identify and report on mailers that are broken in this fashion. Darin. - Original Message - From: Andy Schmidt [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: declude.junkmail@declude.com Sent: Wednesday, November 08, 2006 12:03 PM Subject: RE: [Declude.JunkMail] declude not modifying subject line Hi Dave: 1. This is currently being worked on, there are several other things that need to be taken into account when doing this, for example if Declude has to rewrite all me messages in order to correct this problem there will be a hit on performance. We are also looking at some other alternatives. Any suggestions are welcome. Although I know this had been suggested - I personally don't feel that Declude needs (or even SHOULD) rewrite the message. If the message is readable by Imail, Outlook, etc. - then the sender is in luck. If not, then the fact that other software can't read the message will motivate the sender to use RFC compliant formatting. I feel all that's necessary is that Declude's end-of-line parsing should be made intelligent enough so that it DOES detect various CR CR/LF LF LF/CR combinations and treat them as end-of-line, so that it can properly detect the intended last header. This way, Declude can: A) append it's own header at the proper location (not append it below the message body.) B) determining where the message content starts (so that the content can be properly scanned for Viruses) I get the feeling this issue of end-of-line detection is being made overly complicated. Declude is not a message-fixer-upper. I have enough problems with people using CISCO SMTP FIXUP that breaks everything. Declude's job is to correctly determine the header vs. content and then subject the header and content to appropriate analysis. If a message is found to be malformed, then Declude can make it fail a Test so that the mail admin can decide to accept or reject those messages - but it's not Declude's job to artificially make an incompatible message compatible with email clients. Best Regards Andy Schmidt Phone: +1 201 934-3414 x20 (Business) Fax:+1 201 934-9206 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of David Barker Sent: Wednesday, November 08, 2006 11:38 AM To: declude.junkmail@declude.com Subject: RE: [Declude.JunkMail] declude not modifying subject line Herb, 1. This is currently being worked on, there are several other things that need to be taken into account when doing this, for example if Declude has to rewrite all me messages in order to correct this problem there will be a hit on performance. We are also looking at some other alternatives. Any suggestions are welcome. 2. This is not as simple as having these type of messages fail a test as there are too many variables in play wrt line terminators. 3. In your \Declude folder there should be a \Resources folder which has the latest config files. David B -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Herb Guenther Sent: Wednesday, November 08, 2006 11:22 AM To: declude.junkmail@declude.com Subject: Re: [Declude.JunkMail] declude not modifying subject line Hi David; In an earlier message (below) you mentioned that you were working on adding the ability to handle these malformed messages. A couple questions. 1. When will this happen as it has been a problem for quite a while now? 2. The messages themselves are not failing any of the tests that I am using. Shouldn't we at least be able to have them fail a test and then take an action based on that? Also, I want to make sure that all of my config files are correct, and that I do not have any depreciated tests in them. When I go to the online manuals on your site, the links to the tests are broken, and I cannot find samples of the config files. Can you tell me where
RE: [Declude.JunkMail] declude not modifying subject line
1. I don't like to keep going in circles on this. If it was as easy as just fix it there would be no issue. Please understand that this is a lot more complex than you may realize, we are considering making the fixing of line terminators as an optional feature to be turned on/off because of a potential performance degradation of rewriting the messages. 2. Just so that you know we are a privately funded company and do not have any VC funding. 3. As per previous posts I agree that Declude needs to deal with this issue, as neither SmarterMail or Imail have addressed this, just out of curiosity has anyone contacted SmarterMail or Imail and asked them to address this issue, and if so what was their response ? David B www.declude.com -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Colbeck, Andrew Sent: Wednesday, November 08, 2006 2:03 PM To: declude.junkmail@declude.com Subject: RE: [Declude.JunkMail] declude not modifying subject line Me three! Is it done yet? No? Darn. Frankly, David, if the Declude app is going to have to rewrite the whole message anyway to insert headers, make it an optional *feature* to fix up the line terminators. Then market it as a unique feature; I understand that Venture Capitalists love their startups to have innovative features that differentiate their product in the marketplace. Meanwhile, just fix the Declude app so that inserts the header correctly as befits our reasonable expectations as set by all the other products in the marketplace. Andrew. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Darin Cox Sent: Wednesday, November 08, 2006 10:41 AM To: declude.junkmail@declude.com Subject: Re: [Declude.JunkMail] declude not modifying subject line Agreed. Put the headers where they need to be. Don't worry about fixing the message. Having this additional test could be worthwhile as well, to identify and report on mailers that are broken in this fashion. Darin. - Original Message - From: Andy Schmidt [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: declude.junkmail@declude.com Sent: Wednesday, November 08, 2006 12:03 PM Subject: RE: [Declude.JunkMail] declude not modifying subject line Hi Dave: 1. This is currently being worked on, there are several other things that need to be taken into account when doing this, for example if Declude has to rewrite all me messages in order to correct this problem there will be a hit on performance. We are also looking at some other alternatives. Any suggestions are welcome. Although I know this had been suggested - I personally don't feel that Declude needs (or even SHOULD) rewrite the message. If the message is readable by Imail, Outlook, etc. - then the sender is in luck. If not, then the fact that other software can't read the message will motivate the sender to use RFC compliant formatting. I feel all that's necessary is that Declude's end-of-line parsing should be made intelligent enough so that it DOES detect various CR CR/LF LF LF/CR combinations and treat