[freenet-dev] Asynchronous image loading

[Daniel Cheng]

On 17/6/2009 22:36, sashee wrote:
>  this way freenet don't start all the
> fetching, just what is requested... When the page loads, freenet
 > start fetching all the images,

Did you look at your /config/fproxy page ?
There is an option called "Enable prefetching of inline images" ..

> What you think?

:)

[freenet-dev] need graphic design help

[sashee]

As I see in the statistics
(http://www.w3schools.com/browsers/browsers_stats.asp) IE6 has 14.5%
share and radically decreasing. In my opinion, I think it should be
left dead as it should have been a long time ago. I don't think if
somebody uses that good-for-nothing browser, he will be too irritated
seeing something is broken in it.

sashee

On Wed, Jun 17, 2009 at 9:43 PM, Caco Patane wrote:
>> I think he means that users in "poor" areas usually run pirated versions
>> of XP with the included IE6. Many of these installations won't have a
>> functional Windows Update because of the "Genuine Advantage" stuff
>> Microsoft pushes through it. Wich means that they won't get IE updates
>> automatically, and probably won't/can't upgrade manually.
>
> That's it! But not only poor areas, only companies and laptop users
> run genuine software. Brand computers (Dell, IBM, etc) are only
> purchased by multinational corporations. I used an original copy of
> windows for a work in a big corp, not even un goverment offices (kinda
> fun). I think that the same scenarios goes for all latin america...
> Venezuela, Bolivia and Cuba are in "delicate" positions regarding
> freedom of speech. Chavez already closed a TV channel =D
>
> For the PNG thing, we can use the PNG with transparent background and
> in the  tag include:
>
> 
>
> No new image is needed, those javascripts "fix" it.
> ___
> Devl mailing list
> Devl at freenetproject.org
> http://emu.freenetproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/devl
>

[freenet-dev] Recent work on web-pushing branch

[sashee]

> This is going to be very inefficient for a public gateway... otoh maybe 
> that's not an important use case. In fact, it's a privacy issue for a node 
> serving several users over a LAN (or even more so for a public gateway). Can 
> you reasonably easily make it track who is subscribed to which leader?

It should be doable, will think about it.

sashee

[freenet-dev] need graphic design help

[Zero3]

Matthew Toseland skrev:
> On Wednesday 17 June 2009 16:26:35 Caco Patane wrote:
>>> Hmmm... do we care? How many people use IE6 at the moment? And what exactly 
>>> happens on IE6 with 1-bit-transparent PNGs?
>> At least here (latin america) there are tons of IE6 users: because
>> hardware is expensive nobody installs vista, nobody buys original
>> windows copies and don't get the updates. In webdevelopment usually is
>> a requirement to support IE6 -again, in Latinamerica-.
> 
> Hmmm, I thought IE7 was available for XP?

Both IE 7 and IE 8 are available for XP.

I think he means that users in "poor" areas usually run pirated versions 
of XP with the included IE6. Many of these installations won't have a 
functional Windows Update because of the "Genuine Advantage" stuff 
Microsoft pushes through it. Wich means that they won't get IE updates 
automatically, and probably won't/can't upgrade manually.

- Zero3

[freenet-dev] Asynchronous image loading

[sashee]

Ok, I'll schedule that then.
> One thing that *is* critical is that we stop loading the images if the user 
> closes the page, but afaics the existing infrastructure will do that.

I really dont think that anything gets notified when the user closes
the tab. So I dont think fetching is stopped then.

As I see the prefetching has a 1 minute timeout, so it isn't really
solving things. Inline prefetch fetches stuff, but only those, that
are fast, and kills the others. And the browser's request fetches the
other(almost all) images, 2(3) at a time. Asyncronous fetching would
solve that problem, because it can notify(and cancel) the fetches when
the user actually closes the tab.

sashee

On Wed, Jun 17, 2009 at 8:28 PM, Matthew
Toseland wrote:
> On Wednesday 17 June 2009 19:23:22 sashee wrote:
>> So my question is: Is it needed? If it helps, I'll do it before the
>> midterm evals, but if it doesnt improve anything, then no need to
>> program it.
>
> Yes. IMHO it is important. Prefetching has never worked well on new nodes, 
> and doesn't solve the connection limit problem anyway. Also the 
> infrastructure will be interesting as later on we may want notifications on 
> loaded pages (e.g. "there is a more recent version of this page available", 
> but maybe also critical node events).
>
> Feel free to make a very basic implementation where you either have the 
> loaded image or you have a loading graphic with no indication of how far it 
> has got. *Ideally* we'd have the loading images be dependant on how far the 
> request has got, but this isn't essential, certainly not for a first 
> approximation ... another interesting option would be to show a progress bar 
> showing the overall progress, ETA, etc. One thing that *is* critical is that 
> we stop loading the images if the user closes the page, but afaics the 
> existing infrastructure will do that.
>>
>> On Wed, Jun 17, 2009 at 5:44 PM, sashee wrote:
>> > Ok, thats true. But the browser won't show an image till all the image
>> > above are shown, because it uses 2-3 connections to fetch the images
>> > sequentially. It may happen that a few image that fetches very slowly
>> > will hang all the others, even if they are completely present.
>> >
>> > sashee
>> >
>> > On Wed, Jun 17, 2009 at 4:46 PM, Daniel Cheng> > gmail.com> wrote:
>> >> On 17/6/2009 22:36, sashee wrote:
>> >>>  this way freenet don't start all the
>> >>> fetching, just what is requested... When the page loads, freenet
>> >> ?> start fetching all the images,
>> >>
>> >> Did you look at your /config/fproxy page ?
>> >> There is an option called "Enable prefetching of inline images" ..
>> >>
>> >>> What you think?
>> >>
>> >> :)
>
> ___
> Devl mailing list
> Devl at freenetproject.org
> http://emu.freenetproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/devl
>

[freenet-dev] About the website

[3BUIb3S50i 3BUIb3S50i]

Can you make a link to another languages? (Like french wiki.) See
https://bugs.freenetproject.org/view.php?id=2915


On Wed, Jun 17, 2009 at 1:57 PM, Matthew Toseland  wrote:

> On Wednesday 17 June 2009 07:40:18 Arne Babenhauserheide wrote:
> > Am Mittwoch, 17. Juni 2009 05:26:25 schrieb Luke771:
> > > Browse and publish 'freesites' (Freenet-hosted websites)
> >
> > This one sounds very nice to me. It gets people into the freenet-speech
> and at
> > the same time tells them why we use it (what's the difference between a
> > freesite and a normal website).
>
> Currently it is:
>
> Freenet is free software which lets you anonymously share files, browse and
> publish "freesites" (web sites accessible only through Freenet) and chat on
> forums, without fear of censorship. Users are anonymous, and Freenet is
> entirely decentralised. Without anonymity there can never be true freedom of
> speech, and without decentralisation the network would be vulnerable to
> attack.
>
> ___
> Devl mailing list
> Devl at freenetproject.org
> http://emu.freenetproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/devl
>
-- next part --
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: 
<https://emu.freenetproject.org/pipermail/devl/attachments/20090617/ad612d79/attachment.html>

[freenet-dev] Asynchronous image loading

[sashee]

So my question is: Is it needed? If it helps, I'll do it before the
midterm evals, but if it doesnt improve anything, then no need to
program it.

On Wed, Jun 17, 2009 at 5:44 PM, sashee wrote:
> Ok, thats true. But the browser won't show an image till all the image
> above are shown, because it uses 2-3 connections to fetch the images
> sequentially. It may happen that a few image that fetches very slowly
> will hang all the others, even if they are completely present.
>
> sashee
>
> On Wed, Jun 17, 2009 at 4:46 PM, Daniel Cheng 
> wrote:
>> On 17/6/2009 22:36, sashee wrote:
>>>  this way freenet don't start all the
>>> fetching, just what is requested... When the page loads, freenet
>> ?> start fetching all the images,
>>
>> Did you look at your /config/fproxy page ?
>> There is an option called "Enable prefetching of inline images" ..
>>
>>> What you think?
>>
>> :)
>> ___
>> Devl mailing list
>> Devl at freenetproject.org
>> http://emu.freenetproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/devl
>>
>

[freenet-dev] First status report of my GSoC project

[Thomas Bruderer]

Very nice!

sashee wrote:
> When I said pushng, I meant pushing, really. It is achieved via long
> polling, means that the browser makes a connection, and the server
> wait till data changes. If it does, then it replies, and the browser
> opens another connection. So a data change triggers it, and not just
> frequent polling.
>   

-- next part --
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: smime.p7s
Type: application/x-pkcs7-signature
Size: 3537 bytes
Desc: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature
URL: 
<https://emu.freenetproject.org/pipermail/devl/attachments/20090617/58832b98/attachment.bin>

[freenet-dev] Recent work on web-pushing branch

[sashee]

Thats a good summary, couldnt write it better myself.
As for the questions:

> Synchronization issues in PushDataManager: In the early commits this was 
> inconsistent, are you happy with it now?

No, I'm not happy with it yet. It has a fatal bug in there, and I'll
need to debug it. Sometimes a closed tab has make it to the
awaitingNotifications, and it leaks memory.

> Hidden input for the request ID (in PageMaker): is this valid HTML? IIRC it's 
> not inside a form?

Firefox says it's valid, so I think it is

> Is separating data from notifications more efficient, even though it involves 
> more round-trips?

It is needed, because data can be any size, but cookies has a max. It
does involves more round trip, but it's just going to localhost, and
thats fast.

> Re "+" in base64, you could just use a different encoding - the freenet 
> nonstandard base64 for example. You can easily change the base64 code used in 
> the java code to deal with this? OTOH you could avoid it completely with some 
> changes to the wire format...

The "+" is the only problematic character, that is in the BASE64
coding and HTML escaping too. As for now, it hasn't gave me too much
headache, but if it will in the future, I'll consider changing.

> In the cleaner thread:
> + ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? for (Entry entry : new 
> HashMap(isKeepaliveReceived).entrySet()) {
> ...
> + ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? 
> isKeepaliveReceived.put(entry.getKey(), false);
>
> Is this safe? You don't get ConcurrentModificationException's?

It isn't modified concurrently, because a new HashMap is created from
the isKeepaliveReceived map, and it's entrySet is being iterated.

>
> Please use Ticker rather than java timers, because of thread pooling and 
> thread priority issues.

K, will rewrite it

> Would it make sense to randomise the failover interval slightly, so that one 
> fails over and then the other two don't need to?

The failover is randomised, because it is based on the loading of the
page. It is different for every tab.

> You are assuming we will almost never reach MAX_MESSAGES, and in that case 
> the output will just be a little out of date, this is probably reasonable.

MAX_MESSAGES is the maximum difference between the leader's message
count and the followers'. It shouldn't be reached, because it would
need that the leader has receive events in a 100/10=10ms interval, and
thats not possible, an xmlhttpconnection needs more time. If magically
the MAX_MESSAGES is hit, then some notifications will be lost.

> PushDataManager.awaitingNotifications only contains the "leaders", correct? 
> But all events are broadcast to all leaders? (Javadocs for the variables 
> would be nice)

All events are broadcast to all leaders, yes. There is one leader for
every browser, and because we dont know which request belongs to which
browser, we need to broadcast. And because only leaders asks for
notifications, we need only to dispatch them to leaders. Thats what
the serverside failover does. It copies all the notifications from the
old leader's list to the new one.

I've only did the coding part yet. When it seems finalized, I'll write
comments, javadocs and some documents about how it works and how ppl
can code against it.

For the build process to be integrated, I'll need the 2 jars to be
publicly available somewhere. If it is, then everybody could build
even after a distclean.

sashee

[freenet-dev] need graphic design help

[Matthew Toseland]

On Wednesday 17 June 2009 16:26:35 Caco Patane wrote:
> > Hmmm... do we care? How many people use IE6 at the moment? And what exactly 
> > happens on IE6 with 1-bit-transparent PNGs?
> 
> At least here (latin america) there are tons of IE6 users: because
> hardware is expensive nobody installs vista, nobody buys original
> windows copies and don't get the updates. In webdevelopment usually is
> a requirement to support IE6 -again, in Latinamerica-.

Hmmm, I thought IE7 was available for XP?
> 
> IE6 shows the transparent pixels as grey. There are some nasty hacks
> that can be done with JS and can be included using HTML conditional
> comments[1].
> 
> Saludos,
> Caco_Patane 
> 
> [1] http://www.quirksmode.org/css/condcom.html

Can you make a version with a background and some javascript to include it on 
IE6?
-- next part --
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: signature.asc
Type: application/pgp-signature
Size: 835 bytes
Desc: This is a digitally signed message part.
URL: 
<https://emu.freenetproject.org/pipermail/devl/attachments/20090617/6e885b0a/attachment.pgp>

[freenet-dev] Asynchronous image loading

[Matthew Toseland]

On Wednesday 17 June 2009 19:23:22 sashee wrote:
> So my question is: Is it needed? If it helps, I'll do it before the
> midterm evals, but if it doesnt improve anything, then no need to
> program it.

Yes. IMHO it is important. Prefetching has never worked well on new nodes, and 
doesn't solve the connection limit problem anyway. Also the infrastructure will 
be interesting as later on we may want notifications on loaded pages (e.g. 
"there is a more recent version of this page available", but maybe also 
critical node events).

Feel free to make a very basic implementation where you either have the loaded 
image or you have a loading graphic with no indication of how far it has got. 
*Ideally* we'd have the loading images be dependant on how far the request has 
got, but this isn't essential, certainly not for a first approximation ... 
another interesting option would be to show a progress bar showing the overall 
progress, ETA, etc. One thing that *is* critical is that we stop loading the 
images if the user closes the page, but afaics the existing infrastructure will 
do that.
> 
> On Wed, Jun 17, 2009 at 5:44 PM, sashee wrote:
> > Ok, thats true. But the browser won't show an image till all the image
> > above are shown, because it uses 2-3 connections to fetch the images
> > sequentially. It may happen that a few image that fetches very slowly
> > will hang all the others, even if they are completely present.
> >
> > sashee
> >
> > On Wed, Jun 17, 2009 at 4:46 PM, Daniel Cheng<j16sdiz+freenet at gmail.com> 
> > wrote:
> >> On 17/6/2009 22:36, sashee wrote:
> >>>  this way freenet don't start all the
> >>> fetching, just what is requested... When the page loads, freenet
> >> ?> start fetching all the images,
> >>
> >> Did you look at your /config/fproxy page ?
> >> There is an option called "Enable prefetching of inline images" ..
> >>
> >>> What you think?
> >>
> >> :)
-- next part --
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: signature.asc
Type: application/pgp-signature
Size: 835 bytes
Desc: This is a digitally signed message part.
URL: 
<https://emu.freenetproject.org/pipermail/devl/attachments/20090617/9699a7fe/attachment.pgp>

[freenet-dev] Recent work on web-pushing branch

[Matthew Toseland]

In testing, it appears to stick on some pages/files (but maybe that's just 
freenet), and obviously it only updates the progress bar and not the rest of 
the information about a download. I'm guessing maybe failed blocks aren't being 
reported? I haven't seen any indication of any failed blocks in all my testing, 
which seems rather unlikely...

As far as I can see, this is the approximate changelog (detailed comments 
below):
Purpose: To use javascript and a single push connection per browser to update 
various pages in real time. Currently, just the progress page. In future, the 
connections and queue pages will also be refreshed dynamically, and this work 
will also form the basis of a solution for the slow inline image loading 
problem.
Generated code:
- Everything inside staticfiles/freenetjs/ is generated. The contents of this 
dir are deleted when running ant distclean. Generating it requires the GWT 
jars, which compile java to javascript.
- The source code for this is currently in generator/js/.
- The GWT jars must be in generator/js/lib/.
Connection sharing:
- One window makes a connection.
- Every 100ms, followers process messages from the leader.
- Keepalive every 1sec, failover after 3sec.
- Failover assigns a new leader, arbitrated by /failover/ on the node (only 
allows failover from a request ID that was on the awaiting notifications list).
HTMLNode generation:
- Script formatting.
- generateChildren() to render a node's children to a string buffer.
- BaseUpdateableElement: base class of any updatable HTMLNode. Has the original 
ToadletContext, and an updateState() function to regenerate it.
- ProgressBarElement: an updatable element for a progress bar. Refactored from 
fproxy.
- Requests have a unique ID, available from ToadletContext, and put in a hidden 
value in PageMaker.
Event tracking:
- PushDataToadlet: fetch data from here.
- PushNotificationToadlet: poll for updates from here.
- PushKeepaliveToadlet: send keepalives here.
- FailoverToadlet: arbitrates failover.
- PushDataManager: Tracks elements that need updating, elements currently 
displayed, etc.
- Client sends a keepalive every 10 seconds. Anything not received in 21 
seconds is pruned.
Refactoring:
- Factor out FProxyFetchTracker.getFetcher().
Trivial:
- 2x test commits.

My comments about the code:

Synchronization issues in PushDataManager: In the early commits this was 
inconsistent, are you happy with it now?

Hidden input for the request ID (in PageMaker): is this valid HTML? IIRC it's 
not inside a form?

Is separating data from notifications more efficient, even though it involves 
more round-trips?

Re "+" in base64, you could just use a different encoding - the freenet 
nonstandard base64 for example. You can easily change the base64 code used in 
the java code to deal with this? OTOH you could avoid it completely with some 
changes to the wire format...

In the cleaner thread:
+   for (Entry<String, Boolean> entry : new 
HashMap<String, Boolean>(isKeepaliveReceived).entrySet()) {
...
+   
isKeepaliveReceived.put(entry.getKey(), false);

Is this safe? You don't get ConcurrentModificationException's?

Please use Ticker rather than java timers, because of thread pooling and thread 
priority issues.

Would it make sense to randomise the failover interval slightly, so that one 
fails over and then the other two don't need to?

You are assuming we will almost never reach MAX_MESSAGES, and in that case the 
output will just be a little out of date, this is probably reasonable.

