Re: [DNG] rc.local removed from Debian 9, rly?

[Olaf Meeuwissen]

Hi Jaromil, list,

Jaromil writes:

> dear John and Olaf,
>
> Thanks for proving me wrong, this is exactly what I hoped for.
>
> In fact my mail was perhaps badly worded and contained already a rant,
> but was really about asking this list for a critical analysis. For 2
> main reasons: 1) there are very knowledgeable people (like you both)
> that often are capable of checking better than me 2) I am a lazy wolf
> and prefer writing a mail than checking myself.

Reading back the mail that started all of this, yes, that one was not
that "alarmist".  The follow-up got a bit more so.  Those things happen
as thread tend to drift.  I'll try to make a habit of re-reading the
initial post before "venting" a reply.

> I also note as you point out that this behavior may be
> counterproductive for the public perception of this project: a way or
> another I also represent Devuan and maybe I should hold off this
> attitude and post only things that I am sure of. This is difficult for
> me, since I conceive spaces for debate as this and other mailinglists
> as spaces where to share doubts, fears, needs and dreams even more
> than findings and announcements, for which an article or a twit
> @DevuanOrg may be better.
>
> anyway, point taken. I know well that I'm wrong sometimes, just like
> now. So now I agree that considering this and the other discussion
> about redis, there is no real "vandalism" happening in Debian. About
> redis was just a maintainer fumbling around broken scripts through
> releases, while the rc.local case its just that people don't care
> about the regressions introduced by systemd.

Glad you realize this and glad you say so on the list.  We should all
practice a bit of restraint, do some minimal research and include
references before making "wild claims".

As a Debian Care Taker, you should perhaps take care even more ;-)

> [...]

Thanks and keep up the good work,
--
Olaf Meeuwissen, LPIC-2FSF Associate Member since 2004-01-27
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Re: [DNG] rc.local removed from Debian 9, rly?

[Jaromil]

On Wed, 22 Nov 2017, John Hughes wrote:

> On 22/11/17 11:42, Jaromil wrote:
> > On Wed, 22 Nov 2017, John Hughes wrote:
> > 
> > > No way to do that?  Seriously?  No way at all?
> > jeez, is John a troll?
> 
> My little joke about the usefulness of the systemd journal in diagnosing the
> /etc/rc.local problem could conceivably be considered trolling.

no, not that.

your aggressive attitude and your manipulation of information does.

John: you are not welcome here.

following up confirmations I've received off-list, this behavior now
gets you moderated.

I am entertained by the fact that, after 3 years of Devuan's project
thriving and establishing itself as a popular base distro, we can even
tolerate this bully attitude in shilling systemd and argue with it.
We all got to know bullies like John, in a way or another.

But there is no space for them here when they start being aggressive.

Those who are compelled to continue talk with him can do so off-list
or on other venues. 

ciao


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Re: [DNG] rc.local removed from Debian 9, rly?

[Tomasz Torcz]

November 22, 2017 11:21 AM, "John Hughes"  wrote:

> On 22/11/17 08:48, Didier Kryn wrote:
> 
>> Le 22/11/2017 à 07:19, John Hughes a écrit :
>>> Is there any way to read a file in format X without a program that
>>> reads format X?
>> 
>> The question is why use yet another "proprietary format"? Just to
>> force people to be use systemd for every task they need to do with
>> their computer.
> 
> Here we go again with the "assume bad faith".
> 
> The systemd journal format is not a proprietary format.


proprietary:
  : something that is used, produced, or marketed under exclusive legal right 
of the inventor or maker

  As far as I know, there is still no human-readable description of journal 
file format.
The only reference is journald source code, which is open source but some 
people prefer
not to be exposed to it (because of licensing at least, if not other reasons).
  Correct me if I'm wrong, but all readers of journal (in syslogs, log 
forwarders and
aggregators) get the data through journald API or systemd library. No one manage
to read those files directly, right?

  Journald files, having no documented format, fit in definition of 
“proprietary”.
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Re: [DNG] rc.local removed from Debian 9, rly?

[Rick Moen]

Quoting Steve Litt (sl...@troubleshooters.com):

> Acronym for Apologist Troll.

HANDY!

(Acronym for 'Have A Nice Day, Y'all.')

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Re: [DNG] rc.local removed from Debian 9, rly?

[Arnt Karlsen]

On Wed, 22 Nov 2017 14:44:57 -0500, Steve wrote in message 
<20171122144457.02549...@mydesk.domain.cxm>:

> On Wed, 22 Nov 2017 13:03:45 +0100
> Arnt Karlsen  wrote:
> 
> > On Wed, 22 Nov 2017 02:28:45 -0500, Steve wrote in message 
> > <20171122022845.1327c...@mydesk.domain.cxm>:
> >   
> > > On Wed, 22 Nov 2017 02:59:11 +0100
> > > Arnt Karlsen  wrote:
> > > 
> > > > On Tue, 21 Nov 2017 18:21:14 +0100, John wrote in message 
> > > > :
> > > >   
> > > > > (Damn but the systemd journal is great :-))
> > > 
> > > A T
> > 
> > ..er, I _totally_ lost you here.   
> 
> Acronym for Apologist Troll.

..thanks, John and Rick stand corrected, their "A" suggestion 
was "a". ;o)

> 
> SteveT
> 
> Steve Litt 
> November 2017 featured book: Troubleshooting: Just the Facts
> http://www.troubleshooters.com/tjust
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-- 
..med vennlig hilsen = with Kind Regards from Arnt Karlsen
...with a number of polar bear hunters in his ancestry...
  Scenarios always come in sets of three: 
  best case, worst case, and just in case.
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Re: [DNG] rc.local removed from Debian 9, rly?

[Arnt Karlsen]

On Wed, 22 Nov 2017 13:02:37 +0100, John wrote in message 
<0788acc2-15f4-491f-61bf-d28664664...@atlantech.com>:

> On 22/11/17 12:32, KatolaZ wrote:
> > On Wed, Nov 22, 2017 at 12:24:28PM +0100, John Hughes wrote:  
> >>
> >> I was amazed that KatolaZ couldn't imagine any way of reading text
> >> from a file without a special application, doesn't he have
> >> strings(1) on his "forensic system"?  
> >
> > As for journalctl, you forget to mention that it is not available
> > as a separate component from systemd.  
> 
> "Not available"?  Attached to systemd with epoxy?  Or an independent 
> executable that could easily be installed on a forensic system the
> good old fashioned way.  Or, if you prefer, just install the systemd
> package and use some other init system:

.._can_ we assume "systemd will never cover up crime"?  

..e.g. Microsoft usually recommend against "3rd party software" 
"that may" (or not) "contain software virus", and on our side 
we have "root kits" written by very skillful people covering 
their tracks from their victims and law enforcement.

> > I had never thhougt that I would have been suggested to look at logs
> > by grepping the results of "strings" on a binary file. But I
> > understand that this is considered "amazing technological progress"
> > in some camps.  
> 
> Whatever gets the job done.  Personally I'd just install the
> application that knows how to read the file, but if I was unable to
> do that for some reason or other I'd use one of the many useful tools
> Unix like systems come with rather than claiming the job was
> impossible.

..what if the job is "cover up crime in systemd journal logs"?  

-- 
..med vennlig hilsen = with Kind Regards from Arnt Karlsen
...with a number of polar bear hunters in his ancestry...
  Scenarios always come in sets of three: 
  best case, worst case, and just in case.
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Re: [DNG] rc.local removed from Debian 9, rly?

[Steve Litt]

On Wed, 22 Nov 2017 13:03:45 +0100
Arnt Karlsen  wrote:

> On Wed, 22 Nov 2017 02:28:45 -0500, Steve wrote in message 
> <20171122022845.1327c...@mydesk.domain.cxm>:
> 
> > On Wed, 22 Nov 2017 02:59:11 +0100
> > Arnt Karlsen  wrote:
> >   
> > > On Tue, 21 Nov 2017 18:21:14 +0100, John wrote in message 
> > > :
> > > 
> > > > (Damn but the systemd journal is great :-))  
> > 
> > A T  
> 
> ..er, I _totally_ lost you here. 

Acronym for Apologist Troll.

SteveT

Steve Litt 
November 2017 featured book: Troubleshooting: Just the Facts
http://www.troubleshooters.com/tjust
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Re: [DNG] rc.local removed from Debian 9, rly?

[Rick Moen]

Quoting Arnt Karlsen (a...@iaksess.no):

> On Wed, 22 Nov 2017 02:28:45 -0500, Steve wrote in message 
> <20171122022845.1327c...@mydesk.domain.cxm>:

> > A T
> 
> ..er, I _totally_ lost you here.  A vådeskudd? ("An 
> unintended discharge?", may happen if the wrong xterm 
> has keyboard focus when you type something...) ;o) 

I'll hazard a guess Steve was telegraphing 'a troll', though certainly
'a wet shot' på norsk would seem semi-appropriate, too, now that you
mention it.

-- 
Cheers,  Luftputebåten min er full av ål.
Rick Moen
r...@linuxmafia.com
McQ!  (4x80)
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Re: [DNG] rc.local removed from Debian 9, rly?

[Hendrik Boom]

On Wed, Nov 22, 2017 at 07:50:44PM +0900, Olaf Meeuwissen wrote:
> 
> Whether /etc/rc.local will be run (and on what run levels) is, IMHO, a
> matter for *your* init system to decide.  If your init system wants to
> cater to a decades long tradition of running /etc/rc.local at system
> startup, it should declare a dependency on initscripts or provide an
> /etc/rc.local itself.
> 
> If you want to use /etc/rc.local to tweak things, *you* should install
> an init system that runs it (and Devuan's `init` package should list it
> as a preferred alternative ;-)
> 
> Any init systems that deviate from age old traditions, should, ideally,
> clearly document that.  If they don't, cluebat their maintainers ;-)
> 
> And for the masses that don't know what /etc/rc.local is all about?
> Well, they wouldn't know either way, so are pretty much unaffected by
> all of this anyway.

There's no need for an init package to impose an /etc/rc.local, except 
as a clue to the clueless.  It's enough for it to execute it if it's 
there.

-- hendrik
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Re: [DNG] rc.local removed from Debian 9, rly?

[Arnt Karlsen]

On Wed, 22 Nov 2017 02:28:45 -0500, Steve wrote in message 
<20171122022845.1327c...@mydesk.domain.cxm>:

> On Wed, 22 Nov 2017 02:59:11 +0100
> Arnt Karlsen  wrote:
> 
> > On Tue, 21 Nov 2017 18:21:14 +0100, John wrote in message 
> > :
> >   
> > > (Damn but the systemd journal is great :-))
> 
> A T

..er, I _totally_ lost you here.  A vådeskudd? ("An 
unintended discharge?", may happen if the wrong xterm 
has keyboard focus when you type something...) ;o) 


> SteveT
> 
> Steve Litt 
> November 2017 featured book: Troubleshooting: Just the Facts
> http://www.troubleshooters.com/tjust
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-- 
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...with a number of polar bear hunters in his ancestry...
  Scenarios always come in sets of three: 
  best case, worst case, and just in case.
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Re: [DNG] rc.local removed from Debian 9, rly?

[John Hughes]

On 22/11/17 12:32, KatolaZ wrote:

On Wed, Nov 22, 2017 at 12:24:28PM +0100, John Hughes wrote:


I was amazed that KatolaZ couldn't imagine any way of reading text from a
file without a special application, doesn't he have strings(1) on his
"forensic system"?


