Re: [libreoffice-documentation] Kenneth Hanson, are you there?

[Kenneth Hanson]

Hi Jean,

I'm doing fine. I got distracted by other issues around that time and have
not started yet. I still intend to work on these, though I will of course
relinquish them if it starts to look like I would hold up publication of
the guide.

--Kenneth


On Fri, Jun 12, 2020 at 7:40 PM Jean Weber  wrote:

> Hi, I hope you are well. I see that you checked out Writer Guide
> chapters 8 and 9 in late April. What is the status of these chapters?
>
> Jean
>
> --
> To unsubscribe e-mail to: documentation+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org
> Problems?
> https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
> Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
> List archive: https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/documentation/
> Privacy Policy: https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy
>

-- 
To unsubscribe e-mail to: documentation+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org
Problems? https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/documentation/
Privacy Policy: https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy

Re: [libreoffice-documentation] Find & replace attributes not working

[Kenneth Hanson]

Toni,

Based on my current understanding, the current names of those buttons don't
really make any sense. Note how the "No Format" button clears both. I don't
think the current help text is any good either.

I would describe the "formats" you can search for as specific instances or
valuations of the "attributes".
attribute -> format a/b/c
color -> auto, red, blue, ...
font -> Liberation Sans, Liberation Serif...
etc.

But this has nothing to do with any normal meaning of the words "format" or
"attribute". So I wouldn't worry too much about the words themselves, and
just describe what the features do. Examples:
- If you want to search for *any* manually applied font, click the
"Attributes" button and check the box next to "Font", then click "OK".
- If you want to search for *a particular* manually applied font, such as
"Liberation Serif", click the "Format" button, then...

--Kenneth


On Thu, Apr 23, 2020 at 12:09 PM Toni B  wrote:

> Thank you for the helpful comments Luke.  I will plan to put your
> suggestion 4 in the documentation.
> Can anyone explain the difference between an attribute and a format in
> "beginner" or "layperson" language?  I don't think I have a good
> understanding.  I couldn't find it in the documentation, but perhaps I
> overlooked it.
> Have an awesome day!
> Toni
>
> On Wed, Apr 22, 2020 at 8:46 PM Luke (gmail) 
> wrote:
>
> > Four comments...
> >
> > 1/
> > To my mind there's a missing piece of information: the definition of (or
> > how to determine) the default font.
> >
> > Is it the Font used by the Default paragraph style (and if so, is it the
> > Family, the Asian Text Font, or the CTL Font)?
> >
> > Or is it something else, like the Default character style (and if so, is
> > it the Family, the Asian Text Font, or the CTL Font)?
> >
> > Or something else?
> >
> > 2/
> > The information callout says:
> > "If you want to find text with any font by name, click the Format button
> > in the Find & Replace dialog of LibreOffice Writer."
> >
> > Since people may read just the callout, should it perhaps instead say:
> > "If you want to find text with any font by name (that is not the default
> > font), click the Format button in the Find & Replace dialog of
> > LibreOffice Writer."
> >
> > 3/
> > Also, reading the text reminds me of why I originally joined the team -
> > to try to write up what I've been learning about what is meant by direct
> > formatting.
> >
> > I've had so little spare time I still haven't made any contribution in
> > that area.  So I wonder if, in the opening paragraph that opens by
> saying:
> > "You can search for text with attributes that are applied either by
> > direct formatting or by styles."
> > - whether the mention of "direct formatting" could be hyperlinked to any
> > documentation that explains what's meant by that.  Or is that an area
> > where I could still perhaps make a contribution?
> >
> > 4/
> > One final small suggestion: in the "To search for all font changes"
> > section, might it be a good idea to add a sentence like:
> > "To search for a specific font (e.g. Times Roman), or a particular font
> > style (e.g. Italic), select "Format..." instead of "Attributes..." in
> > the Find & Replace panel", followed by the "Font" tab in the provided
> > "Search for formatting" panel.
> >
> > luke
> >
> > On 23/4/20 2:37 am, S Shravz wrote:
> > > Glad if my inputs did sort this out in some way.
> > > I haven't referred to this topic in the guide.
> > >   Yes! few aspects are actually confusing for the end user to
> understand,
> > > even I have been changing it to be even more user friendly.
> > >
> > > Have a nice day!
> > >
> > > Kind regards
> > > Shravani
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On Wed, Apr 22, 2020, 9:40 AM Toni B  wrote:
> > >
> > >> Thank you all for the suggestions and research.
> > >> Shravani - I do see the behavior you describe and afterward, the text
> > makes
> > >> better sense.
> > >> As an "end user" I think this behavior is very confusing.  I would
> > expect
> > >> the Find/Replace to work as described in Find and Replace Paragraph
> > >> Styles.  I will have to let this sink in and see if I can find a
> better
> > way
> > >> to describe it for those first using it.  The expectation of choices
> > >> popping up in the Find and the Replace boxes really threw me off and I
> > >> think it may throw others off who are first using the software.  I
> > welcome
> > >> any suggestions or opinions.
> > >> Thanks again!
> > >> Toni
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> On Tue, Apr 21, 2020 at 3:10 PM S Shravz  wrote:
> > >>
> > >>> Hi Toni,
> > >>>
> > >>> I just looked into the steps you have drafted in your first email,
> when
> > >>> looked into online help I found related content in the below link
> which
> > >>> might answer your query:
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>
> >
> https://help.libreoffice.org/6.4/en-US/text/shared/guide/find_attributes.html?=WRITER=WIN
> > >>>
> > >>> The link says "For example, if you search for the Font attribute, all
> > >>> 

Re: [libreoffice-documentation] Re: No contents info in WG6.0 PDF?

[Kenneth Hanson]

Okay. I have no access to the main website. Will you or someone else with
access update this?

Also, I've since checked some of the other guides. Impress and Draw look
okay. Calc Guide on the wiki is missing contents.

Calc guide on the docs website is okay, and also has a different filename
and size from the copy on the wiki. There is also a separate problem, which
is that there are duplicate book entries on the docs website right now,
with the newer entries just being links to files or folders in NextCloud.
I'm sure Olivier is aware of this.

A quick inspection reveals that individual chapters are also lacking
contents, and the first one I opened (Calc Preface) was not exported
correctly at all (just one partial page).

I don't understand the current process by which guides are assembled,
converted, and uploaded. If it were me, I would store the official chapter
PDFs, complete guides, and complete PDFs in NextCloud (e.g. in subfolders
of Published, based on the current naming scheme). This makes it easy to
tell whether everything is up to date, and lets people copy known good
files rather than converting repeatedly, possibly with errors. It may even
be possible to automate some of this (has anyone tried yet?). But I haven't
seen such a thing for current guides.

