Re: Time to remove automated messages from the devlist?

[Dmitriy Pavlov]

Hi Oleg,

AFAIK digest subscription works for individuals, who can voluntary
subscribe to digests. It is not about forwarding digests from one list
to another.

Forwarding digest may require us to develop some kind of our own tool for
this (like AI TC Bot), but I would like to avoid any development here :).

Actually, I thought only about someone who wants to monitor the list (to
understand what happens, to select issue he or she want to contribute/or to
discourage its addition to the product).

But this forwarding is also to be used by all community members to know if
there any issues related to their previous contributions. A user who
reports a new issue using JIRA usually has absolutely no clue who can now
help with resolving. So this forwarding should help us to figure out any
new problems should be addressed.

Sincerely,
Dmitriy Pavlov

пт, 11 янв. 2019 г. в 12:47, oignatenko :

> Hi Denis,
>
> Mixing JIRA and human mails in one list seems to be inconvenient both for
> those interested in monitoring human and JIRA mails and from this
> perspective separate lists approach looks superior.
>
> Also, your mention of filtering made me wonder if "mixed" approach may have
> effect opposite to what you want, that is folks will just blindly filter
> out
> JIRA mails so that these will be effectively hidden from target audience.
>
> That said, your reasons for sending JIRA notifications to mailing list
> readers look important to me and that also makes me unhappy with approach
> of
> separate JIRA list.
>
> Trying to figure if there is a way to somehow resolve above contradiction I
> re-checked Apache mailing lists documentation for maybe they have something
> to address these matters somehow.
>
> From what I read it looks that we can try sort of combined solution, when
> JIRA notification feed to separate mailing list which in turn forwards
> daily
> digest to human list. [1]
>
> WDYT?
>
> regards, Oleg
>
> [1]: https://apache.org/foundation/mailinglists.html#digest-subscriptions
>
>
> Denis Magda-2 wrote
> > -1 for this action.
> >
> > JIRA notifications are sent on purpose to the dev list - someone came
> > across an issue and want to report it to the dev community. The community
> > has to be aware of this. That's the purpose of the community to improve
> > and
> > fix the project. It's just wrong to force to subscribe to 2 lists, people
> > won't do this, we're lazy by nature. Just use email filters, that's XXI
> > century but please don't separate discussions from issues reporting.
> >
> > --
> > Denis
> >
> >
> > On Thu, Jan 10, 2019 at 3:55 AM Dmitriy Pavlov <
>
> > dpavlov@
>
> > > wrote:
> >
> >> Hi Igniters,
> >>
> >> After removal of GitHub Comments from the list I have (a very
> subjective)
> >> feeling, that there became more human-human interaction, which is
> >> definitely more important that opportunity to control new JIRA tickets
> >> using the list.
> >>
> >> I suggest coming back to the idea of moving JIRA to a separate list.
> >> Please
> >> share your vision on this topic. Should it be
>
> > jira@.apache
>
> >  or we
> >> should reuse
>
> > notifications@.apache
>
> >>
> >> Sincerely,
> >> Dmitriy Pavlov
> >>
>
>
>
>
>
> --
> Sent from: http://apache-ignite-developers.2346864.n4.nabble.com/
>

Re: Time to remove automated messages from the devlist?

[oignatenko]

Hi Denis,

Mixing JIRA and human mails in one list seems to be inconvenient both for
those interested in monitoring human and JIRA mails and from this
perspective separate lists approach looks superior.

Also, your mention of filtering made me wonder if "mixed" approach may have
effect opposite to what you want, that is folks will just blindly filter out
JIRA mails so that these will be effectively hidden from target audience.

That said, your reasons for sending JIRA notifications to mailing list
readers look important to me and that also makes me unhappy with approach of
separate JIRA list.

Trying to figure if there is a way to somehow resolve above contradiction I
re-checked Apache mailing lists documentation for maybe they have something
to address these matters somehow.

>From what I read it looks that we can try sort of combined solution, when
JIRA notification feed to separate mailing list which in turn forwards daily
digest to human list. [1]

WDYT?

regards, Oleg

[1]: https://apache.org/foundation/mailinglists.html#digest-subscriptions


Denis Magda-2 wrote
> -1 for this action.
> 
> JIRA notifications are sent on purpose to the dev list - someone came
> across an issue and want to report it to the dev community. The community
> has to be aware of this. That's the purpose of the community to improve
> and
> fix the project. It's just wrong to force to subscribe to 2 lists, people
> won't do this, we're lazy by nature. Just use email filters, that's XXI
> century but please don't separate discussions from issues reporting.
> 
> --
> Denis
> 
> 
> On Thu, Jan 10, 2019 at 3:55 AM Dmitriy Pavlov <

> dpavlov@

> > wrote:
> 
>> Hi Igniters,
>>
>> After removal of GitHub Comments from the list I have (a very subjective)
>> feeling, that there became more human-human interaction, which is
>> definitely more important that opportunity to control new JIRA tickets
>> using the list.
>>
>> I suggest coming back to the idea of moving JIRA to a separate list.
>> Please
>> share your vision on this topic. Should it be 

> jira@.apache

>  or we
>> should reuse 

> notifications@.apache

>>
>> Sincerely,
>> Dmitriy Pavlov
>> 





--
Sent from: http://apache-ignite-developers.2346864.n4.nabble.com/

Re: Time to remove automated messages from the devlist?

[Denis Magda]

Vladimir,

Personally, I treat ticket creation in JIRA as an alternate action for a
new dev list discussion when a task is not severe, and there is no need to
start an explicit conversation. Someone wants the dev community to be aware
of a task or issue, hoping that ownership will be taken soon. Yes,
sometimes dev discussions precede the ticket creation, but as far as I see,
there are much more "ticket first" occurrences when a discussion is
redundant, but the dev community still has to be aware of.

--
Denis

On Thu, Jan 10, 2019 at 11:25 PM Vladimir Ozerov 
wrote:

> Denis,
>
> We have long discussion about that (see above). And general consensus is
> that typical contributor is not interested in majority of automated
> messages. All updates except of "ticket created" are already routed to the
> separate list for a long time. This JIRA list contains important
> notifications such as status changes and people mentions, which are of
> equal importance to community. And nobody complained yet that he misses
> something important because of this list.
>
> Moreover, when tickets are created, they are very often contain only
> preliminary thoughts and design, and do not reflect accurately what is
> going to be done. What does really matter is human communication on the dev
> list, human comments in JIRA, IEP.
>
> If we want to keep community aware of new tickets still, we can organize
> weekly or monthly digest with the list of all created tickets during the
> period.
>
> Vladimir.
>
> On Fri, Jan 11, 2019 at 2:32 AM Denis Magda  wrote:
>
> > -1 for this action.
> >
> > JIRA notifications are sent on purpose to the dev list - someone came
> > across an issue and want to report it to the dev community. The community
> > has to be aware of this. That's the purpose of the community to improve
> and
> > fix the project. It's just wrong to force to subscribe to 2 lists, people
> > won't do this, we're lazy by nature. Just use email filters, that's XXI
> > century but please don't separate discussions from issues reporting.
> >
> > --
> > Denis
> >
> >
> > On Thu, Jan 10, 2019 at 3:55 AM Dmitriy Pavlov 
> wrote:
> >
> > > Hi Igniters,
> > >
> > > After removal of GitHub Comments from the list I have (a very
> subjective)
> > > feeling, that there became more human-human interaction, which is
> > > definitely more important that opportunity to control new JIRA tickets
> > > using the list.
> > >
> > > I suggest coming back to the idea of moving JIRA to a separate list.
> > Please
> > > share your vision on this topic. Should it be j...@ignite.apache.org
> or
> > we
> > > should reuse notificati...@ignite.apache.org
> > >
> > > Sincerely,
> > > Dmitriy Pavlov
> > >
> > > ср, 21 нояб. 2018 г. в 15:25, Dmitriy Pavlov :
> > >
> > > > Please start a vote according to
> > > > https://www.apache.org/foundation/voting.html
> > > > Anyone can start a vote, you don't need to be a PMC.
> > > >
> > > > I don't feel it is a very important issue to remove notifications
> from
> > > the
> > > > list, as it can be easily filtered out using mail setup. But if
> someone
> > > > feels it is really disturbing, please go ahead. I'm ok with GitHub
> > > > redirection, but I will not drive this topic.
> > > >
> > > > ср, 21 нояб. 2018 г. в 11:40, Павлухин Иван :
> > > >
> > > >> Dmitriy, let's proceed with it.
> > > >> вт, 20 нояб. 2018 г. в 23:20, Dmitriy Pavlov :
> > > >> >
> > > >> > One more thing I want to emphasize here. We can't just remove
> > > messages,
> > > >> it
> > > >> > _must_ be sent to some list, which is why we need some additional
> > > list,
> > > >> > e.g. notifications@ for this.
> > > >> >
> > > >> > So only one option to proceed here is to run a formal vote on list
> > > >> creation
> > > >> > and redirection of github/gitbox messages to a new list.
> > > >> >
> > > >> > пн, 19 нояб. 2018 г. в 18:23, Dmitriy Pavlov  >:
> > > >> >
> > > >> > > Denis, we need because contributors do not announce their
> > > >> > > intent/designs/etc manually. It is the best way ever? No, of
> > course.
> > > >> > >
> > > >> > > We have consensus on PR removal, so let's do it and see results.
> > > >> > >
> > > >> > > пн, 19 нояб. 2018 г. в 18:11, Denis Mekhanikov <
> > > dmekhani...@gmail.com
> > > >> >:
> > > >> > >
> > > >> > >> Dmitriy,
> > > >> > >>
> > > >> > >> If a person wants to track all new tickets, then he may go to
> > JIRA,
> > > >> create
> > > >> > >> a filter for Ignite tickets
> > > >> > >> and subscribe to it. JIRA has a pretty flexible configuration
> of
> > > >> filters
> > > >> > >> and subscriptions, so you can
> > > >> > >> specify exactly what issues you are interested in, and how
> often
> > > you
> > > >> want
> > > >> > >> to receive these emails.
> > > >> > >> This is much more convenient and more flexible than filtering
> > > emails
> > > >> from
> > > >> > >> a
> > > >> > >> bot.
> > > >> > >>
> > > >> > >> So, most people ignore JIRA messages, and the ones who want to
> > > track
> > > >> new
> > > >> >

Re: Time to remove automated messages from the devlist?

[Vladimir Ozerov]

Denis,

We have long discussion about that (see above). And general consensus is
that typical contributor is not interested in majority of automated
messages. All updates except of "ticket created" are already routed to the
separate list for a long time. This JIRA list contains important
notifications such as status changes and people mentions, which are of
equal importance to community. And nobody complained yet that he misses
something important because of this list.

Moreover, when tickets are created, they are very often contain only
preliminary thoughts and design, and do not reflect accurately what is
going to be done. What does really matter is human communication on the dev
list, human comments in JIRA, IEP.

If we want to keep community aware of new tickets still, we can organize
weekly or monthly digest with the list of all created tickets during the
period.

Vladimir.

On Fri, Jan 11, 2019 at 2:32 AM Denis Magda  wrote:

> -1 for this action.
>
> JIRA notifications are sent on purpose to the dev list - someone came
> across an issue and want to report it to the dev community. The community
> has to be aware of this. That's the purpose of the community to improve and
> fix the project. It's just wrong to force to subscribe to 2 lists, people
> won't do this, we're lazy by nature. Just use email filters, that's XXI
> century but please don't separate discussions from issues reporting.
>
> --
> Denis
>
>
> On Thu, Jan 10, 2019 at 3:55 AM Dmitriy Pavlov  wrote:
>
> > Hi Igniters,
> >
> > After removal of GitHub Comments from the list I have (a very subjective)
> > feeling, that there became more human-human interaction, which is
> > definitely more important that opportunity to control new JIRA tickets
> > using the list.
> >
> > I suggest coming back to the idea of moving JIRA to a separate list.
> Please
> > share your vision on this topic. Should it be j...@ignite.apache.org or
> we
> > should reuse notificati...@ignite.apache.org
> >
> > Sincerely,
> > Dmitriy Pavlov
> >
> > ср, 21 нояб. 2018 г. в 15:25, Dmitriy Pavlov :
> >
> > > Please start a vote according to
> > > https://www.apache.org/foundation/voting.html
> > > Anyone can start a vote, you don't need to be a PMC.
> > >
> > > I don't feel it is a very important issue to remove notifications from
> > the
> > > list, as it can be easily filtered out using mail setup. But if someone
> > > feels it is really disturbing, please go ahead. I'm ok with GitHub
> > > redirection, but I will not drive this topic.
> > >
> > > ср, 21 нояб. 2018 г. в 11:40, Павлухин Иван :
> > >
> > >> Dmitriy, let's proceed with it.
> > >> вт, 20 нояб. 2018 г. в 23:20, Dmitriy Pavlov :
> > >> >
> > >> > One more thing I want to emphasize here. We can't just remove
> > messages,
> > >> it
> > >> > _must_ be sent to some list, which is why we need some additional
> > list,
> > >> > e.g. notifications@ for this.
> > >> >
> > >> > So only one option to proceed here is to run a formal vote on list
> > >> creation
> > >> > and redirection of github/gitbox messages to a new list.
> > >> >
> > >> > пн, 19 нояб. 2018 г. в 18:23, Dmitriy Pavlov :
> > >> >
> > >> > > Denis, we need because contributors do not announce their
> > >> > > intent/designs/etc manually. It is the best way ever? No, of
> course.
> > >> > >
> > >> > > We have consensus on PR removal, so let's do it and see results.
> > >> > >
> > >> > > пн, 19 нояб. 2018 г. в 18:11, Denis Mekhanikov <
> > dmekhani...@gmail.com
> > >> >:
> > >> > >
> > >> > >> Dmitriy,
> > >> > >>
> > >> > >> If a person wants to track all new tickets, then he may go to
> JIRA,
> > >> create
> > >> > >> a filter for Ignite tickets
> > >> > >> and subscribe to it. JIRA has a pretty flexible configuration of
> > >> filters
> > >> > >> and subscriptions, so you can
> > >> > >> specify exactly what issues you are interested in, and how often
> > you
> > >> want
> > >> > >> to receive these emails.
> > >> > >> This is much more convenient and more flexible than filtering
> > emails
> > >> from
> > >> > >> a
> > >> > >> bot.
> > >> > >>
> > >> > >> So, most people ignore JIRA messages, and the ones who want to
> > track
> > >> new
> > >> > >> tickets,
> > >> > >> may go to JIRA and configure their own filters. I don't see, why
> we
> > >> need
> > >> > >> to
> > >> > >> keep the forwarding to dev list.
> > >> > >>
> > >> > >> Denis
> > >> > >>
> > >> > >> пт, 16 нояб. 2018 г. в 22:30, Павлухин Иван  >:
> > >> > >>
> > >> > >> > Hi,
> > >> > >> >
> > >> > >> > Can we collect opinions about keeping messages of mentioned
> types
> > >> on
> > >> > >> > dev list? From my side (+ means keeping on dev list):
> > >> > >> > TC bot +
> > >> > >> > Jira -
> > >> > >> > GitHub -
> > >> > >> > пт, 16 нояб. 2018 г. в 22:25, Dmitriy Pavlov <
> dpav...@apache.org
> > >:
> > >> > >> > >
> > >> > >> > > Importance is hardly definable and it is not possible that
> > >> importance
> > >> > >> is
> > >> > >> > > equal for everyone. You can say about other human e

Re: Time to remove automated messages from the devlist?

[Dmitriy Pavlov]

Ok, Denis, Thank you for sharing your vision.

BTW, we have now separate list for archiving all JIRA actions here
https://lists.apache.org/list.html?iss...@ignite.apache.org I didn't know
about it before yesterday. This probably proves that newcomers will ignore
a separate list.

пт, 11 янв. 2019 г. в 02:32, Denis Magda :

> -1 for this action.
>
> JIRA notifications are sent on purpose to the dev list - someone came
> across an issue and want to report it to the dev community. The community
> has to be aware of this. That's the purpose of the community to improve and
> fix the project. It's just wrong to force to subscribe to 2 lists, people
> won't do this, we're lazy by nature. Just use email filters, that's XXI
> century but please don't separate discussions from issues reporting.
>
> --
> Denis
>
>
> On Thu, Jan 10, 2019 at 3:55 AM Dmitriy Pavlov  wrote:
>
> > Hi Igniters,
> >
> > After removal of GitHub Comments from the list I have (a very subjective)
> > feeling, that there became more human-human interaction, which is
> > definitely more important that opportunity to control new JIRA tickets
> > using the list.
> >
> > I suggest coming back to the idea of moving JIRA to a separate list.
> Please
> > share your vision on this topic. Should it be j...@ignite.apache.org or
> we
> > should reuse notificati...@ignite.apache.org
> >
> > Sincerely,
> > Dmitriy Pavlov
> >
> > ср, 21 нояб. 2018 г. в 15:25, Dmitriy Pavlov :
> >
> > > Please start a vote according to
> > > https://www.apache.org/foundation/voting.html
> > > Anyone can start a vote, you don't need to be a PMC.
> > >
> > > I don't feel it is a very important issue to remove notifications from
> > the
> > > list, as it can be easily filtered out using mail setup. But if someone
> > > feels it is really disturbing, please go ahead. I'm ok with GitHub
> > > redirection, but I will not drive this topic.
> > >
> > > ср, 21 нояб. 2018 г. в 11:40, Павлухин Иван :
> > >
> > >> Dmitriy, let's proceed with it.
> > >> вт, 20 нояб. 2018 г. в 23:20, Dmitriy Pavlov :
> > >> >
> > >> > One more thing I want to emphasize here. We can't just remove
> > messages,
> > >> it
> > >> > _must_ be sent to some list, which is why we need some additional
> > list,
> > >> > e.g. notifications@ for this.
> > >> >
> > >> > So only one option to proceed here is to run a formal vote on list
> > >> creation
> > >> > and redirection of github/gitbox messages to a new list.
> > >> >
> > >> > пн, 19 нояб. 2018 г. в 18:23, Dmitriy Pavlov :
> > >> >
> > >> > > Denis, we need because contributors do not announce their
> > >> > > intent/designs/etc manually. It is the best way ever? No, of
> course.
> > >> > >
> > >> > > We have consensus on PR removal, so let's do it and see results.
> > >> > >
> > >> > > пн, 19 нояб. 2018 г. в 18:11, Denis Mekhanikov <
> > dmekhani...@gmail.com
> > >> >:
> > >> > >
> > >> > >> Dmitriy,
> > >> > >>
> > >> > >> If a person wants to track all new tickets, then he may go to
> JIRA,
> > >> create
> > >> > >> a filter for Ignite tickets
> > >> > >> and subscribe to it. JIRA has a pretty flexible configuration of
> > >> filters
> > >> > >> and subscriptions, so you can
> > >> > >> specify exactly what issues you are interested in, and how often
> > you
> > >> want
> > >> > >> to receive these emails.
> > >> > >> This is much more convenient and more flexible than filtering
> > emails
> > >> from
> > >> > >> a
> > >> > >> bot.
> > >> > >>
> > >> > >> So, most people ignore JIRA messages, and the ones who want to
> > track
> > >> new
> > >> > >> tickets,
> > >> > >> may go to JIRA and configure their own filters. I don't see, why
> we
> > >> need
> > >> > >> to
> > >> > >> keep the forwarding to dev list.
> > >> > >>
> > >> > >> Denis
> > >> > >>
> > >> > >> пт, 16 нояб. 2018 г. в 22:30, Павлухин Иван  >:
> > >> > >>
> > >> > >> > Hi,
> > >> > >> >
> > >> > >> > Can we collect opinions about keeping messages of mentioned
> types
> > >> on
> > >> > >> > dev list? From my side (+ means keeping on dev list):
> > >> > >> > TC bot +
> > >> > >> > Jira -
> > >> > >> > GitHub -
> > >> > >> > пт, 16 нояб. 2018 г. в 22:25, Dmitriy Pavlov <
> dpav...@apache.org
> > >:
> > >> > >> > >
> > >> > >> > > Importance is hardly definable and it is not possible that
> > >> importance
> > >> > >> is
> > >> > >> > > equal for everyone. You can say about other human emails it
> is
> > >> not
> > >> > >> > > important if some product area is not interesting for you.
> So I
> > >> can
> > >> > >> only
> > >> > >> > > understand the terms: email needs action/does not need
> action.
> > >> > >> > >
> > >> > >> > > If some contributor never reacted to JIRA notification he or
> > she
> > >> may
> > >> > >> > think
> > >> > >> > > it is not important. But even we have a majority of
> > contributors
> > >> who
> > >> > >> > > ignores JIRA, it does not mean it is a right decision to
> switch
> > >> it
> > >> > >> off.
> > >> > >> > We
> > >> > >> > > don't play in a democracy, hopefull

Re: Time to remove automated messages from the devlist?

[Denis Magda]

-1 for this action.

JIRA notifications are sent on purpose to the dev list - someone came
across an issue and want to report it to the dev community. The community
has to be aware of this. That's the purpose of the community to improve and
fix the project. It's just wrong to force to subscribe to 2 lists, people
won't do this, we're lazy by nature. Just use email filters, that's XXI
century but please don't separate discussions from issues reporting.

