[libreoffice-design] Re: Impress Mode Toolbar

[V Stuart Foote]

Michel RENON-2 wrote
> ...
> [resent to the ml]
> Currently, some design changes are merged asap in master, just because 
> the code is ok.
> Then during alpha or beta, some user feedback is coming, but it's 
> already too late to make changes in code...
> 
> 
> Why not working on those changes in specific branches ?
> and take time to have user feedback and iterate.
> 
> And only when everything is ok (ui, code), it is merged in master with 
> the usual process

Maybe ask the remaining AOO folks how that development model is working for
them?

IMHO this would be a horrible regression from a developers perspective. It
would kill the project's timed release ethos, and stifle innovative code
development and ongoing refactoring of our long code tail.  It would be
detrimental to the long term health of the project and likely ultimately
kill it.

The truth is the success of LibreOffice has come in large part from exactly
the welcoming meritocracy in development that has emerged.  Few question it
is a better product than the alternatives, but it keeps its relevance
because of the development model and functional cross platform support.

Are there hicups--design, UI and UX--absolutely! That keeps it fun for the
developers.  

Would it be better if we had more hands--absolutely!  Simply put, in
addition to needing more developers and designers (of all flavors) the
project needs to attract more folks to QA and encourage the entire user
community to follow development and *test early and often* in the cycle. 
Sophi does a great job guiding folks with MozTrap test cases, but it hardly
gets touched (at just 4% for 5.1.0).

But, would quality of LibreOffice improve if we revert to a "release when
ready" model-- IMHO, not at all!



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Re: [libreoffice-design] Re: Impress Mode Toolbar

[Heiko Tietze]

On Thursday, 14 January 2016 11:32:59 CET Michel RENON wrote:
> You said very important things !
> That's the core problem : currently, there is no user feedback.
> 
> The design team is very motivated to create good UI, but we (as I
> participated in the design team) have the "ivory tower" syndrom :
> we just talk between 3 to 10 people, mostly some people heavily
> involved in LibreOffice or software development.
> We never have the feedback from 'lambda/basic' users.
> Designing a software is much much more than doing IRC or hangouts and
> talking about one mockup. It should have "use cases, prototypes, user
> testing and iterate". (it's not a rant against the design team, it's a
> constructive critic or an enhancement request)
> I talked about that (and much more already 3 years ago in my blog [1]
> 
> Few days ago, I started the idea of "eating our own dog food", that is
> design team should use LO to create mockups, and more if possible.
> It would be a first step in having user feedback : some internal
> feedback, but design team should be in front of real usability problems
> in LO.
> As a regular user of LO, I'm often angry because of such details that
> reduce/kill my productivity in my daily job.

That's not fair. We do user survey for years. For instance results from 5400 
participants about what motifs people have to use Libreoffice [1,2,3,4,5]. We 
run numerous tests on icon conspicuousness [7,8,9,10,11,12]. More recently we 
asked about how users want the toolbars to get configured [13,14,15]. 
Most considerations are done transparently, for instance about customization 
[16], change tracking [17], indexes and tables [18], CMIS [19], Special 
Characters [20], Shapes [21]. Charts [22], Tables Styles [23], Area Fill [24].
Our work is well-founded with the HIG [25,26,27] based on the aforementioned 
own surveys as well as data from the old AOO user tracking, reports on the 
web, talks to everyone over the world (nothing that Jay changed at the tolbar 
was done for no reason - a blog post about that is in preparation). Our work 
is transparent, democratic, and user-centered. Of course not all ideas are 
published, like the considerations about dogfooding - the posting was rejected 
since we do not have any developer imporoving Draw and want to let sleeping 
dog lie. Actually the same was true for the extended toolbar - this posting 
and many more from the design team could be added here as well.
And to give this a compromise drive: I understand your posting as an appeal to 
not reduce the effort in our work. I would be the last who objects. Surely we 
can improve on many aspects. For instance in respect to the communication, as 
Sophie said. On the other hand, our latest reports [23,24] had only a few 
comments. UX is nothing what comes out of the blue, and when we talk many days 
again and again about the same stuff it shows how delicate the topic is. Not 
every user wants to dive that deep into the mud.