--Kenneth


On Sun, Apr 19, 2020 at 6:55 PM Jean Weber  wrote:

> Sorry, I meant "sidebar table of contents", which are created when one
> ticks the box for "Export bookmarks" in the PDF Export dialog.
>
> On Mon, Apr 20, 2020 at 9:48 AM Jean Weber  wrote:
> >
> > I've now checked, and it appears that I was misremembering; the
> > website link does not appear to pick up the file from the wiki.
> >
> > As for the lack of sidebar bookmarks, I realise that I never remember
> > to tick that box on the PDF Export dialog. I'll put that on my
> > checklist for future books. Sorry, and thank you.
> >
> > Jean
> >
> > On Mon, Apr 20, 2020 at 8:28 AM Jean Weber  wrote:
> > >
> > > If you know how to replace a file on the wiki, you can do it yourself.
> > > I think the website link picks up the file from the wiki, but if not,
> then Olivier is the person to fix that.
> > >
> > > If/when I’m on the computer later today, I’ll have a look.
> > >
> > > Jean
> > >
> > > On Mon, 20 Apr 2020 at 06:42 Kenneth Hanson 
> wrote:
> > >>
> > >> Any takers?
> > >>
> > >> --Kenneth
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> On Fri, Apr 17, 2020 at 7:01 PM Kenneth Hanson 
> wrote:
> > >>
> > >> > The published PDF version of Writer Guide 6.0 appears to have no
> contents
> > >> > info. (Meaning the contents in the navigation for a PDF viewer, not
> the
> > >> > table of contents in the document.) I re-downloaded from both the
> docs site
> > >> > and the wiki to confirm.
> > >> >
> > >> > When I exported the published ODT as PDF, I was able to view the
> contents
> > >> > as expected.
> > >> >
> > >> > The PDF for Getting Started 6.0 appears to be fine. I haven't
> checked any
> > >> > others.
> > >> >
> > >> > Could someone confirm and correct this?
> > >> >
> > >> > --Kenneth
> > >> >
>
> --
> To unsubscribe e-mail to: documentation+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org
> Problems?
> https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
> Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
> List archive: https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/documentation/
> Privacy Policy: https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy
>

-- 
To unsubscribe e-mail to: documentation+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org
Problems? https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/documentation/
Privacy Policy: https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy

Re: [libreoffice-documentation] Updating Writer Guide from v6.0 to 6.4

[Kenneth Hanson]

Alright. I'll go by what I can find in tool tips and help info, and
otherwise do my best to keep things consistent.

--Kenneth


On Sun, Apr 19, 2020 at 7:05 PM Jean Weber  wrote:

> Kenneth,
> I don't find any notes to myself, other than the general comment that
> the Styles and Formatting pane/deck/whatever-it's-called in the
> Sidebar is now just Styles. Also I suspect there's some lack of
> consistency in the use of sidebar terminology, and in the use of terms
> to described tabbed pages in a dialog. I don't remember what our
> latest consensus is (if we have one) on these topics, and I'm fairly
> sure the Contributors' Guide is no help because it's not been updated.
> (I may get around to updating the relevant bits of it, after
> researching what it should say - but don't count on that.)
>
> Jean
>
> On Mon, Apr 20, 2020 at 6:57 AM Jean Weber  wrote:
> >
> > I'll check, but I don't recall any notes on those chapters. Thanks for
> > the advance notice.
> > Jean
> >
> > On Mon, Apr 20, 2020 at 6:43 AM Kenneth Hanson 
> wrote:
> > >
> > > I'm planning to take the chapters on styles, ch. 8 and 9.
> > >
> > > Jean, if you have any notes on things that need to be changed, I
> probably won't start working on this until later this week.
> > >
> > > --Kenneth
>
> --
> To unsubscribe e-mail to: documentation+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org
> Problems?
> https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
> Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
> List archive: https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/documentation/
> Privacy Policy: https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy
>

-- 
To unsubscribe e-mail to: documentation+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org
Problems? https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/documentation/
Privacy Policy: https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy

Re: [libreoffice-documentation] Updating Writer Guide from v6.0 to 6.4

[Kenneth Hanson]

I'm planning to take the chapters on styles, ch. 8 and 9.

Jean, if you have any notes on things that need to be changed, I probably
won't start working on this until later this week.

--Kenneth


On Wed, Apr 15, 2020 at 6:23 PM Jean Weber  wrote:

> Claire,
> Two chapters in the Getting Started Guide 6.4 need a second review:
> Impress and Draw. They are in the Feedback folder there. (Peter S did
> the first review on them.)
>
> Jean
>
> On Wed, Apr 15, 2020 at 7:00 AM Claire Wood 
> wrote:
> >
> > Yes, I’m caught up with Peter
> >
> > On Tue, 14 Apr 2020 at 21:48, Jean Weber  wrote:
> >>
> >> Claire,
> >>
> >> Updating a Writer Guide chapter from 6.0 to 6.4 shouldn’t take any
> longer
> >> than reviewing it properly as it involves much the same work. No
> commitment
> >> needed beyond one chapter at a time.
> >>
> >> But it’s up to you, and reviewing is certainly needed and very welcome.
> >> Weren’t you reviewing Peter’s updates to the Draw Guide? Have you
> caught up?
> >>
> >> Jean
> >>
> >> On Wed, 15 Apr 2020 at 00:57 Claire Wood 
> wrote:
> >>
> >> > If it’s ok with everyone although I am free at present I would like to
> >> > review the chapters as they’re updated. Although I’ve been furloughed
> in my
> >> > regular job, I didn’t want to say I’d commit to updating anything in
> case
> >> > my situation changes in the coming couple of weeks.
> >> >
> >> > Kind regards
> >> >
> >> > Claire
> >> >
> >> > On Tue, 14 Apr 2020 at 05:51, Jean Weber  wrote:
> >> >
> >> >> For people working on this update:
> >> >> 1) Remember to check the Release Notes for v6.1, 6.2, 6.3 and 6.4.
> >> >> 2) Many minor changes are not given in the release notes, so be sure
> to
> >> >> verify what’s written. If it doesn’t correspond to what you see, it
> might
> >> >> be an error in the v6.0 book or it might be a change in the software.
> >> >> Either way, what’s written needs to be changed.
> >> >> 3) Be especially wary of features that are no longer there or
> methods that
> >> >> no longer work, and thus need to be removed from the book.
> >> >> 4) Some chapters may still have instructions that were originally
> >> >> workarounds for missing features, but the features are now there so
> the
> >> >> workarounds are no longer needed (although they may work perfectly
> well).
> >> >> I’ll try to find time to make a list of the ones I remember.
> >> >> 5) Related to 4), some examples in some chapters are now a bit silly
> (why
> >> >> do something the hard way if an easy way now exists?) and should be
> >> >> replaced by better examples or removed.
> >> >> 6) Don’t believe much of what’s in Ch2 of the Contributors Guide. I’m
> >> >> updating it, slowly.
> >> >>
> >> >> I’m sure there are others; I’ll post again when I think of them.
> >> >>
> >> >> Jean
> >> >>
> >> >> --
> >> >> To unsubscribe e-mail to:
> >> >> documentation+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org
> >> >> Problems?
> >> >>
> https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
> >> >> Posting guidelines + more:
> https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
> >> >> List archive:
> https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/documentation/
> >> >> Privacy Policy: https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy
> >> >>
> >> > --
> >> > Best wishes
> >> >
> >> > Claire Wood
> >> >
> >>
> >> --
> >> To unsubscribe e-mail to:
> documentation+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org
> >> Problems?
> https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
> >> Posting guidelines + more:
> https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
> >> List archive:
> https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/documentation/
> >> Privacy Policy: https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy
> >
> > --
> > Best wishes
> >
> > Claire Wood
>
> --
> To unsubscribe e-mail to: documentation+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org
> Problems?
> https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
> Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
> List archive: https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/documentation/
> Privacy Policy: https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy
>

-- 
To unsubscribe e-mail to: documentation+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org
Problems? https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/documentation/
Privacy Policy: https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy

[libreoffice-documentation] Re: No contents info in WG6.0 PDF?

[Kenneth Hanson]

Any takers?

--Kenneth


On Fri, Apr 17, 2020 at 7:01 PM Kenneth Hanson  wrote:

> The published PDF version of Writer Guide 6.0 appears to have no contents
> info. (Meaning the contents in the navigation for a PDF viewer, not the
> table of contents in the document.) I re-downloaded from both the docs site
> and the wiki to confirm.
>
> When I exported the published ODT as PDF, I was able to view the contents
> as expected.
>
> The PDF for Getting Started 6.0 appears to be fine. I haven't checked any
> others.
>
> Could someone confirm and correct this?
>
> --Kenneth
>

-- 
To unsubscribe e-mail to: documentation+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org
Problems? https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/documentation/
Privacy Policy: https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy

[libreoffice-documentation] No contents info in WG6.0 PDF?

