Re: [slim] Meridian MQA - Breakthrough? LMS possible?

[Mnyb]

toby10 wrote: 
> Asking for someone to develop an app/plugin for a discontinued product
> line that was a niche product to begin with.  Further narrow down this
> small niche market for the very few who want MQA.  Extremely small
> market, licensing issues, questionable gains, lot of time involved to
> write/maintain it, niche product streaming a niche format, etc...  How
> does one monetize that to make it worth their while?
> 
> Even in here, the single most active SB user & enthusiasts forum out
> there, and there is very little interest.

" Yes ".

But i do wonder how the non MQA hifi subscription will work , its the
same subcription but what do we get with non MQA equipment .
If it is as good as it was before MQA then it just nothing new . But if
the implementation is such that without MQA you get sligthy worse
quality than the good old 16/44.1 HiFi subscription :/
Then it migth bee a need to avoid the drawbacks of not using the codec
rather than reap the questionable benefits (if they exists ) :/

There are two gruops .

For the oficial Tidal app it's probably Mherger ? (there is only one ,
sounds a lot like highlander ... :D )

The ickstream app ,remd ,pippin ,erland ?

A good Topic Question would be is there any consequnce of MQA
implentation in Tidal that we need to adress in the current plugins ? Is
something to be done to maintain these plugins as good as they are ?

Avoiding regression migth peak more intrest than a new feature ?




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Re: [slim] Meridian MQA - Breakthrough? LMS possible?

[toby10]

R1200CL wrote: 
> Based on what ?

Asking for someone to develop an app/plugin for a discontinued product
line that was a niche product to begin with.  Further narrow down this
small niche market for the very few who want MQA.  Extremely small
market, licensing issues, questionable gains, lot of time involved to
write/maintain it, niche product streaming a niche format, etc...  How
does one monetize that to make it worth their while?

Even in here, the single most active SB user & enthusiasts forum out
there, and there is very little interest.



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Re: [slim] Meridian MQA - Breakthrough? LMS possible?

[Julf]

R1200CL wrote: 
> Based on what ?

Based on it not being a technical problem, but a licensing/business
strategy problem.



"To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this
fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt
edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953

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Re: [slim] Meridian MQA - Breakthrough? LMS possible?

[Mnyb]

Apesbrain wrote: 
> Can't MQA be digitally passed through Squeezebox so long as volume is
> locked at 100%?  Of course, you'd need to have an MQA-capable DAC to
> "unfold" it.

Thats proven to work with files , the current Tidal app at
mysqueezebox.com does not do this alledgedly ? I dont know about the
ickstream app ?




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Re: [slim] Meridian MQA - Breakthrough? LMS possible?

[Apesbrain]

Can't MQA be digitally passed through Squeezebox so long as volume is
locked at 100%?  Of course, you'd need to have an MQA-capable DAC to
"unfold" it.



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Re: [slim] Meridian MQA - Breakthrough? LMS possible?

[R1200CL]

toby10 wrote: 
> yes

Based on what ?



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Re: [slim] Meridian MQA - Breakthrough? LMS possible?

[toby10]

R1200CL wrote: 
>   Is it just to forget ?

yes



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Re: [slim] Meridian MQA - Breakthrough? LMS possible?

[R1200CL]

With the latest release of MQA, it should technically be possible to
upgrade SBT to support MQA. (The analog part)

But how can it be done, and who can look into this, and how do we
finance such an option ?

Is it just to forget ?



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Re: [slim] Meridian MQA - Breakthrough? LMS possible?

[Soli]

Ins236 wrote: 
> MQA has closed source libraries for most intel & arm linux platforms
> 
> One manufacturer of music servers in this list is selling the open
> source MPD (music player daemon) as their own player without telling
> their customers. The customers box does not include the GPL license or
> modified source code. Same applies for the website and manuals: it's all
> hidden from the audiophile buyer that they use an existing OSS player.
> 
> They have announced to decode MQA in their products, which means they
> will add the closed source decoder to MPD 0.17 which they use, as
> there's no other way to decode MQA from within MPD (mpd is both server
> and player in one binary). MPD can't call an external player to do the
> work, all new formats and decoders have to be added to the decoderlist
> files in the source tree.
> 
> So even though it is closed software, as soon as you integrate closed
> software like MQA into GPLv2 or v3, the whole modified work has to be
> released under the GPL.
> So as soon as someone makes this mistake, you can obtain the source as
> it is a derived work.
Both Auralic (0.18.x) and Aurender (0.17.x) are using MPD. I have looked
briefly at Aurenders source and they are using a couple of exec calls to
circumvent the GPL on *some* things. i cannot say for certain that this
is the case with all of their code. (Tidal integration and other stuff)

Auralic are denying that they use MPD but it's obvious that they do use
MPD since they forgot to change the client string. You can search for it
on the Minimserver forums. They are probably violating the GPL big time
in all sorts of manners and getting away with it. Anyways karma will
win, they'll get hit by a suit someday and that will be the end of the
company.



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Re: [slim] Meridian MQA - Breakthrough? LMS possible?

[gplrender]

I have done a technical analysis of the first MQA decoder for linux,
will post it in the next post, as my first post is not allowed to have
external URL's.



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Re: [slim] Meridian MQA - Breakthrough? LMS possible?

[Mnyb]

Julf wrote: 
> Not sure - is there really enough interest and motivation?

I dont know , but its not an encrytion algorithm its designed to decode
varius inputs from unknown sources on varius playback systems , so its a
codec . My personal -guess- is that it does not obfuscate that much .

But its not the same demands as to look at movies or hear radio on non
suported platforms :) that really drives reverse engineering , like DVD
did .

If its to hard there would not be enough interest and motivation .




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Re: [slim] Meridian MQA - Breakthrough? LMS possible?

[Julf]

Mnyb wrote: 
> As the MQA algortitm has a known input and output so it can be reverse
> engineered . We will probably at some point have a reverse engineered
> library.

Not sure - is there really enough interest and motivation?



"To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this
fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt
edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953

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Re: [slim] Meridian MQA - Breakthrough? LMS possible?

[Mnyb]

As the MQA algortitm has a known input and output so it can be reverse
engineered . We will probably at some point have a reverse engineered
library .

In the past with MLP Meridian liaison with Dolby and now its trued-HD or
something .

So there is some kind of MQA consosrtium , maybe partly to be able to
step in such matters to enforce rigths .

Dolby get their due from the chip makers and most audio brands ,with the
probable exception of some Chinese made dvd players etc , they don’t
care much for "patent" "license" copying was/is rampant .

That leads to for example ffmpeg who clearly do AC3 audio aka Dolby
Digital ? so this is not unheard off ? how does it do that . So this is
a situation similar to libpsotify except no one knows if dolby is
involved or if its reverse engineered.
Seems like many libraries for linux audio contains truckloads of reverse
engineered codecs ? Libavconv ?

I tried to figure out but it becomes complicated well above my pay grade
https://www.ffmpeg.org/legal.html

A kind of grey area where things sometimes go under the radar .

But I think it can heat up in audio products .

If some one makes a multimedia streamers who really is a small linux box
running mpd or squeezelite or anything and sell it as a pre-packed
product . Then I think Dolby ,MQA , DTS et all want thier money and you
to put their sticker on the front .




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Re: [slim] Meridian MQA - Breakthrough? LMS possible?

[bpa]

At a guess Meridian could use the Spotify and libspotify as a "template"
for their library.  Libspotify seems to have been used and no litigation
although IIRC libspotify availability may have been "forced" becuase
there was a reverse engineering library and spotify was then small and
probably couldn't afford financially or reputationally a law suit



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Re: [slim] Meridian MQA - Breakthrough? LMS possible?

[Julf]

Mnyb wrote: 
> But if a third party ,read anyone just grabs a closed source binary out
> of the blue without the knowledge of the originator of the software
> include it in some projekt where it should not be ,the original maker of
> the code can not be responsible in any way ? that would be silly ?

Indeed. Just because someone violates the GPL doesn't mean that somebody
else's code (that happens to be included) suddenly and magically becomes
open source.



"To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this
fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt
edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953

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Re: [slim] Meridian MQA - Breakthrough? LMS possible?

[Mnyb]

Ins236 wrote: 
> 
> 
> So even though it is closed software, as soon as you integrate closed
> software like MQA into GPLv2 or v3, the whole modified work has to be
> released under the GPL.
> So as soon as someone makes this mistake, you can obtain the source as
> it is a derived work.

Ins236 wrote: 
> Even if money was no object, it would still be impossible because of the
> GPL.
> 
> One of the MQA partners is using MPD 0.17 in their products (which
> cannot contain closed source according to Max Kellermann, see this post
> http://mpd-devel.musicpd.narkive.com/Hwoeiqro/possible-gpl-violation-by-pika-technologies-inc
> ). You just can't link MPD to a closed source MQA decoder library, as
> the GPLv2 which applies to the old MPD 0.17 as used by this vendor
> cannot work together with closed source or pattented software without
> violating the GPL.

Julf wrote: 
> Only if you win a long, nasty and expensive law case...

I'll doubt it altogether .

If Meridian themselves did that, included some closed source MQA code in
a project of this kind , it kind of holds ? I'm no practitioner of law
or anything . But entirely possible .
Or anyone specifically writes code and then include into GPL project
without sources , they are probably acountable in some way , violating
license or whatnot ?

