Re: [Dorset] It's been a year in the pipeline.
On 11/09/10 19:35, Andrew Morgan wrote: Now lets get rid of all this spying technology and start treating each other like humans. A noble thought Andrew, but it is precisely because of human nature that we find ourselves in this state. There are humans out there who put precisely zero value on your peace of mind or your physical safety. When those people start to play nice with the rest of us I guess the need for physical and technological policing will be much reduced and we will all live in a much safer society. And whilst I don't like the idea of being spied on by the state or by my peers, I do appreciate that in order to cost-effectively police this country technology has been introduced in pretty much the same way it has throughout every other industry. There may indeed be a better way of doing it, but pulling the plug on every camera over night is unlikely to achieve that. Look at the county where the police, in a recent (admittedly political) move, did precisely that with their speed cameras. There was an immediate increase in speeding offences. I accept many of the arguments about the potential for abuse of camera technology, databases and biometrics, but rarely do I hear anyone state that they have suffered directly as a result of that sort of thing. Almost always, in my personal experience, the people most vocal in this debate eventually reveal that they were ticketed for doing 40 in a 30 zone, and then go on to complain about the cameras being revenue generators for the county, deviously placed, etc. And sadly, in another indictment of human nature, I suspect that hard-hitting TV commercials educating folks to the dangers of speeding have far less effect on the numbers speeding than the fear of punishment. Sean -- music, film, comics, books, rants and drivel: www.funkygibbins.me.uk -- Next meeting: Bournemouth? TBD, Wednesday 2010-10-06 20:00 Meets, Mailing list, IRC, LinkedIn, ... http://dorset.lug.org.uk/ How to Report Bugs Effectively: http://bit.ly/4sACa
Re: [Dorset] It's been a year in the pipeline.
On Fri, 17 Sep 2010 08:25:00 +0100, Sean Gibbins s...@funkygibbins.me.uk wrote: precisely zero value on your peace of mind or your physical safety I'll admit I speed at times. This doesn't mean I put precisely zero value on your safety. As with anything in life I take a calculated risk that something could go wrong. The limits are not based on scientific fact. In reality the 70mph limit was a snap judgement by a government put on the spot. Other limits have more basis and some are just fillers. At 3am when I am the only car on the motorway, that 70 restriction goes out the window. Does that mean I'm not thinking about your safety? Similarly when I see a car on the hard shoulder I will often move to the middle lane. The rules are not hard and fast set and sometimes driving to the conditions is more appropriate than driving to the law. I will agree there are people that don't drive to the conditions. Often though I think its the condition they are not watching, not their speed. As a final point, a bad condition car (tires, brakes etc.) will have as much impact on a potential 30mph collision as doing 40mph in a modern good condition car. Stopping distances etc. taken into account. Remembering that fun TV advert (hitting at 30 has a 80% chance of survival - hitting at 40 has an 80% chance of death). The statistics are interesting if you swap cars around. That old Land Rover, even at 30 has a pretty high fatality rate. That modern small car has a pretty high survival rate at 40. So am I placing less value on your safety just for driving a bigger car? am I placing more for driving a smaller one with pedestrian friendly bumpers? Look at the county where the police, in a recent (admittedly political) move You mean the politicians did something their voters _wanted_ them to do. It's a revelation. (On second reading this sound like I'm having a dig at Sean. This isn't my intention, more to have a dig at our current political position) did precisely that with their speed cameras. There was an immediate increase in speeding offences. In offences or in convictions? And more importantly, what about the accident/injury/death rates? Were people getting from a - b faster and not doing any damage? I accept many of the arguments about the potential for abuse of camera technology, databases and biometrics, but rarely do I hear anyone state that they have suffered directly as a result of that sort of thing. Almost always, in my personal experience, the people most vocal in this debate eventually reveal that they were ticketed for doing 40 in a 30 zone, and then go on to complain about the cameras being revenue generators for the county, deviously placed, etc. 98 on a dual carriageway late at night, mid summer - good visibility dry roads - with no other cars in sight. Bright yellow standing camera. I was more interested in looking at the slip road to my left ensuring there were no cars looking to merge. Taking me to court over the whole thing cost them more than the fine I received. 