--
Denis


On Thu, Jan 10, 2019 at 3:55 AM Dmitriy Pavlov  wrote:

> Hi Igniters,
>
> After removal of GitHub Comments from the list I have (a very subjective)
> feeling, that there became more human-human interaction, which is
> definitely more important that opportunity to control new JIRA tickets
> using the list.
>
> I suggest coming back to the idea of moving JIRA to a separate list. Please
> share your vision on this topic. Should it be j...@ignite.apache.org or we
> should reuse notificati...@ignite.apache.org
>
> Sincerely,
> Dmitriy Pavlov
>
> ср, 21 нояб. 2018 г. в 15:25, Dmitriy Pavlov :
>
> > Please start a vote according to
> > https://www.apache.org/foundation/voting.html
> > Anyone can start a vote, you don't need to be a PMC.
> >
> > I don't feel it is a very important issue to remove notifications from
> the
> > list, as it can be easily filtered out using mail setup. But if someone
> > feels it is really disturbing, please go ahead. I'm ok with GitHub
> > redirection, but I will not drive this topic.
> >
> > ср, 21 нояб. 2018 г. в 11:40, Павлухин Иван :
> >
> >> Dmitriy, let's proceed with it.
> >> вт, 20 нояб. 2018 г. в 23:20, Dmitriy Pavlov :
> >> >
> >> > One more thing I want to emphasize here. We can't just remove
> messages,
> >> it
> >> > _must_ be sent to some list, which is why we need some additional
> list,
> >> > e.g. notifications@ for this.
> >> >
> >> > So only one option to proceed here is to run a formal vote on list
> >> creation
> >> > and redirection of github/gitbox messages to a new list.
> >> >
> >> > пн, 19 нояб. 2018 г. в 18:23, Dmitriy Pavlov :
> >> >
> >> > > Denis, we need because contributors do not announce their
> >> > > intent/designs/etc manually. It is the best way ever? No, of course.
> >> > >
> >> > > We have consensus on PR removal, so let's do it and see results.
> >> > >
> >> > > пн, 19 нояб. 2018 г. в 18:11, Denis Mekhanikov <
> dmekhani...@gmail.com
> >> >:
> >> > >
> >> > >> Dmitriy,
> >> > >>
> >> > >> If a person wants to track all new tickets, then he may go to JIRA,
> >> create
> >> > >> a filter for Ignite tickets
> >> > >> and subscribe to it. JIRA has a pretty flexible configuration of
> >> filters
> >> > >> and subscriptions, so you can
> >> > >> specify exactly what issues you are interested in, and how often
> you
> >> want
> >> > >> to receive these emails.
> >> > >> This is much more convenient and more flexible than filtering
> emails
> >> from
> >> > >> a
> >> > >> bot.
> >> > >>
> >> > >> So, most people ignore JIRA messages, and the ones who want to
> track
> >> new
> >> > >> tickets,
> >> > >> may go to JIRA and configure their own filters. I don't see, why we
> >> need
> >> > >> to
> >> > >> keep the forwarding to dev list.
> >> > >>
> >> > >> Denis
> >> > >>
> >> > >> пт, 16 нояб. 2018 г. в 22:30, Павлухин Иван :
> >> > >>
> >> > >> > Hi,
> >> > >> >
> >> > >> > Can we collect opinions about keeping messages of mentioned types
> >> on
> >> > >> > dev list? From my side (+ means keeping on dev list):
> >> > >> > TC bot +
> >> > >> > Jira -
> >> > >> > GitHub -
> >> > >> > пт, 16 нояб. 2018 г. в 22:25, Dmitriy Pavlov  >:
> >> > >> > >
> >> > >> > > Importance is hardly definable and it is not possible that
> >> importance
> >> > >> is
> >> > >> > > equal for everyone. You can say about other human emails it is
> >> not
> >> > >> > > important if some product area is not interesting for you. So I
> >> can
> >> > >> only
> >> > >> > > understand the terms: email needs action/does not need action.
> >> > >> > >
> >> > >> > > If some contributor never reacted to JIRA notification he or
> she
> >> may
> >> > >> > think
> >> > >> > > it is not important. But even we have a majority of
> contributors
> >> who
> >> > >> > > ignores JIRA, it does not mean it is a right decision to switch
> >> it
> >> > >> off.
> >> > >> > We
> >> > >> > > don't play in a democracy, hopefully.
> >> > >> > >
> >> > >> > > My suggestion now: keep showing an excellent example of
> >> human-human
> >> > >> > > interaction, announces, etc from all Ignite veterans
> (especially,
> >> > >> PMCs),
> >> > >> > so
> >> > >> > > newcomers can use the same approach.
> >> > >> > >
> >> > >> > > If PRs removal to notifications@ will show a positive tendency
> >> in
> >> > >> > > human-human interaction, I can easily agree with the second
> >> step. Only
> >> > >> > > practice is truth criteria.
> >> > >> > >
> >> > >> > > пт, 16 нояб. 2018 г. в 22:08, Vladimir Ozerov <
> >> voze...@gridgain.com>:
> >> > >> > >
> >> > >> > 

Re: Time to remove automated messages from the devlist?

[Denis Mekhanikov]

+1

I think, a separate list for JIRA notification is needed,
as they are more important, than other ones.
notificati...@ignite.apache.org may still aggregate all automatically
generated
messages from all sources.

So, I'm for stopping sending JIRA messages to the dev list, and sending them
to notifications and issues lists instead.

Denis

чт, 10 янв. 2019 г. в 18:14, Павлухин Иван :

> +1 for moving JIRA notifications out of dev-list. No strict opinion
> which list should be a destination for them, I am fine with both
> options.
>
> By the way Community Resources page [1] refers to 2 another lists
> iss...@ignite.apache.org and comm...@ignite.apache.org (but
> notificati...@ignite.apache.org is not listed there). Does anyone know
> why these lists are needed? Does anyone use any of them?
>
> [1] https://ignite.apache.org/community/resources.html
>
> чт, 10 янв. 2019 г. в 17:57, Alexey Kuznetsov :
> >
> > +1 for  j...@ignite.apache.org
> >
> > On Thu, Jan 10, 2019 at 6:55 PM Dmitriy Pavlov 
> wrote:
> >
> > > Hi Igniters,
> > >
> > > After removal of GitHub Comments from the list I have (a very
> subjective)
> > > feeling, that there became more human-human interaction, which is
> > > definitely more important that opportunity to control new JIRA tickets
> > > using the list.
> > >
> > > I suggest coming back to the idea of moving JIRA to a separate list.
> Please
> > > share your vision on this topic. Should it be j...@ignite.apache.org
> or we
> > > should reuse notificati...@ignite.apache.org
> > >
> > > Sincerely,
> > > Dmitriy Pavlov
> > >
> > > ср, 21 нояб. 2018 г. в 15:25, Dmitriy Pavlov :
> > >
> > > > Please start a vote according to
> > > > https://www.apache.org/foundation/voting.html
> > > > Anyone can start a vote, you don't need to be a PMC.
> > > >
> > > > I don't feel it is a very important issue to remove notifications
> from
> > > the
> > > > list, as it can be easily filtered out using mail setup. But if
> someone
> > > > feels it is really disturbing, please go ahead. I'm ok with GitHub
> > > > redirection, but I will not drive this topic.
> > > >
> > > > ср, 21 нояб. 2018 г. в 11:40, Павлухин Иван :
> > > >
> > > >> Dmitriy, let's proceed with it.
> > > >> вт, 20 нояб. 2018 г. в 23:20, Dmitriy Pavlov :
> > > >> >
> > > >> > One more thing I want to emphasize here. We can't just remove
> > > messages,
> > > >> it
> > > >> > _must_ be sent to some list, which is why we need some additional
> > > list,
> > > >> > e.g. notifications@ for this.
> > > >> >
> > > >> > So only one option to proceed here is to run a formal vote on list
> > > >> creation
> > > >> > and redirection of github/gitbox messages to a new list.
> > > >> >
> > > >> > пн, 19 нояб. 2018 г. в 18:23, Dmitriy Pavlov  >:
> > > >> >
> > > >> > > Denis, we need because contributors do not announce their
> > > >> > > intent/designs/etc manually. It is the best way ever? No, of
> course.
> > > >> > >
> > > >> > > We have consensus on PR removal, so let's do it and see results.
> > > >> > >
> > > >> > > пн, 19 нояб. 2018 г. в 18:11, Denis Mekhanikov <
> > > dmekhani...@gmail.com
> > > >> >:
> > > >> > >
> > > >> > >> Dmitriy,
> > > >> > >>
> > > >> > >> If a person wants to track all new tickets, then he may go to
> JIRA,
> > > >> create
> > > >> > >> a filter for Ignite tickets
> > > >> > >> and subscribe to it. JIRA has a pretty flexible configuration
> of
> > > >> filters
> > > >> > >> and subscriptions, so you can
> > > >> > >> specify exactly what issues you are interested in, and how
> often
> > > you
> > > >> want
> > > >> > >> to receive these emails.
> > > >> > >> This is much more convenient and more flexible than filtering
> > > emails
> > > >> from
> > > >> > >> a
> > > >> > >> bot.
> > > >> > >>
> > > >> > >> So, most people ignore JIRA messages, and the ones who want to
> > > track
> > > >> new
> > > >> > >> tickets,
> > > >> > >> may go to JIRA and configure their own filters. I don't see,
> why we
> > > >> need
> > > >> > >> to
> > > >> > >> keep the forwarding to dev list.
> > > >> > >>
> > > >> > >> Denis
> > > >> > >>
> > > >> > >> пт, 16 нояб. 2018 г. в 22:30, Павлухин Иван <
> vololo...@gmail.com>:
> > > >> > >>
> > > >> > >> > Hi,
> > > >> > >> >
> > > >> > >> > Can we collect opinions about keeping messages of mentioned
> types
> > > >> on
> > > >> > >> > dev list? From my side (+ means keeping on dev list):
> > > >> > >> > TC bot +
> > > >> > >> > Jira -
> > > >> > >> > GitHub -
> > > >> > >> > пт, 16 нояб. 2018 г. в 22:25, Dmitriy Pavlov <
> dpav...@apache.org
> > > >:
> > > >> > >> > >
> > > >> > >> > > Importance is hardly definable and it is not possible that
> > > >> importance
> > > >> > >> is
> > > >> > >> > > equal for everyone. You can say about other human emails
> it is
> > > >> not
> > > >> > >> > > important if some product area is not interesting for you.
> So I
> > > >> can
> > > >> > >> only
> > > >> > >> > > understand the terms: email needs action/does not need
> action.
> > > >> > >> > >

Re: Time to remove automated messages from the devlist?

[Alexey Kuznetsov]

I'm using  comm...@ignite.apache.org to track who and what commits to
master :)

-- 
Alexey Kuznetsov

Re: Time to remove automated messages from the devlist?

[Павлухин Иван]

+1 for moving JIRA notifications out of dev-list. No strict opinion
which list should be a destination for them, I am fine with both
options.

By the way Community Resources page [1] refers to 2 another lists
iss...@ignite.apache.org and comm...@ignite.apache.org (but
notificati...@ignite.apache.org is not listed there). Does anyone know
why these lists are needed? Does anyone use any of them?

[1] https://ignite.apache.org/community/resources.html

чт, 10 янв. 2019 г. в 17:57, Alexey Kuznetsov :
>
> +1 for  j...@ignite.apache.org
>
> On Thu, Jan 10, 2019 at 6:55 PM Dmitriy Pavlov  wrote:
>
> > Hi Igniters,
> >
> > After removal of GitHub Comments from the list I have (a very subjective)
> > feeling, that there became more human-human interaction, which is
> > definitely more important that opportunity to control new JIRA tickets
> > using the list.
> >
> > I suggest coming back to the idea of moving JIRA to a separate list. Please
> > share your vision on this topic. Should it be j...@ignite.apache.org or we
> > should reuse notificati...@ignite.apache.org
> >
> > Sincerely,
> > Dmitriy Pavlov
> >
> > ср, 21 нояб. 2018 г. в 15:25, Dmitriy Pavlov :
> >
> > > Please start a vote according to
> > > https://www.apache.org/foundation/voting.html
> > > Anyone can start a vote, you don't need to be a PMC.
> > >
> > > I don't feel it is a very important issue to remove notifications from
> > the
> > > list, as it can be easily filtered out using mail setup. But if someone
> > > feels it is really disturbing, please go ahead. I'm ok with GitHub
> > > redirection, but I will not drive this topic.
> > >
> > > ср, 21 нояб. 2018 г. в 11:40, Павлухин Иван :
> > >
> > >> Dmitriy, let's proceed with it.
> > >> вт, 20 нояб. 2018 г. в 23:20, Dmitriy Pavlov :
> > >> >
> > >> > One more thing I want to emphasize here. We can't just remove
> > messages,
> > >> it
> > >> > _must_ be sent to some list, which is why we need some additional
> > list,
> > >> > e.g. notifications@ for this.
> > >> >
> > >> > So only one option to proceed here is to run a formal vote on list
> > >> creation
> > >> > and redirection of github/gitbox messages to a new list.
> > >> >
> > >> > пн, 19 нояб. 2018 г. в 18:23, Dmitriy Pavlov :
> > >> >
> > >> > > Denis, we need because contributors do not announce their
> > >> > > intent/designs/etc manually. It is the best way ever? No, of course.
> > >> > >
> > >> > > We have consensus on PR removal, so let's do it and see results.
> > >> > >
> > >> > > пн, 19 нояб. 2018 г. в 18:11, Denis Mekhanikov <
> > dmekhani...@gmail.com
> > >> >:
> > >> > >
> > >> > >> Dmitriy,
> > >> > >>
> > >> > >> If a person wants to track all new tickets, then he may go to JIRA,
> > >> create
> > >> > >> a filter for Ignite tickets
> > >> > >> and subscribe to it. JIRA has a pretty flexible configuration of
> > >> filters
> > >> > >> and subscriptions, so you can
> > >> > >> specify exactly what issues you are interested in, and how often
> > you
> > >> want
> > >> > >> to receive these emails.
> > >> > >> This is much more convenient and more flexible than filtering
> > emails
> > >> from
> > >> > >> a
> > >> > >> bot.
> > >> > >>
> > >> > >> So, most people ignore JIRA messages, and the ones who want to
> > track
> > >> new
> > >> > >> tickets,
> > >> > >> may go to JIRA and configure their own filters. I don't see, why we
> > >> need
> > >> > >> to
> > >> > >> keep the forwarding to dev list.
> > >> > >>
> > >> > >> Denis
> > >> > >>
> > >> > >> пт, 16 нояб. 2018 г. в 22:30, Павлухин Иван :
> > >> > >>
> > >> > >> > Hi,
> > >> > >> >
> > >> > >> > Can we collect opinions about keeping messages of mentioned types
> > >> on
> > >> > >> > dev list? From my side (+ means keeping on dev list):
> > >> > >> > TC bot +
> > >> > >> > Jira -
> > >> > >> > GitHub -
> > >> > >> > пт, 16 нояб. 2018 г. в 22:25, Dmitriy Pavlov  > >:
> > >> > >> > >
> > >> > >> > > Importance is hardly definable and it is not possible that
> > >> importance
> > >> > >> is
> > >> > >> > > equal for everyone. You can say about other human emails it is
> > >> not
> > >> > >> > > important if some product area is not interesting for you. So I
> > >> can
> > >> > >> only
> > >> > >> > > understand the terms: email needs action/does not need action.
> > >> > >> > >
> > >> > >> > > If some contributor never reacted to JIRA notification he or
> > she
> > >> may
> > >> > >> > think
> > >> > >> > > it is not important. But even we have a majority of
> > contributors
> > >> who
> > >> > >> > > ignores JIRA, it does not mean it is a right decision to switch
> > >> it
> > >> > >> off.
> > >> > >> > We
> > >> > >> > > don't play in a democracy, hopefully.
> > >> > >> > >
> > >> > >> > > My suggestion now: keep showing an excellent example of
> > >> human-human
> > >> > >> > > interaction, announces, etc from all Ignite veterans
> > (especially,
> > >> > >> PMCs),
> > >> > >> > so
> > >> > >> > > newcomers can use the same approach.
> > >> > >> > >
> > >> > >> > > If PR

Re: Time to remove automated messages from the devlist?

[Alexey Kuznetsov]

+1 for  j...@ignite.apache.org

On Thu, Jan 10, 2019 at 6:55 PM Dmitriy Pavlov  wrote:

> Hi Igniters,
>
> After removal of GitHub Comments from the list I have (a very subjective)
> feeling, that there became more human-human interaction, which is
> definitely more important that opportunity to control new JIRA tickets
> using the list.
>
> I suggest coming back to the idea of moving JIRA to a separate list. Please
> share your vision on this topic. Should it be j...@ignite.apache.org or we
> should reuse notificati...@ignite.apache.org
>
> Sincerely,
> Dmitriy Pavlov
>
> ср, 21 нояб. 2018 г. в 15:25, Dmitriy Pavlov :
>
> > Please start a vote according to
> > https://www.apache.org/foundation/voting.html
> > Anyone can start a vote, you don't need to be a PMC.
> >
> > I don't feel it is a very important issue to remove notifications from
> the
> > list, as it can be easily filtered out using mail setup. But if someone
> > feels it is really disturbing, please go ahead. I'm ok with GitHub
> > redirection, but I will not drive this topic.
> >
> > ср, 21 нояб. 2018 г. в 11:40, Павлухин Иван :
> >
> >> Dmitriy, let's proceed with it.
> >> вт, 20 нояб. 2018 г. в 23:20, Dmitriy Pavlov :
> >> >
> >> > One more thing I want to emphasize here. We can't just remove
> messages,
> >> it
> >> > _must_ be sent to some list, which is why we need some additional
> list,
> >> > e.g. notifications@ for this.
> >> >
> >> > So only one option to proceed here is to run a formal vote on list
> >> creation
> >> > and redirection of github/gitbox messages to a new list.
> >> >
> >> > пн, 19 нояб. 2018 г. в 18:23, Dmitriy Pavlov :
> >> >
> >> > > Denis, we need because contributors do not announce their
> >> > > intent/designs/etc manually. It is the best way ever? No, of course.
> >> > >
> >> > > We have consensus on PR removal, so let's do it and see results.
> >> > >
> >> > > пн, 19 нояб. 2018 г. в 18:11, Denis Mekhanikov <
> dmekhani...@gmail.com
> >> >:
> >> > >
> >> > >> Dmitriy,
> >> > >>
> >> > >> If a person wants to track all new tickets, then he may go to JIRA,
> >> create
> >> > >> a filter for Ignite tickets
> >> > >> and subscribe to it. JIRA has a pretty flexible configuration of
> >> filters
> >> > >> and subscriptions, so you can
> >> > >> specify exactly what issues you are interested in, and how often
> you
> >> want
> >> > >> to receive these emails.
> >> > >> This is much more convenient and more flexible than filtering
> emails
> >> from
> >> > >> a
> >> > >> bot.
> >> > >>
> >> > >> So, most people ignore JIRA messages, and the ones who want to
> track
> >> new
> >> > >> tickets,
> >> > >> may go to JIRA and configure their own filters. I don't see, why we
> >> need
> >> > >> to
> >> > >> keep the forwarding to dev list.
> >> > >>
> >> > >> Denis
> >> > >>
> >> > >> пт, 16 нояб. 2018 г. в 22:30, Павлухин Иван :
> >> > >>
> >> > >> > Hi,
> >> > >> >
> >> > >> > Can we collect opinions about keeping messages of mentioned types
> >> on
> >> > >> > dev list? From my side (+ means keeping on dev list):
> >> > >> > TC bot +
> >> > >> > Jira -
> >> > >> > GitHub -
> >> > >> > пт, 16 нояб. 2018 г. в 22:25, Dmitriy Pavlov  >:
> >> > >> > >
> >> > >> > > Importance is hardly definable and it is not possible that
> >> importance
> >> > >> is
> >> > >> > > equal for everyone. You can say about other human emails it is
> >> not
> >> > >> > > important if some product area is not interesting for you. So I
> >> can
> >> > >> only
> >> > >> > > understand the terms: email needs action/does not need action.
> >> > >> > >
> >> > >> > > If some contributor never reacted to JIRA notification he or
> she
> >> may
> >> > >> > think
> >> > >> > > it is not important. But even we have a majority of
> contributors
> >> who
> >> > >> > > ignores JIRA, it does not mean it is a right decision to switch
> >> it
> >> > >> off.
> >> > >> > We
> >> > >> > > don't play in a democracy, hopefully.
> >> > >> > >
> >> > >> > > My suggestion now: keep showing an excellent example of
> >> human-human
> >> > >> > > interaction, announces, etc from all Ignite veterans
> (especially,
> >> > >> PMCs),
> >> > >> > so
> >> > >> > > newcomers can use the same approach.
> >> > >> > >
> >> > >> > > If PRs removal to notifications@ will show a positive tendency
> >> in
> >> > >> > > human-human interaction, I can easily agree with the second
> >> step. Only
> >> > >> > > practice is truth criteria.
> >> > >> > >
> >> > >> > > пт, 16 нояб. 2018 г. в 22:08, Vladimir Ozerov <
> >> voze...@gridgain.com>:
> >> > >> > >
> >> > >> > > > We want important emails to be easily observable. This is the
> >> only
> >> > >> > goal.
> >> > >> > > >
> >> > >> > > > пт, 16 нояб. 2018 г. в 21:51, Dmitriy Pavlov <
> >> dpav...@apache.org>:
> >> > >> > > >
> >> > >> > > > > I suggest to think in another paradigm, let's not classify
> >> emails
> >> > >> to
> >> > >> > be
> >> > >> > > > > automatically issued or not, lets separate emails to other
> >> > >> classes: a
> >> >

Re: Time to remove automated messages from the devlist?

[Dmitriy Pavlov]

Hi Igniters,

After removal of GitHub Comments from the list I have (a very subjective)
feeling, that there became more human-human interaction, which is
definitely more important that opportunity to control new JIRA tickets
using the list.

I suggest coming back to the idea of moving JIRA to a separate list. Please
share your vision on this topic. Should it be j...@ignite.apache.org or we
should reuse notificati...@ignite.apache.org

Sincerely,
Dmitriy Pavlov

ср, 21 нояб. 2018 г. в 15:25, Dmitriy Pavlov :

> Please start a vote according to
> https://www.apache.org/foundation/voting.html
> Anyone can start a vote, you don't need to be a PMC.
>
> I don't feel it is a very important issue to remove notifications from the
> list, as it can be easily filtered out using mail setup. But if someone
> feels it is really disturbing, please go ahead. I'm ok with GitHub
> redirection, but I will not drive this topic.
>
> ср, 21 нояб. 2018 г. в 11:40, Павлухин Иван :
>
>> Dmitriy, let's proceed with it.
>> вт, 20 нояб. 2018 г. в 23:20, Dmitriy Pavlov :
>> >
>> > One more thing I want to emphasize here. We can't just remove messages,
>> it
>> > _must_ be sent to some list, which is why we need some additional list,
>> > e.g. notifications@ for this.
>> >
>> > So only one option to proceed here is to run a formal vote on list
>> creation
>> > and redirection of github/gitbox messages to a new list.
>> >
>> > пн, 19 нояб. 2018 г. в 18:23, Dmitriy Pavlov :
>> >
>> > > Denis, we need because contributors do not announce their
>> > > intent/designs/etc manually. It is the best way ever? No, of course.
>> > >
>> > > We have consensus on PR removal, so let's do it and see results.
>> > >
>> > > пн, 19 нояб. 2018 г. в 18:11, Denis Mekhanikov > >:
>> > >
>> > >> Dmitriy,
>> > >>
>> > >> If a person wants to track all new tickets, then he may go to JIRA,
>> create
>> > >> a filter for Ignite tickets
>> > >> and subscribe to it. JIRA has a pretty flexible configuration of
>> filters
>> > >> and subscriptions, so you can
>> > >> specify exactly what issues you are interested in, and how often you
>> want
>> > >> to receive these emails.
>> > >> This is much more convenient and more flexible than filtering emails
>> from
>> > >> a
>> > >> bot.
>> > >>
>> > >> So, most people ignore JIRA messages, and the ones who want to track
>> new
>> > >> tickets,
>> > >> may go to JIRA and configure their own filters. I don't see, why we
>> need
>> > >> to
>> > >> keep the forwarding to dev list.
>> > >>
>> > >> Denis
>> > >>
>> > >> пт, 16 нояб. 2018 г. в 22:30, Павлухин Иван :
>> > >>
>> > >> > Hi,
>> > >> >
>> > >> > Can we collect opinions about keeping messages of mentioned types
>> on
>> > >> > dev list? From my side (+ means keeping on dev list):
>> > >> > TC bot +
>> > >> > Jira -
>> > >> > GitHub -
>> > >> > пт, 16 нояб. 2018 г. в 22:25, Dmitriy Pavlov :
>> > >> > >
>> > >> > > Importance is hardly definable and it is not possible that
>> importance
>> > >> is
>> > >> > > equal for everyone. You can say about other human emails it is
>> not
>> > >> > > important if some product area is not interesting for you. So I
>> can
>> > >> only
>> > >> > > understand the terms: email needs action/does not need action.
>> > >> > >
>> > >> > > If some contributor never reacted to JIRA notification he or she
>> may
>> > >> > think
>> > >> > > it is not important. But even we have a majority of contributors
>> who
>> > >> > > ignores JIRA, it does not mean it is a right decision to switch
>> it
>> > >> off.
>> > >> > We
>> > >> > > don't play in a democracy, hopefully.
>> > >> > >
>> > >> > > My suggestion now: keep showing an excellent example of
>> human-human
>> > >> > > interaction, announces, etc from all Ignite veterans (especially,
>> > >> PMCs),
>> > >> > so
>> > >> > > newcomers can use the same approach.
>> > >> > >
>> > >> > > If PRs removal to notifications@ will show a positive tendency
>> in
>> > >> > > human-human interaction, I can easily agree with the second
>> step. Only
>> > >> > > practice is truth criteria.
>> > >> > >
>> > >> > > пт, 16 нояб. 2018 г. в 22:08, Vladimir Ozerov <
>> voze...@gridgain.com>:
>> > >> > >
>> > >> > > > We want important emails to be easily observable. This is the
>> only
>> > >> > goal.
>> > >> > > >
>> > >> > > > пт, 16 нояб. 2018 г. в 21:51, Dmitriy Pavlov <
>> dpav...@apache.org>:
>> > >> > > >
>> > >> > > > > I suggest to think in another paradigm, let's not classify
>> emails
>> > >> to
>> > >> > be
>> > >> > > > > automatically issued or not, lets separate emails to other
>> > >> classes: a
>> > >> > > > > needed action from humans or not needed.
>> > >> > > > >
>> > >> > > > > If you don't have any interest in a change announced by JIRA
>> issue
>> > >> > > > created
>> > >> > > > > email, you can just skip. If you can help with comments,
>> review,
>> > >> > etc, you
>> > >> > > > > can become watcher or comment ticket, you can also point to
>> > >> > duplicate.
>> > >> > > > >
>> > >> > > >

Re: Time to remove automated messages from the devlist?