[1] User Survey results #1 
http://user-prompt.com/libreoffice-user-research-results-vol-1/
[2] User Survey results #2 
http://user-prompt.com/libreoffice-user-research-results-vol-2-2/
[3] User Survey results #3 
http://user-prompt.com/libreoffice-user-research-results-vol-3/
[4] User Survey results #4 
http://user-prompt.com/libreoffice-user-research-results-vol-4/
[5] User Survey results Summary 
http://user-prompt.com/libreoffice-user-research-summary/
[6] More is worse: About Detail in Icons 
http://user-prompt.com/more-is-worse-about-detail-in-icons/
[7] What is a pencil used for? http://user-prompt.com/what-is-a-pencil-used-for/
[8] Can a direction in time be displayed by spatial signs? 
http://user-prompt.com/can-a-direction-in-time-be-displayed-by-spatial-signs/
[9] Where does the Navigator lead you? 
http://user-prompt.com/where-does-the-navigator-lead-you/
[10] How abstract can an icon be? About Copy & Paste in LibreOffice 
http://user-prompt.com/how-abstract-can-an-icon-be-about-copy-paste-in-libreoffice/
[11] Semiotics in Usability: Guidelines for the Development of Icon Metaphors 
http://user-prompt.com/semiotics-in-usability-guidelines-for-the-development-of-icon-metaphors/
[12] Quick wins: Conclusions of the Libreoffice icon test 
http://user-prompt.com/conclusions-of-the-libreoffice-icon-test/
[13] Standard toolbar in Libreoffice 
http://user-prompt.com/standard-toolbar-in-libreoffice/
[14] Results of survey about Libreoffice Calc?s toolbar configuration http://
user-prompt.com/results-of-survey-about-libreoffice-calcs-toolbar-configuration/
15] How people utilize Libreoffice Impress 
http://user-prompt.com/how-people-utilize-libreoffice-impress/
[16] How to make Libreoffice Customization usable 
http://user-prompt.com/how-to-make-libreoffice-customization-usable/
[17] Tracking changes with Libreoffice 
http://user-prompt.com/tracking-changes-with-libreoffice/
[18] Libreoffice Design Session: Entries at Indexes and Tables 

Re: [libreoffice-design] Re: Impress Mode Toolbar

[Cor Nouws]

V Stuart Foote wrote on 13-01-16 21:39:

> None the less, the developer who implemented the code got to decide based on
> input in IRC, design meetings, gerrit feedback, and related issues filed in
> BZ (see  tdf#87672
>    for example). 

It's not fully clear to me how the discussion in that issue found it's
way in the current implementation, but .. ;)

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Re: [libreoffice-design] Re: Impress Mode Toolbar

[Italo Vignoli]

On 14/01/16 10:59, Sophie wrote:

> When working on a slide desk last week, I didn't found it difficult to
> switch in the View menu, what annoy me is that the choice is not retained.

I cannot consider myself as a normal user, so the fact that I am able to
switch without issues (once I have found how to switch) does not mean
that basic users will be able to do the same.

I am working as an Impress trainer for migrations in Italy, so I know
rather well basic Impress users, and I know the disasters basic users
can generate without even realizing that they are doing it wrong.

I am especially worried by basic users. Impress is not the best piece of
software around for the habits of basic users switching from MS
PowerPoint, and making it worse is not the right solution.

> Would it be possible to discuss this during the next meeting?

I am happy to be in the meeting, and to contribute to a solution to
improve Impress UI.

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AW: [libreoffice-design] Re: Impress Mode Toolbar

[Samuel Mehrbrodt]

May I suggest that we show the Tab bar by default in for now and think about 
further improvements in the next releases?
I know the Tab bar is not ideal, but neither is the mode selector drop down.

I understand Italo that a quick switch between normal and slide sorter mode is 
necessary for power users.
This is provided by the Tab bar.

When/if we have buttons to switch between these two modes elsewhere (maybe the 
statusbar), we can hide the tab bar again.

If you are ok with that, I'll prepare a patch to show the tab bar by default.