62 (average over a quarter mile from standing) in a 40 - pegged by a big BMW estate sitting right on my tail. Turned out he had blue lights behind his front grill. Egg on face time. He was shocked I slowed when I entered the 30 and slowed down. More shocked that I justified myself. The 40 was in place because of a near-bye school, which I don't consider a hazard at 00:30. Pavements all had fences to them and a grass verge before the road. Pedestrian bridge minimised the chances of anyone crossing anyway. Well lit road etc. good visibility. And sadly, in another indictment of human nature, I suspect that hard-hitting TV commercials educating folks to the dangers of speeding have far less effect on the numbers speeding than the fear of punishment. Very possibly. Is this because people have got too used to being provided half the facts and knowing the results from the data don't always mean very much? -- Robert Bronsdon -- Next meeting: Bournemouth? TBD, Wednesday 2010-10-06 20:00 Meets, Mailing list, IRC, LinkedIn, ... http://dorset.lug.org.uk/ How to Report Bugs Effectively: http://bit.ly/4sACa
Re: [Dorset] It's been a year in the pipeline.
On 17/09/10 09:35, Robert Bronsdon wrote: On Fri, 17 Sep 2010 08:25:00 +0100, Sean Gibbins s...@funkygibbins.me.uk wrote: precisely zero value on your peace of mind or your physical safety I'll admit I speed at times. This doesn't mean I put precisely zero value on your safety. As with anything in life I take a calculated risk that something could go wrong. The limits are not based on scientific fact. In reality the 70mph limit was a snap judgement by a government put on the spot. Other limits have more basis and some are just fillers. At 3am when I am the only car on the motorway, that 70 restriction goes out the window. Does that mean I'm not thinking about your safety? Similarly when I see a car on the hard shoulder I will often move to the middle lane. The rules are not hard and fast set and sometimes driving to the conditions is more appropriate than driving to the law. I will agree there are people that don't drive to the conditions. Often though I think its the condition they are not watching, not their speed. As a final point, a bad condition car (tires, brakes etc.) will have as much impact on a potential 30mph collision as doing 40mph in a modern good condition car. Stopping distances etc. taken into account. Remembering that fun TV advert (hitting at 30 has a 80% chance of survival - hitting at 40 has an 80% chance of death). The statistics are interesting if you swap cars around. That old Land Rover, even at 30 has a pretty high fatality rate. That modern small car has a pretty high survival rate at 40. So am I placing less value on your safety just for driving a bigger car? am I placing more for driving a smaller one with pedestrian friendly bumpers? You've identified a number of factors that suggest variable speed limits to sensible people, but you haven't identified how you would apply them across the board to everyone. Do we do away entirely with speed limits and leave it to the individual to judge? Driving on a motorway in appalling conditions and watching cars tailgating each other exceeding the speed limit for /good/ conditions might indicate this is a very bad idea. We tend to make judgements based on circumstances (I was late for work officer - I have an important meeting) and not always on common sense or what we suspect is right. What about drink driving? Some people can handle more alcohol than others - do we allow arbitrary limits where that is concerned, based on how much they think they can drink before their judgement is impaired, or on how few people are likely to find themselves in their way when they exceed that limit? No, we draw a line in the hope that it allows most people a reasonable amount of freedom while protecting others from drunk drivers. Same with speeding. Look at the county