Re: [DUG]: Hard drive serial Number
Kerry, agree, which is why we dont use any of these schemes - they penalise your paid-up user. That doesnt make sense to us. Basically, you have to accept that some illegal copies will be made and used. Depending on the type of software, there are other schemes. In ours, we encourage them to copy the software. The catch is that the copy willcontinue to stamp each invoice with the legal owners name. If they try to fiddle with that, then they are unable to add more clients. We have had cases where the guy with a copy was quite happy to snip off the offending company name from each invoice - but he got sick of it after 6 mths and bought the s/w. :-) Rohit == CFL - Computer Fanatics Ltd. 21 Barry's Point Road, AKL, New Zealand PH(649) 489-2280 FX(649) 489-2290 email [EMAIL PROTECTED] or [EMAIL PROTECTED] == --- New Zealand Delphi Users group - Delphi List - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Website: http://www.delphi.org.nz
RE: [DUG]: Hard drive serial Number
I've also been using the HD serial number to try and stop people making illegal copies of my code, and also encountered batches of machines with the same number. Does anyone know of a foolproof way of uniquely identifying a machine so that code can be locked to only work on that machine? == Tom Munro Glass ++ | E-mail:| | Internet: [EMAIL PROTECTED] | | Web sites: | | TMG CONSULTANCY:http://www.tmgcon.com | | Tewkesbury Web: http://www.tmgcon.com/tewksweb | ++ -Original Message- From: Myles Penlington [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Tuesday, August 31, 1999 12:22 AM To: Multiple recipients of list delphi Subject: RE: [DUG]: Hard drive serial Number I read just recently that the new Pentium III chips have their own unique serial numbers. -Original Message- From: Matthew Comb [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Tuesday, August 31, 1999 11:04 AM To: Multiple recipients of list delphi Subject:Re: [DUG]: Hard drive serial Number Yes I have found this also. However the purpose of our protection was to stop people form outside the company using our software. The chances that their hard disk has the same serial number as tha machine that they copied from is still pretty slim. Matt. - Original Message - From: Wilfred Verkley [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Multiple recipients of list delphi [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, August 31, 1999 10:53 AM Subject: RE: [DUG]: Hard drive serial Number HD Serial numbers arnt always unique I think. Batches of hard-drives may have the same number, you may discover this when you buy a batch of computers from a supplier. This caused problems with a copy-protection scheme I developed once. One registration key would work on several machines. -Original Message- From: Matthew Comb [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Tuesday, 31 August 1999 10:36 To: Multiple recipients of list delphi Subject: Re: [DUG]: Hard drive serial Number Just as an add to the HD Serial topic. I used this with great success in making sure that our software was only run on our machines. I doctored around with the serial number and recorded it in the registry and then when the software runs I ran the same algorithm and compared it to the value in the registry, Shutting the machine down if it was not the same value. The only problem I came across was that I found one machine with a hard disk that had a hyphen '-' in the serial number and thus was not reported as an integer - screwed my algorithm up (Very sloppy programming). Just thought you might want to be aware of this. Matt. - Original Message - From: Chris Crowe [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Multiple recipients of list delphi [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, August 31, 1999 10:20 AM Subject: RE: [DUG]: Hard drive serial Number function GetHDSerialNumber: LongInt; {$IFDEF WIN32} var pdw : pDWord; mc, fl : dword; {$ENDIF} begin {$IfDef WIN32} New(pdw); GetVolumeInformation(nil,nil,0,pdw,mc,fl,nil,0); Result := pdw^; dispose(pdw); {$ELSE} Result := GetWinFlags; {$ENDIF} end; Chris -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, August 31, 1999 9:33 AM To: Multiple recipients of list delphi Subject: [DUG]: Hard drive serial Number Anyone know off the top of there head the function for getting the hard drive serial number of a win9x computer? James -- - New Zealand Delphi Users group - Delphi List - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Website: http://www.delphi.org.nz -- - New Zealand Delphi Users group - Delphi List - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Website: http://www.delphi.org.nz -- - New Zealand Delphi Users group - Delphi List - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Website: http://www.delphi.org.nz -- - New Zealand Delphi Users group - Delphi List - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Website: http
Re: [DUG]: Hard drive serial Number