But if a third party ,read anyone just grabs a closed source binary out
of the blue without the knowledge of the originator of the software
include it in some projekt where it should not be ,the original maker of
the code can not be responsible in any way ? that would be silly ? If
that where the case there would be no closed source code left ? Just
throw bit of desirable code into a random GPL projekt and bob's your
uncle :) What more likely is that that peice of code had to be removed
from the project altogether .

If you borrow my car and run over someone I’m not a part of that .




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Re: [slim] Meridian MQA - Breakthrough? LMS possible?

[Julf]

Ins236 wrote: 
> So as soon as someone makes this mistake, you can obtain the source as
> it is a derived work.

Only if you win a long, nasty and expensive law case...



"To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this
fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt
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Re: [slim] Meridian MQA - Breakthrough? LMS possible?

[Ins236]

Julf wrote: 
> There is probably a steep licensing fee, as well as NDAs, making an open
> source implementation unlikely.

One of the MQA partners is using MPD 0.17 in their products (which
cannot contain closed source according to Max Kellermann, see this post
http://mpd-devel.musicpd.narkive.com/Hwoeiqro/possible-gpl-violation-by-pika-technologies-inc
). You just can't link MPD to a closed source MQA decoder library, as
the GPLv2 which applies to the old MPD 0.17 as used by this vendor
cannot work together with closed source or pattented software.



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Re: [slim] Meridian MQA - Breakthrough? LMS possible?

[Ins236]

As I cannot put a link in my first post, here's the link with the closed
source MQA libraries and which platforms they already have a build for:

http://audioxpress.com/article/Master-Quality-Authenticated-MQA-Launches-Major-Partnerships-and-New-Development-Platforms-at-CES-2016.html



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Re: [slim] Meridian MQA - Breakthrough? LMS possible?

[Ins236]

Julf wrote: 
> Closed binary software, as long as you pay licence fee.

MQA has closed source libraries for most intel & arm linux platforms

One manufacturer of music servers in this list is selling the open
source MPD (music player daemon) as their own player without telling
their customers. The customers box does not include the GPL license or
modified source code. Same applies for the website and manuals: it's all
hidden from the audiohile buyer that they use an existing OSS player.

They have announced to decode MQA in their products, which means they
will add the closed source decoder to MPD 0.17 which they use, as
there's no other way to decode MQA from within MPD (mpd is both server
and player in one binary). MPD can't call an external player to do the
work, all new formats and decoders have to be added to the decoderlist
files in the source tree.

So even though it is closed software, as soon as you integrate closed
software like MQA into GPLv2 or v3, the whole modified work has to be
released under the GPL.
So as soon as someone makes this mistake, you can obtain the source as
it is a derived work.



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Re: [slim] Meridian MQA - Breakthrough? LMS possible?

[R1200CL]

http://www.computeraudiophile.com/f8-general-forum/your-chance-ask-bob-stuart-anything-about-mqa-27412/



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Re: [slim] Meridian MQA - Breakthrough? LMS possible?

[Rainer M Krug]

R1200CL  writes:

> http://www.digitalaudioreview.net/2016/01/mqa-promises-something-for-everyone/

Hm.

So in theory, if I

a) Rip a CD
b) know the AD converter used for the conversion to digital
c) I could theoretically (if I would have the software) make the MQA
correction? 


>
>
> 
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-- 
Rainer M. Krug
email: Rainerkrugsde
PGP: 0x0F52F982


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Re: [slim] Meridian MQA - Breakthrough? LMS possible?

[alverus]

This sounds a little bit like magic and fairy-dust to me.

A algorithm which could guess how to improve sound sounds like the Holy
Grail of maths.
But I don't believe in holy things, I believe in science. And this
sounds not like things work...
Also the author didn't make it better by propagating that it would sound
so much better the non MQA audio... 
Come on, for Audiophiles, it seems to me, that every little 'shit' is a
whole universe of distance...

Bye

Alverus



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Re: [slim] Meridian MQA - Breakthrough? LMS possible?

[Mnyb]

rkrug wrote: 
> R1200CL 
> writes:
> 
> >
> http://www.digitalaudioreview.net/2016/01/mqa-promises-something-for-everyone/
> 
> Hm.
> 
> So in theory, if I
> 
> a) Rip a CD
> b) know the AD converter used for the conversion to digital
> c) I could theoretically (if I would have the software) make the MQA
> correction? 
> 
> 
> >
> >
> >
> 
> > R1200CL's Profile:
> http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=63832
> > View this thread:
> http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=102648
> >
> > 

I think the best result comes ( if any at all ) if the source is a hirez
master of some sort . So the master -and the whole production - shall
ideally be 24/96 or better .

For CD quality we can just assume that the software used to resample and
dither to 16/44.1 does it job as it always has .
So is MQA really targeted at this application ? Of course they want us
to use it for everything...

It all hinges around two beliefs that actually are not proved at all .

Apodising filters or similar is better .

>16/44.1 is needed for a consumer distribution format .

In that case MQA does actually work it preserves >20 kHz information in
a compact format with a gentle roll of .

And I assume some further magic can be done if the function of the ADC
filter is known , but I think this can be a logical trap once the signal
is bandwith limited the information is truly lost and you could arrive
at the same limited signal by many means.
However some optimisation can probably be done . For example an ever
gentler filter function in MQA algorithms if you know what the ADC did
etc .




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Re: [slim] Meridian MQA - Breakthrough? LMS possible?

[cdmackay]

http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?105070-A-Look-at-MQA



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Re: [slim] Meridian MQA - Breakthrough? LMS possible?

[R1200CL]

http://www.digitalaudioreview.net/2016/01/mqa-promises-something-for-everyone/



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Re: [slim] Meridian MQA - Breakthrough? LMS possible?

[R1200CL]

Julf wrote: 
> Right - it is really a non-issue. Either no adaptations are needed (and
> MQA is handled in the DAC) or somebody would have to license the
> proprietary technology and implement it in LMS (and I am pretty sure you
> wouldn't be allowed to implement it as part of open-source software), so
> no go.

Maybe Roon can be a solution, as they like to support MQA if allowed.
Roon support will not cost extra. 

Squeezebox Touch works with Roon today. I've not tested.
http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?104044-Roon-a-SqueezeBox-ecosystem-alternative/page5

Also IckStream is an option. 
https://forum.ickstream.com/viewtopic.php?f=11=600



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Re: [slim] Meridian MQA - Breakthrough? LMS possible?

[Julf]

R1200CL wrote: 
> According to MQA website SW implementation will be a option.

Closed binary software, as long as you pay licence fee.



"To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this
fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt
edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953

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Re: [slim] Meridian MQA - Breakthrough? LMS possible?

[Mnyb]

Furry wrote: 
> I'm not sure anyone has been, yet; the subject of this thread seems to
> ask two questions, but the discussion seems (so far) to only be about
> the first; 'Breakthrough?'.  Setting aside the debate about whether or
> not MQA is cynical proprietary-format snake-oil and/or a DRM vehicle,
> for a while, what about the second question: 'LMS possible?'.
> 
> How would LMS handle MQA, if Tidal does eventually stream MQA?  Would it
> pass it through to an MQA-supporting DAC? (e.g. Meridian Explorer 2
> hanging off a RPi?), or would (could) it process/convert MQA to
> PCM/FLAC?  I guess a plugin would be required for the second case, but
> what about the first, for 'pass-through'?

Pass trough would actually work rigth now as the LMS system is today
without any changes. That's why how tidal for example will implement it
becomes interesting . The MQA info is coded into normal PCM so a wav or
flac file or in some kind of stream then again it becomes interesting
how they intend to do it ...




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Re: [slim] Meridian MQA - Breakthrough? LMS possible?

[Furry]

Mnyb wrote: 
> Pass trough would actually work rigth now as the LMS system is today
> without any changes. That's why how tidal for example will implement it
> becomes interesting . The MQA info is coded into normal PCM so a wav or
> flac file or in some kind of stream then again it becomes interesting
> how they intend to do it ...

Thanks for quick reply, Mnyb!  (I was still editing my post, although no
significant change).



Living room: SB Touch, with coax to: Marantz PM7005, TDL RTL3 speakers.
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Re: [slim] Meridian MQA - Breakthrough? LMS possible?

[Julf]

Furry wrote: 
> I guess a plugin would be required for the second case (and is it even
> feasible that LMS would be 'allowed' or able to decode MQA?), but what
> about the first, for 'pass-through'?

Right - it is really a non-issue. Either no adaptations are needed (and
MQA is handled in the DAC) or somebody would have to license the
proprietary technology and implement it in LMS (and I am pretty sure you
wouldn't be allowed to implement it as part of open-source software), so
no go.



"To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this
fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt
edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953

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Re: [slim] Meridian MQA - Breakthrough? LMS possible?

[Furry]

Mnyb wrote: 
> Hopefully someone can be on topic on actual squeezebox implementations
> of services with MQA , in the case of actually using it or safely bypass
> it , either way is a solution ( you can still use whatever service it's
> about ).

I'm not sure anyone has been, yet; the subject of this thread seems to
ask two questions, but the discussion seems (so far) to only be about
the first; 'Breakthrough?'.  Setting aside the debate about whether or
not MQA is cynical proprietary-format snake-oil and/or a DRM vehicle,
for a while, what about the second question: 'LMS possible?'.