PushDataManager.awaitingNotifications only contains the "leaders", correct? But 
all events are broadcast to all leaders? (Javadocs for the variables would be 
nice)
-- next part --
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: signature.asc
Type: application/pgp-signature
Size: 835 bytes
Desc: This is a digitally signed message part.
URL: 
<https://emu.freenetproject.org/pipermail/devl/attachments/20090617/a381b748/attachment.pgp>

[freenet-dev] Asynchronous image loading

[sashee]

Ok, thats true. But the browser won't show an image till all the image
above are shown, because it uses 2-3 connections to fetch the images
sequentially. It may happen that a few image that fetches very slowly
will hang all the others, even if they are completely present.

sashee

On Wed, Jun 17, 2009 at 4:46 PM, Daniel Cheng 
wrote:
> On 17/6/2009 22:36, sashee wrote:
>>  this way freenet don't start all the
>> fetching, just what is requested... When the page loads, freenet
> ?> start fetching all the images,
>
> Did you look at your /config/fproxy page ?
> There is an option called "Enable prefetching of inline images" ..
>
>> What you think?
>
> :)
> ___
> Devl mailing list
> Devl at freenetproject.org
> http://emu.freenetproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/devl
>

[freenet-dev] First status report of my GSoC project

[sashee]

When I said pushng, I meant pushing, really. It is achieved via long
polling, means that the browser makes a connection, and the server
wait till data changes. If it does, then it replies, and the browser
opens another connection. So a data change triggers it, and not just
frequent polling.

sashee

On Wed, Jun 17, 2009 at 4:46 PM, Thomas Bruderer wrote:
> sashee wrote:
>
> This sounds very promising :) and it is certainly a nice feature we all will
> appreciate very much.
>
> However I have a rather technical questions out of curiousity, you talk
> several times about "pushing" the content.
>
>> It is accomplished with ajax requests and javascript at the client side
>> ?so pushing works and connection sharing also
>
>
> Do you really push the content to the browser when the state changed, or
> does the client just poll every 2 seconds as it does now for the complete
> page?
>
> Comparing: http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/AJAX vs
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comet_(programming)
>
> Just curious :) since you use a toadlet I can imagine that both would be
> viable solutions.
>
> Apophis
>
> ___
> Devl mailing list
> Devl at freenetproject.org
> http://emu.freenetproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/devl
>

[freenet-dev] usability testing

[Zero3]

Matthew Toseland skrev:
> On Wednesday 17 June 2009 09:54:18 Zero3 wrote:
>> Matthew Toseland skrev:
>>> On Tuesday 16 June 2009 21:53:09 Zero3 wrote:
 Matthew Toseland skrev:
> On Sunday 14 June 2009 14:24:39 Zero3 wrote:
>> a) On the front page of the website: A "What is Freenet?" teaser linking 
>> to the "What is Freenet?" page would be cool. Confusedly started to read 
>> the news item instead. (She should have spotted the "News" headline, but 
>> I agree on the teaser)
> I think originally the reason for putting news on the main page was that 
> a lot of people check back on the website repeatedly, looking for new 
> stuff (i.e. news) ?:
>
> I agree we should have some basic explanation and link on the home page 
> though ... I am not quite sure whether just copying the first para from 
> "What is Freenet" as Dieppe has done is sufficient?
>
> "Freenet is free software which lets you publish and obtain information 
> on the Internet without fear of censorship. To achieve this freedom, the 
> network is entirely decentralized and publishers and consumers of 
> information are anonymous. Without anonymity there can never be true 
> freedom of speech, and without decentralization the network will be 
> vulnerable to attack."
>
> Followed by a link to learn more, a download link and news.
>
> Is this sufficiently comprehensible to newbies? I guess so, but it 
> doesn't really answer the question!
 I think it's quite good actually! I think "Without anonymity there can 
 never be true freedom of speech") is a bit subjective though.
>>> Alternatives? Clearly anonymity is a direct consequence of the overriding 
>>> goal of thwarting censorship.
>> Ala "The anonymity of Freenet makes true freedom of speech possible"
> 
> Freenet is free software which lets you anonymously share files, browse and 
> publish "freesites" (web sites accessible only through Freenet) and chat on 
> forums, without fear of censorship. Freenet is decentralised to make it less 
> vulnerable to attack.
> 
> Or even:
> 
> Freenet is free software which lets you anonymously share files, browse and 
> publish "freesites" (web sites accessible only through Freenet) and chat on 
> forums, without fear of censorship. Freenet is decentralised to make it less 
> vulnerable to attack, and if used in "darknet" mode, where users only connect 
> to their friends, is very difficult to detect.
> 
> ???

Sounds better to me.

>> Very annoying to be asked to install a second  
>> browser. In this case, a third (using FF with IE as backup. And user is 
>> asked not to use IE). More FUD about history leaks. 
> FUD stands for Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt. Unfortunately, the warnings 
> about browser history stealing are factually true. Perhaps there is an 
> argument for not naming such attacks if this intimidates people? Is the 
> problem with IE important? There are possibilities for working around it, 
> there has never been much enthusiasm for implementing them (even from ian 
> who tends to be usability oriented).
 Exactly. The user is fears the consequences of history leaks and is 
 uncertain what he ought to do, and thereby doubts his security and 
 privacy using Freenet.
>>> He knows what he needs to do - use a separate browser. Don't we make that 
>>> clear? It may be annoying but it is clear, no?
>> It is indeed very clear, but as you say, also damn annoying. If 
>> possible, I think we should avoid annoying the user.
> 
> Well, any suggestions you may have... afaics the best option on windows is to 
> run Chrome in incognito mode, and tell the wizard not to show the warning. 
> But in that case we need to warn the user if they ever use another browser - 
> and we can't tell the difference between Chrome in incognito mode and Chrome 
> not in incognito mode, so I think we should display the warning anyway, we 
> just need to rewrite it a bit for the case where we are using Chrome in 
> incognito mode:
> 
> "You must always use a browser with incognito mode for Freenet!
> 
> You are currently using Freenet through Chrome in incognito mode. This should 
> be safe. You should always access Freenet using Chrome in incognito mode, or 
> through a browser you do not using for normal web browsing. The Browse 
> Freenet link on the start menu should use Chrome in incognito mode, and so 
> should be safe. Most browsers will work well with Freenet, except for 
> Internet Explorer.
> 
> Click here to continue."
> 
> ???

I don't think we should display a warning when the user is browsing in 
incognito mode. When the user is not (or we don't know for sure), we 
could do it.

- Zero3

[freenet-dev] First status report of my GSoC project

[Thomas Bruderer]

sashee wrote:

This sounds very promising :) and it is certainly a nice feature we all 
will appreciate very much.

However I have a rather technical questions out of curiousity, you talk 
several times about "pushing" the content.

> It is accomplished with ajax requests and javascript at the client side
>   
> so pushing works and connection sharing also


Do you really push the content to the browser when the state changed, or 
does the client just poll every 2 seconds as it does now for the 
complete page?

Comparing: http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/AJAX vs 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comet_(programming)

Just curious :) since you use a toadlet I can imagine that both would be 
viable solutions.

Apophis
-- next part --
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: smime.p7s
Type: application/x-pkcs7-signature
Size: 3537 bytes
Desc: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature
URL: 
<https://emu.freenetproject.org/pipermail/devl/attachments/20090617/76786246/attachment.bin>

[freenet-dev] need graphic design help

[Caco Patane]

> I think he means that users in "poor" areas usually run pirated versions
> of XP with the included IE6. Many of these installations won't have a
> functional Windows Update because of the "Genuine Advantage" stuff
> Microsoft pushes through it. Wich means that they won't get IE updates
> automatically, and probably won't/can't upgrade manually.

That's it! But not only poor areas, only companies and laptop users
run genuine software. Brand computers (Dell, IBM, etc) are only
purchased by multinational corporations. I used an original copy of
windows for a work in a big corp, not even un goverment offices (kinda
fun). I think that the same scenarios goes for all latin america...
Venezuela, Bolivia and Cuba are in "delicate" positions regarding
freedom of speech. Chavez already closed a TV channel =D

For the PNG thing, we can use the PNG with transparent background and
in the  tag include:



No new image is needed, those javascripts "fix" it.

[freenet-dev] Asynchronous image loading

[sashee]

Hello folks!

Some days ago, I've talked with nextgens about toadlet
continuations(it's asynchronous request processing), and he had a
point that when the user opens a site with lots of images, then it
needs many connections open for a long time, and it spawns many
threads at serverside, which is resource demanding and some OSes don't
allow. The browser has a maximum connection limit to the site, but the
user can overwrite it. But at the default, firefox opens only 2-3
connections to fetch the images, this way freenet don't start all the
fetching, just what is requested. So one problem is that if a user
alters the browser's config, then it will result many threads, if not,
then freenet can't download all the content simultanously.
I think with pushing, I'm working on, can be a solution for both
problems. When the page loads, freenet start fetching all the images,
and the browser gets the progress with 1 permanent connection. There
can be an image eg. "Image is loading...10%" and after some progress
change to 20% and so on, and when finishes downloading, it shows or
says eg. "Image finished loading, click to display". If it's done, we
don't need continuations anymore. Ofc it would need javascript to be
enabled.

What you think?

sashee

[freenet-dev] Asynchronous image loading

[Matthew Toseland]

On Wednesday 17 June 2009 15:36:26 sashee wrote:
> Hello folks!
> 
> Some days ago, I've talked with nextgens about toadlet
> continuations(it's asynchronous request processing), and he had a
> point that when the user opens a site with lots of images, then it
> needs many connections open for a long time, and it spawns many
> threads at serverside, which is resource demanding and some OSes don't
> allow. The browser has a maximum connection limit to the site, but the
> user can overwrite it. But at the default, firefox opens only 2-3
> connections to fetch the images, this way freenet don't start all the
> fetching, just what is requested. So one problem is that if a user
> alters the browser's config, then it will result many threads, if not,
> then freenet can't download all the content simultanously.
> I think with pushing, I'm working on, can be a solution for both
> problems. When the page loads, freenet start fetching all the images,
> and the browser gets the progress with 1 permanent connection. There
> can be an image eg. "Image is loading...10%" and after some progress
> change to 20% and so on, and when finishes downloading, it shows or
> says eg. "Image finished loading, click to display". If it's done, we
> don't need continuations anymore. Ofc it would need javascript to be
> enabled.

IMHO it should just replace the progress image with the final image contents, 
i.e. change the link to point to the image now that we know it's been fetched 
(use some caching to avoid stalling, but mostly it should load fast).
> 
> What you think?

Apart from that, it sounds like a good solution.
> 
> sashee
-- next part --
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: signature.asc
Type: application/pgp-signature
Size: 835 bytes
Desc: This is a digitally signed message part.
URL: 
<https://emu.freenetproject.org/pipermail/devl/attachments/20090617/b9c9b9de/attachment.pgp>

[freenet-dev] need graphic design help

[Matthew Toseland]

On Wednesday 17 June 2009 14:27:28 Caco Patane wrote:
> > Cool. We could actually do that in CSS, we should probably have hops as a 
> > png rather than SVG but that's easy... Would you mind exporting the logo as 
> > a transparent PNG of the correct dimensions, for the time being?
> 
> Be aware of PNG because IE6 does not support well PNG transparency (is
> IE6 anyway...).

Hmmm... do we care? How many people use IE6 at the moment? And what exactly 
happens on IE6 with 1-bit-transparent PNGs?
-- next part --
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: signature.asc
Type: application/pgp-signature
Size: 835 bytes
Desc: This is a digitally signed message part.
URL: 
<https://emu.freenetproject.org/pipermail/devl/attachments/20090617/3bc0f310/attachment.pgp>

[freenet-dev] First status report of my GSoC project

[sashee]

On Wed, Jun 17, 2009 at 3:09 PM, Matthew
Toseland wrote:
> On Wednesday 17 June 2009 13:27:10 sashee wrote:
>> Hello everybody!
>>
>> This is time for my first status report, because mid-term evals are 
>> approaching.
>>
>> Some introduction, what I'm doing exactly. My project is to introduce
>> web pushing to the web interface. That actually means, that the data
>> displayed are refreshed automatically, without the need to refresh the
>> whole page. It is accomplished with ajax requests and javascript at
>> the client side, and some toadlets at the serverside. Toad had a
>> concern about the number of opened connections, so a connection
>> sharing mechanism is also a requirement. This connection sharing
>> ensures that only 1 permanent connection is used per browser, no
>> matter how many tabs are open. Another requirement is that the web
>> interface must be usable when javascript is disabled(but pushing wont
>> work that way)
>>
>> About my current status:I've created the basic infrastructure both
>> server and client side, so pushing works and connection sharing also.
>
> Great! You have tested this?

Yes, you can test it too, by going to the status page with 2 browser
tabs. You will see the numbers counting on both of them. Then close
the one that you opened earlier(that holds the connection) and see the
other tab. It should stop for 3-4 seconds(in that time, it realises,
that there is no open connection, and opens a new one), and will
continue counting.

>
>> Currently only the progress bar on the progress page is pushed, but it
>> nicely visualize the feature. The client side is written in java, and
>> transformed to javascript with the help of the GWT compiler.
>
> Very nice.
>>
>> How to check the current status:
>> Pull and checkout to the web-pushing branch, then build the project.
>> Please don't distclean, because it will delete the generated
>> javascript, and you won't be able to generate it yourself atm. Then
>> start Freenet, and open a browser with it. You have to enable
>> javascript both on your browser and on Freenet. Now you should browse
>> Freenet, and see the progress bar is updating, and when the loading is
>> ready, you get the page you just fetched. I've put some tester
>> elements at the status page, they are increased by 1 every second.
>> They help to see bugs, as they use pushing heavily.
>>
>> I've tested it at Firefox both windows and linux, and IE7. They worked
>> well, although testing on other systems would be helpful.
>
> Chrome compatibility is important. The current progress bar javascript 
> doesn't work on Chrome, we have to detect AppleWebKit (also used for Safari, 
> default browser on OS/X) and fall back to a refresh at the moment. Chrome is 
> important because it is the only currently shipping browser to have an 
> incognito mode; hence, on Windows, if Chrome is installed, we use it. 
> Hopefully GWT solves the compatibility issues the hand-crafted code has, but 
> we need to verify this.

I've tried Chrome and it worked like the others.

>>
>> Please don't use pushing, just for testing and reviewing. It has some
>> major bug that needs to be addressed. But feedback is always
>> appreciated.
>>
>> What's next?
>> As I've 3 weeks before mid term eval, I'll fix the known bugs and
>> optimize some processes, and it also needs be documented and
>> commented. The pushing can also be used for the images' loading, but
>> I'll write a separate email about that.
>
> That would be very helpful yes, probably more important than the original 
> project of making the various status pages dynamically update.
>
> Apologies for not reviewing/testing your code so far, have been busy with the 
> release. I'm not here from the 20th to the 27th so I will try to review all 
> recent changes, especially for my SoC students, and test the code where 
> possible.

No problem, I've had work to do anyway.

>>
>> sashee
>

[freenet-dev] need graphic design help

[Clément]

On Wednesday 17 June 2009 14:54:21 Matthew Toseland wrote:
> On Wednesday 17 June 2009 01:03:38 Cl?ment wrote:
> > On Wednesday 17 June 2009 01:18:28 Ian Clarke wrote:
> > > Ok, we need some help with the website, surely someone out there knows
> > > their way around Gimp, or Adobe Illustrator or something, or has a
> > > friend that does?
> > >
> > > Highest priorities:
> > >
> > > - Fix the logo on the website - it should be "Freenet", not "FreeNet"
> >
> > See attached (I sent the svg file, so everyone can edit it).
>
> Cool. We could actually do that in CSS, we should probably have hops as a
> png rather than SVG but that's easy... Would you mind exporting the logo as
> a transparent PNG of the correct dimensions, for the time being?
>
See attached.
> > > - Create a decent "Get Freenet" button, something vaguely like what
> > > they have on http://getfirefox.com/ or http://jquery.com/.  Stuff like
> > > "Version" should be overlayed in text, not drawn on the image, so that
> > > it can be changed easily.
> >
> > I asked my girlfriend for that. It should be done by tomorrow. I can't
> > have any guarantee for the result of course :)
> >
> :)

-- next part --
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: freenet_logo.png
Type: image/png
Size: 4801 bytes
Desc: not available
URL: 
<https://emu.freenetproject.org/pipermail/devl/attachments/20090617/c7f53a7f/attachment.png>

[freenet-dev] First status report of my GSoC project

[sashee]

Hello everybody!

This is time for my first status report, because mid-term evals are approaching.

Some introduction, what I'm doing exactly. My project is to introduce
web pushing to the web interface. That actually means, that the data
displayed are refreshed automatically, without the need to refresh the
whole page. It is accomplished with ajax requests and javascript at
the client side, and some toadlets at the serverside. Toad had a
concern about the number of opened connections, so a connection
sharing mechanism is also a requirement. This connection sharing
ensures that only 1 permanent connection is used per browser, no
matter how many tabs are open. Another requirement is that the web
interface must be usable when javascript is disabled(but pushing wont
work that way)

About my current status:I've created the basic infrastructure both
server and client side, so pushing works and connection sharing also.
Currently only the progress bar on the progress page is pushed, but it
nicely visualize the feature. The client side is written in java, and
transformed to javascript with the help of the GWT compiler.

How to check the current status:
Pull and checkout to the web-pushing branch, then build the project.
Please don't distclean, because it will delete the generated
javascript, and you won't be able to generate it yourself atm. Then
start Freenet, and open a browser with it. You have to enable
javascript both on your browser and on Freenet. Now you should browse
Freenet, and see the progress bar is updating, and when the loading is
ready, you get the page you just fetched. I've put some tester
elements at the status page, they are increased by 1 every second.
They help to see bugs, as they use pushing heavily.

I've tested it at Firefox both windows and linux, and IE7. They worked
well, although testing on other systems would be helpful.

Please don't use pushing, just for testing and reviewing. It has some
major bug that needs to be addressed. But feedback is always
appreciated.

What's next?
As I've 3 weeks before mid term eval, I'll fix the known bugs and
optimize some processes, and it also needs be documented and
commented. The pushing can also be used for the images' loading, but
I'll write a separate email about that.

sashee

[freenet-dev] First status report of my GSoC project

[Matthew Toseland]

On Wednesday 17 June 2009 13:27:10 sashee wrote:
> Hello everybody!
> 
> This is time for my first status report, because mid-term evals are 
> approaching.
> 
> Some introduction, what I'm doing exactly. My project is to introduce
> web pushing to the web interface. That actually means, that the data
> displayed are refreshed automatically, without the need to refresh the
> whole page. It is accomplished with ajax requests and javascript at
> the client side, and some toadlets at the serverside. Toad had a
> concern about the number of opened connections, so a connection
> sharing mechanism is also a requirement. This connection sharing
> ensures that only 1 permanent connection is used per browser, no
> matter how many tabs are open. Another requirement is that the web
> interface must be usable when javascript is disabled(but pushing wont
> work that way)
> 
> About my current status:I've created the basic infrastructure both
> server and client side, so pushing works and connection sharing also.

Great! You have tested this?

> Currently only the progress bar on the progress page is pushed, but it
> nicely visualize the feature. The client side is written in java, and
> transformed to javascript with the help of the GWT compiler.

Very nice.
> 
> How to check the current status:
> Pull and checkout to the web-pushing branch, then build the project.
> Please don't distclean, because it will delete the generated
> javascript, and you won't be able to generate it yourself atm. Then
> start Freenet, and open a browser with it. You have to enable
> javascript both on your browser and on Freenet. Now you should browse
> Freenet, and see the progress bar is updating, and when the loading is
> ready, you get the page you just fetched. I've put some tester
> elements at the status page, they are increased by 1 every second.
> They help to see bugs, as they use pushing heavily.
> 
> I've tested it at Firefox both windows and linux, and IE7. They worked
> well, although testing on other systems would be helpful.