them as end-of-line, so that it can properly detect the intended last header. This way, Declude can: A) append it's own header at the proper location (not append it below the message body.) B) determining where the message content starts (so that the content can be properly scanned for Viruses) I get the feeling this issue of end-of-line detection is being made overly complicated. Declude is not a message-fixer-upper. I have enough problems with people using CISCO SMTP FIXUP that breaks everything. Declude's job is to correctly determine the header vs. content and then subject the header and content to appropriate analysis. If a message is found to be malformed, then Declude can make it fail a Test so that the mail admin can decide to accept or reject those messages - but it's not Declude's job to artificially make an incompatible message compatible with email clients. Best Regards Andy Schmidt Phone: +1 201 934-3414 x20 (Business) Fax:+1 201 934-9206 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of David Barker Sent: Wednesday, November 08, 2006 11:38 AM To: declude.junkmail@declude.com Subject: RE: [Declude.JunkMail] declude not modifying subject line Herb, 1. This is currently being worked on, there are several other things that need to be taken into account when doing this, for example if Declude has to rewrite all me messages in order to correct this problem there will be a hit on performance. We are also looking at some other alternatives. Any suggestions are welcome. 2. This is not as simple as having these type of messages fail a test as there are too many variables in play wrt line terminators. 3. In your \Declude folder there should be a \Resources folder which has the latest config files. David B
RE: [Declude.JunkMail] declude not modifying subject line
Hi, As per previous posts I agree that Declude needs to deal with this issue, as neither SmarterMail or Imail have addressed this, just out of curiosity has anyone contacted SmarterMail or Imail and asked them to address this issue, and if so what was their response I never asked them to address it because Imail prepends the Received headers at the top and appends the other headers in the correct spot, as far as I can tell. It's accepting a message, works around the non-standard line feeds and delivers the message. So there's nothing to fix for them, in my opinion. Best Regards Andy Schmidt Phone: +1 201 934-3414 x20 (Business) Fax:+1 201 934-9206 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of David Barker Sent: Wednesday, November 08, 2006 04:37 PM To: declude.junkmail@declude.com Subject: RE: [Declude.JunkMail] declude not modifying subject line 1. I don't like to keep going in circles on this. If it was as easy as just fix it there would be no issue. Please understand that this is a lot more complex than you may realize, we are considering making the fixing of line terminators as an optional feature to be turned on/off because of a potential performance degradation of rewriting the messages. 2. Just so that you know we are a privately funded company and do not have any VC funding. 3. As per previous posts I agree that Declude needs to deal with this issue, as neither SmarterMail or Imail have addressed this, just out of curiosity has anyone contacted SmarterMail or Imail and asked them to address this issue, and if so what was their response ? David B www.declude.com -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Colbeck, Andrew Sent: Wednesday, November 08, 2006 2:03 PM To: declude.junkmail@declude.com Subject: RE: [Declude.JunkMail] declude not modifying subject line Me three! Is it done yet? No? Darn. Frankly, David, if the Declude app is going to have to rewrite the whole message anyway to insert headers, make it an optional *feature* to fix up the line terminators. Then market it as a unique feature; I understand that Venture Capitalists love their startups to have innovative features that differentiate their product in the marketplace. Meanwhile, just fix the Declude app so that inserts the header correctly as befits our reasonable expectations as set by all the other products in the marketplace. Andrew. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Darin Cox Sent: Wednesday, November 08, 2006 10:41 AM To: declude.junkmail@declude.com Subject: Re: [Declude.JunkMail] declude not modifying subject line Agreed. Put the headers where they need to be. Don't worry about fixing the message. Having this additional test could be worthwhile as well, to identify and report on mailers that are broken in this fashion. Darin. - Original Message - From: Andy Schmidt [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: declude.junkmail@declude.com Sent: Wednesday, November 08, 2006 12:03 PM Subject: RE: [Declude.JunkMail] declude not modifying subject line Hi Dave: 1. This is currently being worked on, there are several other things that need to be taken into account when doing this, for example if Declude has to rewrite all me messages in order to correct this problem there will be a hit on performance. We are also looking at some other alternatives. Any suggestions are welcome. Although I know this had been suggested - I personally don't feel that Declude needs (or even SHOULD) rewrite the message. If the message is readable by Imail, Outlook, etc. - then the sender is in luck. If not, then the fact that other software can't read the message will motivate the sender to use RFC compliant formatting. I feel all that's necessary is that Declude's end-of-line parsing should be made intelligent enough so that it DOES detect various CR CR/LF LF LF/CR combinations and treat them as end-of-line, so that it can properly detect the intended last header. This way, Declude can: A) append it's own header at the proper location (not append it below the message body.) B) determining where the message content starts (so that the content can be properly scanned for Viruses) I get the feeling this issue of end-of-line detection is being made overly complicated. Declude is not a message-fixer-upper. I have enough problems with people using CISCO SMTP FIXUP that breaks everything. Declude's job is to correctly determine the header vs. content and then subject the header and content to appropriate analysis. If a message is found to be malformed, then Declude can make it fail a Test so that the mail admin can decide to accept or reject those messages - but it's not Declude's job to artificially make an incompatible message compatible with email clients. Best Regards Andy Schmidt
RE: [Declude.JunkMail] declude not modifying subject line