I went around this last year, and several machine ID schemes came up, all with shortcomings. HDD ID - great until the drive is swapped (or another drive has the same ID) Network card ID - apparently this is definitely a unique Serial number but it requires a network card in the PC CPU ID - this was not unique, giving only the batch details of the chip edition. System footprint - a combination of HDD ID, Ram size, cpu id, and other system specific data. This is 'fragile' because any upgrade might cause the check to fail. Hardware Dongle - expensive I chose the HDD ID, it is at least a close free approximation of perfect. Otherwise the network card is cheaper and as foolproof as the dongle. Leo Ramakers Tom Munro Glass wrote: I've also been using the HD serial number to try and stop people making illegal copies of my code, and also encountered batches of machines with the same number. Does anyone know of a foolproof way of uniquely identifying a machine so that code can be locked to only work on that machine? --- New Zealand Delphi Users group - Delphi List - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Website: http://www.delphi.org.nz
RE: [DUG]: Hard drive serial Number
-Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Tom Munro Glass Sent: Tuesday, 31 August 1999 18:41 To: Multiple recipients of list delphi Subject: RE: [DUG]: Hard drive serial Number I've also been using the HD serial number to try and stop people making illegal copies of my code, and also encountered batches of machines with the same number. It may be that in a corporate environment you have encountered machines that have been imaged from common disk images - presumably the serial number is stored somewhere in the disk directory by MSDOS. I assume you mean the number that comes up when you do a dir listing. Does anyone know of a foolproof way of uniquely identifying a machine so that code can be locked to only work on that machine? This is why Intel put an ID into the P-III and it is something that from memory has been talked about for many years for the same reason. snip Patrick Dunford, Christchurch, NZ http://patrick.dunford.com/ --- New Zealand Delphi Users group - Delphi List - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Website: http://www.delphi.org.nz
RE: [DUG]: Hard drive serial Number
| Network card ID - apparently this is definitely a unique Serial | number but it requires a network card in the PC Are you talking about the MAC address? I so, this is no longer unique (well it must be within any one network of course) because many of the clone cards allow the MAC address to be changed. | Hardware Dongle - expensive Not really - in the range of $15-30 in quantity. We bring them in from Aladdin for the security software that we sell in most countries but lease in the USA. Aladdin are most helpful to deal with too. The bottom line is of course, a bit of time and a good debugger and anything can be broken. --- New Zealand Delphi Users group - Delphi List - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Website: http://www.delphi.org.nz
RE: [DUG]: Hard drive serial Number
Except the disable is in the bios - so, in theory at least, you could turn it on again. Max -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Aaron Scott-Boddendijk Sent: Tuesday, 31 August 1999 11:25 To: Multiple recipients of list delphi Subject: Re: [DUG]: Hard drive serial Number I read just recently that the new Pentium III chips have their own unique serial numbers. Old news I'm afraid... It's also a feature that the user is supposed to be able to disable (and most will disable by default I expect)... -- Aaron Scott-Boddendijk Jump Productions (07) 838-3371 Voice (07) 838-3372 Fax --- New Zealand Delphi Users group - Delphi List - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Website: http://www.delphi.org.nz --- New Zealand Delphi Users group - Delphi List - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Website: http://www.delphi.org.nz
Re: [DUG]: Hard drive serial Number
--- Leo Ramakers [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: ...the hard disk ID is a valid copy protect scheme. If I buy a new hard-disk, will your software stop working? Will I have to reinstall it, or would I have to get a new key from you? These things would bug me, as a consumer. Cheers, Kerry S === -- Systems Engineer, Inprise NZ. [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com.au address at http://mail.yahoo.com.au or your free @yahoo.co.nz address at http://mail.yahoo.co.nz --- New Zealand Delphi Users group - Delphi List - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Website: http://www.delphi.org.nz
RE: [DUG]: Hard drive serial Number
There has been a fair bit of discussion on the group about _how_ to do copy protection. To me the biggest question is whether to do it or not. I don't suggest giving your software away, but simply having the name of the company that purchased the software written on all output always on screen might be a better approach. In the past I worked for a company that owned an accounting package (I won't mention names), that had environment security (disk ID's at least) built in. We ran it off a Novell server, and whenever we upgraded the server (which was fairly often - I kept added disks tweaking volume layout), then we had to _pay_ for a support call to get a new security code. Given that I could have just stolen the software, told them I had replaced the disk got a new code anyway, I really did not see the point. I can't imagine what would happen with software that checked Disk ID's was loaded onto a NT2000 server running a Hierarchical Storage Management System. Grant Black Software Developer SmartMove (NZ) Ltd Phone: +64 9 361-0219 extn 719 Fax : +64 9 361-0211 Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] --- New Zealand Delphi Users group - Delphi List - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Website: http://www.delphi.org.nz
