Re: OT: Behaviour of Experienced Programmers Towards Newcomers
On Saturday, 17 March 2018 at 06:46:17 UTC, Uknown wrote: https://opensource.com/article/18/3/avoid-humiliating-newcomers Its a blog post about how sometimes expert programmers treat newcomers badly. I haven't really noticed any of what he mentions in the D community, as most of the regular members are very polite and friendly, but I thought it was an important read nonetheless. Most assholes in programming forums are intermediate level, and young. They've got enough experience to overvalue their own opinion, and they are young enough that they get offended easily when someone disagrees with them.
alias this constructor
struct Foo
{
int x;
alias x this;
}
Foo f = 12; // error
Foo foo;
f = 12; // this is OK
any reason why the first cant be allowed?
Re: A strategic vision for D
On Wednesday, 2 May 2018 at 04:48:46 UTC, Joakim wrote: On Wednesday, 2 May 2018 at 03:44:37 UTC, Nick Sabalausky (Abscissa) wrote: On 05/01/2018 10:27 PM, Joakim wrote: Yes, but how is it decided what the "most important things" are? There is a strategy at work for any prioritization, even if it's implicit and never even articulated in their own minds. If unarticulated, you can gain a lot by spending time to articulate it, as you may find unwanted contradictions in the way you had been prioritizing. I'm sure Walter and Andrei would love to have the newsgroup micromanaging their decision making process.
Re: Sealed classes - would you want them in D?
On Wednesday, 16 May 2018 at 08:20:23 UTC, Uknown wrote: On Wednesday, 16 May 2018 at 07:53:36 UTC, aliak wrote: Just checked the rust spec [0]. private in rust => accessible from that module and its descendants, which is what package in D is. private in D would be to that module only. [0]: https://doc.rust-lang.org/beta/reference/visibility-and-privacy.html Dont know if its been mentioned before but in Delphi / Object Pascal private is accessible to everything in the same module. Same as D.
Re: Sealed classes - would you want them in D?
On Wednesday, 16 May 2018 at 16:43:31 UTC, Walter Bright wrote: On 5/16/2018 6:55 AM, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote: On 05/16/2018 04:42 AM, Dave Jones wrote: On Wednesday, 16 May 2018 at 08:20:23 UTC, Uknown wrote: On Wednesday, 16 May 2018 at 07:53:36 UTC, aliak wrote: Just checked the rust spec [0]. private in rust => accessible from that module and its descendants, which is what package in D is. private in D would be to that module only. [0]: https://doc.rust-lang.org/beta/reference/visibility-and-privacy.html Dont know if its been mentioned before but in Delphi / Object Pascal private is accessible to everything in the same module. Same as D. This is interesting, thanks for the info. I had no idea. It's either parallel gestation of a great idea, or they took it from D! Not sure of the exact timing but we're talking at least 17 years ago i think.
Re: Sealed classes - would you want them in D? (v2)
On Friday, 18 May 2018 at 02:08:47 UTC, KingJoffrey wrote: On Thursday, 17 May 2018 at 14:14:28 UTC, Steven Schveighoffer wrote: You're welcome to write a DIP, but I don't see a very good chance for acceptance given the discussions on this subject. -Steve I agree. The D community is too small, and insufficiently diverse to discuss this any further. It's funny how we build programming languages to serve us, but we end up serving them. FFS you're so dramatic. First the world is ending because private doesnt work as you expected. Then D is utterly useless without the changes you want. Now we live in some dystopian nightmare where we are all slaves to the Dlang spec. Listen up dude, people here have been using D as it is, are happy with how it works, and even prefer how it works. They have done so for months or years. That is a big bar for you to get over, they have years of experience with D working for them. Coming in and saying "ooh but thats wrong, your doing it wrong.. because OOP... etc..." waving your arms, making hyperbolic statements about how its the end of the world etc... wont win any arguments. You cant convince people of what you say if all you do is give them an ideological*** argument that is counter to their years of experience. That's just the way it is, it's actually better that way, because otherwise people would be swayed by every passing preacher and everything would be in a right mess. ***Your argument is ideological because you dont provide any evidence for it. This has been pointed out and yet you still dont seem grasp it. Saying "this is what you need to do and this is why it will benefit" is not evidence, it is a statement of belief. Please understand I am not saying what you want is right or wrong, I'm saying you dont understand why people aren't won over by what you say.
Re: Sealed classes - would you want them in D? (v2)
On Friday, 18 May 2018 at 11:41:33 UTC, KingJoffrey wrote: On Friday, 18 May 2018 at 09:07:57 UTC, Dave Jones wrote: FFS you're so dramatic. First the world is ending because private doesnt work as you expected. Then D is utterly useless without the changes you want. Now we live in some dystopian nightmare where we are all slaves to the Dlang spec. [..dadadadada...] Thanks Dave. You're welcome Joffers. You make my case (i.e. The D community is too small, and insufficiently diverse to discuss this any further.) You just reinforce the case that you have a tendency to drama and hyperbole. Except, that I'd add to that, that far too many are pretty immature too. I'd rather be pretty and immature than young and stupid. Good luck with your dlang thing...18+ years old and still < 1000 programmers (perhaps a lot less). (and if you have more than one class in a file, you have no more encapsulation - I love it). Oh here we go again... if people don't genuflect to Joffer's kingly wisdom he storms out like a pouty little tyrant muttering "good luck with your crappy language.. hhmmmppff idiots"
Re: Sealed classes - would you want them in D? (v2)
On Friday, 18 May 2018 at 15:40:52 UTC, KingJoffrey wrote: On Friday, 18 May 2018 at 14:32:33 UTC, bachmeier wrote: It will attract more programmers, not less - and trust me, D better get more programmers using it, cause 18 years on, and it hasn't got that far, really. "Ohh Arya you will never be a lady if you keep walking around in your underclothes, even if it is just inside our chambers. You'll never have any friends or be popular, no one will ask you to the ball. You'll never be a lady." Ohh the drama...
Re: Sealed classes - would you want them in D? (v2)
On Friday, 18 May 2018 at 18:12:55 UTC, Chris M. wrote: On Friday, 18 May 2018 at 17:59:04 UTC, Dave Jones wrote: On Friday, 18 May 2018 at 15:40:52 UTC, KingJoffrey wrote: On Friday, 18 May 2018 at 14:32:33 UTC, bachmeier wrote: It will attract more programmers, not less - and trust me, D better get more programmers using it, cause 18 years on, and it hasn't got that far, really. "Ohh Arya you will never be a lady if you keep walking around in your underclothes, even if it is just inside our chambers. You'll never have any friends or be popular, no one will ask you to the ball. You'll never be a lady." Ohh the drama... Let's just stop this part of the convo since it's clearly not going to bring us anywhere So lets stop the pointless gentle mockery and concentrate solely on the pointless. Sounds like a plan!
Re: Sealed classes - would you want them in D? (v2)
On Sunday, 20 May 2018 at 02:45:25 UTC, KingJoffrey wrote: On Saturday, 19 May 2018 at 17:38:48 UTC, Gheorghe Gabriel wrote: But in D, everything is your friend - you don't get to manage You want to be taken seriously and yet you repeat false statements over and over again. There is absolutely no reason why D cannot have both (the current way D does it, and the C++ way). It's obviously technically possible. Being technically possible or even easy to implement is not an argument for including something. It's obvious it would attract a great deal more programmers to D. Pure conjecture. You don't know why people choose not to use D, you know why you choose not to use it. Assuming your opinion is shared by all these supposed people is at best naive at worst an indication of narcissism. I'll assume for now that you are young, idealistic and naive. It doesn't really complicate the language at all - that's just an excuse not to change. And, it's obvious, that protecting the interface would result in better quality software. It's a core fundamental principle of quality software. It's just a matter of getting more diverse people into the D 'community'. Yes because if a group of people don't accept your argument about something obviously there is something wrong with them. OK it's starting to look more like narcissism. But I get the feeling that's not what most D people want. The status quo is pretty comfortable for many, it seems. No shit... you're just getting that feeling now? You remind me of my teenage son, it takes about 100 times of telling him something before it sticks in his head. Let me ask you this... How do you get comfortable with something? By using it, trying it, and finding that it works. You don't get comfortable with having a stone in your shoe, so if this feature was the nightmare you say it is all these people using D wouldn't be OK with it. But again it's utterly pointless because you cannot grasp that. You are unable to even consider that something "other" might work. You are a zealot in that respect, that's why you exaggerate, misrepresent the other side of the argument, predict doom for the heathens, and never budge on your position. Anyway... feel free to misrepresent what I've said, engage in hyperbole, snip the parts you cant argue with, speak for all the people who chose not to use D, tell D it's doomed if they don't do what you say, it'll never be popular, that it's all idiotic. Etc...
