Re: [IxDA Discuss] Continuous Scroll
Cindy, you mention that > "I observed users > setting the page limit to > max whenever they started an application and > complained why the default was > not the max. When they log in, they want to quickly > scan how their clients > are doing, so they scroll down all the clients' > records and glance some > key data in columns and rows. Perhaps this behavior is because of a poor design of the current system that does not reflect an understanding of end-users? What are the "key data" you are talking about? With the solution you described, you still are leaving it up to the users to scan the data and identify the key information - a potentially frustrating experience with financial professionals. If you understand what the key data are, would it be difficult to display these first, thus mininizing end-user effort? --- Cindy Lu <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Hi! > > I thought this thread of discussion was interesting > so I would like to offer > some comments. > > I am working on an application used by investment > professionals. Some users > we visited did not like paging. I observed users > setting the page limit to > max whenever they started an application and > complained why the default was > not the max. When they log in, they want to quickly > scan how their clients > are doing, so they scroll down all the clients' > records and glance some > key data in columns and rows. > > We recommended the continuous/infinit search similar > to Microsoft's live > search to our product team. Our product Beta has > launched. We receive some > positive reactions. However, we also observed some > problems: > 1) Performance. As you scroll down the page, there > is a delay for the system > to load the data. Filtering and sorting can be slow > too. > 2) Showing the user the total records and where the > user is (see Live > Search). The development team has difficulty in > capturing the total records > and showing where the user is because the records > are dynamically generated. > 3) The jump of the scroll bar. As you move the > scroll bar to the bottom, the > scroll will jump back after a short delay and more > records are shown. > > Currently, the team is in the process of improving > the performance and > resolve the total record issue. We are in the > process of testing it with > users. > > If you have designed such feature for enterprise > applications and have > lessons learned for both designs and usabilty > testing, I appreciate it if > you could share them. > > Thanks! > > - Cindy > > *Come to IxDA Interaction08 | Savannah* > February 8-10, 2008 in Savannah, GA, USA > Register today: http://interaction08.ixda.org/ > > > Welcome to the Interaction Design Association > (IxDA)! > To post to this list ... [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Unsubscribe > http://www.ixda.org/unsubscribe > List Guidelines > http://www.ixda.org/guidelines > List Help .. > http://www.ixda.org/help > Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ *Come to IxDA Interaction08 | Savannah* February 8-10, 2008 in Savannah, GA, USA Register today: http://interaction08.ixda.org/ Welcome to the Interaction Design Association (IxDA)! To post to this list ... [EMAIL PROTECTED] Unsubscribe http://www.ixda.org/unsubscribe List Guidelines http://www.ixda.org/guidelines List Help .. http://www.ixda.org/help
Re: [IxDA Discuss] Continuous Scroll
Cindy said: "We recommended the continuous/infinit search similar to Microsoft's live search to our product team." Why? What advantage does this offer over raw and semantically correct XHTML or XML, which loads quickly, can natively incorporate tabular data and everything else you need, is fully searchable from the start, easier to maintain ... ? Seriously, why add complexity when it flies in the face of user expectations and wishes? Why wait for a study or an "expert" to tell you what you've already been told? Granted, my perspective is skewed a bit by designing mostly for the Web and being held to strict standards of accessibility. But again and again, here's what users tell me: "Deliver the goods, and don't be too cute about it." That's especially true for financial data and any other information they consider critical to their daily decision-making. Nielsen and others have confirmed this time and again with careful research. In general (and there may be some really good exceptions, especially in a closed system, but I'm not recalling any right now), I'll say "yes" to server-side scripts because when they're well implemented they can deliver the goods faster or more elegantly -- "includes" can actually _reduce_ the code burden -- and I say "maybe" to client-side scripts because they can impede or completely block some or all users. Not everyone agrees with me, but I'm for standards-based progressive enhancement. It's straightforward and logical, and that usually serves everyone better if the data is also straightforward and logical. It's not that I'm a Luddite; I just don't want to use a cannon when a water pistol will do the job. The immediate impression is not the lasting impression, and the "wow" factor can wear thin very quickly. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Posted from the new ixda.org http://www.ixda.org/discuss?post=25287 *Come to IxDA Interaction08 | Savannah* February 8-10, 2008 in Savannah, GA, USA Register today: http://interaction08.ixda.org/ Welcome to the Interaction Design Association (IxDA)! To post to this list ... [EMAIL PROTECTED] Unsubscribe http://www.ixda.org/unsubscribe List Guidelines http://www.ixda.org/guidelines List Help .. http://www.ixda.org/help
Re: [IxDA Discuss] Continuous Scroll