where the police, in a recent (admittedly political) move You mean the politicians did something their voters _wanted_ them to do. It's a revelation. (On second reading this sound like I'm having a dig at Sean. This isn't my intention, more to have a dig at our current political position) did precisely that with their speed cameras. There was an immediateincrease in speeding offences. In offences or in convictions? Offences, apparently: http://tinyurl.com/2agqsjl [Indepent report from Thursday, 12 August 2010] And more importantly, what about the accident/injury/death rates? Were people getting from a - b faster and not doing any damage? I accept many of the arguments about the potential for abuse of camera technology, databases and biometrics, but rarely do I hear anyone state that they have suffered directly as a result of that sort of thing. Almost always, in my personal experience, the people most vocal in this debate eventually reveal that they were ticketed for doing 40 in a 30 zone, and then go on to complain about the cameras being revenue generators for the county, deviously placed, etc. 98 on a dual carriageway late at night, mid summer - good visibility dry roads - with no other cars in sight. Bright yellow standing camera. I was more interested in looking at the slip road to my left ensuring there were no cars looking to merge. Taking me to court over the whole thing cost them more than the fine I received. Out of interest, what upper limit would you place on that road? Would 100mph be fair? Or 150mph where the car in question was designed for that sort of speed? Or unlimited perhaps, based on the skill of the driver and the effectiveness of the brakes? I'm pretty sure you'd agree that variable limits on that basis are pretty difficult for the driver to understand and the law to enforce. An alternative might be to select a limit that represents something of a compromise taking into account average conditions, average drivers and average cars. Easy to understand, easy to enforce. 62 (average over a quarter mile from standing) in a 40 - pegged by a big BMW estate sitting right on my tail. Turned out he
Re: [Dorset] It's been a year in the pipeline.
On Fri, 17 Sep 2010 10:15:15 +0100, Sean Gibbins s...@funkygibbins.me.uk wrote: Do we do away entirely with speed limits and leave it to the individual to judge? Not quite - but maybe we should have speed limits based on scientific judgement. Limits should also be variable given certain conditions, as they often are on the motorway. Why is the out of town road near a school a 30 at 2am? Offences, apparently: The report doesn't mention the accident rates - though across a one week period its hardly a fair judgement. Always mentioned is the reduction rate of accidents. Is this the camera being put in place or the warning of a dangerous site, that reduces accidents? Out of interest, what upper limit would you place on that road? Maybe we should consider how the isle of man handles national limits? There is no direct speeding offence (on national limit roads) but you can be stopped for driving in a reckless manner. Works over there. -- Robert Bronsdon -- Next meeting: Bournemouth? TBD, Wednesday 2010-10-06 20:00 Meets, Mailing list, IRC, LinkedIn, ... http://dorset.lug.org.uk/ How to Report Bugs Effectively: http://bit.ly/4sACa
Re: [Dorset] It's been a year in the pipeline.
Hi Peter, Can/Should/Will - I was thinking of it as an academic exercise. I am not interested in buying kit. Simono has written the programs. How would one go about measuring velocity of things passing? Take three shots at known time intervals and measure the change in width/height of the moving object? Try and measure distance from a known fixed object such as a lamp-post? It might not be in the same plane. Use position relative to (vertical) fence posts instead of markings on the road? It all calls for powerful ability to pick out items form pictures. Without radar? Perhaps spot number plates and measure their change in size over time. Or get a community of like-minded folks, all with home-brew ANPR on NTP-synced machines, and known lat/lons, then analyse afterwards to give average speed. For a rat-run you may only need one at each end to come up with data for the council. Cheers, Ralph. -- Next meeting: Bournemouth? TBD, Wednesday 2010-10-06 20:00 Meets, Mailing list, IRC, LinkedIn, ... http://dorset.lug.org.uk/ How to Report Bugs Effectively: http://bit.ly/4sACa
Re: [Dorset] It's been a year in the pipeline.