How would LMS handle MQA, if Tidal does eventually stream MQA?  Would it
pass it through to an MQA-supporting DAC? (e.g. Meridian Explorer 2
hanging off a RPi?), or would (could) it process/convert MQA to
PCM/FLAC?  I guess a plugin would be required for the second case, but
what about the first, for 'pass-through'?



Living room: SB Touch, with coax to: Marantz PM7005, TDL RTL3 speakers.
Dining room: SB Boom.
Kitchen: SB Radio (1/3), with battery.
Bedroom 1: SB Radio (2/3), no battery.
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Re: [slim] Meridian MQA - Breakthrough? LMS possible?

[Mnyb]

The most missleading part imo is that is no such thing as squarewaves in
instruments ? show me an instrument with infinite freq response .

How much transient the signal is , its always a slope somewhere .

The Squarewave is simply a test signal and it should look like that .
And the impulse response curve that very popular, is that not also a
test signal ? nothing in nature does that either , a single positive
impulse ?




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Re: [slim] Meridian MQA - Breakthrough? LMS possible?

[Julf]

Wombat wrote: 
> Creating the "fear of ringing" was one of the best marketing ideas for
> audio ever. Simple to show in misleading pics and offering a cure to the
> non-issue is a running gag for many years now.

Indeed. Looking at this picture:
'
19747

you can either see a perfectly normal square wave with harmonics above
the 5th cleanly removed by a perfect sinc convolution - or you could see
a horrible ringing that clearly must be audible.


+---+
|Filename: 640px-Gibbs_phenomenon_10.svg.png|
|Download: http://forums.slimdevices.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=19747|
+---+


"To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this
fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt
edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953

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Re: [slim] Meridian MQA - Breakthrough? LMS possible?

[kidstypike]

I think you guys need new glasses :rolleyes:


+---+
|Filename: bell.jpg |
|Download: http://forums.slimdevices.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=19748|
+---+


kidstypike 

LMS on Raspberry Pi 2 model B/max2play/HiFiBerry DAC+ > AVI DM5

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Re: [slim] Meridian MQA - Breakthrough? LMS possible?

[kidstypike]

Julf wrote: 
> Wow! Yes! Not only ringing, but asymmetric ringing - only on positive
> half-waves! 
> 
> Now, wait... Are those cowbells?

Dumb bells.



kidstypike 

LMS on Raspberry Pi 2 model B/max2play/HiFiBerry DAC+ > AVI DM5

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Re: [slim] Meridian MQA - Breakthrough? LMS possible?

[Mnyb]

Julf wrote: 
> Indeed. Looking at this picture:
> '
> 19747
> 
> you can either see a perfectly normal square wave with harmonics above
> the 5th cleanly removed by a perfect sinc convolution - or you could see
> a horrible ringing that clearly must be audible.

loks exactly as bandwith limited squarewave should ;)




Main hifi: Touch + CIA PS +MeridianG68J MeridianHD621 MeridianG98DH 2 x
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Misc use: Radio (with battery)
iPad1 with iPengHD & SqueezePad
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Re: [slim] Meridian MQA - Breakthrough? LMS possible?

[Julf]

kidstypike wrote: 
> I think you guys need new glasses :rolleyes:

Wow! Yes! Not only ringing, but asymmetric ringing - only on positive
half-waves! 

Now, wait... Are those cowbells?



"To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this
fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt
edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953

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Re: [slim] Meridian MQA - Breakthrough? LMS possible?

[Julf]

Mnyb wrote: 
> The most missleading part imo is that is no such thing as squarewaves in
> instruments ? show me an instrument with infinite freq response .
> 
> How much transient the signal is , its always a slope somewhere .
> 
> The Squarewave is simply a test signal and it should look like that .
> And the impulse response curve that very popular, is that not also a
> test signal ? nothing in nature does that either , a single positive
> impulse ?

The other thing is that a square wave looks very, very different (not
square at all) if you phase shift the harmonics. It still sounds exactly
the same. Eyes are not ears...



"To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this
fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt
edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953

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Re: [slim] Meridian MQA - Breakthrough? LMS possible?

[Wombat]

Mnyb wrote: 
> But the latest apodsing filter craze and this MQA thing ? Huh
Creating the "fear of ringing" was one of the best marketing ideas for
audio ever. Simple to show in misleading pics and offering a cure to the
non-issue is a running gag for many years now.



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Re: [slim] Meridian MQA - Breakthrough? LMS possible?

[Mnyb]

Probably flat then . meridian and mr Stuart can make you confused .
Sometimes they are very close to objective no nonsense science sometimes
not . For example the active speakers with crossovers and audio
processors works in 24/96 ( they accept 24/192 inputs ) as this is
deemed good enough forever and no DSD ! And actually promoting active
speakers for >25 years while the rest of audiophiledom has listened to
Nordost cables for 100k$ instead of fixing the real problem with
speakers

But the latest apodsing filter craze and this MQA thing ? Huh




Main hifi: Touch + CIA PS +MeridianG68J MeridianHD621 MeridianG98DH 2 x
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Misc use: Radio (with battery)
iPad1 with iPengHD & SqueezePad
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server HP proliant micro server N36L with ClearOS Linux

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Re: [slim] Meridian MQA - Breakthrough? LMS possible?

[Wombat]

Mnyb wrote: 
> Aha I missed your previous commnet that the noise added is the dither
> shape . That's better ?
> 
> So MQA adds a dither shape ?
It does truncate bit depth when creating the 16bit unencrypted contend
from HiBit. Maybe they use it also while applying their apodizing
lowpass on existing 16/44.1 material. 
Using dither is a must and using a noise shape is best practise. Good
noise shaped dither can raise the dynamic range before you hear the
noise of dither a lot. 
I am pretty sure there are not many recordings in the world that really
can stress the 16bit noisefloor then.
Good noiseshaping relates to the working of your ear, the ATH. HF noise
is less critical as it looks like spectral. You won't hear it.

Just for fun: http://www67.zippyshare.com/v/o4e9iWZY/file.html
It contains 2 silent files. One with flat dither and one with ugly
looking foobar noiseshaped dither! Already cranked up by +45dB!! Try to
hear the noise in your listening position and realize what of your
recordings you can listen with +45dB without your speakers explodes.

Mnyb wrote: 
> So the signal is properly resampled with dither to 16 bit in MQA . If
> you decode MQA data wold the dither shape curve continue >20 kHz .
No idea, this is still Top Secret.

Mnyb wrote: 
> The studio in most cases did use some dither in the 24 bit realm to ?
> But that is probably not preserved in the MQA process .
24bit dither is that low in level it doesn't really matter.

Mnyb wrote: 
> Meridian , do think that there is a "proper" dither shape some of thier
> older processors had several to choose from , but nowadays they use some
> unspecified shape as a part of thier secret sauce in thier audio gear .
> It's probably what I listen to everyday when using my digital volume
> control .
Your gear will most likely already work in 24bit. Even Meridian will use
flat dither for that.



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Re: [slim] Meridian MQA - Breakthrough? LMS possible?

[Julf]

cdmackay wrote: 
> why am I not surprised? :)

The upside is that HDtracks provides us with a big double-blind test. Do
we hear people saying "oh yes, tracks 5 and 6 on that album don't sound
a bit less hi-res than the others"? No. It is just people who look at
spectrograms who notice any difference. Do we hear a lot of "Oh, the
hi-res version sounds so much better" until it turns out the "hi-res" is
only upsampled (or even despite it). Yep, we do. Conclusions left to the
reader... :)



"To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this
fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt
edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953

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Re: [slim] Meridian MQA - Breakthrough? LMS possible?

[Wombat]

An authentic MQA button, impressive...
It seems several others do speculate about how it works. I have no idea
also but sill guess the magic with old material is really not more as
this apodizing. I have played with 2 files and the delta has some
cancelation at 12kHz i don't understand yet.
My guess is that the apodizer is linear to some point and changes phase
maybe from these 12kHz on!? It may also affect lower frequencies.
We know how people get horny about minimum phase and similar tricks. A
good move from a marketing perspective though. Many will hear the
'better' sound.
Very vague speculation. Sorry when i waste everyones time but since i
find no clarification that convinces me, i can't resist :)



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Re: [slim] Meridian MQA - Breakthrough? LMS possible?

[R1200CL]

DanSmedra wrote: 
> In case anyone missed the beta screen that slipped out at TIDAL, which
> was quickly removed. But someone got a screen capture.

So no one actually has the installation file ? It's from Tidal webpage ?



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Re: [slim] Meridian MQA - Breakthrough? LMS possible?

[Mnyb]

Wombat wrote: 
> Alert backwards. I was able to find a moment of pure silence in one of
> the sampletracks and it may be absolutely full 16bit left. It is really
> hard to find music that really needs that. In this case they seem to
> have left silence dither for a moment at the end of the file.
> It is nice shaped dither curve! In the pic above is the MQA noisefloor
> against iZotope 16bit silence. I forgot if that iZotope sample has the
> low or medium strong shape.
> Now take well shaped dither plus proper downsampling and the claim
> better as standard cd is not very far fetched. You seldom see noise
> shaped dither to maximize the dynamicrange on CDs. 
> It may look bad on spectral plots for some but that is how shape works,
> ATH in use.
> 19741

Aha I missed your previous commnet that the noise added is the dither
shape . That's better ?

