Re: [IxDA Discuss] Some form fun, to lighten the mood
It is an arbitrary indication, but to some extent at least I think it does set expectations. We tend to judge and evaluate based on past experience, so if going through Step2 of a form takes us 3 seconds, I think we will assume that Step3 won't take more than 10-20 seconds. If Step takes 3 minutes, we will probably assume Step3 may take more than 1 minute. Sebi On Thu, 29 Nov 2007 10:14:41, pauric [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I've used progress bars a lot in the past both as a designer and as a user. I believe the only true value they bring to a design is the illusion of speed. That things are moving along. However I disagree that they set expectations for users. Step 3 can still contain the War Peace of forms - I think its false to say users dont expect they'll get hit with something like that. So, in the end it is an arbitrary indication of how long something is going to take. -- Sergiu Sebastian Tauciuc http://www.sergiutauciuc.ro/en/ *Come to IxDA Interaction08 | Savannah* February 8-10, 2008 in Savannah, GA, USA Register today: http://interaction08.ixda.org/ Welcome to the Interaction Design Association (IxDA)! To post to this list ... [EMAIL PROTECTED] Unsubscribe http://www.ixda.org/unsubscribe List Guidelines http://www.ixda.org/guidelines List Help .. http://www.ixda.org/help
Re: [IxDA Discuss] Some form fun, to lighten the mood
That was exactly my reaction! Putting aside all the other problem that this form has, this particular issue could be solved by animating the way that the div materializes. That way it would be obvious that something is appearing rather than something disappearing. Best, -- Martin Polley Technical Communicator +972 52 3864280 http://capcloud.com/ On Thu, 29 Nov 2007 10:00:33, Patricia Garcia [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Honestly, I was so focused on the disappearing check boxes that I didn't even read the div that appeared below the checked box. I wanted to first figure out what happened to my check boxes. *Come to IxDA Interaction08 | Savannah* February 8-10, 2008 in Savannah, GA, USA Register today: http://interaction08.ixda.org/ Welcome to the Interaction Design Association (IxDA)! To post to this list ... [EMAIL PROTECTED] Unsubscribe http://www.ixda.org/unsubscribe List Guidelines http://www.ixda.org/guidelines List Help .. http://www.ixda.org/help
Re: [IxDA Discuss] Some form fun, to lighten the mood
Its the 'vertical wizard' pattern. Robert:No need to type anything. While I dont disagree that its not the best form in the world and would be better suited with a traditional multi page wizard. In your view, if someone was actually entering text in to this.. is it really so bad? whats the fundamental interaction flaw? For me own learning I like to understand -why- things are poor, not just point at them and smile. So, you're insight would be of great value. thanks - pauric . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Posted from the new ixda.org http://gamma.ixda.org/discuss?post=23078 *Come to IxDA Interaction08 | Savannah* February 8-10, 2008 in Savannah, GA, USA Register today: http://interaction08.ixda.org/ Welcome to the Interaction Design Association (IxDA)! To post to this list ... [EMAIL PROTECTED] Unsubscribe http://www.ixda.org/unsubscribe List Guidelines http://www.ixda.org/guidelines List Help .. http://www.ixda.org/help
Re: [IxDA Discuss] Some form fun, to lighten the mood
My only problem with it is that it could make you enter the same information (spouse and dependent names) up to three times, when it could just ask for it once and let you select them from a list later on down the form. Also, the insurer information fields could inherit, as well (might have the same carrier for medical/dental/vision, tho that's not guaranteed). I see your point tho, selecting all the radio buttons checkboxes is a worst-case scenario, and it could be most folks use only one part of this form and never have to experience the full cascading form. I like the subdued little R symbols for required although I wasn't sure what they meant until I found the key at the top. Funny, but if you click download form in the top right corner, you'll find the actual form looks shorter and easier to fill out by hand...it might actually BE easier to fill out, if it weren't for the need to fax it back in again. Of course, they don't tell you what to do with the downloaded form once you fill it out. Bryan http://www.bryanminihan.com -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of pauric Sent: Thursday, November 29, 2007 5:47 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [IxDA Discuss] Some form fun, to lighten the mood Its the 'vertical wizard' pattern. Robert:No need to type anything. While I dont disagree that its not the best form in the world and would be better suited with a traditional multi page wizard. In your view, if someone was actually entering text in to this.. is it really so bad? whats the fundamental interaction flaw? For me own learning I like to understand -why- things are poor, not just point at them and smile. So, you're insight would be of great value. thanks - pauric . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Posted from the new ixda.org http://gamma.ixda.org/discuss?post=23078 *Come to IxDA Interaction08 | Savannah* February 8-10, 2008 in Savannah, GA, USA Register today: http://interaction08.ixda.org/ Welcome to the Interaction Design Association (IxDA)! To post to this list ... [EMAIL PROTECTED] Unsubscribe http://www.ixda.org/unsubscribe List Guidelines http://www.ixda.org/guidelines List Help .. http://www.ixda.org/help *Come to IxDA Interaction08 | Savannah* February 8-10, 2008 in Savannah, GA, USA Register today: http://interaction08.ixda.org/ Welcome to the Interaction Design Association (IxDA)! To post to this list ... [EMAIL PROTECTED] Unsubscribe http://www.ixda.org/unsubscribe List Guidelines http://www.ixda.org/guidelines List Help .. http://www.ixda.org/help
Re: [IxDA Discuss] Some form fun, to lighten the mood
Its the 'vertical wizard' pattern. Hehe! In your view, if someone was actually entering text in to this.. is it really so bad? whats the fundamental interaction flaw? Great question. Basically, it completely fails to set clear expectations for users. You arrive at the page and are immediately tricked into believing the form is comprised of only a few radio buttons. As you choose Yes to the initial three questions, the form grows, and as you check more checkboxes, it keeps growing. So what appears to be a very simple form quickly turns into a major time-sucker. Also, it doesn't explain what kinds of information you need to have handy to answer the questions. Odds are, you won't know policy numbers and effective dates and such off the top of their heads, so you start filling out the form and find yourself needing to go dig stuff out of a filing cabinet somewhere. As you progress, you may need to make several more trips to the filing cabinet. Because everything is hidden by default, you have no idea what you're getting into. It doesn't offer the slightest clue about how much work is left to complete the process. Anyone else have some thoughts on this? -r- *Come to IxDA Interaction08 | Savannah* February 8-10, 2008 in Savannah, GA, USA Register today: http://interaction08.ixda.org/ Welcome to the Interaction Design Association (IxDA)! To post to this list ... [EMAIL PROTECTED] Unsubscribe http://www.ixda.org/unsubscribe List Guidelines http://www.ixda.org/guidelines List Help .. http://www.ixda.org/help
Re: [IxDA Discuss] Some form fun, to lighten the mood
On Thu, 29 Nov 2007 05:47:29, pauric [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: While I dont disagree that its not the best form in the world and would be better suited with a traditional multi page wizard. In your view, if someone was actually entering text in to this.. is it really so bad? whats the fundamental interaction flaw? When I went to that link and followed Robert's instructions and more and more fields kept popping up I, who was not even filling it out, started to get impatient. How much more is there to this? I asked myself. And it kept coming. And then a song popped into my head: This is the form that ne-ver ends La la la la la la This is the form that ne-ver ends Etc. And now it's stuck there. Argh. Anyway, what's wrong with this pattern is that it is inappropriate for the audience the form is meant to serve, senior citizens (it deals with medicare and medicaid). Anyone who has tested with users 60+ years old will tell you that a common trait this group has is that they read EVERYTHING on the page before taking an action. So when you have all this junk on one page it's going to take them forever to complete it. Here's an example of how a designer (yes, a graphic designer!) at my previous place of employment solved a similar problem: *sigh* Someone redesigned the site and really made it awful. And they removed this interaction I wanted to show. Anyway, the old Medicare Physician Directory on UHC.com was a physician finder that asked seniors about what they were looking for one question at a time. All that was on a page was question text, a form field, and continue and go back buttons. Yes, for most of us that would be very tedious, but it tested incredibly well *with its intended audience.* The designer's original design was more like a simple wizard (with several fields for each of just a few steps), but observing the comprehensive reading behavior led him to this step-by-step approach. It's all about context... - Fred *Come to IxDA Interaction08 | Savannah* February 8-10, 2008 in Savannah, GA, USA Register today: http://interaction08.ixda.org/ Welcome to the Interaction Design Association (IxDA)! To post to this list ... [EMAIL PROTECTED] Unsubscribe http://www.ixda.org/unsubscribe List Guidelines http://www.ixda.org/guidelines List Help .. http://www.ixda.org/help