Thanks
Samuel


Von: Italo Vignoli 
Gesendet: Donnerstag, 14. Januar 2016 10:11
An: design@global.libreoffice.org
Betreff: Re: [libreoffice-design] Re: Impress Mode Toolbar

On 13/01/16 21:39, V Stuart Foote wrote:

>>From your apparent shock that something changed, should we assume that you
> had not taken a recent build of master nor one of the 5.1.0 beta releases
> out for a test? And only now got around to seeing what is new?

Don't be silly, please. I have 5 computers, so I have LibreOffice 5.1
installed on 3 machines since Beta 1, and I have just installed RC2, but
on the computer I use for production I still have LibreOffice 5.0
because Impress is unusable because of this completely idiot decision
(again, not shared at all with Impress users, but based only on ideas of
a few people who do not use Impress as a professional tool).

Anyway, if the decision is to keep the insanity as it is, and to turn
down complaints as rants - twice, just unbelievable - I will fight it
with all my force and in every available channel.

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Re: [libreoffice-design] Re: Impress Mode Toolbar

[Michel RENON]

Le 13/01/2016 14:35, V Stuart Foote a écrit :

[...]

When refactored it was provided with a simple View menu toggle "Modes Tab
Bar" so "power users", or the intransigent, can enable or disable it as
desired--but no longer consuming the vertical space by default.

Reasonable UI and UX--nothing is gone.




I discovered that change in the release note page (wiki) and found it 
interesting as it's something I've being thinking of 2,5 years ago :

https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Michelr/LibreOfficeNewUX
Beside the vertical lost space, it was the "impossible button" problem 
that was really annoying.



Now that problem is starting to be fixed, I agree with Italo that it's 
incomplete : there is a problem of discoverability of the new 'Mode' 
button, it's lost in the toolbar.

So I just made a proposal based on current master version :
https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Michelr/Impress51_group_buttons

It also takes care of moving buttons about slides (add, modify...) into 
the side panel.



Cheers,

Michel


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Re: [libreoffice-design] Re: Impress Mode Toolbar

[Italo Vignoli]

On 14/01/16 10:20, Michel RENON wrote:

> Now that problem is starting to be fixed, I agree with Italo that it's
> incomplete : there is a problem of discoverability of the new 'Mode'
> button, it's lost in the toolbar.
> So I just made a proposal based on current master version :
> https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Michelr/Impress51_group_buttons

> It also takes care of moving buttons about slides (add, modify...) into
> the side panel.

I like the solution (which has some rationale behind it).

Personally, I would move the "master" area behind a menu under the
"mode" area (as it is in Apple Keynote:
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/116590/keynote.png) to force basic
users to make an additional step (to avoid the risk that they edit the
master instead of the slide, destroying the entire presentation: basic
users do things that humans can hardly believe, but they keep on doing
them even after they have been trained).

PowerPoint has master editing in a separate menu, as Impress until
version 5.1 (IMHO, a better solution, to keep basic users away from
slide masters, and avoid potential disasters).

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Re: [libreoffice-design] Re: Impress Mode Toolbar

[Michel RENON]

Le 14/01/2016 10:48, Italo Vignoli a écrit :

On 14/01/16 10:20, Samuel Mehrbrodt wrote:

> If you are ok with that, I'll prepare a patch to show the tab bar by
default.

Sorry, it's not "me" being OK with the solution, "users" should be OK
with the solution (and users have not been asked at all: the fact that
is all documented on GitHub or in other esotheric places that users do
not access - users are not developers - is a gigantic bullshit).


You said very important things !
That's the core problem : currently, there is no user feedback.

The design team is very motivated to create good UI, but we (as I
participated in the design team) have the "ivory tower" syndrom :
we just talk between 3 to 10 people, mostly some people heavily
involved in LibreOffice or software development.
We never have the feedback from 'lambda/basic' users.
Designing a software is much much more than doing IRC or hangouts and
talking about one mockup. It should have "use cases, prototypes, user 
testing and iterate". (it's not a rant against the design team, it's a 
constructive critic or an enhancement request)

I talked about that (and much more already 3 years ago in my blog [1]

Few days ago, I started the idea of "eating our own dog food", that is 
design team should use LO to create mockups, and more if possible.
It would be a first step in having user feedback : some internal 
feedback, but design team should be in front of real usability problems 
in LO.
As a regular user of LO, I'm often angry because of such details that 
reduce/kill my productivity in my daily job.