Chrome compatibility is important. The current progress bar javascript doesn't 
work on Chrome, we have to detect AppleWebKit (also used for Safari, default 
browser on OS/X) and fall back to a refresh at the moment. Chrome is important 
because it is the only currently shipping browser to have an incognito mode; 
hence, on Windows, if Chrome is installed, we use it. Hopefully GWT solves the 
compatibility issues the hand-crafted code has, but we need to verify this.
> 
> Please don't use pushing, just for testing and reviewing. It has some
> major bug that needs to be addressed. But feedback is always
> appreciated.
> 
> What's next?
> As I've 3 weeks before mid term eval, I'll fix the known bugs and
> optimize some processes, and it also needs be documented and
> commented. The pushing can also be used for the images' loading, but
> I'll write a separate email about that.

That would be very helpful yes, probably more important than the original 
project of making the various status pages dynamically update.

Apologies for not reviewing/testing your code so far, have been busy with the 
release. I'm not here from the 20th to the 27th so I will try to review all 
recent changes, especially for my SoC students, and test the code where 
possible.
> 
> sashee
-- next part --
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: signature.asc
Type: application/pgp-signature
Size: 835 bytes
Desc: This is a digitally signed message part.
URL: 
<https://emu.freenetproject.org/pipermail/devl/attachments/20090617/e4b557c3/attachment.pgp>

[freenet-dev] Good screenshots needed

[Daniel Cheng]

On Wed, Jun 17, 2009 at 10:16 AM, Ian Clarke wrote:
> I've been doing quite a bit of work in my day job with people who have
> done a vast amount of testing of the effectiveness of different
> website designs.
>
> If I were to condense what I've learned into a single caveman
> sentence, it would be:
>
> ?"Big dense blocks of text: BAD, Pictures: GOOD"

The bad thing is: our fproxy homepage don't have any picture.

Those little ActiveLinks icons got disabled by default.

>
> Screenshots are important, when I want to get a sense of a piece of
> software one of the first things I look for is a screenshot.
>
> Ian.
>
> --
> Ian Clarke
> CEO, Uprizer Labs
> Email: ian at uprizer.com
> Ph: +1 512 422 3588
> Fax: +1 512 276 6674
> ___
> Devl mailing list
> Devl at freenetproject.org
> http://emu.freenetproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/devl
>

[freenet-dev] Good screenshots needed

[Matthew Toseland]

On Wednesday 17 June 2009 08:17:56 Arne Babenhauserheide wrote:
> Am Mittwoch, 17. Juni 2009 08:06:30 schrieb Daniel Cheng:
> > The bad thing is: our fproxy homepage don't have any picture.
> >
> > Those little ActiveLinks icons got disabled by default.
> 
> Try using Firefox - at least for me it shows the activelinks. 

Only because they're enabled in your config. They are off by default.
-- next part --
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: signature.asc
Type: application/pgp-signature
Size: 835 bytes
Desc: This is a digitally signed message part.
URL: 
<https://emu.freenetproject.org/pipermail/devl/attachments/20090617/d1bb63db/attachment.pgp>

[freenet-dev] Good screenshots needed

[Matthew Toseland]

On Wednesday 17 June 2009 07:06:30 Daniel Cheng wrote:
> On Wed, Jun 17, 2009 at 10:16 AM, Ian Clarke wrote:
> > I've been doing quite a bit of work in my day job with people who have
> > done a vast amount of testing of the effectiveness of different
> > website designs.
> >
> > If I were to condense what I've learned into a single caveman
> > sentence, it would be:
> >
> > ?"Big dense blocks of text: BAD, Pictures: GOOD"
> 
> The bad thing is: our fproxy homepage don't have any picture.
> 
> Those little ActiveLinks icons got disabled by default.

Well, hopefully people's default instinct to search will be less of a problem 
in future versions because we'll have a non-schizophrenic search index?
> 
> > Screenshots are important, when I want to get a sense of a piece of
> > software one of the first things I look for is a screenshot.
> >
> > Ian.
-- next part --
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: signature.asc
Type: application/pgp-signature
Size: 835 bytes
Desc: This is a digitally signed message part.
URL: 
<https://emu.freenetproject.org/pipermail/devl/attachments/20090617/09c8e389/attachment.pgp>

[freenet-dev] Good screenshots needed

[Matthew Toseland]

On Wednesday 17 June 2009 03:16:18 Ian Clarke wrote:
> I've been doing quite a bit of work in my day job with people who have
> done a vast amount of testing of the effectiveness of different
> website designs.
> 
> If I were to condense what I've learned into a single caveman
> sentence, it would be:
> 
>   "Big dense blocks of text: BAD, Pictures: GOOD"
> 
> Screenshots are important, when I want to get a sense of a piece of
> software one of the first things I look for is a screenshot.

Yes but screenshots with no visible news, and which aren't updated for years? 
Doesn't that put off the significant number of people who've tried Freenet 
before and come back on a slashdot to see if it's improved?
-- next part --
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: signature.asc
Type: application/pgp-signature
Size: 835 bytes
Desc: This is a digitally signed message part.
URL: 
<https://emu.freenetproject.org/pipermail/devl/attachments/20090617/3108b00b/attachment.pgp>

[freenet-dev] need graphic design help

[Matthew Toseland]

On Wednesday 17 June 2009 01:19:23 Gerard Krol wrote:
> Cl?ment wrote:
> > On Wednesday 17 June 2009 01:18:28 Ian Clarke wrote:
> >   
> >> Ok, we need some help with the website, surely someone out there knows
> >> their way around Gimp, or Adobe Illustrator or something, or has a
> >> friend that does?
> >>
> >> Highest priorities:
> >>
> >> - Fix the logo on the website - it should be "Freenet", not "FreeNet"
> >>
> >> 
> > See attached (I sent the svg file, so everyone can edit it).
> >   
> I made the text bold and move the rabbit behind it. It now looks vaguely 
> familiar.
> I don't hope I copied some other well known logo.
> 
> Let me know what you think!

IMHO Dieppe's version is better, but what we really need is a button for 
downloading it... Something that could live on the main page directly under the 
what is freenet section, above the news (or screenshots). Ian suggests 
something like the firefox download icon - that involves their project symbol 
and a gradient, so it's pretty straightforward, and then we can put easily 
edited text on top via CSS.
-- next part --
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: signature.asc
Type: application/pgp-signature
Size: 835 bytes
Desc: This is a digitally signed message part.
URL: 
<https://emu.freenetproject.org/pipermail/devl/attachments/20090617/a7f79b7e/attachment.pgp>

[freenet-dev] need graphic design help

[Matthew Toseland]

On Wednesday 17 June 2009 01:03:38 Cl?ment wrote:
> On Wednesday 17 June 2009 01:18:28 Ian Clarke wrote:
> > Ok, we need some help with the website, surely someone out there knows
> > their way around Gimp, or Adobe Illustrator or something, or has a
> > friend that does?
> >
> > Highest priorities:
> >
> > - Fix the logo on the website - it should be "Freenet", not "FreeNet"
> >
> See attached (I sent the svg file, so everyone can edit it).

Cool. We could actually do that in CSS, we should probably have hops as a png 
rather than SVG but that's easy... Would you mind exporting the logo as a 
transparent PNG of the correct dimensions, for the time being?

> > - Create a decent "Get Freenet" button, something vaguely like what
> > they have on http://getfirefox.com/ or http://jquery.com/.  Stuff like
> > "Version" should be overlayed in text, not drawn on the image, so that
> > it can be changed easily.
> >
> I asked my girlfriend for that. It should be done by tomorrow. I can't have 
> any guarantee for the result of course :)

:)
-- next part --
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: signature.asc
Type: application/pgp-signature
Size: 835 bytes
Desc: This is a digitally signed message part.
URL: 
<https://emu.freenetproject.org/pipermail/devl/attachments/20090617/ee8cb02a/attachment.pgp>

[freenet-dev] Beta of Windows tray icon + update.cmd updating

[Matthew Toseland]

On Wednesday 17 June 2009 02:45:19 Juiceman wrote:
> On Tue, Jun 16, 2009 at 7:53 PM, Matthew
> Toseland wrote:
> > On Wednesday 17 June 2009 00:48:44 Juiceman wrote:
> >> On Tue, Jun 16, 2009 at 7:16 PM, Matthew
> >> Toseland wrote:
> >> > On Tuesday 16 June 2009 23:16:58 Zero3 wrote:
> >> >> I've successfully (I think?) branched the master branch of
> >> >> wininstaller-staging at github to a new beta branch. This branch now
> >> >> contains the upcoming Windows tray icon.
> >> >>
> >> >> Please feel free to test. Even small fixes like spelling and grammar is
> >> >> more than welcome (because mine suck ;)).
> >> >>
> >> >> Source: http://github.com/freenet/wininstaller-staging/tree/beta
> >> >> Binary: http://privat.zero3.dk/FreenetInstaller_Beta.exe (old jars,
> >> >> seednodes, translations and so on. Not meant for anything but testing)
> >> >
> >> > Cool!
> >> >>
> >> >> The update.cmd script will soon need to support the updating of various
> >> >> helper executables, most importantly freenetlauncher.exe, but if
> >> >> possible, all of them.
> >> >
> >> > Ok.
> >> >>
> >> >> (Are these on the website somewhere yet Matthew? Along with a plan of
> >> >> how they are kept up-to-date...)
> >> >>
> >> >> If update.cmd tries to update bin\freenettray.exe, it should first do
> >> >> something like:
> >> >>
> >> >> taskkill /IM freenettray.exe
> >> >> if not errorlevel 1 
> >> >>
> >> >> (... as we can't update running Windows executables)
> >> >
> >> > https://checksums.freenetproject.org/cc/[filename]
> >> > for filename in:
> >> > wrapper-windows-x86-32.exe wrapper-windows-x86-32.dll start.exe stop.exe 
> >> > freenetlauncher.exe
> >>
> >> It would be great if we could see the directory listing when we access
> >> https://checksums.freenetproject.org/cc/ is this possible?
> >>
> >> How do you suggest we check for newer versions of the files?
> >> Downloading them all and then comparing is a waste of bandwidth... I
> >> could compare the .sha1 of the files if those exist. ?That would be
> >> minuscule bandwidth.
> >>
> >> I propose to start checking freenet-ext.jar this way, saving almost 4mb 
> >> per run.
> >
> > Yes, that is exactly how it is supposed to work. Furthermore, checking the 
> > .sha1 over HTTPS is a good thing in terms of security. So please go for it!
> 
> I can't tell for sure because directory listing is denied on that
> folder of the website, but I don't think the .sha1 files for the
> downloads are in https://checksums.freenetproject.org/cc/

Hmmm, that's wierd. Get the sha1 from /latest/ then.
-- next part --
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: signature.asc
Type: application/pgp-signature
Size: 835 bytes
Desc: This is a digitally signed message part.
URL: 
<https://emu.freenetproject.org/pipermail/devl/attachments/20090617/fa573f14/attachment.pgp>

[freenet-dev] usability testing

[Matthew Toseland]

out them.

"Enable Universal Plug and Play. Disable this if you are directly connected to 
your ISP (e.g. via dial-up modem or building-level ethernet) or have untrusted 
people on your local network, and you are worried about local attacks. Most 
users should leave this enabled."
> 
> > JSTUN does help even with opennet, but yes it probably isn't necessary - if 
> > we lose all our peers, we reannounce, and seednodes tell us our new IP 
> > address...
> 
> Hmm.

It is true that we pick up our IP address from our seed servers when we 
connect, but on the other hand, this does need to be tested; we need to connect 
to 3 or so to be confident about our IP address, meaning we should wait until 
then before sending announcements, so there may be complications...

Perhaps JSTUN should default to off on opennet? Anything that discourages users 
from using darknet is a *BAD THING* in terms of their security individually and 
the robustness of the network at large.

"Enable automatic detection of our IP address via STUN servers (also used by 
telephony apps). This generally makes your connection more reliable, especially 
if you only connect to friends. However it might be used to help identify your 
node. You do not need this if you have a static IP address, and tell the node 
what it is, or if UPnP works (above), but UPnP tends to be unreliable. Most 
users should leave this enabled."

And yes, we do tell the user to load the plugins if we don't have IP detection 
plugins loaded and are having difficulty detecting our IP address. Although 
IIRC we don't tell them if we just have UPnP loaded, we probably should...
> 
> > On darknet you really need one of the two, or a static/dyndns IP address, 
> > or at least an online peer that hasn't changed its address...
> >>>> h) FUD on the main fproxy page after finally getting through the wizard: 
> >>> Is there an implication here that it is too long? Any suggestions as to 
> >>> what to take out? Taking a big chunk of the user's disk space and 
> >>> bandwidth without asking used to lose us quite a few users. Making 
> >>> assumptions about security is likely to cause problems for those few 
> >>> users that do need it... I have considered getting rid of the welcome 
> >>> page at the beginning that allows you to not use the wizard...
> >> A bit too long, yeah. On top of my head:
> >>
> >> Welcome page: Move general info to next page, put a skip button in the 
> >> header/footer/corner somewhere on all other pages instead.
> > 
> > Or just get rid of it. IMHO just casually skipping it is the easy way out 
> > and will require us to implement dangerous defaults. We should just dump 
> > it. Advanced users will figure out that once you get past the browser 
> > warning it will think you've completed it anyway, everyone else needs to go 
> > through the wizard.
> >> Ram usage: Don't ask. Either use static default (as now) or dynamic 
> >> according to available memory. Advanced users can adjust it in settings 
> >> afterwards.
> > 
> > We don't ask for ram usage any more. Do we?
> 
> We did not very long ago. Dunno?

We don't.
> 
> >> IP detection page: See above.

What about the "Welcome on board!" page? It is repeating ourselves, isn't it? 
Does it contribute anything of value?
> >>
> >> Security levels: Perhaps figure out some smart way to merge either some 
> >> of the levels or some of the pages?
> > 
> > One very long page which nobody will read? IMHO they are logically 
> > distinct, and significant. For example, if the physical security level is 
> > set to LOW temp file handling and thus the responsiveness of the node are 
> > considerably improved. Arguably we only need a friends security level if we 
> > add darknet peers, but we want users to add darknet peers, and we want to 
> > be secure by default, i.e. ask them BEFORE they add a peer...
> >>>> Big read warning about connecting to the network. (Agreed. Since this is 
> >>>> to be expected, we shouldn't display a big, fat, red warning box. This 
> >>>> makes users go FUD and think they did something wrong or something is 
> >>>> broken. Make it a big, fat infobox instad.
> >>> What big red warning? "The node is trying to connect to the network, it 
> >>> will be slow for a while." ??? How is this FUD? Users don't read, and 
> >>> have unrealistic expectations, so it is IMHO essential to tell them, 
> >>> while we have less than 10 peers, that Freenet may be slow for a while. 
> >>> Several times when I have done test installs this hasn't even shown up 
> >>> since it has reached 10 peers before showing the browse page!
> >> There will probably always be people around who refuse to read. I 
> >> personally don't think we should sacifice usability for smart users to 
> >> satisfy the stupid ones :).
> > 
> > I don't see why it is a usability issue, we are simply telling the user the 
> > facts.
> >> It's not so much the size that bugged the reviewer, but rather the fact 
> >> that it was presented as a *red warning* and not as an white infobox or 
> >> similar.
> > 
> > Messages do not belong in infoboxes, they belong in messages. If you want 
> > the detail you click on it and it will show you the detail in an infobox. 
> > So really what he is complaining about is the little red X icon next to it. 
> > The purpose of which is to draw the user's attention. This is only shown if 
> > bootstrapping is particularly slow as I mentioned above...
> 
> I think I'm explaining myself poorly. The format of the text is good, it 
>   just shouldn't be a marked red (with icon + the whole box turns red 
> because of it).

The format of the text is identical for any message.
> 
> Since the node won't connect to opennet peers before we go through the 
> wizard, it most likely won't have 10 peers when the user sees the fproxy 
> homepage for the first time.

Depends on how fast bootstrapping is, we start adding opennet peers as soon as 
the network seclevel is set.
> 
> - Zero3
-- next part --
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: signature.asc
Type: application/pgp-signature
Size: 835 bytes
Desc: This is a digitally signed message part.
URL: 
<https://emu.freenetproject.org/pipermail/devl/attachments/20090617/1851fa49/attachment.pgp>

[freenet-dev] About the website

[Matthew Toseland]

On Wednesday 17 June 2009 07:40:18 Arne Babenhauserheide wrote:
> Am Mittwoch, 17. Juni 2009 05:26:25 schrieb Luke771:
> > Browse and publish 'freesites' (Freenet-hosted websites)
> 
> This one sounds very nice to me. It gets people into the freenet-speech and 
> at 
> the same time tells them why we use it (what's the difference between a 
> freesite and a normal website). 

Currently it is:

Freenet is free software which lets you anonymously share files, browse and 
publish "freesites" (web sites accessible only through Freenet) and chat on 
forums, without fear of censorship. Users are anonymous, and Freenet is 
entirely decentralised. Without anonymity there can never be true freedom of 
speech, and without decentralisation the network would be vulnerable to attack.
-- next part --
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: signature.asc
Type: application/pgp-signature
Size: 835 bytes
Desc: This is a digitally signed message part.
URL: 
<https://emu.freenetproject.org/pipermail/devl/attachments/20090617/8bbdbe45/attachment.pgp>

[freenet-dev] need graphic design help

[Caco Patane]

> Hmmm... do we care? How many people use IE6 at the moment? And what exactly 
> happens on IE6 with 1-bit-transparent PNGs?

At least here (latin america) there are tons of IE6 users: because
hardware is expensive nobody installs vista, nobody buys original
windows copies and don't get the updates. In webdevelopment usually is
a requirement to support IE6 -again, in Latinamerica-.

IE6 shows the transparent pixels as grey. There are some nasty hacks
that can be done with JS and can be included using HTML conditional
comments[1].

Saludos,
Caco_Patane 

[1] http://www.quirksmode.org/css/condcom.html

[freenet-dev] usability testing

[Zero3]

Matthew Toseland skrev:
> On Tuesday 16 June 2009 21:53:09 Zero3 wrote:
>> Matthew Toseland skrev:
>>> On Sunday 14 June 2009 14:24:39 Zero3 wrote:
 a) On the front page of the website: A "What is Freenet?" teaser linking 
 to the "What is Freenet?" page would be cool. Confusedly started to read 
 the news item instead. (She should have spotted the "News" headline, but 
 I agree on the teaser)
>>> I think originally the reason for putting news on the main page was that a 
>>> lot of people check back on the website repeatedly, looking for new stuff 
>>> (i.e. news) ?:
>>>
>>> I agree we should have some basic explanation and link on the home page 
>>> though ... I am not quite sure whether just copying the first para from 
>>> "What is Freenet" as Dieppe has done is sufficient?
>>>
>>> "Freenet is free software which lets you publish and obtain information on 
>>> the Internet without fear of censorship. To achieve this freedom, the 
>>> network is entirely decentralized and publishers and consumers of 
>>> information are anonymous. Without anonymity there can never be true 
>>> freedom of speech, and without decentralization the network will be 
>>> vulnerable to attack."
>>>
>>> Followed by a link to learn more, a download link and news.
>>>
>>> Is this sufficiently comprehensible to newbies? I guess so, but it doesn't 
>>> really answer the question!
>> I think it's quite good actually! I think "Without anonymity there can 
>> never be true freedom of speech") is a bit subjective though.
> 
> Alternatives? Clearly anonymity is a direct consequence of the overriding 
> goal of thwarting censorship.