Re: [DUG]: Hard drive serial Number
I use MySQl for copy protection because my apps are internet related. Still need the hard drive serial number thou to decide if a computer that is loging in is a different (and disallowed) computer than the one already logged in or if it is the same computer relogging in becasue of conection loss, crash or power loss. This methord of copyprotection I find is very hard to hack and if it is hacked it is easy to spot. No good without the required connection thou. James --- New Zealand Delphi Users group - Delphi List - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Website: http://www.delphi.org.nz
Re: [DUG]: Hard drive serial Number
...the hard disk ID is a valid copy protect scheme. If I buy a new hard-disk, will your software stop working? Will I have to reinstall it, or would I have to get a new key from you? assuming you are replacing the hard drive that hosted the software, of course you will have to reinstall the software, and yes you will have to get a new key from me. I dont figure that the average consumer will encounter this loop, and I figure that the consumer is expecting a lot of work reinstalling his system on the new drive anyway. I am not useful to the consumer if I went broke because my software got greycopied. These things would bug me, as a consumer. How often do you or you clients replace hard drives? Leo --- New Zealand Delphi Users group - Delphi List - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Website: http://www.delphi.org.nz
Re: [DUG]: Hard drive serial Number
--- Leo Ramakers [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: ...the hard disk ID is a valid copy protect scheme. If I buy a new hard-disk, will your software stop working? Will I have to reinstall it, or would I have to get a new key from you? assuming you are replacing the hard drive that hosted the software, of course you will have to reinstall the software It needed be "of course". Personally I prefer applications that just give me an executable I can run. Makes life easier when the registry gets hosed too :-) and yes you will have to get a new key from me. That's not going to be much fun. Especially if you disappear and I'm left with software that no longer works. I dont figure that the average consumer will encounter this loop, and I figure that the consumer is expecting a lot of work reinstalling his system on the new drive anyway. If I took my old machine into a PC shop they'd clone the old disk over to the new disk without much trouble. They wouldn't need to reinstall everything. I am not useful to the consumer if I went broke because my software got greycopied. "greycopied" ? These things would bug me, as a consumer. How often do you or you clients replace hard drives? About every 18 months to 2 years. Cheers, Kerry S === -- Systems Engineer, Inprise NZ. [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com.au address at http://mail.yahoo.com.au or your free @yahoo.co.nz address at http://mail.yahoo.co.nz --- New Zealand Delphi Users group - Delphi List - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Website: http://www.delphi.org.nz
RE: [DUG]: Hard drive serial Number
GetVolumeInformation, in win32.hlp -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Tuesday, 31 August 1999 09:33 To: Multiple recipients of list delphi Subject: [DUG]: Hard drive serial Number Anyone know off the top of there head the function for getting the hard drive serial number of a win9x computer? James --- New Zealand Delphi Users group - Delphi List - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Website: http://www.delphi.org.nz --- New Zealand Delphi Users group - Delphi List - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Website: http://www.delphi.org.nz
RE: [DUG]: Hard drive serial Number
function GetHDSerialNumber: LongInt; {$IFDEF WIN32} var pdw : pDWord; mc, fl : dword; {$ENDIF} begin {$IfDef WIN32} New(pdw); GetVolumeInformation(nil,nil,0,pdw,mc,fl,nil,0); Result := pdw^; dispose(pdw); {$ELSE} Result := GetWinFlags; {$ENDIF} end; Chris -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, August 31, 1999 9:33 AM To: Multiple recipients of list delphi Subject: [DUG]: Hard drive serial Number Anyone know off the top of there head the function for getting the hard drive serial number of a win9x computer? James --- New Zealand Delphi Users group - Delphi List - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Website: http://www.delphi.org.nz --- New Zealand Delphi Users group - Delphi List - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Website: http://www.delphi.org.nz
Re: [DUG]: Hard drive serial Number