David -- The problem exists in Interceptor, as well, so a fix from Ipswitch or Smartermail isn't going to solve all of the problems, unfortunately. If it helps at all, every message that is malformed this way is bad, spam scores off the charts. Rob -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of David Barker Sent: Wednesday, November 08, 2006 3:37 PM To: declude.junkmail@declude.com Subject: RE: [Declude.JunkMail] declude not modifying subject line 1. I don't like to keep going in circles on this. If it was as easy as just fix it there would be no issue. Please understand that this is a lot more complex than you may realize, we are considering making the fixing of line terminators as an optional feature to be turned on/off because of a potential performance degradation of rewriting the messages. 2. Just so that you know we are a privately funded company and do not have any VC funding. 3. As per previous posts I agree that Declude needs to deal with this issue, as neither SmarterMail or Imail have addressed this, just out of curiosity has anyone contacted SmarterMail or Imail and asked them to address this issue, and if so what was their response ? David B www.declude.com -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Colbeck, Andrew Sent: Wednesday, November 08, 2006 2:03 PM To: declude.junkmail@declude.com Subject: RE: [Declude.JunkMail] declude not modifying subject line Me three! Is it done yet? No? Darn. Frankly, David, if the Declude app is going to have to rewrite the whole message anyway to insert headers, make it an optional *feature* to fix up the line terminators. Then market it as a unique feature; I understand that Venture Capitalists love their startups to have innovative features that differentiate their product in the marketplace. Meanwhile, just fix the Declude app so that inserts the header correctly as befits our reasonable expectations as set by all the other products in the marketplace. Andrew. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Darin Cox Sent: Wednesday, November 08, 2006 10:41 AM To: declude.junkmail@declude.com Subject: Re: [Declude.JunkMail] declude not modifying subject line Agreed. Put the headers where they need to be. Don't worry about fixing the message. Having this additional test could be worthwhile as well, to identify and report on mailers that are broken in this fashion. Darin. - Original Message - From: Andy Schmidt [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: declude.junkmail@declude.com Sent: Wednesday, November 08, 2006 12:03 PM Subject: RE: [Declude.JunkMail] declude not modifying subject line Hi Dave: 1. This is currently being worked on, there are several other things that need to be taken into account when doing this, for example if Declude has to rewrite all me messages in order to correct this problem there will be a hit on performance. We are also looking at some other alternatives. Any suggestions are welcome. Although I know this had been suggested - I personally don't feel that Declude needs (or even SHOULD) rewrite the message. If the message is readable by Imail, Outlook, etc. - then the sender is in luck. If not, then the fact that other software can't read the message will motivate the sender to use RFC compliant formatting. I feel all that's necessary is that Declude's end-of-line parsing should be made intelligent enough so that it DOES detect various CR CR/LF LF LF/CR combinations and treat them as end-of-line, so that it can properly detect the intended last header. This way, Declude can: A) append it's own header at the proper location (not append it below the message body.) B) determining where the message content starts (so that the content can be properly scanned for Viruses) I get the feeling this issue of end-of-line detection is being made overly complicated. Declude is not a message-fixer-upper. I have enough problems with people using CISCO SMTP FIXUP that breaks everything. Declude's job is to correctly determine the header vs. content and then subject the header and content to appropriate analysis. If a message is found to be malformed, then Declude can make it fail a Test so that the mail admin can decide to accept or reject those messages - but it's not Declude's job to artificially make an incompatible message compatible with email clients. Best Regards Andy Schmidt Phone: +1 201 934-3414 x20 (Business) Fax:+1 201 934-9206 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of David Barker Sent: Wednesday, November 08, 2006 11:38 AM To: declude.junkmail@declude.com Subject: RE: [Declude.JunkMail] declude not modifying subject line Herb, 1. This is currently being worked on, there are several other things that need
RE: [Declude.JunkMail] declude not modifying subject line
Rob, Thanks for the info. Yes we know that these messages are most likely always spam, the problem comes in that some admins just tag their subject lines and rely on either rules at the mail server level or client to process the message based on the subject. But with the altered header in the body theses email get through. There is a work around in that one could use a different action. David B www.declude.com -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Robert Grosshandler Sent: Wednesday, November 08, 2006 5:22 PM To: declude.junkmail@declude.com Subject: RE: [Declude.JunkMail] declude not modifying subject line David -- The problem exists in Interceptor, as well, so a fix from Ipswitch or Smartermail isn't going to solve all of the problems, unfortunately. If it helps at all, every message that is malformed this way is bad, spam scores off the charts. Rob -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of David Barker Sent: Wednesday, November 08, 2006 3:37 PM To: declude.junkmail@declude.com Subject: RE: [Declude.JunkMail] declude not modifying subject line 1. I don't like to keep going in circles on this. If it was as easy as just fix it there would be no issue. Please understand that this is a lot more complex than you may realize, we are considering making the fixing of line terminators as an optional feature to be turned on/off because of a potential performance degradation of rewriting the messages. 2. Just so that you know we are a privately funded company and do not have any VC funding. 3. As per previous posts I agree that Declude needs to deal with this issue, as neither SmarterMail or Imail have addressed this, just out of curiosity has anyone contacted SmarterMail or Imail and asked them to address this issue, and if so what was their response ? David B www.declude.com -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Colbeck, Andrew Sent: Wednesday, November 08, 2006 2:03 PM To: declude.junkmail@declude.com Subject: RE: [Declude.JunkMail] declude not modifying subject line Me three! Is it done yet? No? Darn. Frankly, David, if the Declude app is going to have to rewrite the whole message anyway to insert headers, make it an optional *feature* to fix up the line terminators. Then market it as a unique feature; I understand that Venture Capitalists love their startups to have innovative features that differentiate their product in the marketplace. Meanwhile, just fix the Declude app so that inserts the header correctly as befits our reasonable expectations as set by all the other products in the marketplace. Andrew. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Darin Cox Sent: Wednesday, November 08, 2006 10:41 AM To: declude.junkmail@declude.com Subject: Re: [Declude.JunkMail] declude not modifying subject line Agreed. Put the headers where they need to be. Don't worry about fixing the message. Having this additional test could be worthwhile as well, to identify and report on mailers that are broken in this fashion. Darin. - Original Message - From: Andy Schmidt [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: declude.junkmail@declude.com Sent: Wednesday, November 08, 2006 12:03 PM Subject: RE: [Declude.JunkMail] declude not modifying subject line Hi Dave: 1. This is currently being worked on, there are several other things that need to be taken into account when doing this, for example if Declude has to rewrite all me messages in order to correct this problem there will be a hit on performance. We are also looking at some other alternatives. Any suggestions are welcome. Although I know this had been suggested - I personally don't feel that Declude needs (or even SHOULD) rewrite the message. If the message is readable by Imail, Outlook, etc. - then the sender is in luck. If not, then the fact that other software can't read the message will motivate the sender to use RFC compliant formatting. I feel all that's necessary is that Declude's end-of-line parsing should be made intelligent enough so that it DOES detect various CR CR/LF LF LF/CR combinations and treat them as end-of-line, so that it can properly detect the intended last header. This way, Declude can: A) append it's own header at the proper location (not append it below the message body.) B) determining where the message content starts (so that the content can be properly scanned for Viruses) I get the feeling this issue of end-of-line detection is being made overly complicated. Declude is not a message-fixer-upper. I have enough problems with people using CISCO SMTP FIXUP that breaks everything. Declude's job is to correctly determine the header vs. content and then subject the header and content to appropriate analysis. If a message is found to be malformed
Re: [Declude.JunkMail] declude not modifying subject line
Hi David, How about today's suggestion that you not fix the message, but just interpret all of the variants of CRLF in order to place added headers with the original headers? An additional test would be nice for the weighting system, but just getting the headers where they need to be is the critical issue. I do agree that permanently fixing the issue by rewriting the message is a good thing, and best handled by the mail server, but if we can handle these exceptions and get headers in the right place, a lot of people would be happy. Darin. - Original Message - From: David Barker [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: declude.junkmail@declude.com Sent: Wednesday, November 08, 2006 4:37 PM Subject: RE: [Declude.JunkMail] declude not modifying subject line 1. I don't like to keep going in circles on this. If it was as easy as just fix it there would be no issue. Please understand that this is a lot more complex than you may realize, we are considering making the fixing of line terminators as an optional feature to be turned on/off because of a potential performance degradation of rewriting the messages. 2. Just so that you know we are a privately funded company and do not have any VC funding. 3. As per previous posts I agree that Declude needs to deal with this issue, as neither SmarterMail or Imail have addressed this, just out of curiosity has anyone contacted SmarterMail or Imail and asked them to address this issue, and if so what was their response ? David B www.declude.com -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Colbeck, Andrew Sent: Wednesday, November 08, 2006 2:03 PM To: declude.junkmail@declude.com Subject: RE: [Declude.JunkMail] declude not modifying subject line Me three! Is it done yet? No? Darn. Frankly, David, if the Declude app is going to have to rewrite the whole message anyway to insert headers, make it an optional *feature* to fix up the line terminators. Then market it as a unique feature; I understand that Venture Capitalists love their startups to have innovative features that differentiate their product in the marketplace. Meanwhile, just fix the Declude app so that inserts the header correctly as befits our reasonable expectations as set by all the other products in the marketplace. Andrew. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Darin Cox Sent: Wednesday, November 08, 2006 10:41 AM To: declude.junkmail@declude.com Subject: Re: [Declude.JunkMail] declude not modifying subject line Agreed. Put the headers where they need to be. Don't worry about fixing the message. Having this additional test could be worthwhile as well, to identify and report on mailers that are broken in this fashion. Darin. - Original Message - From: Andy Schmidt [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: declude.junkmail@declude.com Sent: Wednesday, November 08, 2006 12:03 PM Subject: RE: [Declude.JunkMail] declude not modifying subject line Hi Dave: 1. This is currently being worked on, there are several other things that need to be taken into account when doing this, for example if Declude has to rewrite all me messages in order to correct this problem there will be a hit on performance. We are also looking at some other alternatives. Any suggestions are welcome. Although I know this had been suggested - I personally don't feel that Declude needs (or even SHOULD) rewrite the message. If the message is readable by Imail, Outlook, etc. - then the sender is in luck. If not, then the fact that other software can't read the message will motivate the sender to use RFC compliant formatting. I feel all that's necessary is that Declude's end-of-line parsing should be made intelligent enough so that it DOES detect various CR CR/LF LF LF/CR combinations and treat them as end-of-line, so that it can properly detect the intended last header. This way, Declude can: A) append it's own header at the proper location (not append it below the message body.) B) determining where the message content starts (so that the content can be properly scanned for Viruses) I get the feeling this issue of end-of-line detection is being made overly complicated. Declude is not a message-fixer-upper. I have enough problems with people using CISCO SMTP FIXUP that breaks everything. Declude's job is to correctly determine the header vs. content and then subject the header and content to appropriate analysis. If a message is found to be malformed, then Declude can make it fail a Test so that the mail admin can decide to accept or reject those messages - but it's not Declude's job to artificially make an incompatible message compatible with email clients. Best Regards Andy Schmidt Phone: +1 201 934-3414 x20 (Business) Fax:+1 201 934-9206 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of David Barker Sent: Wednesday, November