So MQA adds a dither shape ?

So the signal is properly resampled with dither to 16 bit in MQA . If
you decode MQA data wold the dither shape curve continue >20 kHz .

The studio in most cases did use some dither in the 24 bit realm to ?
But that is probably not preserved in the MQA process .

Meridian , do think that there is a "proper" dither shape some of thier
older processors had several to choose from , but nowadays they use some
unspecified shape as a part of thier secret sauce in thier audio gear .
It's probably what I listen to everyday when using my digital volume
control .




Main hifi: Touch + CIA PS +MeridianG68J MeridianHD621 MeridianG98DH 2 x
MeridianDSP5200 MeridianDSP5200HC 2 xMeridianDSP3100 +Rel Stadium 3
sub.
Bedroom/Office: Boom
Kitchen: Touch + powered Fostex PM0.4
Misc use: Radio (with battery)
iPad1 with iPengHD & SqueezePad
(spares Touch, SB3, reciever ,controller )
server HP proliant micro server N36L with ClearOS Linux

http://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html

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Re: [slim] Meridian MQA - Breakthrough? LMS possible?

[cdmackay]

Julf wrote: 
> The upside is that HDtracks provides us with a big double-blind test. Do
> we hear people saying "oh yes, tracks 5 and 6 on that album don't sound
> a bit less hi-res than the others"? No. It is just people who look at
> spectrograms who notice any difference. Do we hear a lot of "Oh, the
> hi-res version sounds so much better" until it turns out the "hi-res" is
> only upsampled (or even despite it). Yep, we do. Conclusions left to the
> reader... :)

I would really like to discount 24/96+ as pointless, indistinguishable
from 16/44.1, except for one concern: the availability of "hi res"
versions - however delivered, MQA or not - from better masters than the
CD version, and with no way to get a 16/44.1 version of that master.
But, as we've discussed elsewhere, without curation, there's no way to
know what is what. Arse!

The DR loudness database/site could have been a useful (similar) effort,
but as most of its content is not detailed enough (e.g. only
artist/title, no other details), it's not much use in identifying
worthwhile masters.

I would love to see - and contribute to - a wiki/database of available
albums/tracks (with source info), which noted DR, and whether the
mastering was noticeably better than CD. that could also include
pointers to those tracks on the various streaming services. e.g "Deezer
track 924493", etc.

apols got getting a bit OT...



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Re: [slim] Meridian MQA - Breakthrough? LMS possible?

[Wombat]

Alert backwards. I was able to find a moment of pure silence in one of
the sampletracks and it may be absolutely full 16bit left. It is really
hard to find music that really needs that. In this case they seem to
have left silence dither for a moment at the end of the file.
It is nice ATH shaped dither curve! In the pic above is the MQA
noisefloor against iZotope 16bit silence. I forgot if that iZotope
sample has the low or medium strong shape.
Now take well shaped dither plus proper downsampling and the claim
better as standard cd is not very far fetched. You seldom see noise
shaped dither to maximize the dynamicrange on CDs. 
It may look bad on spectral plots for some but that is how shape works,
ATH in use.
19741


+---+
|Filename: mqadither.png|
|Download: http://forums.slimdevices.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=19742|
+---+


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Re: [slim] Meridian MQA - Breakthrough? LMS possible?

[DanSmedra]

In case anyone missed the beta screen that slipped out at TIDAL, which
was quickly removed. But someone got a screen capture.

19727


+---+
|Filename: MQA-TIDAL.jpg|
|Download: http://forums.slimdevices.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=19727|
+---+


*Source*: TIDAL HiFi, Pandora One, other > MySqueezebox.com & LMS
7.9.0-ickStream plugin, using iPeng 9.0.3 app on iPhone6s/iPad
*Great Room*: SB Touch(1) > AudioQuest Toslink > PSAudio  DL3 DAC >
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speakers, SB Touch(2) >JVC 110w amp >   Martin Logan Motion 4 &
AudioEngine 5.
*Garage:* SB Touch(3) > Wyred mINT > Cullen Cables > Martin Logan Motion
12
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Re: [slim] Meridian MQA - Breakthrough? LMS possible?

[cdmackay]

Julf wrote: 
> For one example, I took a really recent recording - David Bowie's
> Blackstar, just because... Looks like at least two of the tracks were
> recorded or processed in 48 K, even on the "24 / 96" off HDtracks.

why am I not surprised? :)



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Re: [slim] Meridian MQA - Breakthrough? LMS possible?

[R1200CL]

For those that enjoy these things.

http://www.computeraudiophile.com/f8-general-forum/meridians-mysterious-mqa-site-22575/index2.html#post378620



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Re: [slim] Meridian MQA - Breakthrough? LMS possible?

[Mnyb]

pablolie wrote: 
> Doesn't it have plenty? I have repeatedly read that often listeners
> prefer the MP3 copy of stuff compared to the lossless original, perhaps
> because the psycho acoustic model throws a slight bathtub EQ in there.

I was thinking I the realm of thier copying/piracy paranoia .




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Re: [slim] Meridian MQA - Breakthrough? LMS possible?

[pablolie]

Mnyb wrote: 
> ...
> But the industry might like a file format that's not quite a copy of the
> studio master .
> 

Doesn't it have plenty? I have repeatedly read that often listeners
prefer the MP3 copy of stuff compared to the lossless original, perhaps
because the psycho acoustic model throws a slight bathtub EQ in there.



...pablo
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Re: [slim] Meridian MQA - Breakthrough? LMS possible?

[Julf]

Mnyb wrote: 
> are that many studios still stuck in 24/48 ?

For one example, I took a really recent recording - David Bowie's
Blackstar, jut because... Looks like at least two of the tracks were
recorded or processed in 48 K, even on the "24 / 96" off HDtracks.



"To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this
fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt
edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953

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Re: [slim] Meridian MQA - Breakthrough? LMS possible?

[Wombat]

Mnyb wrote: 
> That's not good it means that MQA decoding is needed or you actually get
> less than CD quality ? Even if the file is playable

It may be even worse. If you can believe one find of esldude at CA the
MQA file even has a different frequency response in this non decoded
musik. This whole crap smells like a tricky way shoving DRM in the ears
with leaving out nothing in manipulating our perception.



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Re: [slim] Meridian MQA - Breakthrough? LMS possible?

[Wombat]

-1
" Similar to claims made by @Vert, he has trouble with his CD rips
sounding good and he finds the music he streams from Tidal to sound
better, even better than CD playback.  He said Tidal sources their
streams directly from the manufacturer who often provides source
material that is of higher quality than the physical CDs that you can
buy."

If they do so they should be boykoted altogether. It is lots of crap
written lately with only getting people into streaming for quality.



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Re: [slim] Meridian MQA - Breakthrough? LMS possible?

[Mnyb]

Wombat wrote: 
> Thanks for the link!
> Nothing like decoding but some nice ideas how to critisize MQA.
> Miska is one of the major dsd promotors and naturaly has strong
> ambitions against MQA :)
> I see he finds the undecoded playable part indeed has less bit
> resolution as a simple cd. Like i mentioned before maybe more like 14bit
> noiseshaped.
> 
> Edit: what he calls "MQA data appearing as high frequency noise" is imho
> the dithershape.

That's not good it means that MQA decoding is needed or you actually get
less than CD quality ? Even if the file is playable .

I was under the impression that at least got 16 bit quality . I
understand the idea that you can replace everything below bit 18-20 with
MQA info as this is just random noise in any recording , there are
virtually no system that in practice is more than 20 bit it gets
thoroughly masked by analog noise in your DAC and the rest of the chain
and your are probably lucky if the recordings is practically 16 bit .

But if you are for DSD , here you get another opportunity ultrasonic
garbage in the signal ;) 

Maybe streaming 16/88.2 flac would be better if the HF content is what
you dream necessary ( which is not true in reality but for argument ). A
much simpler idea ?

All this because some missunderstand sample theory , you don't get
better information on the <20khz content by delivering signals with
higher content ( note that recording with high sample rate is good
because it simplifies the ADC filters no brick wall filter needed
,nothing else )




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Re: [slim] Meridian MQA - Breakthrough? LMS possible?

[R1200CL]

http://www.head-fi.org/t/787020/review-comparison-of-5-high-end-digital-music-servers-aurender-n10-cad-cat-server-totaldac-d1-server-auralic-aries-audiophile-vortex-box/240#post_12240206

+1



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Re: [slim] Meridian MQA - Breakthrough? LMS possible?

[R1200CL]

https://www.facebook.com/auralic.ltd

Correction to previous posting RE: MQA, written by someone not at CES.)
During CES, MQA discovered that wireless high-resolution Music Streamers
without built-in DACs (i.e., AURALiC’s ARIES, ARIES LE & ARIES MINI)
require a slightly different implementation of its technology.
MQA has not yet completed finalizing the definitive version of the
technology; no MQA partner has yet to receive the actual final version
of this emerging technology, which will be downloadable to any product
in the very near future.) Because of this, AURALiC’s original plan to
include TIDAL/MQA capability in the v3.0 firmware being issued today
will not occur.
Xuanqian Wang
President & CEO



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Re: [slim] Meridian MQA - Breakthrough? LMS possible?