Michel


[1] http://mr-consultant.net/blog/category/libreoffice

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Re: [libreoffice-design] Impress Mode Toolbar

[Italo Vignoli]

On 14/01/16 09:27, Cor Nouws wrote:

> So I do agree that the new split icon makes it more likely that someone
> takes a look at master pages. I'm not convinced that it introduces "new
> great dangers for corporate use".

Cor, it depends from the average skill set of the users.

If they edit the master instead of editing the slide, because they
access the master instead of the slide (and they do not recognize that
they are working on the master, but this is normal, as when I teach
people about the master slide feature they all ask "which is the
difference" - which is visible - when I switch from slide to master),
they can destroy the presentation in a few simple steps, because all
changes to that slide will be applied to all slides (because they
changed the master anche not the slide).

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Re: [libreoffice-design] Re: Impress Mode Toolbar

[Italo Vignoli]

On 13/01/16 21:39, V Stuart Foote wrote:

>>From your apparent shock that something changed, should we assume that you
> had not taken a recent build of master nor one of the 5.1.0 beta releases
> out for a test? And only now got around to seeing what is new?

Don't be silly, please. I have 5 computers, so I have LibreOffice 5.1
installed on 3 machines since Beta 1, and I have just installed RC2, but
on the computer I use for production I still have LibreOffice 5.0
because Impress is unusable because of this completely idiot decision
(again, not shared at all with Impress users, but based only on ideas of
a few people who do not use Impress as a professional tool).

Anyway, if the decision is to keep the insanity as it is, and to turn
down complaints as rants - twice, just unbelievable - I will fight it
with all my force and in every available channel.

-- 
Italo Vignoli - Marketing & PR
mobile +39.348.5653829 - email / jabber it...@libreoffice.org
hangout / jabber italo.vign...@gmail.com - skype italovignoli
GPG Key ID - 0xAAB8D5C0
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Re: [libreoffice-design] Re: Impress Mode Toolbar

[Sophie]

Le 14/01/2016 10:48, Italo Vignoli a écrit :
> On 14/01/16 10:20, Samuel Mehrbrodt wrote:
> 
>> If you are ok with that, I'll prepare a patch to show the tab bar by default.
> 
> Sorry, it's not "me" being OK with the solution, "users" should be OK
> with the solution (and users have not been asked at all: the fact that
> is all documented on GitHub or in other esotheric places that users do
> not access - users are not developers - is a gigantic bullshit).
> 
> Michael's solution is a nice one (of course, this is a gut feeling, as
> this is only a mockup), but I suppose it is too late to implement it for
> LibreOffice 5.1, and test it appropriately.
> 
> So, showing the Mode Tab Bar by default, showing the Mode Tab Bar Switch
> icon by default, and moving both icons in a better place in the toolbar
> (at the moment, it is not clear at all how to switch from on view to the
> other, and at first I thought that the bar had disappeared because of a
> regression) are probably feasible for LibreOffice 5.1.
> 
> Maybe, a better place is close to the Format Page/Slide & Slide Master
> icons, as the operations are rather similar. The actual position, in
> between Undo/Redo and Find & Replace, is just insane (and no one is able
> to find it: tested on over 30 people, all trainers).

I agree with you that moving the icon elsewhere in the toolbar is the
only possible thing for the moment, we are in hard code freeze period,
so no possibility to change more than this.
When working on a slide desk last week, I didn't found it difficult to
switch in the View menu, what annoy me is that the choice is not retained.
That said, there is again a communication issue concerning those
important changes. We should work to document those changes more
prominently than in the releases notes or git and have these
documentations ready for the alpha/beta stage so this can be
communicated via several channels before the hard code freeze.
Would it be possible to discuss this during the next meeting?
Cheers
Sophie

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IRC: sophi
Co-founder - Release coordinator
The Document Foundation