[Kenneth Hanson]

The published PDF version of Writer Guide 6.0 appears to have no contents
info. (Meaning the contents in the navigation for a PDF viewer, not the
table of contents in the document.) I re-downloaded from both the docs site
and the wiki to confirm.

When I exported the published ODT as PDF, I was able to view the contents
as expected.

The PDF for Getting Started 6.0 appears to be fine. I haven't checked any
others.

Could someone confirm and correct this?

--Kenneth

-- 
To unsubscribe e-mail to: documentation+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org
Problems? https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/documentation/
Privacy Policy: https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy

Re: [libreoffice-documentation] User Guides Images

[Kenneth Hanson]

Thanks, all.

Peter and Jean: will do.

1. One outstanding issue is that raised by Robert, regarding the DPI of
screenshots. Actually, I was thinking that existing screenshots look kind
of wonky in my PDF viewer (Okular) at many zoom levels.

I've been thinking mostly about diagrams and annotated screenshots. I don't
know what, if anything can be done about the DPI of the screenshots
themselves. By exporting at 300 DPI, we can at least ensure that the
annotations added to screenshots will be crisp.

Also, if you have everything in a vector graphics file (ODG or SVG), you
can replace the screenshot later with little or no work to fix the
annotations. If we could get all screenshots, annotated or otherwise, into
a folder for each guide, it would make it much easier in the future for
someone to update all screenshots at once.

2. Luke and Martin responded as I was writing the above. I was also
thinking about embedded SVGs myself.

I've had problems with embedding SVGs in LO in the past. I don't know if
these issues have been fixed. This alone might be reason to avoid them.

Martin: assuming we have external ODGs for annotated screenshots, is there
some other reason why exporting to SVG and embedding that would be worse
than PNG?

--Kenneth

-- 
To unsubscribe e-mail to: documentation+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org
Problems? https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/documentation/
Privacy Policy: https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy

[libreoffice-documentation] User Guides Images

[Kenneth Hanson]

Hello all,

I'm looking at the contributor guide and past versions of the user guides
now. I have some questions about images.

1. Are there source files (ODG, SVG, etc.) stored in Nextcloud or
otherwise? I don't see anything for Writer or Getting Started, current or
previous version.

2. Regardless of where past files are stored, where should current files be
stored? I see an images folder for WG6.4, containing only PNGs. Is it okay
to place them side by side, same name, different extension?

3. When exporting the image to be embedded, what format and settings should
be used? My instinct is to use PNG and 300 DPI. The LO Draw export dialog
for PNG also has options "Mode/Interlaced" and "Drawing Options/Save
Transparency".

Thanks,

--Kenneth

-- 
To unsubscribe e-mail to: documentation+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org
Problems? https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/documentation/
Privacy Policy: https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy

[libreoffice-documentation] Access to Nextcloud

[Kenneth Hanson]

Hello,

I'd like to help with the user guides. I have a SSO account but I believe I
need access to Nextcloud. My username is khanson679.

Thanks,

--Kenneth

-- 
To unsubscribe e-mail to: documentation+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org
Problems? https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/documentation/
Privacy Policy: https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy

Re: [libreoffice-documentation] Writing techniques

[Kenneth Hanson]

Sorry for the delay. I've waited a few days for comments, and this took a
while to write.

--

I'll start by addressing the comments I received from Jonathon and Peter.

From your responses, I got a better idea of the motivation for some of the
rules. Specifically, Jonathon mentioned that the numbers for sentence and
paragraph length correspond to a 6th grade reading level, and Peter
mentioned and that non-native speakers do indeed struggle with contractions.

Jonathon mentioned that the issue with translating contractions is not ease
of understanding for translators, but has to do with translating
grammatical structure. This still makes no sense. There is no difference in
the structure or meaning of contracted and un-contracted pairs of words, so
the translation is the same in either case. The only exception I can think
of is subject-auxiliary inversion. For example, the question "Couldn't you
do such-and-such", has a different word order from "Could you not do
such-and-such". I suspect that such language (contracted or not) would
already fall afoul of several other guidelines having nothing to do with
ease of translation.

Finally, I can infer from Peter's comments on "never" that the limits on
sentence and paragraph length are meant to be hard limits.

Peter, you have stated repeatedly that these rules worked well in your
professional experience. But this is exactly the problem. Without knowing
the context of these companies and projects, there is no way for anyone
else to evaluate how they compare with this project. Hence my request for a
concrete discussion.

--

Overall, my primary concerns remain unaddressed. I will restate them now.

1. To what extent ought we to prioritize non-native readers and
translation, respectively? More specifically, when should we adopt rules
that risk making material *less* readable for ordinary English speakers?

The current style guide consists mostly (entirely?) of rules that benefit
all readers. Again, I must apologize because I wasn't following the mailing
list for a while, but to my knowledge there is no precedent here.

2. Are rigid rules appropriate? The current style guide leans toward
"guidelines".

I am still opposed to hard limits on sentence and paragraph length, as a
matter of principle. Less is better even when you are under the limit, 7
short sentences might be better than 3 long sentences, etc.

The bans on contractions and Latin abbreviations would probably have to be
strict for the sake of consistency, so I am not counting them here.

Finally,

3. What are the implications of rule (3), the ban on possessives? What
constructions must be replaced, and with what? I don't think it's possible
to decide on this one without this information.

Thanks for bearing with me,

--Kenneth


On Sat, Mar 28, 2020 at 11:28 AM Peter Schofield  wrote:

> Hello Kenneth
>
> Having worked internationally as a Technical Writer, I understand what is
> required to get the message. I have had personal experience of non-English
> people not understanding apostrophes and word contractions. LO has no
> control over who uses our software and writing in Simplified English avoids
> any questions being asked on what does this mean.
> To the best of my knowledge, Simplified English including my suggestions
> was originally created by Caterpillar who have a huge international
> clientele. It works for Caterpillar and also Airbus, so why not LO.
> Regards
> Peter Schofield
> Sent from my iPad Mini
>
> > On 27 Mar 2020, at 20:19, Kenneth Hanson  wrote:
> >
> > Hello,
> >
> > Sorry to butt in after being absent so long, but I'm worried about these
> > proposed rules.
> >
> > I agree with rules to keep sentences and paragraphs short, breaking up
> long
> > sentences and paragraphs when possible. On the other hand, I'm uneasy
> about
> > rules like Peter's (1) and (2) stipulating maximum numbers of words or
> > sentences. If the numbers are intended as rules of thumb, they should be
> > rewritten to reflect this. If they are meant to be hard limits, it's easy
> > to imagine situations where following such a rule could make the result
> > harder to understand.
> >
> > Second, I struggle to see how rules (3-5) would make translation easier,
> or
> > whether this is a good reason to implement them.
> >
> > Regarding (4), if a translator's command of English is so poor that they
> > cannot understand common contractions, it seems doubtful that using
> > one-to-one replacements would make all the difference.
> >
> > Regarding (5), if anything I think Latin abbreviations should be avoided
> > for the sake of readers of the English version, for maximum
> accessibility.
> > It appears from the wiki history that this provision was already in the
> >

Re: [libreoffice-documentation] Writing techniques

[Kenneth Hanson]

Hello,

Sorry to butt in after being absent so long, but I'm worried about these
proposed rules.

I agree with rules to keep sentences and paragraphs short, breaking up long
sentences and paragraphs when possible. On the other hand, I'm uneasy about
rules like Peter's (1) and (2) stipulating maximum numbers of words or
sentences. If the numbers are intended as rules of thumb, they should be
rewritten to reflect this. If they are meant to be hard limits, it's easy
to imagine situations where following such a rule could make the result
harder to understand.