[Julf]

DanSmedra wrote: 
> Fact #1: MQA has several parts/components.

An encoder and a decoder? :)

> Fact #2: Confusion of what it is and how it works is currently the
> status-quo.

Indeed. But the proponents of the system are not doing a very good job
to clear up the confusion.

> Fact #3: A growing number of top audio companies have become believers.

Not sure about "believers", but I can see why equipment vendors would
love yet another format that will obsolete older gear and encourage
people to upgrade.  The real question is how many major record companies
support the system - it will live or die based on availability of
content. 

The only real case for MQA is "hi-res" streaming - and I am not sure
there is a business case for that. While record companies no doubt would
love another opportunity to sell you yet another copy of the music you
already have, for locally stored content MQA doesn't offer any advantage
over 96/24 FLAC.



"To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this
fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt
edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953

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Re: [slim] Meridian MQA - Breakthrough? LMS possible?

[Mnyb]

Designing a licensable format is some kind of industry holy grail .

Look no further than Sony , they try this all the time Phillips and Sony
struck gold with the CD they made some profit whoever sold the player ,
but that patent has expired so royalty is not the same anymore , then
Sony tried the SACD DSD thing. Etc .

There is some kind of balance that needs to be struck . Design a format
for its own sake just to create license fee vs an universal standard
that fulfills a consumer need .
The CD was such a format and the DVD too . LP and cassette where fidgety
and complicated and only the enthusiast consumer ever got the best out
of these format . cd just fixed that .

Seems to me that everyone wants to create the new FM radio , but they
fall shorts as for example Apple wants thier monopoly .
And other bizarre factors creeps in . Broadcaster are not happy to just
broadcast anymore they want endpoint control too ?




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Re: [slim] Meridian MQA - Breakthrough? LMS possible?

[Wombat]

If they were interested in some honest facts they long had offered a
HiBit file and the corresponding MQA->ANDBACK file. 
You have to wait until some underdog blog creates such files.



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Re: [slim] Meridian MQA - Breakthrough? LMS possible?

[R1200CL]

Wombat wrote: 
> If they were interested in some honest facts they long had offered a
> HiBit file and the corresponding MQA->ANDBACK file. 
> You have to wait until some underdog blog creates such files.
> Lets see what all this shows. From the short silent parts of the first
> 2L samples the undecoded (16bit?) part has some noisefloor i'd very
> vague rate by eye as maybe 14bit noiseshaped, not more.

Not good enough this link then ?
http://www.2l.no/hires/index.html?

What is missing ?



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Re: [slim] Meridian MQA - Breakthrough? LMS possible?

[R1200CL]

Wombat wrote: 
> Yes

He, he, maybe DVD John can do ;)
MQA is a patented technology.

But why would you like to decode a MQA file, as a reasonable DAC can do
as well as streamers ?
I do not know how hard it is to tap a spdif or USB interface, and save
the file, but that would fullfill your request I guess. 
You would in any case have a Tidal hi-fi subscription or purchase MQA
encoded music.



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Re: [slim] Meridian MQA - Breakthrough? LMS possible?

[DanSmedra]

R1200CL wrote: 
> You need a new DAC. 
> 
> "It is unfortunately that MQA has decided to pull back the integration
> on ARIES/ARIES LE during CES as they have decided to make it an 'end to
> end' technology which means it will always requests a MQA certificated
> DAC to work.
> ARIES ARIES LE, will be able to playback or stream music contains MQA
> format but will not listed MQA certificated device, to benefit from MQA,
> you will need a MQA certificated DAC and this is the only way.
> We are sorry about the decision made by MQA. DAR"
> 
> https://www.facebook.com/auralic.ltd/posts/910944658974032
> 
> What a disaster.
> I wonder what has happend behind the scene the last 24 hours.


I wouldn't be surprised that the Chinese attempted to reverse-engineer,
steal the technology, and market it under a different label. They do it
with nearly everything else.



*Source*: TIDAL HiFi, Pandora One, other > MySqueezebox.com & LMS
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*Great Room*: SB Touch(1) > AudioQuest Toslink > PSAudio  DL3 DAC >
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speakers, SB Touch(2) >JVC 110w amp >   Martin Logan Motion 4 &
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*Garage:* SB Touch(3) > Wyred mINT > Cullen Cables > Martin Logan Motion
12
*Carry Anywhere: *TIDAL and Pandora >iPhone 6s > Bose Mini Bluetooth
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Re: [slim] Meridian MQA - Breakthrough? LMS possible?

[R1200CL]

Julf wrote: 
> ?..., for locally stored content MQA doesn't offer any advantage
> over 96/24 FLAC.

So even if original recordings is offered DXD FLC 24/384, I could
understand that those resolutions is just close to marketing BS ? My DAC
has limitations, so I can't test how good or better DXD might be.



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Re: [slim] Meridian MQA - Breakthrough? LMS possible?

[Wombat]

R1200CL wrote: 
> 
> Are you requesting a decoded MQA file ?
Yes



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Re: [slim] Meridian MQA - Breakthrough? LMS possible?

[DanSmedra]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IS8V2juQMiw

19707


+---+
|Filename: BobS-CES2016.JPG |
|Download: http://forums.slimdevices.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=19707|
+---+


*Source*: TIDAL HiFi, Pandora One, other > MySqueezebox.com & LMS
7.9.0-ickStream plugin, using iPeng 9.0.3 app on iPhone6s/iPad
*Great Room*: SB Touch(1) > AudioQuest Toslink > PSAudio  DL3 DAC >
Audio Envy interconnect 10' cables > 200w powered Martin   Logan Purity
speakers, SB Touch(2) >JVC 110w amp >   Martin Logan Motion 4 &
AudioEngine 5.
*Garage:* SB Touch(3) > Wyred mINT > Cullen Cables > Martin Logan Motion
12
*Carry Anywhere: *TIDAL and Pandora >iPhone 6s > Bose Mini Bluetooth
speaker.

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Re: [slim] Meridian MQA - Breakthrough? LMS possible?

[Mnyb]

For streaming the small bitrate is a good thing , especially for the
service that streams , keeping bandwidth low . If you have decent ISP
your bandwith is not a problem , I can only imagine the loads Tidal and
Spotify has

But for downloadable files ? Then a 24/96 PCM / Flac file is much better
, it's more money in a sold file it could easily cover bandwith cost .
And you download once . If you stream you use bandwith every time you
listen .

But the industry might like a file format that's not quite a copy of the
studio master .

If they get common , we might actually see some intense reverse
engineering as people would,like foobar2000 plugins etc , KODI anyone ?
. And people would expect things like jriver, media monkey and dBpower
amp to be able to convert the files .
Some of these apps are paid for so they could probably license .




Main hifi: Touch + CIA PS +MeridianG68J MeridianHD621 MeridianG98DH 2 x
MeridianDSP5200 MeridianDSP5200HC 2 xMeridianDSP3100 +Rel Stadium 3
sub.
Bedroom/Office: Boom
Kitchen: Touch + powered Fostex PM0.4
Misc use: Radio (with battery)
iPad1 with iPengHD & SqueezePad
(spares Touch, SB3, reciever ,controller )
server HP proliant micro server N36L with ClearOS Linux

http://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html

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Re: [slim] Meridian MQA - Breakthrough? LMS possible?

[Wombat]

R1200CL wrote: 
> He, he, maybe DVD John can do ;)
> MQA is a patented technology.
> 
> But why would you like to decode a MQA file, as a reasonable DAC can do
> as well as streamers ?
> I do not know how hard it is to tap a spdif or USB interface, and save
> the file, but that would fullfill your request I guess. 
> You would in any case have a Tidal hi-fi subscription or purchase MQA
> encoded music.
MQA is some lossy way storing music that can be decoded to the maximum
samplerate your DAC handles thats all. I want to know what data Meridian
thinks can be missing against a solid 24/96 when decoded to 24/96 for
example.



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Re: [slim] Meridian MQA - Breakthrough? LMS possible?

[R1200CL]

You need a new DAC. 

"It is unfortunately that MQA has decided to pull back the integration
on ARIES/ARIES LE during CES as they have decided to make it an 'end to
end' technology which means it will always requests a MQA certificated
DAC to work.
ARIES ARIES LE, will be able to playback or stream music contains MQA
format but will not listed MQA certificated device, to benefit from MQA,
you will need a MQA certificated DAC and this is the only way.
We are sorry about the decision made by MQA. DAR"

https://www.facebook.com/auralic.ltd/posts/910944658974032

What a disaster.
I wonder what has happend behinde the scene the last 24 hours.



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Re: [slim] Meridian MQA - Breakthrough? LMS possible?

[Ron Thigpen]

As noted, that URL is broken.

Here's the AES citation page:
http://www.aes.org/e-lib/browse.cfm?elib=17501

The PDF is free to download from there.  Direct linking to the document 
URL is unlikely to work, as it looks like they are using a temp URL 
scheme that changes daily.


--rt



On 1/5/16 7:05 PM, R1200CL wrote:


If someone like to read more real facts about MQA.
http://www.aes.org/tmpFiles/elib/20160105/17501.pdf

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Re: [slim] Meridian MQA - Breakthrough? LMS possible?