Re: Sealed classes - would you want them in D? (v2)
On Monday, 21 May 2018 at 03:19:34 UTC, KingJoffrey wrote: On Sunday, 20 May 2018 at 11:19:01 UTC, Dave Jones wrote: On Sunday, 20 May 2018 at 02:45:25 UTC, KingJoffrey wrote: On Saturday, 19 May 2018 at 17:38:48 UTC, Gheorghe Gabriel wrote: Anyway... feel free to misrepresent what I've said, engage in hyperbole, snip the parts you cant argue with, speak for all the people who chose not to use D, tell D it's doomed if they don't do what you say, it'll never be popular, that it's all idiotic. Etc... Come on Dave. 18+ years, and still less than 1000 programmers. Do you have a citation for that? I have no idea how many users there are tbh. As I've said, I can have more that one class in a file in a variety of different mainstream languages, which represent about 20 million developers, and still have the compiler protect that interface from abuse, including accidental misuse. Delphi had the exact same thing and was probably the second largest IDE/Development platform on Windows for a very long time. The idea that it is a make or break feature is a figment of your imagination. You cannot get this in D, and yet 20 million developers have had this for decades. 20 million developers have had the friend feature for decades, it didn't stop Java becoming huge without it. The point is you constantly make logical fallacies of that sort... A has feature B and A is popular so it follows that to be popular you must implement B. And if I was taking your tone and attitude in pointing this out I would call that idiotic and by implication would be calling you an idiot. I'm not by the way, I'm being mature for once :) and just pointing it out without labelling you. When they come over to D, their' told, stuff you, we don't do it that way in D, and btw, we don't care about your ideas on how we could easily get D to do it both ways. We prefer our own way, so you get stuffed. Many people have engaged with you on your ideas. But lets be honest why should they care about your ideas when you clearly dont care about what they are saying? You have your position that "private means private" and that is the end of it. Nothing anyone can say will change your mind about that. That's why it's pointless, why talking to you is pointless. And you quickly resort to being derogatory when you dont get your own way, for example "LOL less than 1000 users after 15 years". Stuff like that. And you want to be taken seriously? BTW this is a user newsgroup it's not the steering group or the boardroom. Why on earth would you think you can change the direction of the language by shouting loudly in the local boozer? That's kind of what I've hearing from the D community. People pointing out flaws in your argument, saying this is what you have to do to get your ideas accepted and these are the kind of issues you will have to overcome, is not telling you to get stuffed. The problem is you dont seem to handle people disagreeing with you very well, you take it personally, that's why you resort to hyperbole and misrepresenting their position. You react emotionally instead of calm honest assessment of the facts. If people say "but D works for me, I like this feature" you say it's idiotic and a sign of small language mentality. Of course, that kind of attitude can only invite the same attitude back to the D community. Go back and read over both threads, people weren't rude to you. They basically said "huh works for me" and "takes a lot to get a change accepted". Let's hope you truly don't represent the D community, cause then my comments are not hyperbole, they are fact. I have very little to do with anything here tbh, i just tinker in D, dont have time for much more than that.
Re: Sealed classes - would you want them in D? (v2)
On Monday, 21 May 2018 at 09:56:22 UTC, KingJoffrey wrote: On Monday, 21 May 2018 at 09:16:42 UTC, Dave Jones wrote: da dah dah da dah dah dahh da d .. . ... da dah.. ..da.. da ...dadada.da...dada. Thanks Dave. Your contributions to the discussion have been really insightful, and most valuable. I'm sure we can all learn from your great wisdom. Now, for the benefit of those who haven't followed these discussions, so that you too can benefit from Dave's keen insight, I'll sum up Daves' stupendous contribution like this: "Ours is not to reason why; Ours is but to do or die," Thanks again Dave. And yet again when he cant argue the point he sticks his fingers in his ears and starts shouting "la la la I cant hear you" like a spoilt little child. Well done Joffers.
Re: Sealed classes - would you want them in D? (v2)
On Monday, 21 May 2018 at 14:54:57 UTC, KingJoffrey wrote: On Monday, 21 May 2018 at 14:46:40 UTC, Sjoerd Nijboer wrote: Also, I would verry much much like it if you would not resort to comparing me to "one of those facebook employees." It's just setting a mood for the conversation which no one likes, regardless what anyone thinks about facebook employees. people are so touchy here You want to have your cake and eat it, you want to be immature and label and denigrate people but you also want to be taken seriously. But you're too far up your own class to see it.
Re: Sealed classes - would you want them in D? (v2)
On Monday, 21 May 2018 at 16:35:57 UTC, rikki cattermole wrote: Please stop replying Dave, it isn't worth it. Do something more productive with your time :) I know, but... it helps me relax. ;-)
Re: Sealed classes - would you want them in D? (v2)
On Tuesday, 22 May 2018 at 13:33:12 UTC, 12345swordy wrote: On Tuesday, 22 May 2018 at 03:10:39 UTC, Bjarne Stroustrup wrote: Any debate about restoring the rights and autonomy of the class, should not be killed off. Any programming language that discriminates against the class, encourages class warfare, does not deserve to be called a programming langauge. Knock it off with the hyperbole language already, this is a programming language not a civil rights movement. The guy is unstable and has gone careening off since I kicked his soapbox... i mean his argument to pieces.
Re: Remember the Vasa! by Bjarne Stroustrup
On Tuesday, 29 May 2018 at 21:06:52 UTC, Jonathan M Davis wrote: On Wednesday, May 30, 2018 08:43:33 rikki cattermole via Digitalmars-d wrote: On 30/05/2018 8:37 AM, Tony wrote: > On Tuesday, 29 May 2018 at 20:19:09 UTC, bachmeier wrote: >> I don't think it's difficult to do that yourself. There's >> no need to have a formal split. One example is that it's >> really nice to have the GC available for part of the >> program and avoid it for another part. @nogc gives you a >> guarantee. Different variants of the language are a special >> case of this that is equivalent to annotating the entire >> program to restrict behavior. That's rarely desirable. > > What would be an example of a type of application (or maybe > that should be "which type of domain" or "which type of > developer") where you would want part of it to do garbage > collection and the rest of it do not do garbage collection? GUI's, audio systems, language tooling, games, I'm sure somebody can come up with a much more longer list. Basically, stuff that can't afford to have the GC pause the program for more than a millisecond or two has to be careful with the GC, but your average program is going to be perfectly fine with it, and in many cases, it's just part of the program that can't afford the pause - e.g. a thread for an audio or video pipeline. The rest of the program can likely afford it just fine, but that thread or group of threads has to be at least close to realtime, so it can't use the GC. You cant call any code that might take a lock if you're doing real time audio, so that means no malloc/free either. That's standard practice. You either allocate everything up front or you do something like I do which is lock free queues ferrying things to and from the audio thread as needed. I mean the point is needing different memory management for different parts of the program is already a thing with real time audio, GC doesnt really change that.
Re: Remember the Vasa! by Bjarne Stroustrup
On Tuesday, 29 May 2018 at 05:29:00 UTC, Ali wrote: On Tuesday, 29 May 2018 at 03:56:05 UTC, Dmitry Olshansky wrote: It seems C++ is following the road of PL/I, which is growing language way beyond the point anyone can understand or implement all of it. A key line from this paper We now have about 150 cooks; that’s not a good way to get a tasty and balanced meal. I don't think Bjarne is against adding feature to C++, or even constantly adding feature he even admits to support some of the features he mention in his list I think he is worried about 1. the huge number of features being targeted at once 2. the features coming from different independent teams, making them less likely to be coherent Which is ironic considering... Ken Thomson : " Stroustrup campaigned for years and years and years, way beyond any sort of technical contributions he made to the language, to get it adopted and used. And he sort of ran all the standards committees with a whip and a chair. And he said “no” to no one. He put every feature in that language that ever existed. It wasn’t cleanly designed—it was just the union of everything that came along. And I think it suffered drastically from that." Donald Knuth : "Whenever the C++ language designers had two competing ideas as to how they should solve some problem, they said "OK, we'll do them both". So the language is too baroque for my taste."