Just as an add to the HD Serial topic. I used this with great success in making sure that our software was only run on our machines. I doctored around with the serial number and recorded it in the registry and then when the software runs I ran the same algorithm and compared it to the value in the registry, Shutting the machine down if it was not the same value. The only problem I came across was that I found one machine with a hard disk that had a hyphen '-' in the serial number and thus was not reported as an integer - screwed my algorithm up (Very sloppy programming). Just thought you might want to be aware of this. Matt. - Original Message - From: Chris Crowe [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Multiple recipients of list delphi [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, August 31, 1999 10:20 AM Subject: RE: [DUG]: Hard drive serial Number function GetHDSerialNumber: LongInt; {$IFDEF WIN32} var pdw : pDWord; mc, fl : dword; {$ENDIF} begin {$IfDef WIN32} New(pdw); GetVolumeInformation(nil,nil,0,pdw,mc,fl,nil,0); Result := pdw^; dispose(pdw); {$ELSE} Result := GetWinFlags; {$ENDIF} end; Chris -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, August 31, 1999 9:33 AM To: Multiple recipients of list delphi Subject: [DUG]: Hard drive serial Number Anyone know off the top of there head the function for getting the hard drive serial number of a win9x computer? James -- - New Zealand Delphi Users group - Delphi List - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Website: http://www.delphi.org.nz -- - New Zealand Delphi Users group - Delphi List - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Website: http://www.delphi.org.nz --- New Zealand Delphi Users group - Delphi List - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Website: http://www.delphi.org.nz
RE: [DUG]: Hard drive serial Number
HD Serial numbers arnt always unique I think. Batches of hard-drives may have the same number, you may discover this when you buy a batch of computers from a supplier. This caused problems with a copy-protection scheme I developed once. One registration key would work on several machines. -Original Message- From: Matthew Comb [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Tuesday, 31 August 1999 10:36 To: Multiple recipients of list delphi Subject: Re: [DUG]: Hard drive serial Number Just as an add to the HD Serial topic. I used this with great success in making sure that our software was only run on our machines. I doctored around with the serial number and recorded it in the registry and then when the software runs I ran the same algorithm and compared it to the value in the registry, Shutting the machine down if it was not the same value. The only problem I came across was that I found one machine with a hard disk that had a hyphen '-' in the serial number and thus was not reported as an integer - screwed my algorithm up (Very sloppy programming). Just thought you might want to be aware of this. Matt. - Original Message - From: Chris Crowe [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Multiple recipients of list delphi [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, August 31, 1999 10:20 AM Subject: RE: [DUG]: Hard drive serial Number function GetHDSerialNumber: LongInt; {$IFDEF WIN32} var pdw : pDWord; mc, fl : dword; {$ENDIF} begin {$IfDef WIN32} New(pdw); GetVolumeInformation(nil,nil,0,pdw,mc,fl,nil,0); Result := pdw^; dispose(pdw); {$ELSE} Result := GetWinFlags; {$ENDIF} end; Chris -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, August 31, 1999 9:33 AM To: Multiple recipients of list delphi Subject: [DUG]: Hard drive serial Number Anyone know off the top of there head the function for getting the hard drive serial number of a win9x computer? James -- - New Zealand Delphi Users group - Delphi List - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Website: http://www.delphi.org.nz -- - New Zealand Delphi Users group - Delphi List - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Website: http://www.delphi.org.nz --- New Zealand Delphi Users group - Delphi List - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Website: http://www.delphi.org.nz --- New Zealand Delphi Users group - Delphi List - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Website: http://www.delphi.org.nz
Re: [DUG]: Hard drive serial Number
Yes I have found this also. However the purpose of our protection was to stop people form outside the company using our software. The chances that their hard disk has the same serial number as tha machine that they copied from is still pretty slim. Matt. - Original Message - From: Wilfred Verkley [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Multiple recipients of list delphi [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, August 31, 1999 10:53 AM Subject: RE: [DUG]: Hard drive serial Number HD Serial numbers arnt always unique I think. Batches of hard-drives may have the same number, you may discover this when you buy a batch of computers from a supplier. This caused problems with a copy-protection scheme I developed once. One registration key would work on several machines. -Original Message- From: Matthew Comb [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Tuesday, 31 August 1999 10:36 To: Multiple recipients of list delphi Subject: Re: [DUG]: Hard drive serial Number Just as an add to the HD Serial topic. I used this with great success in making sure that our software was only run on our machines. I doctored around with the serial number and recorded it in the registry and then when the software runs I ran the same algorithm and compared it to the value in the registry, Shutting the machine down if it was not the same value. The only problem I came across was that I found one machine with a hard disk that had a hyphen '-' in the serial number and thus was not reported as an integer - screwed my algorithm up (Very sloppy programming). Just thought you might want to be aware of this. Matt. - Original Message - From: Chris Crowe [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Multiple recipients