[Wombat]

R1200CL wrote: 
> http://www.computeraudiophile.com/blogs/miska/some-analysis-and-comparison-mqa-encoded-flac-vs-normal-optimized-hires-flac-674/
Thanks for the link!
Nothing like decoding but some nice ideas how to critisize MQA.
Miska is one of the major dsd promotors and naturaly has strong
ambitions against MQA :)
I see he finds the undecoded playable part indeed has less bit
resolution as a simple cd. Like i mentioned before maybe more like 14bit
noiseshaped.



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Re: [slim] Meridian MQA - Breakthrough? LMS possible?

[Mnyb]

Really strange ?? End to end ok , can a streamer output for example the
Tidal stream unaltered on spdiff and a certified DAC use it ? That
Facebook tread raises even more questions ? Or do they actually envision
that the network stream should go into the AVR or DAC directly and come
out analog ?

I've sort of understood that some kind of optimised filter is a part of
a MQA certified DAC . This could be done in software to , that's the
thing there a lot of media boxes around that outputs via hdmi to AVR ?

It would not take off with such stric limitations , if they want
widespread adaptation .

Yes the Chinese copy everything , but MQA could enforce some endpoint 
cryptography , just like most streaming services do or in fact it will
probably be done by the streaming service .




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Re: [slim] Meridian MQA - Breakthrough? LMS possible?

[R1200CL]

Wombat wrote: 
> Yes

http://www.computeraudiophile.com/blogs/miska/some-analysis-and-comparison-mqa-encoded-flac-vs-normal-optimized-hires-flac-674/



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Re: [slim] Meridian MQA - Breakthrough? LMS possible?

[R1200CL]

WOW Mnyb. I'm impressed. Very well written. I agree about what you say
about HD tracks, as I found their so called hi-res not better than
redbok. Exeptions for some tracks though. 

If I have understood the MQA prosess correctly as an end to end chain,
you actually have to go back to the masteres, so I do think the record
companies actually are doing this job you don't think they are. 

I might be totally wrong here, and if so, then I can't see any future
succsess for MQA for the privious recordings.
So yes, we need a confirmation from record companies that they will be
doing the MQA coding. Maybe also a reason why Tidal seems to wait
another 6 months before release MQA streaming. 

Link to another thread discussions the subjekt about MQA. 
https://community.roonlabs.com/t/tidal-to-launch-mqa-hi-res-audio-streaming-in-2016/5408/107



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Re: [slim] Meridian MQA - Breakthrough? LMS possible?

[Julf]

Mnyb wrote: 
> Yes about the 24/192 we have to have a positive outlook sometimes , are
> that many studios still stuck in 24/48 ? 24/96 is all ok probably the
> rigth compromise .
> Having been in some actual studios , it differs :) maybe the ADC is not
> the bottleneck but something else . It can be a mashup of disparate
> equipment and everyone can not buy the new toys all the time.

Often the limiting factor is the software and digital audio processing
computer - 48 vs 96 makes a big difference once you start stacking lots
of channels.

> Btw for download files why not 16/48 ? It would suit computers much
> better and be easier to downsample to from the source.

Downsampling is downsampling, the ratio doesn't really matter. But
ironically mp3s are increasingly starting to be 48... :)

> I do have the odd 24/48 recording too it may reflect the actual studio
> master ...

It means they are actually being honest! :)



"To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this
fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt
edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953

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Re: [slim] Meridian MQA - Breakthrough? LMS possible?

[Mnyb]

Yes the recordings has to contain actual ultrasonic content otherwise
MQA is pointless even for is intended purpose .

And not any haphazard ultrasonic content the producer has to know what
he is doing .

Did not both Theta and Pioneer ( legato link ) both had some failed
aproach to guess/generate the overtones . the failure is that the
information is lost forever can not be recreated  Sadly I thinks
it's very tempting to do this again to generate content .

The recording process do use 24/192 these days to avoid brick wall
filters etc and further use floating point data in subsequent software
that mixes and produces the stuff . The benefits are clear to all of us
but actually it does not necessarily needs to be distributed in that
format to the end user . Like most digital processing the practice to
use very high Rez source material makes good sense just like in
Photoshop ( I did buttons for my remote control app in more than
1000*1000 res even if they are shrunken down to 72px in iRule , but all
plugins and effects etc worked so much better ) . But the subsequent
distribution to consumers ? We have very good resamplers and dither
algorithms these days .

Anecdote I have even used bad algorithms and rather sloppy conversion
processes for my own tests , and I could still not detect any difference
that's how good today's stuff is .

If you want to "test" hirez in some ABX fashion use SoX or something and
resample some of the better hirez recordings you have . Do not compare
to the cd release or cd layer that came with the disc ;) they obviously
sound "different" ( because the obvious fact that they are not the same
master )

Personally looking at most distortions curves on power amps they peak in
the HF and also typical HF resonance peaks in tweeters ( transformer
resonances in tube amps anyone ? ) I only see a possible way for
intermodulation distortion this would sound different ofcourse .




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Re: [slim] Meridian MQA - Breakthrough? LMS possible?

[Julf]

Mnyb wrote: 
> The recording process do use 24/192 these days to avoid brick wall
> filters etc

Apart from audiophile recordings most commercial recordings are still in
24/48 or 24/96. 

> If you want to "test" hirez in some ABX fashion use SoX or something and
> resample some of the better hirez recordings you have . Do not compare
> to the cd release or cd layer that came with the disc ;) they obviously
> sound "different" ( because the obvious fact that they are not the same
> master )

Indeed. Using SOX it is trivially easy to produce different resolutions
of an original recording, so there is no excuse not to do a proper
comparison (OK, the only trouble is finding material that really is
"hi-res"). 

> Personally looking at most distortions curves on power amps they peak in
> the HF and also typical HF resonance peaks in tweeters ( transformer
> resonances in tube amps anyone ? ) I only see a possible way for
> intermodulation distortion this would sound different ofcourse .

Yes, and because of that, "hi-res" might actually sound *worse* (due to
intermodulation distortion caused by HF noise).



"To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this
fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt
edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953

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Re: [slim] Meridian MQA - Breakthrough? LMS possible?

[Mnyb]

Yes about the 24/192 we have to have a positive outlook sometimes , are
that many studios still stuck in 24/48 ? 24/96 is all ok probably the
rigth compromise .
Having been in some actual studios , it differs :) maybe the ADC is not
the bottleneck but something else . It can be a mashup of disparate
equipment and everyone can not buy the new toys all the time .

Btw for download files why not 16/48 ? It would suit computers much
better and be easier to downsample to from the source .

The extra 2kHz that *may* be a problem for a extreme human listener is
there ? I do have the odd 24/48 recording too it may reflect the actual
studio master ...

But now we are to off topic I stop now  

Hopefully someone can be on topic on actual squeezebox implementations
of services with MQA , in the case of actually using it or safely bypass
it , either way is a solution ( you can still use whatever service it's
about ).




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Re: [slim] Meridian MQA - Breakthrough? LMS possible?

[Julf]

R1200CL wrote: 
> If I have understood the MQA prosess correctly as an end to end chain,
> you actually have to go back to the masteres, so I do think the record
> companies actually are doing this job you? 

There is no specific technical requirement that forces you to go back to
the original masters, but unless you have supposed high-frequency
content, MQA doesn't give you any benefits, so applying MQA encoding to
a 44.1/16 recording is quite possible and doable, but entirely
pointless. 

Then again, who would have thought the record companies would upsample
existing recordings to be able to sell them as "hi-res"? :-/



"To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this
fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt
edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953

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Re: [slim] Meridian MQA - Breakthrough? LMS possible?

[DanSmedra]

Fact #1: MQA has several parts/components.

Fact #2: Confusion of what it is and how it works is currently the
status-quo.

Fact #3: A growing number of top audio companies have become believers.

19693


+---+
|Filename: MQA.jpg  |
|Download: http://forums.slimdevices.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=19693|
+---+


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Re: [slim] Meridian MQA - Breakthrough? LMS possible?

[Mnyb]

Julf wrote: 
> "The requested URL /tmpFiles/elib/20160105/17501.pdf was not found on
> this server."
> 
> How about you actually explaining what you think we have gotten wrong
> about MQA? It is a proprietary way to compress "hi-res" files by using
> lower-order bits of a 24-bit file format to encode the high frequency
> content. It is kind of compatible with non-MQA systems because the
> encoded high-frequency material will drown in the noise margin of a
> 24-bit file.

Yes that's how I got it to ( half of the people in this tread do not
have English as first language ) thanks for the short version .

Btw TAS an CA are not reliable sources you read thier stuff with great
scepticism , TAS had a completely bollocks article serie on digital
audio where they basically claimed that the laws of physics where wrong
due to thier sighted listening tests ... :D




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Re: [slim] Meridian MQA - Breakthrough? LMS possible?

[Mnyb]

There was some good technical discussion at hydrogen audio . But hey
seems to move thier web space . So treads are just not aviable rigth
now

Btw just because it's a AES paper does not mean it's good or legit .
Meridian has a good position in the society and IMO uses the science
flair that publicate papers within AES gives for marketing purposes .
These result are not undisputed .

Does it make AES bad ? No this is a problem all research organisation
and universities has to grapple with from time to time , you won't
believe how much crap research even very respected universities realease
to the world . It's kind of self correcting but it takes time .Over time
several studies of a phenome takes place and it can even take a meta
study to give some kind of final verdict.