Re: [IxDA Discuss] Some form fun, to lighten the mood
Robert: Every time another section of the form is revealed, your heart sinks a little more. I agree. Thats the point I was hoping to explore a little. I come across people that both like of loathe the magical appearing form divs. Is the 'heart sinking' the designer in us or a proper usability issue? I personally dislike them but havent nailed down a solid usability argument against the design Robert highlighted. Lets put aside the fact that with a little thought the online form could be as succinct as the pdf. Let say the choice was a single ever expanding page or a multistage wizard (right xor choice??? another option?) then is a multistage wizard not conceptually the same thing - no real end in sight except some arbitrary progress bar? for the record I prefer to create wizards, but it would be great to have a solid argument for them to back up my choices. thanks for your thoughts on this folks - regards , pauric *Come to IxDA Interaction08 | Savannah* February 8-10, 2008 in Savannah, GA, USA Register today: http://interaction08.ixda.org/ Welcome to the Interaction Design Association (IxDA)! To post to this list ... [EMAIL PROTECTED] Unsubscribe http://www.ixda.org/unsubscribe List Guidelines http://www.ixda.org/guidelines List Help .. http://www.ixda.org/help
Re: [IxDA Discuss] Some form fun, to lighten the mood
I personally dislike them but havent nailed down a solid usability argument against the design Robert highlighted. I don't think it's so much a usability issue, per se. It's an experience issue. I'm sure many people can *use* the form just fine, but the experience of doing so is rather frustrating. It's the emotional aspect I'm concerned about. A form shouldn't crush a person's sense of progress or accomplishment. then is a multistage wizard not conceptually the same thing - no real end in sight except some arbitrary progress bar? Progress bars (or progress thermometers as they are sometimes referred) are not arbitrary. They serve as indicators of how a process is chunked, and set clear expectations for users. They can easily see that there are, say, four steps and that they're on Step 2. This simple clarification makes a world of difference. Imagine you're an expert carpenter and you're building a treehouse. You know you need to design it, take measurements, go buy the lumber and nails and such, cut up the wood, and put it together. This may be a complicated process, but you have a good idea of what you're getting into. Now imagine you have no idea how to build a treehouse and you fumble your way through each of these steps, asking the staff at Home Depot every time you get stuck, every time learning that there are more and more steps, and never knowing when the end of the process will come. The trick is to make the user feel confident. You want to make her feel like an expert who can get through a form with no problem. You don't want her to feel like constantly-surprised novice carpenter. (Weird analogy, but it was the first thing that popped in my head.) -r- *Come to IxDA Interaction08 | Savannah* February 8-10, 2008 in Savannah, GA, USA Register today: http://interaction08.ixda.org/ Welcome to the Interaction Design Association (IxDA)! To post to this list ... [EMAIL PROTECTED] Unsubscribe http://www.ixda.org/unsubscribe List Guidelines http://www.ixda.org/guidelines List Help .. http://www.ixda.org/help
Re: [IxDA Discuss] Some form fun, to lighten the mood
On Nov 29, 2007 8:38 AM, Bryan Minihan [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: My only problem with it is that it could make you enter the same information (spouse and dependent names) up to three times, when it could just ask for it once and let you select them from a list later on down the form. Perhaps your spouse as you begin the form isn't your spouse when you're finally finished with it? And maybe they should also ask for your address several times, in case you move before you're done. :-) Michael Micheletti *Come to IxDA Interaction08 | Savannah* February 8-10, 2008 in Savannah, GA, USA Register today: http://interaction08.ixda.org/ Welcome to the Interaction Design Association (IxDA)! To post to this list ... [EMAIL PROTECTED] Unsubscribe http://www.ixda.org/unsubscribe List Guidelines http://www.ixda.org/guidelines List Help .. http://www.ixda.org/help
Re: [IxDA Discuss] Some form fun, to lighten the mood