Hi! I thought this thread of discussion was interesting so I would like to offer some comments. I am working on an application used by investment professionals. Some users we visited did not like paging. I observed users setting the page limit to max whenever they started an application and complained why the default was not the max. When they log in, they want to quickly scan how their clients are doing, so they scroll down all the clients' records and glance some key data in columns and rows. We recommended the continuous/infinit search similar to Microsoft's live search to our product team. Our product Beta has launched. We receive some positive reactions. However, we also observed some problems: 1) Performance. As you scroll down the page, there is a delay for the system to load the data. Filtering and sorting can be slow too. 2) Showing the user the total records and where the user is (see Live Search). The development team has difficulty in capturing the total records and showing where the user is because the records are dynamically generated. 3) The jump of the scroll bar. As you move the scroll bar to the bottom, the scroll will jump back after a short delay and more records are shown. Currently, the team is in the process of improving the performance and resolve the total record issue. We are in the process of testing it with users. If you have designed such feature for enterprise applications and have lessons learned for both designs and usabilty testing, I appreciate it if you could share them. Thanks! - Cindy *Come to IxDA Interaction08 | Savannah* February 8-10, 2008 in Savannah, GA, USA Register today: http://interaction08.ixda.org/ Welcome to the Interaction Design Association (IxDA)! To post to this list ... [EMAIL PROTECTED] Unsubscribe http://www.ixda.org/unsubscribe List Guidelines http://www.ixda.org/guidelines List Help .. http://www.ixda.org/help
Re: [IxDA Discuss] Continuous Scroll
Thanks, John, for posting the link to Ultimate Orange. I think that kind of ultimately pointless content may be the perfect application of the continuous scroll, and it's a great proof of concept. It reminded me of the old story about the guy who admired Britain's quaint scenery and said to the man beside him on the train, "I guess all of England could fit into one corner of Nebraska." The Englishman famously answered, "But to what end, young man?" Indeed. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Posted from the new ixda.org http://www.ixda.org/discuss?post=25287 *Come to IxDA Interaction08 | Savannah* February 8-10, 2008 in Savannah, GA, USA Register today: http://interaction08.ixda.org/ Welcome to the Interaction Design Association (IxDA)! To post to this list ... [EMAIL PROTECTED] Unsubscribe http://www.ixda.org/unsubscribe List Guidelines http://www.ixda.org/guidelines List Help .. http://www.ixda.org/help
Re: [IxDA Discuss] Continuous Scroll
Since this thread is about a method, I totally agree that we also have to consider the context its used in. Some said that it weakens the functionality while some offered new methods of empowering the ajax pagination. Thanks for those great comments. Google Reader is a one fine real life example where you don't bookmark within the browser but star and share individual items within the Google Reader itself. So, I think there are more solutions out there in order to empower the method and suit the needs of the content. Bests. Etkin Ciftci Interaction Designer eciftci[at]bilende.com Bilende Design & Development Istanbul-TR *Come to IxDA Interaction08 | Savannah* February 8-10, 2008 in Savannah, GA, USA Register today: http://interaction08.ixda.org/ Welcome to the Interaction Design Association (IxDA)! To post to this list ... [EMAIL PROTECTED] Unsubscribe http://www.ixda.org/unsubscribe List Guidelines http://www.ixda.org/guidelines List Help .. http://www.ixda.org/help
Re: [IxDA Discuss] Continuous Scroll
> So in these two months, it never occured to me that the infinite > scroll was being implemented, it was invisible to me. Part of some of the debate may be due to that the example implementation provided (http://www.symfony-project.org/demo/ pager.html ) does not have that seamless feeling like Patricia has experienced with Google Reader. It has a very noticeable stutter between loads, thus providing a very unnatural scroll feeling. In regards to the bookmarking issue. It does depend on the context. For example, bookmarking a page of blog entries is irrelevant as page 3 of blog posts will be different tomorrow than it was at the time of bookmarking, hence making a bookmark of pagination useless. The same goes for search results, or any kind of paginated dynamic data. Bryan Haggerty *Come to IxDA Interaction08 | Savannah* February 8-10, 2008 in Savannah, GA, USA Register today: http://interaction08.ixda.org/ Welcome to the Interaction Design Association (IxDA)! To post to this list ... [EMAIL PROTECTED] Unsubscribe http://www.ixda.org/unsubscribe List Guidelines http://www.ixda.org/guidelines List Help .. http://www.ixda.org/help
Re: [IxDA Discuss] Continuous Scroll
> Another good real-world example of this pattern is the Microsoft Live > image search. > > http://search.live.com/images/results.aspx?q=ixda This is one of the pages used during the testing I witnessed. Aside from the problems I mentioned in my previous reply, participants also had a very difficult time because of the broken Back button. When you click an image to learn more about it or see a larger view, you leave the page, and when you hit Back, you have to start at the beginning. It doesn't "remember" where you left off and return you to the section you last viewed. This is a problem in many "infinite scrolling" implementations. Reminds me of the ongoing battle between Flash apps and the Back button. *Come to IxDA Interaction08 | Savannah* February 8-10, 2008 in Savannah, GA, USA Register today: http://interaction08.ixda.org/ Welcome to the Interaction Design Association (IxDA)! To post to this list ... [EMAIL PROTECTED] Unsubscribe http://www.ixda.org/unsubscribe List Guidelines http://www.ixda.org/guidelines List Help .. http://www.ixda.org/help
Re: [IxDA Discuss] Continuous Scroll