[Dmitriy Pavlov]

Please start a vote according to
https://www.apache.org/foundation/voting.html
Anyone can start a vote, you don't need to be a PMC.

I don't feel it is a very important issue to remove notifications from the
list, as it can be easily filtered out using mail setup. But if someone
feels it is really disturbing, please go ahead. I'm ok with GitHub
redirection, but I will not drive this topic.

ср, 21 нояб. 2018 г. в 11:40, Павлухин Иван :

> Dmitriy, let's proceed with it.
> вт, 20 нояб. 2018 г. в 23:20, Dmitriy Pavlov :
> >
> > One more thing I want to emphasize here. We can't just remove messages,
> it
> > _must_ be sent to some list, which is why we need some additional list,
> > e.g. notifications@ for this.
> >
> > So only one option to proceed here is to run a formal vote on list
> creation
> > and redirection of github/gitbox messages to a new list.
> >
> > пн, 19 нояб. 2018 г. в 18:23, Dmitriy Pavlov :
> >
> > > Denis, we need because contributors do not announce their
> > > intent/designs/etc manually. It is the best way ever? No, of course.
> > >
> > > We have consensus on PR removal, so let's do it and see results.
> > >
> > > пн, 19 нояб. 2018 г. в 18:11, Denis Mekhanikov  >:
> > >
> > >> Dmitriy,
> > >>
> > >> If a person wants to track all new tickets, then he may go to JIRA,
> create
> > >> a filter for Ignite tickets
> > >> and subscribe to it. JIRA has a pretty flexible configuration of
> filters
> > >> and subscriptions, so you can
> > >> specify exactly what issues you are interested in, and how often you
> want
> > >> to receive these emails.
> > >> This is much more convenient and more flexible than filtering emails
> from
> > >> a
> > >> bot.
> > >>
> > >> So, most people ignore JIRA messages, and the ones who want to track
> new
> > >> tickets,
> > >> may go to JIRA and configure their own filters. I don't see, why we
> need
> > >> to
> > >> keep the forwarding to dev list.
> > >>
> > >> Denis
> > >>
> > >> пт, 16 нояб. 2018 г. в 22:30, Павлухин Иван :
> > >>
> > >> > Hi,
> > >> >
> > >> > Can we collect opinions about keeping messages of mentioned types on
> > >> > dev list? From my side (+ means keeping on dev list):
> > >> > TC bot +
> > >> > Jira -
> > >> > GitHub -
> > >> > пт, 16 нояб. 2018 г. в 22:25, Dmitriy Pavlov :
> > >> > >
> > >> > > Importance is hardly definable and it is not possible that
> importance
> > >> is
> > >> > > equal for everyone. You can say about other human emails it is not
> > >> > > important if some product area is not interesting for you. So I
> can
> > >> only
> > >> > > understand the terms: email needs action/does not need action.
> > >> > >
> > >> > > If some contributor never reacted to JIRA notification he or she
> may
> > >> > think
> > >> > > it is not important. But even we have a majority of contributors
> who
> > >> > > ignores JIRA, it does not mean it is a right decision to switch it
> > >> off.
> > >> > We
> > >> > > don't play in a democracy, hopefully.
> > >> > >
> > >> > > My suggestion now: keep showing an excellent example of
> human-human
> > >> > > interaction, announces, etc from all Ignite veterans (especially,
> > >> PMCs),
> > >> > so
> > >> > > newcomers can use the same approach.
> > >> > >
> > >> > > If PRs removal to notifications@ will show a positive tendency in
> > >> > > human-human interaction, I can easily agree with the second step.
> Only
> > >> > > practice is truth criteria.
> > >> > >
> > >> > > пт, 16 нояб. 2018 г. в 22:08, Vladimir Ozerov <
> voze...@gridgain.com>:
> > >> > >
> > >> > > > We want important emails to be easily observable. This is the
> only
> > >> > goal.
> > >> > > >
> > >> > > > пт, 16 нояб. 2018 г. в 21:51, Dmitriy Pavlov <
> dpav...@apache.org>:
> > >> > > >
> > >> > > > > I suggest to think in another paradigm, let's not classify
> emails
> > >> to
> > >> > be
> > >> > > > > automatically issued or not, lets separate emails to other
> > >> classes: a
> > >> > > > > needed action from humans or not needed.
> > >> > > > >
> > >> > > > > If you don't have any interest in a change announced by JIRA
> issue
> > >> > > > created
> > >> > > > > email, you can just skip. If you can help with comments,
> review,
> > >> > etc, you
> > >> > > > > can become watcher or comment ticket, you can also point to
> > >> > duplicate.
> > >> > > > >
> > >> > > > > In that paradigm,
> > >> > > > > A) PR is perfectly ok to be redirected to notifications@ .-
> PR
> > >> > creation
> > >> > > > > does not require any action from anyone.
> > >> > > > > B) JIRA - I'm not sure (maybe as a second step, if we will see
> > >> > > > contributors
> > >> > > > > will write about important tickets). And instead we can
> discuss
> > >> Open
> > >> > ->
> > >> > > > > Patch available transition, as a reviewer needed.
> > >> > > > > C) TC Bot - I'm sure - should never be redirected. Hopefully,
> it
> > >> > will not
> > >> > > > > generate any alerts.
> > >> > > > >
> > >> > > > > I hardly understand goal: is our target metric -

Re: Time to remove automated messages from the devlist?

[Павлухин Иван]

Dmitriy, let's proceed with it.
вт, 20 нояб. 2018 г. в 23:20, Dmitriy Pavlov :
>
> One more thing I want to emphasize here. We can't just remove messages, it
> _must_ be sent to some list, which is why we need some additional list,
> e.g. notifications@ for this.
>
> So only one option to proceed here is to run a formal vote on list creation
> and redirection of github/gitbox messages to a new list.
>
> пн, 19 нояб. 2018 г. в 18:23, Dmitriy Pavlov :
>
> > Denis, we need because contributors do not announce their
> > intent/designs/etc manually. It is the best way ever? No, of course.
> >
> > We have consensus on PR removal, so let's do it and see results.
> >
> > пн, 19 нояб. 2018 г. в 18:11, Denis Mekhanikov :
> >
> >> Dmitriy,
> >>
> >> If a person wants to track all new tickets, then he may go to JIRA, create
> >> a filter for Ignite tickets
> >> and subscribe to it. JIRA has a pretty flexible configuration of filters
> >> and subscriptions, so you can
> >> specify exactly what issues you are interested in, and how often you want
> >> to receive these emails.
> >> This is much more convenient and more flexible than filtering emails from
> >> a
> >> bot.
> >>
> >> So, most people ignore JIRA messages, and the ones who want to track new
> >> tickets,
> >> may go to JIRA and configure their own filters. I don't see, why we need
> >> to
> >> keep the forwarding to dev list.
> >>
> >> Denis
> >>
> >> пт, 16 нояб. 2018 г. в 22:30, Павлухин Иван :
> >>
> >> > Hi,
> >> >
> >> > Can we collect opinions about keeping messages of mentioned types on
> >> > dev list? From my side (+ means keeping on dev list):
> >> > TC bot +
> >> > Jira -
> >> > GitHub -
> >> > пт, 16 нояб. 2018 г. в 22:25, Dmitriy Pavlov :
> >> > >
> >> > > Importance is hardly definable and it is not possible that importance
> >> is
> >> > > equal for everyone. You can say about other human emails it is not
> >> > > important if some product area is not interesting for you. So I can
> >> only
> >> > > understand the terms: email needs action/does not need action.
> >> > >
> >> > > If some contributor never reacted to JIRA notification he or she may
> >> > think
> >> > > it is not important. But even we have a majority of contributors who
> >> > > ignores JIRA, it does not mean it is a right decision to switch it
> >> off.
> >> > We
> >> > > don't play in a democracy, hopefully.
> >> > >
> >> > > My suggestion now: keep showing an excellent example of human-human
> >> > > interaction, announces, etc from all Ignite veterans (especially,
> >> PMCs),
> >> > so
> >> > > newcomers can use the same approach.
> >> > >
> >> > > If PRs removal to notifications@ will show a positive tendency in
> >> > > human-human interaction, I can easily agree with the second step. Only
> >> > > practice is truth criteria.
> >> > >
> >> > > пт, 16 нояб. 2018 г. в 22:08, Vladimir Ozerov :
> >> > >
> >> > > > We want important emails to be easily observable. This is the only
> >> > goal.
> >> > > >
> >> > > > пт, 16 нояб. 2018 г. в 21:51, Dmitriy Pavlov :
> >> > > >
> >> > > > > I suggest to think in another paradigm, let's not classify emails
> >> to
> >> > be
> >> > > > > automatically issued or not, lets separate emails to other
> >> classes: a
> >> > > > > needed action from humans or not needed.
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > > If you don't have any interest in a change announced by JIRA issue
> >> > > > created
> >> > > > > email, you can just skip. If you can help with comments, review,
> >> > etc, you
> >> > > > > can become watcher or comment ticket, you can also point to
> >> > duplicate.
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > > In that paradigm,
> >> > > > > A) PR is perfectly ok to be redirected to notifications@ .- PR
> >> > creation
> >> > > > > does not require any action from anyone.
> >> > > > > B) JIRA - I'm not sure (maybe as a second step, if we will see
> >> > > > contributors
> >> > > > > will write about important tickets). And instead we can discuss
> >> Open
> >> > ->
> >> > > > > Patch available transition, as a reviewer needed.
> >> > > > > C) TC Bot - I'm sure - should never be redirected. Hopefully, it
> >> > will not
> >> > > > > generate any alerts.
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > > I hardly understand goal: is our target metric - message count to
> >> be
> >> > as
> >> > > > > less as possible? (extreme - 0 emails, let's not write here at
> >> all,
> >> > we
> >> > > > can
> >> > > > > get 0). Who can explain what do we want from redirection?
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > > пт, 16 нояб. 2018 г. в 16:28, Sergi Vladykin <
> >> > sergi.vlady...@gmail.com>:
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > > > I also would like to separate all the automated stuff.
> >> > > > > >
> >> > > > > > Sergi
> >> > > > > >
> >> > > > > > пт, 16 нояб. 2018 г. в 13:58, Павлухин Иван <
> >> vololo...@gmail.com>:
> >> > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > Oleg,
> >> > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > I join to Dmitriy. I found your summary quite interesting.
> >> > > > > > > пт, 16 нояб. 2018 г. в 13:12, Dmitriy Pavlov <

Re: Time to remove automated messages from the devlist?

[Dmitriy Pavlov]

One more thing I want to emphasize here. We can't just remove messages, it
_must_ be sent to some list, which is why we need some additional list,
e.g. notifications@ for this.

So only one option to proceed here is to run a formal vote on list creation
and redirection of github/gitbox messages to a new list.

пн, 19 нояб. 2018 г. в 18:23, Dmitriy Pavlov :

> Denis, we need because contributors do not announce their
> intent/designs/etc manually. It is the best way ever? No, of course.
>
> We have consensus on PR removal, so let's do it and see results.
>
> пн, 19 нояб. 2018 г. в 18:11, Denis Mekhanikov :
>
>> Dmitriy,
>>
>> If a person wants to track all new tickets, then he may go to JIRA, create
>> a filter for Ignite tickets
>> and subscribe to it. JIRA has a pretty flexible configuration of filters
>> and subscriptions, so you can
>> specify exactly what issues you are interested in, and how often you want
>> to receive these emails.
>> This is much more convenient and more flexible than filtering emails from
>> a
>> bot.
>>
>> So, most people ignore JIRA messages, and the ones who want to track new
>> tickets,
>> may go to JIRA and configure their own filters. I don't see, why we need
>> to
>> keep the forwarding to dev list.
>>
>> Denis
>>
>> пт, 16 нояб. 2018 г. в 22:30, Павлухин Иван :
>>
>> > Hi,
>> >
>> > Can we collect opinions about keeping messages of mentioned types on
>> > dev list? From my side (+ means keeping on dev list):
>> > TC bot +
>> > Jira -
>> > GitHub -
>> > пт, 16 нояб. 2018 г. в 22:25, Dmitriy Pavlov :
>> > >
>> > > Importance is hardly definable and it is not possible that importance
>> is
>> > > equal for everyone. You can say about other human emails it is not
>> > > important if some product area is not interesting for you. So I can
>> only
>> > > understand the terms: email needs action/does not need action.
>> > >
>> > > If some contributor never reacted to JIRA notification he or she may
>> > think
>> > > it is not important. But even we have a majority of contributors who
>> > > ignores JIRA, it does not mean it is a right decision to switch it
>> off.
>> > We
>> > > don't play in a democracy, hopefully.
>> > >
>> > > My suggestion now: keep showing an excellent example of human-human
>> > > interaction, announces, etc from all Ignite veterans (especially,
>> PMCs),
>> > so
>> > > newcomers can use the same approach.
>> > >
>> > > If PRs removal to notifications@ will show a positive tendency in
>> > > human-human interaction, I can easily agree with the second step. Only
>> > > practice is truth criteria.
>> > >
>> > > пт, 16 нояб. 2018 г. в 22:08, Vladimir Ozerov :
>> > >
>> > > > We want important emails to be easily observable. This is the only
>> > goal.
>> > > >
>> > > > пт, 16 нояб. 2018 г. в 21:51, Dmitriy Pavlov :
>> > > >
>> > > > > I suggest to think in another paradigm, let's not classify emails
>> to
>> > be
>> > > > > automatically issued or not, lets separate emails to other
>> classes: a
>> > > > > needed action from humans or not needed.
>> > > > >
>> > > > > If you don't have any interest in a change announced by JIRA issue
>> > > > created
>> > > > > email, you can just skip. If you can help with comments, review,
>> > etc, you
>> > > > > can become watcher or comment ticket, you can also point to
>> > duplicate.
>> > > > >
>> > > > > In that paradigm,
>> > > > > A) PR is perfectly ok to be redirected to notifications@ .- PR
>> > creation
>> > > > > does not require any action from anyone.
>> > > > > B) JIRA - I'm not sure (maybe as a second step, if we will see
>> > > > contributors
>> > > > > will write about important tickets). And instead we can discuss
>> Open
>> > ->
>> > > > > Patch available transition, as a reviewer needed.
>> > > > > C) TC Bot - I'm sure - should never be redirected. Hopefully, it
>> > will not
>> > > > > generate any alerts.
>> > > > >
>> > > > > I hardly understand goal: is our target metric - message count to
>> be
>> > as
>> > > > > less as possible? (extreme - 0 emails, let's not write here at
>> all,
>> > we
>> > > > can
>> > > > > get 0). Who can explain what do we want from redirection?
>> > > > >
>> > > > >
>> > > > > пт, 16 нояб. 2018 г. в 16:28, Sergi Vladykin <
>> > sergi.vlady...@gmail.com>:
>> > > > >
>> > > > > > I also would like to separate all the automated stuff.
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > > Sergi
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > > пт, 16 нояб. 2018 г. в 13:58, Павлухин Иван <
>> vololo...@gmail.com>:
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > > > Oleg,
>> > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > I join to Dmitriy. I found your summary quite interesting.
>> > > > > > > пт, 16 нояб. 2018 г. в 13:12, Dmitriy Pavlov <
>> dpav...@apache.org
>> > >:
>> > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > Oleg,
>> > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > excellent research! It allows me to avoid bothering
>> community
>> > > > > > developers
>> > > > > > > > once again.
>> > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > Thank you for your efforts and for contributing to this
>> > discussion.
>> > > > > 

Re: Time to remove automated messages from the devlist?

[Dmitriy Pavlov]

Denis, we need because contributors do not announce their
intent/designs/etc manually. It is the best way ever? No, of course.

We have consensus on PR removal, so let's do it and see results.

пн, 19 нояб. 2018 г. в 18:11, Denis Mekhanikov :

> Dmitriy,
>
> If a person wants to track all new tickets, then he may go to JIRA, create
> a filter for Ignite tickets
> and subscribe to it. JIRA has a pretty flexible configuration of filters
> and subscriptions, so you can
> specify exactly what issues you are interested in, and how often you want
> to receive these emails.
> This is much more convenient and more flexible than filtering emails from a
> bot.
>
> So, most people ignore JIRA messages, and the ones who want to track new
> tickets,
> may go to JIRA and configure their own filters. I don't see, why we need to
> keep the forwarding to dev list.
>
> Denis
>
> пт, 16 нояб. 2018 г. в 22:30, Павлухин Иван :
>
> > Hi,
> >
> > Can we collect opinions about keeping messages of mentioned types on
> > dev list? From my side (+ means keeping on dev list):
> > TC bot +
> > Jira -
> > GitHub -
> > пт, 16 нояб. 2018 г. в 22:25, Dmitriy Pavlov :
> > >
> > > Importance is hardly definable and it is not possible that importance
> is
> > > equal for everyone. You can say about other human emails it is not
> > > important if some product area is not interesting for you. So I can
> only
> > > understand the terms: email needs action/does not need action.
> > >
> > > If some contributor never reacted to JIRA notification he or she may
> > think
> > > it is not important. But even we have a majority of contributors who
> > > ignores JIRA, it does not mean it is a right decision to switch it off.
> > We
> > > don't play in a democracy, hopefully.
> > >
> > > My suggestion now: keep showing an excellent example of human-human
> > > interaction, announces, etc from all Ignite veterans (especially,
> PMCs),
> > so
> > > newcomers can use the same approach.
> > >
> > > If PRs removal to notifications@ will show a positive tendency in
> > > human-human interaction, I can easily agree with the second step. Only
> > > practice is truth criteria.
> > >
> > > пт, 16 нояб. 2018 г. в 22:08, Vladimir Ozerov :
> > >
> > > > We want important emails to be easily observable. This is the only
> > goal.
> > > >
> > > > пт, 16 нояб. 2018 г. в 21:51, Dmitriy Pavlov :
> > > >
> > > > > I suggest to think in another paradigm, let's not classify emails
> to
> > be
> > > > > automatically issued or not, lets separate emails to other
> classes: a
> > > > > needed action from humans or not needed.
> > > > >
> > > > > If you don't have any interest in a change announced by JIRA issue
> > > > created
> > > > > email, you can just skip. If you can help with comments, review,
> > etc, you
> > > > > can become watcher or comment ticket, you can also point to
> > duplicate.
> > > > >
> > > > > In that paradigm,
> > > > > A) PR is perfectly ok to be redirected to notifications@ .- PR
> > creation
> > > > > does not require any action from anyone.
> > > > > B) JIRA - I'm not sure (maybe as a second step, if we will see
> > > > contributors
> > > > > will write about important tickets). And instead we can discuss
> Open
> > ->
> > > > > Patch available transition, as a reviewer needed.
> > > > > C) TC Bot - I'm sure - should never be redirected. Hopefully, it
> > will not
> > > > > generate any alerts.
> > > > >
> > > > > I hardly understand goal: is our target metric - message count to
> be
> > as
> > > > > less as possible? (extreme - 0 emails, let's not write here at all,
> > we
> > > > can
> > > > > get 0). Who can explain what do we want from redirection?
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > пт, 16 нояб. 2018 г. в 16:28, Sergi Vladykin <
> > sergi.vlady...@gmail.com>:
> > > > >
> > > > > > I also would like to separate all the automated stuff.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Sergi
> > > > > >
> > > > > > пт, 16 нояб. 2018 г. в 13:58, Павлухин Иван  >:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > Oleg,
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I join to Dmitriy. I found your summary quite interesting.
> > > > > > > пт, 16 нояб. 2018 г. в 13:12, Dmitriy Pavlov <
> dpav...@apache.org
> > >:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Oleg,
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > excellent research! It allows me to avoid bothering community
> > > > > > developers
> > > > > > > > once again.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Thank you for your efforts and for contributing to this
> > discussion.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Sincerely,
> > > > > > > > Dmitriy Pavlov
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г. в 23:14, Denis Magda  >:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Let's move git notifications to a separate list. As for
> > JIRA, not
> > > > > > sure
> > > > > > > it
> > > > > > > > > bothers me, it took me several minutes to set up all the
> > filters
> > > > to
> > > > > > > spread
> > > > > > > > > the messages out across specific folders. Otherwise, some
> of
> > us
> > > > > might
> > > > > > > > > ignore sub

Re: Time to remove automated messages from the devlist?

[Denis Mekhanikov]

Dmitriy,

If a person wants to track all new tickets, then he may go to JIRA, create
a filter for Ignite tickets
and subscribe to it. JIRA has a pretty flexible configuration of filters
and subscriptions, so you can
specify exactly what issues you are interested in, and how often you want
to receive these emails.
This is much more convenient and more flexible than filtering emails from a
bot.

So, most people ignore JIRA messages, and the ones who want to track new
tickets,
may go to JIRA and configure their own filters. I don't see, why we need to
keep the forwarding to dev list.