Ala "The anonymity of Freenet makes true freedom of speech possible"

 b) FUD alert on the "What is Freenet?" page:

 "Freenet does not let the user control what is stored in the data store. 
 [...] Files in the data store are encrypted to reduce the likelihood of 
 prosecution by persons wishing to censor Freenet content."

 (Agreed. We are scaring some people away before they even reach the 
 download page. I don't think we should hide the facts, but rather give a 
 reasoned explanation for the ways Freenet do things.)
>>> I guess there is a language issue here yeah...
>>>
>>> How about this? (deployed):
>>>
>>> 'Users contribute to the network by giving bandwidth and a portion of their 
>>> hard drive (called the "data store") for storing files. Files are 
>>> automatically kept or deleted depending on how popular they are, with the 
>>> least popular being discarded to make way for newer or more popular 
>>> content. Files are encrypted, so generally the user cannot easily discover 
>>> what is in his datastore, and hopefully can't be held accountable for it.'
>> Much better, yeah.
>>
 c) On the "Philosophy" page: More focus on what Freenet actually *can 
 do* for citizens living under censorship and the like. 
>>> Isn't that what "What is Freenet?" is about?
>> Well, yeah, except it doesn't really say anything about it on that page 
>> either.
> 
> It does now IMHO. Have you read the current version?

Yeah, it does mention what you can do with Freenet in general. Dunno.

 e) On the "Download page": No idea what a "node reference" is. (Could be 
 rephrased or explained better)
>>> That's why it's in quotes, and the "Add a friend" page does explain it. Do 
>>> you have any suggestion as to how to improve the wording?
>> Perhaps add a paranthesis explaining the term?
> 
> Is it a problem? If he clicks the link to Add a Friend it will explain it to 
> him?

Given that he has a node running (it links to localhost fproxy). It is 
not a problem, just a minor usability quirk IMHO.

 Very annoying to be asked to install a second  
 browser. In this case, a third (using FF with IE as backup. And user is 
 asked not to use IE). More FUD about history leaks. 
>>> FUD stands for Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt. Unfortunately, the warnings 
>>> about browser history stealing are factually true. Perhaps there is an 
>>> argument for not naming such attacks if this intimidates people? Is the 
>>> problem with IE important? There are possibilities for working around it, 
>>> there has never been much enthusiasm for implementing them (even from ian 
>>> who tends to be usability oriented).
>> Exactly. The user is fears the consequences of history leaks and is 
>> uncertain what he ought to do, and thereby doubts his security and 
>> privacy using Freenet.
> 
> He knows what he needs to do - use a separate browser. Don't we make that 
> clear? It may be annoying but it is clear, no?

It is indeed very clear, but as you say, also damn annoying. If 
possible, I think we should avoid annoying the user.

>> IMHO we are exaggerating with this warning page.
>>
>> Dunno about IE? Is version 7/8 "secure enough"?
> 
> The problem with IE is a deliberate policy decision to ignore MIME types on 
> most files. There is a registry key to fix it. I think it 

[freenet-dev] need graphic design help

[Caco Patane]

I like it "boxed" (same width in Freenet and The Free Network), find
it attached.

Saludos,
Caco_Patane 

On Wed, Jun 17, 2009 at 10:18 AM, Cl?ment wrote:
> On Wednesday 17 June 2009 14:54:21 Matthew Toseland wrote:
>> On Wednesday 17 June 2009 01:03:38 Cl?ment wrote:
>> > On Wednesday 17 June 2009 01:18:28 Ian Clarke wrote:
>> > > Ok, we need some help with the website, surely someone out there knows
>> > > their way around Gimp, or Adobe Illustrator or something, or has a
>> > > friend that does?
>> > >
>> > > Highest priorities:
>> > >
>> > > - Fix the logo on the website - it should be "Freenet", not "FreeNet"
>> >
>> > See attached (I sent the svg file, so everyone can edit it).
>>
>> Cool. We could actually do that in CSS, we should probably have hops as a
>> png rather than SVG but that's easy... Would you mind exporting the logo as
>> a transparent PNG of the correct dimensions, for the time being?
>>
> See attached.
>> > > - Create a decent "Get Freenet" button, something vaguely like what
>> > > they have on http://getfirefox.com/ or http://jquery.com/. ?Stuff like
>> > > "Version" should be overlayed in text, not drawn on the image, so that
>> > > it can be changed easily.
>> >
>> > I asked my girlfriend for that. It should be done by tomorrow. I can't
>> > have any guarantee for the result of course :)
>> >
>> :)
>
>
> ___
> Devl mailing list
> Devl at freenetproject.org
> http://emu.freenetproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/devl
>



-- 
And the void rumbles in
Like an underground train
Forever comes closer
The world is in pain
We all must be shown, we must realise
That everyone changes and everything dies

-BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-
Version: 3.12
GIT dpu s:-- a-- C++ UL+++ P-- L++ E--- W+++ N o-- K- w---
O M V- PS+++ PE-- Y+ PGP t+ 5-- X+ R+++ tv-- b++ DI-- D++
G++ e h+ r-- y**
--END GEEK CODE BLOCK--
-- next part --
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: freenet-logo.png
Type: image/png
Size: 4731 bytes
Desc: not available
URL: 
<https://emu.freenetproject.org/pipermail/devl/attachments/20090617/7ec3de5e/attachment.png>

[freenet-dev] need graphic design help

[Caco Patane]

> Cool. We could actually do that in CSS, we should probably have hops as a png 
> rather than SVG but that's easy... Would you mind exporting the logo as a 
> transparent PNG of the correct dimensions, for the time being?

Be aware of PNG because IE6 does not support well PNG transparency (is
IE6 anyway...).

[freenet-dev] Good screenshots needed

[Arne Babenhauserheide]

Am Mittwoch, 17. Juni 2009 08:06:30 schrieb Daniel Cheng:
> The bad thing is: our fproxy homepage don't have any picture.
>
> Those little ActiveLinks icons got disabled by default.

Try using Firefox - at least for me it shows the activelinks. 

Wishes, 
Arne

--- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- 
Unpolitisch sein
hei?t politisch sein, 
ohne es zu merken. 
- Arne (http://draketo.de)
--- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- 


-- next part --
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: signature.asc
Type: application/pgp-signature
Size: 198 bytes
Desc: This is a digitally signed message part.
URL: 
<https://emu.freenetproject.org/pipermail/devl/attachments/20090617/a5e15023/attachment.pgp>

[freenet-dev] About the website

[Arne Babenhauserheide]

Am Mittwoch, 17. Juni 2009 05:26:25 schrieb Luke771:
> Browse and publish 'freesites' (Freenet-hosted websites)

This one sounds very nice to me. It gets people into the freenet-speech and at 
the same time tells them why we use it (what's the difference between a 
freesite and a normal website). 

Best wishes, 
Arne

--- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- 
Unpolitisch sein
hei?t politisch sein, 
ohne es zu merken. 
- Arne (http://draketo.de)
--- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- 


-- next part --
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: signature.asc
Type: application/pgp-signature
Size: 198 bytes
Desc: This is a digitally signed message part.
URL: 
<https://emu.freenetproject.org/pipermail/devl/attachments/20090617/0478b276/attachment.pgp>

[freenet-dev] The new blue gradient website background

[Daniel Cheng]

Just a quick notes:

Blue Gradient background won't work, because:

 -- BLUE have low contrast with the black text

 -- our rabbit logo is blue, even lower contrast

 -- the website ian suggested ( getfirefox/ jquery)
and other well-design webpage does NOT
use gradient as _text_ background AT ALL..

[freenet-dev] About the website

[Luke771]

Evan Daniel wrote:
> On Tue, Jun 16, 2009 at 1:52 PM, Matthew
> Toseland wrote:
>   
>> On Tuesday 16 June 2009 03:18:47 Evan Daniel wrote:
>> 
>>> On Mon, Jun 15, 2009 at 7:14 PM, Matthew
>>> Toseland wrote:
>>>   
 I have done the first phase of deploying this, after discussions with Ian. 
 We use the new background and the new logo, but we waste a lot of space on 
 the top "line" with the banner, and we don't use the horizontal menu yet 
 as we need to implement the sub-menus. Also I have rewritten the What is 
 Freenet? page with some input from Ian.
 
>>> Looking at the new version, it feels like it's targetted to an
>>> academic who is interested in the theory of anonymous networks.  IMHO,
>>> 
>>>   
>> Okay. The homepage now says:
>> ' Freenet is free software which lets you anonymously share files, browse 
>> and publish web sites, and chat on forums, without fear 

> I think that's better.
>
> I might change "browse and publish web sites ("freesites")" to
> 
Browse and publish 'freesites' (Freenet-hosted websites)

[freenet-dev] About the website

[Luke771]

Matthew Toseland wrote:
> On Tuesday 16 June 2009 03:18:47 Evan Daniel wrote:
>   
>> On Mon, Jun 15, 2009 at 7:14 PM, Matthew
>> Toseland wrote:
>> 
>>> I have done the first phase of deploying this, after discussions with Ian. 
>>> We use the new background and the new logo, but we waste a lot of space on 
>>> the top "line" with the banner, and we don't use the horizontal menu yet as 
>>> we need to implement the sub-menus. Also I have rewritten the What is 
>>> Freenet? page with some input from Ian.
>>>   
>> Looking at the new version, it feels like it's targetted to an
>> 
>> 
>
> Okay. The homepage now says:
> 
"Freenet has been downloaded by over 2 million users "

Should be "has been downloaded over 2 million times".
After all, I downloaded it at least 15 or 20 times...

[freenet-dev] The new blue gradient website background

[Arne Babenhauserheide]

Am Mittwoch, 17. Juni 2009 02:06:06 schrieb Daniel Cheng:
> Blue Gradient background won't work, because:

But it looked very nice to me, and I could read the text quite well... 

--- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- 
   - singing a part of the history of free software -
  http://infinite-hands.draketo.de


-- next part --
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: signature.asc
Type: application/pgp-signature
Size: 198 bytes
Desc: This is a digitally signed message part.
URL: 
<https://emu.freenetproject.org/pipermail/devl/attachments/20090617/675faedf/attachment.pgp>

[freenet-dev] The new blue gradient website background

[Clément]

On Wednesday 17 June 2009 02:06:06 Daniel Cheng wrote:
> Just a quick notes:
>
> Blue Gradient background won't work, because:
>
>  -- BLUE have low contrast with the black text
>
I disagree here : black text on light blue have a good contrast.

>  -- our rabbit logo is blue, even lower contrast
>
Agreed.
>  -- the website ian suggested ( getfirefox/ jquery)
> and other well-design webpage does NOT
> use gradient as _text_ background AT ALL..
Agreed.

We should fine a better background (I showed it to my girlfriend who said it 
looks 80s...). Globally, we could use this to find good colours : 
http://colorschemedesigner.com/

We already have one colour fixed (rabbit blue (0077bf)). What looks good with 
that is orange, but a orange background looks ugly. We could have a black 
background, but white on black is difficult to read.
> ___
> Devl mailing list
> Devl at freenetproject.org
> http://emu.freenetproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/devl

[freenet-dev] need graphic design help

[Gerard Krol]

Cl?ment wrote:
> On Wednesday 17 June 2009 01:18:28 Ian Clarke wrote:
>   
>> Ok, we need some help with the website, surely someone out there knows
>> their way around Gimp, or Adobe Illustrator or something, or has a
>> friend that does?
>>
>> Highest priorities:
>>
>> - Fix the logo on the website - it should be "Freenet", not "FreeNet"
>>
>> 
> See attached (I sent the svg file, so everyone can edit it).
>   
I made the text bold and move the rabbit behind it. It now looks vaguely 
familiar.
I don't hope I copied some other well known logo.

Let me know what you think!

- Gerard
-- next part --
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: freenet_logo.svg
Type: image/svg+xml
Size: 7191 bytes
Desc: not available
URL: 
<https://emu.freenetproject.org/pipermail/devl/attachments/20090617/0a39a76b/attachment.svg>

[freenet-dev] need graphic design help

[Clément]

On Wednesday 17 June 2009 01:18:28 Ian Clarke wrote:
> Ok, we need some help with the website, surely someone out there knows
> their way around Gimp, or Adobe Illustrator or something, or has a
> friend that does?
>
> Highest priorities:
>
> - Fix the logo on the website - it should be "Freenet", not "FreeNet"
>
See attached (I sent the svg file, so everyone can edit it).
> - Create a decent "Get Freenet" button, something vaguely like what
> they have on http://getfirefox.com/ or http://jquery.com/.  Stuff like
> "Version" should be overlayed in text, not drawn on the image, so that
> it can be changed easily.
>
I asked my girlfriend for that. It should be done by tomorrow. I can't have 
any guarantee for the result of course :)
> Any takers?
>
> Ian.

-- next part --
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: banner.svg
Type: image/svg+xml
Size: 6062 bytes
Desc: not available
URL: 
<https://emu.freenetproject.org/pipermail/devl/attachments/20090617/4b5e6e6b/attachment.svg>

[freenet-dev] website feedback

[Clément]

On Wednesday 17 June 2009 00:32:05 Matthew Toseland wrote:
> On Tuesday 16 June 2009 22:38:26 Ian Clarke wrote:
> > Some notes on the website from a friend of mine who does usability work:
> >
> > i'd remove the cup image from the store because it becomes the most
> > prominent element on the page next to the logo itself.
>
> Agreed, current plan is to make the menu horizontal, in which case there
> would be nowhere to put it and it would just become a menu item (as
> text)... imho the current design with the logo and the vertical menu wastes
> a lot of space.
>
> > I'd make the what is freenet bolder and at the top.
> > maybe even pull it out as a quote
> > FREENET -- share, publish and browse files anonymously
>
> Maybe lose the "files" ? "Freenet: Share, chat and browse anonymously" ?
>
> Would replace the current "What is Freenet?", be the top thing below the
> title / menu bar..
>
> To avoid confusion: "Share, chat and browse anonymously on the Free
> Network" ??
>
> That's what I've put up at the moment, and made it a  for more
> emphasis.
>
> > that's all I need to know to know if I am on the right page or not.
> > then you can have the expanded "what is freenet" section.
> > i think the quote is great but needs to go on an about page or something
> > because it's the reason "behind" the software not the software itself.
>
> Done.
>
> > the other thing i'd do is make a very prominent download button with a
> > version or something.
> > let me find a good example of what i mean
> > http://jquery.com/
> > it's easy to find the download and i know without downloading if I am
> > already current
>
> Okay, I've put up the button the students made, but we really need a better
> one, preferably with the version number and in an easy to edit form so we
> can update the version as needed (give us the original gimp files). Anyone
> able to improve on the current button? The drop-shadow is excessive, Ian
> would prefer something more firefoxy.
>
I asked my girlfriend to do it. She's playing with gimp since about 2 months, 
and she made some cute things. Dunno if it will fit our needs, but worth the 
try. Btw, we didn't ship the button in the version we gave to our prof, I just 
made it with inkscape in 10 minutes, and its only purpose was to present where 
the button should be (a link looked quite bad...). 
> Or should we have the version separately, as on his page below?
>
> > the last thing i'd mention is that you should fix the maximum width of
> > the text on the page. when you expand it too far then it becomes
> > unreadable
>
> Not sure I understand this one. It seems to scale fine on Firefox for me.
>
It scales fine, but we should have a max size : when a paragraph is too large, 
it doesn't help the readability (?). Well, that's how I understand it.
> > i still very much like your logo, i wish that it played a more
> > prominent roll somehow.
>
> Thanks Clement/Dieppe and the students for that one. IMHO there should be
> something next to it, the obvious thing is a horizontal menu.
>
> > the site does look more "clean" than it did which is great i just
> > think that at this point you need to start adding content back in and
> > starting to organize whats most important to the user.
>
> IMHO we haven't lost any content.
>
> > take this for example
> > http://skitch.com/heavysixer/bwcxd/firefox
> > this is for the bank ally i think they have a similar structure to
> > freenet in terms of getting people to understand the product and move
> > to the next step.
> > i've overlaid what i'd do if I were designing the site for you on top
> > of what they have now.
> > it seems more expressive and clear to me but not sure if that's what you
> > think ignore my horrible grammar too
> > it's a sketch!
>
> Interesting...
>
> You would keep the vertical menu - doesn't a horizontal one save space and
> fit better with the logo positioning?
>
> Then replace the News section with screenshots ... anyone have any opinions
> about this? Clearly we would need to mention the version on or near the Get
> Freenet button ... Screenshots might help in terms of selling Freenet,
> although it has to look good in that case ... and we'd need the News page
> to maybe be more prominent, ideally with an RSS feed...

I still think we should have news on the homepage : when I go on a site and I 
don't see any news, it give me the feelings that the project is almost dead.

Maybe we could do like many sites : just put the title of the news linking to 
the body of the news, maybe in a list in the right ?

[freenet-dev] Suggestion: Link to bugs needing feedback on the website

[Zero3]

In the bugtracker we have a long list of bugs that require 
user/community feedback. Right now, nobody seems to notice that.

I suggest we somehow promote this need for feedback to the website.

Possible solution: A "How can I help?" page with a link to:

https://bugs.freenetproject.org/search.php?project_id=1_id=20_issues=on=last_updated=DESC_changed=48_status_id=-2

... as well as a few words on how you can give feedback (either reply on 
bugtracker, send a mail to the devl list or catch someone in irc).

- Zero3

[freenet-dev] Beta of Windows tray icon + update.cmd updating

[Matthew Toseland]

On Wednesday 17 June 2009 00:48:44 Juiceman wrote:
> On Tue, Jun 16, 2009 at 7:16 PM, Matthew
> Toseland wrote:
> > On Tuesday 16 June 2009 23:16:58 Zero3 wrote:
> >> I've successfully (I think?) branched the master branch of
> >> wininstaller-staging at github to a new beta branch. This branch now
> >> contains the upcoming Windows tray icon.
> >>
> >> Please feel free to test. Even small fixes like spelling and grammar is
> >> more than welcome (because mine suck ;)).
> >>
> >> Source: http://github.com/freenet/wininstaller-staging/tree/beta
> >> Binary: http://privat.zero3.dk/FreenetInstaller_Beta.exe (old jars,
> >> seednodes, translations and so on. Not meant for anything but testing)
> >
> > Cool!
> >>
> >> The update.cmd script will soon need to support the updating of various
> >> helper executables, most importantly freenetlauncher.exe, but if
> >> possible, all of them.
> >
> > Ok.
> >>
> >> (Are these on the website somewhere yet Matthew? Along with a plan of
> >> how they are kept up-to-date...)
> >>
> >> If update.cmd tries to update bin\freenettray.exe, it should first do
> >> something like:
> >>
> >> taskkill /IM freenettray.exe
> >> if not errorlevel 1 
> >>
> >> (... as we can't update running Windows executables)
> >
> > https://checksums.freenetproject.org/cc/[filename]
> > for filename in:
> > wrapper-windows-x86-32.exe wrapper-windows-x86-32.dll start.exe stop.exe 
> > freenetlauncher.exe
> 
> It would be great if we could see the directory listing when we access
> https://checksums.freenetproject.org/cc/ is this possible?
> 
> How do you suggest we check for newer versions of the files?
> Downloading them all and then comparing is a waste of bandwidth... I
> could compare the .sha1 of the files if those exist.  That would be
> minuscule bandwidth.
> 
> I propose to start checking freenet-ext.jar this way, saving almost 4mb per 
> run.