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Re: [libreoffice-design] Re: Impress Mode Toolbar

[Michel RENON]

Le 14/01/2016 10:59, Sophie a écrit :

Le 14/01/2016 10:48, Italo Vignoli a écrit :
> On 14/01/16 10:20, Samuel Mehrbrodt wrote:
>
>> If you are ok with that, I'll prepare a patch to show the tab bar by default.
>
> Sorry, it's not "me" being OK with the solution, "users" should be OK
> with the solution (and users have not been asked at all: the fact that
> is all documented on GitHub or in other esotheric places that users do
> not access - users are not developers - is a gigantic bullshit).
>
> Michael's solution is a nice one (of course, this is a gut feeling, as
> this is only a mockup), but I suppose it is too late to implement it for
> LibreOffice 5.1, and test it appropriately.
>
> So, showing the Mode Tab Bar by default, showing the Mode Tab Bar Switch
> icon by default, and moving both icons in a better place in the toolbar
> (at the moment, it is not clear at all how to switch from on view to the
> other, and at first I thought that the bar had disappeared because of a
> regression) are probably feasible for LibreOffice 5.1.
>
> Maybe, a better place is close to the Format Page/Slide & Slide Master
> icons, as the operations are rather similar. The actual position, in
> between Undo/Redo and Find & Replace, is just insane (and no one is able
> to find it: tested on over 30 people, all trainers).

I agree with you that moving the icon elsewhere in the toolbar is the
only possible thing for the moment, we are in hard code freeze period,
so no possibility to change more than this.
When working on a slide desk last week, I didn't found it difficult to
switch in the View menu, what annoy me is that the choice is not retained.
That said, there is again a communication issue concerning those
important changes. We should work to document those changes more
prominently than in the releases notes or git and have these
documentations ready for the alpha/beta stage so this can be
communicated via several channels before the hard code freeze.


[resent to the ml]

Currently, some design changes are merged asap in master, just because 
the code is ok.
Then during alpha or beta, some user feedback is coming, but it's 
already too late to make changes in code...



Why not working on those changes in specific branches ?
and take time to have user feedback and iterate.

And only when everything is ok (ui, code), it is merged in master with 
the usual process




Michel

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Re: [libreoffice-design] Re: Impress Mode Toolbar

[Italo Vignoli]

On 14/01/16 10:20, Samuel Mehrbrodt wrote:

> If you are ok with that, I'll prepare a patch to show the tab bar by default.

Sorry, it's not "me" being OK with the solution, "users" should be OK
with the solution (and users have not been asked at all: the fact that
is all documented on GitHub or in other esotheric places that users do
not access - users are not developers - is a gigantic bullshit).

Michael's solution is a nice one (of course, this is a gut feeling, as
this is only a mockup), but I suppose it is too late to implement it for
LibreOffice 5.1, and test it appropriately.

So, showing the Mode Tab Bar by default, showing the Mode Tab Bar Switch
icon by default, and moving both icons in a better place in the toolbar
(at the moment, it is not clear at all how to switch from on view to the
other, and at first I thought that the bar had disappeared because of a
regression) are probably feasible for LibreOffice 5.1.

Maybe, a better place is close to the Format Page/Slide & Slide Master
icons, as the operations are rather similar. The actual position, in
between Undo/Redo and Find & Replace, is just insane (and no one is able
to find it: tested on over 30 people, all trainers).

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Re: [libreoffice-design] Re: Impress Mode Toolbar

[Sophie]

Hi Italo, all
Le 14/01/2016 11:08, Italo Vignoli a écrit :
> On 14/01/16 10:59, Sophie wrote:
> 
>> When working on a slide desk last week, I didn't found it difficult to
>> switch in the View menu, what annoy me is that the choice is not retained.
> 
> I cannot consider myself as a normal user, so the fact that I am able to
> switch without issues (once I have found how to switch) does not mean
> that basic users will be able to do the same.
> 
> I am working as an Impress trainer for migrations in Italy, so I know
> rather well basic Impress users, and I know the disasters basic users
> can generate without even realizing that they are doing it wrong.
> 
> I am especially worried by basic users. Impress is not the best piece of
> software around for the habits of basic users switching from MS
> PowerPoint, and making it worse is not the right solution.