On 17/09/10 10:39, Robert Bronsdon wrote: On Fri, 17 Sep 2010 10:15:15 +0100, Sean Gibbins s...@funkygibbins.me.uk wrote: Do we do away entirely with speed limits and leave it to the individual to judge? Not quite - but maybe we should have speed limits based on scientific judgement. ---8--- There is no direct speeding offence (on national limit roads) but you can be stopped for driving in a reckless manner. That's not very scientific is it? Surely, that comes down to judgement on the part of a police officer. I can almost hear all the people stopped for that offence complaining about a lack of objectivity! Like I said before, variable limits are tough to enforce, and where I have seen them they were enforced with cameras. As much as it grates the only answer is to either drive more carefully (to avoid detection) or pay the fine. I read that 'Mr Loophole' [1], the lawyer who gets the rich and famous off speeding offences with technicalities, recently refused to perform the service for his daughter, stating that she needed to learn a valuable lesson [2]. Perhaps there's wisdom in that story for all of us. Sean [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nick_Freeman [2] http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-manchester-11251125 -- music, film, comics, books, rants and drivel: www.funkygibbins.me.uk -- Next meeting: Bournemouth? TBD, Wednesday 2010-10-06 20:00 Meets, Mailing list, IRC, LinkedIn, ... http://dorset.lug.org.uk/ How to Report Bugs Effectively: http://bit.ly/4sACa
Re: [Dorset] It's been a year in the pipeline.
On 11/09/10 16:38, Peter Merchant wrote: After reading this, and thinking about the cars speeding up our road, I wondered how hard it would be to write a speed camera program for a webcam. I believe there is a phrase about asking can I do this before asking should I do this. Sounds like this would be something similar to the 'community speed watch' scams. If so the results will be: · Most people aren't speeding. · The ones who are are your neighbors. · You'll get bored of it quickly when you realise that you can't actually /do/ anything. Now lets get rid of all this spying technology and start treating each other like humans. (Also a company has had this idea already, they're called (or, were bought by) RedSpeed. Their devices are little better than two or three web cams and a computer running DOS.) -- Andrew. -- Next meeting: Bournemouth? TBD, Wednesday 2010-10-06 20:00 Meets, Mailing list, IRC, LinkedIn, ... http://dorset.lug.org.uk/ How to Report Bugs Effectively: http://bit.ly/4sACa
Re: [Dorset] It's been a year in the pipeline.
I have worked as a highways designer in many local authorities in the London area and sadly, it seems that improvements are made for only 2 reasons: - a serious (or fatal) accident occurred at location, or - a local councilor (or residents' group) is very vocal about the issue, preferably with a petition The reason why improvements are only carried out for the 2 reasons above is quite simple - lack of funds. As there are more and more cuts in local government budgets, I do not see the situation improving. Over the years, I have often been in a situation where myself or a colleague knew of a less-than-ideal road layout at a specific location but where we had no funds to improve it. The worse thing is we quite often know how we could improve the layout, the only issue is lack of funds to actually build it. Traffic officers gather their own data and do not rely on data provided by residents. I have never been in a situation where survey data was passed on by a group of residents, normally they limit themselves to telling us things such as the times the traffic is worse, the kind of wrong driving they see on the road (too fast, HGVs driving on the pavement, traffic not observing correct priorities etc). Their observations help us understand the situation but we always check everything ourselves. I don't think factual data would help a residents' group to get their case ahead with the council but it would probably help you to convince your local councilor, adjoining wards' councilors, residents' group and neighbours to take up the cause and send a petition to the council (from what I have seen in London boroughs, this is a good way to attract funding for a project). From my experience, another reason for a genuine traffic problem not to be given funding is political battles. I have seen many valid traffic improvements not going ahead when a new party got in and basically decided not to give funding to any of the previous projects. So my advice would be to work on this from a multi-party perspective if several parties are represented, or have been represented recently, in