RE: [Declude.JunkMail] declude not modifying subject line
Same in SmarterMail. It is interesting when you receive one of these messages to find the Declude header lines at the end of the message, and the one or two header lines that SmarterMail appends (after Declude hands the message back to SmarterMail) right where they should be at the end of the header. SmarterMail knows where the header is even after Declude has processed the message. Maybe Declude should be talking to SmarterMail to find out how they know where the header is in these malformed messages. Gary Original Message From: Andy Schmidt [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, November 08, 2006 5:12 PM To: declude.junkmail@declude.com Subject: RE: [Declude.JunkMail] declude not modifying subject line Hi, As per previous posts I agree that Declude needs to deal with this issue, as neither SmarterMail or Imail have addressed this, just out of curiosity has anyone contacted SmarterMail or Imail and asked them to address this issue, and if so what was their response I never asked them to address it because Imail prepends the Received headers at the top and appends the other headers in the correct spot, as far as I can tell. It's accepting a message, works around the non-standard line feeds and delivers the message. So there's nothing to fix for them, in my opinion. Best Regards Andy Schmidt Phone: +1 201 934-3414 x20 (Business) Fax:+1 201 934-9206 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of David Barker Sent: Wednesday, November 08, 2006 04:37 PM To: declude.junkmail@declude.com Subject: RE: [Declude.JunkMail] declude not modifying subject line 1. I don't like to keep going in circles on this. If it was as easy as just fix it there would be no issue. Please understand that this is a lot more complex than you may realize, we are considering making the fixing of line terminators as an optional feature to be turned on/off because of a potential performance degradation of rewriting the messages. 2. Just so that you know we are a privately funded company and do not have any VC funding. 3. As per previous posts I agree that Declude needs to deal with this issue, as neither SmarterMail or Imail have addressed this, just out of curiosity has anyone contacted SmarterMail or Imail and asked them to address this issue, and if so what was their response ? David B www.declude.com -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Colbeck, Andrew Sent: Wednesday, November 08, 2006 2:03 PM To: declude.junkmail@declude.com Subject: RE: [Declude.JunkMail] declude not modifying subject line Me three! Is it done yet? No? Darn. Frankly, David, if the Declude app is going to have to rewrite the whole message anyway to insert headers, make it an optional *feature* to fix up the line terminators. Then market it as a unique feature; I understand that Venture Capitalists love their startups to have innovative features that differentiate their product in the marketplace. Meanwhile, just fix the Declude app so that inserts the header correctly as befits our reasonable expectations as set by all the other products in the marketplace. Andrew. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Darin Cox Sent: Wednesday, November 08, 2006 10:41 AM To: declude.junkmail@declude.com Subject: Re: [Declude.JunkMail] declude not modifying subject line Agreed. Put the headers where they need to be. Don't worry about fixing the message. Having this additional test could be worthwhile as well, to identify and report on mailers that are broken in this fashion. Darin. - Original Message - From: Andy Schmidt [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: declude.junkmail@declude.com Sent: Wednesday, November 08, 2006 12:03 PM Subject: RE: [Declude.JunkMail] declude not modifying subject line Hi Dave: 1. This is currently being worked on, there are several other things that need to be taken into account when doing this, for example if Declude has to rewrite all me messages in order to correct this problem there will be a hit on performance. We are also looking at some other alternatives. Any suggestions are welcome. Although I know this had been suggested - I personally don't feel that Declude needs (or even SHOULD) rewrite the message. If the message is readable by Imail, Outlook, etc. - then the sender is in luck. If not, then the fact that other software can't read the message will motivate the sender to use RFC compliant formatting. I feel all that's necessary is that Declude's end-of-line parsing should be made intelligent enough so that it DOES detect various CR CR/LF LF LF/CR combinations and treat them as end-of-line, so that it can properly detect the intended last header. This way
RE: [Declude.JunkMail] declude not modifying subject line
I do not understand why you need to rewrite the message beyond what you already do? Just determine the end of headers properly then rewrite the message with your headers in the proper location. You already rewrite the message when adding headers so why would it take any longer to properly detect the end of headers. If you have two LF sequences next to each other ignoring the CR then you have the end of headers. For example if you have CRLFCRLF OR LFCRLFCR OR LFLF I have never seen a message use CR alone for an end of line. There are two LF bytes in each sequence ignore the CR bytes. Then when writing out the message with the Declude headers include the original byte sequences for each line. And the Declude lines should have the proper CRLF sequences. My two cents! Kevin Bilbee 1. I don't like to keep going in circles on this. If it was as easy as just fix it there would be no issue. Please understand that this is a lot more complex than you may realize, we are considering making the fixing of line terminators as an optional feature to be turned on/off because of a potential performance degradation of rewriting the messages. --- This E-mail came from the Declude.JunkMail mailing list. To unsubscribe, just send an E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED], and type unsubscribe Declude.JunkMail. The archives can be found at http://www.mail-archive.com.