Denis

пт, 16 нояб. 2018 г. в 22:30, Павлухин Иван :

> Hi,
>
> Can we collect opinions about keeping messages of mentioned types on
> dev list? From my side (+ means keeping on dev list):
> TC bot +
> Jira -
> GitHub -
> пт, 16 нояб. 2018 г. в 22:25, Dmitriy Pavlov :
> >
> > Importance is hardly definable and it is not possible that importance is
> > equal for everyone. You can say about other human emails it is not
> > important if some product area is not interesting for you. So I can only
> > understand the terms: email needs action/does not need action.
> >
> > If some contributor never reacted to JIRA notification he or she may
> think
> > it is not important. But even we have a majority of contributors who
> > ignores JIRA, it does not mean it is a right decision to switch it off.
> We
> > don't play in a democracy, hopefully.
> >
> > My suggestion now: keep showing an excellent example of human-human
> > interaction, announces, etc from all Ignite veterans (especially, PMCs),
> so
> > newcomers can use the same approach.
> >
> > If PRs removal to notifications@ will show a positive tendency in
> > human-human interaction, I can easily agree with the second step. Only
> > practice is truth criteria.
> >
> > пт, 16 нояб. 2018 г. в 22:08, Vladimir Ozerov :
> >
> > > We want important emails to be easily observable. This is the only
> goal.
> > >
> > > пт, 16 нояб. 2018 г. в 21:51, Dmitriy Pavlov :
> > >
> > > > I suggest to think in another paradigm, let's not classify emails to
> be
> > > > automatically issued or not, lets separate emails to other classes: a
> > > > needed action from humans or not needed.
> > > >
> > > > If you don't have any interest in a change announced by JIRA issue
> > > created
> > > > email, you can just skip. If you can help with comments, review,
> etc, you
> > > > can become watcher or comment ticket, you can also point to
> duplicate.
> > > >
> > > > In that paradigm,
> > > > A) PR is perfectly ok to be redirected to notifications@ .- PR
> creation
> > > > does not require any action from anyone.
> > > > B) JIRA - I'm not sure (maybe as a second step, if we will see
> > > contributors
> > > > will write about important tickets). And instead we can discuss Open
> ->
> > > > Patch available transition, as a reviewer needed.
> > > > C) TC Bot - I'm sure - should never be redirected. Hopefully, it
> will not
> > > > generate any alerts.
> > > >
> > > > I hardly understand goal: is our target metric - message count to be
> as
> > > > less as possible? (extreme - 0 emails, let's not write here at all,
> we
> > > can
> > > > get 0). Who can explain what do we want from redirection?
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > пт, 16 нояб. 2018 г. в 16:28, Sergi Vladykin <
> sergi.vlady...@gmail.com>:
> > > >
> > > > > I also would like to separate all the automated stuff.
> > > > >
> > > > > Sergi
> > > > >
> > > > > пт, 16 нояб. 2018 г. в 13:58, Павлухин Иван :
> > > > >
> > > > > > Oleg,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I join to Dmitriy. I found your summary quite interesting.
> > > > > > пт, 16 нояб. 2018 г. в 13:12, Dmitriy Pavlov  >:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Oleg,
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > excellent research! It allows me to avoid bothering community
> > > > > developers
> > > > > > > once again.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Thank you for your efforts and for contributing to this
> discussion.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Sincerely,
> > > > > > > Dmitriy Pavlov
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г. в 23:14, Denis Magda :
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Let's move git notifications to a separate list. As for
> JIRA, not
> > > > > sure
> > > > > > it
> > > > > > > > bothers me, it took me several minutes to set up all the
> filters
> > > to
> > > > > > spread
> > > > > > > > the messages out across specific folders. Otherwise, some of
> us
> > > > might
> > > > > > > > ignore subscribing to jira-list and would miss notifications
> when
> > > > > their
> > > > > > > > input is needed.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > --
> > > > > > > > Denis
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > On Thu, Nov 15, 2018 at 12:03 PM Vladimir Ozerov <
> > > > > voze...@gridgain.com
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Dmitry,
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > I am not referring to some "authoritative ASF member" as a
> > > guide
> > > > > for
> > > > > > us.
> > > > > > > > We
> > > > > > > > > are on our own

Re: Time to remove automated messages from the devlist?

[Павлухин Иван]

Hi,

Can we collect opinions about keeping messages of mentioned types on
dev list? From my side (+ means keeping on dev list):
TC bot +
Jira -
GitHub -
пт, 16 нояб. 2018 г. в 22:25, Dmitriy Pavlov :
>
> Importance is hardly definable and it is not possible that importance is
> equal for everyone. You can say about other human emails it is not
> important if some product area is not interesting for you. So I can only
> understand the terms: email needs action/does not need action.
>
> If some contributor never reacted to JIRA notification he or she may think
> it is not important. But even we have a majority of contributors who
> ignores JIRA, it does not mean it is a right decision to switch it off. We
> don't play in a democracy, hopefully.
>
> My suggestion now: keep showing an excellent example of human-human
> interaction, announces, etc from all Ignite veterans (especially, PMCs), so
> newcomers can use the same approach.
>
> If PRs removal to notifications@ will show a positive tendency in
> human-human interaction, I can easily agree with the second step. Only
> practice is truth criteria.
>
> пт, 16 нояб. 2018 г. в 22:08, Vladimir Ozerov :
>
> > We want important emails to be easily observable. This is the only goal.
> >
> > пт, 16 нояб. 2018 г. в 21:51, Dmitriy Pavlov :
> >
> > > I suggest to think in another paradigm, let's not classify emails to be
> > > automatically issued or not, lets separate emails to other classes: a
> > > needed action from humans or not needed.
> > >
> > > If you don't have any interest in a change announced by JIRA issue
> > created
> > > email, you can just skip. If you can help with comments, review, etc, you
> > > can become watcher or comment ticket, you can also point to duplicate.
> > >
> > > In that paradigm,
> > > A) PR is perfectly ok to be redirected to notifications@ .- PR creation
> > > does not require any action from anyone.
> > > B) JIRA - I'm not sure (maybe as a second step, if we will see
> > contributors
> > > will write about important tickets). And instead we can discuss Open ->
> > > Patch available transition, as a reviewer needed.
> > > C) TC Bot - I'm sure - should never be redirected. Hopefully, it will not
> > > generate any alerts.
> > >
> > > I hardly understand goal: is our target metric - message count to be as
> > > less as possible? (extreme - 0 emails, let's not write here at all, we
> > can
> > > get 0). Who can explain what do we want from redirection?
> > >
> > >
> > > пт, 16 нояб. 2018 г. в 16:28, Sergi Vladykin :
> > >
> > > > I also would like to separate all the automated stuff.
> > > >
> > > > Sergi
> > > >
> > > > пт, 16 нояб. 2018 г. в 13:58, Павлухин Иван :
> > > >
> > > > > Oleg,
> > > > >
> > > > > I join to Dmitriy. I found your summary quite interesting.
> > > > > пт, 16 нояб. 2018 г. в 13:12, Dmitriy Pavlov :
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Oleg,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > excellent research! It allows me to avoid bothering community
> > > > developers
> > > > > > once again.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Thank you for your efforts and for contributing to this discussion.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Sincerely,
> > > > > > Dmitriy Pavlov
> > > > > >
> > > > > > чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г. в 23:14, Denis Magda :
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > Let's move git notifications to a separate list. As for JIRA, not
> > > > sure
> > > > > it
> > > > > > > bothers me, it took me several minutes to set up all the filters
> > to
> > > > > spread
> > > > > > > the messages out across specific folders. Otherwise, some of us
> > > might
> > > > > > > ignore subscribing to jira-list and would miss notifications when
> > > > their
> > > > > > > input is needed.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > --
> > > > > > > Denis
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > On Thu, Nov 15, 2018 at 12:03 PM Vladimir Ozerov <
> > > > voze...@gridgain.com
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Dmitry,
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I am not referring to some "authoritative ASF member" as a
> > guide
> > > > for
> > > > > us.
> > > > > > > We
> > > > > > > > are on our own. What I meant is that at some point in time we
> > > were
> > > > > > > pointed
> > > > > > > > to an idea, that tons of automated messages has nothing to do
> > > with
> > > > > > > healthy
> > > > > > > > community. Which seems pretty reasonable to me.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > On Thu, Nov 15, 2018 at 10:15 PM Dmitriy Pavlov <
> > > > dpav...@apache.org>
> > > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > What incubator mentor do you refer to? Incubator member are
> > asf
> > > > > members
> > > > > > > > as
> > > > > > > > > well.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > I was involved at least to 3 discussions at the list started
> > > from
> > > > > Jira
> > > > > > > > > issue created.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > If others were not involved, it do not convince me its is not
> > > > > useful to
> > > > > > > > > keep forwarding.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г., 21:23 Vladim

Re: Time to remove automated messages from the devlist?

[Dmitriy Pavlov]

Importance is hardly definable and it is not possible that importance is
equal for everyone. You can say about other human emails it is not
important if some product area is not interesting for you. So I can only
understand the terms: email needs action/does not need action.

If some contributor never reacted to JIRA notification he or she may think
it is not important. But even we have a majority of contributors who
ignores JIRA, it does not mean it is a right decision to switch it off. We
don't play in a democracy, hopefully.

My suggestion now: keep showing an excellent example of human-human
interaction, announces, etc from all Ignite veterans (especially, PMCs), so
newcomers can use the same approach.

If PRs removal to notifications@ will show a positive tendency in
human-human interaction, I can easily agree with the second step. Only
practice is truth criteria.

пт, 16 нояб. 2018 г. в 22:08, Vladimir Ozerov :

> We want important emails to be easily observable. This is the only goal.
>
> пт, 16 нояб. 2018 г. в 21:51, Dmitriy Pavlov :
>
> > I suggest to think in another paradigm, let's not classify emails to be
> > automatically issued or not, lets separate emails to other classes: a
> > needed action from humans or not needed.
> >
> > If you don't have any interest in a change announced by JIRA issue
> created
> > email, you can just skip. If you can help with comments, review, etc, you
> > can become watcher or comment ticket, you can also point to duplicate.
> >
> > In that paradigm,
> > A) PR is perfectly ok to be redirected to notifications@ .- PR creation
> > does not require any action from anyone.
> > B) JIRA - I'm not sure (maybe as a second step, if we will see
> contributors
> > will write about important tickets). And instead we can discuss Open ->
> > Patch available transition, as a reviewer needed.
> > C) TC Bot - I'm sure - should never be redirected. Hopefully, it will not
> > generate any alerts.
> >
> > I hardly understand goal: is our target metric - message count to be as
> > less as possible? (extreme - 0 emails, let's not write here at all, we
> can
> > get 0). Who can explain what do we want from redirection?
> >
> >
> > пт, 16 нояб. 2018 г. в 16:28, Sergi Vladykin :
> >
> > > I also would like to separate all the automated stuff.
> > >
> > > Sergi
> > >
> > > пт, 16 нояб. 2018 г. в 13:58, Павлухин Иван :
> > >
> > > > Oleg,
> > > >
> > > > I join to Dmitriy. I found your summary quite interesting.
> > > > пт, 16 нояб. 2018 г. в 13:12, Dmitriy Pavlov :
> > > > >
> > > > > Oleg,
> > > > >
> > > > > excellent research! It allows me to avoid bothering community
> > > developers
> > > > > once again.
> > > > >
> > > > > Thank you for your efforts and for contributing to this discussion.
> > > > >
> > > > > Sincerely,
> > > > > Dmitriy Pavlov
> > > > >
> > > > > чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г. в 23:14, Denis Magda :
> > > > >
> > > > > > Let's move git notifications to a separate list. As for JIRA, not
> > > sure
> > > > it
> > > > > > bothers me, it took me several minutes to set up all the filters
> to
> > > > spread
> > > > > > the messages out across specific folders. Otherwise, some of us
> > might
> > > > > > ignore subscribing to jira-list and would miss notifications when
> > > their
> > > > > > input is needed.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --
> > > > > > Denis
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On Thu, Nov 15, 2018 at 12:03 PM Vladimir Ozerov <
> > > voze...@gridgain.com
> > > > >
> > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > Dmitry,
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I am not referring to some "authoritative ASF member" as a
> guide
> > > for
> > > > us.
> > > > > > We
> > > > > > > are on our own. What I meant is that at some point in time we
> > were
> > > > > > pointed
> > > > > > > to an idea, that tons of automated messages has nothing to do
> > with
> > > > > > healthy
> > > > > > > community. Which seems pretty reasonable to me.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > On Thu, Nov 15, 2018 at 10:15 PM Dmitriy Pavlov <
> > > dpav...@apache.org>
> > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > What incubator mentor do you refer to? Incubator member are
> asf
> > > > members
> > > > > > > as
> > > > > > > > well.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I was involved at least to 3 discussions at the list started
> > from
> > > > Jira
> > > > > > > > issue created.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > If others were not involved, it do not convince me its is not
> > > > useful to
> > > > > > > > keep forwarding.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г., 21:23 Vladimir Ozerov <
> > > voze...@gridgain.com
> > > > >:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Dmitry,
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > What Apache member do you refer to?
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г. в 21:10, Dmitriy Pavlov <
> > > dpav...@apache.org
> > > > >:
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > How do you know what to watch if new tickets are not
> > > forwarded?
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Again, PRs are ok to remov

Re: Time to remove automated messages from the devlist?

[Vladimir Ozerov]

We want important emails to be easily observable. This is the only goal.

пт, 16 нояб. 2018 г. в 21:51, Dmitriy Pavlov :

> I suggest to think in another paradigm, let's not classify emails to be
> automatically issued or not, lets separate emails to other classes: a
> needed action from humans or not needed.
>
> If you don't have any interest in a change announced by JIRA issue created
> email, you can just skip. If you can help with comments, review, etc, you
> can become watcher or comment ticket, you can also point to duplicate.
>
> In that paradigm,
> A) PR is perfectly ok to be redirected to notifications@ .- PR creation
> does not require any action from anyone.
> B) JIRA - I'm not sure (maybe as a second step, if we will see contributors
> will write about important tickets). And instead we can discuss Open ->
> Patch available transition, as a reviewer needed.
> C) TC Bot - I'm sure - should never be redirected. Hopefully, it will not
> generate any alerts.
>
> I hardly understand goal: is our target metric - message count to be as
> less as possible? (extreme - 0 emails, let's not write here at all, we can
> get 0). Who can explain what do we want from redirection?
>
>
> пт, 16 нояб. 2018 г. в 16:28, Sergi Vladykin :
>
> > I also would like to separate all the automated stuff.
> >
> > Sergi
> >
> > пт, 16 нояб. 2018 г. в 13:58, Павлухин Иван :
> >
> > > Oleg,
> > >
> > > I join to Dmitriy. I found your summary quite interesting.
> > > пт, 16 нояб. 2018 г. в 13:12, Dmitriy Pavlov :
> > > >
> > > > Oleg,
> > > >
> > > > excellent research! It allows me to avoid bothering community
> > developers
> > > > once again.
> > > >
> > > > Thank you for your efforts and for contributing to this discussion.
> > > >
> > > > Sincerely,
> > > > Dmitriy Pavlov
> > > >
> > > > чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г. в 23:14, Denis Magda :
> > > >
> > > > > Let's move git notifications to a separate list. As for JIRA, not
> > sure
> > > it
> > > > > bothers me, it took me several minutes to set up all the filters to
> > > spread
> > > > > the messages out across specific folders. Otherwise, some of us
> might
> > > > > ignore subscribing to jira-list and would miss notifications when
> > their
> > > > > input is needed.
> > > > >
> > > > > --
> > > > > Denis
> > > > >
> > > > > On Thu, Nov 15, 2018 at 12:03 PM Vladimir Ozerov <
> > voze...@gridgain.com
> > > >
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > Dmitry,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I am not referring to some "authoritative ASF member" as a guide
> > for
> > > us.
> > > > > We
> > > > > > are on our own. What I meant is that at some point in time we
> were
> > > > > pointed
> > > > > > to an idea, that tons of automated messages has nothing to do
> with
> > > > > healthy
> > > > > > community. Which seems pretty reasonable to me.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On Thu, Nov 15, 2018 at 10:15 PM Dmitriy Pavlov <
> > dpav...@apache.org>
> > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > What incubator mentor do you refer to? Incubator member are asf
> > > members
> > > > > > as
> > > > > > > well.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I was involved at least to 3 discussions at the list started
> from
> > > Jira
> > > > > > > issue created.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > If others were not involved, it do not convince me its is not
> > > useful to
> > > > > > > keep forwarding.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г., 21:23 Vladimir Ozerov <
> > voze...@gridgain.com
> > > >:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Dmitry,
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > What Apache member do you refer to?
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г. в 21:10, Dmitriy Pavlov <
> > dpav...@apache.org
> > > >:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > How do you know what to watch if new tickets are not
> > forwarded?
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Again, PRs are ok to remove since it is duplicate to jira,
> > but
> > > jira
> > > > > > > > removal
> > > > > > > > > does not make any sense for me.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Com dev folks instead suggest to forward all comments and
> all
> > > > > > activity
> > > > > > > > from
> > > > > > > > > github to the list. So if Apache member will confirm it is
> > not
> > > > > useful
> > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > > allow dev. list watchers see new issues on the list we can
> > > continue
> > > > > > > > > discussion. Openness is needed not for veterans but for all
> > > > > community
> > > > > > > > > members and users who is subscribed to the list.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г., 21:00 Pavel Tupitsyn <
> > > ptupit...@apache.org>:
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Personal emails for _watched_ JIRA tickets are very
> useful.
> > > > > > > > > > Emails to everyone are not.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > +1 for separate mailing list for all automated emails.
> > > > > > > > > > I don't think we can avoid automated emails completely,
> but
> > > dev
> > > > > > list
> > > > > > > > > should
> > > > > > > > > > be human-only.
> > > > > > > 

Re: Time to remove automated messages from the devlist?

[Dmitriy Pavlov]

I suggest to think in another paradigm, let's not classify emails to be
automatically issued or not, lets separate emails to other classes: a
needed action from humans or not needed.

If you don't have any interest in a change announced by JIRA issue created
email, you can just skip. If you can help with comments, review, etc, you
can become watcher or comment ticket, you can also point to duplicate.

In that paradigm,
A) PR is perfectly ok to be redirected to notifications@ .- PR creation
does not require any action from anyone.
B) JIRA - I'm not sure (maybe as a second step, if we will see contributors
will write about important tickets). And instead we can discuss Open ->
Patch available transition, as a reviewer needed.
C) TC Bot - I'm sure - should never be redirected. Hopefully, it will not
generate any alerts.

I hardly understand goal: is our target metric - message count to be as
less as possible? (extreme - 0 emails, let's not write here at all, we can
get 0). Who can explain what do we want from redirection?


пт, 16 нояб. 2018 г. в 16:28, Sergi Vladykin :

> I also would like to separate all the automated stuff.
>
> Sergi
>
> пт, 16 нояб. 2018 г. в 13:58, Павлухин Иван :
>
> > Oleg,
> >
> > I join to Dmitriy. I found your summary quite interesting.
> > пт, 16 нояб. 2018 г. в 13:12, Dmitriy Pavlov :
> > >
> > > Oleg,
> > >
> > > excellent research! It allows me to avoid bothering community
> developers
> > > once again.
> > >
> > > Thank you for your efforts and for contributing to this discussion.
> > >
> > > Sincerely,
> > > Dmitriy Pavlov
> > >
> > > чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г. в 23:14, Denis Magda :
> > >
> > > > Let's move git notifications to a separate list. As for JIRA, not
> sure
> > it
> > > > bothers me, it took me several minutes to set up all the filters to
> > spread
> > > > the messages out across specific folders. Otherwise, some of us might
> > > > ignore subscribing to jira-list and would miss notifications when
> their
> > > > input is needed.
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > Denis
> > > >
> > > > On Thu, Nov 15, 2018 at 12:03 PM Vladimir Ozerov <
> voze...@gridgain.com
> > >
> > > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Dmitry,
> > > > >
> > > > > I am not referring to some "authoritative ASF member" as a guide
> for
> > us.
> > > > We
> > > > > are on our own. What I meant is that at some point in time we were
> > > > pointed
> > > > > to an idea, that tons of automated messages has nothing to do with
> > > > healthy
> > > > > community. Which seems pretty reasonable to me.
> > > > >
> > > > > On Thu, Nov 15, 2018 at 10:15 PM Dmitriy Pavlov <
> dpav...@apache.org>
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > What incubator mentor do you refer to? Incubator member are asf
> > members
> > > > > as
> > > > > > well.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I was involved at least to 3 discussions at the list started from
> > Jira
> > > > > > issue created.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > If others were not involved, it do not convince me its is not
> > useful to
> > > > > > keep forwarding.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г., 21:23 Vladimir Ozerov <
> voze...@gridgain.com
> > >:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > Dmitry,
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > What Apache member do you refer to?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г. в 21:10, Dmitriy Pavlov <
> dpav...@apache.org
> > >:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > How do you know what to watch if new tickets are not
> forwarded?
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Again, PRs are ok to remove since it is duplicate to jira,
> but
> > jira
> > > > > > > removal
> > > > > > > > does not make any sense for me.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Com dev folks instead suggest to forward all comments and all
> > > > > activity
> > > > > > > from
> > > > > > > > github to the list. So if Apache member will confirm it is
> not
> > > > useful
> > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > allow dev. list watchers see new issues on the list we can
> > continue
> > > > > > > > discussion. Openness is needed not for veterans but for all
> > > > community
> > > > > > > > members and users who is subscribed to the list.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г., 21:00 Pavel Tupitsyn <
> > ptupit...@apache.org>:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Personal emails for _watched_ JIRA tickets are very useful.
> > > > > > > > > Emails to everyone are not.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > +1 for separate mailing list for all automated emails.
> > > > > > > > > I don't think we can avoid automated emails completely, but
> > dev
> > > > > list
> > > > > > > > should
> > > > > > > > > be human-only.
> > > > > > > > > So separate list is the only way.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > On Thu, Nov 15, 2018 at 8:11 PM Vladimir Ozerov <
> > > > > > voze...@gridgain.com>
> > > > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Completely agree with Denis. Tons of generated messages
> and
> > > > > > community
> > > > > > > > > > health are not relevant. Currently we obviously have too
> > much
> >

Re: Time to remove automated messages from the devlist?

[Sergi Vladykin]

I also would like to separate all the automated stuff.