This paradigm can be considered from a different angle (can paradigms have angles?) by looking at more 'experiential' sites. See, for example, the Orange Unlimited site which encourages playability with the infinite page and initially entices the user to continue their fruitless scroll. Quite how persistent people are with this remains to be seen. >From a 'success' point of view it did at least win an IAB award. URL: http://unlimited.orange.co.uk/flash/go . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Posted from the new ixda.org http://www.ixda.org/discuss?post=25287 *Come to IxDA Interaction08 | Savannah* February 8-10, 2008 in Savannah, GA, USA Register today: http://interaction08.ixda.org/ Welcome to the Interaction Design Association (IxDA)! To post to this list ... [EMAIL PROTECTED] Unsubscribe http://www.ixda.org/unsubscribe List Guidelines http://www.ixda.org/guidelines List Help .. http://www.ixda.org/help
Re: [IxDA Discuss] Continuous Scroll
Another good real-world example of this pattern is the Microsoft Live image search. http://search.live.com/images/results.aspx?q=ixda ...Dan *Come to IxDA Interaction08 | Savannah* February 8-10, 2008 in Savannah, GA, USA Register today: http://interaction08.ixda.org/ Welcome to the Interaction Design Association (IxDA)! To post to this list ... [EMAIL PROTECTED] Unsubscribe http://www.ixda.org/unsubscribe List Guidelines http://www.ixda.org/guidelines List Help .. http://www.ixda.org/help
Re: [IxDA Discuss] Continuous Scroll
Patricia said: "I think it's one of those situations that if you bring it to someone's attention, they may decide not to like it, but if you don't say anything, it probably won't interfere with user experience much." I'm not so sure about that. It's one of those "features" that adds nothing significant to the user experience and subtracts some functionality and choice. How many of us are just like Murli in the way we scan articles, reading the beginning and end as a way to decide whether in-depth reading will be worthwhile? I know I do, and it's something I don't want to change because it saves me time and adds value to my experience. Just because it's cool, doesn't mean you should do it. Well-structured HTML/XHTML loads very quickly in any browser, and is preferable for many reasons. This is one of those presentational "enhancements" that will -- in the long run -- encourage people to disable javascript. In designing for the Web, I think we should always ask whether a feature really adds enough genuine value to offset its cost (as measured in time and comprehension) to the end user. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Posted from the new ixda.org http://www.ixda.org/discuss?post=25287 *Come to IxDA Interaction08 | Savannah* February 8-10, 2008 in Savannah, GA, USA Register today: http://interaction08.ixda.org/ Welcome to the Interaction Design Association (IxDA)! To post to this list ... [EMAIL PROTECTED] Unsubscribe http://www.ixda.org/unsubscribe List Guidelines http://www.ixda.org/guidelines List Help .. http://www.ixda.org/help
Re: [IxDA Discuss] Continuous Scroll
One of the things not mentioned in this discussion is whether such an implementation (infinite scroll) is appropriate for all kinds of information. There is tool/technology/feature, on the one hand, and there is the content on the other. While there are probably people who read entire novels online, they likely constitute a minuscule minority. Browser based interaction is very well suited for relatively small quantities of content, especially content that is highly hyperlinked (which was the original purpose of the web, wasn't it?). I don't think the book or book-like devices are likely to go away because the form is very well suited to the nature of content and manner in which that content is imbibed. Likewise, infinite scrolling works very well in Google Reader and other such applications that contain many pieces of small, independent chunks of content. I absolutely detest reading long articles online (such as articles from The Atlantic Monthly, New Yorker, Salon). The moment I see that the article runs into, say, 14 pages, I search for a link that generates all the content on a single page (if available) and after reading the first couple of paragraphs, I read the concluding ones and quickly scan the rest. If it takes too long to load, I bail out. To return to the main issue, one must evaluate the usefulness or usability of Infinite Scrolling with respect to the nature of content in question. My hunch is that if a study were to be conducted, people would rate the U/U of IS variably according to application/content. Unfortunately, every time a new technology or paradigm is developed, there is a rush to try applying it indiscriminately to just every manner of content on Teh Interwebs. - murli *Come to IxDA Interaction08 | Savannah* February 8-10, 2008 in Savannah, GA, USA Register today: http://interaction08.ixda.org/ Welcome to the Interaction Design Association (IxDA)! To post to this list ... [EMAIL PROTECTED] Unsubscribe http://www.ixda.org/unsubscribe List Guidelines http://www.ixda.org/guidelines List Help .. http://www.ixda.org/help
Re: [IxDA Discuss] Continuous Scroll
My first reaction when I first heard of this method, oh, maybe a week ago was I didn't like it - in fact, I would go so far to say, I hated it. Than I saw this post and checked out the link and again, I was thinking how frustrating it was. But than Meredith mentions Google Reader uses this approach. I have been using Google Reader for a couple months now, it's how I keep up with my posts here. I miss a day and I have over a 100 posts waiting for me to read, and with expanded view, it's a long page to scan. So in these two months, it never occured to me that the infinite scroll was being implemented, it was invisible to me. I use my scroll roll on the mouse (what is that called anyway?) so can't say I paid much attention to the scroll bar length and position. I also notice that if you auto scroll (press the scroll roll on the mouse) it will continue to load for you with only a slight delay between loads for an almost seemless scroll to bottom. I think it's one of those situations that if you bring it to someone's attention, they may decide not to like it, but if you don't say anything, it probably won't interfere with user experience much. But of course, it depends. :) . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Posted from the new ixda.org http://www.ixda.org/discuss?post=25287 *Come to IxDA Interaction08 | Savannah* February 8-10, 2008 in Savannah, GA, USA Register today: http://interaction08.ixda.org/ Welcome to the Interaction Design Association (IxDA)! To post to this list ... [EMAIL PROTECTED] Unsubscribe http://www.ixda.org/unsubscribe List Guidelines http://www.ixda.org/guidelines List Help .. http://www.ixda.org/help