your area, or you risk finding yourself a pawn in a political battle. Sad but true, this happens very often (and is very frustrating for everybody involved, including the council officers who genuinely want the improvements to go ahead but are actually powerless when it comes to allocating funding to a project). As for schools, the issue is quite often created/made worse by the parents who park on double yellow lines or other areas where the presence of their vehicles affect the visibility for drivers. So a big thing is education re: why it's important not to park on double yellow lines - they are there for visibility reasons, not for the pleasure of making rules. Another thing is to encourage parents to walk children to/from school, and to share picking up duties with other parents, to reduce the amount of parked vehicles in vicinity of school, therefore improving visibility (speed and visibility being the two main causes of accidents). Having moved to Bournemouth only 3 months ago, I have to say I am quite appalled by the local traffic in my area (Winton). I know London is supposed to be bad for traffic but here, drivers seem to not even see pedestrians, let alone let them cross. Quite often, I find myself having to rush back to the pavement because drivers only pay attention to other road traffic and do not see there is somebody actually crossing the road. London was a lot more pedestrian friendly, I think a lot of educating of drivers regarding pedestrians could be done here. Of course, money is needed for that and with all the current cuts, this is probably not going to happen... On 12/09/2010, Dan Jones ldanto.jo...@gmail.com wrote: On 12 September 2010 11:56, jr jr4...@gmail.com wrote: On 12 September 2010 11:42, Robert Bronsdon reash...@gmail.com wrote: It gets the public accustomed to collecting evidence, dubious accuracy. against their peers. It makes people accustomed, to aiding in the prosecution of their peers, in the process of 'potential crimes'. It also makes people accustomed to remote monitoring of their peers, by their peers. If I can monitor you-or-you, then the police can do it just fine. this sort of already happened. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/6108496.stm http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_surveillance#United_Kingdom The Police have been training a select group of residents in Chideock to use Gatsos. Issue there being is that theres a protest group in Chideock attempting to get the A35 down-rated to a B road and traffic restricted. Giving them the ability to sit with a speed gun and wax lyrical about the need for the road to be down-rated. Not the greatest plan in the world, especially when you let vigilante group get involved. ~Dan -- Next meeting: Bournemouth? TBD, Wednesday 2010-10-06 20:00 Meets, Mailing list, IRC, LinkedIn, ... http://dorset.lug.org.uk/ How to
Re: [Dorset] It's been a year in the pipeline.
On Sat, 11 Sep 2010 16:38:16 +0100, Peter Merchant madsmad...@netscape.net wrote: After reading this, and thinking about the cars speeding up our road, I wondered how hard it would be to write a speed camera program for a webcam. It wouldn't be very hard at all. However, I can't say I like the idea of vigilant policing. -- Robert Bronsdon -- Next meeting: Bournemouth? TBD, Wednesday 2010-10-06 20:00 Meets, Mailing list, IRC, LinkedIn, ... http://dorset.lug.org.uk/ How to Report Bugs Effectively: http://bit.ly/4sACa
Re: [Dorset] It's been a year in the pipeline.
On 12/09/10 09:35, Robert Bronsdon wrote: On Sat, 11 Sep 2010 16:38:16 +0100, Peter Merchant madsmad...@netscape.net wrote: After reading this, and thinking about the cars speeding up our road, I wondered how hard it would be to write a speed camera program for a webcam. It wouldn't be very hard at all. However, I can't say I like the idea of vigilant policing. http://www.radarlux.co.uk/products.htm The locals here (parish council - move them around ) use this type of thing to make the drivers think - take the switched output and trigger a camera and bob is your proverbail. Si -- Next meeting: Bournemouth? TBD, Wednesday 2010-10-06 20:00 Meets, Mailing list, IRC, LinkedIn, ... http://dorset.lug.org.uk/ How to Report Bugs Effectively: http://bit.ly/4sACa
Re: [Dorset] It's been a year in the pipeline.
On Sun, 12 Sep 2010 10:36:37 +0100, Sean Gibbins s...@funkygibbins.me.uk wrote: It's not the same as sending Charles Bronson after them, is it? ;-) Slippery slope -- Robert Bronsdon -- Next meeting: Bournemouth? TBD, Wednesday 2010-10-06 20:00 Meets, Mailing list, IRC, LinkedIn, ... http://dorset.lug.org.uk/ How to Report Bugs Effectively: http://bit.ly/4sACa
Re: [Dorset] It's been a year in the pipeline.