Second, I struggle to see how rules (3-5) would make translation easier, or
whether this is a good reason to implement them.

Regarding (4), if a translator's command of English is so poor that they
cannot understand common contractions, it seems doubtful that using
one-to-one replacements would make all the difference.

Regarding (5), if anything I think Latin abbreviations should be avoided
for the sake of readers of the English version, for maximum accessibility.
It appears from the wiki history that this provision was already in the
style guide.

Finally, regarding (3), genitive possessives are such a basic component of
English grammar that I worry that circumlocutions would harm readability to
an unacceptable degree, even if this improves ease of translation. No
examples are given, so I don't know what is intended. There are examples of
cases to avoid possessive pronouns already in the style guide, but these
are not contexts in which a full noun (phrase) would be used.

I think I understand the background that Peter is coming from, but I think
this issue requires more discussion.

--Kenneth


On Fri, Mar 27, 2020 at 6:59 AM Peter Schofield  wrote:

> Hello Olivier
>
> Definitely no objections from me. Hopefully, we will then get a standard
> English appearing across all the guides.
>
> Regards
> Peter Schofield
> psaut...@gmail.com
>
>
>
> > On 27 Mar 2020, at 12:32, Olivier Hallot 
> wrote:
> >
> > Hello All
> >
> > If no objection rises, I'll merge the suggestions in the wiki page.
> >
> > Kind regards
> > Olivier
> >
> > Em 27/03/2020 07:28, Peter Schofield escreveu:
> >> Hello Ilmari
> >>
> >> The Style Guide does not cover all my suggestions, mainly use of
> apostrophe and word contractions. These two items do cause problems when
> translating English.
> >> My ideas about paragraphs and sentences are similar to the Style Guide,
> but I have put a number in the requirement. This does help if writers
> follow the suggestion.
> >> Regards
> >> Peter Schofield
> >> psaut...@gmail.com
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>> On 27 Mar 2020, at 10:11, Ilmari Lauhakangas <
> ilmari.lauhakan...@libreoffice.org> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> Peter Schofield kirjoitti 27.3.2020 klo 10.23:
>  After going through the meeting notes (which I could not attend), I
> though that it maybe a good idea to air my views about writing standards.
>  The following ideas come from my experience in working within
> Simplified English rules when I worked for Airbus and Ericcson.
>  1. Paragraphs no more the six sentences long.
>  2. Sentences should only contain a maximum of 20 words, with the
> occasional sentence allowed to be 25 words.
>  3. Never use the possessive apostrophe (for example Peter’s). Rewrite
> the sentence to remove the need for a possessive apostrophe.
>  4. Never use contractions of words (for example: don’t becomes do
> not; won’t becomes will not, and so on)
>  5. Never use Latin abbreviations (for example: etc becomes and so on;
> e.g. becomes for example; i.e. becomes that is).
>  There are many more rules, but the above basic rules are a good
> start. They are designed to make English text easier to translate into
> other languages and that is why it is called Simplified English.
>  Please let me know your opinion.
> >>>
> >>> There is a style guide in the wiki:
> https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Documentation/DocumentationTeamInfo/StyleGuide
> >>>
> >>> Ilmari
> >>>
> >>> --
> >>> To unsubscribe e-mail to:
> documentation+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org
> >>> Problems?
> https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
> >>> Posting guidelines + more:
> https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
> >>> List archive:
> https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/documentation/
> >>> Privacy Policy: https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy
> >>
> >>
> >
> > --
> > Olivier Hallot
> > LibreOffice Documentation Coordinator
> > Comunidade LibreOffice
> > Rio de Janeiro - Brasil - Local Time: UTC-03:00
> > http://tdf.io/joinus
> >
> > --
> > To unsubscribe e-mail to:
> documentation+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org
> > Problems?
> https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
> > Posting guidelines + more:
> https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
> > List archive: https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/documentation/
> > Privacy Policy: 

[libreoffice-documentation] Re: [libreoffice-l10n] comparison list functions Calc and Excel

[Kenneth Hanson]

Dennis,

Sorry for not noticing this message when you first sent it:

which links to two documents:
> https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/index.php?title=Documentation/Public
> ations=next=148497
> <https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/index.php?title=Documentation/Publications=next=148497>
> (archived version, which was moved to third party resources but never
> made it to that new page; @Kenneth Hanson: any reason for that?)
>

I don't quite understand what you are asking about. I checked just now, and
it looks like all of the content of that page did indeed make it to
https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Documentation/Third_Party_Resources.

--Kenneth

On Fri, Jul 12, 2019 at 8:10 AM Dennis Roczek 
wrote:

> -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
> Hash: SHA256
>
>
> Hi Kees,
>
> On 12.07.2019 11:23, kees...@libreoffice.org wrote:
> > Hi All
> >
> > The Calc Guide, chapter "Formulas and functons", refers to a list for
> > comparison of functions in Calc and Excel.
> > Op page 19 it says:
> >
> > However, the majority of functions can be used in both Calc and Excel
> > without any change. A comparison list may be found on the LibreOffice
> > wiki, linked from the Documentation/Publications page.
> Uff, that's the old outdated comparison...
>
> > I can't find a reference on the wiki though. Can there be added a
> > hyperlink in this Calc guide?> If anyone can tell me where this list c
> an be found, I can add the
> > reference in the Guide, if wanted.
> Please see:
> https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Functions_comparison_of_LibreOffice_
> Calc_and_Excel
>
> which links to two documents:
> https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/index.php?title=Documentation/Public
> ations=next=148497
> <https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/index.php?title=Documentation/Publications=next=148497>
> (archived version, which was moved to third party resources but never
> made it to that new page; @Kenneth Hanson: any reason for that?)
>
> So basically we are talking about MSO2013 vs. Calc 4(?) comparison liste
> d at
> https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/File:Excel2013_Calc_Functions_Compar
> ison.ods
>
> Before updating the Calc Guide: I guess we finally should get these
> comparison up-to-date and in a useful visual way.
>
> A few years(!) ago I started a similar page for Apple Numbers - and it
> is still on my todo-list - but well...
> https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Functions_comparison_of_LibreOffice_
> Calc_and_Numbers
> If you look at CONVERT_ADD for example, you see why I do need much time
> as I was analyzing the stuff in-depth.
>
> > King regards,
> > Kees
>
> Best regards,
> Dennis Roczek
> -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
> Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - https://www.enigmail.net/
>
> iQIzBAEBCAAdFiEEhYmMfFabYko4V91Tzj5B/c4qttkFAl0ohpoACgkQzj5B/c4q
> ttnTSg/+Is8IfCJxak8QuyQsE9gRRAMItABU5bTCmpQqOmQa+szEdV9e/bLxbQCM
> a36T6QC8jIe8J5k36vpkQc8Eiq7k0xkjB43yC6aYZbXJ77mar1Rnu+b4hZNm6BAK
> 4Hb7U6AwclLXKIRpMToZfqHw9GzVxg97c4H4ngqbx2MroxBCKKqHebnaU99grnk7
> 5KcRp7W5r1UBZua4dp21r4AvXOrKawIekst6lAHQgrvgl0nl8vrPUqvXNcVDxMKZ
> DSF5VG9XnvYyOjg+P1CIDp25UzEVaQ/YCYBwj/vRU3X6hx1aHpjeMr0rjcM9vTSO
> XfGi/DwpcjG2M422GyBpzmpJjEhGil1l/csl/lEwZXFSSKEIUMiVUcOAazj7re2R
> uQSet8MG8SDOW5ZtDG/ASf+6Ks0kX+1QBOyrEjUXwn1VgYdtsoDKhLi/Ve63HmhW
> XeoCboIFu6C8+dn7CVgKzO5tcCpvCPNxK7hrOOLf8NOJ282OBpYFF7M6sJqXef/B
> h2UzREOkvUnxiAI3r5RsJIwx+ApoH06G3KSFuNF4RnMWpK9MGlTfhsUYmgH4MaeG
> VKHuokHp+aN24nflGpdL6wi2aDZVztLn7fPN8Tg5xYt8UEah2PeHoD8N+iYkgPMi
> K7MDB1W8rSFdDqAWGe1/keRtHqXNUbapvn/u8sWTCSQk3K52PvU=
> =fUFP
> -END PGP SIGNATURE-
>

-- 
To unsubscribe e-mail to: documentation+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org
Problems? https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/documentation/
Privacy Policy: https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy

Re: [libreoffice-documentation] Wiki page "Other Resources"

[Kenneth Hanson]

The idea was as follows. "Other resources" would be links to miscellaneous
wiki pages, while "Third Party Resources" is for links to external sites.
If the names are not obvious enough, I would support changing them.