A more valid to aproach to a hifi streaming service would be to curate
the content to the best known version of a work ? This has much more
impact than the bit container I take the 320k MP3 version of the
definitive master of something any day over the latest loudness war
compressed master in glorious 24/192 the differences between suitable
bit containers are subtle at best the differences between masters are
really huge .
Hey you could even throw in MQA streaming on the side in this scenario .
Now and then the music would have a true 24/192 pedigree trough the
recording and mastering chain these files could be given the MQA
treatment . So on the rare occasion some subscribers could get the
satisfaction of seeing " the MQA light " turn on . But it would not be
used on program material where it would not work ( most music ever
recorded ).

It can prove a bit problematic to score true 96k or 192 k masters for
the bat content . HD tracks for example is ripping SACD disc for a lot
of thier content ? And they have huge problems with hirez masters that
are nothing more than doctored CD masters to begin with . A logistical
nightmare .

A would love a streaming service that tackled the whole quality problem
, not just obsessing over bits and kbits .

Btw to get "bat friendly" content you may need to listen to rather
closed miked music as the frequencies die of fast in the air and I do
wonder how many of the classic microphones that record engineers love
work in this domain what about thier polar pattern and frequency
response ?
And who will monitor this during production ? Do we even want it . The
ultrasound can pose a real problem for amplifiers and speakers and
actually do more good than bad . So even if we have a 24/192 master it
must still be carefully evaluated .
I do think 2L AIX and several others understands this very well .
But what about some indie self production where they happen to have
24/192 sound cards and current software ? Or some random pop production
that also happens to exist in the 24/192 domain .

And it returns to the problem of setting up a quality control system
that would ensure a hifi streaming service for real . It would require
all the record companies and independent artist to run back to thier
archives and do some QC work and possibly reupload a better master . We
are talking about millions of man hours fixing this ? And in most cases
the record company want the crappy compressed version . So that would in
some cases require the streaming service to rip an early 90's version of
some cd against the record companies intent, to get the best master ?
How to resolve that .




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Re: [slim] Meridian MQA - Breakthrough? LMS possible?

[Julf]

R1200CL wrote: 
> 
> Furter reliability information is:
> http://www.theabsolutesound.com/articles/meridians-master-quality-authenticated-the-interview/
> http://www.theabsolutesound.com/articles/beyond-high-resolution/
> 

So you are seriously quoting TAS as a source of reliable information?

> Broken URL is OK.

Indeed. We didn't need it anyway :)



"To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this
fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt
edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953

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Re: [slim] Meridian MQA - Breakthrough? LMS possible?

[Julf]

StephenPG wrote: 
> What are brickwalling artefacts?

A square wave contains a sum of all odd harmonics up to infinity. If you
remove some of the higher ones, the resulting wave is of course not
perfectly square any more - the top will show a "ripple" proportional to
the removed higher harmonics. This is usually referred to as the 'Gibbs
phenomenon ' (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gibbs_phenomenon). If the
removed harmonics are higher in frequency than the limit of human
hearing (as usually is the case in digital audio systems), the effect is
purely visual and not audible - another case of the dangers of using
your eyes rather than your ears.



"To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this
fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt
edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953

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Re: [slim] Meridian MQA - Breakthrough? LMS possible?

[d6jg]

Totally agree Pablo



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Re: [slim] Meridian MQA - Breakthrough? LMS possible?

[R1200CL]

pablolie wrote: 
> This probably has been discussed before, but I just wonder why I should
> be interested in MQA encoding for the music library I already have in my
> home environment. 
It will have no effect on your present library, as non of those files
are MQA encoded. So you should not be interested :D

pablolie wrote: 
> I see no bottlenecks to get even my 24/192 content (which I have, even
> though its merits in a home environment are a tad questionable to begin
> with, but that's another discussion altogether :D ) to any device in my
> home. Even with lowly, old 802.11g wireless (which the SB ecosystem
> supports), and even less so with 802.11ac which gets you a few Gbit/s
> across the house. So thank you very much, at home FLAC or whatever I
> already have works well enough.
Again you are 100% correct. 

pablolie wrote: 
> Which makes me think the sweet market spot for MQA is HiRez music
> streaming, since MQAs big virtue is it can pack a 24/192 stream 
> (~9Mbit/s) into the equivalent of a 16/44 stream (good ole 1.4Mbit/s).
> Which is relevant if (a) your bandwidth connection is less than
> ~12Mbit/s and (b) you still insist on listening to music in HiRez
> wherever you are. 
Again you are 100% correct, but read my last comment b.
Actually when I first read about MQA, I did not expect download MQA
files as an option. 

pablolie wrote: 
> Well, I don't, I am perfectly fine with Spotify-like streaming when I am
> not at home in front of the music shrine - but that's just me.
Actually I ask myself as well if hi res streaming has any value when you
are only using your phone and headset. As I think you need quite good
equiment to benefit from this. However my Tidal Hi-Fi subscription
sounds very well from my iPhone, and since I can download CD quality, I
can even bring the files with me and play on a plane. Or in the car. Or
just use Airplay / Chromcast. 

pablolie wrote: 
> So the question is - does the SB ecosystem even benefit from MQA?

Yes, if:
a: You are a Tidal Hi-Fi subscriber and has a Squeezebox Touch, and
probably other SB products, but I'm thinking 24/96 is needed as minimum.
Tidal is the only subscription available in CD quality on SB platform,
and said to support MQA. If other will come, those should be included. 
b: Download (expensive) MQA fils, and use SBT / SB-products. Look at 2L
or 7Digital store to get a price idea.

Also it's said that even non MQA equipment will benefint from a MQA
stream / file. (So Tidal Hi-Fi subscribers get a free ride:cool:)

No, if
Your DAC is MQA enabled.

I do not know enough about Squeeze Lite as a possible option.

Assuming MQA is as fantastic as those few who have heard say it is, I
still think you need good equipment in order to benefit fully from MQA,
but I may be wrong. But that apply to hi-res as well...
Also any stremer or sw player will have a standard DAC profile, so in
order to have the very best, you will probably look for a MQA enabled
DAC. I predic there will be a lot of discussions at a later stage if you
really need that last DAC specific parameter, as long as your SW player
or streamer support MQA.

I wonder if Chromcast Audio will support MQA :D Tidal will support CA.
(Airplay does not support HRA)

*(HRA = High Res Audio)



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Re: [slim] Meridian MQA - Breakthrough? LMS possible?

[StephenPG]

What are brickwalling artefacts?



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Re: [slim] Meridian MQA - Breakthrough? LMS possible?

[R1200CL]

Julf wrote: 
> "The requested URL /tmpFiles/elib/20160105/17501.pdf was not found on
> this server."
> 
> How about you actually explaining what you think we have gotten wrong
> about MQA? It is a proprietary way to compress "hi-res" files by using
> lower-order bits of a 24-bit file format to encode the high frequency
> content. It is kind of compatible with non-MQA systems because the
> encoded high-frequency material will drown in the noise margin of a
> 24-bit file.

I can't see anything wrong in your statment. It's the shortest or best
:p description I've seen so far...

So let us stop discuss what it is or not. I'm not the right person to
discuss this with, as I have no knowlegde except from what can be found
online. 

I have got a nice answer on the IckStream site about the possibilities
of having MAQ implemented. 

I may add it still seems that if you like to have the very last prosent
of audio quality implementert in a MQA chain, you most likely need to do
something with the DAC. But for sure decoding can be done by SW. As we
have seen pure streamer will have MQA firmware updates soon. We also
know from Tidal's Pål Bråterud the following

"At beginning, we will just transport MQA files (in FLAC wrapper) to
external hardware that's supporting MQA decoding. But we will certainly
also soft decode in the future also on desktop so you can enjoy MQA
quality with any DAC. In mobile applications we will of course soft
decode from launch.

To begin with it will be a rather limited offering of higher than
redbook content, but eventually we will also run all our redbook content
through as you then will lose the brickwalling artefacts and also get
better and more accurate coding of the PCM itself.

For us it is more important that we do this right rather than have a
vast catalogue of questionable character. Quality over quantity. As we
go along we will fill up the tanks quicker and quicker."

Furter reliability information is:
http://www.theabsolutesound.com/articles/meridians-master-quality-authenticated-the-interview/
So you really do not need my explaination ;)

Bruken URL is OK.



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Re: [slim] Meridian MQA - Breakthrough? LMS possible?

[R1200CL]

Thanks Mynb

You have spent a lot of time explaining your point of view. Maybe it is
time for me to sell my Touch while prices are still are good, and
purchase an Auralic with Roon support.

I just got email from Tidal support saying the product (Squeezebox) is
discontinued, and MQA will not be supported from them.

If MQA ltd also indicates the same answer, I guess MQA never will happen
on Squeezebox, as without their support I guess it will be impossible to
implement MQA.



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Re: [slim] Meridian MQA - Breakthrough? LMS possible?

[toby10]

MQA isn’t even relevant yet and seems geared more for mobile audio. 
If/when implemented it will be on a very select few stations/services
for the next few years.  
Likely be a “premium” service for those few niche services for a while,
and may remain very niche for a very long while.

Writing apps/plugins for such a niche market seems rather silly for a
discontinued product line.  Heck, I’ll be happy if my SB players are
even functioning 5 years from now as is, much less supporting new audio
codecs.   :)



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Re: [slim] Meridian MQA - Breakthrough? LMS possible?