Sergi

пт, 16 нояб. 2018 г. в 13:58, Павлухин Иван :

> Oleg,
>
> I join to Dmitriy. I found your summary quite interesting.
> пт, 16 нояб. 2018 г. в 13:12, Dmitriy Pavlov :
> >
> > Oleg,
> >
> > excellent research! It allows me to avoid bothering community developers
> > once again.
> >
> > Thank you for your efforts and for contributing to this discussion.
> >
> > Sincerely,
> > Dmitriy Pavlov
> >
> > чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г. в 23:14, Denis Magda :
> >
> > > Let's move git notifications to a separate list. As for JIRA, not sure
> it
> > > bothers me, it took me several minutes to set up all the filters to
> spread
> > > the messages out across specific folders. Otherwise, some of us might
> > > ignore subscribing to jira-list and would miss notifications when their
> > > input is needed.
> > >
> > > --
> > > Denis
> > >
> > > On Thu, Nov 15, 2018 at 12:03 PM Vladimir Ozerov  >
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > > Dmitry,
> > > >
> > > > I am not referring to some "authoritative ASF member" as a guide for
> us.
> > > We
> > > > are on our own. What I meant is that at some point in time we were
> > > pointed
> > > > to an idea, that tons of automated messages has nothing to do with
> > > healthy
> > > > community. Which seems pretty reasonable to me.
> > > >
> > > > On Thu, Nov 15, 2018 at 10:15 PM Dmitriy Pavlov 
> > > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > What incubator mentor do you refer to? Incubator member are asf
> members
> > > > as
> > > > > well.
> > > > >
> > > > > I was involved at least to 3 discussions at the list started from
> Jira
> > > > > issue created.
> > > > >
> > > > > If others were not involved, it do not convince me its is not
> useful to
> > > > > keep forwarding.
> > > > >
> > > > > чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г., 21:23 Vladimir Ozerov  >:
> > > > >
> > > > > > Dmitry,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > What Apache member do you refer to?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г. в 21:10, Dmitriy Pavlov  >:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > How do you know what to watch if new tickets are not forwarded?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Again, PRs are ok to remove since it is duplicate to jira, but
> jira
> > > > > > removal
> > > > > > > does not make any sense for me.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Com dev folks instead suggest to forward all comments and all
> > > > activity
> > > > > > from
> > > > > > > github to the list. So if Apache member will confirm it is not
> > > useful
> > > > > to
> > > > > > > allow dev. list watchers see new issues on the list we can
> continue
> > > > > > > discussion. Openness is needed not for veterans but for all
> > > community
> > > > > > > members and users who is subscribed to the list.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г., 21:00 Pavel Tupitsyn <
> ptupit...@apache.org>:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Personal emails for _watched_ JIRA tickets are very useful.
> > > > > > > > Emails to everyone are not.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > +1 for separate mailing list for all automated emails.
> > > > > > > > I don't think we can avoid automated emails completely, but
> dev
> > > > list
> > > > > > > should
> > > > > > > > be human-only.
> > > > > > > > So separate list is the only way.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > On Thu, Nov 15, 2018 at 8:11 PM Vladimir Ozerov <
> > > > > voze...@gridgain.com>
> > > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Completely agree with Denis. Tons of generated messages and
> > > > > community
> > > > > > > > > health are not relevant. Currently we obviously have too
> much
> > > > > tickets
> > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > > too little communications. This is bad. But whether we
> > > accumulate
> > > > > > > > generated
> > > > > > > > > stuff here or in some other place is not important at all,
> > > > provided
> > > > > > > that
> > > > > > > > we
> > > > > > > > > can point dev-list readers to JIRA channel. And as far as
> > > > generated
> > > > > > > > stuff,
> > > > > > > > > this was one of very serious concerns of our mentors during
> > > > > > incubation
> > > > > > > > > phase - too many tickets, too little real communications.
> > > > Splitting
> > > > > > > > message
> > > > > > > > > flows will help us understand where we are.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > And another very interesting thing is how PMCs treat all
> these
> > > > > > > messages -
> > > > > > > > > they ignore them. When I come with that problem, one PMC
> > > proposed
> > > > > > > > solution
> > > > > > > > > - "just filter them like I do". Then I, another PMC,
> answered -
> > > > "I
> > > > > do
> > > > > > > not
> > > > > > > > > know how to filter them". Finally, third PMC, who also
> filters
> > > > > these
> > > > > > > > > messages, helped me create proper filter in GMail.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Isn't it demonstrative enough that so many PMC, who are
> > > expected
> > > > to
> > > > > > > > > understand project very well and follow a lot of
> activities,
> > > find
> > > >

Re: Time to remove automated messages from the devlist?

[Павлухин Иван]

Oleg,

I join to Dmitriy. I found your summary quite interesting.
пт, 16 нояб. 2018 г. в 13:12, Dmitriy Pavlov :
>
> Oleg,
>
> excellent research! It allows me to avoid bothering community developers
> once again.
>
> Thank you for your efforts and for contributing to this discussion.
>
> Sincerely,
> Dmitriy Pavlov
>
> чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г. в 23:14, Denis Magda :
>
> > Let's move git notifications to a separate list. As for JIRA, not sure it
> > bothers me, it took me several minutes to set up all the filters to spread
> > the messages out across specific folders. Otherwise, some of us might
> > ignore subscribing to jira-list and would miss notifications when their
> > input is needed.
> >
> > --
> > Denis
> >
> > On Thu, Nov 15, 2018 at 12:03 PM Vladimir Ozerov 
> > wrote:
> >
> > > Dmitry,
> > >
> > > I am not referring to some "authoritative ASF member" as a guide for us.
> > We
> > > are on our own. What I meant is that at some point in time we were
> > pointed
> > > to an idea, that tons of automated messages has nothing to do with
> > healthy
> > > community. Which seems pretty reasonable to me.
> > >
> > > On Thu, Nov 15, 2018 at 10:15 PM Dmitriy Pavlov 
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > > What incubator mentor do you refer to? Incubator member are asf members
> > > as
> > > > well.
> > > >
> > > > I was involved at least to 3 discussions at the list started from Jira
> > > > issue created.
> > > >
> > > > If others were not involved, it do not convince me its is not useful to
> > > > keep forwarding.
> > > >
> > > > чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г., 21:23 Vladimir Ozerov :
> > > >
> > > > > Dmitry,
> > > > >
> > > > > What Apache member do you refer to?
> > > > >
> > > > > чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г. в 21:10, Dmitriy Pavlov :
> > > > >
> > > > > > How do you know what to watch if new tickets are not forwarded?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Again, PRs are ok to remove since it is duplicate to jira, but jira
> > > > > removal
> > > > > > does not make any sense for me.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Com dev folks instead suggest to forward all comments and all
> > > activity
> > > > > from
> > > > > > github to the list. So if Apache member will confirm it is not
> > useful
> > > > to
> > > > > > allow dev. list watchers see new issues on the list we can continue
> > > > > > discussion. Openness is needed not for veterans but for all
> > community
> > > > > > members and users who is subscribed to the list.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г., 21:00 Pavel Tupitsyn :
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > Personal emails for _watched_ JIRA tickets are very useful.
> > > > > > > Emails to everyone are not.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > +1 for separate mailing list for all automated emails.
> > > > > > > I don't think we can avoid automated emails completely, but dev
> > > list
> > > > > > should
> > > > > > > be human-only.
> > > > > > > So separate list is the only way.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > On Thu, Nov 15, 2018 at 8:11 PM Vladimir Ozerov <
> > > > voze...@gridgain.com>
> > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Completely agree with Denis. Tons of generated messages and
> > > > community
> > > > > > > > health are not relevant. Currently we obviously have too much
> > > > tickets
> > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > too little communications. This is bad. But whether we
> > accumulate
> > > > > > > generated
> > > > > > > > stuff here or in some other place is not important at all,
> > > provided
> > > > > > that
> > > > > > > we
> > > > > > > > can point dev-list readers to JIRA channel. And as far as
> > > generated
> > > > > > > stuff,
> > > > > > > > this was one of very serious concerns of our mentors during
> > > > > incubation
> > > > > > > > phase - too many tickets, too little real communications.
> > > Splitting
> > > > > > > message
> > > > > > > > flows will help us understand where we are.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > And another very interesting thing is how PMCs treat all these
> > > > > > messages -
> > > > > > > > they ignore them. When I come with that problem, one PMC
> > proposed
> > > > > > > solution
> > > > > > > > - "just filter them like I do". Then I, another PMC, answered -
> > > "I
> > > > do
> > > > > > not
> > > > > > > > know how to filter them". Finally, third PMC, who also filters
> > > > these
> > > > > > > > messages, helped me create proper filter in GMail.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Isn't it demonstrative enough that so many PMC, who are
> > expected
> > > to
> > > > > > > > understand project very well and follow a lot of activities,
> > find
> > > > it
> > > > > > > useful
> > > > > > > > to *remove* JIRA emails from their inboxes in order to ... well
> > > ...
> > > > > > > > understand what is going on. If Ignite veterans do not find
> > these
> > > > > > > generated
> > > > > > > > emails useful, then I do not know who else can benefit from
> > them.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > On Thu, Nov 15, 2018 at 7:06 PM Denis Mekhanikov <
> > > > > > dmekhani...@gmail.com>
> > > >

Re: Time to remove automated messages from the devlist?

[Dmitriy Pavlov]

Oleg,

excellent research! It allows me to avoid bothering community developers
once again.

Thank you for your efforts and for contributing to this discussion.

Sincerely,
Dmitriy Pavlov

чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г. в 23:14, Denis Magda :

> Let's move git notifications to a separate list. As for JIRA, not sure it
> bothers me, it took me several minutes to set up all the filters to spread
> the messages out across specific folders. Otherwise, some of us might
> ignore subscribing to jira-list and would miss notifications when their
> input is needed.
>
> --
> Denis
>
> On Thu, Nov 15, 2018 at 12:03 PM Vladimir Ozerov 
> wrote:
>
> > Dmitry,
> >
> > I am not referring to some "authoritative ASF member" as a guide for us.
> We
> > are on our own. What I meant is that at some point in time we were
> pointed
> > to an idea, that tons of automated messages has nothing to do with
> healthy
> > community. Which seems pretty reasonable to me.
> >
> > On Thu, Nov 15, 2018 at 10:15 PM Dmitriy Pavlov 
> > wrote:
> >
> > > What incubator mentor do you refer to? Incubator member are asf members
> > as
> > > well.
> > >
> > > I was involved at least to 3 discussions at the list started from Jira
> > > issue created.
> > >
> > > If others were not involved, it do not convince me its is not useful to
> > > keep forwarding.
> > >
> > > чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г., 21:23 Vladimir Ozerov :
> > >
> > > > Dmitry,
> > > >
> > > > What Apache member do you refer to?
> > > >
> > > > чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г. в 21:10, Dmitriy Pavlov :
> > > >
> > > > > How do you know what to watch if new tickets are not forwarded?
> > > > >
> > > > > Again, PRs are ok to remove since it is duplicate to jira, but jira
> > > > removal
> > > > > does not make any sense for me.
> > > > >
> > > > > Com dev folks instead suggest to forward all comments and all
> > activity
> > > > from
> > > > > github to the list. So if Apache member will confirm it is not
> useful
> > > to
> > > > > allow dev. list watchers see new issues on the list we can continue
> > > > > discussion. Openness is needed not for veterans but for all
> community
> > > > > members and users who is subscribed to the list.
> > > > >
> > > > > чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г., 21:00 Pavel Tupitsyn :
> > > > >
> > > > > > Personal emails for _watched_ JIRA tickets are very useful.
> > > > > > Emails to everyone are not.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > +1 for separate mailing list for all automated emails.
> > > > > > I don't think we can avoid automated emails completely, but dev
> > list
> > > > > should
> > > > > > be human-only.
> > > > > > So separate list is the only way.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On Thu, Nov 15, 2018 at 8:11 PM Vladimir Ozerov <
> > > voze...@gridgain.com>
> > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > Completely agree with Denis. Tons of generated messages and
> > > community
> > > > > > > health are not relevant. Currently we obviously have too much
> > > tickets
> > > > > and
> > > > > > > too little communications. This is bad. But whether we
> accumulate
> > > > > > generated
> > > > > > > stuff here or in some other place is not important at all,
> > provided
> > > > > that
> > > > > > we
> > > > > > > can point dev-list readers to JIRA channel. And as far as
> > generated
> > > > > > stuff,
> > > > > > > this was one of very serious concerns of our mentors during
> > > > incubation
> > > > > > > phase - too many tickets, too little real communications.
> > Splitting
> > > > > > message
> > > > > > > flows will help us understand where we are.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > And another very interesting thing is how PMCs treat all these
> > > > > messages -
> > > > > > > they ignore them. When I come with that problem, one PMC
> proposed
> > > > > > solution
> > > > > > > - "just filter them like I do". Then I, another PMC, answered -
> > "I
> > > do
> > > > > not
> > > > > > > know how to filter them". Finally, third PMC, who also filters
> > > these
> > > > > > > messages, helped me create proper filter in GMail.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Isn't it demonstrative enough that so many PMC, who are
> expected
> > to
> > > > > > > understand project very well and follow a lot of activities,
> find
> > > it
> > > > > > useful
> > > > > > > to *remove* JIRA emails from their inboxes in order to ... well
> > ...
> > > > > > > understand what is going on. If Ignite veterans do not find
> these
> > > > > > generated
> > > > > > > emails useful, then I do not know who else can benefit from
> them.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > On Thu, Nov 15, 2018 at 7:06 PM Denis Mekhanikov <
> > > > > dmekhani...@gmail.com>
> > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Dmitriy,
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > I do believe Igniters can set up a filter.
> > > > > > > > I doesn't mean we should make them do it.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > How do JIRA messages help?
> > > > > > > > If you want do discuss something – write to dev list.
> > > > > > > > If you want a code review – write to dev list.
> > > > > > 

Re: Time to remove automated messages from the devlist?

[Denis Magda]

Let's move git notifications to a separate list. As for JIRA, not sure it
bothers me, it took me several minutes to set up all the filters to spread
the messages out across specific folders. Otherwise, some of us might
ignore subscribing to jira-list and would miss notifications when their
input is needed.

--
Denis

On Thu, Nov 15, 2018 at 12:03 PM Vladimir Ozerov 
wrote:

> Dmitry,
>
> I am not referring to some "authoritative ASF member" as a guide for us. We
> are on our own. What I meant is that at some point in time we were pointed
> to an idea, that tons of automated messages has nothing to do with healthy
> community. Which seems pretty reasonable to me.
>
> On Thu, Nov 15, 2018 at 10:15 PM Dmitriy Pavlov 
> wrote:
>
> > What incubator mentor do you refer to? Incubator member are asf members
> as
> > well.
> >
> > I was involved at least to 3 discussions at the list started from Jira
> > issue created.
> >
> > If others were not involved, it do not convince me its is not useful to
> > keep forwarding.
> >
> > чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г., 21:23 Vladimir Ozerov :
> >
> > > Dmitry,
> > >
> > > What Apache member do you refer to?
> > >
> > > чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г. в 21:10, Dmitriy Pavlov :
> > >
> > > > How do you know what to watch if new tickets are not forwarded?
> > > >
> > > > Again, PRs are ok to remove since it is duplicate to jira, but jira
> > > removal
> > > > does not make any sense for me.
> > > >
> > > > Com dev folks instead suggest to forward all comments and all
> activity
> > > from
> > > > github to the list. So if Apache member will confirm it is not useful
> > to
> > > > allow dev. list watchers see new issues on the list we can continue
> > > > discussion. Openness is needed not for veterans but for all community
> > > > members and users who is subscribed to the list.
> > > >
> > > > чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г., 21:00 Pavel Tupitsyn :
> > > >
> > > > > Personal emails for _watched_ JIRA tickets are very useful.
> > > > > Emails to everyone are not.
> > > > >
> > > > > +1 for separate mailing list for all automated emails.
> > > > > I don't think we can avoid automated emails completely, but dev
> list
> > > > should
> > > > > be human-only.
> > > > > So separate list is the only way.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > On Thu, Nov 15, 2018 at 8:11 PM Vladimir Ozerov <
> > voze...@gridgain.com>
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > Completely agree with Denis. Tons of generated messages and
> > community
> > > > > > health are not relevant. Currently we obviously have too much
> > tickets
> > > > and
> > > > > > too little communications. This is bad. But whether we accumulate
> > > > > generated
> > > > > > stuff here or in some other place is not important at all,
> provided
> > > > that
> > > > > we
> > > > > > can point dev-list readers to JIRA channel. And as far as
> generated
> > > > > stuff,
> > > > > > this was one of very serious concerns of our mentors during
> > > incubation
> > > > > > phase - too many tickets, too little real communications.
> Splitting
> > > > > message
> > > > > > flows will help us understand where we are.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > And another very interesting thing is how PMCs treat all these
> > > > messages -
> > > > > > they ignore them. When I come with that problem, one PMC proposed
> > > > > solution
> > > > > > - "just filter them like I do". Then I, another PMC, answered -
> "I
> > do
> > > > not
> > > > > > know how to filter them". Finally, third PMC, who also filters
> > these
> > > > > > messages, helped me create proper filter in GMail.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Isn't it demonstrative enough that so many PMC, who are expected
> to
> > > > > > understand project very well and follow a lot of activities, find
> > it
> > > > > useful
> > > > > > to *remove* JIRA emails from their inboxes in order to ... well
> ...
> > > > > > understand what is going on. If Ignite veterans do not find these
> > > > > generated
> > > > > > emails useful, then I do not know who else can benefit from them.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On Thu, Nov 15, 2018 at 7:06 PM Denis Mekhanikov <
> > > > dmekhani...@gmail.com>
> > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > Dmitriy,
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I do believe Igniters can set up a filter.
> > > > > > > I doesn't mean we should make them do it.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > How do JIRA messages help?
> > > > > > > If you want do discuss something – write to dev list.
> > > > > > > If you want a code review – write to dev list.
> > > > > > > If you have an announcement – write to dev list.
> > > > > > > I don't see, how JIRA messages can replace any of these points.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Literally nobody ever answered a message from JIRA bot.
> > > > > > > I think, that only watchers of JIRA tickets should be notified
> > > about
> > > > > > > updates.
> > > > > > > There is no point in sending messages to everyone.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Denis
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г. в 18:50, Dmitriy Pavlov <
> dpav...@

Re: Time to remove automated messages from the devlist?

[Vladimir Ozerov]

Dmitry,

I am not referring to some "authoritative ASF member" as a guide for us. We
are on our own. What I meant is that at some point in time we were pointed
to an idea, that tons of automated messages has nothing to do with healthy
community. Which seems pretty reasonable to me.

On Thu, Nov 15, 2018 at 10:15 PM Dmitriy Pavlov  wrote:

> What incubator mentor do you refer to? Incubator member are asf members as
> well.
>
> I was involved at least to 3 discussions at the list started from Jira
> issue created.
>
> If others were not involved, it do not convince me its is not useful to
> keep forwarding.
>
> чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г., 21:23 Vladimir Ozerov :
>
> > Dmitry,
> >
> > What Apache member do you refer to?
> >
> > чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г. в 21:10, Dmitriy Pavlov :
> >
> > > How do you know what to watch if new tickets are not forwarded?
> > >
> > > Again, PRs are ok to remove since it is duplicate to jira, but jira
> > removal
> > > does not make any sense for me.
> > >
> > > Com dev folks instead suggest to forward all comments and all activity
> > from
> > > github to the list. So if Apache member will confirm it is not useful
> to
> > > allow dev. list watchers see new issues on the list we can continue
> > > discussion. Openness is needed not for veterans but for all community
> > > members and users who is subscribed to the list.
> > >
> > > чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г., 21:00 Pavel Tupitsyn :
> > >
> > > > Personal emails for _watched_ JIRA tickets are very useful.
> > > > Emails to everyone are not.
> > > >
> > > > +1 for separate mailing list for all automated emails.
> > > > I don't think we can avoid automated emails completely, but dev list
> > > should
> > > > be human-only.
> > > > So separate list is the only way.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On Thu, Nov 15, 2018 at 8:11 PM Vladimir Ozerov <
> voze...@gridgain.com>
> > > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Completely agree with Denis. Tons of generated messages and
> community
> > > > > health are not relevant. Currently we obviously have too much
> tickets
> > > and
> > > > > too little communications. This is bad. But whether we accumulate
> > > > generated
> > > > > stuff here or in some other place is not important at all, provided
> > > that
> > > > we
> > > > > can point dev-list readers to JIRA channel. And as far as generated
> > > > stuff,
> > > > > this was one of very serious concerns of our mentors during
> > incubation
> > > > > phase - too many tickets, too little real communications. Splitting
> > > > message
> > > > > flows will help us understand where we are.
> > > > >
> > > > > And another very interesting thing is how PMCs treat all these
> > > messages -
> > > > > they ignore them. When I come with that problem, one PMC proposed
> > > > solution
> > > > > - "just filter them like I do". Then I, another PMC, answered - "I
> do
> > > not
> > > > > know how to filter them". Finally, third PMC, who also filters
> these
> > > > > messages, helped me create proper filter in GMail.
> > > > >
> > > > > Isn't it demonstrative enough that so many PMC, who are expected to
> > > > > understand project very well and follow a lot of activities, find
> it
> > > > useful
> > > > > to *remove* JIRA emails from their inboxes in order to ... well ...
> > > > > understand what is going on. If Ignite veterans do not find these
> > > > generated
> > > > > emails useful, then I do not know who else can benefit from them.
> > > > >
> > > > > On Thu, Nov 15, 2018 at 7:06 PM Denis Mekhanikov <
> > > dmekhani...@gmail.com>
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > Dmitriy,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > I do believe Igniters can set up a filter.
> > > > > > I doesn't mean we should make them do it.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > How do JIRA messages help?
> > > > > > If you want do discuss something – write to dev list.
> > > > > > If you want a code review – write to dev list.
> > > > > > If you have an announcement – write to dev list.
> > > > > > I don't see, how JIRA messages can replace any of these points.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Literally nobody ever answered a message from JIRA bot.
> > > > > > I think, that only watchers of JIRA tickets should be notified
> > about
> > > > > > updates.
> > > > > > There is no point in sending messages to everyone.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Denis
> > > > > >
> > > > > > чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г. в 18:50, Dmitriy Pavlov  >:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > I do believe Igniters can set up a filter.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > JIRA ticket is an intention to be done by contributors in
> future.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > If PMC member admits decisions are made off the list and just
> > > > provided
> > > > > as
> > > > > > > fact-in-the-past for others - it really signs poor community
> > > health.
> > > > So
> > > > > > for
> > > > > > > me, it is not reasonable to fight with JIRA messages it is
> > > reasonable
> > > > > to
> > > > > > > grow a culture of on-list development. If we don't have it,
> JIRA
> > > > should
> > > > > > > remain here.
> > > > > >

Re: Time to remove automated messages from the devlist?

[oignatenko]

Personally I am comfortable with the way how things are now because mail
filters appear to work well for me.

However this thread made me curious about whether ASF has some guidance or
recommendations on that matter. I searched quite a bit and found none of
that kind. It looks like Apache leaves it at discretion of the project
community to decide whether to make separate list for automated messages or
not (which made a fairly good sense after I gave it a bit more thought, see
below).

---

After that I decided to check how other Apache projects manage their mailing
lists and as far as I can tell most active ones tend to have separate
mailing lists for automatic notifications from version control and / or
issue tracker.

I checked few top projects by number of committers from the list here:
https://projects.apache.org/projects.html?number - specifically top 8 that
had over 80 committers (for comparison, this list currently says Ignite has
38, I think we're fairly close to that league).

- https://hadoop.apache.org/mailing_lists.html
  https://openoffice.apache.org/mailing-lists.html
  http://cloudstack.apache.org/mailing-lists.html
  http://ambari.apache.org/mail-lists.html
  ---> Separate lists for commits and for issue tracker.

- http://geode.apache.org/community/#mailing-lists
  https://cordova.apache.org/contact/
  http://subversion.apache.org/mailing-lists.html
  http://hive.apache.org/mailing_lists.html
  ---> Separate list for commits.

For the sake of completeness I also sampled 4 projects having 38 committers,
just like Ignite.

- http://chemistry.apache.org/project/community.html
  ---> No lists for commits nor issues.

- http://ctakes.apache.org/mailing.html
  ---> Separate list for commits.

- http://metron.apache.org/community/
  ---> Separate list for issues.

- https://orc.apache.org/develop/
  ---> Separate lists for commits and for issue tracker.