Re: Remember the Vasa! by Bjarne Stroustrup
On Friday, 1 June 2018 at 23:10:30 UTC, Laeeth Isharc wrote: On Friday, 1 June 2018 at 18:18:17 UTC, Tony wrote: Yes, though you also can't compare a typical programmer from the D world with a typical guy from an enterprisey language world. That was an excellent post.
Re: Anyone can contact Dmitry Olshansky?
On Monday, 16 July 2018 at 16:20:24 UTC, Mr.Bingo wrote: On Tuesday, 3 July 2018 at 07:31:46 UTC, Nick Sabalausky (Abscissa) wrote: On 07/01/2018 05:34 AM, ag0aep6g wrote: On 07/01/2018 08:00 AM, Ali Çehreli wrote: Apparent from uncharacteristic messages from Dmitry's account to multiple destinations recently, I suspect his gmail account has been compromised. Could also be a psychotic episode or some such. The incoherent rambling doesn't seem to be just bad English. You've got stuff like "I can save the world" in there, which sounds more like mental illness than an imposter to me. If someone's going around as an imposter on a web forum, I'd say it's pretty clear that in and of itself indicates SOME form of mental illness, even if the illness is something as basic and simple as "idiot" and "jackass". We already know we've had a problem with a puppet whackjob here lately. Occam's Razor suggests it's likely just more of the same nut. Over-analysing unlikely scenarios is only going to encourage more. It's also known that mental illness readily stems from paranoia and believing others are mentally ill and out to get them in some way shape or fashion. Its known by who? By armchair psychologists? Paranoia is a symptom of mental illness not a cause in itself. And paranoid delusions vary from person to person, they dont generally think other people are mentally ill. Probably comes from primitive circuitry that hasn't yet been eliminated evolution wise(after all, modern societies have only existed for a few hundred years... lot's have changed but the brain has yet to evolve to handle those changes). There are many causes, genetic, environmental, gut bacteria, autoimmune disease. There's cases of people who have had their gut bacteria replaced to deal with other health issues who have suddenly been cured of their OCD for example. A lot of gut bacteria consume or produce neurotransmitters for example. Brain inflammation is another cause, a big area of research at the moment. The point is most of these causes are not down to prehistoric brain circuits, it's genuinely other causes. Or a mix of all these things together. You are vastly over simplifying a very complex issue. Also there's no way we can know how much of a modern problem it is because we've only seen mental illness as an illness for a couple of hundred years. So we have no idea whether it is more prevalent now that it was a thousand years ago. After all, I'd say that a society that has developed weapons that can only be used to destroy itself requires a massive amount of mental illness... of course, they disagree, so maybe mental illness is actually relative. It's known quite well that most people who work in the mental illness sector are also mentally ill themselves(I guess it's hard not to go crazy when everyone else is). The idea that "crazy" is catching is idiotic, sorry.
Re: Anyone can contact Dmitry Olshansky?
On Tuesday, 17 July 2018 at 17:47:57 UTC, Mr.Bingo wrote: On Tuesday, 17 July 2018 at 09:08:03 UTC, Dave Jones wrote: On Monday, 16 July 2018 at 16:20:24 UTC, Mr.Bingo wrote: On Tuesday, 3 July 2018 at 07:31:46 UTC, Nick Sabalausky I see we have the resident genius on hand. Yes, anything that doesn't fit within your narrow understanding of science is idiotic. I would get in to it with you but I really do have better things to do then try to educate you on what real science is and what we really know about all the problems that we think we know so much about. Just keep in mind, second hand knowledge of science may be useful but it does not mean you understand science, it's purpose, or how it relates in the big picture. I critiqued what you actually said, you make vague jumbled assertions about my understanding of science. If you cant attack the argument attack the man. *shrug* BTW, using your logic cults must be created by the cultists all having the same food diet. Yes, I know you will say that is not what you said because there are other factors like vitamin deficiencies(certain combinations, like some chemical ratios, of vitamin deficiencies creates cults). I said gut bacteria is one of many causes. I did not say it was the cause of all mental illness. Do try and keep up. In fact, if you think a cult member is crazy then you also have to scientifically find some correlation between all them and diet. You should have no problem with your gifted scientific abilities to prove that! Just go collect the data, genius! (again, you will say it is not about vitamins because vitamins are basically related to food so that was already addressed in the first case and it is really some other thing...) Strawman. Logical fallacy. And just plain stupid. But, I see you have lived with a bunch of crazy people your entire life... Too bad you haven't learned about relativity... or psychology. LMAO that has got to be the most retarded thing anyone has ever said to me in my entire life. How old are you? (BTW it's a trick question)
Re: C's Biggest Mistake on Hacker News
On Monday, 23 July 2018 at 22:45:15 UTC, Walter Bright wrote: On 7/23/2018 5:39 AM, Joakim wrote: In my experience, people never learn, even from the blatantly obvious, _particularly_ when they're invested in the outdated. What inevitably happens is the new tech gets good enough to put them out of business, then they finally pick it up or retire. Until most system software is written in D/Go/Rust/Swift/Zig/etc., they will keep mouthing platitudes about how C is here to stay. I've predicted before that what will kill C is managers and customers requiring memory safety because unsafeness costs them millions. The "just hire better programmers" will never work. My son broke the handle of a jug a few days ago and spent about 10 minutes arguing with me about how it wasn't really broken you just had to hold it differently. "C" you just need to hold it differently.
Re: [OT] Leverage Points
On Sunday, 19 August 2018 at 19:11:03 UTC, Mike Parker wrote: On Sunday, 19 August 2018 at 18:49:53 UTC, Joakim wrote: they got their team trained up on D. We could stand to talk more about Sociomantic, D's biggest corporate success so far, I'll put out an email to Don. I've got a series on Sociomantic in the works for the blog. What you need a blog post saying the GC has been made 4x faster. Stuff like that, hey we made D much better now, not stuff about some corporate user who does targeted advertising. I'm not saying stuff like that isnt valuable, just that it's not gonna crank the faucet very much compared with stuff like "The D xml parser smokes the competition" It would also help dispel the impression that D is kindof stagnant.
Re: [OT] Leverage Points
On Sunday, 19 August 2018 at 21:59:15 UTC, Guillaume Piolat wrote: On Sunday, 19 August 2018 at 19:52:44 UTC, Dave Jones wrote: I'm of the complete opposite opinion. Everyone like to make money, especially more than the industry average; and we should push the narrative that using D lets you print money in unsuspecting markets (and that's really not far from the truth). That's a hard argument to make. I mean it's a good selling point but how do you convince people that D actually does what you say it does? In Reddit recently there was than comment: https://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/97q9sq/why_d_is_a_good_choice_for_writing_a_language/e4ce7kx Who wants to be the competitor getting crushed by the competition because of not using a nimbler, faster language to develop in?* Yet that sort of thing happens a hell of a lot in practice. Constant factors matters a lot when you work on high-performance software, if you can develope 30% faster for the same result then it's a huge competitive advantage. Yeah of course, but we're talking about blog posts, press releases, what will get people to even bother clicking on the posts to actually read them. Of course productivity is a big sell, but i think it's also important to be seen to be making progress on the language and ecosystem. And you're talking about getting non D users to click. It's not just about whats important it's about what will make people take notice. I think that doesn't really move the needle, every native programmer knows that native languages are approximately as fast and that the fastest program had more engineering hours in it. It is _possible_ to have the faster program in any (native) language, now _how long_ will it take? However if you can have something more featureful with less effort that doesn't run slower then it's appealing. Benchmarks where development time is missing just tell half the story. I didn't mean to say that runtime performance is all that's important although I completely understand why it looked like that. What I'm trying to say is that to generate interest the posts or articles have to have a bit of a bang. Either show real progress, or real advantage.