Well, you know I agree with you :) But I also trust the design team and
they are doing a not so easy and hard work, both in term of design and
in term of changing user habits.
> 
>> Would it be possible to discuss this during the next meeting?
> 
> I am happy to be in the meeting, and to contribute to a solution to
> improve Impress UI.

I was more thinking about a communication workflow discussion than the
usual UI moves. There is a lot of pressure on the design team that I
would like to help to appease and I think communication is part of that
pressure.

Cheers
Sophie

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Re: [libreoffice-design] Re: Impress Mode Toolbar

[Michel Renon]

Le 13/01/2016 14:35, V Stuart Foote a écrit :

[...]

When refactored it was provided with a simple View menu toggle "Modes Tab
Bar" so "power users", or the intransigent, can enable or disable it as
desired--but no longer consuming the vertical space by default.

Reasonable UI and UX--nothing is gone.




I just discovered that change in the release note page (wiki) and found 
it interesting as it's something I've being thinking of 2,5 years ago :

https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Michelr/LibreOfficeNewUX
Beside the vertical lost space, it was the "impossible button" problem 
that was really annoying.



Now that problem is starting to be fixed, I agree with Italo that it's 
incomplete : there is a problem of discoverability of the new 'Mode' 
button, it's lost in the toolbar.

So I just made a proposal based on current master version :
https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Michelr/Impress51_group_buttons

It also takes care of moving buttons about slides (add, modify...) into 
the side panel.



Cheers,

Michel


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Re: [libreoffice-design] Re: Impress Mode Toolbar

[Heiko Tietze]

On Thursday, 14 January 2016 10:59:06 CET Sophie wrote:
> Would it be possible to discuss this during the next meeting?
Good idea. I tried to summarize the discussion in the minutes [1]. Looking 
forward tomorrow 1:00pm UTC (14:00 GMT).

[1] http://pad.documentfoundation.org/p/design
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[libreoffice-design] Re: Impress Mode Toolbar

[V Stuart Foote]

Takeshi Abe wrote
> ... about advantage of Modes Tab Bar.
> IMHO it is worth the cost of vertical space.
> Although the icon Display Mode is beautiful, changing the mode through
> Display Mode requires 3 mouse motions (a click, small move, and another
> click).

OK, and equally a reasonable action with the refactoring  would be to ensure
that the newly navigable uno: actions for the button widgets are at least
assigned accelerators in DrawImpressCommands.xcu.  Or probably better if
placed in Accelerators.xcu and assigned fixed Impress short-cut's (a MOD1 or
MOD2 key with mnemonic).

.uno:DiaMode
.uno:OutlineMode
.uno:NotesMode
.uno:HandoutMode

with a slightly more demanding short-cut for the Master controls (MOD1 +
MOD2 and mnemonic)

.uno:SlideMasterPage
.uno:NotesMasterPage

Doing that to establish reliable keyboard navigation between Impress view
modes, and eliminate dependence on GUI widgets would be reasonable
enhancement to the refactoring.

"serious Impress users" might even find it useful ;-)

Stuart
 



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[libreoffice-design] Icons for new commands insert column/row before/after for theme Galaxy

[Regina Henschel]

Hi all,

I have made new icons for the theme Galaxy. They are attached to bug 
97116. Please have a look, which set you like more.


Kind regards
Regina

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Re: [libreoffice-design] Re: Impress Mode Toolbar

[Michel RENON]

Le 14/01/2016 15:26, V Stuart Foote a écrit :

Michel RENON-2 wrote

...
[resent to the ml]
Currently, some design changes are merged asap in master, just because
the code is ok.
Then during alpha or beta, some user feedback is coming, but it's
already too late to make changes in code...


Why not working on those changes in specific branches ?
and take time to have user feedback and iterate.

And only when everything is ok (ui, code), it is merged in master with
the usual process


Maybe ask the remaining AOO folks how that development model is working for
them?

IMHO this would be a horrible regression from a developers perspective. It
would kill the project's timed release ethos, and stifle innovative code
development and ongoing refactoring of our long code tail.  It would be
detrimental to the long term health of the project and likely ultimately
kill it.