---

Based on my personal experience this issue looks to some extent a matter of
whether we consider some barrier for entry to dev list desirable or not. I
could not actively use list until I learned how to setup mail filters
because it was difficult to find discussions to participate. On the other
hand, after setting these filters it turned out very easy.

So the question is, do we want to have dev list easier or harder to use for
"passers by" who aren't deeply involved in project. If we want to keep it
strictly at top experience level, then we better keep all automated messages
in. If we want it welcoming for any random passer by, then we better move
all automated messages somewhere else. And there are of course intermediate
approaches, we can basically tune ease of entry by picking which part of
automated messages will stay and which will go away.

---

Another important thing I learned when studying mailing lists of other
projects is we better take into account that regular automated messages may
help in keeping dev list "lively" in the slow times, when there are little
to none discussions.

At first I was tempted to propose moving all the automated messages outside
- "just like big boys do" - note how top 4 projects in my list all have
commits and issues in separate lists. But looking how smaller projects tend
to handle it differently made me wonder if maybe it is a bit more
complicated, maybe there is some difference worth considering.

And as far as I can tell, the important difference is size of community /
amount of committers. When there are lots of people actively involved in the
project it is very likely that they can permanently maintain dev list active
by natural discussions. But when the project is smaller, there is a
substantial risk that sometimes most active developers are focused on issue
tracker or github which means dev list may look abandoned (if it contains
only discussions).

If there is such a risk then keeping some (not necessarily all) automated
messages in dev list will help its subscribers and visitors avoid misleading
impression of "abandoned empty place" by showing that the project is indeed
actively maintained.

regards, Oleg



--
Sent from: http://apache-ignite-developers.2346864.n4.nabble.com/

Re: Time to remove automated messages from the devlist?

[Dmitriy Pavlov]

What incubator mentor do you refer to? Incubator member are asf members as
well.

I was involved at least to 3 discussions at the list started from Jira
issue created.

If others were not involved, it do not convince me its is not useful to
keep forwarding.

чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г., 21:23 Vladimir Ozerov :

> Dmitry,
>
> What Apache member do you refer to?
>
> чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г. в 21:10, Dmitriy Pavlov :
>
> > How do you know what to watch if new tickets are not forwarded?
> >
> > Again, PRs are ok to remove since it is duplicate to jira, but jira
> removal
> > does not make any sense for me.
> >
> > Com dev folks instead suggest to forward all comments and all activity
> from
> > github to the list. So if Apache member will confirm it is not useful to
> > allow dev. list watchers see new issues on the list we can continue
> > discussion. Openness is needed not for veterans but for all community
> > members and users who is subscribed to the list.
> >
> > чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г., 21:00 Pavel Tupitsyn :
> >
> > > Personal emails for _watched_ JIRA tickets are very useful.
> > > Emails to everyone are not.
> > >
> > > +1 for separate mailing list for all automated emails.
> > > I don't think we can avoid automated emails completely, but dev list
> > should
> > > be human-only.
> > > So separate list is the only way.
> > >
> > >
> > > On Thu, Nov 15, 2018 at 8:11 PM Vladimir Ozerov 
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > > Completely agree with Denis. Tons of generated messages and community
> > > > health are not relevant. Currently we obviously have too much tickets
> > and
> > > > too little communications. This is bad. But whether we accumulate
> > > generated
> > > > stuff here or in some other place is not important at all, provided
> > that
> > > we
> > > > can point dev-list readers to JIRA channel. And as far as generated
> > > stuff,
> > > > this was one of very serious concerns of our mentors during
> incubation
> > > > phase - too many tickets, too little real communications. Splitting
> > > message
> > > > flows will help us understand where we are.
> > > >
> > > > And another very interesting thing is how PMCs treat all these
> > messages -
> > > > they ignore them. When I come with that problem, one PMC proposed
> > > solution
> > > > - "just filter them like I do". Then I, another PMC, answered - "I do
> > not
> > > > know how to filter them". Finally, third PMC, who also filters these
> > > > messages, helped me create proper filter in GMail.
> > > >
> > > > Isn't it demonstrative enough that so many PMC, who are expected to
> > > > understand project very well and follow a lot of activities, find it
> > > useful
> > > > to *remove* JIRA emails from their inboxes in order to ... well ...
> > > > understand what is going on. If Ignite veterans do not find these
> > > generated
> > > > emails useful, then I do not know who else can benefit from them.
> > > >
> > > > On Thu, Nov 15, 2018 at 7:06 PM Denis Mekhanikov <
> > dmekhani...@gmail.com>
> > > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Dmitriy,
> > > > >
> > > > > > I do believe Igniters can set up a filter.
> > > > > I doesn't mean we should make them do it.
> > > > >
> > > > > How do JIRA messages help?
> > > > > If you want do discuss something – write to dev list.
> > > > > If you want a code review – write to dev list.
> > > > > If you have an announcement – write to dev list.
> > > > > I don't see, how JIRA messages can replace any of these points.
> > > > >
> > > > > Literally nobody ever answered a message from JIRA bot.
> > > > > I think, that only watchers of JIRA tickets should be notified
> about
> > > > > updates.
> > > > > There is no point in sending messages to everyone.
> > > > >
> > > > > Denis
> > > > >
> > > > > чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г. в 18:50, Dmitriy Pavlov :
> > > > >
> > > > > > I do believe Igniters can set up a filter.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > JIRA ticket is an intention to be done by contributors in future.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > If PMC member admits decisions are made off the list and just
> > > provided
> > > > as
> > > > > > fact-in-the-past for others - it really signs poor community
> > health.
> > > So
> > > > > for
> > > > > > me, it is not reasonable to fight with JIRA messages it is
> > reasonable
> > > > to
> > > > > > grow a culture of on-list development. If we don't have it, JIRA
> > > should
> > > > > > remain here.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г. в 18:30, Denis Mekhanikov <
> > > dmekhani...@gmail.com
> > > > >:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > Dmitriy,
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > If we want people to act openly and community-friendly, then we
> > > > should
> > > > > > make
> > > > > > > it a part of the required development process.
> > > > > > > Otherwise people just won't care about it.
> > > > > > > Moreover, all JIRA tickets are open for everyone, so no
> openness
> > > > would
> > > > > be
> > > > > > > violated if we made a separate mailing list for bots.
> > > > > > > JIRA tickets are just as easy to search through, as 

Re: Time to remove automated messages from the devlist?

[Vladimir Ozerov]

Dmitry,

What Apache member do you refer to?

чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г. в 21:10, Dmitriy Pavlov :

> How do you know what to watch if new tickets are not forwarded?
>
> Again, PRs are ok to remove since it is duplicate to jira, but jira removal
> does not make any sense for me.
>
> Com dev folks instead suggest to forward all comments and all activity from
> github to the list. So if Apache member will confirm it is not useful to
> allow dev. list watchers see new issues on the list we can continue
> discussion. Openness is needed not for veterans but for all community
> members and users who is subscribed to the list.
>
> чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г., 21:00 Pavel Tupitsyn :
>
> > Personal emails for _watched_ JIRA tickets are very useful.
> > Emails to everyone are not.
> >
> > +1 for separate mailing list for all automated emails.
> > I don't think we can avoid automated emails completely, but dev list
> should
> > be human-only.
> > So separate list is the only way.
> >
> >
> > On Thu, Nov 15, 2018 at 8:11 PM Vladimir Ozerov 
> > wrote:
> >
> > > Completely agree with Denis. Tons of generated messages and community
> > > health are not relevant. Currently we obviously have too much tickets
> and
> > > too little communications. This is bad. But whether we accumulate
> > generated
> > > stuff here or in some other place is not important at all, provided
> that
> > we
> > > can point dev-list readers to JIRA channel. And as far as generated
> > stuff,
> > > this was one of very serious concerns of our mentors during incubation
> > > phase - too many tickets, too little real communications. Splitting
> > message
> > > flows will help us understand where we are.
> > >
> > > And another very interesting thing is how PMCs treat all these
> messages -
> > > they ignore them. When I come with that problem, one PMC proposed
> > solution
> > > - "just filter them like I do". Then I, another PMC, answered - "I do
> not
> > > know how to filter them". Finally, third PMC, who also filters these
> > > messages, helped me create proper filter in GMail.
> > >
> > > Isn't it demonstrative enough that so many PMC, who are expected to
> > > understand project very well and follow a lot of activities, find it
> > useful
> > > to *remove* JIRA emails from their inboxes in order to ... well ...
> > > understand what is going on. If Ignite veterans do not find these
> > generated
> > > emails useful, then I do not know who else can benefit from them.
> > >
> > > On Thu, Nov 15, 2018 at 7:06 PM Denis Mekhanikov <
> dmekhani...@gmail.com>
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > > Dmitriy,
> > > >
> > > > > I do believe Igniters can set up a filter.
> > > > I doesn't mean we should make them do it.
> > > >
> > > > How do JIRA messages help?
> > > > If you want do discuss something – write to dev list.
> > > > If you want a code review – write to dev list.
> > > > If you have an announcement – write to dev list.
> > > > I don't see, how JIRA messages can replace any of these points.
> > > >
> > > > Literally nobody ever answered a message from JIRA bot.
> > > > I think, that only watchers of JIRA tickets should be notified about
> > > > updates.
> > > > There is no point in sending messages to everyone.
> > > >
> > > > Denis
> > > >
> > > > чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г. в 18:50, Dmitriy Pavlov :
> > > >
> > > > > I do believe Igniters can set up a filter.
> > > > >
> > > > > JIRA ticket is an intention to be done by contributors in future.
> > > > >
> > > > > If PMC member admits decisions are made off the list and just
> > provided
> > > as
> > > > > fact-in-the-past for others - it really signs poor community
> health.
> > So
> > > > for
> > > > > me, it is not reasonable to fight with JIRA messages it is
> reasonable
> > > to
> > > > > grow a culture of on-list development. If we don't have it, JIRA
> > should
> > > > > remain here.
> > > > >
> > > > > чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г. в 18:30, Denis Mekhanikov <
> > dmekhani...@gmail.com
> > > >:
> > > > >
> > > > > > Dmitriy,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > If we want people to act openly and community-friendly, then we
> > > should
> > > > > make
> > > > > > it a part of the required development process.
> > > > > > Otherwise people just won't care about it.
> > > > > > Moreover, all JIRA tickets are open for everyone, so no openness
> > > would
> > > > be
> > > > > > violated if we made a separate mailing list for bots.
> > > > > > JIRA tickets are just as easy to search through, as the emails.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > If you write anything to the dev list, then only the once, who
> > spent
> > > > half
> > > > > > an hour, configuring the email filters will see it.
> > > > > > Others won't notice it, because it will get lost among the flood
> of
> > > > spam
> > > > > > messages from bots.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > If you are interested in receiving the JIRA notifications, you
> > could
> > > > > > subscribe to ignite-bots (or even ignite-jira) mailing list,
> > > > > > and keep track of what happens there. It would simplify
> filt

Re: Time to remove automated messages from the devlist?

[Dmitriy Pavlov]

How do you know what to watch if new tickets are not forwarded?

Again, PRs are ok to remove since it is duplicate to jira, but jira removal
does not make any sense for me.

Com dev folks instead suggest to forward all comments and all activity from
github to the list. So if Apache member will confirm it is not useful to
allow dev. list watchers see new issues on the list we can continue
discussion. Openness is needed not for veterans but for all community
members and users who is subscribed to the list.

чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г., 21:00 Pavel Tupitsyn :

> Personal emails for _watched_ JIRA tickets are very useful.
> Emails to everyone are not.
>
> +1 for separate mailing list for all automated emails.
> I don't think we can avoid automated emails completely, but dev list should
> be human-only.
> So separate list is the only way.
>
>
> On Thu, Nov 15, 2018 at 8:11 PM Vladimir Ozerov 
> wrote:
>
> > Completely agree with Denis. Tons of generated messages and community
> > health are not relevant. Currently we obviously have too much tickets and
> > too little communications. This is bad. But whether we accumulate
> generated
> > stuff here or in some other place is not important at all, provided that
> we
> > can point dev-list readers to JIRA channel. And as far as generated
> stuff,
> > this was one of very serious concerns of our mentors during incubation
> > phase - too many tickets, too little real communications. Splitting
> message
> > flows will help us understand where we are.
> >
> > And another very interesting thing is how PMCs treat all these messages -
> > they ignore them. When I come with that problem, one PMC proposed
> solution
> > - "just filter them like I do". Then I, another PMC, answered - "I do not
> > know how to filter them". Finally, third PMC, who also filters these
> > messages, helped me create proper filter in GMail.
> >
> > Isn't it demonstrative enough that so many PMC, who are expected to
> > understand project very well and follow a lot of activities, find it
> useful
> > to *remove* JIRA emails from their inboxes in order to ... well ...
> > understand what is going on. If Ignite veterans do not find these
> generated
> > emails useful, then I do not know who else can benefit from them.
> >
> > On Thu, Nov 15, 2018 at 7:06 PM Denis Mekhanikov 
> > wrote:
> >
> > > Dmitriy,
> > >
> > > > I do believe Igniters can set up a filter.
> > > I doesn't mean we should make them do it.
> > >
> > > How do JIRA messages help?
> > > If you want do discuss something – write to dev list.
> > > If you want a code review – write to dev list.
> > > If you have an announcement – write to dev list.
> > > I don't see, how JIRA messages can replace any of these points.
> > >
> > > Literally nobody ever answered a message from JIRA bot.
> > > I think, that only watchers of JIRA tickets should be notified about
> > > updates.
> > > There is no point in sending messages to everyone.
> > >
> > > Denis
> > >
> > > чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г. в 18:50, Dmitriy Pavlov :
> > >
> > > > I do believe Igniters can set up a filter.
> > > >
> > > > JIRA ticket is an intention to be done by contributors in future.
> > > >
> > > > If PMC member admits decisions are made off the list and just
> provided
> > as
> > > > fact-in-the-past for others - it really signs poor community health.
> So
> > > for
> > > > me, it is not reasonable to fight with JIRA messages it is reasonable
> > to
> > > > grow a culture of on-list development. If we don't have it, JIRA
> should
> > > > remain here.
> > > >
> > > > чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г. в 18:30, Denis Mekhanikov <
> dmekhani...@gmail.com
> > >:
> > > >
> > > > > Dmitriy,
> > > > >
> > > > > If we want people to act openly and community-friendly, then we
> > should
> > > > make
> > > > > it a part of the required development process.
> > > > > Otherwise people just won't care about it.
> > > > > Moreover, all JIRA tickets are open for everyone, so no openness
> > would
> > > be
> > > > > violated if we made a separate mailing list for bots.
> > > > > JIRA tickets are just as easy to search through, as the emails.
> > > > >
> > > > > If you write anything to the dev list, then only the once, who
> spent
> > > half
> > > > > an hour, configuring the email filters will see it.
> > > > > Others won't notice it, because it will get lost among the flood of
> > > spam
> > > > > messages from bots.
> > > > >
> > > > > If you are interested in receiving the JIRA notifications, you
> could
> > > > > subscribe to ignite-bots (or even ignite-jira) mailing list,
> > > > > and keep track of what happens there. It would simplify filtering,
> > > > because
> > > > > you should only filter out the corresponding recipient.
> > > > >
> > > > > Currently if you want to filter out all messages from bots, you
> > should
> > > > > enumerate all possible topics, that bots may generate.
> > > > > And since the number of bots only grows with time, the filter
> should
> > be
> > > > > kept in actual state, otherwi

Re: Time to remove automated messages from the devlist?

[Павлухин Иван]

Hi,

In my opinion there should be only development discussions and
important notifications on dev list. But I must say that I started to
look through Jira and even GitHub notifications from time to time. And
I find that it sometimes gives me a useful information like
"contributor A is doing B". But I think that there will be no harm for
me to check it on different mail list.
чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г. в 20:11, Vladimir Ozerov :
>
> Completely agree with Denis. Tons of generated messages and community
> health are not relevant. Currently we obviously have too much tickets and
> too little communications. This is bad. But whether we accumulate generated
> stuff here or in some other place is not important at all, provided that we
> can point dev-list readers to JIRA channel. And as far as generated stuff,
> this was one of very serious concerns of our mentors during incubation
> phase - too many tickets, too little real communications. Splitting message
> flows will help us understand where we are.
>
> And another very interesting thing is how PMCs treat all these messages -
> they ignore them. When I come with that problem, one PMC proposed solution
> - "just filter them like I do". Then I, another PMC, answered - "I do not
> know how to filter them". Finally, third PMC, who also filters these
> messages, helped me create proper filter in GMail.
>
> Isn't it demonstrative enough that so many PMC, who are expected to
> understand project very well and follow a lot of activities, find it useful
> to *remove* JIRA emails from their inboxes in order to ... well ...
> understand what is going on. If Ignite veterans do not find these generated
> emails useful, then I do not know who else can benefit from them.
>
> On Thu, Nov 15, 2018 at 7:06 PM Denis Mekhanikov 
> wrote:
>
> > Dmitriy,
> >
> > > I do believe Igniters can set up a filter.
> > I doesn't mean we should make them do it.
> >
> > How do JIRA messages help?
> > If you want do discuss something – write to dev list.
> > If you want a code review – write to dev list.
> > If you have an announcement – write to dev list.
> > I don't see, how JIRA messages can replace any of these points.
> >
> > Literally nobody ever answered a message from JIRA bot.
> > I think, that only watchers of JIRA tickets should be notified about
> > updates.
> > There is no point in sending messages to everyone.
> >
> > Denis
> >
> > чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г. в 18:50, Dmitriy Pavlov :
> >
> > > I do believe Igniters can set up a filter.
> > >
> > > JIRA ticket is an intention to be done by contributors in future.
> > >
> > > If PMC member admits decisions are made off the list and just provided as
> > > fact-in-the-past for others - it really signs poor community health. So
> > for
> > > me, it is not reasonable to fight with JIRA messages it is reasonable to
> > > grow a culture of on-list development. If we don't have it, JIRA should
> > > remain here.
> > >
> > > чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г. в 18:30, Denis Mekhanikov :
> > >
> > > > Dmitriy,
> > > >
> > > > If we want people to act openly and community-friendly, then we should
> > > make
> > > > it a part of the required development process.
> > > > Otherwise people just won't care about it.
> > > > Moreover, all JIRA tickets are open for everyone, so no openness would
> > be
> > > > violated if we made a separate mailing list for bots.
> > > > JIRA tickets are just as easy to search through, as the emails.
> > > >
> > > > If you write anything to the dev list, then only the once, who spent
> > half
> > > > an hour, configuring the email filters will see it.
> > > > Others won't notice it, because it will get lost among the flood of
> > spam
> > > > messages from bots.
> > > >
> > > > If you are interested in receiving the JIRA notifications, you could
> > > > subscribe to ignite-bots (or even ignite-jira) mailing list,
> > > > and keep track of what happens there. It would simplify filtering,
> > > because
> > > > you should only filter out the corresponding recipient.
> > > >
> > > > Currently if you want to filter out all messages from bots, you should
> > > > enumerate all possible topics, that bots may generate.
> > > > And since the number of bots only grows with time, the filter should be
> > > > kept in actual state, otherwise messages will spill into the inbox.
> > > >
> > > > Denis
> > > >
> > > > чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г. в 17:58, Dmitriy Pavlov :
> > > >
> > > > > Hi Denis,
> > > > >
> > > > > Another side of this decision is the openness of the development.
> > > > >
> > > > > Since not all contributors pay attention to run their development in
> > an
> > > > > open/community friendly manner:
> > > > > - to announce important features, and
> > > > > - Telegraph their intent
> > > > > - Draft designs openly
> > > > > - Submit work in chunks
> > > > > - Welcome feedback along the way
> > > > >
> > http://shaneslides.com/apachecon/TheApacheWay-ApacheConNA2018.html#24
> > > > >
> > > > > we can't just remove JIRA from the list.
> > > > >
> >

Re: Time to remove automated messages from the devlist?

[Pavel Tupitsyn]

Personal emails for _watched_ JIRA tickets are very useful.
Emails to everyone are not.

+1 for separate mailing list for all automated emails.
I don't think we can avoid automated emails completely, but dev list should
be human-only.
So separate list is the only way.


On Thu, Nov 15, 2018 at 8:11 PM Vladimir Ozerov 
wrote:

> Completely agree with Denis. Tons of generated messages and community
> health are not relevant. Currently we obviously have too much tickets and
> too little communications. This is bad. But whether we accumulate generated
> stuff here or in some other place is not important at all, provided that we
> can point dev-list readers to JIRA channel. And as far as generated stuff,
> this was one of very serious concerns of our mentors during incubation
> phase - too many tickets, too little real communications. Splitting message
> flows will help us understand where we are.
>
> And another very interesting thing is how PMCs treat all these messages -
> they ignore them. When I come with that problem, one PMC proposed solution
> - "just filter them like I do". Then I, another PMC, answered - "I do not
> know how to filter them". Finally, third PMC, who also filters these
> messages, helped me create proper filter in GMail.
>
> Isn't it demonstrative enough that so many PMC, who are expected to
> understand project very well and follow a lot of activities, find it useful
> to *remove* JIRA emails from their inboxes in order to ... well ...
> understand what is going on. If Ignite veterans do not find these generated
> emails useful, then I do not know who else can benefit from them.
>
> On Thu, Nov 15, 2018 at 7:06 PM Denis Mekhanikov 
> wrote:
>
> > Dmitriy,
> >
> > > I do believe Igniters can set up a filter.
> > I doesn't mean we should make them do it.
> >
> > How do JIRA messages help?
> > If you want do discuss something – write to dev list.
> > If you want a code review – write to dev list.
> > If you have an announcement – write to dev list.
> > I don't see, how JIRA messages can replace any of these points.
> >
> > Literally nobody ever answered a message from JIRA bot.
> > I think, that only watchers of JIRA tickets should be notified about
> > updates.
> > There is no point in sending messages to everyone.
> >
> > Denis
> >
> > чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г. в 18:50, Dmitriy Pavlov :
> >
> > > I do believe Igniters can set up a filter.
> > >
> > > JIRA ticket is an intention to be done by contributors in future.
> > >
> > > If PMC member admits decisions are made off the list and just provided
> as
> > > fact-in-the-past for others - it really signs poor community health. So
> > for
> > > me, it is not reasonable to fight with JIRA messages it is reasonable
> to
> > > grow a culture of on-list development. If we don't have it, JIRA should
> > > remain here.
> > >
> > > чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г. в 18:30, Denis Mekhanikov  >:
> > >
> > > > Dmitriy,
> > > >
> > > > If we want people to act openly and community-friendly, then we
> should
> > > make
> > > > it a part of the required development process.
> > > > Otherwise people just won't care about it.
> > > > Moreover, all JIRA tickets are open for everyone, so no openness
> would
> > be
> > > > violated if we made a separate mailing list for bots.
> > > > JIRA tickets are just as easy to search through, as the emails.
> > > >
> > > > If you write anything to the dev list, then only the once, who spent
> > half
> > > > an hour, configuring the email filters will see it.
> > > > Others won't notice it, because it will get lost among the flood of
> > spam
> > > > messages from bots.
> > > >
> > > > If you are interested in receiving the JIRA notifications, you could
> > > > subscribe to ignite-bots (or even ignite-jira) mailing list,
> > > > and keep track of what happens there. It would simplify filtering,
> > > because
> > > > you should only filter out the corresponding recipient.
> > > >
> > > > Currently if you want to filter out all messages from bots, you
> should
> > > > enumerate all possible topics, that bots may generate.
> > > > And since the number of bots only grows with time, the filter should
> be
> > > > kept in actual state, otherwise messages will spill into the inbox.
> > > >
> > > > Denis
> > > >
> > > > чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г. в 17:58, Dmitriy Pavlov :
> > > >
> > > > > Hi Denis,
> > > > >
> > > > > Another side of this decision is the openness of the development.
> > > > >
> > > > > Since not all contributors pay attention to run their development
> in
> > an
> > > > > open/community friendly manner:
> > > > > - to announce important features, and
> > > > > - Telegraph their intent
> > > > > - Draft designs openly
> > > > > - Submit work in chunks
> > > > > - Welcome feedback along the way
> > > > >
> > http://shaneslides.com/apachecon/TheApacheWay-ApacheConNA2018.html#24
> > > > >
> > > > > we can't just remove JIRA from the list.
> > > > >
> > > > > Today JIRA forwarding is an only way to keep Ignite development
> easy
> > to

Re: Time to remove automated messages from the devlist?