Re: [OT] Leverage Points
On Monday, 20 August 2018 at 03:04:30 UTC, Mike Parker wrote: On Sunday, 19 August 2018 at 19:52:44 UTC, Dave Jones wrote: What you need a blog post saying the GC has been made 4x faster. Stuff like that, hey we made D much better now, not stuff about some corporate user who does targeted advertising. If you look through the blog, you'll find posts like that. One of the most-viewed is titled, 'Find Was Too Damn Slow, So We Fixed It' [1]. There are a variety of posts that we've published. I started the series on Funkwerk last year because we needed more posts about D being used in production. Im not trying to be negative but if Nim or Rust released a blog post saying "We made find faster" is it going to get you to try them out? Is it enough of an enticement to get over you preconceptions about those languages and to think maybe they are worth a try? That's what Im trying to say. Im sure posts like that are popular within the D community but they are not going to make much headway bringing new users in. But the extension of that is that you need to have something enticing to write about and there seems to be very little happening at the moment. DPP is probably the most interesting thing happening atm.
Re: D is dead (was: Dicebot on leaving D: It is anarchy driven development in all its glory.)
On Friday, 24 August 2018 at 04:50:34 UTC, Mike Franklin wrote: On Friday, 24 August 2018 at 04:12:42 UTC, Jonathan M Davis wrote: It's not a problem for Phobos to depend on the C standard library. My goals have to do with making D, the language, freestanding (a.k.a nimble-D). If the poster feature for D in the upcoming years is memory safety then how can Walter seriously consider continued dependency on libc?
Re: Dicebot on leaving D: It is anarchy driven development in all its glory.
On Saturday, 25 August 2018 at 12:16:06 UTC, Laeeth Isharc wrote: On Saturday, 25 August 2018 at 10:52:04 UTC, Chris wrote: On Friday, 24 August 2018 at 19:26:40 UTC, Walter Bright wrote: There are quite a few different sorts of concerns raised on this thread and they are linked by how people feel not by logic. I have a lot of respect for Shachar technically but I personally found the way he expressed his point of view a bit odd and unlikely to be effective in achieving whatever it is his goal was, also bearing in mind he doesn't speak for Weka. It might be helpful to go through the concerns and organise them based on logical ordering because an outburst of emotion won't translate in itself into any kind of solution. You can approach things rationally, make a list of the issues, have a big discussion again. and nothing will change.
Re: Dicebot on leaving D: It is anarchy driven development in all its glory.
On Wednesday, 29 August 2018 at 18:02:16 UTC, Timon Gehr wrote: On 29.08.2018 19:15, H. S. Teoh wrote: On Wed, Aug 29, 2018 at 06:58:16PM +0200, Timon Gehr via Digitalmars-d wrote: On 28.08.2018 19:02, H. S. Teoh wrote: On Tue, Aug 28, 2018 at 08:18:57AM +, Eugene Wissner via Digitalmars-d wrote: Currently, immutable implicitly converts to const. If const is allowed to be overridden, then you could violate immutable, which is UB. ... __mutable fields are __mutable also in the immutable instance. You might get into trouble with shared if you are not careful because of the unfortunate "implicit shared" semantics of immutable, but it is up to the programmer to get this right. So you cant cast away const but you can specify a field stays mutable even if the aggregate is const or immutable?
Re: Mobile is the new PC and AArch64 is the new x64
On Thursday, 13 September 2018 at 22:56:31 UTC, Joakim wrote: On Thursday, 13 September 2018 at 22:41:08 UTC, Nick Sabalausky (Abscissa) wrote: On 09/10/2018 11:13 PM, tide wrote: On Monday, 10 September 2018 at 13:43:46 UTC, Joakim wrote: That's why PC sales keep dropping while mobile sales are now 6-7X that per year: This shouldn't be misunderstood as such, which I think you as misunderstanding it. The reason mobile sales are so high is because of planned obsolescence and the walled garden that these devices are built around. I've gone through maybe 3-4 phones in the time that I've had my Desktop, and I use my desktop every single day. I don't need to buy a new one cause it runs perfectly fine, there aren't operating system updates that purposely cause the CPU to run slower to "save battery life" when a new device and OS come out. That's not to say it isn't insignificant but the sales numbers are exacerbated. Right. Basically, "sales stats" should never be misconstrued as "usage stats". The usage stats are similarly overwhelming, two-thirds of digital time is spent on mobile, more for the young: Yeah but 90% of the time people spend on mobile is just dicking about. Sending IMs, facebook, point and click games. And thats a huge part of the usage stats, people can now spend more time online wasting time in more situations than ever before. PCs are generally seen a tool to accomplish tasks, for word processing or a high end gaming thing, audio / video editing, mobile is more entertainment. Not many people are doing what you are by using your mobile as a desktop. I'm not saying that makes mobile worthless, what I'm saying is that your hypothesis is like saying TV has taken over from typewriters.
Re: Mobile is the new PC and AArch64 is the new x64
On Saturday, 15 September 2018 at 15:25:55 UTC, Joakim wrote: On Friday, 14 September 2018 at 09:23:24 UTC, Dave Jones wrote: On Thursday, 13 September 2018 at 22:56:31 UTC, Joakim wrote: On Thursday, 13 September 2018 at 22:41:08 UTC, Nick And people don't use PCs for such things? ;) Sure, but they use them for a bunch of other stuff too. My point was that mobile growth has been in the "such things" but barely made a dent in the other stuff. So when you see 30% pc screen time and 70% mobile, its not a 70% drop in actual time spent in front of a PC. It's more a massive growth in time on mobile doing mostly banal pointless crap. I know a lot of people who did, which explains the 28% drop in PC sales since they peaked in 2011, the year after the iPad came out. Many of those people who used to buy PCs have switched to tablets and other mobile devices. Yet PC sales are up this year, mobile is down, and tablet sales have fallen for 3 years in a row. More like when computers first started replacing typewriters, I'm sure many laughed at that possibility back then too. :) Im not laughing at the idea of mobile eating into desktop PC share. What Im saying is that it hasnt done so as much as you think. And just because there's been a trend for 5 or 6 years doesnt mean it will continue so inevitably. I actually think most people would prefer a separate desktop and mobile device, whether that desktop is just the size of pack of cigarettes, or a big box with 5 fans in it. You've probably heard of the possibly apocryphal story of how Blackberry and Nokia engineers disassembled the first iPhone and dismissed it because it only got a day of battery life, while their devices lasted much longer. They thought the mainstream market would care about such battery life as much as their early adopters, but they were wrong. But here's a better story for this occasion, Ken Olsen, the head of DEC who built the minicomputers on which Walter got his start, is supposed to have disassembled the first IBM PC and this was his reaction: "Ken Olsen bought one of the first IBM PCs and disassembled it on a table in Olsen’s office. 'He was amazed at the crappy power supply,' Avram said, 'that it was so puny. Olsen thought that if IBM used such poor engineering then Digital didn’t have anything to worry about.' Clearly Olsen was wrong." https://www.cringely.com/2011/02/09/ken-olsen-and-post-industrial-computing/ You're making the same mistake as him. It _doesn't matter_ what people first use the new tool for, what matters is what it _can_ be used for, particularly over time. That time is now, as top and mid-range smartphone chips now rival mid-to low-end PC CPUs, which is the majority of the market. The x86/x64 PC's days are numbered, just as it once killed off the minicomputer decades ago. Yes you can bring up examples of people who made mistakes predicting the future but that works both ways. You're just as guilty of seeing a two points and drawing a straight line though them.