My point of view is that this kind of form is the typical one that needs to be made in steps, 3 by the way. The first page is ok. If the user clicks yes in a category, the validation button brings him to the step needed to gather the information of the category where he clicked yes. Sorry for my english, I hope you understand the point. And sorry for the noise. -- Cedric Magnin *Come to IxDA Interaction08 | Savannah* February 8-10, 2008 in Savannah, GA, USA Register today: http://interaction08.ixda.org/ Welcome to the Interaction Design Association (IxDA)! To post to this list ... [EMAIL PROTECTED] Unsubscribe http://www.ixda.org/unsubscribe List Guidelines http://www.ixda.org/guidelines List Help .. http://www.ixda.org/help
Re: [IxDA Discuss] Some form fun, to lighten the mood
My issue with the form is its misrepresentation to the user. At first glance you decide or estimate the time investment to complete the screen. Slight modifications or an increase is expected, so I would not be too put off by a few extra fields to fill out. What is unacceptable in my eyes, is the length and lack of feedback. It seemed an unending process, similar to the form version of matryoshka dolls. On Nov 29, 2007, at 5:47 AM, pauric wrote: ... For me own learning I like to understand -why- things are poor, not just point at them and smile. So, you're insight would be of great value. thanks - pauric *Come to IxDA Interaction08 | Savannah* February 8-10, 2008 in Savannah, GA, USA Register today: http://interaction08.ixda.org/ Welcome to the Interaction Design Association (IxDA)! To post to this list ... [EMAIL PROTECTED] Unsubscribe http://www.ixda.org/unsubscribe List Guidelines http://www.ixda.org/guidelines List Help .. http://www.ixda.org/help
Re: [IxDA Discuss] Some form fun, to lighten the mood
A lot of great responses regarding how to make this interface better. I agree with making it multi-step via wizard. Honestly, I was so focused on the disappearing check boxes that I didn't even read the div that appeared below the checked box. I wanted to first figure out what happened to my check boxes. If I was doing the talk-aloud test here is what it would sound like: (mumble, mumble - reading to self first set of instructions.) Okay, Yes. (Selecting Yes) (mumble, mumble, Medical, Dental, Vision) All three, so let me click them. (Checking Medical) Hey! Where did the rest of them go! (Unchecking Medical) Oh, there they are, let me click Dental. (Checking Dental) Dammit! Now Vision is gone! Alright, let me uncheck it. (Unchecking Dental) Alright, starting from the bottom, now, check vision, dental, and now medial. HAHA! Got them before they disappeared! (reading next section) Oh, that's why it was gone, it moved down. Well, I don't even want to finish this form anymore. (runs off pouting) Okay, so I'm not the typical user ever since I entered into the UX realm. But still, I feel so violated. (I don't post much but I read these posts daily.) . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Posted from the new ixda.org http://www.ixda.org/discuss?post=23078 *Come to IxDA Interaction08 | Savannah* February 8-10, 2008 in Savannah, GA, USA Register today: http://interaction08.ixda.org/ Welcome to the Interaction Design Association (IxDA)! To post to this list ... [EMAIL PROTECTED] Unsubscribe http://www.ixda.org/unsubscribe List Guidelines http://www.ixda.org/guidelines List Help .. http://www.ixda.org/help
Re: [IxDA Discuss] Some form fun, to lighten the mood
So, can this thread be used to illustrate an example of what is NOT User Centered Design, a topic being discussed in another thread? Which brings up an interesting design issue. Is there any tool that allows discussion threads to flow like rivers, connecting at times, and then flowing off in different directions if the contact is only temporary? Yeah, I know this can be done manually and mentally, but is front end, or an applet that can be, say, embedded in Gmail as well as other mail clients, which allows you to drag two threads together and connect them visually, so that anyone who wishes can travel back up both tributaries if they wish? [Now, chances are, with such busy threads and such busy people, nobody really has the time or desire to go back up a thread, but there might be some context in which this sort of structural feature is useful.] -murli *Come to IxDA Interaction08 | Savannah* February 8-10, 2008 in Savannah, GA, USA Register today: http://interaction08.ixda.org/ Welcome to the Interaction Design Association (IxDA)! To post to this list ... [EMAIL PROTECTED] Unsubscribe http://www.ixda.org/unsubscribe List Guidelines http://www.ixda.org/guidelines List Help .. http://www.ixda.org/help
Re: [IxDA Discuss] Some form fun, to lighten the mood