As for journalctl, you forget to mention that it is not available as a
separate component from systemd.


"Not available"?  Attached to systemd with epoxy?  Or an independent 
executable that could easily be installed on a forensic system the good 
old fashioned way.  Or, if you prefer, just install the systemd package 
and use some other init system:



I had never thhougt that I would have been suggested to look at logs
by grepping the results of "strings" on a binary file. But I
understand that this is considered "amazing technological progress" in
some camps.


Whatever gets the job done.  Personally I'd just install the application 
that knows how to read the file, but if I was unable to do that for some 
reason or other I'd use one of the many useful tools Unix like systems 
come with rather than claiming the job was impossible.



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Re: [DNG] rc.local removed from Debian 9, rly?

[Olaf Meeuwissen]

Hi all,

I've read all the followup until 2017-11-22T10:21Z.  I may follow up on
selected posts, but I wanted to tackle this first.

KatolaZ writes:

> On Tue, Nov 21, 2017 at 04:05:47PM +0100, John Hughes wrote:
>> On 21/11/17 15:53, KatolaZ wrote:
>>
>> >What matters is that we need to retain initscripts as "important".
>>
>> If you have sysvinit then it's a damn site more than "important", it's a
>> dependency for sysvinit-core.
>
> I was not referring only to sysvinit. Since the expectation for any
> "pluggable" init system is to not break anything that works (at least
> in Devuan), this point must be taken into account by any candidate
> alternative init system (at least in Devuan).

Devuan has an `init` package that is Priority: required and Essential:
yes (on Jessie) or Important:yes (on Ascii and Ceres).  Trying to purge
`init` will warn you sternly and require a magic incantation, something
along the lines of

  WARNING: The following essential packages will be removed.
  This should NOT be done unless you know exactly what you are doing!
init
  [...]
  You are about to do something potentially harmful.
  To continue type in the phrase 'Yes, do as I say!'

The init package has a Pre-Depends: sysvinit-core | upstart.  Both
packages have a Depends: list that includes initscripts (without any
alternatives for initscripts).  Note that upstart is only available in
Jessie (it's purely virtual on Ascii and Ceres).

I have checked this on Jessie, Ascii and Ceres (using my Devuan Docker
base images[1]).

 [1]: https://gitlab.com/paddy-hack/devuan/container_registry

Given the above, I don't think there is not much need to make sure that
the `initscripts` package is made Priority: important.  On any of the
Devuan versions it will be installed so /etc/rc.local will exist, be
executable and run courtesy of sysvinit-core's or upstart's /sbin/init.

Whether /etc/rc.local will be run (and on what run levels) is, IMHO, a
matter for *your* init system to decide.  If your init system wants to
cater to a decades long tradition of running /etc/rc.local at system
startup, it should declare a dependency on initscripts or provide an
/etc/rc.local itself.

If you want to use /etc/rc.local to tweak things, *you* should install
an init system that runs it (and Devuan's `init` package should list it
as a preferred alternative ;-)

Any init systems that deviate from age old traditions, should, ideally,
clearly document that.  If they don't, cluebat their maintainers ;-)

And for the masses that don't know what /etc/rc.local is all about?
Well, they wouldn't know either way, so are pretty much unaffected by
all of this anyway.

Does that make sense?
--
Olaf Meeuwissen, LPIC-2FSF Associate Member since 2004-01-27
 GnuPG key: F84A2DD9/B3C0 2F47 EA19 64F4 9F13  F43E B8A4 A88A F84A 2DD9
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Re: [DNG] rc.local removed from Debian 9, rly?

[KatolaZ]

On Wed, Nov 22, 2017 at 12:24:28PM +0100, John Hughes wrote:
> On 22/11/17 11:42, Jaromil wrote:
> >On Wed, 22 Nov 2017, John Hughes wrote:
> >
> >>No way to do that?  Seriously?  No way at all?
> >jeez, is John a troll?
> 
> My little joke about the usefulness of the systemd journal in diagnosing the
> /etc/rc.local problem could conceivably be considered trolling.  The
> skirt-clutching replies to it could also be considered trolling.
> 
> I was amazed that KatolaZ couldn't imagine any way of reading text from a
> file without a special application, doesn't he have strings(1) on his
> "forensic system"?


John, you should possibly make an effort to quote people better, and
to avoid mixing quotes from different sources, since this only causes
confusion. 

As for journalctl, you forget to mention that it is not available as a
separate component from systemd. But you seem used to show only the
evidence that you like.

I had never thhougt that I would have been suggested to look at logs
by grepping the results of "strings" on a binary file. But I
understand that this is considered "amazing technological progress" in
some camps.

Choices.

HND

KatolaZ

P.S.: Go on with the flame. It's pointless to me.

-- 
[ ~.,_  Enzo Nicosia aka KatolaZ - Devuan -- Freaknet Medialab  ]  
[ "+.  katolaz [at] freaknet.org --- katolaz [at] yahoo.it  ]
[   @)   http://kalos.mine.nu ---  Devuan GNU + Linux User  ]
[ @@)  http://maths.qmul.ac.uk/~vnicosia --  GPG: 0B5F062F  ] 
[ (@@@)  Twitter: @KatolaZ - skype: katolaz -- github: KatolaZ  ]


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Re: [DNG] rc.local removed from Debian 9, rly?

[John Hughes]

On 22/11/17 11:42, Jaromil wrote:

On Wed, 22 Nov 2017, John Hughes wrote:


No way to do that?  Seriously?  No way at all?

jeez, is John a troll?


My little joke about the usefulness of the systemd journal in diagnosing 
the /etc/rc.local problem could conceivably be considered trolling.  The 
skirt-clutching replies to it could also be considered trolling.


I was amazed that KatolaZ couldn't imagine any way of reading text from 
a file without a special application, doesn't he have strings(1) on his 
"forensic system"?



it would explain his constant questions, keeping ignoring details that
are already explicit in the thread and wasting our time.


What explicit details have I ignored?  As far as I can see you've never 
provided any link to the original complaints about /etc/rc.local not 
being run, just some ill-informed rubbish on stackoverflow(!) about 
things being "deprecated".


You, personally, have repeatedly ignored information I provided, for 
example:


You: 2017-11-21 14:20 +100


is it the case that one must run two systemctl commands in order for
rc.local to be processed, or will rc.local just be found and executed? 


Me: 2017-11-21 14:48 +100, in reply:


No, no systemctl commands are needed, systemd-rc-local-generator will
enable rc-local.service if /etc/rc.local is executable, 


You, later in the same thread: 2017-11-21 15:19 +100

Then I believe we also agree that rc.local is a serious regressions? 


Me, in reply:

What regression? 


You: 2017-11-21 16:18 +100


the fact that besides creating it and making it executable, one must
also activate the service unit.


But I'd already told you that "no systemctl commands are needed"!

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Re: [DNG] rc.local removed from Debian 9, rly?

[Jaromil]

On Wed, 22 Nov 2017, John Hughes wrote:

> 
> On 22/11/17 06:50, KatolaZ wrote:
> > On Wed, Nov 22, 2017 at 02:59:11AM +0100, Arnt Karlsen wrote:
> > 
> > > ..is there a way to decode and read those binary systemd journal logs
> > > on classic POSIX/Unix etc forensic systems _not_ running systemd?
> > > 
> > No, there is no way to do that, and we are probably spiralling down
> > another flame... :(
> > 
> 
> No way to do that?  Seriously?  No way at all?

jeez, is John a troll?

it would explain his constant questions, keeping ignoring details that
are already explicit in the thread and wasting our time.

also this reply is clearly aimed at triggering, it contains no
information at all.

ciao
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Re: [DNG] rc.local removed from Debian 9, rly?

[John Hughes]

On 22/11/17 08:48, Didier Kryn wrote:

Le 22/11/2017 à 07:19, John Hughes a écrit :
Is there any way to read a file in format X without a program that 
reads format X? 


    The question is why use yet another "proprietary format"? Just to 
force people to be use systemd for every task they need to do with 
their computer.


Here we go again with the "assume bad faith".

The systemd journal format is not a proprietary format.

The systemd developers have said why they designed the format, but you 
think they have conspiratorial reasons for it.


You are not even forced to use systemd to read journald log files, you 
can have journalctl on a system not running systemd.


Hell, if you want you can just use strings(1).

strings /run/log/journal/bea434ed778c45fca34c5986c88ac085/system.journal 
| grep MESSAGE=


Personally I couldn't give a toss about the format, what's great about 
the journal is that it captures everything, especially things that would 
get written to the console and lost forever on a sysvinit based system.  
The original point was that the problem the bitcoin developers 
complained about should have been easy to diagnose if they were using 
systemd.  Since they weren't then whatever went wrong with their 
/etc/rc.local just scrolled off into outer space like the beginning of a 
Star Wars film with nobody watching.

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Re: [DNG] rc.local removed from Debian 9, rly?

[Didier Kryn]

Le 22/11/2017 à 07:19, John Hughes a écrit :
Is there any way to read a file in format X without a program that 
reads format X? 


    The question is why use yet another "proprietary format"? Just to 
force people to be use systemd for every task they need to do with their 
computer.


    The logfiles in any non-systemd Linux system can be read with a 
variety of standard Unix tools: more, less, cat, grep, awk, vi, emacs 
(longer list of editors in case you need).


                Didier


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Re: [DNG] rc.local removed from Debian 9, rly?

[Steve Litt]

On Wed, 22 Nov 2017 02:59:11 +0100
Arnt Karlsen  wrote:

> On Tue, 21 Nov 2017 18:21:14 +0100, John wrote in message 
> :
> 
> > (Damn but the systemd journal is great :-))  

A T
 
SteveT

Steve Litt 
November 2017 featured book: Troubleshooting: Just the Facts
http://www.troubleshooters.com/tjust
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Re: [DNG] rc.local removed from Debian 9, rly?

[John Hughes]

On 21/11/17 19:46, Jaromil wrote:

On Tue, 21 Nov 2017, John Hughes wrote:


Come to think about it, if the problem was that their rc.local
was failing somewhere then they should be able to see that in the
output of systemctl or journalctl.

Assuming they're using systemd, of course.  :-)

Not really. Its not just me, systemd is not considered to be safe for
use by any security expert I know of (and I know more than I wish...)
a legendary Bitcoin core developer (luke-jr) is explicitly encouraging
the switch to Devuan, while many already use it to run full nodes
using bitcoin-knots. One day we may even release a Devuan-based distro


So, this whole /etc/rc.local kerfuffle, it happened on a system with 
systemd or sysvinit?



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Re: [DNG] rc.local removed from Debian 9, rly?

[John Hughes]

On 22/11/17 02:59, Arnt Karlsen wrote:

On Tue, 21 Nov 2017 18:21:14 +0100, John wrote in message
:


(Damn but the systemd journal is great :-))

..is there a way to decode and read those binary systemd journal logs
on classic POSIX/Unix etc forensic systems _not_ running systemd?


Is there any way to read a file in format X without a program that reads 
format X?


I suppose you could scatter iron filings on the disk the use a scanning 
electron microscope to examine their positions and, using paper, pencil 
and a copy of the systemd doc work out the contents by hand.


Or, being endowed with the minimum level of foresight necessary for 
survival have a forensic system that includes tools for reading the file 
formats you're likely to find  on the system you want to post-mortem.



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Re: [DNG] rc.local removed from Debian 9, rly?