[Vladimir Ozerov]

Completely agree with Denis. Tons of generated messages and community
health are not relevant. Currently we obviously have too much tickets and
too little communications. This is bad. But whether we accumulate generated
stuff here or in some other place is not important at all, provided that we
can point dev-list readers to JIRA channel. And as far as generated stuff,
this was one of very serious concerns of our mentors during incubation
phase - too many tickets, too little real communications. Splitting message
flows will help us understand where we are.

And another very interesting thing is how PMCs treat all these messages -
they ignore them. When I come with that problem, one PMC proposed solution
- "just filter them like I do". Then I, another PMC, answered - "I do not
know how to filter them". Finally, third PMC, who also filters these
messages, helped me create proper filter in GMail.

Isn't it demonstrative enough that so many PMC, who are expected to
understand project very well and follow a lot of activities, find it useful
to *remove* JIRA emails from their inboxes in order to ... well ...
understand what is going on. If Ignite veterans do not find these generated
emails useful, then I do not know who else can benefit from them.

On Thu, Nov 15, 2018 at 7:06 PM Denis Mekhanikov 
wrote:

> Dmitriy,
>
> > I do believe Igniters can set up a filter.
> I doesn't mean we should make them do it.
>
> How do JIRA messages help?
> If you want do discuss something – write to dev list.
> If you want a code review – write to dev list.
> If you have an announcement – write to dev list.
> I don't see, how JIRA messages can replace any of these points.
>
> Literally nobody ever answered a message from JIRA bot.
> I think, that only watchers of JIRA tickets should be notified about
> updates.
> There is no point in sending messages to everyone.
>
> Denis
>
> чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г. в 18:50, Dmitriy Pavlov :
>
> > I do believe Igniters can set up a filter.
> >
> > JIRA ticket is an intention to be done by contributors in future.
> >
> > If PMC member admits decisions are made off the list and just provided as
> > fact-in-the-past for others - it really signs poor community health. So
> for
> > me, it is not reasonable to fight with JIRA messages it is reasonable to
> > grow a culture of on-list development. If we don't have it, JIRA should
> > remain here.
> >
> > чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г. в 18:30, Denis Mekhanikov :
> >
> > > Dmitriy,
> > >
> > > If we want people to act openly and community-friendly, then we should
> > make
> > > it a part of the required development process.
> > > Otherwise people just won't care about it.
> > > Moreover, all JIRA tickets are open for everyone, so no openness would
> be
> > > violated if we made a separate mailing list for bots.
> > > JIRA tickets are just as easy to search through, as the emails.
> > >
> > > If you write anything to the dev list, then only the once, who spent
> half
> > > an hour, configuring the email filters will see it.
> > > Others won't notice it, because it will get lost among the flood of
> spam
> > > messages from bots.
> > >
> > > If you are interested in receiving the JIRA notifications, you could
> > > subscribe to ignite-bots (or even ignite-jira) mailing list,
> > > and keep track of what happens there. It would simplify filtering,
> > because
> > > you should only filter out the corresponding recipient.
> > >
> > > Currently if you want to filter out all messages from bots, you should
> > > enumerate all possible topics, that bots may generate.
> > > And since the number of bots only grows with time, the filter should be
> > > kept in actual state, otherwise messages will spill into the inbox.
> > >
> > > Denis
> > >
> > > чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г. в 17:58, Dmitriy Pavlov :
> > >
> > > > Hi Denis,
> > > >
> > > > Another side of this decision is the openness of the development.
> > > >
> > > > Since not all contributors pay attention to run their development in
> an
> > > > open/community friendly manner:
> > > > - to announce important features, and
> > > > - Telegraph their intent
> > > > - Draft designs openly
> > > > - Submit work in chunks
> > > > - Welcome feedback along the way
> > > >
> http://shaneslides.com/apachecon/TheApacheWay-ApacheConNA2018.html#24
> > > >
> > > > we can't just remove JIRA from the list.
> > > >
> > > > Today JIRA forwarding is an only way to keep Ignite development easy
> to
> > > > follow by subscribing to dev. list.
> > > >
> > > > If we came to practice that all contributors announce important
> > features
> > > > and bugs, JIRA can be removed. Now it can't.
> > > >
> > > > Which problem we can solve by removing JIRA from the list?
> > > >
> > > > Sincerely,
> > > > Dmitriy Pavlov
> > > >
> > > > чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г. в 17:34, Denis Mekhanikov <
> dmekhani...@gmail.com
> > >:
> > > >
> > > > > Guys,
> > > > >
> > > > > I vote for moving automatically generated messages to a separate
> > > mailing
> > > > > list (maybe exce

Re: Time to remove automated messages from the devlist?

[Denis Mekhanikov]

Dmitriy,

> I do believe Igniters can set up a filter.
I doesn't mean we should make them do it.

How do JIRA messages help?
If you want do discuss something – write to dev list.
If you want a code review – write to dev list.
If you have an announcement – write to dev list.
I don't see, how JIRA messages can replace any of these points.

Literally nobody ever answered a message from JIRA bot.
I think, that only watchers of JIRA tickets should be notified about
updates.
There is no point in sending messages to everyone.

Denis

чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г. в 18:50, Dmitriy Pavlov :

> I do believe Igniters can set up a filter.
>
> JIRA ticket is an intention to be done by contributors in future.
>
> If PMC member admits decisions are made off the list and just provided as
> fact-in-the-past for others - it really signs poor community health. So for
> me, it is not reasonable to fight with JIRA messages it is reasonable to
> grow a culture of on-list development. If we don't have it, JIRA should
> remain here.
>
> чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г. в 18:30, Denis Mekhanikov :
>
> > Dmitriy,
> >
> > If we want people to act openly and community-friendly, then we should
> make
> > it a part of the required development process.
> > Otherwise people just won't care about it.
> > Moreover, all JIRA tickets are open for everyone, so no openness would be
> > violated if we made a separate mailing list for bots.
> > JIRA tickets are just as easy to search through, as the emails.
> >
> > If you write anything to the dev list, then only the once, who spent half
> > an hour, configuring the email filters will see it.
> > Others won't notice it, because it will get lost among the flood of spam
> > messages from bots.
> >
> > If you are interested in receiving the JIRA notifications, you could
> > subscribe to ignite-bots (or even ignite-jira) mailing list,
> > and keep track of what happens there. It would simplify filtering,
> because
> > you should only filter out the corresponding recipient.
> >
> > Currently if you want to filter out all messages from bots, you should
> > enumerate all possible topics, that bots may generate.
> > And since the number of bots only grows with time, the filter should be
> > kept in actual state, otherwise messages will spill into the inbox.
> >
> > Denis
> >
> > чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г. в 17:58, Dmitriy Pavlov :
> >
> > > Hi Denis,
> > >
> > > Another side of this decision is the openness of the development.
> > >
> > > Since not all contributors pay attention to run their development in an
> > > open/community friendly manner:
> > > - to announce important features, and
> > > - Telegraph their intent
> > > - Draft designs openly
> > > - Submit work in chunks
> > > - Welcome feedback along the way
> > > http://shaneslides.com/apachecon/TheApacheWay-ApacheConNA2018.html#24
> > >
> > > we can't just remove JIRA from the list.
> > >
> > > Today JIRA forwarding is an only way to keep Ignite development easy to
> > > follow by subscribing to dev. list.
> > >
> > > If we came to practice that all contributors announce important
> features
> > > and bugs, JIRA can be removed. Now it can't.
> > >
> > > Which problem we can solve by removing JIRA from the list?
> > >
> > > Sincerely,
> > > Dmitriy Pavlov
> > >
> > > чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г. в 17:34, Denis Mekhanikov  >:
> > >
> > > > Guys,
> > > >
> > > > I vote for moving automatically generated messages to a separate
> > mailing
> > > > list (maybe except most important ones).
> > > > I already wrote about it here:
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> http://apache-ignite-developers.2346864.n4.nabble.com/Bots-on-dev-list-td34406.html
> > > >
> > > > What we have now makes the Nabble portal an absolute mess with no
> > ability
> > > > to track human communication.
> > > > It's even hard to search for old discussions, because messages about
> > JIRA
> > > > tickets and git commit messages pop in the search results.
> > > >
> > > > Making every person configure email filters is waisting everybody's
> > time.
> > > > Just imagine, how many human-hours has been spent on it.
> > > > We should respect time of others, and make the separation of emails
> on
> > > the
> > > > sending side.
> > > >
> > > > Denis
> > > >
> > > > чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г. в 13:20, Dmitriy Pavlov :
> > > >
> > > > > IMO we need to run a formal vote on this change, and then PMC chair
> > can
> > > > > create (or reuse) a separate list for messages from Git repos.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > ср, 14 нояб. 2018 г. в 16:08, Vladimir Ozerov <
> voze...@gridgain.com
> > >:
> > > > >
> > > > > > Igniters,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I would say that "set the filter" is not a solution. First, it is
> > not
> > > > > > always possible technically. E.g. I use GMail and my dev-list
> > emails
> > > > are
> > > > > > already use a rule. I cannot extract generated emails from
> overall
> > > flow
> > > > > > with GMail capabilities. But the more important things - is why
> in
> > > the
> > > > > > first place someone needs to went 

Re: Time to remove automated messages from the devlist?

[Dmitriy Pavlov]

I do believe Igniters can set up a filter.

JIRA ticket is an intention to be done by contributors in future.

If PMC member admits decisions are made off the list and just provided as
fact-in-the-past for others - it really signs poor community health. So for
me, it is not reasonable to fight with JIRA messages it is reasonable to
grow a culture of on-list development. If we don't have it, JIRA should
remain here.

чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г. в 18:30, Denis Mekhanikov :

> Dmitriy,
>
> If we want people to act openly and community-friendly, then we should make
> it a part of the required development process.
> Otherwise people just won't care about it.
> Moreover, all JIRA tickets are open for everyone, so no openness would be
> violated if we made a separate mailing list for bots.
> JIRA tickets are just as easy to search through, as the emails.
>
> If you write anything to the dev list, then only the once, who spent half
> an hour, configuring the email filters will see it.
> Others won't notice it, because it will get lost among the flood of spam
> messages from bots.
>
> If you are interested in receiving the JIRA notifications, you could
> subscribe to ignite-bots (or even ignite-jira) mailing list,
> and keep track of what happens there. It would simplify filtering, because
> you should only filter out the corresponding recipient.
>
> Currently if you want to filter out all messages from bots, you should
> enumerate all possible topics, that bots may generate.
> And since the number of bots only grows with time, the filter should be
> kept in actual state, otherwise messages will spill into the inbox.
>
> Denis
>
> чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г. в 17:58, Dmitriy Pavlov :
>
> > Hi Denis,
> >
> > Another side of this decision is the openness of the development.
> >
> > Since not all contributors pay attention to run their development in an
> > open/community friendly manner:
> > - to announce important features, and
> > - Telegraph their intent
> > - Draft designs openly
> > - Submit work in chunks
> > - Welcome feedback along the way
> > http://shaneslides.com/apachecon/TheApacheWay-ApacheConNA2018.html#24
> >
> > we can't just remove JIRA from the list.
> >
> > Today JIRA forwarding is an only way to keep Ignite development easy to
> > follow by subscribing to dev. list.
> >
> > If we came to practice that all contributors announce important features
> > and bugs, JIRA can be removed. Now it can't.
> >
> > Which problem we can solve by removing JIRA from the list?
> >
> > Sincerely,
> > Dmitriy Pavlov
> >
> > чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г. в 17:34, Denis Mekhanikov :
> >
> > > Guys,
> > >
> > > I vote for moving automatically generated messages to a separate
> mailing
> > > list (maybe except most important ones).
> > > I already wrote about it here:
> > >
> > >
> >
> http://apache-ignite-developers.2346864.n4.nabble.com/Bots-on-dev-list-td34406.html
> > >
> > > What we have now makes the Nabble portal an absolute mess with no
> ability
> > > to track human communication.
> > > It's even hard to search for old discussions, because messages about
> JIRA
> > > tickets and git commit messages pop in the search results.
> > >
> > > Making every person configure email filters is waisting everybody's
> time.
> > > Just imagine, how many human-hours has been spent on it.
> > > We should respect time of others, and make the separation of emails on
> > the
> > > sending side.
> > >
> > > Denis
> > >
> > > чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г. в 13:20, Dmitriy Pavlov :
> > >
> > > > IMO we need to run a formal vote on this change, and then PMC chair
> can
> > > > create (or reuse) a separate list for messages from Git repos.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ср, 14 нояб. 2018 г. в 16:08, Vladimir Ozerov  >:
> > > >
> > > > > Igniters,
> > > > >
> > > > > I would say that "set the filter" is not a solution. First, it is
> not
> > > > > always possible technically. E.g. I use GMail and my dev-list
> emails
> > > are
> > > > > already use a rule. I cannot extract generated emails from overall
> > flow
> > > > > with GMail capabilities. But the more important things - is why in
> > the
> > > > > first place someone needs to went through that generated nightmare?
> > > > >
> > > > > Git messages is a spam. Looks like everyone agrees with that. As
> far
> > as
> > > > > JIRA ticket creation - this is all about importance. When someone
> > > writes
> > > > an
> > > > > email to the devlist, this is likely to be important topic
> requiring
> > > > > attention. When someone creates a ticket, most likely this either a
> > > bug,
> > > > or
> > > > > a piece of already discussed issue, or so. In other words - average
> > > > devlist
> > > > > user is likely to be interested in manual messages and is very
> > unlikely
> > > > to
> > > > > be interested in "Ticket created" messages. Not important
> information
> > > > > overshadows important. Let's continue disucssion this.
> > > > >
> > > > > As far as Git - what should be done to remove Git messages from the
> > > list?
> 

Re: Time to remove automated messages from the devlist?

[Denis Mekhanikov]

Dmitriy,

If we want people to act openly and community-friendly, then we should make
it a part of the required development process.
Otherwise people just won't care about it.
Moreover, all JIRA tickets are open for everyone, so no openness would be
violated if we made a separate mailing list for bots.
JIRA tickets are just as easy to search through, as the emails.

If you write anything to the dev list, then only the once, who spent half
an hour, configuring the email filters will see it.
Others won't notice it, because it will get lost among the flood of spam
messages from bots.

If you are interested in receiving the JIRA notifications, you could
subscribe to ignite-bots (or even ignite-jira) mailing list,
and keep track of what happens there. It would simplify filtering, because
you should only filter out the corresponding recipient.

Currently if you want to filter out all messages from bots, you should
enumerate all possible topics, that bots may generate.
And since the number of bots only grows with time, the filter should be
kept in actual state, otherwise messages will spill into the inbox.

Denis

чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г. в 17:58, Dmitriy Pavlov :

> Hi Denis,
>
> Another side of this decision is the openness of the development.
>
> Since not all contributors pay attention to run their development in an
> open/community friendly manner:
> - to announce important features, and
> - Telegraph their intent
> - Draft designs openly
> - Submit work in chunks
> - Welcome feedback along the way
> http://shaneslides.com/apachecon/TheApacheWay-ApacheConNA2018.html#24
>
> we can't just remove JIRA from the list.
>
> Today JIRA forwarding is an only way to keep Ignite development easy to
> follow by subscribing to dev. list.
>
> If we came to practice that all contributors announce important features
> and bugs, JIRA can be removed. Now it can't.
>
> Which problem we can solve by removing JIRA from the list?
>
> Sincerely,
> Dmitriy Pavlov
>
> чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г. в 17:34, Denis Mekhanikov :
>
> > Guys,
> >
> > I vote for moving automatically generated messages to a separate mailing
> > list (maybe except most important ones).
> > I already wrote about it here:
> >
> >
> http://apache-ignite-developers.2346864.n4.nabble.com/Bots-on-dev-list-td34406.html
> >
> > What we have now makes the Nabble portal an absolute mess with no ability
> > to track human communication.
> > It's even hard to search for old discussions, because messages about JIRA
> > tickets and git commit messages pop in the search results.
> >
> > Making every person configure email filters is waisting everybody's time.
> > Just imagine, how many human-hours has been spent on it.
> > We should respect time of others, and make the separation of emails on
> the
> > sending side.
> >
> > Denis
> >
> > чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г. в 13:20, Dmitriy Pavlov :
> >
> > > IMO we need to run a formal vote on this change, and then PMC chair can
> > > create (or reuse) a separate list for messages from Git repos.
> > >
> > >
> > > ср, 14 нояб. 2018 г. в 16:08, Vladimir Ozerov :
> > >
> > > > Igniters,
> > > >
> > > > I would say that "set the filter" is not a solution. First, it is not
> > > > always possible technically. E.g. I use GMail and my dev-list emails
> > are
> > > > already use a rule. I cannot extract generated emails from overall
> flow
> > > > with GMail capabilities. But the more important things - is why in
> the
> > > > first place someone needs to went through that generated nightmare?
> > > >
> > > > Git messages is a spam. Looks like everyone agrees with that. As far
> as
> > > > JIRA ticket creation - this is all about importance. When someone
> > writes
> > > an
> > > > email to the devlist, this is likely to be important topic requiring
> > > > attention. When someone creates a ticket, most likely this either a
> > bug,
> > > or
> > > > a piece of already discussed issue, or so. In other words - average
> > > devlist
> > > > user is likely to be interested in manual messages and is very
> unlikely
> > > to
> > > > be interested in "Ticket created" messages. Not important information
> > > > overshadows important. Let's continue disucssion this.
> > > >
> > > > As far as Git - what should be done to remove Git messages from the
> > list?
> > > >
> > > > Vladimir.
> > > >
> > > > On Tue, Nov 6, 2018 at 6:49 PM Dmitriy Pavlov  >
> > > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Petr, some manual digest, is probably not needed because Apache
> list
> > > > allows
> > > > > subscribing to digest. dev-digest-subsr...@ignite.apache.org if I
> > > > remember
> > > > > this correctly.
> > > > >
> > > > > вт, 6 нояб. 2018 г. в 18:28, Petr Ivanov :
> > > > >
> > > > > > Can be Jira notifications united in some kind of daily digest?
> > > > > > Maybe we can add special filter (new tasks / updates during last
> 24
> > > > > hours)
> > > > > > with notification scheme?
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > On 6 Nov 2018, at 18:15, Dmitriy Pavlov  >
> > > > wrote:
> > > > > >

Re: Time to remove automated messages from the devlist?

[Vladimir Ozerov]

Dmitriy,

The problem is already outlined above - JIRA notifications have very little
to do with openness, as most of them are either minor things or decisions
which are already made. You will never see the whole picture of what the
project is doing.
What is *MUCH* worse is that currently we have false impression that all is
fine. Top 5 active dev list! Woohoo!.Reality: 90% is generate messages.
Remove them - and we will see what really happens to the project. And if we
see silence on the list, this will raise immediate questions on community
health.

In any case, moving JIRA messages to another mailing list will never do any
harm if implemented properly. E.g. we can send weekly notifications to the
devlist to keep readers aware that opened tickets are tracked in another
list. Even better, we may send weekly digests with all opened tickets.
Instead of 100 messages we will have 1. Or we can do it daily if needed.

The key idea - split *mostly* important communications from *mostly*
unimportant.

Vladimir.


On Thu, Nov 15, 2018 at 5:58 PM Dmitriy Pavlov  wrote:

> Hi Denis,
>
> Another side of this decision is the openness of the development.
>
> Since not all contributors pay attention to run their development in an
> open/community friendly manner:
> - to announce important features, and
> - Telegraph their intent
> - Draft designs openly
> - Submit work in chunks
> - Welcome feedback along the way
> http://shaneslides.com/apachecon/TheApacheWay-ApacheConNA2018.html#24
>
> we can't just remove JIRA from the list.
>
> Today JIRA forwarding is an only way to keep Ignite development easy to
> follow by subscribing to dev. list.
>
> If we came to practice that all contributors announce important features
> and bugs, JIRA can be removed. Now it can't.
>
> Which problem we can solve by removing JIRA from the list?
>
> Sincerely,
> Dmitriy Pavlov
>
> чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г. в 17:34, Denis Mekhanikov :
>
> > Guys,
> >
> > I vote for moving automatically generated messages to a separate mailing
> > list (maybe except most important ones).
> > I already wrote about it here:
> >
> >
> http://apache-ignite-developers.2346864.n4.nabble.com/Bots-on-dev-list-td34406.html
> >
> > What we have now makes the Nabble portal an absolute mess with no ability
> > to track human communication.
> > It's even hard to search for old discussions, because messages about JIRA
> > tickets and git commit messages pop in the search results.
> >
> > Making every person configure email filters is waisting everybody's time.
> > Just imagine, how many human-hours has been spent on it.
> > We should respect time of others, and make the separation of emails on
> the
> > sending side.
> >
> > Denis
> >
> > чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г. в 13:20, Dmitriy Pavlov :
> >
> > > IMO we need to run a formal vote on this change, and then PMC chair can
> > > create (or reuse) a separate list for messages from Git repos.
> > >
> > >
> > > ср, 14 нояб. 2018 г. в 16:08, Vladimir Ozerov :
> > >
> > > > Igniters,
> > > >
> > > > I would say that "set the filter" is not a solution. First, it is not
> > > > always possible technically. E.g. I use GMail and my dev-list emails
> > are
> > > > already use a rule. I cannot extract generated emails from overall
> flow
> > > > with GMail capabilities. But the more important things - is why in
> the
> > > > first place someone needs to went through that generated nightmare?
> > > >
> > > > Git messages is a spam. Looks like everyone agrees with that. As far
> as
> > > > JIRA ticket creation - this is all about importance. When someone
> > writes
> > > an
> > > > email to the devlist, this is likely to be important topic requiring
> > > > attention. When someone creates a ticket, most likely this either a
> > bug,
> > > or
> > > > a piece of already discussed issue, or so. In other words - average
> > > devlist
> > > > user is likely to be interested in manual messages and is very
> unlikely
> > > to
> > > > be interested in "Ticket created" messages. Not important information
> > > > overshadows important. Let's continue disucssion this.
> > > >
> > > > As far as Git - what should be done to remove Git messages from the
> > list?
> > > >
> > > > Vladimir.
> > > >
> > > > On Tue, Nov 6, 2018 at 6:49 PM Dmitriy Pavlov  >
> > > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Petr, some manual digest, is probably not needed because Apache
> list
> > > > allows
> > > > > subscribing to digest. dev-digest-subsr...@ignite.apache.org if I
> > > > remember
> > > > > this correctly.
> > > > >
> > > > > вт, 6 нояб. 2018 г. в 18:28, Petr Ivanov :
> > > > >
> > > > > > Can be Jira notifications united in some kind of daily digest?
> > > > > > Maybe we can add special filter (new tasks / updates during last
> 24
> > > > > hours)
> > > > > > with notification scheme?
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > On 6 Nov 2018, at 18:15, Dmitriy Pavlov  >
> > > > wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I should mention I disagree to remove JIRA issues as the first
> > > step.
> >

Re: Time to remove automated messages from the devlist?