Re: [IxDA Discuss] Continuous Scroll
This has been around for a while, never caught on. Biggest concern was bookmarking. You can in fact bookmark this type of scrolling by adding event listeners, nobody tried it yet but it's easy enough to do. Each back button would take you to a different anchor point on the page. You can also email to friends depending on what part of the page you are on, and they would be able to view the set of results you were viewing when you sent the link. More info here: http://unspace.ca/discover/pageless/ On Jan 30, 2008 12:24 PM, Bryan Minihan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > There are many common scenarios where people only care about the first > page > of results (which is why many SEO efforts are geared toward getting a site > listed above the fold on Google/Yahoo, etc). > > I suspect there is almost a subconscious drive for many folks to see the > "whole first page" of results to know what they're up against, have a > quick > pass through the page, before deciding whether to refine their search or > keep digging through. > > In any kind of record listing, there are (at least) two big factors at > stake > *: the assumption that the results contain what you want, and the > assumption that you entered the right query/keywords/selected the right > button to get what you want. If the 1st factor were the only one at play, > improving the ability to get to each page effortlessly would be the > important. If the 2nd is in play at all, you start interfering with a > person's ability to make that all-important decision - forge ahead or do > another search. > > I'm thinking of that I Love Lucy episode in the candy factory where the > conveyor belt keeps spitting out candy to wrap and they can't keep up. If > you keep getting results no matter how much you scroll, your 3 second > decision about the 1st page of results turned into an endless loop getting > what you need to make that decision. > > * I'm not a psychologist, just shooting from the hip, here... > > Bryan > http://www.bryanminihan.com > > > -Original Message----- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of > Robert > Hoekman, Jr. > Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Etkin Ciftci > Subject: Re: [IxDA Discuss] Continuous Scroll > > > I have video of people pounding on their mouse buttons in an attempt to > get > to the end of a page that will simply never end. > > > > *Come to IxDA Interaction08 | Savannah* > February 8-10, 2008 in Savannah, GA, USA > Register today: http://interaction08.ixda.org/ > > > Welcome to the Interaction Design Association (IxDA)! > To post to this list ... [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Unsubscribe http://www.ixda.org/unsubscribe > List Guidelines http://www.ixda.org/guidelines > List Help .. http://www.ixda.org/help > *Come to IxDA Interaction08 | Savannah* February 8-10, 2008 in Savannah, GA, USA Register today: http://interaction08.ixda.org/ Welcome to the Interaction Design Association (IxDA)! To post to this list ... [EMAIL PROTECTED] Unsubscribe http://www.ixda.org/unsubscribe List Guidelines http://www.ixda.org/guidelines List Help .. http://www.ixda.org/help
Re: [IxDA Discuss] Continuous Scroll
Hi, I am new to this list so sorry that my first post have to disagree with this implementation. uI am really concerned about the user expectations. What I observed from rapid usability tests is that users are confused by the initial size of the page and as mch confused by the end size of the page. "How a page so small can contain all the blog posts ? Oh, I can read that I have to scroll to make them appear... But how many posts are they in this page ?" This does not seem like a natural reaction to me. I think the problem with these "infinite" lists is that they are not displaying something infinite. Time is infinite, number of blog posts is not. Let's rethink the whole thing from the beginning. I want to have a single page that displays all my blog posts. I want that page to load quickly although my blog currenlty holds 1877 posts. How can I do that ? Maybe I can send to the user a page that has enough space for 1877 posts to be displayed as just couting them is trivial. I can then use asynchronous loading to load posts that are in the user viewport, like the first 13. Then my user can scroll in the page wherever he wants and I will asynchronously load any content that its viewport should be displaying. I remember a similar widget capable of loading Yahoo search results. The nice thing was that you were able to jump anywhere you want in the result list and the results would just show up, meaning that you could jump at the end of the list and get the last result without waiting for the previous results to load. I don't mean to be dogmatic here but I really think that web pages should not change their size, unless the user manually activates some expanding button like on the iPhone UI Alexander Baxevanis described. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Posted from the new ixda.org http://www.ixda.org/discuss?post=25287 *Come to IxDA Interaction08 | Savannah* February 8-10, 2008 in Savannah, GA, USA Register today: http://interaction08.ixda.org/ Welcome to the Interaction Design Association (IxDA)! To post to this list ... [EMAIL PROTECTED] Unsubscribe http://www.ixda.org/unsubscribe List Guidelines http://www.ixda.org/guidelines List Help .. http://www.ixda.org/help
Re: [IxDA Discuss] Continuous Scroll