[KatolaZ]

On Wed, Nov 22, 2017 at 02:59:11AM +0100, Arnt Karlsen wrote:
> On Tue, 21 Nov 2017 18:21:14 +0100, John wrote in message 
> :
> 
> > (Damn but the systemd journal is great :-))
> 
> ..is there a way to decode and read those binary systemd journal logs
> on classic POSIX/Unix etc forensic systems _not_ running systemd?  
> 

No, there is no way to do that, and we are probably spiralling down
another flame... :(

HND

KatolaZ

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Re: [DNG] rc.local removed from Debian 9, rly?

[Arnt Karlsen]

On Tue, 21 Nov 2017 18:21:14 +0100, John wrote in message 
:

> (Damn but the systemd journal is great :-))

..is there a way to decode and read those binary systemd journal logs
on classic POSIX/Unix etc forensic systems _not_ running systemd?  

-- 
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...with a number of polar bear hunters in his ancestry...
  Scenarios always come in sets of three: 
  best case, worst case, and just in case.
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Re: [DNG] rc.local removed from Debian 9, rly?

[KatolaZ]

On Tue, Nov 21, 2017 at 03:47:26PM -0500, Steve Litt wrote:
> On Tue, 21 Nov 2017 14:53:28 +
> KatolaZ  wrote:
> 
> > As Olaf explained, the problem seems to originate in the fact that the
> > initscripts package is not any more marked as important. Hence, if you
> > don't have it, you won't get it by default. I personally agree on the
> > fact that this is somehow a regression.
> 
> If this is in any way a regression, or in fact if it's at all likely to
> provide unexpected behavior or breakage for Devuan users, why not do
> the following within the installation script:
> 
> if test -f /etc/rc.local; then 
>   echo '#!/bin/sh -e' > /etc/rc.local
>   echo 'exit 0' > /etc/rc.local
> fi
> # CREATE syvinit-style /etc/init.d/S99zz_rclocal
> # with its start case running /etc/rc.local
> # Use sysvinit style daemon controllers (update-rc.d I suspect)
> # to create the necessary level symlinks
> 


It's already there, in initscripts.postinst :)

HND

KatolaZ

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Re: [DNG] rc.local removed from Debian 9, rly?

[Steve Litt]

On Tue, 21 Nov 2017 14:53:28 +
KatolaZ  wrote:

> As Olaf explained, the problem seems to originate in the fact that the
> initscripts package is not any more marked as important. Hence, if you
> don't have it, you won't get it by default. I personally agree on the
> fact that this is somehow a regression.

If this is in any way a regression, or in fact if it's at all likely to
provide unexpected behavior or breakage for Devuan users, why not do
the following within the installation script:

if test -f /etc/rc.local; then 
  echo '#!/bin/sh -e' > /etc/rc.local
  echo 'exit 0' > /etc/rc.local
fi
# CREATE syvinit-style /etc/init.d/S99zz_rclocal
# with its start case running /etc/rc.local
# Use sysvinit style daemon controllers (update-rc.d I suspect)
# to create the necessary level symlinks

Do that, and no matter what Debian does to rc.local in the future, it
works perfectly in Devuan.
 
SteveT

Steve Litt 
November 2017 featured book: Troubleshooting: Just the Facts
http://www.troubleshooters.com/tjust
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Re: [DNG] rc.local removed from Debian 9, rly?

[Jaromil]

On Tue, 21 Nov 2017, John Hughes wrote:

>Come to think about it, if the problem was that their rc.local
>was failing somewhere then they should be able to see that in the
>output of systemctl or journalctl.
> 
>Assuming they're using systemd, of course.  :-)

Not really. Its not just me, systemd is not considered to be safe for
use by any security expert I know of (and I know more than I wish...)
a legendary Bitcoin core developer (luke-jr) is explicitly encouraging
the switch to Devuan, while many already use it to run full nodes
using bitcoin-knots. One day we may even release a Devuan-based distro
for this.

ciao


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Re: [DNG] rc.local removed from Debian 9, rly?

[John Hughes]

On 21/11/17 17:53, Jaromil wrote:

On Tue, 21 Nov 2017, John Hughes wrote:


I followed your link to "gitian-building-setup-gitian-debian.md"

Which says that you need to create the rc.local and reboot.  I see no
mention of systemctl.  Am I looking in the wrong place?

nono, as I wrote: that script doesn't works anymore, if ran on a
freshly debootstrapped version of Debian 9. It seemed that rc.local
wasn't executed anymore. But there is some confusion, since both brctl
and ifconfig are legitimately deprecated. Assuming you have done
better checking, then the failure may be caused by them bailing out.


Ok, I'll try a test:

   root@cufic:~# aptitude purge initscripts
   The following packages will be REMOVED:
  initscripts{p}
   0 packages upgraded, 0 newly installed, 1 to remove and 7 not upgraded.
   Need to get 0 B of archives. After unpacking 213 kB will be freed.
   Do you want to continue? [Y/n/?]
   (Reading database ... 188141 files and directories currently installed.)
   Removing initscripts (2.88dsf-59.9) ...
   Processing triggers for systemd (232-25+deb9u1) ...
   Processing triggers for man-db (2.7.6.1-2) ...
   (Reading database ... 188123 files and directories currently installed.)
   Purging configuration files for initscripts (2.88dsf-59.9) ...
   dpkg: warning: while removing initscripts, directory '/var/lib/urandom' not 
empty so not removed
   Processing triggers for systemd (232-25+deb9u1) ...
 
   root@cufic:~# ls -l /etc/rc.local

   -rwxr-xr-x 1 root root 306 Jan 31  2017 /etc/rc.local
   root@cufic:~# rm /etc/rc.local
   root@cufic:~# systemctl reboot

   ...

   ... it boots up ...

   john@cufic:~$ systemctl status rc-local.service
   ● rc-local.service - /etc/rc.local Compatibility
   Loaded: loaded (/lib/systemd/system/rc-local.service; static; vendor 
preset:
  Drop-In: /lib/systemd/system/rc-local.service.d
   └─debian.conf
   Active: inactive (dead)

Seems it wasn't run 'cos rc.local doesn't exist.

Make a rc.local:

   root@cufic:~# cat > /etc/rc.local
   #! /bin/sh

   # Test rc.local

   echo Hello from rc.local

   exit 0
   ^D
   root@cufic:~# chmod a=rx /etc/rc.local
   root@cufic:~# ls -l /etc/rc.local
   -r-xr-xr-x 1 root root 62 Nov 21 18:08 /etc/rc.local
   root@cufic:~# systemctl reboot

   ...

   ... it boots up.

   root@cufic:~# systemctl status rc-local.service
   ● rc-local.service - /etc/rc.local Compatibility
   Loaded: loaded (/lib/systemd/system/rc-local.service; static; vendor 
preset:
  Drop-In: /lib/systemd/system/rc-local.service.d
   └─debian.conf
   Active: active (exited) since Tue 2017-11-21 18:10:23 CET; 1min 9s ago
  Process: 595 ExecStart=/etc/rc.local start (code=exited, status=0/SUCCESS)
Tasks: 0 (limit: 4915)
   CGroup: /system.slice/rc-local.service

   Nov 21 18:10:23 cufic systemd[1]: Starting /etc/rc.local Compatibility...
   Nov 21 18:10:23 cufic rc.local[595]: Hello from rc.local
   Nov 21 18:10:23 cufic systemd[1]: Started /etc/rc.local Compatibility.


So, it looks to me if /etc/rc.local exists and is executable then 
systemd runs it as I thought.


If it didn't work for the bitcoin guys then the problem is somewhere else.

(Damn but the systemd journal is great :-))

Come to think about it, if the problem was that their rc.local was 
failing somewhere then they should be able to see that in the output of 
systemctl or journalctl.


Assuming they're using systemd, of course.  :-)


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Re: [DNG] rc.local removed from Debian 9, rly?

[Jaromil]

On Tue, 21 Nov 2017, John Hughes wrote:

>I followed your link to "gitian-building-setup-gitian-debian.md"
> 
>Which says that you need to create the rc.local and reboot.  I see no
>mention of systemctl.  Am I looking in the wrong place?

nono, as I wrote: that script doesn't works anymore, if ran on a
freshly debootstrapped version of Debian 9. It seemed that rc.local
wasn't executed anymore. But there is some confusion, since both brctl
and ifconfig are legitimately deprecated. Assuming you have done
better checking, then the failure may be caused by them bailing out.


ciao


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Re: [DNG] rc.local removed from Debian 9, rly?

[John Hughes]

On 21/11/17 16:19, Jaromil wrote:


no, the "rumors" I refer to are, as I said, coming from an upstream
project whose CI has broken.


You said:


Here the rumors I've heard from bitcoin core development: a CI script
was broken for three reasons, of which the mandatory activation of
rc.local via systemctl is just one
https://github.com/bitcoin-core/docs/blob/master/gitian-building/gitian-building-setup-gitian-debian.md


I followed your link to "gitian-building-setup-gitian-debian.md"

Which says that you need to create the rc.local and reboot.  I see no 
mention of systemctl.  Am I looking in the wrong place?




I'm glad we also have an important take away for Devuan as Katolaz
points out: to mark the initscripts package as important.


That'll ensure that rc.local exists and is executable, but not that it's 
run -- that'll depend on the init system you're using.


If it's systemd or sysvinit it'll work, for others, maybe, maybe not.

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Re: [DNG] rc.local removed from Debian 9, rly?

[Jaromil]

On Tue, 21 Nov 2017, John Hughes wrote:

> On 21/11/17 16:19, Jaromil wrote:
> > On Tue, 21 Nov 2017, John Hughes wrote:
> > 
> > > > Then I believe we also agree that rc.local is a serious regressions?
> > > What regression?
> > the fact that besides creating it and making it executable, one must
> > also activate the service unit.
> 
> No, you don't.  systemd runs systemd-rc-local-generator at boot time and
> after any systemd configuration change.  You don't have to activate the
> unit, that's done for you.

OK, then I'm wrong. I'm very happy of that too! thanks.  The new issue
about initscripts is orthogonal to my arguments. The issue on
bitcoin-core I guess we have only because of other deprecations.

Again, that's really what this discussion list is very useful for.
No representative of Devuan should go making public statements of such
importance without grinding them here first.

ciao
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Re: [DNG] rc.local removed from Debian 9, rly?

[John Hughes]

On 21/11/17 16:19, Jaromil wrote:

On Tue, 21 Nov 2017, John Hughes wrote:


Then I believe we also agree that rc.local is a serious regressions?

What regression?

the fact that besides creating it and making it executable, one must
also activate the service unit.


No, you don't.  systemd runs systemd-rc-local-generator at boot time and 
after any systemd configuration change.  You don't have to activate the 
unit, that's done for you.

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Re: [DNG] rc.local removed from Debian 9, rly?

[Jaromil]

On Tue, 21 Nov 2017, John Hughes wrote:

> > Then I believe we also agree that rc.local is a serious regressions?
> 
> What regression?

the fact that besides creating it and making it executable, one must
also activate the service unit.

> > In Debian right now I don't even see a debate,
> 
> A debate about what?  Whether rc.local should be run?  Whoever said it
> shouldn't be?  Or that it won't be in the future?