[Dmitriy Pavlov]

Hi Denis,

Another side of this decision is the openness of the development.

Since not all contributors pay attention to run their development in an
open/community friendly manner:
- to announce important features, and
- Telegraph their intent
- Draft designs openly
- Submit work in chunks
- Welcome feedback along the way
http://shaneslides.com/apachecon/TheApacheWay-ApacheConNA2018.html#24

we can't just remove JIRA from the list.

Today JIRA forwarding is an only way to keep Ignite development easy to
follow by subscribing to dev. list.

If we came to practice that all contributors announce important features
and bugs, JIRA can be removed. Now it can't.

Which problem we can solve by removing JIRA from the list?

Sincerely,
Dmitriy Pavlov

чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г. в 17:34, Denis Mekhanikov :

> Guys,
>
> I vote for moving automatically generated messages to a separate mailing
> list (maybe except most important ones).
> I already wrote about it here:
>
> http://apache-ignite-developers.2346864.n4.nabble.com/Bots-on-dev-list-td34406.html
>
> What we have now makes the Nabble portal an absolute mess with no ability
> to track human communication.
> It's even hard to search for old discussions, because messages about JIRA
> tickets and git commit messages pop in the search results.
>
> Making every person configure email filters is waisting everybody's time.
> Just imagine, how many human-hours has been spent on it.
> We should respect time of others, and make the separation of emails on the
> sending side.
>
> Denis
>
> чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г. в 13:20, Dmitriy Pavlov :
>
> > IMO we need to run a formal vote on this change, and then PMC chair can
> > create (or reuse) a separate list for messages from Git repos.
> >
> >
> > ср, 14 нояб. 2018 г. в 16:08, Vladimir Ozerov :
> >
> > > Igniters,
> > >
> > > I would say that "set the filter" is not a solution. First, it is not
> > > always possible technically. E.g. I use GMail and my dev-list emails
> are
> > > already use a rule. I cannot extract generated emails from overall flow
> > > with GMail capabilities. But the more important things - is why in the
> > > first place someone needs to went through that generated nightmare?
> > >
> > > Git messages is a spam. Looks like everyone agrees with that. As far as
> > > JIRA ticket creation - this is all about importance. When someone
> writes
> > an
> > > email to the devlist, this is likely to be important topic requiring
> > > attention. When someone creates a ticket, most likely this either a
> bug,
> > or
> > > a piece of already discussed issue, or so. In other words - average
> > devlist
> > > user is likely to be interested in manual messages and is very unlikely
> > to
> > > be interested in "Ticket created" messages. Not important information
> > > overshadows important. Let's continue disucssion this.
> > >
> > > As far as Git - what should be done to remove Git messages from the
> list?
> > >
> > > Vladimir.
> > >
> > > On Tue, Nov 6, 2018 at 6:49 PM Dmitriy Pavlov 
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > > Petr, some manual digest, is probably not needed because Apache list
> > > allows
> > > > subscribing to digest. dev-digest-subsr...@ignite.apache.org if I
> > > remember
> > > > this correctly.
> > > >
> > > > вт, 6 нояб. 2018 г. в 18:28, Petr Ivanov :
> > > >
> > > > > Can be Jira notifications united in some kind of daily digest?
> > > > > Maybe we can add special filter (new tasks / updates during last 24
> > > > hours)
> > > > > with notification scheme?
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > > On 6 Nov 2018, at 18:15, Dmitriy Pavlov 
> > > wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I should mention I disagree to remove JIRA issues as the first
> > step.
> > > It
> > > > > > helps everyone to understand what other people are going to do in
> > the
> > > > > > project.  You always can comment if it is not the best approach,
> > > find a
> > > > > > duplicate issue, and you may suggest help.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > PR notification is more or less duplicates JIRA (as 1 JIRA 1..*
> > PR),
> > > so
> > > > > it
> > > > > > may be ok to move Git's messages to
> > notificati...@ignite.apache.org
> > > > > > 
> > > > > >
> > > > > > But we should keep JIRA and test failures.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > вт, 6 нояб. 2018 г. в 17:49, Alexey Kuznetsov <
> > akuznet...@apache.org
> > > >:
> > > > > >
> > > > > >> Hi!
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> I have filter for e-mail from JIRA (very useful, I can quick
> > search
> > > > > issue
> > > > > >> there without visiting JIRA).
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> And I'm just deleting tons of e-mails from GitBox & about PRs.
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> I don't know what for we need them?
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> May by we try to move GitBox & PRs-related mails first and see
> how
> > > it
> > > > > goes?
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> --
> > > > > >> Alexey Kuznetsov
> > > > > >>
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>

Re: Time to remove automated messages from the devlist?

[Denis Mekhanikov]

Guys,

I vote for moving automatically generated messages to a separate mailing
list (maybe except most important ones).
I already wrote about it here:
http://apache-ignite-developers.2346864.n4.nabble.com/Bots-on-dev-list-td34406.html

What we have now makes the Nabble portal an absolute mess with no ability
to track human communication.
It's even hard to search for old discussions, because messages about JIRA
tickets and git commit messages pop in the search results.

Making every person configure email filters is waisting everybody's time.
Just imagine, how many human-hours has been spent on it.
We should respect time of others, and make the separation of emails on the
sending side.

Denis

чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г. в 13:20, Dmitriy Pavlov :

> IMO we need to run a formal vote on this change, and then PMC chair can
> create (or reuse) a separate list for messages from Git repos.
>
>
> ср, 14 нояб. 2018 г. в 16:08, Vladimir Ozerov :
>
> > Igniters,
> >
> > I would say that "set the filter" is not a solution. First, it is not
> > always possible technically. E.g. I use GMail and my dev-list emails are
> > already use a rule. I cannot extract generated emails from overall flow
> > with GMail capabilities. But the more important things - is why in the
> > first place someone needs to went through that generated nightmare?
> >
> > Git messages is a spam. Looks like everyone agrees with that. As far as
> > JIRA ticket creation - this is all about importance. When someone writes
> an
> > email to the devlist, this is likely to be important topic requiring
> > attention. When someone creates a ticket, most likely this either a bug,
> or
> > a piece of already discussed issue, or so. In other words - average
> devlist
> > user is likely to be interested in manual messages and is very unlikely
> to
> > be interested in "Ticket created" messages. Not important information
> > overshadows important. Let's continue disucssion this.
> >
> > As far as Git - what should be done to remove Git messages from the list?
> >
> > Vladimir.
> >
> > On Tue, Nov 6, 2018 at 6:49 PM Dmitriy Pavlov 
> > wrote:
> >
> > > Petr, some manual digest, is probably not needed because Apache list
> > allows
> > > subscribing to digest. dev-digest-subsr...@ignite.apache.org if I
> > remember
> > > this correctly.
> > >
> > > вт, 6 нояб. 2018 г. в 18:28, Petr Ivanov :
> > >
> > > > Can be Jira notifications united in some kind of daily digest?
> > > > Maybe we can add special filter (new tasks / updates during last 24
> > > hours)
> > > > with notification scheme?
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > On 6 Nov 2018, at 18:15, Dmitriy Pavlov 
> > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > I should mention I disagree to remove JIRA issues as the first
> step.
> > It
> > > > > helps everyone to understand what other people are going to do in
> the
> > > > > project.  You always can comment if it is not the best approach,
> > find a
> > > > > duplicate issue, and you may suggest help.
> > > > >
> > > > > PR notification is more or less duplicates JIRA (as 1 JIRA 1..*
> PR),
> > so
> > > > it
> > > > > may be ok to move Git's messages to
> notificati...@ignite.apache.org
> > > > > 
> > > > >
> > > > > But we should keep JIRA and test failures.
> > > > >
> > > > > вт, 6 нояб. 2018 г. в 17:49, Alexey Kuznetsov <
> akuznet...@apache.org
> > >:
> > > > >
> > > > >> Hi!
> > > > >>
> > > > >> I have filter for e-mail from JIRA (very useful, I can quick
> search
> > > > issue
> > > > >> there without visiting JIRA).
> > > > >>
> > > > >> And I'm just deleting tons of e-mails from GitBox & about PRs.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> I don't know what for we need them?
> > > > >>
> > > > >> May by we try to move GitBox & PRs-related mails first and see how
> > it
> > > > goes?
> > > > >>
> > > > >> --
> > > > >> Alexey Kuznetsov
> > > > >>
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>

Re: Time to remove automated messages from the devlist?

[Dmitriy Pavlov]

IMO we need to run a formal vote on this change, and then PMC chair can
create (or reuse) a separate list for messages from Git repos.


ср, 14 нояб. 2018 г. в 16:08, Vladimir Ozerov :

> Igniters,
>
> I would say that "set the filter" is not a solution. First, it is not
> always possible technically. E.g. I use GMail and my dev-list emails are
> already use a rule. I cannot extract generated emails from overall flow
> with GMail capabilities. But the more important things - is why in the
> first place someone needs to went through that generated nightmare?
>
> Git messages is a spam. Looks like everyone agrees with that. As far as
> JIRA ticket creation - this is all about importance. When someone writes an
> email to the devlist, this is likely to be important topic requiring
> attention. When someone creates a ticket, most likely this either a bug, or
> a piece of already discussed issue, or so. In other words - average devlist
> user is likely to be interested in manual messages and is very unlikely to
> be interested in "Ticket created" messages. Not important information
> overshadows important. Let's continue disucssion this.
>
> As far as Git - what should be done to remove Git messages from the list?
>
> Vladimir.
>
> On Tue, Nov 6, 2018 at 6:49 PM Dmitriy Pavlov 
> wrote:
>
> > Petr, some manual digest, is probably not needed because Apache list
> allows
> > subscribing to digest. dev-digest-subsr...@ignite.apache.org if I
> remember
> > this correctly.
> >
> > вт, 6 нояб. 2018 г. в 18:28, Petr Ivanov :
> >
> > > Can be Jira notifications united in some kind of daily digest?
> > > Maybe we can add special filter (new tasks / updates during last 24
> > hours)
> > > with notification scheme?
> > >
> > >
> > > > On 6 Nov 2018, at 18:15, Dmitriy Pavlov 
> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > I should mention I disagree to remove JIRA issues as the first step.
> It
> > > > helps everyone to understand what other people are going to do in the
> > > > project.  You always can comment if it is not the best approach,
> find a
> > > > duplicate issue, and you may suggest help.
> > > >
> > > > PR notification is more or less duplicates JIRA (as 1 JIRA 1..* PR),
> so
> > > it
> > > > may be ok to move Git's messages to notificati...@ignite.apache.org
> > > > 
> > > >
> > > > But we should keep JIRA and test failures.
> > > >
> > > > вт, 6 нояб. 2018 г. в 17:49, Alexey Kuznetsov  >:
> > > >
> > > >> Hi!
> > > >>
> > > >> I have filter for e-mail from JIRA (very useful, I can quick search
> > > issue
> > > >> there without visiting JIRA).
> > > >>
> > > >> And I'm just deleting tons of e-mails from GitBox & about PRs.
> > > >>
> > > >> I don't know what for we need them?
> > > >>
> > > >> May by we try to move GitBox & PRs-related mails first and see how
> it
> > > goes?
> > > >>
> > > >> --
> > > >> Alexey Kuznetsov
> > > >>
> > >
> > >
> >
>

Re: Time to remove automated messages from the devlist?

[Vladimir Ozerov]

Igniters,

I would say that "set the filter" is not a solution. First, it is not
always possible technically. E.g. I use GMail and my dev-list emails are
already use a rule. I cannot extract generated emails from overall flow
with GMail capabilities. But the more important things - is why in the
first place someone needs to went through that generated nightmare?

Git messages is a spam. Looks like everyone agrees with that. As far as
JIRA ticket creation - this is all about importance. When someone writes an
email to the devlist, this is likely to be important topic requiring
attention. When someone creates a ticket, most likely this either a bug, or
a piece of already discussed issue, or so. In other words - average devlist
user is likely to be interested in manual messages and is very unlikely to
be interested in "Ticket created" messages. Not important information
overshadows important. Let's continue disucssion this.

As far as Git - what should be done to remove Git messages from the list?

Vladimir.

On Tue, Nov 6, 2018 at 6:49 PM Dmitriy Pavlov  wrote:

> Petr, some manual digest, is probably not needed because Apache list allows
> subscribing to digest. dev-digest-subsr...@ignite.apache.org if I remember
> this correctly.
>
> вт, 6 нояб. 2018 г. в 18:28, Petr Ivanov :
>
> > Can be Jira notifications united in some kind of daily digest?
> > Maybe we can add special filter (new tasks / updates during last 24
> hours)
> > with notification scheme?
> >
> >
> > > On 6 Nov 2018, at 18:15, Dmitriy Pavlov  wrote:
> > >
> > > I should mention I disagree to remove JIRA issues as the first step. It
> > > helps everyone to understand what other people are going to do in the
> > > project.  You always can comment if it is not the best approach, find a
> > > duplicate issue, and you may suggest help.
> > >
> > > PR notification is more or less duplicates JIRA (as 1 JIRA 1..* PR), so
> > it
> > > may be ok to move Git's messages to notificati...@ignite.apache.org
> > > 
> > >
> > > But we should keep JIRA and test failures.
> > >
> > > вт, 6 нояб. 2018 г. в 17:49, Alexey Kuznetsov :
> > >
> > >> Hi!
> > >>
> > >> I have filter for e-mail from JIRA (very useful, I can quick search
> > issue
> > >> there without visiting JIRA).
> > >>
> > >> And I'm just deleting tons of e-mails from GitBox & about PRs.
> > >>
> > >> I don't know what for we need them?
> > >>
> > >> May by we try to move GitBox & PRs-related mails first and see how it
> > goes?
> > >>
> > >> --
> > >> Alexey Kuznetsov
> > >>
> >
> >
>

Re: Time to remove automated messages from the devlist?

[Dmitriy Pavlov]

Petr, some manual digest, is probably not needed because Apache list allows
subscribing to digest. dev-digest-subsr...@ignite.apache.org if I remember
this correctly.

вт, 6 нояб. 2018 г. в 18:28, Petr Ivanov :

> Can be Jira notifications united in some kind of daily digest?
> Maybe we can add special filter (new tasks / updates during last 24 hours)
> with notification scheme?
>
>
> > On 6 Nov 2018, at 18:15, Dmitriy Pavlov  wrote:
> >
> > I should mention I disagree to remove JIRA issues as the first step. It
> > helps everyone to understand what other people are going to do in the
> > project.  You always can comment if it is not the best approach, find a
> > duplicate issue, and you may suggest help.
> >
> > PR notification is more or less duplicates JIRA (as 1 JIRA 1..* PR), so
> it
> > may be ok to move Git's messages to notificati...@ignite.apache.org
> > 
> >
> > But we should keep JIRA and test failures.
> >
> > вт, 6 нояб. 2018 г. в 17:49, Alexey Kuznetsov :
> >
> >> Hi!
> >>
> >> I have filter for e-mail from JIRA (very useful, I can quick search
> issue
> >> there without visiting JIRA).
> >>
> >> And I'm just deleting tons of e-mails from GitBox & about PRs.
> >>
> >> I don't know what for we need them?
> >>
> >> May by we try to move GitBox & PRs-related mails first and see how it
> goes?
> >>
> >> --
> >> Alexey Kuznetsov
> >>
>
>

Re: Time to remove automated messages from the devlist?

[Petr Ivanov]

Can be Jira notifications united in some kind of daily digest?
Maybe we can add special filter (new tasks / updates during last 24 hours) with 
notification scheme?


> On 6 Nov 2018, at 18:15, Dmitriy Pavlov  wrote:
> 
> I should mention I disagree to remove JIRA issues as the first step. It
> helps everyone to understand what other people are going to do in the
> project.  You always can comment if it is not the best approach, find a
> duplicate issue, and you may suggest help.
> 
> PR notification is more or less duplicates JIRA (as 1 JIRA 1..* PR), so it
> may be ok to move Git's messages to notificati...@ignite.apache.org
> 
> 
> But we should keep JIRA and test failures.
> 
> вт, 6 нояб. 2018 г. в 17:49, Alexey Kuznetsov :
> 
>> Hi!
>> 
>> I have filter for e-mail from JIRA (very useful, I can quick search issue
>> there without visiting JIRA).
>> 
>> And I'm just deleting tons of e-mails from GitBox & about PRs.
>> 
>> I don't know what for we need them?
>> 
>> May by we try to move GitBox & PRs-related mails first and see how it goes?
>> 
>> --
>> Alexey Kuznetsov
>> 

Re: Time to remove automated messages from the devlist?

[Dmitriy Pavlov]

I should mention I disagree to remove JIRA issues as the first step. It
helps everyone to understand what other people are going to do in the
project.  You always can comment if it is not the best approach, find a
duplicate issue, and you may suggest help.

PR notification is more or less duplicates JIRA (as 1 JIRA 1..* PR), so it
may be ok to move Git's messages to notificati...@ignite.apache.org


But we should keep JIRA and test failures.

вт, 6 нояб. 2018 г. в 17:49, Alexey Kuznetsov :

> Hi!
>
> I have filter for e-mail from JIRA (very useful, I can quick search issue
> there without visiting JIRA).
>
> And I'm just deleting tons of e-mails from GitBox & about PRs.
>
> I don't know what for we need them?
>
> May by we try to move GitBox & PRs-related mails first and see how it goes?
>
> --
> Alexey Kuznetsov
>

Re: Time to remove automated messages from the devlist?

[Alexey Kuznetsov]

Hi!

I have filter for e-mail from JIRA (very useful, I can quick search issue
there without visiting JIRA).

And I'm just deleting tons of e-mails from GitBox & about PRs.

I don't know what for we need them?

May by we try to move GitBox & PRs-related mails first and see how it goes?

-- 
Alexey Kuznetsov

Re: Time to remove automated messages from the devlist?

[Dmitriy Setrakyan]

I just have a filter for Jira emails and automatically go into a different
folder for me.

On Tue, Nov 6, 2018 at 6:40 AM Dmitriy Pavlov  wrote:

> Vova, I've also started such topic about GitBox messages (
>
> https://lists.apache.org/thread.html/1870ba56e0eb9e184d055ef2c84114ea43219d7c845036566f68e880@%3Cdev.ignite.apache.org%3E
> ).
> But it seems no one reacted.
>
> I agree to move out GitHub PR notifications + GitBox messages (see a
> solution in the thread). I disagree about test failures, because a
> contributor may just disappear after a fix, and someone else should pick up
> the test fix.
>
> If we will be open, positive and welcoming we will be still in top-5 dev.
> lists, because we have something to say :)
>
> Here are some thoughts about busy lists that
> - might help to be open,
> - help everyone to feel free to discuss things
> - help to notice a useful staff
>  https://grep.codeconsult.ch/2011/12/06/stefanos-mazzocchis-busy-list-
> pattern/
> 
>
> Sincerely,
> Dmitriy Pavlov
>
> вт, 6 нояб. 2018 г. в 17:31, Vladimir Ozerov :
>
> > Igniters,
> >
> > I noted that the most common action I do on the devlist is clicking "Mark
> > As Read". All I see is JIRA and GitHub notifications. I simply counted
> last
> > 100 threads and found that 89 of them are automated messages, 2 are MTCGA
> > bot messages, and 9 are real human-created threads.
> >
> > Looks like human-created threads are drown inside generated stuff. As
> > potentially new contributor you will hardly figure out what is going on.
> > Does any info about opened tickets and PRs help anyone? Don't we want
> > instead to have a list like this [1] and move all generated stuff to
> > separate lists?
> >
> > The only drawback I see from this action is that we no longer be able to
> > brag about "Top 5 active devlist" in annual ASF summary :-)
> >
> > Thoughts?
> >
> > Vladimir.
> >
> > [1] http://apache-spark-developers-list.1001551.n3.nabble.com/
> >
>

Re: Time to remove automated messages from the devlist?

[Dmitriy Pavlov]

Vova, I've also started such topic about GitBox messages (
https://lists.apache.org/thread.html/1870ba56e0eb9e184d055ef2c84114ea43219d7c845036566f68e880@%3Cdev.ignite.apache.org%3E
).
But it seems no one reacted.

I agree to move out GitHub PR notifications + GitBox messages (see a
solution in the thread). I disagree about test failures, because a
contributor may just disappear after a fix, and someone else should pick up
the test fix.

If we will be open, positive and welcoming we will be still in top-5 dev.
lists, because we have something to say :)

Here are some thoughts about busy lists that
- might help to be open,
- help everyone to feel free to discuss things
- help to notice a useful staff
 https://grep.codeconsult.ch/2011/12/06/stefanos-mazzocchis-busy-list-
pattern/

Sincerely,
Dmitriy Pavlov

вт, 6 нояб. 2018 г. в 17:31, Vladimir Ozerov :

> Igniters,
>
> I noted that the most common action I do on the devlist is clicking "Mark
> As Read". All I see is JIRA and GitHub notifications. I simply counted last
> 100 threads and found that 89 of them are automated messages, 2 are MTCGA
> bot messages, and 9 are real human-created threads.
>
> Looks like human-created threads are drown inside generated stuff. As
> potentially new contributor you will hardly figure out what is going on.
> Does any info about opened tickets and PRs help anyone? Don't we want
> instead to have a list like this [1] and move all generated stuff to
> separate lists?
>
> The only drawback I see from this action is that we no longer be able to
> brag about "Top 5 active devlist" in annual ASF summary :-)
>
> Thoughts?
>
> Vladimir.
>
> [1] http://apache-spark-developers-list.1001551.n3.nabble.com/
>

Time to remove automated messages from the devlist?

[Vladimir Ozerov]

Igniters,

I noted that the most common action I do on the devlist is clicking "Mark
As Read". All I see is JIRA and GitHub notifications. I simply counted last
100 threads and found that 89 of them are automated messages, 2 are MTCGA
bot messages, and 9 are real human-created threads.

Looks like human-created threads are drown inside generated stuff. As
potentially new contributor you will hardly figure out what is going on.
Does any info about opened tickets and PRs help anyone? Don't we want
instead to have a list like this [1] and move all generated stuff to
separate lists?

The only drawback I see from this action is that we no longer be able to
brag about "Top 5 active devlist" in annual ASF summary :-)

Thoughts?

Vladimir.

[1] http://apache-spark-developers-list.1001551.n3.nabble.com/