Shekhar: "How about this AJAX paging example from 'Componentart' ..." Hi, Shekhar ... As you might guess from my comments above, I'm in part an accessibility advocate. As such, I like javascript as progressive enhancement. AJAX is being used far too much (in my opinion) for primary development with integrated enhancements. I hope that distinction makes sense. Integrated enhancements are a barrier to some users, and it's the biggest problem I have with what many people call Web 2.0. The Componentart implementation allows no useful content to be delivered if scripts are denied, so because of our laws it isn't anything I would be able to use in designing for a government website (my main interest, these days) ... In other ways I like it, assuming all intended users have good eyesight, good hand-eye coordination and javascript enabled. Very interesting example, Shekhar! Thanks for sharing it. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Posted from the new ixda.org http://www.ixda.org/discuss?post=25287 *Come to IxDA Interaction08 | Savannah* February 8-10, 2008 in Savannah, GA, USA Register today: http://interaction08.ixda.org/ Welcome to the Interaction Design Association (IxDA)! To post to this list ... [EMAIL PROTECTED] Unsubscribe http://www.ixda.org/unsubscribe List Guidelines http://www.ixda.org/guidelines List Help .. http://www.ixda.org/help
Re: [IxDA Discuss] Continuous Scroll
There are many common scenarios where people only care about the first page of results (which is why many SEO efforts are geared toward getting a site listed above the fold on Google/Yahoo, etc). I suspect there is almost a subconscious drive for many folks to see the "whole first page" of results to know what they're up against, have a quick pass through the page, before deciding whether to refine their search or keep digging through. In any kind of record listing, there are (at least) two big factors at stake *: the assumption that the results contain what you want, and the assumption that you entered the right query/keywords/selected the right button to get what you want. If the 1st factor were the only one at play, improving the ability to get to each page effortlessly would be the important. If the 2nd is in play at all, you start interfering with a person's ability to make that all-important decision - forge ahead or do another search. I'm thinking of that I Love Lucy episode in the candy factory where the conveyor belt keeps spitting out candy to wrap and they can't keep up. If you keep getting results no matter how much you scroll, your 3 second decision about the 1st page of results turned into an endless loop getting what you need to make that decision. * I'm not a psychologist, just shooting from the hip, here... Bryan http://www.bryanminihan.com -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Robert Hoekman, Jr. Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Etkin Ciftci Subject: Re: [IxDA Discuss] Continuous Scroll I have video of people pounding on their mouse buttons in an attempt to get to the end of a page that will simply never end. *Come to IxDA Interaction08 | Savannah* February 8-10, 2008 in Savannah, GA, USA Register today: http://interaction08.ixda.org/ Welcome to the Interaction Design Association (IxDA)! To post to this list ... [EMAIL PROTECTED] Unsubscribe http://www.ixda.org/unsubscribe List Guidelines http://www.ixda.org/guidelines List Help .. http://www.ixda.org/help
Re: [IxDA Discuss] Continuous Scroll
My first reaction on seeing this demo was to interpret the navigation controls as pertaining to an embedded video, rather than an actual live search listing. I would suspect that, unless this sort of control gains widespread usage, many people would make the same mistake. Dmitry On Jan 30, 2008 11:46 AM, Shekhar Bagawde <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > How about this AJAX paging example from 'Componentart', most of you might > have already seen this- > > http://www.componentart.com/webui/demos/demos_technology_showcase/web-services_ajax/ajax_withClientSideCaching/default.aspx > > - Each action retrieves the required set of records from the server > without > reloading the entire page; > - Retrieved pages are cached on the client, and the slider coloration > indicates pre-loaded areas. > > cheers, > Shekhar > > > On Jan 30, 2008 1:44 PM, Robert Hoekman, Jr. <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > This is cool. The only downside is that users often use the scroll bar > > as > > > an indicator of the longth of the page. This pretty much skews what is > > an > > > important bit of feedback to the user. > > > > > > My own observations (of dozens of people using "infinite scrolling" on > > various sites) are that not only is this true, but that users will often > > relentlessly try to "reach the end" of the page. They don't realize that > > the > > page is loading new results on purpose—they think that the results > simply > > have not finished loading. As such, they think the page is poorly > > constructed (slow) and the design pattern is often seen as annoying. > > > > I have video of people pounding on their mouse buttons in an attempt to > > get > > to the end of a page that will simply never end. > > > > I'm all for innovation, but pagination is such a standard thing that it > > will > > take a lot of undo-ing to convince people that infinite scrolling is > > better, > > especially considering the technical repercussions (such as Find > > functionality). > > > > -r- > > > > *Come to IxDA Interaction08 | Savannah* > > February 8-10, 2008 in Savannah, GA, USA > > Register today: http://interaction08.ixda.org/ > > > > > > Welcome to the Interaction Design Association (IxDA)! > > To post to this list ... [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Unsubscribe http://www.ixda.org/unsubscribe > > List Guidelines http://www.ixda.org/guidelines > > List Help .. http://www.ixda.org/help > > > > > > -- > cheers, > Shekhar > > *Come to IxDA Interaction08 | Savannah* > February 8-10, 2008 in Savannah, GA, USA > Register today: http://interaction08.ixda.org/ > > > Welcome to the Interaction Design Association (IxDA)! > To post to this list ... [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Unsubscribe http://www.ixda.org/unsubscribe > List Guidelines http://www.ixda.org/guidelines > List Help .. http://www.ixda.org/help > *Come to IxDA Interaction08 | Savannah* February 8-10, 2008 in Savannah, GA, USA Register today: http://interaction08.ixda.org/ Welcome to the Interaction Design Association (IxDA)! To post to this list ... [EMAIL PROTECTED] Unsubscribe http://www.ixda.org/unsubscribe List Guidelines http://www.ixda.org/guidelines List Help .. http://www.ixda.org/help