Let me clarify :
I absolutely don't want to change the time based releases (every 6 months).

I just mean to merge design changes in master when they have been 
validated (by design team, by user testing).
So, if a design change is not complete for version N, it will be merged 
for version N+1 (+6 months). that's all.


Today, there is a strong process to validate code : developers work on 
some branches, until they reach good quality level, then they ask for 
merging in master : gerrit, automatic compilation, automatic tests, 
reviews by core devs ; and that's ok and absolutely necessary.


My wish is to have a similar process for design changes.

As it's not ok to merge alpha-quality code to master, it should not be 
ok to merge alpha-quality design in master.


That's what happened for the 'new template manager' for LO4.0 : it was a 
painful time because design was incomplete and incoherent.
And important feedback were made during beta, that created changes at 
the last minute : developers were in hurry. So users of LO4.0 had a 
alpha-quality design.

And some regressions that are still not corrected :
https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=60589

Same problems for new start center for LO4.2 : user feedback while beta, 
last-minutes changes. I proposed to postpone it to 4.3, to give enough 
time to designers and devs to correct it [1]. But it was too late : it 
was merged in master and already in string or feature freeze...



IMHO, it won't kill LO, it would enhance its perceived quality.
And it would reduce work of translation and documentation teams : they 
would have to handle less versions.




What is fun is that two time I said "postpone ONE functionality to next 
version (+6 months)", people understood "revert WHOLE LibreOffice to a 
release-when-ready". Is my written-english so bad ??



[1] http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/msg06280.html


The truth is the success of LibreOffice has come in large part from exactly
the welcoming meritocracy in development that has emerged.  Few question it
is a better product than the alternatives, but it keeps its relevance
because of the development model and functional cross platform support.

Are there hicups--design, UI and UX--absolutely! That keeps it fun for the
developers.



Sorry, I can't agree :
as a developer and designer, my focus is users.
And the only way for me to have fun is to have for every release :
- all problems solved / no regressions
- happy users

I hardly can't imagine why it is fun for developers to ship software to 
millions of users that have hiccups/problems to be solved in the next 
6-month-release...

Is it really the common way of thinking in FOSS ?



Michel


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[libreoffice-design] Re: Impress Mode Toolbar

[V Stuart Foote]

Michel RENON-2 wrote
>> Are there hicups--design, UI and UX--absolutely! That keeps it fun for
>> the
>> developers.
>>
> 
> Sorry, I can't agree :
> as a developer and designer, my focus is users.
> And the only way for me to have fun is to have for every release :
> - all problems solved / no regressions
> - happy users
> 
> I hardly can't imagine why it is fun for developers to ship software to 
> millions of users that have hiccups/problems to be solved in the next 
> 6-month-release...
> Is it really the common way of thinking in FOSS ?

If we were just "releasing" every six months "when ready"--maybe it then
would be reasonable to hold back "feature" and design changes--and develop
(design, code, test)  new features in branches.  But suspect in that
scenario a whole lot of innovation would *never* see the light of day as it
would not be reviewed and the responsible dev would move on to other more
interesting things. Development in master forces a certain discipline and
consistency to the process--it is inherently all peer reviewed--and to the
extent that users participate, they see it then.

With our 6-month life cycle of a major releases, we actually "release" every
month, and have ample opportunity to repair regression or revert
inappropriate features that really do adversely impact usability of the
suite.  Sorry, but it does not have to be flawless--nor is it.

Given the numbers of volunteers actually contributing to the project in that
scenario it simply remains more efficient to develop into master.  There our
limited counts of Designers, QA and developers as well as motivated users
are freely able to review emerging features (or issues) and comment as
development proceeds.

The shortcoming is obtaining consistent and continual review by a broader
user community--that is a communications issue.  Most issues are cosmetic
like this suppression of the Impress Mode tab bar here, it would have been
trivial to have the "Modes Tab Bar" button set enabled on the Standard tool
bar if someone with an objection simply mentioned it to the dev rather than
waiting to 5.1.0.2--RC2 is ready to release.
 
Stuart



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