Re: [Declude.JunkMail] declude not modifying subject line
Hi David; Thanks for the tip on the resource directory, never thought of looking there, altho would be good to restore the link in your KB as well. I would also like to respond to your reply to others in the thread in which you state that it is not productive to have to repeatedly address the same issue. I would respond as a customer by telling you that we spend a significant amount of our time addressing customer complaints. I know that ourselves, and I am sure many others are not in a position to delete email messages, but need to mark them to give users the ability to create and maintain their own filters. So our pain becomes your pain. So, if our customers are getting hammered on this issue every day and every week, and folks want to know why spam that you are identifying is not being marked as spam, I'd sure like to know an elegant answer to give them other than "it doesn't work and is being worked on". I personally get at least 10-20 of these a day, so I get 10 - 20 reminders that I am unhappy. I am not trying to beat up on you or Declude, we have been a customer for many years, and wish to remain so. I'm sure that it will be some work to solve the problem as it is a non trivial task. However, what do you expect us to do, go quietly into the night? There are two ways to stop getting questions on this subject. 1. Fix the problem and get kudos instead of complaints. or 2. Give a real expected date to address the issue and tell us where in the task stack the issue is. The we can either wait or go elsewhere if the timing on the issue is not going to work for us. Last point, on contacting Smartermail in our case, or Imail in other cases. What we would be asking them to do is not deliver messages that they, Outlook, Outlook Express, Thunderbird, and I would guess most every other mail server and email client handle somehow. Non RFC complaint mail is part of the environment, I don't think that that is really the way to go. My goal is not to discourage you, or pick on yourself and Declude, but to get the issue addressed. Wouldn't it be great to cross this item off your list :) Take care, Herb David Barker wrote: Herb, 1. This is currently being worked on, there are several other things that need to be taken into account when doing this, for example if Declude has to rewrite all me messages in order to correct this problem there will be a hit on performance. We are also looking at some other alternatives. Any suggestions are welcome. 2. This is not as simple as having these type of messages fail a test as there are too many variables in play wrt line terminators. 3. In your \Declude folder there should be a \Resources folder which has the latest config files. David B -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of Herb Guenther Sent: Wednesday, November 08, 2006 11:22 AM To: declude.junkmail@declude.com Subject: Re: [Declude.JunkMail] declude not modifying subject line Hi David; In an earlier message (below) you mentioned that you were working on adding the ability to handle these malformed messages. A couple questions. 1. When will this happen as it has been a problem for quite a while now? 2. The messages themselves are not failing any of the tests that I am using. Shouldn't we at least be able to have them fail a test and then take an action based on that? Also, I want to make sure that all of my config files are correct, and that I do not have any depreciated tests in them. When I go to the online manuals on your site, the links to the "tests" are broken, and I cannot find samples of the config files. Can you tell me where they are, and perhaps update the links in the KB so that they do point to them? Thanks, Herb David Barker wrote: Agreed Andy. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of Andy Schmidt Sent: Wednesday, November 01, 2006 10:31 AM To: declude.junkmail@declude.com Subject: RE: [Declude.JunkMail] declude not modifying subject line Hi David: Pardon me - but lets not forget that we choose to pay Declude license and maintenance fees, precisely because of its claim of being superior in detecting viruses, vulnerabilities and RFC violations that other components are known to letting through. When your business model is based on the premise that you will be closing the holes that other components leave, then Declude cannot retreat behind an argument that you are "only as defect as the other guys". Clearly, if Imail/Smartermail did act appropriately and offered all the features it should, then you wouldn't have a customer base in the first place. Best Regards Andy Schmidt Phone: +1 201 934-3414 x20 (Business) Fax:+1 201 934-9206 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of David Barker Sent: Wednesday, November 01, 2006 10:02 AM To: declude.ju
RE: [Declude.JunkMail] declude not modifying subject line
Herb, I need to clarify something here. This source of this problem is that these messages do not conform to the RFC's and are extremely broken and should not be accepted by the mail server in the first place. That is the source of the problem, Declude is showing the symptom. Have you approached SmarterMail/Imail and asked them to fix this issue, either not accept the message or apply message standardization ? What was their response ? With that said, we are working on correcting this problem because clearly the Mail server is not doing it. Secondly, there are alternatives to marking the Subject line and having the mail server take action based on the headers. You could use actions like. # MAILBOX will move the E-mail to a user's folder (no, not a Windows directory) # ROUTETO will re-route the E-mail to an alternate address # HOLD will hold the message in the spool\spam directory. David B -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Herb Guenther Sent: Tuesday, October 31, 2006 5:59 PM To: declude.junkmail@declude.com Subject: [Declude.JunkMail] declude not modifying subject line Hi All; Another week has went by and I have not heard any time schedule for fixing the issue with not modifying the message header correctly. This continues to allow hundreds of spam messages to land in our customers mailboxes every day. Again, what is required to get this fixed? We are happy to send samples, message source examples, or whatever is required. Otherwise we are going to move to a gateway filter model and just abandon declude. How did declude get in a situation where phone calls, emails, and service tickets can just be ignored because no one wants to take the bull by the horn? I know that our business does not operate that way. I assume that my disappointment is showing thru, frankly at a loss. Herb -- Herb Guenther Lanex, LLC www.lanex.com (262)789-0966x102 Office (262)780-0424 Direct This e-mail is confidential and is for the use of the intended recipient(s)only. If you are not an intended recipient please advise us of our error by return e-mail then delete this e-mail and any attached files. You may not copy, disclose or use the contents in any way. --- This E-mail came from the Declude.JunkMail mailing list. To unsubscribe, just send an E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED], and type unsubscribe Declude.JunkMail. The archives can be found at http://www.mail-archive.com. --- This E-mail came from the Declude.JunkMail mailing list. To unsubscribe, just send an E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED], and type unsubscribe Declude.JunkMail. The archives can be found at http://www.mail-archive.com.