Re: [IxDA Discuss] Continuous Scroll
I really like this mode of browsing long lists, it would be really useful in things like discussion forums. I agree with the caveats that others mention, as well as the lack of bookmark-ability for pages deeper than the first. Much of my work involves finding reference information for various technologies, and I bookmark almost all of them (I rarely go back after a few days, but still...), so there should be a way of recognizing where the user is when they scroll down. Perhaps when each page loads you could append a #page5 to the URL and a " - Page 5" to the title, so if you want to, you could bookmark and come back to the spot you left. Otherwise, great concept =] Bryan http://www.bryanminihan.com -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Etkin Ciftci Subject: [IxDA Discuss] Continuous Scroll On the other hand ajax pagination assumes "if the user scrolled down to the bottom of a page, he should be asking for more." Do you agree with such an assumption? *Come to IxDA Interaction08 | Savannah* February 8-10, 2008 in Savannah, GA, USA Register today: http://interaction08.ixda.org/ Welcome to the Interaction Design Association (IxDA)! To post to this list ... [EMAIL PROTECTED] Unsubscribe http://www.ixda.org/unsubscribe List Guidelines http://www.ixda.org/guidelines List Help .. http://www.ixda.org/help
Re: [IxDA Discuss] Continuous Scroll
How about this AJAX paging example from 'Componentart', most of you might have already seen this- http://www.componentart.com/webui/demos/demos_technology_showcase/web-services_ajax/ajax_withClientSideCaching/default.aspx - Each action retrieves the required set of records from the server without reloading the entire page; - Retrieved pages are cached on the client, and the slider coloration indicates pre-loaded areas. cheers, Shekhar On Jan 30, 2008 1:44 PM, Robert Hoekman, Jr. <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > This is cool. The only downside is that users often use the scroll bar > as > > an indicator of the longth of the page. This pretty much skews what is > an > > important bit of feedback to the user. > > > My own observations (of dozens of people using "infinite scrolling" on > various sites) are that not only is this true, but that users will often > relentlessly try to "reach the end" of the page. They don't realize that > the > page is loading new results on purpose—they think that the results simply > have not finished loading. As such, they think the page is poorly > constructed (slow) and the design pattern is often seen as annoying. > > I have video of people pounding on their mouse buttons in an attempt to > get > to the end of a page that will simply never end. > > I'm all for innovation, but pagination is such a standard thing that it > will > take a lot of undo-ing to convince people that infinite scrolling is > better, > especially considering the technical repercussions (such as Find > functionality). > > -r- > > *Come to IxDA Interaction08 | Savannah* > February 8-10, 2008 in Savannah, GA, USA > Register today: http://interaction08.ixda.org/ > > > Welcome to the Interaction Design Association (IxDA)! > To post to this list ... [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Unsubscribe http://www.ixda.org/unsubscribe > List Guidelines http://www.ixda.org/guidelines > List Help .. http://www.ixda.org/help > -- cheers, Shekhar *Come to IxDA Interaction08 | Savannah* February 8-10, 2008 in Savannah, GA, USA Register today: http://interaction08.ixda.org/ Welcome to the Interaction Design Association (IxDA)! To post to this list ... [EMAIL PROTECTED] Unsubscribe http://www.ixda.org/unsubscribe List Guidelines http://www.ixda.org/guidelines List Help .. http://www.ixda.org/help
Re: [IxDA Discuss] Continuous Scroll
> This is cool. The only downside is that users often use the scroll bar as > an indicator of the longth of the page. This pretty much skews what is an > important bit of feedback to the user. My own observations (of dozens of people using "infinite scrolling" on various sites) are that not only is this true, but that users will often relentlessly try to "reach the end" of the page. They don't realize that the page is loading new results on purpose—they think that the results simply have not finished loading. As such, they think the page is poorly constructed (slow) and the design pattern is often seen as annoying. I have video of people pounding on their mouse buttons in an attempt to get to the end of a page that will simply never end. I'm all for innovation, but pagination is such a standard thing that it will take a lot of undo-ing to convince people that infinite scrolling is better, especially considering the technical repercussions (such as Find functionality). -r- *Come to IxDA Interaction08 | Savannah* February 8-10, 2008 in Savannah, GA, USA Register today: http://interaction08.ixda.org/ Welcome to the Interaction Design Association (IxDA)! To post to this list ... [EMAIL PROTECTED] Unsubscribe http://www.ixda.org/unsubscribe List Guidelines http://www.ixda.org/guidelines List Help .. http://www.ixda.org/help
Re: [IxDA Discuss] Continuous Scroll