Re: Mobile is the new PC and AArch64 is the new x64
On Sunday, 16 September 2018 at 04:47:11 UTC, Joakim wrote: On Sunday, 16 September 2018 at 01:03:27 UTC, Dave Jones wrote: I know a lot of people who did, which explains the 28% drop in PC sales since they peaked in 2011, the year after the iPad came out. Many of those people who used to buy PCs have switched to tablets and other mobile devices. Yet PC sales are up this year, mobile is down, and tablet sales have fallen for 3 years in a row. Eh, these are all mostly mature markets now, so slight quarterly dips or gains don't matter much anymore. What does it matter that PC sales were up 2-3% last quarter when 7 times as many smartphones and mobile devices were sold in that same quarter? Some analysts have predicted that PC sales will plateau at some point and if that's where we're at now then 30% drop in shipments is not death of the market. I say that almost 30% drop in PC sales over the last 7 years is mostly due to the rise of mobile. I think a large part of it is that PCs got fast enough for most people about 7-10 years ago. So it was a combination of mobile, and people no longer needing to get newer faster machines. The upgrade cycle moved from "I need a newer faster computer" to "I'll wait till my current system is worn out". (For a lot of people anyway) And just because there's been a trend for 5 or 6 years doesnt mean it will continue so inevitably. Sure, but these trends almost never reverse. ;) It doesnt need to reverse for "the PC is dead" to be false. I actually think most people would prefer a separate desktop and mobile device, whether that desktop is just the size of pack of cigarettes, or a big box with 5 fans in it. Why? Given how price-sensitive the vast majority of the computing-buying public is- that excludes the Apple sheeple who actually seem to get a hard-on from rising iPhone prices, all the better for them to show how much money they've lucked into by brandishing their "gold" iPhone ;) - I don't see most willing to spend twice on two devices, that could be replaced by just one. Until recently, they didn't have a choice, as you couldn't use your mobile device as a desktop, but the just-released devices I linked in the first post in this thread are starting to change that. Because for about £300 you can get an intel NUC system with 120GB SSD, which is more powerful and more upgradeable than your £700 mobile device. And some people still want that. And because most people have more than one TV, some have multiple phones, phones and tablets, and desktops, and multiple games consoles. And they still use them all in different situations. This "one device" thing is your preference and you're projecting it onto everyone else. Yes you can bring up examples of people who made mistakes predicting the future but that works both ways. You're just as guilty of seeing a two points and drawing a straight line though them. Except none of these examples or my own prediction are based on simple extrapolation between data points. Rather, we're analyzing the underlying technical details and capabilities and coming to different conclusions about whether the status quo is likely to remain. So I don't think any of us are "guilty" of your charge. Of course you are, you're making predictions and assuming the trends will continue, you assume the technical details are all important. Im saying they are only part of it, that people have requirements / preferences outside of how powerful the device is. Lots of people were predicting ebooks would kill the real book market a few years back, turns out people still prefer to have an actual paper book to read, ebooks peaked a few years ago and real books have been in growth ever since. That was people seeing a trend and assuming it would continue just like you are.
Re: Mobile is the new PC and AArch64 is the new x64
On Sunday, 16 September 2018 at 15:11:42 UTC, Joakim wrote: On Sunday, 16 September 2018 at 10:25:30 UTC, Dave Jones wrote: Some analysts have predicted that PC sales will plateau at some point and if that's where we're at now then 30% drop in shipments is not death of the market. I see no reason why they would plateau, looks like wishful thinking to me. Might be, but so is trying to convince everyone your predictions are correct so they will focus their work on the issues important to you. I think a large part of it is that PCs got fast enough for most people about 7-10 years ago. So it was a combination of mobile, and people no longer needing to get newer faster machines. The upgrade cycle moved from "I need a newer faster computer" to "I'll wait till my current system is worn out". (For a lot of people anyway) Sure, that's part of it, but that suggests that once smartphones reach that performance threshold, they will replace PCs altogether. I think we've reached that threshold now. If it was just about performance, but it's not. And just because there's been a trend for 5 or 6 years doesnt mean it will continue so inevitably. Sure, but these trends almost never reverse. ;) It doesnt need to reverse for "the PC is dead" to be false. Plateaus almost never happen, it's not the natural order of things. OK the market stabilises. Because for about £300 you can get an intel NUC system with 120GB SSD, which is more powerful and more upgradeable than your £700 mobile device. And some people still want that. And because most people have more than one TV, some have multiple phones, phones and tablets, and desktops, and multiple games consoles. And they still use them all in different situations. That's more on the high end, where people use many devices. On the low- to mid-end of the market, where most of the sales happen, people are happy to buy fewer devices that get the job done. Most households have more devices than ever before, and hardware is only getting cheaper. The idea that people will have to choose just one device is plainly wrong. I find it strange that you think the PC won't also be rolled up by mobile like this. Can you put a 3GB hard drive in your phone? Or a high end graphics card? Or a soundcard with balanced outputs? Yes you can bring up examples of people who made mistakes predicting the future but that works both ways. You're just as guilty of seeing a two points and drawing a straight line though them. Except none of these examples or my own prediction are based on simple extrapolation between data points. Rather, we're analyzing the underlying technical details and capabilities and coming to different conclusions about whether the status quo is likely to remain. So I don't think any of us are "guilty" of your charge. Of course you are, you're making predictions and assuming the trends will continue, you assume the technical details are all important. Im saying they are only part of it, that people have requirements / preferences outside of how powerful the device is. Lots of people were predicting ebooks would kill the real book market a few years back, turns out people still prefer to have an actual paper book to read, ebooks peaked a few years ago and real books have been in growth ever since. That was people seeing a trend and assuming it would continue just like you are. No, print is pretty much dead, it's just hard to track because so many ebooks have gone indie now: https://www.geekwire.com/2018/traditional-publishers-ebook-sales-drop-indie-authors-amazon-take-off/ What are these magical "requirements/preferences" that you cannot name, that you believe will keep print alive? That will be really funny. :) You obviously didn't research thoroughly enough, the site that was the source for the geekwire article shows quite clearly that print books still outsell ebooks almost twice over. http://authorearnings.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/01/Slide29.jpg and yes that's with indie published books included. Another interesting thing from that report was the average price of indie ebooks was $2.95 http://authorearnings.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/01/Slide26.jpg So even selling ebooks for peanuts cant catch them up.
Re: Mobile is the new PC and AArch64 is the new x64
On Monday, 17 September 2018 at 15:47:14 UTC, Joakim wrote: On Sunday, 16 September 2018 at 15:41:41 UTC, tide wrote: On Sunday, 16 September 2018 at 15:11:42 UTC, Joakim wrote: I say that almost 30% drop in PC sales over the last 7 Might be, but so is trying to convince everyone your predictions are correct so they will focus their work on the issues important to you. Not at all, because if my predictions are correct, this language will disappear along with the PC platform it's built on. And I've never suggested anybody work on anything "important to [me]," my original post even stated that D may never do well on mobile. You are making your arguments to fit your desires. Plateaus almost never happen, it's not the natural order of things. OK the market stabilises. I don't see how you changing the word you used changes anything about the underlying phenomenon: that doesn't happen. You're seriously suggesting that markets never stabilise, say oil prices stay steady for a few years or some such? Most households have more devices than ever before, and hardware is only getting cheaper. The idea that people will have to choose just one device is plainly wrong. You need to get out in the world a bit more. The majority of smartphones these days are bought in emerging markets where _nobody in their home has ever owned a PC or used the internet_. I've talked to these working stiffs in developing markets, you clearly haven't. And what happens when the emerging markets mature? Do they still just cling on to one smart phone in the house? Or are they yearning for more technology? I find it strange that you think the PC won't also be rolled up by mobile like this. Can you put a 3GB hard drive in your phone? Why would I ever want to do this when I noted my phone has 128 GBs of space? ;) If you mean 3 _TB_, yes, I simply attach my slim 1 TB external drive and back up whatever I want over USB 3.0. So you're not averse to having some external hardware sat on your desk. Hmmm. Or a high end graphics card? Smartphones come with very powerful graphics cards these days, plenty powerful enough to drive lots of graphic loads. Not if you're into high end gaming. Or a soundcard with balanced outputs? Some phones come with high-end DACs and the like, or you could always attach something externally if you really needed to. There's no such thing as professional audio breakout box for android AFAIK. Up until a few years ago the problem was Android couldn't do low latency audio, I'm not sure if the situation has changed. http://authorearnings.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/01/Slide29.jpg And how does that contradict anything I said? It contradicts your statement... "print is pretty much dead" If you can make the argument that print is dead and ebooks booming when print still outsells ebooks in unit sales 2 to 1, and even more than that if you look at revenue then you need to see a shrink. :) ebooks have peaked while print keeps growing, whereas the article I linked and this guy's data show ebooks growing and print continuing to decline. You didnt read the article carefully enough. The growth is in "adult fiction", the market as a whole has fallen. I never said ebook sales had passed print yet, only linked to that article saying that it's hard to measure now but it's likely print is still declining, and that print is effectively dead, as it's only going to keep declining into irrelevance. So it's hard to measure but it's definitely going to die. LOL. and yes that's with indie published books included. Another interesting thing from that report was the average price of indie ebooks was $2.95 http://authorearnings.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/01/Slide26.jpg So even selling ebooks for peanuts cant catch them up. They aren't selling them for "peanuts," they've simply stripped out a bunch of legacy costs like paper, editors, publishers, and the like. The reason authors still prefer indie ebooks is they get more money per book even at that lower price, as the rest of the supply chain and distribution had squeezed them down to only 5-15% of the much higher print price. How much profit the author makes is irrelevant. The point is you can buy an ebook for an average of $2.95 or a print book for (uninformed guess) $8. And yet more people still choose the print book. And this is what even now you dont understand. People like real books, they like the feel of it the immediacy, the intimacy. They like their kindles too. It's not one or the other. I cant believe you dont understand that.