RE: [Declude.JunkMail] declude not modifying subject line
Hi David: Pardon me - but lets not forget that we choose to pay Declude license and maintenance fees, precisely because of its claim of being superior in detecting viruses, vulnerabilities and RFC violations that other components are known to letting through. When your business model is based on the premise that you will be closing the holes that other components leave, then Declude cannot retreat behind an argument that you are only as defect as the other guys. Clearly, if Imail/Smartermail did act appropriately and offered all the features it should, then you wouldn't have a customer base in the first place. Best Regards Andy Schmidt Phone: +1 201 934-3414 x20 (Business) Fax:+1 201 934-9206 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of David Barker Sent: Wednesday, November 01, 2006 10:02 AM To: declude.junkmail@declude.com Subject: RE: [Declude.JunkMail] declude not modifying subject line Herb, I need to clarify something here. This source of this problem is that these messages do not conform to the RFC's and are extremely broken and should not be accepted by the mail server in the first place. That is the source of the problem, Declude is showing the symptom. Have you approached SmarterMail/Imail and asked them to fix this issue, either not accept the message or apply message standardization ? What was their response ? With that said, we are working on correcting this problem because clearly the Mail server is not doing it. Secondly, there are alternatives to marking the Subject line and having the mail server take action based on the headers. You could use actions like. # MAILBOX will move the E-mail to a user's folder (no, not a Windows directory) # ROUTETO will re-route the E-mail to an alternate address # HOLD will hold the message in the spool\spam directory. David B --- This E-mail came from the Declude.JunkMail mailing list. To unsubscribe, just send an E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED], and type unsubscribe Declude.JunkMail. The archives can be found at http://www.mail-archive.com.
RE: [Declude.JunkMail] declude not modifying subject line
Agreed Andy. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Andy Schmidt Sent: Wednesday, November 01, 2006 10:31 AM To: declude.junkmail@declude.com Subject: RE: [Declude.JunkMail] declude not modifying subject line Hi David: Pardon me - but lets not forget that we choose to pay Declude license and maintenance fees, precisely because of its claim of being superior in detecting viruses, vulnerabilities and RFC violations that other components are known to letting through. When your business model is based on the premise that you will be closing the holes that other components leave, then Declude cannot retreat behind an argument that you are only as defect as the other guys. Clearly, if Imail/Smartermail did act appropriately and offered all the features it should, then you wouldn't have a customer base in the first place. Best Regards Andy Schmidt Phone: +1 201 934-3414 x20 (Business) Fax:+1 201 934-9206 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of David Barker Sent: Wednesday, November 01, 2006 10:02 AM To: declude.junkmail@declude.com Subject: RE: [Declude.JunkMail] declude not modifying subject line Herb, I need to clarify something here. This source of this problem is that these messages do not conform to the RFC's and are extremely broken and should not be accepted by the mail server in the first place. That is the source of the problem, Declude is showing the symptom. Have you approached SmarterMail/Imail and asked them to fix this issue, either not accept the message or apply message standardization ? What was their response ? With that said, we are working on correcting this problem because clearly the Mail server is not doing it. Secondly, there are alternatives to marking the Subject line and having the mail server take action based on the headers. You could use actions like. # MAILBOX will move the E-mail to a user's folder (no, not a Windows directory) # ROUTETO will re-route the E-mail to an alternate address # HOLD will hold the message in the spool\spam directory. David B --- This E-mail came from the Declude.JunkMail mailing list. To unsubscribe, just send an E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED], and type unsubscribe Declude.JunkMail. The archives can be found at http://www.mail-archive.com. --- This E-mail came from the Declude.JunkMail mailing list. To unsubscribe, just send an E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED], and type unsubscribe Declude.JunkMail. The archives can be found at http://www.mail-archive.com.