I was still pondering how to organize things when I got side-tracked by
other things, but you can see what I was thinking at the time on the
Documentation
talk page  and my user
page .

On Wed, Nov 28, 2018 at 1:43 AM K-J LibreOffice  wrote:

> Hi all,
> in the wiki when I'm clicking on menu "Documentation - Other Resources"
> I'm getting this page:
> https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Documentation/Other_Resources
>
> This page is started by Kenneth but never been worked on (Perhaps he can
> tell something about the page). It replaced an other page:
> https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Documentation/Third_Party_Resources
>
> What will happen with the first page?
> Should we change the link in menu as long as there happens nothing at
> the page?
> What should be the content (if it isn't in the second page)?
>
> Perhaps you can discuss it at your meeting today.
>
> I'm cc'ing Dennis.
>
> --
> Grüße
> k-j
>
> Member of TheDocumentFoundation
> https://www.documentfoundation.org/governance/members/
> https://de.libreoffice.org
> https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/
>
> --
> To unsubscribe e-mail to: documentation+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org
> Problems?
> https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
> Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
> List archive: https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/documentation/
> Privacy Policy: https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy
>


-- 
--Kenneth

-- 
To unsubscribe e-mail to: documentation+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org
Problems? https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/documentation/
Privacy Policy: https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy

Re: [libreoffice-documentation] REMIND: Documentation team call is **TODAY** at 19:00 Berlin Time.

[Kenneth Hanson]

On Tue, Nov 14, 2017 at 1:14 AM, K-J LibreOffice 
wrote:

> Very interesting is that the most comments are for 1 or 3 and against 2
> but the voting is for 2.
>

I don't think this is surprising. 1 and 3 are similar, so by forcing people
to pick one over the other you're basically splitting the vote.
Additionally, people who chose 1/3 might feel a stronger need to leave a
comment for exactly this reason.

-- 
To unsubscribe e-mail to: documentation+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org
Problems? https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/documentation/
All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted

Re: [libreoffice-documentation] Re: Wiki cleanup

[Kenneth Hanson]

On Fri, Nov 10, 2017 at 6:39 PM, Sophie  wrote:

> I don't know if it's still true for en_US help, but by the past, the
> *files* contained links to the how-to and to the Calc functions.


 By files, do you mean the in program help files?

Olivier
> should have more info about it, but maybe there is a need to check if
> links are still pointing to the good page?
>

I found at least one bad link on the help wiki
https://help.libreoffice.org/Calc/Statistical_Functions_Part_Two.

Some wiki pages were under "How Tos" and others under "HowTo". I merged
everything under "HowTo", but this one links to a page under "How Tos", so
now it gets redirected.

--Kenneth

-- 
To unsubscribe e-mail to: documentation+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org
Problems? https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/documentation/
All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted

Re: [libreoffice-documentation] Re: Wiki cleanup

[Kenneth Hanson]

I've gone ahead with option #1: user docs are categorized as
"Documentation", following precedent. I haven't yet touched the doc dev
pages.

I've found quite a few orphaned pages (no incoming links), old pages, and
stubs, which I've categorized. You can look at the documentation category
page to get a feel for what kinds of things are floating around. Most
notable among these are the "HowTo" pages, which I moved into a common
hierarchy like the FAQ pages, put in a subcategory of the same name.

--Kenneth

On Tue, Oct 24, 2017 at 11:02 PM, Kenneth Hanson <khanson...@gmail.com>
wrote:

> Hello all.
>
> I'm continuing to work a bit on the wiki, now focusing on organizing user
> docs. For a refresher, see what I wrote in August: https://wiki.
> documentfoundation.org/User:Khanson679/Wiki_cleanup
>
> I haven't gotten much input on this issue, but I'm now leaning against
> moving all such pages under a common parent page. For now at least, I'd
> like to just add them to a proper category, such as "User Documentation".
>
> So, I'd really like to solve the category naming issue for user
> documentation vs documentation development. I see three basic possibilities:
> 1. "Documentation" for user docs, something else for documentation
> development
> 2. "Documentation" for documentation development, something else for user
> docs
> 3. Explicit names for both
>
> Note: One person (wiki username Jumbo444) mentioned
> <https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Talk:Documentation> that there is a
> third logical category, docs for developers, QA, L10n, etc.). They point to
> the French documentation wiki page, which divides its links that way. I
> think this is good idea, but more of a presentation issue -- that is, I
> don't think it would do much good to create a supercategory containing all
> of these.
>
> (1) might be the most straightforward and understandable for most people.
> There seems to be somewhat of a preexisting custom of marking user docs as
> "Documentation". In this case, it would be natural for documentation
> development to be a subcategory.
>
> (2) might better parallel the structure of other parts of the wiki, in
> that "Marketing" is pages for the marketing team, etc. But it also might be
> confusing.
>
> (3) is, well, the most explicit. Presumably both would be subcategories of
> "Documentation".
>
> I can imagine people continuing to use "Documentation" for user docs by
> mistake in cases (2) and (3), but perhaps this is just me.
>
> Any opinions? Any other considerations?
>
> --Kenneth
>
> On Sun, Oct 22, 2017 at 1:35 PM, Kenneth Hanson <khanson...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> On Wed, Aug 16, 2017 at 5:21 PM, Dave <nore...@tasit.net> wrote:
>>
>>> In this context it would be sufficient
>>> to post a notification of the intended changes to this list and if no
>>> objections/alternatives are put forward within a reasonable period of
>>> time, then go ahead.
>>>
>>
>> Thanks for clarifying. This sounds reasonable. I also have a better feel
>> now for what kinds of edits can be considered minor, and what things would
>> be better to check on first.
>>
>>
>>> This approach would have avoided the situation with
>>> the FR FAQ being moved on the wiki, since Sophie could have pointed out
>>> the potential problem Kenneth had not foreseen and saved additional
>>> unnecessary work.
>>>
>>
>> I think it's worth mentioning here that it wasn't so much the fact that I
>> moved the pages, as it was that I screwed up the move in such a way that
>> Wikimedia won't let me undo it. In other words, it was a technical problem
>> that I don't think anyone would have forseen.
>>
>> Because no one has yet fixed this or given me the ability to do so, I
>> still don't know whether the redirects would be okay if the pages had been
>> moved as intended.
>>
>> Nonetheless, I will still be more careful now that I understand
>> Wikimedia's limitations.
>>
>> --Kenneth
>>
>
>

-- 
To unsubscribe e-mail to: documentation+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org
Problems? https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/documentation/
All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted

Re: [libreoffice-documentation] Re: Wiki cleanup

[Kenneth Hanson]

Hello all.