Re: Mobile is the new PC and AArch64 is the new x64
On Tuesday, 18 September 2018 at 07:53:31 UTC, Joakim wrote: On Monday, 17 September 2018 at 22:27:41 UTC, Neia Neutuladh wrote: You are making your arguments to fit your desires. I can't make head nor tails of this claim, you have a talent for vague non sequiturs. My arguments are based on data, the overwhelming sales numbers I linked. I have no idea what desires you think are involved, I suspect you don't either. :) Data and statistics are open to interpretation and you consistently interpret them to fit your desired direction. If oil production ever drops 30% because some workable substitute comes along, as has happened to PCs now, yes, there is no chance of stabilization. It will be a steady decline from there, as these trends have a kind of momentum. Only if the new product meets all the use cases of the old product. Again this is what you dont understand. So you're not averse to having some external hardware sat on your desk. Hmmm. My original post links to examples of using your smartphone connected to a keyboard and monitor or a laptop shell, so I'm not sure where you ever got the idea I was against "external hardware." If you're gonna have all that on your desk it's no stretch to think well i'll have computer on there too. Oh shit yeah I forgot we're only allowed one computer. Not if you're into high end gaming. The vast majority of PCs don't have cards capable of that either. For the few who want it, there will be specialized solutions, whether consoles or whatever. It's one of the many use cases that mobile doesnt meet. It's one of the areas where PC sales has been growing year on year. But of course that doesnt fit your wishful thinking scenario. Obviously people will ditch PCs for consoles, oh wait they said that 15 years ago, and now they are saying the opposite. There's no such thing as professional audio breakout box for android AFAIK. Up until a few years ago the problem was Android couldn't do low latency audio, I'm not sure if the situation has changed. If and when that becomes a market that actually matters, somebody will cater to it, just as google optimized the Android video stack for VR a couple years ago: It's not about it being a market that matters, it's a fact that the kind of processing power and hardware you need for digital audio workstation isnt met by mobile devices and likely never will be because it's like 3d rendering. People doing this stuff always want more cpu cycles, and more bandwidth and storage. It's not like browsing the web where it gets to a point where it's good enough, it's never good enough. http://authorearnings.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/01/Slide29.jpg And how does that contradict anything I said? It contradicts your statement... "print is pretty much dead" If you can make the argument that print is dead and ebooks booming when print still outsells ebooks in unit sales 2 to 1, and even more than that if you look at revenue then you need to see a shrink. :) Or I actually understand market dynamics, :) which it's now become clear that you don't. This print decline is never going to stop. And yet sales of print books have been up for each of the last three years. And you call that decline. ebooks have peaked while print keeps growing, whereas the article I linked and this guy's data show ebooks growing and print continuing to decline. You didnt read the article carefully enough. The growth is in "adult fiction", the market as a whole has fallen. It's funny how you keep making mistakes and then act as though I made them. The article notes that the indie ebook market has likely "taken off," more than making up for the slight drop in ebook sales from publishers. LOL, if i tried to say "PC sales are likely levelling out" you'd be all over it, oh wait you were. Hypocritical much. So the reason to look at the 4 to 1 ratio of ebook sales to print of adult fiction online is because it's a bellwether, as one of the largest market segments that's actually driven by consumers. You're cherry picking the one bit of data that fits your narrative and then making up some BS about it being a bellwether for the whole market. Tell you what you find me one reputable source that backs up your BS about adult fiction being a bellwether. It's not one or the other. I cant believe you dont understand that. Yes, yes, we all know how many people are still rocking VHS tapes, iPods, point-and-shoot cameras, etc., all the tech I've pointed out has basically died off. Because DVDs (and now streaming) did everything VHS did and more. Because phones can do everything an IPOD does and more. Because phones do everything P&S cameras did and more. Phones do not do everything a desktop PC can do, far from it. Phones cant do everything a DSLR can do, and likely wont. etc.. 15 years ago, around the time of the original xbox, people were saying the PC gaming market was d
Re: Mobile is the new PC and AArch64 is the new x64
On Thursday, 20 September 2018 at 05:45:52 UTC, Laurent Tréguier wrote: On Wednesday, 19 September 2018 at 18:14:47 UTC, Dave Jones wrote: Only if the new product meets all the use cases of the old product. Again this is what you dont understand. Why did the iPhone, and after that the smartphone industry as a whole, completely crush the classic cell phones when they have such a poor battery life? Smartphones don't have everything previous phones had. The pros simply outweighed the cons. Longer battery life is a convenience not a requirement. You don't need a new product to do everything the previous product did for it to be successful enough to replace it. I used to be all about being able to replace a phone's battery manually. With basically any newer smartphone now, you can't anymore. You can still buy the old brick phones with longer battery life. Smartphones have taken over but they havent killed that market completely. Just because phones aren't doing everything PC's are doing doesn't mean they can't overtake their market. All they need is to have sufficient advantages over them, and even if you don't think this is the case right now, the average user could very well disagree. Just like with removable batteries (which wasn't even a really technical thing). It's not about phones overtaking desktops in the market, that's long past, it's about phones killing the desktop market completely. All the advantages in the world are no good if it doesnt do something you **require** it to do. If I'm doing pro audio Android is useless, no hardware, not enough processing power, no DAW apps. Doesn't matter if it has an amazing screen, 3 sims, year long battery, etc etc..
Re: Mobile is the new PC and AArch64 is the new x64
On Thursday, 20 September 2018 at 09:32:01 UTC, Laurent Tréguier wrote: On Thursday, 20 September 2018 at 08:15:39 UTC, Dave Jones wrote: Longer battery life is a convenience not a requirement. What is a convenience and a requirement is completely subjective. I'd classify the removable battery example as a requirement more than a convenience, but other people don't. Unless lack of the feature in question stops you from doing something you *must* be able to do with the device then it is not a requirement. You can classify however you like, but you can still do everything you could whether with a fixed or removable battery. If battery life is a concern you can get a portable charger. You can still buy the old brick phones with longer battery life. Smartphones have taken over but they havent killed that market completely. Just like you can buy pretty much any old thing, obviously markets don't get 100% killed, nobody here is talking about complete, absolute annihilation of the PC to the point that is doesn't exist anymore... Markets get "adjusted", some things get killed, AFAIK you cant buy VHS recorders any more, but you can still buy vinyl records. In fact the market for vinyl has grown almost 100% in the last 10 years. Weird but true, people buy stuff for all sorts of reasons. It's not about phones overtaking desktops in the market, that's long past, it's about phones killing the desktop market completely. You're just playing on words here. No I'm not, it's what Joakim has been saying all along, and as you used the same language it's fair to assume you meant the same as he did. All the advantages in the world are no good if it doesnt do something you **require** it to do. If I'm doing pro audio Android is useless, no hardware, not enough processing power, no DAW apps. Doesn't matter if it has an amazing screen, 3 sims, year long battery, etc etc.. Correction: "All the advantages in the world are no good if it doesn't do something MOST PEOPLE **require** it to do". I personally wanted phones to always have a removable battery, but I'm not representative of the whole population. If I require an 12 channel balanced audio interface, I wont buy a ing phone because it cant do that. If you require a removable battery and cant find a phone that has one, you will still buy a phone with a fixed battery. Because your not buying it to charge batteries. Its a different thing. You're doing pro audio. Do most people in the world do pro audio ? I think not. Apple survived for 20 years just selling computers mostly to the pro-audio and publishing industry, its a big market. "no hardware": if it exists in this plane of the universe, so it must have hardware in some way, don't you think ? "not enough processing power": IIRC the very beginning of this train-wreck of a thread was the fact that processing power on smartphones is constantly increasing... So that's probably just a matter of time. If Sony came out with a PS5 tomorrow that had 100X the power of the PS4 you think all the developers and users would "nah that's too much man, we wouldnt know what to do with it, 10X is all we need" Or would they be creaming their pants thinking of all the cool shit that can be done with that kind of processing power. Pro audio is that, so is video, so is PC gaming.