How about the iPhone approach, which is used for example in the mail client: when you reach the bottom of what's already loaded, you need to click in order to load more items, and you get an indication of how many items there are. I think in some applications it's important to be able to load more items without losing the context of the original items. For example, I spent the last couple of hours looking for photos in a stock images website in order to illustrate a presentation. If I was able to have that sort of "infinite scroll", I could for example easily compare a thumbnail that would have normally been in the first page with one that would have been in the second page, without having to switch pages. As for the browser built-in search, while it's a great tool, it's a shame that it's not more integrated with the design of a webpage. It would be great if the page could get an "onsearch" event when the user invokes search to make sure all the content is loaded. It would also be a nice idea to be able to exclude certain areas of the page from searching, or demote the significance of a match in these areas, e.g. if I'm looking for the world "previous", a navigation label named "previous document" will create a spurious match. Cheers, Alex On Jan 30, 2008 3:24 PM, Kim Bieler <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > It's a neat implementation. However, there's something vaguely > Sisyphian about scrolling and scrolling and never getting to the bottom. > > I kind of like the "page 1 | 2 | 3" links because they tell me how > much content to expect. I'd prefer the Ajax pagination if it gave me > some indicator about how long it was going to keep adding content. > Another thought: with shorter pages, you keep the navigation and > identity information visible at the top of the screen. > > There are probably some applications for which this is an > improvement, however I'm not seeing it as a wholesale replacement. > > > -- Kim > > + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + > Kim Bieler Graphic Design > www.kbgd.com > c. 240-476-3129 > + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + > > > > > > *Come to IxDA Interaction08 | Savannah* > February 8-10, 2008 in Savannah, GA, USA > Register today: http://interaction08.ixda.org/ > > > Welcome to the Interaction Design Association (IxDA)! > To post to this list ... [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Unsubscribe http://www.ixda.org/unsubscribe > List Guidelines http://www.ixda.org/guidelines > List Help .. http://www.ixda.org/help > *Come to IxDA Interaction08 | Savannah* February 8-10, 2008 in Savannah, GA, USA Register today: http://interaction08.ixda.org/ Welcome to the Interaction Design Association (IxDA)! To post to this list ... [EMAIL PROTECTED] Unsubscribe http://www.ixda.org/unsubscribe List Guidelines http://www.ixda.org/guidelines List Help .. http://www.ixda.org/help
Re: [IxDA Discuss] Continuous Scroll
It's a neat implementation. However, there's something vaguely Sisyphian about scrolling and scrolling and never getting to the bottom. I kind of like the "page 1 | 2 | 3" links because they tell me how much content to expect. I'd prefer the Ajax pagination if it gave me some indicator about how long it was going to keep adding content. Another thought: with shorter pages, you keep the navigation and identity information visible at the top of the screen. There are probably some applications for which this is an improvement, however I'm not seeing it as a wholesale replacement. -- Kim + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + Kim Bieler Graphic Design www.kbgd.com c. 240-476-3129 + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + *Come to IxDA Interaction08 | Savannah* February 8-10, 2008 in Savannah, GA, USA Register today: http://interaction08.ixda.org/ Welcome to the Interaction Design Association (IxDA)! To post to this list ... [EMAIL PROTECTED] Unsubscribe http://www.ixda.org/unsubscribe List Guidelines http://www.ixda.org/guidelines List Help .. http://www.ixda.org/help
Re: [IxDA Discuss] Continuous Scroll
I agree with both Abi and Mark about this. I'm impressed that it remains accessible without scripts, and I like that a lot. I think you'd want to use this very selectively. In most cases, it's an advantage to me that my screen contains a finite amount of information I can sort through and use. My specific usage exception might be for archived material in a wiki, news site or the like -- cases in which you're unlikely to want anything at the very bottom. No, maybe not even for that. Try this: reload the page (with javascript enabled), and use your browser's search function to find "PHP Throwdown" (which is several "pages" down). You won't find it because it isn't loaded yet, and it won't be loaded until you scroll down to it. As often happens with javascript, some basic functionality is denied. Search is a very important feature to toss aside without good reason. Also, this script may make the assumption that the user who enables javascript has a fast connection. I'm on a T1 line now, and the load time was noticeable. Anybody care to test this on a dial-up connection? Don't get me wrong, I think it's _very_ cool. But these are accessibility problems that can come back to bite you later, if not considered at the start. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Posted from the new ixda.org http://www.ixda.org/discuss?post=25287 *Come to IxDA Interaction08 | Savannah* February 8-10, 2008 in Savannah, GA, USA Register today: http://interaction08.ixda.org/ Welcome to the Interaction Design Association (IxDA)! To post to this list ... [EMAIL PROTECTED] Unsubscribe http://www.ixda.org/unsubscribe List Guidelines http://www.ixda.org/guidelines List Help .. http://www.ixda.org/help
Re: [IxDA Discuss] Continuous Scroll
> Once the vertical scrollbar reaches the > bottom it triggers a new page to load. Unlike its common use in separate > frames(i.e. the inbox of Hotmail Live), ajax pagination(weird name) > attaches a new full page to the end of the current one. So, we end up with > a continuous scroll bar and therefore a continuous content. Thanks for bringing this up again, Etkin. Three real-world examples I've found are: The Humanized Reader http://humanized.com/reader/ Google Reader (I use this daily and love it, for the most part) http://reader.google.com A9 http://a9.com/ I have been referring to it as "infinite scroll" -- not sure whether I made that term up or if I heard it somewhere. I'm interested to know what other good examples of this people have found. Overall, I agree that its value entirely depends on the user's expectations for the page. It works well for me for RSS viewing because I have no desire to do anything other than keep reading when I get to the bottom of a page of articles. The trickiness comes in with other features -- for example, Google Reader has to guess that if I've scrolled past something, that means I've "read" it and its state should therefore be changed, so I won't see that article again. This isn't always necessarily a safe assumption, and it can be quite irksome at times. Meredith --- Meredith Noble Information Architect, Usability Matters Inc. 416-598-7770, ext. 6 [EMAIL PROTECTED] *Come to IxDA Interaction08 | Savannah* February 8-10, 2008 in Savannah, GA, USA Register today: http://interaction08.ixda.org/ Welcome to the Interaction Design Association (IxDA)! To post to this list ... [EMAIL PROTECTED] Unsubscribe http://www.ixda.org/unsubscribe List Guidelines http://www.ixda.org/guidelines List Help .. http://www.ixda.org/help