On 12/09/10 10:54, Robert Bronsdon wrote: On Sun, 12 Sep 2010 10:36:37 +0100, Sean Gibbins s...@funkygibbins.me.uk wrote: It's not the same as sending Charles Bronson after them, is it? ;-) Slippery slope No more so than standing on a street watching the traffic and thinking that a number of the cars going past are going too fast. It's just using technology to automate that process, gain (hopefully) accurate readings and thereby quantify the extent of the problem. I can't see where that particular 'slippery slope' is taking us, but would be happy to acknowledge your point if you can provide an example of where it might lead. Sean -- music, film, comics, books, rants and drivel: www.funkygibbins.me.uk -- Next meeting: Bournemouth? TBD, Wednesday 2010-10-06 20:00 Meets, Mailing list, IRC, LinkedIn, ... http://dorset.lug.org.uk/ How to Report Bugs Effectively: http://bit.ly/4sACa
Re: [Dorset] It's been a year in the pipeline.
On Sun, 12 Sep 2010 11:07:36 +0100, Sean Gibbins s...@funkygibbins.me.uk wrote: I can't see where that particular 'slippery slope' is taking us, but would be happy to acknowledge your point if you can provide an example of where it might lead. It gets the public accustomed to collecting evidence, dubious accuracy. against their peers. (At this point I would like to define a crime as something which harms someone (very brief and there are pitfalls). Speeding does not harm people. Driving into someone at speed may harm them. Which brings my feelings of speed limits etc. in the fray) It makes people accustomed, to aiding in the prosecution of their peers, in the process of 'potential crimes'. It also makes people accustomed to remote monitoring of their peers, by their peers. If I can monitor you-or-you, then the police can do it just fine. -- Robert Bronsdon -- Next meeting: Bournemouth? TBD, Wednesday 2010-10-06 20:00 Meets, Mailing list, IRC, LinkedIn, ... http://dorset.lug.org.uk/ How to Report Bugs Effectively: http://bit.ly/4sACa
Re: [Dorset] It's been a year in the pipeline.
On 12 September 2010 11:42, Robert Bronsdon reash...@gmail.com wrote: It gets the public accustomed to collecting evidence, dubious accuracy. against their peers. It makes people accustomed, to aiding in the prosecution of their peers, in the process of 'potential crimes'. It also makes people accustomed to remote monitoring of their peers, by their peers. If I can monitor you-or-you, then the police can do it just fine. this sort of already happened. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/6108496.stm http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_surveillance#United_Kingdom -- regards, jr. time flies like an arrow, fruit flies like a banana. -- Next meeting: Bournemouth? TBD, Wednesday 2010-10-06 20:00 Meets, Mailing list, IRC, LinkedIn, ... http://dorset.lug.org.uk/ How to Report Bugs Effectively: http://bit.ly/4sACa
Re: [Dorset] It's been a year in the pipeline.
It's very touching how people trust the police. And very anti-social how they don't trust anybody else. Such a society really is toast. Simono On Sun, 2010-09-12 at 11:56 +0100, jr wrote: On 12 September 2010 11:42, Robert Bronsdon reash...@gmail.com wrote: It gets the public accustomed to collecting evidence, dubious accuracy. against their peers. It makes people accustomed, to aiding in the prosecution of their peers, in the process of 'potential crimes'. It also makes people accustomed to remote monitoring of their peers, by their peers. If I can monitor you-or-you, then the police can do it just fine. this sort of already happened. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/6108496.stm http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_surveillance#United_Kingdom -- Next meeting: Bournemouth? TBD, Wednesday 2010-10-06 20:00 Meets, Mailing list, IRC, LinkedIn, ... http://dorset.lug.org.uk/ How to Report Bugs Effectively: http://bit.ly/4sACa
Re: [Dorset] It's been a year in the pipeline.