Re: Mobile is the new PC and AArch64 is the new x64
On Thursday, 20 September 2018 at 10:02:05 UTC, Laurent Tréguier wrote: On Thursday, 20 September 2018 at 08:15:39 UTC, Dave Jones wrote: [snip] I apologize for the tone I'm using, I shouldn't jump on that train. I'll clarify my position on this: I'm not completely absolutely sure that smartphones will kill the PC market, but I do think it's a possibility that just can't be dismissed. No need to apologise, I didnt pick up any "tone". FWIW I agree with your position in the long term. I mean I dont think we can predict 15 years from now what computing will look like. Most everything said in this thread could be irrelevant by then.
what means... auto ref Args args?
Poking around in the source code for emplace and I noticed... T* emplace(T, Args...)(T* chunk, auto ref Args args) what does the "auto ref" do in this situiation? Cant seem to find any explanation in the docs.
Re: what means... auto ref Args args?
On Wednesday, 18 October 2017 at 21:38:41 UTC, Dave Jones wrote: Poking around in the source code for emplace and I noticed... T* emplace(T, Args...)(T* chunk, auto ref Args args) what does the "auto ref" do in this situiation? Cant seem to find any explanation in the docs. sorry meant to put this in learn
Re: what means... auto ref Args args?
On Wednesday, 18 October 2017 at 22:16:32 UTC, Moritz Maxeiner wrote: On Wednesday, 18 October 2017 at 21:38:41 UTC, Dave Jones wrote: Poking around in the source code for emplace and I noticed... T* emplace(T, Args...)(T* chunk, auto ref Args args) what does the "auto ref" do in this situiation? Cant seem to find any explanation in the docs. It means that any argument (that is an element of args) will be passed by reference if and only if it's an lvalue (has a memory address that can be taken) (it'll be passed by value otherwise). https://dlang.org/spec/template.html#auto-ref-parameters So it's just to make sure any "ref" in the eventual call to Ts constructor is also reflected in the call to emplace?
Re: what means... auto ref Args args?
On Thursday, 19 October 2017 at 01:05:28 UTC, Jonathan M Davis wrote: On Thursday, October 19, 2017 00:00:54 Dave Jones via That's likely the main reason in this case, since losing the ref-ness could definitely cause issues with some constructors, but auto ref is frequently used simply to avoid copying lvalues while not requiring lvalues (since if ref is used, the argument must be an lvalue, and if ref is not used, the argument will be copied if it's an lvalue; it will be moved if it's an rvalue). D never binds rvalues to ref like C++ does with const T&. - Jonathan M Davis Makes sense, thanks.
Re: Required Reading: "How Non-Member Functions Improve Encapsulation"
On Tuesday, 31 October 2017 at 01:44:58 UTC, codephantom wrote: On Monday, 30 October 2017 at 23:03:12 UTC, H. S. Teoh wrote: But in D, UFCS allows obj.func() to work for both member functions and free functions, so if the client code uses the obj.func() syntax, it won't have to care about the difference. I don't like it. When I see obj.func(), to me, func() is a member function. Why should I spend any time trying to work out whether it's a member function or a free function? It doesn't make sense to me. You dont need to know how its implemented. There's no benefit to knowing. It's a waste of time / distraction to even think about it.
Re: [OT] Windows dying
On Thursday, 2 November 2017 at 08:59:05 UTC, Patrick Schluter wrote: On Thursday, 2 November 2017 at 06:28:52 UTC, codephantom wrote: But Ken Thompson summed it all up nicely: "You can't trust code that you did not totally create yourself." Even that is wrong. You can trust code you create yourself only if it was reviewed by others as involved as you. I do not trust the code I write. The code I write is generally conforming to the problem I think it solves. More than once I was wrong on my assumptions and therefore my code was wrong, even if perfectly implemented. He means trust in the sense that there's no nefarious payload hidden in there, not that it works properly.
Re: [OT] mobile rising
On Sunday, 12 November 2017 at 02:07:03 UTC, codephantom wrote: On Saturday, 11 November 2017 at 20:35:40 UTC, Jerry wrote: When I joined the forum a little while back, I dared to suggest that D should be able to compile a 64bit binary on Windows, without having to relying on gigabytes of proprietaty, closed source, bloat from MSFT. I stand by that comment, despite the harrassment from the many MSFT fanboys on these forums. Acting as victim, you've done more harassing than anyone. How ironic you label people "MSFT fanboy" in the same sentence you cry harassment. And again, I'd like to point out to everyone, that the attack on me, in this thread, started becasue I dared to suggest you should be able to compile a 64bit D executable, on Windows, without have to download GB's of propriatey, closed-source, bloatware. Jesus Christ you big pair of fecking babys. Nobody argued it wouldn't be better to have 64 bit out of the box. They argued you were making a big deal out of something that just works for most everyone else. And yes you hate Microsoft, and windows, and visual studio, and the chumps that use that crap. Jerry hates you for something, i think i missed why, but he clearly thinks you're a bit slow. Oh and you played the I use a plain text editor card, cause that's what real programmers do. Real programmers use a DOS text editor and store shit on tape... i mean punch cards, punch cards are best. The kids these days with their fancy I.. D.. E..s, they are not real programmers, just monkeys with typewriters. I wish I was young again. I used to love arguing about pointless crap, i couldn't resit it, mac vs pc, risc vs cisc, sony vs nintendo, utd vs liverpool, and there are always so many opportunities to take offence when you're young now I'm old and don't give a shit its taken me 32 pages to build up enough energy to post two bleeding paragraphs. So ignore my first comment, enjoy while you're young, it's good to see a couple of young bucks trying to spill each others guts onto the newsgroup!
Re: [OT] mobile rising
On Monday, 13 November 2017 at 00:47:46 UTC, codephantom wrote: On Monday, 13 November 2017 at 00:41:32 UTC, Jerry wrote: harassing people isn't defending your argument. Yeah...it's not nice...being harassed..is it. You have to be harassed to know what if feels like. That was my objective. Not to harass you, but to let you know how I felt when you harassed me. That's it little fella let it all out... *passes codebaby a tissue*
Re: [OT] mobile rising
On Monday, 13 November 2017 at 01:14:32 UTC, codephantom wrote: On Monday, 13 November 2017 at 00:47:46 UTC, codephantom wrote: On Monday, 13 November 2017 at 00:41:32 UTC, Jerry wrote: harassing people isn't defending your argument. Yeah...it's not nice...being harassed..is it. You have to be harassed to know what if feels like. That was my objective. Not to harass you, but to let you know how I felt when you harassed me. A more 'scientific' way of saying that, is that I was attempting to turn the observer into the actor. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1185516 *snort* scientific yeah.. he called you names, so you called him names, so he called you names.. every child in the playground knows that game.