Re: [Declude.JunkMail] declude not modifying subject line
Hi David; First, I'd like to thank you for your response, it is the first that I have had and I really appreciate it. I realize that the issue is the either accidentally or purposely malformed messages. I would assume that there is a whole spectrum of message rfc compliance out there, and everyone has to draw the line somewhere. In an ideal world we could apply some very exact rules and just say too bad, so sad and reject the messages. However customers would view this as I did not get my email and in effect a false positive. So, outright rejection would not be the solution I think. However, to answer your question, we have not approached smartermail on the issue as that is not our spam tool vendor. I think that any message that an email client can display should be viewed as compliant enough from a real world perspective, even tho I agree that philosophically that is not the way it should be. Do you have an idea as to what the time frame for an update to this will be? Take care, Herb David Barker wrote: Herb, I need to clarify something here. This source of this problem is that these messages do not conform to the RFC's and are extremely broken and should not be accepted by the mail server in the first place. That is the source of the problem, Declude is showing the symptom. Have you approached SmarterMail/Imail and asked them to fix this issue, either not accept the message or apply message standardization ? What was their response ? With that said, we are working on correcting this problem because clearly the Mail server is not doing it. Secondly, there are alternatives to marking the Subject line and having the mail server take action based on the headers. You could use actions like. # MAILBOX will move the E-mail to a user's folder (no, not a Windows directory) # ROUTETO will re-route the E-mail to an alternate address # HOLD will hold the message in the spool\spam directory. David B -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Herb Guenther Sent: Tuesday, October 31, 2006 5:59 PM To: declude.junkmail@declude.com Subject: [Declude.JunkMail] declude not modifying subject line Hi All; Another week has went by and I have not heard any time schedule for fixing the issue with not modifying the message header correctly. This continues to allow hundreds of spam messages to land in our customers mailboxes every day. Again, what is required to get this fixed? We are happy to send samples, message source examples, or whatever is required. Otherwise we are going to move to a gateway filter model and just abandon declude. How did declude get in a situation where phone calls, emails, and service tickets can just be ignored because no one wants to take the bull by the horn? I know that our business does not operate that way. I assume that my disappointment is showing thru, frankly at a loss. Herb -- Herb Guenther Lanex, LLC www.lanex.com (262)789-0966x102 Office (262)780-0424 Direct This e-mail is confidential and is for the use of the intended recipient(s)only. If you are not an intended recipient please advise us of our error by return e-mail then delete this e-mail and any attached files. You may not copy, disclose or use the contents in any way. --- This E-mail came from the Declude.JunkMail mailing list. To unsubscribe, just send an E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED], and type unsubscribe Declude.JunkMail. The archives can be found at http://www.mail-archive.com. --- This E-mail came from the Declude.JunkMail mailing list. To unsubscribe, just send an E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED], and type unsubscribe Declude.JunkMail. The archives can be found at http://www.mail-archive.com. -- Herb Guenther Lanex, LLC www.lanex.com (262)789-0966x102 Office (262)780-0424 Direct This e-mail is confidential and is for the use of the intended recipient(s)only. If you are not an intended recipient please advise us of our error by return e-mail then delete this e-mail and any attached files. You may not copy, disclose or use the contents in any way. --- This E-mail came from the Declude.JunkMail mailing list. To unsubscribe, just send an E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED], and type unsubscribe Declude.JunkMail. The archives can be found at http://www.mail-archive.com.
Re: [Declude.JunkMail] declude not modifying subject line
I agree. That and the fact that RFCs are non-enforceable standards. There are many cases of RFCs not being followed. We can't just decide which non-RFC situations to handle and which not. We also cannot force all non-standard mailers to adapt to our requirements. We must accept mail and process it appropriately, since we cannot control the sending parameters. This is especially true when all it entails on our part is handling an additional case while parsing the message. Darin. - Original Message - From: Andy Schmidt [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: declude.junkmail@declude.com Sent: Wednesday, November 01, 2006 10:30 AM Subject: RE: [Declude.JunkMail] declude not modifying subject line Hi David: Pardon me - but lets not forget that we choose to pay Declude license and maintenance fees, precisely because of its claim of being superior in detecting viruses, vulnerabilities and RFC violations that other components are known to letting through. When your business model is based on the premise that you will be closing the holes that other components leave, then Declude cannot retreat behind an argument that you are only as defect as the other guys. Clearly, if Imail/Smartermail did act appropriately and offered all the features it should, then you wouldn't have a customer base in the first place. Best Regards Andy Schmidt Phone: +1 201 934-3414 x20 (Business) Fax:+1 201 934-9206 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of David Barker Sent: Wednesday, November 01, 2006 10:02 AM To: declude.junkmail@declude.com Subject: RE: [Declude.JunkMail] declude not modifying subject line Herb, I need to clarify something here. This source of this problem is that these messages do not conform to the RFC's and are extremely broken and should not be accepted by the mail server in the first place. That is the source of the problem, Declude is showing the symptom. Have you approached SmarterMail/Imail and asked them to fix this issue, either not accept the message or apply message standardization ? What was their response ? With that said, we are working on correcting this problem because clearly the Mail server is not doing it. Secondly, there are alternatives to marking the Subject line and having the mail server take action based on the headers. You could use actions like. # MAILBOX will move the E-mail to a user's folder (no, not a Windows directory) # ROUTETO will re-route the E-mail to an alternate address # HOLD will hold the message in the spool\spam directory. David B --- This E-mail came from the Declude.JunkMail mailing list. To unsubscribe, just send an E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED], and type unsubscribe Declude.JunkMail. The archives can be found at http://www.mail-archive.com. --- This E-mail came from the Declude.JunkMail mailing list. To unsubscribe, just send an E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED], and type unsubscribe Declude.JunkMail. The archives can be found at http://www.mail-archive.com.
[Declude.JunkMail] declude not modifying subject line
Hi All; Another week has went by and I have not heard any time schedule for fixing the issue with not modifying the message header correctly. This continues to allow hundreds of spam messages to land in our customers mailboxes every day. Again, what is required to get this fixed? We are happy to send samples, message source examples, or whatever is required. Otherwise we are going to move to a gateway filter model and just abandon declude. How did declude get in a situation where phone calls, emails, and service tickets can just be ignored because no one wants to take the bull by the horn? I know that our business does not operate that way. I assume that my disappointment is showing thru, frankly at a loss. Herb -- Herb Guenther Lanex, LLC www.lanex.com (262)789-0966x102 Office (262)780-0424 Direct This e-mail is confidential and is for the use of the intended recipient(s)only. If you are not an intended recipient please advise us of our error by return e-mail then delete this e-mail and any attached files. You may not copy, disclose or use the contents in any way. --- This E-mail came from the Declude.JunkMail mailing list. To unsubscribe, just send an E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED], and type unsubscribe Declude.JunkMail. The archives can be found at http://www.mail-archive.com.