Re: [IxDA Discuss] Continuous Scroll
This is cool. The only downside is that users often use the scroll bar as an indicator of the longth of the page. This pretty much skews what is an important bit of feedback to the user. Mark On Wednesday, January 30, 2008, at 09:05AM, "Etkin Ciftci" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >As supported in the Sympony Open-Source PHP Web Framework, "Ajax Pagination" >allows the client browser to load the content gradually as the user scrolls >down to the bottom of the web page. Once the vertical scrollbar reaches the >bottom it triggers a new page to load. Unlike its common use in separate >frames(i.e. the inbox of Hotmail Live), ajax pagination(weird name) attaches >a new full page to the end of the current one. So, we end up with a >continuous scroll bar and therefore a continuous content. > >http://www.symfony-project.org/demo/pager.html > >I am very excited about the possible usages of this method. It may totally >revolutionize the way we interact with web browsers. No more "previous >entries" buttons(i.e. techcrunch), no more page 1.2.3 links (i.e. google >results page)...the method proposes an instant continuity upon request for >the long web content. > >On the other hand ajax pagination assumes "if the user scrolled down to the >bottom of a page, he should be asking for more." Do you agree with such an >assumption? > >Etkin Ciftci >Interaction Designer >Bilende, Istanbul > >*Come to IxDA Interaction08 | Savannah* >February 8-10, 2008 in Savannah, GA, USA >Register today: http://interaction08.ixda.org/ > > >Welcome to the Interaction Design Association (IxDA)! >To post to this list ... [EMAIL PROTECTED] >Unsubscribe http://www.ixda.org/unsubscribe >List Guidelines http://www.ixda.org/guidelines >List Help .. http://www.ixda.org/help > > *Come to IxDA Interaction08 | Savannah* February 8-10, 2008 in Savannah, GA, USA Register today: http://interaction08.ixda.org/ Welcome to the Interaction Design Association (IxDA)! To post to this list ... [EMAIL PROTECTED] Unsubscribe http://www.ixda.org/unsubscribe List Guidelines http://www.ixda.org/guidelines List Help .. http://www.ixda.org/help
Re: [IxDA Discuss] Continuous Scroll
I liked the demo. It didn't jump around at all and was actually fairly elegant. However, I'm not sure that I agree that the user is looking for more content if they scroll to the bottom of the page. I'm assuming this is another case of "it depends". Depending on the type of site I'm on and what type of content I'm reading about or looking at I may be waiting for more. That being said in this case (and I'm wondering if in other cases) it didn't hurt to have to extra content appear. Thoughts? . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Posted from the new ixda.org http://www.ixda.org/discuss?post=25287 *Come to IxDA Interaction08 | Savannah* February 8-10, 2008 in Savannah, GA, USA Register today: http://interaction08.ixda.org/ Welcome to the Interaction Design Association (IxDA)! To post to this list ... [EMAIL PROTECTED] Unsubscribe http://www.ixda.org/unsubscribe List Guidelines http://www.ixda.org/guidelines List Help .. http://www.ixda.org/help
Re: [IxDA Discuss] Continuous Scroll
V. Interesting ajax implementation. Right now, when I scroll down to the bottom of a page it also means that I might be looking for information I assume is in the footer (company contact info, address, help links). Also, what does it mean for CTRL F style page searches? Thanks for giving the list a lot to think about :) . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Posted from the new ixda.org http://www.ixda.org/discuss?post=25287 *Come to IxDA Interaction08 | Savannah* February 8-10, 2008 in Savannah, GA, USA Register today: http://interaction08.ixda.org/ Welcome to the Interaction Design Association (IxDA)! To post to this list ... [EMAIL PROTECTED] Unsubscribe http://www.ixda.org/unsubscribe List Guidelines http://www.ixda.org/guidelines List Help .. http://www.ixda.org/help
[IxDA Discuss] Continuous Scroll
As supported in the Sympony Open-Source PHP Web Framework, "Ajax Pagination" allows the client browser to load the content gradually as the user scrolls down to the bottom of the web page. Once the vertical scrollbar reaches the bottom it triggers a new page to load. Unlike its common use in separate frames(i.e. the inbox of Hotmail Live), ajax pagination(weird name) attaches a new full page to the end of the current one. So, we end up with a continuous scroll bar and therefore a continuous content. http://www.symfony-project.org/demo/pager.html I am very excited about the possible usages of this method. It may totally revolutionize the way we interact with web browsers. No more "previous entries" buttons(i.e. techcrunch), no more page 1.2.3 links (i.e. google results page)...the method proposes an instant continuity upon request for the long web content. On the other hand ajax pagination assumes "if the user scrolled down to the bottom of a page, he should be asking for more." Do you agree with such an assumption? Etkin Ciftci Interaction Designer Bilende, Istanbul *Come to IxDA Interaction08 | Savannah* February 8-10, 2008 in Savannah, GA, USA Register today: http://interaction08.ixda.org/ Welcome to the Interaction Design Association (IxDA)! To post to this list ... [EMAIL PROTECTED] Unsubscribe http://www.ixda.org/unsubscribe List Guidelines http://www.ixda.org/guidelines List Help .. http://www.ixda.org/help