Re: [OT] mobile rising
On Monday, 13 November 2017 at 11:55:59 UTC, codephantom wrote: On Sunday, 12 November 2017 at 16:02:14 UTC, Dave Jones wrote: Jesus Christ you big pair of fecking babys. Nobody argued it wouldn't be better to have 64 bit out of the box. They argued you were making a big deal out of something that just works for most everyone else. And yes you hate Microsoft, and windows, and visual studio, and the chumps that use that crap. Jerry hates you for something, i think i missed why, but he clearly thinks you're a bit slow. Oh and you played the I use a plain text editor card, cause that's what real programmers do. Real programmers use a DOS text editor and store shit on tape... i mean punch cards, punch cards are best. The kids these days with their fancy I.. D.. E..s, they are not real programmers, just monkeys with typewriters. [...] Hey Dave..I still got plenty of more energy left, if you wanna keep at it. Hmmm, i get home to find eight messages from codebaby, he sees sockpuppets everywhere, snapping at every bit of bait I laid... says he'll ignore my whole comment and then replys to it another two times, LOL, a full on meltdown and then he tops it all with the equivalent of "come back and get whats coming to you.. I'll bite your legs off". https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dhRUe-gz690 I think I might retire. See what trolling is now? See the difference between someone just arguing with you and someone actually f***ing with you. Probably not.
foreach bug, or shoddy docs, or something, or both.
Foreach ignores modification to the loop variable...
import std.stdio;
void main() {
int[10] foo = 10;
foreach (i; 0..10) // writes '10' ten times
{
writeln(foo[i]);
if (i == 3) i+=2;
}
}
From the docs...
"ForeachType declares a variable with either an explicit type, or
a type inferred from LwrExpression and UprExpression. <**snip**>
If Foreach is foreach, then the variable is set to LwrExpression,
then incremented at the end of each iteration."
That's clearly not what is happening, yes we get a variable, but
either its a copy of the actual loop variable, or something else
is going on. Because if we got the actual variable then
modifications to it would not be lost at the end of the current
iteration.
My opinion is the it should pick up the modification. I think
people expect the foreach form to be a shorthand for a regular
for loop.
Failing that it should be an error to write to the loop variable.
An at the least it should be explained in the documentation that
actually you get a copy of the loop variable so modifying it is a
waste of time.
Re: foreach bug, or shoddy docs, or something, or both.
On Sunday, 10 December 2017 at 02:31:47 UTC, Jonathan M Davis
wrote:
On Sunday, December 10, 2017 02:02:31 Dave Jones via
Digitalmars-d wrote:
https://issues.dlang.org/show_bug.cgi?id=14984
Honestly, it would have never occurred to me to try and modify
the variables declared in the foreach like that, and my first
inclination is to think that it shouldn't be allowed, but
thinking it through, and looking at how things actually work, I
don't think that the current behavior is really a problem.
Its not something I normally do but I was porting some C++ code
and changed the fors to foreaches. Just it took a while to figure
out what was going wrong.
then you can increment i the way you want to. So, maybe
modifying the loop variable in something like
foreach(i; 0 .. 10)
{
++i;
}
should be disallowed, but I don't really think that the current
behavior is really a problem either so long as it's properly
documented. Modifying i doesn't really cause any problems and
ref or the lack thereof allows you to control whether it
affects the loop. Ultimaetly, it looks to me like what we
currently have is reasonably well designed. It doesn't surprise
me in the least if it's not well-documented though.
Well it's just one of those "APIs should be hard to use in the
wrong way" kinda things to me. Either the loop var should be
actually the loop var rather than a copy, or it should be an
error to modify it.
Anyway it's not a bit deal like you say, but should be better
explained in the docs at least.
Thanks,
Re: SDL2 texture blend help
On Monday, 11 December 2017 at 04:57:44 UTC, Ivan Trombley wrote: Experimenting with compositing images in SDL2, I get a dark edge around my textures. In the image below, you can see the top example where I composite the cyan image on top of the blue/magenta image looks correct but the bottom example, which is done using SDL_RenderCopy is not correct. http://a4.pbase.com/o10/09/605909/1/166698494.lCoVTgcI.example.png I tried premultiplying the the colors in the cyan image and setting the blend function as such... SDL_SetTextureBlendMode(texture, SDL_ComposeCustomBlendMode( SDL_BlendFactor.SDL_BLENDFACTOR_ONE, SDL_BlendFactor.SDL_BLENDFACTOR_ONE_MINUS_SRC_ALPHA, SDL_BlendOperation.SDL_BLENDOPERATION_ADD, SDL_BlendFactor.SDL_BLENDFACTOR_ONE, SDL_BlendFactor.SDL_BLENDFACTOR_ONE, SDL_BlendOperation.SDL_BLENDOPERATION_ADD)); ...but that produces the exact same thing. Any SDL experts out there that can give me a clue? I dont know SDL but what your describing sounds like the cyan image already has premultiplied alpha and the blend operation is doubling down on that. Have you tried the above blend op without premultiplying the cyan image?
D Videos
Just an idea, i think it'd be a good idea to have a page on dlang with links to all the various D related talks / videos. Quite often i watch them as i find them in the newsgroup, but it'd be good to have them all in one place.
Re: D Videos
On Thursday, 28 December 2017 at 14:17:08 UTC, Mike Franklin wrote: On Thursday, 28 December 2017 at 14:11:57 UTC, Dave Jones wrote: Just an idea, i think it'd be a good idea to have a page on dlang with links to all the various D related talks / videos. Quite often i watch them as i find them in the newsgroup, but it'd be good to have them all in one place. https://wiki.dlang.org/Videos Mike Thanks, didnt consider that it might be in the wiki.
Should negating an unsigned integral be an error?
Given uint i = 12345; should writeln(-i) be an error? or maybe i should be automatically cast to a larger signed type?
Re: A betterC base
On Thursday, 8 February 2018 at 14:56:31 UTC, Adam D. Ruppe wrote: ooh better last sentence D's GC implementation follows in the footsteps of industry giants without compromising experts' ability to realize maximum potential from the machine. If D had a decent garbage collector it might be a more convincing argument. If going malloc didnt lose you a bunch of features and bring a bunch of other stuff you need to be careful of, that might be a good argument too. I mean a good quality GC and seamless integration of manual memory management would be a pretty good argument to make, but D has neither of those ATM.
Re: A betterC base
On Thursday, 8 February 2018 at 18:06:38 UTC, Walter Bright wrote: On 2/8/2018 9:03 AM, Dave Jones wrote: If D had a decent garbage collector it might be a more convincing argument. 'Decent' GC systems rely on the compiler emitting "write gates" around every assignment to a pointer. These are justified in languages like Java and Go for which everything is GC allocated, but they would be a performance disaster for a hybrid language like D. More precise GC exacts heavy runtime penalties, too, which is why attempts to add them to D have had mixed results. When even you make excuses for the sub standard garbage collection how can anyone expect to use it as a positive selling point for D? That's my point, that the current GC is not something that will sell many tickets to the show. Whether there are good reasons for it being so is kind of beside the point. I.e. it isn't an issue of us D guys being dumb about the GC. I have no doubt about that. If going malloc didnt lose you a bunch of features and bring a bunch of other stuff you need to be careful of, that might be a good argument too. With @nogc, you don't have to be careful about it. The compiler will let you know. I mean more mixing GCed and malloc memory. If you want to use malloc and still use language features that need GC, you still need to be aware and think about whether any of malloced stuff needs to be registered with the GC. IE. It's not just a case of "hey just use malloc".
Re: Being Positive
On Monday, 12 February 2018 at 23:54:29 UTC, Arun Chandrasekaran wrote: Sorry if I'm hurting someone's sentiment, but is it just me who is seeing so much negative trend in the D forum about D itself? I don't remember seeing so much negative about Rust on rust forum and so on. Do you think it will help in reminding people not to post any negative things? It shouldn't become strict moderation, but at the same time, I really don't like seeing so much negative trend. I would even go to the extent and suggest to email Walter/Andrei in person (even if they don't agree) to vent your frustration with D, but please don't post it on the forum. I think the thing is that the main D newsgroup has always felt like a bunch of people arguing over how to make D better, and that's kind of what it's always been, new ideas and directions are discussed in here by the main devs. Do Go and Rust have similar user groups, or do they do all that kind of stuff behind closed doors and then dictate from the top of a tower? Arguing, friction, grumbling, it's all a symptom of Ds open volunteer based development process IMO.