Yes, that is exactly how it is supposed to work. Furthermore, checking the 
.sha1 over HTTPS is a good thing in terms of security. So please go for it!
> 
> > Tag the wininstaller, and tell me, when you want them updating.
-- next part --
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: signature.asc
Type: application/pgp-signature
Size: 835 bytes
Desc: This is a digitally signed message part.
URL: 
<https://emu.freenetproject.org/pipermail/devl/attachments/20090617/056ad779/attachment.pgp>

[freenet-dev] usability testing

[Matthew Toseland]

. Make it a big, fat infobox instad.
> > 
> > What big red warning? "The node is trying to connect to the network, it 
> > will be slow for a while." ??? How is this FUD? Users don't read, and have 
> > unrealistic expectations, so it is IMHO essential to tell them, while we 
> > have less than 10 peers, that Freenet may be slow for a while. Several 
> > times when I have done test installs this hasn't even shown up since it has 
> > reached 10 peers before showing the browse page!
> 
> There will probably always be people around who refuse to read. I 
> personally don't think we should sacifice usability for smart users to 
> satisfy the stupid ones :).

I don't see why it is a usability issue, we are simply telling the user the 
facts.
> 
> It's not so much the size that bugged the reviewer, but rather the fact 
> that it was presented as a *red warning* and not as an white infobox or 
> similar.

Messages do not belong in infoboxes, they belong in messages. If you want the 
detail you click on it and it will show you the detail in an infobox. So really 
what he is complaining about is the little red X icon next to it. The purpose 
of which is to draw the user's attention. This is only shown if bootstrapping 
is particularly slow as I mentioned above...

I guess we could change it to something more innocuous, but people won't read 
it in that case ... and then they will complain Freenet is slow and tell all 
their friends Freenet is slow. Of course they'll probably do that anyway ... 
Also I was hoping we could eventually eliminate ALL of the messages except for 
ERROR and CRITICAL_ERROR, and just have a link to the messages page for 
anything below that, and have this shown on every generated page rather than 
the summaries we have now. Or is that a bad idea?
-- next part --
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: signature.asc
Type: application/pgp-signature
Size: 835 bytes
Desc: This is a digitally signed message part.
URL: 
<https://emu.freenetproject.org/pipermail/devl/attachments/20090617/0cea53f9/attachment.pgp>

[freenet-dev] Good screenshots needed

[Matthew Toseland]

We need some (3?) screenshots. These must be legal, look reasonably good both 
in full and when thumbnailed to a reasonable size so we can put them on the 
homepage.

Alternatively, please explain why it would be bad to replace the news on the 
homepage with a few screenshots.
-- next part --
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: signature.asc
Type: application/pgp-signature
Size: 835 bytes
Desc: This is a digitally signed message part.
URL: 
<https://emu.freenetproject.org/pipermail/devl/attachments/20090617/06d738cc/attachment.pgp>

[freenet-dev] About the website

[Matthew Toseland]

On Monday 01 June 2009 01:24:24 Cl?ment wrote:
> Hello all,
> 
> about three weeks ago I had a HCI webproject to do. 
> The subject was : improve an existant website (well, I'm not 100% sure that 
> it 
> was the subject, but that what we've done)
> 
> I convinced the three other people who worked with me to work on the freenet 
> website. It was a small project though (3 hours with a teacher in the room, + 
> 3 hours max of personal time), so we didn't go far.
> 
> But maybe some of what we've done could be usefull for the project.
> 
> Here is the copy/paste of what we've done :
> 
> --
> Objective of the new website: 
> - To improve the existing navigation controls of freenetproject.org
> - To improve it's structural presentation of information on home page
> 
> 
> Aim of the web-site:
> - to present the software product and provide support
> - documentation and tools to users and developers to allow them to use and 
> contribute to the software.
> 
> Problems:
> The problems of current website http://freenetproject.org :
> - irrelevant information for homepage: mainly financial status, we don't know 
> what freenet is
> - too many items in left navigation menu and not really well structured
> - documentation section where subsections do not have direct hyperlinks - its 
> confusing
> 
> Solutions we proposed:
> - simpler horizontal navigation bar with restructured tree
> - new menu tree proposition:
> 
> Home -- what is freenet a bit modified page
> 
> About freenet:
> what is freenet
> philosophy
> contributors
> 
> Downloads:
> freenet
> tools
> 
> Contribute:
> papers -- research and stuff
> developer
> 
> Donations
> donate
> sponsors
> 
> Support & feedback
> help --documentation and stuff
> faq --move out from help section
> mailing lists
> suggestions
> 
> - restructuralization of documentation page
> - homepage holds only basic information presenting projects aim and latest 
> news
> --
> 
> Of course, it's a very early draft, so it needs to be discussed.
> 
> You'll find attached the files we produced. Please keep in mind it that the 
> aim 
> of the HCI project wasn't to have a pretty site, but a functionnal one (so, 
> it's not ugly, but it's not pretty either).
> 
> Some files are missing, we mainly focused on the navigation and the structure 
> of the site. It's not very important though, since the contents are exactly 
> the same that already are on the current site.
> 
> Oh, and I almost forgot : we should keep the financial status on the 
> homepage, 
> between the download link and the news (we got rid of it because we found on 
> the moment it wasn't relevant, but in fact, it's interesting to know about 
> the 
> financial health of a project).
> 
> Last thing : I still don't have my grade for this project, so I don't know if 
> it's good job or not ;)
> 
Is there any chance of reconstructing the logo without the CamelCase? It's 
always been Freenet not FreeNet.
-- next part --
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: signature.asc
Type: application/pgp-signature
Size: 835 bytes
Desc: This is a digitally signed message part.
URL: 
<https://emu.freenetproject.org/pipermail/devl/attachments/20090617/cf7e7cf1/attachment.pgp>

[freenet-dev] Beta of Windows tray icon + update.cmd updating

[Zero3]

I've successfully (I think?) branched the master branch of 
wininstaller-staging at github to a new beta branch. This branch now 
contains the upcoming Windows tray icon.

Please feel free to test. Even small fixes like spelling and grammar is 
more than welcome (because mine suck ;)).

Source: http://github.com/freenet/wininstaller-staging/tree/beta
Binary: http://privat.zero3.dk/FreenetInstaller_Beta.exe (old jars, 
seednodes, translations and so on. Not meant for anything but testing)

The update.cmd script will soon need to support the updating of various 
helper executables, most importantly freenetlauncher.exe, but if 
possible, all of them.

(Are these on the website somewhere yet Matthew? Along with a plan of 
how they are kept up-to-date...)

If update.cmd tries to update bin\freenettray.exe, it should first do 
something like:

taskkill /IM freenettray.exe
if not errorlevel 1 

(... as we can't update running Windows executables)

- Zero3

[freenet-dev] Beta of Windows tray icon + update.cmd updating

[Matthew Toseland]

On Tuesday 16 June 2009 23:16:58 Zero3 wrote:
> I've successfully (I think?) branched the master branch of 
> wininstaller-staging at github to a new beta branch. This branch now 
> contains the upcoming Windows tray icon.
> 
> Please feel free to test. Even small fixes like spelling and grammar is 
> more than welcome (because mine suck ;)).
> 
> Source: http://github.com/freenet/wininstaller-staging/tree/beta
> Binary: http://privat.zero3.dk/FreenetInstaller_Beta.exe (old jars, 
> seednodes, translations and so on. Not meant for anything but testing)

Cool!
> 
> The update.cmd script will soon need to support the updating of various 
> helper executables, most importantly freenetlauncher.exe, but if 
> possible, all of them.

Ok.
> 
> (Are these on the website somewhere yet Matthew? Along with a plan of 
> how they are kept up-to-date...)
> 
> If update.cmd tries to update bin\freenettray.exe, it should first do 
> something like:
> 
> taskkill /IM freenettray.exe
> if not errorlevel 1 
> 
> (... as we can't update running Windows executables)

https://checksums.freenetproject.org/cc/[filename]
for filename in:
wrapper-windows-x86-32.exe wrapper-windows-x86-32.dll start.exe stop.exe 
freenetlauncher.exe 

Tag the wininstaller, and tell me, when you want them updating.
-- next part --
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: signature.asc
Type: application/pgp-signature
Size: 835 bytes
Desc: This is a digitally signed message part.
URL: 
<https://emu.freenetproject.org/pipermail/devl/attachments/20090617/6240db1b/attachment.pgp>

[freenet-dev] website feedback

[Matthew Toseland]

On Tuesday 16 June 2009 22:38:26 Ian Clarke wrote:
> Some notes on the website from a friend of mine who does usability work:
> 
> i'd remove the cup image from the store because it becomes the most
> prominent element on the page next to the logo itself.

Agreed, current plan is to make the menu horizontal, in which case there would 
be nowhere to put it and it would just become a menu item (as text)... imho the 
current design with the logo and the vertical menu wastes a lot of space.

> I'd make the what is freenet bolder and at the top.
> maybe even pull it out as a quote
> FREENET -- share, publish and browse files anonymously

Maybe lose the "files" ? "Freenet: Share, chat and browse anonymously" ?

Would replace the current "What is Freenet?", be the top thing below the title 
/ menu bar..

To avoid confusion: "Share, chat and browse anonymously on the Free Network" ??

That's what I've put up at the moment, and made it a  for more emphasis.

> that's all I need to know to know if I am on the right page or not.
> then you can have the expanded "what is freenet" section.
> i think the quote is great but needs to go on an about page or something
> because it's the reason "behind" the software not the software itself.

Done.
> 
> the other thing i'd do is make a very prominent download button with a
> version or something.
> let me find a good example of what i mean
> http://jquery.com/
> it's easy to find the download and i know without downloading if I am
> already current

Okay, I've put up the button the students made, but we really need a better 
one, preferably with the version number and in an easy to edit form so we can 
update the version as needed (give us the original gimp files). Anyone able to 
improve on the current button? The drop-shadow is excessive, Ian would prefer 
something more firefoxy.

Or should we have the version separately, as on his page below?
> 
> the last thing i'd mention is that you should fix the maximum width of
> the text on the page. when you expand it too far then it becomes
> unreadable

Not sure I understand this one. It seems to scale fine on Firefox for me.
> 
> i still very much like your logo, i wish that it played a more
> prominent roll somehow.

Thanks Clement/Dieppe and the students for that one. IMHO there should be 
something next to it, the obvious thing is a horizontal menu.
> 
> the site does look more "clean" than it did which is great i just
> think that at this point you need to start adding content back in and
> starting to organize whats most important to the user.

IMHO we haven't lost any content.
> 
> take this for example
> http://skitch.com/heavysixer/bwcxd/firefox
> this is for the bank ally i think they have a similar structure to
> freenet in terms of getting people to understand the product and move
> to the next step.
> i've overlaid what i'd do if I were designing the site for you on top
> of what they have now.
> it seems more expressive and clear to me but not sure if that's what you think
> ignore my horrible grammar too
> it's a sketch!

Interesting...

You would keep the vertical menu - doesn't a horizontal one save space and fit 
better with the logo positioning?

Then replace the News section with screenshots ... anyone have any opinions 
about this? Clearly we would need to mention the version on or near the Get 
Freenet button ... Screenshots might help in terms of selling Freenet, although 
it has to look good in that case ... and we'd need the News page to maybe be 
more prominent, ideally with an RSS feed...
-- next part --
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: signature.asc
Type: application/pgp-signature
Size: 835 bytes
Desc: This is a digitally signed message part.
URL: 

[freenet-dev] Non-english windows users: does it pick up your language or do you need to set it?

[Zero3]

bo-le skrev:
> Am Dienstag, 16. Juni 2009 21:40:53 schrieb Zero3:
>> Matthew Toseland skrev:
>>> On Sunday 14 June 2009 13:11:40 Zero3 wrote:
 Matthew Toseland skrev:
 This value is also passed on to the node via "node.l10n=Deutsch"
 (example for German) in freenet.ini. (I don't think that specifying a
 language by the localized name is ideal, but that seems to be how the
 node wants it. I *did* ask if this could be changed to standardized
 language IDs a while ago...)
>>> IIRC both work.
>> Which kind of IDs does it accept? I'd really like to switch over to that
>> instead.
> freenet.l10n.L10n.java shows you the strings:
>   /** @see "http://www.omniglot.com/language/names.htm; */
>   public enum LANGUAGE {
>   ENGLISH("en", "English", "eng"),
>   SPANISH("es", "Espa?ol", "spa"),
>   DANISH("da", "Dansk", "dan"),
>   GERMAN("de", "Deutsch", "deu"),
>   FINNISH("fi", "Suomi", "fin"),
>   FRENCH("fr", "Fran?ais", "fra"),
>   ITALIAN("it", "Italiano", "ita"),
>   NORWEGIAN("no", "Norsk", "nor"),
>   POLISH("pl", "Polski", "pol"),
>   SWEDISH("se", "Svenska", "svk"),
>   CHINESE("zh-cn", "??(??)", "chn"),
>   CHINESE_TAIWAN("zh-tw", "??(??)", "zh-tw"),
>   UNLISTED("unlisted", "unlisted", "unlisted");
> 
> any string listed here can be used.

Cool. But which standards do these follow? ,  
and  (though zh-tw seems wrong then)?

- Zero3

Re: [freenet-dev] Good screenshots needed

[Daniel Cheng]

On Wed, Jun 17, 2009 at 10:16 AM, Ian Clarkei...@locut.us wrote:
 I've been doing quite a bit of work in my day job with people who have
 done a vast amount of testing of the effectiveness of different
 website designs.

 If I were to condense what I've learned into a single caveman
 sentence, it would be:

  Big dense blocks of text: BAD, Pictures: GOOD

The bad thing is: our fproxy homepage don't have any picture.

Those little ActiveLinks icons got disabled by default.


 Screenshots are important, when I want to get a sense of a piece of
 software one of the first things I look for is a screenshot.

 Ian.

 --
 Ian Clarke
 CEO, Uprizer Labs
 Email: i...@uprizer.com
 Ph: +1 512 422 3588
 Fax: +1 512 276 6674
 ___
 Devl mailing list
 Devl@freenetproject.org
 http://emu.freenetproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/devl

___
Devl mailing list
Devl@freenetproject.org
http://emu.freenetproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/devl

Re: [freenet-dev] About the website

[Arne Babenhauserheide]

Am Mittwoch, 17. Juni 2009 05:26:25 schrieb Luke771:
 Browse and publish 'freesites' (Freenet-hosted websites)

This one sounds very nice to me. It gets people into the freenet-speech and at 
the same time tells them why we use it (what's the difference between a 
freesite and a normal website). 

Best wishes, 
Arne

--- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- 
Unpolitisch sein
heißt politisch sein, 
ohne es zu merken. 
- Arne (http://draketo.de)
--- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- 




signature.asc
Description: This is a digitally signed message part.
___
Devl mailing list
Devl@freenetproject.org
http://emu.freenetproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/devl

Re: [freenet-dev] Good screenshots needed

[Arne Babenhauserheide]

Am Mittwoch, 17. Juni 2009 08:06:30 schrieb Daniel Cheng:
 The bad thing is: our fproxy homepage don't have any picture.

 Those little ActiveLinks icons got disabled by default.

Try using Firefox - at least for me it shows the activelinks. 

Wishes, 
Arne

--- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- 
Unpolitisch sein
heißt politisch sein, 
ohne es zu merken. 
- Arne (http://draketo.de)
--- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- 




signature.asc
Description: This is a digitally signed message part.
___
Devl mailing list
Devl@freenetproject.org
http://emu.freenetproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/devl

Re: [freenet-dev] usability testing

[Zero3]

Matthew Toseland skrev:
 On Tuesday 16 June 2009 21:53:09 Zero3 wrote:
 Matthew Toseland skrev:
 On Sunday 14 June 2009 14:24:39 Zero3 wrote:
 a) On the front page of the website: A What is Freenet? teaser linking 
 to the What is Freenet? page would be cool. Confusedly started to read 
 the news item instead. (She should have spotted the News headline, but 
 I agree on the teaser)
 I think originally the reason for putting news on the main page was that a 
 lot of people check back on the website repeatedly, looking for new stuff 
 (i.e. news) ?:

 I agree we should have some basic explanation and link on the home page 
 though ... I am not quite sure whether just copying the first para from 
 What is Freenet as Dieppe has done is sufficient?

 Freenet is free software which lets you publish and obtain information on 
 the Internet without fear of censorship. To achieve this freedom, the 
 network is entirely decentralized and publishers and consumers of 
 information are anonymous. Without anonymity there can never be true 
 freedom of speech, and without decentralization the network will be 
 vulnerable to attack.

 Followed by a link to learn more, a download link and news.

 Is this sufficiently comprehensible to newbies? I guess so, but it doesn't 
 really answer the question!
 I think it's quite good actually! I think Without anonymity there can 
 never be true freedom of speech) is a bit subjective though.
 
 Alternatives? Clearly anonymity is a direct consequence of the overriding 
 goal of thwarting censorship.

Ala The anonymity of Freenet makes true freedom of speech possible

 b) FUD alert on the What is Freenet? page:

 Freenet does not let the user control what is stored in the data store. 
 [...] Files in the data store are encrypted to reduce the likelihood of 
 prosecution by persons wishing to censor Freenet content.

 (Agreed. We are scaring some people away before they even reach the 
 download page. I don't think we should hide the facts, but rather give a 
 reasoned explanation for the ways Freenet do things.)
 I guess there is a language issue here yeah...

 How about this? (deployed):

 'Users contribute to the network by giving bandwidth and a portion of their 
 hard drive (called the data store) for storing files. Files are 
 automatically kept or deleted depending on how popular they are, with the 
 least popular being discarded to make way for newer or more popular 
 content. Files are encrypted, so generally the user cannot easily discover 
 what is in his datastore, and hopefully can't be held accountable for it.'
 Much better, yeah.

 c) On the Philosophy page: More focus on what Freenet actually *can 
 do* for citizens living under censorship and the like. 
 Isn't that what What is Freenet? is about?
 Well, yeah, except it doesn't really say anything about it on that page 
 either.
 
 It does now IMHO. Have you read the current version?

Yeah, it does mention what you can do with Freenet in general. Dunno.

 e) On the Download page: No idea what a node reference is. (Could be 
 rephrased or explained better)
 That's why it's in quotes, and the Add a friend page does explain it. Do 
 you have any suggestion as to how to improve the wording?
 Perhaps add a paranthesis explaining the term?
 
 Is it a problem? If he clicks the link to Add a Friend it will explain it to 
 him?

Given that he has a node running (it links to localhost fproxy). It is 
not a problem, just a minor usability quirk IMHO.