of list delphi [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, August 31, 1999 10:20 AM Subject: RE: [DUG]: Hard drive serial Number function GetHDSerialNumber: LongInt; {$IFDEF WIN32} var pdw : pDWord; mc, fl : dword; {$ENDIF} begin {$IfDef WIN32} New(pdw); GetVolumeInformation(nil,nil,0,pdw,mc,fl,nil,0); Result := pdw^; dispose(pdw); {$ELSE} Result := GetWinFlags; {$ENDIF} end; Chris -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, August 31, 1999 9:33 AM To: Multiple recipients of list delphi Subject: [DUG]: Hard drive serial Number Anyone know off the top of there head the function for getting the hard drive serial number of a win9x computer? James -- - New Zealand Delphi Users group - Delphi List - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Website: http://www.delphi.org.nz -- - New Zealand Delphi Users group - Delphi List - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Website: http://www.delphi.org.nz -- - New Zealand Delphi Users group - Delphi List - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Website: http://www.delphi.org.nz -- - New Zealand Delphi Users group - Delphi List - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Website: http://www.delphi.org.nz --- New Zealand Delphi Users group - Delphi List - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Website: http://www.delphi.org.nz
RE: [DUG]: Hard drive serial Number
I read just recently that the new Pentium III chips have their own unique serial numbers. -Original Message- From: Matthew Comb [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Tuesday, August 31, 1999 11:04 AM To: Multiple recipients of list delphi Subject: Re: [DUG]: Hard drive serial Number Yes I have found this also. However the purpose of our protection was to stop people form outside the company using our software. The chances that their hard disk has the same serial number as tha machine that they copied from is still pretty slim. Matt. - Original Message - From: Wilfred Verkley [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Multiple recipients of list delphi [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, August 31, 1999 10:53 AM Subject: RE: [DUG]: Hard drive serial Number HD Serial numbers arnt always unique I think. Batches of hard-drives may have the same number, you may discover this when you buy a batch of computers from a supplier. This caused problems with a copy-protection scheme I developed once. One registration key would work on several machines. -Original Message- From: Matthew Comb [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Tuesday, 31 August 1999 10:36 To: Multiple recipients of list delphi Subject: Re: [DUG]: Hard drive serial Number Just as an add to the HD Serial topic. I used this with great success in making sure that our software was only run on our machines. I doctored around with the serial number and recorded it in the registry and then when the software runs I ran the same algorithm and compared it to the value in the registry, Shutting the machine down if it was not the same value. The only problem I came across was that I found one machine with a hard disk that had a hyphen '-' in the serial number and thus was not reported as an integer - screwed my algorithm up (Very sloppy programming). Just thought you might want to be aware of this. Matt. - Original Message - From: Chris Crowe [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Multiple recipients of list delphi [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, August 31, 1999 10:20 AM Subject: RE: [DUG]: Hard drive serial Number function GetHDSerialNumber: LongInt; {$IFDEF WIN32} var pdw : pDWord; mc, fl : dword; {$ENDIF} begin {$IfDef WIN32} New(pdw); GetVolumeInformation(nil,nil,0,pdw,mc,fl,nil,0); Result := pdw^; dispose(pdw); {$ELSE} Result := GetWinFlags; {$ENDIF} end; Chris -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, August 31, 1999 9:33 AM To: Multiple recipients of list delphi Subject: [DUG]: Hard drive serial Number Anyone know off the top of there head the function for getting the hard drive serial number of a win9x computer? James -- - New Zealand Delphi Users group - Delphi List - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Website: http://www.delphi.org.nz -- - New Zealand Delphi Users group - Delphi List - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Website: http://www.delphi.org.nz -- - New Zealand Delphi Users group - Delphi List - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Website: http://www.delphi.org.nz -- - New Zealand Delphi Users group - Delphi List - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Website: http://www.delphi.org.nz -- - New Zealand Delphi Users group - Delphi List - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Website: http://www.delphi.org.nz --- New Zealand Delphi Users group - Delphi List - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Website: http://www.delphi.org.nz
Re: [DUG]: Hard drive serial Number
I read just recently that the new Pentium III chips have their own unique serial numbers. Old news I'm afraid... It's also a feature that the user is supposed to be able to disable (and most will disable by default I expect)... -- Aaron Scott-Boddendijk Jump Productions (07) 838-3371 Voice (07) 838-3372 Fax --- New Zealand Delphi Users group - Delphi List - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Website: http://www.delphi.org.nz