On Sun, 12 Sep 2010 12:03:47 +0100, Simon O'Riordan voluntar...@btopenworld.com wrote: It's very touching how people trust the police. And very anti-social how they don't trust anybody else. Such a society really is toast. I like to think I trust the police as much as I trust anybody else - at the end of the day they are 'anybody' else. My real problem with surveillance as such is I would much prefer police officers on the street, not sat watching TV screens. I'd prefer an officer driving down the M3 not sat in a room waiting for a letter to come through telling him I've been speeding. Active policing does reduce crime. Passive policing catches criminals once the crime has happened. Comminities would be better off spending their time improving road conditions around dangerous areas and not in just trying to catch the people that cause a problem. Do people speed past the school? What can be done to slow them down? -- Robert Bronsdon -- Next meeting: Bournemouth? TBD, Wednesday 2010-10-06 20:00 Meets, Mailing list, IRC, LinkedIn, ... http://dorset.lug.org.uk/ How to Report Bugs Effectively: http://bit.ly/4sACa
Re: [Dorset] It's been a year in the pipeline.
On 12 September 2010 12:03, Simon O'Riordan voluntar...@btopenworld.com wrote: Such a society really is toast. Amen to that. -- regards, jr. time flies like an arrow, fruit flies like a banana. -- Next meeting: Bournemouth? TBD, Wednesday 2010-10-06 20:00 Meets, Mailing list, IRC, LinkedIn, ... http://dorset.lug.org.uk/ How to Report Bugs Effectively: http://bit.ly/4sACa
Re: [Dorset] It's been a year in the pipeline.
On 12/09/10 12:10, Robert Bronsdon wrote: Do people speed past the school? What can be done to slow them down? Bung a camera outside and send them a hefty fine? Believe me, it works with at least some of the population - a friend was caught by a camera, fined and had the option of attending a course or accepting the points on his licence. He went for the former and it made him think about the consequences of speeding, so it seems education has a part to play as well as punishment for transgressions. He also learned that the speed cameras in county he was caught in do not generate revenue for the council, but fund road safety initiatives (no, not more cameras), and as such felt he had been fairly treated. He would not have attended that course voluntarily, despite the fact he is a bright, decent bloke and generally favours a bike over his car for health and ecological reasons. Now, extend that to the many lazy, poorly educated people who think they are already excellent drivers and I think you can see that all the right-on campaigns in the world are not going to encourage them to slow down. I take your point about surveillance society and people snooping on their peers too, but I think there is a massive gap between any ideal and what we currently have. To bridge that gap we would need to invest massive amounts of money in policing and education, something very few politicians are prepared to do, not least because tax payers would not be prepared to accept the financial burden. In the meantime, if people are tearing up and down the street where your kids play and you can't get the police or council to take notice, I can see a case for presenting evidence to them to encourage them to collect their own evidence and then address the issue through the correct channels, if indeed there is a case for it. I am certainly not suggesting that vigilantes seek out the offenders and punish them on the basis of evidence they have collected, dubious or otherwise. Sean -- music, film, comics, books, rants and drivel: www.funkygibbins.me.uk -- Next meeting: Bournemouth? TBD, Wednesday 2010-10-06 20:00 Meets, Mailing list, IRC, LinkedIn, ... http://dorset.lug.org.uk/ How to Report Bugs Effectively: http://bit.ly/4sACa
Re: [Dorset] It's been a year in the pipeline.