I am afraid that is not enough to create /etc/rc.local to have it ran
by default. just afraid, not checked enough, hence asking

> Rumors.  From some of the least reliable tech sites on the web
> (stackoverflow!  Ack Pfft!).  Did you see any of these "rumors" on
> an actual Debian site or mailing list?

no, the "rumors" I refer to are, as I said, coming from an upstream
project whose CI has broken.

I'm glad we also have an important take away for Devuan as Katolaz
points out: to mark the initscripts package as important.

ciao


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Re: [DNG] rc.local removed from Debian 9, rly?

[KatolaZ]

On Tue, Nov 21, 2017 at 04:05:47PM +0100, John Hughes wrote:
> On 21/11/17 15:53, KatolaZ wrote:
> >
> >Also, it is not clear to me *when* the automagic systemd tool that
> >should create the systemd service (if rc.local is executable) is
> >run.
> 
> man systemd.generator
> ...
>    Generators are small binaries that live in
>    /usr/lib/systemd/user-generators/ and other directories listed
>above.
>    systemd(1) will execute those binaries very early at bootup and
>at configuration reload time — before unit files are loaded.
> ...
> 

Thanks for clarifying that.

> 
> >What matters is that we need to retain initscripts as "important".
> 
> If you have sysvinit then it's a damn site more than "important", it's a
> dependency for sysvinit-core.
> 

I was not referring only to sysvinit. Since the expectation for any
"pluggable" init system is to not break anything that works (at least
in Devuan), this point must be taken into account by any candidate
alternative init system (at least in Devuan).

HND

KatolaZ

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Re: [DNG] rc.local removed from Debian 9, rly?

[John Hughes]

On 21/11/17 15:53, KatolaZ wrote:


Also, it is not clear to me *when* the automagic systemd tool that
should create the systemd service (if rc.local is executable) is
run.


man systemd.generator
...
   Generators are small binaries that live in
   /usr/lib/systemd/user-generators/ and other directories listed
   above.
   systemd(1) will execute those binaries very early at bootup and
   at configuration reload time — before unit files are loaded.
...



What matters is that we need to retain initscripts as "important".


If you have sysvinit then it's a damn site more than "important", it's a 
dependency for sysvinit-core.


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Re: [DNG] rc.local removed from Debian 9, rly?

[John Hughes]

On 21/11/17 15:20, Jaromil wrote:

dear John and Olaf,

Thanks for proving me wrong, this is exactly what I hoped for.


I'm not actually sure you've been "proved wrong" -- in the case of a 
Debian 9 system without the initscripts package installed (i.e. a fresh 
install with systemd as pid 1 for example) then /etc/rc.local will not 
be automatically created.  However if it *is* created then systemd will 
run it.



I also note as you point out that this behavior may be
counterproductive for the public perception of this project: a way or
another I also represent Devuan and maybe I should hold off this
attitude and post only things that I am sure of. This is difficult for
me, since I conceive spaces for debate as this and other mailinglists
as spaces where to share doubts, fears, needs and dreams even more
than findings and announcements, for which an article or a twit
@DevuanOrg may be better.


There can be nothing wrong in admitting ignorance or searching for 
information.  However making strong, even aggressive or insulting, 
statements based on partial knowledge seems unlikely to advance the 
cause of Peace on Earth.  :-)




while the rc.local case its just that people don't care
about the regressions introduced by systemd.


Except that systemd introduces no regressions with rc.local.  In fact 
it's systemd that includes the compatibility code to make sure that 
/etc/rc.local is run if it exists.  This comes from the systemd team, 
not from Debian:


rc-local-generator.c

  Copyright 2010 Lennart Poettering
  Copyright 2011 Michal Schmidt



Then I believe we also agree that rc.local is a serious regressions?


What regression?


because it now needs to be activated via two new systemctl commands,


No it doesn't.  The systemd-rc-local-generator is run by systemd, users 
don't need to worry about it.


https://www.freedesktop.org/software/systemd/man/systemd.generator.html


In Debian right now I don't even see a debate,


A debate about what?  Whether rc.local should be run?  Whoever said it 
shouldn't be?  Or that it won't be in the future?



only rumors of "deprecation" in other
avenues. Whatever that may mean for Debian and its future.


Rumors.  From some of the least reliable tech sites on the web 
(stackoverflow!  Ack Pfft!).  Did you see any of these "rumors" on an 
actual Debian site or mailing list?


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Re: [DNG] rc.local removed from Debian 9, rly?

[KatolaZ]

On Tue, Nov 21, 2017 at 03:07:07PM +0100, John Hughes wrote:

[cut]

> 
> If you have the initscripts package installed then /etc/rc.local will be
> created for you (if it doesn't exist) and it will be run (if you are using
> sysvinit or systemd at least).
> 
> If you don't install initscripts (i.e. if you're using systemd and you don't
> explicitly install it or something that depends on it) then /etc/rc.local
> will not be created for you, but will be automatically run if it does exist
> (and is executable).

As Olaf explained, the problem seems to originate in the fact that the
initscripts package is not any more marked as important. Hence, if you
don't have it, you won't get it by default. I personally agree on the
fact that this is somehow a regression.

Also, it is not clear to me *when* the automagic systemd tool that
should create the systemd service (if rc.local is executable) is
run. *If* it's only run during systemd's postinst, this means that no
rc.local is created or honoured by default by systemd (unless it
already exists in the system when the systemd package is installed),
but we need to double-check it.

What matters is that we need to retain initscripts as "important".

> 
> I'll be installing some new Stretch systems later this week, if I find
> anything different I'll get back to the list.

Great. Thanks.

HND

KatolaZ

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Re: [DNG] rc.local removed from Debian 9, rly?

[Jaromil]

dear John and Olaf,

Thanks for proving me wrong, this is exactly what I hoped for.

In fact my mail was perhaps badly worded and contained already a rant,
but was really about asking this list for a critical analysis. For 2
main reasons: 1) there are very knowledgeable people (like you both)
that often are capable of checking better than me 2) I am a lazy wolf
and prefer writing a mail than checking myself.

I also note as you point out that this behavior may be
counterproductive for the public perception of this project: a way or
another I also represent Devuan and maybe I should hold off this
attitude and post only things that I am sure of. This is difficult for
me, since I conceive spaces for debate as this and other mailinglists
as spaces where to share doubts, fears, needs and dreams even more
than findings and announcements, for which an article or a twit
@DevuanOrg may be better.

anyway, point taken. I know well that I'm wrong sometimes, just like
now. So now I agree that considering this and the other discussion
about redis, there is no real "vandalism" happening in Debian. About
redis was just a maintainer fumbling around broken scripts through
releases, while the rc.local case its just that people don't care
about the regressions introduced by systemd.

Then I believe we also agree that rc.local is a serious regressions?
because it now needs to be activated via two new systemctl commands,
forcing millions of people around the world to go lookup those
commands instead of keeping the default.

I believe defaults should be kept intact. In the worst case there
should be clear documentation of their change. In Debian right now I
don't even see a debate, only rumors of "deprecation" in other
avenues. Whatever that may mean for Debian and its future.


ciao


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Re: [DNG] rc.local removed from Debian 9, rly?

[John Hughes]

On 21/11/17 14:54, Rowland Penny wrote:

On Tue, 21 Nov 2017 14:48:49 +0100
John Hughes  wrote:


No, no systemctl commands are needed, systemd-rc-local-generator will
enable rc-local.service if /etc/rc.local is executable, which it is
by default on Debian Stretch (AKA Debian 9).


Yes, but will 'systemd-rc-local-generator' exist on a Devuan OS where
no systemd components are loaded by default ??


Obviously not.

But what does that have to do with the price of eggs in China?  If 
you're using sysvinit instead of systemd then, on a Debian 9 system 
/etc/init.d/rc.local will run /etc/rc.local.  (How this works for other 
init systems is left as an exercise for the implementer).



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Re: [DNG] rc.local removed from Debian 9, rly?

[John Hughes]

On 21/11/17 11:58, Olaf Meeuwissen wrote:

A quick check of the packages that would pull [ initscripts ] in (as per 
massaged
`apt-cache rdepends`) on Stretch gives:

   $ apt-cache rdepends initscripts | sed -n '/^ /p' | while read pkg; do \
 echo $pkg ; apt-cache depends $pkg | grep initscripts; done \
 | sed -n '/^[^ ]/{ H; N; /Depends/P }'
   sysvinit-core


Aha.  My systems have mostly been upgraded from Jessie -- I guess that's 
why they have initscripts installed, it seems nothing else would force 
them to have it.


So, it seems to me that the actual state of /etc/rc.local in Debian 9 is:

If you have the initscripts package installed then /etc/rc.local will be 
created for you (if it doesn't exist) and it will be run (if you are 
using sysvinit or systemd at least).


If you don't install initscripts (i.e. if you're using systemd and you 
don't explicitly install it or something that depends on it) then 
/etc/rc.local will not be created for you, but will be automatically run 
if it does exist (and is executable).


I'll be installing some new Stretch systems later this week, if I find 
anything different I'll get back to the list.

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Re: [DNG] rc.local removed from Debian 9, rly?

[Rowland Penny]

On Tue, 21 Nov 2017 14:48:49 +0100
John Hughes  wrote:

> 
> No, no systemctl commands are needed, systemd-rc-local-generator will 
> enable rc-local.service if /etc/rc.local is executable, which it is
> by default on Debian Stretch (AKA Debian 9).
> 

Yes, but will 'systemd-rc-local-generator' exist on a Devuan OS where
no systemd components are loaded by default ??

Rowland
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Re: [DNG] rc.local removed from Debian 9, rly?

[John Hughes]

On 21/11/17 14:21, Jaromil wrote:

On Tue, 21 Nov 2017, John Hughes wrote:


On 20/11/17 11:30, Jaromil wrote:

  1- it [ rc.local ] is not created by default

It exists on my stretch systems.

I always and only mean Debian 9. So I will reformulate:

1- /etc/rc.local does not exist by default on Debian 9.


Debian Stretch is Debian 9.

/etc/rc.local exists by default on Debian 9



this is not a major problem since most scripts won't fail.


  2- it is not executed in Debian Stretch (9) even if existing

I, as you might have guessed, use systemd, so rc.local is started by
rc-local.service:

is it the case that one must run two systemctl commands in order for
rc.local to be processed, or will rc.local just be found and executed?


No, no systemctl commands are needed, systemd-rc-local-generator will 
enable rc-local.service if /etc/rc.local is executable, which it is by 
default on Debian Stretch (AKA Debian 9).



I know about rc-local.service, my point is not about that being
available.

I believe both points 1 and 2 are regressions.

2 is a breaking regression in most setups.


What regressions?

https://upload.wikimedia.org/score/i/x/ixrxdpiezwcsj11b0mb4buzmt7p4025/ixrxdpie.ogg
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Re: [DNG] rc.local removed from Debian 9, rly?

[Olaf Meeuwissen]

Hi Jaromil, list,

Jaromil writes:

> dear Olaf,
>
> On Mon, 20 Nov 2017, Olaf Meeuwissen wrote:
>
>> Crying wolf like this time and again is not doing Devuan any good.
>
> No, I am the wolf.

I do not mean this personally.  I just recalled the mail that set off
the redis discussion and this one and noticed one thing in common: a
lack of backing up claims without proper investigation.  If anyone wants
to make a claim about anyone else "sabotaging" non-systemd systems, just
show some cold, hard facts to back it up before pointing fingers one way
or another.

# FTR, I've been using Debian since 1998 and switched all my machines to
# Devuan in 2017 because, eh, I think systemd is getting in *my* way.