I'm continuing to work a bit on the wiki, now focusing on organizing user
docs. For a refresher, see what I wrote in August:
https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/User:Khanson679/Wiki_cleanup

I haven't gotten much input on this issue, but I'm now leaning against
moving all such pages under a common parent page. For now at least, I'd
like to just add them to a proper category, such as "User Documentation".

So, I'd really like to solve the category naming issue for user
documentation vs documentation development. I see three basic possibilities:
1. "Documentation" for user docs, something else for documentation
development
2. "Documentation" for documentation development, something else for user
docs
3. Explicit names for both

Note: One person (wiki username Jumbo444) mentioned
<https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Talk:Documentation> that there is a
third logical category, docs for developers, QA, L10n, etc.). They point to
the French documentation wiki page, which divides its links that way. I
think this is good idea, but more of a presentation issue -- that is, I
don't think it would do much good to create a supercategory containing all
of these.

(1) might be the most straightforward and understandable for most people.
There seems to be somewhat of a preexisting custom of marking user docs as
"Documentation". In this case, it would be natural for documentation
development to be a subcategory.

(2) might better parallel the structure of other parts of the wiki, in that
"Marketing" is pages for the marketing team, etc. But it also might be
confusing.

(3) is, well, the most explicit. Presumably both would be subcategories of
"Documentation".

I can imagine people continuing to use "Documentation" for user docs by
mistake in cases (2) and (3), but perhaps this is just me.

Any opinions? Any other considerations?

--Kenneth

On Sun, Oct 22, 2017 at 1:35 PM, Kenneth Hanson <khanson...@gmail.com>
wrote:

> On Wed, Aug 16, 2017 at 5:21 PM, Dave <nore...@tasit.net> wrote:
>
>> In this context it would be sufficient
>> to post a notification of the intended changes to this list and if no
>> objections/alternatives are put forward within a reasonable period of
>> time, then go ahead.
>>
>
> Thanks for clarifying. This sounds reasonable. I also have a better feel
> now for what kinds of edits can be considered minor, and what things would
> be better to check on first.
>
>
>> This approach would have avoided the situation with
>> the FR FAQ being moved on the wiki, since Sophie could have pointed out
>> the potential problem Kenneth had not foreseen and saved additional
>> unnecessary work.
>>
>
> I think it's worth mentioning here that it wasn't so much the fact that I
> moved the pages, as it was that I screwed up the move in such a way that
> Wikimedia won't let me undo it. In other words, it was a technical problem
> that I don't think anyone would have forseen.
>
> Because no one has yet fixed this or given me the ability to do so, I
> still don't know whether the redirects would be okay if the pages had been
> moved as intended.
>
> Nonetheless, I will still be more careful now that I understand
> Wikimedia's limitations.
>
> --Kenneth
>

-- 
To unsubscribe e-mail to: documentation+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org
Problems? https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/documentation/
All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted

Re: [libreoffice-documentation] How-tos and tutorials

[Kenneth Hanson]

Tom,

This is of course a great thing, but we already have a link to that website
on the wiki.

Also, "here are some tutorials" is not really related to the discussion in
this thread (apologies for the overly broad subject line). Better to start
a new one in such cases, I think.

--Kenneth

On Wed, Aug 30, 2017 at 3:30 AM, Tom Davies <tomc...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Hi :)
> There are some video tutorials;
>
> spoken-tutorial.org/tutorial-search/?search_foss=LibreOffice+Installation&
> search_language=
>
> Funded by the Indian Government to produce high quality English language
> tutorials and to gradually build-up translations in all the languages of
> India.  In the process of doing the translations people of all backgrounds
> have been raising their IT proficiency through learning Open Source
> software.  The people reading the translated scripts have to achieve a
> certain level in order to get their recording accepted.
>
> It's a project the government in my country, and other funders, would
> reject because it's not based on Microsquish.
>
> Regards from
> a Tom :)
>
>
>
> On 28 Aug 2017 13:06, "Kenneth Hanson" <khanson...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Sorry for the delayed response. Thanks for your answers. I think I agree
>> with all of this.
>>
>> I may tackle organization of existing material of this sort soon.
>>
>> My thoughts on #1 are still on the to-do list. Perhaps someone else will
>> speak up in the meantime.
>>
>> --Kenneth
>>
>> On Sun, Aug 20, 2017 at 2:44 AM, jonathon <toki.kant...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> > On 08/19/2017 02:50 PM, Kenneth Hanson wrote:
>> >
>> > > 2. Should existing files be renamed to reflect the LO version, the
>> > version of the document, etc.?
>> >
>> > Documentation needs to instantly indicate which specific version of LibO
>> > it was written for. It isn't uncommon to come across features that work
>> > in the beta/pre-release version, but don't work in the released version,
>> > and vice-versus.
>> >
>> > > 3. Is there a valid reason to host PDFs from OOo and other sites
>> locally?
>> >
>> > Link-rot.
>> >
>> > If the document is current enough to be listed as documentation, then
>> > hosting it on the LibO site is usually the most reliable way of ensuring
>> > that the documentation is available to the potential user.
>> >
>> > > 4. Should old tutorials and how-tos be discarded if current user
>> guides
>> > essentially cover the topic?
>> >
>> > Archive, rather than discard the material.
>> >
>> > I'd suggest archiving Tutorials, How-Tos, Documentation etc, by major
>> > release number:
>> > * OOo 1.x;
>> > * OOo 2.x;
>> > * OOo 3.x;
>> > * LibO 3.x;
>> > * LibO 4.x;
>> > * LibO 5.x;
>> > * LibO 6.x;
>> >
>> > I'm listing OOo, specifically because there are a couple of
>> > How-Tos/Tutorials/Documentation for them, which, AFAICT, has not yet
>> > been updated.
>> >
>> > jonathon
>> >
>> > --
>> > To unsubscribe e-mail to: documentation+unsubscribe@glob
>> al.libreoffice.org
>> > Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-
>> > unsubscribe/
>> > Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation
>> .org/Netiquette
>> > List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/documentation/
>> > All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be
>> > deleted
>> >
>>
>> --
>> To unsubscribe e-mail to: documentation+unsubscribe@glob
>> al.libreoffice.org
>> Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-uns
>> ubscribe/
>> Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
>> List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/documentation/
>> All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be
>> deleted
>>
>

-- 
To unsubscribe e-mail to: documentation+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org
Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/documentation/
All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted

Re: [libreoffice-documentation] How-tos and tutorials

[Kenneth Hanson]

Sorry for the delayed response. Thanks for your answers. I think I agree
with all of this.

I may tackle organization of existing material of this sort soon.

My thoughts on #1 are still on the to-do list. Perhaps someone else will
speak up in the meantime.

--Kenneth

On Sun, Aug 20, 2017 at 2:44 AM, jonathon <toki.kant...@gmail.com> wrote:

> On 08/19/2017 02:50 PM, Kenneth Hanson wrote:
>
> > 2. Should existing files be renamed to reflect the LO version, the
> version of the document, etc.?
>
> Documentation needs to instantly indicate which specific version of LibO
> it was written for. It isn't uncommon to come across features that work
> in the beta/pre-release version, but don't work in the released version,
> and vice-versus.
>
> > 3. Is there a valid reason to host PDFs from OOo and other sites locally?
>
> Link-rot.
>
> If the document is current enough to be listed as documentation, then
> hosting it on the LibO site is usually the most reliable way of ensuring
> that the documentation is available to the potential user.
>
> > 4. Should old tutorials and how-tos be discarded if current user guides
> essentially cover the topic?
>
> Archive, rather than discard the material.
>
> I'd suggest archiving Tutorials, How-Tos, Documentation etc, by major
> release number:
> * OOo 1.x;
> * OOo 2.x;
> * OOo 3.x;
> * LibO 3.x;
> * LibO 4.x;
> * LibO 5.x;
> * LibO 6.x;
>
> I'm listing OOo, specifically because there are a couple of
> How-Tos/Tutorials/Documentation for them, which, AFAICT, has not yet
> been updated.
>
> jonathon
>
> --
> To unsubscribe e-mail to: documentation+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org
> Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-
> unsubscribe/
> Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
> List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/documentation/
> All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be
> deleted
>

-- 
To unsubscribe e-mail to: documentation+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org
Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/documentation/
All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted

Re: [libreoffice-documentation] Wiki Message

[Kenneth Hanson]

Sure, I can do that.