 Very annoying to be asked to install a second  
 browser. In this case, a third (using FF with IE as backup. And user is 
 asked not to use IE). More FUD about history leaks. 
 FUD stands for Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt. Unfortunately, the warnings 
 about browser history stealing are factually true. Perhaps there is an 
 argument for not naming such attacks if this intimidates people? Is the 
 problem with IE important? There are possibilities for working around it, 
 there has never been much enthusiasm for implementing them (even from ian 
 who tends to be usability oriented).
 Exactly. The user is fears the consequences of history leaks and is 
 uncertain what he ought to do, and thereby doubts his security and 
 privacy using Freenet.
 
 He knows what he needs to do - use a separate browser. Don't we make that 
 clear? It may be annoying but it is clear, no?

It is indeed very clear, but as you say, also damn annoying. If 
possible, I think we should avoid annoying the user.

 IMHO we are exaggerating with this warning page.

 Dunno about IE? Is version 7/8 secure enough?
 
 The problem with IE is a deliberate policy decision to ignore MIME types on 
 most files. There is a registry key to fix it. I think it has improved 
 slightly in recent times but avoiding it is not easy.

We ought to re-test this under version 7/8?

 Chrome actually has an online installer - but only supports XP SP2+ and 
 Vista. We could also simply link to the project page of FF when they 
 implement a 

Re: [freenet-dev] About the website

[Matthew Toseland]

On Wednesday 17 June 2009 07:40:18 Arne Babenhauserheide wrote:
 Am Mittwoch, 17. Juni 2009 05:26:25 schrieb Luke771:
  Browse and publish 'freesites' (Freenet-hosted websites)
 
 This one sounds very nice to me. It gets people into the freenet-speech and 
 at 
 the same time tells them why we use it (what's the difference between a 
 freesite and a normal website). 

Currently it is:

Freenet is free software which lets you anonymously share files, browse and 
publish freesites (web sites accessible only through Freenet) and chat on 
forums, without fear of censorship. Users are anonymous, and Freenet is 
entirely decentralised. Without anonymity there can never be true freedom of 
speech, and without decentralisation the network would be vulnerable to attack.


signature.asc
Description: This is a digitally signed message part.
___
Devl mailing list
Devl@freenetproject.org
http://emu.freenetproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/devl

[freenet-dev] First status report of my GSoC project

[sashee]

Hello everybody!

This is time for my first status report, because mid-term evals are approaching.

Some introduction, what I'm doing exactly. My project is to introduce
web pushing to the web interface. That actually means, that the data
displayed are refreshed automatically, without the need to refresh the
whole page. It is accomplished with ajax requests and javascript at
the client side, and some toadlets at the serverside. Toad had a
concern about the number of opened connections, so a connection
sharing mechanism is also a requirement. This connection sharing
ensures that only 1 permanent connection is used per browser, no
matter how many tabs are open. Another requirement is that the web
interface must be usable when javascript is disabled(but pushing wont
work that way)

About my current status:I've created the basic infrastructure both
server and client side, so pushing works and connection sharing also.
Currently only the progress bar on the progress page is pushed, but it
nicely visualize the feature. The client side is written in java, and
transformed to javascript with the help of the GWT compiler.

How to check the current status:
Pull and checkout to the web-pushing branch, then build the project.
Please don't distclean, because it will delete the generated
javascript, and you won't be able to generate it yourself atm. Then
start Freenet, and open a browser with it. You have to enable
javascript both on your browser and on Freenet. Now you should browse
Freenet, and see the progress bar is updating, and when the loading is
ready, you get the page you just fetched. I've put some tester
elements at the status page, they are increased by 1 every second.
They help to see bugs, as they use pushing heavily.

I've tested it at Firefox both windows and linux, and IE7. They worked
well, although testing on other systems would be helpful.

Please don't use pushing, just for testing and reviewing. It has some
major bug that needs to be addressed. But feedback is always
appreciated.

What's next?
As I've 3 weeks before mid term eval, I'll fix the known bugs and
optimize some processes, and it also needs be documented and
commented. The pushing can also be used for the images' loading, but
I'll write a separate email about that.

sashee
___
Devl mailing list
Devl@freenetproject.org
http://emu.freenetproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/devl

Re: [freenet-dev] usability testing

[Matthew Toseland]

On Wednesday 17 June 2009 09:54:18 Zero3 wrote:
 Matthew Toseland skrev:
  On Tuesday 16 June 2009 21:53:09 Zero3 wrote:
  Matthew Toseland skrev:
  On Sunday 14 June 2009 14:24:39 Zero3 wrote:
  a) On the front page of the website: A What is Freenet? teaser linking 
  to the What is Freenet? page would be cool. Confusedly started to read 
  the news item instead. (She should have spotted the News headline, but 
  I agree on the teaser)
  I think originally the reason for putting news on the main page was that 
  a lot of people check back on the website repeatedly, looking for new 
  stuff (i.e. news) ?:
 
  I agree we should have some basic explanation and link on the home page 
  though ... I am not quite sure whether just copying the first para from 
  What is Freenet as Dieppe has done is sufficient?
 
  Freenet is free software which lets you publish and obtain information 
  on the Internet without fear of censorship. To achieve this freedom, the 
  network is entirely decentralized and publishers and consumers of 
  information are anonymous. Without anonymity there can never be true 
  freedom of speech, and without decentralization the network will be 
  vulnerable to attack.
 
  Followed by a link to learn more, a download link and news.
 
  Is this sufficiently comprehensible to newbies? I guess so, but it 
  doesn't really answer the question!
  I think it's quite good actually! I think Without anonymity there can 
  never be true freedom of speech) is a bit subjective though.
  
  Alternatives? Clearly anonymity is a direct consequence of the overriding 
  goal of thwarting censorship.
 
 Ala The anonymity of Freenet makes true freedom of speech possible

Freenet is free software which lets you anonymously share files, browse and 
publish freesites (web sites accessible only through Freenet) and chat on 
forums, without fear of censorship. Freenet is decentralised to make it less 
vulnerable to attack.

Or even:

Freenet is free software which lets you anonymously share files, browse and 
publish freesites (web sites accessible only through Freenet) and chat on 
forums, without fear of censorship. Freenet is decentralised to make it less 
vulnerable to attack, and if used in darknet mode, where users only connect 
to their friends, is very difficult to detect.

???
 
  b) FUD alert on the What is Freenet? page:
 
  Freenet does not let the user control what is stored in the data store. 
  [...] Files in the data store are encrypted to reduce the likelihood of 
  prosecution by persons wishing to censor Freenet content.
 
  (Agreed. We are scaring some people away before they even reach the 
  download page. I don't think we should hide the facts, but rather give a 
  reasoned explanation for the ways Freenet do things.)
  I guess there is a language issue here yeah...
 
  How about this? (deployed):
 
  'Users contribute to the network by giving bandwidth and a portion of 
  their hard drive (called the data store) for storing files. Files are 
  automatically kept or deleted depending on how popular they are, with the 
  least popular being discarded to make way for newer or more popular 
  content. Files are encrypted, so generally the user cannot easily 
  discover what is in his datastore, and hopefully can't be held 
  accountable for it.'
  Much better, yeah.
 
  c) On the Philosophy page: More focus on what Freenet actually *can 
  do* for citizens living under censorship and the like. 
  Isn't that what What is Freenet? is about?
  Well, yeah, except it doesn't really say anything about it on that page 
  either.
  
  It does now IMHO. Have you read the current version?
 
 Yeah, it does mention what you can do with Freenet in general. Dunno.
 
  e) On the Download page: No idea what a node reference is. (Could be 
  rephrased or explained better)
  That's why it's in quotes, and the Add a friend page does explain it. 
  Do you have any suggestion as to how to improve the wording?
  Perhaps add a paranthesis explaining the term?
  
  Is it a problem? If he clicks the link to Add a Friend it will explain it 
  to him?
 
 Given that he has a node running (it links to localhost fproxy). It is 
 not a problem, just a minor usability quirk IMHO.

Not sure what can be done here. I mean if you actually open the page it's 
obvious what a noderef is.
 
  Very annoying to be asked to install a second  
  browser. In this case, a third (using FF with IE as backup. And user is 
  asked not to use IE). More FUD about history leaks. 
  FUD stands for Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt. Unfortunately, the warnings 
  about browser history stealing are factually true. Perhaps there is an 
  argument for not naming such attacks if this intimidates people? Is the 
  problem with IE important? There are possibilities for working around it, 
  there has never been much enthusiasm for implementing them (even from ian 
  who tends to be usability oriented).
  Exactly. The user is fears the consequences of history 

Re: [freenet-dev] Beta of Windows tray icon + update.cmd updating

[Matthew Toseland]

On Wednesday 17 June 2009 02:45:19 Juiceman wrote:
 On Tue, Jun 16, 2009 at 7:53 PM, Matthew
 Toselandt...@amphibian.dyndns.org wrote:
  On Wednesday 17 June 2009 00:48:44 Juiceman wrote:
  On Tue, Jun 16, 2009 at 7:16 PM, Matthew
  Toselandt...@amphibian.dyndns.org wrote:
   On Tuesday 16 June 2009 23:16:58 Zero3 wrote:
   I've successfully (I think?) branched the master branch of
   wininstaller-staging at github to a new beta branch. This branch now
   contains the upcoming Windows tray icon.
  
   Please feel free to test. Even small fixes like spelling and grammar is
   more than welcome (because mine suck ;)).
  
   Source: http://github.com/freenet/wininstaller-staging/tree/beta
   Binary: http://privat.zero3.dk/FreenetInstaller_Beta.exe (old jars,
   seednodes, translations and so on. Not meant for anything but testing)
  
   Cool!
  
   The update.cmd script will soon need to support the updating of various
   helper executables, most importantly freenetlauncher.exe, but if
   possible, all of them.
  
   Ok.
  
   (Are these on the website somewhere yet Matthew? Along with a plan of
   how they are kept up-to-date...)
  
   If update.cmd tries to update bin\freenettray.exe, it should first do
   something like:
  
   taskkill /IM freenettray.exe
   if not errorlevel 1 remember to start it again afterwards
  
   (... as we can't update running Windows executables)
  
   https://checksums.freenetproject.org/cc/[filename]
   for filename in:
   wrapper-windows-x86-32.exe wrapper-windows-x86-32.dll start.exe stop.exe 
   freenetlauncher.exe
 
  It would be great if we could see the directory listing when we access
  https://checksums.freenetproject.org/cc/ is this possible?
 
  How do you suggest we check for newer versions of the files?
  Downloading them all and then comparing is a waste of bandwidth... I
  could compare the .sha1 of the files if those exist.  That would be
  minuscule bandwidth.
 
  I propose to start checking freenet-ext.jar this way, saving almost 4mb 
  per run.
 
  Yes, that is exactly how it is supposed to work. Furthermore, checking the 
  .sha1 over HTTPS is a good thing in terms of security. So please go for it!
 
 I can't tell for sure because directory listing is denied on that
 folder of the website, but I don't think the .sha1 files for the
 downloads are in https://checksums.freenetproject.org/cc/

Hmmm, that's wierd. Get the sha1 from /latest/ then.


signature.asc
Description: This is a digitally signed message part.
___
Devl mailing list
Devl@freenetproject.org
http://emu.freenetproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/devl

Re: [freenet-dev] need graphic design help

[Matthew Toseland]

On Wednesday 17 June 2009 01:03:38 Clément wrote:
 On Wednesday 17 June 2009 01:18:28 Ian Clarke wrote:
  Ok, we need some help with the website, surely someone out there knows
  their way around Gimp, or Adobe Illustrator or something, or has a
  friend that does?
 
  Highest priorities:
 
  - Fix the logo on the website - it should be Freenet, not FreeNet
 
 See attached (I sent the svg file, so everyone can edit it).

Cool. We could actually do that in CSS, we should probably have hops as a png 
rather than SVG but that's easy... Would you mind exporting the logo as a 
transparent PNG of the correct dimensions, for the time being?

  - Create a decent Get Freenet button, something vaguely like what
  they have on http://getfirefox.com/ or http://jquery.com/.  Stuff like
  Version should be overlayed in text, not drawn on the image, so that
  it can be changed easily.
 
 I asked my girlfriend for that. It should be done by tomorrow. I can't have 
 any guarantee for the result of course :)

:)


signature.asc
Description: This is a digitally signed message part.
___
Devl mailing list
Devl@freenetproject.org
http://emu.freenetproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/devl

Re: [freenet-dev] need graphic design help

[Matthew Toseland]

On Wednesday 17 June 2009 01:19:23 Gerard Krol wrote:
 Clément wrote:
  On Wednesday 17 June 2009 01:18:28 Ian Clarke wrote:

  Ok, we need some help with the website, surely someone out there knows
  their way around Gimp, or Adobe Illustrator or something, or has a
  friend that does?
 
  Highest priorities:
 
  - Fix the logo on the website - it should be Freenet, not FreeNet
 
  
  See attached (I sent the svg file, so everyone can edit it).

 I made the text bold and move the rabbit behind it. It now looks vaguely 
 familiar.
 I don't hope I copied some other well known logo.
 
 Let me know what you think!

IMHO Dieppe's version is better, but what we really need is a button for 
downloading it... Something that could live on the main page directly under the 
what is freenet section, above the news (or screenshots). Ian suggests 
something like the firefox download icon - that involves their project symbol 
and a gradient, so it's pretty straightforward, and then we can put easily 
edited text on top via CSS.


signature.asc
Description: This is a digitally signed message part.
___
Devl mailing list
Devl@freenetproject.org
http://emu.freenetproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/devl

Re: [freenet-dev] Good screenshots needed

[Matthew Toseland]

On Wednesday 17 June 2009 03:16:18 Ian Clarke wrote:
 I've been doing quite a bit of work in my day job with people who have
 done a vast amount of testing of the effectiveness of different
 website designs.
 
 If I were to condense what I've learned into a single caveman
 sentence, it would be:
 
   Big dense blocks of text: BAD, Pictures: GOOD
 
 Screenshots are important, when I want to get a sense of a piece of
 software one of the first things I look for is a screenshot.

Yes but screenshots with no visible news, and which aren't updated for years? 
Doesn't that put off the significant number of people who've tried Freenet 
before and come back on a slashdot to see if it's improved?


signature.asc
Description: This is a digitally signed message part.
___
Devl mailing list
Devl@freenetproject.org
http://emu.freenetproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/devl

Re: [freenet-dev] Good screenshots needed

[Matthew Toseland]

On Wednesday 17 June 2009 07:06:30 Daniel Cheng wrote:
 On Wed, Jun 17, 2009 at 10:16 AM, Ian Clarkei...@locut.us wrote:
  I've been doing quite a bit of work in my day job with people who have
  done a vast amount of testing of the effectiveness of different
  website designs.
 
  If I were to condense what I've learned into a single caveman
  sentence, it would be:
 
   Big dense blocks of text: BAD, Pictures: GOOD
 
 The bad thing is: our fproxy homepage don't have any picture.
 
 Those little ActiveLinks icons got disabled by default.

Well, hopefully people's default instinct to search will be less of a problem 
in future versions because we'll have a non-schizophrenic search index?
 
  Screenshots are important, when I want to get a sense of a piece of
  software one of the first things I look for is a screenshot.
 
  Ian.


signature.asc
Description: This is a digitally signed message part.
___
Devl mailing list
Devl@freenetproject.org
http://emu.freenetproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/devl

Re: [freenet-dev] Good screenshots needed

[Matthew Toseland]

On Wednesday 17 June 2009 08:17:56 Arne Babenhauserheide wrote:
 Am Mittwoch, 17. Juni 2009 08:06:30 schrieb Daniel Cheng:
  The bad thing is: our fproxy homepage don't have any picture.
 
  Those little ActiveLinks icons got disabled by default.
 
 Try using Firefox - at least for me it shows the activelinks. 

Only because they're enabled in your config. They are off by default.


signature.asc
Description: This is a digitally signed message part.
___
Devl mailing list
Devl@freenetproject.org
http://emu.freenetproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/devl

Re: [freenet-dev] First status report of my GSoC project

[Matthew Toseland]

On Wednesday 17 June 2009 13:27:10 sashee wrote:
 Hello everybody!
 
 This is time for my first status report, because mid-term evals are 
 approaching.
 
 Some introduction, what I'm doing exactly. My project is to introduce
 web pushing to the web interface. That actually means, that the data
 displayed are refreshed automatically, without the need to refresh the
 whole page. It is accomplished with ajax requests and javascript at
 the client side, and some toadlets at the serverside. Toad had a
 concern about the number of opened connections, so a connection
 sharing mechanism is also a requirement. This connection sharing
 ensures that only 1 permanent connection is used per browser, no
 matter how many tabs are open. Another requirement is that the web
 interface must be usable when javascript is disabled(but pushing wont
 work that way)
 
 About my current status:I've created the basic infrastructure both
 server and client side, so pushing works and connection sharing also.

Great! You have tested this?

 Currently only the progress bar on the progress page is pushed, but it
 nicely visualize the feature. The client side is written in java, and
 transformed to javascript with the help of the GWT compiler.

Very nice.
 
 How to check the current status:
 Pull and checkout to the web-pushing branch, then build the project.
 Please don't distclean, because it will delete the generated
 javascript, and you won't be able to generate it yourself atm. Then
 start Freenet, and open a browser with it. You have to enable
 javascript both on your browser and on Freenet. Now you should browse
 Freenet, and see the progress bar is updating, and when the loading is
 ready, you get the page you just fetched. I've put some tester
 elements at the status page, they are increased by 1 every second.
 They help to see bugs, as they use pushing heavily.
 
 I've tested it at Firefox both windows and linux, and IE7. They worked
 well, although testing on other systems would be helpful.

Chrome compatibility is important. The current progress bar javascript doesn't 
work on Chrome, we have to detect AppleWebKit (also used for Safari, default 
browser on OS/X) and fall back to a refresh at the moment. Chrome is important 
because it is the only currently shipping browser to have an incognito mode; 
hence, on Windows, if Chrome is installed, we use it. Hopefully GWT solves the 
compatibility issues the hand-crafted code has, but we need to verify this.
 
 Please don't use pushing, just for testing and reviewing. It has some
 major bug that needs to be addressed. But feedback is always
 appreciated.
 
 What's next?
 As I've 3 weeks before mid term eval, I'll fix the known bugs and
 optimize some processes, and it also needs be documented and
 commented. The pushing can also be used for the images' loading, but
 I'll write a separate email about that.

That would be very helpful yes, probably more important than the original 
project of making the various status pages dynamically update.

Apologies for not reviewing/testing your code so far, have been busy with the 
release. I'm not here from the 20th to the 27th so I will try to review all 
recent changes, especially for my SoC students, and test the code where 
possible.
 
 sashee


signature.asc
Description: This is a digitally signed message part.
___
Devl mailing list
Devl@freenetproject.org
http://emu.freenetproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/devl

Re: [freenet-dev] need graphic design help

[Clément]

On Wednesday 17 June 2009 14:54:21 Matthew Toseland wrote:
 On Wednesday 17 June 2009 01:03:38 Clément wrote:
  On Wednesday 17 June 2009 01:18:28 Ian Clarke wrote:
   Ok, we need some help with the website, surely someone out there knows
   their way around Gimp, or Adobe Illustrator or something, or has a
   friend that does?
  
   Highest priorities:
  
   - Fix the logo on the website - it should be Freenet, not FreeNet
 
  See attached (I sent the svg file, so everyone can edit it).

 Cool. We could actually do that in CSS, we should probably have hops as a
 png rather than SVG but that's easy... Would you mind exporting the logo as
 a transparent PNG of the correct dimensions, for the time being?

See attached.
   - Create a decent Get Freenet button, something vaguely like what
   they have on http://getfirefox.com/ or http://jquery.com/.  Stuff like
   Version should be overlayed in text, not drawn on the image, so that
   it can be changed easily.
 
  I asked my girlfriend for that. It should be done by tomorrow. I can't
  have any guarantee for the result of course :)
 
 :)

attachment: freenet_logo.png___
Devl mailing list
Devl@freenetproject.org
http://emu.freenetproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/devl

Re: [freenet-dev] need graphic design help

[Caco Patane]

 Cool. We could actually do that in CSS, we should probably have hops as a png 
 rather than SVG but that's easy... Would you mind exporting the logo as a 
 transparent PNG of the correct dimensions, for the time being?

Be aware of PNG because IE6 does not support well PNG transparency (is
IE6 anyway...).
___
Devl mailing list
Devl@freenetproject.org
http://emu.freenetproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/devl

Re: [freenet-dev] First status report of my GSoC project

[sashee]

On Wed, Jun 17, 2009 at 3:09 PM, Matthew
Toselandt...@amphibian.dyndns.org wrote:
 On Wednesday 17 June 2009 13:27:10 sashee wrote:
 Hello everybody!

 This is time for my first status report, because mid-term evals are 
 approaching.

 Some introduction, what I'm doing exactly. My project is to introduce
 web pushing to the web interface. That actually means, that the data
 displayed are refreshed automatically, without the need to refresh the
 whole page. It is accomplished with ajax requests and javascript at
 the client side, and some toadlets at the serverside. Toad had a
 concern about the number of opened connections, so a connection
 sharing mechanism is also a requirement. This connection sharing
 ensures that only 1 permanent connection is used per browser, no
 matter how many tabs are open. Another requirement is that the web
 interface must be usable when javascript is disabled(but pushing wont
 work that way)

 About my current status:I've created the basic infrastructure both
 server and client side, so pushing works and connection sharing also.

 Great! You have tested this?

Yes, you can test it too, by going to the status page with 2 browser
tabs. You will see the numbers counting on both of them. Then close
the one that you opened earlier(that holds the connection) and see the
other tab. It should stop for 3-4 seconds(in that time, it realises,
that there is no open connection, and opens a new one), and will
continue counting.


 Currently only the progress bar on the progress page is pushed, but it
 nicely visualize the feature. The client side is written in java, and
 transformed to javascript with the help of the GWT compiler.

 Very nice.

 How to check the current status:
 Pull and checkout to the web-pushing branch, then build the project.
 Please don't distclean, because it will delete the generated
 javascript, and you won't be able to generate it yourself atm. Then
 start Freenet, and open a browser with it. You have to enable
 javascript both on your browser and on Freenet. Now you should browse
 Freenet, and see the progress bar is updating, and when the loading is
 ready, you get the page you just fetched. I've put some tester
 elements at the status page, they are increased by 1 every second.
 They help to see bugs, as they use pushing heavily.

 I've tested it at Firefox both windows and linux, and IE7. They worked
 well, although testing on other systems would be helpful.

 Chrome compatibility is important. The current progress bar javascript 
 doesn't work on Chrome, we have to detect AppleWebKit (also used for Safari, 
 default browser on OS/X) and fall back to a refresh at the moment. Chrome is 
 important because it is the only currently shipping browser to have an 
 incognito mode; hence, on Windows, if Chrome is installed, we use it. 
 Hopefully GWT solves the compatibility issues the hand-crafted code has, but 
 we need to verify this.

I've tried Chrome and it worked like the others.


 Please don't use pushing, just for testing and reviewing. It has some
 major bug that needs to be addressed. But feedback is always
 appreciated.

 What's next?
 As I've 3 weeks before mid term eval, I'll fix the known bugs and
 optimize some processes, and it also needs be documented and
 commented. The pushing can also be used for the images' loading, but
 I'll write a separate email about that.

 That would be very helpful yes, probably more important than the original 
 project of making the various status pages dynamically update.

 Apologies for not reviewing/testing your code so far, have been busy with the 
 release. I'm not here from the 20th to the 27th so I will try to review all 
 recent changes, especially for my SoC students, and test the code where 
 possible.

No problem, I've had work to do anyway.


 sashee

___
Devl mailing list
Devl@freenetproject.org
http://emu.freenetproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/devl

[freenet-dev] Asynchronous image loading

[sashee]

Hello folks!

Some days ago, I've talked with nextgens about toadlet
continuations(it's asynchronous request processing), and he had a
point that when the user opens a site with lots of images, then it
needs many connections open for a long time, and it spawns many
threads at serverside, which is resource demanding and some OSes don't
allow. The browser has a maximum connection limit to the site, but the
user can overwrite it. But at the default, firefox opens only 2-3
connections to fetch the images, this way freenet don't start all the
fetching, just what is requested. So one problem is that if a user
alters the browser's config, then it will result many threads, if not,
then freenet can't download all the content simultanously.
I think with pushing, I'm working on, can be a solution for both
problems. When the page loads, freenet start fetching all the images,
and the browser gets the progress with 1 permanent connection. There
can be an image eg. Image is loading...10% and after some progress
change to 20% and so on, and when finishes downloading, it shows or
says eg. Image finished loading, click to display. If it's done, we
don't need continuations anymore. Ofc it would need javascript to be
enabled.

What you think?

sashee
___
Devl mailing list
Devl@freenetproject.org
http://emu.freenetproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/devl

Re: [freenet-dev] Asynchronous image loading

[Daniel Cheng]

On 17/6/2009 22:36, sashee wrote:
  this way freenet don't start all the
 fetching, just what is requested... When the page loads, freenet
  start fetching all the images,

Did you look at your /config/fproxy page ?
There is an option called Enable prefetching of inline images ..

 What you think?

:)
___
Devl mailing list
Devl@freenetproject.org
http://emu.freenetproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/devl

Re: [freenet-dev] First status report of my GSoC project

[Thomas Bruderer]

sashee wrote:

This sounds very promising :) and it is certainly a nice feature we all 
will appreciate very much.


However I have a rather technical questions out of curiousity, you talk 
several times about pushing the content.



It is accomplished with ajax requests and javascript at the client side
  
so pushing works and connection sharing also



Do you really push the content to the browser when the state changed, or 
does the client just poll every 2 seconds as it does now for the 
complete page?


Comparing: http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/AJAX vs 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comet_(programming)


Just curious :) since you use a toadlet I can imagine that both would be 
viable solutions.


Apophis


smime.p7s
Description: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature
___
Devl mailing list
Devl@freenetproject.org
http://emu.freenetproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/devl

Re: [freenet-dev] need graphic design help

[Matthew Toseland]

On Wednesday 17 June 2009 14:27:28 Caco Patane wrote:
  Cool. We could actually do that in CSS, we should probably have hops as a 
  png rather than SVG but that's easy... Would you mind exporting the logo as 
  a transparent PNG of the correct dimensions, for the time being?
 
 Be aware of PNG because IE6 does not support well PNG transparency (is
 IE6 anyway...).

Hmmm... do we care? How many people use IE6 at the moment? And what exactly 
happens on IE6 with 1-bit-transparent PNGs?


signature.asc
Description: This is a digitally signed message part.
___
Devl mailing list
Devl@freenetproject.org
http://emu.freenetproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/devl

Re: [freenet-dev] Asynchronous image loading

[Matthew Toseland]

On Wednesday 17 June 2009 15:36:26 sashee wrote:
 Hello folks!
 
 Some days ago, I've talked with nextgens about toadlet
 continuations(it's asynchronous request processing), and he had a
 point that when the user opens a site with lots of images, then it
 needs many connections open for a long time, and it spawns many
 threads at serverside, which is resource demanding and some OSes don't
 allow. The browser has a maximum connection limit to the site, but the
 user can overwrite it. But at the default, firefox opens only 2-3
 connections to fetch the images, this way freenet don't start all the
 fetching, just what is requested. So one problem is that if a user
 alters the browser's config, then it will result many threads, if not,
 then freenet can't download all the content simultanously.
 I think with pushing, I'm working on, can be a solution for both
 problems. When the page loads, freenet start fetching all the images,
 and the browser gets the progress with 1 permanent connection. There
 can be an image eg. Image is loading...10% and after some progress
 change to 20% and so on, and when finishes downloading, it shows or
 says eg. Image finished loading, click to display. If it's done, we
 don't need continuations anymore. Ofc it would need javascript to be
 enabled.

IMHO it should just replace the progress image with the final image contents, 
i.e. change the link to point to the image now that we know it's been fetched 
(use some caching to avoid stalling, but mostly it should load fast).
 
 What you think?

Apart from that, it sounds like a good solution.
 
 sashee


signature.asc
Description: This is a digitally signed message part.
___
Devl mailing list
Devl@freenetproject.org
http://emu.freenetproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/devl

Re: [freenet-dev] usability testing

[Zero3]

Matthew Toseland skrev:
 On Wednesday 17 June 2009 09:54:18 Zero3 wrote:
 Matthew Toseland skrev:
 On Tuesday 16 June 2009 21:53:09 Zero3 wrote:
 Matthew Toseland skrev:
 On Sunday 14 June 2009 14:24:39 Zero3 wrote:
 a) On the front page of the website: A What is Freenet? teaser linking 
 to the What is Freenet? page would be cool. Confusedly started to read 
 the news item instead. (She should have spotted the News headline, but 
 I agree on the teaser)
 I think originally the reason for putting news on the main page was that 
 a lot of people check back on the website repeatedly, looking for new 
 stuff (i.e. news) ?:

 I agree we should have some basic explanation and link on the home page 
 though ... I am not quite sure whether just copying the first para from 
 What is Freenet as Dieppe has done is sufficient?

 Freenet is free software which lets you publish and obtain information 
 on the Internet without fear of censorship. To achieve this freedom, the 
 network is entirely decentralized and publishers and consumers of 
 information are anonymous. Without anonymity there can never be true 
 freedom of speech, and without decentralization the network will be 
 vulnerable to attack.

 Followed by a link to learn more, a download link and news.

 Is this sufficiently comprehensible to newbies? I guess so, but it 
 doesn't really answer the question!
 I think it's quite good actually! I think Without anonymity there can 
 never be true freedom of speech) is a bit subjective though.
 Alternatives? Clearly anonymity is a direct consequence of the overriding 
 goal of thwarting censorship.
 Ala The anonymity of Freenet makes true freedom of speech possible
 
 Freenet is free software which lets you anonymously share files, browse and 
 publish freesites (web sites accessible only through Freenet) and chat on 
 forums, without fear of censorship. Freenet is decentralised to make it less 
 vulnerable to attack.
 
 Or even:
 
 Freenet is free software which lets you anonymously share files, browse and 
 publish freesites (web sites accessible only through Freenet) and chat on 
 forums, without fear of censorship. Freenet is decentralised to make it less 
 vulnerable to attack, and if used in darknet mode, where users only connect 
 to their friends, is very difficult to detect.
 
 ???

Sounds better to me.

 Very annoying to be asked to install a second  
 browser. In this case, a third (using FF with IE as backup. And user is 
 asked not to use IE). More FUD about history leaks. 
 FUD stands for Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt. Unfortunately, the warnings 
 about browser history stealing are factually true. Perhaps there is an 
 argument for not naming such attacks if this intimidates people? Is the 
 problem with IE important? There are possibilities for working around it, 
 there has never been much enthusiasm for implementing them (even from ian 
 who tends to be usability oriented).
 Exactly. The user is fears the consequences of history leaks and is 
 uncertain what he ought to do, and thereby doubts his security and 
 privacy using Freenet.
 He knows what he needs to do - use a separate browser. Don't we make that 
 clear? It may be annoying but it is clear, no?
 It is indeed very clear, but as you say, also damn annoying. If 
 possible, I think we should avoid annoying the user.
 
 Well, any suggestions you may have... afaics the best option on windows is to 
 run Chrome in incognito mode, and tell the wizard not to show the warning. 
 But in that case we need to warn the user if they ever use another browser - 
 and we can't tell the difference between Chrome in incognito mode and Chrome 
 not in incognito mode, so I think we should display the warning anyway, we 
 just need to rewrite it a bit for the case where we are using Chrome in 
 incognito mode:
 
 You must always use a browser with incognito mode for Freenet!
 
 You are currently using Freenet through Chrome in incognito mode. This should 
 be safe. You should always access Freenet using Chrome in incognito mode, or 
 through a browser you do not using for normal web browsing. The Browse 
 Freenet link on the start menu should use Chrome in incognito mode, and so 
 should be safe. Most browsers will work well with Freenet, except for 
 Internet Explorer.
 
 Click here to continue.
 
 ???

I don't think we should display a warning when the user is browsing in 
incognito mode. When the user is not (or we don't know for sure), we 
could do it.

- Zero3
___
Devl mailing list
Devl@freenetproject.org
http://emu.freenetproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/devl

Re: [freenet-dev] need graphic design help

[Caco Patane]

 Hmmm... do we care? How many people use IE6 at the moment? And what exactly 
 happens on IE6 with 1-bit-transparent PNGs?

At least here (latin america) there are tons of IE6 users: because
hardware is expensive nobody installs vista, nobody buys original
windows copies and don't get the updates. In webdevelopment usually is
a requirement to support IE6 -again, in Latinamerica-.

IE6 shows the transparent pixels as grey. There are some nasty hacks
that can be done with JS and can be included using HTML conditional
comments[1].

Saludos,
Caco_Patane !

[1] http://www.quirksmode.org/css/condcom.html
___
Devl mailing list
Devl@freenetproject.org
http://emu.freenetproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/devl

Re: [freenet-dev] First status report of my GSoC project

[sashee]

When I said pushng, I meant pushing, really. It is achieved via long
polling, means that the browser makes a connection, and the server
wait till data changes. If it does, then it replies, and the browser
opens another connection. So a data change triggers it, and not just
frequent polling.

sashee

On Wed, Jun 17, 2009 at 4:46 PM, Thomas Brudererapop...@apophis.ch wrote:
 sashee wrote:

 This sounds very promising :) and it is certainly a nice feature we all will
 appreciate very much.

 However I have a rather technical questions out of curiousity, you talk
 several times about pushing the content.

 It is accomplished with ajax requests and javascript at the client side
  so pushing works and connection sharing also


 Do you really push the content to the browser when the state changed, or
 does the client just poll every 2 seconds as it does now for the complete
 page?

 Comparing: http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/AJAX vs
 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comet_(programming)

 Just curious :) since you use a toadlet I can imagine that both would be
 viable solutions.

 Apophis

 ___
 Devl mailing list
 Devl@freenetproject.org
 http://emu.freenetproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/devl

___
Devl mailing list
Devl@freenetproject.org
http://emu.freenetproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/devl

Re: [freenet-dev] Asynchronous image loading

[sashee]

Ok, thats true. But the browser won't show an image till all the image
above are shown, because it uses 2-3 connections to fetch the images
sequentially. It may happen that a few image that fetches very slowly
will hang all the others, even if they are completely present.

sashee

On Wed, Jun 17, 2009 at 4:46 PM, Daniel Chengj16sdiz+free...@gmail.com wrote:
 On 17/6/2009 22:36, sashee wrote:
  this way freenet don't start all the
 fetching, just what is requested... When the page loads, freenet
   start fetching all the images,

 Did you look at your /config/fproxy page ?
 There is an option called Enable prefetching of inline images ..

 What you think?

 :)
 ___
 Devl mailing list
 Devl@freenetproject.org
 http://emu.freenetproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/devl

___
Devl mailing list
Devl@freenetproject.org
http://emu.freenetproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/devl

[freenet-dev] Recent work on web-pushing branch

[Matthew Toseland]

In testing, it appears to stick on some pages/files (but maybe that's just 
freenet), and obviously it only updates the progress bar and not the rest of 
the information about a download. I'm guessing maybe failed blocks aren't being 
reported? I haven't seen any indication of any failed blocks in all my testing, 
which seems rather unlikely...

As far as I can see, this is the approximate changelog (detailed comments 
below):
Purpose: To use javascript and a single push connection per browser to update 
various pages in real time. Currently, just the progress page. In future, the 
connections and queue pages will also be refreshed dynamically, and this work 
will also form the basis of a solution for the slow inline image loading 
problem.
Generated code:
- Everything inside staticfiles/freenetjs/ is generated. The contents of this 
dir are deleted when running ant distclean. Generating it requires the GWT 
jars, which compile java to javascript.
- The source code for this is currently in generator/js/.
- The GWT jars must be in generator/js/lib/.
Connection sharing:
- One window makes a connection.
- Every 100ms, followers process messages from the leader.
- Keepalive every 1sec, failover after 3sec.
- Failover assigns a new leader, arbitrated by /failover/ on the node (only 
allows failover from a request ID that was on the awaiting notifications list).
HTMLNode generation:
- Script formatting.
- generateChildren() to render a node's children to a string buffer.
- BaseUpdateableElement: base class of any updatable HTMLNode. Has the original 
ToadletContext, and an updateState() function to regenerate it.
- ProgressBarElement: an updatable element for a progress bar. Refactored from 
fproxy.
- Requests have a unique ID, available from ToadletContext, and put in a hidden 
value in PageMaker.
Event tracking:
- PushDataToadlet: fetch data from here.
- PushNotificationToadlet: poll for updates from here.
- PushKeepaliveToadlet: send keepalives here.
- FailoverToadlet: arbitrates failover.
- PushDataManager: Tracks elements that need updating, elements currently 
displayed, etc.
- Client sends a keepalive every 10 seconds. Anything not received in 21 
seconds is pruned.
Refactoring:
- Factor out FProxyFetchTracker.getFetcher().
Trivial:
- 2x test commits.

My comments about the code:

Synchronization issues in PushDataManager: In the early commits this was 
inconsistent, are you happy with it now?

Hidden input for the request ID (in PageMaker): is this valid HTML? IIRC it's 
not inside a form?

Is separating data from notifications more efficient, even though it involves 
more round-trips?

Re + in base64, you could just use a different encoding - the freenet 
nonstandard base64 for example. You can easily change the base64 code used in 
the java code to deal with this? OTOH you could avoid it completely with some 
changes to the wire format...

In the cleaner thread:
+   for (EntryString, Boolean entry : new 
HashMapString, Boolean(isKeepaliveReceived).entrySet()) {
...
+   
isKeepaliveReceived.put(entry.getKey(), false);

Is this safe? You don't get ConcurrentModificationException's?

Please use Ticker rather than java timers, because of thread pooling and thread 
priority issues.