[Julf]

R1200CL wrote: 
> If someone like to read more real facts about MQA. 
> http://www.aes.org/tmpFiles/elib/20160105/17501.pdf
> 

"The requested URL /tmpFiles/elib/20160105/17501.pdf was not found on
this server."

How about you actually explaining what you think we have gotten wrong
about MQA? It is a proprietary way to compress "hi-res" files by using
lower-order bits of a 24-bit file format to encode the high frequency
content. It is kind of compatible with non-MQA systems because the
encoded high-frequency material will drown in the noise margin of a
24-bit file.



"To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this
fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt
edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953

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Re: [slim] Meridian MQA - Breakthrough? LMS possible?

[Julf]

R1200CL wrote: 
> I think you have totally misunderstood what MQA is and offers. You
> should not tell direct lies like this.

You are not winning any friends by that approach. If you think Mnyb has
misunderstood something about MQA, then please point out the facts.
Calling stuff "lies" is not helpful, unless you have clear evidence that
Mnyb is spreading false information on purpose.

> MQA is Lossless.

Depends on your definition of "lossless". It is lossless for the upper
bits, but "steals" lower bits to represent HF information.

> And all major record companies support MQA, and actually have started
> the prosess of implementing MQA into their masters.

So which record companies have actually committed to supporting MQA? 

> I can't understand why you are against implementing MAQ into Squeezebox,
> or have I misunderstood your post ?

And I can't understand why you are so for implementing it. What benefits
do you think it will bring?

> Hopfully they read this post and can email MQA about licence issue. 
> http://www.musicischanging.com has just updated their pages.

Interestingly, the only "content partner" they list is 2L, not really
one of the major record companies. If the others are supporting MQA, why
are they not mentioned?

The "how it works" section is thick on hype, thin on facts.

> MQA is very new to people, and for some strange reason, many are
> skeptical to MQA.

The "strange reason" might be that it is yet another proprietary,
licensed format that doesn't bring any benefits.



"To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this
fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt
edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953

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Re: [slim] Meridian MQA - Breakthrough? LMS possible?

[Mnyb]

2L is one of the niche labels ( like aix ) that do true hirez recordings
but that's <0.01 % of the content needed to drive a streaming network ?
and audiophile labels rarely records any real musician that anyone care
to listen to with some notable exceptions like Opus 3 recording the
excellent Eric Bibb .

What about all the other music ? Should you dimension the network for
content never listened to . It's like building freeways for NASA's
crawler ( that pulls the rocket to the launch pad ).

i think I  have 40% of all aix discs and I do listen 2-5 of them
regularly . And they did a good effort to find musically viable artists
to record , a good try and I respect that . But it's hard doing it the
other way around as the audiophile labels do . " let's do a good record
" who should be on it ?

The amount of records "worthy" of this treatment ( let's pretends it
does something for a moment ) is so small that everyone interested
probably have half of them in thier shelves already ? Or on thier hard
drives . So why stream it ?

Sites likes HD tracks seems to have a lot of hirez records . Buts that's
not really true ,they are sold in 24/192 containers but are mostly the
same stuff as ever , most bits will be noise with all the 60's Rock
records they sell as pretend hirez when 16 bit 44.1 kHz probably would
preserve all the fidelity they ever had

Most good labels do have a strong artistic vision behind them ,
documenting a genre or music styles that they love .

I would like to try this on a cocktail party , let's listen to the
shiefeild labs drum record followed by Jazz at the pawnshop... ;) boo 

It just that nobody attacks the real problem the subpar recordings we
are swamped with ! All our current distributing formats is good enough
for them , they are not yet a problem . We can open this discussion
again when everyone has the same intrinsic recording quality as 2L AIX
or Linn et all .




Main hifi: Touch + CIA PS +MeridianG68J MeridianHD621 MeridianG98DH 2 x
MeridianDSP5200 MeridianDSP5200HC 2 xMeridianDSP3100 +Rel Stadium 3
sub.
Bedroom/Office: Boom
Kitchen: Touch + powered Fostex PM0.4
Misc use: Radio (with battery)
iPad1 with iPengHD & SqueezePad
(spares Touch, SB3, reciever ,controller )
server HP proliant micro server N36L with ClearOS Linux

http://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html

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Re: [slim] Meridian MQA - Breakthrough? LMS possible?

[Mnyb]

Qubus sublime offer some sort of 24bit
https://forum.ickstream.com/viewtopic.php?f=11=392=10

Why I'm against it it just another proprietary format in an industry
already fragmented by to many closed formats like iTunes etc. No one
really needs yet another format .

If someone wants to develop an universal high quality streaming format
it should IMO be completely open source .
There are technical reasons why DASH or similar is implemented so a
format better suited to steaming and handling all the traffic in better
way may be what the industry needs . But I suppose Moores law will make
streaming cd quality flac quite feasible anyway . Maybe we need THE
FORMAT whatever that is streaming and online purchasing and downloads
seems to me being locked into a decade long never ending format war . I
just whished it could end .
I see MQA as a shameless money grab .

If I would be King for a day I say FLAC and MP3 and that's it :) flac do
support all kinds of bitrates btw 24 bit would work .

And soundquality wise 16/44.1 is not a limiting factor . 1 the
recordings or 2 our biology is the limit . I been suckered into the
Hirez thing before in my life as I have hundreds of DVDA disc to prove
that . It is not a proven fact quite the opposite that resolution above
16/44.1 is needed for human listeners . Meridian has done some very bad
"research" lately trying to prove thier point both about pre ringing in
filters and the need for > 20 kHz frequencies in audio I suspect it's
more marketing than research .

I would love discrete multichannel streaming :) no one up for that ?

So there is no point what's so ever to stream 24 bit audio as thier is
no point in 24 bit audio in general . Ultraviolet television would make
more sense then I could get a tan viewing wildlife documentaries 

But I do cheer on if someone wants to develop this if large proportion
of the streaming industry adopts it we need it whether we like it or not
! Just like ntsc never was the best to format or vhs never was the best
video format .
We simply have to use the formats our content is delivered in . But I
cringe a bit when a format is sold to us with no readable rationale
behind it ?




Main hifi: Touch + CIA PS +MeridianG68J MeridianHD621 MeridianG98DH 2 x
MeridianDSP5200 MeridianDSP5200HC 2 xMeridianDSP3100 +Rel Stadium 3
sub.
Bedroom/Office: Boom
Kitchen: Touch + powered Fostex PM0.4
Misc use: Radio (with battery)
iPad1 with iPengHD & SqueezePad
(spares Touch, SB3, reciever ,controller )
server HP proliant micro server N36L with ClearOS Linux

http://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html

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Re: [slim] Meridian MQA - Breakthrough? LMS possible?

[R1200CL]

If someone like to read more real facts about MQA. 
http://www.aes.org/tmpFiles/elib/20160105/17501.pdf



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Re: [slim] Meridian MQA - Breakthrough? LMS possible?

[Mnyb]

If it's Done in LMS it can support all players even the older ones . And
software players like squeezelite SqueezePlay etc a server
implementation would include and enable a lot of players .

And player firmware is very rarely updated these days . probably nerver
.

An "app" done for Touch is also a possibility . You can install apps on
the Touch besides the server side plugins . So an MQA app is one idea .
Advantage if an mysqueezebox.com supported service include MQA you can
run without a server .

Yes I did read some of the links , but I have never come across an
actual implementation yet . It been hinted that indeed deezer and tidal
Aubusson with MQA will still work on non MQA enabled players . Anyone
actuall tried yet ? I've seen on ickstream that some services started
with 24 bit ?
I can only run tidal or Spotify where I live ..




Main hifi: Touch + CIA PS +MeridianG68J MeridianHD621 MeridianG98DH 2 x
MeridianDSP5200 MeridianDSP5200HC 2 xMeridianDSP3100 +Rel Stadium 3
sub.
Bedroom/Office: Boom
Kitchen: Touch + powered Fostex PM0.4
Misc use: Radio (with battery)
iPad1 with iPengHD & SqueezePad
(spares Touch, SB3, reciever ,controller )
server HP proliant micro server N36L with ClearOS Linux

http://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html

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Re: [slim] Meridian MQA - Breakthrough? LMS possible?

[R1200CL]

Julf wrote: 
> What level of exam do I need to pass to show sufficient knowledge?

It seems to me that you just passes by your privious answer 

Would you have any interest and time to do the neccessary development ?
(If we solve any licence issues)



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Re: [slim] Meridian MQA - Breakthrough? LMS possible?

[R1200CL]

I've aksed. https://forum.ickstream.com/viewtopic.php?f=11=600

Still I would guess a user like Triode, Michal H, and Pippin would have
the knowlegde of who to aks, effort of work, etc. 

I shall also sende a message to Tidal even though not sure how they can
contribute to a possible plugin or firmware upgrade. 

First I think we need to agree upon that the plugin has to be on the
player and not in LMS, next can it be a plugin, or does it have to be a
firmware upgrade. I'm sure someone reading this know for sure what is
needed from a pure technical point of view. 

If comersial issues I suggest to start something on kickstarter or
similar together with the person that are willing to so the development.
But leave that for now. I'm interested to know for sure if it can be
done and what is needed in order to make this happen.



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