>> FWIW, I just modified the /etc/rc.local on two of my Devuan ASCII
>> machines to fix up ownership on an ext4 mount and that worked just
>> fine.  But then again, initscripts *is* devuanized ;-)
>>
>> Hope this helps,
>
> It doesn't: you are bringing confusion.

Actually, with respect to the quoted paragraph, you're probably right.
I should have left that out.  It detracts from the rest of what I wrote.

> You have checked Devuan. I'm talking about Debian 9 "Stretch"

In the same mail you replied to, I also wrote:

>> Just a simple `grep -rl rc.local /var/lib/dpkg/info` is all that it took
>> me to find this out on my Devuan Jessie.  To cross check, I went over to
>> package.debian.org to have a look at their initscripts package.  stretch
>> has 2.88dsf-59.9, buster and sid have 2.88dsf-50.10.  Pulled the debian/
>> directory tarball and checked initscripts.postinst.  Nothing changed and
>> rc.local will still be created.

So, yes, I *did* check Stretch and Buster and Sid.  To make really sure,
I just eyeballed the initscripts.postinst files again and they *create*
an /etc/rc.local file 'on first install and when upgrading from versions
before "2.86.ds1-16"'.  To make absolutely really sure, I checked the
Debian Docker images for Stretch and Buster.  Neither has an initscripts
package installed and /etc/rc.local is missing.  I installed initscripts
on both and in both cases an /etc/rc.local file was created.

# FTR, both the Debian Stretch and Buster Docker images come *without*
# systemd installed.  This is due to the nature of containers as they
# are supposed to run just a task-specific, dedicated program as their
# PID1.  For the Debian containers that is /bin/bash, BTW.

> Here the rumors I've heard from bitcoin core development: a CI script
> was broken for three reasons, of which the mandatory activation of
> rc.local via systemctl is just one.
> https://github.com/bitcoin-core/docs/blob/master/gitian-building/gitian-building-setup-gitian-debian.md
>
> also "rumors" of "deprecation" are all around the web with a search:
> https://stackoverflow.com/questions/44797694/where-is-rc-local-in-debian-9-debian-stretch
> http://www.itechlounge.net/2017/10/linux-how-to-add-rc-local-in-debian-9/

I cannot say I have really *read* these but I have at least skimmed them
and the problem seems to be that they assume /etc/rc.local is provided
by some package that is installed by default.  Until Jessie, initscripts
was Priority: required so it was installed by default.  As of Stretch,
it has become Priority: optional and will not be installed by default.

A quick check of the packages that would pull it in (as per massaged
`apt-cache rdepends`) on Stretch gives:

  $ apt-cache rdepends initscripts | sed -n '/^ /p' | while read pkg; do \
echo $pkg ; apt-cache depends $pkg | grep initscripts; done \
| sed -n '/^[^ ]/{ H; N; /Depends/P }'
  sysvinit-core
  debian-edu-config
  console-setup-linux
  console-setup-freebsd
  console-log

but note that there are a fair number of packages that declare a Breaks:
or Conflicts: which may warrant further investigation.

As for Devuan, it flags sysvinit-core as Priority: important and
therefore the initscripts package will be pulled in.

> there is no official mention on Debian about a "deprecation", which
> I'd consider vandalism. I am very happy of that and I'm asking if its
> real or not that is "deprecated" as others write and if anyone knows
> more about Debian's long term intention with rc.local, since its
> function has already changed:
>
> 1- it is not created by default

Please note the that the /etc/rc.local that is created by default is no
more than

  #!/bin/sh -e
  exit 0

once you remove the documentation.  Anyone that knows about and needs an
rc.local can whip up something more meaningful in, what?, 10 seconds.

> 2- it is not executed in Debian Stretch (9) even if existing

Now, here is something I am not sure about but the content of the pages
in your last two links seem to suggests that it is *systemd* that no
longer honours a /etc/rc.local by default and requires you to explicitly
enable it.  If that's the case, I would not call that Debian vandalism
but systemd vandalism and every distribution that defaults to systemd
will be affected alike, not just 

Re: [DNG] rc.local removed from Debian 9, rly?

[Jaromil]

On Tue, 21 Nov 2017, John Hughes wrote:

>On 20/11/17 11:30, Jaromil wrote:
> 
>  1- it [ rc.local ] is not created by default
> 
>It exists on my stretch systems.

I always and only mean Debian 9. So I will reformulate:

1- /etc/rc.local does not exist by default on Debian 9.

this is not a major problem since most scripts won't fail.

>  2- it is not executed in Debian Stretch (9) even if existing
> 
>I, as you might have guessed, use systemd, so rc.local is started by
>rc-local.service:

is it the case that one must run two systemctl commands in order for
rc.local to be processed, or will rc.local just be found and executed?
I know about rc-local.service, my point is not about that being
available.

I believe both points 1 and 2 are regressions.

2 is a breaking regression in most setups.

ciao
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Re: [DNG] rc.local removed from Debian 9, rly?

[John Hughes]

On 20/11/17 11:30, Jaromil wrote:

1- it [ rc.local ] is not created by default


It exists on my stretch systems.  As  Olaf Meeuwissen said it is created 
by initscripts.postinst:


   #
   # Create /etc/rc.local on first time install and when upgrading from
   # versions before "2.86.ds1-16"
   #
   if dpkg --compare-versions "$PREV_VER" lt "2.86.ds1-16"
   then
    if [ ! -e /etc/rc.local ]; then
    cat << EOF > /etc/rc.local
   # rc.local
   #
   # This script is executed at the end of each multiuser runlevel.
   # Make sure that the script will "exit 0" on success or any other
   # value on error.
   #
   # In order to enable or disable this script just change the execution
   # bits.
   #
   # By default this script does nothing.

   exit 0
   EOF
    # make sure it's enabled by default.
    chmod 755 /etc/rc.local
    fi
   fi



2- it is not executed in Debian Stretch (9) even if existing


I, as you might have guessed, use systemd, so rc.local is started by 
rc-local.service:


   ● rc-local.service - /etc/rc.local Compatibility
   Loaded: loaded (/lib/systemd/system/rc-local.service; static;
   vendor preset:
  Drop-In: /lib/systemd/system/rc-local.service.d
   └─debian.conf
   Active: active (exited) since Mon 2017-10-30 11:03:59 CET; 3
   weeks 1 days ago
  Process: 655 ExecStart=/etc/rc.local start (code=exited,
   status=0/SUCCESS)
    Tasks: 0 (limit: 4915)
   CGroup: /system.slice/rc-local.service


The service rc-local.service is:

   # This unit gets pulled automatically into multi-user.target by
   # systemd-rc-local-generator if /etc/rc.local is executable.
   [Unit]
   Description=/etc/rc.local Compatibility
   ConditionFileIsExecutable=/etc/rc.local
   After=network.target

   [Service]
   Type=forking
   ExecStart=/etc/rc.local start
   TimeoutSec=0
   RemainAfterExit=yes
   GuessMainPID=no
   # This unit gets pulled automatically into multi-user.target by
   # systemd-rc-local-generator if /etc/rc.local is executable.
   [Unit]
   Description=/etc/rc.local Compatibility
   ConditionFileIsExecutable=/etc/rc.local
   After=network.target

   [Service]
   Type=forking
   ExecStart=/etc/rc.local start
   TimeoutSec=0
   RemainAfterExit=yes
   GuessMainPID=no


The source of the generator, systemd-rc-local-generator, is at 
https://github.com/systemd/systemd/blob/master/src/rc-local-generator/rc-local-generator.c



please correct me if I'm wrong. That would help.


I think you're wrong.
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Re: [DNG] rc.local removed from Debian 9, rly?

[Stefan Krusche]

Am Montag 20 November 2017 schrieb Hendrik Boom:
> On Sun, Nov 19, 2017 at 08:32:07PM +0100, Arnt Karlsen wrote:
> > On Sun, 19 Nov 2017 18:52:13 +0100, Didier wrote in message
> >
> > :
> > > Le 19/11/2017 à 15:10, Jaromil a écrit :
> > > > hi all
> > > >
> > > > Can anyone clarify how /etc/rc.local is being removed in Debian 9?
> > >
> > >      Dunno how difficult it is to re-create rc.local functionality
> > > under Systemd dictature, but, when init is sysvinit, this doesn't
> > > look like a diffcult problem. Therefore, don't care (-:
> > >
> > >          Didier
> >
> > ..looks like we are _the_ /etc/rc.local back-up distro. ;o)
> >
> > ..I did a wee razzia, it's been quietly gone for quite a while,
> > maybe since the 2014 systemd coup in Debian:
>
> My /etc/rc.local has been around for a long time, has survived the
> trip from Debian jessie to Devuan jessie, and consists entirely of
> commands I put there myself and comments of unknown origin.
>
> Here are the comments:
>
> #!/bin/sh -e
> #
> # rc.local
> #
> # This script is executed at the end of each multiuser runlevel.
> # Make sure that the script will "exit 0" on success or any other
> # value on error.
> #
> # In order to enable or disable this script just change the execution
> # bits.
> #
> # By default this script does nothing.
>
I've got the same on Debian wheezy.

Stefan
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Re: [DNG] rc.local removed from Debian 9, rly?

[Jaromil]

dear Olaf,

On Mon, 20 Nov 2017, Olaf Meeuwissen wrote:

> Crying wolf like this time and again is not doing Devuan any good.

No, I am the wolf.

> FWIW, I just modified the /etc/rc.local on two of my Devuan ASCII
> machines to fix up ownership on an ext4 mount and that worked just
> fine.  But then again, initscripts *is* devuanized ;-)
> 
> Hope this helps,

It doesn't: you are bringing confusion.

You have checked Devuan. I'm talking about Debian 9 "Stretch"

Here the rumors I've heard from bitcoin core development: a CI script
was broken for three reasons, of which the mandatory activation of
rc.local via systemctl is just one.
https://github.com/bitcoin-core/docs/blob/master/gitian-building/gitian-building-setup-gitian-debian.md

also "rumors" of "deprecation" are all around the web with a search:
https://stackoverflow.com/questions/44797694/where-is-rc-local-in-debian-9-debian-stretch
http://www.itechlounge.net/2017/10/linux-how-to-add-rc-local-in-debian-9/

there is no official mention on Debian about a "deprecation", which
I'd consider vandalism. I am very happy of that and I'm asking if its
real or not that is "deprecated" as others write and if anyone knows
more about Debian's long term intention with rc.local, since its
function has already changed:

1- it is not created by default

2- it is not executed in Debian Stretch (9) even if existing

please correct me if I'm wrong. That would help.

ciao

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Re: [DNG] rc.local removed from Debian 9, rly?

[Arnt Gulbrandsen]

Olaf Meeuwissen writes:

Crying wolf like this time and again is not doing Devuan any good.


Amen.
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Re: [DNG] rc.local removed from Debian 9, rly?

[Olaf Meeuwissen]

Hi,

Jaromil writes:

> On 19 November 2017 21:14:26 CET, Didier Kryn  wrote:
>
>>Conclusion: initscripts profides the infrastructure to invoke
>>/etc/rc.local if it exists, but it doesn't provide an empty
>>/etc/rc.local.
>
> Ok, this is what I hoped and it still makes sense.
>
> IMHO deprecation means vandalism may happen
> in the future: some people should be vigilant and there
> should be already a clear statement and discussion
> about what this "deprecation" means.
>
> if it just means that /etc/rc.local is not created by default
> but processed if found executable, then it would be fine:
> some UNIX systems did that already in the past,
> but I am afraid the word "deprecation" means something else.