Would it make sense to randomise the failover interval slightly, so that one 
fails over and then the other two don't need to?

You are assuming we will almost never reach MAX_MESSAGES, and in that case the 
output will just be a little out of date, this is probably reasonable.

PushDataManager.awaitingNotifications only contains the leaders, correct? But 
all events are broadcast to all leaders? (Javadocs for the variables would be 
nice)


signature.asc
Description: This is a digitally signed message part.
___
Devl mailing list
Devl@freenetproject.org
http://emu.freenetproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/devl

Re: [freenet-dev] Recent work on web-pushing branch

[sashee]

Thats a good summary, couldnt write it better myself.
As for the questions:

 Synchronization issues in PushDataManager: In the early commits this was 
 inconsistent, are you happy with it now?

No, I'm not happy with it yet. It has a fatal bug in there, and I'll
need to debug it. Sometimes a closed tab has make it to the
awaitingNotifications, and it leaks memory.

 Hidden input for the request ID (in PageMaker): is this valid HTML? IIRC it's 
 not inside a form?

Firefox says it's valid, so I think it is

 Is separating data from notifications more efficient, even though it involves 
 more round-trips?

It is needed, because data can be any size, but cookies has a max. It
does involves more round trip, but it's just going to localhost, and
thats fast.

 Re + in base64, you could just use a different encoding - the freenet 
 nonstandard base64 for example. You can easily change the base64 code used in 
 the java code to deal with this? OTOH you could avoid it completely with some 
 changes to the wire format...

The + is the only problematic character, that is in the BASE64
coding and HTML escaping too. As for now, it hasn't gave me too much
headache, but if it will in the future, I'll consider changing.

 In the cleaner thread:
 +                               for (EntryString, Boolean entry : new 
 HashMapString, Boolean(isKeepaliveReceived).entrySet()) {
 ...
 +                                               
 isKeepaliveReceived.put(entry.getKey(), false);

 Is this safe? You don't get ConcurrentModificationException's?

It isn't modified concurrently, because a new HashMap is created from
the isKeepaliveReceived map, and it's entrySet is being iterated.


 Please use Ticker rather than java timers, because of thread pooling and 
 thread priority issues.

K, will rewrite it

 Would it make sense to randomise the failover interval slightly, so that one 
 fails over and then the other two don't need to?

The failover is randomised, because it is based on the loading of the
page. It is different for every tab.

 You are assuming we will almost never reach MAX_MESSAGES, and in that case 
 the output will just be a little out of date, this is probably reasonable.

MAX_MESSAGES is the maximum difference between the leader's message
count and the followers'. It shouldn't be reached, because it would
need that the leader has receive events in a 100/10=10ms interval, and
thats not possible, an xmlhttpconnection needs more time. If magically
the MAX_MESSAGES is hit, then some notifications will be lost.

 PushDataManager.awaitingNotifications only contains the leaders, correct? 
 But all events are broadcast to all leaders? (Javadocs for the variables 
 would be nice)

All events are broadcast to all leaders, yes. There is one leader for
every browser, and because we dont know which request belongs to which
browser, we need to broadcast. And because only leaders asks for
notifications, we need only to dispatch them to leaders. Thats what
the serverside failover does. It copies all the notifications from the
old leader's list to the new one.

I've only did the coding part yet. When it seems finalized, I'll write
comments, javadocs and some documents about how it works and how ppl
can code against it.

For the build process to be integrated, I'll need the 2 jars to be
publicly available somewhere. If it is, then everybody could build
even after a distclean.

sashee
___
Devl mailing list
Devl@freenetproject.org
http://emu.freenetproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/devl

Re: [freenet-dev] First status report of my GSoC project

[Thomas Bruderer]

Very nice!

sashee wrote:

When I said pushng, I meant pushing, really. It is achieved via long
polling, means that the browser makes a connection, and the server
wait till data changes. If it does, then it replies, and the browser
opens another connection. So a data change triggers it, and not just
frequent polling.
  




smime.p7s
Description: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature
___
Devl mailing list
Devl@freenetproject.org
http://emu.freenetproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/devl

Re: [freenet-dev] Asynchronous image loading

[sashee]

So my question is: Is it needed? If it helps, I'll do it before the
midterm evals, but if it doesnt improve anything, then no need to
program it.

On Wed, Jun 17, 2009 at 5:44 PM, sasheegsas...@gmail.com wrote:
 Ok, thats true. But the browser won't show an image till all the image
 above are shown, because it uses 2-3 connections to fetch the images
 sequentially. It may happen that a few image that fetches very slowly
 will hang all the others, even if they are completely present.

 sashee

 On Wed, Jun 17, 2009 at 4:46 PM, Daniel Chengj16sdiz+free...@gmail.com 
 wrote:
 On 17/6/2009 22:36, sashee wrote:
  this way freenet don't start all the
 fetching, just what is requested... When the page loads, freenet
   start fetching all the images,

 Did you look at your /config/fproxy page ?
 There is an option called Enable prefetching of inline images ..

 What you think?

 :)
 ___
 Devl mailing list
 Devl@freenetproject.org
 http://emu.freenetproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/devl


___
Devl mailing list
Devl@freenetproject.org
http://emu.freenetproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/devl

Re: [freenet-dev] Asynchronous image loading

[Matthew Toseland]

On Wednesday 17 June 2009 19:23:22 sashee wrote:
 So my question is: Is it needed? If it helps, I'll do it before the
 midterm evals, but if it doesnt improve anything, then no need to
 program it.

Yes. IMHO it is important. Prefetching has never worked well on new nodes, and 
doesn't solve the connection limit problem anyway. Also the infrastructure will 
be interesting as later on we may want notifications on loaded pages (e.g. 
there is a more recent version of this page available, but maybe also 
critical node events).

Feel free to make a very basic implementation where you either have the loaded 
image or you have a loading graphic with no indication of how far it has got. 
*Ideally* we'd have the loading images be dependant on how far the request has 
got, but this isn't essential, certainly not for a first approximation ... 
another interesting option would be to show a progress bar showing the overall 
progress, ETA, etc. One thing that *is* critical is that we stop loading the 
images if the user closes the page, but afaics the existing infrastructure will 
do that.
 
 On Wed, Jun 17, 2009 at 5:44 PM, sasheegsas...@gmail.com wrote:
  Ok, thats true. But the browser won't show an image till all the image
  above are shown, because it uses 2-3 connections to fetch the images
  sequentially. It may happen that a few image that fetches very slowly
  will hang all the others, even if they are completely present.
 
  sashee
 
  On Wed, Jun 17, 2009 at 4:46 PM, Daniel Chengj16sdiz+free...@gmail.com 
  wrote:
  On 17/6/2009 22:36, sashee wrote:
   this way freenet don't start all the
  fetching, just what is requested... When the page loads, freenet
    start fetching all the images,
 
  Did you look at your /config/fproxy page ?
  There is an option called Enable prefetching of inline images ..
 
  What you think?
 
  :)


signature.asc
Description: This is a digitally signed message part.
___
Devl mailing list
Devl@freenetproject.org
http://emu.freenetproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/devl

Re: [freenet-dev] need graphic design help

[Matthew Toseland]

On Wednesday 17 June 2009 16:26:35 Caco Patane wrote:
  Hmmm... do we care? How many people use IE6 at the moment? And what exactly 
  happens on IE6 with 1-bit-transparent PNGs?
 
 At least here (latin america) there are tons of IE6 users: because
 hardware is expensive nobody installs vista, nobody buys original
 windows copies and don't get the updates. In webdevelopment usually is
 a requirement to support IE6 -again, in Latinamerica-.

Hmmm, I thought IE7 was available for XP?
 
 IE6 shows the transparent pixels as grey. There are some nasty hacks
 that can be done with JS and can be included using HTML conditional
 comments[1].
 
 Saludos,
 Caco_Patane !
 
 [1] http://www.quirksmode.org/css/condcom.html

Can you make a version with a background and some javascript to include it on 
IE6?


signature.asc
Description: This is a digitally signed message part.
___
Devl mailing list
Devl@freenetproject.org
http://emu.freenetproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/devl

Re: [freenet-dev] About the website

[3BUIb3S50i 3BUIb3S50i]

Can you make a link to another languages? (Like french wiki.) See
https://bugs.freenetproject.org/view.php?id=2915


On Wed, Jun 17, 2009 at 1:57 PM, Matthew Toseland t...@amphibian.dyndns.org
 wrote:

 On Wednesday 17 June 2009 07:40:18 Arne Babenhauserheide wrote:
  Am Mittwoch, 17. Juni 2009 05:26:25 schrieb Luke771:
   Browse and publish 'freesites' (Freenet-hosted websites)
 
  This one sounds very nice to me. It gets people into the freenet-speech
 and at
  the same time tells them why we use it (what's the difference between a
  freesite and a normal website).

 Currently it is:

 Freenet is free software which lets you anonymously share files, browse and
 publish freesites (web sites accessible only through Freenet) and chat on
 forums, without fear of censorship. Users are anonymous, and Freenet is
 entirely decentralised. Without anonymity there can never be true freedom of
 speech, and without decentralisation the network would be vulnerable to
 attack.

 ___
 Devl mailing list
 Devl@freenetproject.org
 http://emu.freenetproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/devl

___
Devl mailing list
Devl@freenetproject.org
http://emu.freenetproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/devl

Re: [freenet-dev] Asynchronous image loading

[sashee]

Ok, I'll schedule that then.
 One thing that *is* critical is that we stop loading the images if the user 
 closes the page, but afaics the existing infrastructure will do that.

I really dont think that anything gets notified when the user closes
the tab. So I dont think fetching is stopped then.

As I see the prefetching has a 1 minute timeout, so it isn't really
solving things. Inline prefetch fetches stuff, but only those, that
are fast, and kills the others. And the browser's request fetches the
other(almost all) images, 2(3) at a time. Asyncronous fetching would
solve that problem, because it can notify(and cancel) the fetches when
the user actually closes the tab.

sashee

On Wed, Jun 17, 2009 at 8:28 PM, Matthew
Toselandt...@amphibian.dyndns.org wrote:
 On Wednesday 17 June 2009 19:23:22 sashee wrote:
 So my question is: Is it needed? If it helps, I'll do it before the
 midterm evals, but if it doesnt improve anything, then no need to
 program it.

 Yes. IMHO it is important. Prefetching has never worked well on new nodes, 
 and doesn't solve the connection limit problem anyway. Also the 
 infrastructure will be interesting as later on we may want notifications on 
 loaded pages (e.g. there is a more recent version of this page available, 
 but maybe also critical node events).

 Feel free to make a very basic implementation where you either have the 
 loaded image or you have a loading graphic with no indication of how far it 
 has got. *Ideally* we'd have the loading images be dependant on how far the 
 request has got, but this isn't essential, certainly not for a first 
 approximation ... another interesting option would be to show a progress bar 
 showing the overall progress, ETA, etc. One thing that *is* critical is that 
 we stop loading the images if the user closes the page, but afaics the 
 existing infrastructure will do that.

 On Wed, Jun 17, 2009 at 5:44 PM, sasheegsas...@gmail.com wrote:
  Ok, thats true. But the browser won't show an image till all the image
  above are shown, because it uses 2-3 connections to fetch the images
  sequentially. It may happen that a few image that fetches very slowly
  will hang all the others, even if they are completely present.
 
  sashee
 
  On Wed, Jun 17, 2009 at 4:46 PM, Daniel Chengj16sdiz+free...@gmail.com 
  wrote:
  On 17/6/2009 22:36, sashee wrote:
   this way freenet don't start all the
  fetching, just what is requested... When the page loads, freenet
    start fetching all the images,
 
  Did you look at your /config/fproxy page ?
  There is an option called Enable prefetching of inline images ..
 
  What you think?
 
  :)

 ___
 Devl mailing list
 Devl@freenetproject.org
 http://emu.freenetproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/devl

___
Devl mailing list
Devl@freenetproject.org
http://emu.freenetproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/devl

Re: [freenet-dev] need graphic design help

[Zero3]

Matthew Toseland skrev:
 On Wednesday 17 June 2009 16:26:35 Caco Patane wrote:
 Hmmm... do we care? How many people use IE6 at the moment? And what exactly 
 happens on IE6 with 1-bit-transparent PNGs?
 At least here (latin america) there are tons of IE6 users: because
 hardware is expensive nobody installs vista, nobody buys original
 windows copies and don't get the updates. In webdevelopment usually is
 a requirement to support IE6 -again, in Latinamerica-.
 
 Hmmm, I thought IE7 was available for XP?

Both IE 7 and IE 8 are available for XP.

I think he means that users in poor areas usually run pirated versions 
of XP with the included IE6. Many of these installations won't have a 
functional Windows Update because of the Genuine Advantage stuff 
Microsoft pushes through it. Wich means that they won't get IE updates 
automatically, and probably won't/can't upgrade manually.

- Zero3
___
Devl mailing list
Devl@freenetproject.org
http://emu.freenetproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/devl

Re: [freenet-dev] need graphic design help

[Caco Patane]

 I think he means that users in poor areas usually run pirated versions
 of XP with the included IE6. Many of these installations won't have a
 functional Windows Update because of the Genuine Advantage stuff
 Microsoft pushes through it. Wich means that they won't get IE updates
 automatically, and probably won't/can't upgrade manually.

That's it! But not only poor areas, only companies and laptop users
run genuine software. Brand computers (Dell, IBM, etc) are only
purchased by multinational corporations. I used an original copy of
windows for a work in a big corp, not even un goverment offices (kinda
fun). I think that the same scenarios goes for all latin america...
Venezuela, Bolivia and Cuba are in delicate positions regarding
freedom of speech. Chavez already closed a TV channel =D

For the PNG thing, we can use the PNG with transparent background and
in the head tag include:

!--[if IE 6]
script type=text/javacript src=source_to_script_that_fix_that.js /
![endif]--

No new image is needed, those javascripts fix it.
___
Devl mailing list
Devl@freenetproject.org
http://emu.freenetproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/devl

Re: [freenet-dev] Recent work on web-pushing branch

[sashee]

 This is going to be very inefficient for a public gateway... otoh maybe 
 that's not an important use case. In fact, it's a privacy issue for a node 
 serving several users over a LAN (or even more so for a public gateway). Can 
 you reasonably easily make it track who is subscribed to which leader?

It should be doable, will think about it.

sashee
___
Devl mailing list
Devl@freenetproject.org
http://emu.freenetproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/devl

Re: [freenet-dev] need graphic design help

[sashee]

As I see in the statistics
(http://www.w3schools.com/browsers/browsers_stats.asp) IE6 has 14.5%
share and radically decreasing. In my opinion, I think it should be
left dead as it should have been a long time ago. I don't think if
somebody uses that good-for-nothing browser, he will be too irritated
seeing something is broken in it.

sashee

On Wed, Jun 17, 2009 at 9:43 PM, Caco Patanecacopat...@gmail.com wrote:
 I think he means that users in poor areas usually run pirated versions
 of XP with the included IE6. Many of these installations won't have a
 functional Windows Update because of the Genuine Advantage stuff
 Microsoft pushes through it. Wich means that they won't get IE updates
 automatically, and probably won't/can't upgrade manually.

 That's it! But not only poor areas, only companies and laptop users
 run genuine software. Brand computers (Dell, IBM, etc) are only
 purchased by multinational corporations. I used an original copy of
 windows for a work in a big corp, not even un goverment offices (kinda
 fun). I think that the same scenarios goes for all latin america...
 Venezuela, Bolivia and Cuba are in delicate positions regarding
 freedom of speech. Chavez already closed a TV channel =D

 For the PNG thing, we can use the PNG with transparent background and
 in the head tag include:

 !--[if IE 6]
 script type=text/javacript src=source_to_script_that_fix_that.js /
 ![endif]--

 No new image is needed, those javascripts fix it.
 ___
 Devl mailing list
 Devl@freenetproject.org
 http://emu.freenetproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/devl

___
Devl mailing list
Devl@freenetproject.org
http://emu.freenetproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/devl

Re: [freenet-dev] Asynchronous image loading

[Matthew Toseland]

On Wednesday 17 June 2009 20:19:25 sashee wrote:
 Ok, I'll schedule that then.
  One thing that *is* critical is that we stop loading the images if the user 
  closes the page, but afaics the existing infrastructure will do that.
 
 I really dont think that anything gets notified when the user closes
 the tab. So I dont think fetching is stopped then.
 
 As I see the prefetching has a 1 minute timeout, so it isn't really
 solving things. Inline prefetch fetches stuff, but only those, that
 are fast, and kills the others. And the browser's request fetches the
 other(almost all) images, 2(3) at a time. Asyncronous fetching would
 solve that problem, because it can notify(and cancel) the fetches when
 the user actually closes the tab.

Or at least within 21 seconds of closing the tab. :)

Can you improve on that?
 
 sashee
 
 On Wed, Jun 17, 2009 at 8:28 PM, Matthew
 Toselandt...@amphibian.dyndns.org wrote:
  On Wednesday 17 June 2009 19:23:22 sashee wrote:
  So my question is: Is it needed? If it helps, I'll do it before the
  midterm evals, but if it doesnt improve anything, then no need to
  program it.
 
  Yes. IMHO it is important. Prefetching has never worked well on new nodes, 
  and doesn't solve the connection limit problem anyway. Also the 
  infrastructure will be interesting as later on we may want notifications on 
  loaded pages (e.g. there is a more recent version of this page available, 
  but maybe also critical node events).
 
  Feel free to make a very basic implementation where you either have the 
  loaded image or you have a loading graphic with no indication of how far it 
  has got. *Ideally* we'd have the loading images be dependant on how far the 
  request has got, but this isn't essential, certainly not for a first 
  approximation ... another interesting option would be to show a progress 
  bar showing the overall progress, ETA, etc. One thing that *is* critical is 
  that we stop loading the images if the user closes the page, but afaics the 
  existing infrastructure will do that.
 
  On Wed, Jun 17, 2009 at 5:44 PM, sasheegsas...@gmail.com wrote:
   Ok, thats true. But the browser won't show an image till all the image
   above are shown, because it uses 2-3 connections to fetch the images
   sequentially. It may happen that a few image that fetches very slowly
   will hang all the others, even if they are completely present.
  
   sashee
  
   On Wed, Jun 17, 2009 at 4:46 PM, Daniel Chengj16sdiz+free...@gmail.com 
   wrote:
   On 17/6/2009 22:36, sashee wrote:
    this way freenet don't start all the
   fetching, just what is requested... When the page loads, freenet
     start fetching all the images,
  
   Did you look at your /config/fproxy page ?
   There is an option called Enable prefetching of inline images ..
  
   What you think?
  
   :)
 
  ___
  Devl mailing list
  Devl@freenetproject.org
  http://emu.freenetproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/devl
 
 ___
 Devl mailing list
 Devl@freenetproject.org
 http://emu.freenetproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/devl
 
 




signature.asc
Description: This is a digitally signed message part.
___
Devl mailing list
Devl@freenetproject.org
http://emu.freenetproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/devl