On Sun, 12 Sep 2010 12:40:50 +0100, Sean Gibbins s...@funkygibbins.me.uk wrote: On 12/09/10 12:10, Robert Bronsdon wrote: Do people speed past the school? What can be done to slow them down? Bung a camera outside and send them a hefty fine? But you've not stopped them speeding. You've only caught them once the crime has been committed. I'm not the biggest fan of them but speed humps force people to slow, maybe humps that can be moved out of the way during times where children and uncontrollable people are not near the road. What about making the visibility in the area better so should someone be in the road, it is easier to spot them and take evasive action (this doesn't stop the speed per se. but it does stop the negative consequences of speeding). What about trying to direct traffic around the school in the first place? I understand this one is a case of large investment nowadays. What about new schools though, can they be placed where people don't have to be near the big fast road. Believe me, it works with at least some of the population And for every person it works with, it causes another person to lose faith in the legal system. a friend was caught by a camera, fined and had the option of attending a course or accepting the points on his licence. These courses annoy me. Mainly because myself and a friend were caught speeding within three weeks of each other, coincidentally. I was caught on open Motorway at 10pm, no other cars in sight. He was caught in a village at around 15:30. Who gets offered the awareness course, the person who had only himself to harm in a freak accident, or the one stopping himself having reaction time around children? That isn't to say education is a good idea. But it feels alot like my friend got let-off with a slap on the wrist and a stern talking too when I argue he was doing the more dangerous act. I take your point about surveillance society and people snooping on their peers too, but I think there is a massive gap between any ideal and what we currently have. Sadly yes - I am an idealist and can see what I'd like to have in place. I lack the how to get there. In the meantime, if people are tearing up and down the street where your kids play and you can't get the police or council to take notice Maybe this is the problem. We are unable to make the police/council take notice. Should the communication channels be better? Would more active policing allow the police to see the area in question? I am certainly not suggesting that vigilantes seek out the offendersand punish them on the basis of evidence they have collected, dubiousor otherwise. Of course not. Though would you not think less/gossip about the guy 3 doors up in his fancy car if you caught him repeatedly on your system. What about Ms Smith the busy body up the road? And I am not saying the slippery slope has to be followed. In many cases it doesn't happen, people often find the safe path around it. I'd just prefer not to make people walk along the precipice in the first place. -- Robert Bronsdon -- Next meeting: Bournemouth? TBD, Wednesday 2010-10-06 20:00 Meets, Mailing list, IRC, LinkedIn, ... http://dorset.lug.org.uk/ How to Report Bugs Effectively: http://bit.ly/4sACa
Re: [Dorset] It's been a year in the pipeline.
On 12 September 2010 11:56, jr jr4...@gmail.com wrote: On 12 September 2010 11:42, Robert Bronsdon reash...@gmail.com wrote: It gets the public accustomed to collecting evidence, dubious accuracy. against their peers. It makes people accustomed, to aiding in the prosecution of their peers, in the process of 'potential crimes'. It also makes people accustomed to remote monitoring of their peers, by their peers. If I can monitor you-or-you, then the police can do it just fine. this sort of already happened. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/6108496.stm http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_surveillance#United_Kingdom The Police have been training a select group of residents in Chideock to use Gatsos. Issue there being is that theres a protest group in Chideock attempting to get the A35 down-rated to a B road and traffic restricted. Giving them the ability to sit with a speed gun and wax lyrical about the need for the road to be down-rated. Not the greatest plan in the world, especially when you let vigilante group get involved. ~Dan -- Next meeting: Bournemouth? TBD, Wednesday 2010-10-06 20:00 Meets, Mailing list, IRC, LinkedIn, ... http://dorset.lug.org.uk/ How to Report Bugs Effectively: http://bit.ly/4sACa
Re: [Dorset] It's been a year in the pipeline.
On Mon, 2010-09-06 at 12:57 +0100, Simon O'Riordan wrote: But I've finally got off my butt and written it. Linux Security Camera is the name of the ftp directory I keep my linux version of the Vision Master security webcam suite in. The design is simple and it is easy to download and configure for use with a Linux platform. You WILL need to make sure OpenCV libraries are installed (in synaptic typically), then put the four files into a common directory and run from the command line using mono... After reading this, and thinking about the cars speeding up our road, I wondered how hard it would be to write a speed camera program for a webcam. Peter -- Next meeting: Bournemouth? TBD, Wednesday 2010-10-06 20:00 Meets, Mailing list, IRC, LinkedIn, ... http://dorset.lug.org.uk/ How to Report Bugs Effectively: http://bit.ly/4sACa