On that topic though, this sounds like another place to eliminate
duplication. Assuming the files on ODFAuthors are up to date, we could keep
everything there and archive what's on the wiki (like Jonathon suggested
for old user documentation).

--Kenneth

On Mon, Aug 21, 2017 at 3:11 AM, Dave <nore...@tasit.net> wrote:

> On 20.08.2017 12:09, Ilmari Lauhakangas wrote:
> > Here are the templates uploaded by Dave:
> >
> > https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/File:LO_5_0_Chapter_Template.ott
> > https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/File:LO_50_Chapter_Template.ott
> >
> > On 20.08.2017 08:17, Jean Weber wrote:
> >> Kenneth,
> >> I dealt with and uploaded most of the iterations of the LO
> >> documentation template, including the one for LO5. Perhaps I can
> >> answer your question, if you ask it here.
> >>
> >> --Jean
> >>
> >>
> >> On Sun, Aug 20, 2017 at 12:40 PM, Kenneth Hanson
> >> <khanson...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>> Well this doesn't make much sense. I clicked the username on the file
> >>> page
> >>> to get to the talk page, so it is definitely the same.
> >>>
> >>> --Kenneth
> >>>
> >>> On Sun, Aug 20, 2017 at 5:05 AM, Dave <nore...@tasit.net> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> Kenneth,
> >>>>
> >>>> You left a note for me on the wiki message board about the LO5
> >>>> documentation template. Since I have never modified or uploaded that
> >>>> template to the wiki I am unable to respond to your request to review
> >>>> what you suggest are duplicates.
> >>>>
> >>>> Dave
>
> Yes, the wiki certainly shows my ID, but I have no recollection of
> making such a clumsy upload of those files 2 years ago, neither can I
> think of any good reason why I would have done so. The only LO 5.0
> template I use is Jean's draft last modified Dec 20, 2016 07:58 on the
> ODF Authors website. I now wonder how many other little gems credited to
> me are lurking on the wiki. Maybe time to change my wiki credentials.
>
> In any case, neither of the files are the valid current template, so I
> suggest Kenneth replaces one with the current template and changes the
> related links as appropriate.
>
> Dave
>
> --
> Please address any reply to the mailing list only. Any messages sent to
> this noreply@ address are automatically deleted from the server and will
> never be read.
>
> --
> To unsubscribe e-mail to: documentation+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org
> Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-
> unsubscribe/
> Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
> List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/documentation/
> All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be
> deleted
>

-- 
To unsubscribe e-mail to: documentation+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org
Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/documentation/
All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted

[libreoffice-documentation] How-tos and tutorials

[Kenneth Hanson]

I know the focus is on the big user guides at the moment, but I'd like to
start a discussion about the smaller publications.

Currently, some "how-tos" and "tutorials" are provided as ODF/PDF (finished
items on the Publications wiki page, drafts on Wish List), while others are
formatted as wiki pages.

For ODF/PDF files, there is no indication on the Publications page or in
the filename to identify the version of LibreOffice targeted.

In addition, some tutorials area just links to the OpenOffice.org wiki (or
other sites), or to files that have been re-uploaded to the TDF wiki at
some point in the past.

Questions for discussion follow.

1. Is there currently a meaningful distinction between "how-to" and
"tutorial"? If not, I have a partially worked out proposal which I may post
here later.

2. Should existing files be renamed to reflect the LO version, the version
of the document, etc.? The user guides seem to have fairly consistent file
names (in particular recent versions), though I haven't yet come across any
info stipulating a format.

3. Is there a valid reason to host PDFs from OOo and other sites locally?
Or should they be replaced with links to the original page so that users
are automatically directed to the latest version?

4. Should old tutorials and how-tos be discarded if current user guides
essentially cover the topic? I can imagine a gray area where the user guide
is almost but not quite an adequate replacement, in which case the user
guide could be updated and then the tutorial discarded.

--Kenneth

-- 
To unsubscribe e-mail to: documentation+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org
Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/documentation/
All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted

Re: [libreoffice-documentation] Re: Wiki cleanup

[Kenneth Hanson]

One more thought. I have sort of been hoping for more input that I've got
until now. There hasn't been any comment on the issue of user docs / doc
team pages, as well as several later queries. My progress reports are also
an implicit call for feedback. So I'll make it explicit: Any ideas?

--Kenneth

On Tue, Aug 15, 2017 at 8:02 PM, Kenneth Hanson <khanson...@gmail.com>
wrote:

> Well, my assumption has been that these changes shouldn't be
> controversial, but can be reverted if necessary, or corrected by others
> that know better.
>
> Perhaps it would be better to propose changes in advance, just in case. At
> the same time, I'm under a time crunch to finish this during summer
> vacation while I have the time and attention to wrap my head around all of
> it...
>
> Anyway, consider today's additions to the talk page my proposal for how to
> proceed from here.
>
> --Kenneth
>
> On Tue, Aug 15, 2017 at 6:37 PM, Dave <nore...@tasit.net> wrote:
>
>> On 15.08.2017 11:19, Kenneth Hanson wrote:
>> > Update: I've rewritten Documentation/Development, integrating the
>> contents
>> > of Documentation/Easy_Hacks (most of which wasn't, in fact, easy hacks)
>> and
>> > splitting the detailed guides instructions and wish list off into new
>> pages.
>> >
>> > I also edited the guides instructions a bit, but I haven't touched the
>> wish
>> > list yet. Some further refinements might be in order once I address the
>> > latter.
>> >
>> > I've added some todos to
>> > https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Talk:Documentation, if anyone else
>> > would like to help. This is in addition to my previously written notes
>> > about the organization of user pages and doc team pages.
>> >
>> > --Kenneth
>>
>> While your interest in the documentation wiki is appreciated, have you
>> considered seeking the consensus of other documentation contributors
>> before making these changes?
>>
>> Dave
>> --
>> Please address any reply to the mailing list only. Any messages sent to
>> this noreply@ address are automatically deleted from the server and will
>> never be read.
>>
>>
>> --
>> To unsubscribe e-mail to: documentation+unsubscribe@glob
>> al.libreoffice.org
>> Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-uns
>> ubscribe/
>> Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
>> List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/documentation/
>> All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be
>> deleted
>>
>
>

-- 
To unsubscribe e-mail to: documentation+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org
Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/documentation/
All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted

Re: [libreoffice-documentation] Re: Wiki cleanup

[Kenneth Hanson]

Well, my assumption has been that these changes shouldn't be controversial,
but can be reverted if necessary, or corrected by others that know better.

Perhaps it would be better to propose changes in advance, just in case. At
the same time, I'm under a time crunch to finish this during summer
vacation while I have the time and attention to wrap my head around all of
it...

Anyway, consider today's additions to the talk page my proposal for how to
proceed from here.