Oh, that's why it was gone, it moved down. Well, I don't even want to finish this form anymore. Beautiful simulation! -r- *Come to IxDA Interaction08 | Savannah* February 8-10, 2008 in Savannah, GA, USA Register today: http://interaction08.ixda.org/ Welcome to the Interaction Design Association (IxDA)! To post to this list ... [EMAIL PROTECTED] Unsubscribe http://www.ixda.org/unsubscribe List Guidelines http://www.ixda.org/guidelines List Help .. http://www.ixda.org/help
Re: [IxDA Discuss] Some form fun, to lighten the mood
Murli: Is there any tool that allows discussion threads to flow like rivers, connecting at times, and then flowing off in different directions Not exactly related to discussion threads but your question reminded me of the interaction on http://www.liveplasma.com/ Enter in an artist and then you can follow the connection around. Each time you click on a new datapoint, the context changes. Using that as a visual model for your design issue. The datapoints are posts, I can then copy-past a section of a post and create a response. This forms a link. Links could also be represented by common tags. The solution would require a new and complex type of recommendation engine as a large 'thread' would become static noise very quickly as I think you allude too: busy threads and such busy people, nobody really has the time or desire to go back up a thread Nor would they see new posts in a multithreading conversation... . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Posted from the new ixda.org http://gamma.ixda.org/discuss?post=23078 *Come to IxDA Interaction08 | Savannah* February 8-10, 2008 in Savannah, GA, USA Register today: http://interaction08.ixda.org/ Welcome to the Interaction Design Association (IxDA)! To post to this list ... [EMAIL PROTECTED] Unsubscribe http://www.ixda.org/unsubscribe List Guidelines http://www.ixda.org/guidelines List Help .. http://www.ixda.org/help
Re: [IxDA Discuss] Some form fun, to lighten the mood
Yes. The disappearing checkboxes are the weirdest part of this. It's also a great example of how confusing the colored sections are. At first I thought brown meant conditional questions, but I guess it's really alternating row colors. Eric . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Posted from the new ixda.org http://www.ixda.org/discuss?post=23078 *Come to IxDA Interaction08 | Savannah* February 8-10, 2008 in Savannah, GA, USA Register today: http://interaction08.ixda.org/ Welcome to the Interaction Design Association (IxDA)! To post to this list ... [EMAIL PROTECTED] Unsubscribe http://www.ixda.org/unsubscribe List Guidelines http://www.ixda.org/guidelines List Help .. http://www.ixda.org/help
Re: [IxDA Discuss] Some form fun, to lighten the mood
Awesome. I was laughing on that one. You know you've got problems on your hands when your test participants resort to profanity. On Thu, 29 Nov 2007 10:00:33, Patricia Garcia [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: A lot of great responses regarding how to make this interface better. I agree with making it multi-step via wizard. Honestly, I was so focused on the disappearing check boxes that I didn't even read the div that appeared below the checked box. I wanted to first figure out what happened to my check boxes. If I was doing the talk-aloud test here is what it would sound like: (mumble, mumble - reading to self first set of instructions.) Okay, Yes. (Selecting Yes) (mumble, mumble, Medical, Dental, Vision) All three, so let me click them. (Checking Medical) Hey! Where did the rest of them go! (Unchecking Medical) Oh, there they are, let me click Dental. (Checking Dental) Dammit! Now Vision is gone! Alright, let me uncheck it. (Unchecking Dental) Alright, starting from the bottom, now, check vision, dental, and now medial. HAHA! Got them before they disappeared! (reading next section) Oh, that's why it was gone, it moved down. Well, I don't even want to finish this form anymore. (runs off pouting) Okay, so I'm not the typical user ever since I entered into the UX realm. But still, I feel so violated. (I don't post much but I read these posts daily.) . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Posted from the new ixda.org http://www.ixda.org/discuss?post=23078 *Come to IxDA Interaction08 | Savannah* February 8-10, 2008 in Savannah, GA, USA Register today: http://interaction08.ixda.org/ Welcome to the Interaction Design Association (IxDA)! To post to this list ... [EMAIL PROTECTED] Unsubscribe http://www.ixda.org/unsubscribe List Guidelines http://www.ixda.org/guidelines List Help .. http://www.ixda.org/help *Come to IxDA Interaction08 | Savannah* February 8-10, 2008 in Savannah, GA, USA Register today: http://interaction08.ixda.org/ Welcome to the Interaction Design Association (IxDA)! To post to this list ... [EMAIL PROTECTED] Unsubscribe http://www.ixda.org/unsubscribe List Guidelines http://www.ixda.org/guidelines List Help .. http://www.ixda.org/help