FYI, /etc/rc.local is created from initscripts.postinst on first install
and when upgrading from versions before "2.86.ds1-16".

Just because a file is not found by `dpkg -S` doesn't mean it is not
provided.  There are quite a number of files that are generated in
postinstall scripts.  Next time, before making rash accusations and
dreaming up conspiracy theories, take a *good* look.

Just a simple `grep -rl rc.local /var/lib/dpkg/info` is all that it took
me to find this out on my Devuan Jessie.  To cross check, I went over to
package.debian.org to have a look at their initscripts package.  stretch
has 2.88dsf-59.9, buster and sid have 2.88dsf-50.10.  Pulled the debian/
directory tarball and checked initscripts.postinst.  Nothing changed and
rc.local will still be created.

Crying wolf like this time and again is not doing Devuan any good.

FWIW, I just modified the /etc/rc.local on two of my Devuan ASCII
machines to fix up ownership on an ext4 mount and that worked just
fine.  But then again, initscripts *is* devuanized ;-)

Hope this helps,
--
Olaf Meeuwissen, LPIC-2FSF Associate Member since 2004-01-27
 GnuPG key: F84A2DD9/B3C0 2F47 EA19 64F4 9F13  F43E B8A4 A88A F84A 2DD9
 Support Free Softwarehttps://my.fsf.org/donate
 Join the Free Software Foundation  https://my.fsf.org/join
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Re: [DNG] rc.local removed from Debian 9, rly?

[Rowland Penny]

On Mon, 20 Nov 2017 10:01:17 +0100
John Hughes  wrote:

> On 19/11/17 15:10, Jaromil wrote:
> > Following up after the conversation on redis, when we had the
> > elected Debian leader chiming in here to defend his position and
> > keep deleting init.d scripts, I still believe this is again "even
> > worst than I thought" and it is "vandalism".
> But Jaromil, as Chris Lamb pointed out that is not what happened:
> 
> Chris Lamb:
> > I am the maintainer of Redis in Debian. All I have done is removed
> > some ill-conceived hooks that were not used by anyone. I have not
> > dropped sysvinit support and nor do I have any intention to do so.
> > I only ask politely that you do stop to refering to my work as
> > "vandalism".
> To summarise.
> 
> 1. the upstream redis distribution does not include an init script. 
> (There is an example init script in their git, but nothing in the 
> distributed tarball).
> 
> 2. Debian wrote their own init script.
> 
> 3. At some point they added an undocumented feature to their init 
> script.  This feature does not exist in the upstream example init
> script.
> 
> 4. Since the feature was buggy, and since it had never been
> documented, Chris Lamb removed it.
> 
> 5. Some people misread the commit message as saying that sysvinit 
> support was being dropped.  They didn't check whether that was the
> case by looking at the publicly available package and source.
> 
> Is this the Devuan policy?  "Assume bad faith"?
> 

And now 'A T' cannot reply to the correct thread ;-)

Rowland
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Re: [DNG] rc.local removed from Debian 9, rly?

[John Hughes]

On 19/11/17 15:10, Jaromil wrote:

Following up after the conversation on redis, when we had the elected
Debian leader chiming in here to defend his position and keep deleting
init.d scripts, I still believe this is again "even worst than I
thought" and it is "vandalism".

But Jaromil, as Chris Lamb pointed out that is not what happened:

Chris Lamb:

I am the maintainer of Redis in Debian. All I have done is removed some
ill-conceived hooks that were not used by anyone. I have not dropped
sysvinit support and nor do I have any intention to do so. I only ask
politely that you do stop to refering to my work as "vandalism".

To summarise.

1. the upstream redis distribution does not include an init script. 
(There is an example init script in their git, but nothing in the 
distributed tarball).


2. Debian wrote their own init script.

3. At some point they added an undocumented feature to their init 
script.  This feature does not exist in the upstream example init script.


4. Since the feature was buggy, and since it had never been documented, 
Chris Lamb removed it.


5. Some people misread the commit message as saying that sysvinit 
support was being dropped.  They didn't check whether that was the case 
by looking at the publicly available package and source.


Is this the Devuan policy?  "Assume bad faith"?

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Re: [DNG] rc.local removed from Debian 9, rly?

[Jaromil]

On 19 November 2017 21:14:26 CET, Didier Kryn  wrote:

>Conclusion: initscripts profides the infrastructure to invoke 
>/etc/rc.local if it exists, but it doesn't provide an empty
>/etc/rc.local.

Ok, this is what I hoped and it still makes sense.

IMHO deprecation means vandalism may happen
in the future: some people should be vigilant and there
should be already a clear statement and discussion
about what this "deprecation" means.

if it just means that /etc/rc.local is not created by default
but processed if found executable, then it would be fine:
some UNIX systems did that already in the past,
but I am afraid the word "deprecation" means something else.


ciao
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Re: [DNG] rc.local removed from Debian 9, rly?

[Arnt Karlsen]

On Sun, 19 Nov 2017 23:30:36 +, Dave wrote in message 
<352aa878-82d2-bfbc-28be-e28f8d97f...@barradas.free-online.co.uk>:

> On 19/11/17 20:40, Arnt Karlsen wrote:
> > On Sun, 19 Nov 2017 19:32:48 +, Dave wrote in message
> > <755e8783-b399-2941-0d2d-40aac6629...@barradas.free-online.co.uk>:
> >  
> >> On 19/11/17 14:10, Jaromil wrote:  
> >>> hi all
> >>>
> >>> Can anyone clarify how /etc/rc.local is being removed in Debian 9?
> >>>
> >>> I got this from rumors in bitcoin's core development, since I'm
> >>> not subscribed to Debian lists. The rumor is confirmed by some
> >>> online debates on gitlab and stack overflow.
> >>>
> >>> Can someone point out to the decision process for this?
> >>>
> >>> Following up after the conversation on redis, when we had the
> >>> elected Debian leader chiming in here to defend his position and
> >>> keep deleting init.d scripts, I still believe this is again "even
> >>> worst than I thought" and it is "vandalism".
> >>>
> >>> This will certainly keep playing in favor of our fork since
> >>> no-nonsense people will come this way, but is very painful to see
> >>> Debian's users are being mistreated to this point.
> >>>
> >>> What is happening, and is a pattern, is that parts of Debian that
> >>> work well and are widely used by people are being arbitrarily
> >>> removed. This doesn't make Debian "universal" anymore, while
> >>> betraying once again its mandate of respecting user's freedom.
> >>> Noone can trust Debian if it keeps changing things that work for
> >>> some, just because of imposing a new thing that others like. Well
> >>> beyond and nothwitstanding the qualities of any free and open
> >>> source software, Debian is clearly harming another sort of
> >>> freedom, the sort that was granted in the free space we all knew
> >>> rc.local has always been..
> >>>
> >>> is there any internal discussion about such governance issues in
> >>> Debian? is there any hope the current leadership will change and
> >>> perhaps repair what this vandalism is breaking?
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> ciao
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> ___
> >>> Dng mailing list
> >>> Dng@lists.dyne.org
> >>> https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng  
> >> I run debian sid on my laptop. I don't know why it has been done
> >> but if I've understood what you need to know, this is how rc.local
> >> is now at the sharp end:-
> >>
> >> /etc/init.d/rc.local  
> > ..you have no /etc/rc.local ?
> >  
> >> #! /bin/sh
> >> ### BEGIN INIT INFO
> >> # Provides:  rc.local
> >> # Required-Start:    $all
> >> # Required-Stop:
> >> # Default-Start: 2 3 4 5
> >> # Default-Stop:
> >> # Short-Description: Run /etc/rc.local if it exist
> >> ### END INIT INFO
> >>
> >>
> >> PATH=/sbin:/usr/sbin:/bin:/usr/bin
> >>
> >> . /lib/init/vars.sh
> >> . /lib/lsb/init-functions
> >>
> >> do_start() {
> >>       if [ -x /etc/rc.local ]; then
> >>           [ "$VERBOSE" != no ] && log_begin_msg "Running local
> >> boot scripts (/etc/rc.local)"
> >>           /etc/rc.local
> >>           ES=$?
> >>           [ "$VERBOSE" != no ] && log_end_msg $ES
> >>           return $ES
> >>       fi
> >> }
> >>
> >> case "$1" in
> >>       start)
> >>       do_start
> >>       ;;
> >>       restart|reload|force-reload)
> >>       echo "Error: argument '$1' not supported" >&2
> >>       exit 3
> >>       ;;
> >>       stop|status)
> >>       # No-op
> >>       exit 0
> >>       ;;
> >>       *)
> >>       echo "Usage: $0 start|stop" >&2
> >>       exit 3
> >>       ;;
> >> esac
> >>
> >> +++
> >>
> >> /etc/rc.local
> >>
> >> #!/bin/sh -e
> >> #
> >> # rc.local
> >> #
> >> # This script is executed at the end of each multiuser runlevel.
> >> # Make sure that the script will "exit 0" on success or any other
> >> # value on error.
> >> #
> >> # In order to enable or disable this script just change the
> >> execution # bits.
> >> #
> >> # By default this script does nothing.
> >>
> >> exit 0
> >>
> >> ++
> >>
> >> DaveT  
> > ..how old is your /etc/init.d/rc.local?
> > As in: ll /etc/init.d/rc.local & -l initscripts |grep ^ii |fmt
> > -tu
> >
> > ..mine are:
> > root@d44:~# ll /etc/init.d/rc.local & -l initscripts |grep ^ii
> > |fmt -tu
> > -rwxr-xr-x 1 root root 820 May 29  2015 /etc/init.d/rc.local
> > ii initscripts 2.88dsf-59.2+devuan2 amd64 scripts for initializing
> > and shutting down the system
> > root@d44:~#
> > rir:~# ll /etc/init.d/rc.local & -l initscripts |grep ^ii |fmt
> > -tu -rwxr-xr-x 1 root root 820 Apr 21  2014 /etc/init.d/rc.local
> > ii initscripts 2.88dsf-59 armhf scripts for initializing and
> > shutting down the system
> > rir:~#
> > root@raspberrypi:~# ll /etc/init.d/rc.local & -l initscripts
> > |grep ^ii |fmt -tu -rwxr-xr-x 1 root root 782 Oct 15
> > 2012 /etc/init.d/rc.local ii initscripts 2.88dsf-41+deb7u1 armhf
> > scripts for initializing and shutting down the system
> > 

Re: [DNG] rc.local removed from Debian 9, rly?

[Hendrik Boom]

On Sun, Nov 19, 2017 at 08:32:07PM +0100, Arnt Karlsen wrote:
> On Sun, 19 Nov 2017 18:52:13 +0100, Didier wrote in message 
> :
> 
> > Le 19/11/2017 à 15:10, Jaromil a écrit :
> > > hi all
> > >
> > > Can anyone clarify how /etc/rc.local is being removed in Debian 9?
> > > 
> > 
> >      Dunno how difficult it is to re-create rc.local functionality
> > under Systemd dictature, but, when init is sysvinit, this doesn't
> > look like a diffcult problem. Therefore, don't care (-:
> > 
> >          Didier
> 
> ..looks like we are _the_ /etc/rc.local back-up distro. ;o)
> 
> ..I did a wee razzia, it's been quietly gone for quite a while, 
> maybe since the 2014 systemd coup in Debian:

My /etc/rc.local has been around for a long time, has survived the 
trip from Debian jessie to Devuan jessie, and consists entirely of 
commands I put there myself and comments of unknown origin.

Here are the comments:

#!/bin/sh -e
#
# rc.local
#
# This script is executed at the end of each multiuser runlevel.
# Make sure that the script will "exit 0" on success or any other
# value on error.
#
# In order to enable or disable this script just change the execution
# bits.
#
# By default this script does nothing.

They do indeed look as if the originated in a Linux distribution 
sometime in the past, which would have been Debian, sonce I' ws using 
this before the switch to Devuan.

So there has been a change if /etc/rc.local is no longer provided by 
the distro.

Not providing it makes sense, because then an upgrade won't be 
asking whether to replace the modified one with the new one.

-- hendrik
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Re: [DNG] rc.local removed from Debian 9, rly?

[Dave Turner]

On 19/11/17 20:40, Arnt Karlsen wrote:

On Sun, 19 Nov 2017 19:32:48 +, Dave wrote in message
<755e8783-b399-2941-0d2d-40aac6629...@barradas.free-online.co.uk>:


On 19/11/17 14:10, Jaromil wrote:

hi all

Can anyone clarify how /etc/rc.local is being removed in Debian 9?

I got this from rumors in bitcoin's core development, since I'm not
subscribed to Debian lists. The rumor is confirmed by some online
debates on gitlab and stack overflow.

Can someone point out to the decision process for this?

Following up after the conversation on redis, when we had the
elected Debian leader chiming in here to defend his position and
keep deleting init.d scripts, I still believe this is again "even
worst than I thought" and it is "vandalism".

This will certainly keep playing in favor of our fork since
no-nonsense people will come this way, but is very painful to see
Debian's users are being mistreated to this point.

What is happening, and is a pattern, is that parts of Debian that
work well and are widely used by people are being arbitrarily
removed. This doesn't make Debian "universal" anymore, while
betraying once again its mandate of respecting user's freedom.
Noone can trust Debian if it keeps changing things that work for
some, just because of imposing a new thing that others like. Well
beyond and nothwitstanding the qualities of any free and open
source software, Debian is clearly harming another sort of freedom,
the sort that was granted in the free space we all knew rc.local
has always been..

is there any internal discussion about such governance issues in
Debian? is there any hope the current leadership will change and
perhaps repair what this vandalism is breaking?


ciao



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I run debian sid on my laptop. I don't know why it has been done but
if I've understood what you need to know, this is how rc.local is now
at the sharp end:-

/etc/init.d/rc.local

..you have no /etc/rc.local ?


#! /bin/sh
### BEGIN INIT INFO
# Provides:  rc.local
# Required-Start:    $all
# Required-Stop:
# Default-Start: 2 3 4 5
# Default-Stop:
# Short-Description: Run /etc/rc.local if it exist
### END INIT INFO


PATH=/sbin:/usr/sbin:/bin:/usr/bin

. /lib/init/vars.sh
. /lib/lsb/init-functions

do_start() {
      if [ -x /etc/rc.local ]; then
          [ "$VERBOSE" != no ] && log_begin_msg "Running local
boot scripts (/etc/rc.local)"
          /etc/rc.local
          ES=$?
          [ "$VERBOSE" != no ] && log_end_msg $ES
          return $ES
      fi
}

case "$1" in
      start)
      do_start
      ;;
      restart|reload|force-reload)
      echo "Error: argument '$1' not supported" >&2
      exit 3
      ;;
      stop|status)
      # No-op
      exit 0
      ;;
      *)
      echo "Usage: $0 start|stop" >&2
      exit 3
      ;;
esac

+++

/etc/rc.local

#!/bin/sh -e
#
# rc.local
#
# This script is executed at the end of each multiuser runlevel.
# Make sure that the script will "exit 0" on success or any other
# value on error.
#
# In order to enable or disable this script just change the execution
# bits.
#
# By default this script does nothing.

exit 0

++

DaveT

..how old is your /etc/init.d/rc.local?
As in: ll /etc/init.d/rc.local & -l initscripts |grep ^ii |fmt -tu

..mine are:
root@d44:~# ll /etc/init.d/rc.local & -l initscripts |grep ^ii
|fmt -tu
-rwxr-xr-x 1 root root 820 May 29  2015 /etc/init.d/rc.local
ii initscripts 2.88dsf-59.2+devuan2 amd64 scripts for initializing and
shutting down the system
root@d44:~#
rir:~# ll /etc/init.d/rc.local & -l initscripts |grep ^ii |fmt -tu
-rwxr-xr-x 1 root root 820 Apr 21  2014 /etc/init.d/rc.local
ii initscripts 2.88dsf-59 armhf scripts for initializing and shutting
down the system
rir:~#
root@raspberrypi:~# ll /etc/init.d/rc.local & -l initscripts |grep
^ii |fmt -tu -rwxr-xr-x 1 root root 782 Oct 15
2012 /etc/init.d/rc.local ii initscripts 2.88dsf-41+deb7u1 armhf
scripts for initializing and shutting down the system
root@raspberrypi:~#

..no /etc/rc.local.


I'm confused...
The timestamp on my /etc/init.d/rc.local is 2015-04-06, I keep my laptop 
fully up to date, as in daily updates, and my laptop isn't even that 
old! And that 'll' whatever stuff comes back with command not found - 
even with sudo...

DaveT

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Re: [DNG] rc.local removed from Debian 9, rly?

[Arnt Karlsen]

On Sun, 19 Nov 2017 20:32:07 +0100, Arnt wrote in message 
<20171119203207.183fc35c@d44>:

> On Sun, 19 Nov 2017 18:52:13 +0100, Didier wrote in message 
> :
> 
> > Le 19/11/2017 à 15:10, Jaromil a écrit :  
> > > hi all
> > >
> > > Can anyone clarify how /etc/rc.local is being removed in Debian 9?
> > >   
> > 
> >      Dunno how difficult it is to re-create rc.local functionality
> > under Systemd dictature, but, when init is sysvinit, this doesn't
> > look like a diffcult problem. Therefore, don't care (-:
> > 
> >          Didier  
> 
> ..looks like we are _the_ /etc/rc.local back-up distro. ;o)
> 
> ..I did a wee razzia, it's been quietly gone for quite a while, 
> maybe since the 2014 systemd coup in Debian:


..like any common razzia raider, I goofed ;o), we still have 
/etc/init.d/rc.local, but /etc/rc.local is gone: 
root@d44:~# ll /etc/init.d/rc.local & -l initscripts |grep ^ii
|fmt -tu 
-rwxr-xr-x 1 root root 820 May 29  2015 /etc/init.d/rc.local
ii initscripts 2.88dsf-59.2+devuan2 amd64 scripts for initializing and
   shutting down the system
root@d44:~# 
rir:~# ll /etc/init.d/rc.local & -l initscripts |grep ^ii |fmt -tu
-rwxr-xr-x 1 root root 820 Apr 21  2014 /etc/init.d/rc.local
ii initscripts 2.88dsf-59 armhf scripts for initializing and shutting
   down the system
rir:~# 
root@raspberrypi:~# ll /etc/init.d/rc.local & -l initscripts |grep
^ii |fmt -tu -rwxr-xr-x 1 root root 782 Oct 15
2012 /etc/init.d/rc.local ii initscripts 2.88dsf-41+deb7u1 armhf
scripts for initializing and shutting down the system
root@raspberrypi:~# 

> ..found it on a live usb in a laptop with a broken screen:
> arnt@d44:~$ ssh -Y root@192.168.1.146
> Password: 
> [root@localhost ~]# dpkg -S /etc/rc.local
> -bash: dpkg: command not found
> [root@localhost etc]# uptime
>  20:10:18 up 195 days,  8:06,  2 users,  load average: 0.31, 0.09,
> 0.03 [root@localhost ~]# mc
> [root@localhost etc]# man rpm
> [root@localhost etc]# rpm -qf /etc/rc.local 
> initscripts-9.25-19pclos2014
> [root@localhost etc]# 
> 
> ..we have _some_ competition... ;o)

-- 
..med vennlig hilsen = with Kind Regards from Arnt Karlsen
...with a number of polar bear hunters in his ancestry...
  Scenarios always come in sets of three: 
  best case, worst case, and just in case.
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Re: [DNG] rc.local removed from Debian 9, rly?

[Didier Kryn]

Le 19/11/2017 à 20:32, Arnt Karlsen a écrit :

On Sun, 19 Nov 2017 18:52:13 +0100, Didier wrote in message
:


Le 19/11/2017 à 15:10, Jaromil a écrit :

hi all

Can anyone clarify how /etc/rc.local is being removed in Debian 9?


      Dunno how difficult it is to re-create rc.local functionality
under Systemd dictature, but, when init is sysvinit, this doesn't
look like a diffcult problem. Therefore, don't care (-:

          Didier

..looks like we are _the_ /etc/rc.local back-up distro. ;o)

..I did a wee razzia, it's been quietly gone for quite a while,
maybe since the 2014 systemd coup in Debian:
rir:~# dpkg -S /etc/rc.local
dpkg-query: no path found matching pattern /etc/rc.local
rir:~# ll /etc/rc.local
-rwxr-xr-x 1 root root 306 Jun  6  2012 /etc/rc.local
rir:~# cat /etc/rc.local
#!/bin/sh -e
#
# rc.local
#
# This script is executed at the end of each multiuser runlevel.
# Make sure that the script will "exit 0" on success or any other
# value on error.
#
# In order to enable or disable this script just change the execution
# bits.
#
# By default this script does nothing.

exit 0
rir:~#

...

..found it on a live usb in a laptop with a broken screen:
arnt@d44:~$ ssh -Y root@192.168.1.146
Password:
[root@localhost ~]# dpkg -S /etc/rc.local
-bash: dpkg: command not found
[root@localhost etc]# uptime
  20:10:18 up 195 days,  8:06,  2 users,  load average: 0.31, 0.09, 0.03
[root@localhost ~]# mc
[root@localhost etc]# man rpm
[root@localhost etc]# rpm -qf /etc/rc.local
initscripts-9.25-19pclos2014
[root@localhost etc]#

..we have _some_ competition... ;o)


~$ apt-file search /etc/rc.local
fai-doc: /usr/share/doc/fai-doc/examples/simple/files/etc/rc.local/FAISERVER

~$ apt-file search init.d/rc.local
initscripts: /etc/init.d/rc.local

Conclusion: initscripts profides the infrastructure to invoke 
/etc/rc.local if it exists, but it doesn't provide an empty /etc/rc.local.


    Didier


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Re: [DNG] rc.local removed from Debian 9, rly?

[Dave Turner]

On 19/11/17 14:10, Jaromil wrote:

hi all

Can anyone clarify how /etc/rc.local is being removed in Debian 9?

I got this from rumors in bitcoin's core development, since I'm not
subscribed to Debian lists. The rumor is confirmed by some online
debates on gitlab and stack overflow.

Can someone point out to the decision process for this?

Following up after the conversation on redis, when we had the elected
Debian leader chiming in here to defend his position and keep deleting
init.d scripts, I still believe this is again "even worst than I
thought" and it is "vandalism".

This will certainly keep playing in favor of our fork since
no-nonsense people will come this way, but is very painful to see
Debian's users are being mistreated to this point.

What is happening, and is a pattern, is that parts of Debian that work
well and are widely used by people are being arbitrarily removed. This
doesn't make Debian "universal" anymore, while betraying once again
its mandate of respecting user's freedom. Noone can trust Debian if it
keeps changing things that work for some, just because of imposing a
new thing that others like. Well beyond and nothwitstanding the
qualities of any free and open source software, Debian is clearly
harming another sort of freedom, the sort that was granted in the free
space we all knew rc.local has always been..

is there any internal discussion about such governance issues in
Debian? is there any hope the current leadership will change and
perhaps repair what this vandalism is breaking?


ciao



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I run debian sid on my laptop. I don't know why it has been done but if 
I've understood what you need to know, this is how rc.local is now at 
the sharp end:-


/etc/init.d/rc.local

#! /bin/sh
### BEGIN INIT INFO
# Provides:  rc.local
# Required-Start:    $all
# Required-Stop:
# Default-Start: 2 3 4 5
# Default-Stop:
# Short-Description: Run /etc/rc.local if it exist
### END INIT INFO


PATH=/sbin:/usr/sbin:/bin:/usr/bin

. /lib/init/vars.sh
. /lib/lsb/init-functions

do_start() {
    if [ -x /etc/rc.local ]; then
        [ "$VERBOSE" != no ] && log_begin_msg "Running local boot 
scripts (/etc/rc.local)"

        /etc/rc.local
        ES=$?
        [ "$VERBOSE" != no ] && log_end_msg $ES
        return $ES
    fi
}

case "$1" in
    start)
    do_start
    ;;
    restart|reload|force-reload)
    echo "Error: argument '$1' not supported" >&2
    exit 3
    ;;
    stop|status)
    # No-op
    exit 0
    ;;
    *)
    echo "Usage: $0 start|stop" >&2
    exit 3
    ;;
esac

+++

/etc/rc.local

#!/bin/sh -e
#
# rc.local
#
# This script is executed at the end of each multiuser runlevel.
# Make sure that the script will "exit 0" on success or any other
# value on error.
#
# In order to enable or disable this script just change the execution
# bits.
#
# By default this script does nothing.

exit 0

++

DaveT

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Re: [DNG] rc.local removed from Debian 9, rly?

[Arnt Karlsen]

On Sun, 19 Nov 2017 18:52:13 +0100, Didier wrote in message 
:

> Le 19/11/2017 à 15:10, Jaromil a écrit :
> > hi all
> >
> > Can anyone clarify how /etc/rc.local is being removed in Debian 9?
> > 
> 
>      Dunno how difficult it is to re-create rc.local functionality
> under Systemd dictature, but, when init is sysvinit, this doesn't
> look like a diffcult problem. Therefore, don't care (-:
> 
>          Didier

..looks like we are _the_ /etc/rc.local back-up distro. ;o)

..I did a wee razzia, it's been quietly gone for quite a while, 
maybe since the 2014 systemd coup in Debian:
rir:~# dpkg -S /etc/rc.local
dpkg-query: no path found matching pattern /etc/rc.local
rir:~# ll /etc/rc.local
-rwxr-xr-x 1 root root 306 Jun  6  2012 /etc/rc.local
rir:~# cat /etc/rc.local
#!/bin/sh -e
#
# rc.local
#
# This script is executed at the end of each multiuser runlevel.
# Make sure that the script will "exit 0" on success or any other
# value on error.
#
# In order to enable or disable this script just change the execution
# bits.
#
# By default this script does nothing.

exit 0
rir:~# 

...

..found it on a live usb in a laptop with a broken screen:
arnt@d44:~$ ssh -Y root@192.168.1.146
Password: 
[root@localhost ~]# dpkg -S /etc/rc.local
-bash: dpkg: command not found
[root@localhost etc]# uptime
 20:10:18 up 195 days,  8:06,  2 users,  load average: 0.31, 0.09, 0.03
[root@localhost ~]# mc
[root@localhost etc]# man rpm
[root@localhost etc]# rpm -qf /etc/rc.local 
initscripts-9.25-19pclos2014
[root@localhost etc]# 

..we have _some_ competition... ;o)

-- 
..med vennlig hilsen = with Kind Regards from Arnt Karlsen
...with a number of polar bear hunters in his ancestry...
  Scenarios always come in sets of three: 
  best case, worst case, and just in case.
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Re: [DNG] rc.local removed from Debian 9, rly?

[Didier Kryn]

Le 19/11/2017 à 18:52, Didier Kryn a écrit :

Le 19/11/2017 à 15:10, Jaromil a écrit :

hi all

Can anyone clarify how /etc/rc.local is being removed in Debian 9?

I got this from rumors in bitcoin's core development, since I'm not
subscribed to Debian lists. The rumor is confirmed by some online
debates on gitlab and stack overflow.

Can someone point out to the decision process for this?

Following up after the conversation on redis, when we had the elected
Debian leader chiming in here to defend his position and keep deleting
init.d scripts, I still believe this is again "even worst than I
thought" and it is "vandalism".

This will certainly keep playing in favor of our fork since
no-nonsense people will come this way, but is very painful to see
Debian's users are being mistreated to this point.

What is happening, and is a pattern, is that parts of Debian that work
well and are widely used by people are being arbitrarily removed. This
doesn't make Debian "universal" anymore, while betraying once again
its mandate of respecting user's freedom. Noone can trust Debian if it
keeps changing things that work for some, just because of imposing a
new thing that others like. Well beyond and nothwitstanding the
qualities of any free and open source software, Debian is clearly
harming another sort of freedom, the sort that was granted in the free
space we all knew rc.local has always been..

is there any internal discussion about such governance issues in
Debian? is there any hope the current leadership will change and
perhaps repair what this vandalism is breaking?



    Dunno how difficult it is to re-create rc.local functionality 
under Systemd dictature, but, when init is sysvinit, this doesn't look 
like a diffcult problem. Therefore, don't care (-:


        Didier 


    BTW, this was the first time I opened the mail browser on my 
all-duty laptop after dist-upgrade (during the past hour) from 
Debian-Wheezy to Devuan-Jessie. Feel good. Not expecting issues with 
rc.local in the future...


 Didier

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Re: [DNG] rc.local removed from Debian 9, rly?

[Didier Kryn]

Le 19/11/2017 à 15:10, Jaromil a écrit :

hi all

Can anyone clarify how /etc/rc.local is being removed in Debian 9?

I got this from rumors in bitcoin's core development, since I'm not
subscribed to Debian lists. The rumor is confirmed by some online
debates on gitlab and stack overflow.

Can someone point out to the decision process for this?

Following up after the conversation on redis, when we had the elected
Debian leader chiming in here to defend his position and keep deleting
init.d scripts, I still believe this is again "even worst than I
thought" and it is "vandalism".

This will certainly keep playing in favor of our fork since
no-nonsense people will come this way, but is very painful to see
Debian's users are being mistreated to this point.

What is happening, and is a pattern, is that parts of Debian that work
well and are widely used by people are being arbitrarily removed. This
doesn't make Debian "universal" anymore, while betraying once again
its mandate of respecting user's freedom. Noone can trust Debian if it
keeps changing things that work for some, just because of imposing a
new thing that others like. Well beyond and nothwitstanding the
qualities of any free and open source software, Debian is clearly
harming another sort of freedom, the sort that was granted in the free
space we all knew rc.local has always been..

is there any internal discussion about such governance issues in
Debian? is there any hope the current leadership will change and
perhaps repair what this vandalism is breaking?



    Dunno how difficult it is to re-create rc.local functionality under 
Systemd dictature, but, when init is sysvinit, this doesn't look like a 
diffcult problem. Therefore, don't care (-:


        Didier

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Re: [DNG] rc.local removed from Debian 9, rly?

[Steve Litt]

On Sun, 19 Nov 2017 17:43:04 +0100
Jaromil  wrote:


> IMHO thinking conspiracy is self defeating,

And yet there ARE conspiracies. Most US antitrust laws are a reaction
to price-fixing conspiracies of the late 1800's and early 1900's.

I don't understand why a conspiracy theory is any less believable
than a lone wolf theory or an accidental mistake theory or an "it just
happened that way" theory.

To fix a problem, one needs to know the root cause. Even to work around
a problem, it helps to know the root cause. The person or community who
starts the process by prematurely ruling out a whole class of root
causes, be that class conspiracy, lone wolf, mistake or randomness, the
person or community is hampered in solving or working around.
 
Steve

Steve Litt 
November 2017 featured book: Troubleshooting: Just the Facts
http://www.troubleshooters.com/tjust
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Re: [DNG] rc.local removed from Debian 9, rly?

[Jaromil]

hi Taiidan

On 19 November 2017 17:11:27 CET, "taii...@gmx.com"  wrote:
>On 11/19/2017 09:10 AM, Jaromil wrote:
>> is there any internal discussion about such governance issues in
>> Debian? is there any hope the current leadership will change and
>> perhaps repair what this vandalism is breaking?
>Am I the only one who thinks there is some kind of conspiracy here?
>I mean why else would literally every distro adopt systemd overnight 
>with zero debate and half the community protesting the change, ditto
>for 
>all the other bizzare choices that have been made recently like this
>and 
>making so many random programs and libs dependent on systemd.



IMHO thinking conspiracy is self defeating,
but debunking facts and documenting them for
everyone to make up their own idea is useful.

there is a fair amount of attention on this narrative
if we manage to keep the noise out, maybe
all camps can reach a better understanding.

I write this conscious that what I wrote
may be considered conspiracy and noise
by systemd hooligans...

lets all avoid turning debate into denigration.
said that, I stand convinced that removing
this way features that are publicly used is literally vandalism.

ciao
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Re: [DNG] rc.local removed from Debian 9, rly?

[taii...@gmx.com]

On 11/19/2017 09:10 AM, Jaromil wrote:

is there any internal discussion about such governance issues in
Debian? is there any hope the current leadership will change and
perhaps repair what this vandalism is breaking?

Am I the only one who thinks there is some kind of conspiracy here?
I mean why else would literally every distro adopt systemd overnight 
with zero debate and half the community protesting the change, ditto for 
all the other bizzare choices that have been made recently like this and 
making so many random programs and libs dependent on systemd.

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[DNG] rc.local removed from Debian 9, rly?

[Jaromil]

hi all

Can anyone clarify how /etc/rc.local is being removed in Debian 9?

I got this from rumors in bitcoin's core development, since I'm not
subscribed to Debian lists. The rumor is confirmed by some online
debates on gitlab and stack overflow.

Can someone point out to the decision process for this?

Following up after the conversation on redis, when we had the elected
Debian leader chiming in here to defend his position and keep deleting
init.d scripts, I still believe this is again "even worst than I
thought" and it is "vandalism".

This will certainly keep playing in favor of our fork since
no-nonsense people will come this way, but is very painful to see
Debian's users are being mistreated to this point.

What is happening, and is a pattern, is that parts of Debian that work
well and are widely used by people are being arbitrarily removed. This
doesn't make Debian "universal" anymore, while betraying once again
its mandate of respecting user's freedom. Noone can trust Debian if it
keeps changing things that work for some, just because of imposing a
new thing that others like. Well beyond and nothwitstanding the
qualities of any free and open source software, Debian is clearly
harming another sort of freedom, the sort that was granted in the free
space we all knew rc.local has always been..

is there any internal discussion about such governance issues in
Debian? is there any hope the current leadership will change and
perhaps repair what this vandalism is breaking?


ciao



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