--Kenneth

On Tue, Aug 15, 2017 at 6:37 PM, Dave <nore...@tasit.net> wrote:

> On 15.08.2017 11:19, Kenneth Hanson wrote:
> > Update: I've rewritten Documentation/Development, integrating the
> contents
> > of Documentation/Easy_Hacks (most of which wasn't, in fact, easy hacks)
> and
> > splitting the detailed guides instructions and wish list off into new
> pages.
> >
> > I also edited the guides instructions a bit, but I haven't touched the
> wish
> > list yet. Some further refinements might be in order once I address the
> > latter.
> >
> > I've added some todos to
> > https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Talk:Documentation, if anyone else
> > would like to help. This is in addition to my previously written notes
> > about the organization of user pages and doc team pages.
> >
> > --Kenneth
>
> While your interest in the documentation wiki is appreciated, have you
> considered seeking the consensus of other documentation contributors
> before making these changes?
>
> Dave
> --
> Please address any reply to the mailing list only. Any messages sent to
> this noreply@ address are automatically deleted from the server and will
> never be read.
>
>
> --
> To unsubscribe e-mail to: documentation+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org
> Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-
> unsubscribe/
> Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
> List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/documentation/
> All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be
> deleted
>

-- 
To unsubscribe e-mail to: documentation+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org
Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/documentation/
All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted

[libreoffice-documentation] Still using libodocs.wordpress.com?

[Kenneth Hanson]

I found references to this on the easy hacks
 wiki page,
but nowhere else. It's login only even for viewing, and Google finds no
further references. Is this still in use?
--Kenneth

-- 
To unsubscribe e-mail to: documentation+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org
Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/documentation/
All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted

[libreoffice-documentation] FAQ status

[Kenneth Hanson]

Several wiki pages make it sound like the FAQ is not fully translated from
French to English. Anyone know for sure? Didn't come across anything like a
progress tracking page.

--Kenneth

-- 
To unsubscribe e-mail to: documentation+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org
Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/documentation/
All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted

[libreoffice-documentation] Math examples

[Kenneth Hanson]

On the development
 page there
is a draft of "math examples". Doesn't look like this made it to
ODFAuthors, but I suspect it should go there. Thoughts?

--Kenneth

-- 
To unsubscribe e-mail to: documentation+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org
Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/documentation/
All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted

[libreoffice-documentation] Publications page download tables

[Kenneth Hanson]

When I started updating this page, I noticed that the table wikitext was
terribly overcomplicated, so I tried simplifying it. Did this just for the
Getting Started guide for now.

I'm not that familiar with wiki markup, so it's possible that I took to be
unnecessary something that was actually important. Someone who knows why it
was written this way might want to check.

https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/WikiAction/history/Documentation/Publications

AFAICT, the only real loss was vertical alignment. Setting style
"vertical-align: top;" on the whole table didn't work, so I just left it
out. CSS padding didn't work either, even just for the heading row, so I
left the old HTML attributes for the table.

--Kenneth

-- 
To unsubscribe e-mail to: documentation+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org
Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/documentation/
All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted

Re: [libreoffice-documentation] Where are the quick reference guides?

[Kenneth Hanson]

No, the filename on the documentation website is:
documentation.libreoffice.org/assets/Uploads/Documentation/en/QR5/Quick-reference-guide-Libreoffice5.x-En.odt

This is different from the "desktop reference cards".

--Kenneth

On Mon, Aug 7, 2017 at 3:07 PM, luca.dagh...@libero.it <
luca.dagh...@libero.it> wrote:

> You mean this page?
>
> https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Documentation/Publications#
> Desktop_Reference_Cards
>
> Inviato dal mio smartphone LG
>
> -- Messaggio originale--
> *Da: *Kenneth Hanson
> *Data: *dom, 6 ago 2017 22:41
> *A: *documentation@global.libreoffice.org;
> *CC: *
> *Oggetto:*[libreoffice-documentation] Where are the quick reference
> guides?
>
> There is a link on the publication website, but I can't find them on thewiki 
> or on ODFAuthors. I think these should be added to the master list 
> ofpublications. Several wiki marketing pages say they are 
> onDocumentation/Publications, but they aren't there.--Kenneth-- To 
> unsubscribe e-mail to: documentation+unsubscribe@global.libreoffice.orgPro 
> <+documentation+unsubscribe@global.libreoffice.orgPro>blems? 
> http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/Posting 
> guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/NetiquetteList archive: 
> http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/documentation/All messages sent to 
> this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
>
>

-- 
To unsubscribe e-mail to: documentation+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org
Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/documentation/
All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted

[libreoffice-documentation] Where are the quick reference guides?

[Kenneth Hanson]

There is a link on the publication website, but I can't find them on the
wiki or on ODFAuthors. I think these should be added to the master list of
publications. Several wiki marketing pages say they are on
Documentation/Publications, but they aren't there.

--Kenneth

-- 
To unsubscribe e-mail to: documentation+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org
Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/documentation/
All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted

Re: [libreoffice-documentation] Re: Wiki cleanup

[Kenneth Hanson]

Olivier,

Thanks for trying to explain this to me. I'm not certain I understand, so
I'll try to confirm.

It sounds like there isn't a concrete plan for the content of the
documentation website, which is why it mostly duplicates the download
options on the main website and wiki right now.

But it sounds like the documentation website is intended to be the primary
source for guide downloads and similar documents. In this case, I think the
next step is to remove the download links from the main website's
"documentation" page, and replace them with links to the documentation
website, help website, and wiki.

Then we can work on the publication website. Again, I'm happy to help with
this, but how do we edit it? The wiki page https://wiki.
documentfoundation.org/Documentation/Guides_Website is incomplete.

As for the wiki, my guess is that in the short term we should leave it
alone, since this page does make it very easy to find everything while the
other websites are in flux.

Moving onwards...

> I don't know who's in charge of the websites or what the plans are, but
> the
> > current situation is a mess...which I'm happy to help clean up if it's
> > something anyone can do.
>
> Thanks for the initiative, much appreciated. No one is actually "in
> charge", pages are created by the community members so everybody is "in
> charge", including removing SPAM and caring on the accuracy of the
> information. That is the way TDF wiki works.
>

I think I understand what you mean by this from reading the the thread
"simplifying documentation". Okay, so no one holds any formal
responsibility. I didn't mean to imply that. (For me at least, the meaning
of "in charge" is loose enough to include temporary volunteers.) What I
want to know is who is working on the website, which does not seem to have
open editing. Based on that other thread, it seems that this would be the
"infrastructure" team. Is this correct?

> Aside: design-wise the doc website also seems rather questionable to me,
> and
> > hard to navigate. Giant text, giant graphical tiles for links, giant
> inline
> > pictures, collapsing content instead of sidebar nav. But that's a topic
> for
> > another time.
>
> Please feel free to suggest another layout/color/design. As said above,
> it was conceived to be a download point for published community
> documents, and not a documentation (contents) website per-se.
>

I have an idea in my head, but it will take some time to spell it out, so
I'll do that in a new thread when I get a chance.

--Kenneth

-- 
To unsubscribe e-mail to: documentation+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org
Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/documentation/
All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted

[libreoffice-documentation] Wiki cleanup

[Kenneth Hanson]

I've started to revise and organize parts of the documentation wiki,
starting with things I think will be uncontroversial. I figure that this is
a good thing to do while I'm new, since it's obvious to me what is
confusing or hard to find, but do speak up if I get carried away.

Two major problems that stick out to me:
1. There is a large but incomplete duplication of content between the TDF
wiki, the documentation website, and the main website. I think there needs
to be a discussion about what should go where.
2. There seems to be two very different kinds of content on the TDF
documentation team sub-wiki: pages for users, and pages for the
documentation team. On the other hand, there is also miscellaneous info for
users scattered around other parts of the wiki.

Currently it doesn't look like it would be trivial to move the all the
users-facing wiki pages to the documentation website, so perhaps as a
temporary solution we could make a separate section or subsection on the
wiki to collect everything together. I'll think about what to name this
hypothetical section and wait for other opinions before I do anything.

--Kenneth

-- 
To unsubscribe e-mail to: documentation+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org
Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/documentation/
All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted